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Did the two patches I sent go through? They show up on the web page. 00:57:58 mcox: i got them 00:58:38 Ok thanks. 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[~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 07:36:08 hey, I'm looking at the backtrace for something, and I know that if I hit 'v' one some of the backtrace numbered points I can see the source, but on certain numbered points I get: "Error: cannot find source location # I have a very basic understand of how to interace with the slime debugger as well 07:39:39 recompile the code in question at a higher debug level 07:40:24 Ralith: how would I go about that? 07:40:36 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:40:45 in SLIME? 07:40:58 iirc, C-u C-l 07:41:06 or was that C-k 07:43:50 uh right now I'm compiling my code in slime with quickload since I created it with quickproject... how would I apply your method to that? 07:43:51 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:45:22 loading code with quickload does not mean you can't then reload parts of the code later through SLIME 07:45:56 if you don't want to do that, though, iirc you put (declaim (optimize (debug 3))) at the top of the file 07:47:34 I don't see that here though: http://www.pchristensen.com/slimecommands.pdf 07:48:10 Ralith: no I'd like to learn how to do that, I mistakenly thought that using quickload/slime compiling commands were mutualls exclusive 07:48:21 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 07:48:28 mutally* 07:48:35 mutually** 07:49:10 the ultimate authority on slime commands is C-h m 07:49:36 oh, right 07:49:38 C-u C-c C-k 07:49:58 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-6-190.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:16 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:52:17 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:52:18 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:52:18 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:52:32 Ralith: do I have to put declaim in each file I want to debug? I think I want to compile 2 libraries with that statement. Do I have to put it in manually? 07:52:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:53:20 I'm not aware of an alternative, though I wouldn't be surprised if one existed 07:53:41 what implementation are you using that doesn't save some level of source locations at default debug level? 07:55:02 Ralith: uh... if you mean cl implementation I am using sbcl atm. 07:55:51 I don't think it's normal for SBCL to behave like that unless you've requested optimizations. 07:56:43 well I haven't tried anything fancy, err at least I think I don't think I have. 07:57:08 but thank you very much! putting those declaim statements in certainly helped! 07:57:16 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-6-190.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:16 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:58:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:59:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:00:53 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 08:02:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:03:06 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483A699.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:06:10 cornihilio: Ideally, ASDF had support for specifiying declaration around the compilation of a system (but I don't think it has got such support yet) - so either you add that yourself with a suitable :around method and PROCLAIM, or you can use SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY on sbcl interactively. 08:06:37 cornihilio: using RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY, you can tell SBCL to never use e.g. a DEBUG level lower than a specified value. 08:13:32 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:16:39 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:53 paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:20:46 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:21:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:21:26 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-6-190.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:26 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:43 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:07 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-6-190.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:25:40 kmels [~kmels@p5B13EF40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:46 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:34 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:47:58 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:48:55 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:34 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 08:51:22 paul0` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:52:28 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:54 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:04 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:55:52 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:46 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:59:27 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:08 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 09:01:15 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.189.206.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:07:05 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 09:09:23 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-6-190.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:40 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 09:10:44 I used plain-odbc to access sqlite and oracle databases, but odbc although good is not great/portable. I am searching for another such interface: clsql is disappointing. I want to try cl-rdbms 09:11:26 but there is almost no documentation in it? that's a pity to see nice libraries with little to no documlentation 09:12:12 people do a lot of good work on such libraries but then they are incomplete / non-friendly because lacking docs and examples :( 09:13:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:13:34 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13:38 paul0`` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:13:54 francogrex: do you actually need to repeatedly move between database backends? 09:15:29 -!- paul0` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:15:38 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:17:58 paul0``` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:18:00 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-38-7.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:21:05 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:25 Ralith: yes it's quite advantageous to me to keep one interface 09:21:58 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:04 -!- paul0`` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:22:11 why? 09:22:20 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:21 good morning 09:22:39 -!- paul0``` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:22:41 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 09:22:56 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 09:24:32 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:25:23 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:26:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-130-169.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:32 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-111-169-176-119.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 09:27:32 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:28:01 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:28:19 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has joined #lisp 09:28:33 paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:28:46 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:29:20 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has quit [Client Quit] 09:38:24 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:49 paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:39:08 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 09:42:51 hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 09:44:10 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 09:46:35 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:51 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:55:06 baaked [~baaked@99-91-160-174.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:20 http://nopaste.info/4782c82117.html well, i can do it with (format... 09:57:41 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 any help? 09:59:17 if you want help, it may be advisable to ask a question. 09:59:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:00:04 oh well, i have this silly output, which is indeed a list, however i can't seem to come up with a way to make it less silly, constructing a list within a recursive function 10:00:30 sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:30 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:00:30 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 10:00:42 define 'silly', define 'less silly', and post your code 10:01:15 Ralith: I think he means a simple list instead of a fully nested one 10:01:49 i just can't seem to think of a way to use the constructs i know to accomplish that 10:02:08 save writing a flatten function, which is almost sillier 10:02:20 if you paste your code, we can help you baaked 10:02:56 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 10:03:28 http://nopaste.info/1f41c741b8.html 10:03:38 is the relevant source 10:05:00 perhaps i don't understand how to use return statements, because it looks correct to me, in terms of the last references to out. 10:05:13 you don't need return statements in lisp 10:06:16 first, you should remove your setq when you return a value 10:06:22 The_third_man: sometimes one does need them 10:06:31 then say you want to do something really silly, like generate a ranged list recursively 10:06:40 yes jdz, but not often 10:06:47 how would you go about doing it so that the final output would be flat 10:07:37 (cons current_element (recursive call to the function) 10:07:39 ) 10:07:46 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:07:52 ah 10:08:11 it is silly isn't it? 10:08:13 your recursive call returns a list, you just insert your current element in the returned list 10:08:31 the stop case just returns a list with only one element 10:09:05 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:09:19 that seems much less silly, thank you! 10:09:53 because clearly the best way to reference the remainder of the list is by what the function returns 10:10:08 it is the simplest way 10:11:09 paul0` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:11:20 also, you'd think clisp would have a nice operator for (list ... 10:12:07 I don't really understand what you expect with 'a nice operator' :o 10:12:08 baaked: "operator"? like what? 10:12:19 -!- prip_ [~foo@host215-217-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:12:20 like the way apostrophe is used for "don't evaluate" 10:12:33 you'd want a flatten function ? 10:12:49 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:58 essentially 10:13:13 I'm pretty sure it exists 10:13:19 but that's not the good solution 10:13:20 baaked: QUOTE is a special form, apostrophe is a reader macro. there are no operators. 10:13:23 -!- paul0` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:13:34 baaked: maybe you want backquote? 10:13:35 hhaha 10:13:35 before using such functions, you should have a good program baaked 10:14:06 the fact is that in your code, you don't need a flatten function, because a good recursion is enough 10:14:15 true 10:14:45 such functions are not there to patch design flaws ;) 10:14:50 the language flattens it in such a form by default, if you're paying attention 10:14:57 ? 10:15:09 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:10 well yeah, of course, chelper is a list 10:15:24 so if you assume that it is a list, then indeed, it's easier to operate upon 10:15:52 just a quirk, i guess 10:16:08 I don't really get you point 10:16:36 paul0`` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:16:50 well,i was coding under the assumption that an end result would needed to have explicit bookkeeping involved 10:16:51 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:17:06 wheras that occurs, if you use the language properly 10:17:27 :) 10:17:31 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:19:13 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-047-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:22 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:24:49 prip_ [~foo@host157-125-dynamic.3-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:26:45 sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:45 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:26:45 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 10:26:46 how would I print out the type of an object? 10:27:47 (format t "~A" (type-of my-object)) ? 10:32:02 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:32:06 The_third_man: thank you! 10:34:59 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:35:01 leoncamel [~user@124.126.218.104] has joined #lisp 10:39:46 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:50:01 antgreen` [~user@dsl-173-206-246-39.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 10:50:58 -!- antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-243-53.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54:44 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:54:56 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 10:56:50 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:59:36 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:49 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:44 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:25:07 moore33 [~moore@46.169.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:02 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:03 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:26:03 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 11:30:51 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:31 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:33:57 cornihilio: a good tip kis if you have a question about how to do something, ask your lisp system directly; like using 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tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 13:25:59 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:44 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:29:39 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:49 people who use the BITFIELD with the CFFI groveller may be interested by my patches here: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/13/commits 13:34:10 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 13:35:24 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:54 LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:06 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 13:38:26 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-30-29.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:52 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 13:42:55 Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:52 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:46:41 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:47:42 -!- thethomaseffect1 [~thethomas@109.255.215.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:49:02 ams: apropos? how would I use that to find type-of? 13:49:31 hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:49 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:54 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn903-51.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:50:48 (apropos "type" :cl) perhaps 13:51:27 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:52:53 jsmonkey [~jsmonkey@80.252.215.26] has joined #lisp 13:53:56 newcup: thanks! 13:54:07 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:55:21 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has 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[ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:26:12 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 have anyone read land of lisp? is it good? 14:27:24 or rather would you recommend it as a first book for a newcommer to lisp 14:27:34 jsmonkey: i have heard both positive and negative reviews 14:27:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:28:00 jsmonkey: from what i understand, it is nice for beginners who do not look for too much precision. 14:28:47 jsmonkey: if you know other programming languages, look at 'practical common lisp'. if you're more of a scientist with no or little prior programming knowledge, consider 'a gentle introduction to symbolic computation' 14:28:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:30:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:39 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:41 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:31:43 H4ns: ok cool. I know a bunch of languages. I googled have seen that a lot of people reference to practical common lisp. Then I saw land of lisp and it seem like a very non formal and fun book but did not know if it's even worth reading 14:32:16 I going to read an emacs lisp book after I have read my first common emacs book, since I just started to use emacs a month ago or something and starting to want to config my own 14:32:26 H4ns: thanks for the tips! 14:32:54 will do "land of lisp" then "practial common lisp" and then the free book on emacs lisp 14:33:03 It will help to keep firmly in mind that emacs lisp and common lisp are pretty different in style, application, history, culture, etc. 14:33:07 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-lrmgvsmbnluxqyoy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:09 jsmonkey: enjoy, and good luck 14:33:34 H4ns: thanks :) have a very good lisp guy at work (at least emacs lisp). the language is so powerful 14:34:10 jsmonkey: what Xach says applies - just because someone is good at emacs lisp does not necessarily make them a common lisp authority 14:34:19 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-lpvkxxnazeqfgnth] has joined #lisp 14:34:44 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 14:35:06 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:40 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 14:35:46 H4ns: of course not. I understand that alot of emacs lisp is done around buffers and such concepts that are not in common lisp since it's a general purpose langauge 14:35:59 but that is just the 'envrioment' the language itself will be the same I guess? 14:36:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 14:36:05 Nope. 14:36:15 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 14:36:17 no? so not like coding javascript on the server with node and on the web with the window etc 14:36:20 ? 14:36:22 Not at all. 14:36:25 oh 14:36:30 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:36:32 why is that? 14:36:53 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206127.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 14:37:09 Common Lisp has a lot more features, like a package system, an object system, a condition system, lexical scoping (emacs lisp is catching up on that), strong number system, etc 14:37:35 An emacs lisp programmer starting on common lisp would likely not know to take advantage of those things 14:37:43 jsmonkey: they're different languages. 14:37:44 jsmonkey: most lisps share some small core that is rooted in the original lisp invented by john mccarthy, but each of them extended that core into a practical programming language. 14:37:55 Xach: and most importantly -- condition system! 14:38:07 Xach: oh, you mentioned it 14:38:25 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:38:29 does not hurt stressing it, though 14:38:37 is lisp a good programming language for topological sorting problems, please answer in simple english because im no native speaker, thanks 14:38:51 jdz: don't forget the condition system 14:38:53 blbef: yes. 14:39:12 is it an end of semester already? 14:39:32 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:39:38 Xach, pkhuong, H4ns : I see. Thanks for clearning that out! 14:39:40 jsmonkey: look at paul graham's articles for some historical perspective on lisp (http://www.paulgraham.com/lisphistory.html). you will recognize that there is a long history with many different paths taken. 14:40:32 H4ns: thanks will read that. Loved hackers and painters by graham 14:40:38 -!- ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-152.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:41:30 H4ns, thank you have you any idea how to start? for example books or something with this specific topic? 14:42:03 blbef: i'd start with google. 14:45:33 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:38 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-251-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:06 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 14:47:42 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:48:00 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:05 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:49:19 -!- p_l|edge is now known as p_l 14:49:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-100.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 14:50:00 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 14:52:12 H4ns, thats no good advice if the necessary foreknowledge is not available 14:52:53 blbef: As far as I know, there is no literature on applying Lisp to topological sorting problems. It is good at solving all kinds of problems. Practical Common Lisp is a good book on Common Lisp. 14:52:54 -!- sellout42 is now known as sellout 14:53:53 huh ? 14:53:56 kenzo ? 14:54:48 i think that's about topology itself not sorting tho...... 14:56:50 blbef: first, you need to determine whether there is foreknowledge on the topic you are interested in. that is something that google (and citeseerx) are useful for, and that'd be the first step that i'd make. 14:56:55 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 14:57:07 sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:07 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:57:07 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:58:15 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:08 stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.26.26.217] has joined #lisp 15:01:22 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-60-84.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:01:35 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.9.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:11 Xach, i think you mean http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 15:02:23 H4ns, i dont meant it that way 15:02:26 teggi_ [~teggi@123.21.156.4] has joined #lisp 15:02:34 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.156.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:03:01 blbef: i find that often when i need to work on something and i suspect that prior knowledge exist, i need to first determine the vocabulary that i need to use to find that prior knowledge. 15:03:37 blbef: so maybe "topological sorting problems" is too general a term and you need to find better terms to get to the papers that you're interested 15:03:39 blbef: yes 15:03:58 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:41 blbef: lisp has been used in a vast number of different fields, so maybe you'll even find something that intersects with your problem area and is written in lisp. if you do not, lisp may still be the right choice of programming language, but you'll certainly have to learn it first. 15:04:45 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:04:51 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 15:06:52 H4ns, ok but the search "problem" of finding the right vocabular is now my own topological problem, the circle problem 15:07:14 blbef: it is sad that work is so hard. 15:07:41 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 15:09:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:10:35 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:10:53 If work was easy, *everyone* would do it. 15:11:52 heh 15:12:37 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:12:52 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.100.226] has joined #lisp 15:13:26 -!- karswell 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[~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:21:17 p8m [~p8m@67.210.179.76] has joined #lisp 15:22:06 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@121.11.46.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:54 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:23:39 stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.10.255] has joined #lisp 15:23:41 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:27:29 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:08 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 15:30:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:30:37 -!- cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:30:56 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 15:31:19 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.10.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:31:29 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:03 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 15:33:40 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:35:16 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.230.227.123] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:35:20 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:39 stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.15.95] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:39:06 H4ns, "but you'll certainly have to learn it first."-> i know but my maybe silly idea was to learn it a way that my problem gets faster to a solution 15:40:49 blbef: lisp is no environment catered toward the solution of toplogical sorting problems if you had hoped that. 15:41:08 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 15:44:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:45:50 paul0``` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:46:19 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 15:46:49 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:47:30 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 15:47:35 -!- paul0`` [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:47:35 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 15:50:26 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:42 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:50:57 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 15:51:09 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:51:14 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:51:37 H4ns, no, i just wanted to know it theres a way to start "problem-orientated" but i dont know im reading at the moment http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and it seems a good start 15:51:49 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 15:52:31 -!- paul0``` is now known as paul0 15:52:44 stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.12.201] has joined #lisp 15:52:45 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:53:00 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:53:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:53:55 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.15.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:54:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 15:57:47 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0024e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:53 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.12.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:00:09 cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has joined #lisp 16:00:14 stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.8.51] has joined #lisp 16:00:38 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:00:40 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.47.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:07 kmels [~kmels@p5B13EF40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:39 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.8.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:17 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 16:04:31 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:12 stlifey_ [~stlifey@121.11.47.52] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:10:39 what would be the best free Implementation for common lisp? 16:11:34 stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.12.45] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 blbef: sbcl is the most popular. clozure cl is second. 16:11:52 "best" is hard to quantify. 16:12:12 if you want interoperation with java, ABCL might be the best, for example. 16:13:30 all active CLs are the best at something 16:14:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:07 MKCL is the best at being a fork of ECL 16:14:23 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@121.11.47.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:15:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:15:50 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:16:29 my choice would be the standard choice sbcl but is jave the only or best method for system interoperability? 16:16:29 Xach: there is no such thing as a "bad publicity" 16:16:45 *java 16:17:09 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:17:14 blbef: I don't think so. 16:19:10 what do you think is the best method? 16:19:30 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 16:19:34 blbef: I don't know what you mean by "system interoperability", sorry. 16:21:45 cross-platform 16:22:13 RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-190-243.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:22 "I don't think so." -> what do you meant? 16:23:05 blbef: SBCL runs on many convenient platforms already. 16:23:20 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 16:23:32 I use it on Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux. Clozure CL has a similar story. 16:23:52 isn't sbcl on ARM in progress? 16:24:36 Xach, so sbcl makes "fat binaries"? 16:25:16 blbef: No. It has native binaries on many platforms. 16:28:14 Xach, so it means the target computer needs a special program? 16:28:33 blbef: Not necessarily. 16:28:35 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:28:54 It can produce applications that include everything needed to run the software. 16:29:28 do the asm or the java ? 16:30:03 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 16:30:27 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:32:15 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 16:32:57 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:56 doing it the native asm way, you mabe have to tweak it for the jvm of the android.....dalvik it's called i think..... 16:37:15 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:29 you may end-up with a dalvik specialized asm or so....maybe, i dunno.... 16:39:20 Joreji [~thomas@76-224.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:39:53 jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-40-38-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 16:43:14 is SLIME the best interface? are there other? 16:43:42 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:44:17 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:44:28 blbef: SLIME is pretty great, especially if you already know & love emacs. there are other interfaces. the commercial CLs come with their own GUI interfaces. 16:45:57 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-100.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:29 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-142.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:49:04 Xach, has SLIME a real-time output? 16:49:13 blbef: yes 16:49:56 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:26 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 16:50:29 sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:29 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:29 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:50:29 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:50:30 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 16:51:03 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:05 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:43 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 blbef: are you a vim user? then try slimv. 16:54:17 sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:54:17 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:54:47 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 16:56:24 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 16:57:45 what is better slime or vim? 16:57:53 emacs 16:58:03 +slime 16:58:07 +paredit 16:58:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:15 jup 16:58:30 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:58:35 blbef: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52?&noredirect&pli=1 has some good advice 16:59:35 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 blbef: If you are a vim user, I can recommend slime + evil. If you aren't a vim user, no reason not to just use slime 17:01:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 17:01:18 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-047-046.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:25 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 or lisp in a box? 17:04:08 im no vim user 17:04:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:05:10 blbef: what OS are you using? 17:06:38 windows7 17:07:00 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 17:07:17 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:33 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 17:09:49 hmmm; honestly not sure of the best windows setup. For both linux and OS X, what works for me is install Emacs (however you want to do that) install quicklisp http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation then quicklisp slime helper https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper 17:10:55 win7: emacs-for-win, mingx, slime, quicklisp, sbcl..... 17:12:09 wbooze: which emacs-for-win? this one? http://code.google.com/p/emacs-for-windows/ 17:12:12 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 17:12:24 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 for emacs on windows, i can recommend http://ourcomments.org/Emacs/EmacsW32.html 17:12:50 i've used that together with slime successfully 17:13:18 im little bit confused what do i need to use slime on windows? 17:13:25 well, i have mingw toolchaing etc...too together with msys...if i want that..... 17:13:45 blbef: you'll need emacs, a lisp implementation and quicklisp 17:13:58 H4ns, both? 17:14:00 blbef: slime is not OS agnostic as you think, get the emcacs for win ! 17:14:03 blbef: yes. http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 17:14:05 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:14:28 blbef: i mean slime works on most platforms per se...you don't need anything special, make sure your emacs does run tho.... 17:15:05 i had issues or have issues starting an sbcl inferior in emacs without slime, but with slime it works somehow.... 17:15:27 some forking fails or so..... 17:15:30 blbef: instead of clisp as in the blog post, you can also use clozure cl easily. 17:16:11 sbcl too? 17:16:33 blbef: yes, but i don't know where the windows installer can be found. 17:16:54 -!- benny [~user@i577A12E8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:59 just google for emacs for windows 17:17:21 there are two versions afaik, one zip file the other executable... 17:17:33 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 wbooze: _or_ he can just use the url that i have provided him. 17:17:41 you can install both ways, if you use the zip you have alter your env (PATH etc) yourself.... 17:18:06 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:14 so if i want to use sbcl(compiler)+slime(interface=editor) i have to install what exactly? -> i read now http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 17:19:17 and those are snapshots of the cvs/vcs/git or whatever repo, not working maybe, but you should check from time to time..... 17:19:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:51 blbef: read and follow the instructions. they tell you what to do. 17:20:26 blbef: the win version of sbcl, just quicklisp , and copy the version in your quicklisp to the emacs load-path..... 17:20:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:20:48 blbef: we already told you emacs-for-win...tho... 17:21:09 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:21:39 blbef: depending on if you want to start emacs in win7 natively or via mingx you may install mingx too....it gives your Xorg in win7 17:21:44 basically.... 17:21:51 that way you can use clx.... 17:22:02 and other libs which use it or depend on it.... 17:22:43 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:22:51 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:20 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:37 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:25:13 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27:18 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@188-195-197-131-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 17:30:58 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:31:01 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:34:50 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:37:03 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:48 sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-172-113.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:37:49 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:39:20 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39:33 why do i need emacs AND slime? i now have emacs 17:39:47 blbef: slime is a plugin for emacs 17:39:52 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:39:54 blbef: why do you not follow the instructions? 17:40:05 blbef: you can assume that the post contains precisely what you need. 17:40:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 i do i do.. 17:40:24 blbef: please 17:40:33 shifty`` [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:41:28 -!- shifty` [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:41:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:04 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 mrcarrot` [~user@86-60-145-168-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 17:47:22 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:47:56 -!- mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:48:24 where is the non-beta of quicklisp? 17:48:32 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:42 blbef: it is still in beta, but it seems rock solid 17:48:42 there is none 17:48:44 blbef: there isn't. However, the beta works really really well 17:52:44 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.53.18] has joined #lisp 17:53:08 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.254.178] has joined #lisp 17:54:30 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:55:51 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:07 ah ok 17:57:42 windows shows the program clisp might be not installed well 17:58:08 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.12.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:58:24 could 64bit be a problem? 17:59:14 blbef: what happens if you try running it? 17:59:19 1. make sure that it's a x64 binary 17:59:34 2. reinstall 17:59:41 32bit app on 64bit should work if it does not depend on 32bit userspace! 17:59:41 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.101.64] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:58 s/depend/depend strictly/ 18:00:03 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:08 Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:09 *jasom* has used 32-bit clisp on winXP 64 18:00:27 there is no 64bit http://sourceforge.net/projects/clisp/files/clisp/2.48/ 18:00:36 eheh 18:00:49 blbef: 32-bit should work fine 18:01:04 so i ignore the message 18:01:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:40 The latest version is 2.49 btw 18:01:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:02:08 Indecipherable: there are some reports of issues with 2.48 not working well on windows (at least according to the blog post H4ns linked to) 18:02:13 antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-242-248.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ here he says i should use 2.48 18:02:18 s/2.48/2.49 18:02:23 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:03:12 the problem now clisp opens a white window and closes 18:03:52 Hmm... I never had a problem with 2.49 18:04:33 Saw something about broken pathnames or whatever once, though. 18:05:14 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:43 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.101.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-224.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:06:27 Joreji [~thomas@76-224.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:06:45 stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.14.28] has joined #lisp 18:07:02 oh theres a bug in 248 now it works:) 18:09:25 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:09:54 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:41 blbef: perhaps clozure cl is a better option for windows (and with that i hope others will jump in to say if i'm right or wrong, i don't do windows) 18:11:52 madnificent, why that? 18:12:45 blbef: i think it is stable on windows as well, and it's a tad better supported by slime etc. it's also faster in it's execution IIRC. but you shouldn't take my word on anything when windows is connected to it. i don't have first-hand experience. 18:13:15 blbef: also, just do what gets you started. if you write comforming common lips programs, you can swap out the compiler, and pick another one :) no need to rewrite the applications. 18:15:44 madnificent, thank you, for the moment i will complete this instructions -> http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows 18:16:07 stlifey_ [~stlifey@59.35.103.10] has joined #lisp 18:16:35 I wonder if south park is on today 18:16:42 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.14.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:16:52 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:17:34 Indecipherable: wrong channel 18:17:56 blbef: should work. good luck 18:18:07 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 18:18:30 Yep, it is 18:20:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-224.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:20:38 this takes forever, somebody should make a simple program for that... 18:22:50 -!- hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:24:13 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:36 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:24:43 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 blbef: that someone could be you! 18:27:21 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:43 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:22 madnificent, :) 18:28:32 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:28:41 how can i make a \ in clisp 18:29:35 it must be because of windows.. 18:30:41 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:30:44 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:00 -!- mrcarrot` is now known as mrcarrot 18:31:04 blbef: In a string it's just \\ (e.g. "C:\\foo\\bar" 18:31:10 -!- mrcarrot [~user@86-60-145-168-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:10 mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has joined #lisp 18:31:27 Are you referring to paths? 18:31:59 i meant i cant type it via AltGr+\ 18:32:01 generally it's either / or \\ 18:32:22 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@123.21.156.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:45 nothing happens when i type AltGr+ß 18:33:36 how does one get nil to be printed as () ? 18:34:00 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-253-85.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:14 (let ((nil '())...does not work..... 18:34:24 it says it's a constant 18:35:33 yes.... 18:35:46 nil is a constant variable.. 18:36:25 oh man, scheme has not defined it, in cl it's a constant....... 18:36:31 bleh 18:37:02 depends on which scheme you are talking about. 18:37:10 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@59.35.103.10] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 18:37:13 some.... 18:37:32 but defining it is easy in scheme, but altering it in cl is impossible ? 18:37:34 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.103.10] has joined #lisp 18:38:02 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:16 unless you want to break stuff, yes. 18:38:45 any other way to go abou tit ? 18:38:57 what do you want to do? 18:39:20 replace it with it's paren representation () in some contexts.... 18:39:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:38 why? it is exactly the same as () (more or less) 18:40:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:40:43 i wished there was a nil :as-paren thing..... 18:41:19 Erm... 18:41:39 What's so bad about nil? 18:41:54 trying to figure that out .. hence my interegation :) 18:42:10 wbooze: I think you can tell the printer to print it as (), but I'm not sure 18:43:01 oh 18:43:28 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 18:43:35 H4ns, have a problem with clisp.. 18:44:29 blbef: that seems a bit broad 18:44:47 wbooze: s(et-pprint-dispatch 'null ) ought to do it if there isn't a more specific way 18:45:16 ah ok, thank you jasom 18:45:47 madnificent, i cant write the letter "\" in clisp under windows but i have to "The trailing \ is important; dont leave that off." 18:46:29 blbef: you can't write \ ? 18:46:47 seems to be quite silly. 18:47:07 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:47:30 madnificent, yes it is, i cant write backslash 18:48:17 blbef: can you copy-paste the \ ? 18:48:49 blbef: you only need it whilst installing slime, so... 18:49:09 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:13 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:50:42 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.195] has joined #lisp 18:50:56 madnificent, no i have letter soup, strange 18:51:28 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 18:52:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 clisp crashed 18:54:06 clisp doesnt like backslash under windows 18:54:22 heads up! 18:55:10 there are others! 18:55:12 lol 18:55:14 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:55:34 I don't get it 18:56:35 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-40-38-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:18 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:23 How is it impossible to type in a backslash? 18:57:33 is there an "easy" and "working" way to install lisp under windows? 18:57:36 i dont know 18:57:51 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:15 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-149.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:31 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-144.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:52 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:14 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 19:01:22 i have to say that i have a thinkpad notebook keyboard i think there are more layers but i dont know 19:01:39 anybody knows what to do? 19:02:10 All i did was download clisp and install it 19:02:57 yes and i followed the instructions here -> http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 19:03:15 blbef, maybe try allegro, lw, a priced lisp? 19:03:26 as befits that platform 19:03:59 you could try downloading CCL. 19:04:08 supposedly works well on windows. 19:04:20 bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 19:04:31 old allegro used to be free, dunno about now 19:04:46 s/old/down level/ 19:05:03 it was never free, and it's still not! 19:05:04 blbef I have found that Clozure CL (CCL) works well on windows 19:05:30 prolly one mark release back still is 19:05:32 urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-145.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:34 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:36 only some component was free or so..... 19:05:40 benny [~user@i577A12E8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:47 bare bones..... 19:06:13 full flesh is always costly.... 19:06:31 yeah well then you apparently are of the mindset that if the product isn't completely free it isn't in part 19:07:26 if it isn't compl. free it ain't 19:07:49 that's what's called a splitting 19:07:55 if it is partly free it is partly so.... 19:08:17 wth did i say ? 19:08:55 tell you what you say? I dunno wbooze. 19:09:25 splittist is that you ?! lol 19:10:28 and i too didn't say it should be free in any way either..... 19:12:05 windows is becoming practically a deprecated env for developers, there's a bias to Apple as the commercial platform these days 19:12:42 even though it's retail desktop share doesn't match that developer slant 19:13:29 jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-40-38-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 19:13:43 RenJuan: I think OSX got a lot of developers that had linux workstations but couldn't get linux running well on laptops 19:13:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:03 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:15:44 blbef: unless someone else comes up with something smarter, get going with clozure cl instead of clisp. i know, it's unfair that it takes this long, but you'll get it going! 19:17:42 ikki [~ikki@189.247.91.132] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:19:17 madnificent, just to make it clear, what are the main advantages from clozure cl compared to lisp in a box? 19:19:40 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:45 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-zzuqwbcxivrneuml] has joined #lisp 19:20:23 is lisp-in-a-box even maintained anymore? 19:20:50 now that we have quicklisp and slime-emacs-helper, it doesn't matter so much 19:21:54 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:22:19 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:57 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:01 sykopomp: well; there is getting started on windows (still hard) and I think there are a couple lisp boxes based off of quicklisp 19:23:21 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:23:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:24:31 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.183] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:25:58 AeroNotix [~xeno@cgn11.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:26:33 blbef: clozure only replaces clisp 19:26:53 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.53.18] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:26:57 blbef: and i'll use the abbreviation CCL for clozure common lisp towards you from now :) 19:27:55 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:28:57 blbef: 3 parts here: emacs (editor/ide) slime (plugin for emacs to talk to common lisp) and a common-lisp implementation itself (sbcl/ccl/clisp); A "lisp in a box" is a prepackeged delivery of all three 19:30:02 jasom, and why not use "lisp in a box"? 19:30:31 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:33:54 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-40-38-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:34:43 blbef: it will be harder to get help 19:35:36 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:37:07 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:39 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.163.5] has joined #lisp 19:41:45 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:46 blef: if you want : slimv , swank , a lisp implementation et voilą! :) 19:43:16 vim (editor/ide) slimv (plugin for vim) and a common lisp implementation (abcl,ecl,...) 19:43:26 copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has joined #lisp 19:46:09 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:46:53 jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-59-206-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 19:47:35 ISF [~ivan@201.82.139.24] has joined #lisp 19:47:45 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:06 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:51 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 19:50:06 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:56 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13EF40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:30 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:32 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-59-206-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:54 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:52:44 vlion [~vlion@66-87-70-62.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:51 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:11 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:54:36 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:09 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has joined #lisp 20:03:50 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:10 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:48 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:09:40 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:12:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:04 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:04 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-178-39-146-39.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:15:54 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-125-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:01 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:17:36 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:51 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-zzuqwbcxivrneuml] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:28 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-70-62.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:23:26 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 20:25:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:16 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-125-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:30:30 sellout42 [~Adium@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:37 anyone got some cute lisp snippet to render maps from hunchentoot? 20:32:01 ams: maps? 20:32:44 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 20:33:04 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:53 ams: it should be relatively easy to get something done with FORMAT and Google Maps' static API 20:34:10 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 20:37:39 also, the top hit on google seems to help http://www.franz.com/support/tech_corner/google-maps-121007.lhtml 20:40:41 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 20:41:13 francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has joined #lisp 20:41:46 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:49 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:42:43 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.83] has joined #lisp 20:43:07 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:39 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 20:45:16 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:46:06 mm... would prefer not to use google 20:46:26 they spy on people 20:46:35 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 20:47:15 -!- copec [~copec@64.244.102.140] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 20:49:30 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:49:54 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 20:51:08 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.163.5] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 20:51:51 srsly? 20:52:02 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:53:03 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-35-219.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:06 what? 20:53:07 RenJuan: can't say i fully blame him. there are good alternatives (like duckduckgo), but that didn't give me the result as a top hit. if you can't reach your destination by motorized transportation, perhaps you just have to walk a mile by foot :) 20:53:35 s/by foot// 20:54:47 *RenJuan* is just in snit over "snippet". 20:55:42 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:50 i don't understand you 20:57:15 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:57:40 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 20:58:49 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-209-170.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:26 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-61.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:01:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-216-42.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:28 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-160.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:36 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.139.24] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:23 ISF [~ivan@201.82.139.24] has joined #lisp 21:05:55 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.54] has joined #lisp 21:07:50 ams: *everyone* spies 21:08:16 unless you pay directly for the data 21:08:51 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:02 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: exit(EXIT_FAILURE);] 21:13:28 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:16 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:14:19 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:33 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-35-219.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:29 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-35-219.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:04 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:26 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:18:45 p_l: you didn't send me an email yet about what you want to do with lisp and excel 21:22:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:22:25 francogrex: The other guy went missing for a moment, then I spent last two days without internet 21:22:40 I'll send you an email as soon as I get more details out 21:22:44 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-38-7.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:24:44 ok no problem whenever is possible 21:25:44 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:26:51 francogrex: 21:30:58 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:28 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:14 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:23 francogr` [~user@109.130.7.251] has joined #lisp 21:32:46 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:00 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 21:33:07 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:33:14 -!- francogr` is now known as francogrex 21:33:53 Hi, someone messgaed me but i was disconnected, can you please repeat the question? 21:34:11 francogrex: it was Daisy, but it seems empty query :) 21:34:37 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:04 1Is it hard writing scripts to import data into excel file? 21:35:09 text data 21:35:44 Daisy: not at all, I use a library called winole, it does everything needed 21:36:26 at least I used to use, nowadays I don't use MS excel 21:36:35 francogrex: windows only? 21:36:46 Would it be hard for someone to learn - someone with no prior knowledge in programming? 21:37:10 madnificent: I think OSX Excel *might* support AppleScript 21:37:22 Daisy: hmm... hard to tell 21:37:23 madnificent: yes windows only 21:37:24 p_l: i'm thinking linux 21:37:31 francogrex: ok, thanks 21:37:44 madnificent: well, you can use it under wine with your lisp also running under wine 21:37:49 is there excel on linux? or is it the open office equivalent 21:37:52 francogrex: btw, i think you should be able to get the last excel formats through open libraries. 21:38:08 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-023-149.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:38:13 madnificent: we were talking about closer integration than file access 21:38:16 francogrex: apache has a project for getting data out of microsoft formats iirc 21:38:54 I did Excel data output with Excel 2003 without touching anything icky (in fact, the format was easier to work with than xslx) 21:39:05 p_l: ah, that's not what i'm interested in for now :) (the closer interaction) 21:39:30 p_l: that's good to know. i assume it's not public? 21:39:36 madnificent: seems interesting. What I'd like to do is be able to do that. winole does it through the API interface 21:39:45 my code? nope, not public, but it was goddamn simple 21:40:14 I got a sample of "Excel 2003 XML" version of the file I was supposed to mimic, then used that as basis for my code 21:40:22 *francogrex* also interested in integrating lisp with pdf file format for writing and reading 21:40:36 p_l: that's a great pointer. thanks! 21:41:00 francogrex: cl-pdf seems well capable there, although it might miss some newest stuff (and well, it probably doesn't include any kind of validation profiles etc. 21:41:03 ) 21:41:06 Daisy: yes uou'll need at least to know a bit of lisp 21:41:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-142.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:35 madnificent: 2003 XML was simple XML file, the .xslx is a zip file with XML data and attachments 21:41:46 p_l: yes I was just thinking of cl-pdf 21:43:30 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-076-047.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:43:31 and afaik, the Office 2003 XML formats were kinda targeted towards paperless office and automated processing - there was (still is?) interesting stuff like Intelligent Tags, which could be extended with your own ones, which would map to your own tags in XML data, and you could use Office Plugins to add things like special rendering/input for them in document 21:44:51 great pastebin is dead! 21:45:10 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:45:36 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-35-219.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:42 still dead since like a week 21:47:14 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:44 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:49:08 here: http://pastebin.com/4itQVdSM 21:49:19 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:50:12 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-021-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:55 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 21:51:15 works for me. 21:52:19 ams: what? 21:53:52 heh ... just read over the backtrace and was glad I was not here for the past 13 hours or so, because I would have likely insulted a few users :) 21:53:55 link ... works for me. 21:54:51 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:07 yes I was talking about paste.lisp.org 21:55:37 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:38 drewc: being friendly generally doesn't hurt 21:56:06 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:06 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:08 madnificent: yeah, though, I personally am glad when some people don't care about being friends and answer my questions with the proper answer ... so being friendly can hurt ... 21:58:13 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:58:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:58:43 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:14 and I may be crazy, but I miss the old days of #lisp where we would /kick someone for not using google and asking us for things that we should not be asked for... things have changed :) 21:59:22 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:59:42 francogrex: looking in to lisppaste now, how long has it been down for? 21:59:43 smug lispers, not smug enough for drewc anymore :( 22:00:26 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:00:26 drewc: I tried it yesterday and the day before (around this time of the day) it was dow. 22:00:36 down 22:00:48 (and btw, paste-lisp.org is hosted on the same box as cl-net, and I own it. My public email addy is me@drewc.ca, so if things need done, that is the place to contact) 22:00:57 drewc: i'm affraid that may have kept a lot of people away from lisp. which ultimately is bad for the library ecosystem. i do grasp what you're saying and there's something to be said for it. perhaps something in the likes of #lisp-pro would be suited for that? 22:01:00 paste.lisp* 22:01:41 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:50 oh, heh ... maybe keep people away from Lisp so they do not produce bad libraries that I will insult? ;) 22:02:31 -!- baaked [~baaked@99-91-160-174.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:02:34 and, is there not already a #lispcafe or something that was meant to be for non-lisp developers asking silly questions? 22:02:38 drewc: those people may become better hackers and produce good libraries after you've invested some time in their learning. that's what i was assuming to be trivial 22:02:54 ok I read on cll that a lisp Dan W. (spelling?) died. is this the same Dan you set up #lisp ? 22:02:58 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:45 #lispcafe is unfortunately empty or with few users most of the time 22:03:56 drewc: it doesn't work that way. you can't expect people that don't know what channel to join, not to join the most obvious one. which is #lisp, as is the same with ruby, python, javascript, ... you can, however, make something separate for non-idiotic questions. #webos has #webos-internals, which is roughly only for hackers, so they don't get questions like "how do i start my phone" 22:04:17 madnificent: yeah, or ... I can wait, and let someone else invest their time, because a new library is, at this point, not worth very much of my time. 22:05:00 then again, I do not care about people learning lisp _from me_ at all over IRC, so what do I know 22:05:18 drewc: and what if some of them would grow out to become sbcl hackers? do you expect to do all that yourself too? 22:05:31 sorry, what are you asking? 22:06:19 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@cgn11.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:06:33 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 22:07:36 it was a last effort to convince you that an ecosystem is more than very short-term tiny things. i was trying to point out the need for hackers in the same language as the language you're hacking in. i'm not going further in the argument though. 22:08:02 drewc: can you teach me lisp? can you? can you? can you? 22:08:36 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 22:09:39 drewc: We have grown a few barnacles of persistent ignorance 22:09:40 ams: sure .. $100k for a years of teaching, and you will have learned and I will make some cash. 22:10:13 drewc: oh! that is cheap! but could you tell me where my car is? 22:11:02 Xach: ah, true true 22:11:06 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:11:12 drewc: I think comp.lang.lisp kept a lot of people away from lisp 22:11:31 madnificent: You have valid points 22:11:36 Sometimes I wonder what percentage of the issue is the foreign language barrier. 22:12:13 Then I read the code. 22:12:24 but now we have cool things such as quicklisp! and lisp will be a huge success! 22:12:30 mstevens: why? 22:12:56 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:00 hehehe 22:13:02 why do you think that comp.lang.lisp kept a lot of people away from lisp? 22:13:21 francogrex: lots of morons, some smart, some not so... 22:13:47 francogrex: it has long had a reputation has having an absolutely toxic culture 22:14:09 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:14:11 -!- christoph_debian [~user@2001:a60:f01c:0:42::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:12 mstevens: you almost always get the good help and support there 22:14:54 I think forums are better for help that irc channels? you want toxic culture fo to ##c and see there 22:15:02 I think there was a classic bad example of some newbie being given code that would delete his hard drive, or whatever. 22:15:24 mstevens: urban legend. cll is a very good place 22:16:00 francogrex: i think we must be talking about different cll's or different centuries.. 22:16:17 cll was really a pot of flames for a long long long time 22:16:39 ams: you need to filter out spams etc 22:16:43 And also a source of good information. 22:16:46 as with every newsgroup 22:16:52 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 22:17:18 francogrex: which was basically all traffic... but as xach mentions, it is also a real gold mine 22:17:22 It is an open forum, and the value is proportional to the ability to select discussions to follow and participate in. 22:17:34 It's not as good as it was, though. 22:17:49 cll has taught many people 22:18:03 nod .. guess the old lispers got tired of flaming or something and write code now .. hehehe 22:19:15 Xach: that seems to be very true, not as good as it used to be. Then again, I have only been a lisper for 8 years or so, so what do I know about c.l.l beyond the last 8 years. 22:19:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:20:13 was really nice place in the 90's... 22:20:15 I still like to read it every day and help when I can. 22:20:26 and #lisp for that matter... no idea what it was like here in 2003 at all. 22:20:43 I read it every day as well 22:21:06 C-x b *Group* 22:21:12 are there news servers that still work? 22:21:30 There are many options. I use news.individual.net. 22:21:47 does it have archives of old stuff? 22:21:53 it's a shame Kenny doesn't frequent #lisp 22:22:00 (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.eternal-september.org")) 22:22:24 ams: It goes back a few years. 22:22:42 I'd quite like a lisp mailing list. Maybe I should make one and start evangelising 22:22:45 ams: there is a comprehensive archive of comp.lang.lisp dumped from google available. 22:22:53 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:33 mstevens: what list do you want ,and it is not covered by one in : http://lists.common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo ? 22:23:40 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:24:12 i think he wants common-lisp-discuss or something 22:24:45 ams: basically 22:24:59 ams: or maybe clnoobs-discuss 22:25:17 so, you want a mailing list where newbies post questions that newbies answer? 22:25:32 there si one like that I think already 22:25:35 is 22:25:48 http://lists.common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/common-lisp-beginner-devel 22:25:49 :-) 22:25:49 all newbies 22:26:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:28 http://www.lispforum.com was it? 22:26:30 and, do newbies not normally use http://www.lispforum.com for questions? 22:26:40 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:08 I think Stack Overlfow suffices. 22:27:16 Overflow* 22:27:31 yes also stack 22:28:01 drewc: going back a step I wanted a convenient feed of simple CL discussion for educational and entertainment purposes 22:28:37 mstevens: and the existing feeds to not qualify as "simple CL 22:28:37 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:40 discussion for educational and entertainment purposes " 22:28:43 ? 22:29:00 mstevens: really you should check out http://www.lispforum.com 22:29:09 i miss naggum :( 22:29:34 drewc: well I actually quite like a bit of planet.lisp 22:29:41 and the question is, is that because of the lack of feeds or the lack of newbies, or the lack of entertainment? 22:30:22 i miss pitman more 22:30:28 ams: read through http://xach.com/naggum/articles/ 22:30:28 sorry, planet.lisp has a forum and or mailing list, or are we now talking about the RSS ? 22:30:38 There will be a pitman archive sometime. 22:30:54 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:55 and a warnock 22:31:01 Xach: Did pitman leave in a huff? 22:31:19 moore33: no. 22:31:19 ams: eternal-september worked quite well last time I tried it 22:31:20 drewc: well it's a fairly convenient format and updates slowly so I just visit the website occasionally 22:31:39 Xach: That's good, I suppose. 22:31:55 moore33: he does not post much any more but i don't think there was any particular departure event 22:31:58 yeah, planet.lisp is my home page in chromium. 22:32:07 *moore33* nods 22:32:48 in general though I don't like forums because it's a pain having to go check them 22:32:49 Did the post about symbol conflicts inform? 22:32:56 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.207.165] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:33:10 I was kind of hoping for more reaction, but maybe it's a topic by which only I am excited. 22:33:26 *Xach* has so much more to write on the topic, lucky him! 22:34:06 Xach: it didn't seem like much 'new' to me. but it was a good and clear recap 22:34:09 I was informed. 22:34:17 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-35-219.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:17 Xach: i liked it 22:34:33 -!- bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:35:08 Xach: I think it didn't cover the scenario that causes me problems very clearly, but I don't necessarily understand said scenario properly in the first place 22:35:25 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:55 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81.200.28.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:59 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 mstevens: Which one causes you problems the most? 22:36:26 Xach: where you forget to import something, and the symbol gets interned in the wrong place before it fails, then when you fix the import there's a conflict. *may not make proper sense but that's my current understanding 22:36:38 it did not inform me, but that is because I could have written it... right now, they way I am coding lisp, every file has its own package, and conflicts do occur at least twic ea day because of that... great article though, btw! I still read the whole thing. 22:36:59 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81.200.28.83] has joined #lisp 22:37:05 bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 22:37:17 mstevens: ah, where you don't qualify the symbol in a runtime call to CL:IMPORT? 22:37:34 *Xach* almost exclusively uses defpackage forms to manage package structure 22:37:44 (defpackage :drewc.org/ips/monad/continuation (:use :cl :drewc.org/ips/monad) (:export #:)) 22:37:45 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:25 me as well, on defpackage and in-package really. 22:39:10 *drewc* is looking for another use of packages in his code ... 22:39:27 cannot find anything. so yeah. 22:40:02 where did this idea to have one package per file come from? 22:40:08 Xach: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html I'm thinking of the bit under "package gotchas" here 22:41:20 Xach: nah, can't read it... to sad 22:41:38 schaueho: well, it really comes from the loader/builder that I use .. :drewc.org/ips/monad/continuation is stored in ~/drewc.org/src/ips/monad/continuation.lisp 22:41:54 ams: "can't read it"? how so? 22:42:51 christoph_debian [~user@2001:a60:f01c:0:42::1] has joined #lisp 22:42:54 mstevens: ah. i get so paranoid if an arglist doesn't pop up that that specific case rarely happens for me. 22:43:09 and, so, if a packages requires , say, drewc.org/ips/monad package to import from, it knows to load that file before it loads the file that uses the package. 22:43:15 Xach: exactly what happens to me 22:43:48 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:00 I was wondering 'cause of the article of Patrick Stein (on p.l.o) that also mentioned that approach 22:44:34 having each file as its own package has helped quite a bit for organisation and of course adding/removing features/files 22:45:16 i like that they're disconnected (files and packages), but i most often use one file per package too. i sometimes diverge though 22:45:21 mm... 22:45:32 schaueho: can you paste me the href for that article? sounds fun to me. 22:46:13 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: good bye] 22:46:38 i always have one file per package .. 22:47:16 madnificent: I like that they are disconnected as well, because, for example, my commercial apps are binary via image, and there is not source files included with it ;) 22:47:45 http://nklein.com/2012/10/coders-asceticism/ 22:48:06 a puppy dies everytime you create a file. 22:48:11 drewc: haha. i meant for code too 22:48:27 ams: why does that belong here? 22:48:52 well, at least i get to do /ignore for that! 22:49:03 *** Now ignoring ams 22:49:06 w00t 22:49:10 :-) 22:50:30 mstevens: Thanks for pointing that out, I don't think I covered it well at all. It just didn't occur to me when writing. 22:50:36 i think drewc has a crush on me 22:50:58 schaueho: eech good god, that is horrible .. 22:50:59 Xach: that could be a lisptip! 22:51:26 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:37 schaueho: i'd have one signle file for all of unet; maybe some other smaller libraries if they are useful for other stuff .. 22:51:44 Xach: 'that' being "look at the method signature you are given, if you don't get them, you probably didn't load the package" 22:51:50 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.207.165] has joined #lisp 22:51:53 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:44 but not more .. 22:53:14 well, I typically have at least one more file, containing the tests 22:53:16 ... if any 22:53:28 schaueho: interesting article indeed! 22:53:34 mm... i wouldn't. but that is me. 22:54:01 i want tests and implementation near each other 22:54:27 my tests are in their own package, because the test.lisp file also tests the impot/export things and breaks immedialty if/when I move things around 22:55:10 then it makes sense. 22:55:36 hadn't thought of testing the imports/exports yet, nice idea 22:55:39 i just ask "why do i want to do this?" .. if i don't have a good reason, then i don't. :-) 22:55:51 if anyone's feeling like blogging, I'd recommend something on setting up a simple package with asdf and some tests, because it took me ages to work out 22:56:10 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:56:19 mstevens: quickbuild? 22:56:27 mstevens: quickproject? 22:56:29 quickapp .. quickbuild? erm, what is it called.. 22:56:35 ah! 22:56:46 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:53 ams: maybe that's the answer I didn't know! 22:56:54 i'd say stay the heck away from asdf ... asdf is an evil upon cl 22:56:56 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:57:04 jasom: doesn't include tests 22:57:04 *drewc* does not use asdf at all for his local software, because of the one package per file thingie, asdf is not needed as such. 22:57:14 aye, exactly. 22:57:31 *jasom* uses asdf exclusively for local software b/c it handles dependencies 22:57:51 jasom: so does defpackage 22:58:32 ams: how do you get (ql:quickload :my-project) to load all dependencies, plus your project without using asdf? 22:58:48 dependencies? you mean you have to add :the-system-name to :depends-on ... right? so handling deps is adding the thing to a file .. 23:00:38 so, my load-system.lisp (which is --load'ed) has (load (compile-file "quick-build")) 23:00:50 (ql:quickload "hunchentoot") 23:00:57 yup. 23:01:13 (quick-build:load-packages-and-dependencies 23:01:14 '(:drewc.org/ips/test/ips)) 23:01:17 or (require '..) or even parse defpackeg stuff for :use and then do ql:quickload or whatever 23:01:40 or I can use asdf and not have to write any code myself 23:01:58 yup, you can go ahead and do so. 23:01:59 and live with the horrible headaches that asdf is. 23:02:26 just thinking some more on the test/package stuff 23:02:51 hell, I used asdf for my local project until roughly feb 2012, so what do I know about it? :) 23:03:08 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 23:03:15 if you have the tests in a separate package, do you test only the public external api but also the internal one? 23:03:58 what internal one? 23:04:00 my taste would say that as an external package you should only touch on what you get to see 23:04:01 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 23:04:20 well, stuff that the package doesn't export 23:04:22 http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 23:04:26 found that kinda interesting 23:04:55 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:05:10 oldie but goldie 23:05:31 *jasom* will continue to use asdf until he runs into said headaches. So far it's worked fine 23:05:53 jasom: headache #0: adding/removing/updating files/direcctories 23:05:54 :-) 23:06:06 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:06:20 ams: which is completely trivial? 23:06:20 the stuff that a package does not export in completely irrevelvant, because it is only used in that package to implement the exported things 23:06:29 is* 23:06:37 nod 23:06:51 tests should be used for reproducing bugs, and basic functionality. 23:07:02 drewc: but assuming you want to test parts of the implementation, you may have tests for those. It depends on your testing philosophy. 23:07:05 so, there is no need to test things that could change the next second. 23:07:19 jasom: why do you want to do that? 23:07:46 I am really confused about why internal things need to be tested for the implementation to be tested. 23:07:53 testing external stuff makes sense, you want to reproduce bugs, see that you don't break things, etc. 23:07:59 one package per file ... 23:08:00 drewc: test driven development, that stuff 23:08:03 but internal, what is the point? 23:08:27 ams: example: assume you implement an associative type as a tree. The fact it is a tree is an internal implementation detail. However, it can be useful to write some tests that insert a bunch of stuff, and then sanity check the tree structure 23:08:33 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:33 if you have an internal function that you change, all that matters is the external interface ... if that isn't broken, then .. well, who cares .. 23:08:39 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:42 test every tiny function, so you don't have to think about them 23:08:44 jasom: why? 23:08:55 And, given then I know TDD and have a scrum avery day with my other devs ... 23:08:59 jasom: if it doesn't break external interfaces, why does it matter? 23:08:59 ams: because it can trivially expose bugs that might not show up for a while in production 23:09:16 jasom: add such tests to the _external_ cases. 23:09:32 jasom: and if you can't, then your external interfaces are to complicated. 23:09:33 what does that have to do with testing the internals? There are no internals that needs testing.. one package per file... 23:09:42 ams: for one, you want to be sure that -when you encounter a bug- you can easily find where it is. if you notice your tree structure fails the tests, that's probably where to look first. 23:10:07 drewc: jasom is talking about non-exported functions. 23:10:45 ams: I agree that external testing is the most important testing, and some people way overdo it on unit tests of internal details. However, I have often seen examples of internal only testing that found hundreds of bugs that never showed up in obvious ways in external testing 23:11:31 jasom: well, lets assume we want to do that for some reason ... i'd use asserts in the code for internal stuff. 23:11:41 ah, so internal/external has to do with the way packages are currently used by most people, and not the one-package-per-file thing at all. 23:11:47 real world example: a compiler optimization that violated internal assumptions on the structures causing regressions in performance in some cases, and incorrect code gen in others. 23:11:58 ams: asserts work at runtime, you'll discover the bugs too late 23:12:00 jasom: asserts. 23:12:11 ams: asserts in code is an example of internal-only tests, right? 23:12:18 jasom: yes. 23:12:23 well coupled with external code that excercises them 23:12:26 drewc: it's indeed separated from the one-package-per-file debate. 23:12:36 (defun compiler () (assert "i expect puppies")) 23:12:43 jasom: right 23:12:44 madnificent: well, then, I recommend testing things. 23:13:05 drewc: only the external interface, or also the internals? 23:13:24 jasom: and you can enable/disable asserts depending on things, and such... 23:14:08 jasom: that is at least how i'd do this .. and do all the time, i don't write tests though 23:14:43 ams: I guess it's a question of style between asserting for puppies everywhere in your code and writing tests that do *stuff* and then check for puppies themselves. Particularly when checking for puppies is expensive so the assertions will be disabled during production 23:14:47 ams: so you're effectively pushing your opinion on something you don't actually do? 23:15:21 jasom: no, assertions are in no way an alternative to tests. 23:15:37 madnificent: it depends. if you expose you internals to other things, then they are not internals at all but an API .. .so test everything that is used. 23:15:52 jasom: well, you don't run tests on a production machine. 23:15:59 jasom: the assertions will tell your client that the application isn't working correctly. tests tell the developer the application isn't working properly. that's a completely different thing. they are not interchangeable 23:16:10 if, otoh, the internals are really internal, then they do not need testing. 23:16:14 jasom: so right now you are changing the problem spec :-) 23:16:44 < ams> jasom: and you can enable/disable asserts depending on things, and such... 23:16:45 drewc: i believe it's a grey area. if some internal thing becomes complex, it may be internal, but it could be wise to test it. you may find bugs sooner, rather than later. 23:16:55 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:16:57 drewc: nod, though sometimes i just check that "well, i really really expect a alist with an integer as the cdr ..." kinda stuff. 23:16:58 the connection is that with separate pkg for tests, I would assume only tests of exported stuff. 23:17:02 But, my opinion may be different then those who like re-writing tests because they changed internals. 23:17:12 madnificent: why would I ship code to a client with assertions enabled, unless it is to debug a bug that has reached the field? 23:17:27 jasom: the client might want them there 23:17:33 madnificent: you and I have different ideas about internal vs external it seems. 23:17:48 jasom: because you'll tell the client that the application has done something wrong *before* generating and storing random crap. it's better to fail, than to produce erroneous results. 23:17:48 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:50 that is, the code might be more concerned about running correctly than speed 23:17:57 nod, or you might have an assert that is really expensive, and don't want to run it all the frigging time... so you disable it. 23:18:07 drewc: or you're being more practical about it. 23:18:21 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:27 kinda like using declaim ... 23:18:46 ams: you mean declare? 23:18:49 madnificent: I use assertions for things that should always be true, assuming no bugs or unexpected hardware error. 23:19:11 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:19:12 "this assert is only valid if debug is > 3 ... " whatever. 23:19:32 *madnificent* doesn't have good practice on either tests, nor assertions. is still seeking a way that makes him happy. 23:19:39 the problem is if somebody changes some internals and fails to understand the implications of other internal functions 23:19:43 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:19:51 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d0024e6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:20:00 internal tests also often serve as a replacement of code level documentation 23:20:00 schaueho: right, so use assert. 23:20:17 Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:21:02 *jasom* seems to be roughly on the same page as ams about internal tests 23:21:19 jasom: he doesn't do any tests... 23:21:23 bitonic [~user@host86-138-97-15.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:28 I just consider a selectively enabled assert, coupled with tests driving the external interface to be an internal test 23:21:42 nod 23:22:26 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:22:45 madnificent: I still don't understand your assertion that (def (foo) (assert puppies) ... (assert puppies)) coupled with external tests for (foo) is less of a test than (somepackage::check-for-puppies) (foo) (somepackage::check-for-puppies) 23:22:46 testing for internal consistency is what assert is designed for .. 23:22:54 kinda the whole point of assert 23:23:36 and tests as such, i consider them as bug databases. 23:23:41 jasom: the tests you write for a particular function tests the boundaries of that function. you think about the edge-cases and test them. for complex things, that's simply different. unless you can assume you write all-covering tests for your external interfaces (but that's unlikely for any sort of complex problem) 23:24:21 every reported bug must have a test case. 23:25:42 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:25:44 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:20 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 23:26:24 ams: but testing should come so you *don't* have bugs. once you have a bug, it's too late. 23:27:03 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:27:14 madnificent: It is sometimes easier to get a corner case with an internal test, and in those cases I use one. Most of the time it is harder to write a complete set of unit tests than it is to write the code correctly. Yes, good unit tests can allow for changing the code more easily, but YAGNI 23:27:40 jasom: which is why is-right was born 23:28:13 madnificent: is-right? 23:28:38 jasom: http://github.com/madnificent/is-right 23:29:04 jasom: it was a test to generate tests from the repl. you execute something, then say "yup, that's the expected outcome" and then tell is-right to write a test from that. 23:29:16 that way it takes up less time 23:29:29 madnificent: I didn't say it takes more time, I said it's harder 23:29:58 It is usually harder to write a good set of tests than it is to get the implementation right. Sometimes several orders of magnitude harder 23:29:59 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 23:30:07 if you don't want to think, i doubt programming is the best profession for you 23:30:11 nod 23:30:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.91.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:31 madnificent: it's a spectrum, on one hand you have super-low feature rate with near bug free code. On the other hand you have lots of features that only sort of work. Most software calls for something in the middle 23:31:38 madnificent, is-right.org goes to a blank site ... intentionally? 23:31:59 schaueho: it's the file in the repository. you should probably open it in emacs with org-mode to read it correctly. 23:32:04 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.7.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:21 If you are writing code for the ECU of a jet-engine, move left. If you are writing code for a website that shows cat pictures, move right. 23:32:24 schaueho: github doesn't render it correctly (and yes, that's my problem and i should've fixed it, but no, i haven't done so) 23:32:29 stupid me 23:32:38 schaueho: not at all, you're not the first 23:32:50 I'm using org-mode all day 23:32:59 should have recognized it right away 23:33:11 jasom: you said you weren't talking about time, but talking about thinking. if it's just as fast to write the code correctly and well tested, you should probably do so. 23:33:47 *ams* writes teleco stuff. 23:33:48 madnificent: automating away the parts where you aren't thinking is good. But I am proposing that the amount of time thinking of test-cases is significant 23:34:04 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:14 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-40-79-35.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:34:40 jasom: then you've changed your stance. but then i do agree. it takes time and you need to see where you want to spend it on. and is-right lowers the time to test certain pieces, so that's where it's appropriately used. and as such, tests can potentially make more sense. 23:35:08 madnificent: I wasn't clear on the time/effort comment I agree 23:35:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:44 we like tests ... lots of tests.. the more the better! 23:36:57 Some people assert that unit tests let you write better code. I don't think they make code you write work better, but they can make the code you write more malleable (when done right, which is harder than writing the code in the first place). Depending on how much time you are going to spend changing the code in the future it may or may not payoff. Predictions are hard, especially about the future. 23:36:59 10000000 tests passed!!! 100% tests OK!!! 23:37:40 nod 23:37:50 tests are great for standards and such .. 23:37:50 jasom: it saves the same purpose as writing a contract for your functions. if you have the need for correct code, it helps. 23:37:54 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-076-047.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:21 imho, every standard should have a test suite with it. 23:38:38 ams: teleco (in the US at least) has historically been very conservative on the features/stability spectrum. And not just getting through, but with quality and latency requirements. 23:38:47 hence the resistance to packet switched networks 23:38:54 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-145.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:38:57 jasom: ah, i'm in europe. 23:38:59 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:00 and contracts and stuff baked into ATM 23:39:12 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-076-047.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:39:24 (i like tests btw) 23:39:40 ikki [~ikki@189.199.210.156] has joined #lisp 23:39:45 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: dobranoc/good night] 23:41:08 arrsim` [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:42:30 Artheist [~quassel@cac94-2-82-66-238-128.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:11 madnificent: and asserting preconditions and postconditions doesn't serve the same purpose as writing a contract for your functions? 23:43:42 spiderweb [~lcc@gateway/tor-sasl/lcc] has joined #lisp 23:43:45 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.189.206.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:50 -!- Artheist [~quassel@cac94-2-82-66-238-128.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:56 jasom: it depends on what you assert ;) 23:44:00 Artheist [~quassel@cac94-2-82-66-238-128.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:02 formal assertions can be hard 23:44:05 (or impossible) 23:44:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-076-047.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:44:33 Daisy [Eile@95.209.63.51.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 23:44:45 and messing up the code with lots of stuff which is only implementation relevant and not expected to happen at runtime 23:45:10 -!- adx [~adx@pool-108-28-109-140.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:45:17 the entire body of a function is only implementation relevant 23:45:28 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:45:31 since it's the implementation 23:46:37 do you really want to add asserts in a function where some part/subcall is intended to have caused a side-effect? 23:46:41 I don't 23:47:28 schaueho: you assert those inside the subcall, right? 23:48:00 not if it's the parent function that relies on the side-effect 23:48:22 schaueho: the subcall causes the side effect, hence the assert in the subcall, not the calee. 23:48:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:44 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:11 schaueho: we are comparing it to writing internal interface tests. In the case of that, you would be testing the function that is the subcall, not the function that calls it, so the parallel is putting the asserts inside the subcall. 23:50:03 the library quid-pro-quo (of sellout) is applicable to this discussion 23:50:09 kmels [~kmels@p5B13EF40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:24 paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:52:18 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:54:23 (defmacro test (&rest args) `(assert ,@args)) <--- I have that defined by a #+, and depending on what I put in *features*, the TEST may be an ASSERT, or related to FiveAM, or a simple do nothing :) 23:58:27 jasom: my goal is to write as little code as possible that doesn't add features. 23:59:19 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-209-2-227-158.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:59:38 ams: then lisp may be ill-suited for you. the code can be quite lengthy. it wins in the infrastructure department, but that's exactly where you don't add features.