00:01:16 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 00:03:42 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 00:07:21 trivial-gray-streams doesn't work for me with ccl :/( 00:07:33 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 00:09:26 -!- shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:09:44 -!- SunMoonStar [~maks@ool-457f5814.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:13:23 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:16:02 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:11 shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:20 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:18:33 Raptum_ [~cdh473@50.96.152.54] has joined #lisp 00:18:33 -!- Raptum [~cdh473@50.96.154.23] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:18:35 -!- Raptum_ is now known as Raptum 00:18:38 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:18:39 Bike, bit more than that but should be short 00:19:37 -!- smiller [62ca1959@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.202.25.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:20:14 (defmacro push-if-not-nil (obj place) (once-only (obj) `(when ,obj (push ,obj ,place)))) 00:20:22 -!- juiko [~user@pc-39-16-161-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:18 -!- shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:22:33 oh, quasiquote works like in scheme? 00:23:15 only in that it's there, the semantics are kind of different. 00:23:40 oh. 00:24:57 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.188.5] has quit [Quit: goodnight] 00:25:07 -!- wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-160-91.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:26:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:27:31 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[~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:27 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:34 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:3dee:c59f:d0d3:d8fc] has joined #lisp 03:01:58 francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:11:19 ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 03:11:41 what does the "d0" suffix mean on a value such as 1.0d0 ? 03:11:44 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest42158 03:12:00 double float 03:12:39 Bike: ah. is there a way to cast that to a single float? 03:13:01 (coerce foo 'single-float), or (float foo 1.0) 03:13:52 coerce - how colorful... :) 03:15:06 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:15:06 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:18 damn this cl-svg package is picky about types... 03:16:23 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:16:44 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 03:17:14 do cos and sin alway return double floats? 03:17:18 always 03:17:40 i guess.. 03:17:51 i made an fcos and fsin (coerced to single) 03:18:16 now my translations work... 03:18:36 yates: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/12_acc.htm 03:19:52 ircmouser [~guest@c-67-172-123-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:53 oh, no, i don't think that's relevant. but i don't think you can get a double if you didn't put a double in. 03:19:58 -!- Guest42158 [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:23:04 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:57 well i hope it doesn't come back and bite me cause i don't understand all those conversion rules and my fcos/fsin functions seem to work fine. 03:24:00 thanks Bike. 03:29:09 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-128-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:30:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:30:29 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:24 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:56 can anyone think of something that costs money that would help me to be a better programmer or create better lisp apps? I feel I have everything I need but had someone ask me what I want for Christmas..... 03:32:56 how about a book. 03:33:10 I wondered about that, thought of maybe getting Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming 03:34:01 but also thinking about things like software, web server space, some paid api or other.... is there anything you pay for that you feel helps you tremendously with your programming? or are the best things in life really free? 03:34:16 School? 03:35:21 furthering my theory as I feel that's one of the worst things in life :) 03:35:27 -!- ircmouser [~guest@c-67-172-123-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: i love phork] 03:37:21 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:38:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:39:09 SunMoonStar [~maks@ool-457f5814.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:45:44 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:47:45 joekarma: time. 03:47:52 francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:48:18 ...if you think of the opportunity costs of that time (speaking in economics terms) 03:48:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:36 I don't think you can get time for Christmas. 03:48:44 hehe, if only 03:50:48 basic82 [3df5ac05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.172.5] has joined #lisp 03:51:10 I really tried to think of something but all I could really come up with is books... I guess being a developer is cheap! 03:51:56 textbooks ain't cheap. 03:52:41 that's true actually, I think that's a pretty good option 03:53:22 ircmouser [~guest@c-67-172-123-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:51 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:36 -!- basic82 [3df5ac05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.172.5] has quit [Client Quit] 03:54:46 how about paying a meta consultant on elance to tutor you? 03:55:40 that's a possibility for sure, and ties in a little to Bike's school idea 03:57:06 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:57:20 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:57:58 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:08 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:55 well, anyhow guys, thanks for the thoughts. I'm heading out for a bit but if there's any new ideas I'll be checking the scrollback 04:02:29 -!- benny [~user@i577A8DEA.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:11:34 joekarma: a year prepaid VPS? 04:14:30 -!- pjb [~user@92.103.75.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:16:11 hi cattle prod users 04:22:32 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 04:27:35 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:31:09 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:33:32 -!- auganov [~user@77-254-179-15.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:36:38 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:36:42 liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has joined #lisp 04:36:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.81.200.72] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 04:37:40 -!- Guest11273 [~foo@host154-19-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:38:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:06 benny [~user@i577A7121.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:39:57 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:34 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:49:00 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:49:18 -!- Guest21446 [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:51:10 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:54:42 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 04:59:03 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:47 zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-86-13-194.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:42 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:09:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:09:44 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:11 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:12:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.116.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:12:31 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:13:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.116.182] has joined #lisp 05:18:00 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:18:45 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:24:10 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24:50 z0a [~zainamro@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:06 Hey Lispers, I've got a question. 05:25:40 I code in C. I want to learn Lisp. Is there any benefits of learning Lisp? 05:26:28 yes. it is a different way of programming. expand your horizons and all. 05:27:32 I'm just wondering. Is having Lisp on my resume worth anything these days? 05:27:54 I feel as though Lisp is not used very often, these days. 05:28:04 shows that you have an open mind and bla bla bla. 05:29:10 Bike: Ok, thanks for responding. 05:29:47 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:56 jasom: thanks, that's a good idea 05:30:01 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:30:03 z0a: if you're just concerned about use maybe you'd like learning Forth. It's also different, and has obvious use in embedded controllers and things. 05:30:37 Bike: I will definitely take a look at it. 05:31:47 z0a: Practical Common Lisp and Learning Forth are both free online. 05:32:36 Bike: Yeah, I once started reading through PCP. I really liked it. 05:32:42 PCL* 05:33:43 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:13 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 05:34:14 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:33 -!- CatMtKing [~chrono220@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:56 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:50:54 forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:54:12 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:54:39 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:25 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:57:28 k0001_ [~k0001@186.153.77.210] has joined #lisp 05:58:32 -!- z0a [~zainamro@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: z0a] 05:58:49 z0a [~zainamro@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:32 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host152.190-224-66.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:07:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:12:22 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:18:11 -!- ircmouser [~guest@c-67-172-123-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:27:14 -!- z0a [~zainamro@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:29:49 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:44 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:37:55 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:3dee:c59f:d0d3:d8fc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:44:44 lizzin [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:08 -!- lizzin is now known as Guest78921 06:50:23 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 06:55:14 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:56:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:27 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 07:03:48 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:05:02 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.121.60] has joined #lisp 07:05:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:06 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 07:06:44 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-170-92.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:08:34 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:10:15 -!- forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: forrest__] 07:11:57 prxq [~prxq___@mnhm-4d012685.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:12:31 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:01 forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 -!- forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:19:35 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:19:54 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 07:20:10 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:22:21 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 07:25:24 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:26:19 do i have to use dependent protocol to trigger finalize-inheritance methods of subclasses? 07:26:50 make-instances-obsolete doesn't seem to cut it, understandably 07:28:17 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:22 pnkbst [~user@unaffiliated/pnkbst] has joined #lisp 07:29:38 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-138-130-146-233.lns5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:29:45 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.82] has joined #lisp 07:33:29 it actually looks like the dependent protocol is better suited for the stuff i want to do then putting it into finalize-inheritance 07:33:48 is the dependent protocol often used? 07:33:58 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:34:13 haven't seen it used before 07:34:21 never actually figured what it was about until now 07:35:00 basically, i have some inheritable information about classes, and i want to trigger a recompute whenever a superclass is reinitialized 07:36:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:36:38 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 07:36:48 the description of the description protocol is quite vague, so maybe it's not suited, i'll know when i try to use it 07:40:58 but then i think "why not just call some method inside finalize-inheritance on all subclasses" 07:41:19 hm, it's just specified to call map-dependents when an object is "modified", eh 07:41:49 Bike: i grepped for add-dependent in 175 systems, not once it's used there 07:41:55 ouch. 07:43:08 but when you redefine slots, the subclasses are updated, why oh why MOP doesn't have something similar? 07:43:49 seems like one of those cases where the mop being a research project becomes obvious 07:44:14 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:06 well, dependent thing seems like it might work, but it's just too involved, i can just call (map nil #'update (c2mop:class-direct-subclasses class)) 07:45:18 inside finalize-inheritance 07:45:36 :after-method, of course 07:46:14 maybe when you have a whole bunch of such updaters and want it to be extensible, then maybe 07:47:27 maybe for a third-party class, where you can't use an :after or :around method to finalize-inheritance 07:49:34 Bike: but it got many things right, although no doubt it could be refined based on real-word usage 07:49:50 yeah 07:49:52 the whole validate-superclass thing, or slot computation protocol are quite annoying 07:52:28 and metaclasses are cool, much more than all those defclass modifying macro-madness, too bad it's not as easy to define new metaclasses 08:00:29 defclass macro madness? like slot defs and all? 08:01:40 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 08:02:01 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:23 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 08:02:28 defclass* and the like 08:03:30 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:06:07 -!- SunMoonStar [~maks@ool-457f5814.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:06:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:11:16 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:11:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:12:36 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:12:40 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:14:18 smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:22 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:19:51 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 08:26:09 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:27:43 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:29:53 ircmouser [~guest@c-71-193-1-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:54 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:33:05 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.182.138] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 08:33:07 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.121.60] has left #lisp 08:34:50 -!- engblom` is now known as engblom 08:34:51 -!- engblom [~user@86-60-152-181-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:51 engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 08:37:33 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.64.229] has left #lisp 08:37:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:38:41 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:38:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:39:34 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:40:05 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 08:40:46 Hey 08:41:00 Oops. Morin' 08:41:08 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-170-92.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:43:19 -!- pnkbst [~user@unaffiliated/pnkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:44:54 minion: memo for pjb: greenspun's tenth rule (-: 08:44:54 Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 08:45:22 m| 08:45:28 ... 08:45:44 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-48-86.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:46:22 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:04 prip [~foo@host154-19-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:47:41 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:47:55 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:25 liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has joined #lisp 08:50:18 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 08:50:46 slot names with the same SYMBOL-NAME but different SYMBOL-PACKAGE (possible package problem) for class #: (SB-PCL::SLOTS QT::SLOTS) 08:51:06 well, why, thank you sbcl for this style warning, it'll hunt me now 08:52:00 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 08:52:06 maybe it shouldn't give such warnings for internal symbols 08:52:15 -!- ircmouser [~guest@c-71-193-1-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: phork] 08:53:20 ircmouser [~guest@c-71-193-1-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:20 MrWoohoo_ [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:19 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: asleep] 09:03:37 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 09:06:36 and patching SBCL seems like a better idea than changing your symbol names 09:07:26 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:11:17 you are probably right 09:11:44 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:11:48 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:11:55 nan_ [~user@46.197.116.88] has joined #lisp 09:12:10 all is left is to wait for sbcl to unfreeze 09:12:14 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:12:20 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:12:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.82] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:12:30 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:39 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:12:46 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:13:14 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:13:21 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:14:09 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:14:13 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:14:34 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:14:40 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:14:59 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:15:05 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:15:35 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-180-135.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:15:58 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:17:05 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:17:13 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has left #lisp 09:17:21 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 09:21:16 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:25:27 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:40 -!- MrWoohoo_ is now known as MrWoohoo 09:33:14 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:46 pjb [~t@92.103.75.130] has joined #lisp 09:39:25 replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 09:39:28 -!- Nisstyre is now known as whitef 09:39:36 Bike: your float form doesn't coerce foo to a single-float, but to a 09:39:36 pjb, memo from pnpuff: greenspun's tenth rule (-: 09:39:39 *read-default-float-format*. You just use (float foo 1.0f0) to get a single-float. See 09:39:42 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_e.htm#exponent_marker 09:39:42 <04:13:01> (coerce foo 'single-float), or (float foo 1.0) 09:40:45 Ah well, rules, principles, laws, ... so much red tape! 09:41:18 -!- whitef is now known as Nisstyre 09:42:30 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:47 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 09:43:43 heya :) 09:45:32 -!- reactormonk [freak@cpe-70-113-86-124.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- insomniaSalt [~user@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:45:32 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:46:28 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 09:47:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:47:41 "The combinations marked by an asterisk are explicitly reserved to the user 09:47:41 and will never be defined by Common Lisp" i am impressed, and this happens everytime i read something about it. 09:47:54 reactormonk [freak@cpe-70-113-86-124.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 insomniaSalt [~user@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 09:47:54 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 09:47:55 basic82 [3df5a317@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.163.23] has joined #lisp 09:48:20 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 09:48:41 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:49:17 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:35 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@59.35.103.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:57 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.103.32] has joined #lisp 09:53:14 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 09:53:19 nan_: combinations like *ding-a-ling* ? 09:53:21 hai 09:55:02 pnpuff: i am reading a chapter from "common lisp the language", it was about reader macros 09:57:04 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-164-252.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:57:31 -!- ircmouser [~guest@c-71-193-1-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:57:46 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@186.153.77.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:57:55 pnpuff: #! #? #[ #] #{ #} 09:58:08 and similarly, for the reader macros: ! ? [ ] { } 09:58:18 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:59:06 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 09:59:31 While eg. #/ or #I are undefined, some implementations may provide them in their default read table. 10:00:07 QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:15 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-156-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:40 francogrex [~user@109.130.12.200] has joined #lisp 10:01:28 pjb: i mean they actually thought of it when designing the language, they want you to extend the language and give you tools to do it. this is not something i used to :) 10:01:45 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:01:59 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.167.162.102] has joined #lisp 10:02:54 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:03:16 Ralt_ [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:26 new profiling showing where it is getting bogged down: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133998#1 10:03:42 -!- replore [~replore@EM117-55-65-133.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:51 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-50-109.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 function 'cnt' being called many times by fuction 'windows' + count-if maybe slow 10:04:44 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:04:58 i am trying to see if I could make a b-tree to optimize 10:05:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:06:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:08:08 ircmouser [~guest@c-71-193-1-69.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:14 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:40 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 10:15:54 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:56 -!- basic82 [3df5a317@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.163.23] has left #lisp 10:16:11 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 10:16:42 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:00 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 10:17:04 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:22 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 10:17:40 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 10:18:46 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-239.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:42 francogrex: cnt is O(n) you can make it O(log(n)) if you can invest in O(nlog(n)), with n = (length data). 10:20:16 So you have to compare (length observed) and (length background) to maxed. 10:21:20 or even compared to maxed². 10:24:08 hmm, yes it is the best way to improve the algorithm 10:24:36 I was trying to implement the function in asm to make it faster but I realize it's not the smart way 10:25:02 rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:28:03 -!- amado [~amado@187.209.15.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:29:11 Hence the lessons in algorithmics and algorithm complexity they teach at universities 10:29:49 samrat [~samrat@49.244.47.151] has joined #lisp 10:31:15 -!- prxq [~prxq___@mnhm-4d012685.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:31:39 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:33:16 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:34:40 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:08 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012685.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:09 *francogrex* wishes he hadn't slept through those courses 10:42:55 -!- Guest78921 [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:44:20 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:45:31 ASau` [~user@46.115.109.167] has joined #lisp 10:46:42 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ad5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:27 nikodemus_phone [~androirc@37-219-223-229.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:48:52 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.56.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48:55 shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:03 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:34 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 10:49:34 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:25 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 10:52:04 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 10:57:19 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.167.162.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:57:52 nan_: maybe could be interesting for you reading chapter 4 of "Let Over Lambda". 10:58:22 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 10:58:55 -!- Kvaks_ [~kvaks@84.159.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:59:54 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-215-192.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:51 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 11:04:37 I tell my students that sleeping through my lectures is fine as long as they do the work in their own time 11:04:47 sw2wolf [~sw2wolf@110.185.19.2] has joined #lisp 11:04:57 I only end up giving about 1 in 4 a failing mark 11:05:01 pnpuff: thanks i'll check it out 11:06:51 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:10:13 ml [~ml@p3E9E2460.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:53 hi all, is (multiple-value-bind (a b) (if x (f ...) (g ...) ...) specified to work? 11:11:39 yes 11:12:19 only when f or g return both multiple values..... ? 11:12:23 no 11:12:44 what's about OR instead of IF? 11:12:48 yes 11:12:51 ok 11:12:53 b will be nil if it only returns one 11:13:18 (though or doesn't propagate multiple values from its non-last argument 11:13:32 ... still, it will "work" as it is specified to work) 11:14:00 one of f or g is true at any time (or you assume that) otherwise you'd have or'ed them i think....but either way one of them has to return at least two values...... 11:14:18 I am catching up now, never too late... from the attick got all the good old books, the nicest being: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithms_%2B_Data_Structures_%3D_Programs 11:14:21 (multiple-value-bind (a b) (or (values 2 3) (values 5 6)) (list a b)) 11:14:25 ==> (2 nil) 11:14:27 wbooze: that is nonsense 11:14:45 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:15:06 in which sense ? 11:16:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:17:50 wbooze: nonsense has no sense ! 11:18:45 orly ? 11:19:36 nonsrsly 11:20:57 wbooze! 11:21:13 heyyy :) 11:22:03 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 11:22:03 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.12.200] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:22:55 dioxirane [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:25:59 -!- samrat [~samrat@49.244.47.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:26:55 -!- dioxirane [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 11:28:13 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:29:14 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:38 oh, AND does not propagate multiple values from non-last arguments neither 11:31:07 lizzin [~lizzin@c-24-14-148-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:31 -!- lizzin is now known as Guest65538 11:31:34 -!- sirdancealot8 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping 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has joined #lisp 13:38:46 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:39:38 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: gone] 13:40:11 replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 13:41:17 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.104.64.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 13:46:49 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.216.244] has joined #lisp 13:48:09 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.104.64.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:00:31 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:20 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:3dee:c59f:d0d3:d8fc] has joined #lisp 14:11:17 wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-183-101.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:19 hi 14:11:37 it says quicklisp can be used to load local projects, how? 14:12:21 pnpuff_ [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:12:38 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:13:32 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 14:14:35 -!- pnpuff_ is now known as pnpu1f 14:14:53 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:12 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:15:17 ikki [~ikki@189.247.215.71] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 -!- pnpu1f is now known as pnpuff 14:18:34 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:23 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 14:21:53 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.158.83.112] has quit [Quit: ] 14:23:10 ravenmail34 [~ravenmail@93-137-169-58.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:23:50 topic 14:23:53 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:12 wakeup: Just add your directory to asdf:*central-registry*. 14:24:27 -!- ravenmail34 [~ravenmail@93-137-169-58.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 14:24:35 wakeup: or put them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 14:25:20 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 14:26:16 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:27:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 14:27:33 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:35 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:47 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.1.2, Postmodern 1.19, Yason 0.6.2, Hunchentoot 1.2.7 14:27:55 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o Krystof 14:28:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ad5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:29:35 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:29:39 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:58 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:10 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:21 is there a predicate to test whether a cons is of the form (x . y) built in? 14:32:50 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 14:33:21 (typep x '(cons * (not list))) 14:34:06 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:34:19 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:19 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 14:34:31 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has joined #lisp 14:35:05 Krystof, whoa, what is that * in the middle? 14:35:11 Krystof, thanks also 14:37:13 shwouchk_: I believe the * is a way to say "a cons cell whose car is anything, and the cdr is not a list 14:37:27 (if someone has a name for it, I'd love to hear it) 14:37:33 "wild type" 14:37:46 It means any type. Equivalent to T 14:37:50 clhs cons 14:37:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 14:38:12 interesting 14:38:15 thanks all 14:38:22 thank you 14:38:58 shwouchk, well ((1 2) 3 4) is of the form (x . y) for x = (1 2) and y = (3 4). 14:39:21 So I wouldn't agree with Krystof's answer. 14:39:22 -!- auganov [~user@77-254-179-15.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:42 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-215-192.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:40:35 shwouchk: Yeah, Krystof's suggestion may be what you want, but really _every_ cons is of the form (x . y). 14:42:11 liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has joined #lisp 14:43:19 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has left #lisp 14:44:40 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:46:13 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has joined #lisp 14:48:21 -!- shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:49:28 It seems my copy of the hyperspec is missing some stuff (think I got the official release), is there a completed version somewhere? 14:49:58 By missing I mean I found headlines without underlying content 14:50:12 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:50:17 shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:31 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:09 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.216.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:52:29 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-196-222-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Quit: ] 14:52:29 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-164-252.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:52:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:29 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 14:55:35 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:55:47 sellout, yes, I guess I did not express myself exactly right, but he got it. 14:57:06 Ralt [~florian@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:57:26 is there a more correct way to make python style function decorators than macros? 14:57:59 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 14:58:03 the most correct would be not do them at all 14:58:39 why would that be? 14:59:04 pjb: * is not really equivalent to T 15:00:05 what is it then? 15:00:13 in general types, not in cons, i mean 15:00:53 clhs 4.2.3. 15:00:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 4.2.3.. 15:00:56 clhs 4.2.3 15:00:56 Type Specifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 15:01:06 shwouchk_: see above 15:03:05 thanks 15:03:21 stassats, and regarding my first question? 15:03:30 no 15:03:58 if you want to write python style, you know where to find python 15:09:18 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:11:14 stassats, thats a very arrogant and non-helpful comment 15:12:03 shwouchk_: http://uint32t.blogspot.fr/2007/12/python-decorators-in-lisp-part-1.html 15:13:03 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:13:40 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:46 shwouchk_: and iirc Caveman uses decorator (it's a web framework) 15:13:59 daimrod, cool, thanks! looks like macros are indeed required. 15:15:00 replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 15:15:05 shwouchk_: what makes sense in python doesn't have to make sense in lisp 15:15:14 and these are reader macros, not macros 15:16:47 stassats, in that case a helpful answer would be an explanation why it doesn't make sense to do it 15:16:56 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 and I don't care about the @ notation so I think regular macros would work fine. 15:17:24 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:42 regular macros is what people are using 15:18:11 instead of #@(synchronized lock), they write (with-lock-held lock code) 15:20:49 -!- Ralt [~florian@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:21:21 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-71-216.w83-205.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:21:56 and it's very encouraging to get called "arrogant and unhelpful" when you don't give an expanded answer, thank you 15:26:24 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:26:40 stassats, its not a 'not expanded answer' its a 'if you want feature X go find it elsewhere', which is imho arrogant and unhelpful. 15:29:12 less criticisms and more kindness would be nice on this gray and gloomy sunday 15:29:12 but that formulation is the most succinct way to put it 15:29:36 oops, saturday only 15:32:33 stassats, why not shorten it to 'f*** off!'? even shorter... 15:32:34 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32:43 but will you? 15:33:24 LiamH [~none@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-12-79.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 stassats, did I leave #lisp after your first suggestion? 15:36:48 no, you seem just to perpetuate off-topic 15:36:52 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 not perpetuate my ding-a-ling :) 15:38:47 pnpuff: can you stop saying nonsense? 15:38:52 -!- zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-86-13-194.tys.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 15:39:43 -!- LiamH [~none@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:41:50 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:17 wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-94-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:30 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:48 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:06 -!- wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-183-101.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:37 dear stassats: the music never is meaningless. 15:46:28 liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has joined #lisp 15:46:32 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 15:46:45 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:09 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 15:47:43 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:14 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.216.244] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 samrat [~samrat@49.244.33.129] has joined #lisp 15:52:08 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:53:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:58:58 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has joined #lisp 15:59:36 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:00:39 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.77] has joined #lisp 16:01:48 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:33 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:17 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:17:12 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 16:17:20 Kvaks [~kvaks@84.159.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:18:35 Is there an easy way to wrap everything I send to slime in some code? 16:19:00 not really 16:19:20 Basically I want C-x C-e, and commands at the REPL to be evaluated inside e.g. a let binding 16:19:24 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:19:30 engblom` [~user@86-60-152-181-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 no, no easy way 16:19:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:19:50 uneasy way? 16:20:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-159-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:04 modify REPL and C-x C-e 16:20:22 I see 16:20:40 *sykopomp* wonders what the use-case is. 16:20:50 pipes, of course! 16:20:53 haha no 16:21:20 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21:27 but did you write that pipe implementation? 16:21:34 and what was the problem with CCL? 16:21:34 Yes 16:21:47 well it seems trival-gray-streams sucks 16:21:59 but no real problem 16:22:07 how so? I've used it a few times now. 16:22:26 It doesn't quite follow the issue 16:22:31 the only weird thing is that you have to inherit from their classes to implement (some?) protocols. 16:22:47 fails to define default methods for stream-read-line etc 16:23:00 trival-gray-streams is just a wrapper 16:24:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:24:05 yeah maybe I will write a GRAY-STREAMS system that actually implements the issue on top of TRIVIAL-GRAY-STREAMS. 16:24:15 wakeup_: did you inherit from trivial-gray-stream-mixin? 16:24:18 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:24:21 sykopomp: yes 16:24:32 can you expand on what your issue is? and preferably, paste some code 16:25:03 before you embark on making another half-complete project 16:25:30 m| 16:25:30 wakeup_: if there is an issue with trivial-gray-streams on CCL it would be much better to fix it. trivial-*** are supposed to be portable accross (main) implementations. 16:26:53 and i see a default method for stream-read-line in CCL 16:27:37 for at least character input streams 16:27:44 maybe my trivial-gray-streams was outdated, don't know 16:28:08 I will definitely check before I program a lot of uselessstuff don't worry 16:28:27 right now I want to make my REPL non blocking 16:28:48 what do you mean? 16:29:37 -!- ml [~ml@p3E9E2460.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:29:49 bind *standard-input* to NIL, run evey EVAL in its own thread, provide basic job control, handle all conditions non interactively 16:30:00 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:33 that seems quite strange, what would that be useful for? 16:30:50 Its the IDE I long for 16:30:51 a REPL, of all things 16:31:06 a non-deterministic IDE where you don't know what happens? 16:32:06 and what does it mean, hand all conditions interactively? just abort them or something? 16:32:07 if want to call it that, yes 16:32:37 what are you trying to achieve? 16:32:40 return the condition object and print "BLARGHH, ERROR!" 16:33:23 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-022-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 sykopomp: to be honest I am trying to kill my SLIME less often bypressing the wrong number... 16:33:25 so you don't have to deal with the debugger? 16:33:30 right, i really shouldn't crazy what crazy things people are doing, it's their time they are wasting anyhow 16:33:36 s/craz/care/ 16:33:36 wakeup_: press A 16:33:42 it goes to 'abort' 16:33:53 the top-most one, that is 16:33:55 Abort or Abort* ;) 16:34:06 exactly what I don't want 16:34:35 stassats: right I agree with you 16:34:38 what do you want? 16:35:10 stassats: 17:36 < stassats> right, i really shouldn't crazy what crazy things people are doing, it's their time they are wasting anyhow 16:35:12 stassats: that you shouldn't care. 16:35:37 you shouldn't care about what i care either! 16:35:47 oh come 16:36:12 on 16:36:20 every time the sae 16:36:34 well, you can say what you're doing, i'm just not trying to stop from doing it 16:36:52 yeah thats ok 16:37:03 constructive criticism is great 16:37:59 so, how would you want that slime handled conditions? 16:38:29 maybe it will turn out so great that i will ditch the current way slime does it and adopt it! who knows 16:38:37 stassats: I will experiment and then decide what I like best. Right now I want it to be non-interactive by default 16:39:06 see how that goes 16:39:12 what does that even mean? 16:39:27 can you describe that? 16:39:41 I told you it should just return the condition object along with a message to *error-output* 16:39:59 why would that be useful? 16:40:04 with a recent hack, I started using a Big Global Lock around invoke-debugger because I was doing lots of threading stuff, and SLIME would end up giving me 100 debug buffers when I had one problem in my code :< 16:40:42 wakeup_: so, you return the condition object, but the stack is unwound, you can't do jack with your condition anymore 16:40:43 stassats: think for yourself 16:41:05 stassats: yes, if you give a fuck about the stack, you can run it again interactively 16:41:14 if not, slime can just stfu 16:41:16 and it doesn't show an error anymore 16:41:41 ml [~ml@p3E9E32D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:43 and you can't debug it, and miss a bug in production later on 16:41:53 that's useful, i guess 16:42:03 wakeup_: random question: are you getting the same set of errors over and over and over, and just ignoring them instead of fixing them? 16:42:34 sykopomp: my use case are typos for insance 16:42:45 stassats: you should be able to reproduce your errors 16:43:09 the errors don't think the same way 16:43:19 stassats: that is the last time I will respond to something that obvious 16:43:30 especially when you interact with some external parties 16:43:34 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:50 wakeup_: you have a weird workflow. 16:43:55 *sykopomp* shrugs 16:44:58 so, you run a program which fetches twits from twitter, it crashes, you enable debugging, it doesn't crash, because on the previous try twitter was just sending data in the way your program doesn't handle, but is not sending anymore 16:45:03 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:45:52 can you guys at least tell me where in the slime code I can find the EVAL part of the REPL 16:46:10 wakeup_: you should be able to do something that obvious on your own 16:46:28 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:41 I love you guys but you are mentally ill you should know that... 16:46:53 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:47:04 why, thank you so much for worrying 16:47:13 ill is not even the right term 16:47:15 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:23 -!- yates [~user@nc-71-54-138-0.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:29 because that would imply bad/out of order 16:47:44 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:47:44 its more mentally curious/unique 16:47:58 really no criticism, just an observation 16:48:00 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:25 that there is something really unique about the social interactin going on in this channel 16:48:29 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:48:35 that I have never sensed aywhere else before 16:48:59 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:28 not accepting dubious solutions to problems warrants such observations? interesting 16:49:28 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:49:52 replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 16:50:12 I admit my "workflow" may be weird 16:50:28 I do stuff, lots of it is stupid, then I learn from it 16:50:57 so, why are you asking for advice on #lisp and then don't even attempt to follow it? 16:51:01 I understand if that clashes with your guidance 16:51:33 I don't actually understand human language 16:51:48 well, that's not a problem, let's converse in Lisp 16:52:08 I am treating you guys more like xach.com/clhs 16:52:09 paste your code, let's laugh about it! 16:52:34 because I am only able to learn by doing 16:53:36 but can't project the way things would work without doing it, in your head? 16:53:59 ... 16:54:03 well I have ideas 16:54:14 but I guess I don't trust them too much 16:55:31 well, some ideas are too complex to think about without concrete things, but things like an aborting by default debugger, it's immediately clear that it's useless 16:55:48 lufu [~user@5.254.133.90] has joined #lisp 16:55:53 well it wouldnt be a debugger 16:55:58 but a REPL 16:56:13 so, a REPL without a debugger 16:56:16 with explicit debuggin 16:56:34 maybe it would work in scheme, where you can save continuations 16:58:32 or you can save a stack-trace inside your condition-containing object, but that's no substitute for a live stack 16:58:34 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 16:59:15 is it completely impossible for you to imagine cases where you dont want the stack trace? 16:59:55 it's often unnecessary, but when you need one, your doomed without it 17:00:02 you're 17:00:44 thats why you should be able to explicitly enable interactive debugging 17:01:00 when the error is long gone, right 17:01:10 I am using a lot of lisp applications from inside the repl 17:01:16 so am i 17:01:19 basically its my OS's shell 17:01:31 you can: just handle the condition. 17:01:43 thats what I want to do 17:01:51 at the SLIME level 17:02:01 is tha so wrong? 17:02:07 s/tha/that 17:02:25 well, if you like shooting yourself in the foot, then it isn't 17:03:16 apparently I want to do that 17:03:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:03:46 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:04:05 Any Clozure CL user? 17:04:09 me 17:04:33 gko: many 17:04:37 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:37 the most portable cl implementation :) 17:04:45 wakeup_: what do you mean with "slime level"? 17:04:57 cool, have a question in CCL regarding ccl:process-run-function... 17:05:03 just ask it 17:05:16 danlentz [~danlentz@c-71-58-50-195.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:28 pnpuff: I want the slime REPL (and C-x C-e) to have a *interactive-p* flag 17:05:46 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:33 Check here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134004 => why if I call directly (f2), the symbol is in P2, but when running in MP, it's in CL-USER ? How can I make it to be in P2 ? 17:07:56 gko: import the symbol 17:08:09 gko: there are many ways 17:08:26 wakeup_: I wish I could, but there are tons of them... 17:08:36 gko: intern depends on the value of *package* 17:08:55 _danlentz [~danlentz@107.227.198.144] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 and ccl has a default initial value for *package* for new threads, apparently 17:09:12 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:09:22 so, you should never use intern without qualifying the package, unless you really want 17:09:35 OK, I'll try. 17:10:24 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:10:30 you can use (intern "A" #.*package*) to intern in the package in which that form was read 17:11:25 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-71-58-50-195.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:29 stassats: actually, I want it to be in P2 (the package of the function that calls it). 17:11:42 functions don't have packages 17:11:52 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.238.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:24 -!- Forty-3 is now known as Forty-Elf 17:12:38 -!- Forty-Elf is now known as Forty-3 17:13:04 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 stassats: I meant I want it to be in the current package when the function is called. 17:13:34 well, then that's what's happening 17:13:44 your functions is run in a different thread with a different *package* 17:15:33 OK, I'll pass *package* as argument... 17:16:35 you can compare (ccl:process-run-function nil (lambda () (print *package*))) and (ccl:process-run-function nil (lambda (*package*) (print *package*)) *package*) 17:16:44 -!- _danlentz [~danlentz@107.227.198.144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:16:45 when run in a package other than cl-user, that is 17:17:23 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.141] has joined #lisp 17:17:32 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:17:44 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-104-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:18:15 basically, the rule of thumb with intern is: if you're doing it at run-time, then always specify package, if you run use it as a part of a macroexpansion, omit it 17:19:42 OK, it works.. Thanks! 17:20:15 the same applies to find-symbol, of course 17:20:49 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:56 and prepare to be attacked by modern-mode users for using "A" 17:21:34 replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 17:22:24 well, it being CCL precludes from modern-mode, but some people use weird readtable-cases 17:22:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 -!- nikodemus_phone [~androirc@37-219-223-229.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 17:24:36 yates [~user@nc-71-54-138-0.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:51 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:25:11 i got the slime/sbcl/ repl into a weird state "[input not complete]" - how to exit? 17:25:42 C-c C-c might help 17:25:57 did you enter umatched ( or "? 17:26:08 yes: " 17:26:23 -!- tdmackey [~tdmackey@booleanhaiku.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:26:31 neworder [~chatzilla@175.156.163.63] has joined #lisp 17:26:33 tdmackey [~tdmackey@booleanhaiku.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:35 Hi guys 17:26:41 "[input not complete]" is not a state 17:26:46 Have some problems with the Y Combinator 17:27:01 you can edit your input further, close ", and it will work fine 17:27:10 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:33 I tried stepping using drracket but I don't get what they mean 17:27:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134005 17:27:48 neworder: #scheme is your channel 17:28:26 oh, thought it's ok to post here too 17:28:28 haha 17:28:30 Sure , thanks 17:30:15 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:33:27 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:37:52 assume there are defvars a b c 17:38:39 how do i make a list '(a b c) that refers to those vars, so that, e.g., (nth 0 '(a b c)) returns 3.14 when (defvar a 3.14)? 17:38:54 (list a b c) 17:39:08 isn't that the same as '(a b c)? 17:39:12 nope 17:40:02 yates: who told you they were the same? 17:40:17 Raptum [~cdh473@50.96.152.54] has joined #lisp 17:40:25 pjb: Fred. 17:40:32 :) 17:40:32 He's lying! 17:41:10 i don't understand why they're not the same 17:41:11 Notice the difference: "'(a b c) and (list 'a 'b 'c) evaluate to similar objects." "'(a b c) and (list a b c) are the same thing." 17:41:17 One is true, the other is false. 17:41:50 yates: for one thing, they're not the same because one is a list of 2 elements, while the other is a list of 4 elements: 17:42:15 (mapcar 'length '('(a b c) (list a b c))) --> (2 4) 17:42:38 (mapcar 'first '('(a b c) (list a b c))) --> (QUOTE LIST) 17:42:48 (mapcar 'second '('(a b c) (list a b c))) --> ((a b c) a) 17:42:52 see, nothing in common. 17:43:54 *yates* is thinking 17:44:09 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:44:29 is there a eval bot here? 17:44:35 ,(+ 1 2) 17:44:42 no 17:45:36 is one allowed? 17:45:40 no 17:45:42 ok 17:45:59 *an 17:46:21 liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has joined #lisp 17:46:37 pjb: that's not really the best way to show the difference, i can construe an argument that NIL and () have nothing in common, (length "NIL") and (length "()") (char "NIL" 0), etc. 17:46:54 how can (length '(a b c)) be 2? i don't get that 17:47:25 yates: you just got more confused, thanks to pjb 17:47:48 ok... 17:48:04 in fact (length '(j4 j6 j10)) evaluates to 3 in my repl 17:48:08 yates: '(a b c) expands into (quote (a b c)), a list of 2 elements: quote and (a b c). 17:48:11 stassats: but your argument is wrong, while mine is true. Undersanding why is important in lisp. 17:48:36 pjb: you just witnessed that yates got only more confused 17:48:44 yates: '(a b c) is the list (CL:QUOTE (a b c)). 17:48:56 yates: try: (read) RET '(a b c) RET 17:49:18 yates: so, do you know what ' does? it prevents evaluation, that's why you will get a b c, a not 3.14 5 6, because a b c are not evaluated 17:49:39 yes. 17:49:48 (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) (list a b c)) => (1 2 3) 17:49:51 yates: when you write (length '(a b c)) you are not considering the object '(a b c), but the object (a b c), which is the object returned by evaluating the object '(a b c). 17:50:01 yates: (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) (list 'a 'b 'c)) = (A B C) 17:50:03 yates: again, notice the difference between "IS" and "EVFALUATES TO". 17:50:09 "EVALUATES TO". 17:50:26 yates: (let ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) '(a b c)) => (A B C) again (but it's not allowed to be modified) 17:50:44 "=>" is read "evaluates to". 17:51:58 why is the first element of the list returned by (mapcar 'length '('(a b c) (list a b c))) 2 while (length '(a b c)) is 3? 17:51:59 (let ((a 1) (b 2 (c 3)) `(,a ,b ,c)) => (1 2 3) 17:52:04 aren't they equivalent? 17:52:23 uups typo 17:52:34 Because '(a b c) is (cl:quote (a b c) and this IS a list of two elements, the symbol cl:quote and the list (a b c). 17:52:40 (b 2) ofc 17:53:12 -!- neworder [~chatzilla@175.156.163.63] has left #lisp 17:53:20 then mapcar is interpreting '(a b c) differently than length? 17:53:20 In (length '(a b c)), the list of two elements '(a b c) is evaluated, returning the list of three elements (a b c), which is given to length, and which therefore returns 3. 17:53:32 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:53:41 yates: neither mapcar nor length interpret anything. 17:53:52 (quote (a b c)) is 2 elements long! 17:54:04 yates: the arguments are EVALUATED and only their main result is passed to the function being called. 17:54:15 (a b c) has 3 elements tho 17:54:27 ok, but mapcar they are not evaluated? 17:54:33 *but in mapcar 17:54:42 yates: remember that ' prevents evaluation, so the first ' in ''(a b c) prevents evaluation of the second 17:54:47 yates: count the quotes ;-) 17:55:01 that's why you get '(a b c), which is (quote (a b c)), which is a list of two elements 17:55:18 ah. 17:55:23 (mapcar 'length '('(a b c) (list a b c))) is read as (mapcar (quote length) (quote ((quote (a b c)) (list a b c)))). 17:55:23 wow. 17:55:41 what happens if sort is supplied with a predicate of type >= rather than of type >? 17:55:41 right 17:55:51 clhs sort 17:55:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 17:55:53 ok. 17:55:58 shwouchk anything can happen. 17:56:24 shwouchk for example, you may get a shorter list as result. Or a unsorted list. 17:56:26 so let me go back and think about the rest of what you wrote a few minutes back, pjb 17:56:36 (i'm slow...) 17:56:40 ...does ''(foo bar baz) not just quote the '(foo and leave `bar baz)` open to interpretation? 17:56:57 nope 17:56:59 Raptum: no. 17:57:31 is (quote ...) not affected by whitespace 17:57:52 shwouchk: notice the "Predicate should return true if and only if the first argument is strictly less than the second (in some appropriate sense)." 17:57:55 pjb, are you sure? clhs claims in either case even if the predicate is not consistent I will at most get a permutation that is not 'ordered' 17:57:59 Raptum: What did you smoke this afternoon? 17:58:09 pjb: mozzarella 17:58:23 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:41 shwouchk: when a precondition is not ensured, anything can happen. 17:58:43 stassats, I know, that's why I asked what happens otherwise, as it is convenient to have a predicate of type >= passed 17:58:44 shwouchk: you're reading the wrong part, it's about stability 17:59:07 is it really? when exactly? 17:59:16 forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:19 shwouchk: and anything does happen. 17:59:51 If the key and predicate always return, then the sorting operation will always terminate, producing a sequence containing the same elements as sequence (that is, the result is a permutation of sequence). This is guaranteed even if the predicate does not really consistently represent a total order (in which case the elements will be scrambled in some unpredictable way, but no element will be lost). 18:00:08 Raptum: you could read about the lisp reader, Chapter 2. 18:00:13 shwouchk: do you know what a stable sort is? that's what this paragraph is about 18:00:21 i see how it works now, i just popped it into ccl 18:00:49 shwouchk: you're correct, I didn't remember that. 18:00:59 ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:01:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:25 pjb, thanks 18:02:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:02:47 stassats, I don't know what is a stable sort (I'll read) but it is only mentioned after the pasted paragraph and not referring to it. 18:03:14 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:19 Bike [~Glossina@207-224-23-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:04:32 stassats, and it is convenient if I already have a predicate of type >= that I use elsewhere 18:04:36 well, it shows that the order will be unpredictable 18:04:44 it says 18:04:55 so, if that's what you want 18:06:37 it is not what I want 18:06:41 unconvenient though 18:07:00 i don't really see how passing >= is convenient 18:07:52 again, if you already wrote a predicate that returns t even if they are equal and you use it elsewhere, then it is convenient to not write another one 18:08:30 well, right, the code that returns the wrong result can be as short as you want 18:09:16 () 18:09:40 + is shorter 18:09:49 18:09:56 that's just cheating 18:10:00 it's a quine 18:10:01 it gives no result! 18:10:10 the perfect code:) 18:10:11 Raptum: - is a quine too 18:10:14 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:10:15 lol 18:10:48 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:27 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-126-135.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 shwouchk: you can do (nreverse (sort sequence (complement #'>))) 18:12:58 replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 18:13:04 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:14:12 didn't know about complement 18:14:16 very convenient 18:15:31 although, come to think of it, it is very simple to write... should have done that 18:17:19 biscarch [~chris@108.83.17.79] has joined #lisp 18:19:40 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:3dee:c59f:d0d3:d8fc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:19:51 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:20:57 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067190.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 18:22:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134008 18:23:04 why do you nconc to the end? it's sorting anyhow 18:23:47 stassats, its not compiling - complains that "function called with tro arguments, but wants only one" 18:24:13 stassats, slightly faster, although uglier. 18:24:21 the thing you pasted doesn't even have matching parenthesis 18:24:25 what's the difference between setf and setq? 18:24:36 yates: setf works on more things 18:24:41 one has a 'f' in the name, the other has a 'q'. 18:24:42 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:43 yates: just forget that setq exists 18:25:06 stassats: do you mean more types of objects? 18:25:13 more places. 18:25:14 yates: more types of places 18:25:18 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@222.130.232.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:26 like, texas? 18:25:27 :) 18:25:29 you can do (setf (car foo) ...), not (setq (car foo) ...) 18:25:37 stassats, I missed the last closing parens in the paste 18:25:55 ah. 18:25:59 ok, danks. 18:26:03 *danka 18:26:10 shwouchk: and it doesn't have a definition of crossing-points 18:26:19 and what's edge, or base, and order-p 18:26:22 shwouchk: it would be more convenient to use (strictify '>=) with (defun strictify (predicate) (lambda (a b) (if (funcall predicate a b) (if (funcall predicate b a) nil t) nil))) 18:26:35 stassats, I can paste the entire function but it would be very large 18:27:15 paste away 18:27:24 pjb, also nice idea 18:27:27 shwouchk: (strictify (complement #'>)) 18:27:54 pjb: and slower 18:29:48 stassats, http://paste.lisp.org/display/134010 18:30:36 and when you press C-c C-c on it, what error do you get? 18:31:31 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-127-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:43 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-127-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 stassats, http://paste.lisp.org/display/134010#1 18:33:04 right, of course 18:33:17 your order-p lambda only has one parameter 18:33:55 *shwouchk* face palms 18:33:58 thanks 18:36:20 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.61] has joined #lisp 18:37:00 -!- forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: forrest__] 18:37:05 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:39:11 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.207.177] has joined #lisp 18:40:25 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.101.6] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 Forty-3 [~seana11@outbound.terrawi.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:22 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:44:08 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 18:45:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:00 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 18:47:26 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:49:04 -!- biscarch [~chris@108.83.17.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:53:33 Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:26 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:52 -!- shwouchk_ [~kosta@bzq-82-81-159-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:56:25 biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:53 a question about bordeaux-threads: "Local bindings are local to the thread they are introduced in, except that" 18:57:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.238.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:58:18 Does that mean local bindings aren't visible at all or just shouldnt be written to? 18:58:56 of course they aren't visible at all 19:00:42 so (let ((x 1)) (make-thread (lambda () x))) is undefined? 19:00:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number] 19:01:06 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:16 that's not a special variable 19:01:31 and it's well defined 19:01:53 Where did I imply special variable? 19:02:11 you cited bordeaux-threads documentation, it's about special variables 19:02:34 ah ok 19:03:08 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:11 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:03:41 so in (let ((*standard-output* 'foo)) (make-thread (lambda () *standard-output*))) whats *standard-output* in the thread? 19:04:58 k0001 [~k0001@host143.190-224-61.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:09:51 wakeup_: it's a special variable local to the thread. 19:10:00 CatMtKing [~chrono220@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:07 except that 19:10:42 wakeup_: did you read the "except that" part? 19:11:00 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:30 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012685.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:48 wakeup_: your form is implementation dependant, as per the documentation of bordeaux-thread (that "except that" part). 19:13:09 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:54 clhs ~C 19:14:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ~C. 19:14:59 clhs ~c 19:15:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_caa.htm 19:15:27 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!] 19:18:32 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:20:56 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.62] has left #lisp 19:21:36 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:21:40 urandom__ [~user@p548A2397.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:44 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-128-59-150-118.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:23:50 YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has joined #lisp 19:25:15 rgc [~user@183.Red-79-156-162.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:53 quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:29:43 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host143.190-224-61.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:30:27 does CL have no standard socket functionality? 19:30:48 forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 no 19:31:14 see iolib 19:31:26 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.220.40] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 19:31:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 19:31:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:31:50 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.141] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 19:32:34 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.141] has joined #lisp 19:33:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-4.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:26 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.216.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:38:56 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.220.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:07 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:22 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number] 19:41:44 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 Ernestas [~Ernestas@etc.ernest.as] has joined #lisp 19:42:03 -!- Ernestas [~Ernestas@etc.ernest.as] has left #lisp 19:42:58 minion: usocket 19:42:59 usocket: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/usocket 19:44:49 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 inside a defun, is there a variable which allows me to access a list containing all parameters given to that function? i'm trying to avoid &rest so i don't leak information about the implementation in the docstrings 19:49:49 no, tehre isn't 19:49:50 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-128-59-150-118.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:55 stassats: how does minion recognize a definition? 19:50:24 stassats: thank you 19:50:30 ehu`: it pulls the raw source of an article, the feature which is missing from the new cliki 19:51:21 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.101.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:51:59 phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 -!- phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:51:59 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:52:33 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 19:53:21 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 19:53:36 and i'm not about to venture into html-parsing the articles, neither can i send a patch for cliki, because its code is incomprehensible 19:54:38 is it dwimmified or something? 19:55:05 no, it uses restas which has some weird way of connecting urls to the code 19:55:45 stassats: some people in #lispweb use it, they may be able to help on the url front 19:56:54 i'm not going to do anything except accept a ready solution 19:57:27 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 19:57:45 so, if anybody wants minion to give good description, then he can send a patch/ask the maintainers 19:57:47 -!- forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: forrest__] 19:58:05 of cliki, that is, to provide article sources, that is 19:58:19 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-128-59-150-118.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:24 -!- samrat [~samrat@49.244.33.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:51 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:07:32 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:08:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:09:48 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:49 Eldariof93-ru [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:51 -!- PCChris_ [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-93.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:13:32 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:33 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:13:53 replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 20:15:20 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:17:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number] 20:18:15 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:35 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-118-109-226-159.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:19:42 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.1] 20:21:51 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aqt7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:22:58 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:23:27 how does one go about compiling lisp to native machine code, preferably using Clozure? 20:23:40 you can't do anything else with Clozure 20:23:50 anything else? 20:23:54 except compiling to native machine code 20:24:20 i mean, how do i compile to a binary in which i can run as a standalone program? 20:24:31 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqx252.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:34 you can save an executable image 20:24:38 why does everyone mix those up... 20:25:10 executable from clozure, you mean? 20:25:11 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aqt7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:18 yes 20:25:26 consult the manual 20:25:30 Bike: because they come from C/C++/Delphi environments? 20:25:46 well i figured that out; i'd like to be able to compile to a standalone program 20:25:49 how is that performed? 20:25:53 if at all 20:26:02 Raptum: you can save an executable image 20:26:02 check the manual, look for "executable" 20:26:40 i did... and what i found compiles to something i have to have clozure to run 20:27:16 http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Saving-Applications 20:27:18 then you did not do the right thing, I guess, because Clozure really does create standalones. 20:27:37 ehu: thank you for the last clause in that sentence 20:28:32 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:07 Raptum: this is the key from the link that stassats pointed you to: "Using CCL:SAVE-APPLICATION, you can create a file that contains a modified image, one that includes any changes you've made to the running Lisp system. " 20:29:23 i got it, thanks :3 20:29:32 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:30:23 you want the PREPEND-KERNEL option to ccl:save-application. 20:31:01 *ehu* hopes spelling this out to the letter, even though it's in the section stassats pointed to, helps Raptum get started 20:31:42 well, to really do it would be (ccl:save-application "application" :prepend-kernel t) 20:32:06 but we encourage perusal of available documentation instead 20:32:16 of course 20:32:43 minion: creating executables? 20:32:44 creating executables: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 20:34:36 Should we write a CL implementation that would behave just like gcc to make them happy? gst has a great success as a Smalltalk compiler generating stand alone unix programs. 20:35:26 lol wouldn't it just be quicker to write a little script that generates them instead? (hoping this isn't sarcasm) 20:35:31 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.220.40] has joined #lisp 20:35:38 (probably sarcasm) 20:37:09 cl-launch does that 20:37:13 and few others 20:39:41 Raptum: There's a lot of sarcasm, but it seems there's a real need for a unix CL implementation that would behave just like gcc too. 20:39:57 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-164-252.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:05 After all, you don't write scripts or CLI commands with Squeak, but you can with gst (I did one once). 20:40:11 i could see where it might drive off some potential users 20:40:57 s/drive off/confuse/ 20:41:36 Raptum: the problem is that it wouldn't be enough to just write a script for existing implementations (apart perhaps for ecl that would work), because the error reporting systems are different (we would need line and column), and the delivery is different (we need a libcl.so (there's libecl.so so ecl would do in this respect)), etc. 20:41:42 pjb: well, ECL kinda supports some of that, afaik, and with an alternative startup function could work like that 20:42:00 walter [~walter@ip-64-134-243-96.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:03 p_l: let's not confuse them and just use MAIN as startup function :-) 20:42:12 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:43:00 urgh, you have to load the program first before saving... 20:43:25 Raptum: you would still have to do that anyway. 20:43:35 right lol 20:43:48 pjb: no, I meant startup function for ECL image used as compiler 20:43:50 Raptum: that's because CL is Turing Complete at read-time, at compilation time, and at macro-expansion time, not just at run-time. 20:44:05 p_l: oh, I see. 20:44:08 so it would parse certain options to build code like GCC 20:44:22 i assumed the first arg was the input file and that it just did what gcc does and outputs an executable in the local directory 20:44:36 so it just overwrote my source file :P 20:44:58 also, ECL when built with certain features can turn a bunch of *.lisp files into .so/.dll/.dylib/.whatever that is loadable by ECL 20:45:13 also can make a static lib archive in certain situations 20:45:37 or just turn a complete lisp system into something you can distribute for compilation with C compiler 20:45:41 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:56 good lord the size of the executable 20:46:07 18 MB with no extra functions defined 20:46:24 Raptum: CCL? 20:46:28 yes 20:46:37 Raptum: so? is your HD still limited to 20mb? 20:46:41 lol 20:46:48 no, it's just that i am not used to that 20:46:52 that includes full-blown compiler, statically linked threading libs, unicode handling, and several other things 20:46:59 my net connection does 50Mbit / sec; that's 1.5s on your binary. 20:46:59 does it not have a massive startup overhead? 20:47:12 nope. 20:47:14 Raptum: what are you doing? Are you learning the programming language, or are you learning and finicking about specific tools in specific environments? 20:47:15 try it. 20:47:23 pjb: both 20:47:27 Raptum: just learn the language! 20:47:35 Tools come and go. The language stays. 20:47:37 Raptum: I should point out that a project like MPlayer, when built with maximum debug, once reached >1G executable size 20:47:59 Pfft! That's nothing. 20:47:59 pjb: i'm just marveling at the filesize 20:48:01 shit, really? damn. that includes all the decoders in the file or something? 20:48:29 1G-2G is the size of the libraries (developed by other teams) we use in our application 20:48:31 as long as it isn't really slow i'm honestly not bothered by it 20:48:40 Bike: debug annotations, source code, type checks etc? 20:48:42 Bike: and all of highly-specific debug info for the whole, statically linked executable 20:49:09 after dumping non-code stuff, it went down to the size of typical lisp executable, afaik ;) 20:49:50 Raptum: if you take care to learn from the CLHS, and to write conforming programs, then you will be able to choose one implementation or another in a few years, when you will have finished it. Not when you start! 20:50:06 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 20:50:06 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 20:50:06 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 20:50:35 -!- Eldariof93-ru [~CLD@pppoe-210-0-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:50:47 pjb: so i have to endure monkhood for a few years 20:51:14 not really 20:51:17 lol 20:51:23 How much time do you think you'll need to develop a saleable/distributable application? 20:51:34 that long 20:51:45 just grab an implementation that works well for learning (I do recommend SBCL on *nix, CCL on windows/Mac), then start using that 20:51:51 yet i would like to fiddle with clozure for the day 20:52:11 thanks to the ANSI standard, the code is pretty portable between implementations 20:52:21 usually the fiddling mode of development doesn't involve dumping exectuables 20:52:33 Bike: i play a mean fiddle 20:53:03 meh, i really just wanted to see how it worked 20:53:12 well now you know 20:53:16 :3 20:54:22 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:54:34 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:35 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-50-109.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:58:01 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-128-59-150-118.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:00 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.179] has joined #lisp 21:03:08 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:04 -!- walter [~walter@ip-64-134-243-96.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:05:53 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:08 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:09:09 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-159-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:13:07 ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 21:15:12 -!- biscarch [~chris@108-83-17-79.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:16:16 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:19 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:12 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:11 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@outbound.terrawi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:36 forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:52 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:wrong version number] 21:30:13 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:58 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 21:33:10 drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 21:33:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.215.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:34:12 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has joined #lisp 21:34:47 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 21:36:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:30 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 21:41:24 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 21:42:30 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:46 ikki [~ikki@189.247.215.71] has joined #lisp 21:46:23 biscarch [~chris@sf-85.stripe.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:40 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:50:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.220.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:51 can i put conditionals in my lisp code that will distinguish between whether clisp or sbcl is interpreting the code file ? 21:52:50 zophy: #+sbcl (print "hello from sbcl") 21:52:51 k0001 [~k0001@host25.186-109-183.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:53:56 and #+clisp ? i've seen that syntax 21:54:02 yep. 21:54:04 clhs #+ 21:54:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 21:54:59 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 21:55:10 zophy: and don't forget: #-(or clisp sbcl) (error "How do we do this in ~A" (lisp-implementation-type)) 21:55:29 francogrex [~user@109.130.12.200] has joined #lisp 21:55:57 yes, thanks fellows 21:57:05 quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:58:54 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:08 quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:00:44 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqt7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:00:52 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:01:06 rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:04:43 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:06:56 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqt7.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:08:07 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:10:43 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:25 ... wtf. my route to the gateway breaks for random intervals, but the one to my other machine in the same wifi works flawlessly 22:17:05 the SLIME source code confuses the hell out of me 22:18:22 where do I have to look if I want to change the behaviour of C-x C-e (on the CL side)? 22:22:14 wakeup_: slime.el  slime-interactive-eval  you could start with swank:interactive-eval 22:23:00 wakeup_: and then swank:eval-and-grab-output 22:23:01 wakeup_: i first run C-x C-h , and learn that slime-eval-last-expression is attached to that key combo. then i can press C-h f slime-eval-last-expression and i follow the link that's in there 22:23:15 thanks guys 22:24:47 wakeup_: then, you can use elisp-slime-nav (M-. and M-, for elisp) 22:25:40 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.179] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032]] 22:28:20 -!- Viaken [~david@projecthq.biz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:30:11 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-104-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:48 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31:15 spiderweb [~lcc@64.106.111.2] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:27 reactormonk: perhaps asking on #wifi would get you better answers? 22:33:59 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@64.106.111.2] has quit [Changing host] 22:33:59 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 22:35:11 wakeup_: type C-h k C-x C-e and see what command is bound to that key. You can then write your own command, bind it to C-x C-e, and perhaps call the original command, or some other function that the original command calls normally. When you are on the function documentation help page, you can click on the file name to jump to the function definition, and use C-h f on the other functions called in the code to read their doc, and follow 22:35:11 to their definition. 22:35:36 Viaken [~david@projecthq.biz] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:45 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-156-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 22:39:34 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:39:49 great 22:39:59 I already got it working 22:40:02 neat 22:40:35 just by chance: How does slime know what to print as a value (e.g. red and inspectable)? 22:41:07 or: how do _I_ do that 22:41:54 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-231.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:01 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-231.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:42:23 -!- bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:44:59 hey- what is faster, several setf's within a let* form or only 1 setf that assigns the exact number of (multiple) variables ? 22:45:14 (setf a 1) (setf b 2) or (setf a 1 b 2) 22:45:23 the latter may very well macroexpand to the former. 22:45:26 don't worry about it. 22:45:35 the compiler will optimize even with (optimize (speed 0)) ? 22:45:37 quarkup: that's not the level at which decent compilers work. 22:45:38 quarkup: your nick is a whacky version of mine! ;P 22:45:39 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:45:50 wakeup_: lol yeahp ;D 22:45:55 optimization qualities don't affect macroexpansion like that. 22:46:06 pkhuong, Bike: ok thank you all :) 22:46:32 its a matter of making the code more readable 22:46:37 vs the speed ;P 22:46:49 bin packing ftw xD 22:47:10 well, worry about the speed when you actually have speed problems, not when you're looking at forms that have the same semantics anyway 22:47:56 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:48:44 xD 22:49:33 it's to be evaluated, and will be tested with exhaustive methods, so the more speedier the better 22:49:50 thank you. 22:51:04 lol more speedier 22:51:55 XD 22:52:22 k0001_ [~k0001@186.153.77.230] has joined #lisp 22:52:49 is there a nice package to show the code tree in emacs? once a file has more than a couple hundred lines it is quite hard to remember which functions are defined and where 22:53:43 davazp [~user@86-44-165-52-dynamic.b-ras3.chf.cork.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-186.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:54:05 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:10 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:17 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host25.186-109-183.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:02 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:31 shwouchk: M-. will take you there. M-, to pop back 22:58:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:01 pkhuong, I'm looking more for a tree-view kind of thing of the file 22:59:13 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59:15 a list of functions and macros even 22:59:22 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-022-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:59:48 shwouchk: you do have symbol completion, right? 23:01:10 madnificent, of course. This is not what I'm looking for. Compare google to list of bookmarks, for instance. Different roles 23:01:23 Just type (mul M-TAB in a lisp buffer with slime. 23:01:24 phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 -!- phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:01:24 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:01:59 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:02:03 pjb, again, I'm not talking about completions 23:02:40 shwouchk: you could try and play with folding mode. 23:02:58 Well, I sometimes do: grep -niH '^(def' *.lisp 23:03:57 it sounds like either everyone here has perfect memory and can recite books word for word, or has never written a file with more than a dozen functions... Otherwise, I think the need for such a thing is pretty obvious? 23:04:18 Well, no, it's not obvious at all. 23:04:27 (apropos "THING") in the repl is much more useful. 23:04:32 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:04:34 Included for pretty much any major IDE for any language I tried 23:04:48 shwouchk: you of course realize that both the alternatives you listed are absurd. 23:04:53 Yes, but those languages don't have a REPL with apropos, describe and documentation. 23:05:26 Bike, indeed, which is why I don't understand how it is non-obvious how such a feature is a must 23:05:32 shwouchk: I use M-. and rarely if ever open files explicitly, except when writing new code. 23:05:44 pjb, do you always remember every function you defined? 23:06:03 Basically, any feature in an IDE is a failure of the programming language. 23:06:16 pjb, extreme arrogance 23:06:29 shwouchk: ah, that's what packages and naming conventions are for. 23:06:33 shwouchk: No, I use apropos or lspack (a formated list-all-packages/do-external-symbols). 23:06:38 shwouchk: because we use the other features, currently being described to you, e.g. apropos and M-. 23:06:43 that's what using the language as an ide is for 23:06:48 *Raptum* snickers 23:07:01 shwouchk: I wouldn't know, I don't use IDEs. It's people who use IDEs who told that. 23:07:12 rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:07:28 it may be that development in slime uses different behavioral idioms than you are used to. 23:07:34 Bike, I want to see a clear list of all my functions all the time. what you are describing does not fit me. 23:07:40 shwouchk: if you think that the need for what you want is obvious, why do you think that it is not available in slime? 23:07:53 shwouchk: too bad, that's not how the people develping SLIME work. 23:07:57 shwouchk: it might occur to you that we don't actually need it. 23:08:10 ghu43f [~vijay@192.5.110.4] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 shwouchk: after a certain point, I try to write documentation. That gives me a logically-organised table of contents for free. 23:08:22 ...is he even arguing that it should be in slime in the first place 23:08:33 well, you could connect SLIME somehow to ECB 23:08:37 and have your list of functions 23:09:11 i see where he's coming from; not wanting to have to search through documentation to find a single function that he could just as easily see in a little side buffer and just slap in there 23:09:27 shwouchk: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4709875 23:09:44 p_l, thanks! finally a useful answer 23:10:49 pjb, have you read the comments? 23:11:14 of course, in comments you will have both sides, but I know what's right :-) 23:11:32 lol 23:11:37 Raptum: the people developing SLIME tend to have some CL experience under their belts. They might be on to something. 23:11:54 pkhuong: might not. 23:12:15 pkhuong: anyways, whether or not it's in slime is irrelevant, assuming i've followed this properly 23:12:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.12.200] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:43 Raptum, at this point I'm not if you're sarcastic or not, but indeed, I don't want to search through the entire file I'm writing to see whether I defined a function to do something I need now. 23:12:47 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.207.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:02 shwouchk: not sarcastic and i understand what you mean 23:13:05 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@46-65-55-86.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:13:09 not to say documentation is bad in any way 23:13:12 shwouchk: please don't be rude. 23:13:35 Raptum, of course, I do document my code, but this is completely different 23:13:38 shwouchk: C-s or M-. usually works just as well for me 23:13:42 shwouchk: indeed 23:13:47 also, keeping files small 23:13:55 shwouchk: I use idomenu for this, btw. 23:14:13 for me, M-i => ido-style completion for all functions in the current buffer 23:14:22 -!- biscarch [~chris@sf-85.stripe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:26 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:14:29 (side note: this is one of the reasons i use sublime text) 23:14:30 sykopomp, thanks! I'll look at it 23:15:01 prxq [~prxq___@mnhm-4d012685.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:15 Raptum, I'll look at it as well 23:15:33 shwouchk: http://sublimetext.com/ 23:15:59 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:02 Is it useful for lisp programming? 23:16:13 Can it be programmed in lisp? 23:16:16 sublime kinda sucks 23:16:19 yes and no 23:16:20 just sayin' 23:16:24 chronologically 23:16:25 H4ns, so apparently there are at least a few people here who are not geniuses like some of you and do need a reminder to see what they have at a glance 23:16:26 Raptum: emacs is yes and yes. 23:16:33 emacs 1 - 0 sublime 23:16:39 pjb: sublime has other features that cause me to prefer it 23:16:44 or emacs 2 - 1 sublime if you want. 23:16:59 yeah more like emacs 3 - 2 sublime 23:17:11 but in my case it weighs out 23:17:12 shwouchk: we're not geniuses, we're just using other methods for similar things. e.g., «hm i wonder if i wrote a set intersection function already, (apropos "set-intersection") hey there it is» 23:18:29 p_l, that does not solve the problem. don't you sometimes want to look at the screen and see the big picture rather than the code for the specific function/whatever you are writing 23:18:31 ? 23:18:37 shwouchk: what's with the attitude? 23:18:44 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:19:06 he doesn't have a negative attitude 23:19:11 shwouchk: that argumentation reminds me of the *worst* UML luminaries 23:19:15 Bike, see the comment to p_l 23:19:27 and I don't use idomenu to figure out what's in a file. I have no idea why you need tools so badly in order to be able to do that. That said, emacs has *multiple* alternatives for doing this, if you're really insistent. 23:19:55 I use idomenu to jump around a file quickly, because it's slightly faster than C-s un function-name 23:19:56 shwouchk: okay, my answer is no, then, i just remember the general structure of what i'm doing, maybe look at the asds and packages if i forget 23:21:09 shwouchk: it seems that you have two separate issues however, you should separate "I can't remember if I wrote something" and "I want to see some kind of structure for what I've written" 23:21:46 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 23:21:50 Greetings lispers 23:22:00 hi ThomasH 23:22:14 *Raptum* tips his hat 23:22:26 Hey prxq, how are you? 23:22:38 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.1] 23:23:35 ThomasH: quite ok. too much work but ok. And you? 23:23:36 Bike, then I think you are different from most other people, because usually whenever something large is constructed (i.e. building, ship, plane, shuttle, software) then someone (the one in charge?) always has the general blueprints in writing as well as in his head. Especially if said person jumps from top view to details often. 23:23:40 also, there was at least one package that generated graphviz from code 23:23:51 shwouchk: that's the package and asds. 23:24:15 shwouchk: and IDEs are bad substitutions for real design docs 23:24:24 also that. 23:24:30 Bike, whats asds? 23:24:33 prxq: Same, the lisp development I've been keeping up on is lisp-unit. Although, I'm throughing together a Tecplot data file generator for work and will release it here in the next month or so. 23:24:36 ASDF definition files 23:24:55 ah 23:24:56 shwouchk: system definitions, sort of like a makefile but a bit less arcane. has what files depend on what, etc. 23:24:58 shwouchk: anyways, the point is that you are using emacs, and therefore, you just write the emacs lisp and the CL code needed to get what you want. 23:25:36 For example, when I wanted a list of the functions I defined in my sources, I took lispdoc, patched it heavily, and produced http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/flat-package-index.html 23:25:36 p_l, and a code tree is what bridges between the code and the docs 23:26:00 OT: In 1.4 million years, Gliese 710 will move within 50,000 AU of the Sun. If we're still around(humans, that is), we'll have a chance to travel to another star. 23:26:09 ThomasH: I write a lot of lisp, but it is not publicly available (yet) 23:26:10 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:15 ThomasH: you're pessimistic. 23:26:31 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:36 ThomasH: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/news/starwarscelebration.html 23:27:35 ThomasH, nice 23:28:22 and http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/18/nasa_eagleworks_warp_drive/ 23:28:55 prxq: I'm trying to get the core of lisp-unit to a relatively finished state and then only extend it through extensions. Then, I hope to focus my time on other libraries. 23:29:06 prxq: Almost there. 23:30:33 all i have to do is find time, and then I can publish a nice (albeit somewhat slow) ODE/DAE integrator :-) 23:31:32 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:32:18 prxq: I have a re-write branch, antiweb, of my linear algebra library that is coming along nicely. That was part of the motivation to get lisp-unit up to speed. 23:32:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:32:35 prxq: Have you heard of Weyl? 23:33:03 which Weyl? :-) is that a library? 23:33:27 is that thing available somewhere, i've heard of it a few times but haven't seen anything looking like a download 23:34:13 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34:41 prxq: Yeah, a computer algebra substrate in common lisp. It was last worked on in 1993 and had a bunch of hacks to deal with the state of flux in the standard. I grabbed a copy of it some years ago and worked through it once removing non-standard stuff. Haven't touched it in a couple years and am not sure if I can add it to github because of the copyright. 23:36:18 Not removing, cleaning up the non-standard stuff with standard stuff. 23:36:51 yae [~yae@212.28.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 23:36:55 biscarch [~chris@sf-85.stripe.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:09 The original Weyl is buried here -> ftp://ftp.cs.cornell.edu/pub/simlab/release/r1-0/simlab.tar.gz 23:37:28 Used for SimLab -> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/Projects/SimLab/releases/release-1-0.html 23:37:29 -!- yae is now known as Seamsot 23:37:31 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:09 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:ec50:3dee:c59f:d0d3:d8fc] has joined #lisp 23:38:19 thanks. 23:38:40 carlo5 [~510carlos@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:47 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.133.90] has left #lisp 23:39:01 ThomasH: have you tried contacting the original authors? 23:39:08 Where is the best place to start learning lisp? 23:39:23 carlo5: what is your experience level? 23:39:38 5 years plus programing 23:39:47 prxq: No, I should do that and just post what I have done. When I was working on it, I planned on doing that after having worked through the code to bring it completely up to standard. 23:39:57 carlo5: programming in which language? 23:40:04 php, javascript, c++ 23:40:24 python too 23:40:27 Bike: The original Weyl code takes some hand holding, I think I had it to a point where it would load with ASDF and some minor complaining. 23:40:30 carlo5: then "practical common lisp" should be a good starting point 23:40:38 thanks! 23:40:50 ThomasH: so i gathered. i was just interested in it because of some CAS stuff i was reading 23:41:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:42:11 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:29 what's this about Ar 23:42:32 Arc*? 23:42:34 Bike: I'm intrigued by the idea of having something that generates code on the fly from solutions of equations. Haven't had a real need for it though. 23:43:06 Raptum: half a scheme by a semifamous lisper probably not worth worrying about 23:43:10 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 23:43:14 oh good 23:43:33 heh pun 23:43:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:44:09 ThomasH: does sound interesting, i'll be sure to take a gander 23:44:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:45:01 Bike: Let me know if you plan on going forward with any development and I'll figure out how to post what I done with the code. Maybe can save you some time. 23:45:09 cool 23:48:00 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-104-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:49:46 -!- prxq [~prxq___@mnhm-4d012685.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:53:42 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:54:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:39 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 23:55:22 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:56:28 Bike: I think I may be able just to put it up on github, check out the copyright -> http://paste.lisp.org/+2VEM 23:57:22 ThomasH: I don't think anything there would prohibit it as long as you kept the notice/other obvious things, no 23:57:32 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:59:38 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:42 -!- forrest__ [~forrest@cpe-76-187-13-203.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: forrest__]