00:01:47 lavois [~quassel@cpe-075-189-234-187.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:49 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:50 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:01:50 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:05:17 -!- timack [~timack@unaffiliated/timack] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:30 catmtking_ [~catmtking@wireless-fac-staff-wpa-138-23-67-254.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 00:05:30 -!- catmtking_ [~catmtking@wireless-fac-staff-wpa-138-23-67-254.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:05:34 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:06:17 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:50 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:07:25 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:26 timack [~timack@hlfx57-1-28.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:07:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:08:28 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has joined #lisp 00:08:52 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 00:09:22 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:17 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:09 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx57-1-28.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:12:54 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:13:00 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 00:15:15 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:42 -!- justinmc_ [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-107-153.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:16:30 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:09 is there a way to do something like this directly without triggering a reader error, or do I have to rely on the features list? 00:19:11 (when (find-package :package-to-use) (package-to-use:method-to-call)) 00:19:29 joekarma: the usual trick is (funcall (read-from-string ...) ...) or similar 00:20:04 cheers, thanks xach 00:21:51 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-132-136-34.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:32 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-12-73-182.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 00:25:06 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-132-136-34.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:26:32 -!- cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:27:55 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-104-113.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:19 snearch [~snearch@g225149031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:36:05 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:42:36 -!- lavois [~quassel@cpe-075-189-234-187.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:01 I couldn't, say, modify the symbol reader to bolt on a syntax which uses semi-colons in the place of colons, could I? If it's possible I'm thinking of using this alternative syntax to access symbols within packages in a way that fails silently if a package doesn't exist, perhaps returning two values -- one would be the value of the symbol, and the other would indicate whether a value actually exists 00:46:11 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:11 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:46:11 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:46:14 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:35 i don't think you could switch it to use a semicolon in the position of colons, but you could use an initial reader like #; or whatever 00:46:42 not that I'd recommend using semicolons, since that's a comment. 00:47:17 true, that'd wreak havoc with my indentation 00:47:40 oh, and reader macros can return at most one value. 00:47:51 I would not recommend modifying the reader for that at all. 00:49:15 I guess I could have the reader macro transform into a function which does something like xach suggested though 00:49:22 what is it that you are trying to do exactly? 00:49:43 something like (when (hunchentoot-is-loaded-p) (do-something-with-hunchentoot)) 00:50:03 I guess I could just load a special file which does stuff with hunchentoot depending on the result of hunchentoot-is-loaded-p 00:52:03 the thing that started this train of questions for me is that I wanted to have some css transformed, maybe, based on what's in hunchentoot's *request* variable 00:53:18 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:53:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:53:21 the logic for this would live in a css generating library which doesn't necessarily rely on hunchentoot, but if it is loaded, and if *request* is bound, I figured I could have it transform some css to take into account the user agent 00:54:33 ok ... so what you want is systems, methods, classes etc, not to play with the reader. 00:54:44 or, for that matter : 00:55:10 (defun symbol-apply (symbol &key (package *package*) (args NIL)) 00:55:20 (ignore-errors (apply (find-symbol (symbol-name symbol) package) args))) 00:55:43 oh, I think cl-irc has something like that too. 00:56:18 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:56:55 but, really, I would recommend defining things is such a way so that is not needed ... 00:57:05 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 00:58:08 that could work... I'll just create a symbol-access function to pair that with 00:58:16 oh yeah, dynfound-funcall. 00:59:05 (asdf:load-system :my-system-hunchentoot) 01:00:03 (defvar *css-transformers* (list 'transform-css)) 01:00:28 dynfound-funcall looks pretty solid... 01:01:04 -!- gridaphobe [~user@128.54.46.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:01:30 (pushnew 'my-system-hunchentoot:css-tran *css-transformers*) 01:08:06 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 01:08:44 (let ((css "")) (dolist (f *css-transformers*) (setf i (funcall f i))) (print i)) 01:11:54 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:15:42 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225149031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:18:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483918A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:21:11 ams: No the colours don't have any meaning on the symbol list I made. They are just distinguishable enough to not have to repeat some six-seven colours. The hues are actually taken from Derwent Artist 36 piece pencil set... Which I found to be missing when I tried find it. Ouch... :-) 01:21:34 ....tried to find it. 01:24:15 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:29:16 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:37:17 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 01:38:04 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:27 further to the whole symbol fetching in potentially non-existent packages thing, here's what I came up with: https://gist.github.com/3956492 01:45:31 let me know what you guys think 01:46:24 use like (symlook hunchentoot *acceptor*) or (symcall hunchentoot escape-for-html "hello world") 01:46:38 in the latter case it will generate an error at runtime if the function does not exist 01:48:13 er, what's symbol-value for? 01:48:17 now, ideally I'd have reader macros for these functions, but I don't know what syntax would be good now that my foo;;bar or hunchentoot;;*acceptor* idea has been kiboshed 01:49:02 joekarma: need to change '(nil nil) to (list nil nil), setf of literal lists can introduce nasal demons 01:49:20 Bike: symbol-lookup is called either to lookup a symbol value or a function. I built in that keyword argument to take this into consideration 01:49:29 Vivitron: thanks 01:49:41 Vivitron: well the list isn't actually altered. 01:50:11 joekarma: so you meant «(funcall test symbol)» to be «(funcall test symbol-value)»? 01:50:44 Bike: ah, your right. 01:51:46 Bike: I'm not sure if that's what I meant... I think I may be confusing matters by my choice to overwrite symbol with the result of (find-symbol (symbol-name symbol) package) 01:52:23 it seems to be working based on some ad-hoc tests... symlook uses the #'symbol-value test, symcall uses the #'symbol-function test 01:52:33 joekarma: I mean, you don't actually use the value of symbol-value at any point, near as I can see. 01:53:04 ah, I see, good catch 01:53:37 this is a good reason to use let and so on rather than setf. 01:53:54 I had it that way at first but the nesting got ridiculous... 01:55:24 ...updated based on comments... 01:55:47 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:05 should probably change the name of symbol-value to something else.... value-of-symbol, maybe? 01:57:21 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:37 okay, renamed some variables. what do you think? https://gist.github.com/3956492 01:59:38 (defun symbol-lookup (pack sym) (let ((pack (find-package pack)) (sym (string sym))) (when pack (find-symbol sym pack)))) is how I'd do that, and then symlook is just (symbol-value (symbol-lookup :alexandria 'ensure-symbol)). or something like that 01:59:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.140.140] has joined #lisp 01:59:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.140.140] has quit [Changing host] 01:59:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:00:32 well, no, you'd have to do (when (boundp ...)) and so on I guess 02:03:45 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:03:54 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:12:28 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:04 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:13:29 Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 02:14:10 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:16:48 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-78-21.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:14 -!- spiderweb [~spiderweb@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:18:54 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 02:19:25 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:22:39 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-68-8.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:24:33 spiderweb [~spiderweb@174-28-180-177.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:18 is there a way to dynamically bind special variables, based on an alist, for example? 02:25:26 progv? 02:27:26 thanks! 02:34:44 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:36:12 gridaphobe [~user@cpe-66-91-253-127.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:13 anyhow, I've decided take the SYMCALL and SYMLOOK functions and run with them. thanks BIke, Xach, and drewc 02:38:37 -!- spiderweb [~spiderweb@174-28-180-177.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:38:37 spiderweb [~spiderweb@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 02:42:35 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:43:24 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:39 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 02:55:14 -!- paul0` is now known as paul0 02:57:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:58:56 jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-188.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:59:20 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:00 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-93-168.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:01:00 -!- jcazevedo_ is now known as jcazevedo 03:01:04 teggi [~teggi@113.172.61.4] has joined #lisp 03:02:34 -!- benny [~user@i577A31A2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:11:22 doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:42 -!- doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:22 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 03:26:05 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:29:30 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 benny [~user@i577A108B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:31:11 -!- axs [axs@otaku.sdf.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:31:23 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:52:34 -!- paul0 [~user@200.146.124.98.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:57:55 paul0 [~user@200.146.124.98.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:09:57 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 04:10:18 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:16:38 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:51 -!- paul0 [~user@200.146.124.98.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:17:22 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:00 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:21:39 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 04:21:40 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 04:24:15 Rakko [~rakko@71-90-72-104.dhcp.ftbg.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:29:26 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:35:34 mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has joined #lisp 04:36:02 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 04:36:04 _Practical Common Lisp_ says "5 The phrase for-side-effect is used in the language standard, but recycling is my own invention ..." 04:36:36 I don't see "for-side-effect" in the HyperSpec. Does anyone know if it uses that term? 04:36:59 Or otherwise how the HyperSpec refers to nondistructive vs. the various kinds of destructive 04:38:04 «delete, when sequence is a list, is permitted to setf any part, car or cdr, of the top-level list structure in that sequence» «sort and stable-sort destructively sort sequences» 04:39:06 Rakko: "destructive" is the usual keyword I've seen. 04:39:27 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:39:27 paul0 [~user@200.146.124.98.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:39:43 yeah, that's what PCL says too 04:40:14 thanks, Bike... so I guess it doesn't use specific jargon 04:40:27 I've also seen 'non-consing'. 04:40:39 I don't think it's in the glossary or anything, no. 04:40:40 yeah. that's what PCL calls "recycling" 04:40:44 (not in the standard, I think. Here." 04:40:59 s/"/)/ 04:41:39 oh, there is "destructive" in the glossary. 04:42:40 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Changing host] 04:42:40 Tanami [~carnage@unaffiliated/tanami] has joined #lisp 04:43:53 yeah 04:44:14 I was surprised about the subtypes of destructiveness, coming from ruby 04:44:29 What do you mean? 04:45:05 In Ruby there are destructive vs. non-destructive methods, but if you use a destructive one, you can be pretty confident that the object ends up in a consistent state afterwards 04:45:19 you don't have to assign the return value to the variable 04:45:34 oh, so it's more like "in-place" 04:45:48 lisp has operations not like that because of all the linked lists, probably. 04:45:54 yes 04:50:55 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:38 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:07 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: 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[~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:39 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 07:30:36 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 07:31:08 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 07:32:32 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:57 xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has joined #lisp 07:37:18 (let ((a '(1 2 3))) (rotatef (car a) (nth 2 a)) (list a (car a))) => ((3 2 1) 1) --- I'm confused. Why? 07:37:32 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:38:25 modifying literal data is a cardinal sin 07:38:48 Well. What should I do in this case? 07:39:04 (i.e. I want to swap two things in a list) 07:39:05 (let ((a (list 1 2 3))) (rotatef (car a) (nth 2 a)) (list a (car a))) => ((3 2 1) 3) 07:39:20 Oops. 07:40:52 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:41:27 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:42:53 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:36 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:19 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:47:06 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:03 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:51:42 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-jbgwnspsteznaofq] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:52 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 07:54:19 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 07:55:12 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:31 hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 07:57:49 circle [~circle@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:58:15 What is the correct term for the lisp environment? It seems to be both compiler and interactive shell and debugger and everything in one. How should it be called? 07:58:26 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:32 -!- xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has left #lisp 07:58:58 'implementation' is common 07:59:31 Which is better, Lisp or Haskell? What are the applications of each>? 07:59:33 lisp development environment, probably 07:59:49 circle: you came here and expect the answer to be haskell? 08:00:21 circle: also, "better" for what and for whom? 08:00:26 jdz: I asked the question in #haskell as well, just like to get some perspectives. 08:00:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:00:38 jdz: For your second question, you might take a look at the second part of my question. 08:02:54 AeroNotix [~xeno@aclf117.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:03:43 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 08:03:55 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 08:04:08 Hi all - I have written a binarytree in various languages and I am very impressed with SBCL's performance, however, I notice that it uses a *constant* and *large* amount. Which leads me to believe (since it is constant) that it is pre-emptively allocating memory, could this be the case? 08:04:20 large amount *of memory 08:04:42 https://gist.github.com/3954799 <- stats 08:05:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-95.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:08 What sort of problems is Lisp good for working with on? 08:06:40 circle: "Please dont assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list" -- Kent Pitman 08:07:02 jdz: nice quote 08:07:04 How would Lisp compare to things like Haskell and Python for AI? 08:07:14 circle: favourably 08:07:25 jdz: What makes it better? 08:07:31 circle: people 08:07:36 circle: Lisp has a macro system and it's S-exprs are just 'data' so you can mess around with the AST at runtime 08:07:57 For genetic algorithms yes, but does its functionality for AI extend beyond that? 08:08:13 not sure 08:08:24 but AI is generally the 'most' genetic algorithm, right? 08:08:49 Our brain isn't a genetic algorithm, although its algorithms have developed as a result of genetic algorithms. 08:08:59 circle: common lisp is just a programming language. programming languages are tools, used by people. some people are more comfortable with one programming language than other. 08:09:18 circle: people will usually be more productive with tools they are familiar with than with other tools 08:09:20 jdz: (inf jdz) 08:09:23 incf 08:09:43 jdz: Sure. 08:10:13 just look at what crazy awesome stuff people have written in C and C++ 08:11:22 Well, yeah, that doesn't mean there aren't the best tools for certain jobs. 08:11:58 circle: do you have a project in mind or are you just trying to educate yourself? 08:12:30 AeroNotix: Well, I know a couple of languages, and am interested in a few things like AI, so would be interested in learning a language that would be best for that. 08:12:51 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 08:13:14 circle: what is AI? 08:13:45 circle: define some criteria a language should satisfy for it to be best, and we will gladly tell you if lisp fits. 08:13:45 circle: imho, pretty much any high level language is suited for that. I think you should do your choice on other aspects 08:13:48 Lisp and Haskell both looked interesting, I didn't really see any others that were interesting. I like the brevity and conciseness of both languages. 08:14:23 learn both of the languages 08:14:30 Perhaps. 08:14:46 if you're new to lisp and haskell, they are kind of languages that will teach you news concepts and ideas 08:15:15 the unfortunate thing is that Haskell is quite popular now (over lisp) 08:15:41 Hi all - I have written a binarytree in various languages and I am very impressed with SBCL's performance, however, I notice that it uses a *constant* and *large* amount of memory. Which leads me to believe (since it is constant) that it is pre-emptively allocating memory, could this be the case? 08:16:36 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:56 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:20:41 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:46 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 08:27:00 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 08:32:07 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 08:33:31 AeroNotix: On GNU, glibc and linux both prealloc memory... so malloc(123) allocates some nice round number like 4096 or whatever ... 08:33:43 AeroNotix: Also the malloc implementations tend to work in buckets 08:33:59 circle: As somebody now trying to learn lisp and coming with haskell background, I would say that the biggest difference is that haskell is as pure as you can get a functional language. Lisp on the other hand is allowing side effects anywhere and you are not forced to do functional programming. (This from somebody new to lisp) 08:34:35 ams: is there any way to tweak this? --dynamic-space-size doesn't *seem* to do anything? 08:35:00 AeroNotix: the other thing is that lisps always allocate a heap of some sort where they do their gc and stuff... 08:35:24 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:55 ams: ok - I will try and tweak my algorithm (it's a recursive binary tree) and see if *not* using the stack works better. 08:36:10 the speed is unbelievable, though. 08:36:26 it's comparable to a C/Python wrapper 08:36:28 AeroNotix: many lisps tend to not do tail recursion (don't know about sbcl of hand) 08:36:39 ams: https://gist.github.com/3954799 08:36:44 ams: sbcl does tco 08:36:48 ams: it seems clisp doesn't 08:37:03 how are you measuring sbcl's memory use? 08:37:23 Krystof: thanks, was about to ask that :-) 08:37:26 Krystof: time -f "%M" sbcl --load file.lisp 08:37:31 ams: time -f "%M" sbcl --load file.lisp 08:39:19 and is that a measurement that you actually care about? 08:39:35 but anyway, remeber sbcl loads a shit load of stuff... 08:40:06 like sbcl.core tends to be around 30M 08:40:06 Krystof: I'm just comparing different languages, I try to optimize as best I can before saying "this is the result" 08:40:15 Krystof: I don't want people to call me out for being bias 08:40:18 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40:35 ams: ok, so I will make a non-recursive version and try again 08:40:48 AeroNotix: won't help much, sbcl loads the whole environ 08:41:00 well, OK. I can't be excited about your comparison, whether you are biased or not 08:41:05 so I'll let you get on 08:41:06 C and such has a small over head 08:41:16 ams: I meant I was going to make it non-recursive and test with other implementations 08:41:19 i.e. Clisp 08:41:24 Krystof: what do you mean? 08:41:31 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 08:41:48 AeroNotix: won't matter much on memory usage 08:41:55 ams: drats 08:42:03 AeroNotix: both clisp and sbcl load a 30M core file into memory. 08:42:14 ok 08:42:26 AeroNotix: if you want to reduce memory footprint, you'd need to do a tree shake on your program, dump that, and load the resulting world instead 08:42:27 fiveop [~fiveop@vpn8.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:42:50 bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:42:51 *AeroNotix* googles tree shake 08:43:08 AeroNotix: alas, there are no usable tree shakers :-) 08:43:27 http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html 08:43:33 to have a nice comparison on core size 08:44:25 Well, ok. Despite the memory use being a lot. I'm impressed that it's *constant*, which gives me the impression that lisp is more 'deterministic' than the other languages I'm using. 08:44:36 Java/Go have memory stats all over the shop 08:45:23 AeroNotix: as i said, it loads core, core is constant. 08:45:42 ams: it's running at 250mb+ 08:46:06 AeroNotix: right, and? you have a heap allocated and stuff, your program prolly isn't consing alot or whatever 08:46:37 ams: I'm not complaining about it, I'm just questioning it as a source of inefficiencies in my code. 08:46:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:53 without looking at your code, i cannot answer. 08:47:05 ams: https://github.com/AeroNotix/algostructure/blob/master/Common%20Lisp/binarytree.lisp 08:47:12 if it conses little, it's not that bad 08:47:25 I'm not a lisp-guru 08:47:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.140.140] has joined #lisp 08:47:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.140.140] has quit [Changing host] 08:47:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:47:43 then you shouldn't be doing comparisons between C and lisp. 08:47:44 :-) 08:47:52 ams: which is why I am here to learn :) 08:48:57 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:05 well, that code is horrible... sorry... 08:49:16 (heck, it will crash my lisp) 08:49:16 ams: i thought as much. I've translated it from C 08:49:23 ams: it will crash CLisp 08:49:25 AeroNotix: it is horrible C code. 08:49:52 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:49:57 I'm no longer using recursion in the C version, though. Which is what I think you're getting at. 08:50:12 AeroNotix: it will crash my sbcl as well 08:50:20 ams: doesn't crash mine? 08:51:02 debugger invoked on a SB-KERNEL::CONTROL-STACK-EXHAUSTED in thread 08:51:16 hmm 08:51:19 :-) 08:51:20 told yah! 08:51:24 I believed you 08:51:30 I'm just curious as to why it works here 08:51:43 i'm special. 08:51:47 could you explain why that code is 'horrible' ? 08:52:01 I want to re-write to remove the recursion, that's step 1 08:53:21 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:54:09 bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:56:10 AeroNotix: sb-profile:profile if you wanna have fun 08:56:17 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-188.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:56:37 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 08:56:58 ams: so I load my file into sbcl and then run that? 08:57:07 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 08:57:47 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:58:57 AeroNotix: i suggest you peek at the manual 08:59:22 ams: already on it 09:00:52 AeroNotix: is your code measuring the speed of random number generator per chance? 09:00:58 basically, in main, add something like, (sb-profile:reset) (sb-profile:profile ....) (sb-profile:report) 09:01:30 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 09:01:47 though i would rewrite it first into a loop ... 09:01:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:02:08 then add some declares and stuff .. 09:02:42 ams: right - I was looking at how to write it in a loop but I think I need to read a bit more on Lisp. I'm reading through PCL. 09:02:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.140.140] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.140.140] has quit [Changing host] 09:02:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:03:02 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:03:17 bitonic` [~user@laptop9-195.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:03:54 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 09:04:09 AeroNotix: the first thing I'd do is not use CLOS for code that does not need it. 09:04:09 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:34 that too hehe, didn't even think about it :-) 09:04:36 Ralith: so how would you suggest writing this datastructure? 09:04:48 AeroNotix: defstruct, lists, array, hash, .. 09:04:53 ^ 09:05:00 well 09:05:05 not sure how you'd use a hash table 09:05:10 Ralith: was thinking that.... 09:05:32 but basically there are a lot of viable options and all of them are more appropriate than CLOS for this task 09:06:26 Ralith: awesome - like I said, I'm still learning and I'm mostly just translating my other language(s) concepts to Lisp 09:06:38 i.e. objects as the core unit 09:06:59 AeroNotix: while it is a nice exercise, it doesn't really teach you anything 09:07:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:07:14 how i'd write a tree in C and how i'd do it in lisp are totally different 09:07:30 ams: true - I just don't have enough experience with Lisp to know the 'idiomatic' way 09:07:44 (which is kind of why I am here asking) 09:08:17 right, which is why i'm saying that translating one datastructure as is to lisp to different languages teaches you nothing 09:08:37 in lisp i normally never care about the datastructure 09:08:39 C doesn't have an object system, so choosing CL's object system for a straight translation of C code is strange. 09:08:52 Ralith: i'm saying C when I really mean C++ 09:08:59 those are very different languages. 09:09:01 indeed 09:09:02 indeed 09:09:20 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 09:10:17 anyway, in C++ it's common to use classes for everything, but in CL one generally only uses the OOP infrastructure for things which it will simplify, rather than make more complex. 09:11:11 and usually you start from the top ... the binary tree stuff comes last 09:11:36 i wanna store object; i don't give a !@#$ how it is stored :-) 09:11:47 *Ralith* would pull a stock impl off quicklisp and not even look at its internals unless profiling demanded it 09:12:02 Ralith: ahhh you've misunderstood my objective 09:12:09 do I? 09:12:09 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 09:12:16 my objective IS to look at different implementations and their profiles 09:12:24 across a range of languages 09:12:25 AeroNotix: you wanted to know what is the idiomatic approach to programming lsp; data structures come last 09:12:36 ams: that's very interesting to know, thanks for that. 09:12:37 that doesn't sound like an objective, that sounds like an approach to another objective 09:12:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:12:57 AeroNotix: why not just look at language shootouts or something? 09:12:58 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:03 ams: that's less fun ;) 09:13:07 microbenchmarks are boring anyway 09:13:19 is your objective to have fun, then? 09:13:50 Ralith: as well. But also, I just want to know how various languages end up 'feeling' wrt SLOC, Speed, Ease of Use, Ecosystem and FUN 09:14:00 memory 09:14:06 community 09:14:09 etc etc 09:14:25 AeroNotix: alas, you cannot answer any of those, since you have little/no experience in most of the languages you are toying with 09:14:44 indeed, it takes more than a throwaway microbenchmark to address those questions. 09:14:46 ams: how so? I've written enough to say a little about them 09:14:51 Ralith: for sure 09:15:05 AeroNotix: for one, in C or c++ you would _never_ use recursion for this 09:15:15 AeroNotix: so that is not an idiomatic way of writting binary trees in C 09:15:25 ams: no, but I am re-writing them. 09:15:39 a recursive tree has a more 'interesting' implementation 09:15:42 for me, at least 09:15:42 ams: well, I don't know about that 09:16:00 my expectation of a C compiler providing TCO is about the same as my expectation of a CL compiler doing so 09:16:03 Ralith: for any real world usage, it is true. 09:16:11 Ralith: he's right 09:16:22 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 09:16:27 A binary tree is 'idiomatically' represented recursively, though. 09:16:34 perhaps I should clarify: I don't know that it's any better an idea to use recursion for it in CL. 09:16:36 It's just unfortunate that this isn't generally efficient 09:16:57 Ralith: well, I was under the impression languages like lisp handle recursion better. 09:17:01 I know now this is false 09:17:04 AeroNotix: it is, but C doesn't specify if one does tco or not, or if you havestack to begin with 09:17:13 ams: re: my experience. I have enough to have an opinion. 09:17:22 :) 09:17:22 AeroNotix: CL doesn't specify if a compiler should TCO or not 09:17:30 AeroNotix: in other words, you're a newbie :-) 09:17:49 ams: I wouldn't say noobie 09:18:12 "anyway, in C++ it's common to use classes for everything" .... thats why we have C/C++ aswell, where you have all the features of c++ available and only use what you need... 09:18:23 i would though... since only newbies have enough experience (i.e. none) to have an opinion, an experienced hacker will kinow that it "depends" 09:18:53 ams: true - but there are generally things you can lean towards when in doubt 09:19:22 doomlord: not sure of your point, could you rephrase? 09:20:07 ams: do you have a github account? 09:20:32 Someone said C and C++ are very different aswell. yet, you can use C++ many different ways. anything between (the common subsset of C & C++) and (idiomatic C++). 09:21:00 doomlord: aha yes, I see your point. It's true that all C programs are C++ programs, but not the other way round. 09:21:02 you can have all C++ great features like templates available, and not over-use classes 09:21:19 answer_421 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 09:21:32 a gold brick and a rock are very different things, but you can hit someone upside the head with either. 09:21:33 strictly speaking its not true. but near enough true for me to just say "c/C++"even though C++ purists hate it 09:21:54 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:22:01 doomlord: I'm meaning that you could write a C program, compile it with both GCC and G++ 09:22:06 whereas the opposite is not true 09:22:07 not always 09:22:10 AeroNotix: that is false. 09:22:13 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:18 C++ is not a superset of C. 09:22:25 no thats not even true - but there is enough of a common subset that practically you can say you can 09:22:33 doomlord: indeed 09:22:35 you can restrict your C to the common subset 09:22:49 so which C features won't compile in G++? 09:22:52 and this is why I like to use the term C/C++ 09:23:29 struct Foo * p = malloc(sizeof(Foo)) wont compile in c++ but will compile in C, i think 09:23:46 but i'd do that with a #define and always cast it.. 09:24:35 there's little extentions like __restrict that might have been in different compilers but not the standard 09:25:00 __restrict was always available in c++ where i was using it, but supposedly its C99, not C++ .. 09:25:30 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:26:44 doomlord: with your example - is it 'regular' to not cast a malloc() call? 09:27:13 C is looser in a few places i think.one would cast the malloc call out of good habit 09:27:16 i.e. isn't struct Food * p = (Foo*) malloc(sizeof(struct Foo)) better? 09:27:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:27:40 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:41 but yeah, your example doesn't compile in G++ 09:27:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-31.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 09:27:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-31.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:27:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:27:51 GCC always had "typeof" which you could leverage ... e.g. #define LET(var, exp) typeof(exp) var = exp; // predates c++ auto by many years 09:27:55 complains about the implicit conversion between void* and Foo* 09:28:13 interesting 09:28:31 anyone sane will write #define MALLOC(S,N) (S*) malloc(sizeof(S)*N) ... 09:28:45 aha, that's an awesome idea 09:28:59 and anyone insane will whine that macros are evil 09:29:15 it depends, I see people using macros for constants (in C++) 09:29:23 that's evil 09:29:43 macros let you do all sorts of tricks that the core language still hasn't caught up with. 09:30:04 my interest in lisp is mainly due to the macro system , being what i've always wanteed from C :) 09:30:05 indeed, I think half of C++11 on MSVC is implemented with macros 09:30:32 doomlord: oh yeah, reading through PCL at the effortless macros Seibel writes is just excellent 09:30:54 i'm a heavy macro+template user in C/C++ 09:31:05 doomlord: I like templates 09:31:32 macros I tend that I don't use too much, but I'm a library user rather than a library writer (wrt C++) 09:31:33 yes they are the best bit of C++. the worst bit is the class system 09:31:52 I take it you haven't used java.... 09:31:55 : 09:31:57 :P 09:32:05 class heirarchies are retarded, and un-necassery decision on member vs free function is retarded 09:32:08 go gets it right 09:32:12 doomlord: YES 09:32:15 doomlord: I love Go 09:32:27 doomlord: it's like.. the perfect logical extension of C 09:32:33 go vindicates all the bitter arguments i;ve had with people over C++ style. 09:32:48 yes, I really enjoy the language. 09:32:54 doomlord: what are you writing in Go? 09:32:59 i.e. where are you using it? 09:33:01 nothing 09:33:10 i'm dabling with different languages 09:33:25 Go is my main language at work with Python and C++ after it 09:33:31 SO much fun 09:33:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-168.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:34:57 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:38:47 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-226-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:40:50 lucky you :) 09:41:32 sure am 09:45:15 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:45:37 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:30 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:46:42 i've only written serious code in c++, i've just been dabling with other things a little trying to settle on something to learn properly 09:47:28 i can hardly decide , there's things i love about haskell (type inference) but lisp macros are a big draw, i've greatly enjoyed trying clojure but am a bit put off by JVM 09:47:50 doomlord: I recommend Go, for me, it has the expressiveness of Python but with similar performance characteristics as Java. 09:48:07 also, binaries rock 09:48:16 doomlord: I'm impressed, C++ people who're willing to try other things seem rare 09:48:19 (but if you're a c++ guy you know that) 09:48:26 mstevens: haha, indeed. 09:48:33 mstevens: java drones are worse 09:48:37 mstevens, thing is ... i haven't settled on anything else :) 09:48:38 AeroNotix: I think C++ is worse 09:48:47 i just know c++ has some very broken features . 09:48:56 AeroNotix: there's something about the trauma of learning it that convinces you you need it forever 09:49:16 i really wish there was a fixed c++ by which i mean classes like go, tuples, context-free gramar, reflection, but no GC runtime 09:49:46 it seems like if you want a GC runtime you have great choice in languages, but if you dont, you're stuck with C++ 09:50:02 doomlord: why would you _not_ want a GC? 09:50:17 i'm used to reasoning about memory 09:50:22 RAII is actually quite good providing you follow the rules 09:50:41 (e.g. smart pointers) 09:50:51 doomlord: I used to write a lot of assembly, and I was used to reason about register use. That doesn't mean it's something I want to do these days. 09:50:59 from what i understsand java imposes the type of OO i'm not so keen on 09:51:15 thats kind of different 09:51:23 doomlord: What type of object orientation is that? 09:51:35 loke: CLASSES 09:51:39 CLASSES EVERYWHERE 09:51:40 i mean in java ... everything is in classes and it becomes verbose 09:51:44 aerique: :-) 09:51:50 silly wrapping thigns in accessors allthe time etc 09:52:08 Java is not too bad for the most part, it's the edge cases you run into that really gets you to write some nasty builerplate stuff. 09:52:11 doomlord: I've never understood the purpose of that 09:52:17 doomlord: it's like some primitive ritual 09:52:43 the 'idea' is that you can change the implementation, but how often do you REALLY do that 09:52:52 I do prefer it, thoughuj 09:53:04 mstevens: Arguably, if you write accessors for everything, you have a bad system design. That said, Java programmers like to be able to look at code and see what happens with very little context. 09:53:34 AeroNotix: that's the idea, but a) you never do, b) if you ever want to, 99 out of 100 times you can rightclick, select "encapsulate field", and let your IDE sort everything out for you 09:53:46 hah in c++ i dont thinkso.. 09:53:51 java maybe 09:54:12 doomlord: yeah I was talking about java 09:54:30 mstevens: That's true, but in Java, if you want to write a class with a read-only field you need a getter method. Making it a public feald makes it read/write. 09:54:35 i find c++ makes header files worse 09:54:51 loke: I'm a bit out of practice, but can't you make things final? 09:55:15 mstevens: You can, kinda. The field will be final even for the class implementation itself. 09:55:17 thats a big gripe of mine, in C you can minimize what you put in the header, whereas in c++ you tend to have to expose more internals unless you use un-necasery virtuals / PIMPL 09:55:40 mstevens: Usually for read-only fields you want the class methods to be able to modify, but have to external updates to the field. 09:55:45 loke: and again, okay you might want accessor methods *in that scenario*, but why does that mean you have to use them in the general case where that doesn't apply? 09:56:49 mstevens: Well, the argument is that it's actually very rare that you want to directly access a field in a class instance. This is really only true for container classes (something like class Pair { X car; Y cdr; }) 09:57:04 i'll probably end up sticking with C++ out of indecision on another main language 09:57:15 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:15 doomlord: do you code in a team or on your own/ 09:57:16 ? 09:57:19 mstevens: now, these days, people would generally be OK with having such fields as public. They are, after all, nothing more than a fancy struct. 09:57:24 i have coded in teams yes 09:57:27 loke: I find it's the most common case 09:57:29 doomlord: but right now? 09:57:31 on my own at the minute 09:57:37 I find in teams, stick to C++/Java 09:57:42 i think c++ is terrible for teamwork 09:57:44 but on my own, it's a playgoround :D 09:57:45 mstevens: Well, it shouldn't be. 09:57:50 loke: that's a separate argument 09:57:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:58:05 its the experience of c++ team coding that makes me think its time to find somethign new lol 09:58:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:20 i have much more faith in the way go works for a team environmnet 09:59:15 The way Java has the ability to enforce a certain style and has the ability to give the architect a greater control over how the components are built and work together makes it very good for large teams. 09:59:27 heh. i might even say the opposite C++ is fine when working on your own. its a team environment where it breaks down horribly 09:59:32 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 10:01:05 doomlord: Go is quite good for team work, it has IDE support, good unit testing, static, very few pieces of UB and the stdlib is brain dead simple. 10:01:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:01:34 i have to admit i've enjoyed clojure more than CL, but it seems to be a dirty word here 10:02:04 i could look at Go but it might be like chickening out of a switch to FP and thinking diffrerently to c++ 10:02:14 doomlord: haha, I feel that 10:02:41 doomlord: you can emulate some of the benefits of FP if you stick to using channels as if they were transferring state 10:03:28 as channels are shared state 10:03:47 but you can 'pretend' 10:03:58 the other thing about lisps is they can be embedded in c/c++, which is a bridge for my comfort zone 10:04:00 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:04:16 that's cool 10:05:24 the PCL book... the unit test macros in lisp.. i like that sort of thing, and the ability to generate boilerplate code from a schema 10:05:40 (eg declaring datastructures then build UI, serialization automatically) 10:05:43 doomlord: ah yes, that unit testing stuff when I read it kind of blew my mind 10:05:55 all the things one has to hack with x-macros in c/c++ 10:07:50 clojure has a lot of tweaks i like. collections work like functions for element access;and threading macro (pass a value along a sequence) out of the box, and the destructuring of arguments is awesome 10:08:22 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-132-136-34.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:08:39 and the literal maps & vectors make throwing adhoc datastructures around really easy 10:08:43 MoALTz [~no@host86-132-136-34.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:08:57 doomlord: yeah, for me I really like the very subtle syntactic differences 10:09:10 doomlord: (defun name [args]) is such a simple improvement 10:09:12 little bits of cleanup allover the place i think 10:09:18 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 10:09:35 let being like let* and saving some parens 10:10:05 map instead of mapcar .. 10:10:05 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@vpn8.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:10:23 now if only it could do type-inference as well as haskell 10:10:39 heh 10:10:54 fiveop [~fiveop@vpn8.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:54 -!- sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:12 damn you've distracted me now, tempted to look into go... 10:14:01 go looks pretty cool 10:14:29 mstevens: it is 10:14:43 mstevens: concurrency as a core piece of syntax == win 10:15:13 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:30 i'm guessing go will be faster than lisps 10:16:44 doomlord: actually no 10:16:57 doomlord: with my limited testing SBCL has been faster 10:17:01 doomlord: but that's quite limited 10:17:38 doomlord: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=go 10:18:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:18:38 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:19:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:20:20 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 10:22:02 urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-126.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:16 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:24:50 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:57 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:28:14 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B3F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:13 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:28 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 10:31:19 AeroNotix: no, I do not use github 10:31:33 AeroNotix: i don't have time for silly thingies like that 10:32:21 AeroNotix: And what doomlord lord said is _wrong_ 10:32:32 AeroNotix: C programs are not a strict subset of C++. 10:32:38 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@vpn8.hotsplots.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 10:33:09 sorry, it was you who said it.. 10:33:13 11:21 doomlord: aha yes, I see your point. It's true that all C programs are C++ programs, but not the other way round. 10:33:19 this is simply _not_ true 10:33:23 ok 10:33:30 -!- answer_421 is now known as answer_42 10:33:30 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.61.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:33:37 here is a small example: sizeof('a') 10:34:10 another one: int *x = malloc(sizeof(int)) 10:34:41 and there are endless more such examples 10:34:50 specially when one takes into account C99 and C11 10:35:01 ok 10:36:16 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-68-82.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:37:00 -!- bitonic [~user@laptop9-195.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:37:35 also, __restrict is not a keyword in C; never was. 10:37:49 casting is not required for malloc in C. 10:38:44 malloc is in C? 10:38:53 i thought it's in library 10:38:55 jdz: of course. 10:39:00 It's part of the C stadnard 10:39:12 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 10:39:15 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:39:16 jdz: malloc is part of the C standard, and part of any non-free standing implementation. 10:39:18 ams: I was saying that it's just good practice to cast the malloc, though 10:39:24 AeroNotix: No, it isn't. 10:39:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:39:34 AeroNotix: It's not good practice to do it 10:39:35 ams: ok - just what I've been reading, I rarely code straight C 10:39:35 it is terible practise 10:39:39 probably that's the reason why i'm in #lisp, not #c 10:39:46 why is it terrible practice? 10:39:50 AeroNotix: Not hides errors, and never gives any benefit 10:40:05 or am i? 10:40:07 ^^ 10:40:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:40:10 jdz: :-) 10:40:31 AeroNotix: http://c-faq.com/malloc/mallocnocast.html 10:40:35 jdz: sorry, just pointing out some totally bogus claims made 10:41:01 doomlord: there is little point in minimizing stuff in header files, they get trimmed anyway. 10:41:41 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 10:42:23 anyway, i think i'm done ... having programmed C for 20+ years makes you annoyed that such simple things are not learnt by programmers today 10:42:46 ams: I hear ya 10:42:49 sometimes i think people must be required to write afully standard compliant compiler for C before they are allowed near any code base 10:43:00 ams: that's ridiculous 10:43:05 AeroNotix: no, it isn't. 10:43:07 any Codebase or any C Codebase? 10:43:08 AeroNotix: nor is it hard 10:43:17 ams: links to your compiler? 10:43:23 AeroNotix: ~/cc 10:43:42 I mean, is yours available? 10:43:45 online? 10:43:49 no 10:43:56 Are you allowed near a codebase? 10:44:23 AeroNotix: darling, i maintain program run on bazillions of machines :-) 10:44:33 Which one is that? 10:44:39 AeroNotix: you can try doing a whois on me 10:45:01 I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested 10:45:16 AeroNotix: :-) http://planet.gnu.org/~ams/ 10:45:45 -!- circle [~circle@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:46:07 circle [~circle@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:46:20 AeroNotix: i maintain parts of gdb, supposedly as well... which is quite weird. 10:46:56 gdb has saved my arse many a time 10:47:09 so you're an inetutils maintainer? 10:47:32 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.83] has joined #lisp 10:49:11 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49:24 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:49:55 fiveop [~fiveop@37-4-120-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:03 AeroNotix: oui 10:50:20 main one these days since simon nor sergey have time ... and jeff stepped down 10:50:36 and some other stuff as well 10:50:41 ams: may I ask how old you are? 10:50:50 AeroNotix: 32 10:50:56 ams: aha 10:51:45 ams: so any recommendations for reading material? 10:52:56 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 AeroNotix: i've maintained inetutils for 10 years, been hacking since i was 6-7, learnt c when i was 8-9ish from faded a dot matrix printed copy of the c reference manual from 1978 or whatever , and got my dirty hands on a lisp1.5 manual and mccarthy's essay when i was 10-11 which changed my life more than i would like to admit. 10:53:04 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.112.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:53:36 "learnt" C at 9, what does that entail? 10:53:40 what happened here: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-inetutils/2008-09/msg00016.html 10:53:52 ams damn you. I didn't start until I was 11 10:53:53 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.112.42] has joined #lisp 10:53:54 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:57 back in.. um. 1984 10:53:58 AeroNotix: i wrote a compiler. 10:54:05 ams: at 9? 10:54:09 AeroNotix: yea 10:54:15 ams: interesting... 10:54:22 still the same code base in my current compiler which conforms to c11 10:54:40 but it's not public domain? 10:55:18 AeroNotix: what happened there was deberashi thought he was co maintainer, which he wasn't, and some flames ensued. 10:55:34 AeroNotix: was one of those "my code is my code, you canot touch it or rewrite it" situations. 10:55:45 AeroNotix: we are still good friends by the way 10:55:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56:01 ams: just interesting to find on google, AMS+inetutils brings that up as the first result 10:56:06 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:56:14 AeroNotix: strict speaking, it is copyrighted by me under no license. :-) 10:56:30 AeroNotix: it is just a fun thing i habve and update when i have the time 10:56:33 ams: I'm just interested in using a compiler written by a 9yo 10:56:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:57:17 AeroNotix: well, you do realise that this was written in 1989, and has been constantly updated since then? 10:57:22 ams: yep 10:57:34 ams: how complete a compiler was it, in 1989? 10:57:45 AeroNotix: it followed the c reference manual 10:58:15 some copy of http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/cman.pdf 10:58:16 and it ran on? 10:59:11 AeroNotix: ultrix 10:59:39 hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:43 ver i 11:00:12 ams: interesting 11:00:23 AeroNotix: hehe, i still recall trying to port it to vms .. good god... what a stupid shite of an operating system that was ... totally unusable :-) 11:00:30 AeroNotix: had a lot of cool features though .. 11:00:42 ams, AeroNotix: this is way OT 11:00:54 fe[nl]ix: got anything better to talk about? 11:01:19 sorry I was just blindsided by him saying he wrote a compiler at 9 11:01:27 I needed to know more about tht 11:01:40 Still a few more q's if that's ok? 11:01:46 ams: that is irrelevant. this channel is about lisp. 11:01:47 AeroNotix: nothing really spectacular about a compiler... fail to see the amezment. 11:02:02 ams: It's just that, 9, how did you know about stuff like lexing, tokenization etc? 11:02:05 fe[nl]ix: not like you are talking about lisp either 11:02:15 I enjoy silence 11:03:01 -!- yena [~yena@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Quit: yena] 11:03:08 AeroNotix: if you're interested, you can learn at lot at 9 11:03:12 AeroNotix: I didn't; nor was that the hard part. Semantical analysis was really the major problem. 11:03:41 People continue to think that parsing and lexing is what makes a compiler ... it is the most mundane task to achive, and do ... 11:03:44 -!- circle [~circle@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:04:17 circle [~circle@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:04:18 and people who know the internals of compilers continue to trivialize it like the rest of us are morons 11:04:36 sorry.. but that's kind of true 11:04:42 AeroNotix: that's the nature of the beast, not of the compiler writer. 11:04:46 AeroNotix: The parts that are complicated are optimisation, and semantical analysis. Not the parsing and converting tokens into some assembly 11:05:11 now can we head back to lisp? 11:05:17 fine 11:05:54 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:59 is anyone running StumpWM? 11:06:05 AeroNotix: check 11:06:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:06:17 madnificent: is it good? well-supported ? 11:06:21 AeroNotix: Take a simple expression like (+ i 1), this is trivial to convert right? load reference of i, load 1 to register, call add, store result .. 11:06:37 ams: indeed, bu that is trivial. Is C context free? 11:06:40 AeroNotix: complications get when you start optimziing, is the exprssion used or the result? in this case no, so this is nop .. 11:06:47 AeroNotix: it works fine for me. i haven't had any major issues with it in the past few years 11:07:14 ams: surely "is the expression used" is a trivial optimization? 11:07:21 AeroNotix: then you get funky shit like register usage ... that is where things get fun, and how you want to organise the output so that it is nice and pretty for the cpu 11:07:23 AeroNotix: i'm not sure what you're trying to figure out about stump though 11:07:31 madnificent: I just wanted to throw out a token lisp question 11:07:38 ah 11:08:05 can you both go to #C and fight out your talk there? the scrollback is getting useless 11:08:17 we're not fighting, lol 11:08:50 AeroNotix: dead code removal is actually suprisingly hard to do right 11:09:25 I suppose detecting side effects is a pita 11:09:28 (question also is: can you even do it generally? :-) 11:09:42 sigh, i don't give a rats ass. it's not lisp, it doesn't belong here. you're making it extremely hard to read the scrollback and get back to people whom are actually willing to learn lisp. 11:09:56 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 11:10:06 -!- ams [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (ams) 11:10:10 ams [ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 what's +o? 11:10:31 if anyone is off-topic, it is you fe[nl]ix. 11:10:50 ams: please stop 11:10:55 AeroNotix: operator 11:11:08 ok - is writing a compiler for Lisp easier than 'other' languages? Due to it already being a kind of AST? 11:11:21 I always suspected that 11:11:24 fe[nl]ix: no, you stop, you are distrubing an normal conversation which is related to lisp, you are on the other hand waving a sledge for no reason at all. 11:11:50 related how ? 11:11:58 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7552f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:08 fe[nl]ix: compiler optimisations are heavily related to lisp 11:12:09 he is clearing up some confusion about some assumptions I had with Lisp 11:12:17 but it needed a detour through C first 11:12:27 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:31 and he mentioned he wrote a compiler, and I derailed our on-topic discussion 11:12:59 fe[nl]ix: go and grab a cold cup of water, and cool down or something, cause you need it. 11:13:13 AeroNotix: writing a parser is easy, and if you have macros the compiler is somewhat easier to write 11:14:01 fe[nl]ix: writing a parser [for lisp] ? 11:14:12 or in general? 11:14:13 AeroNotix: Read SICP, it is fun. 11:14:19 ams: it's on my rader 11:14:20 radar 11:14:24 or .. mm.. 11:14:32 Actually I have the picture as my fb cover thingie 11:14:33 this detour to anything-but-the-topic seems to have become so common in these last few days, that the detours are vastly overshadowing the conversation. it's not complex to stick to the point imho. 11:14:37 i think lisp1.5 had a fun math translator at the end .. 11:14:46 !topic 11:14:50 .topic 11:15:00 help? 11:15:13 Topic for #lisp is "Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language 11:15:53 AeroNotix: yes 11:17:16 I'm off to read PCL 11:17:20 AeroNotix: oh, and welcome to the inner circle of grumpy lispers =) 11:17:38 AeroNotix: this is exactly why the lisp communitty has gott a quite bad rep of being arrogant arses. 11:17:43 well, I'm a bit shocked. Generally I viewed this channel to be a bit more laid back 11:17:57 I'm sure it has it's ups and downs 11:20:35 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:36 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:02 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:05 1 question - previously in here I was told that DEFCLASS shouldn't be the first tool when wanting objects but I should lean towards defstruct and other things. Whereas in PCL (which I believe is a decent text) he introduces DEFCLASS as a sole means and makes out that things like defstruct are outdated. 11:21:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 11:21:47 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 11:22:07 AeroNotix: defstruct is outdated 11:22:12 AeroNotix: defclass is more flexible, defstruct saves you some typing (and can be faster). if you're going for OO, you want defclass (it takes a tad more learning). 11:22:13 my understanding has been that especially in sbcl, defstruct ends up doing the same thing as defclass 11:22:22 AeroNotix: who told you that defclass should be avoided? 11:22:29 guaqua: your understanding is wrong. 11:22:39 okay 11:22:58 not avoided, but just used as the last tool. 11:23:37 AeroNotix: was that paul graham? 11:24:12 H4ns: I don't know who that is 11:24:23 AeroNotix: well anyway, do not avoid clos 11:24:51 H4ns: ok 11:25:10 AeroNotix: that isn't what was said 11:25:17 AeroNotix: many people use defstruct because it is more concise or because they believe that structs are faster. 11:25:28 AeroNotix: what someone said was that clos wasn't the right thing for this specific case. 11:26:35 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-5-121.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:26:37 H4ns: do you know of benchmarks of structs vs classes in different implementations? 11:27:14 AeroNotix: have you read On Lisp? (which is a book written by Paul Graham) 11:27:17 madnificent: no. 11:27:19 mrcarrot` [~user@86-60-145-168-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 11:27:20 madnificent: no 11:27:30 madnificent: I only have PCL 11:29:44 -!- mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:29:54 quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:30:41 AeroNotix: don't be afraid about defclass, it'll become a friend of yours. it's extremely flexible and relatively fast. if performance does become an issue (which is very unlikely), then you can still walk away from it after benchmarking. 11:31:12 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:16 bitonic [~user@laptop90.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:31:52 madnificent: well, I found it very easy to acclimate to the CLOS. It's quite nice. 11:32:04 I don't know the ins and outs, obviously but I wrote some simple classes with it 11:32:04 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:35 use your tools to simplify your code, not complicate it. 11:32:36 quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:38:05 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 11:39:16 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:39:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:44:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:45:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:46:54 common-list.net down? 11:47:37 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 11:48:41 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:30 easye: it would seem so, and Drew is asleep 11:52:54 I assume that the appropriate alerts will jerk his admin chains at a reasonable threshold. 11:56:21 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:40 -!- mrcarrot` is now known as mrcarrot 11:56:45 -!- mrcarrot [~user@86-60-145-168-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has quit [Changing host] 11:56:45 mrcarrot [~user@unaffiliated/mrcarrot] has joined #lisp 11:57:29 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:17 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 11:59:28 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 12:04:46 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.21.161.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 12:07:05 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:38 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:55 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 12:09:11 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:34 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:40 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:15:20 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:17:06 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 12:17:51 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:17:51 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 12:18:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:00 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:40 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-91-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:22:18 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:23:18 ikki [~ikki@189.139.20.55] has joined #lisp 12:25:10 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 12:26:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:44 ferada [~ferada@dslb-146-060-029-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:30:11 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 12:30:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:30:50 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:31:18 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:32:53 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aclf117.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 12:34:23 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:38:26 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:40:15 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 12:40:59 dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has joined #lisp 12:44:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 12:44:28 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:44:30 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:56 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:50 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:49:36 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-25-173.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:50:07 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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Is common-lisp.net unavailable right now? 13:44:11 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:13 gimbal: yep. 13:44:21 I c 13:44:39 gimbal: Y U NO C++?! 13:44:51 bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:45:04 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:45:30 jdz: I no asm cred for the 1337 mov to C++ 13:45:39 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:05 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:46:08 Typing short in a tablet irc client, will have to mind my txtspeak ;) 13:46:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:46:54 sheesh, my brain just melted due to meme/leet/text-speak. 13:47:33 Sorry. I suppose I've become inured to that much of pop culture 13:47:57 gimbal: you could try voice-to-text 13:48:09 it'd be funny for the rest of us, at least 13:48:25 dlowe: I don't have Siri on this tablet ;) 13:49:19 Any ideas when common-lisp.net might be back up? It looks like that's where MKCL's source repository is hosted 13:50:21 when drewc wakes up :) 13:50:35 i'd guess within hours unless something more drastic has happened 13:50:37 and has his coffee. And a shower. 13:50:39 Ok, thanks :) 13:50:48 Maybe he'll walk the dog before checking 13:51:02 A long breakfast at the cafe perhaps 13:51:24 gimbal: the maintainer lives on Pacific time, it's around get-up time now. Give it about 5 hours before you meltdown and throw radioactive waste at the maintainer. ;) 13:51:54 enjoys the morning newspaper 13:51:54 Anyone might have any ideas in regards to the possibility of developing a visual programming model with Eclipse EMF, via Cusp? 13:51:56 heh. no minion to leave a memo to him 13:52:21 visual programming model could mean anything 13:52:24 long breakfast. mm. gotta do that tomorrow :) 13:52:32 p_nathan: lol, thanks 13:52:52 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:53:05 dlowe: true. It's a naive idea ;) 13:53:14 gimbal: visual programming model? 13:53:34 gimbal: uh, it's a staggeringly incomplete communication 13:53:41 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@37-4-120-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 13:53:45 madnificent: I suppose I should have to be able to explain what I mean by that, thanks! 13:54:00 a clnet outage would really put a crimp in someone's clbuild plans 13:54:17 My visual programming model currently involves displaying text with lots of parenthesis 13:54:19 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:54:19 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:54:27 gimbal: visual programming is a vampire horse at this point, it's been reanimated and beaten so many times. 13:54:40 Lol! 13:54:48 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:05 LabView is probably the most known (successful ?) visual programming tool, and it's staggeringly unusable at scale. 13:55:06 visual programming vampire horse leads a very sad unlife 13:55:34 Prograph was neat, but it didn't really take off 13:55:47 I still have the 700 page manual lying around somewhere 13:56:16 The dev environment was written in itself, so it wasn't entirely useless 13:56:36 p_nathan: if gimbal wants to pursue some graphical programming thing, let him. perhaps he's lucky and finds a way to get it all working. thinking about s-expressions might lead to a clearer model. 13:56:38 visual programming? 13:56:43 Will look those up, paradigms-wise, to be more specific and perhaps less naive about the topic, after looking those up :) 13:57:20 the great promise of visual programming these days is that it lends itself naturally to data flow instead of execution flow 13:57:35 which makes parallelization far easier on the backend 13:58:01 gimbal: generally, visual programming is hugely attractive and has a terrible time being actually usable. 13:58:20 Data flow, I see. Sounds like a matter of visualization of data models? 13:58:25 gimbal: there's cusp, which is a plugin for eclipse. generating classes from an ER schema or from a UML class diagram shouldn't be too complex if you have a programmatic model of them. generating generic functions for interfaces which you provide on a higher level should be doable too. the actual implementation of methods is hard in a visual model, but you may be able to figure out a direct translation between s-expressio 13:58:25 visual representation. 13:58:29 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 13:58:30 I would check out Xilinx, LabView, Light Table, and LOGO just to start 13:58:54 madnificent: yeah, I was thinking of Eclipse EMF along that lines :) 13:59:16 (s "those" "that") 13:59:17 graphical visualization of source code is a slightly different field as well and is hard to do well 13:59:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:00:11 enterprise architect http://sparxsystems.com.au/ is in this arena as well. I found it buggy as all get out and IMO I'd rather write s-exp. 14:00:13 gimbal: i think it fails mostly because a keyboard is vastly more expressive than a mouse. the same way as, under the premise of much user experience, a keyboard-driven wm is more productive than a mouse-driven one. so you'll probably want to focus on people that don't want to code 14:00:34 p_nathan: I like the speed bar/outline view, I think that tends to be enough for me. IMO, programming languages are developed for the text editor paradigm, maybe there's a more abstract approach possible for making it useful in a visual model editor 14:00:53 gimbal: I wish you most excellent luck! 14:01:18 gimbal: seriously, check out prograph 14:01:25 p_nathan: thx 14:01:41 the hilarious bit is that you can get literal "spaghetti code" where the lines criss-cross so much you can't tell what's going on 14:02:03 pd/maxmsp are very well known for that kind of code 14:02:21 they're also worth looking at when looking for visual programming ideas 14:02:25 it also isn't tractable using well-worn text tools for searching, analysis, etc. 14:02:26 gimbal: i don't know how the generation of methods works in EMF, but aside from that, it should be doable to do the same in lisp (potentially even keeping their interface). 14:02:46 gimbal: take a look at "model building" in the embedded space. 14:03:03 gimbal: what brings you back to lisp? 14:03:28 looks like tumblr.com is down too. so much for a lisptips.com update. 14:03:40 *Xach* wonders if tumblr is hosted on clnet 14:03:45 dlowe: will do. Found a paper incidentally, mentioning prograph and labview, both http://bit.ly/ScRkDI (google scholar link) 14:03:50 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:20 bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:04:38 Parts of model building systems sometimes are tools which take (at least) a NFA and render out the code. (they also are used to generate a slew of other things so you can verify the model with tests on the device and so forth) 14:04:46 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:57 http://www.windriver.com/products/simics/ might be one of them I think 14:05:45 Then there's actual lisp environments with visual elements like Squeak 14:05:54 Nothing for common lisp that I know of, though 14:06:09 Wait, Squeak is smalltalk. I meant Racket. 14:07:28 I wonder ... 14:07:31 CLIM has a lot of visual elements 14:07:32 Xach: I'm looking at the idea of using MKCL with CL+J for quick prototyping of user interfaces in Java SWT - would like to try modeling the SWT API via FFI, in CLOS. Then again, I haven't double checked to see if MKCL implements MOP, I notice 14:08:20 clim is wonderful 14:08:38 gimbal: if you're poking the JVM, why not ABCL? 14:09:39 p_nathan: my mental notes went onlynso 14:09:42 Erg 14:09:47 Do tell. 14:09:48 Tablet. 14:10:12 My mental notes went only so far as "MKCL and Java" lol 14:10:31 Ah. 14:10:56 and why mkcl? isn't that the less supported fork of ECL? 14:10:58 MKCL is a fork of ECL, I believe, and relatively recent at that, IIRC. ABCL is built on Java 14:11:05 gimbal: How did you end up trying MKCL? 14:11:48 p_l: I didnt take any notes to that, before I wound up focusing on other work - Java, OWL, etc 14:12:27 ahhh...Owl... tell me, did anyone got better free tools than Protege? 14:12:28 -!- tiglog [~topeak@123.116.84.151] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12:46 MKCL + CL+J ... In short ;) 14:13:18 J language? :o 14:13:28 Java 14:13:48 You can kind of do all-in-one there if you use ABCL. 14:14:00 Will take another look at ABCL, I'm sure I must've been fairly subjective when looking at it before 14:14:01 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has joined #lisp 14:14:29 paul0 [~user@201.47.47.65.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:14:40 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:28 gimbal: I hacked together an entirely lame ABCL/Java demo a few moths ago at: https://github.com/pnathan/abcl-demo 14:15:37 I might tend to prefer the kind of stand-alone CL + Swank client development model 14:15:40 s/moths/Months 14:16:00 p_nathan: cool 14:16:49 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 14:17:36 gimbal: and that does not work with abcl because....? 14:18:11 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 p_l free in a FOSS sense, not to my understanding, though there is a free ( in cost of license sense) edition of TopBraid Composer available. I wasn't able to figure out how to set up a remote SPARQL endpoint (outside an existing, locally stored model) with either, and stopped looking at it shortly thereafter, haven't evaluated it in much 14:19:28 gimbal: ah 14:19:49 I'll have to try TopBraid Composer, then. Protege was... an example of how to fuck up an UI 14:20:05 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:11 gimbal: if you want sparql stuff, i think i have a library laying around for it somewhere 14:20:32 H4ns: I'm sure it would, but if I was using that model via the Eclipse IDE, I might prefer to have ABCL loaded in the same process as the IDE, via a plugin, and I didn't feel prepared to stat designing such a thing, in my last iteration wrt Common Lisp + Java 14:20:41 sykopomp: hey, does that count as a library? a library to communicate with a sparql endpoint? 14:20:53 madnificent: with OWL, a lot of it is good and efficient UI to manipulate 14:21:16 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:21:50 p_l: coming from someone that knows how to use OWL and SPARQL and how the issues with the open world model work out in practice, be warned that it isn't at all an end-all solution. 14:22:31 ahh 14:22:34 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:56 *gimbal* goes afk 14:23:03 use of Protege has the interesting effect of making students hate semantic web 14:23:11 and semantic databases etc. 14:23:17 p_l: it can be used as a flexible database if you don't have too much data in it though. (also, i'm talking about OWL-DL + SPARQL 1.1) 14:23:31 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 14:24:19 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:30 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.21.161.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:24:52 Sounds like many people with LISP in college 14:26:17 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.220] has joined #lisp 14:26:55 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:35 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:29:32 *gimbal* back 14:30:54 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zvaztcleemuylxmx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:31:36 p_l: I've been thinking about the idea of developing Portlets (JSR style) for working with OWL data models via such as GateIn UXP (probably Vaadin for UI - all of this in Java) but that takes a lot of architecture to work out, for whatever possible gains on the usability side. It's my hope that the ideas might gel together better if I can do it in Lisp, lol 14:32:15 Zachary: that reminds me that there's the student licensing option for ACl, 14:33:01 still pretty expensive, but not that bad 14:33:42 *p_l* goes back to hacking together a VMS cluster 14:34:08 ...for ACL. I'll have to look at that. I've heard that ACL have some FFI support for Java - that CL+J may've been modeled after that, moreover. I tend to shy sway from ACL due to it being a non-FOSS Toolchain component, though it seems that Franz takes an overall amicable position wrt FOSS 14:35:21 Might have to look into Siri, too ;) text to speech for Freenode chat - might be kinda neat :) 14:35:49 petergil [~user@c80-216-44-38.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:36:33 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: day job summoning] 14:36:34 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 -!- petergil [~user@c80-216-44-38.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:17 gimbal: emacsspeak 14:37:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:37:43 no need to look into evil propietery solutions, that also spy on you. 14:37:45 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: cpc26] 14:37:49 Been looking at knowledge management overall - there's a nice paper by Alavi and Leidner - http://bit.ly/R6hrIh 14:39:07 ams: I've heard of it. been trying to integrate the mobile computing paradigm into a conventional albeit ad hoc workflow - on a tablet presently 14:39:17 gimbal: eparse 14:39:21 nothing you said makes sense. 14:39:33 My apologies ;) 14:39:33 he wants to easily write code on a tablet 14:39:46 ok, get a keyboard. 14:40:03 presumably without the keyboard 14:40:33 ok, don't code then, code by definition is text, and text is easiest to write using a keyboard; or pen and paper. 14:40:46 Writing code on an Apple mobile device, without having to go through a web browser of web API for it - that would be nice :) 14:41:00 Web browser *or* web API 14:41:04 ams: it's not text in a lisp 14:41:15 gimbal: i fail to see what would be nice, apple is an utterly evil and devious company. 14:41:28 dlowe: Well, yes and no. 14:41:52 We write text, that we pass to our repl that evals it, and gets something back which it prints back in text,. 14:42:08 It's not text but modern editors mostly treat it as text. 14:42:25 Ams: I've heard that Apple developed kind of a rigid corporate model under Steve Jobs. I don't personally believe it was in the service of Cthulu or any such ;) 14:42:34 I disagree, your image is not text sure, but your .lisp is. 14:42:57 gimbal: I was not speaking about their coroporate model. 14:43:05 your .lisp is a textual representation of the data structure that is the lisp code 14:43:07 .lisp can be seen as a serialization format for s-exps which are not text 14:43:21 Institutional models vs community driven models - paradigms. Pardon my rambling ;) 14:43:53 anyway, why so grouchy? Let a thousand flowers bloom, I say. 14:44:11 naryl: dlowe gave a nice description 14:44:24 so what we write, and mostly interact with _is_ text 14:44:34 (and let the dead bodies of the fallen fertilize the survivors. muhahaha) 14:44:37 Because editors treat it as text. 14:44:38 Lisp as a serialization format - that's interesting 14:44:49 gimbal: .lisp files 14:44:54 ams: it's true, but presumably gimbal's experimental thing wouldn't be so 14:45:00 (1 . 2) is text, but memory wise it would a cons box with two integers. 14:45:06 naryl: ah, I see 14:45:18 common lisp is not s-expressions, so claiming that s-expressions and common lisp source text are interchangeable is grossly oversimplifying things. 14:45:21 naryl: and your compiler, and interpeter, even the lispm's treated things like text, mostly... 14:45:22 which is a sad fact. 14:45:42 ams: Only the reader. Because reader-macros. 14:46:01 naryl: fair enough 14:46:05 :) 14:46:37 I think Moore tried some experiments with Forth where code was really just .. code 14:46:46 lisp has a long way to get back to those roots though 14:46:47 *gimbal* goes afk with the serialization IDE I 14:46:57 Eh tablet. With the serialization idea in mind 14:47:10 gimbal: Question, why? 14:47:11 -!- gimbal is now known as gimbal_afk 14:47:14 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:47:36 Ams: it's one of those naive ideas, wouldn't want tomsha 14:47:51 To share w/o a more concrete expression for it 14:48:05 Need to get off to some chore 14:48:08 Chores 14:48:11 Afk 14:48:17 okie, cheerio 14:48:29 :) 14:51:37 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:52:38 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:58 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl7-44-53.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 15:01:39 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 15:01:44 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.40.235] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:02:02 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 15:02:51 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:03:24 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:32 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 15:03:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:04:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.20.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:07:03 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-25-173.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08:42 Interesting. All CLs I've tried will detect a symbol conflict in defpackage but then proceed to create a partially configured package afterwards, and the extent and nature of its partial configuration is implementation-dependent. 15:08:51 *Xach* would prefer a look-before-you-leap approach in defpackage 15:10:05 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:49 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:12:14 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:06 add^_` [~user@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:17:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:53 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-15-122.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:20:23 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:20:32 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:20:45 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:05 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-68-82.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:26:00 H4ns: your statement made me realize that a couple of images could well represent lisp code. as in: it could be valid to include them in a .lisp file and read it and eval it. eat that, . (at least, i wouldn't know how to do it in java or ruby) 15:26:17 (or anything else i know, at first sight) 15:26:23 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:07 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 15:27:35 lisp is the best, screw the rest! 15:27:45 amen 15:27:59 although it has soured me to all of the languages I've built my career on. :p 15:29:29 I was thinking of making a page with examples of the error messages you get from all implementations for the four kinds of symbol conflict, along with an explanation of what it is and how to avoid it. 15:29:41 Things are so tough to google sometimes. 15:30:43 j_king: i thought you were a researcher, am i mistaken? 15:30:45 Xach: do it. :p 15:31:16 madnificent: in my spare time. I pay the bills with python, c/c++ 15:31:41 wish I was a researcher full time 15:32:07 *madnificent* wouldn't know where to find a regular lisp job either 15:32:07 dream job -- discover cool shit! :D 15:32:34 madnificent: I'm of the mind you'd have to make your own. that is a long term plan 15:33:44 I'm working on an implementation of the Bloom programming language as an embedded DSL in Python... will be presenting at pycon.ca what I've learned so far. Goal for that is to take what I've learned back to CL of course... might be commercial applications for it 15:33:50 *sellout42* would like to gloat that he has a regular lisp job, but actually I write Haskell and asm all day lately. 15:34:07 you poor thing 15:34:47 Heh, yeah  it's not really a complaint ;) 15:35:23 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 15:36:20 teggi [~teggi@113.172.61.4] has joined #lisp 15:36:31 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:08 dunib [~dunib@124-148-239-232.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:39:28 the internet is exploding. it might not be drewc's fault. http://internettrafficreport.com/ 15:40:50 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:11 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:43:36 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:57 madnificent: lispjobs.wordpress.com of course 15:44:58 fiveop [~fiveop@37-4-120-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:06 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:46:25 Is 'parsing' the word for the act of parsing a string (e.g. code). For example: During the parsing(?) of the document an error occurred. 15:47:57 fiveop: seems likely 15:48:36 Any of you guys here applying for the NovaSparks Boston openings? 15:48:43 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:59 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@37-4-120-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 15:51:32 -!- dunib [~dunib@124-148-239-232.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:43 dunib_ [~dunib@58-7-225-159.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:51:58 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-146-060-029-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:54:11 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:56:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:57:20 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:57:40 oubiwann [~oubiwann@98.207.167.39] has joined #lisp 15:57:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:58:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 15:59:41 -!- phrixos [U2FsdGVkX1@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:01:28 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: am0c] 16:01:39 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:03:54 -!- DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:23 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:04:53 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:12 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 16:11:54 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:07 I just got one job (non-lisp unfortunately), so it's out of question :/ 16:14:01 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:22 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:53 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:19:11 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:19:17 Only one? 16:19:35 Xach: there's another that is contract work and still unclear ;) 16:22:56 one: like a man's life, more than one: like the men's wives! :) 16:22:59 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:22 not in this country 16:24:49 anyway, I'm stuck here for a year, and I doubt the novasparks job will still have the opening in one year 16:25:59 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:27:07 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:51 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:51 16:29:51 -!- names: ccl-logbot user123abc redline6561 lduros mishoo DrPete kmels am0c jtza8 oubiwann dunib_ linse brandonz teggi answer_42 hilbert iLogical moore33 add^_` catmtking nforgerit LiamH PuercoPop Kenjin kliph pnpuff mucker findiggle kiuma foreignFunction doomlord sambio agumonkey paul0 KingsKnighted bitonic joast gimbal_afk Euthy varjag stat_vi Mon_Ouie gravicappa Slivka edgar-rft naryl dfox ignas wbooze cdidd Jasko mrcarrot sykopomp morphling ams circle hiteki 16:29:51 -!- names: theBlackDragon stlifey Yuuhi add^_ urandom__ Oddity faust45 MoALTz hiro3 rtoym gffa elixey pavelpenev ivan-kanis peterhil cyphase killerboy prxq _d3f xan_ punee pirateking-_- angavrilov NimeshNeema leoncamel kpreid theos strobegen benny Nisstyre spiderweb kennyd karswell Kvakz mtd axion ianmcorvidae sbryant __main__ Praise mathrick CampinSam nooy sweet_kid s0ber sysop_fb araujo cic_ Vivitron quasisane TristamWrk Vutral spacefrogg^ ezakimak wyan z0d angus 16:29:51 -!- names: mindCrime nlpplz quazimod1 easye cataska Demosthenex ace4016 rvirding Gurragchaa varjagg SeanTAllen Ralith robot-beethoven Natch sellout42 RiskyBlit Amadiro bobbysmith007 Codynyx Odin- rking ASau trigen jdz djinni` madnificent limetree setmeaway cibs vert2 lemoinem guyal__ Obfuscate gensym CoverSlide AntiSpamMeta ans kindergip asciilifeform b0ef bjorkintosh Tristam kleppari guaqua REPLeffect _Mon_Ouie_ |3b| Tordek adx samograd phadthai j_king jjkola_work 16:29:51 -!- names: billstclair impulse superflit Fade rvchangue cods mdh arrsim ozzloy antifuchs Tehnix drewc nowhere_man _veer frodef christoph_debian prip_ foom BrianRice renard_ [SLB] mal_ kanru turbolent basso bzzbzz cmm quazimodo terjesb dRbiG The_third_man jeekl jaaso __class__ Sgeo brendyn ivan\ ``Erik YokYok jasom rabite abeaumont df_ ZombieChicken oconnore wormphle1m schoppenhauer Nshag cpt_nemo @fe[nl]ix fmu ragnul jsnell Posterdati egn SHODAN Xach Khisanth 16:29:52 -!- names: nightfly_ gf3 JPeterson les otwieracz hohum_ cnl BeLucid_ dan64 smithzv arbscht tali713 elliottcable jrockway dlowe bps p_l mstevens kirin` brown` foo303_ acieroid tessier ski ArmyOfBruce setheus vhost- Patzy antoszka luis p_l|backup stokachu aoh scharan wuehli BlastHardcheese finnrobi _root_ xristos qsun jayne barik gemelen copec housel _tca sytse drdo Tanami veemon joshe Buglouse PECCU em pchrist sshirokov herbieB ivan nicdev guther ered billitch 16:29:52 -!- names: mouflon surrounder pkhuong postfuturist cryptic asedeno_work wccoder srcerer Krystof felipe xaxisx DrForr derrida Jabberwockey clog pok cross_ hpd sepisult1um _schulte_ aerique cYmen Yahovah_ CrazyEddy mikaelj zbigniew tdmackey hugod samebchase ineiros eMBee dmbaturin yan_ ft Adeon pareidolia literal basho clop newcup felideon astopholos_ tvaalen_ MikeSeth Yamazaki-kun daimrod tomaw cmbntr_ ramus flip214 rotty oGMo nitro_idiot_ tychoish aajmakin gabot 16:29:52 -!- names: galdor Mandus H4ns gilez freiksenet rdd konaya yroeht Viaken Subfusc boyscared robonyankitty yeltzooo dsp_ rfgpfeiffer slava_ Borbus johs tkd nuba reactormonk scode fasta dim froggey sigjuice adeht 16:31:01 the max it's of nine lives. XD 16:31:30 -!- aajmakin [~aajmakin@morphine.tml.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:01 stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.19.141.83] has joined #lisp 16:32:06 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.83] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 16:32:06 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:08 literal_ [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 16:32:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:32:56 aajmakin [~aajmakin@morphine.tml.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 16:33:34 -!- add^_` [~user@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 add^_` [~user@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:33:56 -!- yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:33:59 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:07 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 16:34:30 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:34:31 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:34:36 yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has joined #lisp 16:34:57 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:35:00 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 16:38:18 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-064-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:08 -!- yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:39:52 yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.21.161.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 16:41:42 jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-244.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:42:14 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:43:06 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:11 -!- yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:44:27 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2de7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44:36 -!- DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:59 yan_ [~yan@64.22.109.95] has joined #lisp 16:45:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.139.189] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@2.132.139.189] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010214.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:45 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:46:04 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 16:46:59 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:48:14 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:30 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:29 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:52:49 metasyn [~amh@50.124.136.66] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:54:52 Ralt_ [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 16:54:58 hello people 16:55:03 -!- add^_` [~user@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:09 any gentle soul around, eager to help a newbie? 16:55:24 Ralt_: don't ask to ask, just ask :) 16:55:25 I am having a weird problem that I cannot find out what is wrong 16:55:30 alright :-) 16:55:43 Ralt_: what's up? 16:56:04 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:17 I'm having the following code: (defvar *repos*) (push "test" *repos*) (find "test" *repos*) NIL 16:56:25 why does the find return NIL? 16:56:36 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-15-122.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:51 Ralt_: (find "test" *repos* :test #'string=) 16:57:06 what? 16:57:16 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:21 I suspect it's more like (defvar *repos* nil) or some intervening setting of it 16:57:24 Ralt_: "test" isn't necessarily eql to "test". 16:57:25 Ralt_: two strings with the same characters in it are not necessarily eql 16:57:28 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 16:57:34 yeah I guessed that was it 16:57:46 Ralt_: try 'test instead of "test" 16:57:50 Ralt_: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 16:57:53 but I didn't know how to do this correctly... my clisp google-fu isn't good yet 16:58:12 Ralt_: it is called "common lisp". clisp is an implementation of common lisp. 16:58:23 yeah, but clisp is shorter to write. 16:58:27 Ralt_: find has a keyword argument, named test. it defaults to #'eql, which returns non-nil if and only if both arguments are numbers, and they're the same, or if the ojbect references are the same. you want to compare strings now, which you can do through #'string= . like (string= "foo" "foo"). 16:58:39 Ralt_: we use lisp, it's even shorter! 16:58:48 Ralt_: CL, then. 16:58:50 ah, I thought lisp might be too broad 16:59:03 Ralt_: do not use clisp when you mean common lisp. you will not be understood correctly. 16:59:05 Xach : CL isn't understood by the majority of people 16:59:09 Ralt_: naah, common lisp claimed the name lisp, so you can use it :) 16:59:11 H4ns : k :-) 16:59:16 Ralt_: In this channel, it is. 16:59:17 madnificent good to know 16:59:24 Xach guess so :p 17:00:59 sykopomp using 'test doesn't work, dunno why it would 17:01:13 using the :test keyword does work however :-) 17:01:17 thanks! 17:01:23 this channel looks pretty nice. 17:01:35 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:02:06 Ralt_: I meant (find 'test *repos*)/(push 'test *repos*) 17:02:32 oh, so actually pushing symbols instead of strings? 17:02:59 -!- DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:17 what's often used? 17:03:30 lisp is the first language I'm using symbols in, so it's quite a new concept to me 17:03:46 it depends 17:03:58 if it's your own identifiers, symbols are usually good 17:04:00 or even keywords 17:04:11 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 17:05:36 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:43 if I need interned strings, keywords seem the best option to me. 17:05:45 does this rule of thumb work? if it represents written text, use strings. if you want them to be shared across packages without naming conflicts, use keywords. if other packages may add their own concepts to the list, use symbols. 17:06:59 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:07:06 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:40 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-146.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:10:28 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-160.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:16 -!- dunib_ [~dunib@58-7-225-159.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:11:56 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.61.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:44 dunib [~dunib@124-148-116-73.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:14:10 -!- metasyn [~amh@50.124.136.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:14:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:15:06 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:15:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:04 ehu [~ehu@109.35.19.219] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:19:32 madnificent thanks for the rule, quite useful :) 17:19:54 do you guys know about the github game off contest? https://github.com/blog/1303-github-game-off 17:20:06 I've started reading practical common lisp recently 17:20:20 and I'm going to participe by writing the entire game in lisp 17:20:34 Sweet. 17:20:40 even the css/js 17:20:53 Are you going to use parenscript? 17:20:56 I'm quite verse already in frontend web dev, so it's not really the problem 17:21:02 jasom yeah, that's the point 17:21:11 parenscript + css-lite from what I see 17:21:23 the game will be "introduction to common lisp" ;o) 17:21:40 this will learn me quite a lot about lisp overall I hope 17:22:02 I've had some issues with css-lite's choice of syntax (though it's still what I use right now, since I'm too lazy to write my own) 17:22:31 I've just seen some examples for now, it looks like it will allow me to use macros & stuff in lisp, thus getting the power of lisp in css 17:23:55 the big issue I run into is that nested children and properties are distinguised by position not value, so you can't do simple scss like mixins 17:24:26 you have to pass the whole rule to the mixin, rather than nesting the mixin within the rule that is 17:26:38 hm 17:26:48 well I'll see 17:27:38 *jasom* ported parts of the octopress theme to css-lite 17:29:09 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:08 gridaphobe [~user@128.54.34.115] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 Ralt_: you want to know #lispgames then :) 17:33:13 Ralt_: and #lispweb too, it seems (though that's very low traffic) 17:33:34 madnificent oh, I'm more into web stuff generally, I'm mostly doing this game to learn lisp (and maybe win an iPad \o/) 17:33:53 yeah #lispweb looks quite empty 17:34:19 _quite_ :) 17:36:08 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:36:53 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:40:32 paolo_m [~user@adsl-ull-204-219.49-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 17:41:00 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:22 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 systh [~marmoell@ip-109-47-0-81.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:58:59 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:59 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn901-163.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:25 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 18:01:04 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:01:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:34 Hi, does anyone know what controls the highlighting of Lisp objects in Slime? 18:01:40 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 18:02:38 When I do a mouseover of a returned value, Slime highlights it and I get the mouse2: copy-to-input etc. 18:02:47 I know I can turn off the tooltips with M-x tooltip-mode 18:02:57 but what about the actual highlighting of the objects on mouseover? 18:03:42 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:03:44 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:01 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:16 gendl: in the repl, those are slime-presentations (or some similar name) 18:04:24 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:34 -!- dunib [~dunib@124-148-116-73.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:04:36 I don't know the way to disable or change it, but if you check the manual or the .el for presentation-related options, you may find your answer. 18:06:18 Xach: thank you, I will find it. I'm guessing that the person who thinks they want it disabled would be better served just by getting used to it, anyway. 18:06:30 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:34 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:06:39 And by making less use of the mouse. 18:07:11 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-226-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:07:14 Well, it can help with GC a bit. IIRC swank would keep handles on repl objects after you might think they were collected. 18:07:23 Not indefinitely, but longer than *, **, *** 18:09:50 dunib [~dunib@58-7-88-150.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:09:57 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:09:57 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifetime expired] 18:12:04 -!- systh [~marmoell@ip-109-47-0-81.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Quit: systh] 18:13:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:13:42 Xach: lisptips.com is up 18:15:45 thanks naryl 18:15:52 the long international nightmare is over 18:17:09 nightmare? 18:17:11 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:17:18 because you could not be there? :) 18:17:58 H4ns: i mean lisptips.com being down 18:18:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 uh, the "international" misled me 18:18:49 it is, as far as i know, an international treasure 18:19:34 i got a lisp question 18:19:50 Was ist los? 18:20:09 i have the need to collect some directory pathnames at compile time, in order to bundle the files in these directories with the binary that is distributed 18:21:04 what i did so far was use a macro to collect the paths into a special variable and dump the contents of that variable into a file (using buildapp and --eval). 18:21:41 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:21:57 the issue with that is that it requires a full rebuild to really work, so what i'd really like to do is put the pathnames collected, say, into the .fasl files of the files that use them 18:22:12 i think this would be easy, but i don't quite know how to do it. thoughts? 18:23:59 have separate metadata files? like one per each lisp file 18:24:12 something with load-time-value? 18:24:20 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:02 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 18:25:11 jsnell: you mean write the pathnames to an extra file from the macro? that would work, but i hoped for something less ugly. 18:26:43 that's what I meant. maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I got the impression that you wanted to do this operation without loading all the lisp code. and then you kind of need that data to be somewhere outside the fasls 18:27:09 It looks like common-lisp.net is down now? 18:27:21 I think the ALU has been paying the domain registration for that domain 18:28:20 gendl: it is down 18:28:29 jsnell: no, i don't mind the data being in the lisp image. i could just start the program generated by buildapp to have it dump the directories. the thing i can't figure out is how to get compile-time information into the application from multiple files. 18:28:37 I guess that was mentioned in here recently by someone else already, but I can't seem to scroll up now... 18:28:43 i still think it is very easy and i'm just dumb. 18:29:03 *Xach* has lost drewc's cell number 18:29:18 gendl: the domain name is fine, but the virtual machine is dead for some reason 18:30:26 H4ns: (defmacro foo () `(eval-when (:load-toplevel) (register-path ,*compile-file-pathname*))) 18:31:39 and a toplevel call to foo for each file you care about 18:32:18 jsnell: ok. but how does register-path work, facing incremental builds? 18:33:34 it can be just about anything, e.g. a pushnew on a special. incremental builds shouldn't be an issue as long as you're willing to load all the fasls even when only building a subset of the files 18:33:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:15 jsnell: ah, now i see what you mean. 18:34:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:34:53 jsnell: thing is, the uses of the directory pathnames that i want to keep are not happening on the top level 18:35:26 t4nk988 [42393949@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.57.57.73] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 jsnell: i have several invocations of (asdf:system-relative-pathname :foo "some-path/") that i would like to replace by something that does not depend on asdf without having to maintain the list of library directories manually 18:36:34 anyone know how to disable the camel case translation in cl-json? 18:36:54 jsnell: having some top level form might work, but i'd prefer something that works without that. 18:37:27 Bike: load-time-value may actually help 18:38:34 yeah, it should work 18:38:56 jsnell, Bike: thanks! 18:39:16 H4ns: I don't quite get it, what library directories? Libraries stored within the project? 18:39:21 (if you don't want to discuss further, that's fine) 18:39:41 Xach: directories containing auxiliary files. 18:40:34 H4ns: ah, and you have some bundling process that should bring them along? 18:40:50 t4nk988: I think you just alter the json:*lisp-identifier-name-to-json* and json:*json-identifier-name-to-lisp* hooks 18:40:52 Xach: right. and the references are all over the place 18:40:57 H4ns: i see, thanks. 18:41:54 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 18:43:25 -!- hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:05 hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:29 -!- t4nk988 [42393949@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.57.57.73] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:44:37 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:45:08 t4nk573 [42393949@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.57.57.73] has joined #lisp 18:45:26 -!- hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has left #lisp 18:46:05 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-91-238.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:46:59 xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has joined #lisp 18:47:02 hiteki [~user@120.29.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:21 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:47:37 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.21.161.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:50:24 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:37 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:54:58 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 18:55:51 -!- _Mon_Ouie_ is now known as Mon_Ouie 18:55:53 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@2.192-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 18:55:53 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:56:07 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:23 brilliant. i love lisp. 18:58:11 H4ns: are you in the USA at the moment? we should get together for a beer and talk about how we both love lisp. 18:58:22 Xach: yeah, but i'm in florida 18:58:40 I can meet you halfway, e.g. virginia. Ignore the hurricane thing. 18:59:01 bah, hurricanes. i need to convince my girls, though, they are with me this time. 18:59:14 gridapho` [~user@169.228.188.47] has joined #lisp 18:59:42 you americans go about it so oddly. when we say i'll meet you halfway in this city we're talking about 1.5 km 18:59:43 *H4ns* uses lisp to find out what a trip to virginia would cost 19:00:15 i think manuel is in washington 19:00:42 -!- gridaphobe [~user@128.54.34.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:01:06 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.18.127.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 19:01:56 heh. 5 hours of flight for $114. not bad. 19:03:18 Xach: let's do that when i'm here alone next time. i can even fly father north then. 19:03:34 Ok! 19:03:48 -!- gridapho` [~user@169.228.188.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-187.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:20 gridapho` [~user@169.228.188.47] has joined #lisp 19:06:31 -!- gridapho` is now known as gridaphobe 19:07:58 -!- t4nk573 [42393949@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.57.57.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:11:56 madnificent: well My parents are in Virginia, I'm in California. We are in the same country, but much further away than my friend who lives in Germany, with parents in the UK 19:12:19 halfway would probably be in the middle of nowhere 19:12:42 maybe north-east new mexico or something 19:13:30 Loretta, Kansas 19:13:45 jasom: how 'far' something seems is just different. back to lisp :) 19:14:10 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:53 -!- gimbal_afk [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 19:17:46 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 snearch [~snearch@f053013065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:12 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 scalanoob [1f6e0fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.110.15.208] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 -!- scalanoob [1f6e0fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.110.15.208] has left #lisp 19:19:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:20:20 lispie [1f6e0fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.110.15.208] has joined #lisp 19:20:45 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:51 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:21:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:05 -!- lispie [1f6e0fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.110.15.208] has quit [Client Quit] 19:27:20 findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:46 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:04 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 19:29:18 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:53 what is the between (use #:cl) and (use :cl)? Y would imagine that # means look for the symbol in the function namespace? 19:30:15 no, it means the symbol isn't interned 19:30:30 interned? 19:30:44 :foo is interned into the keyword package 19:30:53 #:foo is just a symbol that belongs to no package. 19:31:01 package designators can be symbols or strings 19:31:02 in a package. (symbol-package '#:foo) => NIL, (symbol-package ':foo) => the keyword package. 19:31:04 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 19:31:04 PuercoPop: in some contexts, when symbols are not evaluated and are used only to get a string to name something, I like to use uninterned symbols. their syntax is #:foo 19:31:08 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:27 defpackage, defsystem, and in-package usually 19:31:40 there are other options but that is my preference 19:31:45 ahh so that is why they do (in-package :cl-user) before using the #:cl way 19:31:51 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:32:18 *PuercoPop* nods 19:32:37 I would write that (in-package #:cl-user) 19:32:43 yeah I saw the #:cl syntax in your code and the :cl in fukumachi's one 19:32:51 it's... cleaner, in a way. 19:33:19 it doesn't really matter, but I picked up the habit because why intern a symbol if I don't really need/use it? 19:33:46 also, you can never have enough sharp signs 19:33:55 I specially use it for exports because otherwise, it trashes up your apropos 19:34:02 '#'#:foo, am I right 19:34:12 Bike: get out of town 19:36:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:36:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:38:20 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@64.124.192.210] has joined #lisp 19:39:31 francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has joined #lisp 19:40:21 sykopomp: Apropos is the search path for symbol resolution right? 19:40:42 PuercoPop: it's a way to see if some symbol exists that has a particular substring. 19:40:58 It's for user information browsing only. 19:41:14 Hey Xach. 19:41:20 hi gigamonkey 19:41:21 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:41:30 *PuercoPop* nods 19:42:05 I've been hanging out at Hacker School for a week. I don't know whether to be heartened or dismayed that so many of the Hacker School kids are implementing Lisp in Javascript or Python as their project. 19:42:35 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:52 rite of passage perhaps 19:43:24 Yeah. I showed one kid yesterday how to write a proper reader. Blew his mind, I think. 19:43:53 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@64.124.192.210] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 19:44:25 Rob Warnock had a nice, short sketch implementation of a CL-style reader in C. I think it helped clear things up for people who started on C. A version for younger people might be helpful. 19:44:50 ... hacker school? 19:48:12 loopy [1f6e0fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.110.15.208] has joined #lisp 19:48:26 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@64.124.192.210] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 given a list of positive ints (a1, ..., an), how do you functionally generate the list of lists containing all the possibilities (1 to a1, 1 to a2 ... 1 to an). 19:49:18 permute ? 19:49:30 e.g. (1 2 3) => ((1,1,1),(1,1,2),(1,1,3),(1,2,1),(1,2,2),(1,2,3) 19:49:53 loopy: with loops. 19:49:54 *madnificent* would recursively loop and get a stack overflow soon. then don't build the recursive solution 19:50:20 madnificent: for extra ickyness to FP people, use tagbody 19:50:28 that is, use it directly, not as expansion of loop 19:50:37 p_l: you're mean 19:50:47 but i like it 19:50:47 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 19:51:01 loopy: that's an interesting problem, how did it come up? 19:52:09 It came up because I can't solve it - and it very annoying :) 19:52:22 loopy: school assignment? 19:52:39 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-68-82.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:52:40 hilbert_ [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 loopy: sounds like combinations. 19:53:22 order doesn't matter 19:55:14 alexandria:map-permutations is similar, but doesn't duplicate elements. 19:55:57 lispm [~lispm@g224126191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:09 loopy: i mean, how did you come across it? 19:57:09 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3672880/more-generic-lisp-code-to-generate-combinations-of-pairs 19:58:28 I am studying functional programming - and need to learn functional methods 19:58:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:59:57 j_king: that looks very interestin 20:02:19 It's part of the solution of a school assignment 20:03:56 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:04:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:07:24 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@64.124.192.210] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 20:11:26 rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:05 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@64.124.192.210] has joined #lisp 20:14:19 -!- guyal__ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:36 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.81] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:51 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:23:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-244.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:26:22 is there a way to determine whether a logical pathname host definition exists without resorting to ignore-errors? 20:27:30 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:27:44 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:18 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:31 Erm, does anyone know if common-lisp.net might be back up again today? Was hoping to get the recent releases of a couple of projects hosted there - ABCL and such 20:29:55 gimbal: we have not heard from drewc, so no. 20:30:02 Ok 20:30:04 ehu: do you maybe know what to do? 20:30:48 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@235.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:32:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:32:46 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 20:32:52 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 20:33:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:34:32 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:01 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl7-44-53.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 20:38:46 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:39:03 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:11 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:40:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:40:19 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:42:33 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:45:16 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:17 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:01 H4ns: i'll have a look right away 20:47:26 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:12 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 20:49:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:50:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:05 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 20:51:40 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:48 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:45 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:57 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 20:53:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:53:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:27 -!- sellout42 is now known as sellout 20:55:53 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:45 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:35 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:54 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:38 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 21:00:22 Gimbal: should be fixed 21:00:25 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-vdrwvcxpmqswhmzy] has joined #lisp 21:00:43 -!- gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-vdrwvcxpmqswhmzy] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:56 gkeith_lt [georgekeit@nat/google/x-xgroqhupgrrlpmfn] has joined #lisp 21:01:00 ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:02:56 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:46 doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:33 -!- doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:33 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:49 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:52 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:24 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:08 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.35.19.219] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:09:15 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 21:09:28 H4ns: fixed. 21:09:33 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 21:10:35 ehu: thanks! what was the matter? 21:11:05 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:40 no idea. Drew fixed it. I had to go find my laptop and I pinged him before I did. He fixed it when I finally found the laptop. 21:11:48 I'll check. 21:13:24 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:13:26 don't worry. thanks! 21:15:20 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224126191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: lispm] 21:16:13 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:25 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:37 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 21:21:49 Anyone worked with Cusp? Wondering if it might be any more likely to work with ACL since http://bit.ly/R7KlYu - thinking about trying to make it work with ACL via ACL's j!inker 21:22:13 gimbal: did you see common-lisp.net is back up again? 21:22:14 Bluesky idea, kinda 21:22:39 ehu: I hadnt checked in about an hour, thanks for the note! 21:23:14 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:23:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:23:42 Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:26:39 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-209-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:27 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:27:31 Give or take some minutes lol. Well what a day... ;) 21:27:51 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:56 sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 21:29:10 gimbal: you have unbalanced eyes! 21:29:13 lol 21:30:04 gimbal: just get SLIME. Or the VIM equivalent 21:30:46 guyal__ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:58 gridapho` [~user@128.54.32.208] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 -!- gridapho` is now known as gridaphobe` 21:32:10 -!- gridaphobe [~user@169.228.188.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:32:13 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:32:24 p_l: going to have to, I see - emacs on windows isn't always the most convenient thing, lol, but will make it work I guess 21:32:46 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:58 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:08 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:37:06 It worked fine for me 21:37:18 still does for me. 21:38:54 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:36 Kvaks [~kvaks@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:40:59 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:43:42 -!- Adeon is now known as Adeon\SIGSEGV 21:48:24 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 21:48:28 Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has joined #lisp 21:48:36 bitonic [~user@5e0db072.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:50 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053013065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:50:54 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:11 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:24 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-000-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:55:36 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 21:55:39 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 21:55:42 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 21:55:45 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 21:55:51 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 21:56:45 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:56:59 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 21:57:08 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:58:47 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 21:59:09 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:32 -!- spiderweb [~spiderweb@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:04:04 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-6-41.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 22:04:29 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:35 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:01 spiderweb [~spiderweb@174-28-50-68.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.195.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:10:30 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 22:12:54 is there any way to declare the type of the cdr or car of a cons cell? 22:13:11 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 22:13:40 (type (cons integer) x) is a declaration that x is a cons cell, and its car is an integer 22:14:22 oh, you can declare both according to the hyperspec. 22:14:31 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@64.124.192.210] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 22:14:37 yes. 22:14:45 wingy [~wingy@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:56 Any advantage to using a cons cell over a 2 element vector? 22:15:08 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:15:10 conses are lighter. 22:15:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:28 or should be, in general, probably. :) 22:15:39 lighter? 22:16:38 a vector needs to store the length, and other configuration info. 22:16:56 a cons is just {tag, car, cdr} 22:17:21 Xach: depends on the use, I think. 22:17:22 sykopomp: Actually, the tag doesn't need to be in a cons cell. 22:17:24 sykopomp: a vector need not store its length when used internally 22:17:32 *sykopomp* imagines Lisp implementations could be clever enough to reduce 2-elt vectors to the same size as cons cells. 22:17:46 on SBCL, CONS seems to be at most 16 bytes, afaik 22:18:00 from what I read on the internals so far 22:18:16 p_l:That's my recollection. 22:18:29 i.e. two "sbcl words" 22:18:39 I would generally expect conses to be lighter than 2-vectors unless proven otherwise in a particular case. 22:18:39 and they don't have tags 22:18:55 how does the system identify them? 22:19:09 sykopomp: pointers to CONSes have special tag 22:19:11 iirc 22:19:16 yup 22:19:24 that is, tag is on pointers, not on object 22:19:46 well, you can move the tag around, move the vector length information to a special type, etc. 22:19:50 you're still using dem words. 22:20:03 *sykopomp* -> weekend. 22:20:08 sykopomp: A cons tag is much smaller than a word. 22:20:25 sykopomp: well, I meant that you don't take extra space for object header like with vector/array 22:21:34 I've been reading up on SBCL internals in hopes of hacking a bit on it for my final year project 22:23:30 if someone here have experience with clojure and common lisp and wants to share some experiences .. please msg me 22:24:17 thethomaseffect [~thethomas@109.255.215.132] has joined #lisp 22:25:40 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0db072.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:26:40 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:02 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:29:16 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:30 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 22:32:12 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:58 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:34:51 I have a class that manages running instances of gnugo with its input and output stream. How should I handle destruction of these objects? Is there something like a destructor in clos or would it be wiser to explicitely destroy the objects? 22:36:25 afaik, as soon as there is no reference left to an object, it will be destroyed 22:36:42 for example if you get out of a scope 22:37:38 sepisult1um: finalizers as from trivial-garbage, I think 22:39:09 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:39:11 -!- wingy [~wingy@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 22:39:49 you should not rely on finalizers to be actually called. 22:40:10 oh. 22:40:28 (i.e. there is no guarantee that any object is garbage collected ever) 22:40:42 if it is garbage collected, the finalizer will be called, but it might not be collected. 22:40:46 H4ns, Bike: Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I guess I'll just destroy the object manually then 22:40:49 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 22:40:52 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 22:40:55 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 22:41:01 -!- Kvakz is now known as Kvaks 22:41:04 -!- Kvaks is now known as Kvakz 22:41:14 so if you need to maintain resources external to the running lisp, or foreign memory, you should not do it with finalizers. 22:41:17 H4ns: so the garbage collection might not run for a long time? 22:41:53 sepisult1um: right. you have no explicit control over that. your objects may live much longer than you might expect. 22:41:59 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:42:15 sepisultlum:The GC might decide that your object is "long lived," and therefore not collect it for a long time after the last reference to it is removed. 22:44:30 Ralt_: nope, it doesn't get destroyed until the garbage collector finds it 22:44:52 k 22:45:10 -!- nooy [1000@h-155-42.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:51:10 Well, thanks for your help :) 22:51:35 -!- copec [~copec@166-70-136-61.ip.unaen.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:41 Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:22 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Farewell, farewell, God knows when we shall meet again. --Shakespeare] 22:55:34 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:25 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:02:03 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:02:29 -!- cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:39 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 23:03:03 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:03:19 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 23:08:07 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:08:47 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7552f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:10:20 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:14:58 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:04 paultreselli [~paul@ool-4570efac.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:46 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 23:17:54 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:42 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 23:19:06 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:20:03 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-226-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:06 hi I'm trying to come up with a cool way of making an ordered list of k elements from 1 to k-1 and this is what I have so far but it's not working out to well. I'm a newb to Lisp ,btw http://codepad.org/SQFbTOfd 23:21:38 paultreselli: working on scool assignments, are we? 23:22:04 actually, slacking in that,lol 23:22:17 I SHOULD be coding C++ right now,lol 23:22:52 paultreselli: why not use (loop repeat k for x from 0 collect x) 23:23:20 well I don't know about that yet. 23:23:34 ah 23:23:39 but I want my obtuse recursive method to work... 23:24:49 I mean so the prob I think perpahs is the optional arg,...if I leave it out in the recursive calls does it stay in scope or is it given the default value? 23:25:10 or must I explicitly pass it every time? 23:25:13 paultreselli: it doesn't stay in scope 23:25:31 as in: it's given a new value with each recursive call 23:25:36 for a hint of what's going wrong, change your eql to >= 23:25:56 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:25:56 as it stands it'll infinite loop if k is ever greater than n 23:25:59 thanks DrPete and mad.* 23:26:09 paultreselli: you also call cons too much 23:26:33 also it's not tail recursive if you've met that idea yet, since cons is the last thing that happens and not mk-list 23:26:55 paultreselli: and you parens and indentation are wrong. and try to use meaningfull names, anything is better than n and k (and mk-list). and now i should shut up. i like it that you're doing lisp 23:27:31 ok...so 23:27:53 ok other than lack of tail-r is the logic right? 23:28:20 what is n supposed to be? 23:28:36 (trying to understand your code, lisp newbie too :)) 23:29:34 (cons n ( cons (mk-list (+ n 1) ) nil ) ))) ...suppose the end condition were to happen...ie n=k, then (mk-list (+ n 1) ) returns n 23:29:52 paultreselli: http://pastie.org/5121335 23:32:19 mad thats elegant 23:32:21 thx 23:32:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:32:53 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:20 paultreselli: it's basically your own code. you must like your own style :) 23:34:49 (cons n ( cons (mk-list (+ n 1) ) nil ) ))) ...suppose the end condition were to happen...ie n=k, then (mk-list (+ n 1) ) returns n and so (cons n ( cons "n value from returned call " nil ) )) 23:35:31 thats would return the list ( n-1 n) no ? 23:36:02 i have no clue what the question nor the problem is. unless someone else does, try again 23:36:30 I'm trying to learn how to debug recursive logic 23:36:42 try writing out the recursion manually: swap out the (mk-list (+ n 1)) in your code for what you think it should expand to 23:36:52 bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:57 i had an attempt at doing that but got lost in the consing 23:36:57 In number theory I work with alot of these problems...recurrence relations 23:37:32 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:38:20 ok...and I've been reading that consing is not needed after the 'academic' introduction to it...cons only serves as a way of teaching how cons cells work I guess. Right? 23:38:49 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:50 i used a cons cell in my example. i often turn to cons 23:38:56 ok 23:39:02 for reference, here's how I'd write that instinctively: http://pastie.org/5121362 23:39:20 i don't -think- that does anything too stupid but I'm no expert myself. 23:40:20 Can't wait to learn macros...gosh Lisp is seriously the most powerful language. From what I've read it can do anything because of it's wff like syntax...and if it can't do something one can just make a 'new lisp' that can 23:40:36 "well-formed-formula"? 23:40:50 yes wff 23:41:01 from predicate logic 23:41:19 paultreselli: the amazing thing about macros is how little you need them, but how hard they are needed when you do need them :) 23:41:24 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:41:46 s/little you need them/few of them you need/ perhaps 23:41:48 i'm not sure what syntax has to do with well-formed-ness 23:42:24 Bike : Lisp ,being a formal language- is very much like wffs 23:42:56 proper wffs are surrounded in parens 23:43:17 most programming languages have formal syntaxes, it's just that the parsed structures are harder to manipualte 23:43:30 right 23:43:44 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 23:43:53 but Lisp ,more than any other langauge, has a closer mapping to proper wff 23:43:56 Bike: he's saying that the syntax of lisp is similar to him. which is one less obstacle to overcome 23:44:05 guess I'll drop it, then. 23:44:22 mad...lol,haha 23:44:22 in lisp there are 5 things to learn afaik, "()", "'", "#'", "," and ",@" 23:44:24 just don't overthink it, it's not formalized correctly :) which is ironic, i guess :) 23:44:50 in term of syntax 23:44:54 Ralt_: there are a few dozen reader macro characters. 23:45:03 and ' and #' are actually just aliases 23:45:17 well, they're all 23:45:22 Bike k 23:45:26 For example: '#(#'#:|#|) 23:45:43 i guess you should think about it from two perspectives. one is: what do i need to know to get started. the other is, how much farther can i go. 23:46:15 pick one, don't show it to your conversational partner, and argue to death! 23:46:39 Well wff has very simple rules: let set S := {s0,s1,s2, ..., sn } be propostions having true or false values...then for all x in S x is a wff 23:47:33 then so is ~x, ( x ^ y ) , ( x & y) , ( x -> y),etc y also in S of coz 23:47:46 You neglected to explain the syntax of prepositions there. 23:47:50 Propositions* 23:48:14 actually I did 23:48:19 Not that those rules ar emuch harder, of course. 23:48:34 do you mean: you like that lisp expressions are more nestable than in other languages? 23:48:50 yes Pete 23:49:03 yes, the lack of needing to remember precedence orders is pretty nice. 23:49:14 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:17 DrPete: nesting in WFF is done by parens, it's the same in lisp. in other languages you need to throw commas and such in there. 23:49:17 I just like the 'functional' , very mathematical like notation 23:49:37 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010214.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:41 right 23:49:43 paultreselli: what book are you reading? 23:49:51 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:01 perhaps I'm just being anal because I was just reading about wffs of a different syntax for prepositions. 23:50:04 quick lisp question: '(1 2 3) is the same as ((1 2 3)) which is also the same as (list 1 2 3)? 23:50:20 no 23:50:22 ( mad for lisp ( ? )) 23:50:26 not sure about the list thingy. 23:50:42 -!- loopy [1f6e0fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.110.15.208] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:50:43 Ralt_: no 23:50:57 i was thinking especially e.g. if( switch(a) { ... } ) is not valid C, but (if (cond ...)) is valid lisp 23:50:59 paul grahams 'on lisp' and I bought Land of Lisp 23:51:04 LoL 23:51:06 haha 23:51:10 '(1 2 3) will evaluate to a quoted list. ((1 2 3)) won't evaluate, but is the printed representation of a list of a list of 1, 2, and 3. (list 1 2 3) will evaluate to a fresh list of 1, 2, and 3. 23:51:13 Ralt_: ((1 2 3)) will A) not run, B) if it would mean something because you added a quote in front of it, it would mean '((1 2 3)) which is (list (list 1 2 3)) 23:51:19 -!- CrazyEddy [~schoolmas@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:25 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 23:51:39 DrPete: due to C's distinction between statements and expressions. 23:51:41 Ralt_: Bike adds the fact that #'list gives you a fresh/new list, which can be important 23:51:45 oh right, my bad 23:51:45 yeah. 23:52:02 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 23:52:19 i had a friend come to me the other day talking about how excited he was to find out about what you could do with "just ifs", and I kind of wanted to shout at him... 23:52:30 wait, what's the difference between '(1 2 3) and (list 1 2 3)? 23:52:35 paultreselli: if you like the mathematical style, you'll probably like On Lisp. remember, lisp is multi-paradigm. Paul Graham steers away from objects and has a bit of an odd style that's not the most common these days. just so you know :) 23:52:45 Ralt_: the first is constant. 23:52:53 is "The little lisper" a recommended book? 23:53:08 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:08 Ralt_: you're reading the PCL, it's better :) 23:53:10 Bike and the second is a new object, that's it? 23:53:21 usually, yes. 23:53:22 madnificent k, I'm reading it online though 23:53:28 I was once told the only modern use for ASM is to make a C compiler...I guess from that I might add that the only use for C is to make a Lisp compiler\intepreter,Lol 23:53:30 Bike k, thanks :) 23:53:43 Ralt_: '(1 2 3) is a literal, and as such it will be a constant embedded in the code. (list 1 2 3) calls a function which will build you a list :) 23:53:48 paultreselli: untrue 23:54:11 paultreselli: whoever told you that was pretty wrong, just so you know. 23:54:15 yes, thanks mad...I wish I could really throw myself into Lisp but I have too many other burdens 23:54:18 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:54:21 also, after reading a bit more about PS2... the only two languages that worked right there were assembler and a certain Lisp ;) 23:54:23 assembly is often used in performance critical code to improve a little bit of code 23:54:44 Ralt_: not really often anymore 23:55:00 "in little bits of code" :-) 23:55:03 Ralt_: it is, however, quite common in DSP world, where the macro assemblers didn't die out 23:55:10 DSP? 23:55:10 ASM is used for streed-cred! 23:55:12 kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13EA42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 and in older consoles that had chips that made you go "WTF?" 23:55:18 digital signal processor. 23:55:39 Ralt_: Digital Signal Processing, and in case of assembly, specific to specialized chips 23:55:48 yep, reading that on wikipedia 23:55:52 also assembly is common in µC 23:55:58 well obviously asm has its uses...but for working on real ,current computing problems, I can't see how asm is helpful 23:56:23 paultreselli: depends on the problem 23:56:26 as well, you don't need C to make a lisp compiler, and it probably isn't the best choice for doing so, so the aphorism manages to insult everybody! 23:56:33 afaic ,Lisp is all about abstractions...just like every other modern lang 23:56:35 you know, "current computing problems" is not only your OS or a web server :-) 23:57:02 asm is good for the soul anyway, even if you'll never use it 23:57:20 there is a lot of embedded systems for specialized chips in many industries 23:57:56 well, sorry to ruffle feathers...and when I took Ee class we had to code small dos debug asm code....*sigh* 23:58:34 Meatball_py [~user@110-174-178-154.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:58:35 it was sorta fun....but Arduino and C lot more fun 23:58:49 Ralt_: it depends, but much of our current infrastructure requires data input (for which embedded systems can be good in some cases) and data processing (for which web servers can be good) 23:59:06 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13FCCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:59:13 oh, since there are more people here now, I may as well ask again - why can't compound function types be used for discrimination?