00:02:08 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:04 nawk [~nawk@CPE0018e7e66445-CM602ad08618e3.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:02 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:08:49 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-225-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:09:54 mizlev [~mzl@38.Red-79-146-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:22 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.42.34.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:37 -!- agumonkey [~agu@243.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:31 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 00:19:23 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:19:35 -!- mizlev1 [~mizlev@38.Red-79-146-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 00:25:56 jonasl [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:39 -!- malpas [~al@3.Red-88-26-237.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:56 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:30:06 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 00:30:12 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:34:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:14 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:18 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:13 [6502]: FWIW, what pjb says is exactly correct. Dynamic binding is always going to be so. That has caused me number of problems, and binding it lexically is one 'solution'. 00:44:23 *drewc* uses his monad for a 'global' state rather then a SPECIAL where SPECIALs have 'issues' : http://drewc.org/interface/monads-3b.html#sec-2-7 00:44:40 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-133-48.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:46:40 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:48:45 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:49:15 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:13 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:34 drewc, http://drewc.org/interface/monads-3b.html#sec-3-2 (Possible minor typo: assume it should read, "…we define our parser as follows." ("as" not "us") 00:57:22 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58:57 mofaph [~user@116.205.72.67] has joined #lisp 01:00:47 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 01:03:22 sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.43.170] has joined #lisp 01:04:28 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:50 -!- mizlev [~mzl@38.Red-79-146-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: mizlev] 01:09:20 -!- piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:11:12 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 01:13:12 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:13:31 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:55 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:32 alexy [~alexy@221.130.253.135] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:39 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:22:17 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 01:24:53 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:55 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:56 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A6C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:12 -!- jonasl [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:28:10 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A49B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:22 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 01:36:37 Thra11: thanks! and for reading it as well, thank you :) I have not done flyspell-region in a while on that, let alone actually read it. 01:41:18 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:06 -!- maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:42:50 drewc, It's interesting. I'm new to monads, so recently I've been reading lots of different explanations. btw the first block of code in section 3.2 has lots of excess space around "(state-bind smv MF)" 01:46:53 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:48:58 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 01:49:05 k 01:49:10 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:51:11 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 01:53:51 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:00 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:00 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:56:17 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.18] has joined #lisp 01:56:53 Thra11: Well, I do want to write an introduction to monads themselves and haveactually started to do so... based on my 2009 stuff : https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/smug.org#syntax--let-and-the-identity-monad 01:57:04 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:38 Thra11: so, I will make the corrections to my current thing and publish it ...hold 01:58:16 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@h193.61.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:00:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 02:01:56 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 02:04:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:23 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:04 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 02:06:50 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:07:16 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:22 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 02:12:19 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:12:58 Vigulsimox [~Vigulsimo@24-139-31-38.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 02:15:10 -!- Vigulsimox [~Vigulsimo@24-139-31-38.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:16:02 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@175.106.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 02:19:28 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 02:23:37 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:30:11 SkyAnemone [~skyanemon@c-69-248-136-58.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:27 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 02:36:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:40:49 brazilianguy [~idonteven@189-69-121-202.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:40:50 -!- brguy [~idonteven@189-69-112-53.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:48 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:24 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:48:05 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 02:50:32 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:56 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:26 -!- SkyAnemone [~skyanemon@c-69-248-136-58.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:04:53 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:07:46 transmitt [~transmitt@c-50-149-184-110.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:08 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:14:28 -!- PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15:08 PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:03 minion: memo for Thra11: http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html and http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#postamble to comment 03:20:03 Remembered. 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[~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:00:36 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:22 mofaph` [~user@116.205.73.203] has joined #lisp 07:05:28 -!- mofaph [~user@116.205.73.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:06:25 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:07:11 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:01 -!- Tril [~tril@unaffiliated/tril] has left #lisp 07:10:43 piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.91] has joined #lisp 07:12:10 wdkrnls [~user@50.36.90.64] has joined #lisp 07:15:27 ska` [~user@203.146.146.162] has joined #lisp 07:16:42 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 07:17:21 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:36 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.148.198.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:20:32 -!- wdkrnls [~user@50.36.90.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:39 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:24:50 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:25:23 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-71-228.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:25:59 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has joined #lisp 07:30:03 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:37:02 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 07:37:14 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:47:31 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:48:47 if i want a container that is a contigious block of memory like a C array of C++ vector, does a CL simple vector suit the bill? 07:49:07 a list is what is called a linked list, so not exactly the same 07:49:14 a CL list, that is 07:50:42 faheem: vector should do nicely. 07:52:30 Bike: great, thanks 07:53:01 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 that should have been like a C array *or* C++ vector 07:54:55 -!- tdmackey [~tdmackey@booleanhaiku.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:01 cl makes no guarantee about the contigiousness of vectors in memory, but in practice, they should be single chunks of memory. if you need to share the vectors with functions that you call using the ffi, you should allocate them using the ffi. 07:55:48 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:17 H4ns: yes, sounds good. i didn't ask because was planning to pass them to C, just because theory (and my experience) says such objects are the best things to work with if one wants speed 07:56:39 or more specifically, more-or-less constant time random access? 07:56:50 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 07:57:13 Bike: for instance. but i don't think that is the only advantage. 07:57:43 i think it's better to be specific about things rather than just say "X is faster". 07:57:49 i'm not really up on the theory, but i think they are good if you ae doing number crunching 07:57:51 not that i don't think vectors are probably faster for whatever you're doing 07:57:57 Bike: i agree 07:58:15 Bike: understanding theory is good, but i've never really taken the time 07:58:40 it is more of a heuristic observation, really 07:58:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:54 there's not much to it. nth element of a linked list means traversing so many pointers; nth element of an array means accessing the head of the array plus an offset, which is usually one instruction. 07:59:15 are resizable vector a different animal, or the same thing? 07:59:41 resizing a vector just means allocating new memory and copying the old data over; the resize is O(N) but after the resize it's just like a normal vector 07:59:41 mofaph`` [~user@116.205.73.242] has joined #lisp 07:59:42 Bike: so one has to go through a lot of places before getting to where one has to go? 07:59:50 well, resizing means you have to reallocate the vector somewhere else where there's more space 07:59:59 Bike: ah 08:00:11 CL has both, actually. a simple-vector (among other things) isn't resizable. 08:00:17 Fiora: ok. so one should preallocate first if possible 08:00:22 faheem: yes, that's how linked lists work. 08:00:34 Bike: right. with or without the resizable keyword 08:00:42 it's :adjustable 08:00:44 or whatever it is called ajustable? 08:00:50 Bike: ok 08:01:19 -!- mofaph` [~user@116.205.73.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:01:49 thanks, that was helpful 08:02:07 Fiora: thanks too 08:04:24 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:43 faheem: oh, and if you're doing number crunching a lot of your speedup will be ensuring that the compiler knows that you're dealing with "an array of floats" rather than "an array of whatever", and stuff like that 08:06:55 Bike: sure. using fixnums and so forth, right? 08:07:13 i'm not bothering with that for the moment 08:07:14 right. 08:07:47 i find trying to do premature optimization can become a counterproductive obsession quite easily 08:07:57 quite 08:08:02 it's something to do with human psychology 08:08:11 save the obsession for when the code's mature 08:08:19 Bike: exactly 08:10:03 i assume in CL one does profiling and then just tries to optimize the hot spots, yes? 08:10:19 or do people scatters fixnums everywhere regardless? 08:10:43 it's not just CL, profiling and optimizing what's actually the problem is good for programming 08:10:44 Bike: a lot of my stuff is simulation, so i have to worry about performance 08:10:58 otherwise my code takes a month to run 08:11:23 not scattering fixnum everywhere is good in a dynamic typy way, like you won't get warnings about integers overflowing (before you want them, anyway) 08:11:55 Bike: sure, but in CL one can selectively type things, with C/C++ and other strong static type languages one doesn't have a choice 08:12:06 Bike: ok, i see 08:12:21 jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-136.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:14:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:18:20 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:18:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:18:20 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:22:11 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:23:18 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-164-165-162.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:28:42 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:54 what is the recommended way to select a subrange of a CL vector? 08:28:57 mofaph``` [~user@116.205.74.6] has joined #lisp 08:30:46 -!- mofaph`` [~user@116.205.73.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:31:38 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:29 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:32:34 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dhzslxyhttczebno] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dhzslxyhttczebno] has quit [Changing host] 08:32:34 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:35:02 faheem subseq 08:35:33 kennyd: thanks 08:35:37 np 08:36:27 is there a non-copying version of this? 08:36:41 this one creates a new vector 08:37:10 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.60.6] has joined #lisp 08:38:10 -!- mofaph``` [~user@116.205.74.6] has left #lisp 08:40:42 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 08:40:50 maybe nsubseq in http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/utility.lisp 08:43:13 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:13 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 08:44:34 i think what i am looking for are displaced arrays 08:51:09 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:56:07 minion: memo for stassats`: look at http://www.scribd.com/doc/81606140/10/CRC-Numbers 08:56:07 Remembered. I'll tell stassats` when he/she/it next speaks. 08:57:49 minion: memo for stassats`: http://www.gap-system.org/gap.html (here the manual of the current version) 08:57:49 Remembered. I'll tell stassats` when he/she/it next speaks. 08:58:23 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 09:02:22 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 09:02:56 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:29 -!- liweinan [liweinan@nat/redhat/x-heiugpwjqlrmqyrs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:11:41 mnemonk [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:33 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.60.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:15:07 buffer [~buffer@falkenstein.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:36 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has joined #lisp 09:20:07 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:19 bitonic [~user@ppp-38-25.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 09:24:54 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.43.170] has left #lisp 09:26:31 bitonic` [~user@ppp-207-73.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 09:27:27 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:46 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:28:27 stlifey_ [~stlifey@112.96.100.52] has joined #lisp 09:28:44 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-38-25.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30:03 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@125.89.69.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:32:20 agumonkey [~agu@243.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:03 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 09:35:26 -!- buffer [~buffer@falkenstein.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:37:00 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@112.96.100.52] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 09:37:22 buffer [~buffer@2.50.3.116] has joined #lisp 09:37:34 stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.52] has joined #lisp 09:41:27 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 09:43:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 faheem: better use gitorious.org darc is not used anymore. I will kill this domain. 09:45:56 minion: forget my memos 09:45:56 OK, I threw them out. 09:46:13 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.52] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 09:46:38 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:49:01 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:48 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.134] has joined #lisp 09:51:20 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:51:30 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 09:52:05 -!- piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:52:07 pjb: ok. thanks 09:52:31 faheem: if you want performance, use start and end indexes 09:52:55 stassats: can you elaborate? 09:52:57 do not copy, do not create displaced arrays, both of which are slow 09:53:05 faheem: e.g. 0 and 5 09:53:20 stassats: displaced arrays are slow? 09:53:30 very slow 09:53:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:53:40 stassats: can you give an example? 09:53:59 instead of (find x (subseq string 1 5)) you use (find x string :start 1 :end 5) 09:54:23 the same with your own function, make them accept start and end 09:55:27 stassats: how do i use this to select a subobject? 09:55:41 what is a subobject? 09:56:08 stassats: i'm trying to replace C++ code that looks like -> m = mcmc_partial(vector(datafreqlst.begin()+cumlen, 09:56:23 datafreqlst.begin()+newcumlen), rownum, mcmcsteps); 09:56:54 so a subvector of datafreqlst gets passed to the function 09:57:00 it is a bad idea to try to learn a language in terms of another 09:57:03 -!- PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:06 displaced vectors is an exact analogue. 09:57:21 why do you need exact? 09:57:22 but what stassats said. 09:57:31 pjb: well, i'm trying to get similar functionality 09:57:41 stassats: i don't need exact 09:57:48 stassats: but i want something that will do the same thing 09:58:11 a vector + start + end will do the same thing 09:58:33 stassats: hmm 09:58:34 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:59:39 i'm trying to pass a chunk of a vector to another function, without copying it. what would the syntax look like, if not using displaced arrays? 10:00:18 with displaced arrays it looks like 10:00:21 (mcmc_partial (make-array tuplen :displaced-to datafreqlst :displaced-index-offset cumlen)) 10:01:08 stlifey [~stlifey@125.89.69.219] has joined #lisp 10:01:20 (mcmc_partial vector :start cumlen :end (- (length vector) cumlen)) 10:01:46 stassats: ok. i'll try that 10:02:33 stassats: what would just the slice look like? 10:02:51 what is "just the slice"? 10:03:28 stassats: (make-array tuplen :displaced-to datafreqlst :displaced-index-offset cumlen 10:03:32 ) 10:03:43 i don't understand the question 10:03:48 stassats: ok. 10:04:13 stassats: probably some miscommunication 10:04:47 "i'm trying to pass a chunk of a vector to another function" 10:05:11 so, i'm wondering what just the chunk would look like. once i have the chunk, then i can pass it 10:05:12 yes, we already just discussed how to do it 10:05:30 the chunk is the original vector plus bounding indices 10:05:55 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:05:57 vexy [~vexy@37.244.191.136] has joined #lisp 10:05:59 stassats: ok. can you repeat the syntax, please? 10:06:00 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 10:06:06 no 10:06:42 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-207-73.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:47 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:8f09] has joined #lisp 10:06:47 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:8f09] has quit [Changing host] 10:06:47 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 10:06:56 minion: logs 10:06:56 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 10:07:05 faheem: ^^ 10:07:26 just scrolling would be easier 10:07:37 but sometimes impossible. 10:08:16 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 10:12:37 hi 10:13:03 Hi... 10:15:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:19:24 -!- buffer [~buffer@2.50.3.116] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:19:44 So systems available to QL:QUICKLOAD do not seem to be readily available to slime-asdf. (At least tab completion won't work) 10:19:52 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:20:36 I was able to type them in manually and successfully load them, though. 10:21:14 killerboy [~mateusz@cdi117.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:22:42 piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.120] has joined #lisp 10:24:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:55 pessoa [~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:20 you would need a slime-quicklisp! 10:30:47 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:32:45 there's a new version of slime-asdf, but i don't really know how it behaves with downloaded systems from quicklisp 10:32:59 that the not-downloaded are not listed, that's for sure 10:37:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:31 -!- mnemonk [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:40:21 bitonic [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 10:42:03 paul0 [~paulo@177.42.34.54] has joined #lisp 10:45:39 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:46:32 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:47:03 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:48:23 -!- LAMMJohnson [~john@5adb68e5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:04 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:34 mnemonk [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:38 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:10 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 11:01:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04:24 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:10 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 11:07:56 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:55 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 11:11:45 mizlev [~mzl@101.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:14:31 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:49 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:20:54 suppose one wants to take a vector, add one to every elt, and return, but only do this for a subset of the values. 11:21:05 for the full vector one can do eg (map 'vector #'(lambda (x) (+ x 1)) *v*) 11:21:23 but map doesn't have a partial sequence option 11:21:45 You could use a displaced array. 11:21:54 But perhaps LOOP would be simpler? 11:21:59 Zhivago: true 11:22:10 Zhivago: i was trying to use loop 11:22:30 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:12 I never use loop. do, do*, dolist, dotimes and so on are cooler. 11:23:48 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 11:24:04 LOOP has things for which it is well suited. 11:24:10 This looks like one of them. 11:26:29 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.60.6] has joined #lisp 11:26:29 -!- mnemonk [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:27:17 *Indecipherable* uses LOOP for almost any iteration =/ 11:27:53 "how do you know that somebody doesn't use LOOP? they tell you!" 11:33:30 series:subseries might be interesting here too 11:33:55 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node355.html#SECTION003426000000000000000 11:35:03 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:39:56 I'm the only one who doesn't use loop, so that's easy 11:41:28 You and 600,000 visual basic programmers. 11:43:39 visul basic is not a lisp dialect, so it does not count. 11:45:28 mnemonk [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:42 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:45:51 Cool = usefull. Thus, LOOP is cool. (But so is DO etc.) 11:46:59 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:16 Methinks we need a separate channel : #loopvsnoloop :p 11:50:06 That's probably general programming philopsophy thing. 11:51:07 No 11:51:32 It's a general cl programming philosophy :p 11:54:55 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-046-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:28 Zhivago: sorry, i meant to say that i was trying to use loop but had problems doing so 12:00:28 i.e. with figuring how to find the index of the values one is iterating over 12:00:33 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-109-10.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:00:59 unless one uses a numerical index and uses elt 12:01:19 but i'm not sure how efficient that is 12:02:48 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 -!- piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:03:14 faheem: Perhaps you should ask a question it? 12:04:09 (defun nil () t) seems to be killing my CCL process here 12:04:22 [3678] Clozure CL kernel debugger: 12:04:37 Isn't that illegal? 12:05:22 well apparently it's not handled explicitely as such in ccl 12:05:28 Value: NIL 12:05:28 Function: # 12:05:34 I saw that and wanted to play :) 12:05:55 (defun nil () t) works fine in Clisp 12:06:03 in sbcl I have [Condition of type SYMBOL-PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR] 12:06:38 Clisp is highly permissive. 12:09:16 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:10:08 why would it be a problem for a 2-lisp, anyways? 12:10:26 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@cdi117.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:11:18 Drak0n41K [~Drak0n41K@109.120.44.226] has joined #lisp 12:11:32 dbushenko [~dim@ec2-54-242-175-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 Because CL doesn't have 2 name spaces. 12:12:51 There is only one name nil. 12:13:13 It has two value spaces. 12:13:36 now (functionp nil) is t? 12:14:42 -!- Dragonling [~Drak0n41K@94.137.36.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:14:55 No more than (functionp 'nil) would be. 12:15:43 killerboy [~mateusz@cdi117.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:15:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:16:30 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:16:44 vert2 [vert2@46.246.119.109] has joined #lisp 12:17:32 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:17:56 stassats: Actually this was about a system in local-projects/ 12:24:48 faheem: (let ((v (subseq *vector* 0 42))) (map-into v #'1+ v) v) 12:25:04 paul graham did not seem to like loop all that much, either, and then he created arc. 12:25:55 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.134] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 12:28:15 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:53 faheem: If you want to change a subseq inside of *vector*, that's possible to with a displaced array instead of the subseq. 12:30:59 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:32:06 -!- Raptum [~cdh473@50.96.145.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:25 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.116.4] has joined #lisp 12:37:14 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:37 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.116.4] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 12:41:36 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.116.4] has joined #lisp 12:43:24 -!- borodust [pauk@stdev.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:43:24 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:54 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:46 -!- Zetetic [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:41 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 12:48:14 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:39 tcr: what version of slime do you have? i suspect maybe the Fare's swank-asdf can list them 12:48:51 (i don't use quicklisp, so i can't easily test it) 12:49:03 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:27 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@125.89.69.219] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 12:55:29 It's a cvs checkout from yesterday 12:55:47 so, that means that it doesn't see them 12:55:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:58:24 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:11 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:00:24 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:52 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: "what do you hope to find, when you're down in the pig mine?" ^^] 13:17:26 chenbing [~user@223.167.179.178] has joined #lisp 13:18:57 borodust [pauk@stdev.org] has joined #lisp 13:22:03 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:19 -!- chenbing [~user@223.167.179.178] has left #lisp 13:32:12 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:36:43 swank-asdf has become quite complicated 13:36:59 indeed 13:37:33 that's just because ASDF keep changing things and doesn't provide good interfaces 13:39:37 I'd only maintain a compatibility window of say a year and throw old junk out after a year. Same's true for swank-sbcl :-) 13:39:43 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:40:00 nice to see the explicit use of utf8 for the protocol 13:41:07 An idea would be to put the utf8 implementation into swank-utf8.lisp and explicitly compile it in swank-loader.lisp only for implementation that actually need it. (The code's producing lots of code-deleted-notes on sbcl.) 13:41:17 sometimes it's easier to add #+with-symbol instead of figuring out how old this feature is 13:41:44 some stuff in swank-sbcl should actually go into sb-introspect I guess 13:42:14 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:30 Also there's lots of external-format cruft which might be thrown out now :-) 13:43:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:44:48 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 13:46:30 well, what i would like is to get a slime which is build upon many independent libraries which can be used without slime 13:47:37 and reuse current libraries, like bordeaux-threads 13:48:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:22 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has joined #lisp 13:50:08 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:05 and of course with an interface which is not gnu emacs, something using commonqt, probably 13:55:17 :-) 13:55:36 I'm wondering what I used before to make complete or indent depending on context 13:56:05 i still use C-M-i 13:57:13 IIRC for C-i to nbe the same as TAB you need a qwerty keyboard or another compliant layout, which azerty is not 13:57:36 same problem with C-[ being ESC, that's qwerty centric, not universal 13:57:59 better switch to qwerty and find or write a good input method for emacs, but well, that's another problem 13:58:10 we care only about white wealthy people with qwerty keyboards! 13:58:28 oh, I'm not complaining 13:59:42 tcr: i was trying to do it without creating a new vector 14:00:10 Zhivago: "ask a question it"? Don't follow 14:00:13 faheem: Yes, you could use a displaced-array for that 14:00:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:00:42 tcr: but that will create an array, albeit at less consing cost, and one which is slower than the original 14:01:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:01:20 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:28 tcr: the idea is to take a contiguous subrange of a vector, and return the values plus one, preferably without creating a temporary vfector 14:01:37 vector, sorry 14:01:58 what are you really trying to do? 14:02:08 tcr: true. but i was informed they were very slow 14:02:36 stassats: what i said above. "take a contiguous subrange of a vector, and return the values plus one" 14:02:52 it's actually quite unfortunate that displaced and arrays with fill-pointers are not optimized well in implementations 14:02:53 in an efficient way, if possible. 14:03:05 faheem: now, that's how you want to do something 14:03:15 not what 14:03:48 stassats: that's a description of my function, so i don't know what you mean 14:03:49 it's called the XY problem 14:04:00 faheem: what problem do you intend to solve when you have that function? 14:04:21 dim: it's a small part of an mcmc simulation 14:05:07 this immediate bit is passing values to a function to simulate dirichlet random variates 14:05:53 i have a complete C++ implementation (which was god awful to write) and i'm trying to rewrite it in CL as an exercise 14:05:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:06:04 urandom__ [~user@p54B0EC13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:22 why do you need to actually increment all the values? can't you just supply to a function something like an offset? 14:06:24 off to dinner, be back later. thanks for the help, everyone 14:07:16 stassats: that's just the function. i don't know what "supply to a function something like an offset" means. sorry 14:07:16 you would process that vector later, wouldn't you? so make that processing functions process them, but adding 1 to each value it processes 14:07:28 map-into of a displaced vector really isn't that bad. 14:07:35 phadthai: ok 14:07:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-94.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:07:49 pkhuong: ok 14:07:52 phadthai: sorry 14:08:34 stassats: this function is right at the bottom of the heap, so to speak. so no, i don't think i can delay that calculation 14:08:46 stassats: though of course i could be wrong 14:09:16 What am I missing that (define-key lisp-mode-map [tab] 'slime-fuzzy-indent-and-complete-symbol) doesn't seem to have any effect? Even when opening a new .lisp file, TAB is still bound to indent-for-tab-command 14:09:34 i wonder how useful disassembly is when comparing different lisp methods for doing the same thing 14:09:50 if the subsequence is tiny, you can write a loop. If it's very long, consider taking a step back and figuring out a cleverer way to do things. 14:10:06 deckeraa [~aaron@97-83-167-14.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:24 tcr: maybe slime-editing-map? 14:12:21 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:52 tcr: although your form works well for me too 14:13:23 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:28 I tried the same for slime-editing-map, slime-mode-map and lisp-mode-map; if I C-x C-e on lisp-mode-map etc. I do see the new entry 14:13:50 LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 14:14:02 I'm on 24.1.1, the ubuntu 12.10 package 14:14:44 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:07 maybe it's just not evaluated? 14:18:08 if I look at the content of the *-map variable, I do see the new entry :-) 14:18:19 I might ask #emacs a bit later 14:18:29 ok, so, then it's added at the wrong time 14:19:36 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:19:38 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.198.110] has joined #lisp 14:20:05 tcr: what about (substitute-key-definition 'indent-for-tab-command 'slime-fuzzy-indent-and-complete-symbol lisp-mode-map)? 14:20:45 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:57 no luck 14:22:26 I have (paredit-mode +1) in lisp-mode-hook 14:22:35 perhaps that's overriding it 14:22:40 it's actually weird that lisp-mode-map has TAB 14:24:23 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:24:36 because it's defined as (define-key global-map "\t" 'indent-for-tab-command) 14:24:44 k0001 [~k0001@host62.186-108-164.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:31:36 quanganhct [defd8ff1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.222.253.143.241] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 hi 14:31:56 anyone there ? 14:32:00 no 14:32:05 lol 14:32:14 I have a question 14:32:41 which should I use to present a table of object ? 14:32:58 that depends on what do you want to do with it 14:32:59 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c_] 14:33:02 2d array or (iist (list ... 14:33:12 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 -!- JamesF [~jef@5ac8b0da.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:34:05 for example I want to create a chess board, each case is an object of class Case 14:34:35 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:34:53 for chess boards, an array, of course 14:35:38 ok tanks 14:35:45 array then 14:35:59 it helps to know why 14:36:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Array_data_structure#Efficiency_comparison_with_other_data_structures 14:36:45 I have only worked with list so far 14:36:53 and never work with array before 14:37:04 but as I used to work in Java, C++ 14:37:31 I know for sure that to access an element in 2d array is much mor easier than in list*list 14:39:30 of course, all the cool chess engines use arrays of 64-bit integers 14:39:57 each integer representing positions of a particular piece 14:40:33 you could also use a network of interrelated cell objects/ 14:41:37 (defun cl:nil is forbidden because it's reserved to the implementation. Also, (fboundp 'cl:nil) should always return nil. 14:42:23 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:49:35 Undefined function FBOUND called with arguments (NIL) . [Condition of type CCL::UNDEFINED-FUNCTION-CALL] 14:49:59 oh. 14:50:01 I need another nap. 14:50:16 CL-USER> (fboundp 'cl:nil) # 14:50:28 apparently it's quite possible to play havoc with CCL here 14:51:09 fun fact: you don't need to quite nil 14:51:13 quote 14:51:49 once you start in these things, why not (makunbound 'nil)? 14:51:59 does that remain true when you managed to attach a function to the symbol? 14:52:08 yes 14:52:43 I meant about the quoting, and I guess yes, but it was more about to say that we are shaking some assumptions apparently 14:53:03 I meant too. 14:53:20 variables and functions leave in separate namespaces 14:53:25 live 14:53:26 live 14:53:29 :-) 14:54:08 now I have Function: # as part of (describe nil) 14:54:23 No. Function values and variable values live in separate value spaces. 14:54:24 I though fmakunbound would clean that up... differently 14:54:30 The name is shared. 14:54:49 there are enough symbols in :your-package why mess with :common-lisp ? 14:54:56 Zhivago: not necessarily 14:55:09 -!- pspace [~andrew@d118-75-192-10.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:55:09 When is it not so? 14:55:12 Zhivago: you can easily implement it with two hashtables 14:55:15 pjb: it was a stupid experiment, I read "you can't assign a function to nil" so I tried 14:55:22 Zhivago: indexed by a symbol 14:55:24 That won't stop cl:nil from being cl:nil. 14:55:31 cl:nil is the name. 14:55:40 You can use that name to look up values in various value spaces. 14:55:43 i don't understand what were your objection then 14:55:59 stassats: your phrasing was confusing 14:56:06 There aren't two spaces for the name cl:nil. 14:56:22 there's a single symbol cl:nil, that does not depend on the fact that you want to use a variable or a function 14:56:26 *stassats* knows better than to argue with Zhivago 14:56:43 I don't think variables and functions lives in different namespaces 14:56:57 but I'm still trying to get to understand those things 14:57:51 The nature of export should make it clear -- one name, n values. 14:57:55 you can have functions and variables with the same name, if it doesn't meant that there's at least two namespaces, then i don't know what means that 14:57:56 dim try: (let ((foo 42)) (flet ((foo () 33)) (list foo (foo)))) 14:58:58 stassats: It means that there are two value spaces, indexed by the one name. 14:59:05 whatever 14:59:18 this is so pointless 14:59:20 stassats: Packages provide multiple namespaces. 14:59:25 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:59:45 I suggest that you go shopping. 15:00:00 pjb: in both cases there's only one symbol foo in the current package, right? 15:00:00 certainly 15:00:09 dim yes 15:00:44 the namespaces provided by packages and the namespaces provided by lisp-2 are different. 15:00:52 well, i can't leave it at that, can't i? 15:00:58 clhs glossary/namespace 15:00:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#namespace 15:01:06 (let ((foo 42)) (flet ((foo () 33)) (describe foo))) 15:01:12 Zhivago: look there, two meanings 15:01:19 that's interesting, as it only covers the variable, not the function 15:01:20 package namespaces are for strings, since packages map strings to symbols. Other things in lisp are named by symbols, not strings. 15:01:22 now I'm confused 15:01:51 namespace itself has two namespaces 15:01:58 what a joy! 15:01:59 dim that's because flet defines a lexical function: the body of describe is outside this lexical scope, so it cannot see it. 15:02:42 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:02:51 And this incoherence causes problems. 15:03:03 dim describe only sees the dynamic functions and macro bound to symbol-function and macro-function eg. with defun, defgeneric and defmacro. 15:03:25 pjb: (let ((foo 42)) (flet ((foo () 33)) (list (foo) (describe foo)))) ; that return (33 nil) so I think foo is visible from where I'm doing describe 15:03:30 well, i maybe not sending shopping people who are quoting CLHS will cause less problems 15:03:36 s/i// 15:03:47 oh, didn't read about describe specifics yet 15:03:49 Zhivago: or let you play nice tricks, like loading code in a different package to give it a different meaning. 15:04:26 dim it's not about describe but about defun and flet. 15:05:24 pjb: I think that you mean 'reading code' rather than loading. 15:05:35 No, I meant CL:LOAD. 15:05:35 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.252.174] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 15:05:35 well describe is given a lexically bound symbol, bound as a variable by let and as a function by flet, but somehow can't see the function binding, right? 15:06:11 Zhivago: having in-package forms in the files only tries to prevent a different interpretation. cl:in-package would work better. 15:06:39 dim: (describe 'foo) would. (describe foo) describes 42. 15:06:58 Print name: "FOO" Value: # Function: # 15:07:05 dim: describe is a function 15:07:18 who can't know your lexical scopes. 15:07:30 ASau [~user@217.118.90.233] has joined #lisp 15:07:42 you can use (describe #'foo) 15:08:14 yeah, then I force it to see the function and I have # 15:09:22 so, isn't that in contradiction with the single symbol hosting both a variable value and a function value? 15:09:29 faust45_ [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 or is it that functions will resolve 'real parameters' (bindings) as variable only? 15:09:52 not in the slightest 15:09:52 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:10:08 there's something happening in there that I don't grok, for sure 15:10:14 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:10:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-192-102-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:11:39 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.116.4] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 15:11:59 since one name is used to name different things, it has to be qualified differently when used, functions are called as (foo x), where function value of FOO should be bound to a function 15:12:15 it can't be (let ((foo (lambda (x) x)) (foo 10))) 15:13:02 the same goes if you have a local functions, you can't refer to it just by using FOO, you need to use #'FOO 15:13:09 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.146] has joined #lisp 15:13:51 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 in the case of describe when given foo, foo is evaluated (by who?) before describe sees it, right? 15:15:46 PuercoPo` [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 15:15:51 a macro could do both the variable value and the function value lookup, which I though describe was doing... 15:15:53 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-58-195.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:53 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-58-195.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:15:53 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:15:56 yes, describe is a function 15:16:11 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 15:16:56 i guess you're confused because you're trying to understand separate of global scope and lexical scope and separation of functions and variables at the same time 15:17:09 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:24 lots of things in CL are hard this way 15:19:00 so I made a defun fib and a setq fib, and now describe sees both, Print name: "FIB" Value: 42 Function: # 15:19:23 that's with (describe 'fib) 15:19:33 that's because they are global 15:19:36 of course, (describe fib) will only get see the variable binding 15:19:56 with global functions, you can do (symbol-value 'fib) and (symbol-function 'fib) 15:20:34 so why in (flet ((foo () 33)) (describe 'foo)) describe is not seeing foo function's value? 15:20:43 because it's lexical, goddamn it! 15:21:00 but the describe call is well within the lexical scope, right? 15:21:07 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:11 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:21:11 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 the body of describe is outside 15:21:20 dim that's because flet defines a lexical function: the body of describe is outside this lexical scope, so it cannot see it. 15:22:00 ok now I think I understant which part I don't understand :) 15:23:11 dim http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Variables 15:23:51 it would help if you first understood lexical vs dynamic scope of variables 15:24:00 (let ((foo 42)) (describe 'foo)) Value: # Function: # --> I expected Value to be 42, that's where I'm lost, but at least it looks easier to understand as it's both the same behavior 15:24:01 and then it's the same for functions 15:24:36 I though I did understand, and it seems to be related to variable against bindings more than to scope here 15:25:07 *stassats* tries to confuse dim some more: (let ((foo 42)) (declare (special foo)) (describe 'foo)) 15:25:36 I expect describe to now see that 'foo has the value 42 15:25:47 Print name: "FOO" Value: 42 Function: # 15:25:48 yeah 15:26:01 because it's special, which is to say, a dynamic binding 15:26:15 how about (let ((foo 42)) (declare (special foo)) (let ((foo 35)) (describe 'foo)))? 15:26:26 42 15:26:37 yeah 15:26:51 the inner foo, we said, is not in the scope 15:27:28 what I don't get is that when doing (let ((foo 42)) (+ 1 foo)), it's in the scope 15:27:39 I don't well get the difference between foo and 'foo scope here 15:27:45 because it's right there 15:27:50 lexical means "textual" 15:28:29 why 'foo isn't right there in the body of (let ((foo 42)) ...)? 15:28:31 foo is inside the parentheses of the let 15:28:59 dim: because it's inside the definition of describe 15:29:01 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:29:14 and its text is outside of that LET 15:30:16 dim: (let ((foo 42)) (flet ((test () foo)) (let ((foo 32)) (test)))) 15:30:33 if I (describe foo) from within the lexical scope, it's ok, describe is given the value bound to the symbol, I guess the reader is doing that 15:30:52 and (let ((foo 42)) (flet ((test () (declare (special foo)) foo)) (let ((foo 32)) (declare (special foo)) (test)))) 15:31:07 ah, closures now 15:31:32 oh no, it's not about closures! 15:31:36 ok no surprise here 15:31:43 it's about scope 15:31:50 well the first example here makes test into a closure, right? 15:31:56 but ok let's focus on scope only 15:31:58 that's irrelevant 15:32:13 fair enough 15:32:32 the body of test is outside of (let ((foo 32)) ...), although it's called from inside of it 15:33:04 right 15:33:17 same thing with describe 15:33:55 so which component of lisp is evaluating the foo symbol when doing (let ((foo 42)) (describe foo))? 15:34:28 let's call it "evaluator" 15:34:57 the reader is responsible for associating bindings to symbols, right? 15:35:03 no 15:35:18 reader reads 15:35:21 textual representation (string) to symbol, then 15:35:40 evaluator, or a special case of evaluator, compiler 15:36:03 read-eval-print, so when we know foo is a symbol we already are talking about eval? 15:36:17 t 15:36:35 minion: LiSP? 15:36:35 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 15:36:50 maybe implementing a lisp will help you understand that 15:37:30 and 'foo means not evaluated, so describe gets to see the symbol itself, which I though was bound to both a value and a function 15:38:08 it is, but only in the *lexical* scope. and describe is not in there. 15:38:48 can you (declare (special #'foo))? 15:39:05 (let ((foo 42)) (describe foo)) can be transformed by the compiler into (describe 42) 15:39:21 no, you can't 15:39:40 well it's called defun 15:40:20 well, no, if you want an analogue, it's (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda ())) 15:40:45 it's hard to admit I still had problems with lexical scope, though 15:40:54 but it has indefinite extent, as opposed to (eclare special) 15:41:12 (declare special) has dynamic extent 15:41:26 *stassats* decides to confuse dim some more by using extents 15:41:34 but in the case of (let ((foo 42)) (describe foo)) of course describe will never know that we've been calling it on a symbol named foo, all it sees is what the evaluator did evaluate before hand 15:41:58 -!- mnemonk [~jonasl@c-46-162-74-52.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:43:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43:43 fdefinition accesses the current global function definition named by FUNCTION-NAME. 15:43:45 how about http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html ? 15:44:06 so the global environment is not dynamic/special? 15:44:14 I'm in (info "(ansicl) fdefinition") already 15:44:33 no, it's not about fdefinition, it's a chapter named "Scope and Extent" 15:44:41 and global is the same as dynamic special 15:45:09 ah. (info "(ansicl) Extent") maybe 15:45:38 although global may also imply indefinite extent 15:45:44 loke_ [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:45:44 it's subtle 15:47:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:48:40 Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.113.173] has joined #lisp 15:49:11 it is convenient to define dynamic scope to mean indefinite scope and dynamic extent 15:49:16 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:36 ok for the extent part, the subtle part seems to be about the "indefinite" here 15:50:11 pspace [~andrew@adsl-99-55-180-17.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 well indefinite extent read like "we don't know when it will get garbage collected" and indefinite scope (+ dynamic extent) is the same as special 15:51:23 as your doc saith: "Thus we speak of ``special'' variables as having dynamic scope, or being dynamically scoped, because they have indefinite scope and dynamic extent: a special variable can be referred to anywhere as long as its binding is currently in effect." 15:51:45 no, indefinite doesn't mean that it will disappear any minute 15:51:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@cdi117.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:05 it's more like "unlimited" 15:52:16 -!- djuber` [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:28 killerboy [~mateusz@aaii60.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:52:32 djuber` [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:46 dynamic scope is not really used nowadays 15:54:39 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 15:55:21 even when sharing some data between threads? 15:55:38 the term, i meant 15:56:28 or maybe it is, and i just don't hear it that often 15:57:08 or just imagining things 15:57:12 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:22 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:26 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:26 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:58:46 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 hehe 16:00:57 killerbo1 [~mateusz@eat76.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:00:57 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@aaii60.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:04:23 -!- pspace [~andrew@adsl-99-55-180-17.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:04:35 progv is one of the coolest forms in common lisp 16:04:50 and which nobody uses 16:04:54 -!- SaidinWoT [~sfrazier@66.96.251.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:05:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-136.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:07:14 -!- killerbo1 [~mateusz@eat76.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:08:58 MerryChristmsas [~MC@146.185.24.207] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-71-228.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:34 hi, I often have: Attempt to access unrecorded object (id (FRAME-VAR 1 0 6)). 16:14:50 is it possible to make it retain objects for longer when debugging (sbcl)? 16:15:25 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.194] has joined #lisp 16:15:28 just don't copy and paste them 16:15:41 stassats: so how can I push them to repl? 16:15:57 store the objects in specials 16:16:02 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 inspect the presentation, then press M-RET 16:16:17 tcr, stassats - thx 16:16:26 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.60.81] has joined #lisp 16:16:54 M-RET on the desired part 16:17:21 yup, it worked 16:17:22 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:36 Did it? I must be confused, that seems to be rather unrelated 16:17:48 jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-67.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:18:00 well, I was copying objects from stacktrace resulting from (break "") 16:18:04 so related 16:18:19 I guess I must read more carefully 16:18:31 M-RET copies the object to the repl, not the presentation, as when with just copy-pasting 16:18:32 M-RET works in inspector, but not in frames 16:18:46 as I noticed 16:18:48 Anyway, objects cease being available via presentations when they are garbage collected 16:19:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:11 seems like they were not GCed, they never made it to repl rather 16:19:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:39 *dim* still reading about scope and all (info "(ansicl) Introduction to Environments") 16:21:13 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 -!- quanganhct [defd8ff1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.222.253.143.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:22:51 LAMMJohnson [~john@user-5AF432F7.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-94.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:25:48 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 so you can have functions in the global environment and in the current lexical environment, but not in the current dynamic environment 16:29:44 -!- vexy [~vexy@37.244.191.136] has quit [Quit: vexy] 16:30:49 -!- pessoa [~pessoa@188-195-211-39-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Started wasting time elsewhere] 16:31:52 Well. Condition handlers are functions and they are bound dynamically. :-) 16:32:28 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:29 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.113.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:48 Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.113.173] has joined #lisp 16:32:49 well, you can unwind-protect ... (setf (fdefinition x) old-definition) 16:32:50 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-142-194.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:22 not entirely the same thing, though 16:33:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 k0001_ [~k0001@host159.181-1-165.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:36:34 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:13 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:37:32 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host62.186-108-164.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:38:18 ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has joined #lisp 16:39:37 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has joined #lisp 16:39:44 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.92.149.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:40:38 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:17 stat_vi 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18:05:09 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:05:44 displaced vectors are indeed very slow. i did a timing comparison. http://paste.lisp.org/display/134276 18:06:19 strangely, making a copy with subseq is actually faster and has less consing 18:06:30 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host159.181-1-165.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:07:03 this is with sbcl 1.1.1 on debian squeeze 18:09:35 you're not using the results, so sbcl may throw away some computations 18:11:02 stassats: true. could that make a big difference? 18:11:20 it can 18:13:04 stassats: ok. any suggestions for modifying the computation to be less biased? 18:13:22 it's better to test it as (defun test1 (vector) (let ((v (subseq vector 2 4))) (map-into v #'1+ v) v)) 18:13:36 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:37 and then (dotiems (i 100000000) (test1 *v*)) 18:13:38 and so on 18:13:43 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:18:35 the faster will be (let ((new-vector (make-array 2))) (loop for i from 2 below 4 for j from 0 do (setf (aref new-vector j) (1+ (aref vector i)))) new-vector) 18:19:24 the fastest 18:19:45 i mean, without involving SIMD or whatnot 18:21:41 displaced conses a lot because of make-array call not being inlined 18:21:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:22:13 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.83] has joined #lisp 18:22:53 -!- mizlev [~mzl@101.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: mizlev] 18:24:07 and it easily supersedes consing a vector of 2 18:25:39 pspace [~andrew@adsl-99-55-180-17.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:15 BountyX [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-133.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:51 kliph`` [~user@24.213.119.183] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 -!- pspace [~andrew@adsl-99-55-180-17.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:17 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: immediate death] 18:31:12 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:39 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 18:33:51 faheem: with a vector of length 2^20, and creating (subseq vector 2), displaced vector is faster than SUBSEQ 18:34:06 the explicit loop is still the fastest, of course 18:35:05 well, faster still would be using indeces and expressing transformations in form of functions 18:35:11 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:26 cfdm [~user@116.126.96.159] has joined #lisp 18:35:29 e.g., :start :end and :key arguments to FIND, POSITION and friends 18:35:33 kofno_ [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:45 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:08 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:07 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:40:05 stassats: thanks for the suggestions. I'm making a note of them 18:40:18 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 18:42:12 stassats: what difference does defining a function make? 18:46:20 k0001 [~k0001@host254.190-224-55.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:48:12 mizlev [~mzl@101.Red-79-154-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 to compiler optimization? it could be a lot 18:50:46 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 jewel: oh, really? hmm 18:51:43 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 Bike [~Glossina@75-164-165-162.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 weird. (time (dotimes (i 100000000) (let ((new-vector (make-array 2))) (loop for i from 2 below 4 for j from 0 do (setf (aref new-vector j) (1+ (aref *v* i)))) new-vector))) takes 6 seconds. did i make a mistake? 19:03:11 seems odd it would be so much faster than the others 19:04:12 no, it's just so fast 19:04:36 stassats: cool 19:04:58 though i don't understand why there is so much difference 19:05:18 the compiler can't always produce optimial code 19:05:30 in the optimal case, it would be the same for all cases 19:05:59 i mean, with the most optimal compiler, there would be no performance difference 19:06:18 but such compiler does not exist 19:06:24 stassats: so this construction happens to produce better code? 19:06:48 yes, it gives the compiler the most information about the problem 19:08:07 you would get even better results if you declare proper types for your arrays 19:08:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:09:01 stassats: ok. big differences. 19:09:30 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 19:10:12 -!- BountyX [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-133.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:39 tesuji [~tesuji@mnhm-590c1fed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:10 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@mnhm-590c1fed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:02 but for ultimate performance, you have to do as little copying as possible 19:13:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:13:36 malpas [~al@3.Red-88-26-237.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:08 funny, switching aref to elt drops this down to over 8 secs. 19:14:33 i thought they were equivalent 19:14:38 no, elt also works on lists 19:14:59 so, aref with a single subscript knows that that can only be a vector 19:15:04 stassats: so, aref is more efficient on vectors? or it just depends? 19:15:14 webo___ [~al@83.Red-81-32-76.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:19 no, if you declare the type of the vector, elt will be just as fast 19:15:24 if you put in some (declare (type array ...) ...) the elt might be compiled as an aref 19:15:33 stassats: oh, i see 19:15:41 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 clhs svref 19:15:47 Bike: i see 19:15:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_svref.htm 19:15:51 there's also that 19:15:54 or an svref, yeah 19:15:57 stassats: thanks 19:16:08 it should be faster than just aref 19:16:25 not heard of that 19:16:29 wouldn't work on displaced arrays, naturally 19:16:32 -!- webo___ [~al@83.Red-81-32-76.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:48 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 19:16:49 *stassats* waits for someone to interject "displaced arrays can be simple too"! 19:16:54 they can? 19:17:11 yeah, now it is down to 3.6. impressive 19:17:26 Bike: "It is implementation-dependent whether displaced arrays, vectors with fill pointers, or arrays that are actually adjustable are simple arrays." 19:17:31 that same computation takes like 90-100 secs with displaced arrays 19:18:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-94.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:18:30 displaced can in theory be quite fast, the problem is that the operators that work on them are not inlined 19:18:44 -!- malpas [~al@3.Red-88-26-237.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:18:47 and inderection, of course 19:18:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-94.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:19:19 oh, so like, arrays that aren't displaced are certainly displaced arrays, but arrays that are displaced are not certainly not simple arrays 19:19:27 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:37 if you mean are certainly simple, then yes 19:20:02 er, yes. 19:20:35 "If make-array is called with adjustable, fill-pointer, and displaced-to each nil, then the result is a simple array." 19:20:48 "If make-array is called with one or more of adjustable, fill-pointer, or displaced-to being true, whether the resulting array is a simple array is implementation-dependent." 19:21:36 an implentation can be just lazy and say "whatever, let's make them all simple", not optimize anything and be equally slow 19:22:39 there seems to be some circularity here - see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ar.htm#simple-array 19:23:23 "an optimist thinks two objects are just as fast and the pessimist thinks they are just as slow" 19:23:46 -!- kliph`` [~user@24.213.119.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:47 faheem: what circularity? 19:23:56 kliph`` [~user@24.213.119.183] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 stassats: in this page, simple array is defined as "is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, and is not expressly adjustable" 19:27:03 So -> "If make-array is called with adjustable, fill-pointer, and displaced-to each nil, then the result is a simple array." 19:27:09 well, yeah 19:27:29 still unclear what a simple array is when it is at home 19:27:38 basically, it's guaranteed that an undisplaced etc. array is a simple-array, but it's not guaranteed that a displaced etc. array is not a simple-array 19:28:12 it exists so that you can declare things as simple-arrays and get performance benefits 19:28:50 it's not about semantics 19:28:54 stassats: yes, the page talks about "specialized representation" which means you can make some assumptions, i suppose 19:29:08 though i don't know what those are 19:32:10 pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-133.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-156-138.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:48 -!- pspace [~andrew@wsip-98-175-224-133.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37:36 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 -!- spiderweb is now known as pdp11 19:40:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has quit 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[~mommer@mnhm-590c048c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:33 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A6C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:10:56 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:16:07 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:29 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:22:30 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host71.186-125-151.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:22:55 k0001 [~k0001@host71.186-125-151.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:28:20 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:39 is there a good way to insert multiple elements into a vector at once, or should one just do vector-push multiple times? 21:29:11 replace, maybe? 21:32:28 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 21:33:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:21 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:33:25 -!- Ralt_ is now known as Ralt 21:33:31 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:33:41 snearch [~snearch@g225149009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:45 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:33:49 Ralt_ [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:30 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:35:50 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:37:15 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 21:38:33 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-231-104.w86-209.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:03 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:32 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:44:11 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:41 jeti` [~user@p548EAC26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:04 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:47:36 k0001_ [~k0001@host216.190-137-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:50:43 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host71.186-125-151.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:52:39 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:23 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:21 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 21:56:24 Bike: thanks for the suggestion, though here the second sequence overwrites parts of the first sequence, if i understand correctly 21:56:45 concatenate is also a possibility, though there would be a whole lotta copying going on in that case 21:57:56 Question: I'm creating a little procedural advice module that is independent of standard method combination but does similar things. When defining an around-method or invoking call-next-method, there has to be an explicit linkage argument so call-next-method can keep track of what's going on. 21:58:22 What would be a good conventional name for this argument? 21:58:22 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:31 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:58:36 next-method? 21:58:47 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:50 merry Lispmas :) 21:58:56 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:27 It's not the next-method, though, it's a cookie that next-method uses. Under wraps, it is a list of next-methods. 21:59:42 jcowan: without knowing more ... :linkage ? 21:59:46 next-methods? 21:59:54 drewc: That's an idea 22:00:10 Bike: That exposes the implementation mechanism, and I want to be able in principle to replace that mechanism. 22:00:23 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225149009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:00:27 fwiw,I use next-method for such things... 22:01:10 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-213-12-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:01:12 That would suggest to me something callable, which this is not. You still have to invoke "super" to actually call it. 22:02:03 though, for a list? what is wrong with :method-combination list ? or something simmilar? or : what are you doing the requires standard methods even though it requires more/less? 22:02:32 jcowan: well, with standard combination you have next-methods even though you have to use them with call-method. 22:02:32 tcr [~tcr@88-134-109-42-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 A list is just the implementation. 22:02:46 This is meant to be portable to lisps lacking std method combination. 22:02:51 so each object has :reader super? 22:03:09 There are no class objects here, only procedures. 22:03:19 oh .. so not ANSI common lisp... 22:03:23 hi drewc 22:05:06 and there are no generic functions then? or any classes in this language? I cannot help you there then without knowing more about the language, and it will likely take me too long to learn it :) 22:05:15 tcr: greetings! 22:05:39 It will work in ANSI CL too, it just doesn't depend on CLOS in any way. 22:06:10 drewc: have you got your documentation system up to a usable point? 22:06:56 You say (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (advise #'foo)), and then you can call before-advice, after-advice, and/or around-advice to add advice. 22:07:31 i'm curious what lisp you're using that has symbol-function and not CLOS. 22:07:50 elisp! 22:07:58 oh, great. 22:08:06 That's just the appropriate notation for CL. In the Scheme version you say (set! foo (advise foo)). 22:08:33 if you're writing different versions anyway, why not use clos for the CL version? 22:08:33 I don't know Elisp well enough yet, but the ideas should work okay there too, given lexical let. 22:08:47 The point of it is to be lightweight. 22:08:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:58 tcr: kinda sorta? It is usable for me... and produces decent docs, and Iwould not mind others working on it to fill in the rest ... 22:09:25 tcr : http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-9 is what it produces 22:09:44 -!- kofno_ [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:02 tcr: and https://github.com/drewc/drewc.org has the 'code' 22:12:40 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:14:28 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.42.34.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:15:54 tcr: oh! and here is what the code produces, org-mode .org files : 22:15:57 https://github.com/drewc/drewc.org/blob/master/monad.org 22:16:52 ok thanks I will check it out 22:17:04 whicj of course emacs can export in to text, LaTeX, html, blog, etc 22:17:17 s/cj/ch 22:17:45 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:12 tcr: and if you have any questions/comments/bad things to say, I am all 'eyes'. 22:19:18 but, basically, the code 'works' as such, and that is really all I have that is good to say about it, beyond 'yay docs!' . 22:20:45 it was made so I had no excuse for not putting out a 'hyperspec' style doc, and it will soon have hyperlinks! :P 22:23:28 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:59 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:25:21 the code is surprisingly short 22:25:25 and,fwiw, http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-5 has a program which can parse outline-mode style files (like org-mode for example) in CL... so my plan is to parse the .org back into lisp forms and not have to use emacs to export the docs 22:25:48 yeah, the way I use packages helps there 22:26:04 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 22:26:29 and, the fact that I am missing a whole bunch of -documentation fns 22:26:56 so it really only works for interfaces and generic functions/methods 22:27:15 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:27:31 Have you ever played with defining a package with each class? It solves the public/"private" slots and the accessor naming scheme. 22:27:59 heh ... I actually do that kind of sort of ... 22:28:30 one package per file 22:28:35 and, heh ... 22:28:45 Btw. I'm going to take a sailing course next march in cape town 22:28:52 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:13 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:29 tcr: i wish you good weather! 22:29:33 https://github.com/drewc/lisp-interface-library/tree/interface/monad/interface/monad <-- pretty much one CLASS per file 22:29:58 drewc: ...and one package per file? 22:30:21 tcr: w00t! I wish you 'not so good' weather, for that means better sailing :) 22:31:01 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:25 prxq: always, I _have_ to do one package per file, because that is how me dependencies work and how my LOAD-PACKAGES-AND-DEPENDENCIES works :) 22:31:33 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 22:31:59 and not one file per package? 22:32:19 stassats: nope ... 22:32:40 oh .. it not commited yet ... 22:33:02 but I have file that defines a package, 22:33:32 which is not related to the file location, 22:34:00 ohhh ...wait ... I decided it was. 22:35:13 oh! but I do have a number of files that DEFPACKAGE foo/bar (:use) and the IN-PACKAGE a different package .. 22:35:36 but they must have a package 22:36:00 named after the file location 22:37:29 and if you look at https://github.com/drewc/lisp-interface-library/blob/interface/monad/interface/monad/test/monad/monads.lisp , 22:38:01 you can see :import-from with the package only, not importing anything... 22:38:55 that is simply to say "this package depends on that package", which is needed for the loading code. 22:40:03 how do you see those in the resulting package object? 22:40:13 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:11 well, duh, you have to process the thing yourself - to make it load the dependencies before you can finally load the file 22:41:16 I do not know ... I simply READ the DEFPACKAGE form and go through it myself. 22:41:21 exactly 22:42:07 so soon it can be cl.net:defpackage, which will have package aliases ;) 22:43:06 drewc: that looks similar to faslpath, have you seen it? 22:43:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:14 yup 22:43:16 i'd expect all this packaging to have the same detrimental effect of private/public/etc stuff in c++: it will just stand in the way and be a nuisance, while only protecting you from very rare troubles. 22:43:56 but then I tend to have one package per functional unit 22:44:06 that was my expectation as well ... it did not work out that way 22:44:14 yup, so do we 22:44:30 drewc: what is the trick? 22:44:51 and one functional unit per file ... with a possible other file combining them. 22:45:15 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:19 the nice thing about CL's packaging system is it doesn't prevent you from accessing internal symbols. One colon vs two colons is communication from code writer to code reader 22:45:36 well, all of my source contains .lisp files that need to be loaded in a certain order... 22:46:08 my DEFPACKAGE form says what order they need to be in, + defines a package! 22:46:32 it's quite a stretch. It sounds to me you should use a DEFMODULE which might also expand to a defpackage. 22:46:52 clhs defmodule 22:46:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for defmodule. 22:47:11 I like things that are in all CL's:) 22:47:12 that's my point :-) 22:47:21 you are adding semantics which is not 22:47:30 yup 22:47:49 drewc: perhaps I define "functional unit" a lot wider than you 22:48:08 but, there are other reason why one package per file makes it good. 22:48:36 basically, as long as it sort-of belongs together, and doesn't become unwieldy, it's one package and a couple of large files. 22:48:38 so, I not mind have the deps in there , because it means that I generate the .asd 22:49:09 https://github.com/drewc/lisp-interface-library/blob/interface/monad/interface-monad.asd 22:49:19 *prxq* finds editing his asd's very rarely 22:49:27 prxq: I used to do that as well 22:49:40 say, until Mar 2012? 22:50:16 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:54 drewc: i guess then you wrote your .asd generator :-) 22:51:06 so, a long time of numerous files in one package .. 8 - 9 years. 22:51:25 I started with an asd generator, but now I write them by hand :-) 22:52:01 sure, other people may want to use my library via ASDF 22:52:19 so, that is part of my API .. one system per file 22:52:22 come to think of it, I have a lot of specialized packages working together. So quite likely I'm not doing anything too different from what drewc does. 22:52:51 automatic differentiation here, ode's over there, linear algebra behind that rock, etc. 22:53:26 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:28 http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-8-3 <-- the literate test for asdfin that library 22:53:55 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:59 *drewc* glares at his spacebar and goes looking for a replacement 22:54:17 -!- Sosumi [~Lain@bl14-124-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:20 drewc: what keyboard do you own? 22:54:43 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:54:45 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:49 you-can-just-use- 22:55:06 *drewc* looks around ... 22:55:29 7 thinkpad keyboards for my ... 8 thinkpads 22:55:33 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-103-189-40.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:06 (one is a tablet, so has an onscreen keyboard and runs android) 22:56:10 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:56:41 *prxq* was about to order a "das keyboard" thing, but decided it was too expensive 22:57:07 my current logitech has a locking enter key problem. 22:57:23 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has joined #lisp 22:57:49 I used to own a number of keyboards ... but I live on a sailboat, so pc towers and external things are not-so-great 22:58:12 drewc: you live on a sailboat? Wow! 22:58:36 thinkpads,otoh, are very very nice! 22:59:47 drewc: btw, did you get my reply to your mail? 23:00:28 prxq: yup, have since ... late 2008 or so. It is kind of like working in CL... there are not many, but those who do know their stuff. 23:01:53 prxq: which email was that? I likely _have_, but it was probably in an old mailbox or something that I am 'cutting out', and so have not yet re-replied. 23:04:46 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:05:24 *jasom* likes his unicomp keyboard 23:05:27 drewc: I replied to an email you sent me on November 09 23:05:47 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:50 drewc: and I replied on November 16 :-) 23:07:01 Faceys [~faceys@69.11.71.113] has joined #lisp 23:08:07 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:12 prxq: the das keyboard does seem expensive; are the cherry mx blue's that much better than what is in the unicomp classic? 23:09:59 jasom: I have no idea. 23:10:08 prxq: also for $10 more I think you can get unicomps with the control key in the right place, though it's an easy software fix so I haven't done it 23:10:36 prxq: hrm... I do not see it! try re-sending it to drewc at drewc dot org... that is in my emacs so I will so it :) 23:11:40 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:44 drewc: ...done 23:12:00 quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has joined #lisp 23:12:15 What's the name of the Lisp macro that evalutes a form at compile time? Something like COMPILER-VALUE? 23:12:21 (Not eval-when, which can be used for the same purpose.) 23:12:26 Am I misremembering this thing? 23:12:30 re you thinking of load-time-value? 23:12:37 prxq: got it, and yay! :D 23:12:41 Bike: Ah, yes. Thanks! 23:12:59 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:20 drewc: :) 23:13:46 -!- Faceys [~faceys@69.11.71.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:00 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has left #lisp 23:14:54 jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 23:15:30 Does anyone understand why around-methods are passed the args rather than the results of the inner procedure? 23:15:40 I know that they are, but I don't understand why. 23:15:57 er, they're called before the inner procedure is, for one? 23:16:03 s/around/after 23:16:09 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 23:16:14 sorry 23:16:32 well, because they're not intended to modify the results or anything 23:16:40 after and before methods are for bookkeeping..... 23:16:43 (a) because they need to specialize on the same arguments as the generic function (b) because they are to "do some stuff after the main method has run" 23:16:54 they won't replace what the primary did 23:17:02 just surround it 23:17:10 and do other stuff 23:18:13 (a) I understand. 23:18:53 (b) I understand that they are to be run for effect, but the effect seems like it might want to take advantage of the value(s) returned. 23:19:40 So for example, if you are implementing method tracing, a before-method could print the arguments, but an after-method could not print the results; you need an around-method to do the latter. 23:19:49 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:20:00 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:39 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:41 guess you could write your own method combination to do that. 23:21:16 method-tracing is a perfect example of :around, really 23:21:40 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:24:25 you want to intercept the "normal" operation and do stuff... well, around it 23:26:24 *jcowan* nods. 23:26:30 Well, the Scheme version of the package is written. 23:31:40 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-161-220.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 23:35:11 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.197.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:36:08 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-150-54.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:31 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:37:31 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 23:38:55 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@122.167.113.173] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:39:16 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:39:47 k0001 [~k0001@host64.186-125-105.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:41:20 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-150-54.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:42:50 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host216.190-137-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:43:14 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:25 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:21 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:55 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:53 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:57:30 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-11-57.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:58:16 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec]