00:00:15 biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-239-62.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:23 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.32.59.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:16 Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:22 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.160.220.169] has joined #lisp 00:06:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:08:24 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:08:30 -!- capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:09:39 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:12:54 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:42 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 00:14:06 |3b|: I think there are examples of something like what you're talking about in PCL. But I could be wrong. 00:15:46 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@ec2-23-23-127-54.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:13 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:20:19 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:20:32 <|3b|> gigamonkey: didn't see it skimming, i'll try reading a bit closer 00:20:41 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:51 I could be wrong too. 00:21:48 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:53 Look at http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-an-id3-parser.html and the stuff about parsing id3-frames. perhaps relevant. 00:21:53 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:22:01 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 00:22:41 capisce [~srodal@cm-84.215.35.251.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 00:23:16 -!- alpha123 is now known as alpha123_gone 00:23:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@ec2-23-23-127-54.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:26:09 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:26:57 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:59 <|3b|> so basically define a separate type that does the size + padding stuff? 00:27:03 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:02 That sounds about right. 00:28:19 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:28:21 IIRC, defining such a type basically defines a method on read-object for you. 00:28:32 *|3b|* supposes that fits in with the way it does optional stuff, but would be nicer to be able to specify it as part of the class 00:28:37 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:51 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:30:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:05 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 -!- timack [~timack@unaffiliated/timack] has left #lisp 00:37:34 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.130.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:21 rickza [~gwnd@165.80.49.60.trm01-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 00:39:29 -!- rickza [~gwnd@165.80.49.60.trm01-home.tm.net.my] has left #lisp 00:39:29 -!- biscarch [~chris@ip-64-134-239-62.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:42:28 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host240.186-125-118.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:44:30 k0001 [~k0001@host239.186-109-96.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:47:30 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:48:46 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:48:51 -!- PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:49:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:50:57 PCChris [~Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:56:45 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:57:55 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@191.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:59:14 -!- CatMtKing [~ra1nyman@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:00:27 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:00:57 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:01:48 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:01:52 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 01:04:51 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.223.18] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:09:11 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:10:12 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:54 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:15:17 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:27 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:48 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:39 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:25:41 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.160.220.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:26:16 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 01:26:47 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.160.220.169] has joined #lisp 01:31:09 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-104-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:04 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-203-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:29 QuickSilver__ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:43 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@204.110.112.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:04 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-203-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:35:21 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 01:36:29 -!- QuickSilver__ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:51 QuickSilver_ [~ait@204.110.112.43] has joined #lisp 01:37:01 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:37:47 francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176366805.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:39:43 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:40:34 -!- gridaphobe [~user@128.54.49.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:32 tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.151] has joined #lisp 01:44:28 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ccn242.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 01:45:04 brad` [~brad@c-98-223-226-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:21 Hello! I'm about to release my graphics engine but I 01:45:21 have a problem. The name Qix implies a 2D game like, 01:45:21 well, Qix. I can only think of MacroScope (television 01:45:21 with Greek and Latin switched). Anyone have any good 01:45:21 names? 01:45:59 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.160.220.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:46:28 -!- brad` is now known as WarWeasle 01:46:32 whoops. 01:47:38 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.151] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:48:18 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.151] has joined #lisp 01:52:45 new_one [~peter@50.10.183.158] has joined #lisp 01:52:47 -!- new_one [~peter@50.10.183.158] has left #lisp 01:52:52 -!- alpha123_gone is now known as alpha123 01:52:57 new_one [~peter@50.10.183.158] has joined #lisp 01:54:56 sw2wolf [~czsq888@220.166.238.203] has joined #lisp 01:56:32 Anyone? 01:57:26 WarWeasle: What are the qualities that separate your engine from others? 01:57:41 <|3b|> Q9? 01:58:22 Guest14687: It's completely written in lisp. 01:58:25 ,clhs defsetf 01:58:32 Oops  01:58:34 -!