00:02:35 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable107.197-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:02:40 Seriously. WTF. 00:02:51 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:03:06 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:09 Hexstream, a man of too few words 00:05:05 I spend 2+ hours writing a reply to the [pro] mailing list and it gets summarily dismissed. 00:05:43 So fast that it obviously wasn't even read. 00:05:56 Post it to twitter. 00:06:20 Actually, I'm thinking of posting it on my site. 00:06:30 Hexstream: so what did you do to piss them off? 00:06:35 Because it's not worthy of a summary dismissal. 00:06:41 I suggest The Register. 00:06:54 *madnificent* is curious now 00:07:51 Hexstream: "First, go learn Common Lisp, and see you in a few years" damn, that's not very nice. 00:08:16 luis: Hum. I just meant that learning Common Lisp takes a few years. 00:08:30 I guess I see an alternative reading, now. 00:08:34 "My opinion is that anyone who would spell "LISP" in all-uppercase 00:08:35 doesn't know jackshit about Lisp." 00:08:51 not very nice, either. 00:09:02 plus, not true. 00:09:07 Ah?? 00:09:48 I know people who spell it LISP they've been programming in Lisp longer than you, that's all. ;-) 00:09:59 Ok. 00:10:09 you know, back when all-uppercase was fashionable 00:10:47 luis: some people who do so only do so because of dealing with shitty lectures that use bastardized cross of maclisp and CL 00:10:47 Ignoring the time before I was born: Never. 00:11:11 Hexstream: does it appoar on p.l.o if you post it on your site? 00:11:25 What's p.l.o? 00:11:49 ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:05 Hexstream: ah, i was unclear. planet.lisp.org 00:13:14 http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/wtf-pro.txt 00:13:23 madnificent: No. 00:13:38 I don't yet "blog" officially. 00:14:08 Hexstream: direct link works fine too 00:14:26 Apparently, having strong opinions is not well-received on [pro]. 00:15:03 This quick-trigger moderation thing is childish. 00:15:32 What's [pro]? 00:15:42 A mailing list. 00:16:29 Hexstream: that reply seems nicer. :) Doesn't make much sense to accept the other message, but not this one, I guess. 00:17:14 The first one was auto-approved. This second one was caught in moderation a few seconds and then summarily dismissed. 00:18:02 well, send it to orangethirty if you haven't already, I guess. 00:18:23 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:43 Yeah, I sent it to him and hans directly, and CC [pro] 00:18:48 *drewc* is going to say that the moderator is probably not allowing followups because it looks like a free advertizing SPAM thing rather than a proper question. 00:19:54 *drewc* replied this morning to the email, but did not post it to an archived mailing list. 00:19:58 FOUR minutes between sending my reply and its rejection. Less time than it takes to read it with consideration... 00:20:29 Artheist [~quassel@cac94-2-82-66-238-128.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:43 Hexstream: i reccon they dropped it when they read that you didn't want to proof-read it. 00:20:44 Hexstream: i did not read it with consideration because you totally missed the point of an apology. an apology is not "i apologize, but ". it is "i apologize". 00:20:44 Does that hurt your feelings? 00:20:46 I guess the expectation was no less than a full genuflexion. 00:21:39 Hexstream: that, and the fact that you say that you read some things wrongly probably doens't make a good impression on someone that isn't sure about it in the first place. though you do make valid points, and the rest of the mail is imho quite well. i don't know what the level of [pro] is 00:21:39 H4ns: The context is important to determine the appropriateness or otherwise of my messages. 00:22:41 superflit_ [~superflit@63-225-246-63.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:41 Xach: It hurts my feelings of justice. 00:23:18 ahh. i'll have to remember that. "did you stub your toe?" "no, i stubbed my toe of justice" 00:23:31 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:32 My RIGHTEOUS toe of justice! 00:23:48 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 00:24:06 I take that as no less than a full-on political statement, Xach! 00:24:14 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:25 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:44 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-201-253.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:24:45 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 00:25:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-213-127.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:26:46 Hexstream: here is how you one properly apologizes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7mIy97_rlo 00:27:47 -!- CrazyEddy [~schizanth@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:10 holycow [~holycow@69.172.160.27] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 H4ns: That video is much more appropriate than you think. You're that guy, holding me like that to try to get me to "properly" apologize. THAT'S offensive. 00:29:17 Hexstream: well, quite frankly, i did not mean to send it to you but as an amusement to the rest of the channel. 00:29:47 Illustrates well how seriously you take this situation. 00:30:31 Hexstream: lighten up, you're not dying just yet 00:32:31 -!- herbieB [~herbie@s15434998.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:32:48 herbieB [~herbie@s15434998.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:02 H4ns: If what I posted is not an apology, how can Pablo Rivera accept it? I forwarded you his reply to me, which I quite liked. He seems like a gentleman after all! 00:34:11 Jeaye [~Jeaye@gateway/tor-sasl/jeaye] has joined #lisp 00:34:22 He even "hope[s] is that [I] stay involved in the discussion"! 00:34:39 Whoops. "hope[s] that..." 00:35:25 so, H4ns, how's toot looking for serious usage? 00:35:30 H4ns: I hope we can resolve this situation, because I don't like hard feelings. 00:35:59 pkhuong: i don't know. it seems that gigamonkey has not worked on it much lately, and i have not even looked at it thoroughly. 00:37:04 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:22 pkhuong: hunchentoot's documentation is still its strongest selling point, and i already know the source well enough not to be offended by it anymore :) 00:38:11 soverton [~soverton@24.89.41.21] has joined #lisp 00:39:59 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:41:49 H4ns: I apologize for not being good at genuflection, my Lord. 00:41:50 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable107.197-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:44:29 I'm struggling to comprehend "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" book. Does anyone know of some other work (preferably available online) that is maybe a more general introduction to the topic? 00:44:41 soverton: do you understand CLOS? 00:44:54 pkhuong: yes, mostly. 00:45:22 soverton: CLOS, AMOP, and digging in Pascal Costanza's blog (and where he linked to) over time, was my way of getting more comfortable with it. 00:46:08 heh ... and then it is still hard to understand, even if you are one of the authors! 00:46:46 lol 00:47:37 *drewc* remembers talking about AMOP with kiczales , which is why I said that previous thingie :) 00:47:43 It took me a long time to understand just parts of it. I remember Kiczales's later papers (but before AOP) being a bit of help, along with just reading SBCL's version of PCL... Some stuff probably became clearer when I tried to implement a mini object system as well. 00:48:03 soverton: what are you having trouble with? 00:48:43 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:52 drewc: thanks, what should i do with this url ? 00:48:53 yeah, simply implementing the code included in AMOP helps to learn a lot about it. pcos's blog and code help as well. 00:49:49 Bike: I wish there was sort of a cheat sheet for which methods do what and which ones I should make :after versions for new metaclasses 00:50:22 so is really cl-skip-list the only open source implementation of a skip list ? 00:50:24 i think that would be... chapters 5 and 6? the ones the alu have up. 00:50:28 billitch: append things to it! https://www.google.com/?q=cliki+skip+list 00:50:58 hey hunchentoot-using folks, is detachtty still the preferred way to use hunchentoot (on linux) these days? 00:51:24 slyrus: I started using screen about 3 years ago. 00:52:02 but I still have one app that uses detachtty simply because it works and I have not had time to change it. 00:52:36 but really, `screen -x` is what I prefer these days 00:52:54 it looks nice anyway but would have expected much more NIH from lispers 00:52:57 Bike: that's funny. I was starting to get frustrated but haven't reached chapter 5 yet. I guess I just need to be more patient. 00:53:46 soverton: read the book, completely. then, start over, and read it again. If it is still 2013, read it again! ;) 00:53:48 soverton: as I recall, the book starts out by developing the concepts, and then 5 and 6 have a sort of provisional reference in the style of the CLHS 00:55:02 *drewc* wishes he had of done so before working on his first metaclass .. then I would not have to deal with my former selfs buggy code. 00:57:58 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:01 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:59:46 reading the book twice is a good idea, I think. I'm working on a project and found myself doing something with classes that was a little krufty and thought I should check out AMOP 01:00:16 mephisto [~mephisto@bas7-toronto63-1128542401.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:00:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:27 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:27 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:42 It's a good thing I did, since as I started reading the book, I thought to myself, "Damn, I was trying to implement the metaobject protocol!" (without knowing what I was doing, of course) 01:00:44 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:01:59 well, after reading the book, you will likely realize the very rarely is AMOP required, and CLOS as is can handle 99.999% of issues. But, knowing how they can be handled, well, it helps to know MOP. 01:03:21 (that is my experience anyway, having 5 metaclasses that I use every day that I shouldn't use at all, but the time required to make a new app is, well, daunting) 01:03:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:04:11 billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has joined #lisp 01:05:01 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:45 I'm doing some work with a hunchentoot web server and wanted to develop a metaclass where I could add some additional attributes to slot definitions to say that some slots can be handled specially and represented in a certain way, like a slot that can be only true or false and is rendered in html as a checkbox, for example. 01:08:55 I'd like to be able to say that in the class definition, but right now I'm just making my own "defclass!" macro that stores that information external to the class. 01:09:50 speaking of NIH, anyone use restas-deamon instead of detachtty/screen? 01:09:54 But I want to be able to subclass those classes and then I have to re-invent inheritance for those slots and so on. 01:10:42 soverton: well, that is not something a metaclass should be used for, IMO. For that matter, I would not name the macro DEFCLASS!, but , say , DEFINE-HTML-DISPLAY-CLASS, or something related to what it does ... 01:11:13 soverton: right now you want to ask drewc about LoL 01:11:41 but then again, I have worked for over 8 years on my LoL code, so know how much I hate metaclasses that are not needed. 01:12:20 drewc: it's sad it isn't better document. it's one of the few systems i know of which use ContextL 01:12:27 LoL="Let Over Lambda"? 01:12:34 and if it was not for my commercial application that uses LoL, ROFL, and UCW. 01:12:45 *Quadrescence* hopes to never see another macro called DEFCLASS* . 01:12:47 Lisp on Lines (it has nothing to do with Ruby on Rails like things though) 01:13:12 soverton: not in this channel, LoL when referring to a book is Land of Lisp! 01:13:51 *drewc* was kidding , but only just kidding .. just... 01:14:07 soverton: Let Over Lambda is L/ ;) 01:14:45 Oh, now I need to figure out how to type a lambda character! :) 01:15:15 <_tca> just press your lambda key 01:15:21 soverton: Or just don't talk about that book. 01:15:23 Let over Lambda is "that book that I read over before it was released and stopped believing in it at all' ;) 01:15:36 http://i.imgur.com/SPNkL.png 01:15:41 hmm just lost power in brooklyn wtf 01:16:07 maxm: tf is sandy, of course. 01:16:37 *drewc* has clients in boston and has heard/seen/dealt with the east coast issues all day/ 01:16:39 . 01:18:33 Okay, thanks everyone for the advice. I'm off to do some reading. :) 01:19:00 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 01:19:32 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 01:19:41 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:19:48 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:38 pretty weird to sit without power, but with internet and everything... well while UPS holds off 01:22:28 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-251-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:22:50 drewc: Oh. Now that I'm looking at LoL, I see that it's probably what I was trying to write. 01:22:51 maxm: heh .. I live on a sailboat ... so if I cannot plug in to 110v AC, well ... I can last approx 1 month if there is no sun at all for that month. 01:23:22 thats amazing 01:23:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:24:22 soverton: well, then, if you do not care about closures because you like dynamic scope more, and do not want to use UCW, or any call/cc implementation for that matter ... than LoL is not so bad! 01:25:06 maxm: and. of course, my internet is because I tether to my android phone... so cellular. 01:26:24 (and all my primary computerse are thinkpad laptops/notebooks, because they run off of battery when needed) 01:27:02 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:38 -!- mephisto [~mephisto@bas7-toronto63-1128542401.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:17 lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-192-51-198.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:30 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 01:29:46 I've stumbled upon some interesting behavior in SBCL: 01:29:59 Steps are: (1) run a benchmark, (2) replace a top-level form with its equivalent macro expansion, (3) clear fasls and reload, (4) benchmark is 2X slower. 01:30:19 I've repeated this several times to verify it's not a fluke. Intervals are somewhat short, in the range of 70ms to 150ms. The steps to reproduce are not hard, if anyone is curious. 01:30:38 I have guesses about what might cause it, but not well-educated ones. 01:31:47 Jubb [~ghost@c-69-143-14-148.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:48 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 01:32:54 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36:45 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:38:15 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:18 bah. detachtty seems to have been removed from ubuntu at some point. 01:39:30 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 01:40:31 slyrus: i've switched from screen to tmux a while ago and did not look back 01:40:50 slyrus: tmux is easily scriptable, and i'm using it for my hunchentoot based deployments. 01:40:55 care to add some idiot-proof instructions to the hunchentoot docs? 01:41:26 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 01:41:31 Greetings lispers 01:42:26 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 01:43:01 slyrus: i think that this would encompass too many things specific to one or another lisp implementation. 01:43:52 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 01:44:29 grumble grumble... I'd like a simple set of scripts that can be used to start hunchentoot on linux/sbcl. since there doesn't seem to be any standard, I'll keep trying to maintain the outdated crap I used to use. 01:45:07 that unfortunately used my hunchentoot-launcher which doesn't work with new hunchentoot and hunchentoot-vhost which stopped working when the server design changed a while back. 01:45:26 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 01:47:04 slyrus: with my systems, starting hunchentoot is just part of the general server startup. i use buildapp frequently now, too. every system is somewhat different. i think a general how-to-script-tmux tutorial is what you want, and then, that is very primitive. 01:48:02 ah, but the question is, is every system different because it _should_ be or because 80 million people wrote similar but different things to do the same tasks? 01:48:15 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 01:48:40 slyrus: every system is different because with lisp, everyone gets the chance to do things right according to their own personal perception of "right" :) 01:50:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:50:22 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:23 slyrus: but while there is some truth in that, it is also true that every lisp system _is_ sufficiently distinct from every other lisp system to warrant an own startup mechanism. there just is no framework like rails that suggests the "right" way to a large portion of the user base. 01:54:55 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:47 CrazyEddy [~geobios@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:57:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.235.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:59:31 hrm... where did enough-url go? 01:59:50 slyrus: it is in puri 02:00:20 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 02:01:53 fine, but it used to be in misc.lisp 02:03:27 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:13 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@1.140.209.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:38 Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:08:04 Bike: you were right. The AMOP book starts becoming much more clear with chapter 5. I think that with the way my mind works, I should have started with chapters 5 and 6 and then started back at chapter 1. :) 02:08:16 whatever works 02:08:44 turns out hunchentoot-cgi has been broken for a couple hunchentoot revs. I guess no one uses it. 02:09:06 except for maybe the guy that wrote http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12292447/is-enough-url-function-deleted-in-hunchentoot-1-2-3 02:09:24 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 02:10:03 -!- soverton [~soverton@24.89.41.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:19:18 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 02:22:08 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:23:36 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:49 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 02:24:50 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 02:24:50 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 02:25:03 -!- antonv 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I'm presented with clisp and cmucl by my package manager. For general purposes (will likely be using Lisp with OpenGL), does my choice here matter? 04:40:23 sbcl would be a good choice 04:40:41 Jeaye: which os? 04:40:55 soverton: Arch Linux 04:41:02 sbcl is also available. 04:41:28 I'd definitely go with sbcl but ecl might be fun 04:41:35 I don't really care about portability, since I'm just learning lisp for fun outside work. 04:41:44 (To get my mind off C++) :P 04:41:58 ecl being the implementation which compiles to c 04:42:05 Ahh 04:42:35 So, are the only differences in the implementaions? I mean, they all follow the same standard so they syntax is the same, right? 04:42:45 (Other than some experimental features, I s'pose) 04:43:05 Jeaye: yes. Have you looked into slime? 04:43:33 some parts of the spec are open to interpretation 04:43:34 soverton: I'm a Vim user. 04:43:44 I read that slime was for Emacs, right? 04:44:18 Jeaye: yes, it's for emacs. I think there's something similar for vim, though. 04:44:31 I'll look into it. 04:44:48 slimv for vim 04:45:04 nightfly_: that's right. 04:45:20 Jeaye: implementations can have their own syntax, e.g. ccl has been historically mac-oriented so it has some extra stuff for interacting with objc. but generally implementations are pretty serious about conformance. 04:45:22 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:34 http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 looks good. 04:45:39 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:43 nightfly_: Gah, beat me to it. 04:46:39 Gah, so many options. It's always a safe bet to go with sbcl, yeah? 04:46:50 Jeaye: definitely 04:47:14 Kickass. Thanks, folks. 04:47:39 Jeaye: no problem. Good luck 04:50:42 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.52.112] has joined #lisp 04:51:43 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:17 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:42 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:20 btw, the recent-ish hunchentoot fixes seem to have done wonders (as measured by banging on it with ab) 04:54:22 thanks! 04:55:15 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.52.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:56:20 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:57:25 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:58:38 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:03:20 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 05:14:14 BlankVerse 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joined #lisp 08:06:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:06:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:08:48 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-29-79.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:44 hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:16:50 Jeaye: For Lisp + OpenGL, I recommend sbcl + the cl-opengl bindings. Sbcl has a very good foreign function interface, which is obviously important when doing OpenGL programming in Lisp. 08:21:23 Cheers. :D 08:21:57 are there wrappers for lisp with SDL ? 08:22:39 ngz [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:57 elkng: There are, but I have never used them. 08:26:40 -!- ngz [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:27:23 loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:25 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:38 ngz [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:57 theplanet^2 [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 08:28:20 ngz` [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:39 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:30:31 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:32:50 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:18 urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-145.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:38 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:39:39 AntiSpamMeta_ [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 08:39:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta_ is now known as AntiSpamMeta 08:40:03 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~textual@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:40:35 ArmyOfBruce [~textual@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:09 -!- ngz` [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:42:09 moore33: in what relevant ways SBCL's FFI differ from that of any other impl well supported by CFFI? 08:42:33 Ralith: I was afraid someone would ask that :) 08:43:37 -!- ngz [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:03 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:09 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 08:45:30 Ralith: that's an ambiguous question 08:46:02 then supply an ambiguous answer! 08:46:09 I think you've hit it with "good CFFI" support. An implementation that has good CFFI support should be fine with e.g., cl-opengl. I happen to know sbcl, cmucl, and ccl pretty well and recommend them from personal experience. sbcl and cmcul obviously don't differ much. ccl has a very good ffi and would be the obvious choice on a Mac. 08:51:59 add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-164-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:53:27 For my own recent forays into OpenGL programming, sbcl gets the nod because of: 1) native thread support 2) mindshare 3) old habits die hard 4) one of the implementors has stayed in my house several times :) 08:55:52 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:02:50 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:18 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:04:36 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-138-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:02 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:51 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:40 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 09:09:02 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 09:13:27 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:19:46 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 09:21:21 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 09:23:32 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:25:03 -!- mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has left #lisp 09:25:09 mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has joined #lisp 09:25:17 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:28:24 phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:24 -!- phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:28:24 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 09:28:43 (I would wish there was a dynamic tiling window manager written in Lisp) 09:29:33 stumpwm? 09:29:34 you wish there was clfswm? 09:30:06 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:30:14 -!- dunib [~dunib@58-7-88-150.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:31:03 dunib [~dunib@203-59-112-141.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:31:18 ams: Stumpwm is not dynamic, you have to do all the work by yourself (Creating frames, splitting frames etc) 09:31:43 ams: I was more thinking about a clone of dwm or xmonad. 09:32:18 i never used those, seems dynamic if you can tweak if .. specially at run time. 09:32:24 Ralith: I am checking it out now! 09:32:40 "CLFSWM is highly dynamic" 09:33:11 ams: That is another dimension of dynamic :). What I meant is that the window management itself is more automatic. 09:34:44 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:34:45 Atomsk [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:35:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:40:27 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:21 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 16:56:21 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:21 16:56:21 -!- names: ccl-logbot Ralt stat_vi yrk Ralith superflit piko_ Natch booguie nan_ rvirding _d3f catmtking Slivka jtza8 karswell kliph bitonic soverton gigamonkey jewel faust45 qptain_Nemo wbooze thethomaseffect findiggle Yuuhi kushal doomlord guyal__ kennyd prxq eMBee antgreen setheus_ lduros sbryant rmarianski tensorpudding Jasko2 fantazo sambio Khisanth answer_42 LiamH c_arenz TristamWrk peterhil` gffa Vivitron Xach theos naryl Alice3 CrazyWoods antoszka agumonkey 16:56:21 -!- names: pkhuong vhost- postfuturist tdmackey felideon rtoym paul0 phadthai Praise joshe trigen ``Erik kuzary renard_ Atomsk dunib tcr mrcarrot wormphlegm ferada add^_ ArmyOfBruce AntiSpamMeta urandom__ theplanet^2 loke_erc mrSpec m7w punee ineiros xan_ mishoo tali713 cdidd angavrilov mathrick Tanami sykopomp Codynyx billstclair maxm Euthy cmatei quasisane aoh teggi Oddity tessier CrazyEddy kpreid ivan\ Jeaye herbieB Nisstyre arrsim _Mon_Ouie_ tomaw brandonz 16:56:21 -!- names: yeltzooo slyrus redline6561 copec rdd Forty-3 adx Kvakz rdqfdx mindCrime sellout42 enymo bobbysmith007 acieroid stokachu axion gilez Nshag hlavaty [SLB] _veer moore33 ezakimak jeekl ianmcorvidae sshirokov beaumonta foom jrockway ivan cryptic strobegen ered s0ber teiresias em p_nathan yan_ vsync CampinSam christoph_debian Quadrescence yroeht nowhereman cmm- housel pchrist ahoops RenJuan cic_ p8m phrixos jsmonkey Demosthenex prip_ jdz varjag pavelpenev 16:56:21 -!- names: mcsontos RiskyBlit Yamazaki-kun kanru` ZombieChicken hiro3 theBlackDragon pjb-v luis Krystof bzzbzz zbigniew hiyosi Odin- fasta felipe cYmen aerique sepisult1um drdo MoALTz CoverSlide setmeaway Patzy Posterdati gkeith_lt BlastHardcheese p_l|backup cods impulse ramus flip214 rotty oGMo nitro_idiot_ tychoish gabot galdor Mandus H4ns freiksenet konaya Viaken Subfusc boyscared robonyankitty dsp_ rfgpfeiffer slava_ Borbus adeht sigjuice froggey dim scode 16:56:21 -!- names: reactormonk nuba tkd johs cmbntr_ daimrod MikeSeth tvaalen_ astopholos_ newcup clop basho pareidolia Adeon ft dmbaturin wccoder asedeno_work surrounder mouflon guther PECCU veemon sytse wuehli ski kirin` mstevens p_l elliottcable arbscht smithzv dan64 BeLucid_ hohum_ otwieracz gf3 nightfly_ SHODAN egn jsnell @fe[nl]ix cpt_nemo schoppenhauer df_ rabite jasom YokYok brendyn __class__ terjesb turbolent kanru mal_ frodef drewc antifuchs mdh rvchangue 16:56:21 -!- names: jjkola_work Tordek guaqua asciilifeform kindergip ans limetree madnificent ASau Amadiro robot-beethoven varjagg Gurragchaa z0d spacefrogg^ sysop_fb sweet_kid mtd cyphase peterhil literal_ aajmakin dRbiG DrPete easye fmu lide NimeshNeema kleppari mikaelj hopohopo dlowe __main__ JPeterson ams araujo bps foo303 scharan samebchase hpd cross_ clog derrida jaaso Tehnix ozzloy j_king |3b| REPLeffect Tristam Obfuscate lemoinem cibs rking cataska koisoke Fade 16:56:21 -!- names: Buglouse djinni` The_third_man joast _schulte_ ecraven pok dfox SeanTAllen vert2 oconnore les DrForr xaxisx Jabberwockey _tca gemelen barik jayne qsun xristos _root_ finnrobi 16:56:21 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:41 ams: I was never an ITS hacker, but I have fooled with getting an emulator running; I can't remember if I ever got MacLisp to run. 16:56:45 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:53 ams: It would be fun to hear more details about your setup. 16:57:39 moore33: http://up.update.uu.se/ 16:57:59 moore33: i did a copy of UP and create AS; which is my ITS boxen. 16:58:23 Thanks for the pointer. 16:58:36 moore33: victor is a good friend of mine. 16:59:13 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:00:03 idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:01:20 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 17:01:50 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:59 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:02:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-171-214.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:23 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-171-214.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:03:27 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:03:48 By the way, do you need to do anything special in git to have the containing defun show up in the diff headers? I had thought that that was broken for Lisp code. 17:04:18 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:47 fms [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:08 moore33: for GNU diff (i am not familiar with lesser diffs); you can pass -F '^(defun ' 17:05:53 joik [~chatter44@utdpat241140.utdallas.edu] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 moore33: maybe you can pass that to git-diff or whatever 17:06:28 whats the smartest way to go about short circuiting a function in lisp? 17:06:29 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:06:34 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:36 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:06:39 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 17:06:48 joik: what do you mean? 17:06:49 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.244.77] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 well ive gotten the value i want someway down the stack 17:07:38 and want the rest to all stop at once 17:07:51 joik: you can use signal 17:07:56 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 17:07:56 ^^ 17:08:29 will that work like a return in more conventional languages? 17:09:02 joik: common lisp is conventional. if you are looking or a way to return just from the current function, use return-from 17:09:47 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:58 joik: catch/throw, block/return-from, tagbody/go are all ways to 'short circuit' operations like that. 17:11:01 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:04 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:11:50 moore33: man gitattributes has a recipe for getting the diff hunk right for TeX 17:11:55 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:12:28 thank you for asking the question, because I knew I'd seen the answer somewhere but couldn't remember where 17:13:00 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:05 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:14 Now while reading forward about common lisp, I met the function (last x) and I wonder if it is an expensive function? As the lists are basically linked lists, I suspect it is something that is expensive to run 17:16:33 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:16:40 mrcarrot: Indeed, it's O(n) on lists. 17:17:05 sellout42: Also in the implementations? Or do they implement it as an array internally? 17:17:10 why just O(n) and not O(logn) ? 17:18:06 because with a linked list you have to traverse every cons to find the end, of course. 17:18:09 -!- fms is now known as ebobby 17:18:40 mrcarrot: they are probably linked lists internally as well. luckily, if you want them there are also arrays. 17:18:54 mrcarrot: I'm not sure if the spec specifies the implementation, but if you implement lists with arrays, then you break assumptions about other operations, too. 17:18:54 Okay, thanks! I new that linked lists are O(n), but wondered if it is in some way optimized internally to something lese. 17:18:55 ah 17:19:22 snearch [~snearch@f053003136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:24 -!- CrazyWoods [~CrazyWood@61.154.68.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:24 EG, cons is O(1) on a linked list, but not on an array. 17:19:33 Yep. 17:20:11 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 17:20:12 mrcarrot: it used to be semi-common to do a thing called cdr coding that sort of made them arrays internally, but nowadays we just use arrays when we want arrays. 17:20:44 Yes, the idea is to use the right data structure for the job. 17:20:48 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:50 CrazyWoods [~CrazyWood@61.154.68.212] has joined #lisp 17:21:03 Building up from conses, arrays, structures, classes, etc. 17:21:06 Thanks, I just wanted to know, so I know what to avoid. 17:21:53 does (or... short circuit? 17:22:20 Krystof: "Defining a custom hunk header"... awesome 17:22:24 joik: yes. 17:22:33 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 id rather avoid a returntype statement as its out of paradigm 17:23:08 even within the clisp runtime? 17:23:43 joik: a non-short-circuiting OR would have different semantics, so yes, always. 17:27:06 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-171-214.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:13 If I want to measure how long time a function takes, how do I do? Is there a ready function for that? 17:27:30 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:27:35 (time 'function.....) 17:27:36 --time? 17:27:39 err wait 17:27:45 (time (blah.....) better 17:28:08 mrcarrot: TIME is the standard macro for it. detailed profiling is done with implementation-specific features. 17:28:14 Thanks. I am checking up (describe 'time) 17:28:23 mrcarrot: see also http://l1sp.org/cl/time 17:28:27 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:27 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-171-214.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.244.77] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 17:32:02 I've checked it out, and implementing an short and sweet zs3:key-exists-p doesn't seem possible 17:32:30 yrk: no? 17:32:44 I haven't checked it out, but I'd guess ZS3:HEAD might be a starting point 17:33:48 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-178-39-146-39.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:37:00 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 Xach: actually, I thought of co-opting getting the object metadata, and seeing if that fails 17:37:22 but that feels kludgy 17:37:45 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:37:47 What did you think it should be like? 17:38:02 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:41 -!- bitonic [~user@wavelan76.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:21 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:33 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:43:21 Xach: not sure what you are asking. but if it works reliably for about a week I'll submit a patch for my version of zs3:key-exists-p 17:43:52 In a test I made with a simple program I had been writing in haskell, and now in lisp, lisp (sbcl) outperformed completely haskell 17:44:06 yrk: I mean, why is it impossible to do short & sweet? What would short & sweet look like and what did you get instead? 17:45:08 mrcarrot: it's even easier to write programs that waste CPU cycles and RAM in haskell than in CL. 17:45:13 mrcarrot: that's interesting 17:45:28 mrcarrot: That reminds me of a joke. A maine farmer visits his rancher friend in texas. the texan said, "I can drive all day and when the sun sets i'm still not at the other end of my ranch". the mainer said "i used to have a truck like that too." 17:45:32 Brucio-52 [~Brucio-52@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:44 surrounder: It was nothing complex, just calculate the 100 000:th fibonacci number. 17:46:06 Haskell took 2.6 seconds, sbcl took 0.73 seconds. 17:47:17 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:30 -!- Brucio-52 [~Brucio-52@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:34 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:49:10 *sykopomp* learned today that APPEND behaves a lot like LIST*. 17:49:16 gm-djm-1959 [~Brucio-52@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:30 sykopomp: yup. concatenate if you need a fresh tail. 17:51:48 yeah. 17:52:18 I was always perplexed by LIST*, but I think it makes sense that it have those semantics when I think of the most natural implementation. 17:52:22 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:52:41 pkhuong, when is the last time you NRECONCed 17:53:11 ...even though I don't remember the proposed use case for the strange (list* 1) => 1 behavior. I think Xach pointed it out last time I asked. 17:53:16 Quadrescence: a couple times when I abuse lists too much. 17:54:50 haha, I don't think I ever saw that one 17:55:02 that's really pretty cute 17:55:28 sykopomp: news to me. good lisp quiz fodder. 17:55:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:34 em__ [~em@user-0cev0ko.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 -!- gm-djm-1959 [~Brucio-52@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 17:56:39 yrk: or, could i just see what your function looks like on lisppaste or somewhere? 17:56:51 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:57:32 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:07 *sykopomp* actually wonders what the practical use case for (list* x) is, even though the implementation semantics seem more natural now. 18:00:07 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:00:27 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:07 I was doing great with vim, but now with repl and slime it looks like i need to invest some time on emacs... Anyone using vim here for lisp? (sorry if it is one of those annoying questions) 18:04:16 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:26 nan_: there are some slime-style things for vim, though my impression is that they're incomplete. but they do exist. 18:04:35 slimv is the one i remember, but there is at least one more 18:05:15 Xach: i have tested a few of them but they are nothing close to emacs slime as far as i can see. 18:05:26 nan_: http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html :) 18:05:35 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 I think Emacs is pretty great and worth learning. 18:05:42 it's close enought... 18:06:04 cnl [~pony@91.203.66.41] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.252] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 enough 18:07:23 it's worth knowing both, imho 18:07:35 Xach: It looks like a great programming environment, yet you need to invest some quality time, that is the problem. 18:08:04 pnpuff: thanks i am trying it now 18:08:12 nan_: nobody knows ahead of time if any time you invest pays off 18:08:13 sykopomp: I've used list* as an alternative to (nconc (list ...) ...) 18:08:44 -!- joik [~chatter44@utdpat241140.utdallas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:09:05 dlowe: list* is one of the great hidden treasures of the spec. 18:09:20 very uncommon to see that in the wild. 18:09:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:33 (I found out about it after 10 years :-) 18:10:09 dlowe: not list* in general. I like list* just fine and use it somewhat often I think. 18:10:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:10:38 it's the (list* 1) => 1 that I'm wondering about, practicality-wise. 18:10:43 oh, I see. 18:10:50 well, what else would you do 18:10:52 I used to use list* rather a lot before I learned that APPLY could take more than one argument. 18:10:55 throw an error? 18:11:07 part of me feels like I would rather get an error. 18:11:09 more than two, i mean. 18:11:30 I'm not sure where I got that impression about APPLY, but it was pretty strong. 18:11:46 Daisy [Daisy@109.58.198.202.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 18:11:51 I think apart from some weird composition use cases that I've never run into, any time (list* 1) => 1, it would probably be an error in my code. 18:11:57 so I'd rather it not hide it. 18:12:33 sykopomp: the power lies within you! (and CL:SHADOW) 18:12:38 Xach: can't use paste.lisp.org for some reason, but my 6-line version seems too short to be right because it only asks for the meta data and then checks for (= code 200) 18:12:59 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:06 dlowe: I generally trust CL to have made the right decisions, and I don't think this is worth shadowing a perfectly good symbol over! 18:13:35 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.31.130.16] has joined #lisp 18:14:32 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:14:47 -!- em__ [~em@user-0cev0ko.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:15:01 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 (as a side note, Racket says (list 1 2 3) => '(1 2 3)... note the quote. Interesting) 18:16:32 yrk: that seems pretty good, what would be more ideal? 18:16:42 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:26 sykopomp: there was a nice post on what readable output should look like on one of the dev's blogs. They say it helps with read/evaluation confusion. 18:17:30 -!- soverton [~soverton@24.89.41.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:32 sykopomp: what does the equivalent of read-from-string give you from '(1 2 3) then? 18:17:45 sykopomp: what is (car (list 1 2 3)) in raket? 18:18:14 -!- idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has left #lisp 18:18:23 ams: that part is as expected. 18:18:31 I remember that something along those lines came up at some time during my slime hacking too 18:18:37 sykopomp: weird. 18:18:55 pkhuong: I'd say it puts a bandaid on something that needs to be learned anyway... 18:18:56 Xach: I'd have to work through some of the Amazon API docs to say. Perhaps nothing but I can't say until I read their stuff and convince myself that it the case. The fact that I'm asking for the metadata and looking for the existence for the side effect of if the file exists bugs me. 18:19:02 if read gives you differently than you write, that seems more confusing than temporary newbie misconceptions 18:19:04 to make copy pasting listy repl results work 18:19:11 Xach: but I guess this doesn't have anything to do with zs3 18:19:13 it's printing something it's not, after all. 18:19:21 yrk: It sounds like a personal problem. 18:19:32 Slime doesn't do the right thing :-) 18:19:53 Even though it had the possibility as long as the repl result is still cached at least 18:19:57 what? because of presentations? 18:20:25 sykopomp: I'm not reporting faithfully here. It made a lot of sense, though. 18:20:32 Xach: yes, when I get a call that someone can't find their file it will be personal problem 18:20:46 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:21:23 yrk: I guess I just don't understand your elegance criteria. 18:21:53 Checking the HTTP status on the HEAD of an object feels perfectly natural to me, but YMMV. 18:22:14 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:15 Plus, ISTM eventual consistency might cause strangeness if your program checks for existences or looks at metadata and data with multiple requests. 18:23:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:24:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:26:43 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:28:53 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:30:33 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.31.130.16] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 18:31:35 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:39 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756be5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:46 -!- CrazyWoods [~CrazyWood@61.154.68.212] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:40:08 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:42:14 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 18:44:05 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-171-214.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:55:53 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:14 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-qdrdjpobulshqaft] has joined #lisp 19:00:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:02:23 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:02:51 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:01 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.86] has joined #lisp 19:06:09 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:29 antifuchs: ok best of both worlds, emacs + vim = evil, it looks like quite stable (any heretics.. err evil users here?) 19:09:39 haha 19:09:55 I'm not an evil user, sorry 19:09:56 nan_: its' what I use, and what I recommend for lisp development for vim users 19:10:15 I find evil is closer to vim than slimv is to slime 19:10:43 there are a couple of quirks if you accidentally do crazy stuff to the fancy REPL buffer 19:10:59 but those might have been fixed in the past few weeks 19:11:12 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 19:11:44 nan_: I am at the moment using evil. 19:12:07 jasom: if you are able to limit its usa to only source edit buffer, it would be great 19:12:11 nan_: I am new to lisp, but decided to give emacs another chance because of slime. 19:12:12 gkeith_glaptop__ [gkeith@nat/google/x-cmnxefksqrrkhrhv] has joined #lisp 19:12:19 mrcarrot: *cheers 19:12:32 jasom: its use* 19:12:53 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-039-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:53 nan_: you can in fact do that, I think, but I like to use it on the REPL 19:12:59 mrcarrot: great i am not alone :) 19:13:56 you'll want to add M-. to normal mode in slime buffers though (by default it only works in insert mode, which is annoying) 19:14:07 jasom: i keep dropping to normal mode, it looks strange moving in terminal/repl when you are in normal mode 19:14:21 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 19:14:49 nan_: I think I can never get used with emacs keybindings. I tried a half year to adapt to emacs, but it was not possible, and I gave up on emacs and went back to vim. This is my second attempt to again try emacs. 19:15:46 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:16:12 nan_: This time with evil to help me. 19:16:41 mrcarrot: i always wanted something between vim and emacs, didn't know something like evil exists 19:16:49 evil is very real 19:17:02 sorry. 19:17:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:18:20 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-138-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:34 gm-djm-1959 [~gm-djm-19@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:37 sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:20:06 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:23:41 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:42 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 19:26:37 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has joined #lisp 19:27:08 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:46 -!- gkeith_glaptop__ [gkeith@nat/google/x-cmnxefksqrrkhrhv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:47 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-qdrdjpobulshqaft] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:34:54 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:35:20 Any postmodern users around that can answer a question about time zones? 19:35:40 don't ask to ask, ask. 19:35:58 The value returned by (get-universal-time) != the one returned by "select cast(now() as timestamp without time zone)" 19:36:15 -!- antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-245-215.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:37:10 herbieB: What did you expect? 19:37:47 The two universal times to be identical 19:38:12 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 19:38:48 On my postgres, a timestamp without time zone does not return what I would consider a "universal time", but I have not read the SQL spec on the topic. 19:38:50 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:07 Instead, it returns the local time and no time zone info. 19:39:50 Well, either way, now() should return the current time, and postmodern is translating that into a universal time (the CL concept) that is not the same that is returned by (get-universal-time) 19:40:13 herbieB: "Convert a timestamp to the corresponding universal-time, rounding to seconds. Note that this will treat the timestamp as if it were in UTC." 19:40:23 you need to convert now() to UTC first 19:40:54 Hmmmmm 19:41:04 IIRC there is some integration between postmodern an local-time? That might work better as local-time knows about timezones. I've not used it myself though 19:41:22 (I haven't used postmodern with local-time) I use local-time all the time 19:41:25 i use local-time with postgres all the time, it works very well. 19:44:15 antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-204-199.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 19:46:04 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:46:44 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DC11FBD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:44 Kvaks [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-064-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:00 -!- theplanet^2 [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:16 baaked [~baaked@99-91-160-174.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:29 what's the best way to generate x==y==z 19:51:38 or x0 == x1 == ... == xi 19:51:48 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 19:52:04 baaked: (= x y z)? 19:52:14 What do you mean by generate? 19:52:15 ah 19:52:20 (equal... only takes two arguments 19:52:31 evaluate 19:52:37 baaked: If you have a list of many things and you want to see if they are all equal, you can do something like this: 19:52:43 (every #'equal list (rest list)) 19:53:01 If you want to use =, you can possibly apply it. 19:53:06 someone should really derpacate (equal... 19:53:23 I wish derpacate was a thing that could be done. 19:53:29 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:24 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:54:30 see also http://lisptips.com/post/11391361367/comparing-many-objects 19:55:01 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-039-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:14 it seems like (/=... doesn't extend properly 19:55:27 (/= 5 7 5) gives nil 19:55:51 baaked: Were you expecting it to return MAYBE? 19:56:28 baaked: did you read the documentation on it? 19:56:39 dlowe: let's not get crazy now 19:56:44 eh, i'm having a hard time finding decent docs 19:56:52 clhs /= 19:57:02 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 19:57:12 common-lisp.net down again? 19:57:12 See http://l1sp.org/cl/= for the authoritative documentation 19:57:13 it seems like due to the nature of the language much of it is tutorial 19:57:23 m| 19:57:45 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 baaked: There's a very good standard document available online, and many tutorials. When you want to know the details, the standard can't be beat. 19:58:06 i guess i was expecting if any two numbers were non-equal 19:58:19 Now you know better. 19:58:23 baaked: before you start to expect, you need to learn the language. 19:58:30 baaked: That's (not (= )) 19:59:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.244.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:59:56 yeah, that looks like how i'm to do this 20:00:16 it's a bit better than what i had before but it still seems long-winded to me 20:00:24 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DC11FBD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:01:27 -!- gm-djm-1959 [~gm-djm-19@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:19 Brucio-12 [~Brucio-12@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 -!- Brucio-12 is now known as gm-djm-1959 20:03:43 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:43 (= isn't working for nil though, i guess i'm stuck using equal 20:04:03 What are you actually trying to do? 20:04:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:54 return true if two atoms are nil 20:06:07 dlowe: the machine is up, but I have no idea how/where to restart the bots, so that have not been up since friday. 20:06:08 and false otherwise 20:06:17 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.244.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 baaked: (not (or a b)) 20:06:29 (not ( or (equal nil (car l)... 20:07:08 ah, iguess that is the logical operator as well .-. 20:07:36 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-021-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:42 baaked: please, continue reading your textbook on common lisp 20:08:06 (and (null a) (null b)) 20:08:53 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-164-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:09:37 (notany #'identity (list a b)) 20:09:59 so many options 20:10:16 add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-164-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:11:05 There's More Than One Way To Do It! 20:11:57 that's why i find fare's recent "curating libraries" effort kind of problematic 20:12:20 i mean, sure, everyone likes the 100% solutions, but everyone likes a different 100%, too. 20:12:46 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 20:12:47 Ok, guys, I have unified on single LLVM and design-by-contract libraries, per Fares instructions ;) 20:12:47 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:53 VeriLISP 20:13:21 (not (or nil nil)) still gives an error 20:13:43 baaked: are you sure that you are trying to program in common lisp? 20:13:49 clisp 20:13:52 H4ns: I think there's a happy medium, though. EG, with LLVM, there were three libs, now there's one. There's not much in the way of reasonable difference (and the minor ones that did exist have been sorted out amiably). 20:14:03 is the implementation, i couldn't tell you the version though 20:14:09 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:14:15 2.43 20:14:27 And with testing libs, there might be a few different approaches that have separate merits, but probably not all of the dozens that exist. 20:14:37 i for one would be very surprised if (not (or nil nil)) didn't work in any CL implementation 20:14:43 sellout42: sure. there is a lot of room for that. but there are lots of overlapping libraries that each have a different basic approach, so unifying them will be hard, if not impossible. 20:14:52 baaked: What is the error you're getting? 20:15:06 odd, having restarted the interpreter, it now works 20:15:14 it was giving me some not a number error 20:15:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@105.237.24.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:51 i guess i'll simply use the verbose expression, because it's behaving unexpectedly without it 20:17:05 baaked: both (equal and (or working fine, you mean (= giving not a number error? 20:17:13 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:15 baaked: "unexpectedly" is heavily dependent on correctly knowing what to expect. 20:17:27 (not (or (equal nil (car l0)) (equal nil (car l1))))) 20:17:28 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 20:17:36 and (not (or (car l0) (car l1))) 20:17:40 should be the same thing right? 20:17:43 oh wait 20:18:00 apparnetly logic is different to me depending on the color, nevermind 20:18:13 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:18:24 herbieB: use the channel, i cannot give private support. 20:18:27 it was like that in chuck mccarthy's colorlisp 20:19:06 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:38 H4ns: Sorry 20:19:55 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:21:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.244.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:23:24 Even with setting local-time to have a utc-zone, and using local-time with postmodern, I get "@2012-10-31T16:19:46.733057Z" when I "select cast(now() as timestamp without time zone)" 20:23:49 and you would expect what? 20:24:07 Well, the current time is 20:20Z not 16:20Z 20:24:15 what does (local-time:now) give you? 20:24:23 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:30 H4ns: @2012-10-31T20:23:15.345275Z 20:25:03 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:30 -!- gm-djm-1959 [~Brucio-12@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:08 herbieB: works for me. (pomo:query (:select (:now)) :single!) returns the same as (local-time:now) 20:26:38 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 20:27:09 You aren't casting it 20:27:21 herbieB: no. why would i want to do it? 20:27:28 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:27:30 I suspect that without a timezone, local-time applies the local time zone to the time 20:28:04 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:28:07 Well, having the datetimes in the DB as tiemstampe without time zone was a deicison outside of my power 20:28:30 herbieB: then you need to use the correct time zone when loading data from the database. 20:29:00 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.244.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:03 well, it might be an oversight in the postmodern+local-time glue 20:29:17 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756be5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:29:26 assuming that *default-timezone* is set to +utc-zone+ 20:29:48 dlowe: I did set it so, but even when it was set otherwise, it returned 12:30 -4:00 20:30:25 So it's consitently dealing with the same time 20:30:45 yeah, it's just four hours off 20:30:55 *dlowe* sighs. 20:31:05 I don't know when/if I'll have time to look at it 20:31:24 dlowe: I have no problem looking at it, I'm already in that code 20:31:27 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:33 well, happy hacking then :) 20:31:34 dlowe: Not sure if postmodern is passing local-time the wrong value, though 20:32:59 quite the rabbit hole 20:33:17 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:33:20 I recommend liberal use of TRACE 20:33:37 and make sure to look up the sbcl trace extensions, if you're using sbcl 20:35:39 look at cl-postgres.lisp - it expects the db server to be in UTC 20:36:13 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:31 Hmmmmm, everyone seems to 20:36:53 I guess it's time to just bite the bullet and write my own timestamp reader 20:37:15 I geuss the only change would be to expect the postgres server to be in the *default-timezone* zone 20:38:12 local-time reads /etc/localtime on startup for its default timezon 20:38:18 I imagine postgres does too 20:39:04 dlowe: Yeah, true, and postgres is running on the same server, so it's certainly assuming everything is in that timezone. However this return value from postgres, or postmodern, strips the timezone without altering the time 20:39:09 My guess is postgres is doing it 20:41:30 -!- Daisy [Daisy@109.58.198.202.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:42:55 francogrex [~user@109.130.110.224] has joined #lisp 20:43:04 herbieB: what timezone are you in? 20:43:29 EST 20:43:41 which is GMT-4 right now 20:44:05 Correct 20:44:19 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053003136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:44:25 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:44:37 so it sounds like postgres is returning the time in the current timezone 20:44:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:01 Yes, without timezone information. 20:45:06 "Conversions between timestamp without time zone and timestamp with time zone normally assume that the timestamp without time zone value should be taken or given as timezone local time" 20:45:33 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:45:42 so that sounds like everything is doing what it is supposed to be doing. local-time is taking the timestamp as if it were UTC and then postgres is passing it as EDT without timezone info 20:45:49 Yeah, that's what I was guessing. I don't think postgres is doing anythign wrong here. 20:46:09 so the solution here is just to let local-time use the local time when encoding 20:46:13 But I'm not sure what the solution is with regard to local-time. Probably no good one. 20:46:24 then use utc during formatting or decoding 20:46:33 Well, localtime on the postgres server may not be the same as localtime on the current server 20:46:39 oic. 20:46:45 I mean, it is in MY case 20:46:46 well, yer screwed then. 20:46:51 should have used utc :p 20:46:58 Hahah, I'll tell that to my DBAs 20:47:01 you could set TZ to utc for postgres 20:47:05 They love it when I'm telling them how to configure things 20:47:22 or issue the "SET TIME ZONE" at the begginging of each session 20:47:25 Quadrescence: if you are around thanks for your post and the "with-cond-once" macro, it works very well 20:47:28 the schema just needs a bit of a tweak 20:47:55 but I'm pleased that once again, against all odds, it wasn't a bug in local-time 20:48:14 It's much easier to just write a function myself 20:48:43 will postmodern respect the PGTZ environment variable? 20:49:04 dlowe: Yeah, the only thing local-time could do would be to have a *postgres-timezone* variable one could set 20:49:58 herbieB: well... how do you know what the postgres timezone is? 20:50:17 I'm confused as to how writing the function yourself will help matters 20:50:23 now()::timestamp 20:50:59 dlowe: Well, that variable would be configured by the application dev, right? 20:51:02 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.69.49.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:51:06 *drewc* works in postgresql every day, 90% of the time using postmodern 20:51:12 -!- enymo [~user@nat.sierrabravo.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:23 this one: http://paste.lisp.org/display/13346 although the annotations are not good (faulty), the original code is very good 20:51:29 drewc: Hm? 20:51:54 herbieB: you can set *default-timezone* to whatever timezone you think postgres is using 20:52:06 drewc's suggestion is probably the best one, though 20:52:20 one thing I always do is set the postgres timezone to UTC .... 20:52:36 drewc: Not within my power 20:52:44 drewc: That's the source of the problems 20:52:45 gaaah postgres stores timestamps as double-precision floats? 20:52:58 drewc: Unless you mean for the sesion 20:53:36 In which case, that might be what I do, as jasom suggested 20:54:08 dlowe: Setting *default-timezone* doesn't seem to help here. After all, the math done to create the timestamp is independet of timezone (at least in the postgres crossover function) 20:54:34 SET TIMEZONE 20:54:35 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:37 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 20:55:11 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:56:08 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:11 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:50 drewc: Right 20:58:12 speaking of local-time, is there an easy way to get the number of days between two timestamps? 20:58:14 flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-145-248.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:58:29 felideon: timestamp-difference 20:58:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:07 felideon: also local-time:+seconds-per-day+ 20:59:08 oh, the doc is out of date? http://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/manual.html#index-timestamp_002dwhole_002dyear_002ddifference-95 20:59:23 (- (day-of a) (day-of b)) ? 20:59:38 felideon: apparently so. 20:59:45 select now() - '1901-01-01'::timestamp 20:59:59 horrifyingly so, really 21:00:05 H4ns: thanks 21:00:24 *drewc* is still thinking of SQL cod eand not local-time .. doh 21:00:25 felideon: depending on your needs, herbieB's suggestion may be better 21:00:28 the documentation in the distribution is current, I'm pretty sure 21:00:33 regarding the DBA joke... any server that is running in non-UTC time without specific need is *bad* idea 21:01:05 select to_char(now(), 'TZ'); 21:01:21 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:24 ok, done playing with SQL code, my apologies! 21:01:28 -!- nan_ [~candodget@24.133.102.40] has left #lisp 21:02:03 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 21:02:29 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 21:02:32 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 21:02:35 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 21:02:38 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 21:02:57 Thanks for the help peeps :) 21:03:57 H4ns: true. herbieB, thanks. 21:05:17 does anyone know of a free hosting site where if lisp is not already a scripting server side language, that at least we can upload/build a lisp implementation and get the capability to use it as server side like perl or php etc... ? 21:05:57 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 21:06:32 I use x10hosting (linux based) although I can upload my lisp to it (same architecture, I can 't integrate it with their apache) 21:09:42 heroku? 21:10:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.222] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:11:06 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-021-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:20 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-079-061.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 Bike: yes but that is if I am using my own computer as a server. If I do that I already know how to do it sucessfully. But i'm talking about a server that would host my shit (not my own server) 21:14:04 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.69.49.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:20 or is heroku already a server out there? 21:15:35 It's in the 'cloud'. 21:16:18 hard to imagine what that means, I'll suppose it's a server 'out there' 21:17:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:18:23 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:28 -!- hopohopo [me@unaffiliated/hopohopo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:20:46 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:22:16 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:22:48 You get a virtual server, 'out there' as you say. 21:23:38 "in a fragile data center somewhere in virginia" 21:23:46 or worse, US-EAST-1 21:23:49 francogrex: I've been looking a bit (other stuff sidetracked me) into getting it running on some more servers 21:23:58 felideon: until the benevolent heroku team decide to stop it or go bankrupt etc... that is depending too much on the unknown 21:24:11 sykopomp: well, it's fault of idiots that don't use separate DCs... 21:24:20 Daisy [Emhh@109.58.106.214.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 21:24:48 but yeah, better than nothing I guess 21:25:19 I need to sit down and figure if there's actually any need other than "run custom binary" 21:25:26 you keep backups, move everything over, solved 21:25:27 CL deployment can be... weird ;) 21:26:23 sykopomp: for all of those moanings about a certain Amazon datacenter, I recall a story of a clojure startup that didn't notice the disruption because they actually separated geographically their backup servers :> 21:28:32 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-164-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:28:47 tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:29:54 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:33:35 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:08 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:15 I'm tired of mucking around with php..; 21:35:02 ... I start a job mucking around with php 21:35:02 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:04 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:06 unless there a a lisp to php translator 21:35:16 francogrex: someone mentioned writing one once 21:35:18 p_l: when? now recent? 21:35:48 job? from monday. Translator? some people mentioned generating PHP with lisp 21:35:52 your job yes 21:36:38 it's not that bad a language really, but you know you have cl, why do i need other stuff? 21:36:44 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:52 assuming they won't freak out seeing that I forgot to lie to my doctor about mental illness :/ 21:38:31 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-128-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38:35 you'll be programming in a dark room in the cellar of the building, they won't mind about your mental illness 21:38:45 in fact it may be in your advantage 21:38:59 francogrex: not when you need security clearance 21:39:05 and weapon trade concession 21:39:22 you work for the pentagon? 21:39:51 not pentagon, but military r&d institute (and not USA military, either) 21:40:12 i see... hmm well 21:40:13 not really involved in anything requiring those, but law is law 21:41:17 look when they hire lisp programmers they have to know that it comes with what it comes with, it's a whole package 21:42:02 francogrex: they weren't interested in lisp, they were more interested in someone knowing a bit about web and java, I think 21:42:04 it's a risk they're ready to take it seems, lisp programmer but a looney... benefit/cost balance 21:42:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-079-061.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:42:30 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-079-061.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:19 well, I'm not exactly looney. Mental stuff is wide, deep, and complex. Kinda like edgier areas of physics 21:43:56 I know I was kidding 21:44:19 http://scriptor.github.com/pharen/ this one but it's a fucked up lisp dialect, not common lisp 21:44:30 I have a loonie in my pocket! 21:45:06 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:45:56 francogrex: the 0mq guys used to develop stuff with XML driving templates generating various languages :) 21:46:06 greetings folks! 21:46:12 unfortunately I can't use code generators 21:46:16 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:47 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:18 how many SBCL_HOME variables I have to set to use more than one version of the sbcl implementation? 21:49:59 or even this one: https://github.com/deliciousrobots/lisp-to-php 21:51:16 lol 21:51:28 php? :( 21:51:38 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:51:38 nooo 21:51:39 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 21:53:13 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:14 pnpuff: shit happens 21:54:06 de gustibus 21:55:50 but shit it's useful (at least :) 21:56:32 the nothing no. lol 21:56:49 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:53 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 21:59:06 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:02:02 dlowe: would you be interested in adding such a function to local-time? https://github.com/felideon/local-time/commit/8cba6a2dd2eb6689b27fa60adb13bd7c76653c8b 22:02:44 my next step would be to support the following format: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133469 22:08:35 -!- piko_ [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-079-061.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:10:43 Sorella 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[Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:49:26 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:45 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:56 so regarding ignoring multiple expressions, i modified a bit of sbcl source (portably): , which is a bit nicer than the nested reader hack 22:56:03 it's probably of limited use, e.g. to disable keyword arguments depending on build flags or the like 22:59:00 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-69-228-54.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:20 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-145-248.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:48 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.110.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:35 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 23:03:46 flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-145-248.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:04:28 -!- mrSpec 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Leaving.] 23:29:34 cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:29:44 is there a way on sbcl to get the machine word size (i.e. the size at which sbcl can do efficient modular arithmetic) 23:29:55 can you hotswap code in ccl/sbcl? 23:30:44 cornihilio: you can redefine functions at any time. Just be aware that functions that inlined the old-version should be recompiled too 23:31:06 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:07 jasom: ah, thank you! 23:32:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:32:55 cornihilio: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm specifically "defun can be used to define a new function, to install a corrected version of an incorrect definition, to redefine an already-defined function, or to redefine a macro as a function 23:33:20 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:33:46 jasom: I think there may be multiple sizes. 23:35:29 jasom: most-positive-fixnum may be of interest 23:35:52 Ralith: yeah, I can get most-positive fixnum and round it up to the nearest multiple of 8 bits 23:35:59 just wondering if there is a better way 23:36:02 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Modular-arithmetic 23:36:14 jasom: what are you actually trying to do? 23:37:43 Ralith: I am serializing fixnums, but I want a bytwise sort to preserve ordering, so I subtract most-negative-fixnum from the value. I want a type I can declare the result to be. Right now I just round-up the number of bits in a fixnum to multiple of 8 23:37:54 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:38:16 tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:38:51 a bytewise sort of what? 23:39:01 Ralith: the resulting serialization 23:39:27 you're serializing a single fixnum into some bytes, and then sorting those bytes? 23:39:56 Ralith: no serializing many fixnum into bytes, then sorting those strings bytewise 23:40:09 (and by string I mean sequence of bytes, not lisp strings) 23:40:46 why not sort the fixnums, then serialize the sorted result without reordering? 23:41:28 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-79-217.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:30 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:32 Ralith: okay I'm actually not sorting them. I need a serialization that preserves sort order though as I'm putting them in a trie type structure 23:42:05 superflit_ [~superflit@63-225-247-217.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:42 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:42:59 sorry, still not really following; sort order of what? what does that have to do with how you serialize fixnums? 23:43:22 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-79-217.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:44:24 Ralith: given a serialization S() on a fixnum that yields a sequence of bytes, I want a left-to-right bytewise comparison of S(x) and S(y) to be the same as comparing x and y 23:44:37 -!- superflit [~superflit@209-180-241-20.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:44:37 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 23:44:47 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 23:45:36 the easiest way to do this is to just subtract most-negative-fixnum from the value, and then serialize MSB first 23:45:49 ah, I see. 23:45:51 *Xach* is reminded of bob jenkins' oracle articles 23:46:46 Xach: not familiar with those 23:47:05 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:47:09 but why do you need to perform comparisons on the serialization, rather than performing them before serialization or after deserialization? 23:47:30 the oracle disk format for integers is byte sortable on disk and uses a wacky radix scheme to do it. 23:47:38 *Xach* digs it up 23:47:56 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-145.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:48:13 Ralith: I'm putting them in a crit-bit tree, and if your serialization preserves comparison order, than it is trivial to iterate on the keys in order 23:48:20 http://burtleburtle.net/bob/other/sql.html point #9 23:49:18 guess I'm not sufficiently familiar with the data structure in question 23:49:32 Ralith: it's true in general for any trie like structure 23:49:52 at any rate, your current approach to bounding fixnums seems perfectly sane 23:50:05 (format t "Bot?") 23:50:15 Aww 23:50:40 Jeaye: just use an IRC client with a REPL builtin 23:51:14 or a REPL with an IRC client built in. 23:51:56 heh 23:52:11 davyzhu [~user@114.91.106.95] has joined #lisp 23:52:14 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:53:15 jasom: I guess you want to be able to iterate over the tree without even partially deserializing it? 23:53:46 Ralith: I want to walk the tree in-order and be iterating over the keys in-order 23:54:08 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:54:17 without deserializing it. 23:54:51 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:55:02 Ralith: whether or not there is deserialization is orthogonal to the question 23:55:26 the external nodes should be in sort order by the keys that lead to them 23:55:51 Hi, I try to run (sb-ext:disable-package-locks 'symbol) in sbcl, 23:55:51 but sbcl say "The function SB-EXT:DISABLE-PACKAGE-LOCKS is undefined"? 23:56:31 jasom: I'm having trouble seeing how the serialization has anything to do with the order you iterate over it when it's loaded into your applicatoin. 23:56:43 except as a efficiency of deserialization concern. 23:56:52 davyzhu: that is not a function, it is the name of a restart. 23:56:59 Ralith: the serialization is only because tries work on strings 23:57:38 davyzhu: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Package-Lock-Dictionary.html#Package-Lock-Dictionary has the scoop on what to do with package locks in sbcl 23:57:52 Oh, sorry - not a restart, but a declaration. 23:58:32 davyzhu: out of curiosity, why do you want to disable package locks for SYMBOL? It's usually better to shadow instead. 23:58:39 Is this for the norvig code? 23:58:42 *Xach* is having deja vu 23:58:59 Yes, I try to run Norvig's code.