00:01:19 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 00:02:09 hi 00:02:18 please I need help with this macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133355 00:03:04 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 00:03:13 (macroexpand-1 '(usb::read-loop (*a* *b* 'usb::forever))) 00:03:13 NIL 00:03:13 T 00:03:14 what kind of help? 00:03:53 if I use the symbol, the macro won't expand correctly 00:05:16 try a keyword. why do you want to put three different things under the same name anyway? 00:05:23 (macroexpand-1 '(usb::read-loop (*a* *b* 0))) (LOOP USB::FOR #:G1510 USB::FROM 0 USB::BELOW 0 DO (LET ((*A* (SETF #:G1509 (LIBUSB-FFI:USB-BULK-READ *B* 1 64 10000)))) (WHEN *A*))) T 00:05:46 try a keyword 00:05:57 ? 00:06:00 how? 00:06:08 instead of 'forever, use :forever 00:06:16 ok 00:06:20 not saying that this will solve the problem, it is just something i'd try 00:06:47 (defmacro read-loop ((data device-handle &optional &key mode) &body body) 00:07:32 no, like change (eql mode 'forever) to (eql mode :forever), and then (usb::read-loop (*a* *b* :forever)) 00:08:14 Bike: ok, but what is the macro definition? 00:08:26 you can keep the lambda list the same 00:08:43 ((data device-handle &optional mode) &body body), that is 00:08:50 ok 00:09:08 bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-63.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:29 Bike, H4ns: works! 00:09:32 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-63.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:34 Bike, H4ns: thank you 00:09:41 Posterdati: you want (macroexpand-1 '(usb::read-loop (*a* *b* usb::forever))) 00:09:47 (macroexpand-1 '(usb::read-loop (*a* *b* :forever))) (LOOP (LET ((*A* (SETF #:G1511 (LIBUSB-FFI:USB-BULK-READ *B* 1 64 10000)))) (WHEN *A*))) T 00:10:02 Posterdati: macro arguments are not evaluated, so 'forever become (quote forever) 00:10:10 bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-63.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:14 for future reference, cl-user::forever is (probably) not eql to usb::forever, either 00:10:28 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:28 ok 00:10:34 Posterdati: but again, the macro looks shitty. use three macros when three distinct iteration types are implemented. 00:10:42 so it is better to use (quote forever)? 00:11:01 Posterdati: that way, it will be much easier to figure out what is going on. 00:11:19 Posterdati: not at all, for the (quote forever). i just told you to help you understand what's going on. 00:13:56 H4ns: how can I force to evalluate to 'forever? 00:14:13 Posterdati: why do you want that? 00:14:36 I don't want to use :forever 00:14:42 for example 00:14:46 why not 00:14:55 Posterdati: you can use usb::forever 00:15:08 Posterdati: if you insist on writing that unidiomatic macro at all 00:16:27 H4ns: do you mean to write read-loop-n read-loop-forever, read-once instead? 00:17:10 hello lispers :) 00:17:10 Posterdati: something in the lines of that. usually, i let iteration macros begin with "do" 00:17:23 Posterdati: and read-once, why would that be a macro at all? 00:18:00 yes it could be killed 00:18:12 Posterdati: what symbol 'forever becomes is dependent on the current package at read-time 00:18:38 Someone else is doing USB from lisp? 00:18:42 jasom: he always used a quoted symbol 00:18:54 jasom: erm, a qualified symbol, sorry 00:19:10 H4ns: ah, I didn't notice that 00:20:17 -!- clariprincess [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:21:20 clariprincess [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 00:21:43 rootlocus [~rootlocus@101.119.15.249] has joined #lisp 00:21:49 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:22:25 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.50] has joined #lisp 00:22:29 H4ns: I was thinking to use only one macro with the same body that's why I'm trying to design the macro that way 00:23:02 same body, but different loop 00:24:48 Posterdati: design your macros so that they are idiomatic when used, even if that makes them slightly harder to write. 00:25:10 Posterdati: if want to reuse the body, use another macro that is used by your iteration macros. 00:25:15 what do you mean for "idiomatic"? 00:25:43 Posterdati: "idiomatic" means "the common way how things are expressed" 00:26:40 H4ns: in that case did you mean that it's better use do-xxxx name for that kind of macro and to write a macro for every different kind of loop? 00:27:24 Posterdati: right. that'd be more idiomatic. you should also ask yourself whether the special iteration macro adds any real value. 00:28:21 i.e. why is (usb:do-forever (...) ...) better than (loop for x = (usb:get-something) do ...)? 00:28:26 H4ns: well I see that some code is repeated in a function 00:28:31 Fare [~fare@p18229-ipngn100402kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:29:02 should (defconstant +foo+ 3) #.3 work? 00:29:14 H4ns: well I'm still studying, so I'd like to experiment with macros too 00:29:19 er #.+foo+ 00:30:01 Posterdati: if you study macros, using macros properly should be part of your studies 00:30:10 aha, an implementation *may* choose to ... so I guess it's not required to work without an eval-when clause around the defconstant 00:30:13 H4ns: sure! 00:30:26 H4ns: thanks for the help 00:35:19 -!- nlpplz [~nlpplz@24-176-224-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:36:15 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@101.119.15.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:30 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:27 kindergip [~IceChat9@24-207-14-200.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:40:51 http://newlisponrockets.com 00:41:24 Just to point out, this is a Common Lisp channel. 00:41:42 I personally am not offended by newLisp stuff in this channel, I go off topic sometimes, but others might be 00:42:00 can't start a conversation without a topic.... 00:42:03 :) 00:43:10 " So for Rockets, all my usage statements are in fact examples, albeit using names and strings that describe their actual function. So for example (open-database "database name") is both the usage and the example of opening a database." 00:43:57 Well, that makes it harder to notice edge cases. I for one hate edge cases, but better that they be discoverable by reading documentation than by stumbling on them by accident. 00:44:13 :) 00:44:40 discussion of newlisp documentation problems clearly is off-topic for this channel 00:45:23 yeah, is more for #newlisp 00:45:24 it's not like there are forty simultaneous discussions going on that a few minutes cannot be wasted ragging on someone new :) 00:45:46 kindergip: go to #newlisp, discuss there. 00:46:11 daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 00:46:11 on newlisp...no one there...came to find some active voices and honest opinions 00:46:28 kindergip: not trying to rag on you, just letting you know that #lisp is specifically about Common Lisp 00:46:38 -!- daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 00:46:44 yes, me knows that...just looking for comments 00:46:47 I recently learned that there's a web page dedicated entirely to newlisp hate (: 00:46:49 I was sort of discussing Common Lisp vs. Clojure the other day 00:47:02 I think newLisp may be good for a codenomic... and not much else 00:47:12 kindergip: you don't go to a whiskey bar to discuss gin. 00:47:21 ooh, what page is devoted to "hate" haven't seen that one... 00:47:58 kindergip: maybe #lispcafe then? 00:48:09 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:48:16 hey jasom, thanks... 00:49:38 ya, I can't really get off on hate stuff or outright rejection - you know on religious grounds - because lisp itself is in enough of a corner that very few come to the well no matter what dialect 00:51:02 kindergip: you're missing the point. we're very aware of the size of our corner, and we still do not feel that we need to include anything that has lisp in its name. 00:52:25 ok 00:54:35 j29doowi391 [~l123j0d12@199.21.149.243] has joined #lisp 00:55:22 nlpplz [~nlpplz@24-176-224-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:33 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:55:36 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:29 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:57:36 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:48 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:01:37 -!- xans [~luka@91.185.202.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:48 clariprincess1 [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 01:02:56 -!- clariprincess [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:03:46 ans [~luka@91.185.202.58] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:14:12 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:19:35 drewc: around? 01:20:14 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 01:22:12 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:40 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-63.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:17 PuercoPop [~user@190.234.242.91] has joined #lisp 01:35:52 -!- linse [~marioooh@216.252.92.228] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 01:36:44 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:07 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 01:39:49 linse [~marioooh@216.252.92.228] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 common-lisp.net is down and I need slime - any github repo or alternate? 01:40:44 cpc26: There's quicklisp. 01:40:56 thanks! 01:43:46 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:24 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.229.78] has joined #lisp 01:47:10 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:29 I am here, the entire company the hosts the dedicated server that cl-net is on is not live, looking into it now. 01:48:29 bytemark ? 01:48:36 at least I moved cliki.net from that company .. cl-net was next on my list... 01:48:54 nah, bitrefinery.com 01:49:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:49:18 I am on a bytemark machine now, via ssh from my laptop 01:49:24 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.229.78] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:49:51 and cliki is on fdc servers ... sigh. 01:50:28 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 01:50:40 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:53:48 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-208-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:55:01 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:58:00 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.234.242.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:58:19 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:59:47 PuercoPop [~user@190.234.242.91] has joined #lisp 02:03:06 -!- gridaphobe [~user@128.54.34.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:39 ok, word is the network itself is down because of the cisco switch not working right, and will be back up shortly. 02:04:16 Thanks!! 02:06:26 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:06:58 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 02:07:15 the clhs entry for progv says: «If too few values are supplied, the remaining symbols are bound and then made to have no value.» What does this mean? (progv '(*x*) nil ...) gets me no boundp in both ccl and sbcl. 02:07:32 drewc: y they no redundant switch? :> 02:07:55 (sorry, I'm cranky after dealing with iffy router that surprisingly seems to work after blind prodding by someone else) 02:10:09 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-195-196.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:30 p_l: i am cranky as well, no need to apologize! I have servers with two other companies that I will be moving the VPSs that are down to.... 02:11:15 but that does not make this good at all, esp for my clients who use those servers! 02:11:17 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:11:52 (oh ... and common-lisp.net/org ) 02:20:36 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-127-114.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:21:33 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:21:44 so why is SBCL 1.1.0 called 1.1.0 and not 1.0.59? 02:22:54 mathrick_: it was discussed on sbcl devel. i don't remember the upshot. it's not anything special. 02:23:08 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:08 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:44 I see 02:24:43 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 02:25:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:26:03 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:25 mathrick_: 1.0.59 was getting silly. 02:26:30 howso? 02:26:41 it seems pretty clear 02:26:54 progression without revolutionary changes 02:27:08 I'd expect 1.1.0 to be a milestone in some way or another 02:27:11 1.1.0 is getting broked threads on windows. 02:27:16 oh 02:27:29 gengc on sparc/solaris and sparc/linux. 02:28:03 pkhuong: hmm, s/broked/brokered/? 02:28:13 A lot of other not really revolutionary changes have happened since 1.0. 5 years is a long time. 02:28:18 mathrick_: no, borked, sorry. 02:28:45 wait, I'm confused. Getting borked threads is a feature now? 02:28:56 Over none at all? Yes. 02:29:06 teggi [~teggi@113.172.62.161] has joined #lisp 02:29:39 ah, hmm, I was under impression there were threads, they were just known to be broken in many situations 02:29:41 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:41:40 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 02:42:15 brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:23 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:56:56 -!- linse [~marioooh@216.252.92.228] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 03:00:16 (hello :from 'ILC2012) 03:02:37 -!- benny [~user@i577A876A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:04:07 Fare is big in Japan 03:04:16 snrk 03:04:46 ok, cl-net is back up ... 03:05:08 of course it went down during the day @ ILC ... sigh. 03:07:56 sykopomp, at least I'm taller than average, unlike in the US. 03:09:02 pkhuong, thanks a lot for your mail! 03:09:33 Fare: Ah *literally* huge in Japan ;-) 03:10:05 -!- Fare is now known as Godzilla 03:10:07 Fare: I also forgot. I'm on the fence re (cons pattern pattern) or just (pattern . pattern). The former is easier to extend clearly, but the latter so much more convenient. I 03:10:17 hahahaha! 03:10:22 -!- Godzilla is now known as Fare 03:10:48 pkhuong, `(pattern . , pattern) 03:10:57 at least, using fare-quasiquote. 03:10:58 Fare: and bring cl-quasiquote in? 03:11:07 what is cl-quasiquote? 03:11:17 should I kill fare-quasiquote and adopt cl-quasiquote ? 03:11:26 I think that's what the hungarians are calling it 03:12:00 oh. It's doing much more than fare-quasiquote (which is just plain old quasiquote) 03:12:01 Anyway... If you have more thoughts on that other issue, do reply. 03:12:21 I'll try to talk to the author, I believe he is at ILC 03:14:57 -!- clariprincess1 [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:15:09 http://himera.herokuapp.com/synonym.html <-- "Closure and counters in loops": hate to break it to you guys, but your "proper lexical scope" is getting it wrong 03:15:53 people really focus on that loop thing a lot, huh 03:17:18 clariprincess [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 03:17:19 mathrick_: Ah, those poor souls who correctly identify phenomena, but link them spuriously. 03:17:40 yeah 03:18:07 -!- clariprincess [~princesit@190.200.20.138] has quit [Client Quit] 03:18:41 it's a matter of implementation whether you have a new binding or not on each run, and either way can be more convenient depending on what you want to do 03:19:25 well, it's well-defined in javascript: you don't. 03:19:27 and for what JS does, only the latter is correct behaviour 03:19:30 yeah 03:20:41 it'd be terribly non-lexical if the i's referred to different things 03:22:41 tcr [~tcr@112.214.127.153] has joined #lisp 03:24:08 cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:25:02 man, clojure sure loves its punctuation 03:26:31 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:27:21 -!- Fare [~fare@p18229-ipngn100402kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:31:34 *p_l* is tempted to spearhead a slime release, with inclusion to elpa, just to see clojure people get their emacsen all broken for once 03:33:08 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 03:34:04 Which is why we forked a version of it for Dylan... 03:36:44 ArmyOfBruce: did you at least make sure that it could load at the same time as normal SLIME? 03:36:53 If yes, I'm fine with it. 03:37:04 p_l: I didn't do it, but pretty sure the answer is yes. 03:37:32 -!- dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:37:34 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:45 OTOH, Clojure requires ass-old SLIME, or at least did last time I checked (few months ago?), and seems there is no will to update... meanwhile even the swank protocol went through incompatible changes 03:38:29 it seems the clojure community is moving to something not based on SLIME. 03:38:32 nrepl or something 03:40:09 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:40:40 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:49:10 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:49:37 -!- CoverSlide [~richard@pool-173-55-83-220.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:50:22 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 03:52:27 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:37 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:39 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has joined #lisp 03:55:13 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:55:21 clojure is moving to lighttable, the ide of the future 03:55:47 it supports this new paradigm called 'interactive' development. 03:55:56 pretty hot stuff 03:56:03 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:08 -!- j29doowi391 [~l123j0d12@199.21.149.243] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:56:42 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:56 Fare [~fare@p18229-ipngn100402kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:56:59 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:58:45 dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has joined #lisp 04:00:15 lol 04:02:22 interesting 04:04:19 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:05:42 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 04:06:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:09:43 -!- Fare [~fare@p18229-ipngn100402kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:12:42 -!- cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:16:18 CoverSlide [~richard@pool-173-55-83-220.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:58 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: cpc26] 04:23:28 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:04 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:18 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 04:30:13 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:30:21 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:09 this lighttable resembles what is explored in this project www.subtextual.org/i 04:34:18 www.subtextual.org 04:34:21 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.100.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:34:25 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:34:42 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:15 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:30 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:41:49 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 04:43:07 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 04:46:33 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:49:14 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has left #lisp 04:49:15 Fare [~fare@p18229-ipngn100402kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:49:45 I must say, I receive that many interesting infor from lisp community 04:49:48 it's amazing 04:53:35 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 04:56:54 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-81-169-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:49 mathrick_, you still there? 04:59:55 I think the example is a bit confusing 05:00:43 -!- tcr [~tcr@112.214.127.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:03:07 Well, what in particular is the problem? 05:03:37 benny [~user@87.122.123.0] has joined #lisp 05:03:48 pkhuong? 05:04:07 with dolist and such it isn't defined whether each iteration makes a new binding or just alters the old one 05:04:35 the problem is that the clojure thing makes out explicitly defining that it does out to be "proper lexical scope", which is misleading 05:04:45 closure, sorry. 05:05:40 Hmm, a bit confused. Are you saying that the ClojureScript thing is saying that its way to do things is the only proper way when it isn't? 05:06:27 more that the issue of proper lexical scoping is something else. 05:06:56 you can have proper lexical scope and define iteration constructs to not establish new bindings each iteration. it's orthogonal. 05:06:58 And this is the issue of proper closures. 05:07:18 what? 05:07:31 lexical scoping != closures, from what you're saying> 05:07:32 ?? 05:07:35 *? 05:07:44 no, no. 05:08:25 Oh, hmm, I think I understand. You're saying it's fine, at least in terms of lexical scoping and closures, for things to vary 05:08:39 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:09:17 gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 05:09:35 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10:05 you can have doseq expand into something like (let (elem) (tagbody :top (setq elem (first seq)) ... (setq seq (rest seq)))), in which case you'll be unpleasantly surprised if you build closures like that, but it's still valid lexical scoping within that expansion 05:10:20 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.121] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:11:35 and of course you could do (dotimes [i 2] (let [(i i)] bla bla make closure here)) to force a new binding. mod me knowing how closure syntax works. 05:11:45 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.88.105] has joined #lisp 05:14:07 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:11 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.88.105] has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:17 Beside emacs and stumpwm, is there any well known program written in lisp? 05:14:35 maxima's pretty well known. 05:14:54 Ah, cool. I did not know it was written in lisp. I have been using it. 05:15:41 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 05:15:47 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 05:17:23 Is there any other examples? 05:17:23 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 05:17:37 Anyways, so what criticisms of Clojure are there? 05:17:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:17:46 *Sgeo* is a bit of a Clojure fan right now >.> 05:17:46 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:54 Actually, I do have complaints 05:18:13 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has joined #lisp 05:18:35 I think nikodemus the other day said the lisp-1 annoyed him 05:19:03 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:23 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has joined #lisp 05:20:01 mrcarrot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Common_Lisp_software jak and daxter, I suppose 05:20:01 I think Haskell has made me very ingrained with the Lisp-1 idea 05:20:22 And Clojure takes at least some of the hygiene issues with Lisp-1 + CL-style macros away 05:22:06 Sgeo: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 here's some criticism for you. possibly good for a laugh 05:22:32 Bike: Thanks 05:22:50 Does machine code count as black magic? 05:23:08 Because every use of a language will end up calling machine code instructions 05:23:22 Although hmm, when I mentioned that in another channel, someone talked about bedrock abstractions 05:23:26 not if you run it in your head! 05:23:45 Clojure is a bit too tied to the JVM in my opinion, with ugly stack traces being the worst symptom 05:24:01 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:03 though, to take loper seriously for a moment, it is pretty nice to be able to M-. implementation functions in CL. I don't know if you can do that in Clojure. 05:24:54 Not sure. A lot of the core library is in Clojure, although I think some of it is in a bootstrapping sort of Clojure, then earlier constructs replaced with fuller constructs 05:25:01 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:25:19 But there are parts in Java, and not sure if whatever tools there are for Clojure in emacs can point to that 05:25:55 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:29:26 Hmm, Loper in a comment linked to a video 05:29:33 Which? 05:29:53 Clojure's interactive development isn't ideal, but not sure if Stanislav knows its limitations or not 05:29:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xl-EgAe_a0 05:30:55 oh, I liked the last video he posted for that. something from ILC I think. 05:31:43 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:31:55 Hmm, is he referring to the fact that Clojure isn't image-based? 05:32:58 "Clojure does not even have a condition and restart system. And, the way it is designed, it appears that it is fundamentally incapable of being retrofitted with such systems." 05:33:28 Wow, really? All you need is lexical returns, closures, and dynamic scope 05:33:52 The first part is correct. The second part is only correct if you insist on perfect maintaining compatibility with easy to use Java interop and old code 05:34:01 "lexical returns"? 05:34:08 er, like block/return-from, I mean. 05:34:13 hmm. 05:34:15 what is that 05:34:32 I don't _think_ Clojure has lexical returns 05:34:39 I think someone has done a condition system though 05:34:46 Unfortunate. Maybe you could rig something up, however. 05:34:53 doomlord: What is what? 05:35:08 'lexical returns' 'like block/return-from' 05:35:15 In CL. 05:35:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.39] has joined #lisp 05:35:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.39] has quit [Changing host] 05:35:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:35:55 (block bar (print 'foo) (print 'baz) (return-from bar 7) (print 'botch)) => 7 ; FOO BAZ 05:36:55 I should attempt to find out if loop/recur is lexical or dynamic 05:36:57 is it any different to the 'return' statement i'm familiar with from c 05:37:18 doomlord, it's not restricted to returning from functions 05:37:25 You can also return from closures. 05:37:40 But otherwise yes, it's the same basic idea. 05:37:42 Bike, o.O wait what? 05:38:01 Oh wait can't use recur like that, that's only allowable in tail-call position 05:38:07 05:38:26 (block whatever (flet ((foo () (return-from whatever 9))) (foo))), that's all, sgeo 05:38:53 Of course if you let foo escape and then call it you'll get an error, because this isn't Scheme. 05:39:13 I don't know of a way to do lexical return in Clojure :( 05:39:19 There might be a way but I don't know it 05:39:21 :( 05:39:41 Sgeo: well, anyway, try macroexpanding some restart-foo in say sbcl, it's really pretty wonderfully simple to do near as I can see 05:40:28 Q re trivial-garbage: the description says "A finalizer is a hook that is executed after a given object has been reclaimed by the garbage collector." 05:40:42 "Note: function should not attempt to look at object by closing over it because that will prevent it from being garbage collected." 05:40:52 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:41:32 because then the hook will itself reference the value, yes. 05:41:37 I don't see how both of these sentences are true - either it has been reclaimed (and cannot or at least shouldn't be accessed anymore), or it has not been reclaimed 05:42:10 so the first sentence should read "just before a given object will be reclaimed"? 05:42:28 no, the point is that the object will never be reclaimed if your hook closes over it. 05:42:28 Bike, not sure what exactly I should try to macroexpand 05:42:31 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 05:42:59 Sgeo: any use of the condition system, I guess. 05:43:06 (block foo (return-from foo)) macroexpands into itself 05:43:07 Oh 05:43:18 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Client Quit] 05:43:31 Oh, no, sorry, I was referring to the condition system. Block and return-from are special forms, not macros. 05:43:44 Why is lexical returns needed for it? 05:43:48 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 05:43:56 I was vaguely under the impression that the entire system was dynamically-scoped 05:43:56 perhaps I'm misunderstanding the language... "reclaim" means it's been collected and recycled, right? 05:44:09 Well it's not. Any of block/catch/conditions can do the others, I think. 05:44:31 Sgeo: but like, when you do handler-case, that expands into a block, which the handlers return-from to. 05:44:45 flip214: something like that 05:45:38 Well, there's a port of cl-cont for Clojure 05:45:39 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:48 I'm sure with delimited continuations it could be written... 05:45:58 Probably. 05:46:00 so I'd read that the finalizer is called when the object _has_been_ collected - which would be nearly useless, of course, as embedded resources can't be properly freed 05:46:30 flip214: the gc is what does the freeing. your hook does something else. 05:46:44 Bike, also, macros have access to the surrounding lexical environment. Is that useful/helpful to this somehow? 05:47:14 Sgeo: it's unrelated. also, the environments macros have access to are pretty limited, they only have to have macro definitions and I think declarations. 05:47:25 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:47 <|3b|> flip214: usually you store whatever needs to be cleaned up separately from the object you set the finalizer on (for example by closing over it or whatever) 05:47:55 That + a dynamically-scoped try/catch 05:48:18 Bike, and I'm referring to Clojure macros 05:48:22 flip214: example: you have an object proxying for something in foreign memory. you want to release that foreign memory when your proxy is no longer needed in lisp. so you can do (add-finalizer proxy (let ((data (get-data proxy))) (foreign-free data))) or something. 05:48:32 Sgeo: Still pretty sure it's unrelated. 05:49:26 Bike: thanks for the explanations, but my argument is that the word "after" is wrong - at that time it's not allowed to use the object anymore. 05:49:38 quadrescence [b40a61e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.10.97.229] has joined #lisp 05:49:46 flip214: what's wrong about it? the finalizer is only ever called after the object is free. 05:50:08 <|3b|> right, you aren't allowed to access the object the finalizer is on 05:50:12 Bike, I have some outer macro, block, output code to define some variable lexically, and then set up dynamic try/catch and put stuff in a dynamically-scoped variable. I then have some macro, return-from, look at the dynamically-scoped variable for information, AND THEN it checks its lexical scope to see whether or not it's allowed to throw. 05:50:17 Does that work at all? 05:51:00 i guess you could do block/return-from like that, yeah. 05:51:18 |3b|: but why does it get passed in, then, if it's unuseable? 05:51:27 It doesn't. 05:52:16 Bike, hmm, could be some bad interactions with intervening try/catches 05:53:04 Bike: ah, perhaps I'm misunderstanding ... finalize is not a method I should define for my objects, but a function used to _register_ a handler. ok, misread the description. 05:53:34 Hello, I was wondering if it possible to compile LISP code. 05:53:46 #'compile 05:53:49 <|3b|> Sgeo: also make sure it handles recursion properly, and doesn't allocate when it doesn't have to, etc 05:53:57 |3b|, aieee 05:54:17 I am writing a game and all I can find are LISP interpreters. 05:54:30 quadrescence: try common lisp. ccl, for example 05:54:40 Common Lisp typically is compiled, but it might look interpreted 05:54:59 When you write a Common Lisp function, that function is turned into machine code and stored in memory like that, for many implementations 05:55:18 I am running on Vm Ware workstation 05:55:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:55:48 (defmacro block (name &body body) `(let* ((tag (list nil)) (blocks (acons ',name tag))) (catch tag ,@body))), (defun return-from (name value) (throw (cdr (assoc name blocks)) value)) 05:55:56 or something like that? 05:56:08 And several CL implementations allow you to output a machine-independent binary. Although that might be hard to distinguish from an interpreted language that produces binaries where the binary starts out with code for the interpreter 05:56:48 Bike, sorry, it would take me some time to process that 05:57:00 took time to write, too 05:57:04 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 05:57:50 What is blocks? 05:57:54 (Also, what is acons?) 05:58:23 (acons key value alist) = (cons (cons key value) alist), is all. blocks is an alist of lexical blocks. 05:58:33 CL-USER> (documentation 'acons 'function) "Construct a new alist by adding the pair (KEY . DATUM) to ALIST." 05:58:58 fourier1 [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has joined #lisp 05:59:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:00:17 basically it's just maintaining a lexical association of block names to manufactured catch tags. 06:00:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:00:49 -!- quadrescence [b40a61e5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.10.97.229] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:01:00 And I wouldn't even need to use &env then? 06:01:13 -!- fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:02:05 Oh, back to what started the conversation in the first place, Stanislav's thoughts 06:02:06 "Let me know when a Clojure system which halts on an error does something other than crash and spew JVM crud at me." 06:02:11 Yeah, that bothers me a lot 06:02:12 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:02:28 basically you're maintaining the environment yourself, so no, no need for &env 06:02:33 do closure macros do more with that? 06:03:53 Um, well, it's just that I've had some fun with it in the past few days, so I'm sort of thinking about it a lot 06:04:14 I'm interested in reified environments myself, is why I ask. 06:04:27 Ah, yes, that's easy 06:04:40 yangzhiwei [~yang@49.83.74.216] has joined #lisp 06:04:54 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:58 https://www.refheap.com/users/sgeo some code I wrote recently, there's similar but more involved on StackOverflow 06:05:27 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:05:43 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:05:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:06:02 liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 06:06:02 I don't think I know enough closure to fake knowing what that does, sorry. 06:06:12 http://ideone.com/1vuApl 06:06:19 -!- yangzhiwei [~yang@49.83.74.216] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:06:40 IdeOne has horrific syntax hilighting for Clojure 06:07:07 So it does, but I can understand it now, at least. So you have access to a lot more than macros. 06:07:41 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:58 and if &env is a hash, can you get values as well? 06:08:27 Is there a subseq that automatically takes the minimum of END and actual list length? 06:08:33 The values in &env itself are LocalBinding things that I don't think anyone understands 06:08:51 But, since you have the symbols, you can return code that results in values 06:08:59 I am all about things nobody understands 06:09:03 Lemme see if I can show you a macroexpansion 06:09:36 Bike, the code I wrote to attempt to get access to an &env at runtime was horrific, largely because quote doesn't seem to like unprintable objects 06:10:25 well they're not really intended to exist at runtime. you can do all kinds of crazy things with (intentional) access to environments like that. 06:10:58 ...what. 06:11:04 What? 06:11:07 http://ideone.com/Eoyc6K this is not at all what I expected 06:12:58 Eh, why not? 06:13:15 Oh, I see. 06:13:15 I expected the expansion to look like 06:13:30 (let* [a 1] {'a a}) 06:14:06 Well, hm. That could mean that macroexpand-all doesn't account for lexical environments properly. Or it could mean that macroexpansion isn't defined to make that proper. 06:14:21 Why do neither Clojure nor Common Lisp expose their internal macroexpansion services? 06:14:31 Isn't macroexpand-all essentially what's done? 06:14:55 Not sure. macroexpand-dammit is a pretty good way to do -all portably, though. 06:15:21 http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/defmacro <-- Am I not looking for docs in the right place, or am I just spoiled by the CLHS? 06:15:45 clojuredocs.org is the typical place to look for docs 06:16:01 But the documentation isn't perfect 06:16:36 And I think it's more likely that macroexpand-all doesn't account for lexical environments properly 06:16:55 is there not a #clojure that may be more appropriate? 06:17:17 The source code for Compiler$LocalBinding which the values of &env are https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L5550 06:20:18 « The values are internal compiler details, and probably aren't useful for user code.» seems so 06:20:28 -!- Nafai [~nafai@174-126-77-168.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 06:20:30 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 06:22:44 -!- SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:23:20 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:23:40 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 06:23:40 trying to find an table using chtml, but when I search for something that is a stp:element and have the local name "table", it always returns me nil 06:23:46 a table 06:24:01 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:25:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:25:49 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 06:26:08 jtza8 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08:24:50 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-yqouqoyesqccadif] has joined #lisp 08:25:53 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:42 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:30:47 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:32:54 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:34:04 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:20 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-93-168.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:34:52 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:04 I'm probably brainfarting about SORT predicates, can someone help me out? 08:41:07 (sort (list 3 5 100 4) (lambda (x y) (or (= x 100) (< x y)))) 08:41:30 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:46 ..can't make 100 be considered "smallest"? 08:46:24 ah, figured it out :) 08:47:08 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 08:47:46 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:16 frodef: missed the test for y? 08:54:41 right 09:01:39 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 09:01:46 guyal___ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:47 Hi, this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133399 I don't think the loop is respecting #'plusp the when condition in the beginning 09:03:25 I know the condition doesn't really reflect what Iw ant to do, but at least for the first sublist it's not respecting it 09:03:27 -!- guyal__ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:05 francogrex: what makes you think so? 09:05:09 <|3b|> are you expecting the WHEN to apply to the SUM clauses? 09:05:25 jdz: try it 09:05:43 it's evaluating log 0, while when 0 it shouldn't run 09:05:55 francogrex: i thought you want help with your problem... 09:06:19 maybe I should move the when condition outside the loop 09:06:33 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:06:50 |3b|: yes expecting that... but i have a feeling it doesn't 09:07:06 <|3b|> try AND SUM ... AND SUM ... 09:07:43 aha, ok, but that may work it's better to move the when outside the loop no? 09:08:12 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-93-168.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:08:59 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 09:09:56 <|3b|> if you can rearrange the code to make it cleaner, then do so 09:09:56 because within the loop it will only check whether the first sublist is all plusp and will rin the loop while ignoring the rest of the sublists 09:10:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:11:11 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:11:11 *|3b|* fails to parse that in a way that matches the way in interpret the code 09:11:57 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 09:12:04 *|3b|* didn't see any obvious way to move the WHEN outside the loop easily, so i might be misreading the code... probably should be asleep already anyway 09:13:11 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:57 3b, yes me too; what I want is when any of the sublists for example has a zero element to stop processing and return nil 09:14:07 maybe within the loop may work 09:14:20 <|3b|> possibly you want WHILE instead of WHEN? 09:14:44 <|3b|> or ALWAYS 09:15:00 *|3b|* doesn't remember which of those returns NIL and which just exits 09:15:50 <|3b|> looks like ALWAYS returns NIL when it fails 09:16:28 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:19 always , yes true 09:17:24 always what I need. 09:17:36 *francogrex* kisses |3b| on the forehead 09:17:55 there is also no need for the ANDs 09:18:33 becomes: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133399#1 09:19:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:27 francogrex: are you using LOG instead of log to cause confusion? 09:19:52 what? 09:20:12 guyal__ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:17 francogrex: just a superficial suggestion: be consistent in your capitalization of symbols. 09:20:27 -!- ams [ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:20:42 H4ns: ah ok, yes the capitals was a copy paste from somewhere else 09:20:42 francogrex: you seem to use upper case for variables and lower case for everything else, but you don't do it consistently. 09:20:58 but you're right I should stay consistent, all downcase is preferable 09:21:05 francogrex: "i copy and pasted it" is not an excuse. 09:21:15 I know I agree 09:21:37 -!- guyal___ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:21:52 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:12 Fare [~fare@FLH1Acq098.kyt.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 09:22:47 ams [ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:33 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 09:27:20 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13FBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:30:26 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:30 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:14 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 09:41:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@73-063.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:42:01 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:46:46 aero1 [~aero@nat/hp/x-fqwgyacjhfamskfu] has joined #lisp 09:46:55 Is there something in lisp like C++ templates? 09:47:15 (could I do it with macros)? 09:47:25 no and yes 09:47:28 Yes, with macros. 09:47:37 aero1: macros 09:47:39 no, nothing like C++ templates, yes you could do it with macros 09:47:46 Macros are more expressive than templates. They both serves the same purpose: meta-programming. 09:48:05 -!- Fare [~fare@FLH1Acq098.kyt.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:48:05 The only difference may be that macros have to be called explicitely, while templates may be expanded automatically. 09:48:18 And a little bit of CLOS/AMOP where it makes sense (which are, after all, mostly macros anyways) 09:48:40 pjb: I was thinking making something like (defmacroedmethod ...) which expands it's arguments to find their types and (defmethod...)'s on those types 09:48:41 Indeed, often you just don't need templates or macros in CL, because CL is more generic and more dynamic. 09:48:48 (I'm a spitballing noob) 09:49:09 For example, you don't need a template to do (find 42 '(1 2 3 42 5 6)) (find 'hello #(a b c hello d e)) 09:49:28 For the same in C++, you would need to use templates, have the compiler duplicate code, etc. 09:49:30 well ok - take a look at something 09:50:02 https://gist.github.com/3945151 if I want to make this generic. For any type, would I just remove the type parameters on the defmethod? 09:50:05 Well, you could write a DSL with static type analysis, but there's little point in doing so. 09:50:18 (it's a binarytree) 09:51:41 You can do (defmethod insert ((n node) object &key (lessp (function <))) ...) 09:51:49 ah yes 09:51:53 So you can insert anything, as long as you give a compatible lessp. 09:51:54 just pass in the comparitor 09:52:10 Perhaps also you can set lessp into an attribute of the node, so you don't have to pass it. 09:52:19 I do something similar in C with fcnptrs 09:52:21 aero1: unrelated, but you should learn how to use cl:when, cl:cond and cl:unless 09:52:33 H4ns: I'll google them, thanks. 09:53:05 aero1: use http://l1sp.org/ rather to search CL operators. 09:53:17 Notice the one "1". 09:53:19 practical common lisp is a good book for experienced programmers, aero1 09:53:26 joekarma: I have that book :) 09:53:36 http://gigamonkeys.com/book 09:53:42 just making sure :) 09:53:45 joekarma: I picked it up about 1 year ago, Go/Erlang came into my life about the same time and I put Lisp on hold 09:53:46 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 09:53:49 coming back to it 09:54:33 Can I do pattern matching in Lisp? defmethod ALMOST feels like it so I'm going to say "it's possible"? and if not, I am sure macros could do it.... somehow 09:54:53 Sure. There are several pattern matching libraries. 09:54:55 short answer is yes 09:54:59 -!- maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:55:23 ah, libs. It was my stopping block last time, I just could not figure the ecosystem out 09:55:34 ok - coffee break. Back soon. 09:55:49 And indeed, with defmethod, you can do some kind of pattern matching (only on classes) or even implement monads (with method combinations). 09:55:53 quicklisp is the way to go 09:56:36 I suppose lisp's destructuring operations are a form of pattern matching... 09:56:44 Too. 09:57:09 Well, it's a one shot and signal an error if failling. 09:57:49 But you could easily write a case-destructuring-bind macro using ignore-errors and destructuring-bind. 09:57:56 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [] 09:58:59 i find ignore-errors to be rarely good for anything. 09:59:02 when I was looking for pattern matching libraries I seem to recall finding toadstool to be the most full featured... Perhaps I didn't give cl-unification enough of a chance. https://github.com/kisp/toadstool 09:59:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:00:38 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 10:01:27 of course, there's always http://www.cliki.net/pattern%20matching 10:05:54 so, which one of you is going to write the book about modern common lisp development using quicklisp? :) 10:06:24 joekarma: "modern development" sounds fishy 10:06:25 Yourself! 10:06:35 You felt the need, so you know what to put in it! 10:07:19 hehe I was actually thinking about it, pjb... Probably not the most qualified to write such a book though as I've only been using Lisp /seriously/ for about a year now 10:07:52 You'll become qualified by writing it. Ask gigamonkey about it! 10:08:30 it just occurred to me now that I remembered Quicklisp came out /after/ gigamonkey's awesome book 10:08:34 And you can ask advice here and on cll if you have doubts. 10:10:21 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:22 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:10:22 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:12:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:16:07 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 10:17:48 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:17:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:19:38 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:41 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:40 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 10:21:09 So re:ecosystem 10:21:23 Is there something like cpan/go get/package manager for lisp libraries? 10:21:32 aero1: quicklisp 10:21:37 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:22:07 *aero1* googles... 10:23:10 oh neato 10:23:15 this looks pretty good 10:23:28 it is indeed 10:24:08 sudo pacman -S quicklisp ; error: target not found: quicklisp 10:24:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:24:10 :( 10:24:58 aero1: you'll be best off ignoring your operating system's package manager when dealing with common lisp 10:25:24 aero1: i know it is sad and some people cannot accept it. it is very practical, though. 10:25:35 I don't like the sound of that, I'll admit 10:25:47 I tend to think "if it aint in version control, it doesn't exist" 10:25:52 aero1: a perfect world would be perfect 10:25:53 or a similar mantra for package managers 10:26:04 H4ns: true, I'll checkout quicklisp, though. 10:26:20 areo1 once you get over the initial hump things get much easier 10:26:20 aero1: quicklisp has regular releases. it is a centralized system. 10:26:45 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-68-82.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:27:12 aero1: just read http://cliki.net/ there are getting started pages to guide you in your first steps. 10:27:19 pjb: thanks 10:27:22 joekarma: true 10:27:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.84] has joined #lisp 10:27:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.84] has quit [Changing host] 10:27:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:28:08 I'm using clisp, I notice a lot of examples/tutorials use sbcl. Why is that? 10:28:29 aero1: sbcl has compiles to native code and has a large developer community 10:28:36 native code - sold 10:28:50 So, I would rarely need to extend it with C ? (if at all) 10:28:58 (I'm often re-writing python in C) 10:29:11 no you most definitely would not need to do that 10:29:19 yay 10:29:22 awesome 10:29:28 aero1: you may want to call c libraries, but rarely will you need to rewrite something in c that you've written in lisp 10:29:32 What is the general opinion about writing lisp with vim? 10:29:42 mrcarrot: use emacs 10:29:43 Is there any plugin I should absolutely have for using vim= 10:29:43 same applies to pretty much any lisp implementation though 10:29:44 ? 10:29:54 good stuff 10:30:02 H4ns: I was a bit afraid of this :/ 10:30:09 mrcarrot: slimv? 10:30:14 mrcarrot: there is a slime thingie for vim 10:30:57 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.146] has joined #lisp 10:31:07 joekarma: Thanks, checking it out. 10:32:07 mrcarrot: I wouldn't say you *have* to use emacs. it's just slightly better for lisp development right now. better to have a stack that the rest of the community is familiar with IMO, but can't fault you for using vim if you're already familiar with that 10:32:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.222.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:32:58 joekarma: I am a bit of odd person. I am using vim for editing and emacs for irc. I am no hater of emacs, but I think it lacks a good editor. 10:33:00 can progn tail recurse? 10:33:29 I feel learning emacs would be worth it. That being said, I came to emacs without having my mind corrupted by vim first :) 10:33:30 aero1: tail recursion is not specfied in common lisp, but many compilers support it. 10:34:01 H4ns: oh I thought it was spec :P TIL 10:34:04 aero1: but cl:progn "can" not tail recurse. you may want to re-phrase what you mean. 10:34:28 aero1: scheme speficies tail recursion and makes it the preferred form of iteration. cl does not do that. 10:34:44 I used first vim, then tried for a half year to use only emacs, got too frustrated in the end and ended up using vim again. 10:35:01 H4ns: aha, I thought maybe progn might not be able to apply the tail recursion optimization for some reason but I see that I am still not thinking in lisp 10:35:08 mrcarrot: fair enough 10:36:49 So, SBCL is more 'strict', it seems. Code runs ok in CLisp but not with SBCL. I like strict compilers. 10:37:21 Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:23 aero1: interesting, i've found non-compliance bugs in sbcl more often than clisp 10:37:33 bruno is quite paranoid about following the spec blindly 10:37:42 well, maybe it's just this particular script then 10:37:49 It seems to not like recursive defmethods? 10:38:07 what is a recursive defmethod? 10:38:19 a generic function that calls itself? 10:38:28 H4ns: yes, sorry if that's not hte right term 10:38:35 and I may be reading the compiler errors wrong 10:38:50 likely so. generic functions can be invoked recursively. 10:38:58 The testsuite with clisp is also a bit better than sbcl's... 10:39:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.222.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:26 Should I defgeneric before I defmethod a recursive method? 10:40:33 aero1: not required. 10:40:36 ok 10:40:51 aero1: most CL implementations compile to native code. ccl and ecl are good too. (ecl goes thru gcc, so it's good if you want to embed it into C/C++ application, or otherwise integrate it with C/C++ code). 10:41:08 aero1: sbcl warns you when you define a method for a generic function that does not exist, but that is just a style warning. 10:41:19 H4ns: right o 10:41:28 pjb: that sounds interesting 10:42:03 mrcarrot: emacs+paredit is a nice sexp editor. 10:43:01 paredit rocks 10:43:25 imho, it there should be something like that for hml/xml mode too 10:43:35 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:57 ams: very true! 10:44:15 ams: I was writing up some webpages the other day (not my dayjob, eugh) and I found the lack of paredit unbelievable 10:44:16 ams: you could just write all your HTML using who syntax 10:44:19 (this is emacs) 10:44:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@1.218.134.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:44:45 i have no issues with sgml mode, but it certainly requires me to close tags manually. 10:44:56 joekarma: i could also just write such a mode, or i could do other stuff, and i could save the world to... sorry, i don't have time to rewrite thingies just for the pleasure of it, gotta do some work you know.. 10:45:16 H4ns: just being able to do M-C-f kinda stuff would be helpful 10:45:52 I've been thinking about dumping a cl-who -> html convertor into a standalone executable so I could use the syntax when working with other programming languages 10:45:56 mm.. sgml-delete-tag 10:46:00 sgml-close-tag 10:46:06 H4ns: sgml-close-tag does it for you 10:46:13 ams: C-c / 10:46:16 I just feel that syntax is the best way to write xml / html, period 10:46:30 ams: i still need to type that, but i'm not using paredit either. 10:46:33 H4ns: what is that bound to? 10:46:43 well, maybe not xml due to the whole case sensitivity thing 10:46:44 ah, clsoe tag. 10:47:01 ams: nxml-finish-element to be precise 10:47:09 but that is off topic anyway. 10:47:34 good god .. sgml-delete-tag .. i love you 10:50:28 mrcarrot there's a pretty good vim emulator for emacs called Evil 10:53:05 kennyd: I have tried, but both evil and viper makes it difficult to follow tutorials for special modes in emacs. 10:53:40 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:54:11 mrcarrot: why not just learn emacs? it isn't that hard 10:54:19 there is an awesome tutorial included even ... 10:55:37 ams: I am using emacs even at this moment typing this sentence (erc) and I have been using it for a half year as editor. I just realized I am spending more time tweaking and reading documentation than actually getting stuff done. For editing, i really think vim is more efficient and has easier to remember keyboard commands. 10:56:17 bitonic [~user@host81-134-116-166.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:18 That probably will pass with increased familiarity then 10:56:18 mrcarrot: Well, each to their own, i don't tweak emacs; plain old defaults actually ... 10:56:37 And as for mmemonics, found vi's stuff hard to remeber .. 10:57:02 hjkl for example i can never figure out unless i'm sitting on a vt320 .. 10:57:09 (cause it has arrows drawn there) 10:57:59 That I have hard to believe: d=delete, w=word, f=forward, y=yank, p=paste, g=go, i=insert, a=append, q=quit etc 10:58:38 hjkl is the only thing more difficult to remember, and still the normal array keys are also working, so hjkl are not needed. 10:58:48 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 10:58:51 it's almost as if everybody isn't the exact same.... also, it's kind of like different people have different ideas. 10:59:22 Yep, and I did not mean to create any editor war as I do not hate either one of them but actually use both. 10:59:50 :) 11:00:24 mrcarrot: in all fairness, yank - C-y, C-k - kill, C-f - forwrd (char), M-f - forward (word), M-C-f - forward "sentence" 11:00:40 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has joined #lisp 11:01:20 fw = forward word. f = forward until that char. 11:01:31 tcr [~tcr@1.211.55.74] has joined #lisp 11:01:33 or just w to forward a word 11:01:39 mrcarrot: right, so what is your point? all those are basically equivialent in emacs memmonically wise 11:01:53 !editors 11:01:57 darn 11:01:59 :-) 11:02:07 phrik in #archlinux has that 11:02:11 w forwards a word, fw forwards until the w char 11:02:21 yep, i noticed and corrected. 11:02:35 ah, missed it 11:02:57 (I should sleep more) 11:03:11 mrcarrot: i was trying to show bindings that are hard to remeber 11:03:55 i find hjkl easy to remember, jkl is standard finger position for the right hand 11:04:22 never figuerd out which is up, down, left or right .. 11:04:36 then diagonals are even more fun ... hehe 11:04:57 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:04:59 left most is left, right most is right, so you only have to figure out which one is up and down 11:05:42 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: game over] 11:05:56 f - forward, b - backward, n -next, p-previous 11:05:58 :-) 11:06:07 leggo [~leggo@37.244.182.9] has joined #lisp 11:07:04 (and the whole insert mode thingie always confuses me) 11:07:24 am0c [~am0c@175.252.153.169] has joined #lisp 11:07:47 springz [~springz@118-163-74-175.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:59 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 11:08:02 that one takes getting used to 11:08:26 been using vi for 20+ years, never got used to it 11:09:26 (i love ed btw; perfer it over vi anyday) 11:11:10 Why does this blow the stack? https://gist.github.com/3945500 I was under the impression all those recursive calls are the in the tail position.... 11:11:24 clisp + sbcl 11:11:38 aero1: because common lisp doesn't have to do tco 11:12:09 ok 11:12:14 sbcl seems to be working actually 11:12:20 so basically clisp just blows chunks? 11:12:23 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 11:12:40 -!- echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:48 aero1: a common lisp implementation can blow stack, or itm ight not. 11:13:19 but I should use sbcl if I want deterministic tco? 11:13:20 both situations are ok 11:13:34 aero1: no, since common lisp does not state if it will do tco or not. 11:13:46 Hmm 11:13:52 I really thought TCO was spec 11:13:53 sbcl could remove tco tomorrow for all you know 11:13:58 aero1: if you want deterministic tco, you should use a language that guarantees ist. 11:13:59 aero1: no, never was. 11:14:11 aero1: did i not tell you that a few minutes ago? 11:14:14 You did 11:14:41 aero1: i wonder what made you believe that i lie? just curious. 11:14:55 H4ns: be nice. 11:15:07 H4ns: I didn't. I guess I just didn't listen :P 11:15:28 I thought clisp had TCO 11:15:31 ams: you discuss editors :D 11:15:45 H4ns: and? you're being rude. 11:15:58 hmm, so.... sbcl uses TCO, runs faster and has better error reporting.... what are the benefits of using clisp? 11:16:21 aero1: easier to port. 11:16:22 aero1: better debugging facilities, easier to port to other platforms 11:16:33 aha, so clisp is more conforming to spec? 11:16:37 aero1: hu? 11:16:45 smaller stand alone executable 11:16:58 yes, I noticed my sbcl compiled bin file was 50mb 11:16:59 aero1: the spec does not say "better debugging, easy to port are mandatory" 11:17:52 H4ns: I extrapolated "easy to port" as "conforms to spec better", I take it that was wrong 11:18:00 yes 11:18:03 aero1: and mind you, depending on tail call optimization is a bad idea. the compiler may choose not to optimize away tail calls at any time. 11:18:15 aero1: i meant clisp is easier to get running on new platforms 11:18:18 Clisp compiles to bytecode instead of machine code, that probably makes it easier to port 11:18:21 H4ns: oh ok 11:18:36 So H4ns how would you recommend writing this without TCO? https://gist.github.com/3945500 11:18:41 without depending on TCO* 11:19:05 aero1: by using a named variable to traverse the tree, not the stack 11:19:25 H4ns: I don't follow 11:19:50 aero1: recursion is not the only way to walk a tree 11:19:55 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-68-82.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:20:30 aero1: named variable and a loop, of course 11:20:59 aero1: you should really read a book or other text that introduces more of common lisp to you. 11:21:18 H4ns: I have PCL, I've set some time aside this week and next to try and read some 11:21:29 I'm just between projects at work so I'm brushing up on Lisp 11:21:30 aero1: do so now. 11:21:57 ams: :) I'd love to bust open a book at work but I need to look busy ;) 11:22:23 "I'm reading complicated specifications" 11:22:30 aero1: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 11:22:42 H4ns: yes! I forgot it was online 11:22:47 hi 11:23:13 In slime what is the preferred way of adding your own symbol completion on top of the regular one? 11:23:19 H4ns: hi 11:24:57 leggo: adding? completion? 11:25:40 I want to add completion for common qt functions 11:25:46 leggo: why would you want to do that? why not just hit M-\? 11:25:55 erm, M-/ 11:27:01 leggo: qt as in the gui framework? 11:27:33 Yeah 11:27:38 -!- Vinici [~Charles@177.43.35.91] has left #lisp 11:27:57 I love Qt in other languages 11:28:00 never used it with Lisp 11:28:40 *ams* will forever stick to clim. 11:30:22 Commonqt doesnt wrap qt classes and methods, it uses special syntax to directly call smoke bindings. So you dont get normal slime completion and argument hints 11:31:05 someone should like write a backend for clim for gtk/qt/whatever 11:33:17 think david wrote a gtk backedn ones, but it is so horrible outdated now 11:33:18 gtk has nicer lisp bindings, they are proper classes and methods. But i am not a ran of gtk 11:33:30 fan* 11:33:59 well, i like the buttons :-) 11:34:15 hence why i stick with clim, gives a standard interface for doing stuff ..; 11:36:04 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:37:48 About my question, in Common Qt you do (#_size window) to call a size. What functions/vars/whatever in slime should I look into to add my own completion for Common Qt 11:38:04 to call a size Qt method 11:39:18 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:41:25 lemmings [~lemm@89-69-92-247.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 11:43:06 Hi. I'm looking for known quotation. I thought that was Linus Torvalds, but it seems to be someone else. It was about closed drivers / no device documentation. Something alike "They should die and go to hell", in other words, and spoken by somebody known from OpenSource movement. Please, help me, how can I find ? 11:43:16 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:03 lemmings: doubt it is linus, he is quite keen on propietery drivers. 11:45:41 I thought it was linux, but i can't find exact quotation anywhere : < 11:45:55 "i can't find it anywhere, so #lisp is the right place to go to" 11:46:08 H4ns: but lisp is the answer to everything! 11:46:44 Just like that 11:46:45 lemmings: well, linux contains non-free software, so no, it wasn't from linux, more like alexandre olivia (sp?) or stallman 11:48:15 open source people tend to be quite friendly of propietery software... 11:50:58 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 11:51:51 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 11:53:29 How is lisp on the raspberry pi? 11:53:40 aero1: ccl runs quite well 11:53:42 juicy 11:54:01 They just open sourced the gpu specs, awesome 11:54:09 hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 11:54:53 aero1: https://plus.google.com/u/0/101473924494271635476/posts/2LDwW4xzaJf 11:56:21 H4ns: I take it this is you? 11:56:27 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:27 aero1: yes 11:56:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:02 H4ns: this is brilliant 11:57:13 aero1: thanks, but you've not seen how slow it is :) 11:57:45 H4ns: a commentor mentioned OpenGL, have you tried that yet? 11:58:39 aero1: no - would be interesting, though 11:58:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:58:55 H4ns: indeed. Mine is still "shipping"... damn polish post 11:58:55 aero1: http://informatimago.com/articles/raspberrypi/index.html 11:59:28 aero1: polak? 11:59:37 ams: nie, ale mieszkam w Wroclaw 11:59:45 ams: jestem z Anglii 11:59:48 ikki [~ikki@187.193.139.248] has joined #lisp 11:59:52 aero1: ah :-) 11:59:59 ams: a ty? 12:00:01 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 12:00:18 aero1: z poznania, ale mieszkam w szwecji 12:00:36 aha, szwecji == swizterland? 12:00:42 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:01:06 aero1: sweden ;-) 12:01:11 oops 12:01:13 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.216] has joined #lisp 12:01:57 -!- fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-33-2.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:01:57 -!- lemmings [~lemm@89-69-92-247.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:04:26 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-31-29.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: I'll be back] 12:06:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 12:08:18 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 12:10:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@175.252.153.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:35 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gyzsiezbzfevxvsp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:16:32 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-zrgdulgwuemvsgud] has joined #lisp 12:17:24 Sorry? 12:17:58 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:32 -!- leggo [~leggo@37.244.182.9] has left #lisp 12:22:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:24:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 12:25:20 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Client Quit] 12:25:41 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:25:50 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 12:26:51 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:27:43 Hmm, a bit confused. Are you saying that the ClojureScript thing is saying that its way to do things is the only proper way when it isn't? <-- yes, and it claims to be the only possible effect of "proper[ly implemented] lexical scope", whilst it isn't. Moreover, if JS behaved the way ClojureScript does, with its for(decl; check; update) syntax. it'd be terribly confusing and NOT lexical, since it establishes the binding ("decl") separately from up 12:27:43 dating it ("update") 12:30:10 note how in the "improper scope" (what JS does), it's function () { return i;} and i comes from external scope. That means it's not allowed to differ from the value the original i refers to, and that's 2 after the loop is done, because a closure captures the *binding*, and not just its value 12:31:10 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:49 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:31:54 Anyways, so what criticisms of Clojure are there? <-- it's way too punctuation-happy for me 12:31:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.139.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:32:00 there are 15 kinds of braces in use 12:32:54 and lisp-1 is worse than lisp-2 in my opinion, but this is very much a religious issue without correct answer 12:33:42 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 12:35:31 "I dont care if everypony really is more productive in Clojure than in Common Lisp. The latter is not my standard of comparison (Symbolics Genera, the state of the art, is [...])" <-- umm, but Genera wasn't *very* different from CL 12:36:47 actually, it was. 12:37:51 though maybe not as different as clojure is to lisp. 12:38:05 -!- Gurragchaa [u6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rrmpwxpmadddtnvb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:06 -!- varjagg [u4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-letkmhwyzvxnrovc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:06 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wdjfwtulicvdtlrw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:06 -!- rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iltsfbmfeaupaxez] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:06 -!- PuffTheMagic [u3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-icjpmzaawsiqsuvj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:09 mathrick_: lisp-1 is clearly superior! come to the light! 12:39:28 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:39:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 12:40:26 ams: AFAIK, it was still very much the same family of Interlisp, and more similar to CL than to any non-Interlisp dialect 12:41:06 eh, no 12:41:34 bolox machines ran zeta lisp which was directly decenant from maclisp 12:41:52 interlisp and maclisp had a lot of funky differences 12:42:32 xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:57 where interlisp comes into the cettle of what is the story of lisp is the object system from xerox was part of inetlisp or some variant which symbolix made into what was known as flavours, which was the basis for clos 12:43:09 other than that,no, zetalisp is quite different, and much nicer than common lisp 12:43:12 (or rather, maclisp) 12:43:19 hmm 12:44:15 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:44:23 Much nicer? 12:44:50 ams: does it have an easily available manual? 12:45:05 mathrick_: which? zeta? 12:45:16 or maclisp? 12:45:25 zeta 12:45:40 mathrick_: grab a lisp machine :) 12:45:47 i have three.. ;-) 12:46:04 mathrick_: or find the lisp machine manual from mit .. 12:46:17 that's what I'm reading 12:46:31 though the files are apparently XML, and chrome doesn't like that 12:46:47 ... lisp machine manual in xml? 12:46:54 did xml exist in 1970? 12:46:55 cibs [~cibs@219-87-142-18.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 12:46:56 Gurragchaa [u6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ubyrldgpeaeiqdkh] has joined #lisp 12:47:32 xml == horror 12:47:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47:42 http://www.unlambda.com/lmman/lmman_1.html 12:48:24 ams: it's the one converted by H4ns 12:48:40 http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/intro.xml 12:48:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:48:49 mathrick_: i wouldn't know. 12:50:10 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 12:51:15 PuffTheMagic [u3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mvrtpluxrizkjamr] has joined #lisp 12:51:16 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbagfdsfhjbzajry] has joined #lisp 12:51:20 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 12:51:29 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 12:52:18 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:55:27 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:39 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:55 mathrick_: uh, thanks for letting me know that the manual does not work in chrome. 13:01:20 H4ns: uh, right, didn't think of that. Sorry 13:01:29 but you can consider it a bug report! 13:02:14 mathrick_: i shall. i'll probably just render a html version of it. 13:02:37 that sounds sensible 13:07:22 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:49 lis [~lis@121.247.55.173] has joined #lisp 13:11:19 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:37 ams: I'd like to hear you expand on that suggestion that zeta lisp is much nicer than cl. I've no horse in the race, but am curious about the suggestion for learning purposes. 13:13:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:14:06 H4ns: also, the "Common Lisp Support" section is referred to by the TOC and the inline links in Intro itself by two different #anchors, and neither of them works 13:14:45 AFAIK, it's they're not really nicer. It's only that as system implementation lisps, they had some libraries allowing you to do some nice things, like locative or stack groups. But CL implementations have that too, only not standardized into CL. 13:15:08 Said otherwise, if you find something nice in another lisp, you can just implement it on CL as a library. 13:15:38 It can also be done to port old software to CL. Eg. Implement flavors instead of using CLOS to port a flavor application, if you don't want to touch its code. 13:16:23 the lack of locatives in particular is a pain 13:16:50 and realistically you can't implement locatives as a library that are as useful as real locatives 13:16:52 Locatives I think I remember reading about in chinual 13:16:57 because the overhead is huge 13:17:15 Not that I remember their usage, but I'll take your words for it thay are useful. 13:17:30 Cymew: they're essentially lispy pointers 13:17:32 s/thay/they're/ 13:17:38 and sometimes you need pointers to pointers 13:17:40 which CL lacks 13:18:13 I hate the pointer hell that C has, but it can't be that bad, I guess. 13:18:35 mathrick_: if you'd be so kind and opened github issues for the problems? https://github.com/hanshuebner/lmman 13:18:52 Cymew: it is really the tiny stuff that is nicer in maclisp (interpreter was dynamicclay scoped for example); better integration with ... well everything in zetalisp... 13:18:59 Cymew: it's not because pointers exist, it's because they're the only tool C has, and it also meshes with pointer arithmetics hell 13:19:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:10 which is not something that happens with locatives 13:19:11 pointers aren't that bad 13:19:15 H4ns: sure, hang on 13:19:27 I have seen a few implementations of Flavors, but none that I managed to use for anything. Not that I know much of Flavors, though. 13:19:38 specifically, debugging support in zeta was awesome 13:21:33 common lisp is ncie for programming, it isn't nice for actually using it. 13:21:38 (nice enough anyway) 13:21:51 Thanks for your thoughts, all. System integration and some other items apparently. 13:23:00 Well, CL is not a whole lisp machine, indeed. It's just the language. Up to you to implement the missing parts in the environment. Preferably not in emacs lisp. 13:23:18 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:23:19 I'm still unsure whether you can hold something with dynamic scope by default unless it's compiled (take that, principle of least surprise!) can be reasonably held as the gold standard of a programming system 13:23:51 err 13:24:03 s/you can hold // 13:24:07 pjb: i like emacs lisp far more than common lisp 13:24:19 I have had some ideas on how to improve the debugging support in the popular lisps systems of today (read: sbcl), after trying some of the commercial ones. It always seem to be improvements in debugging facilities that everyone would like to have. No surprise, really. 13:25:19 Cymew: care to summarise them? I haven't used commercial lisps so much 13:25:31 mathrick_: sbcl, emacs etc are commerical lispen 13:25:39 and by "so much", I mean "basically at all" 13:26:09 ams: uh, what? SBCL is not a commercial lisp, since there's no company working on SBCL as the product it sells 13:26:14 ams: well, now emacs lisp has lexical closures, and there's an implementation of emacs lisp written in CL, so you can be happy :-) 13:26:47 pjb: does the CL-elisp also include the functions from emacs? Since that's the real weight behind elisp 13:26:55 Actually, there are companies maintaining sbcl for a fee. 13:27:03 the actual lisp and its syntax are tiny in comparison 13:27:03 mathrick_: I made a list once, but I don't have it in my head. I just noted some small items that felt like less than circular wheels turning in the sbcl debugger. 13:27:09 mathrick_: no, not all the emacs library. Work in progress :-) 13:27:10 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:27:10 pjb: that doesn't make it a commercial lisp 13:27:11 mathrick_: sbcl is free software, so you can charge for it, and lots of people get paid to work on sbcl. 13:27:27 mathrick_: it is used for commerce, to earn money no? makes it commercial. 13:27:29 which doesn't make it a commercial lisp, thank you very much 13:27:31 maybe you mean propietery lisps. 13:27:52 Doubtful. 13:27:55 no, it's not maintained by anyone as the product they own and sell 13:28:10 Well, zeta lisp wasn't commercial either. You bought a lisp machine and got it for free. 13:28:10 and was not created with commercial purposes in mind 13:28:20 Well, I said like I did because I don't remember which one it was I tested. It had a "try before you buy" option on the webpage wheer it could be donwloaded, in contrast with sbcl. 13:28:45 pjb: it was written and maintained as a part of the lispm. It's like claiming the engine in your BMW is not commercial because you got it for free with the car 13:29:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@1.211.55.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:29:23 Cymew: that is fine, I'm far more interested in "what they do better than SBCL" anyway 13:29:31 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:29:32 mathrick_: just cause there wasn't a intent behind making money on something doesn't mean that it isn't commercial; the word just means that something is used to get money, for or in commerce, sbcl is definitly a commercial lisp, just like emacs or zeta. 13:29:35 mathrick_: don't muddy the matter with material analogies. Compare with how the system software was not sold until the antitrust suit against IBM. 13:29:54 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 13:30:11 note to self: don't engage in discussion with ams unless you don't expect logic to apply 13:30:34 pjb: it's a matter of focus very much 13:30:36 mathrick_: note to you: make notes to yourself in a way that only you can see them 13:30:56 *ams* goes and buys a beer that was not paid for money developing some stuff for sbcl. 13:31:05 and it's not insignificant; see SBCL and tree shaking for instance 13:31:08 (sarcasm and irony) 13:31:11 cornihil` [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:31:37 the reason it doesn't exist is precisely because there's not enough interest in SBCL, primarily because it's not sold as a product where the customer pressure would make it a sensible goal to pursue 13:32:09 *interest within SBCL 13:32:21 mathrick_: well, i have sold sbcl supprot and copies of sbcl. 13:32:25 so there. 13:32:38 mathrick_: I think the lisp I tried made it possible to frob symbols and then restart in whatever frame you found on the call stack or something like that, while sbcl only supported a simpler restart mechanism. It was ages ago, though and one excellent thing with sbcl is the speed at which it improves. 13:32:41 and clisp and gcl and whatever. 13:32:46 that is nice. But it doesn't make SBCL a commercial project. It makes it one that can be used to make money 13:32:50 -!- cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:55 mathrick_: so like any product. 13:33:02 nothing is a commercial product then :-) 13:33:41 sbcl's support for debugging is abysymal though 13:33:44 no. Nobody started SBCL to make money, and it'd be maintained without money still. It's not the case for commercial implementations which exist to make money 13:33:59 vince- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:34:02 a label that applies to everything ever is useless 13:34:20 and your definition of "commercial" applies to everything 13:34:31 And who cares about commercial? 13:34:47 Cymew: yeah, I was thinking about that, it's one area where I'd like SBCL to try much harder 13:35:17 You can write a good debugger in conforming CL, you don't need to make it implementation specific. 13:35:20 pjb: we just started the discussion from an off mention of "commercial lisp". Which is a useful thing to say 13:36:15 pjb: but frobbing things and then restarting precisely the frame you are in is not something you can really bolt on, unless my understanding of the CL debugger is horribly wrong 13:36:57 the debugger has to integrate with the underlying compiler, and there's no interface in the spec to allow that 13:37:08 mathrick_: no it's not. I would just implement another CL in CL :-) 13:37:25 =) 13:37:27 mathrick_: check my stepper :-) 13:37:30 pjb: link? 13:37:57 the stepper is interesting, I did actually attempt writing such a macro before, because I had trouble getting the SBCL stepper to work 13:38:34 http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/lisp 13:39:14 You could add debugging features to that code. 13:39:29 For example, to implement debugging-in-time, and stuff like that. 13:40:09 pjb: what exactly is "ibcl"? 13:40:34 and what do you mean by debugging-in-time? 13:40:40 It's a couple of macros (defpackage, defun, etc) that record the source sexps, so that you can later save them to a file. 13:41:09 oh, image-based CL? 13:41:12 There's a trick in that ibcl:defpackage substitutes CL by IBCL, so that you can work as if using CL when you actually use IBCL :-) 13:41:15 Yes. 13:42:11 (unless you qualify the symbols, I didn't write the reader macros that would be needed to substitute symbol qualifiers). 13:42:44 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:46 like CL:DEFUN vs just DEFUN? 13:42:52 Yes. 13:43:34 you could make a CL that refers to IBCL, and then have something like CL*: for the real, underlying CL 13:44:58 most implementations do something like that already .. 13:45:33 caadr etc is in SB!IMPL on sbcl for example 13:46:15 Yes, but when you're not the implementation, as conforming code, you cannot redefine CL, so you must use "tricks". 13:46:53 nod 13:51:49 -!- cornihil` [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:52:26 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:55:51 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:08 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:56:59 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:57:09 -!- matthiasgorgens [matthias@62.200.22.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:36 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:58 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 14:00:48 bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:30 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 -!- lis [~lis@121.247.55.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:58 lis [~lis@121.247.55.173] has joined #lisp 14:07:24 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyenqflctqbpkldu] has joined #lisp 14:08:13 getting memory errors in Qt after running a timer for 15-30 minutes: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133410 14:09:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-67.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:27 MoALTz [~no@host86-132-136-34.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:22 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:17:37 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:50 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@7-111-204-62-static.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:20:47 -!- lis [~lis@121.247.55.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:23:21 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:24:07 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:28:25 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:48 varjagg [u4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-btggrchhzuwceymt] has joined #lisp 14:29:59 pjb: "Editing units can A source browser shall allow the classification" 14:30:03 in http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/lisp/ibcl-notes.txt 14:30:09 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:31:07 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:07 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:35:17 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 14:38:05 mathrick_: yep sounds strange. Thanks, I'll edit it later. 14:38:43 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:40:48 I think we can just ignore that line, as a bad editing byproduct.. 14:40:55 yeah, seems likely 14:41:10 pjb: I also don't know by "valided" in "If an editing block is valided" 14:41:13 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-68-82.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:41:34 Sweet. SBCL 1.1.0 installed 14:43:10 mathrick_: I mean, the user can edit a block, and when done, "validate" to be entered into the system, or "cancel" to revert to the previous state. It's not done while the user edits the text. 14:43:46 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:43:57 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:28 ah 14:45:36 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 pjb: it'd be nice to fix it to say "validate" then, and define the term above, since it's not immediately obvious 14:46:26 Oh right. I didn't even read it wrong when you signaled it :-) 14:46:26 14:46:26 14:48:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:26 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:50 lemm [~lemm@89-69-92-247.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:56:12 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:25 -!- lemm [~lemm@89-69-92-247.dynamic.chello.pl] has left #lisp 14:56:29 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:05 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-135-006.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:59:21 Fare [~fare@FLH1Acq098.kyt.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 14:59:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:00:53 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:01:09 msmith [~msmith@50-79-238-214-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:55 _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 15:05:17 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 15:05:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:52 ams: honestly, there's very little difference between LM lisp and CL, as far as the dialect goes, and it's appropriately expressed by the manual stating that CL was originally expected to be a strict superset of it, but some cosmetic incompatibilities prevented that 15:09:33 flavours instead of CLOS and locatives might be the biggest actual differences 15:13:33 what was the search engine/site over clhs and (some) libraries again? (not lispdoc) 15:13:45 *Xach* only knows about lispdoc 15:14:23 really? i thought there was something with an index over common libraries or so 15:14:44 let's rephrase that: which library has (a) SUM? 15:15:13 -!- msmith [~msmith@50-79-238-214-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 15:15:16 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:04 I would love for someone to use quicklisp to make a quick way to answer that. 15:18:13 ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:13 ngz [~user@194.85.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:41 SsvRrwQ` [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 15:19:54 SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 -!- SsvRrwQ` [~user@24.68.50.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:52 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:23:00 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 how about it, internet? 15:24:09 hate to be the one with the leave message right after that line... But I have to go to work 15:24:13 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 15:24:15 nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:27:05 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:44 ferada: http://l1sp.org 15:27:47 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 15:28:00 oh yeah, that kind of has an index 15:28:01 pjb: Yes! Thanks! 15:28:19 sadly, no sum xd 15:28:29 (defun sum (seq) (reduce '+ seq)) 15:28:43 oh i have a solution, no problem there 15:28:48 Said otherwise, do you really want to name that function? 15:29:07 Just use (reduce '+ seq) instead of (sum seq). 15:29:45 more like this, http://paste.lisp.org/display/133412 , but generally we had a discussion about vector length? or something 15:30:33 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:15 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-67.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:24 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:31:41 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:33:09 -!- DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:59 http://lisp-search.acceleration.net/ 15:34:13 Xach, ferada: ^^^ 15:34:25 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 15:34:29 nice 15:34:39 it was down mysteriously, and the index is out of date, but that will search all the documentation of most of the libraries in QL 15:34:57 apparently upstart doesnt like conf files to be symlinks :/ 15:35:12 SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 15:36:35 and I still havent added the ql/asdf system name as is suggested on github, but it does work and almost usefully 15:37:23 mathrick_: thanks! 15:38:13 H4ns: sure thing, thanks for making it available 15:39:46 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:06 "Montezuma is a Common Lisp port of Ferret. Ferret is a Ruby port of Lucene. Lucene is sort of Doug Cutting's Java version of Text Database (TDB), which he and Jan Pedersen developed at Xerox PARC, and which, to complete the circle, was written in Common Lisp (see "An Object-Oriented Architecture for Text Retrieval")." 15:40:09 hah, I didn't know that 15:49:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:03 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:55:06 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:56:17 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57:48 C'est malin! 15:57:59 -!- lide [~migrayn@83-145-213-33.localloop.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:23 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:04 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:30 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:55 -!- bitonic [~user@host81-134-116-166.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:02 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-135-006.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:18 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:47 bitonic [~user@host81-134-116-166.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:04 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:43 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:43 19:43:43 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme Davidbrcz fantazo DrPete hiteki foreignFunction Indecipherable snearch RiskyBlit Forty-3 qptain_Nemo pnpuff antonv AlbireoX killerboy jtza8 Amadiro bitonic bobbysmith007 wbooze bege gridaphobe stat_vi lmj` lolprog oubiwann paul0 Praise Codynyx Odin- Mon_Ouie LiamH cataska Bike rking ASau ams trigen jdz djinni` madnificent limetree kmels SsvRrwQ rtoym gravicappa _d3f francisl smazga CampinSam hilbert sambio varjagg rmarianski MoALTz 19:43:43 -!- names: SeanTAllen setmeaway Vivitron lduros peterhil` agumonkey naryl rvirding Gurragchaa cibs iLogical gffa vert2 Nisstyre mishoo Jasko add^_ springz xan_ Joreji stlifey lemoinem Vutral answer_42 aero1 jcazevedo pjb pavelpenev guyal__ mtd urandom__ Obfuscate nlpplz SHUPFS PuercoPop mrSpec varjag Alice3 prxq punee doomlord theos gensym benny angavrilov CoverSlide macrobat dfox KingsKnighted kpreid specbot minion kennyd AntiSpamMeta ans kindergip peterhil 19:43:43 -!- names: asciilifeform b0ef bjorkintosh rpg ianmcorvidae Tristam nooy kleppari guaqua ecraven cic_ REPLeffect ezakimak _Mon_Ouie_ |3b| strobegen Tordek adx sweet_kid samograd phadthai j_king findiggle karswell jjkola_work billstclair impulse superflit Fade rvchangue mrcarrot Demosthenex cods mdh arrsim ozzloy Ralith antifuchs Tehnix sykopomp drewc nowhere_man _veer Euthy axion frodef christoph_debian s0ber psykoTRON prip_ foom spiderweb BrianRice joast renard_ 19:43:43 -!- names: [SLB] mal_ wyan kanru turbolent mcsontos hlavaty basso easye bzzbzz cmm quazimodo araujo terjesb dRbiG The_third_man jeekl cyphase sbryant jaaso kanru` __class__ Sgeo gendl mathrick_ brendyn ivan\ ``Erik YokYok jasom rabite Natch abeaumont df_ ZombieChicken oconnore dmiles mindCrime __main__ wormphle1m schoppenhauer Nshag cpt_nemo fe[nl]ix fmu angus ragnul jsnell Posterdati egn SHODAN Xach quasisane Khisanth nightfly_ gf3 JPeterson les otwieracz hohum_ 19:43:43 -!- names: cnl BeLucid_ dan64 smithzv arbscht tali713 balle elliottcable jrockway dlowe bps p_l mstevens kirin` brown` foo303_ acieroid tessier ski ArmyOfBruce setheus vhost- cmatei Patzy antoszka luis p_l|backup stokachu aoh scharan wuehli theBlackDragon BlastHardcheese finnrobi _root_ xristos qsun jayne barik gemelen copec housel _tca sytse Oddity drdo Tanami howeyc veemon joshe Buglouse ace4016 PECCU em pchrist sshirokov herbieB ivan nicdev sabra guther ered 19:43:43 -!- names: billitch mouflon TristamWrk surrounder pkhuong postfuturist cryptic asedeno_work wccoder srcerer Krystof felipe xaxisx DrForr derrida Jabberwockey clog pok cross_ hpd sepisult1um _schulte_ aerique cYmen Yahovah_ CrazyEddy mikaelj zbigniew tdmackey hugod samebchase ineiros eMBee dmbaturin yan_ ft Adeon pareidolia literal hiredman wchun basho spacefrogg^ clop newcup felideon astopholos_ tvaalen_ MikeSeth Yamazaki-kun daimrod tomaw cmbntr_ ramus flip214 19:43:43 -!- names: rotty oGMo nitro_idiot_ tychoish aajmakin gabot galdor Mandus H4ns gilez freiksenet rdd konaya yroeht Viaken redline6561 Subfusc boyscared robonyankitty yeltzooo dsp_ rfgpfeiffer slava_ Borbus adeht sigjuice froggey dim fasta scode z0d reactormonk nuba tkd johs 19:43:48 who thinks what about using s-expressions in URIs? 19:43:58 lmj`: is that all you want? to have a lexical closure and a special variable the refers to the initial value of the lexical variable (which happens to be the dynamic value of the special variable) ... or in other words " 19:44:01 And I'm surprised you still think it's easy after doing it for so long 19:44:02 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 ((lambda (foo) (lambda (&aux (*foo* foo)) *foo*)) *foo*) 19:44:15 antonv: like how? schemes can define whatever syntax they like iirc 19:44:27 instead of "RESTful" urls, like host://application/user/anton to have host/application/(user "anton") 19:44:54 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 I mean only the lasp part of the URI, which is usually interpreted by web application 19:45:04 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:45:13 you mean %20, not #\space .. 19:45:17 if use s-expression there, noting to interpret, just run the code 19:45:27 antonv: doesn't seem any worse than articles/2012-05-03-Title.html vs articles/2012/05/03/Title.html 19:45:38 antonv: I wouldn't just run the code, that seems ... problematic 19:45:39 running user-provided data sounds like an extraordinarily bad idea 19:45:41 drewc, yes %20, but browsers usually convert automatically 19:45:58 it will work like online REPL 19:46:03 in address bar 19:46:42 Quicklisp: Lowering the Bar 19:47:08 antonv: read is *very* unsafe as is 19:47:18 Xach: more like burrying the bar deep under ground. 19:47:32 well, safety is the secondary issue 19:47:36 you might need a custom reader, for example (ripping out SBCL's reader and making it non-interning would be a good start, it's pretty easy to read) 19:47:54 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:47:57 AlbireoX`Mac [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has joined #lisp 19:48:03 antonv: also, such URIs break many a rule about URIs, IMHO 19:48:07 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.60.163] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:48:42 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:48:46 what I found really inconvenient, is that + is reserved symbol, so writing host/application/(+ 1 2) doesn't work 19:48:47 though it depends on exactly how you make it 19:49:12 antonv: $43 19:49:13 antonv: be web2.0 and mime encode it 19:49:14 er %43 19:49:20 -!- AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:26 antonv: I know of an application that had, inside URI, gzipped JSON datastructure 19:49:33 host/app/KCsgMSAyKQ== 19:49:51 I spent a bit trying to figure how to get around that but we couldn't 19:50:03 why would you not put that as post request data 19:50:06 "how unreadable can you make it" 19:50:24 Bike: the gzipped JSON? 19:51:06 guaqua: <3 19:51:12 yeah. 19:51:57 when thinking about providing a REPL via address bar it seemed to be good to have separate special variable bindings for each HTTP session 19:51:57 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:52:01 Bike: because POST requests aren't bookmarkable. The json stuff was a dump of application state, which allowed you to use the link to recreate the exact UI you saved it from 19:52:28 ggh. 19:52:54 the application is a monitoring UI for a certain big IT infrastructure with 6 letter name ;) 19:53:21 p_l: what is the first letter? 19:53:39 drewc: yes the technical part is easy; my question is social in nature rather than technical -- whether adding such a macro to the API will help users, and if so then what should it be named. I tend to think thread pools should be blank slates wrt dynamic environments, save for special cases like maintaining database connections. 19:53:39 so, tons of configurable, dynamic widgets showing different data, and you had to make a bookmark out of it easily 19:53:44 antonv: #\G 19:54:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:23 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:01:31 user123abc [~sally@128.237.191.157] has joined #lisp 20:02:32 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:58 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:05:31 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:44 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:18:07 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:36 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:16 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:05 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:16 lmj`: well, in that case, I do not think that macro is needed. The documetation on why it happens will be there, either way. Now, the how to rebind docs vs the macro docs will be roughly the same length, but rebinding is something that can be done in many ways, for many cases. using the macro for one lib for a special case otoh , when a simple LET or LAMBDA can do the trick ... 20:24:06 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:25:31 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:09 -!- AlbireoX`Mac [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:39 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has joined #lisp 20:29:18 Fare [~fare@FLH1Acq098.kyt.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 20:32:06 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:34:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:48 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:35:09 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:26 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:35 -!- user123abc [~sally@128.237.191.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:45:08 rbarry [~ryanb@webvpn.armus.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:46 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:01 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:59:54 drewc: I agree; I was aiming at a technological solution when really the problem is education. The lolol pattern for transferring a dynamic binding to another thread may not be immediately obvious to some people, and adding a note to the documentation should suffice. If someone wishes to automate it via a macro, it's trivial to write. 21:02:04 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: quitters gonna quit :|] 21:03:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:25 -!- rbarry [~ryanb@webvpn.armus.com] has left #lisp 21:12:23 lolol/ 21:12:24 ? 21:16:37 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-245-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:17:41 Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:18:18 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053014208.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:19:37 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-93-168.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:23:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:24:55 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e025.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:02 user123abc [~sally@128.237.205.81] has joined #lisp 21:34:11 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 21:34:33 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:55 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:35:28 mcox [~user@124-171-95-192.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:35:38 Is anyone here on the CFFI mailing list? 21:38:07 Posterdati, that tutorial has good stuff in it, but smells quite old indeed. 21:38:28 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:38:37 Fare: ? 21:38:57 I'm playing with micro-lisp for commodore 64 21:39:04 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:07 massive overuse of list data structure. Discourages append, but uses nconc with a bad cubic worst-case complexity example labeled "good". 21:40:19 :-) 21:40:29 we were so young! 21:40:43 Posterdati, the other day, Eiiti Wada demonstrated PDP8 Lisp. 21:40:52 *p_l* has somewhere PDP-1 lisp 21:41:02 lol 21:41:13 the machine had 4096 12-bit words that were mapped to bits on screen, so you could see the effect of garbage collection. 21:41:25 nice 21:41:47 I was interested in micro-lisp because is a Lisp running on 8 bit machine... e.g. it could be ported to avr 21:41:58 if one has got the source 21:42:17 Posterdati, the gambit guys have a minimal lisp designed for very small targets 21:42:28 Posterdati: I was thinking more of using a CL hosted "lispy" language to program AVRs, though. Seems like it would fit most AVRs better 21:42:37 You could as easily write a Lisp targetting a 8bit processor, in CL... 21:42:46 on very small targets, I would use FORTH, though 21:42:54 Fare: +1 ;) 21:42:59 what is a very small target? 21:43:14 less than 32KB of RAM, I'd say 21:43:25 pjb: a compiler should be suffice 21:43:26 LISP ran on 32KW of RAM... 21:43:29 though -- I am reminded of the HP 28C 21:43:39 Posterdati: yes. 21:43:55 it had like 4KB of RAM, and a full Reverse Polish Lisp in ROM, including computer algebra system. 21:43:59 a REPL for bold ones 21:44:18 Fare: so only ram is important? 21:44:26 you could run cl on that easily. 21:44:38 nah, I would say less than 32KB of code space, rather than data space 21:45:05 also depends on whether you want real time behavior or not 21:45:22 32k is huge in my book hehehe 21:45:25 GC on small machines might not make sense, as opposed to linear logic 21:45:52 GC was invented on 32KW. 21:45:53 so don't gc ... you can write a lisp without gc 21:45:58 ams: exactly. Under 32KB, it's no longer huge, and you don't want to waste memory on a large support system. 21:46:05 KW > KB 21:46:12 Fare: under 32kb is still huge in my book. 21:46:14 ams: it's called FORTH. 21:46:21 Sure. But same O(.) :-) 21:46:25 Fare: sure, and 16kb is still huge. 21:46:38 depends what you want to do with it. 21:46:38 Fare: when you start talking about 4k or 2k then we can talk 21:46:48 Fare: isn't FORTH used for big telescope aiming? 21:46:58 Originally. 21:47:06 the pdp8 lisp had its code in 2KW and the data in the other 2KW. 21:47:15 But it was something like 2k or 1k RAM :-) 21:47:35 ... 2k of ram? luxury 21:47:49 Fare: depended on the pdp8. 21:47:54 p_l: i know!! :-) 21:48:08 *p_l* learnt AVRs on 256b of ram kind of chips 21:48:09 well, that one did and pdp8 lisp fit in it. 21:48:28 then why not go all the way down to green array processors? 21:48:48 Fare: cause we are lispers and prefer sanity. 21:49:05 anyway, interesting approach on some of the embedded targets would be to use bits and pieces of Inferno 21:49:29 if you wanna pick up forthers, #forth might be a good place .. 21:49:59 p_l: the lucent stuff? 21:50:11 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:50:25 http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/index.html 21:50:35 ams: yes 21:50:43 144 21-bit processors with 128W of RAM each, in an array 21:52:38 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.149.69] has left #lisp 21:52:42 Fare: do these work vaguely the same as a gpu, or are they all independent? 21:52:50 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:55 madnificent: all independent 21:53:14 I meant 18-bit processors and 64W of RAM and 64W of ROM. 21:53:29 Fare: Good for you! 21:54:24 and of course on the edge of the array, some of these processors are specially linked to a GPIO line 21:54:27 seems like something that could suit haskell. or, a massively multithreadable lisp, seems relatively hard with common lisp though (unless you take a subset). 21:55:00 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 21:55:43 madnificent: starlisp-like thingy? ;D 21:57:27 "When large, high-level programs are required, the GA144 supports eForth running from external SRAM or SDRAM. Typically, three to five nodes control the external memory and two nodes interpret the higher-level language." 21:58:22 or you could do like Marc Battyani and control FPGAs from Lisp. 21:58:43 to process the NASDAQ stream faster than anyone else. 21:59:05 or you could just embed a lisp in a fpga with gc and all 21:59:09 p_l: and the *lisp emulator still exists at franz, it seems 21:59:15 madnificent: yes, it does 22:01:58 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 22:03:09 does anyone use the inspector with mcclim? 22:04:00 one needs to be pretty delusional or hardcore to use mcclim these days. I think even beach seems to ave dropped it a bit :D 22:04:12 ams: you might get a response if you drop the condition identified by 'the inspector with'. hardly anyone seems to use mcclim here. 22:04:29 *madnificent* wonders what beach is up to these days 22:04:33 well, i use it... 22:04:39 heavily patched 22:05:15 was just hoping if somsone was as delusional as me :/ 22:05:20 (and i like clim!!) 22:06:11 as it is now, I'd rather copy what I find interesting in CLIM to CommonQT 22:07:29 blech 22:07:31 not that crazy 22:17:22 -!- mcox [~user@124-171-95-192.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:59 I use ltk 22:22:12 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:22:38 Fare: Here's an FPGA controlled from a Common Lisp session: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=797 22:23:01 but yeah commonQT seems to actually work. If it existed 5 years ago, I probably wouldn't have written all my gui stuff in ltk 22:23:04 all the relevant code (GPL 3): https://github.com/asciilifeform/Stierlitz 22:23:28 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:23:29 asciilifeform: sweet! 22:28:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-77.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:08 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-153-150.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:29 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-079-219.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:32:32 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:34:29 asciilifeform: i would love to read more about your fpga stuff and less about the boring bitcoin stuff, how is that Jupiter thing going? 22:34:43 urandom__: very slowly. 22:35:30 oh, what is the problem? 22:36:27 urandom__: mostly the fact that I don't have very much free time these days. 22:36:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 22:36:45 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13FBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:37:00 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:37:16 kmels [~kmels@p5B13FBC1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:23 asciilifeform: buy some 22:38:56 ams: I'm working on it. 22:39:15 ams: but a decade of free time isn't cheap. 22:39:34 asciilifeform: considered dictatorship? 22:40:06 -!- lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-192-48-177.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:40:47 ams: sure. 22:41:23 anyone else notice severe performance issues with hash-tables of strings on clozureCL? 22:41:41 asciilifeform: if you help me take over the world, i'll give you a country of your choice, and the population that is there. 22:42:07 as in many thousands of times slower to have the string representation of a fixnum vs having a fixnum 22:43:14 ams: yeah, sure, why not. 22:43:44 asciilifeform: good good!!! 22:43:56 asciilifeform: please wash the dishes for me first... 22:43:57 ams: why do you assume you will succeed with his help? 22:44:05 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:44:09 and get me a beer while you are at it 22:45:08 jasom: have you compared it to other implementations? 22:45:53 madnificent: just sbcl, which is like 2-4x slower (fixnum vs strings) on the same test, so still 3 orders of magnitude faster than ccl 22:46:41 jasom: you could try one of the hashing-table libraries which allow you to define your own hash functions and work from there 22:47:17 madnificent: it's just a curiousity; I'm implementing a critbit associative structure right now and was benchmarking against builtin hash tables 22:47:49 *Xach* wanted to do critbit/patricia for something or other but never finished it 22:47:53 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-226-3.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:15 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:49:15 Xach: I'll push my implementation out to github when I'm sure it works well. Right now it's about 5x slower for fixnums than the builtin hash-tables on sbcl for inserting 1M entries 22:49:27 all other operations I've tested are slower by a smaller factor 22:49:35 er 3M not 1M 22:49:44 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:41 uses about 2x the RAM though, which I'm working on reducing 22:50:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:51:09 biggest downside is that there is no way to reliably serialize a symbol, so you can't use symbols as keys 22:51:54 https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library/blob/master/stateful/hash-table-interface.lisp <--- i know a wee bit about how i think it should be done! :) 22:52:18 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:52:36 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:04 For a hash-table you need a (possibly non-unique) serialization of finite length, plus a comparison. For a crit-bit you need a guaranteed unique serialization (of possibly infinite length) 22:57:00 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:06 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:57:38 -!- Gurragchaa is now known as Gurragchaa` 23:01:05 gah 23:01:29 *Fare* has bootstrap issues between defgeneric>, defmethod> and with-interface!!!! 23:01:34 drewc: herep 23:02:15 drewc, you have commit rights -- but get stuff reviewed if you think it deserves my attention / agreement 23:02:35 drewc, speaking of which, I've decided to make a slight change in the API 23:02:56 you were right that :generic and :method should preserve the same meaning as in regular CLOS 23:03:37 my tweaked version should have the tweaked name, rather than have a tweaked version with the normal name and the normal version with the tweaked name 23:04:04 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 23:04:05 drewc, so I'm proposing :generic> and :method> for the tweaked name 23:04:37 I initially chose :generic* and :method* but the * sounded too innocuous 23:04:49 sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 23:04:56 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-200-17.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:04:59 the > is like a disbalanced < > pair, and indicates that something is missing/implicit 23:05:43 those names make sense and .. yes that in my own words... i like the > for that reason 23:05:49 my problem is with methods that use with-interface (implicitly or explicitly) before the generic has been defined. 23:06:26 ideally, the generic would be registered to the interface before the defmethod is expanded 23:06:49 yup... i was having an issue with something similar. 23:07:29 but if I expand the defgeneric's and their :method's in order, then a method cannot access current and subsequent generics 23:07:41 I have to somehow tweak the output. Ugly. 23:08:01 I am not sure what the issue is, but it seems so have to do with the with-interface... 23:08:03 " yes that in my own words" ? 23:08:08 I know what the issue is 23:08:17 it's about when register-interface-generic is called 23:08:40 if you've been hit by the problem, I should probably address it. 23:08:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:56 That means more roundabout macroexpansion 23:08:59 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 23:09:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:22 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:25 in my own words... meaning exactly what you are talking about but in my own words :) 23:09:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:38 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:54 let me commit a version that doesn't solve this issue first 23:11:21 my current code always declares the generic in a previous mixin before it tries to use it or implement it, anyway 23:11:29 but lemme fix that afterward 23:11:36 or put that in the todo for later this week 23:12:11 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:25 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-12.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:12:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:18 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:13:22 excellent. the are working fine so far, and it should not take much to modify the define-interfaces to match the > thing 23:13:42 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:57 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:14 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17:37 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.146] has joined #lisp 23:20:18 drewc, pushed 23:20:34 drewc: going out to visit Kyoto now 23:20:44 but will fix the other issue while on the train to Tokyo 23:20:50 Thanks a lot for your help 23:21:24 cool, enjoy, and domo. 23:21:36 drewc, and I'm looking forward to your hash-table suggestions 23:22:42 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:23:31 Hi! I'm making a presentation of Common Lisp language and Lisps generally. I'd like to have an example of LISP 1 code with lots of car, cdr and cons, something like the answer 2 at the end of this page: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/jeff/llisp/3.html 23:23:46 justinmc_ [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-107-153.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:55 peterhil, google for Stoyan lisp history 23:24:19 I remember seeing a similar but a lot longer function in some book, printed in 80's matrix printer font. Does someone recall what book it might have been? 23:26:06 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-153-150.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:26:36 -!- user123abc [~sally@128.237.205.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:28:43 Fare: Thanks. 23:32:38 lclark [~user@cpe-76-90-70-56.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-079-219.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:37:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-163.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:40:01 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has left #lisp 23:41:14 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:11 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:42:45 peterhil: Gentle Introduction might give you some ideas 23:43:05 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:46 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:50:21 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 23:50:41 cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-105-156.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:59:59 anyone have tips to determine why a tail-call isn't being eliminated on sbcl?