- Guest14687 is now known as sellout 01:58:43 clhs defsetf 01:58:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 01:58:55 gigamonkey: Are you the guy who wrote Practical Common Lisp? I love your book! 01:59:08 I am. Thanks! 01:59:44 Probably the best programming book I've read this year. :) 02:00:05 sellout: To be more specific, it's more a "build your own graphics engine kit". It true lisp fashion. 02:00:40 It handles buffers, texture and vertex. It also has text and vector 2d built in using pango and cairo. 02:01:16 WarWeasle: if it's using pango and cairo, it's not pure CL then, is it? 02:01:27 gigamonkey: As long as I've lurked I never made that connction. Your book is the reason I got into lisp! 02:01:42 sellout: well carp. 02:01:43 WarWeasle: excellent 02:02:40 WarWeasle: well, "it's in lisp" doesn't make for great name fodder, unless you want to go the crap route cl-gameengine 02:03:25 WarWeasle: Random suggestion "Clench" (somehow derived from CL Engine) 02:03:34 WarWeasle: What about MGE (Meta Game/Graphics Engine) or something. or 2D Turtles (all the way down) 02:03:47 Bike: It's a lot like Horde3d in design. But instead of a pipeline and entities in xml, I use lisp's compile ability. 02:03:55 Clench? 02:04:04 For the name. 02:04:23 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:42 gridaphobe [~user@cpe-66-91-253-127.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:07 I like that. I'm not ignoreing sellout, but it's short, it's a little dirty and it can also mean "win". 02:05:51 sellout: So something like MetaScope? 02:05:54 Clench can mean "win"? 02:06:00 I like to start Common Lisp project names with CL, as a sort of language pride (like PyEverything). 02:06:16 "Will the Braves clench the pennet this year?" 02:06:27 WarWeasle: clinch 02:06:35 sellout: really? 02:06:56 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 02:07:22 Google define:clench 02:07:35 Apparently clench and clinch are synonyms. :P 02:07:37 Well, you could say clench, it makes grammatical sense, but I don't think it has any connotation of "win" on it's own, whereas clinch does. 02:07:39 msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-74-190-132-32.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:54 alpha123, I think it would be more accurate to say they are derived from the same root. They aren't really synonyms in modern englsih 02:09:30 Thra11_: You're probably right. thefreedictionary.com also has them as synonyms though. 02:09:32 In fact from the view point of lisp newbie, CL indeed is mpre practical than scheme, PCL is a good book ! 02:09:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:49 Clinch. That's good too. 02:10:10 And Clench sounds a little dirty. 02:10:26 Yeah, I'm starting to prefer Clinch 02:10:45 (Clench is most commonly used referring to buttocks, fists and jaws, so...) 02:11:17 :P 02:11:48 *drewc* used to care what he named his projects ... had to make sure they were amusing... ahh the good ol' days 02:12:06 s/jaws/teeth perhaps 02:12:17 drewc: I really want to get some support from the community and I thought a good name would help. 02:12:45 I'm actually interested in a Common Lisp game engine. Does it by any chance support vector graphics? 02:12:54 alpha123: Yes. 02:13:04 alpha123: and text formatting. 02:13:14 Kewl. 02:14:10 I'm definitely interested then. I'm currently rolling my own vector graphics game engine in C with Io as the scripting language. 02:14:11 alpha123: Eventually I want it to support a 3d graphical shell. Using lisp I can create formats and visualization at will. With it I want to make a superapp. 02:14:35 That would be really neat. :) 02:15:46 alpha123: I've given a presentation on "Qix" as I called it. I even created a 3D Powerpoint presentation as a proof of concept. 02:15:51 "WarWeasle graphics engine" <--- my modern self thinks that is a great name... now, whether I am a part of the community remains to be seen, but that name explains _everything_ to me. 02:16:24 drewc: You can be a part of the community when you host a Lisp cruise ;) 02:16:27 drewc: But then what will I call my game company? 02:16:55 WarWeasle Game Company? 02:16:56 sellout: well ... that I can try to do! 02:17:22 WarWeasle: what alpha123 said :) 02:17:22 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:17:55 alpha123: This is the first step. A game engine with which I can prototype games in record time. I just need to create a REPL in a texture I can display on screen. 02:18:23 That would be severely cool. 02:18:39 i do a lot of sdl gamedev in lisp. but i am going to scroll up and read more anyway 02:18:46 alpha123: Think live coding-but you can share the code. 02:19:06 You have me excited. :) 02:20:06 alpha123: I've been excited for quite a while. I just start trying to explain the entire thing and that seems to confuse people. First a graphics engine. Well, a build-your-own-graphics-engine-hobby-kit. 02:20:15 -!- new_one [~peter@50.10.183.158] has left #lisp 02:20:48 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 02:21:39 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 02:21:41 Or I call it a Universal Media Editor, and then I don't think people get it. 02:22:22 I'm not fully sure I understand it, but it sounds really cool. 02:23:24 wasn't dto doing something like that? emacs But For Games or something 02:23:43 alpha123: Simply put, you can store all data in XML, right? Well, XML is just baddly written Lisp. So that combined with a 3DMacs of sorts. 02:23:53 Bike: Yes! But I've had to limit my goals. 02:24:00 Yeah, I get that part. 02:24:15 And then from there it's just real-time building of the game REPL-style? 02:24:19 nothing wrong with limiting to the point you actually finish something 02:24:23 Bike: This is step one. A graphics engine. 02:25:39 Bike: Right. So I made a demo in cl-horde and liked horde. But I didn't like needing xml as a pipeline/entity/ect language. Lisp works much better and you have a real language for the pipeline, etc. 02:25:57 WarWeasle: i wouldnt mind helping here and there, on the graphics portion, if you make a repo and start us off 02:26:15 it certainly sounds like a good project. it's just that i'm deeply skeptical of the ability of programmers to name anything, you see. 02:26:31 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@220.166.238.203] has left #lisp 02:26:35 alpha123: Yes, exactly. Eventually I can use pango for advanced text editing and create real 3d productivity software. 02:26:35 -!- alpha123 is now known as alpha123_rightba 02:26:46 -!- alpha123_rightba is now known as alpha_be_back 02:27:09 WarWeasle: I understand it then. Pretty cool. :) 02:27:18 axion: Thank you! I'm posting it on github presently. It's not pretty, but I need to publish or perish. 02:28:29 i'll follow it if you link 02:28:53 Bike: I also need help drumming community support. I want to prove (the blogger) that said we can't work together, wrong. 02:31:11 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:24 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:35:18 -!- ArmyOfBruce is now known as brucem 02:38:05 https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch 02:38:05 -!- almaraz [~almaraz@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:24 I'm renaming and checking things in now. 02:38:25 stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.38] has joined #lisp 02:39:05 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 02:39:24 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.223.18] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:39 WarWeasle: I've always wanted to prove the people who say the Lisp community perpetually reinvents the wheel wrong too. :) 02:39:49 -!- alpha_be_back is now known as alpha123 02:40:34 To prove it, I'm writing a CL web framework right now. One that is used in real apps and actually has documentation. 02:40:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:41:10 I think the secret is docs. Programmers in general, and especially Lisp programmers, hate documenting things and making them general enough for everyone to use. 02:41:13 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:41:23 another web lisper...head on over to #lispweb 02:41:28 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 02:41:37 We have a #lispweb? Cool. 02:41:42 segv-_ [~mb@dslb-094-223-005-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:49 we also have #lispgames, but i assumed WarWeasle new of it. 02:41:57 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:41:58 knew 02:42:14 alpha123: I think your right. I'm looking at my code and I will need to keep working before I announce. 02:42:34 Bike: Yes, I just didn't get any reponse the last few times I've been there. 02:42:57 WarWeasle: If I can find the time (not likely :( ) I'll see if I can help you document it. 02:43:11 -!- alpha123 is now known as alpha123_dinner 02:44:59 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-245-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:44:59 -!- segv-_ is now known as segv- 02:45:51 *drewc* is currently documenting, and making the test suite of his new library thingie a literate program based on the docs themselves... and it is general enough for everyone to use ... and I love writing/learning/teaching 02:45:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.90.1] 02:46:57 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a1c.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:47:06 I guess I am not a programmer in general, but I am a Lisp developer! :) 02:49:13 drewc: I'd like to see a good example of "literate programming". I thought it meant "Reads like Plain English". 02:49:59 Usually it means you have a bunch of text explaining what you're doing, interspersed with the code. Ready to be made into an explanatory document. The TeXbook would be the most obvious example. 02:50:50 er, TeX: The Program I guess it's called. 02:51:26 Like doxygen? 02:51:56 No. Like writing an essay that happens to be executable. 02:52:50 The line is blurry, I suppose. 02:54:50 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:55:13 WarWeasle: http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html <--- almost all of the source code blocks are tangled, and all the things that are there as 'tutorials' are also source code that is tested. 02:55:57 hm, you changed "return" to "result", huh. 02:56:04 If that is not literate programming, then I am not doing literate programming at all, but rather that. 02:56:23 yeah, CL:RETURN was in my way :| 02:56:40 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a1c.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:56 it's not like the name "return" hasn't been criticized anyway, right? 02:56:58 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 02:57:18 and I could have made it INTERFACE/MONAD:RETURN of course, but yeah exactly. 02:57:44 I wanted to call it CONS for construct ... turns out that was taken as well. 02:57:53 Haha. 02:58:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:58:34 ok, checked in! 02:58:41 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:33 could someone test https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch to make certain I got it all. I just put it under quicklisp/local-projects 03:01:28 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-96-234.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:46 drewc: Am I a bad programmer for not understanding Monads? 03:02:01 I only see the readme, Weasle. 03:03:14 WarWeasle: no, not at all. Explaining why monads are needs and what they really are is on my TODO list. 03:03:25 drewc: so, with your Maybe, could you write a gethash that returns Maybe instead of two values? 03:04:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:04:21 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:04:40 Bike: I did git add and then git commit... 03:04:55 git push 03:05:06 -!- duko [~duko@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:05:51 yeah, for sure ... you would just have to set the empty interface so that something that is not NIL and will not by in the hash table is "false" or in terms, the value of FAIL, then not problem 03:06:13 cool. 03:06:28 Pushed! 03:06:31 like i do in http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-2-4 for that matter :) 03:06:31 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-96-234.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 03:07:05 Oh, sorry. 03:08:08 oh my, toplevel setfs in the example code... 03:08:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:50 -!- alpha123_dinner is now known as alpha123 03:09:21 and is a as well, and follows all the laws that relate to that ... and MAYBE-OR actually calls PLUS, and FAIL calls ZERO ... so the type is sound indeed. 03:09:55 *drewc* is working on that right now and apologizes for typing that here instead of in my other emacs 03:10:19 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 03:11:03 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 03:11:06 I've added a design.org file which explains it. 03:11:15 It's a little dated, though. 03:11:19 riverc4c [~riverc4c@pool-108-41-243-181.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:34 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:12:22 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 03:12:55 Ok, now can someone test https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch 03:13:27 WarWeasle: By "test", do you mean try installing it and playing with it a bit? 03:14:27 alpha123: Yes please. I have an example directory, but you either must be running in that directory or change the path to the file. 03:15:10 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:15:12 Also, I just discovered github displays .org files very nicely! design.org looks like html. 03:15:27 WarWeasle: Is it quicklisp installable? 03:15:49 Yeah, GitHub is very nice for Markdown, ReST, and org files. 03:16:05 https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/smug.org <--- had that there for a long long time :) 03:16:07 alpha123: If you go to quicklisp/local-projects/ and type git clone .... 03:16:18 drewc: You are the SMUG Master? 03:16:33 ayuh 03:16:34 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-209-172.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:17:07 I've been over smug dozens of times. I don't understand the theory, but you allowed me to write a code translator in a day. 03:17:20 I guess that is "thank you" in weaslese. 03:18:27 you are quite welcome! My cl-org-mode taught me that parsers were needed, so I learned things and wrote SMUG ... which is really just monads transformed together ... 03:18:37 drewc: That looks cool. I really don' 03:18:42 oops.... 03:19:15 drewc: That looks coo. I really don't know anything about monads, but it looks easy enough to use. 03:19:23 so, http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#ID-e7f7a12e-0e0b-495b-a766-4f5f23676187 is going to become the new SMUG 03:19:34 k0001_ [~k0001@host48.181-1-200.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:19:40 And probably beats hand-rolling parsers (which is what I usually do). 03:20:12 drewc: hm, have you read steele's paper about writing evals with monads? 