00:00:26 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:02:17 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:44 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:21 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 00:05:21 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:06:24 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:06:48 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 00:08:58 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:18 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 00:11:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:54 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 00:19:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:20:16 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.201.44] has joined #lisp 00:21:29 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:22:20 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:51 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:39:12 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:40:46 cosfx [~cosfx@ip68-97-83-6.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:03 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.129.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:18 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:55 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:44 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176495102.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:59:09 -!- Guest90418 [Guest90418@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:59:14 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:59:40 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 01:02:22 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-a9cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:25 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:04:38 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:29 Guest90418 [Guest90418@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 01:08:32 RocksHound [~rtc@96-38-238-134.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:22 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.80.5] has joined #lisp 01:11:27 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-177-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:14:24 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 01:14:51 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.181.13] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 01:16:28 Natch [~Natch@c-a9cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:19:13 -!- Guest90418 [Guest90418@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:19:31 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:23:48 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:24:19 -!- cosfx [~cosfx@ip68-97-83-6.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:24:43 cosfx [~cosfx@ip68-97-83-6.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:54 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-133-38.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:34 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.202.232] has joined #lisp 01:33:42 -!- Corvidiu1 [~cosman246@202.183.249.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:37:28 Guest90418 [Guest90418@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 01:38:33 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:41:49 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-218-154.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:41:56 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@63.251.54.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:43:37 -!- Guest90418 [Guest90418@218.59.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:52 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:47:39 -!- cosfx [~cosfx@ip68-97-83-6.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:55:59 -!- v0|d` [~user@95.9.238.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:56:04 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has quit [] 02:00:39 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has left #lisp 02:01:03 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:11:57 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:14:35 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:15:23 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:35 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:24:13 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 02:32:30 -!- BeLucid_ [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:33:40 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:38:09 agumonkey [~agu@243.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:57 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:45:43 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 02:46:41 Guest9041 [~jimmy@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 02:49:01 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.202.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:58:27 -!- Guest9041 [~jimmy@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:00:22 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:07 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.141.47] has joined #lisp 03:08:28 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:08:41 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:12:31 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 03:14:56 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:15:51 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:21 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:16:21 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:31 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:17:17 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:26 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:24:12 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:27:07 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:30:08 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 03:30:31 -!- KingNato [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:31:51 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-165-67.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:31:55 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:33:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-114-236.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:37:32 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 03:37:45 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@184.89.111.53] has left #lisp 03:39:00 Guest9041 [~jimmy@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 03:41:30 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:46:20 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 03:47:25 Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 03:47:31 So I hope I'm not flamed for this.. but has anyone tried compiling SBCL using the Visual C compiler? 03:47:50 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:47:50 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:53  03:49:15 zulu_inuoe: afaik won't work, but doable in the future 03:49:51 zulu_inuoe: INSTALL says it only supports GNU and Sun toolchains (though it's out of date, I think they added LLVM recently?) 03:50:52 -!- Guest9041 [~jimmy@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:52:20 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.80.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:52:32 10 4. Thanks 03:52:47 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 03:55:04 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 03:55:26 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 03:55:54 KingNato [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:56:09 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:01 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:58:14 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:46 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:02:12 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:02:23 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 04:02:55 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:04 -!- benny [~user@i577A7F1C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:07:08 is anyone here using CLORB or other CORBA technology with CL? 04:15:31 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:17 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:18:38 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:20:28 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:20:53 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:21:12 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-vwxfdnmovobflskj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:21:12 -!- sytse [sytse@vps.swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:21:12 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:21:13 -!- pjb-v [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:21:13 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:21:13 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:21:13 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:21:15 -!- varjagg [u4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-edtdcumiujwlvrxd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:21:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:54 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pwxkizjbbsbehddl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:22:42 -!- Gurragchaa [u6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jwwcagxztxoovqht] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:23:11 -!- typeclassy [~user@ool-ae2ceba4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:22 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE001b63f2305c-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:43 pjb-v [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:01 gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:35 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 04:26:44 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 04:26:54 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 04:26:56 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:02 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:20 varjagg [u4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-azfqogstryotuwrn] has joined #lisp 04:27:54 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-dphviqevjegbbtzk] has joined #lisp 04:28:28 -!- Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:28:51 Gurragchaa [u6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmnjlkjaohlwgeju] has joined #lisp 04:28:53 sytse [sytse@vps.swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 04:29:23 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:29:35 NimeshNeema_ [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nosfkswjbqsuptkk] has joined #lisp 04:29:49 rvirding__ [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dsehyqiqteltoevf] has joined #lisp 04:30:03 Guest9041 [Guest9041@218.59.111.165] has joined #lisp 04:32:51 dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqvsndimekshgesf] has joined #lisp 04:33:41 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 04:34:26 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 04:36:31 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fnogobxoqrbsyknn] has joined #lisp 04:37:13 PuffTheMagic___ [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wqxqtseurakhtzls] has joined #lisp 04:37:45 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.194] has joined #lisp 04:38:25 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:08 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-52-85.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:41:39 -!- NimeshNeema_ [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nosfkswjbqsuptkk] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:42:56 -!- agumonkey [~agu@243.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:45:59 NimeshNeema_ [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eserbodkxfsshyze] has joined #lisp 04:46:40 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:11 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 04:51:29 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:52:57 ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has joined #lisp 04:54:44 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:59:50 -!- elliottcable is now known as elliottcable___ 05:03:06 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.24] has joined #lisp 05:06:34 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:14 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:11:11 -!- elliottcable___ is now known as elliottcable 05:15:42 ASau [~user@46.115.56.41] has joined #lisp 05:18:42 -!- segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-129-182.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:18:55 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:23:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:25:04 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:06 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 Devon [~user@pool-173-66-1-242.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:12 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:10 Corvidium [~cosman246@27.131.190.66] has joined #lisp 05:44:12 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:47:56 drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 05:57:12 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:59:52 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@27.131.190.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:01:35 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:21 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:02:31 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:05:27 -!- newbie_coder [4267ffa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.103.255.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:08:45 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:14:51 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.141.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:21:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-27.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:23:49 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 06:24:22 meta4 [jgw@ukato.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 06:24:24 myx [~myx@pppoe-198-68-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 06:25:23 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.176.214] has joined #lisp 06:26:19 -!- meta4 [jgw@ukato.sdf.org] has quit [Client Quit] 06:28:36 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.151.39.99] has joined #lisp 06:29:08 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:39:26 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.151.39.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:39:40 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:40:24 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:40:44 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:40:59 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:41:08 -!- NimeshNeema_ [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eserbodkxfsshyze] has quit [] 06:42:32 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 06:43:11 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:45:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-27.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:48:07 good morning #lisp 06:48:46 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.137] has joined #lisp 06:49:22 Morning madnificent 06:51:19 good afternoon lisper 06:51:20 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176495102.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 06:51:42 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.101.173] has joined #lisp 06:52:26 -!- Devon [~user@pool-173-66-1-242.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:59:32 zulu_inuoe: the people on #sbcl may be able to give you pointers on what needs to be done, if anyone has tried it before 06:59:53 if not, you're in exciting new territory (-: 07:01:06 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.101.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:07:08 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:11 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:09:44 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.148.65] has joined #lisp 07:10:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:16:02 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:19:32 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:21:38 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:13 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:22:47 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-46-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:03 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.137] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:33:30 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:33:40 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 07:34:14 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:57 does contextl have an abstraction for with-active-layers which takes a list of contexts at runtime instead of at compiletime? 07:39:14 segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-103-190-179.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:49 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:42:47 contextl should have documentation 07:42:54 benny [~user@i577A7BFE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:12 indeed... 07:43:15 what do you mean exactly? 07:43:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.91.1] 07:43:42 i mean that contextl should have a manual and such 07:43:52 not some papers introducing some features which have changed slightly over time 07:44:00 or the other question? 07:46:28 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c2ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:58 the other question ..or what is wrong with CONTEXTL:ENSURE-ACTIVE-LAYER 07:47:04 (with-active-layers (foo bar baz) ...) assumes foo, bar and baz are layers. but what if i have a list of layers at runtime. is there a construct like with-active-layers which takes a list of layers to enable/disable. i know i can build a macro which does it, because there's ensure-active-layer and such, but i wonder if it isn't in there. it would be a logical thing to have. i initially assumed with-active-layers* would 07:47:04 trick, but looking at the code, it's not immediately clear. docstrings or something of the likes would be handy. 07:47:13 ensure-active-layer doesn't disable the layer after executing it. 07:47:29 well, you need to do it manually 07:47:35 and you do not want to do that? 07:47:45 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 07:48:09 which means you need to do the checking etc. i find it odd that the flexible version is not in contextl, and i don't seem to have a way to figure out if i'm wrong or not. 07:48:17 aside from reverse engineering the whole code 07:48:19 so look at the src for the macro ... 07:48:23 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 07:48:23 *active-context* 07:48:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:48:43 drewc: you go ahead. there's no documentation in there. and yes, i know that *active-context* exists. from the papers. 07:49:03 however, one must agree that that's suboptimal at best. how am i supposed to know what the contract of everything is? what will change and what won't in future releases 07:52:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:53:00 borodust [pauk@stdev.org] has joined #lisp 07:54:29 madnificent: you could know it by writing the documentation yourself. 07:54:47 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:54:58 If the provider doesn't write the contract, then even better for you if you write it yourself! 07:55:15 pjb: that's not correct 07:55:27 you can't just go dive and tell the author, this is what you should live by 07:55:38 furthermore, i don't know the design decisions of everything, so i'd invariable add very very dull constraints 07:55:39 so, don't use it? or, (deflayer foo) (with-active-layers (foo) (ensure-active-layer my-runtime-layer) ...) does that not work correctly? 07:55:51 Yes you can and if he complains, you can always tell him: Here is the documentation! :-) 07:56:08 drewc: he's just asking if something like the obvious unwind-protect ensure-active ensure-inactive etc. macro is already in the system. 07:56:20 And if there's a discrepancy between the doc and the code, you can fill a bug report! 07:56:26 drewc: no, it doesn't disable my-runtime-layer afterwards afaict 07:57:17 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 07:58:10 pjb: i think i'd rather shoot myself than start doing that sort of nonsense. this was a funded projectad that, in my opinion, had nice results in the papers. however, it is saddening that the code gets lost because of a lack of documentation. it is possibly even more saddening that your solution is: "just make guesses, document them, and live by it." 07:58:37 it doesn't have to 'disable' them, it LETs the *active-context* ... so they are inactive past the WITH- ... non? 07:58:39 madnificent: i would guess that the lack of documentation is to it being a research project = moving target (not that that makes it less frustrating to work with) 07:59:07 drewc: ensure-active-layer does that? 07:59:18 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:34 no,WITH-ACTIVE-LAYERS does that 07:59:45 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.185.79] has joined #lisp 07:59:46 drewc: and nothing of contextl mutates the list *active-context* destructively? 07:59:48 well, that's not runtime, is it? 07:59:58 ensure is simply adjoin + SETF 08:00:17 Bike: no, what drewc is saying: use a bogus layer foo in with-active-layers and assume that'll handle the shitstorm for you 08:00:40 oh. 08:01:00 color me insane, but i find that very very ugly. and i'm still surprised it's not 'just available' in contextl 08:01:40 well, maybe you could just rebind *active-context* and that'd be less crazy 08:01:59 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.137] has joined #lisp 08:02:44 Bike: yes, if you know how deep you need to clone it and what is allowed to be in there, so you can guarantee that the changes will not accidently propagate. for instance, i can rebind it, take the list and destructively modify it. then hopping back out of my binding, the original binding will be changed. 08:03:13 so, don't use the macro, that was a joke 08:03:18 also, *active-context* isn't exported 08:03:29 FUNCALL-WITH-LAYER-CONTEXT is exported, non? 08:04:22 yes, and that apparently creates a binding in the current version. 08:04:30 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 08:04:37 still need to find the layer context 08:04:40 and (contextl:current-layer-context) is working fine? 08:05:06 it would if it would tell me what it was doing and how the operations worked on it 08:05:10 it might as well return me a bike 08:05:20 hmm, should've used a different work 08:05:21 a rocket 08:05:30 ok..so ignore contextl then? 08:06:06 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:06:12 i'll guess *active-context* contains all currently active layers 08:06:20 ifyou want to know how it is implemented, look at the source.If you want to know how it works, there is a lot of papers he has written about it 08:06:24 no, what i was saying is that you need documentation 08:06:41 and you can nag about reading the source code as much as you want, it's not an inherent solution to the problem. 08:06:46 ignore *active-context*? 08:07:03 the papers are outdated 08:07:04 that is not exported, there is a function that returns the active context .. 08:07:17 so why do you care what it is composed of? 08:07:39 so is CL ...when did ANSI come out? 08:07:43 for the current layer... perhaps. maybe for all currently active layers... no one knows what it's supposed to de 08:07:47 s/de/do/ 08:08:23 are you arguing that the fact that the papers don't work with the current version still makes them perfectly sane documentation? 08:08:29 what is the difference betweenthe current layer and the active layers? 08:08:39 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.176.214] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 08:08:52 regardless of the fact that the code doesn't work anymore and that they aren't actually handy to look content up and in that they are interweaved with the equivalent of contextl in other languages? 08:09:05 drewc: good question! care to look in the docs for the answer? 08:09:21 ok,you put words in my mouth? then I won't. nor type them. 08:10:03 well, you seemed to find it a sane argument that 'a lot of papers he has written about it' 08:10:39 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-37-211.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:08 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.56.41] has quit [Quit: off] 08:11:31 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.246.35] has joined #lisp 08:12:38 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:12:57 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:14:32 *drewc* goes back to working on his commercial web app that has used contextl for quite a while 08:15:24 what doesn't seem to come trough is that contextl is quite awesome. what doesn't come through either is that it's virtually impossible to learn 08:15:48 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:19:45 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-shkkegcszhzlbkms] has joined #lisp 08:19:45 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-shkkegcszhzlbkms] has quit [Changing host] 08:19:45 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:23:01 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-72.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:24:40 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:24:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:25:19 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:26 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:26 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-37-211.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:52 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:25 djuber` [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:16 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:39:48 agumonkey [~agu@243.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:43 cissu [~cissu@ec2-54-248-92-140.ap-northeast-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:38 tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-103-190-179.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqvsndimekshgesf] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- nuba_ [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- kleppari [~spa@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:06 -!- maxm- [~user@openchat.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:44:37 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:00 add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-11-234.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-103-190-179.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqvsndimekshgesf] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 kleppari [~spa@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 08:46:15 maxm- [~user@openchat.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:25 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:57:06 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:01:46 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.148.65] has quit [Quit: Bye] 09:02:25 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78247138.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:05:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:12:30 -!- PCChris_ [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:12:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-5-63-229-139.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:12:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-5-63-229-139.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:12:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:15:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 09:15:51 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-11-234.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 09:16:42 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-51-55.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:17:09 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@180.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:28 PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:40 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-71-228.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:22:39 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:24:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:51 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.201.44] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:26:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:29:58 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:44 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 09:33:29 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 09:33:59 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:41:24 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:57 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:47:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:22 madnificent: you misunderstood my intent, really. It's free software: you're free to write the documentation. You say it was founded, obviously the money didn't ask for documentation. Perhaps another founding round could be called to have the documentation written? 09:52:06 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 09:52:09 s/found/fund/where it applies. 09:52:37 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eyljodhzlgxugikr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:37 -!- PuffTheMagic__ [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-utmkjblzzqutojhx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:37 -!- rvirding_ [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xpvgofjsvrwughpw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:38 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-amqmeczoiaftrnyu] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 09:52:42 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 09:54:18 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78247138.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:54:51 -!- rvirding__ [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dsehyqiqteltoevf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:52 -!- PuffTheMagic___ [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wqxqtseurakhtzls] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:52 -!- dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqvsndimekshgesf] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 09:55:12 pjb-v: it was founded with tax money btw. and no, i don't agree anyways. yes, i could write documentation, but my documentation would likely be *wrong*. so i cannot write /the/ documentation. 09:55:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-54.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:31 s/founded/funded/ (same mistake :P) 09:56:30 reminds me of the concept that test cases count as documentation. they don't. 09:56:41 maybe Belgians don't like documentation? 09:57:34 in my understanding, pascal is a researcher. contextl is a research tool, not a library that was primarily meant to be used by anyone. 09:59:27 stassats: i'm belgian too :) 09:59:41 flemish? 09:59:43 H4ns: the papers seem to indicate differently 10:00:11 stassats: correct. though pcos himself is not from flanders originally, i think he currently works at Imec on the HPC project. 10:00:37 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gabglopvbhzpatbv] has joined #lisp 10:00:44 (i may be wrong about all of the content in that last sentence) 10:01:02 madnificent: you're wrong all the way with your complaining :) 10:01:04 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 10:01:10 heh I'm belgian too 10:01:29 mal_: \o/ 10:01:51 kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 10:02:01 H4ns: i don't think i am. if the paper claims it's so awesome and it's already being used in practice, then i think documentation is one of the things that should be there. 10:02:24 madnificent: are you saying that you are entitled to documentation? 10:03:06 H4ns: i'm saying that if you claim the library is so awesome that you can use it in production, then i think it should have documentation. 10:04:06 H4ns: also, initially, i was complaining about it not having documentation making it hard to figure out something existed. the answer "look at the source code" isn't exactly sufficient to know how something will work in the future. 10:04:09 madnificent: not at all. i can claim any awesomeness, use it in production, open source only the code and not be wrong about anything. it is you who is wrong. 10:04:42 H4ns: have you read the initial discussion? 10:04:43 documentation is what's dragging progress 10:04:48 and backwards-compatibility 10:05:35 madnificent: there's a separation of concerns between research, and commercial ventures. 10:05:36 madnificent: lightly. i certainly did not follow quite as well as i do now. whoever demands things to be done from open source authors is plain wrong, and that is what you're doing now. 10:05:52 madnificent: commercial ventures usually take on from where research stops. 10:06:15 H4ns: i'm not. i'm saying it should have documentation and that i cannot write *the* documentation. 10:06:20 madnificent: what you see as a documentation problem is actually a commercial opportunity: take charge of the code, read the paper to understand it, write the documentation, commercialize it! 10:06:23 i'm saying it needs that to be learnable 10:06:38 will this discussion go on and on in circles? 10:06:38 pjb-v: right 10:06:45 stassats: yes, it will 10:06:48 Ye,s you will be doing research-AND-DEVELOPMENT. 10:06:50 stassats: BUT I WANT MY DOCUMENTATION, WRITE IT FOR ME 10:07:10 H4ns: that's not what i said btw 10:07:24 madnificent: you have options: you can not use whatever you don't like, you can enhance it, you can use something else. it is entirely up to you. 10:07:25 there's a distinction between needing documentation in order to make something learnable, and demanding it be here 10:07:38 H4ns: what is the alternative for contextl? 10:07:46 madnificent: you said "it should have documentation" repeatedly, and by that, you are implying that someone else "should" do the work for you. 10:07:50 H4ns: leave it, i'm trolling with the last one, sorry 10:07:51 madnificent: well, you can demand it as long as you have the money to pay for it :-) 10:08:00 H4ns: i'm not implying that at all 10:08:08 pjb-v: even then, you need to find someone who is willing to work for you. 10:08:09 H4ns: in order for it to be usable, it should have documentation. is that wrong? 10:08:23 H4ns: aren't there enough lispers for the lisp job offers? 10:08:43 H4ns: and i cannot just write that documentation because the design choices aren't documented. 10:08:44 madnificent: yes. what you can say is that you don't want to use things that are improperly documented and that you don't understand. 10:08:49 If there weren't, salaries for lispers would be higher, and lisp would be more popular 10:09:09 H4ns: what i was getting pissed off about, was that the papers were claimed to be sufficient documentation. and that the code itself was sufficient. that is not the case, i believe. 10:09:34 madnificent: it is sad, but it seems as if contextl is not written for you 10:09:36 if a program/library written in an academic context is of quality, that itself is a miracle 10:09:36 H4ns: and for what it's worth, i've done a reasonable effort to publish things that might help understand contextl 10:09:50 programs and libraries are but a sidetrack in the actual scientific work 10:09:50 H4ns: and i have used it. but the fact of the matter is still the same. for it to be usable, it should have documentation. 10:10:17 (this is not to say this is the way it *should* be, but how it normally is) 10:10:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:10:35 dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wbgknqdjktgvflxo] has joined #lisp 10:10:35 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 10:10:46 guaqua: hell yeah. you should see some of the numerical programs written by scientists. 10:11:06 well, commercial programs aren't any better 10:11:09 i have my fair share of "academic quality" 10:11:18 have => have seen 10:11:32 if you actually get to open the source, that's great 10:12:25 guaqua: i'm not saying that contextl was bad research or anything. what i'm saying is completely separate from that. it's good to see what the results were. and as research, it seemed to be something they could implement in a multitude of languages. all very nice. 10:12:39 but it should have documentation 10:12:55 *yawn* 10:13:02 H4ns: now i get it! 10:13:09 stassats: :D 10:13:24 the first 20 times weren't clear enough 10:13:45 Research projects have papers. Commercial products have documentation. 10:15:05 even non research open source stuff is sometimes badly documented. (stuff like tc or mencoder). It's not like the open source fairy owes you anything. 10:15:08 madnificent: false value propositions... :( 10:15:10 apparently not 10:15:12 boy, all this whining about how open source software should be is so annoying. as an open source author, i am really pissed off by people who send me bug reports in a demanding voice. i am putting in my own fucking hours, and if anyone does not like what i publish, they can use something else. or not. i don't fucking care. 10:15:26 H4ns: amen 10:15:32 H4ns: +1 10:15:48 have you seen me demanding that pcos implement the documentation? i haven't 10:15:51 i'm stating a fact 10:15:52 period 10:15:54 nothing more 10:15:56 nothing less 10:15:58 H4ns: did you improve that drakma documentation? 10:16:01 "right" 10:16:06 PuffTheMagic___ [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jzmdjkajtixcoijg] has joined #lisp 10:16:10 stassats: in fact i fucking did 10:16:16 and i have my fair share of libraries and i've implemented a fair share of requests from users 10:16:27 madnificent: but still, it should have documentation 10:16:44 eppur si muove 10:16:50 yes, for it to be usable, it should dave documentation 10:17:02 madnificent: you're speaking to the wrong audience 10:17:05 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 10:17:10 H4ns: and what about hunchentoot?! 10:17:12 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f5f837f781a007bb?dmode=source&output=gplain -- still to the point, 8 years later 10:17:20 spacefrogg: tell me, what would be a suitable audience for that? 10:17:21 and still, your valuable addition is saying exactly just that. as if it's incorrect. not adding any reasons or whatever 10:17:37 madnificent: pcos 10:17:37 H4ns: someone less frustrated, perhaps? 10:17:38 stassats: what's it with hunchentoot? 10:17:52 H4ns: pcos 10:17:56 i haven't checked, but i presume it may be out of sync as well 10:17:57 ahh, now i see 10:18:10 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 i guess pcos would be pleased to learn from madnificent that contextl "should have documentation" 10:18:26 but apparently, raising an issue is not done in #lisp these days. no matter if you expect a full-fledged solution or not 10:18:40 i guess not, but i'm not pleased to hear it either 10:18:59 and i am the wrong audience because i didn't write contextl 10:19:12 especially when H4ns frustration is touched upon. not that you don't do good work H4ns. 10:19:16 madnificent: you are making general claims from your specific anecdotal context. That might be one reason why you're getting substantial pushback 10:19:37 Krystof: in what sense? 10:19:48 madnificent: i'm not frustrated, just annoyed 10:19:49 LAMMJohnson [~john@user-5AF432F7.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:55 madnificent: you're not in the position to publicly 'raise' any issues. fix it or leave it. don't whine. 10:20:02 "it is not usable without documentation" is not only not that helpful, it is trivially rebutted by someone saying "well I use it, so you are wrong" 10:20:27 madnificent: ask for help where you need help. and be kind. 10:20:37 so people interpret what you say as "I can't use it without documentation", to which the response is most likely to be "so what?" 10:21:15 Krystof: agreed, that could have been formulated better. though it is correct that you can't just assume it to change in a way that you expected without documentation explaining the intend. also, i have used it on quite a few occassions. but it's somewhat risky. so that was overly agressive. 10:21:36 please don't spend time justifying yourself to me; I care so little it's funny 10:21:40 spacefrogg: i asked for help, it exploded 10:21:55 H4ns: automatic doc-string updating for all edicl projects would be nice 10:22:10 nobody seemed to have understood 10:22:29 -!- kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:22:45 rvirding__ [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvomfjedrdthprbd] has joined #lisp 10:22:48 yes, that can happen. the automatic hostility isn't something that helps clear things up though 10:22:49 stassats: my latest thought is that i want to generate the docstrings from the documentation, not the other way round. 10:23:08 Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:10 stassats: i hate having markup in docstrings, but markup is essential in real documentation 10:23:19 H4ns: well, frankly, i don't like humongous docstrings at all 10:23:48 two short lines describing what's it about, the rest in the real docs 10:24:06 stassats: i never use the docstrings either. 10:24:09 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 10:24:22 maybe i should just get rid of them, but even that will be quite some work. 10:24:22 stassats: it depends. the docstrings can be handy. it's integrated nicely into slime, which kind-of helps. 10:25:00 H4ns: how do you document you code? 10:25:33 spacefrogg: my docstrings usually contain a short overview, for real documentation i use xml or markdown 10:25:43 troll -- inherits edi's code, which is well-documented already (though really, the documentation is kept on par) 10:26:05 separate from the sources? or somewhere in between? 10:26:28 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 spacefrogg: separate. i like the editor help me with what i write, and string literals in lisp are not a good place to author long text. 10:26:57 i document slime functionality i add by writing blog posts, that's modern, ain't it? 10:27:28 stassats: rails-documentation? 10:27:45 i should explore twitter-docs as the next step 10:28:02 stassats: it is. i found that finding all relevant and related information about contextl (yes i know, it's still hot to touch) can be hard. how do people know what's written about the library? aside from reading it on planet.lisp.org 10:28:07 it's better than nothing, but a structured documentation would be even better 10:28:21 dwts [pid@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nkxdgwihzadouwbq] has joined #lisp 10:28:38 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 10:28:52 i've documented bigger systems (not lisp) with the sphinx package (iirc no support for common lisp) and gnu info pages 10:29:24 guaqua: literate programming (supported in org-mode) can be nice too 10:29:45 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:06 i have found that people don't read slime documentation, so most people learn about feature through the word of mouth 10:30:07 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:17 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:30:22 I read it 10:30:39 "read" as in the past? 10:30:48 yes 10:31:02 you don't track changes, don't you? 10:31:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:24 not that there were any recently 10:31:28 sure, after updates why? 10:31:38 well, most people don't 10:31:53 because it's inconvenient 10:32:11 i usually read documentation once, and then never again. i like change logs, and i hate documentation that spells out differences between previous versions. 10:32:23 versioning in documentation is really hard 10:32:40 allegro cl is notoriously bad in that respect. it is full of "it used to be like this, but now it is that" 10:32:43 the minimum is to have 'since version x.y' 10:33:07 python (language) has the old versions of the documentation compiled separately 10:33:08 i don't think that documentation should refer to previous versions. it should be targeted towards the new user. 10:33:28 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:33:47 in an ideal world, i think H4ns is right. you either want to know how it works now, or you want to see if your current code will still work with it. 10:34:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:34:31 and has "Since version x.y.z" on the stuff that's been introduced in the last two minor versions (not in bold or anything, but so that you can actually check when it was introduced) 10:35:11 CLTL2 is fun in that way 10:35:17 :/ 10:35:21 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.4] has joined #lisp 10:40:17 you should have a different documentation per major version 10:40:21 and release notes 10:40:48 a single doc covering more than a single major version is just stupid 10:40:48 right. if you can actually afford to write documentation at all, that is. 10:41:07 I said that to PHP lovers once, they didn't understand the problem, it was not funny 10:41:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:41:39 if they would understand anything, they wouldn't be using PHP 10:41:57 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:41:57 Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:05 H4ns: the PostgreSQL is quite effective. If you send a patch without proper documentation changes, it's not accepted, end of story. 10:42:16 +way in there, sorry 10:42:42 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:43:20 that also helps patch review by the way, you read first the docs part and then you know what to expect from the code changes 10:43:34 well, software should just have a single button, which would do anything it needs to do 10:43:38 no documentation required 10:43:57 let me stress that it should have documentation 10:44:18 DWIM will be an easy feature once the read-the-customers-mind primitive is implemented 10:44:35 even that way software would still be known to be buggy: the problem is that software won't do what you want, but what you ask 10:45:11 DWIMC is for version 3.0 :) 10:46:34 Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.181.13] has joined #lisp 10:50:07 bitonic [~user@ppp-133-38.24-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 10:51:46 kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 10:52:28 mal_: pjb-v on #lisp (+Ccn,lag:0) Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.1.2, Postmodern 1.19, Yason 0.6.2, Hunchentoot 1.2.7 (Krystof!~user 10:52:28 *** dabr (~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch) has quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds 10:52:28 *** mvilleneuve (~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr) has quit: Quit: Leaving 10:52:28 I read it 10:52:30 "read" as in the past? 10:52:34 man. 10:52:35 yes 10:52:36 not again! 10:52:37 you don't track changes, don't you? 10:52:40 *** dmiles_afk (~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has quit: Remote host closed the connection 10:52:43 like a noob 10:52:43 not that there were any recently 10:52:46 sure, after updates? why? 10:52:50 well, most people don't 10:52:51 p_l: ping 10:52:53 because it's inconvenient 10:52:55 i usually read documentation once, and then never again. i like change logs, and i hate documentation that spells out differences between previous versions. 10:52:58 versioning in documentation is really hard 10:53:01 allegro cl is notoriously bad in that respect. it is full of "it used to be like this, but now it is that" 10:53:04 the minimum is to have 'since version x.y' 10:53:08 python (language) has the old versions of the documentation compiled separately 10:53:11 i don't think that documentation should refer to previous versions. it should be targeted towards the new user. 10:53:14 *** peterhil` (~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi) has joined channel #lisp 10:53:17 in an ideal world, i think H4ns is right. you either want to know how it works now, or you want to see if your current code will still work with it. 10:53:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:53:20 *** browndawg (~browndawg@117.201.177.137) has quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 10:53:23 and has "Since version x.y.z" on the stuff that's been introduced in the last two minor versions (not in bold or anything, but so that you can actually check when it was introduced) 10:53:26 CLTL2 is fun in that way 10:53:30 :/ 10:53:33 *** browndawg (~browndawg@117.214.171.4) has joined channel #lisp 10:53:33 you should have a different documentation per major version 10:53:39 and release notes 10:53:39 a single doc covering more than a single major version is just stupid 10:53:42 right. if you can actually afford to write documentation at all, that is. 10:53:45 I said that to PHP lovers once, they didn't understand the problem, it was not funny 10:53:50 Damn! 10:53:56 Well, this is X11 on MacOSX, I'm sad. 10:54:03 mal_: http://www.news.com.au/technology/university-students-develop-mind-reading-headset-that-writes-down-users-thoughts/story-e6frfro0-1226050500583 10:54:17 I had a flood protection in erc, I will have to put it back in. It did bit rot 10:54:53 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 10:55:01 -!- dwts [pid@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nkxdgwihzadouwbq] has left #lisp 10:57:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:59:37 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:00:29 Ok, it's in my TODO list with highest priority. 11:01:46 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:02:29 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:03:36 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:29 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:09 setmeaway [oosool3@118.45.149.13] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:12:16 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:13:35 -!- sirdancealot6 [~webos@cst-prg-56-250.cust.vodafone.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:02 sirdancealot6 [~webos@cst-prg-56-250.cust.vodafone.cz] has joined #lisp 11:18:47 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 11:22:35 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 11:23:43 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 11:26:16 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:09 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.4] has joined #lisp 11:39:32 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:47:38 kanru`` [~kanru@111-249-133-182.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:42 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 11:50:33 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.192] has joined #lisp 11:53:15 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:54:28 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:55:27 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-104-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:00 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-46-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:58:07 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 11:58:34 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:06:44 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:09:16 -!- astertronistic [~astertron@ip70-181-226-75.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:31 heyandy [~heyandy@mail.antell.com.py] has joined #lisp 12:16:50 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 12:17:18 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:17:18 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:18:00 -!- dlind is now known as dalivi 12:18:19 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:19:14 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:35 -!- dalivi is now known as dlind 12:19:44 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:21:13 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:28 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:11 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:33:19 AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:34:32 H4ns: pong 12:34:42 ... ohhh 12:34:48 p_l: he's finished already :) 12:34:49 sorry, I just ended up sleeping on my desk at work 12:34:54 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 12:34:54 uh, nice! 12:34:56 :) 12:35:17 -!- cissu [~cissu@ec2-54-248-92-140.ap-northeast-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:38 Everything is good as long as you do not have marks from the keyboard in your face :) 12:36:43 If you ever have to do acceptance testing of a web application, and some poor deluded soul tells you to use HP QuickTestPro for Web part (no Java applet, ActiveX or similar stuff)... don't just tell him off, just find a LART of sufficient power 12:38:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:39:22 as for keyboard... well, I didn't land on either of the keyboards in front of me, but was kinda dozing off in the chair in bad position 12:41:18 but... yeah. NEVER, EVER, use HP QTP for web apps, if you value your sanity, health and time 12:41:46 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:54 not sure what Lisp has got to do with it 12:42:16 stassats: I assume people here might write a webapp in lisp 12:42:21 rikonor [~rikonor@bzq-84-108-66-52.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:21 -!- rikonor [~rikonor@bzq-84-108-66-52.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:32 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-dphviqevjegbbtzk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:42:33 surely the will write their own testing framework 12:42:41 and acceptance/functional tests... well, I guess you could use ABCL with Selenium, but other than that, there's nothing available 12:42:48 (or doable in sensible time) 12:43:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:43:20 personally, I'm thinking of moving this pile of crap to Selenium alter on, maybe with clojure-written tests 12:43:27 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.4] has joined #lisp 12:47:30 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47:31 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:47:48 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:47:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:48:25 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 12:49:16 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:50:45 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has joined #lisp 12:52:42 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:54:15 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-urlxskoaxupucyed] has joined #lisp 12:58:53 Anyone familiar with dspecs in Lispworks? 12:59:39 Jasko [~Jasko@65.217.244.130] has joined #lisp 13:02:00 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:08 -!- setmeaway [oosool3@118.45.149.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:33 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.13] has joined #lisp 13:06:41 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gabglopvbhzpatbv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:56 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-198-68-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:07:28 -!- dlind is now known as dalivi 13:07:35 -!- dalivi is now known as dlind 13:08:05 mizlev [~mzl@51.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:56 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:10:13 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:10:30 qui 13:10:34 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:11:59 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12:47 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:35 jmckitrick [~user@169.130.23.34] has joined #lisp 13:14:40 I just updated all dists, which updated CLSQL from a March date to November, and my postgresql-socket3 connections fail to authenticate. 13:15:19 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 13:17:51 I saw a notice about shadowing a symbol in cl-postgresql, but it didn't seem clear if that would affect authentication. 13:17:57 Corvidium [~cosman246@61-91-20-179.static.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:18:00 I'm sure this is a simple issue.... any thoughts? 13:18:07 If not, I'll post to CLSQL. 13:18:25 you are not providing enough information to have thoughts about it 13:18:28 S0da [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 13:18:52 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 13:18:53 Hmm. Well, I have a box that authenticates fine, and I just updated it, now it fails. 13:19:09 I'm able to use :postgresql fine, but neither of the socket interfaces. 13:19:28 :postgresql-socket and :postgresql-socket3 both fail 13:19:50 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@61-91-20-179.static.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:55 jmckitrick: and you did not change anything in postgresql configuration? 13:20:01 Nothing at all. 13:20:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:20:15 I just loaded the site, it worked, I updated, it broke. Here's the error: 13:20:20 Corvidium [~cosman246@61-91-20-179.static.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:20:22 jmckitrick: and you did not do any package update which would do it? 13:20:52 jmckitrick: because, you know, postgresql must be configured to accept socket connections 13:20:53 Well, it looks like update-all-dists from ql changed something. 13:20:54 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:05 postgres was fine before the update 13:21:10 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:21:20 This was a working dev/prod machine. 13:21:28 why are you using clsql and not postmodern? 13:21:38 My other dev box broke the same way, so I tried the update on this one, with the same result. 13:22:00 I'm on a migration plan at the moment, and postmodern is carrying about 1/5 of the load right now. 13:22:26 While trying to connect to database localhost/rlg/jcm 13:22:27 using database-type POSTGRESQL-SOCKET3: 13:22:27 Error DATABASE-ERROR / password authentication failed for user "jcm" 13:22:27 has occurred. 13:23:55 which kind of authentication are you using? md5? 13:24:13 It must be something besides clsql. Because the postmodern section of code is failing as well: 13:24:29 Database error 28000: password authentication failed for user "jcm" 13:24:33 is your password using unicode characters? 13:24:41 Hmm. I wonder. 13:24:45 It shouldn't be.... 13:25:08 should be easy to check 13:25:21 do you send the password itself, or its md5 hash, or something else? 13:25:30 The password is in the code. 13:25:50 that's a good starting point. do you send that password or a hash of it on the wire? 13:26:02 -!- am0c_ is now known as am0c 13:26:03 The password itself. 13:26:29 (I won't comment how useless I think having the password in clear in the code is, that's not the point) 13:26:39 (clsql:connect '("localhost" "rlg" "jcm" "XXX") :database-type :postgresql-socket :if-exists :old :encoding :utf-8) 13:26:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:57 and what is the pg_hba.conf line that matches your connection attempt, and what do you find in the PostgreSQL logs? 13:27:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:07 dim: having it hashed in the code doesn't change much 13:27:12 exactly 13:27:17 just use trust in that case 13:27:37 don't push it to github accidentally 13:27:41 and be sure to limit it to the right application addresses 13:27:46 I'm open to suggestions, this system is about 6 years old. If it wasn't broken, I didn't fix it. 13:27:49 trust means no password in the code, no hash either 13:27:56 It's only local connections 13:28:05 let me find the log... 13:28:19 jmckitrick: you could switch to "trust" in pg_hba.conf to limit the cause of the problem, then decide what to do about it 13:28:29 we will need the log entries about the password failure to help anyhow 13:29:46 if you want full security, use ssl with server and client certificates and ask for cert validation, I think, if you can have host based authentication why sending any password stored in the code is beyond me 13:30:06 Looks like logging has been turned off. I only know basic db admin. Let me get it turned on... 13:31:01 dim: because I did not learn a better way to do it at the time? 13:31:18 you could also try the same connection string from the same machine with psql to have the psql client side error message already 13:31:22 *p_l* would love to use GSSAPI and authenticate through machine/application kerberos ticket instead... :) 13:31:34 jmckitrick: that would be an excuse yes 13:32:03 p_l: PostgreSQL has GSSAPI authentication support 13:32:08 It's old code from a startup where I was sysadmin, lead dev, and CTO. 13:32:12 ;-) 13:32:59 dim: I figured do. It'd just I rarely see support for that on db client side 13:33:36 well libpq offers that... is there a libpq CFFI lib for CL? 13:33:54 I don't guess it would be the first choice of any CL user, even if it was available 13:34:29 dim: That's what I used to use, but it was buggy and socket3 was better and didn't require building libpq 13:35:12 So the log says 'password authentication failed for user "jcm"' 13:35:13 I did some CL/PG quick-projects where I did use postmodern too 13:35:20 Which is no surprise. 13:35:35 did you find the pg_hba.conf line that matches the connecting host? 13:35:38 I just can't figure out how updating CLSQL and postmodern would break something so fundamental. 13:36:21 local all all trust 13:36:27 my supposition was that it's sending a hash of the password you gave in the clear, and that the md5 lib did change and something broke at that level 13:36:32 comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE001b63f2305c-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:56 local means unix domain socket, trust means it won't even read the password you're sending, I don't think that's the matching one 13:37:12 I just changed it from ident 13:37:20 ah, cl-md5 did indeed change recently 13:37:28 well, there you go. 13:37:32 I found this line as well: 13:37:41 yeah but that's still the local (as in from the same machine) 13:37:50 host all all 127.0.0.1/32 md5 13:38:06 try changing that md5 to trust then reload postgresql 13:38:29 either sighup or init.d reload or pg_ctl -D $PGDATA reload or psql then SELECT pg_reload_conf(); 13:38:29 the 'host' line? 13:38:44 -!- S0da [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:44 jmckitrick: md5:md5sum-string changed 13:38:48 yeah, if your client is failing to connect from 127.0.0.1, that is 13:40:26 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@61-91-20-179.static.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:40:37 That did it! 13:40:54 good 13:40:55 Now, how should I fix my db connection/setup to get rid of the password? 13:41:08 are you connecting from localhost in the production setup too? 13:41:08 If it's set to trust, can the p/w be left out for local connections? 13:41:14 dim: thanks 13:41:33 Or, should I dig into md5 more? 13:41:38 trust means it won't have a look, send it whatever you want in the password field 13:41:56 even something naughty? 13:41:58 That's what I thought... 13:42:09 "h4ckm3" for example, yes 13:42:30 And if there are no other host settings, external connections are not accepted, correct? 13:42:33 well I'm not sure how naughty that is considered for a password field, but well :) 13:43:26 jmckitrick: the trust policy you just setup was confined to 127.0.0.1, all users, all databases 13:43:35 jmckitrick: you could restrict user and database too on that line 13:44:00 and if you use 127.0.0.1, you might want to consider a unix domain socket instead (less overhead) 13:44:14 hence my question about the comparable production setup 13:44:51 and the day you want to separate out the lisp machine from the database backend machine you can still connect the lisp to pgbouncer using unix domain sockets 13:44:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:46:24 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:46:36 dim: I'm trying to recall why I switched to IP sockets.... Let me try that... 13:47:06 maybe either socket3 or postmodern don't know how to connect over unix domain sockets 13:47:13 Which connection type would that be? I've used :postgresql, :postgresql-socket, and :postgresql-socket3 13:47:18 I don't think they do.... 13:47:39 maybe that socket think, I wouldn't know, do you have the lib's documentation available someplace? 13:47:58 no harm doing quick tests in the repl that said :) 13:47:59 cosfx [~cosfx@wsip-98-175-172-245.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:54 once connected, run the following query to disambiguate: select client_addr, client_hostname, client_port from pg_stat_activity; 13:50:10 client_port is -1 when you're connected on the unix domain socket 13:50:11 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:50:23 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:51:32 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE001b63f2305c-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:22 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:36 dim: I'll investigate that some more. I'm glad I'm up and running again.... 13:55:18 PERIKA [~PERIKA@197.247.52.235] has joined #lisp 13:55:31 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ably120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 13:55:37 to get back to previous security setting, see about those md5 changes, but I would advice learning some more about pg_hba.conf to see if you can actually use "trust" in your case (hint, if database server listen_addresses are not accessible from the internet, chances are that "trust" is the same as "md5") 13:56:24 That query shows 127.0.0.1 and 34... for the port. 13:56:34 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:45 yeah, that's tcp/ip localhost 13:56:57 not matching local lines in the hba file 13:57:00 dim: from the internet? what about accessible by other users on the same host? 13:57:03 So it's IP sockets, not unix domain 13:57:15 I'm the only user, ATM. 13:57:33 The only human user, that is. 13:58:08 stassats: then you have to review how easy it is for them to have read access to the source files hence to the password, or to run a copy of the application then take control (with slime or some debug connection etc) 13:58:37 slime supports passwords 13:58:50 and files have access control 13:59:13 yeah I don't know much about that, and I'm not a security guy, that's why I try to make statements very limited in their scope 13:59:57 well, I've got some work to do to figure out my correct security settings. 13:59:59 Thanks for the help. 14:00:13 I've seen enough setups where everyone in the company is granted root access to the production setup in private networks to hint at using trust if possible 14:00:31 -!- jmckitrick [~user@169.130.23.34] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:02:44 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:05:05 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:11 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.192] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:05:40 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 14:09:14 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pekkdqacfmuljgky] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10:31 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.109] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-46.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:00 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-46.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:18:00 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:18:15 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:19:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:19:31 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-025-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:36 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:22:44 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.200.150] has joined #lisp 14:23:41 tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:56 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:31:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:32:30 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:32:51 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:34:40 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:46 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:49 abeaumont [~abeaumont@180.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:51 pavelpenev [~quassel@212.233.134.172] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:11 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:39:31 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 14:41:42 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.185.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:45:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:27 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.13] has joined #lisp 14:48:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A4A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:28 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-114-236.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:30 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 14:51:55 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-025-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:52:34 -!- balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: Gone with the wind] 14:53:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:56:51 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:03 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:15:19 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.246.35] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 15:17:41 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-211-208.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:35 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-114-236.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:22:30 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.47.94] has joined #lisp 15:22:35 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:23:00 comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE001b63f2305c-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:38 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 15:23:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.47.94] has quit [Changing host] 15:23:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:24:38 -!- comatose_kid [~comatose_@CPE001b63f2305c-CM0023bee41a51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:28:30 tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:20 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 15:31:22 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: immediate death] 15:33:08 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:33:21 I want something like (format t "Name~5t:") but to print 5 periods instead of 5 spaces. How is this done? 15:34:48 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 15:35:26 (format t "Name.....:") is the shortest way 15:38:02 if you want it to print Name.:, then "~5,,,'.@:" 15:38:38 stassats`: Thanks. But I over simplified. Here is what I actually have right now: (format t "~%~{~a~19t: ~a~%~}~%" record) 15:39:05 ~19,,,'.A 15:39:25 or maybe @A 15:39:37 Krystof: but you need to supply the argument for A 15:39:52 but he's got an argument right there 15:40:01 asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 15:40:07 ~A~19T but with dots is ~19,,,'.A 15:40:17 oh, i was still thinking about the first example 15:40:29 yeah. Always ask the asker: "what are you really trying to do?" :-) 15:41:07 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.152] has joined #lisp 15:41:09 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:32 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 Krystof: thanks! 15:42:57 why 19, though? 15:43:03 that seems like a magic number 15:44:16 (by the way, I like the potential trick of using ~@<~> with arguments to get "how do I print n user-supplied characters" 15:44:23 ... one for lisptips, Xach?) 15:44:50 or n anything 15:44:51 drl: I reserve the right to have got the details wrong, like maybe what I have given you actually has a fixed-width field rather than having 19 dots always, or something 15:44:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:45:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:45:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:46:38 Krystof: A fixed-width field is what I want. 15:46:57 perfect, then :-) 15:47:13 Yes. 15:48:49 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-71-228.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:30 tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.181.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:59:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:00:46 (format t "~:{~19,,,'.<~A~;~>: ~A~%~}" '((a 2) (hello 3))) 16:03:33 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.10.239] has joined #lisp 16:03:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:16 xmj [~xmj@copyfree/advocate/xmj] has joined #lisp 16:04:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:05:17 netgod [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-abkcuqntanmoeirk] has joined #lisp 16:08:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:37 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.162] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:15:29 -!- borodust [pauk@stdev.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:08 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:22:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:24:58 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:25:32 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-192-102-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:37 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:28:08 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:01 -!- netgod [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-abkcuqntanmoeirk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:32:29 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:34:59 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:35:22 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:43 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:07 sellout [~Adium@24-205-97-191.dhcp.crcy.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:31 -!- sellout is now known as Guest93486 16:36:58 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:37:12 Kvaks [~kvaks@14.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:37:12 -!- Kvaks_ [~kvaks@177.160.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:38:06 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:40:02 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:40:35 -!- Guest93486 [~Adium@24-205-97-191.dhcp.crcy.nv.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:41:53 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.66] has joined #lisp 16:43:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:43:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:45:37 -!- Guthur`` [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:38 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 16:47:26 hi, in MOP, if I want to see if a slot has :initform, shall I check slot-definition-initfunction? 16:47:40 yes 16:48:04 stassats`: what is slot-definition-initform then for pls? 16:48:21 for... the form! 16:48:35 but it is NIL even if slot has no :initform.... 16:49:13 NIL happens to mean nil, zilch, nothing, bupkis 16:49:28 what else would it have? 16:49:31 unbound? 16:49:52 *Gertm* finds old code starting with (mb:load... 16:50:05 unbound is inconvenient to use 16:50:23 besides, you have slot-definition-initfunction, i don't see why are you complaining 16:50:59 ok, I take your word for it - check slot-definition-initfunction for NIL - if this one is NIL, it means no initform. 16:51:04 thanks! 16:51:53 initfunction is there not because you can't check the initform, but because it needs to save the environment at the moment defclass was defined 16:52:06 -!- kanru`` [~kanru@111-249-133-182.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:52:46 is this how CLOS works internally? if there is initfunction, it calls it and sets the slot to whatever it returns, but if initfunction is NIL, slot is left unbound? 16:53:00 yes 16:53:04 thanks 16:55:05 and using unbound slots would mean having to use values of slots, and MOP prohibits exporting such symbols 16:55:13 "No portable class Cp may inherit, by virtue of being a direct or indirect subclass of a specified class, any slot for which the name is a symbol accessible in the common-lisp-user package or exported by any package defined in the ANSI Common Lisp standard." 16:55:32 well, not exactly, say exporting from sb-mop would be ok, because it's not defined by the standard 16:55:55 but the intention is the same, say if you :use sb-mop, then such symbols would clash 16:56:28 right 16:56:34 so, if there wasn't initfunction, there could be a slot initform-supplied-p 16:56:40 s/slot/accessor/ 16:58:42 i recently came up with a problem with determining whether a slot option is supplied or not, solved it by having the default value be ((gensym) default-value), and then comparing it with this gensym 17:00:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:36 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:00:38 I just want to distinguish between slots holding collections that were not loaded yet (so #) versus collections that were loaded and are empty. 17:01:00 so I am using MOP to verify my classes fulfil my requirement: no initform on collections 17:01:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:01:32 well, that can be solved more easily! 17:01:44 extra slot? collection-loaded-p? 17:01:46 -!- xmj [~xmj@copyfree/advocate/xmj] has left #lisp 17:02:15 ah, i didn't account for that you might not have your own meta-class 17:02:31 no, I don't want to mess with postmodern dao-class 17:03:04 so # is a fine flag 17:03:12 what i was proposing, add an initialize-instance method for slot-definitions, and then error if :initform is present 17:03:30 but you need your own metaclass with custom slot classes, not that simple 17:03:35 yup 17:03:47 I am fine with my kludge at the moment :) 17:04:43 mutenewt [~mutenewt@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:56 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@65.217.244.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:07:32 silenius [~silenius@brln-4d0c0234.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:27 (defmethod allocate-instance :before ((slot postmodern::direct-column-slot) &key (initform nil supplied-p)) (when supplied-p (error ...))) 17:08:56 thx, may do 17:09:14 well, it uses unexported symbols, so might break in the future 17:09:43 I need to read AMOP if my kludges get too inconvenient anyway 17:10:15 you can read just two chapters, concerning MOP: http://alu.org/mop/index.html 17:10:56 thx - I have it on dead tree on my shelf, just did not study it yet 17:11:24 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:39 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:48 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:44 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:17:14 -!- asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:03 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-37-211.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:04 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:02 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:19:36 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-133-38.24-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:06 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:21:01 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 17:25:33 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 17:26:13 Jasko [~Jasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:49 -!- vityok [~user@193.109.118.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:36 is there any difference between toplevel (a) (b) and toplevel (progn (a) (b))? 17:33:14 nope 17:33:29 yes, there is 17:33:45 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:34:09 consider e.g. (a) being something that modifies the reader state. In the first case, (b) will be read under the new readtable; in the second case, (b) will already have been read 17:34:10 Bike: Krystof: details or links please if you can :) 17:34:29 oh, that's true. 17:35:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:36:17 that is the only difference? for example this particular case? as in (a)(b) => (defconstant x 3)(defconstant y 4)? 17:39:19 sellout [~Adium@24-205-97-191.dhcp.crcy.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:06 gridaphobe [~user@ip72-219-56-19.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:13 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:43:16 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:43:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:46:50 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:52:51 -!- sellout [~Adium@24-205-97-191.dhcp.crcy.nv.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:54:37 rexim [~rexim@unaffiliated/rexim] has joined #lisp 17:57:17 nan_: check clhs load and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/25_aa.htm 17:57:44 nan_: for defconstant, is it's CL:DEFCONSTANT, then there's no difference. 17:57:47 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 if the reader state is such that defconstant is read as another symbol than CL:DEFCONSTANT, then anything can happen. 17:59:01 -!- rexim [~rexim@unaffiliated/rexim] has quit [Quit:    ] 17:59:22 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-71-228.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:00:02 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:21 pjb: so only thing i need to worry about is one of these functions manipulate reader state? 18:00:30 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.57] has joined #lisp 18:00:30 thanks all for the answers 18:00:33 Yes. 18:00:58 Notice that *package* belongs to the reader state. 18:01:10 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:01:17 (in-package :some-package) (b) and (progn (in-package :some-package) (b)) can be very different. 18:02:04 pjb: got it, thanks 18:02:52 (progn (defvar *foo* (find-symbol '*bar*)) (defvar *bar* *foo*)) 18:03:08 well, a more proper invocation of find-symbol 18:05:08 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:27 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:36 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 18:07:59 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:13 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:15 cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has joined #lisp 18:11:12 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:11:44 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 18:18:17 "Lisp is worth learning ... make you a better programmer ... even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot" thing is.. more i learn lisp more i hate the languages i have to use, as they bocome unbearable, that might make me a better programmer in another universe but here i just become unproductive and frustrated. sorry, had to let it out. 18:19:40 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rptojqcajzblwjjb] has joined #lisp 18:22:05 lol 18:22:10 poor sod 18:22:19 got lispified lol 18:22:26 :) 18:24:42 well at least i am new to this, don't want to imagine about those that started with lisp and had to downgrade years and years, that would make me change the profession... 18:25:43 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:28:42 resistance is futile. 18:28:45 make lisp program for you in other languages..... 18:29:02 i suppose that be the solution to your problem..... 18:29:31 if you can make it that far..... 18:29:49 the worst advice ever 18:30:06 eheh 18:31:31 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 18:33:11 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 18:35:07 segv-_ [~mb@dslb-094-222-250-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:12 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-220-191-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:35:24 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-222-250-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:31 -!- segv-_ is now known as segv- 18:35:49 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.220.96] has joined #lisp 18:37:59 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:01 nan_: once you've learn enough lisp, you should be able to write again in other programming languages. Yes, they're awful. But you'll realize they're just all awful, there's no one better than the other, outside of lisp. So you can as well program in python, C++, php or whatever. 18:38:50 When you watch Apple going GC, and back to ARC or will they go on with retain/release, you just laugh and write horrible code to get the money, so you can write nice lisp code in the evening and week ends. 18:39:46 -!- PERIKA [~PERIKA@197.247.52.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:39:47 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.220.96] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:13 Imagine an ET traveling to Earth and having to live with us, to watch politicians on the news on TV, and so on. Well, any time he can go back to his space ship and off the planet! :-) 18:40:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:40:58 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:41:35 pjb: i don't need to imagine that, i can't watch those either but the ET is lucky he got somewhere to go! 18:41:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 but i got your point :) 18:47:08 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:37 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 18:48:57 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 18:52:02 Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:08 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 nan_: unfortunately, a lot of people get burned out in IT anyway 19:01:34 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:05:43 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: Tabrenus] 19:06:31 -!- mutenewt [~mutenewt@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 19:08:41 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 19:09:29 -!- mizlev [~mzl@51.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: mizlev] 19:10:15 -!- blubberdi is now known as blubberdiblub 19:10:48 -!- kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:52 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c2ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:14:34 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-37-211.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:01 -!- silenius [~silenius@brln-4d0c0234.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:49 nan_: but again, if you go far enough with lisp, you'll be able to go back to work (for bread) with any other programming system. Sure, they will look lame, but you won't care anymore :-) 19:22:31 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:22:42 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 19:24:24 pjb: lies 19:24:40 you'll go back and never be happy again because everything else will be annoying and shallow ;) 19:24:51 but, you won't regret it 19:24:53 pjb: i am whining but it doesn't mean i'll stop learning, quite the opposite, whatever happens at the end i'll be studying 19:25:28 and more importantly, using. 19:29:51 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 19:30:44 oGMo: this is same for everything yet when i was young and naive i used to believe coders are somehow enlightened beings, that they have considerable knowladge on every aspect, oh how wrong i was... sorry for talking non-tech stuff rest of the #lisp 19:30:49 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 19:31:19 or you'll end up writing lisp compilers to whatever language you'll need to use :) 19:33:13 bondar [~bondar@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 19:33:22 nan_: there's enlightenment, but not magic; i think part of enlightenment is understanding how nonmagical things are 19:33:24 -!- bondar [~bondar@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:55 phadthai: probably not worth it .. you can make lisp interface with what you need, and if CL source is a problem in the first place, compiling to something else won't really help 19:34:00 also one last sorry about my english, my grammer was close to perfect once... then i played world of warcraft and here i am with this abomination of a grammer :) 19:37:09 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:29 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:10 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:40:43 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 -!- cdh473 [~cdh473@50.96.93.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:43:59 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:17 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:58 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.109] has joined #lisp 19:46:53 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:13 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:48:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:53:24 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-104-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-220-191-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:53:53 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:55 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:06 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:58:11 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 20:01:31 vlion [~vlion@66-87-69-221.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:28 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:30 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:58 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 20:05:14 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:07:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:09:29 alpha123 [~Peter@184-96-192-56.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-69-221.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:12:12 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@152.169-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:12:12 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@152.169-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 20:12:12 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:12:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-219.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:00 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.185.79] has joined #lisp 20:14:42 -!- alpha123 [~Peter@184-96-192-56.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:15:03 cdh473 [~cdh473@50.96.93.197] has joined #lisp 20:16:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:16:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:31:09 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-71-228.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:18 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:39:33 nan_: non tech stuff (philosophy) can go to #lispcafe ;-) 20:40:01 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-186-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:11 ynniv [~ynniv@c-24-98-197-10.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 jeti [~user@p548E9BD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:57 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:52:03 snearch [~snearch@g225076052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-37-220-245-56.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:59:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-37-220-245-56.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 20:59:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:14 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95-90-241-167-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03:24 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-meqkwztexujbxcej] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:03:26 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.148.65] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:08:45 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:17:50 jeti` [~user@p548EAE05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:24 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:21:07 -!- jeti [~user@p548E9BD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:26:51 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:39 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 21:28:52 carlo5 [~510carlos@209.49.100.67] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 -!- carlo5 [~510carlos@209.49.100.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:25 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:15 -!- RocksHound [~rtc@96-38-238-134.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [] 21:36:10 rk[detached] [~karason@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 21:37:56 Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:09 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:41:46 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-153.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:54 hello lispers! i am curious as to make a basic machine for writing lisp. moreover i am curious as to what special hardware components lisp-machines used to make running lisp more effiecient. any ideas? 21:59:22 intel core iX are pretty effiecient at running lisp 21:59:53 ha, but i can not build a intel core iX machine. 22:00:04 i am more thinking at the microcontroller level. 22:00:14 rk[detached]: i don't think lisp machines are really that interesting from a hardware standpoint, but if you really want you could find old manuals on bitsavers. the bit i know about is having tagged architectures. 22:00:21 lisp is not suited for microcontrollers 22:00:23 didn't they mostly have lots of RAM? 22:00:51 it was all those 9-bit bytes 22:00:56 lots of RAM and stupidly expensive processes. 22:01:02 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:04 oh i see. 22:01:35 i suppose i will have to find a mcu with lots of ram, XD 22:02:47 you can call core i7 "a microcontroller with lots of ram" 22:03:18 ha. 22:03:23 rk[detached]: xilinx zynq is a nice chip to run lisp on. 22:03:29 but that doesn't really help me achieve my goal. 22:03:36 what is your goal? 22:03:41 thanks H4ns, i will look into that. 22:03:55 rk[detached]: you get a dual-core arm and an fpga for playing around with your own architectural and coprocessor ideas. 22:04:21 well i want to make a LEDCUBE. 22:04:41 i started writing code for an arduino-lisp interpreter, which i have not yet written 22:04:54 i really like the way the code looks, very easy to write. 22:05:16 and it would allow for me to write new sketches without having to reboot the machine 22:05:28 this is a feature i would really like to have. 22:06:52 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.185.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:07:16 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:09:42 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: Tabrenus] 22:12:33 rk[detached]: basically, it's a question of data type and of operation implemented in the ALU. 22:13:28 rk[detached]: when you write FORTRAN program, you need integer, float, vectors of them and +,-,*,/ on integers and floats. 22:14:45 rk[detached]: but for lisp, you need cons cells, strings, characters, structures, etc. 22:15:04 and as operations, cons, car, cdr, etc. 22:15:16 ah this makes sense. thanks pjb ! 22:15:43 So you can either implement cons in terms of integers and +,-.*./, in software, or you can hardwire a cons operation in the ALU. 22:16:46 i will look into these "lisp" ALUs 22:16:56 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.148.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:18 SkyAnemone [~skyanemon@c-69-248-136-58.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:26 the cons operation does not reside in the alu 22:17:33 rk[detached]: notice however, that the 704/7090 processors had already the instructions for CAR and CDR hardwired in their ALU, since they used a structure on the 36-bit words: 3-bit|15-bit|3-bit|15-bit, for the instructions. There were 3 bit opcodes, 15 bit addresses, 3 bit modifier/opcode, and 15 bit decrement. 22:17:34 in the CLU? 22:17:36 the alu is for arithmetic and logic, not for memory management. 22:17:46 Cons Logic Unit 22:17:52 H4ns: well, more or less. 22:18:05 cons resides in the memory subsystem 22:18:08 in your opinion, do you think hardwiring these operations would have a long term advantage over a software implementation 22:18:12 rk[detached]: no. 22:18:16 rk[detached]: but it is fun. 22:18:21 "D 22:18:25 :D 22:18:33 rk[detached]: it is easy to underestimate the effort required. 22:18:43 the 7090 has instructions to build such a structured word from the component, in registers, so CONS is in the ALU (the part that constructs the word, not the part that allocates the memory of course). 22:18:45 i imagine it may take years of my life. 22:18:53 but i am interested in making a lisp machine. 22:19:14 rk[detached]: one fundamental thing you need to understand, is that it's turtles all the way down. 22:19:19 rk[detached]: i've got an implementation of SECD in vhdl, which has cons and a microprogrammed garbage collector. 22:19:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down 22:19:32 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:20:26 rk[detached]: it's more powerful for your ideas to understand that there's no difference between hardware and software: you can implement a machine one way or another or half and half. 22:20:54 rk[detached]: when intel implements a processor in hardware, if you look inside you will see that there's a lot of software (called firmware, or micro-code). 22:21:31 and when sun implements a processor (JVM), you may believe it's all software, but companies are re-implementing it (or parts of it) in hardware. 22:22:07 it's not always hardware that give the fastest results either: software can play quite some tricks, with JITC and so on. 22:22:35 So your question is whether you can you alone beat Intel and its billions of investment in R&D? 22:22:39 What do you think? 22:23:15 infiltrate intel, convince them to change their CPUs 22:23:23 On my part, I'm lazy, and I consider that it's easier for me to write machines as software than to write them as hardware. 22:23:32 or AMD, or something 22:24:02 Well, intel is a commercial entity: as soon as you have lisp programs running on all computers, they will develop processors to optimize them. 22:24:34 so, infiltrate Microsoft? 22:24:52 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:08 but it doesn't seem like they've changed it for Java 22:25:56 We should probably write a lisp linux distribution. mercurial is written in python, so programmer learn python to write hooks, plugins, extensions. We should write a better SCM in lisp so they would write hooks and extensions in lisp (and it's possible to write a better scm than hg or git). brew and other distribution package managers are written in ruby or python, so people learn python to use them. 22:26:10 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-44.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:12 we don't even use BOUND. Why would they? 22:26:14 scons is written in python, so people learn python to write makefiles. 22:26:17 and so on. 22:26:33 pkhuong: bound? 22:26:38 So we should have a plan, and build a new linux distribution with an all-lisp userland. 22:26:58 which nobody will use 22:27:00 oh, an instruction for checking bounds, nice 22:27:10 We already have window managers and asdf and quicklisp. 22:27:32 pkhuong: you mean sbcl has a faster way to check bounds? :-) 22:28:02 stassats`: if we hire a few designers and nice girls, to make a cool looking UI, they will use it. Look ubuntu! 22:28:35 does intel recommend using bound in their manuals? 22:28:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-37-220-245-56.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:28:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-37-220-245-56.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:29:26 no. They introduced it around the 286, around the same time as their ix60, with logical segments and what not. 22:29:27 For example, about SCM, they all process _text_. But none is able to process text! They are actually processing bytes, and when you have a file in utf-16 it's taken as binary instead of text! They cannot unify the same file with different encodings. 22:29:41 And the management of sub-repository is abysmal. 22:29:42 No one used it, and the encoding space was repurposed in amd64. 22:30:35 So if we wrote a git/hg clone in lisp with real text file support, and with good sub-repositry handling, it could take over, and being written in lisp, it would be customized in lisp and people would learn CL instead of python or emacs lisp. 22:30:48 pkhuong: well, it was too slow. 22:30:57 that's not how it happens 22:31:05 antifuchs: what's the situation with the slime git repo? the one you have on github is not only lagging behind, but seems to be a different breed than the one used to be on boinkor.net. can you please give me some hints what to do? shall I rebase my extra patches on your git repo? or maybe this one? https://github.com/nablaone/slime ? 22:31:07 After pentium it could have easily run in parallel in the pipelines. 22:31:07 there's no logic in how things become popular 22:31:12 But not in 286. 22:31:33 http://stationary-traveller.eu/pages/bzr-a-retrospective.html 22:31:34 mizlev [~mzl@51.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 stassats`: my point is jsut to write applications in CL with hooks. 22:32:31 It must be the perfect opportunity to start a brand new VCS, what with the field narrowing now. 22:32:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:39 contrast with ENTER, which, iirc, AMD recommends in some situations. 22:33:18 *stassats`* waits until someone implements sub-backends for SBCL 22:34:41 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-24-98-197-10.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 22:34:44 well, using text as the base storage format for program code has major drawbacks, so IMHO starting a new VCS not dealing with a graph of identities is pointless... but then I might be a dreamer. 22:34:47 yep, still unfixed. sorry ): 22:34:52 By the way, in my company we're switching from svn to hg, because the MS-Windows developers can't find good git tools on MS-Windows. :-) 22:35:11 wow, seriously? 22:35:22 attila_lendvai: well, the problem is that we don't have good diff/merge tools on binary data. 22:35:45 foom: Yes, I don't believe it either, but I won't explore MS-Windows git tools either. 22:35:49 antifuchs: that's ok, you time is also limited... but what shall I do? throw away my old slime repo, or shall I wait and you'll recover the same breed that used to be on boinkor and I can pull in some future time? 22:36:19 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:36:42 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:52 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:53 I don't think I'll be able to bring that repo back. the incompatible one has a lot of errors fixed that were lurking in the old one 22:36:57 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:37:03 buuut you can interactively rebase onto the new one 22:37:05 pjb: I don't want binary diff. what I want is a diff/versioning tool that works on graphs (as opposed to unicode codepoints, or even worse bytes as the current ones) 22:37:13 pjb: well, to start with, TortoiseGit. There's a million git tools for windows. 22:37:27 That said the svn repository is ~ 500 GB with branches and stuff. They'll have fun switching to hg. 22:37:42 But whatever. :) 22:37:59 attila_lendvai: glyphs you mean? 22:38:20 antifuchs: ok, so I should rebase on the new one, and eventually that new one will be brought up to date, and it may potentially become the official slime repo due to the conversion quality (modulo politics) 22:38:22 stassats`: sub-backends, like backend-subfeatures? 22:38:32 yep, I hope so (: 22:38:48 but you should be able to keep both as an origin 22:39:33 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 22:39:52 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 antifuchs: thanks! I'll rebase on the new one and will be busy waiting for the update... ;) (but seriously, thanks for your efforts!) 22:40:09 *attila_lendvai* looks at glyphs 22:40:38 (I meant, you should be able to keep both branches as remotes on the same working dir) 22:41:21 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-44.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:21 But the idea is indeed that encoding should be a parameter of checkin/checkout, and the repo should have text (sequence of characters), not bytes or codepoints. But there are probably other unicode dragons to dompt. 22:41:22 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:42:01 pjb: i have been concidering for sometime writing a very minimal operation system written in lisp. 22:42:25 and i understand "i think" this hardware vs. software, but i have spent most all of my time with software 22:42:32 i am becoming interested in hardware 22:42:50 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:42:58 Ok. then you should investigate fgpa's. They're the fun entry point into hardware for software guys. 22:43:02 and was curious if there were any particular components which would make this lisp os function better 22:43:05 antifuchs: I may not even want to understand that... git's accidental complexity overwhelms my filter that tries to keep a balance between my ticking away days and medium/long term gains. I'll just clone your new repo and rebase my patches on that, maybe through multiple origins if I can figure it out in reasonable time... 22:43:07 thanks. 22:43:12 haha 22:43:18 rk[detached]: lisp functions well. 22:43:19 i appreciate all of everyones incite. 22:43:48 pjb: ...or to abandon the idea of using text to represent program code... 22:43:53 rk[detached]: well the things that made those lispOS fun were that the sources of all the layers of the OS were available to the user, and modifiable instantaneously. 22:44:15 rk[detached]: with linux, if you modify something in the kernel, you need to reboot. (unless it's a module you can cleanly unload and reload). 22:44:31 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 unless you run ksplice! 22:44:44 rk[detached]: in lisp OS, you modified the source, typed C-x C-e or equivalent, and presto, the new function was used, even if it was deep in the scheduler or a driver. 22:44:59 very neat!!! 22:45:07 rk[detached]: even emacs can't reach this level: emacs has a C core, that's as hard as any firmware :-) 22:45:20 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:30 pretty much why i am interested in wrtiting an arduino-lisp interpreter. 22:46:01 so that i can write new sketches live. 22:46:03 well, there are some ugly bootstrapping issues lurking in there. it's not always a redefine and enjoy, sometimes it's a redefine and wonder about the exhibited behavior, maybe for days... :) 22:46:17 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:32 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:46:52 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 22:47:15 yes, it may be redefine and hose your machine so you have to reboot, but then it is not worse than linux. 22:47:29 well, sure that! :) 22:47:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-44.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:47 but then you're putting the bar rather low... :) 22:48:57 where I mean 'linux' from an engineering achievement perspective, not as a social phenomenon or as a piece of useful code 22:49:19 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.219.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:17 -!- PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:53:49 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:14 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:57:22 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:58:48 -!- cdh473 [~cdh473@50.96.93.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:52 rk[detached]: if you want something brilliant quickly on a small hardware, than look at this and try to port it and/or just play with it: http://www.piumarta.com/software/maru/ 23:00:13 love the name (: 23:03:09 -!- heyandy is now known as Guest24212 23:05:35 -!- Adeon [~tryffelit@109.73.169.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:12 because of the cat? 23:08:04 happy (> (get-universal-time) (start-of (find 14 *baktuns* :key #'num))) everyone! 23:08:36 -!- jeti` [~user@p548EAE05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:10:59 happy 13th* baktun:D 23:11:11 maru is a very nice little lisp, and maybe even more due to its flexible extendability of its eval and grammar rules. but it would be even more interesting if it was compiling itself using a partial evaluator... ah, there's always room for titans to push the frontiers. I just wish I had the internet and research papers when I was 12 and was wasting my time writing m68k game engines that never really got used anywhere, having a 23:11:39 i will definately look into that attila_lendvai 23:12:39 rk[detached]: you're off-by-one 23:14:13 attila_lendvai: ah, sure, if we had lisp machines at 12 23:14:16 I'll add another small Lisp to the list of nice little things to play with... https://github.com/JeffBezanson/femtolisp 23:14:24 (not as brilliant as Maru though) 23:14:34 But nowadays, 12-year olds only think in playing games. 23:14:40 Not in programming anymore :-( 23:14:51 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-51-55.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:15:09 felideon: exactly (: 23:15:48 quick dumb asdf question: i have a module with sb-cltl2 in its depends-on, but asdf says it can't find it (even though (asdf:find-system '#:sb-cltl2) works). what am I doing wrong? 23:15:53 pjb: yeah, I can't decide: would have been the internet a blessing when I was 12, or would it have been a distractor that would have pushed me into a permanent java monkey state playing wargames online... 23:17:46 pjb: although, an important push for me was that I got bored of the games (no internet, a major scarcity) and wanted to stop my energy from being depleted, so I started to dig. a couple of years later I could make it stop depleting, and pretty much got distracted *from* the computer games... :) 23:17:51 When we were 12, there was no web and no flash, so no distraction on the internet. Only good text files with good information :-) 23:20:26 well, no text and no flash, but I still can play quakeworld way much better than I should be able to... even if we were running/compiling it on linux, writing aiming proxies, and such... :) 23:21:48 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:24 felideon: i think that depends on whom you talk to 23:29:10 Well, when I was 12 there was Doom... 23:30:04 -!- SkyAnemone [~skyanemon@c-69-248-136-58.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:31:19 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:31:43 ccl gives me an error on (format nil "~@"), but I don't see anything in the description of ~:> to warrant that... 23:31:58 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 23:35:57 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 23:40:27 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 23:40:40 PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:37 -!- PCChris [~Chris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:35 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:10 -!- fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:44:48 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.211.205.227] has joined #lisp 23:45:23 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-222-250-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:46:18 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:52:40 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 23:54:06 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56:10 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-24-131-173-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:27 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.211.205.227] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 23:57:26 Codynyx [~cody@c-24-131-173-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp