00:00:05 shwouchkster: PROG forms create "blocks". Several forms (like lambda, defun etc.) have "implicit PROGN", meaning unknown amount of forms inside and return value of last form 00:00:19 PROG1 returns value of first form, PROG2 of second form 00:00:42 aha 00:00:51 those are handy 00:01:01 (didn't know about the 1/2 version) 00:01:30 p_l, so how could that print the second but not first line? 00:02:17 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:42 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:56 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:56 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:16 -!- gk1 [~gk@24-179-210-90.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:03:17 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:30 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:39 dnolen [~user@96.224.16.41] has joined #lisp 00:06:46 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13F980.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:11:30 I think I just posted in c.l.l for the first time ever. 00:12:49 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:13:14 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:28 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:14:54 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:16 I'm going to be a good person and not heckle the meeting. 00:17:39 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:50 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:05 Forty-3 [~seana11@71.163.168.125] has joined #lisp 00:22:45 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 00:25:19 we already spoke about 'having to' assign the result of SORT, even when operating on a vector. Now guessing it's the same with DELETE. 00:25:43 yep 00:25:49 hmm, there are no guarantees about the DELETE result, it being the same vector 00:26:30 delete is "remove, except the original can be destroyed" not "remove in place" 00:26:57 ok 00:27:04 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:28:26 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-78FAD086.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 00:28:26 -!- luqui [~luqui@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 00:29:40 -!- Enoria [~Enoria@jte.kidradd.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:30:16 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:08 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-039-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:32:11 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:35:15 any know implementations of delete on adjustable arrays really shrink them? 00:35:57 but adjustable means there has to be an additional indirection, so either way, it could, no? 00:36:39 you could just iterate down it and move each element n to the left where n is the number of removed elements so far, and then finally adjust it to be of length (original-length - n) 00:38:33 eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has joined #lisp 00:39:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:40:29 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 00:41:19 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:36 mhm 00:44:10 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:44:41 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:09 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:53:50 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:55:59 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:15 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 01:03:41 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:04:43 -!- user123abc [~sally@67.171.79.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:05:49 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 01:12:34 gridaphobe` [~user@169.228.188.47] has joined #lisp 01:13:18 -!- gridaphobe [~user@128.54.6.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:13:30 -!- gridaphobe` is now known as gridaphobe 01:13:36 -!- ml__ [~ml@p3E9E5155.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:15:33 -!- eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:05 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:22:38 -!- Yuuhi```` [benni@84.131.162.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:23:10 gk1 [~gk@24-179-210-90.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:27:01 ml__ [~ml@p3E9E5171.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:37 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-158.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:33:09 -!- Blkt [~user@62.10.10.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:47 engblom` [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 01:37:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:37:25 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:03 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:47:34 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:48:43 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:52 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 01:48:52 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 01:48:56 ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:04 linsy [~ev@5.164.180.86] has joined #lisp 01:49:44 redscare [~Adium@CP-ONE-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:51:16 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.201.46] has joined #lisp 01:51:34 deego [deego@unaffiliated/deego] has joined #lisp 01:52:09 Hi. Is there a sbcl equivalent of load-history (elisp)? 01:53:41 i am used to run elisp from eshell which keeps command history 01:53:56 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:54:29 deego: there's various implementation-dependent ways to get an object->source mapping, try looking at the source of whatever swank function slime-edit-definition calls maybe? 01:55:03 I should explain better. Nothing to do with elisp or slime. I just want to dump a history of files sbcl has loaded so far. 01:55:19 .. via (load ..) 01:55:25 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 01:55:48 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:56:11 I don't see anything in LOAD's source that saves the path, from a glance. 01:56:37 me too 01:56:44 Bike, sw2wolf: Ah. :| 01:56:47 thanks. 01:56:49 ASDF and so on keep records of systems, though. 01:57:03 there's also *modules* if you use require, but you probably don't, so. 01:57:11 :) 01:57:14 got you 01:57:20 I probably should :) 01:59:33 A user tells me that 0.5G is not enough to compile his files. I suspect he rather has an infinite loop. And, most likely, this must be a load-loop since he's trying to compile/load files... I was hoping to quickly show him (load-history) or such tomorrow... hm 02:00:31 A backtrace would just show where the heap exhausted.. and the infinite loop won't be obvious from the backtrace. 02:06:21 you should probably be using something like asdf to avoid circular dependencies. 02:06:40 true. And, 'require's instead of loads. 02:06:44 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:06:51 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:07:18 well required is kind of old. 02:07:47 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 02:07:55 ah, ok, didn't know. Will look into asdf 02:08:29 <|3b|> REQUIRE is not so much 'old' as 'not specified in enough detail to be portably useful' 02:08:50 right, my mistake 02:09:27 <|3b|> if it does anything useful, it probably just calls ASDF anyway for anything that didn't come with the implementation 02:10:48 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 02:13:34 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:14:56 I always use (ql:quickload :Foo) 02:15:49 so the dependency is managed by ASDF 02:16:09 what do people recommend for matrix operations in lisp? 02:16:31 lla? femlisp? matlisp? lisplab? 02:17:07 -!- slava_ [~slava@li32-38.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:23:09 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c25fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:40 |O| 02:23:59 |-O-| 02:26:47 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1904.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:26:59 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:27:01 -!- qptain_Nemo 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#lisp 09:27:43 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 09:30:08 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:31:35 -!- segmond_ is now known as segmond 09:33:26 stassats: ? 09:33:56 -!- elliotcabk is now known as elliottcable 09:35:09 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nylifhvuigwvened] has joined #lisp 09:35:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:40:34 bitonic` [~user@dyn1216-46.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:42:18 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1200-165.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:47:02 hi 09:47:35 is there a way, when stepping through code, to execute an expression in the current context? 09:47:35 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 09:49:57 shwouchkster: that depends on your implementations. stepping is not very popular anyway. 09:50:24 shwouchkster: in the slime debugger backtrace, you can use e to evaluate an expression in the context of the frame that your cursor is at. 09:50:26 and in slime debugger press 'e' 09:50:34 shwouchkster: in the debugger you can use the key e. i don't know what stepper you're using. afaik, stepping tends to fail in emacs. 09:52:29 -!- ludston [~patience@CPE-60-229-3-167.lns4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 09:55:40 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 in elisp when debugging you can go to any point in the buffer and do C-x C-e to evaluate the expression there in the current debug frame, I think H4ns told me once it's the same with Slime but I'm not sure now 09:58:27 thanks all for the answers 09:58:36 I'm stepping in slime 09:58:43 in sbcl 09:58:51 cool! 09:59:13 slime has a stepper for sbcl? 09:59:19 it roughly works, though not all symbols have their values shown 09:59:21 sbcl has a stepper 10:00:08 H4ns, I don't know what that means - I do (step (func)) and then interact with sbcl 10:00:29 but slime does briefly highlight the line that it thinks I'm on 10:00:45 interesting. step-into does not do anything for me, but maybe that is because of my compilation settings 10:00:56 ah, yes 10:01:00 I've battled this 10:01:16 you need to set (declaim (optimization (debug 3))) 10:01:33 and in general have the debug be the highest 10:01:38 so I set all others to 0 10:01:47 shwouchkster: nice. C-u C-c C-k recompiles the current buffer with debug 3 10:02:12 cool 10:02:47 C-c C-k outputs a fasl file then load it, right? it's C-c C-l to just recompile in the live image without leaving artifacts? 10:04:00 dim, I do C-c M-k 10:04:11 it also outputs a fasl but doesn't load it 10:04:12 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 10:04:14 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:31 oh in most cases I don't want the fasl file 10:05:20 dim, what is the fasl file anyway? I still haven't gotten around to learning that 10:05:40 -!- am0c_ is now known as am0c 10:05:59 a pre-compiled artifact that could be faster to load than the source file, heavily depends on implementations though 10:06:06 I see 10:07:02 *madnificent* didn't know debug 3 helped the stepper. thanks shwouchkster 10:07:04 ok unfortunately C-c C-l does not implement the debug/speed knobs that C-c C-k has where you can prefix it with C-u for debug and M-- for speed 10:07:05 too bad 10:09:11 dim, so for speed it is M-u C-c C-k? 10:10:04 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:10:58 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 10:14:24 M-- C-c C-k (Emacs negative prefix argument) 10:14:49 M-u runs the command upcase-word, which is *not* a command prefix 10:15:34 madnificent, the first time I helped someone, yey! 10:16:09 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.134.224] has joined #lisp 10:16:22 dim, I see 10:16:48 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:25 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.134.224] has quit [Client Quit] 10:17:53 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:18:59 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-96-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 10:19:53 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7575ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@95-079.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:27:52 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:05 -!- niels1 [~niels@p4FD6CDD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 10:30:06 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1216-46.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:30:13 benny [~user@i577A8947.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:42 bitonic [~user@dyn1216-46.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:31:49 niels1 [~niels@p4FD6CDD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:23 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 10:36:55 is there a reason I cannot start stepping code after a (break)? 10:39:24 shwouchkster: BREAK is not a breakpoint 10:39:41 jdz, oh, I saw someone saying it is 10:39:50 jdz, is there a way to place a breakpoint? 10:40:16 shwouchkster: i don't know. if there is i'm not aware of it. 10:40:24 :/ 10:40:35 shwouchkster: trace can set break points in most implementations 10:40:52 shwouchkster: i'm not sure that those break points qualify as what jdz would call a break point, though. 10:41:04 H4ns: but those would be more like putting BREAK calls, not for stepping 10:41:11 exactly 10:41:17 I see 10:41:34 shwouchkster: the reason why what you do seems not to work smoothly is that most people here never use the stepper. you may have just made it a bit popular, though. 10:41:59 H4ns, heh :) 10:42:17 H4ns, how do you debug code then? a bunch of print statements? 10:42:29 shwouchkster: trace mostly. 10:42:51 hmm 10:42:53 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 10:42:54 I'll try that 10:43:38 shwouchkster: if i find that i need to debug below the function call level, i either use print statements or refactor so that i have more functions that i can trace 10:43:57 shwouchkster: print statement debugging is not all that bad in lisp because functions can be recompiled on the fly. 10:45:01 I see 10:45:16 H4ns, thanks 10:45:21 alright, I'm ultra late 10:45:35 thanks for the advice 10:45:36 bye 10:45:43 enjoy 10:50:00 shwouchkster: well, i know commercial lisps have breakpoints and stepping, but we were talking about slime/sbcl, right? 10:55:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-59-142-111.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:54 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.15.178] has joined #lisp 10:56:12 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.15.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:31 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.15.178] has joined #lisp 11:02:36 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1216-46.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:03 bitonic [~user@dyn1216-46.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:04:13 tfb [~tfb@fw-tnat.cambridge.arm.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:38 how do the common CL or-mappers that support CLOS store slots with list values in the sql database? especially nested lists :-/ 11:06:33 ecraven: they don't? 11:06:46 elephant at least seems to support this 11:06:52 well, some might use serialization 11:07:07 some actually might punt them into apropriate list/array type 11:10:23 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:11:47 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:29:08 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:59 asdr__ [~the_asdr@81.214.255.101] has joined #lisp 11:33:47 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.118.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:35:05 ehu [~ehu@31.137.118.193] has joined #lisp 11:39:17 do you know of some slime contrib for highlighting macros ? 11:40:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:42:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:43:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7575ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:43:35 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 11:50:46 bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 11:52:47 -!- asdr__ [~the_asdr@81.214.255.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:44 Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-232-190.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 -!- Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-232-190.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 11:56:36 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.87] has joined #lisp 11:56:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:57:37 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.87] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:49 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1216-46.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:00:56 bitonic [~user@dyn1204-156.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:02:31 Now I'm curious. Highlighting how? 12:03:17 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 12:04:41 Cymew: e.g. different font size or colour 12:09:41 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:42 Specifically noting that an expression is a macro? 12:09:47 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 12:11:51 ludston [~patience@CPE-60-229-3-167.lns4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 That sounds complicated 12:13:32 if you don't care about local macros you could get pretty far with macro-function and updating the font-lock regexp (which is similary, in concept, to what the slime indentation code does) 12:13:33 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nylifhvuigwvened] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:13:34 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:14:44 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 12:14:52 segv_: i pulled your changes - the old pull request did well 12:15:01 great, thanks! 12:15:06 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: go home] 12:15:22 everyone, if you use cl-fad and have some time, please try git://github.com/edicl/cl-fad.git 12:15:47 segv_ made a lot of useful additions and merged my temporary-file library into cl-fad \o/ 12:16:05 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:52 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:35 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 12:17:37 -!- am0c_ is now known as am0c 12:17:41 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 12:18:59 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:20:51 kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 12:21:31 great my computer rebooted once again 12:21:34 oups sorry 12:21:37 meant for another channel 12:22:05 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kezvwmguqioiczyc] has joined #lisp 12:22:23 -!- linsy [~ev@5.164.180.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:28:54 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:52 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-41-14.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:28 nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-56.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-56.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:35:47 hi 12:35:54 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:03 I've just destroyed and trashed my G series keyboard 12:36:13 gk1 [~gk@24-179-210-90.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39:07 -!- engblom is now known as mrcarrot 12:39:44 -!- mrcarrot is now known as engblom 12:39:59 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:12 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.118.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:45:56 -!- gk1 [~gk@24-179-210-90.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:46:26 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:48:18 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 12:49:15 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 12:49:27 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:32 temporary-file in cl-fad, cool! I don't remember the details, but I do remember it's a building block for full COPY support in postmodern :) 12:53:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:59 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:57:50 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 12:58:31 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 13:00:04 asdr__ [~the_asdr@81.214.255.101] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1204-156.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:13:02 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:06 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:16:54 -!- rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:09 rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:29 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:00 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:25:27 nyef__ [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:18 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.133] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:46 -!- ludston [~patience@CPE-60-229-3-167.lns4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:27:55 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 13:28:02 fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:28:16 pirateking9_9 [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 13:28:27 tfshfz [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 13:28:28 <[6502]> isn't lambda a special operator? 13:28:39 dlowe_ [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 13:28:46 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 13:29:21 jsnell_ [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:24 johs_ [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 pareidol1a [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:29:34 tkd_ [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has joined #lisp 13:29:35 [6502]: it is a macro 13:29:36 cods_ [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:36 [6502]: generally it's a macro which expands into (function (lambda ..)) 13:29:39 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:39 qlkzy_ [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 13:29:46 and function is the special operator 13:29:47 dmbaturin_ [~daniil@srv-ams.nl.enfan.org] has joined #lisp 13:30:01 <[6502]> oh ok 13:30:09 SHUPFS_ [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:10 arkx_ [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 13:30:51 <[6502]> i finally understood the #'(lambda ... ) thing 13:31:18 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:32:01 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:08 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:32:12 <[6502]> having both let and let* special sounds strange tho 13:32:46 eMBee_ [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-4.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-4.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:33:16 segv_: I *do* remember 19.2.2.4.3 :) 13:33:20 rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-004-006.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:23 [6502]: (let* ((object (foo)) (object-stack (cons object object-stack))) ...) 13:33:41 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 13:33:42 sure, you could just keep nesting let forms, but it's ugly and (often enough) doesn't do the same thing 13:33:46 fe[nl]ix: ha! :) 13:34:06 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:28 segv_: I even mentioned it in my ILC talk 13:34:30 -!- rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c25fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- varjagg 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[~aku@eagleflow.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- dmbaturin [~daniil@srv-ams.nl.enfan.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:34:30 -!- pirateking9_9 is now known as pirateking-_- 13:34:30 -!- dlowe_ is now known as dlowe 13:34:31 -!- rvchangue_ is now known as rvchangue 13:34:31 redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:33 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-004-006.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:34:33 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 13:34:38 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 13:34:44 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 13:35:06 <[6502]> segv_: what do you mean with doesn't do the same thing? 13:35:12 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.133.72] has joined #lisp 13:35:19 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 13:35:35 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:36 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sfjgkyaxdrxnilhp] has joined #lisp 13:37:44 rfgpfeiffer [~bob@blubberquark.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:10 [6502]: well, you could rewrite a let* into a let, but you'll just have to be careful with how you move the declare forms around. 13:39:18 ah, you were asking explicitly about the 'special-operator' ness of let* 13:40:21 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 13:40:52 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:41:04 ok, i guess let* needn't be special (though, i think it's this way in ccl, let could be the macro and let* the thing recognized by the compiler), but i'm guessing, with a little bit of help from the implementation, you could write one in terms of the other. 13:41:10 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c25fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:13 idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:41:25 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:41:28 [6502]: it's worth mentioning that LAMBDA as a macro did not appear until pretty late on in the CL standardisation process] 13:42:09 nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:12 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:09 <[6502]> is lisppaste down? 13:43:35 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 13:43:50 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:50 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-hhwwtqlrlpmvkria] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:50 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:50 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:50 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:50 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:10 -!- sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:25 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-qilnhcpcynxchghx] has joined #lisp 13:44:26 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 13:45:04 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 13:45:21 <[6502]> segv_: oh... declare. You're right. Implementing let* using let seems quite more annoying than I suspected. 13:46:14 -!- postfuturist [~postfutur@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:25 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:46:36 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 13:46:37 <[6502]> segv_: but the other way around is simple... i.e. implementing let using let* 13:46:38 sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 13:46:40 -!- sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Client Quit] 13:47:01 is it? 13:47:05 sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 13:47:29 [6502]: i'm not sure it is: (let ((a 1) (b (1+ a)) ...) 13:47:31 How do you do (let ((a 1) (b a)) ...), not sure you can 13:47:43 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:05 <[6502]> tfb: cannot one just compute all right-hand expressions into gensyms then expand let as a let* assigning from the temp variables? 13:48:30 transforming it to (let ((a 1)) (let ((b a)) ...) would be one way of doing it 13:48:45 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:53 kennyd: no that has different semantics 13:48:53 myx [~myx@pppoe-210-238-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 13:49:02 tfb example? 13:49:03 [6502]: yes, I think so 13:49:19 postfuturist [~postfutur@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:36 (let ((a 12)) (let ((a 6) (b a)) (values a b))) 13:49:46 vs yours 13:49:46 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:10 -!- NimeshNeema is now known as NimeshNeema_ 13:51:13 -!- NimeshNeema_ [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sfjgkyaxdrxnilhp] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:51:35 <[6502]> buld complete.... back to working. Thanks for the clarifications... 13:51:44 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:51:57 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:52:09 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:45 tfb I am not sure how that comes into play when we expand our (let* ((a 1) (b a)) ,@body) into (let ((a 1)) (let ((b a)) ,@body) 13:53:39 kennyd: in (let ((a 1) (b a)) ...) the A that is used as the value to bind B to is *not* the A bound by the LET 13:54:09 while in the nested case, it is 13:54:16 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 13:54:24 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jhgfcesbagriygiu] has joined #lisp 13:55:01 So for instance (let ((a b) (b a)) ...) binds them to each other's ambient values 13:55:06 kennyd: (let ((a 'outer)) (let ((b a)) b)) ==> 'outer ; while (let* ((a 'outer) (b a)) b) ==> error undefined variable a 13:55:19 um, sorry, other way around 13:55:25 yeah I see it now 13:56:42 tfb see my initial code though, each form in let* is in it's own let 13:57:24 https://github.com/rpav/common-methods <--- opinions? 13:59:01 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:59:20 *shrug* "more clarity" sure. 13:59:28 sperry9 [~sperry@31.45.153.175] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 Amadiro_ [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:00:00 p_l: i'd say it is another misguided attempt to "improve" common lisp because it is "not like" blub 14:00:35 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-41-14.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:49 so it would be (let ((a 12)) (let ((a 6)) (let ((b a)) (values a b)))) => 6; 6 14:01:10 whats a good lisp implementation for windows? 14:02:16 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.237] has joined #lisp 14:02:32 sperry9: out of free ones, I'd go with Clozure CL 14:02:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:05 sperry9: I'd go with a Linux VM if I could get away with it. 14:03:15 p_l: «you can just write (def width ...) and be sure you're not painted into a corner.» -- i don't buy this 14:03:43 that looks like degraded smalltalk :) 14:04:20 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:04:53 though there have been times when i'd wished i could specialize on a keyword parameter (or an &optional) with the default value set in the defgeneric 'somehow' 14:04:55 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 14:05:27 kennyd: my point is that if you want to (for instance) swap two bindings, you can do that easily with LET, but you can't with LET* without introducing extra names 14:05:50 how about clisp? 14:05:51 segv_: yeah, having a default for optional parameter in defgeneric i had wished, too 14:05:59 sperry9: works well, too 14:06:09 bitonic [~user@dyn1219-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:06:13 sperry9: i used clozure cl when i last used windows, worked fine. 14:06:47 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 ECL also works, or at leat worked few years ago (compiled with MSVC, even) 14:07:48 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:08:50 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:09:32 p_l: to answer your question though, stuff like that is great for a specific app that has a very specific (and often repeated) style/convention. as a general purpose library? probably not going to happen. 14:09:46 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 14:09:49 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:10:11 though i'm suprprised more people don't just take all their ideas, bundle them up in a package, call it BetterThanRuby and release it as a new language.... 14:10:55 while i believe that common lisp could be better, i'm not sure that it can actually be improved. 14:11:05 segv_: isn't that what the ruby people do all the time? 14:11:31 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:58 or is that python? I forget which of them thinks it is just fine to change the language incompatibly every 8 minutes 14:13:02 H4ns: the vast majority of complaints I've ever had about CL can be solved through changing usage patterns and writing libraries. 14:13:10 which is nice 14:13:19 right. 14:13:29 -!- bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:13:32 and yeah, a lot of problems other people have are non-issues 14:13:37 in practice 14:13:48 segv_: well, I was looking more for use in application, or "application framework" (i.e. constrained environment to work on specific type of applications), not for use in general purpose library 14:14:31 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:16:11 -!- Amadiro_ [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:17:30 p_l: if you're writing code that's 90% talking to cairo (so lots of message-passing style calls and repetition), i can totally understand why you'd want someting like that. personally, i find names like def to be too short, i don't like macros that just rename themselves (the weird names worry me); and i have no problem writing (export 'foo); 14:18:06 nan_ [~candodget@46.197.116.88] has joined #lisp 14:19:09 p_l: in re common methods: it says it's about brevity and clarity, but the only interesting part is that you can specialize on &key args. 14:19:30 syntactical brevity is overrated. 14:20:03 I kinda like that though. It would be nice to dispatch on &keys 14:20:10 another point: how about passing functions from common methods as callbacks to other code? 14:20:34 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:42 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:20:45 well, code that passes args by position, not as keywords 14:21:03 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:22:36 i thought it shouldn't be impossible to add enough closing parens at the end of a function, and slime would be a great place for it, bam! it is there! so i think it is time for me to read all the slime- functions. 14:22:46 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1219-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:23:10 nan_: add what parens? use paredit and they are already there when you need them 14:23:41 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.12.237] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 14:24:09 jdz: slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp 14:24:31 paredit? lemme check 14:25:01 bitonic [~user@dyn1219-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:26:07 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:15 p_l: it could be interestesting. i don't like the keyword parameters being forced. i wonder if the compilermacro-functions are required. iirc the standard doesn't require them to be expanded 14:29:56 madnificent: I'm not sure I'd want to use an implementation that didn't support them :) 14:30:29 jdz: i had it for sbcl command line, didn't know there is an emacs version, thanks it is much better now, is there any other gems like this in emacs for lisp? 14:31:30 afk 14:32:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 14:33:17 nan_: well, make sure you activate slime-fancy-inspector and slime-presentations contribs 14:33:33 nan_: and check all the others to see which you like 14:33:33 -!- kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:59 jdz: thanks i'll check now 14:35:15 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:41 is lisp a good choice for a beginner to functional languages? 14:36:02 sperry9: lisp is not a functional language 14:36:04 scigod [~sci@111.213.187.17] has joined #lisp 14:36:29 no? 14:36:38 sperry9: if you want to learn something about functional programming, choose a programming language that leans towards that more than common lisp. 14:36:40 sperry9: no 14:36:55 what kind of language is it 14:37:20 sperry9: it is multi-paradigm and has functional, object oriented and imperative features. and more. 14:37:34 Joreji [~thomas@91-001.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 it won't force you into functional programming, you can still use it to that end 14:38:07 How do i prevent format from wrapping arrays? 14:38:43 -!- kmb [~kmb@cpe-72-227-136-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kmb] 14:38:43 yeah I see. I thought it was all about functional programming for some reason 14:39:12 emacs-dwim: set *print-right-margin* to nil 14:39:17 emacs-dwim: set or bind 14:39:24 jdz: thanks! 14:39:27 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:40:48 Ill give it a shot still, I like its syntax and code is data sounds intriguing 14:41:18 sperry9: then you've found a good company, we also happen to like the syntax 14:41:23 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has left #lisp 14:41:34 or the lack of it :) 14:42:08 (kind of refering to M-exp that was meant to be the next step after S-exp but never got used really) 14:43:07 sperry9: what is your programming background so far? 14:43:09 nobody talked about m-expressions since 50 years. 14:45:19 so the lack of syntax is not controversial enough to need to reference M-exps? :) 14:45:31 madnificent: C, C++, java and python 14:45:51 dim: right. there is no "lack" of syntax. the syntax is just different from what other languages have 14:45:58 dim: it is not even all that uncomplicated. 14:46:17 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:29 -!- arkx_ is now known as arkx 14:46:40 in fact learning about the reader, you learn that there really is a syntax of some sort, with traps and oddities 14:46:44 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 well that's my current view of things 14:47:56 sperry9: ah, you may want to take a look at the pcl then 14:47:59 H4ns: I think Mathematica people talk about M-expressions, though in the normal mathematica way they don't *know* they are talking about M-expressions because of NIH 14:48:39 sperry9: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is the most commonly advised book. also available in dead-tree form. 14:49:17 thanks! 14:50:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:24 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has left #lisp 14:50:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:50:32 sperry9: enjoy your stay :) 14:50:37 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 sperry9: if you haven't read it yet, i think you'll like it, there are a few practical chapters, just great! for example generic binary file reader. 14:56:59 I haven't I am just starting out. I installed clozure cl like half an hour ago 14:57:03 -!- nyef__ [~nyef@pool-70-109-136-189.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Right, time to hit the road.] 14:59:30 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:59:33 see http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050711.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0 too 14:59:54 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.1] 15:00:28 the video is a gentle introduction to some ways to approach things in lisp (using macro for generating parsing code in that example), 20 mins, it's called DSL in Lisp for people here who will recognize it under that name 15:00:30 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.138] has joined #lisp 15:00:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:01:14 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 15:01:20 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:02:45 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02:56 thanks for all the resources, appreciate it 15:03:32 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:32 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:50 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 dim: i doubt the video will indicate *that* much before the watcher has passed through the first ten chapters or so of the PCL. 15:04:59 madnificent: it's been like a teaser for me, I then wanted to read those chapter again with another angle 15:06:16 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 15:06:47 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:53 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 15:06:54 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:15 -!- daniel1 is now known as danielmg 15:07:18 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:29 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 15:08:11 -!- scigod [~sci@111.213.187.17] has left #lisp 15:09:02 giusy [~giusy@net-2-35-110-21.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 ciao 15:09:18 !list 15:09:35 dim: it does make sense then :) 15:09:42 -!- giusy [~giusy@net-2-35-110-21.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 15:09:54 -!- drewc [~user@74.198.150.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:41 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:11:42 -!- niels1 [~niels@p4FD6CDD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:12:21 huh, does postmodern return extensible strings? 15:12:36 *stassats* can't check directly, only has data from postmodern 15:12:57 extensible, as in adjustable 15:12:57 do you mean adjustable? 15:13:00 ah 15:13:12 i can check, hold on. 15:13:38 bubo [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 15:13:51 stassats: yes. 15:14:00 damn 15:14:09 that's... mighty inconvenient 15:14:20 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1219-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:14:58 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-f7b2e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:14:58 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 Shozan [~shozan@c-f7b2e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 even if i will coerce them manually, that means going over all the queries 15:15:36 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:23 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:28 bitonic [~user@dyn1219-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 what i mean, i would prefer that postmodern would make them not adjustable 15:16:59 patches welcome, I bet. 15:17:05 Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:17:06 clhs w-o-t-s 15:17:13 fuck 15:17:35 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 15:17:36 stassats: i guess that postmodern does not know the size of the strings before it reads them from the socket. 15:17:39 redscare1 [~Adium@18.205.1.172] has joined #lisp 15:18:06 yes, i see the code, it uses v-p-e, while it coulde use w-o-t-s 15:18:22 huh, is c-l.net really down? 15:18:32 doesnt w-o-t-s use an adjustable string, too? 15:18:53 downish 15:19:13 ok, then it's not my fault bots are out 15:19:26 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 I don't think it has to be the case that you *can* make non-actually-adjustable strings (ie implementations could make all strings adjustable) 15:20:06 stassats: is it safe to assume that w-o-t-s will always return a non-adjustable string without a fill pointer? 15:20:14 H4ns: not on any of the implementations i tested 15:20:55 tfb: well, of course i don't care about adjustability, just that it is simple 15:21:28 stassats: just out of curiosity, what is the problem that would be sovled by postmodern returning non-adjustable strings? 15:21:41 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:21:45 -!- redscare [~Adium@CP-ONE-THIRTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:21:52 segv_: i store them on disc and in memory, meaning, less space and faster access 15:21:58 stassats: ah, OK, yes, makes sense 15:23:08 I think the pg protocol includes the size of strings before the strings themselves, could postmodern benefit from that here? 15:23:08 sykopomp: as i said above, assuming that is simple, pretty much safe, there's no advantage in implementing w-o-t-s with v-p-e, other than simplicity 15:23:40 w-o-t-s must be with-output-to-string, what's v-p-e? 15:23:46 sykopomp: so, if an implementation i were using would return non-simple strings, i would complain 15:23:51 vector-push-extend 15:23:54 thx 15:24:11 stassats: there should only be one reader for strings and it should be tied to the char/varchar oids 15:24:52 yup, enc-read-string should be the only thing you'd need to change 15:25:10 xscc [~xscc@113.200.85.110] has joined #lisp 15:25:20 and read-utf-8-string 15:25:21 stassats: I would expect that, too. I was just wondering if there was a reading of clhs that would guarantee you get what you expect. 15:25:25 somithng along the lines of (set-sql-reader 18 (lambda () ...)) 15:25:29 which I guess there isn't 15:25:36 i once did some silly benchmarks ond w-o-t-s no ccl and sbcl, and found them surprisingly fast 15:26:06 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:13 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:20 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:27:39 -!- xscc [~xscc@113.200.85.110] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:55 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:29:38 segv_: and the trouble is not in changing it, but in getting it into a release, and then into quicklisp 15:29:48 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:27 -!- daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:33 daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 -!- sperry9 [~sperry@31.45.153.175] has quit [Quit: quit] 15:31:21 -!- daniel2 is now known as danielmg 15:31:22 stassats: you can call set-sql-reader yourself 15:31:23 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:31:38 no need to patch the upsteram (though, given that it knows the size of the string, it's probably a good idea) 15:31:43 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 15:31:51 segv_: char/varchar and text, plus any domain on top of them I suppose? 15:31:54 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:32:26 varchar and text are the same, so it's char, varchar, and any types of your own 15:32:29 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:34 so, yeah, what you said. 15:33:07 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 select oid, typname, typcategory from pg_type where typcategory = 'S'; 15:34:16 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 segv_: enc-read-string is used throughout the code 15:34:24 here I get 9 different data types 15:35:51 stassats: marijnh is pretty good about accepting patches to pomo. 15:36:02 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:36:06 i know, but there's still latency 15:36:08 and create domain foo as text ... makes it a list of 10 data types, so it seems to cope with user data types well enough, I guess 15:36:36 a better query would be select oid, oid::regtype from pg_type where typcategory = 'S'; 15:37:20 ok, i guess i can leave with non-simple-strings for now 15:38:16 rather, live 15:38:26 (or s/with//) 15:40:28 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:43:39 10:27 [07:42:27] dim: therep ;;; I can now answer: t 15:43:48 indeed 15:43:53 (it's 16h43 now here if that helps) 15:44:10 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:23 it was about happy numbers, i wanted to suggest you to cache the results and calculate them each time 15:44:31 makes it about twice as fast 15:44:44 and not calculate 15:45:06 like, memoize previous numbers happiness? 15:45:12 right 15:45:28 let me paste 15:45:33 oh wait, it's down! 15:45:36 damn 15:46:00 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:46:04 well, it should be easy enough to do that by hand, but I've seen libs to do that for you, did you use some? 15:46:27 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:46:30 no, they're too general usually 15:46:33 # 15:46:35 https://gist.github.com/4125554 15:46:37 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:47:11 -!- sepisult1um [r577nypyfs@213.251.184.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:48:42 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 15:49:55 so. twice as fast with a hash table that cuts down the recursion 15:51:01 and the non-recursive solution is also faster, but by as much 15:51:15 load-time-value is *very* interesting 15:51:41 in that case I don't think it's helping, but I like the general idea 15:52:06 what do you mean it's not helping? 15:52:20 you can't remove it, that means it's helping 15:52:48 stassats: of all people, i'd expect you to be the last to still be talking about number happiness 15:53:10 well performance wise you could just make-hash-table in the find-happy-numbers first call when that hash table doesn't exists 15:53:15 -!- tkd_ is now known as tkd 15:53:23 jdz: i just wanted to show dim a few techniques! 15:53:31 and I like that :) 15:53:54 dim: well, but now you can run find-happy-numbers twice, and the second time it will be ten times as fast! 15:55:17 I wonder if replacing the (* remainder remainder) by a cond wouldn't be as good? 15:55:27 stassats: yeah, cache loaded :) 15:55:44 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:55:44 it wouldn't ok 15:55:45 one of the techniques is reading mathworld and finding out that depressed numbers always terminate at (0 4 16 20 37 42 58 89 145) and no need to keep SEEN list 15:56:47 that's your magic then :) 15:56:56 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.168] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 well you save on a few calls, not all of them 15:57:22 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:58:11 well, i've found that seen is only hit only once, that got me to check it, so it's not really making it any fast, just simpler 15:58:12 -!- mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:58:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:05 only once? mmm 15:59:10 now we enter maths 15:59:28 well, it's hit once, and all other times are cahced by the HT 16:00:54 -!- phrixos_ [U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:03 phrixos_ [U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org] has joined #lisp 16:01:36 sepisultrum [axm1kp1y3s@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 16:01:41 oh in your case, then I get it, was hard to understand with my code 16:01:54 I was like "nice, I don't even understand the problem" :) 16:02:54 with a hash table storing intermediate results, it's meant to be replacing the accumulator here 16:03:26 I wonder if the hash table would better store sum-of-squares-of-digits rather than happiness directly? 16:03:27 well, you can replace it with (0 4 16 20 37 42 58 89 145) 16:03:47 and you should really bolt on some comments for your blog 16:04:12 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:23 I like publishing static files, and most comments wouldn't be interesting. interesting comments happen by email and irc 16:04:49 well, of course they do, if you disable them 16:05:02 fair enough 16:05:18 linsy [~ev@46.0.166.152] has joined #lisp 16:05:27 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:27 I just don't want to spend any time on moderating them, and I don't really want to get to hosting a dynamic website 16:05:54 dim: http://blogspot.com/ 16:06:02 :D 16:06:05 hehe 16:06:17 I really like using Muse mode in Emacs for my blog articles 16:06:40 it missed some features and I implemented them, I'm happy now 16:06:53 I don't think adding comments would make me happier about my blog 16:07:20 also, allow me to reference http://prog21.dadgum.com/57.html about comments in a blog 16:07:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-56.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:08:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-56.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:08:29 actually, just checking (0 4 16 20 37 42 58 89 145) makes it almost as fast as with caching 16:09:00 another technique would be using bit-vectors, but i'll leave that as an exercise for the reader 16:09:23 riverc4c [~grive@pool-71-183-214-254.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 well you need a pretty big vector if you want to cope with (happy? 1234567) and such like, right? 16:12:00 but bit-vectors are quite compact 16:12:46 bit-vectors == key as an index in the vector, value is the bit at this offset? 16:12:47 -!- linsy [~ev@46.0.166.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:30 yes, but you'll need two bit-vectors, one for happy, one for unhappy 16:14:07 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 16:14:20 (ash 1 1234567890) is still computing 16:14:42 what's that? 16:15:03 my understanding of a bit-vector, using integers (ash, logbitp) 16:15:11 so that's not what you meant at all? 16:15:23 that's the technique I've been using for my toy sudoku solver 16:15:28 clhs bit-vector 16:15:32 (no clhs, i know!) 16:15:47 see http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/10-solving-sudoku.html 16:16:10 dim: also, it's probably not computing the number, but trying to print it 16:16:30 dim: try (integer-length (ash 1 1234567890)) 16:16:33 ah yes that too 16:16:57 try (1+ 1234567890) 16:17:09 ehu [~ehu@31.137.118.193] has joined #lisp 16:17:39 (LET ((V (ASH 1 1234567890)))) took 8 microseconds (0.000008 seconds) to run. 16:17:49 and that's would take only 150MB 16:18:03 (INTEGER-LENGTH (ASH 1 1234567890)) took 5 microseconds (0.000005 seconds) to run. 16:18:29 (LET ((V (ASH 1 1234567890)))) on sbcl wouldn't run anything, for example 16:18:30 common-lisp.net is back 16:18:49 stassats: but really the maths behind happy numbers are saying that whatever you do the first digits sum is either happy or a member of (0 4 16 20 37 42 58 89 145), right? 16:19:02 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 16:19:21 in ccl I get ;Compiler warnings : ; In an anonymous lambda form: Unused lexical variable V, stassats, not sure if that means it won't even be computed 16:19:26 H4ns: immediately after restart, it started using 100% cpu again. 16:19:30 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:41 H4ns: any idea what that could be? 16:20:07 ehu: it is gitweb 16:20:17 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 16:20:19 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 16:20:20 in fact, even (time (integer-length (ASH 1 1234567890))) wouldn't take any time, it would be computed at compile-time 16:20:21 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:24 on sbcl 16:20:24 i kind of tend to believe that trying to provide a git hosting service does not, erm, make sense. 16:21:09 dim: see http://oeis.org/A039943 16:21:11 H4ns: :-) funny what the implications of that statement for github would be. 16:21:26 ok. well, if it's gitweb, should we kill that service for now? 16:21:27 ehu: for starters, one could try stopping the crawlers to traverse the git repositories. but just reading "gitweb.cgi" in the process list makes me cringe 16:21:38 ehu: it does not make sense _because of_ github. 16:22:00 ehu: i'd say yes. kill gitweb for now. 16:22:21 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 16:22:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:22:39 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:23:12 so it makes only if you're github or gitorious or the like? well, makes sense... :) 16:24:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-4.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 16:24:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-4.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:24:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:24:31 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:31 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:39 clhs list 16:24:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 16:25:02 minion: welcome back! 16:25:03 bitonic` [~user@dyn1192-90.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 thanks! 16:25:34 restarting apache without gitweb. 16:26:00 there's a million bzip2 processes running 16:26:13 are those part of git? 16:26:17 ehu: right. the beauty of linux paired with cgi 16:26:37 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1219-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:54 ehu: part of, no. some crawler made gitweb create like a few hundred tar files with repo snapshots. 16:27:07 and kindly compressing them with bzip2 16:27:30 doesn't it use nofollow or something? 16:27:33 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:27:33 ok. things seem to return to normal now. 16:27:46 minion: version? 16:27:46 This is the minion bot, running on a X86 (Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU 5160 @ 3.00GHz) and running under SBCL 1.0.56. 16:27:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:49 that's snappier 16:27:59 minion: chant 16:27:59 MORE CODE 16:28:08 can't argue with that 16:28:20 sorry for the interruption! I'll look at restoring part of gitweb later, when I understand how to throttle it. 16:28:38 maybe you can just disable tarballs? 16:29:08 i think there should be a robots.txt that keeps crawlers out of parts of the site that are cgi based. 16:29:12 would be an effective first step. yes. I'll look at it. 16:29:28 H4ns: won't keep of idiots, though 16:29:30 off 16:29:43 like that ddoser 16:29:54 H4ns, ehu: i think we once updated that robots.txt file already; H4ns even provided me with mega powers to do it. 16:30:59 mega powers? now you can win an AI compettion! 16:31:00 jdz: but is it still listing the right paths? 16:31:20 I mean, there are automated processes to generate parts of the robots.txt as well. 16:31:25 maybe it's been overwritten? 16:31:35 ehu: i'm looking where i did it, but git log message reads: "Added /gitweb, /viewvc and /stats to robots.txt" 16:31:51 linsy [~ev@46.0.192.150] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:32:03 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 16:32:54 hehe, (LENGTH (FIND-UNDEPRESSED-NUMBERS 1000000)) took 1,036,847 microseconds (1.036847 seconds) to run. 16:33:05 stassats: undepressed is much faster than happy 16:33:32 how about ununundepressed? 16:33:48 I'm not in the mood 16:34:36 I commented on your gist, and will probably have to make another blog entry later :) 16:37:11 damn I can't edit the comment. 16:37:36 it's actually not a static list of unhappies, but the ones at which they will terminate 16:37:47 or rather loop 16:39:28 looks like the robots just don't care about robots.txt 16:39:31 same thing, it's a list of known unhappy numbers where you don't have to continue doing the computing, and it happens to be a list that you reach quite quickly 16:39:32 newbie_coder [4267ffa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.103.255.163] has joined #lisp 16:49:12 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:59 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:50:56 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.118.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:55:26 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.133] has joined #lisp 16:55:28 -!- jtza8 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reset by peer] 17:35:31 bitonic` [~user@dyn1192-90.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:36:20 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:38 -!- linsy [~ev@46.0.192.150] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:39:45 am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:01 john__ [~john@174.158.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:40:03 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-210-238-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:18 myx [~myx@pppoe-210-238-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:40:28 bye all 17:40:34 am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has joined #lisp 17:40:53 sems to work 17:41:17 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:02 'hi all 17:43:05 bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 17:44:06 am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has joined #lisp 17:45:32 ikki [~ikki@187.240.178.2] has joined #lisp 17:46:46 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:25 linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has joined #lisp 17:48:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:49:04 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 am0c_ [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 -!- tfb [~tfb@fw-tnat.cambridge.arm.com] has left #lisp 17:50:33 -!- am0c_ is now known as am0c 17:51:04 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:51:41 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:07 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 17:52:20 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-kezvwmguqioiczyc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:52:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has quit [Quit: am0c] 17:55:22 am0c [~am0c@2001:5c0:1000:b::5099] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:58:21 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 18:00:46 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-206-55.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:49 -!- linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:27 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:01:49 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:12 linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has joined #lisp 18:03:10 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.35] has joined #lisp 18:03:12 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:10:43 -!- qlkzy_ [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:11:23 qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 18:13:29 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:40 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:44 -!- wormphle1m [~wormphleg@50.131.44.231] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:35 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 18:17:23 -!- linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:18:19 -!- asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:19:05 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.60.161] has joined #lisp 18:19:54 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:20:41 linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has joined #lisp 18:21:14 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 18:21:23 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 18:23:30 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 18:24:01 well, the long-running process attempting to clean up/convert/etc... my music collection made it to Led Zeppelin at least... 18:25:22 slyrus: question, is that "L" or "Z", and is alphabetical important/in order here? :) 18:26:26 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:27 well, if it were about Zeta Lisp, it would have been on topic! 18:26:38 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:26:42 (slightly) 18:27:54 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:32:18 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 18:33:24 well, I would probably rather talk to lispers about Led Zeppelin over talking no non-lispers about how to start / PCL / SLIME etc ... So I should probably just shut up in #lisp ... but ... since it is mid-day for Those of us who live here ... : 18:33:46 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@220.Red-79-148-146.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:20 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [] 18:34:22 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 18:34:39 I need to hire another lisp contractor, for part time work. This is web developement using UCW and a postgresql DB. Please /msg me if you are interested an have a wee bit of time on your hands. 18:35:06 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:35:07 UCW, scary! 18:35:11 abeaumont [~abeaumont@220.Red-79-148-146.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:14 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:35:26 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:35:31 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:35:44 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:35:44 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:53 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:37:02 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:37:15 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:37:16 -!- bubo [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:37:20 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:37:33 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:37:38 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:37:52 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:37:56 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:38:08 bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has joined #lisp 18:38:13 -!- bondar [~rukugu@41.72.193.86] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:38:29 drewc: L, unfortunately 18:38:50 stassats: well, it is a long running sbcl process that invariably craps out on me before I finish my library 18:39:22 drewc: damn, sounds great except these days I return home dead tired from job 18:40:01 stassats: It was the first commercial lisp project I was ever involved in, and I still make and support that app... there is just a minor issue ... 18:40:43 I've got a heap exhausted error with a 4G heap. what's the best way to track down the source of my leak? 18:41:15 sprof with :alloc? 18:41:30 slime-sprof-start-alloc in slime-sprof 18:41:55 it's not for leaks, though 18:42:25 I wrote it to be used in an office of 4 in 2004 ... well, it turns out that my app has improved that organsation ... there are now 142 or so users, at least 15 use it all day every day... 18:42:29 is there any way I can inspect the current heap to see what objects are taking up so much memory? 18:42:48 well, there's ROOM 18:42:58 I can recommend the sprof as well ... though usually I just slime-profile-package to see where the memory goes 18:43:04 and ROOM as well 18:43:32 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1192-90.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:43:36 i go foor ROOM first too. it usually gives you a good hint if you're familiar with the code-base. 18:44:06 and, sbcl ... there is a hackey way ... but I cannot remember it and it requires patches to SBCL 18:44:18 hmm... 2,202,111,808 bytes for 4,650 simple-array-unsigned-byte-8 objects 18:44:52 slyrus: do you keep references to the read-in files somewhere? 18:44:56 I thin we found the guilty party. now can I find a way to inspect that list and, perhaps more to the point, so who's holding references to a given array? 18:45:03 madnificent: must be :) 18:45:27 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:19 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:47:34 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.198.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:53 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 18:51:37 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 18:51:40 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:51:55 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:15 gridaphobe [~user@169.228.188.47] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:54:21 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.135] has joined #lisp 18:55:57 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:19 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:56:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:26 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:57:29 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.196.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:37 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:59:03 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.15.178] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:00:13 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 19:00:35 -!- linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:17 linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:04:30 slyrus: I seem to recall a 'heap mapping' tool that I used like 8 years ago or so that would map the sb heap and tell me who was contained in where and what etc ... but that is all I can remember because I just use prof and ROOM these days. 19:04:48 H4ns: fixed the symlink-update errors. 19:05:03 H4ns: cl-net's root should be silent again. 19:05:53 ehu: what is/was happening? I am planning on rync 19:06:02 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 19:06:06 rsyncing the entire FS this weekend .. 19:06:42 drewc: cl-net was unstable. someone started downloading gitweb tarballs. 19:06:50 drewc: so, I disabled the gitweb service. 19:07:09 (the tarballs were nicely being bzip2-ed before sent down the pipe.) 19:07:11 ah 19:08:10 grabola_ [~quassel@83-238-152-110.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 19:10:34 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@219.143.151.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:50 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:11:31 drewc: did you see /q? 19:12:49 sykopomp: no. strangely, I didn't ... let me make sure I am logged in and everything. 19:13:06 oh, I must be, because I am `drewc` 19:13:22 yeah 19:13:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:40 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:07 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 bitonic [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:58 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13FBDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:32 mhm, does this have a standard/library name? http://paste.lisp.org/display/133840 19:21:35 bitonic` [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 -!- bitonic [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:31 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:57 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:23:24 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 clhs mismatch 19:23:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mismat.htm 19:23:54 sigh 19:23:57 thanks stassats 19:24:26 -!- bitonic` [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:02 -!- linsy [~ev@176.214.232.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:25:04 bitonic` [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:36 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:27:00 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:27:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:58 ok. gitweb snapshot downloading disabled. 19:29:06 gitweb installed as fcgi script. 19:29:14 that reduces system load significantly. 19:29:50 if I'm correct, no more than 5 simultaneous fcgi servers will be started, so that automatically throttles the gitweb requests. 19:31:30 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [] 19:31:33 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:32:14 -!- bitonic` [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:58 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:33:00 -!- grabola_ [~quassel@83-238-152-110.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:31 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.73.228] has joined #lisp 19:36:11 maybe you could change bzip to gzip? 19:37:01 stassats: that will simply allow more requests to be answered. That doesn't solve the fact that the server goes on its knees due to requested snapshots. 19:37:30 sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-17-248.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-14-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:24 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 19:38:49 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 19:39:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:57 -!- bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 19:48:40 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@cek27.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 19:50:14 AeroNotix [~xeno@cek27.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.60.161] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:58:12 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:58:17 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:06 ehu: can't you just blacklist the offending crawlers ? 19:59:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-001.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:35 having snapshots is quite useful 20:02:46 bitonic` [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:06 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:17 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 fe[nl]ix: sure. but there was a bit of a chicken and egg problem: the system got down to a crawl because of the crawlers. 20:07:04 so, I could not find too many IPs to block. 20:08:17 but I guess I could try turning snapshots back on now that the cgi is running in the fcgi server environment. 20:08:19 use robots.txt 20:08:42 disallow: /gitweb/ 20:08:51 it's already there. 20:08:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-56.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:09:07 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:09:45 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-96-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:09:51 Ralt__ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:10:47 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:11:34 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:35 <|3b|> ehu: is that trailing / supposed to be there? 20:13:26 |3b|: http://www.robotstxt.org/robotstxt.html says "Disallow: /cgi-bin/" 20:13:30 so, I guess it does. 20:14:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-56.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:15:34 <|3b|> /cgi-bin is a directory though, while gitweb looks like it is used as /gitweb?... rather than /gitweb/... 20:16:26 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:33 |3b|: you're entirely correct. 20:16:43 it should not have that trailing slash. 20:16:54 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@cek27.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:17:21 jdz: ^^^^ 20:17:33 findiggle2 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:54 nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-102-77-158.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 -!- Ralt__ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:18:20 AeroNotix [~xeno@aqs30.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:18:48 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:55 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-102-77-158.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:39 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:54 -!- bitonic` [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:36 -!- jtza8 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[~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:00:27 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-210-238-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:52 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 22:02:06 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:02:43 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:25 redscare [~Adium@18.189.10.121] has joined #lisp 22:04:36 senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:39 -!- Rackmount [~frogsicle@173.240.222.2] has quit [Quit: Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone!!!] 22:06:03 cockatrice [~bluebaron@50.40.243.209] has joined #lisp 22:06:39 I'm new to lisp. I can see that #' is used for functions and ' is used for variables, but what is the functional difference between them, if any? 22:07:32 #'a is short for (function a), 'a is short for (quote a). you can look up those special forms in the hyperspec. they are pretty different, it's just that most functions that accept functions (as obtained by (function foo)) also accept their names (as by (quote foo)). 22:07:58 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 22:08:13 common lisp is a lisp-2, so with any variable there can be a function value and a normal value associated. #' selects the function value 22:08:29 I don't know what the hyperspec is but I'll google it and come back if I'm still in the dark 22:09:00 The hyperspec is a nice-to-browse version of the language standard. 22:09:21 Hi in sbcl, (or clisp or ecl), when stepping into a function that calls other functions, the stepper will enter those other functions which sometimes is not what you want. You want to step oevr them. in GDB there comes the difference between step and next. but in sbcl at least I don't see that difference between step and next 22:10:45 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:48 -!- sellout [~Adium@pool-71-175-17-248.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:25 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:20 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 22:12:30 um, aren't the step-next and step-into exactly that distinction? 22:12:39 (and step-out is like gdb's "finish") 22:12:45 cockatrice: what QUOTE does is basically say "this is data", because there needs to be some way for the system to know what is data and what should be evaluated in Lisp. What FUNCTION does is say "this is a function", which is a little more subtle because "this" can be the name of a function but also it can be a list beginning with LAMBDA which is a special thing 22:13:44 tfb: Could you show me an example of how this would affect code or the different usages? 22:13:49 myx [~myx@pppoe-213-52-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 22:13:57 I found the hyperspec but I don't know exactly what to look for 22:14:04 the definitions for quote and function. 22:14:31 but, an example: (defun foo () 'bar) (flet ((foo () 'baz)) (print (funcall 'foo)) (print (funcall #'foo)) nil) 22:15:02 -!- homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:15:13 The first funcall, that receives the symbol, treats it as a global function name and looks up the function in the global environment. The second uses the locally defined function. So BAR BAZ is printed. 22:15:25 cockatrice: Wel, QUOTE first. (print (+ 1 2)) will: call + on 1 and 2, and then print them. (print (QUOTE (+ 1 2)) will: get a literal list consisting of +, 1, 2, and print that 22:15:56 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.189.10.121] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:22 function is harder, because as Bike said above, a lot of things that want functions as argument are willing to take names and look them up 22:16:29 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-148-53.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:37 That helped a lot, thanks you guys. 22:16:38 cockatrice: or you could just look at the types. (type-of 'foo) => SYMBOL, (type-of #'foo) => FUNCTION 22:17:20 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c25fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:33 Bike: if I would have known I could do that, I probably would have by now. Can you recommend a good lisp tutorial? I'm currently reading http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ <-- that one but sometimes they provide examples using code that hasn't been discussed yet 22:17:49 I can't think of an easy place where FUNCTION is essential which is not also a little obscure 22:18:06 tfb: lambdas? 22:18:35 cockatrice: lisp is big, it's hard to keep track of it all or teach it all. that book is pretty great; there's also A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computation but I haven't read it 22:19:07 Bike: yes, what I was thinking of was something like, erm (funcall (let ((x 1)) '(lambda () x))) vs (funcall (let ((x 1)) #'(lambda () x))), but I think that is obscure 22:19:18 Bike: Alrighty then, thanks for the advice. I'll just continue reading this then. 22:19:21 -!- tfshfz [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:01 tfb: (funcall '(lambda ...) ...) not working, maybe? it's a tricky issue in any case 22:20:02 cockatrice: I think if you understand the example I just gave in response to Bike, you probably understand Lisp 22:20:47 tfb: I think I do partially 22:20:57 I guess it's probably less confusing than old Lisps where funcalling a list would actually work 22:23:12 -!- segv_ [~mb@dslb-088-075-117-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv_] 22:23:22 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 22:23:34 -!- daniel1 is now known as danielmg 22:23:40 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 22:24:02 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.102.160] has joined #lisp 22:25:03 Bike: cockatrice: I screwed up. I meant the following (does lisppaste not work now?) (defun good () 22:25:04 (funcall (let ((x 1)) 22:25:04 #'(lambda () x)))) 22:25:04 (defun bad () 22:25:04 (funcall (coerce (let ((x 1)) 22:25:04 '(lambda () x)) 22:25:04 'function))) 22:26:38 What does coerce do? 22:26:47 clhs coerce 22:26:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 22:26:50 And I'm pretty sure I understand the first one now 22:26:51 Krystof: this as an example but maybe I am doing it wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133842 22:26:59 cockatrice: it twists your arm until you give it money 22:27:15 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 22:27:17 sykopomp: D: 22:27:32 -!- daniel1 is now known as danielmg 22:27:48 when the fist step goes into (expt ... , the next goes into the helper. I was expecting it not to go there 22:27:51 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 22:32:04 Tangential comment to the stuff on FUNCTION and QUOTE: I've been writing a bunch of JS (node.js). Node is actually fine, but if I had a time machine I would go back and make sure JS never was born. CL may be a hack but is has a coherent story about scope and types and, just, anything at all compared to JS. 22:33:14 tfb: if you are concerned about the story of scope in JS, don't look at coffeescript. it's even worse 22:33:34 at least JS has a way of locally restricting scope of variables without driving you insane 22:33:37 lol the first JS implementation was in CL so the inventor knew better 22:33:53 CS pulls them into the topmost function scope. makes for /great/ memory leaks. 22:37:22 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:39:11 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aqs30.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:42:01 homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has joined #lisp 22:43:10 -!- homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:11 homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.217] has joined #lisp 22:45:50 -!- kilon_alios is now known as kilon 22:45:51 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.93.19.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Changing host] 22:45:51 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 22:47:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:47:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:42 -!- homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:49:17 -!- cockatrice [~bluebaron@50.40.243.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:01 antifuchs: I think I am OK, because when I make JS never have existed, then coffescript will presumably vanish with it. I can live with the tentacled horrors this will unleash: they are quite susceptable to suitcase nukes, it turns out 22:50:43 current status: being eternally grateful that the human mind is unable to correlate all facts in the cosmos 22:53:06 hi 22:53:40 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 22:54:58 I have emacs set up to start slime automatically when I edit a lisp file, via a script I found on clicki. It is quite annoying however that slime opens on the left while the file is on the right. Could I have that reversed somehow? 22:55:26 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:59 shwouchkster: I think that's some window layout thing in emacs. I am having similar problems with my current emacs config, and don't know how to solve them (sorry) (: 22:56:16 antifuchs, :\ 22:56:18 shwouchkster: if you ask on #emacs, maybe they can help you 22:56:33 (my problems are a bit more and less specific) (: 22:56:44 homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has joined #lisp 22:56:44 -!- homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:50 antifuchs, did, well see how it goes, thanks :) 22:57:02 good luck (: 22:57:09 One important difference between a function and a function designator, is WHEN the function is resolved. With #'f, the compiler can generate the reference to the function inline (in a compilation-unit), or at least, a direct reference to the function. With 'f, it goes thru the symbol, and if the fbinding changes (at run-time), then you get the new fbinding with 'f, but the old function with #'f. 22:57:09 likewise 22:57:16 shwouchkster: your problem is that you restart emacs :) 22:57:35 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:39 pavelpenev, :) 22:58:26 pavelpenev, on that line of thought, do you know how to kill a in inferior lisp running in emacs? 22:58:53 shwouchkster: ,quit on the SLIME repl will do it 22:59:05 also, killing the *inferior-lisp* buffer should kill it 22:59:12 homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has joined #lisp 22:59:15 shwouchkster: slime-quit-lisp? 22:59:17 This is significant eg. in reader macros. If you plan to redefine the reader macro function (because you're testing and debugging it), pass (lambda (stream ch) (funcall 'my-reader-macro stream ch)) to set-macro-character. (you could also try to pass directly 'my-reader-macro to set-macro-character, but it's not specified when it should resolve the designator). 22:59:52 pavelpenev, thanks. I kept searching for 'kill' and couldn't fine anything relevant... 23:00:15 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 23:03:14 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:04:09 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 23:04:09 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 23:04:09 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 23:04:19 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:14 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.62.75] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:50 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:59 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 23:07:24 -!- nitro_idiot_ [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:08:13 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:32 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:08:58 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 23:11:24 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-039-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:12:36 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:33 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 23:19:34 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@95-079.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:16 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 23:21:24 -!- daniel1 is now known as danielmg 23:21:32 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 23:23:35 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:25:29 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:25:45 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:26:10 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-10-184.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:28:04 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:43 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-44-53.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:12 -!- homie [~homie@94.123.220.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29:20 gridapho` [~user@128.54.51.43] has joined #lisp 23:29:57 question 23:30:03 -!- gridapho` is now known as gridaphobe` 23:30:59 -!- gridaphobe [~user@169.228.188.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:31:26 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:44 answer 23:31:50 I find that I tend to write a lot of code inside let* statements - i.e. set variable1 on some calc from input, then var2 on some calc from var2 etc etc, until at the end I am just left with a variable containing what I want to return in the function 23:32:08 It happens, sometimes. 23:32:16 I have a feeling that this is not the way let* was intended to be used 23:32:26 Sure. Why not. 23:32:28 or is it not considered bad style? 23:32:59 don't know, something inside revolts a little bit against this 23:33:11 maybe it shouldn't though 23:33:13 shwouchkster: you have to consider that LET and LET* are only ways to give _names_ to subexpressions. Don't consider those names as naming "variables" (ie. don't use setf on them). 23:34:00 Otherwise, (let* ((a e1) (b (e2 a)) (c (e3 a b))) c) == (e3 e1 (e2 e1)) ; so you could also not use any variable. 23:34:53 Also, if you feel compeled to name subexpressions, perhaps they could be reusable functions? 23:34:55 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.102.160] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 23:34:57 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:36:15 doubt they would be reusable outside the specific function, but perhaps I can put them in a function 23:36:32 pjb why not setf? (not that I do) 23:36:53 Without setf, it's easier to prove it's correct (functionnal programming paradygm). 23:37:10 shwouchkster: if you use setf, you tend to have to think harder to figure out what the value in the variable is. 23:37:32 pjb: wouldn't be flet and labels be the naming of subexpressions, and let and let* be the naming of values? 23:38:20 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:39:25 good points 23:39:46 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:10 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:42:20 Joreji [~thomas@95-079.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 In (+ (* 3 4) (/ 5 6)), (* 3 4) and (/ 5 6) are subexpressions. I can name them a and b, and write (+ a b) instead. 23:42:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-206-55.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:43:00 both (let ((a (* 3 4)) (b (/ 5 6))) (+ a b)) and (+ (* 3 4) (/ 5 6)) will compile to the same bit pattern. 23:43:33 You would use functions if an expression could be generalized/parameterized. 23:43:52 pjb: yes, but if you write (+ a a) then the value of a will be calculated only once, hence the subexpression isn't maintained, the result is maintained. with flet, (+ (a) (a)) would be different. 23:44:21 Ie. if you have (+ (* 3 4) (* 3 5)) you could (flet ((triple (x) (* 3 x))) (+ (triple 4) (triple 5))) instead of (let ((a (* 3 4)) (b (* 3 5))) (+ a b)). 23:45:06 madnificent: even with (+ (f 4) (f 4)), f could be called only once, if the compiler can determine that there are no side effects (which it can easily for functions in CL). 23:45:35 pjb: and ... 23:46:06 Loplin [~Loplin@CPE-65-26-211-6.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:17 I'm considering functional programming style here. 23:46:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:47:30 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:49:04 I am struggling with another error message that I can't find the cause of. Would someone mind taking a look at this code and output and pointing me in the right direction? http://paste.lisp.org/+2V9X 23:49:51 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:50:01 The code is supposed to be adding the distances between the points (given as a list of (x,y) tuples) together 23:50:02 Loplin: you don't need the inner quote 23:50:21 Loplin: (answer-2 '((0 0) (1 0 ) ...)) is what you intend to say 23:50:39 Oh 23:50:47 Why is that? 23:51:04 Why isn't (0 0) interpretted as a function in this case? 23:51:08 you're quoting the quotation. (car ''(0 0)) => QUOTE 23:51:23 Loplin: '(foo) expands to (quote foo), which quotes the argument given to it (thus it isn't evaluated). if you write a quote inside a quote, it's like saying nesting the quote statements 23:51:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@95-079.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:51:45 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:51:50 *pavelpenev* used to be a pretty disciplined fp programmer, while learning clojure. setf and clos have spoiled him. 23:52:07 Loplin: and thus lisp sees '((quote (0 0)) (quote (1 0)) ...) 23:53:38 -!- pjb [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has quit [Quit: Cinderella's limit.] 23:53:52 So, (0 0) would normally try to execute 0 with the 0 argument, but putting '((0 0)) prevents it from attempting to evaluate the contents? 23:54:47 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54:59 Or rather, items in a list aren't evaluated unless I refer to them separately? 23:55:02 Loplin: writing (quote (0 0)) would prevent it to evaluate the contents. the reader sees '(0 0) and transforms that to (quote (0 0)). and the reader doesn't really know what it's transforming. 23:55:46 Loplin: the items in that list are not evaluated, they are literals. if you'd write (car '((+ 1 2))) == (+ 1 2), not 3 23:56:03 Loplin: however, for your numbers, it works. '0 is the same as 0 23:56:28 Loplin: eg: (eql '0 0) 23:56:35 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:57:13 madnificent, thank you 23:57:27 Loplin: also try (eq 'foo (quote foo)) or (equal '('foo) '((quote foo))) 23:57:53 Loplin: you're welcome, i hope it clarified things up 23:58:29 (defmacro no-eval (form) `(quote ,form)) :) 23:59:18 maybe it would be more useful to explicitly pass things to eval. like (eval (list 'quote (list (list 'quote (list 0 0))))) and such 23:59:20 -!- findiggle2 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:59:35 or (defun thing 'foo (+ quote foo)) (thing 1 2) => 3