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https://gist.github.com/4230036 it's line 48 in the gist 01:41:09 cornihilio, memo from pjb: we don't need the line number in error messages, because just typing v in the *sldb* buffer (slime debugger) will brink you to the line. Usually. Otherwise the problem is that lisp sources are cons cells, and cons cells don't have a line number (character read from file have, but what about character you create in memory?) Most cons cells compiled are created in memory by macros. 01:42:02 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:42:35 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:43:57 cornihilio: are you sure it's not the addpage method? you seem to have included the closing parenthesis in a comment. 01:50:00 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:51:36 Bike: you are right! thank you so much! 01:51:47 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:06 -!- fms [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:52:23 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:26 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:30 mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has joined #lisp 01:52:40 I've noticed that I often end up screwing up my parens, is there a way to prevent that? is there something like a flymake setup for lisp? 01:52:43 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:52:54 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:30 err I guess c-k is what I should be using instead of quickload all the time... sorry I just remembered 01:53:44 there's paredit. 01:54:02 whats a good book to start learning lisp 01:54:16 i've got some limited experience with scheme, but i'd like to learn CL 01:54:18 minion: tell mindcruzer about pcl 01:54:19 mindcruzer: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:54:35 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 01:54:39 awesome 01:54:48 have a feeling im going to love it 01:54:53 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:03 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:55:07 mindcruzer: it's really pretty great. have fun (: 01:55:25 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:31 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:59:19 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:50 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 02:01:46 -!- gridaphobe [~user@128.54.41.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:03:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-68.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:05:15 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:05:19 *jasom* found a bug in ltk 02:05:44 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:06:04 -!- SrPx [bad4ba35@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.212.186.53] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:06:10 loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:06:27 SrPx [bad4ba35@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.212.186.53] has joined #lisp 02:07:40 They complained because I asked if I could ask a question on node.js! Can I ask to ask a question here? 02:08:08 jk, my doubt is about statements. Lisp doesn't have those, right? The only way to eval expressions sequentially is using do? 02:08:53 SrPx: I'm not sure I am right, but I think progn is similar to what you want 02:09:09 many constructs have an 'implicit progn' for convenience. 02:09:41 -!- Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:40 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:00 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:12:05 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:12:28 Bike: oh, it's "progn" instead of "do" on CL? Sorry. So, I noticed how that pattern was common, indeed, when programming a dialect. Bike what are some examples? 02:12:40 cornihilio: too /\ 02:13:19 let, lambda, defun, cond... basically lots of things. 02:13:46 there's also prog1, prog2, multiple-value-prog1, for getting results differently from the evaluation order. 02:14:02 in CL, "do" is actually an iteration construct. which has an implicit progn too, actually. 02:15:14 oh, and a few other special forms have sequential evaluation built in. catch, block, tagbody, progv, eval-when, let*, flet, labels... basically it's silly to think that lisp doesn't have side effectual operations. 02:19:12 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.202.223] has joined #lisp 02:19:17 is there a better way of representing this relationship?: https://gist.github.com/4230212 02:19:46 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 02:19:49 cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:03 I think Java has made me have a really warped view of oo stuff 02:21:53 cornihilio: Yes. 02:21:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.178.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:22:43 cornihilio: That was about Java giving you a warped view  not whether the there's a better representation. 02:23:35 cornihilio: Java tends to do that. (pc is stresstesting, will look in a sec) 02:24:31 cornihilio: i have no clue what you're trying to express 02:27:02 -!- auganov [~user@83.238.159.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:29:47 I think oo in lisp is so much crazier - it lets me do whatever I want instead of breaking my arm 02:29:58 crazier in a good way that is 02:31:21 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:31:30 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:58 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f7020b0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:32:10 Bike: ty ! 02:32:32 I was not aware of that. 02:32:41 cornihilio: i remember the feeling you're having now. the feeling of being let out of a cage... 02:32:56 Bike: so lambda actually evaluates every separed statement and returns the last? 02:33:34 SrPx: (funcall (lambda () (print 3) (print 4) 5)) => 5; prints 3, 4 02:34:05 Bike: wat that was precisely the example I was using here o.o 02:35:35 Bike: let too, then? (let (a 'b c 'd) (print a) (print c) 5) -> 'b, 'd, returns 5? 02:35:48 not sure I got the forms right 02:36:54 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-0-171.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:55 SrPx: the bindings are surrounded in another layer of parens: (let ((a 'b) (c 'd)) (print a) (print c) 5) 02:38:19 and yes, it's the same result as Bike's (funcall (lambda () ...)) example 02:40:39 OK ty (: 02:40:48 np 02:40:50 I really wish more people used Lisp 02:41:07 well, we're working on it :) 02:41:11 Except for some design choices it is the perfect language 02:41:26 Superficial choices that is 02:41:36 some of it is a bit verbose, but i agree its definitely my favorite 02:42:15 I wonder if there is a lib or something you can use to fix those issues ? Like the whole lisp-two / funcall thing ? 02:42:49 well, there was smoeone who implemented PG's "arc" language on top of common lisp 02:42:57 i cant remember where it was though 02:43:09 Interesting, but why would you do that instead of just using arc? 02:43:27 arc is pretty much CL without those stuff, is not it ? 02:43:30 good question 02:43:54 I couldn't find a good explanation on what arc actually is, PG's manual is for non-programmers so it explains lisp in general 02:44:19 its kind of a cross between scheme and lisp as far as i could tell from playing with it 02:44:42 i did like some of the syntax choices, but the language never really gained traction 02:44:54 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:44:55 orthecreedence: any idea why? 02:45:17 i guess because scheme and lisp already exist and people are busy using those instead 02:45:31 PG alone brought more people to CL and Clojure to Arc. That's funny. 02:45:36 than to * 02:45:42 bought ?* 02:45:51 orthecreedence: uh huh. 02:45:55 brought 02:45:56 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:46:01 (: 02:46:05 :) 02:46:31 its a cool project, but when i think of the reasons that make me want to leave CL for it, they are incredibly superficial 02:46:32 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 02:46:36 Greetings lispers 02:46:44 Hey! 02:46:49 orthecreedence: which are them 02:46:52 not to mention there are no libraries and not as much of a community around it 02:47:07 things that are hard to remember because i've gotten over them 02:47:13 orthecreedence: can't you use libraries from other lisps or even languages on it? 02:47:19 i used to like the idea of one namespace for vaiables, functions, etc 02:47:39 orthecreedence: this is my main problem with cl 02:47:43 so (let ((myfn (lambda (x) (+ 5 x)))) (myfn 6)) => 11 02:48:02 orthecreedence: or just fn instead of lambra maybe ? (: 02:48:06 lambda 02:48:20 doing (funcall myfn 6) isn't so bad, and not having to remember which variables are functions and whatnot is actually pretty nice 02:48:39 SrPx: what's your problem with cl? 02:48:41 orthecreedence: I think it is THAT bad, but well, just opinion 02:48:55 i used to as well, but like i said, i got over it 02:49:03 and don't really miss it now 02:49:13 its just one of those scheme vs lisp things 02:49:34 and there's always flet/labels 02:49:42 orthecreedence: mainly what you, I guess, call 'historical artifacts'... like the funcall thing. But I'd try it if it was a web language. Unfortunatelly I'm tied to JavaScript so I'm implementing my own lisp dialect there 02:50:03 oh interesting 02:50:11 has nobody done lisp over JS yet? 02:50:15 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:17 many, many 02:50:36 But none 'my way', and it's not hard, so why not 02:50:51 it sounds liek a fun project 02:50:58 For example, I really wanted curried functions. Lisp doesn't have those, so the ports too 02:51:04 but my macros are different 02:51:15 tbh I have no idea what I'm doing is even legal 02:51:23 SrPx: i don't mean to be mean, but if you don't even know let syntax you may not be in a position to make a notably interesting lisp. 02:51:32 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:47 but there are no S-expressions so my macros can work on any object. for example, you can set a macro that will transform every string to uppercase and voila, your entire source goes uppercase 02:51:53 SrPx: also, the common cl "alexandria" library includes some currying. 02:52:21 Bike: I know the let syntax in many languages if that helps? 02:52:40 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:42 in what language is it like you said? 02:52:46 but no I don't want to public (spelling?) it 02:52:57 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:59 it's just, the lisp community is fragmented enough, you know? 02:53:08 Bike: I just guessed man relax 02:53:18 no worries. 02:53:21 Bike: I - don't - pretend to make it public ! 02:53:35 no worries / 02:53:47 no worries /2 * 02:54:38 But now that you said 02:54:55 Bike: the Lisp community is indeed too fragmented, that is mostly the problem with lisp 02:55:09 well, have you read "Lisp in Small Pieces"? it's probably one of the most useful book on implementing lisps. 02:55:14 segv-_ [~mb@dslb-088-075-151-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:19 I have already implemented it... 02:55:31 Bike: tbh if people at Clojure, Scheme and Lisp united, today.. 02:55:35 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:55:59 lisp would easily become mainstream 02:56:14 not just because of the quantity, but because that alone would attract many people 02:56:18 perhaps, but uniting them is the hard part 02:56:26 they all split off for different reasons 02:56:27 someone has to make a Lisp that is unfragmentable. 02:56:35 like a Lisp tied to a wikipedia of code or something 02:56:39 heh, good luck with that 02:57:01 so the solution for fragmentation is creating another lisp? :) 02:57:03 anyway, LiSP may be good for improvement as well. efficiency, design, whatever. 02:57:13 I won't do that I develop games about ponnies and stuff u.u 02:57:35 one lisp to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them 02:57:46 kennyd: it is indeed 02:57:51 that 02:58:07 a Lisp that makes clojurers, lispers and schemes happy 02:58:14 and is good enough to convince them to use it 02:58:14 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-159-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:58:14 -!- segv-_ is now known as segv- 02:58:26 im personally very happy with CL already 02:58:41 I know, but that IS a problem 02:58:43 and the thought of reimplementing everything ive built in a NEW lisp doesnt really appeal 02:58:51 the fact you love CL too much IS a problem (: 02:58:52 SrPx: To do that, you're going to need to understand clojure, CL, and scheme. To understand them, you're actually going to have to use them for quite a while. 02:59:09 ThomasH: not me, somebody else 02:59:15 SrPx: a problem for you, not for me :) 02:59:28 err, a problem for somebody else then 02:59:35 orthecreedence: not me , for someone else who wants to unite them 02:59:42 I'm happy making my kid games (: 02:59:45 yea 03:00:08 hey theres always newlisp 03:00:40 SrPx: Why stop at lisp? Programming languages are too fragmented. We need to get rid of python, Java, OCaml, Haskell, lisp, scheme, clojure, etc. and have only one programming language. 03:00:45 SrPx: the original idea of lisp seemed to be more minimal than what it is now. it was a playground for ideas. i believe common lisp still is that, it's just a playground which requires a bunch of super-fancy stuff to be available. i'm not really ready to miss out on all the fun i'm having with CL.... and i seriously doubt something better will arive anytime soon (i'm not saying that it's impossible, but pleasing lispers w 03:00:45 a rather fancy construction, i believe). 03:01:11 but seriously think about that, a wikipedia of algorithms in lisp that runs on the browser. it either solves the problems of newcomers, and the problem of branching, because there would be one public, editable page for every specific algorithm, system or whatever 03:01:23 madnificent: Have you looked at Lisp 1.5? 03:01:28 Bike: i have 03:01:30 or Lisp 1, for that matter. 03:01:37 madnificent: hmm yea 03:01:39 "minimal" isn't what I'd call them. 03:01:52 Bike: have you seen the common lisp standard? 03:02:14 of course. 03:02:22 SrPx: Go look at Shen -> www.shenlanguage.org 03:02:26 i wouldn't be surprised if the common lisp standard is 10 times larger than the lisp 1.5 programming manual (which contained example code too!) 03:02:37 well, it still contains that, it's not like the manual has changed or anything 03:03:52 yeah, shen pretty much forbids forks in the license 03:04:09 ThomasH: that sounds awesome but the 404 errors are annoying me 03:04:09 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@76-205-169-48.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:04:10 so there's always only going to be one implementation 03:04:40 SrPx: I've not run into any. 03:05:05 SrPx http://xkcd.com/927/ 03:05:15 The home is broken but hold on im reading 03:05:24 CrazyWoods [~CrazyWood@120.42.89.179] has joined #lisp 03:05:26 kennyd: haha 03:05:30 kennyd: :P 03:05:43 SrPx: Weird, I just clicked it. 03:05:51 same, working for me 03:05:52 kennyd, was wondering how low it would be before that came up :) 03:06:01 SrPx: Okay, got it from a page 03:06:27 ThomasH: library > home 03:06:32 ThomasH: only that one though 03:06:38 SrPx: Yeah, I got it 03:07:22 so pardon but the site doesn't quite explain it as far as I went: 03:07:25 "Shen includes sources, is absolutely free for commercial use and currently runs under CLisp, SBCL, Clojure and Javascript." 03:07:34 what does this statement means? It is interpreted on those ? Or compiles to ? 03:07:50 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:07:54 the implementation is written in common lisp, probably. 03:08:06 what does JS have to do with it though 03:09:21 i have a questionf or you lispers actually...what's the benefit of having built-in prolog in a lisp? 03:09:31 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-130-77.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:47 i kind of know what prolog is where you define relationships between data instead of "running a program" but what does it have to do with lisp? 03:09:47 there's a build in prolog on shen???? 03:09:57 built* 03:09:58 that's what it says on the homepage 03:10:19 orthecreedence: it's convenient, sometimes. Lispworks has one too. 03:10:21 That's a library, I guess? 03:10:24 what's shen ? 03:10:25 sw2wolf, memo from pjb: You cannot use neither #'CL:HANDLER-CASE nor #'CL:UNWIND-PROTECT. CL:HANDLER-CASE is a macro and CL:UNWIND-PROTECT is a special operator. Standard macros can also be implemented as special operators. In either case, you must not use (CL:FUNCTION CL:HANDLER-CASE) or (CL:FUNCTION CL:UNWIND-PROTECT), because they may be not fbound, or they may be fbound to some implementation specific thing that you should not use. <10:55:13> 03:10:31 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-163-47.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 03:10:44 orthecreedence, SrPx: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/KW-W/html/kwprolog-w.htm 03:11:02 thanks, ill check it out 03:11:20 Seriously that SOUNDS awesome even if I have no clue of how prolog works yet 03:11:29 out of curiousity, does CL have a library version of prolog? 03:11:30 segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-99-103-188-102.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:39 like something i could quickload 03:11:58 google mentions a few things. 03:12:54 fine, i can tell when im not wanted 03:13:23 i didn't mean it that way. 03:13:28 orthecreedence: (ql:system-apropos "prolog") 03:13:35 Bike: i'm kidding :) 03:13:37 you might find something :) 03:14:00 p_l: ahh thanks! forgot about that 03:15:11 -!- segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-130-77.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:15:40 SrPx: I think whether it is interpreted or compiled depends on the host platform. I'm not sure that that is important at this stage. 03:16:41 SrPx: Go to the shen standard page. 03:17:00 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:17:07 wubofeng [~quassel@116.236.252.170] has joined #lisp 03:17:18 Hey, so are you actually experienced with Shen? 03:17:22 See: (defmacro logmacro [log N] -> [log N 10]) 03:18:01 So this is converting every list in the form (log N) to (log N 10) ? It is different than CL's macro, then, as it doesn't depend on the first element of the list? 03:18:08 SrPx: No, I don't know why I'm so intrigued by Shen, I've looked at it before and it doesn't quite fulfill what I do. But, Mark Taver is a wicked smart dude and I figure his stuff is worth reading. 03:18:23 I would guess that it's based on scheme's syntax-rules, or something like it. 03:18:28 Sorry, Mark Tarver 03:18:30 I see 03:18:44 Bike: I'll read on those, sound interesting too 03:19:20 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:22 SrPx: http://www.jucs.org/jucs_16_2/embedding_hygiene_compatible_macros may be of interest. 03:21:15 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 03:21:34 Bike: no, I don't think so, Scheme's syntax rules depend on the first symbol too 03:21:39 will read that link brb 03:22:28 No that's not it I guess 03:22:45 -!- segmond__ is now known as segmond 03:22:50 SrPx: I don't understand the problem. even depending on the first symbol it would be easy to put conditionals in the expander. 03:22:52 theBlackDragon: why is it not important? (being compiled/interpreted) 03:23:02 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 03:23:22 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:23 loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:23:39 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:48 Bike: the problem is you can't program some things without a wrap-around-everything list, I guess? Like infix ops 03:24:05 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:24:24 so you have to have an "infix" macro or whatever to do it. no big deal. 03:24:27 Correct me if I'm mistaken but you can't make a CL macro that will make every (N + N) in your source be converted to (+ N N) ? 03:24:49 SrPx: Sure you can 03:24:53 Well that's your opinion, it is a big deal for me 03:24:59 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [] 03:25:00 you can use reader macros. 03:25:24 $(n + n) => (+ n n) in some systems. try looking for "infix" in quicklisp. 03:25:24 Then it's harder than necessary? 03:25:29 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:45 it is nontrivial, but possible, to cause a complete change in the basic syntax of the language. 03:27:17 (load-sugar favs) (print ({a+b^c} 1 2 3)) 03:27:37 yeah, you could do that if you like. 03:27:51 have a reader macro on { that rewrites it as a lambda expression for you. 03:28:02 this would print 9 in my language and one liners were used to define the curly syntax for fn and the operators. That's too much work in CL 03:28:15 But I'm not sure tbh 03:28:23 I just couldn't find a good tutorial on readers, maybe 03:28:26 Could I see this one liner? 03:28:34 sure hold on 03:28:57 Comparing Shen to CL, I just prefer the support for math in CL, seamlessly handling complex values, branch cuts, etc. 03:29:21 it's a shame more languages don't have something resembling LIA conformance. 03:29:22 Bike: ok, I'll cheat a little bit because I noticed it's two lines, but: bracket('{','}','curly'); macro(110,'fn-curly-syntax',function(a){ return (is(a,'curly')) ? as('object',['fn',as('object',args(a)),as('object',a)]) : a; }); 03:29:26 :P 03:29:48 it's verbose because of js's fault, but just a function and a conditional 03:30:02 I can't read what that does. 03:30:30 bracket('{','}','curly') converts every {a b c} into a object of type 'curly' and content ('a 'b 'c) 03:30:42 the macro just converts that into (fn (a b c) (a b c)) 03:31:00 quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has joined #lisp 03:31:04 Does any lisp have a Prolog-like backtracking and unification facility? 03:31:27 It's not very readable to be honest, could be improved if I had macros on js itself 03:31:45 quotemstr: check On Lisp, they write a prolog interpreter in lisp in relatively few loc 03:31:52 madnificent: Thanks. 03:32:06 auganov [~user@83.238.159.245] has joined #lisp 03:32:21 *madnificent* once wrote lolog because he didn't have internet access and needed prolog for some excercises 03:33:00 SrPx: So how does that work with your example, {a+b^c},where there are two operators, and precedence issues? 03:33:13 Bike: let me try, "if source_object = something_with_curly_around then convert it to a (lambda form) else let it as it is" 03:33:29 yes, that's about how you'd write it in CL too. 03:33:34 not sure I see the issue here. 03:33:35 Bike: that's the lambda form. The operators, hold on 03:33:37 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 03:33:45 Bike: is it? Could you do the favor? (: 03:34:08 if it then there's no problem, honestly 03:34:13 it is* 03:34:24 Indeed I'd be using CL if I could make sites with it 03:35:14 (set-macro-character #\{ (lambda (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (let ((list (read-delimited-list #\} stream))) `(lambda (,(first list) ,(third list)) (,(second list) ,(first list) ,(third list))))), and then whatever you do to make #\} a non-constituent character, I don't use reader macros much. 03:37:20 SrPx: You can make websites with CL. You can always find an excuse not to use some language, nothing is perfect. You just have to decide if it is useful on balance. 03:37:43 SrPx: oh, and there's parenscript if you want. 03:37:45 Bike: my operator macro is a little big because it has a for loop to group operators of same precedence and also implements splitters (like (a b ; c d) -> ((a b) (c d))), but that's something like macro(40,'fond-ops',function(a){ each(OPERATORS,function(op){ return fold_ops(obj,op); }; return a; }); 03:37:55 Bike: it doesn't have reader macros I think ): 03:37:56 SrPx: you have a weird definition of "one-liner". 03:38:01 Bike: : P 03:38:16 well it's one line 03:38:24 in exotic styles 03:38:25 (: 03:38:58 SrPx: my point is that something like your reader macro is going to be hard regardless. even if you had some built-in conversion function so that you could write it in "one line" it would still be doing all the work, so there's not much point comparing code size alone, you know? 03:39:01 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 03:39:15 SrPx: and parenscript has reader macros in that it doesn't change the reader, you can use CL reader macros, as far as I know. 03:39:51 Bike: but my understanding of CL's readers macros was that you actually coded how the program would parse symbol by symbol, including, having to split spaces and so on. I'm not sure how it actually works 03:40:04 clhs read-delimited-list 03:40:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm 03:40:05 but if you say, good to know 03:40:16 a hook into cl's list reading facilities for you. 03:40:29 is there a good tutorial on it? I would read it later 03:40:35 oh nice 03:40:37 thanks! 03:40:52 dunno about a tutorial, but the hyperspec page is the standard definition, and has some examples. 03:41:24 oh but then you ARE working on characters and strings 03:41:32 it's different than working with lists 03:41:33 What? 03:41:41 err dunno, just skimmed ? 03:41:44 It reads the stream into a list of symbols/whatever for you 03:42:23 but so, if you wanted to, say, convert every object containing 'X' inside, into 'Y? like ('A 'B 'X) -> 'Y 03:43:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:07 that would go like "if contains obj 'X then return 'Y" 03:43:15 Why the hell would you want to do that? But, you could override the standard list-reading function. 03:43:29 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:43:36 For the same reason you want macros? 03:43:46 Like, power to do what you want? 03:43:53 That's the whole point of Lisp, is not it? 03:44:21 That's like saying you should be able to jump to arbitrary memory positions because "you should have the power". 03:44:30 -!- CrazyWoods [~CrazyWood@120.42.89.179] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:45:17 No way, I won't accept an argument you can't do it because you wouldn't to do it, it's completely the opposite of what lisp preaches 03:50:14 minion: chant 03:50:15 MORE LANGUAGES 03:50:40 hahaha 03:51:24 SrPx I don't even understand what you're trying to do 03:52:11 jackss [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 03:52:46 kennyd: nothing ? 03:53:15 what was the name of that date time library? 03:53:21 local-time. 03:53:27 I think we were debating about wheter it would be useful to have macros that worked on every object of your program, instead of only those objects which started with certain symbol, as it is now 03:54:13 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl_] 03:55:04 thanks 03:56:39 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:57:29 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 03:57:30 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 03:57:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:59:58 -!- mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:00:02 SrPx: cant a combination of macros/symbol macros do that? 04:01:58 not sure what symbol macros are 04:02:37 -!- benny [~user@i577A2743.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:03:13 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:05:24 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:05:59 -!- auganov [~user@83.238.159.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09:24 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:959e:c802:c31f:33a1] has joined #lisp 04:10:27 benny [~user@i577A7868.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:17:16 riverc4c [~grive@pool-71-183-214-254.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:08 teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.69] has joined #lisp 04:19:22 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:46 -!- riverc4c [~grive@pool-71-183-214-254.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:25:16 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 04:28:15 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:37 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:36:37 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:40:52 kind of late to the discussion, but my favorite toy lisp is picolisp 04:41:14 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@29.192.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:41:25 clhs symbol-macrolet 04:41:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm 04:43:23 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:18 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:09 cornihilio: you call picolisp toy, then it is not ANSI-compatible ? 04:45:53 It's not intended to be ansi compatible, iirc it's a small lisp intended for use in low-memory environments and such. doesn't even have a compiler, instead they wrote the interpreter to be fast. if it's the one I'm thinking of. 04:46:43 then just a weak lisp impl as ECL ? 04:47:42 That seems like a non sequitur. 04:48:14 what's sequitur ? 04:48:43 i cannot look it up in my dicttionary 04:49:32 "non sequitur", it's Latin for "it doesn't follow". 04:49:51 oh 04:50:54 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 04:51:47 then my favorite CL impl. is CLISP as it builds a great stumpwm for me :) 04:54:59 what defines a "toy lisp" 04:55:40 At lease CLISP is not a "toy lisp" 04:56:23 Maybe newlisp is a toy lisp ? 05:00:59 auganov [~user@83.238.159.245] has joined #lisp 05:03:39 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176367260.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:04:55 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:06:18 Fun to play with but mostly useless for real work? 05:06:26 Some would say all lisps are toys then. :D 05:06:48 newlisp is a joke lisp 05:07:36 naryl: no, at least clisp is useful for real work 05:07:59 -!- wubofeng [~quassel@116.236.252.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:03 sw2wolf: I'm not among the ones who would say it :P 05:08:11 > all lisps are toys 05:08:34 But it's a popular opinion among trolls. :D 05:08:45 If you can count it as an opinion. 05:09:29 Wait, I know one. 05:15:03 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:36 No english version. Seriously I don't get the point of this one: http://homelisp.ru/ 05:16:12 But it works with COM and can be an IIS-component. :) 05:18:30 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:12 -!- samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:24:19 samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:11 I want to use key parameters, but make some of them optional. I tied (&key a b &optional c d) but that doesn't work 05:29:21 tried* 05:29:25 it's the other way around 05:29:30 and it's a really bad idea 05:31:46 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:48 all the keyword parameters are optional. what are you trying to do? 05:42:19 (defun foo (&key a b c) (list a b c)) 05:42:27 (foo) => (NIL NIL NIL) 05:42:41 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:11 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.20] has joined #lisp 05:44:42 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 auganov` [~user@83.238.159.245] has joined #lisp 05:51:51 -!- auganov [~user@83.238.159.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:54:08 ah, okay. Thank you! 05:56:16 -!- ircmouser [~guest@adsl-68-123-111-161.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: defconcepts ltd] 05:56:17 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:57:20 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 05:57:43 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:02:23 -!- jackss [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 06:04:37 what's a good way to deal with changing object properties in lisp? I know setf slot-value is a pretty non-functional way to do it 06:04:49 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-48-12.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:06:10 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:06:48 non-functional way? who cares about functional ways? 06:06:58 cornihilio: do you want mutation, or do you want functional? 06:07:11 if the slot has an accessor, you can just use (setf (accessor-name ...) ...) 06:07:19 cornihilio: if you're using clos, it is not very likely that you want to follow a functional style. 06:07:32 slot-value is just an inconvenient way, use what Bike said instead 06:07:48 which is basically the same, but easier to use 06:09:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:54 using accessors also has the advantage that one can define :before/:after/:around methods. 06:10:27 well, you can do that with slot-value-using-class too 06:10:47 H4ns: why does using clos imply not wanting to be functional? 06:10:57 stassats: right, but that'd be a big hammer 06:11:25 cornihilio: functional programming generally uses immutable data structures. 06:14:17 is there any reason not to be functional? I mean sbcl has a good gc, right? 06:14:35 cornihilio: no. but then you don't want to use clos. 06:14:44 because functional programming isn't a good way to solve all problems 06:14:53 cornihilio: also, there are better languages for functional programming than common lisp. 06:16:28 PSA: vsedach has updated cliki from hunchentoot 1.2.3 to 1.2.7, which is not entirely unlikely to fix the stability issues that we have seen 06:16:50 minion: cliki 06:16:52 cliki: index: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/index 06:20:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:21:46 -!- Viaken [~david@projecthq.biz] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 06:22:06 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 06:22:08 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:22:23 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 06:23:17 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:24:35 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:20 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:30:51 -!- orthecreedence [~kvirc@c-67-180-62-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:36:31 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-75-233.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:09 orthecreedence [~kvirc@c-67-180-62-214.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-077.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:38:31 Joreji [~thomas@75-077.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 06:38:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-yarwdzknasvyycrm] has joined #lisp 06:38:33 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-yarwdzknasvyycrm] has quit [Changing host] 06:38:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:43:22 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:43:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:08 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:06 naryl: actually quite a lot of CL implementations can be used as IIS component :) 06:45:38 naryl: though yes, homelisp seems... funky 06:48:51 what's :EPHEMERAL in MAKE-THREAD in SBCL? Does that mean that joining is not necessary? 06:50:09 "indicates that this thread is used by SBCL for internal purposes, and specifically that it knows how to to terminate this thread cleanly prior to core file saving without signalling an error in that case." 06:51:24 liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.224.217] has joined #lisp 06:52:23 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.39.72] has quit [Quit: I be back.] 06:52:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-186.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:01:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:03:51 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:04:05 why am I getting an error for this?: https://gist.github.com/4231392 07:04:26 I think I'm using accessors right... or at least similar to where I'm using them elsewhere and not getting an error 07:04:37 i see no error message included with that paste 07:04:40 cornihilio: "setf nconc"? 07:04:56 nconc makes me cringe 07:05:55 err... what should I be using instead of nconc? 07:06:05 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:19 to do what? 07:06:29 cornihilio: append 07:06:29 to merge two lists together 07:06:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:35 rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-004-006.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:36 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-004-006.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:06:36 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 07:06:45 but you're not merging lists, you're adding an element 07:06:51 any reason to add to the end? 07:06:54 but what's the point of using append if I'm using setf on one of the lists I'm appending to? 07:07:00 adding to the beginning is better 07:07:02 and easier 07:07:29 cornihilio: nconc mutates the list - it is best to avoid mutation on lists, even if you're not following a pure functional style 07:07:29 err so instead of (nconc a b) I should be using (append a b)? 07:07:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:08:11 cornihilio: i'd not say "should", but if you need to append two lists, then use append. 07:08:19 cornihilio: nconc you should avoid in general. 07:08:31 looks like you only passed one argument to setf 07:08:32 i see no indication that the order is important, so, (push element list) 07:08:39 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:08:46 cornihilio: i mean, your code is wrong, setf works like (setf place value) 07:09:10 stassats: thanks. nothing seen in SBCL manual nor in DESCRIBE. 07:09:16 here's a better gist: https://gist.github.com/4231411 07:09:23 flip214: you need detective skills! 07:09:48 err... forgot about push. Thanks! 07:09:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-106-90.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:03 cornihilio: append appends lists 07:10:15 ATOMIC-INCF says that place must be a defstruct accessor. So I can't use a DEFCLASS slot, not even via (slot-value) etc.? 07:10:31 flip214: no 07:10:43 I think sbcl has cas for standard-instance-access, doesn't it? 07:16:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-186.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:37 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Quit: ] 07:18:38 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-48-12.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:19:03 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:09 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 07:20:54 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.199] has joined #lisp 07:21:12 if I'm using accessors right I shouldn't have to use with-slots, right? 07:21:27 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 07:23:11 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fab5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:00 you never have to use with-slots 07:25:06 cornihilio: there is WITH-ACCESSORS 07:29:02 stassats: but I could define a structure with a single slot, put that into the class' slot, and use ATOMIC-INCF there .... bah 07:29:53 it's going to be atomic only for the structure slot 07:30:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-186.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:41 so I have to use with-accessors or with-slots to access those slots, right? 07:31:49 no! 07:32:05 you never have to use with-accessors or with-slots to access slots 07:32:16 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:32:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:32:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:32:20 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:32:38 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:39 you can even imagine that they don't exist, if that makes it easier for you 07:33:34 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-48-12.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 quanganhct [0ea104d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.161.4.210] has joined #lisp 07:37:48 hi 07:37:56 anyone there ? 07:38:02 nobody 07:38:09 lol 07:38:18 I have some question regarding lisp 07:38:30 is that ok ? 07:38:33 that's what this channel is for 07:38:34 plz 07:38:41 quanganhct: get on with it. 07:38:43 for questions about Common Lisp 07:38:47 and for answers as well 07:38:57 i read some faq that introduce to me this function 07:39:01 number-sequence 07:39:15 when type in SLIME 07:39:19 stassats: thank you, I don't know why that was so hard for me to get. in pcl I remember seeing them a lot in the clos chapter; I guess I didn't understand. 07:39:29 quanganhct: that's not common lisp 07:39:49 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:39:50 \oh 07:39:50 oh, apparently it's elisp. 07:39:57 minion: tell cornihilio about keene 07:39:58 keene: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/keene 07:40:01 narf 07:40:16 cornihilio: with-slots/accesors are just shortcuts to slot-value and accesors 07:40:21 nothing special 07:40:26 cornihilio: http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-Common-Lisp-Programmers/dp/0201175894 07:40:45 is there any function in LISP that allow me to build a list from 1 to n ? 07:40:55 alexandria:iota 07:40:56 (loop for i from 1 to n collect i) 07:41:07 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:41:20 quanganhct: it's not LISP, it's Lisp 07:41:23 and Common, at that 07:41:29 okay 07:42:14 what i do not understand, is that in Slime, when I hit TAB to display functions available 07:42:22 number-sequence is on the list 07:42:26 but i cannot use it 07:42:33 that's not a list of functions, it's a list of symbols. 07:42:41 for LOOP and ITER, is there a way to re-start collecting? (LOOP for i upto 100 collect i into list do (when (= i 20) (print list) (setf list nil))) might not work, because the end is tracked with another variable, right? 07:42:43 number-sequence is there because you interned it in your attempt to use it. 07:43:00 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:05 ok thanks 07:44:16 guess i must write my own function to use then 07:45:03 flip214: it just won't work 07:45:10 not "might not work" 07:45:42 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:45:42 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:59 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:29 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 07:47:02 uh is there something like :t from ghci in the repl? I want to find out what arguments a function accepts/what it returns 07:47:25 b 07:47:38 describe might tell you 07:48:16 it's probably not going to be as thorough as haskell's inference, though, of course 07:49:42 https://gist.github.com/4231558 07:50:09 -!- auganov` [~user@83.238.159.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:50:14 I'm using comparison function that accepts two arguments but I'm getting told :test won't work with it (I think). 07:50:16 i told you to look at make-hash-table's docs before, didn't I? You can't use arbitrary functions 07:50:33 oh sorry about that. I'll go look at that then. 07:51:04 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:52:11 -!- nowhere_man_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-60-131.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:52:16 basically, the way hash tables work, you're going to need a hash function, and you can't just come up with that from a comparison... 07:53:14 luckily, you shouldn't actually need a new hash function, looking at the code. just hash on (url link) instead of link. 07:54:41 Bike: thank you for pointing that out. 07:57:11 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:57:43 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:58:00 what does it mean when quickloading my project works, but c-c c-k fails to compile? 07:58:33 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 07:58:37 cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:48 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:00:22 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:00:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:59 stassats: so there's nothing in LOOP or ITER to account for such use cases? I have to resort to (loop with list = nil ... (push i list) ... (return (nreverse list))) etc.? 08:01:11 cfy` [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 08:01:15 i don't use iter 08:02:17 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:07:39 stassats: what do you use instead of loop? 08:07:56 your question is a non sequitur 08:08:21 err... sorry about that 08:09:44 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:11:33 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:16:08 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:29 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:23 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:17:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:17:23 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:19:53 k0001 [~k0001@host114.200-117-38.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:20:58 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:21:01 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:22:27 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:49 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:23:29 Kinros [~Administr@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:41 How was Symbolics, Inc. an influential startup? 08:24:17 why are you asking #lisp that? 08:24:33 stassats: why not? 08:25:00 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 08:25:08 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:08 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:25:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:34 because #lisp is not about startups 08:25:41 or about Symbolics 08:25:52 Kinros: symbolics produced lisp machines and genera, both very sophisticated systems for the time. 08:26:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:26:57 Kinros: but "influential"? well, that is debatable. there still are people who bemoan the demise of symbolics, but there are also people who still bemoan the demise of multics. or amiga os. 08:27:43 imagine, an Open Genera on iphones! 08:27:53 \o/ 08:30:25 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-028-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:41 -!- theos is now known as Guest8525 08:33:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:34:12 -!- quanganhct [0ea104d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.161.4.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:35:23 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:35:41 stassats: given that last OpenGenera alphas I had ever seen ran on OSX... :P 08:35:58 -!- Guest8525 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:37:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-077.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 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joined #lisp 12:51:25 floddan [~flodin@nl114-109-186.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 12:51:37 -!- sw2wolf [~sw2wolf@110.184.89.220] has left #lisp 12:52:14 no, xs means "something which will evaluate to a list" 12:53:07 but xs will be evaluated before being passed to cons ? 12:53:37 cons is a function, like all functions, all the arguments are evaluated before calling it 12:54:21 Amoz: It's already solved a few times e.g. in OPTIMA 12:54:27 minion: optima? 12:54:27 optima: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/optima 12:55:43 naryl, this is related to school, so I assume no external libraries are allowed. 12:56:33 Amoz: but what exactly do you have problems with? 12:56:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:57:04 What to begin with? :D 12:57:10 Amoz: if it is "i don't understand anything", then you should probably talk to your ta or read the script or a book on lisp. otherwise, maybe you can ask a specific question? 12:59:41 -!- Kinros [~Administr@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:00:42 H4ns, that's true, I'm thinking of something where I can try binding an S-exp to a "pattern", and see if it succeeds, if not, it should try binding to the next pattern. Does that make sense? 13:01:11 Amoz: it makes sense, but common lisp does not have generic pattern matching as language facility. 13:01:22 Amoz: you will need to write the pattern matching code yourself. 13:01:42 H4ns, I think that's the point yes 13:02:10 minion: paip 13:02:11 paip: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/paip 13:02:16 I have a very simple example of how a function call could be made 13:03:17 H4ns, also the code we have so far. http://pastebin.com/aDk1rHLd 13:03:53 stassats: thanks, I think my mistake was believing that a value is evaluated to what it's bound and then again evaluated 13:04:03 How can I establish a restart not associated with a condition? I was hoping RESTART-BIND would be it, but (find-restart 'some-restart ) finds those anyway. 13:04:39 Amoz: maybe you want to read up on pattern matching in norvig's book: http://norvig.com/paip.html 13:05:19 Amoz: On macros. 13:05:46 Because what you have now can trivially be rewritten as a function. 13:05:54 Which hints that you don't really understand macros. 13:07:05 Thra11 [~thrall@29.192.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:28 luis: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_r.htm 13:07:56 luis: > When condition is non-nil, only those restarts are considered that are either explicitly associated with that condition, or not associated with any condition 13:09:45 Hi! Anybody working with the POSTMODERN library? I struggle with an "IN"-Clause, I have no idea how to write it correctly.... Something like (sql (:in 1 '(2 3 4))) is not working. 13:10:05 krrrcks: (:in 'foo (:set 1 2 3)) 13:10:14 gnnn... that simple= 13:10:32 thanks a lot! 13:10:53 works. \o/ 13:13:54 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:14:10 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:21 postmodern returns text as (AND (VECTOR CHARACTER 64) (NOT SIMPLE-ARRAY)), I've used babel in the past to get some strings for that, is there another way? can postmodern deal itself with the client encoding? 13:14:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:15:38 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:31 dim: i'm not sure if i understand correctly. are you saying that pomo does not return text properly decoded according to the external format established for the database? 13:17:31 I'm not sure because I'm relaying for a friend and don't have access to his code nor REPL, maybe that typeof expression means string even 13:18:12 it is a string, yes. 13:18:15 I told him to (format nil "~a" result) to see for himself and apparently it's a string 13:19:07 sorry I'm not doing any CL these days, so it's uneasy to remember the details 13:19:20 it'll get easier when I'm back into using it 13:19:36 (subtypep '(AND (VECTOR CHARACTER 129) (NOT SIMPLE-ARRAY)) 'string) => T 13:19:53 have your friend come here for support. 13:19:58 right. 13:21:00 here (vector character 129) means the vector contains 129 characters and says nothing about the size in bytes of any of those characters, right? 13:21:06 jd__ [~jd@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 13:21:11 (now that's me being curious) 13:21:21 there are no "bytes" in characters 13:21:32 hi there! 13:21:40 ikki [~ikki@189.139.11.170] has joined #lisp 13:21:53 (vector character 129) means a vector of 129 characters. it does not talk about the representation of characters. 13:22:03 -!- francogrex [~user@109.129.154.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:23:25 please welcome jd__ who will now be asking questions for himself :) 13:23:33 jd__: hello! 13:23:39 :-) 13:24:42 where are the questions?! 13:24:45 H4ns: anyway to discover from the REPL that e.g. CCL implements unicode using 4 bytes characters? 13:24:56 s/anyway/any way/ 13:25:41 dim: the number of bytes no, but there is cl:char-code-limit 13:26:15 dim: of course, that does not tell you anything about the representation of characters either. it just tells you how large char-code can ever get 13:27:01 CL-USER> (integer-length cl:char-code-limit) --> 21 13:27:10 I don't think I can make conclusions from that, right? 13:27:16 dim: that is an educated guess. but no guarantee 13:27:38 dim: why are you interested in the internal representation of characters anyway? 13:28:06 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 13:28:20 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:28:47 I needed to in some code I had to write where I wanted to slurp 32 millions of entries in memory, and used (babel:octets-to-string key :encoding :ascii) to limit the footprint (I knew I only had ascii in that very case) 13:29:47 ccl doesn't use less space for ascii 13:29:58 sbcl does 13:30:17 Raptum [~Raptum@168.8.27.4] has joined #lisp 13:32:14 dim: the bottom line is: you cannot control your memory footprint in a portable fashion. 13:32:27 dim: what works on one implementation may not work on another. 13:32:43 minion: advice on portable? 13:32:44 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 13:32:48 there you go 13:32:57 \o/ 13:33:00 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:35:30 hehe 13:36:02 i uses the "it just needs to be fast on your system" 13:36:05 version 13:36:08 course I was keeping babel octets in the hash table, not ccl strings 13:37:38 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.196] has joined #lisp 13:38:24 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:42:36 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:44:02 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 13:48:43 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:28 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:59:43 QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:04 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:04:15 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:10:10 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:20 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:14:46 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:16:15 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-gemmqdlbnabqmkse] has joined #lisp 14:17:13 Joreji [~thomas@70-132.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:16 bitonic [~user@dyn1203-177.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:20:12 -!- Raptum [~Raptum@168.8.27.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:20:30 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:07 mindcruzer [~mindcruze@216.185.74.162] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 I see (class-slot-value ) analogous to (slot-value )  wdyt? 14:23:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:23:53 -!- sytse [sytse@5.9.233.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:24:14 what does that do? 14:26:33 naryl: thanks, that clears it up. 14:27:17 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:27:39 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:51 naryl: also, now I see that restart-case only associates restarts with conditions if the form's first symbol is SIGNAL, ERROR, etc. 14:27:52 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 statsats - by example: (format t "Currently ~D foo are active." (hash-table-count (class-slot-value (find-class 'foo) 'table-of-instances))) ; to be clear I desire this function; but I don't think it's trivial to write. 14:29:12 "I see" -> "I seek" 14:29:22 luis: Any plans for CFFI release? 14:30:03 LiamH: slowly going through open issues... 14:30:06 classes are instances too, so you can just use slot-value 14:30:22 and use MOP to add slots to classes 14:30:49 luis: I noticed a lot of email traffic, looks like you're closing a lot of issues. 14:31:21 Yeah, still 2 or 3 to go. 14:32:01 This latest cffi-grovel patch seems to require me learning how ASDF components work. :) 14:32:39 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:48 -!- francisl_ is now known as francisl 14:34:09 -!- floddan [~flodin@nl114-109-186.student.uu.se] has left #lisp 14:34:16 stassats:  naive possibly, but i was hoping to write (declass foo () (  (table-of-instances :allocation :class :initform (make-hash-ta) ...)  ) ) 14:34:18 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:34:53 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:06 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-obpmobdwgjmllftg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:14 you would need MOP to access class allocated slots without instantiating new objects anyhow 14:35:35 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:35:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:36:13 stassats: it's not obvious the MOP is sufficient, at least to me 14:36:54 i don't understand that remark 14:37:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:38:35 bhyde: (setf (slot-value (closer-mop:class-prototype (find-class 'foo)) 'table-of-instances) ...) 14:38:57 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:22 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:40:31 *bhyde* reading about class-prototype... 14:41:58 bhyde: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134103 14:42:25 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:16 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:52 stassats: nice, i'd thought about doing it that way and then become enamored of the idea that I ought to be able to get at the class slots without using an instance 14:44:19 that's what i just pasted, it's not using an instance 14:45:00 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:46:46 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 stassats: no. you example illustrates how the achieve the desired functionality with out using :allocation :class for the slot in question. naryl's example shows how to do it using :allocation :class - assuming the spec says that the class-slot's value is synonymous with the prototype 14:47:52 class-prototype is an instance of the class 14:48:07 i no way of accessing class-allocated slots without using instances 14:48:19 without allocating new ones, yes, that can be done 14:48:19 bhyde: have you considered having the table in a special variable (or wherever), and just doing the bookkeeping in an :after method on allocate-instance (or wherever you need that) 14:48:20 ? 14:48:23 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:48:26 -!- likorat [~remi@76-164.107-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:48:31 jdz: that's slow! 14:49:33 obviously there are many ways to associate additional information with the class. i'm kind of over committed to the idea I ought to be able to get to the slots that are :allocation :class without ever creating an instance - silly me 14:50:34 you could instead use the class's plist, if your implementation has plists on classes 14:50:51 auganov` [~user@81.219.91.76] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 well, class name may also work 14:50:59 and class-allocated slots are specific to the class they are defined in 14:51:31 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 stassats: How does :allocation :class really work? Why can't slots be accessed without an instance? 14:52:58 because they are accessed like slots? 14:53:03 like instance slots, that is 14:53:36 bhyde: also, what exactly are you trying to count? 14:53:52 bhyde: the number of instances ever created? 14:54:56 (there probably is a highly unportable way of accessing class slots) 14:55:11 But are there inherent problems with accessing a class-allocated slot without an instance or is it just standard lacking an API for it? 14:55:36 jdz: for decades i've maintained the set of instances, or other info about the set, in a parallel data structure. but yesterday I got to thinking, Damn! why can't I use slots :allocation class for this? 14:56:12 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 14:56:44 naryl: yes I think it just that there is a missing API; including that it's not pinned down when those slot values are created 14:56:59 on sbcl: (cdr (sb-mop:slot-definition-location (car (sb-mop:class-slots (find-class class))))) 14:57:07 there you go, a highly unportable way 14:57:17 -!- skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit: skanev] 14:57:17 -!- rullie [~rullie@206.248.167.246] has left #lisp 14:57:32 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:57:40 oh, that's less evil than the one that I was going to suggest 14:57:40 stassats: in lisp works they seem to be in a plist inside the class object 14:58:14 *bhyde* must drive to the office 14:58:14 (cdr (assoc slot-name (sb-pcl::class-slot-cells class))) 14:58:16 -!- sweet_kid [askari@irc.upasna.in] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 14:58:19 skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 14:58:23 but the hideous thing that all this misses is unbound slots 14:59:14 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:46 pareidol2a [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:59:58 seems like you all have settled into the conclusion I reached. I'll return to my usual tricks - not dissimilar to stassats paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/134103 15:00:06 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 15:00:39 -!- pareidol1a [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:26 well, there's nothing wrong with using class prototypes, although it's less cool then using metaclasses 15:01:32 than 15:02:38 myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:53 QuickSilver_ [~ait@204.110.112.43] has joined #lisp 15:03:13 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yitgxszbnbsnlzjy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:03:36 the problem with metaclasses is that they don't compose well, so if there is an alternative that is just "less cool", it should be used to keep the way free for cases where metaclasses are really beneficial. 15:04:14 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 15:04:36 sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has joined #lisp 15:05:22 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:05:29 H4ns: you can compose them by creating a new metaclass inheriting from two metaclasses, provided that they won't do anything conflicting 15:05:51 and the metaclass i just pasted doesn't do anything which conflict with some other class 15:06:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:10:53 linse_ [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:56 PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has joined #lisp 15:13:46 that's true up to a point 15:14:30 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:32 In quicklisp, what's the "best" system for database access? 15:14:40 postmodern 15:14:52 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:15:22 LispWorks on Windows or SBCL -> Oracle 15:16:11 Krystof: it just becomes progressively more involved 15:16:18 stassats: were you out for a few days? 15:16:28 -!- Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:30 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:40 well, I can compose stassats-metaclass and xach-metaclass, like (defclass csr-class (stassats-metaclass xach-metaclass) ...) 15:16:41 felideon: i don't understand the question 15:16:43 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:16:56 stassats: absent from #lisp 15:17:02 H4ns can compose them too: (defclass h4ns-metaclass (xach-metaclass stassats-metaclass) ..) 15:17:11 oh no, now we can't compose h4ns-metaclass and csr-class 15:17:37 right. i'm not saying that metaclasses cannot be composed. it is just not as straightforward as one would want it to be. 15:17:39 felideon: why are you asking? 15:17:54 metaclasses are too on-topic 15:19:15 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:26 Krystof: hm, why can't we? 15:19:32 Raptum [~Raptum@168.8.27.4] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 because the superclasses are ordered 15:19:43 and the ordering is incompatible 15:19:58 stassats: not really sure! it may have just been a wrong impression. 15:20:21 Krystof: ah, ordering 15:20:36 (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ()) (defclass c (a b) ()) (defclass d (b a) ()) (defclass e (c d) ()) ; => boom 15:20:37 Krystof: but you can say that about any classes, not just metaclasses 15:20:49 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:21:30 -!- linse_ [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:22:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-175-22.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:36 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 15:24:11 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit 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[~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 16:40:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7572b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:41:50 mritz [~textual@97.65.251.170] has joined #lisp 16:42:15 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.36.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:44:49 -!- Raptum [~Raptum@168.8.27.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@70-132.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:47:55 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 16:48:38 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:43 I love it when someone tries to improve code and introduces a bug because they didn't fully understand it. LTK made unique TK variable names by (format nil "w~A" (get-counter)) someone decided to make the variable names shorter by base-52 encoding the counter, but that means that ltk will eventually overwrite every global symbol that starts with "w" 16:49:48 when was the last time when somebody introduced a bug while fully understanding it? 16:49:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.11.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:50:02 stassats: typos 16:50:26 brandonz [~brandon@adsl-75-63-19-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:33 tiglog [~topeak@114.245.104.123] has joined #lisp 16:50:37 that's amateur! 16:52:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:59:55 -!- auganov` [~user@77-254-121-162.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:58 pareidol1a [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:01:41 kiuma 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has joined #lisp 18:16:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:41 Joreji [~thomas@75-077.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:33 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 18:29:06 k0001 [~k0001@186.153.76.102] has joined #lisp 18:29:18 lufu [~user@5.254.134.167] has joined #lisp 18:30:00 jjkola_work_ [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 18:31:53 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:32:57 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32:57 -!- jjkola_work_ is now known as jjkola_work 18:34:25 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:38:46 Is the alternative way of searching for ASDs still valid today: http://www.cliki.net/asdf 18:41:44 ubii_ [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 18:42:38 skanev [~aquarius@79.138.223.179.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-077.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:43:12 Qworkescence: what do you want to do? 18:43:13 Joreji [~thomas@75-077.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:54 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:05 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:33 pavelpenev, I want to have a directory of ASD projects, and I want to add new projects without maintaining some master list of projects. More generally, I want to have a "site-wide" installation of lisp. So many computers would access the same set of ASD-compatible projects. 18:45:56 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:46:19 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:48:13 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:48:22 Qworkescence: for local projects, you just put them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects and quicklisp will find them, if you want to make your own quicklisp dist(other than the official one) https://github.com/orivej/quickdist recently became available. Is this what you had in mind? 18:49:56 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7572b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 18:52:15 pavelpenev, I'm not entirely sure. I don't want to rely on any internet connection, since this would be a purely "internal" thing. 18:56:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:15 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-219.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:27 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:37 Qworkescence: from what I gather, quickdist indexes the projects in some folder, and then it makes them available through http to every quicklisp client that has that dist installed, and can reach it, so I don't see why this can't work in a lan. 19:01:19 just don't let the outside connect to the port you are using, or whatever people with more sysadmin knowledge than me say :) 19:01:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:02:56 alternatively, you can use something like dropbox to sync your ~/quicklisp/local-projects between your computers. 19:03:28 dropbox specifically depends on an internet connection though 19:03:58 I just use git :) 19:04:42 yes, but I don't know if I can tell 1k people to clone a repository to this obscure directory they don't have called ~/quicklisp/local-projects 19:06:01 1k people, now you have me interested. What are you trying to do? 19:07:06 pavelpenev, didn't I already say? :) 19:07:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:46 Qworkescence: I meant in general, are you trying to distribute an app? 19:08:17 distribute source code which could be automatically built by some other tool i don't know about, and which can be loaded and used 19:09:42 Qworkescence: that sounds about right for quickdist I think 19:10:19 kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:28 SrPx: If you have money, perhaps you could finance a new standardization process, to make a Common Common Lisp? <03:55:31> Bike: tbh if people at Clojure, Scheme and Lisp united, today.. 19:11:45 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 pjb: I don't o.o 19:14:08 but it's not money i guess 19:14:11 it's the idea 19:14:19 seriously, a wikipedia of code might work 19:14:28 the best way to unite all the lisps is to deny the existence of any lisps other than common lisp, scheme and clojure are not lisps, there fore lisp isn't fragmented. DONE! 19:14:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:15:05 that won't quite work when your code is incompatible, you are doing the same things different ways and so on 19:15:10 SrPx: haha 19:15:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:19 SrPx: how long have you been doing lisp? 19:15:25 why? 19:15:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:15:42 SrPx: because you obviously don't know much about the community yet :D 19:15:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:16:20 then explain, I never used Lisp productively 19:16:44 because I do web, so I couldn't 19:16:48 <_tca> the horse, it's already been beaten 19:17:19 SrPx: I like the way you know how to fix Lisp, but you have no idea what it is and have never really used it. 19:17:30 SrPx: tell me more about how to make Lisp better! I'm all ears. 19:17:39 it's the idea! 19:17:42 I never said that, you people are weird 19:17:48 heh. 19:17:51 SrPx: q.e.d. 19:18:03 *SrPx* is scared 19:18:04 *jasom* just wanst a version of defconstant that works when things are equal (but maybe not the same) 19:18:06 whatever guys 19:18:17 SrPx: when every body in a community is weird to you, you are the weird one :) 19:18:21 jasom: just use defparameter and be done with it. 19:18:28 sur 19:18:39 now I've got work to do, you called me here 19:18:50 dafuq seriously 19:18:51 see you 19:18:56 SrPx: it's funny because I find web-related stuff to be one of the places where Lisp shines. 19:19:08 so it is 19:19:18 sorry for not being able myself to see it 19:19:40 glad you lightened me 19:19:46 next time i'll use it, then 19:20:38 SrPx: this channel is pretty much for people who want to use and learn CL, so, do use it and learn it :) 19:21:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:21:21 sure man I was working and someone called me 19:21:23 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 19:21:31 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fab5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:21:34 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:08 -!- skanev [~aquarius@79.138.223.179.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: skanev] 19:26:01 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:03 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fab5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:22 different day, same shit 19:29:37 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 19:31:33 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:37 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:32:54 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:33:07 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.80] has joined #lisp 19:33:52 Kvaks [~kvaks@84.159.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:37:54 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:39:50 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 19:40:00 kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:00 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:01 Forty-3 [~seana11@outbound.terrawi.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:21 SrPx: But lisp code is not incompatible with Common Lisp! That was the point of designing Common Lisp: to make it a COMMON lisp! So you can run any lisp program on a Common Lisp implementation. For example, a 40 years old LISP 1.5 program: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 19:41:47 pjb: I know, thank you 19:41:53 I didn't said otherwise 19:41:57 CL is great 19:41:58 really great 19:42:09 SrPx: You should be able to run even ugly Clojure programs (using [] and other strange syntax) in a CL implementation, providing a few reader macros, a few macros, and a few library functions. 19:42:32 I know, that part of CL specifially is increadible 19:42:48 the problems with CL are problems that most of you guys on this channel don't hae 19:42:49 have.* 19:42:54 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:43:31 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:38 SrPx: as long as a programming language is Turing Complete, you can use it to write any program you need to write. So just use CL to write your programs! No buts, no ifs, just do it. 19:45:09 What are you talking about u.u 19:45:46 Not sure if you are addressing that to me or talking about what is a great thing to say about cl 19:45:59 there are a couple of problems with CL. But they require people going ahead and doing something. 19:46:04 how about scheme programs! 19:46:22 foom: usually, they don't run on CL 19:46:23 pjb: That would be a great argument if programmers were just pattern appliers 19:46:27 Unfortunately, they're humans. 19:46:30 SrPx: then explain, I never used Lisp productively / because I do web, so I couldn't 19:46:30 19:46:42 So Turing Completeness is not a sufficient and necessary feature of a language 19:47:02 jrajav: I've been writing all my programs , scripts, web sites, etc in Common Lisp since 2000. 19:47:06 And scheme even has infix syntax now. 19:47:12 pjb: that was about someone's comment about the community not the lang 19:47:16 Right. But its effectiveness is not a function of that one attribute 19:47:19 Is what I'm saying 19:47:22 pjb: but yea 19:47:41 SrPx: the problem with the lisp community is the people who comment about the community instead of writing lisp programs! 19:47:57 <_tca> imagine how many millions would switch to CL if pjb's libraries descended down from agpl to a place where the regular folk live 19:48:04 pjb, +1 19:48:07 :-) 19:48:08 you know, what i dislike about the community argument is that every one who says that is blaming someone else. It's just bullshit. 19:48:13 pjb: yes should be 19:48:38 prxq: maybe they're not blaming anyone, just accepting the state of things without trying to improve them. 19:48:39 _tca: I'm just waiting for a commercial offer ;-) 19:49:06 foom: doesn't sound much like accepting anything. More like, er, bitching. 19:49:21 _tca: otherwise, I'm wondering. I don't have the impression there's more proprietary lisp code written than public open source lisp code. 19:49:31 k0001_ [~k0001@host43.186-109-111.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 prxq: Bitching about how the current state isn't awesome enough. 19:49:34 tbh some of you just seem unhappy with a problem to the point of denying it's existence 19:49:43 So what would be the point of a MIT or BSD license for lisp code, if most lispers write public code anyways? 19:50:05 you really have no idea see 19:50:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:23 Lisp's unpopularity has nothing to do with any of this 19:50:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:41 -!- ubii_ [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 19:50:42 I think everyone knows lisp's popularity has nothing to do with pjb's libraries. 19:50:54 Forty-Two [~seana11@outbound.terrawi.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:54 or their licenses. 19:50:55 SrPx: we're talking now about the popularity of my libraries, not of lisp. 19:51:02 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@outbound.terrawi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:51:08 oh my bad 19:51:13 -!- Forty-Two is now known as Forty-Elf 19:51:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:52:51 -!- k0001 [~k0001@186.153.76.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:53:36 it is my very humble opinion that the value of software popularity is greatly overrated. 19:53:45 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@129.192-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:53:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@129.192-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 19:53:45 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:54:05 If I didn't hold that opinion, I would be pretty unhappy with lisp, I guess :) 19:54:56 My observation is that the greatest "problem" of lisp is its relentless use of parenthesis. And that's one of those things were obviously no negotiation is possible. 19:55:18 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55:23 people look at the code and go "eew" 19:56:02 prxq: i think it is the lack of other constructs, not the use of paranthesis 19:56:04 prxq: the problem with parenthesis is their abuse in other languages trains people to go "eew" when they see a lot of them. 19:56:07 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:56:11 kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:32 prxq: people don't go eew on the parenthesis, they don't see their curly braces, their line ends and their commas. they probably blame it on the parens because it's the closest related that they see. 19:56:35 prxq, I find it goes both ways. Spend enough time looking at lisp and you look at other languages and go, "eww, why all the different bits of random disjointed syntax" 19:56:46 *pavelpenev* goes off to find the apropriate Naggum post to back up my claim :) 19:57:18 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:58:42 -!- Guest32625 [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:58:42 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:59:30 just implement SRFI 105 for CL, problem solved! 19:59:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:41 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:50 lizzin [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:14 -!- lizzin is now known as Guest23830 20:03:36 *pavelpenev* found it: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3237215494375390@naggum.no.html 20:05:35 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:35 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fab5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:35 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:35 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.199] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- csaba [~csaba@catv-80-98-157-212.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.140] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- Fiora [~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:36 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:05:46 is there another term for the plural of "newbie" in common use...? 20:05:50 we should make a reader macro which accepts both ( and { to mean exactly the same. (and similar for } ). simply to please newcomers. then hit them with a stick until they stop using { 20:06:08 Bike: newbies? noobs n00bs 20:06:43 n00bzors 20:06:49 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.17] has quit [Read error: No buffer space available] 20:07:01 ehu [~ehu@31.137.210.243] has joined #lisp 20:07:10 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.17] has joined #lisp 20:07:14 madnificent: this is lisp; you can make { automatically hit them with a stick 20:07:16 ;) 20:07:40 lol, in n00b-mode we don't signal warnings. if *noob-mode* is nil, we trigger a warning. the reader can do that! 20:07:43 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 madnificent: naggum's footnote says «[Newbies] really should be the collective form for "newbie".» Except that I just realized he meant "school of newbies". 20:08:12 ubii_ [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 20:08:13 madnificent: actual line from the Erlang codebase at work: []}}]}]}]). 20:08:18 pardon the NDA violation 20:08:24 madnificent: i read a paper the other day about using compiler macros to warn on, say, any use of nconc, heh 20:08:29 hee hee 20:08:33 sykopomp: may i hit you with a stick too? 20:08:42 madnificent: I'm not making this shit up 20:08:45 I just copy-pasted that. 20:08:47 (not that doing so was technically conforming) 20:08:53 sykopomp: doesn't make it better!!! 20:08:53 hit Joe Armstrong 20:08:53 sykopomp, that's inside info......... 20:09:09 sykopomp: is that 'bad' code, or 'good' code in Erlang? 20:09:14 Qworkescence: please don't steal our secrets 20:09:54 madnificent: it's part of a definition for a few things. Imagine a semi-nested alist. 20:10:16 usually when you see }], that means you're dealing with an alist :) 20:10:22 just sayin'. I like my ) 20:10:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:11:02 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fab5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.199] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 csaba [~csaba@catv-80-98-157-212.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 Fiora [~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.140] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:11:02 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:11:11 what's the pjb quote about #' and FUNCTION 20:11:13 sykopomp: have you looked at elixir yet? I'm experimenting with it and it seems really pretty nice 20:11:19 sykopomp: cool 20:11:26 -!- elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:11:32 sykopomp: i couldn't say that it's bad either, i probably have code which ends in )))))) too 20:11:39 Qworkescence: (let (#'1 '2) (+ function quote)) => 3 20:11:48 antifuchs: I've looked at it. 20:11:52 felideon, not that :) 20:12:03 pavelpenev: good post, i guess. it's related, but i think those programmers miss their grouping statements too. 20:12:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:12:11 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp 20:12:25 Qworkescence: *shrug* 20:12:32 pjb, ey, what's your quote about your preference to use FUNCTION over #' ? 20:12:38 antifuchs: My impression is that it would be somewhat nicer to code than raw Erlang, but Erlang's syntax doesn't bother me that much. 20:12:42 felideon: (+ . #'quote) 20:13:02 I guess syntaxes are mostly equivalent to me if I can't do heavy macrology and use paredit on them. 20:13:03 sykopomp: I'm bothered more by the 1-based indexes, and ex seems to fix that (: 20:13:15 syntaxes really aren't a big problem, agreed (: 20:13:35 antifuchs: 1-based indexes were a problem for about 5 minutes. 20:13:49 if you say so (: 20:13:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:18 antifuchs: how often do you access things by index? 20:14:20 anyway, I'm more pleased by ex now than by erlang previously. would recommend everyone check it out (: 20:14:25 Bike: heh 20:14:26 sykopomp: not much lately (: 20:14:32 sykopomp: ok, and it has macros and quote (: 20:14:40 I can think of one case where I do it: element(1, X), and that's very rare, bad code. 20:14:55 antifuchs: if I start liking elixir, I'll get depressed because I'm not allowed to use it. 20:15:04 <_tca> what about joxa, has anyone tried that 20:15:05 :( 20:16:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:45 Qworkescence: but basically, writing (list (function f) (quote x)) instead of (list #'f 'x) is simplier: you don't need to use the reader macro mechanism for #' and ', but instead are just using a homogeneous syntax to enter a homogeneous data structure. And indeed, for newbies, it let them avoid a few problems. 20:17:05 -!- csaba [~csaba@catv-80-98-157-212.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 20:17:13 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 20:17:13 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 20:17:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:17:38 pjb, no, the quote about you preferring round X Y Z over sharp pointy P Q 20:19:02 Well, just look at the typography of (list (function f) (quote x)) vs. (list #'f 'x) Only nice rounded chubby parentheses in the former, compared to those poking spikes of the sharp and apostrophe characters in the later. 20:19:15 :)))) 20:19:25 is that quote under GPL? 20:19:35 GDL perhaps? 20:19:40 AGPL! 20:19:42 :) 20:20:41 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:22:05 If there were a pair of clouds on the side instead of just  in unicode, we could substitutes parentheses by clouds in lisp text :-) 20:22:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:22:12 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:18 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:49 kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d02819e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 gridaphobe [~user@169.228.188.47] has joined #lisp 20:25:37 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:27:26 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 20:27:44 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 20:29:24 pavelpenev, My other worry with using quicklisp and making my own distribution is that now everyone has to worry about updating clients/dists 20:30:52 -!- SrPx [bad4ba35@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.212.186.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:36:26 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[~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:44:33 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:33 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:41 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-98-216-109-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:51:35 mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has joined #lisp 22:51:42 -!- kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-5f730d13.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:52:36 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:53:31 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-133-151.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:58:20 -!- mritz [~textual@97.65.251.170] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:58:53 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 22:59:33 kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-5f730d13.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:55 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-2-221.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:27 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-128-59-157-237.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:03:39 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-128-59-157-237.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:33 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:06 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:42 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:00 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.210.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:09:05 how do I create a more generic function of this?: https://gist.github.com/4237356 23:09:08 ehu [~ehu@109.35.180.229] has joined #lisp 23:09:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.35.180.229] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:31 I want to be able to create something and pass 'links-seen, 'links-crawled, or 'links-to-crawl 23:09:57 and it will print out the contents of the given symbol name 23:10:08 would this be an opportune time to use a macro? 23:10:34 is it print-links for all of them? 23:10:55 <|3b|> funcall or slot-value? 23:10:59 yup 23:11:13 then just write a function, using slot-value instead of what you've got there 23:11:15 |3b|: I don't understand your question 23:11:22 <|3b|> those were suggestions 23:11:37 <|3b|> since your slots have accessors with the same names, either would work 23:11:54 <|3b|> SLOT-VALUE lets you access a slot on an instance by name, FUNCALL lets you call a function by name 23:12:44 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:14:08 |3b|, bike: thank you for the suggestions 23:14:29 <|3b|> or just pass the actual value of the slot 23:15:11 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:16:20 cornihilio: you should write functions that do only one thing. 23:16:44 what does this mean?: https://gist.github.com/4237425 23:16:46 print-manager-links-crawled does TWO things: it prints a list of links, and it fetch the list of links-crawled from the manager. 23:16:58 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:17:08 So it obviously gives a bad taste in the mouth. 23:17:52 so accessing object properties is non functional? 23:17:54 cornihilio: you defined your gf to take one argument, and then you wrote a method that takes two instead. 23:17:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:58 Instead, Use the links-crawled function to get a list of links, and write a print-links function to print a list of links. So you can write: (print-links (lnks-crawled manager)) or (print-links (links-seen manager)) etc. 23:19:48 cornihilio: the error you get is because you've already defined a generic function named print-manager-links with ONE argument, and here you're defining a method with TWO arguments. 23:21:01 Either define a method with a single argument, or redefine the generic function. (you may unintern the function naming the generic function and re-evaluate the defmethod to recreate a new generic function with two arguments). But as I said above, it's wrong to write a function that does two things, so instead write a simple print-links function. 23:22:03 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:22:42 pjb: thank you! 23:23:52 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.36.39] has joined #lisp 23:27:16 xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has joined #lisp 23:27:23 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:37 -!- nan_ [~user@46.197.116.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:12 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:04 -!- 92AABU885 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:30:55 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:59 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:19 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7572b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:33:10 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 23:34:03 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:44 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Quit: ] 23:34:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.169] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:34:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:00 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:05 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:35:05 -!- Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:36 Jasko2 [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:50 rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-004-006.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:51 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-004-006.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:35:51 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 23:35:59 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:27 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:36:43 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:38:16 -!- bonch [~bonch@174.137.69.7] has quit [Quit: The computer fell asleep] 23:39:08 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-225-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:46:14 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@acnv197.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:48:21 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 23:48:25 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.198] has joined #lisp 23:48:54 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.222.252.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:51:46 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:51:53 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 23:58:25 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 23:59:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-68.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]