00:00:08 qlkzy [~user@86.135.233.182] has joined #lisp 00:01:28 tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 00:02:22 segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-103-190-27.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:49 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:10 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:18 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:11:26 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:12:20 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: bleeding] 00:12:35 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:13:06 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@host81-156-69-168.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:15:04 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 00:17:31 -!- chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 00:19:38 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:02 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:41 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ijshhnfvsphhkvpu] has joined #lisp 00:20:46 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:23 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:22:36 stassats`, herep? 00:22:57 *Fare* hacked better asdf support for slime and is hoping for it to be integrated upstream. 00:23:31 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.247.10] has joined #lisp 00:25:00 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:25:09 -!- hohum_ [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:26:29 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 00:29:33 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:56 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:53 any slime committer around? 00:35:30 -!- pmai [~pmai@2001:470:1f15:3df:9c55:8984:dc2f:a20e] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:43 pmai [~pmai@178-27-46-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:42:01 i'm here 00:42:16 does it support asdf1? 00:47:48 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:51:54 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 00:53:02 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 00:56:09 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~textual@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:56:58 ArmyOfBruce [~textual@69.164.192.175] has joined #lisp 00:58:05 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:01:40 tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 01:04:11 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 01:05:56 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:11:02 no, it does not support asdf1. 01:11:08 I could, but that would be harder 01:11:13 actually, it mostly supports asdf1 01:11:26 just (1) would have to remove an explicit check for asdf2 01:11:30 (2) actually test it. 01:11:42 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.247.10] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 01:11:46 (3) probably add some more compatibility version of functions 01:12:35 (4) probably turn #+asdf2 into a runtime check so that swank-asdf doesn't behave badly if asdf2 is installed after swank is compiled. 01:13:06 note that I just updated the patch to better deal with update-after-swank-was-compiled. 01:13:34 does anyone still use asdf 1, really? 01:13:44 it's wholly unsupported 01:15:21 on the other hand, I support all versions of asdf 2 back to 2.000, from 2010-05-31 01:15:25 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:19:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:20:13 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 01:20:15 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:20:56 stassats`, any question? 01:23:08 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 01:26:10 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.255.65] has joined #lisp 01:28:16 kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:36 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:43 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:29:44 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 01:31:39 well, i guess if people can update slime, then they can update asdf as well 01:32:02 so, where can i find these changes? 01:32:12 especially since asdf 2 was *designed* to be upgradable after the fact 01:32:15 (unlike asdf 1) 01:32:19 which changes? 01:32:39 it's all on the bug page: https://bugs.launchpad.net/slime/+bug/1077378 01:32:40 SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:44 pick the latest diff 01:33:20 there are so many different versions of asdf 1 that were once in the wild, that the sanest thing to do is to just upgrade to asdf 2. 01:33:41 alright, i see it now 01:33:54 rather than support each and every version of asdf 1, when there was no declared version at the time, and several implementation-dependent modifications 01:36:49 I removed several internal functions that are non-sensical in this new swank-asdf 01:37:07 basically, I modify component-pathname to register the component. 01:37:19 does it really need asdefs? 01:37:32 it does, if you want to support older versions of asdf 2. 01:38:18 oh boy 01:38:19 at what point do you want to draw the line of "not supported anymore"? 01:38:36 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has joined #lisp 01:38:46 well, i myself don't really use swank-asdf that much, so, it's up to the users 01:39:10 i'd be happy with "the latest version", but then there will be tons of angry mails 01:39:29 especially bad since quicklisp ships with 2.014.6 01:39:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@134.61.66.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:51 ha, i don't use quicklisp either! 01:39:57 admittedly, quicklisp prefers the implementation's (require :asdf) result when it's more recent 01:40:43 but that still leaves a lot of implementations lagging. 01:40:47 well, alright, i'll test it a bit and apply it, and we'll see what happens 01:40:56 thanks a whole lot 01:41:04 I'm here to support it, if people find bugs. 01:41:18 also, it uses two lines of message line when I compile 01:41:43 what do you mean? 01:42:11 I might have introduced a slight bug, or it might be that slime does it already 01:42:34 when I C-c C-k, the message line grows to two lines. 01:42:37 I don't know why 01:42:42 you mean the minibuffer is two lines high? compile what? 01:42:50 yes, minibuffer 01:42:53 anything 01:43:11 and what are these lines? 01:43:25 only happens when my window is 80 columns long 01:44:03 when I have it at 120 columns long, it's normal 01:44:10 I guess it's not my patch that does that 01:44:17 but it's slightly annoying. 01:44:23 just the usual line 01:44:24 that'll happen if it can't fit it, right 01:44:46 but that's plenty of trailing spaces that it can't fit, apparently 01:45:01 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:01 well, that's a question for Emacs 01:48:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:58 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:49:10 one thing i can help with is change [0.1 secs] to [0.1 sec] 01:49:32 as it's the proper abbreviation 01:51:10 of course, "s" would be even better 01:51:30 but some conservative people might not like it, so, one letter at a time 01:52:11 I don't even see trailing spaces in the *Messages* buffer, so I'm baffled why it's taking two lines 01:52:42 OH: it looks like a *previous* message took two lines, then was hidden... 01:53:11 Fontifying *slime-compilation*... (regexps.......................................................) 01:53:24 oh, that's easy 01:53:58 how do I fix that? 01:54:27 (and that explains why if I have more than 98 columns, it takes only one line) 01:54:31 good night everyone 01:54:44 -!- Blkt [~user@62.10.10.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:25 jeti [~user@p548EBA98.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:51 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58:39 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58:39 well, it is easy, but i can't find it in my .emacs, damn 02:00:21 Fare: (setq font-lock-verbose nil) 02:01:02 i only found it through google (inside my own email answer on slime-devel, incidentally) 02:01:29 i have no idea why it's not in my .emacs anymore and is still nil 02:01:48 -!- qlkzy [~user@86.135.233.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01:56 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:02:31 looks like its default was changed in 24.1 02:02:33 tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 02:03:26 whoever thought that it should be t... 02:04:38 "who ever", that is 02:06:48 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:09:54 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ijshhnfvsphhkvpu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:12:46 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-223-226-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:17 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:27 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:14:57 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.72.32.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:39 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:32 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-lezxllkhiktsuvto] has joined #lisp 02:25:17 stassats`, can you tell me if/when you commit my patch? 02:27:54 tomorrow 02:29:09 thanks! 02:29:28 unless it doesn't work and i can't fix it, of course 02:29:36 of course 02:29:57 I tested it some with various versions of asdf from 2.000, so it should hopefully work. 02:30:31 jfe [~jfe@24.191.231.92] has joined #lisp 02:33:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-129-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:34:58 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:26 [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 02:36:52 -!- confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:53 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:03 -!- pegu [~user@c242C76D9.static.as2116.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:19 pegu [~user@c242C76D9.static.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:16 confab [~confab@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:18 -!- milanj 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[~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 04:05:30 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@82.155.60.57] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 04:08:18 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@209.157.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:08:39 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:35 orthecreedence [~kvirc@c-67-160-203-165.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:27 Kvaks [~kvaks@233.156.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 04:16:01 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-223-226-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:37 p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 04:19:33 z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has joined #lisp 04:19:45 hola 04:21:00 -!- p_nathan1 [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:08 was wondering how I might go about sorting a sequence of mixed-type elements in alphanumeric order 04:21:34 Alphanumeric order meaning what? 04:21:41 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:23:09 the way common commands lis ls(1) do with files/dirs; so like (1.0 42 a1b "b2c") 04:23:35 that's called "natural sort" 04:23:46 okay :) 04:23:47 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 04:23:55 You'll want to write a predicate and pass that into the sort function 04:24:05 maybe (sort seq #'string< :key #'write-to-string)? 04:24:33 hmm - lemme try that... 04:27:13 well, yes, that kinda works; guess it assumes strings comes before numbers 04:28:19 oh right, (write-to-string "foo") => "\"foo\"" 04:28:29 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 04:28:52 my thought was to create subsequences of the various types, sort, then glue back together 04:29:00 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-67-180.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:21 that's probably not necessary. you could wrap a *string-escape* change to avoid the thing I just mentioned, or just write your own predicate and use that. 04:29:30 as long as you can define an order on the objects you can use sort. 04:29:34 would be easy enough to re-order this output though; thanks 04:33:30 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:36:06 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:11 -!- jfe [~jfe@24.191.231.92] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:38:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:30 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 04:41:40 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:45:40 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 04:46:09 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-134-31.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:07 -!- z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has quit [Quit: That's it for today] 04:50:15 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-103-190-27.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53:59 albert-irc 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joined #lisp 10:34:19 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@82.155.60.57] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 10:35:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:35:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:36:03 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.110.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:37:54 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:40:47 srcerer [~chatzilla@63.196.107.132] has joined #lisp 10:40:52 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-182.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:42:48 cornihilio [~cornihili@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:43:59 hiteki [~user@2a01:e35:2ed9:5530:211:24ff:febf:9313] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 just out of curiosity, how hard is it getting a lisp job? I'd really like to work with a powerful language full time, and I guess I'm stuck wondering what the job market of lisp is like compared to haskell 10:44:19 well and more than that I want to work with some super smart people :) 10:44:33 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:34 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.110.85] has joined #lisp 10:45:27 -!- hiteki [~user@2a01:e35:2ed9:5530:211:24ff:febf:9313] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:03 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:36 robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has joined #lisp 10:47:13 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 10:47:51 best way is to start your own job 10:49:51 doomlord [~doomlod@109.151.246.226] has joined #lisp 10:49:53 you mean contracting? or a website or something? 10:51:00 contracting, startups, etc. etc. 10:51:31 there are lisp jobs out there, but they aren't very common... otoh, quite a lot of clients don't care what language you use, they care about delivering on promises 10:52:11 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:33 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.253] has joined #lisp 10:53:52 what sort of clients are you talking about? are you talking about making in-house software for them, or running a service on your systems for them 10:55:39 idk, I guess that's a good suggestion but I feel a bit to incompetent to take that leap 10:55:40 both - there's quite a lot of clients who either a) don't have needs that require specific technology (like scrooges that want to use cheap PHP+MySQL hosting) b) Will use a flexible enough setup that doesn't constrain language choice c) Don't care as long as it works and fits requirements and price 10:56:17 would you recommend how I'd find customers? 10:56:20 whether you provide a hosted service or something running locally, boxed or in-house - is secondary 10:56:32 cornihilio: unfortunately that's classic issue of any contractor :) 10:56:38 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.43] has joined #lisp 10:56:42 but small business might be least picky, in certain ways 10:57:02 also, on the web no one knows you're dog^W lisp-based service :) 10:57:04 Joreji [~thomas@66-102.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:51 :D 10:58:35 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:59:18 cornihilio: there are also cases like Secure Outcomes, where they ship lisp-based software as part of a whole turn-key solution, in their case a fingerprint scanner (so they control hw and sw together) 10:59:48 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:59:55 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:01 you could sell Lisp-based software for SME that could come as small server boxes that can be just connected to customer network, for example 11:00:02 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 11:01:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:23 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 11:02:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:04:07 Lisp can be a very, very big force multiplier in some cases 11:04:45 (and not only lisp - but it's sometimes a gateway drug to the riches of less 'mainstream' PLs) 11:09:43 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:26 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 11:13:05 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:54 w37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has joined #lisp 11:17:27 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:19:11 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.43] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 11:22:56 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:35:39 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.114.110.85] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 11:39:34 nan_ [~candodget@46.197.116.88] has joined #lisp 11:40:35 -!- nan_ [~candodget@46.197.116.88] has left #lisp 11:50:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:51:58 bitonic [~user@81.149.254.17] has joined #lisp 11:54:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 11:58:28 -!- bitonic [~user@81.149.254.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:01:55 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:02:36 benny [~user@i577A1743.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:06:52 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.241.239] has joined #lisp 12:10:59 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 bitonic [~user@dyn1204-162.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:12:17 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1204-162.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:52 bitonic [~user@dyn1204-162.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:41 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:54 cornihilio: check out http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ 12:21:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-73.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:23:38 cornihilio: also, if you aren't picky about which lisp you want to use, clojure seems to have a bit more new job opportunities. But it's still best to just be your own boss, you wouldn't be using lisp if following orders and doing what you're "supposed to do" came naturally to you :) 12:25:53 also my theory is that it's probably better to become an expert in a handful of domains, and just happen to use lisp to solve problems in them, rather than label your self as a lisp programmer, it's probably better to be a "web expert" who writes lisp, than a lisper who writes web apps. 12:28:39 teggi_ [~teggi@113.173.18.179] has joined #lisp 12:29:35 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:30:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-102.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:31:10 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.160.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:33:17 pavelpenev: Not sure why using Lisp has some sort of rebel identity with it... I just like S-Expressions. 12:33:25 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:33:47 ludston: less "rebel", more "small skunkworks teams" 12:35:27 what i read is, lisp is a hacker langauge rather than a team language because of macros. a programmer using lisp shapes it to his own mind(macros="versatile"). a team language is more homogeneous across the sourcebase, ("plain","inflexible") 12:36:04 mainstream projects == disposable deeloppers writing uniform code 12:37:08 doomlord: this is true to the extent of usage. it is possible to use lisp in teams, but it requires discipline on the behalf of the team. the language and its ecosystem is not very supportive towards team development 12:37:16 to me any language that isn't PHB friendly is a bit rebel oriented(whatever the hell that means). People used to(and many still do) think python was a rebel language. 12:38:08 pavelpenev: What's PHB? 12:38:15 Pointy Haired Boss 12:38:17 antoszka: pointy haired boss 12:38:22 ah. 12:39:21 C++ is considered a "team language", yet it probably requires more discipline to use it in a team than lisp. 12:40:00 Lisp can be as phb friendly as any other language though, in terms of structure and practices. The fall is lack of popularity which is due to our lack of useable professional grade libraries. 12:40:10 pavelpenev: right. but there is loads of prior art with team development in c++. you can find lots of help with that. not so much with lisp. 12:40:43 H4ns: well, now we have http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml :) 12:40:45 lieburies, that is where they bury the lies 12:40:49 pavelpenev: hoo-ray! 12:40:53 Other than our web libraries and database libraries, we're a bit sparse. 12:41:14 ludston: to be PHB-compatible, you need only one thing - trade press 12:41:38 technology doesn't matter, shiny colour magazines for PHBs do 12:41:55 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:42:04 On that thought, wouldm 12:42:20 even PG wrote about it, actually 12:42:48 *Wouldn't it be hilarious if we ran a huge ProLisp campaign in the tech media and converted a bunch of people 12:43:07 Until it actually became main-stream (*shudder*) 12:43:16 r.e. the above observation - by contrast, I think pure-functional code (which lisp can do) would suit team development more than imperative code. 12:43:17 ludston: have you seen some of the lisp advertising from the 80's? 12:43:22 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 12:43:46 i dont have any proof of that, but i think that pure-functional code means the scope of changes in a sourcebase are clearer 12:43:56 less scope for one person to amage somethin someone else did 12:43:59 ludston: we hitched the ride with AI people who overpromised (Minsky...aaargh) and still suffer the burn 12:44:03 and more self-documenting etc 12:44:25 Is Minsky still alive? 12:44:39 (That bastard) 12:45:14 Apparently so. 12:45:29 doomlord: I would think that team friendlyness has more to do with how easy it is to get new people up to speed. Having the code be maintainable is good regardless of how many people work on it. 12:45:40 shwouchkie [~shwouchk@bzq-82-81-169-201.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:08 It's funny how popularity is more of a social thing than a code quality thing 12:46:44 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.169] has joined #lisp 12:47:11 I have seen java code that is much harder to get in despite having code-specific IDE extensions than similar lisp code 12:47:24 Java won on the team coding IMV, because when you hire a very crappy Java developper you take very small risks. With a (reader) macro at the wrong place a lisp junior can be very harmful to a project, sayth the anti-rebels 12:48:02 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-49.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:02 java won because colour magazines 12:48:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:48:24 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:48:44 dim: It depends on the culture of your workplace. With unit test/code reviews/sbcl to catch bugs, one crappy dev shouldn't spoil the broth. 12:49:01 of course if you know what you're doing you don't need Java 12:49:06 that's not the salespitch, though 12:49:11 -!- ml__ [~ml@p3E9E28B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:41 I recently watched this presentation: http://oredev.org/2012/sessions/programmer-anarchy Where the management pretty much let the programmers completely loose, and they rewrote a C# code base in ruby, then in clojure and then rewrote it again in even better clojure, and apparently the company is very profitable. 12:49:41 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:47 well, java offered some interesting advantages in 1.0/1.1 days to some 12:49:51 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.7] has joined #lisp 12:50:15 pavelpenev: requires good understanding and team 12:50:39 Jasko [~Jasko@174.59.201.95] has joined #lisp 12:50:44 p_l|work: Dev on windows, run on Sun you mean? 12:51:03 ludston: and several other systems 12:51:05 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.110.85] has joined #lisp 12:51:07 Windows actually came later, afaik 12:51:24 also, bundling of JRE with Netscape 12:52:09 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 300 seconds.] 12:52:21 to this day, java is used for certain kinds of rich clients... and the only real competition is flash, which isn't supported everywhere - while JS is too wildly fragmented for the market 12:52:26 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 12:52:53 Thought experiment. What would it take to make CL as competitive as Clojure? 12:53:39 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:21 Marketing? (there already is ABCL) 12:54:25 ludston: these days? Numbers, fame, and some high-profile use case and probably a bit more in terms of library availability - not just lisp libraries, but how you can find them, download, manage, publish, and better tutorials on making CFFI bindigns 12:54:39 most of that is marketing in the end and pure numbers to generate buzz 12:54:54 ludston: you need to have a small team of great public speakers, who can invent cool terms like "complect" and who are not afraid to make grandiose claims about THE ONE WAY TO DO IT IS WITH IMMUTABILITY. 12:55:24 well clojure is all immutability, CL does not care, IIUC 12:55:26 the difference with CL is that Clojure didn't have much old stuff googleable around ;) 12:55:46 i do beleive immutability is helpful, i.e. when you change a peice of code, you can see what else it affects more directly through the callgraph 12:55:46 clojure is awesome, but the reason it's gotten popular has nothing to do with its awesomeness, and everything to do with rich being a great speaker. 12:56:06 I've read a limiting factor for Lisp is "who wants to be using the same tools as his grand father?" 12:56:26 yes, mostly social stuff 12:56:39 also, some of the succesful projects are quite reclusive 12:56:41 doomlord: so do I, but clojure is designed to potty train java coders into using it, so it's a bit annoying to lispers. 12:56:46 you don't see big PR splashes from them 12:56:49 I also like Clojures {:maps "As primitives"} and [Arrays too] 12:56:57 +1^ 12:57:03 if you do, they are at Lisp conferences, not outside 12:57:24 and biggest lisp conference is iirc heavily academically slanted 12:57:25 its like the power of json, and it fits well with lisp imo, its ability to make DSLS, and mix code/data 12:57:36 the literal maps/arrays are brilliant 12:57:53 doomlord: I'm actually not sure on maps and arrays syntax 12:58:02 I'd rather go with classic reader macros 12:58:06 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.213.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:58:16 i also like clojure's funcallable objects whcih makes negotiating daatastructures much more tolerable... the loss of ". operator" from c-like hurts more than prefix maths 12:58:45 p_l|work: Those are all very well and good, but for quick and dirty AND for readability they're harder work. 12:58:54 someone said readermacros can do literal maps, would you create something like #m(......) ? 12:58:56 well, we have funcallable objects as well 12:59:12 ludston: we are mainly missing reader for k/v 12:59:51 someone told me reader macros could implement { :key value } is that true? or would it be like #m(....) , not so bad 13:00:07 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 doomlord: I've seen #{:key value} macros float around. 13:00:38 -!- shwouchkie [~shwouchk@bzq-82-81-169-201.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:00:48 If it's possible, it'd be fun to make all of clojure functionality using reader macros in ABCL as a joke. 13:01:03 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:15 do 'read macros' start with a # 13:01:26 ludston: the major things I miss from clojure in ABCL are doable with normal macros, actually 13:01:27 ml__ [~ml@p3E9E1FB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:31 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:31 like the #i(...) 13:01:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:01:57 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 13:02:22 doomlord: no, # is just reserved in standard as dispatch character (i.e. character that starts a reader macro which takes next character as argument, with said argument choosing the correct macro from a map) 13:02:24 ludston: you can get most of clojure already, there are more than one persistent data structures library, you have clos is better than it's protocols, etc... 13:02:44 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 13:02:45 doomlord: but you can use any character in this way 13:02:51 ah neat 13:03:09 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 13:03:32 pavelpenev: I just think it'd be funny to rig up ABCL to compile clojure code. 13:03:38 also, it's possible to use unicode in code (pun intended) with most implementation 13:03:56 extra bracket types? :) 13:03:58 ludston: i think the original clojure compiler was prototyped in CL 13:04:10 cmm [~cmm@109.65.213.187] has joined #lisp 13:04:38 doomlord: even older is the practice of having computer-generated form to have something nicer on the eyes ;P 13:05:52 ikki [~ikki@189.247.89.222] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 pavelpenev: Google confirms this https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/da14d89c1936e9de6eacb9c12dd9e6a0d68a0829/src/lisp 13:06:21 intinig [~user@93-50-99-219.ip152.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:06:37 i quite like 'pretty mode' in emacs, showing lambda as single character etc 13:08:23 Better get some sleep so we can sacrifice my soul to the Gods of Banking again. Dam. 13:08:32 *mn 13:08:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.213.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:53 cmm [~cmm@109.65.213.187] has joined #lisp 13:09:54 -!- shifty`` [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.47] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.47] has quit [Changing host] 13:11:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:12:51 doomlord: ZMACS on Genera apparently allowed one to use "rich format" for source files 13:13:14 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:14 or so it seems when I encounter source code that has font selection reader macros, apparently 13:13:21 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:14:14 nice thing about 'prettymode' just substituting is you're not sacrificing compatability 13:14:26 doomlord: yes 13:14:39 you could probably program emacs to treat some keywords as a single unit for delete aswell 13:17:05 http://david.rothlis.net/code_presentation/john_mccarthy/ <--- the blockquote in front 13:17:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:18:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.47] has joined #lisp 13:18:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.47] has quit [Changing host] 13:18:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:20:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.47] has joined #lisp 13:20:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.47] has quit [Changing host] 13:20:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:21:47 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 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joined #lisp 14:09:47 bitonic [~user@dyn1204-162.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:10:23 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:17:49 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:21:14 shwouchk_ [5251a9c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.81.169.201] has joined #lisp 14:21:22 hello 14:21:38 I'm wondering 14:22:51 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:23:05 what is special about about lisp macros versus precompiled macros in other languages? 14:23:35 do you mean macros like in C or C++? 14:24:04 shwouchk_: lisp macros have the complete lisp language at their disposal (including functions you write yourself) to generate the code. furthermore, the code which you generate is like standard lisp datastructures, so it's very easy to manipulate. 14:24:14 shwouchk_: if you are talking about c preprocessor macros, the difference is that in c/c++, macro substitution is made on the text level whereas in lisp, it is made on the in-membory representation of s-expressions. 14:24:45 shwouchk_: however, lisp is about more than just the macros 14:26:13 basically, a lisp macro is a lisp function that gets called during macroexpansion, and gets AST as input. What is nice is that you can nicely manipulate those structures in readable way, unlike similar things for other languages 14:26:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:28 madnificent: of course, but as one of the features of the language, I was interested in it. I don't completely understand your first statement. Also, what other things make lisp "better"/special/etc in your opinion? 14:27:21 shwouchk_: you can use common lisp's macro to define your own syntax,which you can't do in C 14:27:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:27:33 #define BEGIN { 14:27:35 CLOS/MOP, conditions, fast executable code, extensible setters, charset agnostic approach etc. 14:27:45 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 14:28:15 conditions? 14:28:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:28:39 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 shwouchk_: maybe you want read this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/267862/what-makes-lisp-macros-so-special 14:28:52 cfy`: thanks 14:28:56 shwouchk_: conditions are what exceptions are in c++, just way cooler 14:29:04 :) 14:29:12 shwouchk_: way cooler because of handler-bind 14:29:27 shwouchk_: well, formally, it's like H4ns and p_l|work say: you get the AST which you can easily manipulate. thing is: lisp has great ways manipulating these trees. the builtins for manipulating it are all readily available. what it boils down to in practice is that macros become very natural to write. therefore, generating code becomes *a lot* simpler. you don't only get the functions which are in the common lisp stan 14:29:28 generate code in macros though, you get functions which you write yourself too. so it's all just quite natural whilst still being extremely expressive. 14:30:01 -!- cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.169] has quit [Quit: ....] 14:31:37 shwouchk_: aside from macros i'd vote for the condition system (which is like errors on steroids), special variables, CLOS+MOP (which is a really really awesome way of doing OO) and the possibility to adapt the reader (which allows you to make up a crazy non-s-expression-syntax and still embed it in your code). 14:32:02 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:15 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 14:32:32 load-time-value is also very, very nice, especially coupled with macros. Also, closures, though they are more commonly known 14:33:09 you can *slightly* approximate certain uses of load-time-value with C's "static" keyword, but I don't think you can go far that way 14:34:05 shwouchk_: take this home with you "lisp has very advanced features, most of wich you will appreciate only when you get to know them in practice" and that is what makes lisp great. 14:36:02 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1204-162.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:37:11 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:38:22 -!- ludston [~ludston@CPE-58-167-80-25.lnse5.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:23 -!- p_l|work is now known as p_l 14:38:24 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: This is bat country!] 14:39:32 madnificent: I'm learning it anyway, and I understand this 14:40:40 shwouchk_: great! 14:41:04 hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 madnificent: but assuming I'm not very stupid, I think I should still be able to understand what is special about macros (or some other feature) even without being deeply versed in the language 14:41:52 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:02 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:32 shwouchk_: you can explain it, but it's hard to estimate the repercussions in real-world use. that's what i was pointing at. 14:42:45 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 shwouchk_: you may be able to understand how a feature works, but it might not be apparent why it makes sense until you actually use the language. 14:43:52 madnificent: also, is my impression the amount of available libraries is tiny in comparison with more mainstream languages? 14:44:05 H4ns: that is true 14:44:20 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:25 shwouchk_: we tend to write things that we need ourselves. 14:44:39 bitonic [~user@dyn1215-165.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:44:53 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:01 shwouchk_: yeah that's possible. writing libraries is quite fast though, and you can find most things. i rarely run into an issue with libraries, but it's most likely less than in other languages. quicklisp makes finding libraries easier, so that's a huge step in the good direction. + what H4ns said. 14:45:21 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@113.173.18.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:25 madnificent: can you give me an example of something that I wouldn't be able to do with text processing macros/ 14:51:26 ? 14:51:49 besides lambda 14:52:36 shwouchk_: loop? 14:52:58 thats a bit of an extreme macro even by lisp standards though :) 14:55:01 nah loop is mainstream 14:55:07 shwouchk_: (note: i wrote this, and that's the reason i pick that as an example, i doubt it's possible with text processing) SEXML allows you to generate functions which help you write XML code, based on functions. for that, SEXML reads a DTD at compiletime, creates a package and generates the code for the necessary functions. using context-oriented programming, you -the user- select a set of layers, which define the funct 14:55:07 which SEXML should generate from the DTD. the result is a relatively short macro to write as a user which generates a whole lot of code. 14:55:08 try SERIES for an all out macro 14:55:44 hiteki [~user@2a01:e35:2ed9:5530:211:24ff:febf:9313] has joined #lisp 14:55:51 hi 14:56:21 shwouchk_: you could even, though i doubt right now and i'd call it bad practice, make it download the DTD at compiletime. 14:56:28 hello hiteki 14:57:38 madnificent: I see 14:57:40 cool 14:57:59 another question 14:58:08 when I am writing code 14:58:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:58:20 I find the documentation to be not very good 14:58:44 write better documentation? (i must miss the question) 14:59:08 I need to either search on the web or guess, as the normal describe etc just show me the signatures of the functions 14:59:18 is there a way around this? 14:59:26 shwouchk_: do you know the CLHS? 14:59:28 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:59:30 clhs loop 14:59:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 14:59:35 for instance 14:59:49 madnificent: yes, but even that is not very good and I need to do it in a browser 14:59:57 madnificent: which is annoying in itself 15:00:51 madnificent: for example, I wanted to know how to generate random numbers, and the page of random (and actually nowhere in CLHS) was I able to find instructions regarding the random state variable 15:01:00 only in some othersite through google 15:01:22 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:44 shwouchk_: what i often do, is find a symbol which is relatod (for instance random), then press the up button once or twice and see what else is in that chapter. 15:01:52 shwouchk_: have you tried doing that? 15:03:06 it's still in the browser, it is a non-issue for me, perhaps someone else has solved it. in emacs i run C-c C-d h to pop up the browser window for the symbol at the current point (and C-c C-d d for other documentation). perhaps that helps 15:03:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@80.63.227.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:58 bitonic` [~user@dyn1208-121.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1215-165.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:06:32 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:07:12 zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 -!- intinig [~user@93-50-99-219.ip152.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:22 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:13:48 -!- shwouchk_ [5251a9c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.81.169.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:29 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:15:11 -!- niels2 [~niels@p4FD6F621.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:16:12 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:17:32 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:13 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.40.118.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 15:18:53 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-49.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 shwouchk_ [5251a9c9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.81.169.201] has joined #lisp 15:20:18 madnificent: thanks 15:20:42 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:21:03 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:40 newbie_coder [4267ffa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.103.255.163] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 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has joined #lisp 16:46:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:46:11 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:15 madnificent: some use an emacs-based browser 16:47:24 w3m.el works perfectly with CLHS 16:47:34 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A38C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:05 +1 on w3m. I really miss it when it isn't installed. The context switch out of emacs to a browser takes a lot of time in aggregate. 16:49:25 you could install dpans2texi and have the CLHS in Info format 16:49:37 M-x el-get-install RET dpans2texi RET, wait a little, enjoy 16:49:39 which sucks, compared to CLHS 16:49:59 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-48-88.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:50:01 The info file is indexed, so you can search for any term/function/macro 16:50:26 i make-hash-table, with completion on the term and all 16:50:33 I like it 16:50:37 but it doesn't have the abundance of hyperlinks 16:50:50 what do you mean? 16:50:55 *Note gethash::, *Note hash-table:: 16:51:04 those are hyperlinks, you have them all over the place 16:51:14 did you try the dpans2texi version already? 16:51:39 sentences such as "*Note Section 18.1 (Hash Table Concepts): Hash Table Concepts, *Note Section 22.1.3.13 (Printing Other Objects): PrintingOtherObjects." are also containing hyperlinks 16:51:49 and links to the glossary? 16:52:17 from where should I look? (sorry I'm not used to CLHS enough yet) 16:52:24 clhs defun 16:52:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 16:52:49 in the Arguments and Values, most of the links are to the glossary 16:53:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:18 right, I don't have those 16:53:43 actually I'm missing lots of link, yes 16:54:03 thanks 16:54:21 of course, someone could go over dpans and add all the links. but wait, that's what happened with CLHS 16:54:25 I still like using Info, I wish the conversion didn't loose that much information 16:54:30 it's dpans plus all the links 16:54:40 ikki [~ikki@189.247.89.222] has joined #lisp 16:54:45 dpans == scraping the CLHS and converting it into info 16:54:47 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:54:51 no, not really 16:55:01 that's what I remember having read 16:55:10 dpans is the draft ANSI standard? 16:55:21 dpans is the draft of the standard, CLHS is based on dpans (or some other form of the draft) 16:55:59 dpans2texi.el converts the TeX sources of the draft ANSI Common Lisp standard (dpANS) to the Texinfo format. 16:56:00 oh ok 16:57:12 do you happen to know if Bill Schelter's Texinfo rendition contains those links? 16:57:29 i have no idea, but i very much doubt it 16:59:06 -!- asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:23 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:08:57 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:10:14 peterhil- [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:21 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:49 peterhil- [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:23 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 17:12:01 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined 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[~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:13:02 good evening everyone 19:13:53 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:14:15 bitonic [~user@dyn1194-155.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:14:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.218.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:27 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 19:15:11 Jeaye [~Jeaye@gateway/tor-sasl/jeaye] has joined #lisp 19:15:33 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:16:35 -!- tali713 [~user@76.17.236.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:37 tali713` [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 p9f [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:44 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:18:59 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:19:35 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 19:19:40 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 19:22:32 jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-224.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:25:55 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 19:26:57 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053006029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:28:31 malik [~malik@109.227.15.82] has joined #lisp 19:33:44 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:48 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:33:48 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 19:36:28 senj [~senj_@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1194-155.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37:34 fms [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 -!- senj [~senj_@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:25 -!- malik [~malik@109.227.15.82] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:42:54 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:43:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:44:25 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.8] has joined #lisp 19:46:11 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:47:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:11 Ascender [~ascension@d137-186-202-157.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:57:08 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-12-121.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:25 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-49.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:53 zophy [~user@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 19:58:22 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:34 Drakma is the curl of lisp? 19:58:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:58:42 yep 19:58:47 ok :) 19:58:56 highly recommend it (: 19:58:59 why is it so popular? 19:59:02 tali713 [~user@76.17.236.129] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 -!- zophy [~user@24.111.9.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:10 why? curl isn't good enough? :o 19:59:14 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 it's lisp 19:59:46 zophy [~user@24.111.9.10] has joined #lisp 20:00:02 ... how is that a good reason? 20:00:05 Ralt_: it's easier to integrate with drakma from Lisp. 20:00:08 and lispier. 20:00:14 oh 20:00:38 yeah so if you want to do http requests, ofc you're going to use drakma, otherwise... 20:00:55 what is this discussion? 20:01:00 ...otherwise, why would you use an http client? 20:01:18 well, it's not like you need http clients every day. 20:01:26 but well, thanks for the information. 20:01:33 I do. 20:01:40 I'm using two right now. 20:01:49 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:58 every single damn day, I work with http clients directly interfacing with REST APIs. 20:02:08 -!- Ascender [~ascension@d137-186-202-157.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:59 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:04:02 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-110-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:04:20 though now that he mentions it, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't written a libcurl glue library 20:04:31 ah, well. Too late. 20:04:43 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-curl/ 20:05:01 dlowe: libcurl is also the example in the documentation for CFFI, iirc. 20:05:12 so you could say there's at least two of them 20:05:13 sykopomp: the very first line in that is "Use Drakma" 20:05:33 irrelevant 20:05:45 Further down, "This code should be considered alpha." 20:05:46 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:10 me0 [~user@83.253.239.120] has joined #lisp 20:06:13 your statement did not qualify the intention or quality of said libcurl glue library. 20:06:23 just sayin' 20:06:24 :P 20:06:33 lame pedanticism 20:06:50 it's #lisp :( 20:07:01 hah 20:08:13 -!- ghast [~user@host218.190-138-30.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:25 okay, by your definition, (defun libcurl:get () nil) is a low quality libcurl glue library of questionable intention. 20:08:46 Just needs a few bugs fixed here and there 20:11:35 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:56 (defun libcurl:get (&rest args) (declare (ignore args)) (error "Not implemented")) 20:12:01 now, that's better 20:12:11 one step closer to completion! 20:13:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:17:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:19:52 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 20:20:54 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:29 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 20:24:43 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:33 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:34 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] 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[~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:35 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89.92.204.200] has joined #lisp 20:51:49 chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:57 "/join #emacs 20:55:07 20:58:18 refreshing [~refreshin@host45-186-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 ciao 20:59:08 -!- refreshing [~refreshin@host45-186-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 21:00:01 pmai_ [~pmai@2001:470:1f15:3df:8854:680d:5a99:5f10] has joined #lisp 21:00:20 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 21:02:41 -!- pmai [~pmai@178-27-46-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:02:41 -!- pmai_ is now known as pmai 21:08:03 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-60-57.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:08:32 strg [~strg@a89-182-47-47.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@119.201.52.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:09:22 -!- p9f [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:40 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 21:10:49 setmeaway [oosool3@119.201.52.222] has joined #lisp 21:12:24 -!- codeknitty [~AndChat29@triband-mum-120.60.8.155.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:58 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:14:36 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 21:17:18 -!- me0 [~user@83.253.239.120] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:19:43 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:25:01 francogrex [~user@109.130.42.66] has joined #lisp 21:25:57 do you think this can be adapted to sbcl (or other): https://github.com/mcords/abcl-jdbc 21:26:16 I like to use jdbc instead of odbc to connect to oracle 21:30:48 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 21:31:33 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:32:07 hh [~sp@41.115.1.225] has joined #lisp 21:33:53 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:11 -!- hh [~sp@41.115.1.225] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 21:34:42 -!- segv_ [~mb@dslb-088-075-118-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv_] 21:35:51 Joreji [~thomas@85-003.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 or in other words, is the abcl package :java portable ? 21:37:57 duko [~duko@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:01 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-48-88.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:38:53 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 21:38:56 francogrex: no. 21:39:02 francogrex: since SBCL doesn't run on a JVM, I think not 21:40:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:51 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.81] has joined #lisp 21:43:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:34 ok better forget that endeavor then. 21:47:15 -!- hiteki [~user@2a01:e35:2ed9:5530:211:24ff:febf:9313] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:24 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:21 two- [~1@67.23.193.215] has joined #lisp 21:50:09 francogrex: well, you could probably use ABCL to write a lispy JDBC bridge that exports some other interface 21:51:06 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 21:51:34 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:53:58 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:54:44 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@173-15-212-110-BusName-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 21:55:48 ynniv [~ynniv@173.15.212.110] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 p_l: what other interfaces 21:56:38 implementations ? 21:56:43 no idea, something easier to use from lisp 21:56:58 there was also some bridge project that let you remote control java stuff 21:57:15 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 21:57:42 my only experience with java (limited) is through some Linj tests 22:00:23 francogrex: I can help you migrate to PostgreSQL so that you can then use postmodern, if you want :) 22:00:43 I mean, let's solve the real problem here... 22:01:29 no no I am a big Oracle fan 22:01:47 use the oci through ffi 22:02:08 francogrex: sounds like something easy to change by phoning oracle support when a real problem strikes 22:02:34 cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has joined #lisp 22:03:41 H4ns: the oci, that's what clsql uses (afaik) 22:03:48 francogrex: so? 22:03:59 -!- cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:02 or when you try to evaluate how much would it cost you to have the parts you use/love in Oracle available in PostgreSQL... compared to a single year of licencing... but well it's #lisp, so I'll stop here :) 22:04:03 hmm, so, so, not great 22:04:54 dim: it's not a choice unfortunately. 22:05:15 apparently you still have to handle it fully 22:05:43 clsql through oci cannot read columns with datatype long 22:05:55 francogrex: then you'll have to fix clsql 22:06:05 francogrex: the oci certainly handles long very well. 22:06:33 ah. I didn't know I thought it's the oci. well 22:06:59 oci ;/ 22:10:03 -!- Ralt_ [~Ralt@89.92.204.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:19 eSoul [~eSoul@68.179.146.32] has joined #lisp 22:16:46 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:54 [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has joined #lisp 22:22:45 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:49 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:24:33 <[6502]> Wouldn't be better to use hash tables for keyword parameters instead of having them passed as regular arguments with symbols mixed in? 22:24:50 better for what? 22:25:03 <[6502]> stassats: for handling them 22:25:12 in what way? 22:25:30 you mean, instead of getting a plist which is parsed, you get a hash table which is parsed? 22:25:46 it'll be slower and consume more space, most of the time 22:26:08 <[6502]> stassats: a sequence of keyword value keyword value seems like an artificial trick, an hash table key->value looks like the real thing 22:26:23 yeah, it's probably not worth it for the number of elements you usually have in a kwargs list 22:27:09 artificial trick? what kind of artificial nonsense is that? 22:27:12 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 22:27:43 maybe that you have to deal with kwarg plists as lists more often than you might think given the key-value distinction they're supposed to be. but it's not really that hard 22:28:34 [6502]: plists have properties that hash tables do not have - you can append two and those arguments in the first plist trump those in the second one. 22:29:02 [6502]: just because hash tables are everywhere today does not automatically make them better for everything 22:31:22 <[6502]> Why a list of 4 elements should be better from an efficiency point of view than an hash table with two key,value pairs? I can count 8 spaces in the list and 5 in the hash table... 22:31:42 [6502]: did you do measurements? 22:32:10 spaces? what the hell is that? 22:32:18 <[6502]> stassats: cells? 22:32:45 did you ever implement a hash-table? 22:32:48 pxp [~pxp@72.185.225.68] has joined #lisp 22:33:08 [6502]: I suspect you never actually *made* a hash-table 22:33:23 or any other kind of map other than linear map on list 22:33:29 <[6502]> stassats: list: 4 CARs and 4 CDRs (not considering cdr-coded lists), hash table: size + 2 keys + 2 values 22:33:36 [6502]: nope 22:33:38 that's not how hash tables work, haha 22:33:42 right, so, the answer to my question is "yes" 22:33:46 [6502]: I recommend you learn about how maps are implemented 22:33:56 oh, it was "ever", so, "no" then 22:36:01 <[6502]> Bike: what is the last time you checked out a decent hash table implementation (one that considered special casing small tables, that is)? 22:36:56 [6502]: but still, you'll not have plist semantics with hash tables. personally, i like plist semantics very much. 22:37:03 i'm not sure what amount of special casing is going to result in something faster than simple linear search on that small 22:37:05 yes, a hash table takes about as much space as a plist when it's implemented as a property-vector. 22:37:57 [6502]: you can't really get lower than plist in space amount 22:38:03 and that's with special-casing 22:38:13 tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.89] has joined #lisp 22:38:21 p_l: sure, by a factor of two. 22:38:22 <[6502]> bike: good hash table implementations do use linear search for few elements 22:38:45 <[6502]> pkhuong: why the same? lists have all the CDRs 22:39:44 pkhuong: hmmm... I see how you can drop space for nextptr by using an array 22:40:02 [6502]: you're telling me that it's better to use a hash table for small sets because good hash tables aren't implemented as hash tables for such small sets. 22:40:42 [6502]: do you have any evidence that the keyword argument lookup performance in common lisp would be better with hash tables? 22:41:28 [6502]: i.e. would you claim that because of the performance advantages, giving up plist semantics would actually be worthwhile? 22:41:36 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.71.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:41:48 <[6502]> H4ns: it was the other way around... i thought about the semantic; and I simply don't blindly buy the performance counterarguments 22:42:15 [6502]: i don't get your point. 22:42:16 semantics with hash-table are IMO worse - you can't easily concatenate them 22:42:23 so, you blindly buy "let's turn them into hashtables" instead? 22:42:40 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:43:15 <[6502]> stassats: no... i'm simply currently thinking about the issue 22:44:41 <[6502]> Is it legal to repeat the same keyword multiple times in a call with keyword parameters? 22:44:42 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:48 yes 22:44:49 [6502]: of course 22:44:54 [6502]: "plist semantics" 22:45:24 <[6502]> and chaining happens often in real code? 22:45:35 [6502]: i take advantage of it regularly 22:45:39 what is chaining? 22:45:54 stassats: appending one plist to another 22:46:47 weird terminology, well, you don't have to append anything explicitly (apply #'x :override 10 args) is quite useful 22:47:45 jeti` [~user@p548EA217.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:59 <[6502]> stassats: you must know that args contains ONLY keyword arguments to be able to do that 22:50:17 you don't need to know, it's very easy 22:50:45 (defun foo (x y z &rest args &key a b c)), there you go 22:54:35 I'm having an issue with my lisp program, and I begin by saying I am a complete newb, trying to do some homework in a programming language class, but would like some information on how to remedy my situation. I have a list of 10,000+ lists (student records) and im trying to count all the students with a particular last name, but my function gives me an invocation history stack overflow. Of 22:54:35 course my function works with a much smaller subset of the list, but any pointers on how to process my huge list? 22:55:16 are you calling APPLY? 22:55:23 no 22:55:41 sefe [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:55:51 eSoul: is it a recursive function? 22:55:56 ah, recursion, didn't thought at first, but what else a school can teach you.. 22:56:06 jasom: yes 22:56:12 -!- chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:56:29 eSoul: make it not-recursive 22:56:31 stassats: recursion, that's about it. 22:56:43 the solution is stop using inadequate methods for processing your data 22:57:12 google recursion: try with this spelling "recursion" 22:57:51 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:03 Gotcha. sorry, the discusion on lisp in this class was very minimal, basically touting lisp's resursive nature, which I doubt to be true now. The instructor almost made us feel like the all functions had to be recursive to get any actual work done, so thanks for clearing that up 22:59:06 eSoul: heh. As you can see, there's a lot of mocking of outdated tutorials 22:59:17 (and lectures) 22:59:19 p_l: I can see that 22:59:43 eSoul: i guess your lecturer haven't actually written real programs in lisp 22:59:57 if you're using *Common* Lisp, you can depend on natively available looping constructs, or simulate recursive programs with labels 23:00:22 (some implementations do tailcalls optimization, which often takes care of that, but it's better to be explicit IMO) 23:00:23 however, I am limited to what function I can even use ... "You can use IF, COND, PROGN, APPEND, LOOP WHILE and WHEN" ... anything outside of this prolly wont be accepted 23:00:35 oh, you can use LOOP 23:00:44 loop, game over 23:00:49 :D 23:00:50 eSoul: in the limited case of tail-calls then scheme (another dialect of lisp) prefers recursion to loops, and guarantees it will generate reasonable code; common lisp does not, but nearly every implementation will do so if you tell it to 23:00:51 good night :) 23:00:53 And we are using CLisp 23:01:13 i think it means only using "(loop while ...)" 23:01:13 eSoul: try compiling the function and see if it stops blowing the stack 23:01:15 which is stupid 23:01:25 lol, thanks dim, p_l 23:01:51 IIRC clisp will do TCE for compiled functions (or do you need to declare optimize to a certain level?) 23:02:00 I only have access to an interpretor 23:02:05 sorry, crappy spelling 23:02:16 clisp does TCE for functions which call themselves, yes 23:02:21 if it's CLisp you can just call #'compile and all 23:02:26 and compiled, of course 23:02:41 eSoul: clisp has compiler, but to bytecode (unless you're using one of the rare JIT builds) 23:03:09 Are we sure this isn't actually a scheme question? 23:03:25 it says PROGN and LOOP, so, no 23:03:27 pkhuong: he mentioned "LOOP" and using "clisp" :) 23:03:30 is there a scheme implementation called CLisp, because that would be all kinds of confusing. 23:03:48 *jasom* is going to go write an r5rs implementation and call it clisp now 23:05:07 thanks everyone for the insight. I have been using procedural languages for so long that getting a grasp on lisp is a bit tricky 23:05:23 lisp is procedural, so, you'll have no problem 23:05:38 it isnt functional? 23:05:47 once again, lecture topic 23:05:55 PROG is probably more "procedural" than most languages that are commonly used today, really 23:06:11 jasom: wait until r100rs 23:06:12 no, not really, but you can write functional style programs in it, if you wish so 23:06:19 it wasn't really designed to fit any particular paradigm, and you can write very sideffectful programs if you want to 23:06:54 I see I see. We just discuss it from the fucntional side, as a different paradigm than your java and c/c++/c# 23:07:09 eSoul: according to wikipedia it is functional, according to just about everyone here it's not 23:07:34 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:07:54 according to wikipedia, it's "Multi-paradigm" 23:08:01 Im just excited to get this done and move on to prolog, which seems exciting as well 23:08:08 -!- zophy [~user@24.111.9.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:13 but im not trying to start a language war with that 23:08:13 It provides a lot of tools that are common in functional programming (e.g. map, reduce, etc.) but it also provides very non functional things like anything starting with the letter "N" 23:08:36 prolog's cool enough that one of the commercial lisp implementations comes with a prolog sublanguage, so probably notoby's going to jump on you 23:08:59 stassats: "However, prominent functional programming languages such as Common Lisp,..." (from wikipedia's Functional programming page) 23:09:24 just because it is "functional" does not mean it is _only_ functional 23:09:35 that's basically the entire point of "multi-paradigm" 23:09:48 It seems using GNU Common Lisp is the defacto free standard though? 23:10:02 nope 23:10:03 ah, what? the horror! 23:10:08 hahaha 23:10:10 eSoul: nope, GNU Common Lisp doesn't even comply to the standard; try SBCL 23:10:10 GCL is deader than dead 23:10:15 gnu common lisp is the worst implementation you could have picked 23:10:35 unless you're calling GNU CLisp by that name, which it's not 23:10:39 alright, start your hatemail generators and point them at USI then 23:10:45 heh 23:11:04 eSoul: which USI? 23:11:05 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-210-142.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:09 not Southern Indiana 23:11:10 ? 23:11:18 jasom.: yes 23:11:20 eSoul: there's GCL and CLISP that are both GNU affiliated, it's a bit confusing. the latter is fine, the former is... well 23:11:42 well, I said clisp as a shorthand for common lisp, which i seem i was in error 23:11:57 oh, yes, the usual abbreviation is "CL" 23:12:06 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 23:12:06 yes, clisp is the fullhand for clisp, the implementation 23:12:12 hello 23:12:24 i see i see 23:12:42 -!- jeti` [~user@p548EA217.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:13:01 so, are you using clisp or gcl? 23:13:03 yeah, GCL is what we are "offered" as the download in our blackboard site for the course as what to use to get the lisp assignment done 23:13:05 gcl 23:13:29 I've often thought that it would be fun to teach a comparative languages class, only to make students do the same set of problems in all the different languages 23:13:30 how do I need to pass an argument "by reference", i.e. so that a change to it would be saved back out? (I want to push a cons cell onto a list inside a function) 23:13:33 why am i not surprised why nobody likes lisp after college/university? 23:13:39 godspeed on shoving through your homework then, esoul 23:14:30 shwouchk: that's usually not a good idea, while can be done with most lists, it'll break with an empty list, NIL 23:14:34 shwouchk: (push foo bar) is like (setf bar (cons foo bar)), so in a function you'd just be altering the lexical variable, which has been bound for the function 23:14:35 the impression I get from all of these painful discussions is that a comparative languages class typically makes the students do something iterative with recursion in lisp, something with unification and maybe search in prolog, something well modelled by message-passing in Java, etc 23:14:48 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@173.15.212.110] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 23:15:23 Krystof: many different strategies can be done in CL alone 23:15:33 surely the learning outcome would be better if you made the students try to solve some simple first-order logic problem in Java and something message-passingy in lisp, etc 23:15:42 Bike: Its not horrible, I only have to count the number of students, the number of students with anderson, the number of students with no email, the average gpa, and the number of students with a 3.0 gpa or higher, after adding a student into the proper place (alphabetically) in the list 23:15:57 stassats, I will not do it then, but just for the sake of my knowledge - how? 23:15:58 Krystof: for java, take something well modeled by deep inheritance, while never mentioning "message passing" as underlying idea of OOP 23:16:21 shwouchk: by modifying the cons cells, (setf (car list) y), etc. 23:16:23 eSoul: do you also understand why a list is a horrible data structure for this problem? 23:16:31 Krystof: the idea of the same problem in different languages would be a great idea 23:16:39 the common way for list modification functions is (setf list (modify list)) 23:16:48 Bike, I understand that... is there a way to change the actual variable? 23:16:49 Krystof: I can see that it might be 23:16:52 even if modify destructively operates on the list 23:16:57 eSoul: ok, why? 23:17:16 shwouchk: and ignore the entire point of lexical scope? yes, actually, but you should rethink your strategy 23:17:43 Krystof: if all you've been exposed to is java, it's hard to tell how you're doing it wrong by not using prolog for an unification/exhaustive search problem. 23:17:47 I suppose you could put it in a cons cell and pass the cons cell in... but yeah, rethink your strategy 23:18:17 Krystof: well, accessing the various fields in the list dont seem to be a problem, but maybe going from student to student could be an issue. 23:18:51 hacks 23:19:03 pkhuong: please do not make me more miserable about my students than I already am :) 23:19:09 <[6502]> shwouchk: the key point to understand is that there is no "list object", there are only cons cells. Lists are an illusion (and that's why for example push cannot be a regular function). 23:19:20 but that is kind of the point 23:19:31 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 23:19:43 [6502], I understand 23:19:52 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@109.151.246.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:01 the other thought, even more of a fantasy, was that it would be fun for the set of problems in my ideal comparative language course to be related to the different formulations of classical mechanics 23:20:58 eSoul: The bright side of this discussion is that it makes me feel better about Purdue's CS program, which I always considered to be mediocre :) 23:21:00 I haven't really thought that idea through 23:21:12 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:21:16 Krystof: have you seen "Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics", at least? 23:21:19 I have 23:21:40 jasom: Oh, USI's is horrible. besides the programming language course, everything we do is either Java or C# 23:21:46 cool 23:22:07 except for an ENGR class that does ASM and then C 23:22:15 Im just glad i've done alot on my own 23:22:35 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:58 they could have at least chosen Scheme for recursive problems, instead of CL 23:23:02 Krystof: Stefan Monnier's take is interesting. He also covers interesting static typing considerations. Less about languages (we only do C, Prolog and Scheme/Haskell, iirc), and more about modeling approaches. 23:23:17 stassats: they didn't choose CL; they are using GCL 23:23:28 *jasom* dosn't count GCL as being common lisp 23:23:47 jasom: it's still closer to CL than to anything else 23:23:54 stassats: true 23:24:19 and people are writing in brainfuck, so, it could have been worse 23:24:21 "Scheme/Haskell" is the new "C/C++" 23:24:37 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.241.239] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 sounds good to me. 23:25:01 Krystof: well, depending on whether it's Feeley's or Monnier's turn ;) 23:25:32 right. Fun though this discussion is, I have office hours tomorrow for me to twiddle my thumbs while no students show up 23:25:56 -!- Blkt [~user@62.10.10.99] has quit [Quit: good night!] 23:26:05 *[6502]* remembers the first recursive program he saw.... it was a tower of hanoi solution in BASIC :-) .... B=6-B-A: GOSUB 200: B=6-B-A 23:26:08 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:26:41 *jasom* used to tutor in college, and I don't think I had ever had a single student who tried going to office hours for classes they were confused about before paying money to hire a tutor. 23:26:43 ah, determining how programming should be taught. Only slightly less controversial than focus follows mouse. 23:27:20 jasom: its sad, but true. The same happens here 23:27:25 pkhuong: freshman year everyone should be taught vim so that they know how to use the one true text editor for the rest of their classes 23:27:36 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:37 gasp! 23:28:01 I'm happy when they don't try to use MS Word. 23:28:15 ^agreed 23:28:23 <[6502]> pkhuong: bottom-up for sure :-) 23:28:40 <[6502]> pkhuong: today they however use the top-up approach 23:28:41 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.160.222.118] has joined #lisp 23:28:44 I think i might be the only student at USI with more than 2 years of Linux experience, of which I have 10+ 23:29:26 *jasom* had never used linux before going to school. My dad had a machine that booted to minix at one point when I was a kid, and I learned enough to reboot to DOS in order to play games 23:29:38 :-) 23:29:44 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:31:01 <[6502]> jasom: you mean you used a triple fault trick to be able to reboot even from a non-privileged account? 23:31:33 can we maybe discuss lisp? 23:32:31 sellout [~Adium@ip-64-134-223-159.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:33 so why is a lisp list bad for my assignment, Krystof, not that I have a way to change it, its the basis for my assignment 23:32:59 but how would a true lisp programmer do something like this 23:34:11 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34:30 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-12-121.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:34:32 structures or classes 23:34:50 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-136-114.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:35:24 that would make sense 23:35:42 Am I right in thinking that to access an element near the end of a long list, you have to go through the whole list? 23:36:03 Thra11: yup, lisp lists are singly-linked lists 23:36:04 because it's a chain of cons cells, you can't just jump in 23:36:14 you can point to the middle of a list 23:36:19 Thra11: you can point to the middle of the list though 23:37:22 stassats, jasom the middle? how? (assuming you don't already have a reference to the cons cell in question) 23:37:31 what would be the correct comparator for comparing lists of symbols? (want t if all symbols are the same in both lists) 23:37:32 yes, that's how 23:37:34 Thra11: you would need to already have a reference to the cons cell in question 23:37:42 ah, lol. ok 23:37:58 shwouchk: what about order? 23:37:59 shwouchk: eql or eq are typically used for comparing symbols. 23:38:14 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-48-88.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:38:17 good question 23:38:41 stassats, same only if pairwise the same per cell 23:38:56 i.e. A[i] = B[i] 23:39:07 jasom, thanks 23:39:24 well then (equal list1 list2) 23:39:34 shwouchk: see also equal 23:39:42 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 23:39:54 clhs equal 23:39:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 23:40:26 thanks 23:42:22 stassats, and if I allow unordered? or do I need to implement that myself 23:42:24 ? 23:42:33 yes 23:43:16 if you tread them like sets, (not (or (set-difference list1 list2) (set-difference list2 list1))) 23:43:46 but a dedicated function would be faster 23:45:15 stassats, cool, thanks! for now, I want simplicity. 23:45:35 I'll worry about running after I can walk 23:45:51 pmai_ [~pmai@2001:470:1f15:3df:f154:56e1:60c7:6103] has joined #lisp 23:46:00 treating the like sets means (1 2 3) == (1 1 2 3) 23:46:43 -!- pmai [~pmai@2001:470:1f15:3df:8854:680d:5a99:5f10] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:46:43 -!- pmai_ is now known as pmai 23:47:29 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:36 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.110.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:54 rbarry [~user@webvpn.armus.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:14 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:51:25 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:51:34 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:59 -!- rbarry [~user@webvpn.armus.com] has left #lisp 23:53:54 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 23:53:55 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.42.66] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:56:19 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 23:56:25 holy-hell, my LOOP implementation did the job 23:57:28 well, it's not recursive, so, you won't get any points! 23:57:28 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:58:23 haha, this is fine, he admitted it didnt have to be recursive by saying it could use LOOP 23:58:52 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bbl] 23:59:21 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e30.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp