00:01:47 kanru`` [~kanru@111-249-165-220.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:30 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:04:05 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:05:53 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:02 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-52.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:13:29 heya, drew 00:13:41 ah, late to notice. 00:15:42 -!- kslt1` [~karl.sier@netblock-72-25-110-30.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:16:48 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:50 hey hey Fade :) 00:17:21 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:17:37 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:51 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:22:12 killerbo1 [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 00:22:35 -!- killerbo1 is now known as killerboy 00:25:46 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:29 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:ecdb:953c:f626:616b] has joined #lisp 00:28:45 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:09 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:26 -!- PCChris [cyungmann_@wireless-165-124-248-75.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:32:32 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:36 PCChris [cyungmann_@wireless-165-124-248-75.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:35:28 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2392.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:37 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:36:44 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:39:42 carlo5 [~510carlos@134.154.160.53] has joined #lisp 00:41:05 myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 00:41:30 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:43:00 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:38 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:45:02 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47:20 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:16 -!- carlo5 [~510carlos@134.154.160.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:49 -!- Alatien [~Alatien@253.Red-83-33-80.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Alatien] 00:53:15 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-88-229.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:17 hi 00:53:55 if I have a rnning thread, how can I interrupt it as if it was by C-c C-c 00:53:58 ? 00:54:01 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 00:54:45 -!- Ynjh [~Daisy@109.58.114.127.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:12 Ynjh [~Daisy@109.58.114.127.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 00:57:46 The price of cheezberger is too damn high: http://i.imgur.com/Scso8.jpg 01:00:04 -!- kanru`` [~kanru@111-249-165-220.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:03:17 wakeup: sorry, but, what do you want to do? 01:03:44 wakeup: M-x slime-list-threads 01:03:48 d 01:04:01 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:05:26 I want to have a function INTERRUPT that takes a thread and basically does what it takes to make slime open an "interrupt window" for that thread 01:07:26 what keystrokes to you normally enter to create the 'interrupt window' :) 01:09:01 C-c C-c...? 01:09:28 ok maybe I should look at the source first ;) 01:09:38 so you compile it? ;) 01:09:53 no 01:10:01 it interrupts the repl thread 01:10:26 so you want whatever slime's REPL mode has bound to C-c C-c? 01:10:31 slime has this WITH-INTERRUPT thing 01:10:40 I pmed you about smug 01:11:53 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:11 SLIME-INTERRUPT ... that is an emacs function that SLIME uses to INTERRUPT ... I knew that by searching the slime.el for "interrupt" 01:14:43 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:15:06 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:18:11 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 01:18:17 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.104.175.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 01:19:41 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:21 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:20:30 -!- Ynjh [~Daisy@109.58.114.127.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:22:48 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good night] 01:23:08 lizzin [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:32 -!- lizzin is now known as Guest32625 01:24:17 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.254.103] has joined #lisp 01:24:58 -!- Yuuhi```` [benni@p5483A188.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:27:11 -!- ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:30:20 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:30:24 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:34:33 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:42 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:38 madnificent: was it you that was saying you had to hack the cl-svg for abug? 01:41:49 *a bug 01:42:27 what's a good way to patch a system in quicklisp? 01:43:26 also, how can you find out where ql is getting a specific system from? 01:45:24 ql:where-is-system 01:46:52 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:47:00 orivej: beautiful! 01:49:53 if i modify the source there, will quicklisp know to rebuild it before it is next quicload'ed? 01:50:10 -!- benny [~user@i577A1A78.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:50:47 yates: Mu 01:50:55 orivej: i'm asking over in #quicklisp - thanks 01:51:21 drewc:  ? 01:51:40 "mu" is sometimes used to mean something like "there is no good answer to that question" 01:51:56 no, "" 01:51:57 ah. 01:52:04 drewc: smarty-pants. 01:52:45 no, my balls are called 'm&ms' .. melt in your mouth, not in your hands. 01:53:11 drewc: you have balls? 01:53:59 yup ... 2006 and 2010 addidas world cup balls! 01:55:04 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:16 ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 01:55:40 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest12066 01:56:31 perhaps i should create a new derivative system locally and load that? 01:56:52 sounds yucky. 01:58:49 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:00:56 Is there a good place to head for getting started on lisp? 02:01:19 pcl 02:02:11 clhs pcl 02:02:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for pcl. 02:02:23 minion: pcl? 02:02:24 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:02:29 thank you. 02:02:43 minion: clhs? 02:02:43 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 02:02:47 -!- Guest12066 [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:52 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:58 is a standard way of defining objects in CLOS to (defmethod my-member-function ...) and then (defgeneric my-member-function ...) 02:05:04 ? 02:05:18 that doesn't define any objects. 02:06:22 The CLOS is VERY different from Java/Ruby/Python ? 02:06:41 defining class? 02:06:56 defclass 02:07:06 well ... unless generic functions are objects ... 02:07:07 (typep #'result 'standard-object) 02:07:08 T 02:08:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.160.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:08:58 and since defmethod does a defgeneric if that FN is not DEF'd yet ... then defmethod there does define an object... 02:09:27 method metaobjects are standard-objects too, i just assumed yates was being imprecise 02:09:58 sw2wolf: well, CLOS is an object system, Java/Ruby/Python are languages ... then yes, is it very different indeed... It is not a language. 02:10:15 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.160.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:20 Bike: I assumed that as well, and am really just 'playing around' 02:10:24 right 02:12:04 because as you mention, imprecise and, IMHO, absurd as well :D 02:13:03 yep 02:15:52 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-88-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:16:20 is there some convention in cl/clos that methods are invoked with a ":" prefix? 02:16:40 nope, that's just symbol stuff 02:16:40 (defmethod xlink-href ((e svg-element)) (format nil "url(#~A)" (element-id e))) 02:16:57 but it seems to be used like this: (define-element-maker :use "use" '(:xlink-href)) 02:17:08 that's just a keyword. 02:17:17 some cl-svg-specific convention 02:17:22 try macroexpanding it. 02:17:25 PCChris_ [cyungmann_@wireless-165-124-248-75.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 02:17:53 *drewc* has his jaw drop when he reads that ... 02:18:54 yates: can I suggest learning about Common Lisp first? say the syntax, the object system etc? 02:18:56 -!- PCChris [cyungmann_@wireless-165-124-248-75.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:19:32 drewc: like Ed Gruberman in "Boot to the Head," I ask "How long is that gonna take?" 02:21:00 Well, I have been learning Common Lisp for just about 10 years now ... I hope that in 10 years I will know close to everything I need, or at least where to find the info. 02:21:07 maybe i should join the Paclid's on Star Trek NG and say, "It's broken. How do you make it go?" 02:21:22 (defgeneric :foo () (:method () t)) 02:21:38 (:foo) => T 02:21:58 http://paste.opensuse.org/6815878 02:22:24 ebobby_ [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 02:22:34 drewc: sorry! just back. would you mind making it clear about "oject system" and "jaguage" ? 02:22:58 the problem is here: (defmethod xlink-href ((e svg-element)) (format nil "url(#~A)" (element-id e))) 02:23:07 k0001 [~k0001@host70.190-229-210.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:23:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:23:20 it should be: (defmethod xlink-href ((e svg-element)) (format nil "#~A" (element-id e))) 02:23:44 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:51 drewc: the OO should contain: Inherience, Encapsulation & Polymorphism 02:23:51 but i don't want to change that method. i'd like to create a new one and get it used in the right place instead. 02:24:06 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:24:52 ok, if you look at define-element-maker, you'll see that it's just using :xlink-href as a parameter to make-instance. 02:25:00 ok 02:25:08 nothing to do with the xlink-href method, near as I can tell. 02:26:13 i presume it somehow gets connected. i just don't know where the magic pixie dust is. 02:26:28 Do you have a question that is spelled right and makes sense? I would not mind answering ... but if it is homework I will be sure to answer 'wrongly' :D 02:26:32 sw2wolf: ^ 02:27:08 near as I can tell, your presumption is incorrect 02:27:15 -!- ebobby_ [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:15 very possible... 02:27:27 since i don't know what the hell i am doing.. 02:27:47 and yes, that's stating the obvious... 02:27:49 in any case, you can redefine a method easily 02:27:53 ebobby_ [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 02:27:53 -!- ebobby_ [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:13 QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:22 (in-package #:cl-svg) (defmethod xlink-href ((e svg-element)) (format nil "#~A" (element-id e))) ; done 02:28:35 drewc: not homework :) 02:28:54 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:28:59 oh doggie doo. 02:29:01 sw2wolf: ok good! So what is the question? 02:29:02 i see it now. 02:29:06 you're right, Bike 02:29:30 just put that in a patch.lisp and load it whenever you want 02:29:37 drewc: what's the difference between Object System and Language ? 02:29:56 Bike: no, my error is much worse than that. 02:30:13 drewc: CLOS is not OO language ? 02:30:23 sw2wolf: originally, CL had no object system. CLOS was devised later and partially integrated with the rest of the language. so we frequently refer to it as a separate entity, an "object system". 02:30:39 sw2wolf: you could define an object system on top of a language, anyway. gtk+ does. sorta. 02:31:37 sw2wolf: I could define CLOS on top of 02:31:57 Bike: then we should not regards CLOS as language, right ? 02:32:14 "language" and "system" aren't exactly precisely defined terms, you can do what you like 02:32:15 CLOS is not a language, it is a Common Lisp Object System 02:32:55 for example, you could talk about CLOS as a language extension, or as a sublanguage with its own operators and such 02:32:58 "Originally proposed as an add-on, CLOS was adopted as part of the ANSI standard for Common Lisp and has been adapted into other Lisp dialects like EuLisp or Emacs Lisp" ... 3 languages .. one CLOS 02:33:06 but it's certainly not the same thing as python or java. 02:33:29 drewc:i see it, but as a user we use CLOS to program which seems same as using java ? 02:34:38 Bike: thx 02:34:47 drewc: thx 02:35:27 my g-d ... So my laptop is a language and using it is the same as using Java? ;) I use my laptops to program after all! 02:36:02 i mean: defclass -> defmethod -> instance class 02:36:37 okay, you've listed some terms, now what. 02:37:08 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:43 We can find corresponding part in java/ruby/python ... 02:38:59 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 02:39:18 Greetings lispers 02:39:49 defclass () { ;;} <-- and in sh 02:40:19 drewc: what is that ? 02:40:23 so, therefore, Common Lisp Object System is just a shell script away. 02:40:26 it's a sh script. 02:43:08 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 02:44:11 then is CLOS programming an OOP ? If so there must be some common thing among CLOS and java,etc. 02:44:43 i hear they have objects 02:44:55 *drewc* is going to leave now, because "Mu" is apparently not going over well here and I have nothing else to say 02:46:12 Bike: how about Inheritence, Encapsulation and Polymorphism ? 02:46:48 are you going somewhere with all this 02:47:10 OOP needs them 02:47:30 Bike: this (in-package #:cl-svg) (defmethod xlink-href ((e 02:47:31 svg-element)) (format nil "#~A" (element-id e))) ; 02:47:50 can be done in a different file than the package source? 02:48:12 my-pretty-svg-picture.lisp, e.g.? 02:48:30 yates: yes, the in-package is so that all the symbols are resolved appropriately. (be sure to change back to the previous package afterwards.) 02:49:00 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:18 ok, thanks! 02:49:41 sw2wolf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming <--- please read that and come back when you have some know-how, for right now you are sounding likw my C++ prof was in '92 or so. 02:49:43 like* 02:50:38 Bike: and the default package is cl-user so i would just (in-package #:cl-user) afterwards? 02:51:19 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host70.190-229-210.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:51:39 drewc: new OOP :) i'd like to see 02:53:33 is there no (in-package-excursion (package-name forms) ...) 02:54:57 Bike: this is the file i've modified - is it correct? http://susepaste.org/15882074 02:57:30 it's not working.. 02:59:43 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:59:55 The function CL-SVG-TESTS::XLINK-LOCAL is undefined. 03:00:03 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:30 -!- ioa [~xonox@dynamic2-251-034.usc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:01:17 yates: uh, it's xlink-href, isn't it. 03:01:34 no, i wanted to make a new method 03:02:00 you can't append a new method to an existing package this way? 03:02:26 I think that you may be confused about the difference between packages, generic functions, and systems. 03:02:34 teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.69] has joined #lisp 03:02:43 yes, most likely. 03:02:54 Methods are associated with generic functions. Generic functions may be associated with a name, which is a symbol. Symbols may be associated with packages. 03:03:21 er, names don't have to be symbols, they can also be a list for setf functions, but never mind that 03:03:33 so i have to define a generic function for this as well? 03:03:48 no, defmethod makes one automatically. (though having a gf is a good idea) 03:03:56 Oh. I see the problem. 03:03:56 (defgeneric xlink-local (element)) 03:04:13 i have a gf. :) 03:04:19 what? 03:04:31 xlink-local isn't exported from the cl-svg package, so when you define your cl-svg-tests package, xlink-local isn't available from the USE 03:04:53 so, it looks up xlink-local in cl-svg-tests, which is wrong. 03:05:27 you could fix that by either explicitly qualifying the symbol in your test code (i.e. write out cl-svg::xlink-local), or export xlink-local from cl-svg yourself. 03:05:31 how do you specify which functions in a package are exported? 03:05:54 it's part of the defpackage form, but you can do it yourself with (export 'xlink-local) [while in the cl-svg package] 03:05:57 aha. 03:06:02 you're getting to the point of violating system modularity, though 03:06:05 yates: step one: learn common lisp, the packages, the syntax, the scope, the type system & CLOS ... step 2: read through the scrollback here and laugh at yourself :D 03:06:29 drewc: my scrollback buffer won't last for 10 years... 03:06:35 where's weitz's package thing. 03:06:44 http://weitz.de/packages.html 03:06:52 Bike: ok, great- let me give that a try. 03:07:03 ah ha 03:07:06 lol 03:07:14 killer cartoon of bart. 03:07:26 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:07:38 reading too... 03:07:55 i wouldn't feel bad for not getting it at first though, packages are pretty tricky, and different from most languages because of lisp's symbolicness, I think 03:08:05 Bike: by the way, i appreciate your help. thank you. 03:08:19 no problem. 03:08:35 gotta help the wife with her math - back in awhile. 03:08:50 yates: ok, first, learn EMACS and znc! C-x C-w ~/poundlisp-2012-12-04 03:09:39 *drewc* has znc .. not needed for this though .. emacs rcirc, otoh, or even erc ... ahhh good. 03:10:11 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:11:21 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 03:13:37 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:27 and yeah, fwiw I agree with Bike ... the standardised packages were never meant to be the 'be all end all', and in fact was the minimum needed so that all lisps would use it at their code. 03:16:28 core* 03:17:11 i was kind of horrified when I learned that defpackage was a relatively recent addition, and it used to be usual to just make-package, export, intern everywhere 03:17:43 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/packages.htm#hier-packs-1 <--- that is similar to the 'future' of the package system IMO 03:18:56 and yes, import, extern, and REQUIRE and PROVIDE as well. 03:19:22 momo-reina [~user@ntt9-ppp1030.osaka.sannet.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:19:58 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 03:21:53 -!- sw2wolf is now known as sw2wolf{away} 03:23:25 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 03:25:11 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@69.116.232.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:54 and, fwiw, I hate IMPORT and USE-PACKAGE and EXPORT ... I like having it all in one place, like say defpackage :) 03:27:58 yeah, that's part of why i'm loathe to suggest export to yates 03:30:01 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:16 zamboni [~trey@unaffiliated/zamboni] has joined #lisp 03:32:22 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.42.34.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:32:35 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 03:32:36 -!- piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:33:50 I have to agree with you there. for that matter, I don't understand why that method is being redefined at all ... but meh, I guess I do not know enough about such things 03:35:09 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:49 paul0 [~paulo@177.96.49.31] has joined #lisp 03:36:56 -!- PCChris_ [cyungmann_@wireless-165-124-248-75.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:06 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 03:40:15 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has joined #lisp 03:44:16 segmond [~segmond@99.150.137.44] has joined #lisp 03:44:48 benny [~user@i577A7EF2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:51:54 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:53:46 -!- momo-reina [~user@ntt9-ppp1030.osaka.sannet.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:36 I'm trying to create a basic web spider in cl, and I'm really banging my head against the wall here. I'm trying to create a way to extracting every url in a given html page, but I'm unsure of how. this is what I have so far: https://gist.github.com/4212056 03:56:36 cornihilio, memo from pjb: CAPI is the name of an interface. An interface cannot be specific to anything. It can be implemented by something and used by something. CAPI is implemented in LispWorks. It could be implemented elsewhere! Just do it! http://www.lispworks.com/products/capi.html <05:58:18> drewc: err... is capi lw specific? 03:58:02 i'm pretty sure grepping through html with regexes is considered a sin in several religions. 03:58:20 and of course completely broken 03:58:25 what i want for christmas http://i.imgur.com/IUHhw.gif 03:58:54 minion: closure-html? 03:58:55 closure-html: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 03:59:05 Bike: haha. but what am I supposed to instead? turn html into sexprs, and then flatten and to find anchors? 03:59:32 cornihilio: use a proper parser (such as closure there), and look for anchor tags, yes. 03:59:41 I tried that and it felt way too complicated; I thought regex would be an easy "find all these things for me" sort of thing 03:59:48 yeah .. good point, there has never been an XML/HTML parser done is lisp ever! 04:00:07 cornihilio: you must be a new programmer ;) 04:00:32 it's not. you can't reliably do anything with html with regexes. i can link you to several posts on the subject, varying in tone between disgust and mad joking. 04:00:50 But you don't have to parse HTML yourself. Use a library. 04:00:53 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/11/parsing-html-the-cthulhu-way.html 04:01:25 if you feel it's too complicated, keep at it till you figure it out or start with something less complicated 04:01:43 I mean, even the regex to match an email address is long and convolution and still can fail for 0.001% of the cases 04:01:55 convoluted* 04:02:03 have you ever parsed html in any other language? 04:04:00 -!- benny [~user@i577A7EF2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:04:53 cornihilio, i'm new to lisp, but i just took a look at the git url you posted, me thinks you really should stop and learn lisp first before trying to work with it. 04:06:20 And wasn't it Paul Graham who said that coding in a language is a great way to learn the language? 04:06:29 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:06:48 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:07:01 paul graham said that dog shit tastes like chocolate too 04:07:28 coding in a language is not necessarily a great way to learn if you are not really learning and developing bad habit 04:07:34 K 04:07:35 he is writing fortran in lisp 04:07:35 how do I call something like: "stp:do-recursively" when "closure-html:stp:do-recursively" doesn't work? 04:07:59 developing a bad lisp style early is going to hurt down the line 04:08:13 whatever, I'll get it to work and then fix it up 04:08:29 if you're going to do it right later, why not do it right from the get go 04:08:41 because I don't know what I'm doing and most of it is trial and error 04:08:48 cornihilio: symbols have one package, there's no hierarchy like that 04:09:00 i can tell, so why not read a book and just work on the sample problems for now 04:09:11 then after that, you can begin working on whatever you wish 04:09:42 cornihilio: learn lisp, then come back when you have questions that make sense 04:10:25 Bike: thank you, I guess I was supposed to change it to cxml-stp 04:12:47 k0001 [~k0001@host172.190-137-34.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:16:17 so in my code: https://gist.github.com/4212191 I am getting this error: https://gist.github.com/4212196 and I'm not sure what it means 04:16:33 I've never seen that error/exception before 04:16:50 heh .. I just looked at the code ... a whole bunch of SETFs that can do the wrong thing/anything ... 04:17:43 cornihilio: your code expands to and/or calls cxml-stp-impl::%children on something it's not supposed to. I haven't used cxml but I'd suggest double checking the manual 04:18:25 google, "practical common lisp", "common lisp an interactive approach", "common lisp a gentle introduction to symbolic computing", you have get those 3 books for free in pdf format 04:18:35 something it's not supposed to be called on, rather 04:18:47 Bike: ah, okay. thank you for pointing that out. I will go read that manual. 04:18:49 bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 04:19:06 "-a symbol naming a variable" "Variable: a binding in the ``variable'' namespace" ... 04:19:07 segmond: what exactly am I doing that's causing you to make these suggestions 04:19:27 cornihilio: the special variables, setf in a C-like way rather than using let... 04:20:27 SETF in a 'not common lisp' type way ... for that matter. 04:20:40 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:01 cornihilio, i'm new to lisp, and one look at your code and that was enough, if you read those books, in a month, you will get sooooo far, and you won't have to ask all these questions you are asking 04:21:01 drewc: that's why I used a let* 04:21:42 oh, and you have a main function, for some reason. 04:22:21 It seems (setf (access-fn ...) 'value) is clear than defsetf ? sorry if it is too newbie as i never used defsetf in my CL codes. 04:22:36 sw2wolf{away}: Mu 04:22:46 I don't understand what you just said. 04:22:49 what's Mu ?' 04:23:45 Bike, would you like show me a defsetf code snippet ? 04:24:04 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:08 hi all 04:24:26 sw2wolf{away}: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 04:24:38 thanks 04:24:40 Farther down. (defsetf subseq ...) 04:27:28 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 04:28:19 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has left #lisp 04:28:33 drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 04:29:15 -!- sw2wolf{away} is now known as sw2wolf 04:29:24 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:29 benny [~user@i577A1622.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:22 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 04:30:48 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:32:25 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has left #lisp 04:32:30 drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 04:32:38 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:43 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:35:10 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host172.190-137-34.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:35:30 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 04:40:08 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 04:40:46 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.198] has joined #lisp 04:43:54 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:47:30 -!- bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:48:01 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:40 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:49:13 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:51:01 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:53:40 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:54:00 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 04:57:46 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:00:35 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 05:06:17 leo2007 [~leo@198.148.116.100] has joined #lisp 05:08:52 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:09:10 Bike: success. 05:09:22 and drewc... 05:10:12 ima so happy 05:11:51 i didn't even understand your question ^^ but i like the language so far 05:12:42 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:54 k0001 [~k0001@host15.190-136-192.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:14:17 is there nor car / cdr in sbcl? 05:14:44 There is. 05:14:52 then im doing something wrong 05:17:35 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:18:06 there is CAR and CDR in most lisps ... and for that matter any lang that has CONS cells ... which is really just a 'pair'... so by any other name, it is the same :) 05:18:25 clhs car 05:18:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 05:18:50 wicked_shell: post code -> discover why you're wrong 05:19:45 im trying to do a function that gets me the 4th element of a list 05:19:55 exercise from ansi common lisp book 05:20:50 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:20:57 ooh ooh! lisp has a variable and function namespace! so (symbol-value 'car) vs (symbol-function 'car) ... or, "The variable CAR is unbound"! :) 05:21:00 less talk, more code gogogo http://paste.lisp.org let's see this monstrosity 05:21:18 As much as I enjoy "guess my bug" charades. 05:21:34 drewc would surely win 05:21:34 -!- sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:36 ok sec 05:21:39 *drewc* is trying to solve things without knowing ... because it is 21:21 05:21:50 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:23:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134056 05:23:16 don't laugh ^^ 05:23:34 (my-fourt (1 2 3 4) gives me illegal function call 05:23:48 1 is not a function 05:23:50 that's because (1 2 3 4) is an illegal function call. 05:23:51 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:09 ah wait 05:24:12 wicked_shell: try (my-fourth 1 2 3 4) 05:24:14 you gotta quote your arguments 05:24:14 i need to quote 05:24:20 aha 05:24:23 oh, derp 05:24:24 i see ) 05:24:25 yes 05:24:28 :D 05:24:32 or, use LIST 05:24:45 it's 00:24 here :( 05:24:53 (fourth (list 1 2 3 4 5)) 05:24:55 anytime you see an illegal function call, you might be doing that 05:25:06 btw, you can combine car and cdr 05:25:23 still kinda hard with only ( ) for syntaxis 05:25:37 sorry? 05:25:39 not really 05:25:52 you'll learn how wonderful it is to not crud up your syntax 05:26:01 man I really don't get why I'm screwing up using nconc here: https://gist.github.com/4212595 05:26:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for I really don't get why I'm screwing up using nconc here: https://gist.github.com/4212595. 05:26:15 guys 05:26:16 what i want for christmas http://i.imgur.com/IUHhw.gif 05:26:19 I have several lines of real-world erlang code that look something like [}}]}])}))]}]}}} 05:26:31 s/[/]/ 05:26:33 lol 05:26:41 oh .. right ... this is what I should say. "Don't use ', use QUOTE. Don't use #', use FUNCTION" 05:26:46 you have all kinds of other syntax! try '#'(#()) 05:26:56 drewc: no, that's pjb's job. 05:27:00 haha. I know I should be using append/cons but since it's within do-recursively I think I should be using ncons, right? 05:27:24 also i should use functional mainly right? 05:27:39 no idea yet why, hope i'll figure it out later hehe 05:27:44 sykopomp: I have never agreed with pjb until recently ... I use ' and #' all the time myself, but for beginners ... well. 05:27:52 cornihilio: what's ncons? 05:28:06 cornihilio: (setf html-links (nconc ...)), I think you want 05:28:28 wicked_shell: it's somewhat easier to understand, both for humans and for compilers, that's all. 05:28:28 aboob [~aboob@72.53.12.160] has joined #lisp 05:28:40 whoops, yup I meant nconc. 05:28:52 wicked_shell, look at this php code if ($a == $b) { echo $a; } else { echo $b; } , now strip off all the alphanumeric characters and you get ($==$){;}{;} 05:28:58 drewc: on a side note, I've met lispers who did Lisp professionally(?) for 10 years or so, yet didn't really know how dynamic variables worked. Maybe enforcing reader expansion for beginners isn't that misguided after all. 05:29:14 sykopomp, impossible 05:29:25 they never wrote lisp professionally for 10yrs 05:29:27 I wish I could say I was joking. 05:29:33 optikalmouse [~user@24-246-63-243.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:40 they might have first discovered it 10yrs ago 05:29:40 probably not, but they sure liked gloating about it. 05:29:51 segmond: what does that tell me? ^^ 05:29:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 05:30:06 wicked_shell, all languages have funny characters 05:30:18 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:34 nah its not the characters, its that you get too much potential from the start, its confusing 05:31:19 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:31:43 ok back to learning, thx for the help 05:31:58 np 05:32:01 happy hacking 05:32:10 enjoy your toenail clippings 05:32:37 i'll be back with stupid questions later =) 05:32:53 i'll hope different ones 05:34:12 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 like what is the difference between print and format ? 05:34:52 format can format output and has a DSL for doing so 05:35:04 print is write with some particular arguments set and ending with a newline. 05:35:19 k, thx 05:35:22 try (macroexpand-1 '(formatter [some format string here])) sometime 05:35:55 iwhat is macroexpand? 05:35:57 oh, beginning with a newline, oops. 05:36:02 like help? 05:36:10 wicked_shell: by the way, when you have specific questions like that, try looking at the hyperspec. 05:36:13 no. it expands a macro form. 05:36:22 it's very readable after you've warmed up a bit to its format and vocabulary. 05:36:45 i should probably don't ask questions until i read few more chapters.. ^^ 05:37:21 curiosity is good, and it's also good to accept answers. Carry on :> 05:37:54 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 05:38:48 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:42:05 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:43:50 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 05:45:11 sykopomp: I hate dynamic scope .. save for when I need it, then I adore it :) 05:45:44 drewc: can't you say the same thing about just about anything? 05:46:12 although i guess some people get so stuck on the hate they forget about the usefulness 05:46:28 well ... strangley enough ... I do not like the CL package system as it is ... 05:46:40 I hate side-effectful code... save for when it's really damn useful. 05:46:52 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 05:46:52 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 05:46:52 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 05:46:54 How do you name a `with-' macro which does not create any bindings? 05:46:54 but, as far as packages go ... well, it is a decent package system 05:47:06 drewc: I think the package system is pretty wrappable in Useful Ways. 05:47:12 Or do you not even name it `with-something'? 05:47:50 echo-area: with-transaction doesn't necessarily bind something, for example. 05:48:18 sykopomp: Where does this macro come from? 05:48:21 sykopomp: indeed, and the READer can take care of the rest ... that does not mean I like it :) 05:48:29 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:48:45 echo-area: It's incarnated in a few database-related libraries, for example. 05:49:04 with-call/cc 05:49:28 echo-area: in my book, anything that establishes a dynamic context can be called with-* 05:49:38 *sykopomp* imagines there's exceptions. 05:49:59 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:02 *drewc* will now say: 05:50:13 sykopomp: To me it seems not that intuitive this way. How do you think about names like `progn-configured'? 05:50:26 what's wrong with with- 05:50:26 and ideally, the WITH- macro expands to a CALL-WITH- function 05:50:40 lisp programmers are quite used to with-whatever, regardless of bindings 05:50:45 echo-area: the concept of an implicit progn is common enough that I find that kind of prefix... redundant/ridiculous. 05:51:09 sykopomp: i suppose handler-* in the standard would be an exception? 05:51:18 echo-area: with-* pretty explicitly tells users that you're setting something up, and very likely tearing it down by the end of the with-* 05:51:31 Bike: handler-bind/handler-case/unwind-protect/etc 05:52:10 no one's holding a gun to your head when it comes to with-*, but it's a pretty common convention, and it'll get the point across pretty quickly. 05:52:18 whereas I have no idea what progn-configured would do. 05:52:31 does progn need some kind of configuration? 05:53:03 sykopomp: Okay. I actually introduce a context of configurations loaded from specific configuration files. How do you think about `with-loaded-configurations'? 05:53:28 the WITH- macro means "do the following with " ... at least it does to me ... but then again I am a common lisp user, so what do I know. 05:54:40 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:55:48 echo-area: that sounds like a really good macro name, actually 05:55:58 I can imagine exactly what it does. 05:56:02 just from the name. 05:56:16 sykopomp: Thank you for the help :) 05:56:19 yeah, I would say that it is a poor macro name for that reason! 05:56:37 drewc: What do you mean? 05:56:40 drewc: you just want it to have more monads 05:56:47 silly drewc :( 05:56:51 WITH-CONFIGURATION is a better name 05:57:10 drewc: with-open-file, instead of with-file 05:57:11 maybe he has plans for with-unloaded-configurations 05:57:15 because it is not LOADing for one, and even if it is, that should not be part of the syntax 05:57:20 with-loaded-configuration isn't unreasonable. 05:58:01 sykopomp, if you don't load the configuration, what else can you do to it? 05:58:03 sykopomp: with-open-file vs with-file are different things ... 05:58:22 drewc: how? 05:59:09 drewc: I tend to think there is a symbol, coming with the macro, to be used inside its body. But in my case the symbol does not exist, configurations are saved into a dynamic variable. So I don't want to name it `with-configuration' 05:59:19 well, what does WITH-OPEN-FILE do? 05:59:36 is the OPEN referring to OPEN? 06:00:18 as much as -FILE is referring to FILE 06:00:20 if i use a lisp book for my pillow, would i wake up knowing more lisp? 06:00:43 echo-area: well, then, do what you want... but if you thing WITH has anything to do with dynamic scope, well, there is an issue with your thought process :) 06:01:03 :( 06:01:09 why are you so mean :( 06:01:13 sykopomp: so, what should WITH-FILE be for ? 06:01:19 because he is really a lisper 06:01:20 is that mean? 06:01:33 why is that considered mean? 06:02:03 drewc: there's a good number of examples in lisp libraries where with-* is used to establish some kind of dynamic context, not just bind variables. 06:02:04 drewc: Why? I just want to unify the places where configurations are loaded 06:02:04 regardless of what you think it should do 06:02:19 so it's, like, your opinion, man 06:02:48 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:02:49 dynamic context vs dynamic variables are different things 06:03:17 not necessarily 06:03:34 specially when any dynamic variables are purely internal implementation details that are never leaked. 06:04:09 anyway sleep. Good night. 06:04:46 sykopomp: does with open file open a stream that has dynamic extent? 06:05:12 bound to a lexical variable? 06:05:48 drewc: What is the drawback with this usage? 06:06:09 yes, and no. 06:06:13 echo-area: sorrym, with what usage? 06:06:18 to each of your two questions. 06:07:39 drewc: The usage to have a macro setting up the value of a dynamic variable and use that value during the whole life of the process 06:08:11 yes because the stream object created is explicitly defined as being of dynamic extent, no because with-open-file binds a variable, which may have been declared special. 06:08:19 (I don't know where you're going with that) 06:09:39 what I am saying is that it has nothing to do with dynamic variables, and does not make a dynamic variable. 06:10:47 Basically, I am talking about the words, because that is important, using the correct terms for the correct things when discussing with other. My bad, I will stop now. 06:10:53 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:11:06 echo-area: well, closures 06:12:07 but, as long as you do not care and will keep it bound the entire time always, then go for it... 06:12:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:12:11 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.160.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:52 drewc: What I need here is a variable standing for loaded configurations. It is used in many places, not just a single function. So it has to be global, which means it can't be inside a closure. 06:15:50 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:55 it can't? why not? is that going to be different all the time, like the config changes once a millisecond or something? 06:17:10 No 06:17:53 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:09 ok, but different functions are going to have a different value, and you are going to use WITH- all over the place to load a different config? 06:18:12 But how do you define functions to use a binding inside a closure outside the closure? 06:18:24 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:18:25 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:18:32 sorry? 06:19:08 I want to use the with- macro right after the program starts. Think it like `(with-loaded-configurations (main))' 06:19:18 the idea, presumably, is that somewhere you have (defun foo (...) [stuff with *configuration*]) and then elsewhere (with-loaded-configuration (foo)) 06:21:55 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:42 ok, and what is that macro going to do, what is the point of it? what is the loaded-configuration, why does it need a WITH- macro? 06:23:07 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 06:23:52 clsql or cl-mysql ? 06:24:13 minion: postmodern 06:24:14 postmodern: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/postmodern 06:24:28 zophy: ^ ;) 06:24:41 poetmodem ? 06:24:44 drewc: Because I want to avoid assignment here. I want to be pure functional, without setting a variable's value 06:24:49 postmodem ? 06:25:22 drewc: And with dynamic context this is easily done 06:26:06 zophy: beyond that I cannot say ... I used clsql before postmodern came out, so know that is is fine ... stopped using mysql in '99, so no idea :( 06:26:08 that brings up the wuestion of mysql or postsql then 06:26:54 or is it postgres ? 06:26:57 eh 06:27:06 postgresql 06:27:43 well, here is the thing ... 06:28:16 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 06:28:19 postgresql was originally written in lisp, and has many papers on how it can be used for persistent CLOS objects ... 06:28:39 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:28:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:28:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:28:52 well there's only billions of dollars at risk, so i'll flip a whorehouse token coin 06:30:51 well, The only time I have not used postgresql with lisp was when I had to use oracle ... but we are only talking about millions of dollars here, so no coin to flip. 06:32:12 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 06:32:42 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 06:33:19 echo-area: makes sense I guess ... if dynamic scope is purely functional in your mind, then go for it... I cannot see anything wrong with you WITH- if it simply expands to LET ... I would suggest having only one SPECIAL variable though, because it can then be lexically rebound for when it has to be. 06:33:33 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:33:51 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:34:58 (and _i_ like a plist or an alist with the keys as keywords for the value of that SPECIAL , but that is just my personal preference) 06:35:02 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:27 drewc: Sure, that's useful when, e.g., I want to temporarily add some configurations to the global. 06:36:52 is there something like rest for strings? 06:36:54 oh yeah, that is quite useful indeed. (let ((*conf* `(:temp "foo" ,@*conf*))) ...) etc 06:37:09 cornihilio: subseq 06:38:11 echo-area: since ASSOC and SETF are first come first served, that can be very nice. 06:38:17 err GETF 06:38:29 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:39:24 gko [270b1770@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.11.23.112] has joined #lisp 06:42:31 echo-area: so, then, here comes my real question ... If it is just LET binding one SPECIAL in one place ... and that is the only time that macro will be used ... 06:42:46 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:43:01 drewc: I see what you mean :) 06:43:29 w00t! Sorry for being so 'mean' about it! :D 06:43:45 k0001_ [~k0001@host172.190-229-166.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 drewc: Well I'd like to thank you to be "mean". You asked some questions I didn't see for myself, and when answering the questions I see the truth in more depth 06:46:02 well, in that case I will thank you kindly, for that was my intention, and I am quite happy it worked out that way. 06:46:41 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host15.190-136-192.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:47:56 so, since we are on that subject ... (defun call-with-loaded-confs (fn) (let ((*confs ...)) ..)) and (call-with-loaded-confs (lambda () (main))) 06:48:50 drewc: The variable is defined in its own package, because I want the other part of my program to refer to it. That's why I define this macro. 06:49:07 that is similar to what you want, which is the conf code separated from the running MAIN code i think .. 06:49:29 that has nothing to do with macros at all ... packages 06:49:56 Oh 06:50:11 (let ((internal-package::*conf* ...)) ...) 06:51:41 or, even better, have the CALL-WITH defun'd in the same package as *conf*, and (:export #:CALL-WITH-) in the package def 06:51:42 cibs [~cibs@219-87-142-18.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 06:52:02 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:52:15 hmm postgresql has a mysql emulation layer.. 06:52:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:54:30 yeah ... if you have an existing schema in mysql, well ... that is an improvement already running it in postgresql :P 06:55:22 drewc: So there is still a special variable, the only difference is a function vs. a macro 06:56:31 The boolean data type now takes positive integers in addition to "true" and "false". 06:57:59 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:58:14 echo-area: yeah ... unless you 'need' syntax, there is no need for macros. 06:58:26 -!- aboob [~aboob@72.53.12.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:31 haha, this mysql emulation is a joke i see :) 06:58:35 pegu [~user@c242C76D9.static.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:47 -!- gko [270b1770@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.11.23.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:59:24 Thursday, April 1. 2010 06:59:26 heh 06:59:39 I use them less and less, because when you use a macro, you are designing a language.... I think the designers of CL were somewhat better then me. 06:59:48 zophy: :) 07:00:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:01:56 echo-area: (I used to think otherwise, and to this day have to put up with my own 'languages' that are now in commercial applications rather then common lisp ) 07:02:16 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:03:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:03:58 well, not using macros is not really going to make your code better, because functional APIs can be terrible as well 07:04:39 but, the macro's I still write are mostly WITH- and DEFINE-, and expand to CALL-WITH and ENSURE ... because ... yeah what stassats said. 07:05:47 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:07:51 I mean, I use LET all the time ... and not ((lambda (a) ....) 1) :) 07:08:15 higennic 07:08:27 sorry, error hit 07:08:29 drewc: but LET is a special operator, not a macro 07:08:45 and handling of lambda in the function place is special too 07:08:56 LET is more transparent and the presence of a macro can mostly be figured out from the naming, e.g. WITH- etc? 07:09:02 stassats: yeah, it is 07:09:36 guaqua: is progn a macro ? 07:09:42 or is this preference of staying away from macros motivated by something eles than readability? 07:09:53 no dispatch function defined for #\` - what does that mean? 07:09:59 stassats: but I have written lisps where it is a macro that exands to ... well not LAMBDA per se, but $VAU 07:10:15 do i need to define a function function? 07:10:20 and not really a macro at all 07:10:49 im getting that every time when trying to do exercises with function or with #` 07:10:57 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.199] has joined #lisp 07:11:12 drewc: I see what you means. But one cannot be better with that without practices ;-) 07:11:15 wicked_shell: your exercise typography is bad, it's #' 07:11:23 because it was an 'fexpr' ... so yeah, macros are great, and I would not like using a language that does not have them ... but they are easily abused :( 07:11:28 exercise book, that is 07:11:29 omg 07:11:32 thx 07:12:23 echo-area: true, true :) 07:12:27 (type-of #'progn) => undefine function progn 07:12:52 so i guess progn is a macro,isnot it ? 07:12:59 it's a special operator 07:13:14 stassats: like let ? 07:13:28 no, like a special operator 07:13:29 #'progn 07:13:29 # 07:13:41 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:45 that's allowed 07:14:16 drewc: why type-of reports "undefined function" ? 07:14:42 "it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form. An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a useful behavior." 07:14:46 the standard, read it! 07:15:00 okay I am trying to catch all the image links too... but I'm not having much success. does anyone have experience with cxml-stp? https://gist.github.com/4213352 07:15:41 I'm getting this error: ((CXML-STP:LOCAL-NAME PHIDIPPUS::A) "img") 07:16:00 which is an illegal function call apparently 07:16:17 yes, look at stassats's quotation. 07:16:26 maybe you want to write "equal" in your cond conditions? 07:16:28 cornihilio: well, it is, you figured it out! 07:16:44 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-32-163.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:52 (equal (cxml-stp:local-name a) "a") 07:17:40 nconc makes me cringe 07:17:43 oh jeez... sorry about that. 07:18:16 H4ns: what should I replace it with? normally I'd try not to but cxml-stp:do-recursively forces my hand, right? 07:18:37 cornihilio: push / reverse is the usual idiom 07:20:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qjiepfwacvmpqaad] has joined #lisp 07:20:33 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qjiepfwacvmpqaad] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:20:34 cornihilio: instead of (if .. (setf x ..) (setf x ..)) you can write (setf x (if .. .. ..)) 07:20:55 (or (push (if .. .. ..) html-links) 07:21:04 cornihilio: http://paste.lisp.org/+2VFU 07:21:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:22:29 *drewc* thinks that is much better lisping ... html as lhtml ... ahh! :) 07:23:00 drewc: for simple cases, maybe 07:23:15 H4ns: thank you for that suggestion about moving the setf up 07:23:54 cornihilio: also (format t "~{~A~%~}" html-links) 07:24:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:24:11 drewc: thank you for that idea! 07:24:14 stassats: well, I have really complex cases using that as well ... but then again, I like it 07:24:28 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.96.49.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:24:44 cornihilio: i'd not have a html variable, as it is used only once. and :get is the default for drakma:http-request 07:25:29 drewc: you're not using lists for things where you use CLOS instances or structures 07:25:33 *drewc* will not even get into his client for a website that has no api, so I emulate a browser using drakma, with-cookie-jar , and chtml/lhtml 07:25:57 cornihilio: your when could be (when (and (typep ..) (member .. '("a" "img") :test #'string-equal))) 07:26:13 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:26:17 no, I am not at all. 07:26:44 though I have used structures and CLOS instances where I should have used LISTs :) 07:28:13 that was back in the day, when I knew about structs and objects ... and not so much about CONS ... now, well, I still try to do the right thing... just my opinion on what that is changes. 07:29:18 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 07:29:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 07:29:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@198.148.116.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:30:41 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.74.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:31:03 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.254.103] has left #lisp 07:32:06 but, lhtml does rule for certain things ... one is the database ... you can PRINT-TO-STRING the whole thing and save it in the DB for later... or simply view the HTML on a backtrace. 07:32:16 PRINC even 07:33:31 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 07:35:53 pnkbst [~user@unaffiliated/pnkbst] has joined #lisp 07:38:25 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:38:38 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:38:56 -!- optikalmouse [~user@24-246-63-243.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:40:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:41:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:41:31 and not prin1? 07:41:59 princ will lose things like #\" 07:43:17 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has joined #lisp 07:44:44 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has joined #lisp 07:47:11 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.254.103] has joined #lisp 07:48:49 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:08 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:14 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:52:52 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:54:04 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:05 true ... PRIN1 it is! 07:54:51 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:55:50 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:07 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has joined #lisp 07:56:53 -!- zamboni [~trey@unaffiliated/zamboni] has quit [] 07:57:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:42 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has joined #lisp 07:57:45 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:00:27 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:03:12 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:04:44 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:06:21 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:53 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:07:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:12 lufu [~user@5.254.133.116] has joined #lisp 08:09:01 is there a way to enter escaped unicode characters in CL strings? something like \u+1234? (would be great if there were anything that worked on most Schemes and Emacs Lisp too :-/) 08:09:29 minion: cl-interpol? 08:09:30 cl-interpol: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-interpol 08:11:46 Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:12 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:12:31 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:14:22 How do I compile clisp with threading support? (I'm on GNU/Linux Debian sid.) 08:14:39 do you really need to? 08:14:58 or rather, do you want to use threads, but do you have to use clisp? 08:15:09 s/first do you/you/ 08:15:59 clisp threads are said to be experimental, so they might not work at all for you 08:16:22 consider SBCL or Clozure CL instead 08:16:53 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:17:21 Tbh I don't know. It's just that I can't compile stumpwm with the clisp that comes with Debian. I asked someone who successfully compiled stumpwm with clisp how he did it and the only thing he did different was that he uses clisp with thread support. So I guess I need that too. 08:17:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:17:41 no, that shouldn't matter for stumpwm 08:18:05 I would like to give it a try anyway. Can you tell me how to do that, stassats? 08:18:17 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ubrshidfxtfgthbp] has joined #lisp 08:18:29 what exactly? 08:19:35 How to get the source of clisp and compile it with thread support. I searched online for an how to but didn't find one and #clisp is dead right now. 08:20:05 i can only tell you "don't do it" or "don't use clisp" 08:20:29 and stumpwm doesn't need threads 08:20:40 k 08:21:17 stassats: iirc stumpwm needs threads in order to use SWANK 08:21:27 <|3b|> possibly building it by hand installed some libs that are in separate packages when you get it from distro? 08:22:14 daimrod: stumpwm doesn't use swank 08:22:47 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:23:00 stassats: no, but you can start a swank server from your configuration 08:23:43 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:45 daimrod: Exactly... that's what I want to do and that seems not to work with the clisp that is preinstalled on Debian. 08:24:24 <|3b|> sounds more like swank not working than stumpwm not working then 08:24:24 lufu: can't clisp use any other slime interop, like the signals or the third one? 08:24:59 doesn't swank need to be started in a dedicated thread? 08:25:19 That might be the case, |3b|... I just don't know.. 08:26:10 jdz: Sorry... I've no idea what you are trying to tell me. 08:26:14 lufu: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html#Communication-style 08:26:33 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:44 <|3b|> lufu: well, does stumpwm start if you don't try to load/start swank? 08:27:01 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-117-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:18 Thanks, I'll look into that, jdz. 08:29:25 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:29:25 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:29:25 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:30:29 |3b|: It does but this binary was compiled a couple of months ago using sbcl. 08:30:49 :/ 08:31:22 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 08:31:46 *|3b|* wouldn't expect loading an sbcl binary with clisp to work very well 08:31:56 -!- theos is now known as Guest46620 08:33:05 -!- leifw [~user@pool-108-27-202-11.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:21 leifw [~user@pool-108-27-202-11.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:52 The mix up of sbcl and clisp seems to cause problems... and confuses me as a beginner even more. A couple of months ago, when I had no intention to learn lisp I didn't care that I used sbcl to compile stumpwm. But now I want to learn lisp and don't want to depend on a non-copylefted lisp. So I wanted to go with clisp. The problem is, that I can't compile stumpwm with clisp right now and I need stumpwm to work. 08:34:52 -!- Guest46620 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:35:00 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:35:01 -!- cryptic [~cryptic@pool-96-246-91-191.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:01 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:06 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.16.106] has joined #lisp 08:35:20 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:22 cryptic [~cryptic@pool-96-246-91-191.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:47 oh boy 08:35:55 lufu: you do not need to "depend" on sbcl if you just use it. 08:36:04 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:36:06 lufu: are you brainwashed or what? 08:36:44 <|3b|> SBCL is mostly public domain, so you are free to GPL your copy if you really want to 08:37:03 Two months ago someone on the stumpwm mailing list wrote that he compiled stumpwm with clisp. Today I asked him how he did that and what he told me was exactly what I did... only that he uses BSD and clisp with thread support. 08:37:22 stassats: Watch your language. 08:37:25 lufu: "someone" is not here, it seems. 08:37:36 how many times should i repeat that stumpwm doesn't need threads? 08:37:37 lufu: maybe you want to go to that mailing list and inquire there. 08:37:45 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:38:00 H4ns: I guess you are right. 08:38:15 lufu: it just seems that you fell victim of FSF-propaganda 08:38:16 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 08:38:17 <|3b|> lufu: we can't give very good advice from vague descriptions of problems you don't understand 08:38:19 lufu: be aware that most active users in this channel use sbcl or clozure cl and are not receptive of your feelings regarding copyleft. 08:38:36 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.135.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:55 -!- cfy` [~cfy@218.75.16.106] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:14 people use things here based on quality, not license or philosophy 08:39:29 stassats: hah! 08:39:42 just out of curiosity, why is that? I mean if you're assuming that stuff that makes money off of lisp would be running server side, so it's a non-issue, right? 08:40:05 cornihilio: let's not discuss that 08:40:11 it has been beaten to death 08:40:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:16 twice. 08:40:21 if only! 08:40:23 haha okay. 08:40:46 I encountered same problem using stumpwm: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13174207/cannot-use-small-keyboard-to-input-digit 08:40:56 I seriously don't get why some people here go crazy because I want to use clisp. If you can't help, just don't say anything regarding my request. 08:41:14 <|3b|> lufu: because it doesn't work? 08:41:29 well, you're been helped, you just don't want to listen 08:41:30 <|3b|> lufu: also, the reasoning for using it anyway was a bit odd 08:41:37 lufu: clisp + stumpwm is the best combination , i like it 08:41:42 you didn't even tell us what the error is 08:41:45 |3b|: Well, it seems to work for some people. 08:41:49 lufu: nobody will be able to help you if you don't want to help yourself 08:42:00 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-190-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:42:15 can we stop using "i" and "you" for five minutes? thanks. 08:42:41 well, some people tried to help 08:42:45 H4ns: "me" and "u" instead? 08:42:56 u r making fun of me! 08:43:04 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 08:43:15 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:43:25 nobody here using stumpwm ?! 08:43:29 sw2wolf: Did you compile clisp using quicklisp? Which OS do you use? 08:43:50 *|3b|* didn't know quicklisp could compile clisp 08:44:13 lufu: clisp with threaded support is installed from FreeBSD ports 08:44:47 lufu: stumpwm is installed from QuickLisp 08:44:53 Well, I mean using quicklisp instead of installing the dependancies from the package manager (in my case apt-get), |3b|. 08:45:21 sw2wolf: I see. Thank you for your answer. 08:45:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:45:36 lufu: welcome 08:46:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:46:39 but wait, FreeBSD is not copy-left! 08:47:09 stassats: stop that crap 08:47:15 stassats: Other people might have other reasons for using clisp than I have. Deal with it. 08:47:22 sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 08:47:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-99-97.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:47:58 <|3b|> lufu: just to make sure, you are aware sbcl has a less restrictive license than clisp, right? 08:48:13 and more people use it for testing their software 08:48:33 <|3b|> lufu: and if you want help, can you please describe exactly what you are doing, and provide exact error messages (preferable in a pastebin or someting if more than 1 line) 08:48:42 |3b|: I know that clisp preserves freedom, yeah. 08:48:51 m| 08:49:23 <|3b|> lufu: are you worried that you might accidentally make your own code proprietary if you don't use a GPL lisp? 08:49:39 |3b|: I'll do that. But I guess I should ask the stumpwm mailing list anyway. 08:50:32 all this time, and no actual error message, but we got to know your political views instead 08:51:12 <|3b|> stassats: well, arguably we are responsible for as much of the political stuff being discussed as not 08:51:34 stassats: Well, who is to blame for that? That's for sure not 100% my fault (and not completely yours either). 08:52:12 <|3b|> lufu: lack of detail on the problem is mostly your fault though :) 08:52:20 |3b|: True. 08:52:26 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:52:29 No matter what you said, clisp is best impl. when used with stumpwm as i know 08:52:44 sw2wolf: in what regard? 08:53:08 But actually I didn't really want help with my problem. I wanted to know how to compile clisp with thread. 08:53:09 clisp produces small image whic is fast and stable 08:53:18 <|3b|> lufu: also, are you planning on developing stumpwm itself? 08:53:31 <|3b|> lufu: compile with --with-threads? (or something like that) 08:53:48 yes 08:54:53 |3b|: I would like to, but have to learn to program first in order to be able to do that. But yeah... I would really like to do that one day. 08:55:14 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13174207/cannot-use-small-keyboard-to-input-digit makes me suspect the quality of clx 08:55:15 <|3b|> probably better to start out learning in a separate lisp image then anyway 08:57:33 leo2007` [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:59:08 -!- leo2007` [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.90.1] 09:03:06 Okay... so I'm on GNU/Linux Debian (sid). I use the clisp that comes with it and try to compile stumpwm. I used this https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Stumpwm#With_SBCL_.28recommended.2C_will_run_faster.29 instruction but used clisp instead of sbcl. (There is also a plain "With Clisp" instruction below but I wanted to use quicklisp.) When I do "make" I run into problems, see http://paste.lisp.org/display/134060. 09:04:48 so, your clisp doesn't have xlib 09:05:00 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:05:10 lufu: (ql:quickload :clx) first 09:05:29 sw2wolf: clisp comes with its own clx 09:05:59 but, you need to install it 09:06:00 but i don't use clisp, so i have no idea how 09:06:42 stassats: i use clx from quicklisp to build a running stumpwm as below: 09:07:02 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07:03 (ql:quickload :clx) (ql:quickload :stumpwm) 09:07:08 (ext:saveinitmem "stumpwm" :init-function (lambda () (stumpwm:stumpwm) (ext:quit)) 09:07:08 :executable t :keep-global-handlers t :norc nil :documentation "The StumpWM Executable") 09:07:09 well, good for you 09:07:14 <|3b|> apt-get install clisp-module-clx ? 09:07:27 lufu: try doing so, ap... what 3b said 09:07:42 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 09:07:42 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:12 I built stumpwm on debian squeeze using the same steps 09:08:46 of course, the clisp is built with thread support by myself 09:09:08 sw2wolf: I thought I did that. Just tried it again... doesn't help. Are you sure you didn't install something via apt-get (or aptitude) in extension? 09:09:19 mutu [d97653be@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.118.83.190] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 lufu: did you run apt-get install clisp-module-clx? 09:09:34 lufu: in debian squeeze, i am sure 09:10:33 lufu: As i said i built clisp from source not using apt-get 09:11:29 it is clisp 2.49 with thread support 09:11:52 *|3b|* suspects building by hand installs the clx module 09:12:23 clx is installed using (ql:quickload :clx) 09:12:41 no it's not 09:12:53 "small image" is that really (within observed practical usage) a concern in 2012, in general? 09:13:27 stassats: I just gave it a try and it seems not to help. Which seems odd to me. Here is the error message: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134061 09:13:35 RenJuan: well, people are unreasonable at all times 09:13:55 I guess I have to install some other stuff via apt-get or try clisp with threads. 09:14:07 threads has nothing to do with it 09:14:17 true that, my observation is the typical lisp has a default image of a few 10s of MB 09:14:17 man, how many times do i have to utter it? 09:14:23 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:14:34 stassats: A few billion times I guess. 09:14:47 <|3b|> yeah, more threads won't make it find XLIB 09:14:54 not much in an era where most machines have 2, 4, 8 GB, etc. 09:15:39 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:15:45 *p_l* is still concerned about small images 09:15:55 but that doesn't stop me from using SBCL 09:16:02 meaning like K vs MB? 09:16:24 *|3b|* wants small executables, but large images are OK 09:16:42 RenJuan: 40MB, quite recently, meant "go for dinner in different town" for me 09:16:43 sbcl default is 40mb innit? 09:16:50 <|3b|> (in other words, i want executables that aren't full images) 09:17:19 |3b|: me too 09:17:32 but for many tasks SBCL is okay as it is 09:18:11 <|3b|> yeah, i'd probably use sbcl to run whatever cross-compiler i used to make my small executables :) 09:18:37 lufu: you need to put (require "clx") somewhere into the makefile 09:19:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:19:44 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 09:20:00 lufu: change the clisp_INFOOPTS line by adding it before (require 'asdf) 09:20:10 *RenJuan* just learned something about this channel. 09:21:08 sbcl supports compressed cores, so it's about 15MB 09:22:29 less on 32-bits 09:24:23 I think we should stress out what's in the 40MB image and why it's a good thing to have it around in the end for most applications 09:24:54 the suffering ones are certainly the shell scriptish ones, but those should be distributed as sources as shell scripts are already, right? 09:25:02 tic_ [~tic@c83-248-1-231.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:25:30 dim: unless we are talking about "end user" applications 09:25:45 not the server-side or "enterprisey" stuff 09:25:56 well my main concern would be my pgloader application 09:26:03 would that be an "end user" application? 09:26:18 stassats: (require 'clx) or really (require "clx")? 09:26:24 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:26:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.177.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:26:30 dim: what does it do? 09:26:31 lufu: real-really "clx" 09:26:42 won't work otherwise 09:27:11 p_l: http://packages.debian.org/sid/pgloader loads flat data files (csv and the like) in PostgreSQL 09:27:51 well, that sounds like something that people would accept longer d/l times, but is small enough for it to be annoying 09:28:03 currently written in python, used to be written in tcl before I took over the project 7 years ago, I envision CL for the next version where I want/need efficient concurrency and some processing pipelines etc 09:28:21 exactly, a 40MB binary for pgloader would be a problem I think 09:28:24 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:28:26 dim: I figure you could get quite small image with ECL for this 09:28:47 it's using 4,644.0 kB nowadays, including python bytecode 09:28:56 dim: and does that include python runtime? 09:29:00 and libs? 09:29:14 well the other trick is to ship the source code in the package, because it sure doesn't include python dependencies 09:29:18 i.e. a complete self-standing executable takes how much archivved? 09:29:25 thing is python comes pre-installed with about any OS 09:29:43 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:50 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:29:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:29:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:30:02 dim: till you have to deal with python2 vs. python3, the fact that it's not actually preinstalled in many places, and all is lost if someone is running windows ;) 09:30:29 that's a pretty good summary of why I'm considering a switch to CL 09:31:08 add in bad performances and crappy threading 09:31:09 still, I figure starting the developement on SBCL/CCL and then making sure it can be also compiled with clisp and ecl will do a lot for smaller d/l size 09:31:12 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:41 well the threading only works for code portions that are not doing IO, which in the case of pgloader (read from file, push to PostgreSQL) is not happening that much 09:32:21 p_l: I begun using CCL and intend to test with SBCL too, yes 09:32:30 well, there's GIL... anything not done by C extension in Python is single-threaded ;) 09:32:44 and I think the debian package would just depend on sbcl or common-lisp-controler and compile at install anyway 09:32:56 dim: I'd be wary of such dependence 09:33:07 debian packages, while done in good faith... weren't the best system 09:33:16 well in fact I just say to other OS that they need to install SBCL or CCL to get to be using pgloader, and that's about it 09:33:31 or you can deploy a complete application, compressed 09:34:35 -!- copec [copec@166-70-129-209.ip.unaen.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:34:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:35:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:36:59 now that I think about it, in the case of pgloader on windows, users already have to get python installed all by themselves before getting to run pgloader 09:37:20 copec [copec@166.70.129.209] has joined #lisp 09:37:29 what would be different in CL really? install CCL/SBCL rather than some Python distribution for windows, that's about it 09:37:33 bniels [~niels@p4FD6D37B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:59 dim: there were problems with how stuff would be loaded etc. 09:38:03 Just mention, ECL canot run stumpwm perfectly 09:38:05 fuun 09:38:17 sw2wolf: did you report the bug to either stumpwm or ECL maintainers? 09:38:37 stassats: It still complains about xlib. :/ 09:38:39 both ABCL and ECL teams are working hard on bridging such issues 09:38:41 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 09:38:59 p_l: i found it from googling and somebody has reported 09:39:00 lufu: can you just start clisp and run (require "clx")? 09:39:54 I did try to build a small binary with ECL for a stupid CL example project using hunchentoot and I remember that failing badly (quicklisp couldn't install some hunchentoot dependencies on ECL), but I would have to try again before reporting anything serious here 09:39:58 p_l: ECLer think it is CLX problem :) 09:40:30 stassats: It loads some file and prints a T at the end... this is good, right? 09:40:35 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.81.83] has joined #lisp 09:41:33 lufu: from /usr/lib/clisp-2.49/...? 09:42:13 stassats: Yes. 09:42:27 can you annotate your paste with the new run of make? 09:42:29 I have tasted ECL,CCL ,SBCL and CLISP using stumpwm and clx from quicklisp, all works exept ECL which produced the smallest image but not running 09:45:20 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host172.190-229-166.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:45:23 now stumpwm+clisp is my everyday desktop, thanks for such a great software 09:46:24 -!- sw2wolf is now known as sw2wolf{away} 09:46:46 -!- sw2wolf{away} [~czsq888@171.212.254.103] has left #lisp 09:49:08 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.81.83] has left #lisp 09:50:04 stassats: I just saw that running ./configure reverts my addition of (require "clx") to the Makefile. Therefore the result is the same as before. 09:50:22 stassats, actually no people are not unreasonable "at all times", that's an overreaching which itself is unreasonable 09:50:33 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xyruffikmafmbpkj] has joined #lisp 09:50:58 RenJuan: that wasn't said to stir a discussion 09:51:05 lufu: well, there you go then 09:51:19 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:42 lufu: but if you really want to be able to run configure, you can just modify Makefile.in 09:51:45 right but I assented to a counterfactual in a public forum, needed to correct that 09:52:02 you are just being unreasonable 09:52:10 (ha-ha) 09:52:22 RenJuan: http://xkcd.com/386/ 09:52:32 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:54:12 -!- mutu [d97653be@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.118.83.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:54:22 *cryptic* just discovered that everyone of his professor's powerpoint slides/examples/diagrams/homework assignments/etc. is plagiarized from AIMA 09:54:34 unfortunately, the semester's just about over 09:54:47 and that wasn't an assigned book for the course 09:55:30 but it was clearly referenced at the beginning? 09:55:40 never even referenced 09:56:01 yep that qualifies as plagary 09:56:11 plagiary? 09:56:34 PAIP was our textbook 09:56:36 was the course bad? if not, what is the problem? 09:56:41 horrible class 09:57:27 would it have been better if the book was referenced in the beginning? 09:57:39 no, it just would've been profoundly easier 09:57:55 I could read that testbook in a weekend and would easily have a 100 in the class 09:58:00 stassats: Thanks for the hint... unfortunately make still misses xlib. (http://paste.lisp.org/display/134062 -- sorry for not-annotating... figured out how that works the second after I pasted this.) 09:58:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:58:30 lufu: did you modify Makefile.in? 09:58:34 cryptic: time to use your other career. 09:58:48 haha 09:58:48 but if you want to just build it, just modify the already generated makefile and be done with it 09:59:29 lufu: no, wait 09:59:58 stassats: I did and that works... so the one line in Makefile really says 'clisp_INFOOPTS=-K full -on-error exit -x "(require "clx") (require 'asdf)...' and stays that way after configure. 10:00:00 lufu: that's the wrong set of options 10:00:27 lufu: modify make-image.lisp by adding #+clisp(require "clx") in the beginning 10:00:46 nan_ [~user@46.197.116.88] has joined #lisp 10:00:53 stassats: Okay. Should I revert the change in Makefile.in too? 10:01:11 no, they are good, just only useful for manual generation 10:01:38 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:01:38 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:01:38 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:01:39 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:12 and you can send a patch to stumpwm 10:06:53 stumpwm active development? ohh. 10:07:29 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:05 tic_: weren't you resolved on using a longer nickname? 10:08:35 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 10:08:53 stassats, I was, thanks. Forgot to update my config. 10:08:54 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 10:08:55 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 10:08:55 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:08:56 -!- tic_ is now known as mikaelj 10:09:36 Well, now I get at least a different error message. Here is the link: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134062#1. Note that running ./configure reverts make-image.lisp to it's previous state (so the #+clisp(require "clx") at the beginning is gone). 10:10:01 now everybody is wondering "who is this mikaelj fellow?" 10:10:27 lufu: quoting 10:10:58 \"clx\" 10:11:05 stassats, bah 10:11:11 stassats, you knew! 10:11:30 Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:31 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.81.83] has joined #lisp 10:11:48 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@109.151.246.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-151-0-116-53.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:13:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-151-0-116-53.vodafone.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:13:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:15:10 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:10 stassats: Applying that change to make-image.lisp seems not to help. However, I also did that in Makfile.in and that seemed to help. Now I can compile stumpwm without getting an error message. 10:16:57 well, of course it's not for make-image.lisp! aren't you reading what the errors say? 10:18:10 Unfortunately there is a difference between reading and understanding. 10:18:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:19:56 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:20:09 I'll give the new binary a try and report back. 10:21:13 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.133.116] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24:12 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:26:36 -!- pnkbst [~user@unaffiliated/pnkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27:34 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 10:30:14 how out appropriate is AIMA today? 10:30:24 err, how appropriate, rather 10:30:31 it's not really a topic 10:30:48 but the material contained therein, is it still relevant? 10:31:10 in modern database design, machine learning, etc. 10:31:12 not for #lisp 10:31:55 one could argue that it's written for lisp, and thus topical in #lisp 10:32:12 no, it's not 10:32:37 agree, it's not just looked at the TOC, it's a cultural overview 10:32:56 what do you mean? 10:33:04 it's about artificial intelligence, not about CL 10:33:13 a rigourous curriculum wouldnt have such a course 10:33:55 stassats: does that opinion extent to PAIP as well? 10:34:02 you don't know what a "cultural overview" in the context of a college course/textbook is? 10:34:12 cryptic: no, PAIP is about CL, not about artificial intelligence 10:35:12 it stands in opposition to a real/hard course about some specific working area, like say search 10:35:14 stassats: I find that fascinating, since both books were written by Norvig and considerably overlap 10:35:36 sure the same author could do both kinds 10:35:37 RenJuan: ah, we refer to those as "survey courses" 10:36:14 there's a big market as a result of the general failure of primary and secondary education, the ignorance of the masses etc. 10:36:39 a problem that has become exacerbated in the US relative to 30 or 40 years ago 10:36:42 PAIP uses early artificial intelligence problems to teach you common lisp, yes 10:38:10 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:37 survey, cultural overview, whatever. Dummy down is the essence of it, usually rife with distortions, misleading and obsolete info, etc. 10:40:44 RenJuan: I couldn't agree more. this prof "covered" machine learning in 30 minutes 10:41:10 can you discuss this in #ai or somewhere? 10:41:49 stassats: is it really that big of a problem? the channel was dead 10:41:58 let's discuss bulgaria or whereever the fuck 10:42:08 cryptic: yes, it's a big problem 10:42:23 where, unlike the US it isn't in the middle of the night 10:45:19 you don't appear to be a chanop stassats and yet you act like one 10:45:33 so sue me 10:46:12 i'll enjoin somewhere in any lawsuit 10:46:22 so anyway cryptic, if both your parents had been computer scientists, it's unlikely you take such a course, maybe a different school too 10:46:25 i have nothing to lose 10:46:30 i express the unwritten rules that any regular would agree with 10:47:09 oh, I figured stassats was an op 10:47:12 but i don't think they allow laptops in prison cells 10:47:49 I must be the only actual attorney in here :( 10:47:59 (cons laptop prison) 10:48:56 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:49:27 really, you have a JD? 10:49:41 but really.. i am a prisoner to my laptop 10:49:56 yeah RenJuan 10:50:11 <|3b|> there is #lispcafe if you want to talk about something other than CL with people from #lisp 10:50:13 meant cryptic, passed the bar and all that stuff? 10:50:21 yup 10:50:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 10:50:26 someone asked for a chanop? 10:50:29 i guess you're right, people can't be civil unless you can threaten them with authority 10:50:36 <|3b|> (you can use the relative population of the 2 channels to determine how many people want to see the non lisp content) 10:51:02 take off-topic things elsewhere, please. "The channel is not active right now" is not an acceptable excuse for talking about things 10:51:19 (cons x y) 10:51:19 and please be polite to people who make that request, even if they don't happen to be listed as chanops 10:51:30 some people are actively reading the channel, waiting for an interesting lisp discussion 10:51:40 Krystof, hiya 10:51:45 so, if nobody is talking, doesn't mean that nobody is disturbed by off-topic discussions 10:51:47 to be honest, I'm beginning to understand why I sometimes read that #lisp is hostile 10:52:12 well hostile yes, but the point is valdi 10:52:15 *valid 10:52:37 hostile and prolly bitter 10:52:51 <|3b|> hostile, bitter and on-topic 10:52:57 you can discuss this in #meta-lisp 10:53:19 galdor: (print "it's no more hostile than ##c") 10:53:53 I don't know, I'm not following ##c, and I am not even sure it's worth it to hang out on #lisp 10:54:05 there are nice people, but a lot of comp.lang.lisp-style ones 10:54:22 especially since it's publicly logged 10:54:27 -!- RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-190-243.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 10:55:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.90.1] 10:55:30 *zophy* can only view #lisp as a reflection in his polished shield 10:55:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:40 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 Thra11 [~thrall@29.192.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:45 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:56 what is libpq ? 10:58:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:23 PostgreSQL client library in C, implementing the pq protocol 10:58:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:59:05 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:59:28 H4ns: why does (setf (if (if ... not work when (if (if (setf ...) (setf ...))) works? 10:59:54 sw2wolf [~sw2wolf@110.185.19.140] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 why (- 5 6) produce one result and (- 6 5) another? 11:00:49 stassats: but one if deep they produce the same results 11:01:00 why does a nested if change the result type? 11:01:23 cornihilio: setf is a macro 11:01:27 you're just confused, (setf (if ...) x) cannot work 11:01:43 working: https://gist.github.com/4214708 broken: https://gist.github.com/4214736 11:01:45 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:49 cornihilio: setf looks at its argument and tries to get a setf-expanding for that. there exists a setf expander for symbols, there does not exist one for forms whose car is cl:if 11:01:57 cornihilio: setf works on places, (if ...) is not a place. 11:02:40 earlier I was suggested: instead of (if .. (setf x ..) (setf x ..)) you can write (setf x (if .. .. ..)) 11:02:41 cornihilio: are you talking about (if foo (setf a ...) (setf b ...)) or, as your paste seems to say, (setf foo (if ...)) 11:02:46 because the later should work 11:02:54 cornihilio: and that should work. 11:03:02 and how is this not-working manifests itself? 11:03:08 define not-working 11:03:10 what error? 11:03:42 besides, you shouldn't use nested ifs 11:03:42 it's really weird... the print statements in the correct areas are triggered, but html-links the accumulator is not being properly set and remains nil 11:04:06 stassats: what should I be using? 11:04:16 well, it'll be reset to nil on each iteration when link is null 11:04:20 cornihilio: cond 11:04:33 hahaha that's right. jeez. 11:04:37 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:04:54 cornihilio: i can't run your code to test, but it certainyl looks right. 11:04:58 thank you for pointing that out! 11:05:14 and (not (eql link nil)) == link 11:05:40 ah, wait 11:05:51 if (not (eql link nil)) your second code will set html-links to nil 11:05:59 while your first paste will do nothing at all in that case. 11:06:09 that's what i just said 11:11:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-194.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:13:08 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:13:12 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.94] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 11:13:35 also, what does undefined alien function mean?: https://gist.github.com/4214800 11:13:54 for some reason it's being triggered against github, but not google.com 11:14:00 cornihilio: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134064 11:14:01 I'm guessing it's an ssl issue? 11:14:40 "" in member shouldn't be there 11:15:19 yes, you need ssl libraries 11:17:21 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.104.175.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:18:06 stassats: uh that's not printing any lists though 11:18:22 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:22 why would it? 11:18:51 haha cause I was too used to my function printing them out 11:18:53 thank you! 11:19:02 well, you can just print its result 11:19:05 I was thinking I'd have to use macros to unmangle that mess of ocmparisons 11:20:39 cornihilio: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134064#1 11:22:32 cornihilio: and polished: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134064#2 11:23:17 eh, (cxml-stp:attribute-value a "src" "http") should be (cxml-stp:attribute-value a "src") 11:23:54 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:02 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-24-131-173-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:06 Codynyx_ [~cody@c-24-131-173-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:09 stassats: now that's not even my code at all anymore :P 11:25:25 what does this error mean though?: https://gist.github.com/4214857 11:25:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:25:58 I don't understand your use of multiple-value-bind or puri, but I think this is related to multiple-value-bind, right? 11:26:03 well, i did change the lambda-list, it needs to be called (crawl "url") now 11:26:47 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has joined #lisp 11:26:51 there's no reason to make keyword parameters for things which are required 11:27:05 okay now it works, but now it sin't printing anything out :( 11:27:29 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:27:47 you can just do (format t "~{~A~%~}" (crawl url)) 11:28:58 dude you turned my shit into something crazy awesome 11:29:32 and multiple-value-bind is needed so that you can get the actual uri, because it can be redirected by the server 11:30:35 b 11:30:37 b 11:31:02 what made you use puri? 11:31:44 to make /x/ to http://google.com/x/ 11:32:11 ah... I was doing that myself 11:32:29 err... one last question (for a while at least) 11:32:29 not reliably 11:32:49 how would I download js scripts in the page as well? 11:33:23 I was trying to set it up for script and src, but that was not working. should that be working, and I did something stupid, or do you happen to know offhand if I have to use another method? 11:34:42 no, i don't know 11:37:05 lufu [~user@5.254.129.153] has joined #lisp 11:37:56 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.104.175.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:38:33 stassats: thank you so much! now to go dig myself into more holes 11:39:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:10 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has joined #lisp 11:40:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:44:48 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.129.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:04 mutu [d976538d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.118.83.141] has joined #lisp 11:49:12 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:17 tcr1 [~tcr@smb-rsycl-04.wifihubtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:19 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:43 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@smb-rsycl-04.wifihubtelecom.net] has left #lisp 12:00:58 where in the clhs can i find information about string literals? 12:01:45 what kind of information? 12:02:22 You may try http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/16_.htm 12:03:41 ecraven: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_de.htm 12:03:43 AWizzArd: thanks, great, just found that 12:03:55 ecraven: (found through master index -> ") 12:03:57 is there a way to encode a newline in a string without specifying an actual literal newline? 12:04:05 no 12:04:07 something like \n in other languages 12:04:15 anything not in the standard, but implemented by most lisps? 12:04:28 no 12:04:31 they are not allowed to do so 12:04:39 Via format you could do it 12:04:44 minion: cl-interpol 12:04:45 cl-interpol: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-interpol 12:04:48 And you could run such formats during compile time. 12:05:01 lufu [~user@5.254.133.116] has joined #lisp 12:05:04 A reader macro might do :) 12:05:16 we are discussing an s-expression format for an application, and it would be great if that would work on elisp, cl and schemes. but embedding literal newlines is .. not great :) 12:05:23 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 hm.. so we could just generate \n (assuming that works on all other systems), and tell CL users to use cl-interpol for reading? 12:06:02 #lit"Hi!\nHow are you?\n" 12:06:31 ecraven: that's not a great idea 12:06:50 stassats: what other options are there :) 12:06:55 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:07:03 not use \n 12:08:28 or don't use the CL reader 12:09:00 which is not suited for anything but reading cl code 12:10:05 stassats: Turns out that I overlooked an error message and it sill doesn't work. I'll leave that matter be for now, as this stuff is quite time consuming and I have an exam the day after tomorrow. However, I want to thank you for trying so hard to help me (this applies also for the other people that tried to help). 12:12:55 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:14:16 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:48 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:41 -!- orivej [~orivej@broadband-95-84-171-19.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:23:16 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-32-163.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:26:45 Bardamu [~Bardamu@178.33.158.40] has joined #lisp 12:26:46 Hi 12:27:08 I have a problem with the function write sometimes I have " " " which appears 12:27:13 I use clisp 12:27:28 describe your problem 12:28:11 when I run the function, it has to give me : FUITE de -A1 de (3,1) à (3,2) 12:28:18 to print me that 12:28:38 perhaps you want to use PRINC instead? 12:28:40 but sometimes it prints me: FUITE" de ""-A1"" de ""("3","1")"" ""à ""("3","2")" 12:30:05 <|3b|> or use ~a instead of ~s if you are using FORMAT 12:30:25 <|3b|> nevermind, missed that WRITE was specified 12:30:55 ~a what is it ? 12:31:07 a format directive 12:31:16 so, did PRINC solve it? 12:31:35 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.249.230] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 I didn't try I was looking at l1sp what kind of function is it 12:32:07 Bardamu: in C you can do printf("%d numbers", 5); ==> the %d is comparable to the ~A 12:32:29 what? 12:33:06 AWizzArd: ok I understood now 12:33:13 %d is nothing like ~a 12:33:16 ~a is an atom 12:33:22 and ~s a string 12:33:29 no, ~a is "aesthetic" 12:33:40 why read up on it when you can also guess? 12:34:04 <|3b|> if you want to stay with WRITE, you could pass it :ESCAPE NIL and maybe :READABLY NIL 12:34:21 that's what princ does, so why do it yourself? 12:34:36 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.81.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:34:42 pleas don't fight ^^ 12:34:47 <|3b|> to avoid learning new functions? :) 12:35:17 learning new parameters should be hard too then 12:35:33 <|3b|> true 12:35:59 and learning about princ basically means learning about write anyhow 12:36:37 -!- sw2wolf [~sw2wolf@110.185.19.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:36:50 <|3b|> possibly binding *print-escape* and *print-readably* would be better then, no parameters or functions to learn :) 12:37:09 The nice thing about studying CL:WRITE is that you've read the basics of a pretty printer before. 12:37:30 |3b|: well, actually, the most hard part is know all those print-controlling variables 12:37:41 knowing 12:40:30 yes it's very difficult , for me who is a beginner ^^ 12:40:59 thanks for the function princ , it's working 12:41:10 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:28 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping 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seconds] 13:54:37 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:01 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:55:04 -!- QuickSilver__ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:58:44 ebw [~user@f051104218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:48 aquarius_ [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 13:58:58 -!- aquarius_ is now known as skanev 13:59:17 What is the suggested library for running shell commands from lisp with easy input/output-handling at the moment? 14:01:53 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:01:56 http://www.cliki.net/inferior-shell 14:02:02 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-1-179.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:02:13 That's what I'd suggest. Available via quicklisp as well. 14:03:28 I take a look. Thanks 14:05:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 14:05:55 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 14:08:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:09:28 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 14:11:42 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:12 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:12:32 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has joined #lisp 14:17:55 sulrich [~sulrich@174.136.111.10] has joined #lisp 14:20:32 hmm how come slime-load-hook is never defvar'ed anywhere, is that intentional? 14:20:41 that is on emacs side 14:20:55 -!- sulrich [~sulrich@174.136.111.10] has left #lisp 14:21:16 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 14:22:04 -!- Raptum [~Raptum@168.8.27.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:38 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:26:34 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 slime-load-hook isn't a variable (as far as i know) 14:28:54 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.17.196] has joined #lisp 14:30:44 okay I'm an idiot batting my head against the keyboard... how do I make this right?: https://gist.github.com/4215800 14:30:55 I see it in slime sources 14:31:04 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 bitonic [~user@dyn1197-182.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:32:21 maxm-: it's a hook right? just a symbol you pass to run-hook and add-hook 14:32:50 (hooks have names, but they aren't the values of variables like a defvar would be) 14:32:58 (ok, they kinda-sorta are, but not really) 14:33:14 afaik emacs's hook are just list of functions 14:33:30 segv-: just tested yea seems add-hook adds the symbol if its not there (and it start showing up in f1 v list of variables too) 14:33:49 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:34:27 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:36:48 cornihilio: what package needs to be loaded? stp? 14:37:13 cxml-stp? 14:39:49 cornihilio: are you going to use element-resource-handler in a cond? 14:39:54 cornihilio: it's a macro, you don't need to quote the argument (or, if you quote, you should evaluate it in the macro) 14:40:11 cornihilio: 1. (loop for (x . y) in '((1 . 2) (3 . 4)) ....) might be helpful. 2. You need another loop. Your current one just loops once, over 'a and '((("a" . "href") ...)) 14:40:12 (what it returns doesn't look like valid lisp) 14:40:25 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-100.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:03 oh wait, but your macro takes two arguments, so you're not even calling it right. 14:41:29 QuickSilver__ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:47 cornihilio: not to mention that you don't need a macro for this 14:42:50 what I'm getting out of this is I should go read a lot more about macros 14:43:04 okay, well thank you, at least I know it's not a minor issue 14:43:14 cornihilio: no, you should leave macros until you know what you are doing 14:44:04 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:44:06 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 14:44:09 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:44:12 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:44:37 jdz: that's true, but I'm pretty sure doing tough stuff is the only way I'm going to force myself to become competent quickly 14:44:39 Ynjh [~Daisy@95.209.104.175.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 14:44:49 tough for me, of course 14:45:04 cornihilio: If you think you need to write a macro think again :) 14:45:06 cornihilio: i'm sure that's a sure way to confuse yourself, not learn anything 14:45:39 -!- leifw [~user@pool-108-27-202-11.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:46 cornihilio: If you still think you need a macro Let over Lambda or Graham's On Lisp may help. I recommend the former but it's not available for free. 14:47:10 hm? Last time I checked only the first three chapters were free. 14:47:13 http://www.letoverlambda.com/textmode.cl/guest/toc 14:48:33 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:37 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.104.175.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:48:47 felideon [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has joined #lisp 14:53:19 auganov [~user@81.219.90.233] has joined #lisp 15:00:21 Hi. Has anybody managed to get ccl running on the raspberry pi? I am following Rainer's howto (http://lispm.dyndns.org/ccl) ... but when I download the ccl via svn and start armcl I get a SIGSEGV. 15:00:29 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1197-182.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:38 krrrcks: it worked for me flawlessly 15:00:47 naryl: almost the whole book is free now 15:00:57 bitonic [~user@dyn1197-182.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:00:59 krrrcks: i followed http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2012-July/013677.html 15:01:51 krrrcks: you may need to check out the specific version (r14525) if the trunk does not work right now. i've seen quite some commit activity recently and the raspi/armcl version may not be stable. 15:01:59 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:13 Ah, thanks H4ns ... I'll have a look! 15:05:08 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:20 -!- Ynjh [~Daisy@95.209.104.175.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:42 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:06:44 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@softbank126127243122.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:24 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:59 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:01 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:08 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:21:02 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:22:16 teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.69] has joined #lisp 15:23:40 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 mritz [~textual@97.65.251.170] has joined #lisp 15:25:28 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.249.230] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 15:26:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:06 Ah, that helped to rebuild the "armcl" binary. But it now complains about an too old Heap image. 15:27:57 you will need to have the runtime and the image be matching 15:28:26 look for the armcl image file, then check out the code from the same dae. or go with r14525, that works 15:29:50 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 I "updated" the working copy to the r14525 revision and then rebuild the armcl binary. 15:30:42 hey all, can lisp call an external program similar to exec() in other languages? 15:30:42 hm. that should be it. 15:31:09 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 ahungry: yes. see trivial-shell for a portability layer. all unix lisps have some proprietary interface. 15:31:23 ahungry: or inferior-shell 15:31:35 or that. maybe that is even better. 15:31:44 thanks guys 15:31:46 Would be a "svn up -r 14525 ccl"? (Since I mostly use git I forgot about the svn syntax). 15:31:51 the one from gary king should probably die in a fire. 15:32:02 lisp seems like a lot of fun so far, big step away from other languages i'm used to 15:32:08 krrrcks: i forgot myself :) 15:32:59 Joreji [~thomas@76-229.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:14 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:33:36 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-244-250.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:33:46 H4ns: But in principle ... svn for software distribution is a nice idea and the last reasonable use of svn, I think. :) 15:34:11 krrrcks: i'd much prefer git 15:34:27 but the ccl repository is tied to subversion pretty deeply :/ 15:34:41 Yeah :/ 15:34:44 H4ns: Yeah. :( 15:35:07 Well, "svn up -r " was right, I suppose. My image is the same than the one from the r14525 revision ... strange. 15:35:39 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 there is a #ccl channel, maybe someone is there to help. 15:35:44 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 H4ns: Yeah, I'll ask there... 15:37:03 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 15:39:58 -!- skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit: skanev] 15:40:03 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:40:21 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 15:40:40 aquarius_ [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 15:40:52 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:24 -!- aquarius_ is now known as skanev 15:44:05 can I tell hunchentoot that a parameter is an '(ARRAY FLOAT)? I could give my own conversion function, but there's no standard one for floats, right? 15:45:16 wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has joined #lisp 15:46:27 parse-fload would be nice in alexandria 15:46:31 *float 15:47:56 flip214: parse-number doesn't work for you? 15:47:59 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.96.49.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:19 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.184] has joined #lisp 15:48:42 ah, didn't find that. 15:50:00 -!- nan_ [~user@46.197.116.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:07 H4ns: Now it works. Going back to the trunk and rebuild the kernel suddenly now works. 15:50:11 H4ns: THanks for your help! 15:50:20 because it's not in clhs ... but I've got it, thanks. 15:50:47 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 impaktor [~user@b2.thep.lu.se] has joined #lisp 15:59:00 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-244-250.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:04:37 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 16:04:44 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1197-182.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:11 bitonic [~user@dyn1197-182.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:06:03 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 16:08:04 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 16:08:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:09:17 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:50 myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:10:33 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:05 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:07 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:36 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:12:35 are there libraries for getting html/xml from websites? 16:13:01 huh ? 16:13:22 you already get html/xml from websites..... 16:13:31 wicked_shell: drakma. 16:13:42 you mean for writing/editing/designing ? 16:13:50 i want to write a program that downloads whether forcasts from different sites and compares them so that i don't have to argue with ppl about how bad they are 16:13:52 for a server..... 16:14:37 should be good practice ^^ 16:14:56 wicked_shell: dramka to get the html, closure html to parse it 16:14:58 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 16:15:39 i'll check them out, thx.. also for loading stuff with emacs by default should i just write the system name as require in the .emacs? 16:16:14 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:16:38 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16:49 not .emacs, .ccl-init.lisp or .sbclrc or whatever 16:16:59  16:17:01 (.emacs is read by emacs, not your lisp) 16:17:12 ok 16:17:28 just thought `cuz it loads sbcl 16:17:54 more or less, the slime mode (for emacs) calls sbcl (as a seperate process) 16:18:05 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:18:08 and sbcl loads its ~/.sbclrc 16:18:49 clisp seems better than sbcl for the interactive mode (it supports my vi style readline mode), however I hear sbcl mentioned more than clisp, is it better? 16:19:39 the gurus told me to learn both, clisp is not compiled (afaik) so should be easyer to debug 16:19:47 ahungry: clisp has readline builtin, that's a plus (unless you're using slime in which case the question is moot) 16:20:00 use "rlwrap sbcl" if you want readline in sbcl 16:20:12 but, recommended is to use slime, in which case, readline is irrelevant. 16:20:15 clisp starts up faster and uses a little less memory 16:20:47 also someone told me that it has more web libraries? 16:20:50 but, sbcl has a better compiler (sbcl has better quality, ccl is faster (i think that's the curent state of things)) 16:20:54 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:21:08 wicked_shell: they're both common lisps, so there shouldn't be a big difference 16:21:33 shouldn't be compiled sbcl be faster after it is compiled? 16:21:36 faster to compile, you mean. 16:21:41 not faster compiled code 16:21:42 What is slime and where does one get it from? I use arch linux for desktop and centos for server, I notice centos only has clisp (no sbcl) and arch has both, but no slime in the package manager 16:21:47 ahungry: if you have to ask the question, then the answer probably is: it doesn't matter. 16:21:50 just started with lisp obviously 16:21:50 yeah, thats what i wonder 16:22:21 foom: Well, for using sbcl in the terminal (without slime) rlwrap is a poor workaround. Use linedit in such cases. 16:22:28 ahungry: i'm on arch too, just download emacs and slime from extra 16:22:29 ahungry:  16:22:55 sorry, i was refering to the speed of compilation not to the speed of the compiled code 16:23:16 and wicked_shell, you'd be amazed at the quality of the debug info in compiled sbcl code (but do set a high debug level) 16:23:20 so what would be the preferred choice for highend serverbased code? 16:23:41 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 arch linux aur package: "slime-cvs" 16:23:58 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-127-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 16:24:39 ad as a contrary, is there much difference for ai-games/contests? 16:24:42 (and 16:24:52 wicked_shell: i've seen that kind of code written in clisp, sbcl, ccl, lipsworks and allegro. so, i guess the answer is: it depends. 16:24:54 omg im starting to talk in parenthesis alreadyt 16:24:54 wicked_shell: no. 16:25:54 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:26:10 ok back to hacking, thx 16:27:47 -!- impaktor [~user@b2.thep.lu.se] has left #lisp 16:30:31 piko_ [~piko@ip-85-160-32-161.eurotel.cz] has joined #lisp 16:34:02 antoszka: shrug, it works for me, it's trivial, and it uses real readline. And I usually don't type a whole lot in a commandline repl anyways. 16:34:20 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:34:58 foom: It's just a bit unpredictable at times. Have a look at linedit. 16:35:10 foom: It turned out to work much better for me. 16:35:18 (and others from what I'm hearing) 16:35:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 16:35:48 After all it's integrated *in* the repl, doesn't just pipe data around the binary. 16:36:40 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 16:39:19 tiglog [~topeak@114.243.55.246] has joined #lisp 16:39:56 MrWoohoo2 [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:58 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:11 -!- tiglog [~topeak@114.243.55.246] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:27 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ubrshidfxtfgthbp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:46:46 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 16:46:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:24 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 16:57:39 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wfdbwpzrqexuqjsx] has joined #lisp 16:59:23 -!- MrWoohoo2 is now known as MrWoohoo 17:00:31 -!- piko_ [~piko@ip-85-160-32-161.eurotel.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01:05 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wfdbwpzrqexuqjsx] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:05:36 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:03 mattrepl [~mattrepl@lark.vsnet.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:09:46 echo-area [~user@123.120.224.182] has joined #lisp 17:10:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 DoctorDude [~Jake@144.26.128.58] has joined #lisp 17:11:25 -!- bniels [~niels@p4FD6D37B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 17:11:47 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 17:11:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:18 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.83.234] has joined #lisp 17:13:25 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.83.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:38 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:14:17 -!- browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.201.83.234] has quit [Client Quit] 17:14:37 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.83.234] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:15:38 jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has joined #lisp 17:16:54 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:15 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:17:37 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002df6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:30 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:21:24 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@lark.vsnet.gmu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:24:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 17:24:13 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:00 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:26:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:26:47 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has joined #lisp 17:27:41 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:30:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:11 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:32:34 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:21 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.198] has joined #lisp 17:39:07 liweinan_ [~liweinan@222.130.224.217] has joined #lisp 17:41:02 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:41:09 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.83.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:45:30 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:53 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-Mason.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:57 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 17:48:19 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 17:48:37 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 ASau [~user@176.0.202.201] has joined #lisp 17:51:03 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-39-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:27 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-68.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:39 Am I mistaken or can cl-fad only handle absolute pathnames? 17:54:04 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:54:56 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 18:05:37 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:42 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:07:57 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:44 I'd be surprized if it was the case. 18:12:11 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:27 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:14:47 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:14:59 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1197-182.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:30 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-231-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24:52 For me (cl-fad:file-exists-p (cl-fad:pathname-as-file #p"path1/path2/file.txt")) returns nil, although (pathname (concatenate 'string (sb-posix:getcwd) "/" "path1/path2/file.txt")) does exist. (SBCL here for "sb-posix" package). 18:25:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-229.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:25:20 So it doesn't use the current working dir. 18:26:11 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:58 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-231-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:27:18 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-117-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 18:28:42 edw: what is *default-pathname-defaults* 18:30:33 dlowe: Something different than (sb-posix:getcwd) .... so I have to change *default-pathname-defaults* instead of doing (sb-posix:chdir "blahbla") ? 18:30:40 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.165.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:57 easy-iPad [~easyipad@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:33:24 newbie_coder [4267ffa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.103.255.163] has joined #lisp 18:33:53 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.133.116] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:30 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:18 AeroNotix [~xeno@aatd54.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:43:55 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 18:44:11 pnkbst [~user@unaffiliated/pnkbst] has joined #lisp 18:44:12 PCChris [cyungmann_@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:22 -!- PCChris [cyungmann_@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:39 PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:48:41 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:59 It seems a little silly for sb-posix:chdir not to change both, but that's probably your issue 18:49:57 -!- PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:11 PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 kisp [~kisp@37-4-214-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 what psuedo-random number generator is used in SBCL? 18:52:47 mt19937 18:52:55 -!- DoctorDude [~Jake@144.26.128.58] has left #lisp 18:53:30 I was just reading https://spideroak.com/blog/20121205114003-exploit-information-leaks-in-random-numbers-from-python-ruby-and-php 18:54:27 -!- PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:38 PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:55:01 -!- PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:07 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:55:23 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:58:00 Blkt [~user@82.84.188.5] has joined #lisp 18:58:15 does ironclad make use of the built-in prng? 18:59:23 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 Joreji [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:34 Fade: you can use cl+ssl to get safe randoms from openssl 19:01:50 good evening everyone 19:04:44 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@113.Red-83-49-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:17 abeaumont [~abeaumont@113.Red-83-49-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:05 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:10:18 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-Mason.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:10:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:10:49 SaidinWoT [~sfrazier@66.96.251.117] has joined #lisp 19:13:44 QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:56 (setf (if ) ) is defined in clisp. It's not a standard place indeed. 19:14:17 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:54 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:02 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:26 -!- sellout is now known as Guest41388 19:17:42 -!- QuickSilver__ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:18:43 -!- Guest41388 is now known as sellout- 19:19:12 When it comes to lisp style guide, is Norvig's style guide the best? 19:19:22 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:23 I don't remember. Is there a way to keep Quicklisp quiet when quickloading? 19:19:27 It's not a citical thing, Ijust saw the article and got curious. 19:20:45 Qworkescence, I'm sure there's a way. :D 19:21:00 newbie_coder: far from it. 19:21:15 Well I know there are ways, and I can hackily do it, but I want to check if there's a good way to do it first. 19:21:53 pjb, pros and cons? what else should i look at for an alternate view? 19:21:56 newbie_coder: What's good, it's the rules embedded into emacs and slime. You've been told to use emacs, slime and paredit to program CL, that's one of the reasons: you don't have to think about the style, it's done automatically. 19:22:19 qwork, Bind the streams to the empty broadcast stream. 19:22:35 qworks, look at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/333 19:22:47 pjb, i don't like emacs 19:22:52 newbie_coder: apart from the lexical style (indentations, parentheses position, spaces), I would be quite liberal about styles. Coding styles are ludicruous! 19:23:12 Coding style rule books, I mean. 19:23:15 besides the style guide is much more about looks and formatting 19:23:23 have you ever read norvig's style guide? 19:23:39 I browsed it once. Not left an imperishable remembrance. 19:24:48 And styles change a lot, you can easily date source code from its style. Norvig has not be a CL programmers for at least ten years. 19:24:56 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:25:23 s/be/been/ s/mers/mer/ 19:28:43 i'm quite impressed from what i have read so far, but it's going to take me a good month and more months to form the habit of constantly using them. 19:28:44 pjb, CL hasn't change much in the last 10yrs either 19:28:44 newbie_coder: just look how the current code is formated, what you get from quicklisp. 19:28:44 newbie_coder: the language has not changed, but the style as evolved a little (not much in the last ten years it's true, but still. Mine has changed, and it's true for each programmer too). 19:28:44 well, formatting is just a little part of style 19:28:45 oh well, something is better than nothing, and it's the best i have found, so i'm sticking to what the masters did 19:31:09 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 19:32:41 Lived and learned from fools and from sages :) 19:33:19 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 19:35:17 /join #agi 19:43:20 gridaphobe [~user@169.228.188.47] has joined #lisp 19:44:33 bitonic [~user@dyn1196-42.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:27 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:48:02 -!- skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit: skanev] 19:48:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:50:05 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:27 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 19:51:32 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 19:51:51 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.198] has joined #lisp 19:52:27 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@63.251.54.158] has joined #lisp 19:53:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:53:46 jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has joined #lisp 19:56:00 Joreji [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 k0001 [~k0001@host148.186-125-112.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:57:55 gridapho` [~user@128.54.51.205] has joined #lisp 19:58:43 skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 19:58:54 -!- gridaphobe [~user@169.228.188.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:57 -!- gridapho` is now known as gridaphobe 20:02:20 -!- kisp [~kisp@37-4-214-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:46 francogrex [~user@109.130.48.230] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:37 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aatd54.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 20:10:49 AeroNotix [~xeno@aatd54.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:12:15 lufu [~user@5.254.129.169] has joined #lisp 20:12:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aatd54.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:14:34 snearch [~snearch@f053010244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:39 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.48.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:16:19 kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d029f34.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:45 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xyruffikmafmbpkj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:18:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:09 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:22 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0290ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:20:36 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d029f34.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:21:10 kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d029f34.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:23 -!- newbie_coder [4267ffa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.103.255.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:52 is there a portable way to seed CL random number generator with a single number? 20:29:04 prxq___ [~mommer@mnhm-590c3228.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:12 I tried with MT19937 but it didn't seem to work 20:29:22 at least not with its exported symbols... 20:29:34 -!- prxq___ [~mommer@mnhm-590c3228.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:01 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3228.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:12 wait, does it even make sense to ask for a portable seeding procedure? 20:32:13 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:24 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3228.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:58 Blkt: no. There's a portable way to seed CL random number generators. 20:33:17 I see 20:33:27 (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t)) 20:34:17 If what you want is a repeatable PRNG sequence, then you can copy a random state: (defparameter *repeat* (make-random-state nil)) ; copies the current one. 20:34:36 does that produce the same series across implementations? 20:34:43 Not at all. 20:34:49 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:54 mmm 20:35:08 And not even different instances of the same image, that wouldn't be guaranteed. 20:35:15 ^ between 20:35:30 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:35:33 Right, that's why there are PRNG in libraries. 20:35:38 have you ever tried MT19937 library? 20:36:15 I didn't find a way to use its seeding procedure with a single number 20:36:17 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3228.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:17 I implemented a mersene twister and used it. Not that library, let me try it. 20:36:39 -!- skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit: skanev] 20:37:41 Blkt: mt19937 random states are just structures. You can pass it a vector that you initialize however you want (you can use mt19937:init-random-state. 20:37:52 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002df6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:37:58 This twister is not seeded by a mere integer, but by a vector of integers. 20:38:33 I know that 20:38:56 So there 20:38:57 . 20:39:15 but I tried to do (let ((mt19937:*random-state* (mt19937:init-random-state 10))) ...) 20:40:05 That seems to work. 20:40:16 (equal (mt19937:init-random-state 10) (mt19937:init-random-state 10)) 20:41:25 it fails here 20:41:28 I mean 20:41:38 equality test is fine 20:41:42 Blkt: But yuo need to make a random-state of that. 20:42:05 I guess you'll have to look at the sources, and use an internal function or patch make-random-state to accept a vector returned by init-random-state. 20:42:41 so you agree that there's no way without using internal functions? 20:42:58 random state prints as a structure: #S(mt19937:random-state :state #(0 2567483615 2 2601187879 ) but the constructor is not exported. 20:43:06 Blkt: yes I agree. 20:43:08 I just couldn't find a way, so I asked 20:43:54 (mt19937::make-random-object :state (mt19937:init-random-state 10)) 20:44:01 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:06 Reading the source of mt19937:make-random-state. 20:44:18 is there any magic in the theoric functional "currying" not found in apply-partially or in (defun curry (function &rest initial-args) (lambda (&rest args) (apply function (append initial-args args))))? 20:44:42 yes, I saw make-random-object too 20:45:21 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:45:24 I'd just like to understand if it's reasonable to ask for/provide a patch for it 20:45:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45:49 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 20:46:03 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:47 Blkt: sorry, came late to this. What do you want to do? 20:47:27 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 20:47:39 I was trying to seed MT19937 rng with a single number 20:47:42 Blkt: well, obviously the API exported is that of CL. CL allows documented extensions, so making mt19937:make-random-state accept a vector to initialize itself should be ok, as a patch. 20:47:58 And providing a single number too. 20:48:12 You could even write a CDR about it! 20:49:03 Blkt: instead of a vector? Why? 20:49:21 k0001_ [~k0001@host106.190-137-32.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:49:35 (mt19937:make-random-state (cl:random (expt 2 2048))) 20:49:53 is more practical than allocating an array of 64 32-bit integers 20:50:22 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1196-42.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:51:36 exactly 20:51:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:18 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host148.186-125-112.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:52:49 but that's minimal. 20:53:26 so I tried lisp500 and lisp5000 and all I can get of them is a segfault at startup... 20:54:04 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:05 bitrotted already? 20:56:08 pjb: what's a CDR? 20:56:13 dim: it's a 32-bit program. 20:56:26 Blkt: http://cdr.eurolisp.org 20:56:31 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:48 oh, never heard about it 20:58:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:30 pjb: oh. it's assuming some C structures are 32 bits when they could be 64 bits given newer hardware? 20:58:32 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:59:28 dim: gcc -m32 -o lisp500 lisp500.c -ldl -lm && ./lisp500 20:59:47 It must be compiled in 32-bit. 21:00:29 ? (+ (/ 1 2) (/ 1 3)) 21:00:29 ;0: 0.833333 21:00:30 hehe 21:00:35 thanks pjb :) 21:01:25 would you contribute to that project's Makefile? 21:01:26 http://code.google.com/p/lisp5000/source/browse/ 21:01:29 keppy [~keppy@50.46.183.208] has joined #lisp 21:01:49 Boo. We need an update. 21:01:59 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 21:02:13 dim: you can send them an email with that gcc command. 21:05:10 Blkt: If you want portability, I wrote a fairly performant PRNG implementation in pure lisp; it would be pretty easy to write a function to seed that 21:05:30 oh nice 21:05:51 does it guarantee the same series across implementations given the same seed? 21:06:03 Blkt: yup (unless there are bugs) 21:06:13 right now it doesn't seed from a single-number but that's easy to add 21:06:36 (it's actually 3 prngs xored together and one of them will seed from a single number, so you can use that to seed all the other ones) 21:07:36 it's slower than the builtin prng on all platforms except 64-bit sbcl, where it is slightly faster (since there is a 64-bit specific version and sbcl uses mostly 32-bit arithmetic in its builtin one) 21:08:15 i have a version of cmwc4096 here which should be quite portable. You need a vector of ints though. It is 30% faster than the inbuilt mt thing in sbcl 21:09:20 prxq: mine is marsaglias kiss-rng which is cmwc4096 plus xorshift plus cngf 21:09:45 https://github.com/jasom/kiss-rng/blob/master/kiss-rng.lisp 21:11:06 2011 KISS not 1993 21:12:54 smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:05 skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 21:16:45 what about their properties? 21:17:00 jasom: did you test it in some way? 21:17:06 jasom: i am reading a doc saying that the state of kiss is only 128 bits, so it cant be cmwc4096 21:17:13 Blkt: both should be great for monte-carlo, neither are usefull for crypto 21:17:22 prxq: there are like 8 kiss variants 21:17:45 I need it for simulations, not crypto, so it should be fine 21:18:00 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 21:19:03 Blkt: I ran tests against the reference implementation (given a specific seed it generates the same value after several million iterations) 21:19:30 I see 21:19:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:20:51 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 21:20:54 prxq: and I misremembered, it's kiss09 not kiss11 that I implemented; they are quite similar though 21:21:50 kiss11 needs a huge vector, it seems 21:22:03 prxq: so does cmwc4096, right? 21:22:07 *prxq* is reading eprint.iacr.org/2011/007.pdf 21:22:23 jasom: but not _THAT_ long. 21:22:34 4096 ints, not 2^22 21:22:40 prxq: that's bits 21:23:21 "static unsigned long Q[4194304]" - and I apologize for using the language of mordor 21:23:36 well, yes bits. 21:24:14 yeah, kiss09 used 4096 ints and kiss 11 uses 16 times that 21:24:46 also kiss09 had 32-bit and 64-bit versions wheras kiss11 is 64-bit only 21:25:07 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:18 jasom: that's 1024 times that 21:25:36 Joreji [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:49 and it's 2^22 words, not bits 21:26:00 prxq: ah, you're right, I misread 21:26:19 For seeding with a single int, you see it just run the cng with the seed to fill the rest of the state 21:26:37 which is about as good as you get for a small ceed 21:26:38 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 -!- skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit: skanev] 21:29:57 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3228.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:36 -!- ebw [~user@f051104218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:42 skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 21:33:26 rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:34:19 -!- skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.162.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:35:37 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 21:36:44 -!- Codynyx_ [~cody@c-24-131-173-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:37:10 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:25 -!- sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:32 christoph_debian [~user@2001:a60:f01c:0:42::1] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 hm didn't find anything explicit. do file dependencies in asdf need to be acyclic? 21:39:50 yes 21:40:48 ok, thanks 21:41:38 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:42:21 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:39 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:05 -!- wicked_shell [~wicked_sh@gateway/tor-sasl/wickedshell/x-12495307] has quit [Quit: Deleted by accident] 21:51:11 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-239-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host106.190-137-32.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:53:25 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-197-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:53:31 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:54:15 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-75-233.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:40 Joreji_ [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:06 dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:06:06 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:45 kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-4d028349.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 francogrex [~user@109.130.48.230] has joined #lisp 22:10:14 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@frbg-4d029f34.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:48 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 22:12:25 count-if works much faster on sorted lists/sequences. I didn't know that. What algorithm does it use, anyone knows? 22:12:45 depends on your implementation, of course 22:12:59 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:05 piko_ [~piko@194.228.13.34] has joined #lisp 22:13:15 let's say sbcl 22:13:44 -!- setmeaway2 [stemearay@119.201.52.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:48 well, look at the source 22:13:53 by disassembling I can see the many asm instructions but doesn't tell me much 22:14:06 looks like it just goes left to right 22:14:19 look at the source 22:14:36 if you can't read assembly, disassembling isn't likely to help 22:15:06 francogrex: oO 22:16:46 from sbcl itself (without slime) can you see the function details? 22:17:12 not reasonably 22:17:43 so the src package (tar.gz src) needed 22:18:05 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-150-133-200.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:14 francogrex: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl 22:18:21 segmond [~segmond@adsl-108-73-164-10.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:42 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:18:50 anyway it goes 10x much faster to do this for example (count-if (lambda (x) (< i x j)) list) 22:19:11 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:19:28 francogrex, who knows, maybe this is a case of branch prediction 22:19:35 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.129.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:41 francogrex: 10x faster than what? 22:19:41 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 22:19:43 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.133] has joined #lisp 22:19:56 than on unsorted lists 22:19:57 if it's sorted, you're counting the number of true elements at the start and false elements at the end, and the branches are therefore coalesced at the start and the end 22:20:37 ok 22:20:39 if it's unsorted, the branches are interspersed, randomly taking true and false branches with each item, so the cpu can't predict well 22:20:41 just a guess 22:20:57 it's quite plausible 22:31:06 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:14 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@73-159.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:03 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:04 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.48.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:18 lufu [~user@5.254.129.169] has joined #lisp 22:49:26 skanev [~aquarius@109-104-31-130.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 22:52:34 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:52:50 -!- dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:59:19 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:29 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:04 Codynyx [~cody@c-24-131-173-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:07 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:09:06 -!- renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:09:09 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:06 renard_ [~renard@2a01:e0b:1:150:ca0a:a9ff:fef1:a847] has joined #lisp 23:12:27 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:13:40 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@63.251.54.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:30 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:15:46 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:11 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 23:17:30 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #lisp 23:20:09 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:20:36 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:21:40 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:21:57 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-109-67-211-103.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:22:13 cmm [~cmm@109.67.211.103] has joined #lisp 23:22:31 PCChris [Chris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:24:12 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:27:54 -!- kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-4d028349.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:54 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 23:29:11 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: supernova explosion] 23:34:49 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:36:11 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.13] has joined #lisp 23:36:45 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:04 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-68.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:39:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:41:29 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 23:42:15 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 23:44:54 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:46:26 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:01 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 23:48:21 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:04 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:51 <_tca> in the nondeterminism section of OnLisp pg uses symbol comparison for signaling fail/cut... anyone know if would it be better or worse to replace that with restart/handler-case? 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