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quanganhct [734bf49a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.115.75.244.154] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 hi 06:06:21 anyone please telll me which library I need to use to do 06:06:33 (resize image ...) 06:06:36 please 06:06:57 lispbuilder-sdl, lispbuilder-sdl-image 06:07:06 do not support such feature 06:07:40 cl-gd perhaps 06:08:23 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08:30 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:17 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:25 I google and i found nothing like that 06:12:03 please take a look at this 06:12:03 http://cliki.net/cl-gd 06:12:04 http://blog.vjeux.com/2011/lisp/lisp-chaining-operator.html 06:12:20 (progn (defvar tmp (image "in.png")) (setf tmp (resize tmp 200 100)) (setf tmp (erode tmp)) (setf tmp (save tmp "out.jpg")) tmp) 06:12:33 I want to do something like that 06:13:11 (resize tmp 200 100) 06:13:20 why would that be in sdl? you want an image manipulation library. 06:13:31 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:14:51 sdl-image can load/save various formats and sdl-gfx supports some scaling operations, but I don't remember about a cl library wrapping all that functionality.. but indeed, gd is usually more common for this and is commonly used as part of server-side image manipulation/generation 06:14:52 opticl has such a thing. http://www.cyrusharmon.org/static/opticl-examples/opticl-examples.xhtml (resize-image *truck-image* 200 300) 06:15:02 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:15:26 also, you could write your code as (save (erode (resize (image "in.png") 200 100)) "out.jpg"), no need for that macrology. 06:18:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 06:18:34 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:36 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:22:02 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:22:25 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 06:22:30 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 06:23:18 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 06:26:15 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 06:28:35 sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.240.83] has joined #lisp 06:29:24 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-228-46.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:38 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-228-46.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:42 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 06:31:29 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:32:07 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:33:01 Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has joined #lisp 06:33:21 DrForr_ [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:25 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:38:08 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:38:20 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 06:39:11 -!- yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-54-241-122-161.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40:03 yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-54-241-122-161.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:39 anyone having trouble with bordeaux-threads:make-thread coming up undefined after the latest quicklisp update? 06:43:02 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:25 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:11 fisxoj: i have seen that sometimes, i think there is some asdf dependency problem in bordeaux-threads. when i have the issue, it is usually fixed by a recompile 06:44:38 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 06:44:47 H4ns, good to hear. I imagined it was something like that, just haven't had to do that with quicklisp before 06:45:51 sure enough, reinstalling worked 06:45:55 thank you 06:46:29 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:47:11 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 06:48:39 -!- r126l [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:42 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:49:20 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:42 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 06:50:38 r126l [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 06:57:58 robs [~robs@37.244.134.195] has joined #lisp 06:58:46 Longlius [~quassel@68.170.235.238] has joined #lisp 07:05:44 -!- robs [~robs@37.244.134.195] has quit [Quit: robs] 07:05:54 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:11:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12:05 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:16:38 -!- cafaro_ [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:17:48 cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has joined #lisp 07:17:49 -!- cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:49 cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has joined #lisp 07:20:54 jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:22:42 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.113] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-42.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:06 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-42.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:27:32 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 07:28:19 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:29 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 07:31:36 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Client Quit] 07:33:00 tg1 [~tg@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 07:33:21 -!- guyal [~guyal@174-143-244-209.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:33:22 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:34:25 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@106.51.121.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:35:09 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.209] has joined #lisp 07:36:28 anyone know how to insert the value of a lisp variable into parenscript? 07:36:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:37:09 -!- rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:37:36 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:37:52 rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 fisxoj: (lisp var) I think 07:40:24 too easy :) thank you 07:40:57 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.87] has joined #lisp 07:41:40 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:59 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:46:37 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:47:20 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:45 -!- ianmcorvidae is now known as mian 07:50:09 -!- mian is now known as ianmcorvidae 07:50:14 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:52:35 robs [~robs@37.244.134.195] has joined #lisp 07:55:16 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 07:55:36 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 07:58:56 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:01:52 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:21 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:44 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ] 08:10:50 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 08:13:21 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-141-183.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:13:42 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.235] has joined #lisp 08:14:08 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 08:15:33 Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.246.129] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:19:16 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 08:20:37 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 08:23:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:24:22 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 08:25:36 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:30:44 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:56 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 08:40:24 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:42:53 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:44:16 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 08:44:25 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:44:56 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:13 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:37 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:57 waveman [~tim@CPE-121-216-23-234.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:49:42 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:45 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 08:53:51 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:54:15 -!- waveman [~tim@CPE-121-216-23-234.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:54:29 waveman [~tim@CPE-121-216-23-234.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:56:44 benny [~user@i577A8F1D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:02:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:01 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:06:03 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07:31 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.240.83] has left #lisp 09:12:59 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:38 LAMMJohnson [~john@host217-36-223-230.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:01 anyone got a link for comp.lang.lisp archives? 1997-1998 would do for now. 09:17:46 nan_: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/comp.lang.lisp 09:17:59 then click the filter button to filter it to 1997-1998 09:18:40 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:20:59 nan_: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ (take a look even here.) 09:21:59 spiderweb: i tried google groups but it somehow gives me totally unrelated results 09:23:36 nan_: what are you looking for? 09:23:56 nan_: sorry... https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/about 09:25:38 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 09:26:04 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:50 spiderweb: i am trying to find the complete discussion named "Object IDs are bad" "Object IDs are bad" it looks like an interesting discussion yet, i failed to locate the whole thread 09:27:18 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 09:27:46 What was the gist of it, from what you saw? 09:27:54 pnpuff: that did it! *cheers thanks 09:28:53 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/index/browse_frm/month/1997-05?_done=/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/month/1997-05?&&pli=1# 09:29:07 cool 09:29:45 -!- nawk [~nawk@CPE0018e7e66445-CM602ad08618e3.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:29:46 nawk [~nawk@unaffiliated/nawk] has joined #lisp 09:29:50 substitute: it was about lisp and c++ (and especially STL), since my background is c++ and there are some interesting figures there 09:29:56 myx [~myx@pppoe-213-12-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 09:31:58 nan_, that link maybe is what u'r lookin' for 09:32:51 borodust: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/about did it thanks :) 09:33:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:33:37 substitute: also i wanted to know what made Stephanov mad :) 09:34:00 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:41:09 does anyone know of good methods for array subscripting? the best i have found this far is https://github.com/tpapp/cl-num-utils/blob/master/src/sub.lisp 09:41:25 but i don't know how efficient it is 09:41:50 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:43:27 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 09:45:34 bitonic [~user@109.116.138.80] has joined #lisp 09:48:18 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.209] has quit [K-Lined] 09:49:26 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 09:50:08 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:50:12 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:51:45 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 09:54:08 hjlee [~hjlee@218.236.65.240] has joined #lisp 09:54:50 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:54:55 What's wrong with aref? 09:55:44 Ah. You want to take a subregion, not to subscript the array. 09:55:57 Have you read about displaced arrays? 09:57:13 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:02 -!- waveman [~tim@CPE-121-216-23-234.lnse1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:01:15 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08:19 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 10:10:08 Oh, i was right, it is a great discussion, thanks for the links everyone. 10:20:00 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [K-Lined] 10:20:44 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 10:24:11 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:25:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:25:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:26:47 Zhivago: sure. but i don't want a view into the original array 10:26:54 i want a copy 10:27:47 is there a better way to do: (loop for i from 0 to 80 do (setf (aref *s* (nth-value 0 (truncate i 9)) (nth-value 1 (truncate i 9))) i)) ? 10:28:14 ie the 2 dim array with values 0 to 80. 10:28:44 with python's numpy you can just alter the shape, which is less labor intensive 10:29:11 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.246.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:30:00 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:30:49 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 10:31:42 hmm, apparently one can use ajust-array to reshape an array 10:32:31 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:33:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 10:36:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-noylmtwvtvrbzvrg] has joined #lisp 10:36:35 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-noylmtwvtvrbzvrg] has quit [Changing host] 10:36:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:37:18 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:37:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:38:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:38:25 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:36 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:17 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 it won't let one change the rank. bummer 10:41:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:41:42 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:42:56 faheem: what about (loop for i to 80 do (setf (row-major-aref *s*) i))? 10:43:10 assuming it's a an array of 9 by 9 10:43:17 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:38 stassats: that looks better 10:43:45 (row-major-aref *s* i) 10:44:22 (loop for i below (array-total-size *s*) do (setf (row-major-aref *s* i) i)) 10:46:03 stassats: that looks good, thanks 10:47:04 what would it mean to change rank? what will the newly formed elements be filled with? 10:48:07 stassats: i mean convert a 1 dim array to a 2 dim array 10:48:47 well, you can use displaced arrays 10:49:13 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 10:49:25 stassats: in python one can do numpy.reshape(numpy.array(range(81)), (9,9)) for example 10:50:35 that's not python, that's numpy 10:50:51 so, you can write numly and add reshape to it 10:50:51 stassats: well, displaced arrays share space, don't they 10:50:58 they do 10:51:24 stassats: hmm. how would one do this? using adjust-array or make-array? 10:51:42 -!- LAMMJohnson [~john@host217-36-223-230.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:43 do what? 10:52:06 stassats: convert a 1 dim array to a 2 dim array 10:52:36 the thing i showed with r-m-a 10:53:01 but why do you ever need to do that? 10:53:22 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 10:53:50 stassats: ok, but you mentioned using displaced arrays for this, if i understood correctly 10:53:56 stassats: it comes up occasionally 10:54:21 FUCK! You would PROGRAM! 10:54:24 displaced arrays share contents and are slow 10:54:37 stassats: ok 10:54:48 Can't you write a loop to copy elements from array A to array B? 10:54:54 make-array with :displaced-to .. if you want a new copy you can use copy-seq on a 1d representation 10:55:07 pjb: i could 10:55:17 So do it! 10:55:25 adeht: and initial contents to the original array 10:55:30 faheem: 2 dim array is actually a one dimensional array with a different header, so if you're after performance can just use 1 dimensional one 10:55:49 stassats: hmm. 10:55:57 but i don't see where would you need to have both at the same time 10:57:54 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 10:59:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:01:19 faheem: python is a tricycle for all that concerns the numerical computation. 11:01:40 -!- benny [~user@i577A8F1D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:02:15 faheem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134322 11:02:42 pnpuff: it's slow 11:03:01 faheem: sure. 11:04:36 taka a look at fflas and ffpack (or blas lapack to say). there is a single row of python in those? 11:04:42 pnpuff: the question is - how is common lisp for numerical computation? 11:05:17 faheem: http://cliki.net/Performance 11:06:35 stassats: thanks 11:07:12 pnpuff: thanks 11:12:13 -!- substitute [~substitut@c-50-132-44-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:17:31 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:55 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:32 nikodem [~nikodem@user-164-126-17-187.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:18:52 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.15.125] has joined #lisp 11:19:19 GuthurHome [~user@203.122.223.123] has joined #lisp 11:19:35 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.113] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:21:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-234.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: 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[~user@cust-seco21th2-46-193-64-247.wb.wifirst.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:20 -!- pjb is now known as Guest42821 13:32:08 toutouastro [c5020429@gateway/web/freenode/ip.197.2.4.41] has joined #lisp 13:32:16 hi guys 13:32:19 :) 13:32:27 I have some questions foro you 13:32:50 what are the benefits of learning lisp 13:33:03 for somebody that is not going to work with it ? 13:33:59 It's fun. 13:35:45 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:47 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 13:37:17 more than ruby and python for exmaple 13:37:18 ? 13:38:27 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:39:58 tout: It is weird. 13:40:15 tout: Learning weird things requires you to re-evaluate things in new ways. 13:40:19 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 13:40:24 X-Scale [email@78-130-56-14.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 13:40:33 tout: You should also learn prolog for this reason, imho. 13:42:09 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.202] has joined #lisp 13:43:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-123.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:44:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-123.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:45:45 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:46:23 tout: nowadays everyone should still listen the music of the years 60-80! that music has rocked even the rocks. 13:46:35 -!- Guest42821 is now known as pjb 13:47:06 toutouastro: and Rock is Rock!! 13:47:21 ubii_ [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 13:47:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:47:50 Even the 50's. I love surfrock. 13:48:32 :-) right. 13:49:35 -!- X-Scale [email@78-130-56-14.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:50:33 Zhivago: there's picoLisp to learn a strange lisp and a wierd prolog at the same time :) 13:50:58 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:51:21 so if I want to list files in a directory and get some basic information about them (those are images), I should use cl-fad right? 13:51:59 -!- xispirito [~xispirito@unaffiliated/doutor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:11 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:14 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:26 tcr1 [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:35 xispirito [~xispirito@unaffiliated/doutor] has joined #lisp 13:57:16 dim: (directory "/usr/share/images/*.png") 13:57:49 nice 13:58:26 -!- vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:32 do I need to learn and understand pathname designators or should I just pretend #p"/path/to/file" is a path string and be happy forever after? 13:58:38 vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:12 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.182.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:59:22 pjb: Is the dot necessary? Looks DOSsy 14:00:14 antoszka: the mapping of logical pathnames to posix pathnames is not uniform from one implementation to another. 14:00:25 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 14:00:40 lisp pathnames have a name and a type (and a version), separated by dots. 14:00:41 I just wish I could wildcard a subset of files without the dot. Doesn't work in sbcl/linux. 14:00:55 Ah, ok, that makes sense then (even if not entirely useful). 14:01:04 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:09 If you want to work with posix pathnames, better use a posix API. 14:02:38 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:03:37 -!- bitonic [~user@109.116.138.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:52 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:04:26 bitonic [~user@109.116.138.80] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:06:06 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.241.209] has joined #lisp 14:10:22 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:11:47 pjb: Yeah. 14:12:38 is cl-fad that posix api? 14:14:13 X-Scale [email@78-130-56-15.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:16:20 deckeraa [~aaron@97-83-167-14.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:55 mstevens_ [~mstevens@81.2.103.19] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:55 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:53 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 14:24:20 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:27:26 tetzco [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has joined #lisp 14:31:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-123.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:32:20 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:52 -!- toutouastro [c5020429@gateway/web/freenode/ip.197.2.4.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:36:50 -!- tetzco [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:37:04 tetzco [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has joined #lisp 14:38:36 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:38:37 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 14:40:33 say I want to get dimensions of images in a directory, among other metadata, and I have several image types. Seems I need either a CFFI program like cl-devil or lisp-magick, or I need the full range of cl-zpng, cl-skippy, cl-jpeg, zpb-exif, and maybe some more as I go 14:40:43 any advice or idea here? :) 14:41:20 You could arrange to have the metadata already present. 14:41:45 e.g., generate it when you generate the image. 14:41:53 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 14:45:12 in that case images would be user provided, not generated 14:48:16 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:51:08 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 14:51:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:51:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:51:49 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:53:41 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:56:59 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 14:57:00 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:59 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:22 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:03:46 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:41 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.135] has joined #lisp 15:06:51 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:13 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 15:09:00 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 15:11:18 cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:40 -!- ubii_ is now known as ubii 15:17:22 Unable to load foreign library (DEFAULT-18038). Error opening shared library libIL.dylib : dlopen(libIL.dylib, 10): Symbol not found: _png_set_gray_1_2_4_to_8 15:17:31 I guess that means I won't be using cl-devil 15:21:12 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:24 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:55 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:42 bitonic` [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 15:24:04 -!- bitonic [~user@109.116.138.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:27:55 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-141-183.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 15:29:57 -!- ASau` [~user@217.118.90.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:36:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-123.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:53:06 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 15:53:24 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:54:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:55:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-123.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:55:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:56:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:04:34 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 is there something in the standard to get the filename extension? 16:08:05 oh, pathname-type 16:12:04 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:12:30 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 16:13:11 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:13:43 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 16:18:29 ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 16:19:26 toutouastro [c5020429@gateway/web/freenode/ip.197.2.4.41] has joined #lisp 16:19:26 -!- toutouastro [c5020429@gateway/web/freenode/ip.197.2.4.41] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:42 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:20:15 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:31 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:21:01 -!- X-Scale [email@78-130-56-15.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 16:22:33 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:53 jeti [~user@p548E98E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:57 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:29:16 dim: you know there are whole applications developed and sold, to manage image files, collecting image metadata in databases or sidecar files, and presenting them to the users. Why would you think that is? 16:29:35 nikodem [~nikodem@user-164-126-9-31.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:29:55 why is that question relevant? 16:30:08 <15:40:33> say I want to get dimensions of images in a directory, among other metadata, and I have several image types. Seems I need either a CFFI program like cl-devil or lisp-magick, or I need the full range of cl-zpng, cl-skippy, cl-jpeg, zpb-exif, and maybe some more as I go 16:30:31 yes? 16:30:32 so again: just program it! No, the OS doesn't provide this feature! 16:30:41 that's what I'm doing yes 16:30:59 do I need a single lib possibly using CFFI or a lib per image type? 16:31:11 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:31:28 apparently relying on cffi is not that easy and require some amount of compatibility in between random .so you get here and there 16:31:38 so it seems that using a pure lisp lib per file format is easier 16:31:42 any advice? 16:31:57 If you have the resources to write the lisp code to parse each file format, do it. 16:32:17 if not, you may use lisp libraries, or in their absence, foreign libraries. 16:33:00 there's no single lisp lib with support for more than one file format, I would have liked someone else to have implemented trival-image-size, say 16:33:07 A good C library could be used to get something rapidly and working with a wide range of file formats. 16:33:21 This is not a trivial problem! 16:33:24 dim: you know there are whole applications developed and sold, to manage image files, collecting image metadata in databases or sidecar files, and presenting them to the users. Why would you think that is? 16:33:40 it's not trivial, fair enough 16:34:13 And then, you said "to get dimensions of images", but that doesn't mean anything. 16:34:30 What do you want? Number of pixels? number of points? size in centimeters? 16:34:33 gd or imagemagick. You could even just run-program it up. 16:34:48 Some image file format don't have pixel sizes! 16:35:09 yeah I've been trying the promising cl-devil foreign lib but it did fail to load some symbols in its dependency libpng 16:35:25 I didn't try gd or imagemagick, I'd first go with some lisp code 16:35:44 -!- mjflick [mjflick@gnu/savannah/team/mjflick] has left #lisp 16:37:05 On MacOSX, you could try some applescript to iPhoto ;-) 16:37:22 I've seen bindings to gd and imagemagick. 16:37:39 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:38:54 macosx: man sips 16:42:17 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:43 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-46-122.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:46:15 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:47:06 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 16:47:46 -!- werwerwer [~1@158.181.210.13] has quit [Quit: THIS IS QUIT MESSAGE] 16:48:23 why does the man sip? 16:48:36 oh wait...nvm 16:49:48 Seems to be a bsd program, so you could have it on linux too. 16:49:49 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:50:36 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:50:38 nice 16:50:48 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:51:31 werwerwer [~1@158.181.210.13] has joined #lisp 16:57:25 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57:39 so what are lispers upto thesedays? :) 16:59:47 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 17:00:06 sambio [~sambio@host116.190-228-67.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 (loop for i upto 10 collect i) => (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 17:02:21 Blkt [~user@host217-6-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 Sorry, (loop for lisper upto 10 collect i) => (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 17:02:27 :-) 17:03:24 upto 2: GF(2) is sufficient. ^^ 17:05:14 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 (loop for lisper upto 10 collect i) => i undefined 17:06:30 sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 17:06:37 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:06:41 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:06:50 its a good thing, i have started to understand lisp jokes now.... 17:07:00 -!- sambio [~sambio@host116.190-228-67.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:07:07 sambio_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 17:07:18 jeti: upto 2 was even wrong :) 17:12:37 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 17:13:48 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 17:18:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:19:31 arrk13 [~arrakis24@83-131-90-219.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:22:41 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:53 jeti: there's a lisp joke in there: emacs can't refactor a simple loop! :-) 17:24:04 hmm now i have to start understanding the code too 17:24:15 clhs loop 17:24:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 17:24:44 programming language are formal language. Read the reference. Too bad it's an informal reference, but it's all you have. 17:25:20 It's better for non English natives, since for them English words are as artificial as any other mathematical notation. 17:25:45 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-011-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:43 theos: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 17:26:57 Now, of course, having learned a programming language early may help expecting some formality in your native language. I learned a French programming language at 11, so some French words or constructs feel quite formal to me (to the point I would write keywords instead of words, making ortographical errors :-)) 17:27:48 pnpuff thanks. i have that book :) 17:28:19 pjb: math is the universal language anyway, more than english :) 17:28:26 the problem is, i have to read it. oneday.. 17:32:45 theos: How to talk to the Universe? learn lisp ...even aliens know how to program in lisp!! :) 17:33:52 pnpuff learning lisp is one of the things i want to do before i die :) or go to another planet!! 17:35:46 better a better life.. in a better planet! 17:35:55 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176493761.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 17:36:48 bitonic`` [~user@37.183.22.234] has joined #lisp 17:36:53 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:27 ravster [~ravi@66.207.222.14] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 hello all 17:38:14 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:28 -!- Blkt [~user@host217-6-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:39 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:44:03 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:26 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:46:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 17:47:11 dbushenko [~dim@178.121.152.131] has joined #lisp 17:49:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:05 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: bye] 17:52:37 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:10 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 17:58:21 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 18:00:17 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:01:14 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-011-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:04:07 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:28 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-226-214.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:28 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:37 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 18:06:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:08:32 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:10:50 -!- bitonic`` is now known as bitonic 18:11:00 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:12:17 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:38 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:15:33 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:16:23 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:36 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 18:16:56 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:22:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:23:28 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:18 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:28:28 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:28:31 francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has joined #lisp 18:30:50 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.135] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.135] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:43:33 I really don't get why you think LOOP is a good idea. 18:43:57 I have never seen any application of LOOP where I thought "now, this is a clear program". 18:44:25 It only shows that 'macros are powerful', whatever that may mean. 18:44:28 you can preach your distaste of LOOP in #loop-haters 18:44:53 Practical Common Lisp has some much better examples of macros however. 18:45:34 nobody is forcing you to use it 18:47:13 Take this for example: (loop for item in list for i from 1 to 10 do (something)) It breaks with every other programming language that came before it. 18:47:36 can you stop? nobody cares 18:47:49 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 18:48:15 bitonic` [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:49:27 -!- bitonic [~user@37.183.22.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50:36 -!- sambio_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:04 Can people only discuss what the stasi, er I mean stassats approves of? 18:51:18 -!- segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-108-67-102-78.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:37 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:04 just use iterate 18:52:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:16 Invariant: Which other language has a looping construct where you can even express the same thing in just the looping construct? 18:54:27 -!- sellout [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:54:42 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:42 tcr, [1..10] vs (loop for i upto 10 collect i) 18:55:02 [0..10] , whatever 18:55:18 Bike, yes, bike actually seems an improvement. 18:55:29 francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has joined #lisp 18:55:37 Bike, I meant iterate. 18:55:54 so, use it. arguments about loop were old before i was born, and not very interesting 18:56:31 Still, iterate likely kills any compositional property. 18:56:37 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:56:55 compositional property? 18:58:04 Yes, if everything is just a first class citizen (i.e. expression), you don't have that problem. 18:58:17 invariant: That is true of macros in general. It has not much to do with LOOP as a looping construct. 18:58:23 Introducing a million keywords is not going to make it easier to understand a program. 18:58:34 invariant: [1..10] is not a looping construct but syntax to create data 18:59:04 tcr, give me an example of a green thing that is not green. 18:59:07 you being annoying wont make loop less useful for anybody who considers it useful. 18:59:14 Is your point that you find lazy lists an elegant data to express all kind of sequential operations? 18:59:18 hi. if i do something like (loop for x from 0 to (first (array-dimensions arr))) does this recalculate (first (array-dimensions arr)) every time? 18:59:26 no 18:59:26 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:32 only the first time 18:59:38 stassats: thanks, that' 18:59:39 tcr, no, just that you need to have a good reason to break expression semantics. 18:59:46 tcr, and LOOP doesn't provide any such reason. 18:59:58 stassats: thanks, that's good 19:00:08 Teaching it to other people seems to be nothing short from inflicting brain damage. 19:00:21 invariant: If I understand what you mean, I'd say that's usually true for macros in general 19:00:29 -!- ered [~ered@2001:470:8:a21:8e89:a5ff:fe15:4aa0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:46 tcr, you understood me then. 19:01:14 faheem: protip: that can be just (loop for x to ...) 19:01:15 Well, fair enough. If you ain't gonna like it, there are many other languages to choose from. :-) 19:01:59 faheem: and you would most likely want BELOW 19:02:32 stassats: ah, good point. defaults to 0, does it? and yes, probably below 19:02:52 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.87] has left #lisp 19:03:04 faheem: and (first (array-dimensions array)) == (array-dimension array 0) 19:03:34 stassats: thanks 19:05:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:01 segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:49 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:08:46 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 19:09:09 bitonic`` [~user@37.183.22.234] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:11:21 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 19:13:29 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@pool-173-76-25-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:56 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:01 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:14:32 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:58 segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:35 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:18:20 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-83.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:20:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 19:21:15 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:21:26 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d65e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:24:56 segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:03 i notice when libraries are loaded, they are compiled, at least for sbcl and ccl 19:26:00 however, doesn't the compiler need to (potentially) recompile the library code as well, depending on optimization settings? or does it just use the compiled version? 19:26:04 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:24 recompile when? 19:26:29 fasl files should be maintained 19:27:49 stassats: recompiled when used in a user program, i meant 19:28:02 Bike: don't follow 19:28:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-72.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:05 why should it be? 19:28:26 faheem: they are 'linked', sort of 19:28:42 faheem: when you load a library the second time it can just load the already-compiled fasl files 19:28:53 prxq: right 19:29:41 biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:48 Fare [~fare@68-245-80-209.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:11 vyz [~univyrse@68-190-59-32.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:18 Bike: i figured. but supposing you compiled your user code with more optimization than the library code, or suppose the library code is not optimized, or suppose that there would be some benefit from some global optimization. in all these cases, one of out of luck? 19:30:31 sorry, that should have been 19:30:35 one is out of luck 19:30:40 optimization settings are local 19:31:02 stassats: ok, but they are not passed down to called functions? 19:31:09 no 19:31:22 stassats: thanks. i didn't register that. 19:31:33 declarations are basically lexical far as i know 19:31:49 there are global declarations 19:31:50 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 clhs proclaim 19:31:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_procla.htm 19:32:03 prxq_ [~mommer@vpn205-075.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:00 ASau [~user@217.118.90.203] has joined #lisp 19:34:30 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 stassats: thanks. reading now 19:36:20 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d65e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:36:47 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 19:37:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:39:41 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:08 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.241.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:41:27 Trying to get software fixed during the holidays is not great. 19:41:39 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:26 antoniocetera [~antonioce@host184-58-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:32 I'm thinking maybe I should try to setup Lisp free software libraries in a system more like Google's: free for all commits, but review required, and automatic pre-commit checks and post-commit integration tests. 19:44:05 -!- antoniocetera [~antonioce@host184-58-static.34-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 19:44:36 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:38 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:11 not enough human resources 19:47:19 what for? 19:47:23 setting up the servers? 19:47:24 Hi Fare 19:47:26 review 19:47:36 apart from transition costs, it's not worse than now. 19:47:38 I was fixing something in swank-asdf and had a question to you 19:47:52 tcr: oh, sorry for breaking it 19:48:04 well, lack of review would be no worse than now 19:48:29 we could have a policy: "no review is good review after a few days" 19:48:41 that's automatable. 19:48:47 -!- bitonic`` [~user@37.183.22.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:49:58 Fare: i'm not really unhappy about the current situation 19:50:08 (bad connection in this bus, btw... which is infinitely better than no connection) 19:50:18 stassats: regarding Lisp libraries? 19:50:22 yes 19:50:44 question is: wouldn't you be happier if there were more cooperation, without the need for more coordination? 19:51:29 well, any reduction in bugs will be good, but i wouldn't say the current situation is dire 19:52:03 and, considering that worse is better, maybe changing it wouldn't improve things much 19:52:05 Fare: in asdf-determine-system, the (loop ) looking for a system named by buffer-package-name; I question that the loop will ever find anything that the previous PROGN did not find. What do you think? 19:52:05 refactorings across components is painful. 19:52:14 having 30 different test libraries is painful 19:52:30 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52:37 there are already test-automation efforts 19:52:37 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 19:53:27 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/ 19:53:31 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:53:55 The loop without the "thereis (pathname-system )" /might/ turn out to reveal something additionally after careful thinking which I haven't done yet. But with the "thereis pathname-system" it seems obviously impossible 19:54:17 yes, but they are painful to setup and don't make it easy to run test on a "hypothetical" set of patches as an automated pre-checkin (or pre-merge) condition. 19:55:38 tcr: that code is from before my time, I merely refactored/simplified it. But yeah, it smells fishy to me. 19:55:47 so, make them easier to set up? 19:56:07 tcr: in particular, if the package is already loaded and has nicknames, it's probably too late to load it via asdf. 19:56:14 stassats, yup 19:57:12 but that might imply using git more universally to allow for decentralized hypothetical pre-merge patches in a uniform way 19:57:19 Fare: asdf-determine-system is used for guessing the current system from the current buffer when asking for a system name 19:57:19 that's what desire was trying to do 19:57:32 too bad samium got burned out 19:58:03 Not quite sure why we differentiate in slime-asdf in how we try to determine the current system 19:58:52 tcr: but doesn't the package-names thing suppose the package is already loaded? 19:59:00 Yes 19:59:04 no? 19:59:23 package name is fetched from in-package, it can be not loaded 19:59:34 i'm not stating this as a fact, but i just assume 19:59:44 then you can just use pathname-system 20:00:07 stassats: if it's not loaded, how will package-names return anything useful? 20:00:22 Fare: Yes, it's for guessing the current system based from context of the current-buffer 20:01:44 I suppose the guess-buffer-package part is fine, but the package-names part is bogus 20:02:07 someone tried to overdo it 20:02:11 and broke it 20:02:11 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.27] has joined #lisp 20:02:14 That probably stems from before the pathname-system stuff 20:02:23 definitely does 20:02:32 but even then, whoever added the package-names broke it 20:02:39 francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has joined #lisp 20:02:56 anyway, pathname-system returns the system which is then tried to be sent over the wire and breaks 20:03:27 bitonic [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 20:03:53 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 20:03:54 tcr: looks like it was you in ce487fdf 20:04:01 there are always pathological cases like mcclim 20:04:02 Sorry I think the (loop ) construct without the thereis (pathname-system ..) makes sense 20:04:15 it's impossible to guess the correct system 20:04:16 Sat Nov 21 16:27:55 2009 checkin 20:04:31 whoever added the pathname-system stuff didn't quite think through. And that was definitively not me 20:04:46 I added the pathname-system thing. 20:04:57 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:01 and I didn't think through the PREVIOUS code, but I did think through pathname-system. 20:05:05 Yes, and I think it makes the (loop ..) thing superfluous. 20:05:09 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:20 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 what if the system is not loaded yet? 20:06:05 when the system is loaded, pathname-system will DTRT. When it's not loaded yet, is that function supposed to return a guess? 20:06:09 what "the system"? 20:06:21 the system in which the current file was compiled 20:07:10 Uh well that sounds quite pathological. A single .lisp file which contains a defpackage form, which was explicitly loaded by the user, and which also happens to have an .asd file 20:07:14 shall we assume that the file won't be loaded if the system wasn't loaded (or at least defined with an aborted load attempt) 20:07:14 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:30 yes, that's pathological. do we want to support that? 20:07:40 what happens when the file wasn't loaded yet? 20:08:40 gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 20:08:50 gigamonkey, hi! 20:09:02 Hello. 20:09:10 Fare: I'll commit my changes. I just wanted to make sure I was not missing anything. 20:09:16 hi indeed! 20:09:28 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.34.154] has joined #lisp 20:09:34 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:17 *stassats* can't seem to force himself to use ,l 20:11:47 stassats: why is that? 20:11:52 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 20:12:03 maybe because (:asd 'foo) is already easy to use 20:12:19 and can be used without slime 20:12:22 ,lf is shorter :-) 20:12:24 no completion, though 20:12:26 ah ok 20:12:43 didn't know about :asd. 20:12:56 well, f see lots of package that you didn't want to load, spend more time figuring than typing 20:13:04 prxq: you need to define it yourself, though 20:13:36 stassats: why not :l, then? 20:13:45 asd is more descriptive 20:14:10 and easy to type, thanks to the lack of imagination of the ASDF creators 20:14:51 BountyX [~andrew@d118-75-192-10.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:51 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:53 i also have something like (:lp) meaning load project, and it also sets *package* 20:15:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:15:32 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:59 stassats: does :lp load the .asd in the working directory? 20:16:14 no, the predefined project i'm working on 20:16:35 *prxq* wonders if there is something to win from the cutesy of :P :] :} 20:17:01 stassats: so you have a "current project" kind of thing, I gather 20:17:52 well, it can be changed with different suffixes for different projects 20:19:30 well, ,l and completion really go a long way, i think. I've sometimes pondered an icon based approach, but found that overkill 20:20:25 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 20:21:40 prxq: well, good thing i don't use pjb-ware 20:21:51 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 stassats: heh 20:24:06 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 20:24:44 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has left #lisp 20:25:36 in the past i've used cores with all things imaginable preloaded 20:27:02 but then computers got faster, so that stopped to make much of a difference, and i got sick of waiting for everything to compile after rebuilding SBCL even if i just wanted to test one thing 20:27:54 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:27:56 -!- xispirito [~xispirito@unaffiliated/doutor] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:57 quick survey: would anyone here go to an ILC2014 in Montreal? In Ottawa? 20:28:09 xispirito [~xispirito@unaffiliated/doutor] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 when I typed asdf too fast, it appears as adsf 20:29:11 I suppose because my middle finger is longer. 20:29:38 is it better with xcvb? 20:30:17 mildly 20:30:18 i guess Montreal is easy for North American lispers 20:30:19 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.34.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:24 first, I type it less often 20:33:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:33 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 Fare: I'd go 20:34:55 *stassats* can't plan that far 20:35:05 to Montreal, preferably 20:35:18 -!- biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-238-131.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:35:19 and 10+ hours flight doesn't add points 20:35:42 -!- Fare [~fare@68-245-80-209.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:35:45 stassats: I think Fare was asking for an aesthetic opinion, not an assurance 20:36:12 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:25 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:39:32 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-164-126-9-31.play-internet.pl] has quit [] 20:41:09 -!- tetzco [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:41:20 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:41:32 tetzco [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has joined #lisp 20:44:06 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 20:45:22 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:06 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:07 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:50:24 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:04 substitute [~substitut@c-50-132-44-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:08 On SBCL: Are there any 'gotchas' when using CFFI to talk with plain C code compiled using a different compiler than that used for SBCL? 20:56:04 Trying to get information on it is a little annoying because my searches keep getting intercepted by C++ interop woes 20:57:15 how different? 20:57:17 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 but i don't expect there to be any 20:57:48 but why do you ask? 20:58:18 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 gridaphobe [~user@ip72-219-56-19.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 zulu_inuoe: usually, all C compilers on a system use the same ABI. 20:59:57 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:11 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:21 zulu_inuoe: the FFIs are not defined in general in terms of an underlying C compiler. In the case of sbcl, the C compiler is only used to compile a few runtime functions, not to implement the FFI (AFAIK). 21:00:38 zulu_inuoe: (in case of ecl, it could be different). 21:00:46 -!- dbushenko [~dim@178.121.152.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:55 Now, if you're using C++, it's a different matter. 21:01:00 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:03 I am asking because I want to be careful. What specifically triggered me to think about it was that I loaded some DLLs (windows) into SBCL through CFFI, then through visual studio attached its debugger on to the SBCL process. It'd often generate exceptions caught by the debugger and so my first thought was that there might be some issues with either the compiler discrepancies, or the runtime library used 21:01:06 Notably, name mangling is compiler dependant. 21:01:16 Better avoid C++ for libraries. 21:01:30 pjb: I am very aware of such issues and wholesomely agree 21:01:45 zulu_inuoe: well, C has no exceptions 21:01:59 MS-Windows has exceptions :-) 21:02:05 Exactly. 21:02:40 But this is not a compiler question then, but an OS question. 21:02:46 well, i can only tell about gdb on windows, when used with sbcl, it'll often report segfaults, that's because uses it for GC purposes 21:02:54 gdb on linux, that is 21:02:54 So I'm trying to reason out why these are getting triggered. Is it that SBCL internally uses them to perform tasks? Is it simply the debuger being in the environment? Or is it an issue with runtime libraries differing? 21:03:28 zulu_inuoe: we use memory protection to make GC efficient. 21:03:39 On unix you can tell gdb to ignore or let the application process certain signals. I guess something similar is possible with MS-Windows exceptions? 21:03:44 do memory faults cause exceptions on windows? 21:04:20 I don't know what VS's debugger calls those. 21:04:25 A common exception I was receiving was an access violation. Memory address seemed legit 21:04:40 zulu_inuoe: right, that's GC then 21:04:56 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:58 stassats: Okay good. Thank you 21:06:50 Er. Thanks everyone I mean heh 21:08:21 pjb: I'll have to see how much I can control that. I still want it to catch said exceptions when they're actually issues 21:08:35 sbcl will tell you 21:09:15 But I'm using Visual Studio's to step through C code. 21:09:59 zulu_inuoe: that's highly unlikely to end well. 21:10:30 pkhuong: Realizing that hehe. Going to think of another approach 21:13:08 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:14:30 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:32 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:38 jeti` [~user@p548EAD7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:59 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:16 -!- jeti [~user@p548E98E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:25:11 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:27:51 -!- ASau [~user@217.118.90.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:49 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-237-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-46-122.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:57 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-228-46.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:31:01 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:34:32 -!- substitute [~substitut@c-50-132-44-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:39:28 Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 21:39:57 ASau [~user@217.118.90.203] has joined #lisp 21:40:47 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-160.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:44 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:45:04 gmad29 [83ef3f05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.239.63.5] has joined #lisp 21:47:12 can i specialize with a keyword parameter? 21:47:26 no 21:47:31 gmad29: if you mean "specialize on a keyword parameter", then no 21:47:33 only on required 21:49:02 ok i have to rethink my design a bit then 21:50:02 -!- Ralt [~ralt@4cb54-1-213-44-242-236.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:11 can I get dynamically the class-name of an instance? 21:56:25 dim: did you not ask the same question yesterday? 21:56:34 nope 21:56:43 dim: (class-name (class-of instance)) was my answer. 21:57:01 oh and yesterday I had a class, not an instance, and it was with MOP 21:57:09 mmm, anyway, that asnwer is the one for today 21:57:18 you're 1-day ahead, thanks :) 21:57:50 (type-of instance) 21:59:57 it also has the property that when the class doesn't have a name, it will return the class 22:00:56 here it's to format it for http header (image/xxx), so I don't think I will like it if I get the class itself 22:01:15 but well my classes here all have name 22:01:35 i don't think that you'll like NIL either 22:02:30 given (defclass png (image) ()) and i an instance of it, it appears that type-of i is the symbol png. can I count on that? 22:02:43 yes 22:02:53 then I'm ok, thanks :) 22:07:10 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:33 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 22:12:15 francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has joined #lisp 22:13:22 if I have a file and I go to file-position stream position and do a format stream ... how is it possible to write on top of what is there already ? 22:14:08 what does it mean, "on top"? 22:14:14 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 22:14:46 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: paranoid] 22:15:45 like in that position and up to 10 characters there is a line = "abcdrfgtfd" I want to replace by (format stream "zzzzzzzzzz") same size of string 22:15:59 well, you just do file-position as you told 22:16:01 without disrupting before and after 22:16:18 won't work with characters of different width 22:16:46 it will be the same string size exactly 22:16:54 in bytes? 22:17:09 n-eh no not in bytes 22:17:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:17:47 Undefined function BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-THREAD called with arguments ... 22:17:48 I'm playing with scribbles literate programming module, why can I not typeset my literate document directly with scribble, why do I need to use the (lp-include ) form into a different document and typeset that? 22:17:49 for example the above "abcdrfgtfd" "zzzzzzzzzz" 22:17:52 from hunchentoot code. 22:18:12 and I even did an explicit (ql:quickload :bordeaux-threads) 22:18:21 should I remove things from the cache (fasls etc)? 22:18:29 oh dear, wrong channel (again) 22:18:45 francogrex: are you aware of variable length encodings? 22:18:47 -!- gmad29 [83ef3f05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.239.63.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:19:00 not in the least :( 22:19:36 so I should use write-byte etc... or write-char 22:19:41 -!- prxq [~mommer@vpn205-075.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:12 you need to understand what's going on first 22:22:08 francogrex: a string with the same amount of characters may be encoded as a different amount of bytes in an encoding where one character may or may not be multiple bytes, like utf-8, is the point. 22:22:12 francogrex: for instance, with a utf-8 external format, ascii characters will fit in one byte, but more than on byte will be needed to store other characters.. of course, you could decide to first encode to utf-8 and then verify how many bytes result, or you could make sure to only allow characters that will be encoded as intended 22:23:04 http://kunststube.net/encoding/ 22:23:22 maybe minion could be taught about all the "what every X needs to know about Y" articles 22:23:41 pjb: hi 22:24:52 aerique: hi, are you there? 22:25:46 ok good material, 22:25:58 I don't believe you've read it all in 2 minutes 22:26:52 material to be read 22:27:08 :) see what i was initially doing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134328 22:27:14 a toy test 22:27:34 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 22:27:37 "AsunciĆ³n" 22:27:42 see, you need to know about encodings. 22:28:20 why should I look at what you are doing, when you don't know what you're doing? 22:28:33 read the material, now, and don't bother us again until you have 22:28:55 the principle 22:29:08 you know the general idea 22:29:41 k0001 [~k0001@host30.190-224-49.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:29:58 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:07 francogrex: although most lisp implementations with unicode support allow to encode strings to bytes, the alexandria library also has such functions 22:30:12 -!- sdemarre [~serge@252.179-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:30:45 you mean babel? 22:30:48 and if you want all characters to fit in the same space, you might want to consider using ucs-4/utf-32 big endian or such 22:30:58 Bike: probably :) 22:31:56 yes, babel, thanks 22:32:57 -!- pareidolia [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:33:26 linse [~marioooh@catbook.visitor.congress.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 *francogrex* saved the material/page on my tablet, going to do some late night reading... 22:34:05 francogrex: also, if the database isn't enormous, rewriting it in a format where variable characters and strings is no problem might be simpler... it'd be stored in memory, and updated to disk as needed using an "fs-atomic" copy-write-rename 22:34:29 no need for random access writes then 22:35:10 phadthai: I am only playing around, was reading a book and wanted to test the concept (the chapter uses random access ...) 22:36:11 random access is sane with fixed-sized records 22:36:24 (or records expanded to fit the allocated block size) 22:36:36 or padded, if you prefer 22:37:18 francogrex: you need to open the file :direction :io 22:37:36 yes, i thought by having fixed length strings i was doing "fixed size" records, i was wrong! 22:37:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:51 Also, if it's a text file, then it won't work with random encodings. Notably not with utf-8. 22:38:33 pjb ok 22:39:13 unless it's a valid utf-8 encoded text-file :) 22:39:24 phadthai: no, not unless. Plain no. 22:39:42 phadthai: think about it: what happens when you overwrite a 3-byte character with a single-byte character? 22:39:43 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 francogrex: But you may manage records. 22:40:01 pjb: oh, well random access would indeed be excluded 22:40:03 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:42:45 francogrex: so as long as you first encode your strings and check/pad their size you'll have fixed the wrong assumption 22:43:03 and use bytes for i/o 22:44:49 ok but this is a quick fix for this specific example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134328#1 22:45:19 substitute [~substitut@c-50-132-44-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:20 special variables without ear-muffs, the horror! 22:45:24 -!- ineiros_ [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:32 enjoy your headache 22:45:32 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 22:45:39 pjb: your correction of :direction :io helped here 22:45:49 francogrex: really, nowadays, when you write one byte to a file, you need to read 1 megabyte modify the buffer and write back 1 megabyte at least! (SSD). 22:46:17 francogrex: so there's no point in patching bytes inside files: just read the file in memory, modify the data structure, and write back the file! 22:46:47 francogrex: your raw is still full of mojibake. 22:48:46 I know this is nothing but a start 22:48:48 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:49:09 or if you could use mmap(2)/msync(2) then the OS could take care of the I/O details... but none of this matters if it's only to experiment 22:49:28 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:53:24 -!- arrk13 [~arrakis24@83-131-90-219.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 22:55:27 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:57:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:01:07 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 23:05:26 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.231.227] has quit [Quit: reading material] 23:07:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 23:09:36 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 23:09:53 pareidolia [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:14:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:15:44 -!- pareidolia [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:24 -!- linse [~marioooh@catbook.visitor.congress.ccc.de] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:26:27 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.239.99] has joined #lisp 23:28:59 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:31:02 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:32:10 hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:35:05 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 23:35:45 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:17 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 23:44:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:48:47 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:41 gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 23:58:14 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]