03:20:13 alpha123: Just be certain to remember the difference between inclusive and exclusive ANDs. 03:20:29 drewc: It looks a lot like Scala's parser combinators (which I'm remotely familiar with). 03:20:32 well, pseudomonads, actually. 03:20:32 Or your parser might be a little slow. 03:20:34 alpha123: the smug.org and the SMUG lib itself should teach enough to know that monads are useful for parsing 03:20:45 alpha123: yes, all based on the same paper 03:20:47 drewc: sorry, how can I open you link in the new frame window? 03:21:05 Gooder: At least for me (in Opera) middle-click it. 03:21:47 I load the w3m, so ... the w3m buffer is up and the #lisp is gone. 03:21:51 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-108-73-164-28.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:09 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-150-131-110.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:22:13 -!- segmond_ is now known as segmond 03:22:20 alpha123: so it is in haskell, gofer, scala, and others. monadic parser combinators are all around. 03:22:54 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host239.186-109-96.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:23:02 Well, Haskell is a monad, made of monads with monads in it. 03:23:21 Monads all the way down... 03:23:22 Gooder: and C-x b does not get you back to it? beyond that, I do not know, because I use Conkeror for www browsing. 03:23:36 what's the monoid operation of haskell? 03:23:46 drewc: Cool. What's a good resource for someone who knows some functional programming (JavaScript, Erlang, Lisp) to learn about monads? Please nothing about type theory or whatever. I'm only in Algebra 2. :P 03:24:05 it's not type theory, it's category theory. 03:24:06 drewc: Same question. 03:24:17 drewc's docs there seem pretty good. they're really not that hard. 03:24:23 Bike: isn't it => 03:24:30 I don't know what that means? 03:24:32 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:25:11 Bike: All I know is that you need to know monads to learn Haskell. So I don't know Haskell. 03:25:14 cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:26 ^^ That's me. 03:25:34 they're really not that hard. they're used as a sort of generalized "let". 03:25:48 where you specify how binding works, which seems to be what drewc's "BIND" macro indeed does. 03:25:55 WarWeasle: I don't think that's true. Learn You a Haskell does a pretty good job of teaching it without talking about monad stuff. 03:25:57 well, if smug.org is not enough, and CL:LET* is not an identity monad LET* yet, then http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html comes after ... and anything you do not understand please email drewc@drewc.org and we can discuss it 03:26:07 -!- riverc4c [~riverc4c@pool-108-41-243-181.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:26:13 Bike: and BIND is a GENERIC function lol :) 03:26:19 oops. 03:26:23 drewc: so, have you read the paper? 03:26:32 MLET* is the macro :) 03:26:40 and yes, yes I have 03:26:52 cool. 03:27:28 Bike: though, it has been a while, so on my list of things to read again 03:27:44 Anyone get CLinch to work? 03:28:02 just, eval through monads seems lie an obviously "lispy" thing to do. 03:28:12 WarWeasle: I forgot where my quicklisp/local-projects was. :P 03:28:45 Found it! 03:28:50 https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch/blob/master/design.org 03:28:51 yeah, it is... and in fact I plan on making my Kernel thing all full of monads 03:29:17 and steele even mentioned "at points i wanted to do this in CL or Scheme but figured i should stick with the original notation" or something, so :P 03:29:39 first the sexp parser, then the interpreter, and compiler, and all that sort of thing ... first in CL then in Kernel 03:29:45 heh .. I remember that :) 03:30:13 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:41 "Building Interpreters by Composing Monads" right? 03:30:58 yes. 03:31:11 cool, that is on my TODO list 03:31:24 -!- cafaro_ [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31:40 cafaro [~tman@37.251.16.95] has joined #lisp 03:31:40 -!- cafaro [~tman@37.251.16.95] has quit [Changing host] 03:31:40 cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has joined #lisp 03:31:52 because heh ... that is exactly what I plan to do ... and Steele is for some reason one to look up to 03:31:57 WarWeasle: Does Clinch work in Clozure CL? 03:32:05 alpha123: Likely not 03:32:14 OK. SBCL? 03:32:15 WarWeasle: Why not?! 03:32:19 SBCL. 03:32:27 WarWeasle: CCL is the most important implementation to support! 03:32:34 Darn you, you'll make me have to restart emacs! 03:32:48 sellout: Is Clozure CL common? 03:32:51 sellout: I'd say SBCL is, but CCL is second. 03:32:52 drewc: maybe it's the "behind half a dozen languages, and genius programmer" thing 03:33:02 WarWeasle: It's very common, especially on Windows and OS X 03:33:07 alpha123: why would you have to restart emacs to switch implementations? 03:33:08 *sellout* works for Clozure. 03:33:25 Bike: that may be it, that may be it indeed. 03:33:39 alpha123: Is it a common lisp implemination? It should work, but I thought clozure was it's own language. 03:33:40 sellout, maybe we'll be talking soon 03:33:56 Bike: Wait, can I switch my Lisp implementation while Emacs is running? 03:34:09 ctrl-u meta-x slime 03:34:10 WarWeasle: Yes, it's a common lisp implementation. That Clojure. 03:34:19 alpha123: of course. M-- M-x slime to pick an implementation, and M-x slime-cycle-connections and so on to switch between them. 03:34:21 Qworkescence: Oh? You leaving your company, or are they planning to hire us? ;) 03:34:40 My mistake, I don't know how I could have confused the two. If it supports quicklisp, then it should work. 03:34:42 accept the mystery 03:34:44 whistlewright [~user@li281-170.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:45 alpha123: slime is just a mode, why would you need to restart emacs? 03:34:51 WarWeasle: Thanks! 03:35:07 Bike: Probably because I'm a bit new to Common Lisp and not well versed in Emacs-lore. 03:35:24 alpha123: If you ever think "I need to restart emacs," you have to review your assumptions. 03:35:27 alpha123: Only one person is well versed in Emacs, and he wrote it. 03:35:32 lol 03:35:33 I restart emacs when my OS crashes  03:35:35 hm, it's not mentioned on slime-cheat-sheet either. 03:35:49 sellout: Good to know. I knew I was doing something wrong. 03:35:51 sellout: You mean emacs *isn't* your OS? 03:35:57 alpha123: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multiple-connections.html 03:36:14 WarWeasle: It's close. I even use eshell. 03:36:14 *drewc* uses 'ssh -X notebook emacsclient -c' 03:36:28 ...and that doesn't mention slime-cycle-connections. docs may be a bit out of date here. 03:36:49 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:36:54 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.38] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 03:36:54 Can I change implementations without restarting SLIME? 03:36:55 sellout: It lacks a good text editor though. 03:37:05 lol 03:37:08 alpha123: you won't be restarting slime. 03:37:49 it'll just pop up another *inferior-lisp*, and then *slime-repl ccl*. 03:37:55 stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.38] has joined #lisp 03:38:01 Bike: Noticed. :) 03:38:38 WarWeasle: Loading Clinch as we speak. :) 03:38:49 ..... 03:38:54 Looks like I need Cairo (which I thought I had). 03:39:02 I shudder in antici---------- 03:39:10 Before I get too far, I should let you know I'm on Windows. 03:40:10 Crap. I could never get cl-cairo2 to work with windows. 03:41:02 :( 03:41:35 WarWeasle: You'll just have to _actually_ do a pure-CL implementation ;) 03:41:41 Don't despair yet. I've gotten all sorts of things to work on Windows that never should have. I just don't know if I have the time tonight. 03:42:01 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:15 Anyone have cl and Linux? 03:42:20 cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:27 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:43:51 The good news: I have libcairo-2.dll. The bad news: It's from 2009. 03:44:22 Wait, I found one from 2011. And one from 2006. I need to clean up a bit. 03:44:34 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:51:06 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.36.39] has joined #lisp 03:51:12 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:51:43 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 03:51:48 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 03:52:26 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:53 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 03:53:03 alpha123: Any luck? 03:53:39 WarWeasle: Not so far. I put the newest libcairo-2.dll on my path and it still can't load it. :( 03:54:01 I get missing symbol errors. 03:56:44 WarWeasle: After invoking the use-value restart with C:/Gtk+2.24.10/bin/libcairo-2.dll I get: Package "C" not found 03:57:15 alpha123: You want want to quote that path. 03:57:42 *alpha123* smacks himself in the face 03:57:46 Right, duh. 03:58:07 Honestly I should have noticed that. Package C not found... duh. 03:58:21 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:24 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:00:04 The value "C:/Gtk+2.24.10/bin/libcairo-2.dll" is not of type LIST. 04:01:26 '("c:/...") ? 04:02:02 Tried that. It worked, but then: 04:02:05 Unable to load foreign library (LIBRARY-964). 04:02:05 Error opening shared object "C:\\Gtk+2.24.10\\bin\\libcairo-2.dll": 04:02:05 126. 04:02:32 Are you running on 64 bit? 04:02:39 Yes. 04:02:54 -!- benny [~user@i577A1C97.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:04 Although I'm not sure if my SBCL is 64-bit or not. 04:03:04 The dll is 32 I bet. 04:03:19 Probably. I thought I had 32-bit SBCL too though. 04:03:50 Oh, then you likely have a mismatch. Well, It's getting bedtime for me. Thanks for your help. If you get it going just let me know at warweasle1@gmail.com 04:04:15 Good night :) 04:04:25 I'll try a bit more to see if I can get it running. 04:04:46 Night all! 04:04:54 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-223-226-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:07 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: all hope lost] 04:05:15 basic82 [3df5a82b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.168.43] has joined #lisp 04:07:16 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:07:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:07:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-099.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:08:08 -!- alpha123 is now known as alpha123_gone 04:09:55 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 04:10:36 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:19 -!- gridaphobe 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Emacs)] 06:29:16 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.38] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 06:30:26 stlifey [~stlifey@112.96.100.38] has joined #lisp 06:31:04 is (the * ...) legal? 06:31:31 -!- alpha123_gone is now known as alpha123 06:32:37 Bike: not convinced. * and t aren't equivalent. 06:33:17 that's what I thought. it works in sbcl and ccl (probably because of how cmu types work) and abcl gives a dumb error. 06:34:03 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36:45 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:39:28 -!- alpha123 is now known as alpha123_gone 06:40:46 -!- alpha123_gone [~turkchess@184-96-192-56.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 06:43:02 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 06:49:55 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:52:25 -!- biscarch [~chris@108.83.17.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 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can i just add one at the end with (print #\Newline)? or is that bad for some reason? 07:08:38 robot-beethoven, memo from pjb-v: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134123 07:08:59 robot-beethoven: you can use terpri. 07:11:09 AndroUser [~androirc@94.197.127.116.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:12:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.43.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:12:12 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:12:34 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:25 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:14:35 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 07:16:52 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:17:32 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:44 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 07:20:19 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:20:43 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:20:55 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:08 robot-beethoven: did you bind *print-readably* to T? 07:22:25 You can use PRIN1 and TERPRI. 07:23:32 robot-beethoven: you may also use pprint (or bind *print-pretty* to T), adjusting *print-right-margin*. 07:25:19 Bike, pjb: PRIN1 and TERPRI seem to give me what i want 07:28:25 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:29:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-103-135.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:06 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:47 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 07:33:17 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:36:11 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has 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10:58:43 Hi all. All though I do most of my programming in Haskell these days. 10:58:56 Thought I would drop by 11:00:25 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:00:51 -!- bniels [~niels@p4FD6D88C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:33 younder: Any handy tecnniques from Haskell that you'd bring over if you were to program lisp again? 11:01:49 *techniques 11:02:22 #haskell sounds like a good place to discuss haskell techniques 11:03:02 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:03:35 Ys, lazyness is sometimes useful. The series library s useful here 11:10:57 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:24 -!- pjb [~t@92.103.75.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:15:15 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:24 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:28:00 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 11:32:21 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:22 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32:32 bniels [~niels@p4FD6D88C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.90.1] 11:37:06 free_tinker [~androirc@94.197.127.71.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:40:39 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:45:53 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:47:02 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:58 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:17 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.19.237] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:17 astertronistic [~astertron@ip68-8-238-110.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:25 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.19.237] has joined #lisp 11:53:47 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 11:54:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 11:54:52 -!- terjesb [~terjesb@ec2-54-247-167-129.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 11:57:42 xmj [~xmj@copyfree/advocate/xmj] has joined #lisp 11:57:48 Hi. 11:58:01 I just found my way into LISP. It's awesome. I love it. Whoa. 11:59:30 (setf mind 'blown) 11:59:40 and it's called Lisp 12:00:39 Common Lisp, to be exact 12:02:43 Doesn't change the fact it's one of the more awesome things since sliced bread. 12:04:06 no, it doesn't :) 12:04:30 gabk [~gabk@31.45.198.50] has joined #lisp 12:04:44 i don't like sliced bread, so that's not hard to achieve 12:05:21 ha! 12:07:26 umm... 12:07:39 Good point - better than bacon. 12:07:50 Now please don't tell me you don't eat bacon. 12:08:06 right, i don't, it's unhealthy! 12:08:16 and let's stop at this point 12:08:50 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:18 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 Exactly. My admiration clearly doesn't depend on your culinary tastes :} 12:11:36 I was wondering ... After I've munched my way through Graham's ANSI Common Lisp, what would be a good follow-up? 12:11:42 let's drift to better common lisp recipes now :) 12:11:58 xmj: Practical Common Lisp and the standard itself I guess 12:12:08 minion: PAIP? 12:12:08 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 12:12:16 go find a project you want to actually implement in Lisp too 12:12:18 while skipping the first chapter 12:13:33 QuickSilver__ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:36 dim: shouldn't be hard; the web says dataminers use Lisp frequently. 12:13:50 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:13:56 xmj: interesting. any pointers? 12:13:58 are you interested in coding a dataminer for yourself? 12:14:16 si. 12:14:46 prxq: I did a google research which other language would be interesting for DM, except R and to a lesser extent python. 12:15:58 dim: Actually, plan would be 1) learn lisp 2) get good at it 3) write fun software (to learn, 'fcourse) 4) write a decent miner which has some unique features competitors don't have. 12:16:14 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:16 my point is that IME your points 1) 2) and 3) are actually the same, you learn best a new language by using it in a project 12:19:07 yes, but starting a project without even rutimentary knowledge of the syntax (which is a slight bit different for Lisp...) can / will be a huge pain in the ass. 12:20:47 I guess it boils down to how you learn, it's the first problem to solve to write any code, right? 12:21:19 Sure. 12:26:30 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.36.39] has joined #lisp 12:29:01 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 12:29:12 francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176366805.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:30:07 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:30:40 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 12:32:34 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:31 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:33:41 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 12:37:05 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:37:52 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:39:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-103-135.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:41:45 xmj: the syntax is trivial. No? 12:43:50 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 12:44:00 Mindblowingly so. 12:44:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.36.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:44:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:44:17 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 12:44:48 speaking about learning lisp 12:45:03 what is the best source to learn about lisp type system? 12:45:15 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:18 there's not much to learn about it 12:45:20 type specifiers, the concepts behind it and it's motivation 12:45:40 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 12:45:49 clhs 4.2 12:45:49 Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_b.htm 12:46:31 I know this source 12:47:45 good then, you don't need anything else 12:50:16 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:26 antonv: look at the books. Like PAIP or graham's ACL 12:51:50 DreamlikeAI [~lia@44.182.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:54:12 Raptum [~Raptum@168.8.27.4] has joined #lisp 12:54:44 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:54:46 prxq: i see in the ACL's table of contents a chapter about types. as for PAIP, I have it - it doesn't explain what want 12:55:02 and what do you want? 12:55:13 cl type are rather simplistic, there's not much to tell about them 12:55:31 I have feeling that CL type system is somehow unifnished, or it's integration into the language is not finished 12:55:48 antonv: ACL Chapter 3 does a good job - I'm trying to wrap my head around that right now. 12:56:00 nah. it's just abstract. 12:56:20 for example, I can create type specifier (function (character finxum) boolean) 12:56:31 and what next? 12:56:40 you can use it to make promises to the compiler 12:57:03 what do you expect from the language to do with that specifier 12:57:04 and to direct the flow of your program based on types 12:57:16 what is the point to have a sublanguage for type specifiers, if they are not used anyhow? 12:57:20 stassats: not with that type 12:57:28 antonv: they are used 12:57:56 antonv: it is just that cl does not revolve around types like other languages revolve round their type systems. 12:58:01 why do you think they are not used? 12:58:10 (I won't argue that the CL types are perfect, or even terribly well-thought-out, but they do get used) 12:58:26 antonv: you can get away with not knowing much about the cl type system until you need to optimize your program, basically. 12:58:37 Krystof: i was talking in general 12:59:59 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-48-12.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:00:22 I know I can add declarations to variables 13:00:23 typep, check-type, typecase are used often outside of optimzations 13:00:36 is that all what types are for? 13:00:42 stassats: yeah. that is not much, i'd say 13:00:45 antonv: What do you want to achieve? 13:01:05 to understand place of type system in the language 13:01:09 -!- Austere [~T4000@c-24-98-161-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:39 optimization, verification, dispatching 13:01:39 It is used by the compiler/interpreter to well, correctly translate/interpret your program 13:02:18 (and the compiler can basically disregard declarations and defer error handling to runtime) 13:02:22 CL is dynamic in nature, so a named storage space does not designate its type and thus not the interpretation of the data it stores 13:02:39 guaqua: it can disregard completely, at run-time too 13:02:54 stassats: i tried to say that :) 13:02:55 antonv: you can write idiomatic lisp without ever considering the type system. it is a useful part of the toolset, but it is not central. 13:03:02 it is the dynamic context that is needed to find a valid (or invalid in case of an error) interpretation for a given storage space 13:03:03 The way I understand it right now, most things in Lisp are lists. Is that remotely correct? 13:03:09 stassats: but started thinking about type error handling halfway through the sentence... 13:03:09 xmj: no 13:03:10 xmj: not even 13:03:12 Except for generics 13:03:18 huh, too bad. 13:04:26 naryl: generic-functions don't work on types, but on classes 13:05:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:07:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:00 H4ns: I wouldn't support that. You have to know what type of data some given function expects to see, even if you don't explicitly qualify your data before calling that function. 13:09:29 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 13:10:13 afaik that's mostly just documented on the docstring, if it's not otherwise clear 13:10:21 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 13:11:17 and knowing type system vs knowing the types for a given function are two very different things 13:11:47 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:51 i.e. actually knowing how it works vs being able to provide the right kind of arguments for a given function 13:11:56 spacefrogg: of course. i was exaggerating. it makes sense to learn what data types exist, but you don't necessarily need to know how type specifiers work and how the compiler uses type information. 13:12:18 that's true 13:12:57 and that is different from other languages, where the type system itself often plays a central role. like, for example, C, where you need to specify the type of each variable and each argument. 13:18:37 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:18:57 aye 13:22:03 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:22:46 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176366805.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 13:23:20 guys, do you want to hear interesting thing about types I learned recently? 13:23:38 not really 13:24:07 are you sure? maybe thing again 13:24:13 think 13:24:44 pretty sure 13:25:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:25:49 well, i am at least curious 13:25:51 )))) 13:26:26 antonv: perhaps try #lispcafe 13:26:42 *phadthai* joins there 13:27:22 ok 13:27:42 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:23 stassats: what was the basis of your assessment? 13:30:59 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:31:59 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.87.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:32:04 prxq: "look into mirror, see bored face" => nay 13:32:42 jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has joined #lisp 13:34:03 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.87.197] has joined #lisp 13:34:12 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c85.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:36:42 I'm quite happy that we don't have in Lisp the void * tricks that you can't espace in C... sometimes I wish I had a generic functions with multiple dispatch lib in C 13:36:46 maybe that exists? 13:37:07 dim: not in this channel 13:37:11 :D 13:37:19 fair enough :) 13:37:23 dim: there is a clos for c. 13:37:31 somewhere on sourceforge 13:37:32 *H4ns* wants to run 13:38:04 that thing? http://sourceforge.net/projects/cos/ 13:38:10 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-11-136.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:38:13 yes 13:40:04 bubo [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 thx 13:42:13 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has 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paul0 [~paulo@177.132.101.212] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 Gooder [~user@221.197.5.151] has joined #lisp 15:42:59 (how) does s-sql support UPDATE foo SET foo.a = bar.a FROM bar WHERE bar.id = foo.bar_id? 15:46:41 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:43 *dim* refrains very hard to commenting about just using SQL 15:53:04 damn, too late. again... 15:53:19 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:19 i've certainly done that already 15:54:07 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:54:47 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-a9cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:54:57 -!- Gooder [~user@221.197.5.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:19 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:24 tjasko__ [~Jasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:08:01 -!- engblom` is now known as engblom 16:08:48 CatMtKing [~ra1nyman@138.23.59.162] has joined #lisp 16:09:24 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has quit [Quit: francisl] 16:10:18 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 16:11:58 -!- gabk [~gabk@31.45.198.50] has quit [Quit: gabk] 16:15:08 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.190] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:54 QuickSilver_ [~ait@67-198-71-189.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:20:23 -!- bniels [~niels@p4FD6D88C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:37 H4ns: i'm pretty sure it doesn't. 16:21:07 where and returning are there, but from isn't and i don't think you can bend :raw the right way to get it in there 16:21:16 (and when you start using :raw you might as well just use sql....) 16:22:17 (aside: with cl-interpol's #?( ... ) syntax i've got the nice indentation and completion of lisp symbols but without having to learn s-sql's syntax. ) 16:23:50 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:00 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:24:38 *dlowe* recommends you bend s-sql and improve it for everyone. 16:25:33 dnolen [~user@64.124.192.210] has joined #lisp 16:27:34 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:15 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@67-198-71-189.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: QuickSilver_] 16:29:07 dnolen` [user@nat/hackerschool.com/x-zjqigyfvnthqgoyi] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:30:47 -!- dnolen [~user@64.124.192.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 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[~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru` 17:39:45 can someone point me to information regarding using a setf list as the function-name of a defmethod? i dont really understand it 17:40:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:42:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 17:42:44 (defmethod (setf foo) (new-value (first-parameter (eql :bar))) new-value) 17:42:49 (setf (foo :bar) 3) => 3 17:44:44 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:46 (setf (foo nil) 3) => no applicable method 17:45:09 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@ccn242.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 17:45:21 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 17:45:34 ah i think i get it, thanks 17:45:54 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:46:05 a setf function only received one value 17:46:21 if you need to pass multiple values to a setf form, you need a setf expander 17:46:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:47:00 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:47:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:10 *|3b|* thought you could pass arbitrary args to a setf function? 17:50:31 nope 17:50:38 *|3b|* wouldn't be surprised if setf GFs defined by defclass only took 1 arg though 17:51:03 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:51:19 well, it's a simple function call, so, no multiple-values 17:51:40 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:51:46 <|3b|> fe[nl]ix: any idea where the spec covers that? 17:52:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 17:52:55 <|3b|> stassats: well, you can m-v-call it if you want that interpretation too 17:54:10 Yuuhi [benni@84.131.162.54] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:03 <|3b|> but since there is some ambiguity, just to make sure: i'm talking about something like (defun (setf foo) (new-val x y z) new-val) being valid or not 17:55:25 it's certainly valid 17:55:26 ah well, that's supported, naturally 17:55:41 but what do you think that x, y & z are ? 17:56:02 <|3b|> (setf (foo x y z) new) <- same as there 17:56:13 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.87.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:44 ok, but that's not multiple values 17:56:52 new is one value 17:57:06 <|3b|> ok, i misinterpreted what you meant then, ignore me :) 17:57:17 (setf (foo) (values 1 2 3)) 17:57:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 you need a setf expander for that case, 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fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:00 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:28 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.223.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:39:52 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:40:16 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:18 -!- jaimef_ [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:40:24 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:10 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 19:42:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:59 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 19:47:02 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-005-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 19:48:35 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:51:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:51:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 19:51:41 What is "progn" short for? 19:52:10 rking: compare it to e.g. prog1 19:52:10 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:12 "PROG returning the Nth (final) value" 19:52:14 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:52:14 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 19:52:17 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:52:24 Oh, Ok 19:53:25 I wonder if (prog2 a b c d) is considered bad style. 19:54:01 In fact, I just got into a discussion this morning about the dubiousness of .tap in Ruby, which is similar to (prog1) 19:54:12 Since prog2 is specified to do the same thing as prog1, just use prog1. :) 19:54:15 (I'm on the side of it being OK to use) 19:54:45 Oh, I thought it meant it would return b 19:54:51 (For the uninitiated: Joke, the spec is wrong.) 19:55:22 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:24 foom: Oh. 19:55:39 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:52 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:53 rking: prog2's kind of weird but if it's what you need it's what you need. 19:56:10 Bike: Yeah, I'm all for it. I just wonder if some people would frown upon it. 19:56:20 depends on the context, probably. 19:56:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 19:56:27 Well, the most common use of prog2 is if you should be using unwind-protect, but didn't. 19:57:26 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.129.23] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:57:37 So, while it can be useful, and is not always wrong, by far the most useful thing about it is that it has a name, so you can grep for it and remove it. 19:57:45 heh. 20:00:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:01:07 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:01:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:01:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 homie [~homie@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:10 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:18 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:05:31 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:05:43 homie [~homie@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:04 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-87-79-249-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 20:11:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:12:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:12:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 20:14:10 Sisyphus_of_IT [~james@99-157-106-84.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:38 (prog2 (incf i) (incf i) (incf i)) ; no unwind-protect involved ehre. 20:15:08 pjb: (1- (incf i 3)) 20:15:25 no unwind protect either! 20:15:55 The undo may be more costly than 1-. 20:16:46 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:17:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 20:20:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:21:50 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:22:43 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@177.141.158.47] has joined #lisp 20:28:58 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:37 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:43 axion1 [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:48 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[~philip@85.218.236.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:12:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:49 Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 21:21:05 the 1- use here looks bad style to me, and doubly so 21:21:16 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 21:22:23 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:22:24 -!- v0|d [~user@95.9.238.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:22:27 dim: why? 21:23:07 it's like and instead of if. 21:24:20 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:24:21 a. use 1- in HOF context only (mapcar and friends), it's confusing to read otherwise and b. the example is not about incf but about prog2, using a numeric trick just not to use prog2 looks to me very bad on principle 21:24:29 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 21:24:34 (readability of the code, etc) 21:26:49 v0|d [~user@95.9.238.159] has joined #lisp 21:27:06 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:33 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 21:27:44 jcr [~jcr003@74.61.91.195] has joined #lisp 21:28:48 the "numerical trick" is likely to be closer to the problem domain in that narrow case, I would say, so it makes sense. I think the existence of 1- is already bad style :-) 21:29:16 x.x-1 would have been better 21:29:22 prxq: (defmacro post-incf (place &optional (increment 1)) ...) is much closer. 21:29:38 nah 21:30:45 it's not even the same in this case, I think 21:30:57 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:45 -!- v0|d [~user@95.9.238.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:45 -!- aboob_ [~aboob@137.186.134.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:12 prxq: well, it would be incf/post-incf... or two optional increments, but that's getting hairy. 21:33:08 *jasom* uses (1- (incf place)) for post-icrement all the time 21:33:34 v0|d [~user@95.9.238.159] has joined #lisp 21:40:21 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 21:41:40 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:48:26 -!- saac [~saac@a85-138-109-155.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:48:40 -!- 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