00:00:19 Bike: i wasn't sure 00:00:21 ok so then you all don't think programming asm will become completely obsolete someday , ie only exist purely to program firmware? 00:00:42 Bike: sounds like something pjb would like to think about 00:00:49 yeah, probably 00:01:42 I mean my teachers have told us that unless one is AN EXPERT at asm,,,the compiler will almost always choose better instructions than what our little inline assembly we would code up 00:01:55 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:02:31 the other day I was talking about sorting with someone and she gave me some macroassembler to sort some floats with x64 instructions, branchless 00:02:41 and then I tried it with gcc and got some hilariously bad by comparison output. 00:02:46 sorting branchless? 00:02:59 paultreselli: unless compiler does something crazy that you didn't know was legal, all in the name of speed, instead of doing what you wanted 00:03:14 oh, the x64 instructions take care of the branching? 00:03:19 well, it sort of depends. looking at what gcc outputs is fascinating sometimes. for instance, the current version doesn't detect pure recursive functions, but then again I guess I wouldn't expect a C compiler to 00:03:20 paultreselli: there are cases where that is completely not true; for example vectorized instructions, though some compilers have decorations for doing that still outside of assembly 00:03:23 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 00:03:23 So I'm sure hard core asm hackers, like the vxers of the 90's that wrote all those crazy polymorphic encryption engines...ok THEY might write l337 asm code...but your avg C++ coder ,today? Cmon,,,no way 00:03:28 something like that. I'm not good with assembly myself. 00:03:53 paultreselli: assembly is good when you need *explicit* stuff 00:03:55 paultreselli: yes, if you're not good at programming in assembly you won't be good at programming in assembly. 00:04:15 also, don't confuse today's brain-dead assemblers with proper macro assembler :) 00:04:20 paultreselli becoming good at programming in assembly is not reserved to the vxers of the 90's, really. 00:04:53 paultreselli: also there are cases where the compiler generates obviously bad code; sometimes its faster to just write it in assembly than to figure out how to wrestle the compiler to your will 00:05:08 -!- Ralt_ is now known as Ralt 00:05:23 I didn't remember the ghost command. 00:05:27 ok ty all for your retorts,,well stated 00:05:52 I admire asm hackers,,,they KNOW REAL programming 00:05:59 witness, bards. the day #lisp defended assembly programming 00:06:32 Bike: I think it's less surprising than seeing C channel defend assembly 00:06:56 yes, but it amuses me nonetheless. 00:06:58 all thanks to DISASSEMBLE command, and at least some of us reading the output to understand what we just wrote :) 00:07:08 s/command/function/ 00:07:21 yeah, I noticed how all in here linked arms to protect the dear old NOP 00:07:23 I actually first learned about homoiconicity from assembly. Lisp seemed good from there 00:07:24 haha 00:08:28 hm 00:08:43 how can I use DISASSEMBLE to look at generated code for compiled lisp? 00:08:49 literally, what's the command to type? :-) 00:08:58 (disassemble #'disassemble) 00:09:05 -!- billitch [~billitch@bastille.ma3.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:09:29 so what do you all think about P Grahams assertion that modern langs are converging to Lispness? 00:09:40 paultreselli: too much koolaid 00:09:48 lisp simply got to some stuff first 00:10:07 it wasn't the only language to get interesting important ideas 00:10:19 wut, that's quite a lot of code generated. 00:10:42 paultreselli: well they are getting the obvious HL stuff (e.g. garbage collection) but that's not really unique to lisp 00:10:56 he actually describes a asymptotic behavior...where Fast is the mid line that both Lisp and others are converging on 00:11:39 (disassemble #'cons) is easier to read. 00:11:42 Lisp was slow and powerful...now getting fast. Python,Java,etc are fast and getting more powerful 00:12:21 python isn't fast 00:12:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:29 *SNRK* 00:12:33 Python... fast... 00:12:37 p_l: though lisp adapted to the ideas found in other languages quite well, it seems 00:12:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:42 madnificent: yes 00:13:02 lisp got the basic right (using s-expressions), that's the difference with all the other languages 00:13:10 madnificent: I'm just trying to pop the bubble of "lisp arrogance" - we aren't the only smug weenies ;) 00:13:21 yeah, it seems alot of Lisp advocates are bigots, and I feel like 'ok so Lisp the like the mack Daddy in the house...but that attitude is offputting' 00:13:32 which is what allows it to adapt to other niceness it finds 00:13:34 Ralt: actually, S-expressions are kinda an accident 00:13:47 a fortunate accident :-) 00:14:00 oh btw, defmacro is basically the same as C++ template? 00:14:02 yes, fortunate, but also apparently very, very off-putting for many people 00:14:10 Ralt: no, defmacro isn't the same as C++ template 00:14:49 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:14:50 C++ template, afaik, is like braindead incestuous cousin of minimal implemention of scheme's "syntax" macro system 00:15:45 p_l: i felt like that was somewhat the clue of why lisp 'works' it's easy to embrace new things. 00:15:46 but I think the real issue is this: Lisp,Haskell,Erlang,Scala...pretty much any "fringe" lang are isolated due to their academic nature...most VC\corp managers only see the NEON 00:16:49 What `academic nature'? 00:16:57 paultreselli: most corps want replaceable cogs, not thinking people. Managing people with very specific skills that are as diverse isn't a popular thing in management courses 00:16:57 Ralt: comparing those two is like saying "so, that brand new Rolls-Royce Phantom is much like that old Seat Marbella, right?" 00:17:18 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:25 paultreselli: good VCs are interested only in your ability to make returns 00:17:37 very good VCs build upon that 00:17:40 Ralt: they serve the same purpose, but they bring you to vastly different places in a completely different way. 00:18:00 p_l...right. and so all power of Lisp means you need smart people to weild that kind of power 00:18:52 paultreselli: no, good programming team takes people of varying skillsets to find the best ways to deal with specific problems 00:19:22 C++ and Java enable half brains to write mediocre code that when combined with huge dev teams ,can produce bloated code that works and the bugs get slowly squished over time( in theory I guess) 00:19:36 weren't you just talking about lisp advocates being bigots 00:19:53 paultreselli: not really enable... you can write UML in any language 00:20:06 I did not count myself,lol no 00:20:19 I'm not in the Union 00:21:14 ooh, i like the sound of that, the lisp union! 00:22:12 well...see and thats the thing...I dont doubt that people are all stupid if they can't learn Lisp...rather choose not to. 00:23:26 you can write FORTRAN in any language. I have no doubt that if lisp were popular you would see bloated code with huge dev teams as well 00:23:45 I mean, academics have the TIME to pursue thier fields...most programmers I know *survived* college and then got a *job* as a codemonkey sumwhere...and have no time to study Lisp, or number theory...cuz neither get or keep you a job today 00:24:24 by the way, when you say number theory, what are you talking about? i would associate wffs more with logic stuff than with numerics 00:24:33 unless you are independently wealthy or on welfare and section 8...No one has the time to study things that don't bring in the cheese...Thats the REAL world 00:24:53 the no time thing is BS; I've learned languages in my spare time while working a job and raising 3 kids. It's about priorities; I find learning languages to be fun, so I do that instead of some other recreational activities. 00:25:20 paultreselli: actually, I haven't seen much lisp in academia. Maybe at ILC. But most Lisp *use* that I have seen is strangely practical, at least on CL side 00:26:20 Bike....well all math derives from logic ...so there is a relation. Many number theory problems can be abtracted with set theory...and from set theory once can use lambda calculus and such 00:26:24 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-75-132.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:28 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:26:52 of course, but I've never seen it in number theory, really. 00:27:02 maybe that proof about circuits not being able to prove P=NP. barely. 00:27:19 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-160.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:27:31 Bike, true 00:27:39 lambda calculus is much heavier in Haskell, actually 00:27:46 not that learning logic is bad. I just don't think of that as number theory. 00:28:14 paultreselli: interesting, then, that I have time to study all manner of interesting 'academic' things, and that my doing so seems to be what gets me jobs :P 00:28:45 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-248-119.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:28:45 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 00:29:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:29:11 well there' s the finite limits of what a brain is able to tackle...this is a sad reality 00:29:33 so Time and what what can actually do in that time is variable 00:31:25 but then eureka and inspiration are another thing. I was beasting over a combinatoric problem in my Abstract algebra class once...and my sister, who is not the brightest in math...found a clever property that I overlooked...and by it I was able to apply induction and prove the problem 00:32:43 point being, I persisted and got nothing, yet she, not a math geek at all, found the "link"- thats genius. some don;t have that. If she were to truly study maths, she would eclipse me 00:33:54 *paultreselli* is away: I must get stronger 00:34:17 antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-243-95.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 00:36:51 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-064-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:38:22 thethomaseffect1 [~thethomas@109.255.215.132] has joined #lisp 00:38:27 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-142-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:01 -!- thethomaseffect [~thethomas@109.255.215.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:40:20 *paultreselli* is back (gone 00:06:26) 00:41:29 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-126.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:42:12 paultreselli: please configure your IRC client so we don't get "is back" messages. thanks! 00:42:13 paultreselli: please disable public notices like that 00:44:08 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:44:18 im sorry 00:44:29 will do 00:45:01 -!- gridaphobe` [~user@128.54.32.208] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:45:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:45:25 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:29 also mad...the solution you posted rising-list is not tail recur,right? Although what I did get is that you build the list from the back ie your consing end-1 to end each time in the call 00:47:47 paultreselli: i think it is 00:48:35 thats whre I'm confused...I thought TR demands that the last FORM thats eval'd is the recursive call 00:49:06 here we have cons that depends on recursion to finish 00:50:25 in fact , thats what I see it happening....first successive calls to self...then finally a bunch of returns 00:50:57 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:51:25 i'd trust on someone else's opinion on this, i may be wrong 00:51:33 s/opinion/insights/ 00:51:43 where's the code, again? 00:53:19 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:09 http://pastie.org/5121335 00:54:22 Ralt__ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 00:55:10 yeah, that shouldn't be tail recursive. 00:55:35 nineteen9 [~nineteen9@24.39.127.3] has joined #lisp 00:55:45 tail recurring just means reassigning the parameters and then jumping back to the top, if that wouldn't work it can't be a tail call. 00:56:02 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:56:34 ok 00:57:56 -!- xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:01:08 -!- Ralt__ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:01:13 wingy [~wingy@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:14 _nix00 [~Adium@183.129.168.250] has joined #lisp 01:01:20 i love lisp!!! 01:02:49 ^----- is this akin to a girl flashing her boobs? 01:02:59 ;) 01:03:41 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@183.129.168.250] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:02 no 01:05:10 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 01:05:26 which gives us twice as much love 01:05:42 sex code sex code .. what more can you have in life? 01:05:58 #lisp with content about lisp in it? 01:06:54 was just reacting to the comment :) 01:06:56 -!- wingy [~wingy@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 01:07:49 Enough of such garbage. 01:08:32 By the way (of #lisp lispy contents ^^)  is it possible to specify the type of members of list in typespec? 01:08:46 foreignFunction: not really 01:09:01 foreignFunction: only for short lists 01:09:17 foreignFunction: e.g. (cons number (cons number null)) 01:09:38 is a type specifier, but there is no type of "lists of numbers" 01:11:25 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:54 Uhh. So there is no way to typespecify something like (list character integer symbol list) but way of nested CONS-typespecs? 01:15:24 you could deftype that syntax (except not using the name 'list') if you want to use it a lot 01:15:55 foreignFunction: you could use a vector instead 01:17:40 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B9F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:58 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13EA42.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:19:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B3F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:22:03 madnificent: that would only be restricted to the upgraded-array-element-type of the provided element type 01:23:00 Guest52075 [~serenity@71-9-9-167.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:03 -!- Guest52075 [~serenity@71-9-9-167.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 01:25:58 -!- antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-243-95.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:28:22 kpreid: yes 01:31:37 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 01:31:57 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 01:34:57 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:36:53 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 01:40:20 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 01:42:29 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 01:50:16 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:52:21 -!- nineteen9 [~nineteen9@24.39.127.3] has quit [Quit: nineteen9] 01:54:07 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 02:00:52 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:59 -!- kanru` [~kanru@111-249-142-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:05:34 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-68-8.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:09:40 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-4-229.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:16:42 shifty` [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 -!- hilbert_ [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 02:26:26 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: pa/bye] 02:31:05 pspace [~andrew@204-195-74-206.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:28 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:32 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 02:42:12 yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:12 nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-30-29.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:50 -!- Meatball_py [~user@110-174-178-154.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 02:47:40 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:51:29 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 02:54:08 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54:31 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-40-123.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:43 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:51 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:58 ioa [~ioa@dynamic2-248-011.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 03:01:03 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:02:24 -!- benny [~user@i577A108B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:03:15 kcj_ [~casey@203-173-215-59.dialup.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:03:58 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:04:28 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:05:51 hello I know I suck but I'm just learning a bit of lisp. Here's a neat set of functions that produce some cool number patterns. What do you think? I will make this more interesting soon. http://pastie.org/5121873 03:06:06 -!- kcj_ [~casey@203-173-215-59.dialup.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:14 oh and thanks to mad.* for his rising-list...that helped 03:06:26 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:07:16 oh and thanks to Peter Seibel, the author of a fine book on Lisp! 03:07:59 "f" and "g" are kind of... nondescriptive, would be my first thought 03:08:27 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 03:09:02 ok...how is my indentation now? 03:10:59 I followed general format of \n after function param list then keeping body alligned , further indenting for every new form 03:11:05 What editor are you using? 03:11:10 emacs 03:11:14 of coz ;) 03:11:24 it should be indenting for you... 03:11:36 it does, sorta 03:13:08 yes it does fine job, but sometimes I 'edit'...prolly not good habit 03:13:16 anyway, I 03:13:47 am tired...Lisp is not for people with bad eyes or epilepsy 03:14:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:16 -!- paultreselli [~paul@ool-4570efac.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: paultreselli] 03:15:30 -!- pspace [~andrew@204-195-74-206.wavecable.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:18:23 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:25:37 cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-224-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:32:38 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:40 yena_ [~yena@akasha.ayai.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:15 -!- yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:36:15 -!- yena_ is now known as yena 03:47:15 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 03:53:27 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:52 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:58:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:59:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:03 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 -!- ioa [~ioa@dynamic2-248-011.usc.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:37 Oh, and paste.lisp.org does not work again /___\. Does somebody know why? 04:10:35 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:51 probably maintenance downtime or capacity problems... 04:10:57 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 04:13:31 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.19.141.83] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 04:13:40 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:43 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:13:54 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.83] has joined #lisp 04:15:31 jokes aside, if it will not get up soon, it's necessary to inform maintainers of course, as none of them seems to be here 04:15:46 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:29 (as none replied) 04:23:20 cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:23:59 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 04:24:55 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#lisp 06:59:14 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-018-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:23 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.47.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:02:09 _nix00 [~Adium@183.129.234.194] has joined #lisp 07:04:15 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-95.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 07:06:58 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 07:08:39 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 07:12:39 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-17-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:15:28 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-95.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:16:01 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.70.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:19:07 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:27:36 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:48 -!- attila_lendvai 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[~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:47 paolo_m` [~user@adsl-ull-251-192.49-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 07:59:47 -!- paolo_m [~user@adsl-ull-204-219.49-151.net24.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:05:25 _nix001 [~Adium@183.129.234.194] has joined #lisp 08:07:02 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 08:07:25 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:08:03 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@183.129.234.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:15:40 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-209-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 08:20:04 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-226-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:22:33 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:23:10 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002d0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:42 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 08:23:52 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:29:26 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:09 hm.... 08:31:23 is there some nice way of mirroring quicklisp.org? 08:32:54 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:33:36 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:36:58 done. 08:37:00 lame. 08:39:52 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:40 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@183.129.234.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46:20 -!- paolo_m` [~user@adsl-ull-251-192.49-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 08:49:33 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 08:51:06 -!- sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:34 benny [~user@i577A71E6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:35 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:55:05 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:55:09 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:59:36 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-209-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:44 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 09:04:19 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181087178.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:08:24 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181087178.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:51 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 09:10:38 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:38 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:12:46 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:13:34 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 09:14:11 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:14:27 -!- 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[~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:23:59 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:37 kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13EA42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:39 Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:31:48 -!- benny [~user@i577A71E6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:32:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:59 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:24 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@77.72.60.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:35:17 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:35:21 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:43 benny [~user@i577A71E6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:08 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:26 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:56 Looking at SETQ FOO after DEFVAR FOO in foo.lisp, wondering how anyone else is doing, this fine morning.... 10:44:04 Kvaks [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:47:28 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:49 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:50:17 huhu? 10:50:31 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:52:08 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 10:53:23 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53:50 Pip [~DaBian@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 10:55:06 fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 10:57:18 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:57:53 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:01:14 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 11:03:16 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 11:03:33 Trying to load CL+J in MKCL on Win7. It seems that I have to set CL-USER::*JVM-PATH* to an appropriate value before jni.lisp is loaded 11:04:43 ...and then to figure out where cl_j/RunInLisp is, and why MKCL cannot find it now that CL+J is loaded, lol 11:05:14 Erm, or Java, whichever is looking for whatever that string names 11:05:47 Yeah it's a Java exception thing 11:07:07 *gimbal* tells self to RTFM 11:08:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:57 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-149-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:11:54 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:11:57 gimbal: fire up ABCL and you get access to a JVM for free :-) 11:12:44 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 11:15:08 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:15:23 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:15:38 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:16:43 ehu: I was looking at ABCL earlier, this morning, but had difficulty loading the source code into Eclipse as a Maven project - which I'd assumed it could be, due to the presence of pom.xml in its source tree. There was a matter of a missing Junit dependency. I decided to take a look at MKCL and CL+J instead 11:17:11 can that be loaded into exclipse? 11:17:27 I use abcl with slime and emacs. 11:17:42 except when developing abcl itself, which I do with NetBeans. 11:17:44 By "load" I mean "import project source tree" lol 11:17:57 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:33 I download netbeans, install it, check out abcl, run netbeans and open the ABCL project in it. 11:18:35 that's all. 11:18:39 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:43 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 11:18:53 no idea why that would not work with eclipse. 11:19:30 It worked, but there was the missing Junit dep 11:23:22 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 11:25:23 weird. abcl doesn't use junit; its tests may require it, but the project itself doesn't. 11:26:28 There are some patches for grinding out Eclipse artifacts from me circa 2009 floating around somewhere. 11:27:10 "grinding out Eclipse artifacts" to the point that Eclipse will open, run, and debug the ABCL source tree to the same level as Netbeans. 11:28:36 All IDEs for ABCL "thunk down" to the underlying Ant build.xml, so maintaining this isn't too tough. 11:29:18 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:29:34 Just no one in the ABCL core uses Eclipse enough to test this enough to keep it working with contemporary Eclipse releases. Contributions solicited. 11:30:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:32:38 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:30 ehu: the Java code in ABCL's test/src uses Junit 11:34:53 gimbal: But it is downloaded automagically by the build.xml. 11:35:26 Eclipse doesn't put junit.jar into the classpath unless you set it in the .classpath file(s). 11:36:17 An easy way around this, would be to mark all source under $ABCL_ROOT/test/src as not being part of the main ABCL build. 11:36:50 easye: I'd been using the Maven integration for Eclipse (m2eclipse) - used it to import the source tree via SVN, and had thought it would be sufficient for the dependency management. Maybe I should consider using Apache Ivy instead, if ABCL's build process uses Ant 11:36:56 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:37:32 My patches instruct Eclipse to use the Ant build.xml for its idea of what to build, run, package, debug, etc. 11:38:02 *easye* knows that Ivy abstracts Ant, but not much beyond that about using it. 11:38:11 *gimbal* cheers that (cl+j:java-init) has "worked" in his platform configuration 11:38:50 gimbal: Ahh. The Maven POM in $ABCL_ROOT/pom.xml cannot be used for building. It is just used for releasing. 11:38:52 easye: it's relatively straightforward, but can be a little challenging to figure out for its configuration semantics, IMO 11:39:15 easye: ok 11:39:17 Maybe we should remove the release time pom.xml files from the source releases. 11:39:35 I'd picked it up via SVN 11:40:45 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:31 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 11:41:49 Ah. Maybe there is way to emit an error for Maven about missing build instructions. 11:41:50 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 11:41:53 *easye* loathes Maven. 11:43:21 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:28 Using CL+J for ABCL is cool: one is using CFFI to create a separate JVM process to run ones code in. 11:43:58 dralston [~nickserv@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:22 -!- dralston [~nickserv@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:44:28 easye: Ahh, was wondering how the process model is with it 11:45:49 As far as Maven, I think it works out nicely so long as one has requirements not exceeding those of the respective Maven plugin developers. Beyond that, the configuration IMO gets kind of hairy 11:46:03 gimbal: currently CFFI callbacks don't work. I'm working on it. Check http://slack.net/~evenson/abcl/cffi/ for snapshots of patches against Quicklisp's CFFI. 11:46:29 O 11:46:36 Erg tablet 11:46:47 easye: ok. Thanks 11:48:01 I think MKCL might ship with its own CFFI release 11:48:24 with cffi will be almost perfect! :) .. I'm waiting that moment! 11:50:10 *gimbal* searches for the right buzzword - "vendor compatibility"? 11:51:40 Trying to superimpose a Java style "Enterprise" market/industry model onto Common Lisp => ? 11:52:13 ... for what? 11:52:25 For executive summaries :) 11:52:35 gimbal: please don't do that 11:53:08 gimbal: You woke up the denziens of #lisp who really hate business buzzwords. 11:53:12 *p_l* still doesn't remember the reason for MKCLs existence, too 11:53:56 fe[nl]ix: won't, but I suppose I should try to understand the differences between the respective industries (?) (producers) of Java programming and Common Lisp programming 11:53:57 p_l: I think disagreement with juanjo about patches for trunk. 11:54:04 gimbal: I meant do not instigate or induce the MKCL developer to ship a forked version of CFFI 11:54:18 gimbal: He doesn't want to do it necessarily on #lisp 11:54:37 fe[nl]ix: oh, I see, well I think it already ships with such ? Checking installation directory... 11:55:05 better, submit a patch for CFFI to take care of the issues 11:55:06 wtf 11:55:18 don't ship broken CFFI 11:55:19 anyone who ships with a private CFFI is "doing it wrong" 11:55:37 Well it's in MKCL's bundled contrib dir at least - perhaps it's not a fork, then? 11:55:42 sodel [~nickserv@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:43 private CFFI is broken CFFI 11:55:50 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:56 gimbal: that would be acceptable... more than half a decade ago 11:56:00 CFFI is very responsive to almost any per-implementation patches. 11:56:00 not anymore, IMO 11:56:06 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:07 My mistake - "contrib" is not "forked" I see 11:56:15 p_l: ??? 11:56:16 _main_ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:26 easye: as for ECL/MKCL split, what kind of patches it was? 11:56:40 fe[nl]ix: Before we got better distribution tools 11:57:07 I don't want to try to figure which CFFI got loaded because someone bundled it in contribs 11:57:23 p_l: Dunno. I respect juanjo, so I've just ignored MKCL. 11:57:24 unless the *I* did the configuration change in question 11:57:49 easye: I seem to recall the original discussion, and it weighed strongly towards MKCL being a "metoo" 11:58:17 p_l: My impression as well, but don't want to voice that per se, as I haven't done my fact checking. 11:58:25 might have to check 11:58:26 (jni::cffi-version) => "0.10.7.1" 11:58:38 after all, I'm doing a new lisp overlay for gentoo 11:58:50 p_l: why ? 11:59:09 fe[nl]ix: the current one has the c-l-c asdf dependency 11:59:11 p_l: just come on #gentoo-lisp and take over the existing one 11:59:28 p_l: so what ? fix it don't start a new one 11:59:37 fe[nl]ix: Ill first check my builds, if it works, I might port my fixes to existing one 11:59:51 -!- _main_ is now known as __main__ 11:59:56 hell, if the maintainer slot is empty, I *will* port it 12:00:24 though not sure if the style of my changes will be acceptable for other users of lisp-overlay 12:00:29 *p_l* is playing it safe for now 12:01:08 (load (concatenate 'string %cl+j-directory% "demos/hello_swing.lisp")) --> me: Yay that worked! 12:02:55 The thought that each programming language may be accompanied with its own respectively evolved producer/consumer model => ? 12:05:01 Regarding forks, I remember someone once mentioning something like a "load patches" function in the lispms of the great old ones :) 12:05:11 -!- sodel [~nickserv@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 12:09:35 gimbal: it's usually easier to construct pathnames with pathname functions rather than string functions. merge-pathnames should work instead of concatenate. 12:10:10 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:10:16 Is there at all any way to simulate virtual workspaces with stumpwm? (If there is a better channel to ask, please tell me where. There is no stumpwm channel). 12:10:39 C-t g n ? 12:10:44 C-t g c ? 12:10:49 create a new one 12:10:55 and change between them 12:11:20 yes stump does give you that 12:11:31 Xach: thanks, been feeling rusty about my understanding of CL pathname semantics and operations, will have to look at that in the CLHS 12:11:52 wbooze: Is there a way I can switch with alt- between them? I am used to have some workspaces for certain use: 2:nd for browsing, 3:rd for email etc. 12:11:56 C-t g n, C-t g p for next, previous 12:11:57 mrcarrot: I think there is a stumpwm channel 12:12:02 mrcarrot: there is #stumpwm 12:12:21 I joined there a few minutes ago and found myself alone there. 12:12:32 mrcarrot: i think you can bind keys, yes, but dunno, i didn't use or attempted that..... 12:12:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:51 hmmmmm 12:12:59 mrcarrot: https://github.com/daimrod/Stwumpwm-config/blob/master/config-bindings.lisp#L17 12:13:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:16 maybe easiest from your .stumprc file or so 12:13:17 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:13:23 mrcarrot: I suspect you did it on the wrong server then 12:13:27 mrcarrot: and https://github.com/daimrod/Stwumpwm-config/blob/master/config-bindings.lisp#L8 12:13:40 I must have been writing the wrong channel name apparently. I joined again now, and now I found people :) 12:15:24 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-160.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:22 homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:24 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-160.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:18:30 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 12:20:31 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:22:25 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 12:22:59 -!- leoncamel [~user@124.126.218.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 12:24:33 leoncamel [~user@124.126.218.104] has joined #lisp 12:28:17 -!- Pip [~DaBian@unaffiliated/pip] has quit [Quit: ] 12:30:06 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 12:30:23 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-197-29.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has joined #lisp 12:35:59 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:36:54 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:12 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:54:58 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:42 peterhil` [~peterhil@77.72.60.131] has joined #lisp 13:03:10 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 13:03:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:13 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11:59 homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:00 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:16:58 [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:19:27 <[6502]> Hello. What is the good part of the parallel nature of (let ...) ? seems that both let and let* could be defined one using the other, why is let (the parallel one) the default one? in my code sometimes I use let* because I need, but in most other cases both let and let* could have been used... why isn't let* the default? 13:22:03 Well, LET tells me I don't have to check the order or the assignments. 13:22:19 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:25 LET* sez: you need to (possibly) think about me for a while. 13:22:44 <[6502]> easye: you're still guaranteed the expressions will be evaluated in order... what do you mean with you don't need to check? 13:22:48 LET also "lets" (ha ha) the compiler do optimizations. 13:23:38 (let* ((a 2) (b (+2 a))) ..) vs ... 13:24:13 (substitute +1 to actually get that to work) 13:24:31 easye: (more like 1+) 13:24:33 <[6502]> it's 1+ 13:24:59 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 13:25:24 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@77.72.60.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:34 mm... the standard is kind iffy on this point .. 13:25:40 *easye* sighs. 13:25:56 <[6502]> ams: which point? 13:25:58 Yeah, what they said. 13:27:01 "let performs the bindings in parallel" but later, "first evaluates the expressions init-form-1, init-form-2, and so on, in that order, saving the resulting values."; if it is in the order of init-form-1, init-form2, ... then it cannot be parallel imho 13:27:35 <[6502]> ams: it's named "parallel" because in the evaluation of all the expressions none of the bindings that let introduces is visible 13:27:39 ams: in parallel simply means that the bindings won't shadow other variables with the same name in the outer scope. 13:27:56 or what [6502] says 13:27:56 <[6502]> ams: but the order of evaluation is guaranteed in common lisp (and that's a good thing IMO) 13:28:04 ah 13:28:10 sorry, yeah, not enough coffee.. 13:28:13 peterhil` [~peterhil@77.72.60.131] has joined #lisp 13:28:55 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:56 (wish that there had been a link to parallel there in the spec ... hehe :-) 13:29:51 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:03 [6502]: uhm, i wasn't argugin that having the order of evaluation specified was bad, or good for that matter. 13:30:14 <[6502]> checking my code I can't remember a case in which I used let but i couldn't have used let* 13:30:15 indeed, if you wish to let the compiler do funky stuff, then order is _bad_ 13:30:22 <[6502]> checking=thinking 13:30:25 <[6502]> but I will check :-) 13:30:40 and a plet or whatever where the order of evaluation is not specified would let the compiler order the code in a more efficient manner 13:32:58 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:33:47 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@77.72.60.131] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 13:38:14 mrm [~user@92.50.188.118] has joined #lisp 13:39:01 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-197-29.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:42:57 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 13:43:35 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:10 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 13:44:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:13 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 13:49:34 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: pa pa/bye bye] 13:50:33 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 13:52:21 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 13:57:18 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:39 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:06 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:57 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:49 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:04:46 Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 Looking at cl+j, it uses a sort of proxy class model, in making an interface onto the JVM. I wonder if there may be anything similar in ACL's jLinker or in some way in ABCL? 14:07:21 gimbal: depends on what kind of code you wish to run. 14:07:27 And where. 14:07:55 If you want your code to run on more implementations then ABCL, it will all have to "pass through" CL+J 14:08:09 It's easier for me to look at it like lisp-to-java. Going java-to-lisp might require another perspective, I think. I've read that MKCL is the choice implementation for CL+J, and CL+J and MKCL would be a sort of FOSS Toolchain, therefore MKCL :) 14:08:28 easye: ok 14:08:33 If you are looking at just running on ABCL, then there are certainly more choices for the lisp-to-java approach. 14:09:44 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:26 easye: I've started sketching out a sort of proxy class model such that might be portable onto CL+J, jLinker, and maybe in some way ABCL, just for making a portable interface onto Java, from the Lisp environment, just thinking about portability ATM 14:10:53 all in that MOP sugariness :) 14:12:04 Sort of the long way around to a Jena-to-Lisp bridge without depending exclusively on Allegrograph 14:18:17 The MOP glue for it, and the portability layer, IMO will be the tougher parts to develop - let alone, that each implementation might have its own approach to the Java thread model, Java exceptions, and primitive types - and however events and callbacks exist in the JVM 14:18:50 It looks nicely straightforward so far as the basic object model, IMO :) 14:19:54 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 *gimbal* afk 14:20:19 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:21:36 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:04 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:24:26 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 14:25:00 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 14:27:28 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:35 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 14:30:33 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 14:32:14 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.70.223] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 14:38:25 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 14:38:53 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:39:13 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:39 Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:20 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.89] has joined #lisp 14:45:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:50:07 paste.lisp.org is down :/ 14:51:50 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 14:56:14 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:32 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-146.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:53 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:02:16 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-226-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:59 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 15:09:32 Kneferilis [d507b433@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.7.180.51] has joined #lisp 15:09:35 hello 15:10:16 any comment on LispWorks? It provides the functionality in libraries, that e.g. the Java Virtual Machine provides? It's not clear at their site 15:12:27 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-15-225.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:12:48 Kneferilis: it provides the libs it has included, which is afaik a both a bit more and a bit less compared to JVM standard class lib 15:13:02 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:13:11 there's a list of libs that are included in Professional and Enterprise editions of LW 15:13:21 they seem very limited 15:13:23 you can get a lot more from quicklisp, too 15:14:02 antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-243-53.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 15:14:40 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 15:14:57 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.133.247] has joined #lisp 15:15:24 I thought Common Lisp has an extensive standard library 15:15:30 Kneferilis: lispworks comes with an ide and a cross-platform gui library. that is what distinguishes it from free lisps 15:15:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:54 Kneferilis: "extensive" does not have a very clearly defined meaning 15:16:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:57 Kneferilis: compared to languages in the same time frame of conception. LW tends to deliver the "missing bits and pieces" that people stumble over, while letting you use the wider lisp ecosystem and C (and ObjC and C++ etc.) libs 15:17:26 also, application delivery is easy with lispworks. 15:17:35 <[6502]> Kneferilis: it was a big library in '80s, compared to today "battery included" of Java or Python it's a tiny one... but there's an huge amount of external (non-standard) libraries... like it happens for C++ 15:17:39 (not that it is very hard with other lisps, but slightly so) 15:19:08 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 heh .. (defun test (&rest args) (let ((var (car args))) (princ var))) (test) is giving CORRUPTION WARNING in sbcl-1.1.0 15:19:50 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 15:19:58 happens even with sbcl --no-userinit from the terminal 15:20:06 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:55 I see. 15:29:04 thanks for the information 15:29:07 -!- Kneferilis [d507b433@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.7.180.51] has left #lisp 15:29:15 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:30:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:31:08 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 15:36:25 oGMo: works for me 15:36:52 oGMo: ah, no, different version, never mind. 15:38:51 oGMo: oh, damn. Can you report it? It's kind of obvious after the fact. 15:40:33 pkhuong: heh k .. launchpad or mailing list? 15:41:08 oGMo: LP. 15:45:01 hi 15:45:24 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 15:45:56 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:46:12 please I need help with libusb-ffi and an hid device with two endpoints: 0x81 EP1 IN and 0x02 EP 2 OUT. The usb device is found and opened, but writing to EP 1 fails with buld write error 15:46:13 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 -!- [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:49:12 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:49:26 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:07 done: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1072112 15:50:58 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:53:50 Is clpython still maintained? 15:55:10 Juleshs [~Dzawa@50.23.65.37-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:03 -!- Juleshs [~Dzawa@50.23.65.37-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:05 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.133.247] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 15:57:27 kliph 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joined #lisp 17:51:58 -!- thethomaseffect [~thethomas@109.255.215.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:53:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-244.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:31 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:58:10 mrm [~user@77.79.151.246.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:02:45 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:45 joekarma|bot [~joekarma|@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:10 -!- joekarma|bot [~joekarma|@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 18:03:42 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:06:22 1) http://pastebin.com/9FzaSPSm 2) http://pastebin.com/p0FwMm0d -still slow- :( 18:07:23 ops: wrong channel :(( 18:10:07 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-171-16.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:40 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:11:21 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-45-240.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 -!- iLogical_ is now known as iLogical 18:13:28 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-75-132.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:28 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 18:13:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 18:18:36 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkzrtbripzbtoixf] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:07 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:23:13 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 18:29:17 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 18:31:48 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-125-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:21 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-125-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:36:54 -!- christophergonza [~user@c-76-102-115-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:40 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 18:39:48 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-125-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:40:45 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:27 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:42:14 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:45 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 18:43:49 what framework is recommended for a lisp beginnerw 18:43:50 ? 18:43:56 tried weblocks, but is too confusing 18:44:17 restas 18:44:19 I mean, for web development 18:44:31 checking 18:44:34 http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 18:46:26 -!- mrm [~user@77.79.151.246.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:47:43 paul0: https://gist.github.com/3965651 18:48:10 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.18.127.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:54 run that following a quickload of restas and cl-who: (ql:quickload '(:restas :cl-who)) 18:50:26 you can then navigate to your app at localhost:8080 but not 127.0.0.1:8080 ... the hostname parameter in restas:start is what is accomplishing this. Using this library you can easily have multiple web apps running on the same port 18:50:50 cool 18:51:06 couldn't find anything for session management 18:51:23 restas is built on top of hunchentoot which provides the session management stuff 18:51:40 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-125-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:45 hm 18:52:08 (hunchentoot:start-session), (hunchentoot:session-value), etc. 18:52:09 and for hosting, do you use vps? 18:52:18 yes 18:52:41 I put nginx out front and restas/hunchentoot in back 18:53:37 the only reason I do it this way really is because I don't want my lisp image to run as root and I can't really bind to port 80 otherwise 18:54:05 though nginx does provide some advantages 18:54:10 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:54:55 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.100.0.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 18:56:14 joekarma: nice 18:56:23 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:27 I've installed sbcl in my dreamhost account 18:56:36 but maybe I should get a VPS 18:56:48 I would say yes 18:57:34 christoph_debian [~user@2001:a60:f01c:0:42::1] has joined #lisp 18:58:32 *Xach* pays for a real server, is happy 19:00:00 jewel [~jewel@105-236-190-2.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:02:38 -!- kleppari [~spa@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:02:51 kleppari [~spa@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:47 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:05:31 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 19:05:32 happy to pay? :) 19:05:57 I feel like it's a great value for the level of flexibility and control 19:08:42 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 19:20:03 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:20:03 well, I need to learn about packages I guess 19:20:35 hunchentoot seems easy enought to start web development, and all other use it anyway 19:20:54 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:20:57 paul0: I still recommend using restas on top of it 19:21:24 paul0: hunchentoot doesn't make it easy to have multiple websites in one lisp image 19:22:20 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:43 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.125.20] has joined #lisp 19:22:53 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:23:01 restas is thin enough, and its better to use their routing module than to try to define your own on top of hunchentoot (believe me, I tried) 19:24:24 hm 19:24:40 Really? I'm sure restas is great, but I didn't find it too difficult to do routing on plain hunchentoot. 19:25:02 it seems pretty easy 19:25:51 Xach: it's not difficult per se, but if you want multiple websites you can't use easy acceptors or anything liek that 19:26:20 Ah. My learning of hunchentoot predates all the easy acceptor stuff. 19:26:34 *Xach* stuffs stuff into the dispatch table 19:26:58 I find it appears deceptively easy 19:27:14 when in fact for common use cases, far easier to use something like restas and not think about it at all 19:27:45 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 this PCL is so awesome 19:32:09 with hunchentoot alone, to have multiple websites in one image I found myself (at a minimum) coding something like this for every website: https://gist.github.com/3965781 ... then as I started to code a more sophisticated routing mechanism I realized that RESTAS basically just took care of that for me in a much better way than I was doing it 19:33:49 christophergonza [~user@c-76-102-115-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:32 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:39:48 why I can use (in-package "test") but (in-package :test) doesn't work? 19:39:59 (in-package :cl) works 19:41:23 paul0: the name is case-sensitive 19:41:35 paul0: "test" and :test default to two different names, one lowercase and one uppercase 19:41:45 hm 19:43:03 redefined it with (defpackage :test), that worked 19:43:22 i use #:uninterned symbols 19:44:16 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 19:47:39 does anyone know of a function similar to symbol-name, but if the symbol name has bars || around it they are included? I'm thinking I'll just have to ppcre:regex-replace the output of prin1-to-string, but thought I'd ask here first 19:48:04 joekarma: the bars are not part of the symbol name, they are syntax for escaping. 19:48:06 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:48 ah, so it is, thanks Xach 19:48:57 -!- christophergonza [~user@c-76-102-115-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:51 I was thinking it might be possible for libs like cl-who or monkeylib-html to work with case sensitive symbols, but now I see that would fall apart when single characters are provided 19:50:38 i.e. (monkeylib-html:xml (:|CaseSensitive| (:something "foo"))) 19:51:12 unfortunately there would be no way for the lib to know that :|A| should be uppercase 19:51:46 why wouldn't it? 19:51:54 (symbol-name :|A|) => "A" 19:52:15 because it would have no way of knowing the symbol was provided as :|A| instead of :a 19:52:39 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:01 probably not a big deal though 19:53:24 well you'd have to specify lowercase a as :|a| of course 19:53:30 *Xach* builds sbcl in 4.5 minutes, sets lap on fire 19:53:44 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.125.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:54:34 Bike: but if you want lowercase to be the default case then you're in trouble 19:55:17 you could mess with readtable-case. might be better to just not use symbols, though. 19:55:45 probably 19:56:09 or have something like :|^A| for uppercase letters 19:57:06 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:59:25 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.44.162] has joined #lisp 20:00:08 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:54 -!- nlpplz [~nlpplz@24-176-224-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:03:54 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 20:06:31 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:50 paul0: here's another example site, this time with javascript and css but only using libraries with sexp syntaxes https://gist.github.com/3965955 20:07:54 see also http://www.cliki.net/S-exp%20syntax 20:08:08 joekarma: thanks 20:08:15 I was looking at package system, and quickproject 20:08:31 created a project, but I don't have any idea of what should I do now 20:08:32 quickproject is awesome, I recommend it 20:09:06 did you create your project in ~/quicklisp/local-projects ? 20:09:11 I was writing a parser for our national package tracking system 20:09:28 joekarma: no, in my own projects directory 20:09:39 should I move there? 20:09:49 it's an easy way to make it automatically loadable 20:09:52 for now, unless you want to set up quicklisp to look there 20:10:00 right 20:10:02 or should I say, set up asdf to look there 20:10:28 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 20:10:34 you really want to be able to (ql:quickload :your-project) to be productive 20:11:13 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:25 hm... 20:11:26 i wonder. 20:11:36 joekarma: doing that, thanks :) 20:12:03 you can also try googling source-registry.conf.d <- that'll point you to some tutorials on how to set up your own projects directories 20:12:14 if you don't want to use local-projects 20:12:31 -!- yakov [~yakov@77.234.195.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:32 anyone got a hack to show images, or such inlined in emacs via swank? 20:12:58 (or pdf, ps, whatever) 20:13:22 paul0: actually I don't use local-projects for my own projects either, because one day I might forget and rm -rf quicklisp while reinstalling or something 20:13:49 paul0: I use it sort of as a contrib directory 20:14:23 joekarma: probably nothing that a symbolic link doesn't solve 20:14:31 nice, could load my project using quicklisp 20:14:47 i dump stuff in ~/lisp/systems and quicklisp lives in ~/lisp/quicklisp, with sbcl/clisp/gcl under ~/lisp as well.. 20:15:10 I have some dependencies on some libraries loaded by quicklisp, it'll load them automatically? 20:15:16 yes 20:15:38 paul0: also, true, a symbolic link would solve it, but I like having one directory for stuff I git cloned from others and one for my own stuff... different strokes for different folks though 20:15:47 paul0: yeah, and it will load your own projects as well if you add them to the search path 20:15:56 you don't need to add a symlink 20:16:13 Will leave my stuff on quicklisp/local-projects for now 20:16:26 fair enough 20:16:57 or you could frob sbcl or whatever and put quicklisp under sbcl/contrib :-) 20:17:08 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:17:10 interesting, but what if I want to create an web app, for example, and make it run on my server? 20:17:31 how to run standalone apps using this system? 20:17:42 paul0: dump a world image and run it_ 20:17:50 or just fire up sbcl on the remote host ... 20:17:56 might look at git based workflows for deployment 20:18:00 oh, I've heard people talking about lisp images, I don't know what is this 20:18:19 paul0: a lisp image is just a dump of the currently loaded memory of your lisp world 20:18:31 personally I do all my development live on the server, I know, I know 20:18:33 that's deep 20:19:07 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:19:10 lisp images are something specific to sbcl, or every lisp implementation have? 20:19:21 every 20:19:31 paul0: most lisp implementations, it is how you would normally work on back in the day, not as common today 20:19:43 -!- antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-243-53.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:20:29 you'd have a world that was specific for some task ... like if you where doing electronic circuts then you'd have one image which had whatever programs associated with that loaded, or one for webby stuff, or whatever. 20:20:36 how do I dump an image, and how I run it? 20:21:04 with sbcl, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html 20:21:06 check your implementation's manual 20:21:16 using sbcl here 20:21:16 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:21:19 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:21:21 man sbcl will reveal --core 20:21:31 and then sbcl --core ... 20:22:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-190-2.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:22:35 paul0: i have a world for web stuff for example, with hunchentoot, cl-who, and such loaded ... so I don't need to do silly things like compiling everything, one for gui stuff, etc. 20:22:52 paul0: and then if i have a web program i might dump that for usage 20:22:52 also, there is any practical way to clean up my slime session? Without having to kill it and start again? 20:22:59 paul0: back on the subject of deployment to server, have you seen marco baringer's SLIME video? 20:23:28 joekarma: no 20:23:33 ams: interesting concept 20:23:35 well, I recommend it 20:23:36 paul0: "clean up" how? 20:23:48 Xach: I have some stuff defined, functions, packages 20:23:59 Xach: want to reset everything, and get a new session 20:24:03 paul0: the fastest and most reliable way is to restart the session. you can do it piece by piece with things like unintern, fmakunbound, delete-package, etc. 20:24:07 ocassionally I've had to (do-symbols (sym :package) (unintern sym)) 20:24:19 paul0: ,restart-inferior-lisp is the repl shortcut 20:24:29 s/ocassionally/occasionally / 20:25:06 Xach: thanks 20:25:44 ams: I've been thinking about doing that but I was wondering if it would break things every time quicklisp is updated 20:25:52 ams: have you run into any problems in this regard? 20:26:20 joekarma: no, why would it break anything? you're not re-reading the fasl's or whatever .. 20:26:49 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 20:27:02 ; Evaluation aborted on #. 20:27:14 tried save-lisp-and-die, got this 20:27:41 ams: I guess that's true 20:27:54 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:28:11 joekarma: and i do regenerate them quite often :-) 20:28:34 joekarma: at least the images that contain code i work on .. 20:29:05 I wonder if qlmapper could be jerry-rigged to generate the images... 20:29:19 qlmapper? 20:29:22 well, code kept inside qlmapper anyhow 20:29:27 https://github.com/xach/qlmapper 20:29:47 it spawns an sbcl instance for every quicklisp system 20:30:23 yep, run-sbcl should do it 20:30:35 hm, i see. 20:30:55 done, saved an image 20:31:05 joekarma: probably, but not sure why you'd want to? it would take up an awful lot of disk space 20:31:22 hum, can't use save-lisp-and-die in slime? 20:31:44 paul0: you can, but it requires undoing some state. it's far easier not to start slime. 20:31:53 that's why i usually use buildapp... 20:31:54 paul0: think about what the name implies, ... 20:32:13 ams: hah, right 20:32:22 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:32:22 Have an image, how do I load it? 20:32:26 Xach: I don't mean to generate an image per quicklisp library, just use it for periodically regenerating one lisp image which preloads libraries you use often 20:32:28 paul0: man sbcl 20:32:33 paul0: sbcl --core image file 20:32:55 ams: don't want to read the full manual, just some tips :) 20:33:01 paul0: read the manual. 20:33:11 actually I searched for "image" on the manual, didn't find anything useful 20:33:28 paul0: i posted a link, paul0 mentioned the switch before as well. 20:34:04 movie time! 20:34:06 happy hacking. 20:34:30 nice, almos have the enought knowledge to start writing some web apps 20:34:35 *almost 20:34:41 cya 20:34:46 ams: cya 20:35:31 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 paul0: learn about hunchentoot, cl, and such before you bother with images :-) 20:36:38 ams: just wanted to know how to organize projects and make things run 20:36:49 paul0: start with one file. :-) 20:36:56 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@208.185.18.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:37:31 one program i wrote is 100k, single file. :-) 20:37:41 paul0: asd file stores dependencies and decides which files to load and in which order 20:38:21 with stuff like M-. and what not it really doesn't matter if you have multiple files or not 20:38:49 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:39:27 hitek [~case@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:36 I like having multiple files because if I'm browsing your project in github or something it makes it slightly easier to know what file I want to look at, but how you organize your project is your business (for now) 20:40:17 having said that, I'm going to second ams that it's probably better to start with one file 20:40:26 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:43 joekarma: oh, yeah, if i was about to publish it somewhere i'd split it definitly 20:40:47 especially since until you've actually done some programming you don't really *know* what organization scheme makes the most sense 20:40:54 joekarma: and i can do it mechanically, got scripts for that .. 20:41:05 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002d0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:41:06 -!- hitek [~case@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:17 s/done some programming/done some programming on that specific project/ 20:41:19 (basically rips out ;;;; sections into seperate files) 20:41:30 cool 20:41:39 gotta love lisp for that 20:41:54 and i have one that does the reverse as well.. 20:42:06 blobs together a bunch of lisp files into one big one 20:42:49 (personally i prefer one file per package) 20:45:11 I suppose if everyone did that we wouldn't need asdf? 20:45:16 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:45:45 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:52 :-) 20:47:35 not going to say anything else on the topic of asdf :-) 20:47:46 I don't think I'd like that though. My recent-files in emacs wouldn't give any clue as to what components I was looking at 20:48:10 joekarma: hence name the files as components, and use speedbar or such to view the structre of the file. 20:49:00 wow, I didn't know about speedbar, thanks for that 20:49:47 -!- wyan [~wyan@92.243.10.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:51 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 20:52:19 i realise that some people think that it is crazy to dump everything in a single file, but i think it forces you to think about what you are doing 20:56:29 joekarma: and using pages is also nice, next-page/previous-page rock, ditto for narrow-page 20:56:45 SrPx [bb7e748f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.126.116.143] has joined #lisp 20:56:53 What is the name of that lisp that compiles to js? 20:56:58 parenscript 20:57:14 ams: checking into it 20:58:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A211C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:51 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 21:03:16 joekarma: ty 21:05:15 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 21:05:53 joekarma: a package is not a system 21:06:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:04 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:31 ams: you might like literate programming. it works reasonably well with orgmode. 21:08:43 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:10:43 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:12:11 madnificent: ah, you're right, I misunderstood ams to be talking about one (lisp) file per library 21:12:33 Is there any lisp dialect that compiles to readable javascript, using it's data structures and types? 21:12:51 SrPx: did you look into parenscript? 21:13:12 joekarma: yes, maybe I misunderstood it? 21:13:14 let me see again 21:13:14 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:30 SrPx: there's also ScriptL (i may be mistaken in the name) which provides a lisp system for javascript. it's not common lisp, but it integrates quite well. 21:13:49 scriptl provides a way to call lisp functions from the command line 21:13:56 so probably another library 21:13:59 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:43 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.70.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14:43 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:15:07 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-168-134.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 21:15:07 joekarma: then i'm wrong 21:17:13 joekarma: slip, perhaps? there are many 21:17:39 ah, slip rings a bell for me, probably 21:17:46 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 21:18:21 madnificent: didnt find it 21:18:29 slip? hm 21:18:34 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:18:51 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 21:19:10 SrPx: https://gist.github.com/3966318 21:19:10 SrPx: http://slip.lisperator.net/ 21:19:21 SrPx: I find that to be readable 21:19:25 hmm 21:19:32 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-149-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:19:40 (that was parenscript by the way) 21:20:23 mmm... maybe sit down tomorrow and get clim-desktop back into working shape.. 21:21:16 SrPx: if you don't care if it's common lisp, there's also clojurescript which is perhaps more trendy these days 21:21:43 *madnificent* curses joekarma for even thinking about it 21:22:03 just sayin' 21:23:22 clojurescript doesn't compile to readable js, does it!? 21:23:28 no clue 21:23:36 and well I'm very unconfortable with it's lack of reader macros 21:23:40 scheme maybe 21:25:10 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 21:25:10 there's one way to cause an earthquake. mention clojure in #lisp. the collective shaking as everyone reviles in horror will cause a seismic event 21:25:34 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:02 joekarma: and that's why there's this giant storm coming in the us! it's *your* fault! ;) 21:29:18 oh, there I go again 21:29:48 :P 21:32:02 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:32:11 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:35:16 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:56 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.44.162] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:39:36 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 21:40:24 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:37 bitonic` [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:44 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 21:41:45 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 21:41:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:24 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 21:46:06 -!- bitonic` [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:07 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:48 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.56.80] has joined #lisp 21:48:34 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:51:41 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:52:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:21 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:23 bitonic` [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:49 What is the difference between the words 'parse', 'read' and 'lex'? For me, parsing and reading were both converting strings "(a b (c d))" into proper tree-structures. Lexer, no idea. Restructuring it? 22:01:14 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:03 depends on the context those terms are used. the lisp reader handles parsing as well, but in other languages reading may simply entail slurping up code as a string 22:02:22 "lexer" usually refers to a program that takes text into a series of lexical tokens, like LEFTPAREN SYMBOL(A) SYMBOL(B) LEFTPAREN etc. 22:03:36 'reading' and 'parsing' is generally the same thing, then? 22:03:47 Bike: ...? 22:03:57 for what 22:04:17 a lexer is a program that reads a file into tokens. 22:04:27 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 22:05:03 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:57 SrPx: it is generally much easier to parse a token stream than a character stream. 22:06:56 Hmm OK... 22:07:03 So it comes before the parser? 22:07:13 And yes, is 'reading' and 'parsing' the same thing generally, then? 22:07:31 SrPx: you have to read something to be able to parse it. 22:07:36 'reading' means converting text into lisp data structures, or that's how I'd use it in context. 'parsing' is more broad 22:08:36 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 22:09:15 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:19 hmm ... 22:16:26 that's what I understood as parsing 22:16:57 i'd say reading lisp code is a kind of parsing. 22:17:41 reading is kinda a overloaded word. 22:21:19 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 22:23:07 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: quitters gonna quit :|] 22:26:32 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 22:27:39 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.82] has joined #lisp 22:28:43 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 22:29:13 -!- SrPx [bb7e748f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.126.116.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:18 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.56.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:32 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.82] 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meaning from a symbolic structure 22:55:31 converting text into tokens has been called "lexing" from "lexical analysis" 22:59:01 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 22:59:27 -!- basso [~quassel@pc5038.stdby.hin.no] has left #lisp 23:00:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:39 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:00:58 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.47.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:40 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:11 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: eternal darkness] 23:08:53 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:13:24 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] 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