00:00:07 -!- Sorella_ is now known as Sorella 00:05:10 just finished a prototype using obscure mongrel2 + m2cl, robust and pleasant to develop, but being low level is a pain :) 00:09:01 and lack of standard auth libs etc. are painful, finally used proxy to node for faster implementation 00:10:53 catmtking [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-148-83.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 00:10:57 huangjs: yeah m2cl is pretty low-level. I wrote a half-assed mongrel2 to hunchentoot adapter at one point that let me startup weblocks on mongrel2, but it was quite slow 00:12:21 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:22 jasom: what do you think of using libevent2 + cl? 00:14:02 jasom: mongrel2 gave me good happy times, wanted to use it for language agnostic reasons, but thinking about that all other languages too need quite a lot hacking actually make the benefit less obvious 00:14:21 and i have to agree that i can finish my prototype faster using node.js 00:14:24 sigh... 00:14:42 yeah, libraries win 00:15:34 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-12-88-245.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:15:51 I haven't used libevent2 with mongrel2 00:15:53 er with cl 00:16:01 i see 00:16:18 I like mongrel2 because it lets me write the handlers in a synchronous fashion 00:16:45 jasom: but it doesn't manage the number of handlers, say using a thread pool 00:16:52 so you can get blocked 00:16:53 jason, have you investigated existing tools to work with mongrel2 from CL? 00:16:59 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:17:32 antonv: i'm using m2cl with lisp-zmq-1.3.1 00:18:00 brb 00:18:04 huangjs: don't do blocking stuff; if I need to query a database, I have a separate thread or process for getting the response and sending it back to mongrel2; so long as you can serialize the responses that's pretty easy 00:18:35 this assumes that you can fire and forget a db query of course 00:18:46 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-148-83.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 00:19:40 antonv: all the existing tools I've seen are very low-level; "Get a request from m2" "send a response to m2" 00:19:58 https://github.com/archimag/cl-mongrel2 00:20:15 this project aimed to provide the same interface as hunchentoot on top of mongrel2 00:20:36 i.e. to be able to write web applications portable between hunchentoot and mongrel2 00:20:37 antonv: yeah, but rutils never works for me 00:21:36 the author fo cl-mongrel2 reported it worked, but like a proof of concept, there is work to be done before it can be considered ready 00:22:16 but i thought it might be interesting to you 00:22:18 solidus_ [~sol@109.65.166.231] has joined #lisp 00:22:36 rudils doesn't work? in wat sense? 00:23:11 in that asdf:load-system failed on sbcl last time I tried it 00:23:15 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-39.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:20 try again 00:23:39 works now 00:24:57 Also the whole "put a bunch of utilities in one package" isn't as necessary now that we have quicklisp (Thanks Xach) 00:25:05 er one system 00:27:03 so yeah, I'll look at cl-mongrel2 again at some point 00:27:33 last time I tried it was early in mongrel2's 1.6 era 00:28:04 it hasn't changed in two years 00:28:12 the hard part, performance wise, is making a packet interface look like a stream interface 00:28:13 -!- solidus_ [~sol@109.65.166.231] has left #lisp 00:28:55 my hacked-together version worked, but ran at about 1/4 the req/s of hunchentoot 00:29:11 (on a single CPU) 00:30:23 why so? 00:30:51 ah, because packet/stream mistmach 00:31:05 what do you call packet and stream interfaces? 00:31:16 hunchentoot is a stream interface, mongrel2 is a packet interface 00:31:48 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:31:57 is it your own terms or they are used more widely 00:32:00 you write response data to a stream in hunchentoot. You write response data in discrete packets in mongrel2 00:32:23 lisp has the concept of a stream. zeromq has "messages" which I am calling packets 00:32:52 is message size limited? 00:33:05 not practically 00:33:12 it needs to fit in RAM 00:33:12 -!- ANDRES1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:33:16 for performance reasons 00:34:12 them implementing hunchentoot (steam) interface on top of message interface doesn't seem to be problematic - accumulate the stream into message and send 00:35:16 until you want to write 20GB of data from hunchentoot 00:36:03 also there are some issues where weblocks assumes a multithreaded environment 00:37:07 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:37:15 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:38:20 The final issue is that mongrel2 really shines when the thread of execution that gets the requests is separate from the thread of execution that responds to them. This is very different from most webservers. I'll have to write a blog post on it at some point 00:42:06 yes, this model does not seem to fit into the current hunchentoot API 00:44:00 that's incorrect 00:44:31 you can write your own acceptor that does whatever your heart fancies 00:45:00 jasom: I'm actually doing the same new thread thing :) 00:47:49 fe[nl]ix: i mean how you typicaly write handlers - handler receives request and produces response 00:48:18 in async model, it receives request, schedules some work and exits; resposne will be send later 00:48:36 if I understand it correctly 00:49:59 nothing in hunchentoot stops you from doing just that 00:50:41 after the handler exits, the hunchentoot:*request* object is destroyed, so there is nothing to send response to 00:52:55 i mean hunchntoot:*reply* object of course 00:53:11 in what way can i ensure a piece of code is executed when its body is executed (ensuring it is executed regardless of non-local exit points) 00:53:15 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:27 (being errors, returning from blocks etc) 00:53:29 unwind-protect? 00:53:35 exactly! thanks 00:54:13 aha! it's in the data and control flow dictionary :) 00:54:57 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Abd153.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 00:55:05 antonv: destroyed ?? 00:56:08 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:58 -!- paul0 [~user@201.86.65.58.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:17 -!- binbit [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:58:29 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Abd153.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:57 binbit [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:00:15 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:01:29 -!- segmond__ is now known as segmond 01:01:43 paul0 [~user@201.86.65.58.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:01:51 fe[nl]ix: it is flushed to the client after handler exit and to send and it becomes invalid to send response via this object after handler exit 01:03:07 isn't it? 01:03:08 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:04:05 estefani1 [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 01:04:25 -!- estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:50 -!- estefani1 [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:53 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3FBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:05:55 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:06:08 estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 01:10:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:34 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:15:56 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B825.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:04 antonv: the default acceptor and taskmaster are synchronous but that's not a necessity 01:16:16 you can change their behavior 01:16:25 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:31 we've done it 01:17:16 is it published anywhere? 01:17:20 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B5BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:18:46 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-39.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:02 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 01:19:06 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:23 daniel1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 01:19:34 what we did wasn't turning hunchentoot into an async server 01:19:50 just customizing limited-thread-taskmaster 01:19:50 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 01:20:02 fe[nl]ix: ? 01:20:04 but it's possible 01:20:13 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1 01:20:17 Keshi: yes ? 01:20:53 fe[nl]ix: What are you talking about? 01:20:59 antonv: will you be going to the ILC ? 01:21:05 Keshi: hunchentoot 01:21:13 fe[nl]ix: Huh??? 01:21:17 fe[nl]ix: nope 01:21:35 fe[nl]ix: What's that? 01:21:44 Keshi: go read the logs 01:21:46 minion: logs 01:21:46 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 01:22:06 fe[nl]ix: Which logs? 01:22:24 this channel's 01:22:53 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, but in particular which ones. 01:23:20 I can't just read all the logs since September 2008 and the year 2000. 01:23:26 enth [~Christian@wikimedia/enthdegree] has joined #lisp 01:23:29 -!- enth [~Christian@wikimedia/enthdegree] has left #lisp 01:23:36 Keshi: why do you need to know what fe[nl]ix is talking about? 01:23:44 antonv: for the moment we're happy with running one SBCL instance per core, 25 threads per instance 01:23:46 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-108-67-101-167.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:15 antonv: Call of interest and I think someone said I should be familiar with it. 01:24:28 antonv: At this point, it seems pretty important to know. 01:24:37 -!- binbit [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10 -- Are we there yet?] 01:25:02 Keshi: wait a little, the importance will decrease gradually 01:25:23 antonv: Yeah, I know about hyperbolic discounting, but I don't think so in this case. 01:25:39 I think there is a maintaining factor because I am almost on holiday. 01:26:33 fe[nl]ix: You really aren't helping here... 01:26:37 fe[nl]ix: Which logs? 01:26:38 fe[nl]ix: when you experimented with async mode, have you introduced any new methods for reply? like (send-the-reply *reply*)? 01:27:05 Keshi: it's important to you; take the time to do the research yourself. 01:27:13 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-150-132-143.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:16 -!- segmond_ is now known as segmond 01:27:28 pkhuong: Sure, need somewhere to start though. 01:27:45 looking up hunchentoot sounds like a start 01:28:46 Bike: Better to get context first. 01:29:13 hunchentoot is the context of their conversation. 01:29:23 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.226.120] has joined #lisp 01:30:04 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:30:24 Bike: Yeah, what is that though? 01:30:50 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:08 fe[nl]ix: i mean in asynch handling it seems to be necessary to explicitly specify when to send the reply (in contrast to sync mode, when the reply is sent right after handler exit) 01:31:09 Why not look it up. It's not exactly a common term; plugging it into google will get you the appropriate answers. 01:31:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:31:46 dardevelin [~dardeveli@a95-93-191-205.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 01:31:48 leoncamel [~user@124.126.218.104] has joined #lisp 01:31:59 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 01:32:08 Bike: Well, as I said, I need to know the context first. 01:32:28 Context for what. 01:32:31 Janthinidae [~tom@161-153.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 01:32:31 binbit [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:33:04 takumi [~takumi@c-24-15-242-135.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:05 Bike: The hunchentoot context 01:33:40 first result on google: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ there you go. 01:34:09 Bike: Yes, I can use Google obviously, but it doesn't help without the hunchentoot context. 01:34:17 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:37 It's a webserver. It's in lisp. What more context do you need? 01:35:26 Bike: The conversation's discursive context of course. 01:35:42 So read the logs. For today. To find the beginning of the conversation. 01:35:42 -!- binbit [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Client Quit] 01:36:33 -!- sawgij [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:37:05 Bike: Oh, what time zone does the logging bot use for the logs though? 01:37:09 -!- Janthinidae [~tom@161-153.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:37:10 Janthinidae_ [~tom@161-153.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 01:37:10 binbit [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:37:11 * Okay, 01:37:55 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:11 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:39:19 pnq: 01:39:43 looks like gmt-9 from here. going off of the last time. 01:40:13 Bike: Okay. 01:40:14 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:42:12 Libster [ad4f991e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.79.153.30] has joined #lisp 01:42:28 hi is this a good place to troll 01:43:04 no 01:43:14 ok can u recommend a better channel to troll in 01:44:29 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c0c1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:35 Libster: the English channel. it's pretty cool this time of the year 01:44:36 /join #freenode 01:44:50 k 01:44:53 ty 01:44:54 -!- Libster [ad4f991e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.79.153.30] has left #lisp 01:45:03 fe[nl]ix: That's racist. 01:45:09 mwahaha 01:45:17 racist ? 01:45:28 how so ? 01:46:39 It seemed Anglophobic. 01:47:18 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:25 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c163f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:47:54 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@63.133.198.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:48:18 Keshi: your sense of humor is severely deficient 01:48:36 fe[nl]ix: Ay? No humour to it. 01:49:21 French, Scottish or whatever, there is never room for Anglophobia. 01:49:24 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 01:51:37 Keshi: not sure if trolling, but fe[nl]ix made a pun involving "trolling" and "channels" 01:51:41 pretty clever actually 01:51:45 anyone able to help with a beginner lisp problem? 01:52:17 joekarma: Racist jokes are racist. 01:52:34 oh, finally, thanks joekarma :) 01:53:08 anyone? 01:53:16 takumi: just ask the question 01:53:29 fe[nl]ix: You came in halfway through the conversation. My guess is he is a double of yours. 01:53:53 fe[nl]ix: You didn't think people would pickup on him saying that after not seeing "the joke"? 01:54:09 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-25-169.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:18 omg I think Keshi just argued me out of existence 01:54:24 *joekarma* disappears into a cloud of smoke 01:54:56 joekarma: once a guy mistook me for a bot because I would answer questions very quickly on a trivia channel 01:54:59 that was funny 01:55:07 i need to write a function to add 5 to the 2nd spot in the list '(3 1 4 6 7) to print out (3 6 4 6 7) 01:55:17 it lasted a good half an hour 01:55:33 so far i got (+ 5 (nth 1 '(3 1 4 6 7))) but it returns 6... 01:55:38 joekarma: Well, the point's a point. 01:56:04 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 01:56:10 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi 01:56:10 -!- Keshi [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (Keshi) 01:56:15 lol 01:56:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 01:56:46 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 01:57:11 takumi: + doesn't actually alter the list. 01:58:00 takumi: (let ((list (list 3 1 4 6 7))) (incf (elt list 1) 5) list) 02:00:05 Oian [~Oian@unaffiliated/oian] has joined #lisp 02:00:13 thank you that problem has been kicking my ass 02:00:35 cornihilio [~user@nfmv001078036.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:01:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 02:01:26 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode -b *!~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi 02:02:26 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 02:02:29 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:03:01 -!- Janthinidae_ [~tom@161-153.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:03:05 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:22 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:03:33 -!- moore33 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[~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 02:35:48 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 02:36:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:37:45 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-99-150-128-161.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:00 -!- gr3ttke [~grettke@CPE-70-92-11-221.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:38:51 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:22 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl20-210-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 -!- segmond [~segmond@adsl-99-150-131-83.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:35 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:50:03 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@75-142-48-213.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:06 if I'm connected to multiple lisp implementations through slime at the same time, how do I tell slime which one I want to use for a particular buffer? 02:53:03 it seems like it's automatically choosing the first one in slime-lisp-implementations 02:53:12 I don't know if you can switch on a buffer to buffer basis 02:53:35 but globally you can slime-selector c 02:54:04 or C-c C-x c (slime-list-connections) 02:54:14 and select your lisp from there 02:54:24 C-c C-x n will also work I suppose 02:56:12 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:56:54 ah okay, that last one works 02:57:22 from slime-list-connections you can select a default lisp with "d" I believe 02:57:46 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:58:04 yup, that worked too 02:58:05 thanks 02:58:25 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 02:58:35 no problem 02:59:14 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:39 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:18 -!- takumi [~takumi@c-24-15-242-135.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: irc2go] 03:02:31 -!- benny 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[~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:35 ifnspifn [~ifnspifn@184.90.25.102] has joined #lisp 04:56:05 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:03:51 -!- paul0 [~user@201.86.65.58.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:13 lol'd @ anglophobia. oh the 1st world problems... :( 05:08:19 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:08:41 rootlocus [~rootlocus@101.119.16.7] has joined #lisp 05:08:53 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:42 -!- dardevelin [~dardeveli@a95-93-191-205.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:05 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:24 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5f0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 Yee [~wut@1.38.28.93] has joined #lisp 05:30:52 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:34 -!- gf3 [~gf3@oftn/member/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:33:52 -!- Yee [~wut@1.38.28.93] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35:22 gf3 [~gf3@oftn/member/gf3] has joined #lisp 05:35:43 -!- doomlord [~doomlord3@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:37:31 joekarma: hi. what does :content-length t do for you? is it broken? 05:38:02 no it works for me 05:38:45 at least I think it does; didn't try it with anything complicated 05:39:28 joekarma: ok. i'm slightly confused by the email from manabu takayama who seems to say that it does not work, but if you are fine now, i'll not rush looking into it. 05:39:30 but as you (and the documentation) pointed out, placing a non-negative integer there turns off chunking and averts 411 Length Missing errors 05:40:20 joekarma: right, but if it is a positive integer, it needs to be matching the length of the request contents, if i understand correctly. 05:40:53 joekarma: the point of passing T would be to trigger assembling the request in memory and calculating the content length, rather than using chunking 05:42:11 Worked for me. I'm not having any more trouble with NGINX servers now that I'm using :content-length t 05:42:18 ok. 05:44:42 although for my purposes the problem is solved, I'm wondering if it would make sense to automatically revert to in-memory request assembly automatically when such errors are encountered... 05:44:56 s/automatically// 05:46:31 i tend to think that this would be the responsibility of the library user, although i can see your point. 05:48:00 although it seems that 411 is specific enough to warrant such an automatism 05:48:20 I wondered 05:48:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 05:49:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51:33 well, this may work for some cases, but not for all (i.e. when the request body has been generated by a function, it may not be possible to retry) 05:52:19 but then, chunking for small requests is pointless anyway. 05:53:46 maybe if it retried requests by default but there was an option to turn it off? 05:54:13 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:19 &key (:try-to-solve-http-errors t) ; I don't know 05:58:29 wizard` [~user@eth900.qld.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:27 -!- wizard` [~user@eth900.qld.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:41 fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has joined #lisp 05:59:58 wizard` [~user@eth900.qld.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:22 -!- fourier1 [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:02:53 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.226.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05:44 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5f0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:46 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-123-242.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:05:48 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.57.70] has joined #lisp 06:08:52 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:09:04 i think i'll change the code so that chunking for request bodies is used only if the request length cannot be precomputed. 06:09:17 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5f0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:42 seems like a good solution to me 06:09:56 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:10:21 -!- fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:10:28 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:10:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has left #lisp 06:13:18 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13:54 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:14:14 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:14:43 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@101.119.16.7] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:15:17 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:15 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:16:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:18:29 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:19:57 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25:46 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:22 actually, it seems like what you've seen was a bug that was introduced recently. with the bug fixed, the problem does not exist. 06:30:27 so thanks for reporting it :) 06:33:17 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-96.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:34:19 joekarma 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joined #lisp 07:35:37 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-184.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:11 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:47 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:37:58 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 07:38:29 balle_ [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 07:39:25 Wait wait. I was looking at http://obsidianrook.com/devnotes/elisp-for-perl-programmers.html , and under Closures it says, "none in elisp" 07:39:40 I know I'm up too late, but I don't think I'm hallucinating yet. Is that true? No closures? 07:42:14 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 07:45:14 not until the very latest Emacs version (24) 07:45:24 Hrm, OK. 07:45:53 It's just weird because when I first learned closures it was described as "an FP thing". Lisp was also described as "an FP thing". So  07:46:25 But now that I know a tiny bit more, it seems odd because variables aren't very "FP", so why you'd need to close on them sounds odd also. 07:46:36 hey rking you are the same rking from #blender and #blenderpython right ? 07:46:41 variables are "not very fp"? 07:47:15 i think you are oversimplifying by wanting to label concepts as being "fp" 07:48:24 kilon: Hehe, yeah. 07:48:45 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:47 H4ns: Oh, for sure I am. I'm new enough to it that I'm in crayola mode with it. 07:49:29 rking: for starters, forget all the "fp" labeling 07:49:36 maybe you mean it in extremely purist fp way 07:49:48 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:49:52 but i think even haskell relies of variables 07:50:06 from the little i have seen of it 07:50:07 H4ns: Well, the part that I am interested in is being stretched to see things in new ways. Purism might do more in that regard. 07:51:07 rking: whatever you do, claiming that A is "fp" and B is "not fp" without really knowing what you're talking about will confuse you and others. 07:51:36 H4ns: So can you define it correctly for me? 07:51:57 rking: in the functional programming community (which i personally would define as the group of people who regularly attend icfp), pure functions and strong typing are essential fp concepts 07:52:14 rking: but you may notice that there is only a small overlap between #lisp and the icfp fellowship. 07:53:56 rking: there is no "correct" definition of "functional programming" in the end. interpreting "functional programming" as "programming with first-class functions" is basically meaningless, and interpreting it as "programming like a person visiting icfp" is even more meaningless. 07:54:32 rking: the latter has some value to me, though, when discussing functional programming in an informal setting. 07:55:48 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:38 Well, now it's even more mystical. But no biggie. 07:56:56 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:05 rking: that's the idea. if you don't know what you're talking about, don't try to talk about it :) 07:57:05 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:42 "If you don't know how to say a word, say it loud."  William Strunk 07:59:52 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:04 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 08:03:31 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5f0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:03:43 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-124-003.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:58 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.100.95] has joined #lisp 08:18:44 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.13.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:21:46 karneisada [~hagbard@ip68-109-111-249.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 -!- cornihilio [~user@nfmv001078036.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:32:09 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-pabcahresudxcupv] has joined #lisp 08:32:47 nha [~prefect@koln-5d81754b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:58 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:28 Janthinidae_ [~quassel@161-153.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:02 -!- Janthinidae_ [~quassel@161-153.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 08:41:33 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:45:09 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl20-210-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:49:35 -!- karneisada [~hagbard@ip68-109-111-249.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:49 benny [~user@i577A8BBE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:55 -!- hiteki [~user@224.251.102.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:57 hiteki [~user@224.251.102.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:46 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:59:03 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483B825.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:04 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B825.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:59:51 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-pabcahresudxcupv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:00:12 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~textual@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00:36 ArmyOfBruce [~textual@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:59 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:02:03 are the values of the assoc pairs in bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings* evaluated each time a new thread is built? 09:04:17 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:07:05 -!- mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:08:17 why would they be? 09:09:50 H4ns: because their values might differ over time. for instance, when you're trying to pass hunchentoot's *session* through 09:10:22 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:10:39 my understanding is that the *default-special-bindings* are made special also in all created thread so that when you access them from the threads you see the same dynamic "place" as from the parent 09:10:42 i understand. it seems as if the documentation says nothing special about the evaluation of bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings*, so i would assume that it just does what is documented 09:10:47 hence you must ensure proper locking 09:11:15 I'm saying this more to stand corrected and ensure my understanding is correct than to help, though 09:11:28 (as you already noticed I'm sure) :) 09:12:12 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 09:12:18 dim: so in practice, the binding is passed through 09:12:43 H4ns: any alternative way of handling it so i'm sure i'm passing that value through? i'm not creating the tread in my library 09:12:55 bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings* is not about locking, places or evaluation. it is about setting up one particular binding, and the values bound are defined when the variable is set or bound, not when it is used. 09:13:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:13:26 madnificent: you can pass the :bindings keyword argument to make-thread, which defaults to bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings* 09:13:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:14:42 H4ns: yes, but that would require changing the library. i could do it and evaluate the arguments each time instead of doing what b-t might be doing 09:14:46 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 09:14:57 madnificent: "the library"? 09:15:00 H4ns: and that particular binding is hosting the same data in the parent and children threads, right? 09:15:45 the library that makes the thread (which also manages hunchentoot's request, so i can't easily add a let binding around it) 09:15:51 'the library' is intercom in this case 09:15:56 dim: if you bind two variables in two threads to the same value, the two threads share the value. that is true. 09:16:18 madnificent: seems like "the library" is broken then 09:16:28 i don't agree 09:16:44 you might as well say that b-t is broken. at most, it's a mismatch 09:17:25 then again, you will disagree because b-t was there all along and this argument will go nowhere. so i'll try to fix it without having that argument :) 09:18:04 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-myebuidqwgpkyjhf] has joined #lisp 09:18:16 bordeaux-threads is certainly broken, but that could be fixed as well 09:18:39 not sure about introducing a special variable with non-standard evaluation rules, though. 09:19:00 having a hook that is called back to determine a newly created binding may be better 09:19:49 doesn't the special variable of hunchentoot follow standard evaluation rules? is 'standard evaluation rules' specified in the CLHS? 09:19:54 s/binding/thread's binding/ 09:20:27 madnificent: what special variable do you mean? 09:20:34 *session* 09:20:49 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 09:21:09 i don't think i follow. *session* points to a session instance, nothing unusual about that? 09:21:48 when i mention "evaluation rules", i mean that you asked whether there are special evaluation rules governing bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings*, which is not the case 09:22:43 it would be possible to change that, so that the alist is "evaluated" when a new thread is created, but i think that this would not be a good idea for various reasons. 09:22:51 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 09:23:54 H4ns: what i wanted to ask, but which possibly didn't get through, is that whether or not the the values of the alist of b-t:*d-s-b* were evaluated each time a new thread was created. so as to ensure the value is correct for that particular context. 09:24:20 that was what you asked and i just rephrased it. 09:24:59 "you asked whether there are special evaluation rules governing bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings*, which is not the case" 09:25:48 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-133-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:06 -!- dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:27:34 think about it, what do you mean when you easily hope for the variable being "evaluated" when a new thread is created. evaluated how? in what lexical context? if that'd be the case, the documentation would at least talk about "forms" that are evaluated, not values, that are bound. 09:27:41 but they are evaluated each time? as in, the form i supply is evaluated each time a new thread is built? because i don't see that falling under any form of special nor standard evaluation rules. 09:27:46 it is amazing how little trust many people have in documentation. 09:27:56 well, no. i don't 09:28:06 i don't find that piece to be rigorous 09:28:15 for instance, the formulation doesn't work when a variable is unbound 09:28:16 madnificent: what makes you think that they could be evaluated every time a new thread is created? 09:28:24 so coping with that would require evaluating it 09:28:28 madnificent: tell me, what makes you believe that? 09:28:29 that would be the sane thing in my opinion. 09:28:37 but apparently you don't find that obvious 09:28:41 not at all. 09:29:03 so i guess we should stick with "it just isn't obvious". so no, i don't find that piece of documentation to hit the sweet spot. sorry 09:29:16 try imagining how that would be implemented for a moment. 09:29:34 you say "evaluated each time". in what lexical context would that evaluation happen in your opinion? 09:29:39 and that's not being uptight to someone that seems to believe everyone must know everything before asking anything on this channel. this is a gumption trap 09:30:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:30:31 http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation also hints that it's underspecified btw 09:30:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:31:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.170] has joined #lisp 09:31:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.170] has quit [Changing host] 09:31:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:31:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:31:21 i rest my case. maybe you want to add another comment to that page indicating that stuff should be evaluated 09:31:37 and that doesn't specify whether or not they are to be evaluated each time a thread is created, or whether or not they can be cached 09:31:39 _or_ you could give it some actual thought. 09:31:52 do you understand the question that i asked? 09:32:51 H4ns: or you could try to understand people too when they ask questions and be a tad less uptight. gumption trap, you're the definition of it these days. you're a real gain to the community and i like your reasoning, but what you're being the past few days is *not* what helps people. 09:33:25 madnificent: i'm sorry. help yourself. 09:33:30 no, i don't understand shit of what you asked at this time. i wonder if you understood my question, but it's so impossibly easy that i doubt you did not. however, i find it odd that you come up with relatively convoluted answers :/ 09:33:43 you say "evaluated each time". in what lexical context would that evaluation happen in your opinion? 09:33:50 H4ns: for what it's worth, i really appreciate what you do, and i mostly always appreciate your help 09:34:07 if you don't know what "evaluated" and "lexical context" means, then you'll need to stick with the simple answer. "no" 09:34:10 i'd argue it should happen in the context of the form which makes the thread 09:34:28 how would that happen. imagine the code that does what you say. 09:34:45 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-myebuidqwgpkyjhf] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:35:11 if it would not, then the special variables wouldn't make sense. you'd try to bind the special variable to the value it has in the new thread. but that's exactly why you're supplying it, so the variable has a sane value in the new thread 09:35:43 so you should be binding the variable in the created thread, to the value in the creating thread. so the lexical scope used when evaluating should be that of the form which creates the thread. 09:36:09 otherwise you might as well have used a let binding in the code which is running in the new thread. 09:36:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:37:02 Joreji [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:43 what you've just discovered is that bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings* is not very useful in many cases 09:38:00 that is why there is a :bindings keyword argument in bt:make-thread 09:38:12 but that argument isn't readily available 09:38:20 plus, why would it be there if it totally didn't make sense? 09:38:33 why even add it and underspecify it? 09:38:36 i did not say "totally", i said "not very helpful" 09:38:43 it is fully specified, but not very helpful. 09:39:17 it doesn't specify in which threads the evaluation occurs, nor whether or not it will happen again. i don't see how that is not being underspecified. 09:39:19 look at http://lparallel.org/kernel/, the last section of that page describes how lparallel deals with that very problem. 09:39:30 ah well, i'm likely out of line there 09:39:38 it does not specify it because it does not need to specify it. you need to accept that. 09:39:43 ty for that link, reading :) 09:40:09 well, that's the same as saying the plus operator doesn't need to specify what results it will give. no, it needn't, but without, it doesn't make much sense. 09:40:43 Artheist [~quassel@195.68.4.98] has joined #lisp 09:40:58 we have reached the point where you need to understand the real issue first and i seemingly can't help you with that. 09:41:44 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:18 the issue is that there's no clean way of passing variables through to newly built threads with b-t 09:42:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.41] has joined #lisp 09:42:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.41] has quit [Changing host] 09:42:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:42:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:56 there is. :bindings does it. 09:43:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.41] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.41] has quit [Changing host] 09:43:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:43:26 the problem is that your other library does not give you access to that. and the *default-special-bindings* is not a way around it, no matter how hard you demand it 09:44:15 now you can either fix your other library, or change bordeaux-threads so that it gives you a way to hook into thread creation to augment the bindings of the new thread. 09:45:37 which sucks. it shouldn't be the library's resposibility to set that up. i have the feeling that this is far more complex than it should be. thanks for the help though. and for pointing to those few lines in lparallel.org/kernel. 09:46:10 you can always change the fdefinition of bt:make-thread to a function of your own liking 09:46:23 and no, this is not hacking, this is the flexibility of lisp. 09:46:28 heh :) that's dirty :) 09:46:57 cornihilio [~user@nfmv001078036.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] 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[~richard@pool-173-55-83-220.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:18:26 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 17:19:41 -!- mmalorni [~mmalorni@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:21:25 jasom: one advantage of a new web server would be a better api :) 17:22:03 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:05 jasom: i'm not ready to suggest one, but i've never felt the Hunchentoot API to be particularily nice. 17:22:45 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 toot! 17:24:15 felideon: on the up side, hunchentoot has documentation :) 17:24:50 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:31 felideon: although recent discussions in this channel lead me to believe that reading documentation has come out of fashion a bit. 17:25:32 Use the source, Luke? :P 17:26:37 felideon: either that, or "it should work like i think it should work!" 17:26:48 H4ns: Reading, or writing documentation? There seems to be more demand than supply. 17:26:58 H4ns: Ah, I see. 17:27:01 felideon: writing docs was never in fashion 17:28:31 -!- binbit is now known as _^_ 17:30:17 -!- _^_ is now known as lcc 17:30:24 -!- lcc is now known as _^_ 17:32:55 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-229-129.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 17:32:57 Hey, does cffi have an equivalent to memcpy for foreign memory? 17:33:09 moore33: erm, memcpy maybe? 17:33:15 Heh, yeah. 17:33:56 *sykopomp* will some day finish his async web server. 17:34:59 H4ns: That has the disadvantage of having to deal with the C library on my own. 17:36:24 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1220-63.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:37:54 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-123-242.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-91-71.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 -!- _^_ is now known as _-_ 17:42:13 moore33: the point of cffi is dealing with c libraries 17:42:21 anyway. 17:43:11 -!- olavete is now known as iLogical 17:43:51 H4ns: Yes, but I prefer not to learn how to link in the standard C library on every platform that might be interesting... if someone has done that already. 17:44:23 I'm assuming that cffi doesn't do that already? 17:44:39 -!- _-_ is now known as _{^-^}_ 17:45:07 -!- _{^-^}_ is now known as {^-^} 17:46:58 moore33: well, you can implement memcpy yourself 17:47:01 it's not hard 17:47:42 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 17:47:54 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@2002:a9eb:92a5:c:1c8a:9cfd:1a77:af9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:07 catmtking [~catmtking@2002:a9eb:919e:b:84a8:aa9c:1876:7862] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@63.133.198.91] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:48:35 moore33: libc is already linked 17:50:01 p_l: In Lisp? Seems like it would be hard to avoid boxing / unboxing the values. 17:50:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:08 fe[nl]ix: So I should be able to do a defcfun without any of the {load|use}-foreign-library stuff? 17:54:12 moore33: you can use CFFI functions to avoid it. But yes, memcpy should be already in linkage table. 17:54:21 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:54:25 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 17:54:38 Ah yes, the linkage table. That brings back memories :) 17:55:50 rme_ [~rme@50.43.130.140] has joined #lisp 17:56:42 -!- rme [rme@D07C9756.34CA369F.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:56:43 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 17:57:19 H4ns: someone pointed out to me that hte point of writing documentation isn't so that people read it, it's so that you can point them to it when they ask questions 17:57:45 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.185.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:45 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 17:58:00 In my experience, writing documentation has a beneficial clarifying effect on the code as well. 17:58:11 "This is too hard to document so I need to fix it." 17:58:33 -!- |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 17:58:39 Xach: good point 17:58:55 jasom: people's motivations differ. i like when people use my software, but i don't want to explain usage to everyone. 17:59:01 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:59:43 H4ns: right, but given that people will ask, it's easier to post a link to the docs then to type out an answer. You can even write a bot to do it for you! 17:59:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00:03 sure: the documentation (fixing) it's like the explanation (understanding). 18:00:05 jasom: you can write one for me if you want 18:00:28 clhs: car 18:00:41 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@2002:a9eb:919e:b:84a8:aa9c:1876:7862] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:00:47 catmtking_ [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:01:34 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.130.140] has left #lisp 18:01:58 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@63.133.198.91] has joined #lisp 18:02:43 minion: car? 18:02:43 car: CAR and CDR are excellent mnemonics, if only because they (i) are short in length; (ii) are of the same length; (iii) are lexically similar but moderately distinguishable; (iv) have convenient pronunciation; (v) are naturally extendable (e.g., CAAR/CDAR/CDDR, which is useful for top-level hacks). They're also not completely arbitrary, and they're got a history 18:02:56 -!- {^-^} is now known as [_] 18:03:07 -!- ASau is now known as [ 18:03:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:03:20 jasom: you want 'clhs car' 18:03:23 clhs car 18:03:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm 18:03:27 ^ 18:03:35 p_l: thanks 18:03:36 -!- [ is now known as Guest71207 18:03:39 note that there's also first/rest in the standard, IIRC 18:03:43 -!- Guest71207 is now known as ASau 18:03:46 clhs first 18:03:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm 18:03:55 yes. I also found it used less often :) 18:04:11 (tenth list) == (car (cdr (cddddr (cddddr list)))) 18:04:19 do as you see fit :) 18:04:35 there's no twenty-seventh though, I always found that lacking about the spec 18:05:06 brucio strove to fix it but his code is lost to the world 18:05:28 too bad 18:05:52 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 18:08:29 bps [~bps@ip68-106-240-172.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:40 -!- [_] is now known as {^-^} 18:09:07 dim: usually I don't need to get exactly tenth element from a list ;) 18:10:25 I don't always need to get the tenth element from a list, but when I do, I use (nth 9 list) 18:10:32 yeah, I use first/rest to recurse over a list, first/second etc when I just want an element, and car/cdr when writing code that deals with cons cells explicitely 18:13:36 the last time I used a huge list in lisp (potentially millions of elements) was google interview... 18:13:59 you could use (tenth list) 18:14:11 oh. didn't read far enough back 18:22:29 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 18:22:49 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:53 catmtking [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-135-105.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-135-105.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:28 bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:36 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:04 -!- catmtking_ [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:27:31 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@63.133.198.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:28:29 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:30:53 It's possible to run abcl (in emacs) without building it (abcl)? thx. 18:31:09 pnpuff: you can get an abcl binary 18:31:49 sure: no problem to run it in a terminal. 18:32:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:33:18 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:22 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33:47 but run it in emacs seems to me that it's a bit more "problematic." 18:34:09 bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:14 How so? 18:35:41 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:38 ops not by emacs terminal emulator but via slime. 18:37:00 What's the trouble? 18:37:04 moore33: try https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors , it has bindings to memcpy/memset and more 18:37:05 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:55 Xach: give me this error : Error: Could not find or load main class org.armedbear.lisp.Main :( 18:38:22 the path og abcl.jar it's properly setted 18:38:30 *of 18:39:11 pnpuff: obviously it is not. 18:39:15 -!- estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:39:24 I'm sure 18:39:47 One good source of pain in troubleshooting is being certain of things that are false. 18:39:51 pnpuff: i'm usually starting it from a shell script that contains "java -jar " 18:40:24 sure: http://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/doc/abcl-install-with-java.html 18:40:45 I've read the guide. 18:40:57 pnpuff: but you did not implement what it says correctly. 18:41:06 pnpuff: try my suggestion. 18:41:57 -!- {^-^} is now known as ^[ 18:42:00 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:23 H4ns: I've done the shell script 18:42:32 estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 I've read the guide. 18:45:01 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:46:03 pnpuff: if the shell script works from the shell, then you'll propably have not set up inferiour-lisp-program correctly. paste the shell script to paste.lisp.org. 18:46:34 mmm 18:48:15 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:49:08 pnpuff: my shell script contains http://paste.lisp.org/display/132848 - it is called "abcl" and located in my path. i set inferior-lisp-program to "abcl". it works. 18:49:20 I've many lisp implementations 18:49:25 pnpuff: so do i 18:49:54 my inferior-lisp-program is actually clisp 18:52:15 my script: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132848#1 18:52:38 line 2 most probably is your problem 18:52:51 "Use your own path here." 18:53:03 why read? it needs to work WITHOUT READING! 18:53:31 That is good old fashioned sarcasm, for reference 18:53:42 i got plenty of that! 18:53:47 with a bit of anger, it seems (: 18:54:34 ops 18:55:40 this line it's in my .emacs: (add-to-list 'load-path "~/software/abcl-1.0.1/abcl-bin-1.0.1/") 18:55:43 msmith0957 [~Mike@c-76-124-107-175.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:56 and because auf that.....? 18:55:58 so line 2 it's my problem ? 18:55:58 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:58 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:00 s/auf/of/ 18:56:15 pnpuff: emacs' load path has nothing to do with shell scripts. 18:56:30 pnpuff: and ./foo means "foo in the current working directory" 18:56:45 is there a better way i can do this: 18:56:45 (let ((node (car (last fringe)))) 18:56:45 (setf fringe (butlast fringe)) 18:56:55 pnpuff: it may be that the instructions assume that you know some unix basics. 18:57:01 my 'fringe' is acting as a queue, i push elements onto it, and then pop them off of the end 18:57:24 msmith0957: what do you mean by "better"? 18:57:50 msmith0957: a singly-linked list is not often a great queue 18:57:52 perhaps theres a single function i can use with this functionality 18:58:06 yeah, i was going for simplicity really 18:58:11 I know that I know nothing :) 18:58:13 lol 18:58:14 msmith0957: there is no queue built in to common lisp, but there are plenty of queue implementations out there. 18:58:51 this is for an assignment, so supposed to be implementing our own queues. it doesnt have to be fancy, but what i did just seems unlisp-like 18:59:07 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-79-74.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 18:59:14 you know it? XD 18:59:38 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-40-116-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:59:56 msmith0957: i don't know what your instructor is looking for, but if i'd be your instructor, i'd be looking for something that does not copy the whole queue when removing the frontmost item. 19:00:15 msmith0957: (butlast does just that, it copies everything but the last element into a fresh list) 19:00:36 -!- wolgo [~user@70-35-57-218.static.wiline.com] has left #lisp 19:00:40 oh.. i was hoping it would just chop off that last pointer 19:01:00 but, i gues that wouldnt make sense as the list would be mutated 19:01:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:01:10 which is actualy what i want it to do, but not sure how it can be done like that 19:01:12 nbutlast will mutate 19:01:21 msmith0957: even if you'd use nbutlast, the whole list will be traversed 19:01:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:02:40 msmith0957: you could store a pointer to the last element of the list in your queue structure so that you can insert or remove off the end quickly. 19:02:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:03:09 hm 19:04:02 how does removal work then if i did that, id stil have to walk up the list to get to node n-1, because its singly linked 19:04:33 you could _add_ to the end of the list and remove from the front 19:06:42 -!- bitonic [~user@5e0f8472.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:10:01 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.25.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:16 pnpu1f [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl20-210-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:12:00 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:14:15 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:15:19 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.76] has joined #lisp 19:16:20 atsidi [~nkraft_@184.75.208.2] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 the thing i still dont understand with lisp is how pointers are handled vs when things are simply copied 19:16:56 -!- pnpu1f [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:17:03 slightly different solution, but a doubly-linked list based on singly-linked-lists could work too 19:17:23 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:17:27 (based on structs may be simpler 19:17:40 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 19:18:24 things are never copied. 19:18:24 I don't think anything is copied unless you explicitly do so. atoms like characters and numbers just aren't mutatable 19:18:28 -!- ^[ is now known as binbit 19:18:35 ok my wrong dir was setted to $(pwd). Now it works even without setting inferior-lisp-program to "abcl" :) . Thanks H4ns ! 19:23:34 so, is doing something like (nconc my-list (cons new-item ())) a way of appending to my list, without excessive traversal/copying > 19:23:40 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.159] has joined #lisp 19:24:35 so emacs load path was different from abcl.jar path 19:25:01 nconc still traverses to the end. that's why keeping a pointer there might be a good idea, so you can just (setf (cdr lastptr) (list new-item) lastptr (cdr lastptr)) or something. 19:25:12 msmith0957: there's no way to append to the end of a linked list, without walking from the element you have, to the last element. you can't just jump to the end if you don't know where that end is. 19:25:20 msmith0957: (cons something ()) is often written as (list something) 19:25:49 msmith0957: have you benchmarked that your solution is too slow? (also, push-vector-extend might be something you'd like to use 19:26:06 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:15 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:34 i suppose i was hoping for magic on the list, but yeah that makes sense i cant just go to the end without traversal. 19:28:02 as far as benchmarking is concerned, im supposed to gather some statistics on my solution as far as run time between my bfs/dfs/a* approaches 19:28:29 what were talking about now is for bfs obviously, which runs prety quickly, even with a crappy implementation 19:28:51 then again, im talking one puzzle at a time, instead of 100s like i should probably be runing to get ddecent stats 19:29:04 msmith0957: benchmarking can be very interesting if you want to write fast code. you can often get away with very slow code-sections in 50% or more of your code-base. 19:29:20 fast fast code! yep :) 19:29:23 msmith0957: without a measurable overhead, that is 19:29:47 the faster the better! 19:30:45 msmith0957: if you need a fifo queue, i'd use a vector or something similar, not a linked list. 19:31:29 i think i started with a vector, and then realized it wasnt working for me 19:31:34 msmith0957: they aren't hard to use either and it'll be a sane implementation. simple. 19:31:39 msmith0957: why wasn't it working? 19:31:53 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:57 with a vector, you continue pushing items to the end of the vector, correct? 19:31:59 why? you can do insertion and deletion in O(1) on a list fine 19:32:19 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl20-210-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:32:21 but, as far as popping from the list, dont i end up with wasted cells in the beginning of the vector 19:32:52 so, if i have vect (1 2 3), i remove 1, so then its (_ 2 3) ? 19:33:04 msmith0957: you could use multiple vectors, push to the end, pop from the front and walk over them like that, if that's understandable 19:33:10 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:33:24 msmith0957: no, by default it'll remove from the end 19:33:40 msmith0957: but yes, that's how you'd want to use it 19:33:51 msmith0957: everything will be O(1) 19:34:50 nauar [~Grunt@113.Red-83-49-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:21 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:31 madnificent: if i do things like i was mentioning, il end up with something like (_ _ _ _ ... 9 10 11) , what happens to that wasted space in the beginning as i pop items from the front of the list, as i'm adding to the end (FIFO) 19:36:38 vector-push{-extend} and vector-pop work on the end, with a fill-pointer. 19:37:16 yeah, but if i wanted to pop from the front.. how would that be done 19:37:23 with a vector, if it can be done 19:37:58 msmith0957: if you work with multiple vectors of fixed length, you can start reusing the vector once it's been emptied. 19:38:53 that sounds doable.. but may take more time for me than is worth it at the moment 19:38:54 There isn't anything built-in. 19:39:15 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:40:10 -!- estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:40:42 msmith0957: so you'll have multiple vectors. if you pop an element, you take the first element of the first available vector. if that vector is empty (meaning you walked past the last element), you take the first element of the next vector in the list and put the empty vector at the end of the list of vectors. if you push an element, you push the element to the current vector, if the current vector is full, you see if th 19:40:42 vector after this one, if so you push it there, if not you push it to a new vector. it just depends on how much you want to try and learn :) 19:41:13 is there a problem with using a linked list and maintaining an end pointer? I don't think you need a circuar buffer. 19:41:16 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:41:31 Bike: no 19:41:37 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:46 Yeah, i think Bikes suggestion is probably better, for my case at least 19:41:49 Bike: aside from popping off of it, that's not going to be O(1) (you need to find the previous end) 19:41:57 Bike: it's Good Enough for most use cases. 19:42:02 o 19:42:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:42:39 though it didn't seem this was an exercise of sanity, it's some assignment to figure out how to code things. suddenly practicality has a different priority 19:43:05 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 19:43:06 -!- nauar [~Grunt@113.Red-83-49-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 19:44:11 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 19:44:20 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:40 madnificent: my current solution, while slower, still 'works'. i am of course trying to learn a little lisp, and figure out best practices, and how guys with much more experience than me would solve these fundamental problems. But as my deadline approaches, as far as actual implemtnation goes, i have to be weary of the risk in spending too much time in areas of the project that wil simply not score me so many points ;) 19:49:51 mmm 19:50:20 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:50:21 msmith0957: that's how i work most often. build something that works first, then optimize where needed. make sure the architecture allows for optimization later on (luckily lisp isn't too hard on you on that front) 19:50:36 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 19:50:37 who say this? : the points? :) 19:50:39 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:51:42 Posterdati: parse-float has been fixed 19:52:25 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 19:52:34 madnificent: yeah, i agree thats usually the best way to go. unfortunately one of my problems in general as a developer in general is i get stuck on the little things. i'm working on it =p 19:52:37 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:53:00 msmith0957: that tends to change with experience 19:54:28 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:31 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 19:54:35 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-141-122.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:25 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:56:58 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:13 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:24 rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-141-122.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 msmith0957: for me the basic double-ended queue implementation is a doubly linked list 20:02:08 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-141-122.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:17 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[~user@201.47.46.244.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:54 Why do people keep asking me to join this channel? 20:33:17 Someone specially joined # and said join this channel and try to work out what the conversation is about. 20:33:47 Keshi: currently, there's no conversation going on (: 20:33:58 Keshi: well... what did you talk about before that? :) 20:34:33 antifuchs: Nothing... people were just idling. 20:35:04 paul0 [~user@201.47.46.244.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:35:36 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:35:39 Keshi: well, you're welcome to lurk, or try learning Common Lisp 20:36:45 enth 20:36:45 10/19/12 7:20:47 AM enthdegree just join #list 20:36:46 10/19/12 7:28:47 AM Keshi enthdegree: No. 20:36:46 10/19/12 7:29:16 AM enthdegree what 20:36:46 10/19/12 7:29:18 AM enthdegree aaaa 20:36:46 10/19/12 7:29:19 AM enthdegree aaeuaehe 20:36:46 10/19/12 7:29:24 AM enthdegree You did Not see this, Keshi 20:36:47 10/19/12 7:29:29 enthdegree AM you did Not see this 20:36:47 10/19/12 7:29:53 AM JoshuaP has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 20:36:48 10/19/12 7:29:58 AM enthdegree has left () 20:37:02 Happened last night too. 20:37:23 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:37:30 Were they trying to get you to join #list? 20:37:31 Tuxedo, memo from redline6561: see https://github.com/redline6561/colorize/issues/1 You just need to wrap the return value of html-colorization in a
 block. Other code (3bmd) expects the current behavior but I am strongly considering changing it to return a 
 block.
20:37:33  Keshi: next time use a pastebin, please?
20:37:37  'Cause this is #lisp.
20:37:47  Keshi: please don't paste lines of text here.  also, that's #list, not #lisp.  please move tehre if you don't want to learn lisp :)
20:37:59  and yes, #list is invite-only
20:38:48  madnificent: I mostly deal with procedural programming languages.  I had to use Haskell a while ago though, Lisp is a bit like that, no?
20:39:30  Keshi: lisp is multi-paradigm.  so it can roughly do what you can do in haskell, but it can also do procedural.  it's non-limiting.  if you want to become a better programmer, you should probably learn it.
20:39:32 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp
20:39:42  Keshi: not really - Common Lisp, at least, is more about multi-paradigm - you can code imperatively, you can use OOP (and a much more awesome brand of OOP!), you can write functional
20:39:52  Keshi: idiomatic CL tends to be a mix of all three
20:40:22  Though CL doesn't do lazy eval by default.
20:40:37  Or pattern matching in function arguments.
20:40:51  well, at least some people I know prefer strict evaluation by default instead of lazy
20:40:59  and optional lazy is much easier than lazy by default
20:41:17  that's the main thing I'm missing from CL. something like lazy lists, or python generators
20:41:29  Keshi: furthermore, if you want to learn it and you know some other languages like, say, Java or python, practical common lisp is a good resource (freely available online, and at cost in printed form)
20:41:51  DrPete: you can implement lazy evaluation in lisp too if you need it for something
20:42:24  DrPete: streams?
20:42:25  jasom: see https://github.com/esessoms/iomux-acceptor
20:42:51  DrPete: but it won't lazily evaluate what's standardly available in the common lisp package.  but you shouldn't be limited to non-lazy evaluation :)
20:42:53  i'll look up streams
20:43:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:43:40  and well... at least on SBCL, making lazy sequences should be easy
20:43:54 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:43:55 -!- `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20:44:14  i don't really -need- laziness, I'd just like to be able to do haskell-like map/filter/fold stuff without it building up a bunch of huge intermediate lists
20:44:36  DrPete: sadly, not the streams described in the spec. See .
20:44:51  p_l: actually, not without breaking the spec.
20:44:53  DrPete: then I guess you could build a macro in style of map
20:45:20  and a generator of sors
20:45:21  DrPete: There's SERIES, but people tend to just use a different programming style, or not care.
20:45:35  yes, series was interesting, but it has limitations
20:46:03 sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp
20:46:05  i'll look that up
20:46:12  and pipes
20:46:15 elliottcable [~me@ell.io] has joined #lisp
20:46:53  Is it past some kind of due date to advance-register for the International Lisp Conference?
20:47:21  I think so
20:47:31  madnificent: Sure, way more stuff is available in C89 though.
20:47:35 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:47:43  It is Turing complete too, so why worry about Common Lisp?
20:48:01  I should stop being a procrastinator.  I guess I'll head to that island new Hiroshima with all the rabbits instead.  thanks
20:48:01  Keshi: brainfuck is turing complete, why worry about anything else?
20:48:04  DrPete: also a quick search for "python generators" on cliki showed this: http://www.cliki.net/pygen
20:48:04  not sure if troll or uninformed
20:48:23  all turing complete languages are equal, but some are more equal than others
20:48:33  p_l: That's not in wide usage.
20:48:33  also, jasom: awesome, i will take a look at this
20:48:56  It is crazy... random people always tell me to join here and then people start accusing me of trolling.
20:49:00  If all you want is basic deforestation of pipelines of foldl, it's actually easy. Pipes was hard because it tried to handle fancy unfolds, multiple arguments and multiply-used sequences.
20:49:02  Something is seriously up here.
20:49:07  Keshi: i'm fairly certain the CLHS contains more basic constructs then C98
20:49:15 Joreji [~thomas@67-235.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp
20:49:56  Keshi: nah, we were just trying to clear up if you were uninformed (which seems the case) or trolling. Being uninformed isn't bad as long as someone is willing to try and learn
20:50:21  Keshi: anyway, languages aren't equal other than in theory - some stuff is easier in one language, some in another. What really counts is what kinds of tools you get and how productive you become because of them
20:50:35  Stuff that I consider easy in CL take writing a compiler in C
20:50:51  otherwise we'd all be programming in machine code with toggle switches
20:50:57  Stuff that is easy in Prolog require extra work in CL and writing a compiler in C (again)
20:51:02 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:51:38  stuff that makes Forth excel requires you to moan or write in bare C without standard libs, and with lots of assembler inlined
20:51:54 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.222] has joined #lisp
20:51:55  (and tends to make lispers go write an assembler ;))
20:52:16 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:52:52  Keshi: the one thing I can promise you, is that the more *differing* styles of programming languages you *know*, the better you'll be, no matter the language
20:53:03  p_l: Fair enough, surely Lisp's authors referred to epistemic justifications though?
20:53:08  Keshi: what p_l is getting at.  lisp is a handy language.  perhaps less of a dirty quick tool than other languages, but certainly good in bigger projects.  you can mold it to *your* liking, not just to the liking of the language implementor.  i assume this all must sound like random nonsense, but it really makes sense once you get to know it.
20:53:32  madnificent: Okay.
20:53:36  I should go though.
20:53:43  I need to get to a distant town.
20:53:45 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
20:53:45  Bye now.
20:53:46  Keshi: that being said, it's not bad for tools either.  i often use it for tiny things, like grabbing something from a web page.
20:53:50  Keshi: hope to see you here soon.
20:54:17 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com]
20:54:30  Keshi: btw, Lisp is *older* than C. It's C that had to justify itself ;)
20:54:35  ah, he left
20:54:44  i wonder if he'll come back
20:54:48  maybe
20:55:06  I hoped to show a good face
20:55:07  the name sounds very familiar
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21:01:23  silly question: what would the "lisp idiomatic" translation of something like a haskell pipeline "sum $ map (*2) $ filter odd" look like? until now, I'd been writing out all my "pipelines" in CL explicitly, meaning I had a lot of code duplication. i've been looking at these packages but it occurs to me if I'd be better off with like... a list of higher order functions and closures, and some kind of funcall or apply machinery, but possibly that'd just resu
21:01:29 <_tca> DrPete: i found some code from when i was messing around with what you want http://paste.lisp.org/display/132849
21:01:56  _tca: looking
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21:03:04  DrPete: (reduce #'+ (remove-if-not ...) :key (lambda (x) (* 2 x)))
21:03:40  i always forget about :key
21:03:42  DrPete: you can replace (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) with alxandria's curry.  (curry #'* 2)
21:04:02 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.222] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
21:04:06  I find :key functions in useful places significantly reduce the importance of fusion, either manual or automatic.
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21:41:45  today, to my horror, i learnt about f-underscore, and now i just want to cry
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21:44:37  ams: ieh
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21:45:22  H4ns: ?
21:45:23  xb
21:45:37  ams: why ?
21:45:44  fe[nl]ix: Why crying?
21:45:50  cause it is such a .. horrible ide?
21:46:22  idea ?
21:46:30  it is as if someone just learnt about macros and has toapply it to everything ..
21:46:36  fe[nl]ix: do you know what f-underscore is?
21:46:38  ams: it improves common lisp!  so much more concise!
21:46:53  H4ns: Yes, and it doesn't make it into ... arc.
21:46:56 estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp
21:47:38  ams: are you complaining?  i'm sure if you try hard enough, you can create something as beautiful as arc entirely in common lisp!
21:47:44  ams: yes, and it does seem a bad idea
21:47:56  pachs
21:48:18  I was browsing through the weblocks code to figure out some things, and like come across f_% ...
21:48:30  but despairing over bad ideas found over the internet seems to me a waste of time :)
21:48:34  heh.
21:48:41  first i'm like, ok, funny variable... then .. oh, it is a funcall... no.. it is a macro.. wtf, what does it do?
21:49:06  fe[nl]ix: yeah well, i'm going to bed and need some luving!
21:49:35  sorrry
21:49:39  sorry
21:50:33  ; the idea is to make functional programs shorter and easier to read without resorting
21:50:33  ; to syntax [like arc's square bracket unary function syntax]
21:50:34  ...
21:50:36  sighs
21:50:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.107.167] has joined #lisp
21:51:23   the idea is to make functional programs shorter and easier to read without resorting
21:52:20  estefani: changing the language as an attempt to make things "easier to read" is most often a fallacy
21:53:15  specially when it comes to idiomatic parts of the language ... there is nothing hard to read about (lambda (x) ...)
21:53:15  estefani: things are easy to read when the essence is visible, and the essence of common lisp is common lisp, not some macro gibberish invented just to make things shorter.
21:53:33  when looping: (loop for var in list do (when condition (return)) ...) stops the loop when condition is met but how can I just skip that one var and continue the looping ?
21:53:58  Now, I did frob my emacs to change lambda into a proper lambda ... but that was without macros and other gibberish
21:54:16 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp
21:54:37  hola
21:55:09  you are gringos
21:55:12  H4ns: there is a tipping point though.  At what point is it better to embed prolog code in lisp than to write logic code in lisp?
21:55:20  francogrex: goto?
21:55:31  :( hmmm
21:56:06  jasom: taste is involved.  there are good reasons to extend the language, but "conciseness" is usually not such a reason.
21:56:20 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-156-19.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:56:31  i love
21:56:43  jasom: I'd never embedd prolog code as such... just write a sexp based prolog eval loop and done ..
21:56:46  jasom: prolog, or some rule-engine, might be needed when significant amounts of logic (pun intended) are built through such operations and not through normal funcitons
21:56:49  *functions
21:56:55  what else you've got?
21:57:07  sexp
21:57:09  francogrex: are you looking for the collect clause in loop?
21:57:13  jasom: also, at some point it might be good idea to consider proper prolog system and interface to that
21:57:27  francogrex: block?
21:57:56  jasom: they are usually much, much more efficient and polished than lisp embedded ones
21:58:07  H4ns: soulds like he's looking for something like C's "continue"
21:58:10  not at all. I'm looking to skip one looping if a certain condition is met and go to the next iteration instead of exiting the loop with (return)
21:58:21 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
21:58:44  ams: a block and a tagbody inside a loop doesn't seem the most efficient solution
21:59:05  ...
21:59:08  francogrex: maybe you don't want to use a simple loop?
21:59:23  would a loop variable work?
21:59:28  (loop ... (block continue ... (return-from continue)))
21:59:29  francogrex: you could do an unless block
21:59:33  seems quite clean enough for me..
21:59:44  and efficient
21:59:50  you could probably macroexpand the loop and learn the names of the symbols to GO to
22:00:10  premature optimization me thinks ..
22:00:37  whenever i start with a complex loop and find myself trying to figure out non-trivial control flows, i revert to a simple loop and use whatever lisp offers to implement the flow i need in a clean manner
22:00:46  (loop for i in foo unless (predicate i) collect i into bar and sum (f i) into baz)
22:00:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:00:54  but loop is for blackbelts, as we all know
22:01:02  i hate loop, always did...
22:01:05 *H4ns* takes his orange belt and goes to bed
22:01:08  when i need to use loop i rethink
22:01:09  ams: *5*
22:01:34  ams: simple loop is great
22:01:44 *jasom* uses loop whenever it will do what it says it does
22:01:44  people who think eval is evil really ned to play with loop ...
22:01:45  sometimes I love the extended loop, though
22:01:50  loop is plain satan :-)
22:02:32  H4ns: nod
22:02:53  If I've written loop code and I find it's not obvious what it does from reading it, I rewrite it in some other way
22:03:03  (possible without loop)
22:03:09  simple loop, dotimes, and dolist... don't need more...
22:03:22  (or recursion)
22:04:05 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.46.244.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:04:26  ams: yes block is elegant and efficient ok
22:04:55  you can pry loop from my cold, dead hands.  To me it is an example of what is right and good about lisp.
22:05:04  I am allergic to goto that's why but block is fine
22:05:09  jasom: horror ..
22:05:13  francogrex: block _is_ goto
22:05:23  jasom: you like format too?
22:05:24  jasom: you mean "batteries included. Nukes too"? ;)
22:06:13  ams: both loop and format have their place.  the goal is to write code quickly and to make sure it's easy to understand.  for some things both loop and format are great, for others they can be horrible.  (especially format)
22:06:16  p_l: kind of; it's a good starting point for talking about DSLs since it's just a DSL for looping
22:06:44  ams: format certainly has its warts
22:07:22  madnificent: uhm, no, that is not the goal of format (or loop)
22:08:11  sure wasn't the goal for the muppets that sat down and standardised common lisp.
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22:12:25  ams: 'the goal' wasn't there solely for loop and format, it was broader.  with loop i'd argue that it's the case.  and with format it may be the case too.  expressing how something should be printed quickly becomes a lot of code, it's not *because* it is condensed in a shorter sequence that it's inherently hard to understand. i think it's not *because* a piece of code takes a while to read that it's inherently bad either.  s
22:12:25  format expresses, i find it fair.  loop is very expressive imo.  but yes, you can write annoyingly hard to read code with mostly all constructs that are given to you.
22:13:11  madnificent: You're talking out of your nightcap, son.
22:13:38  ams: not really.  do you grasp what i'm trying to express?
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22:14:11  madnificent: Yes, you're trying to rewrite history, nothing of what you said is true when it comes to loop or format, or the history behind them.
22:14:20  ams: i'm not talking about history
22:14:21  not anywhere
22:14:28  ams: so, i guess that was a 'no' then?
22:14:59  madnificent: "the goal" infers history, as in the goal of the thinking behind the two functions/macros.
22:15:11  madnificent: And that sure wasn't the goal of format/loop, in any sense of the word.
22:15:19  "the goal" is intended to be about code in general.  the goal when writing code.
22:15:42  but you know what ams.  i'm not going to care about what you think :)  i'm going to hack something instead.  enjoy your stay! :D
22:15:56  (not intending anything bad, just not into arguing)
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22:17:10  madnificent: see you in bed later honey?
22:18:08  hmm... was thinking, on the lispm's you could view relationships between classes graphically... anyone got anything like that?
22:18:14  ams: i strongly advise you to stay out of my bed
22:18:33  ams: yes, there are some tools for it, look around.
22:19:13  madnificent: useful, got a name for such a tool?
22:20:33  ams: sorry, i'm way past my bedtime now.  you should look it up yourself!  good luck
22:21:25 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:21:31  .. very useful.
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22:30:11  (nilp x) doesn't exist, so (when (not x) ...) ?
22:30:29 msmith09571 [~Mike@c-76-124-107-175.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
22:30:32  (null ...)
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22:32:42  ams: you always got a wise answer
22:32:57 *francogrex* pissed off because knows less than average
22:33:13  francogrex: i'm not average :-)
22:33:33  then I feel a little better about myself
22:34:47  anyone using stumpwm?
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22:34:57  ams: ack
22:35:13  ams: there's also a channel for it #stumpwm, but traffic can be low
22:35:16  but same as not: (null nil) vs (not nil)
22:35:28  madnificent: Aren't you sleeping yet, boy?
22:35:33  francogrex: but it has a different meaning
22:35:53  if the effect is the same; what meaning?
22:36:00  francogrex: the two are quite different, check the hyperspec
22:36:09  ams: no, i found your arrogance in my bad.  as it turns out, it's so big that it's not even small enough to stay in this channel.
22:36:19  madnificent: touche! :-)
22:36:32  ams: but aside from that, anything in particular you want to know?
22:37:05  madnificent: About stumpwm?
22:37:09  yup
22:37:29  madnificent: Is it usable for everyday hacking?
22:37:45  Last time I tried it it really wasn't.
22:37:54  yes, very.  it's quite easy to change into what you need it to do.  and it's stable.
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22:38:06  interesting
22:38:13  you may also like to look into clfswm, though i found that less stable, more hacking is happening in it.
22:38:14  does it work well with clim stuff?
22:38:20 smogprez [~clarkeaa@50-0-18-170.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp
22:38:31  i don't use clim-based software
22:38:41  (not for any reason)
22:39:01  nod
22:39:17  i just have some old cruft i wrote a long time ago
22:39:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.241.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:39:32  (think it might even be clim 1 stuff)
22:39:33  i guess it should work.  i see no reason why it wouldn't.
22:40:42  same lisp instance?
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22:41:33  try it!  stumpwm is in quicklisp
22:42:06  ...
22:42:11  is it?
22:42:12  cool
22:42:33  quicklisp is like the best thing that has happend in a long long time
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22:53:29  seems it is that time of year where one yearns for the old days of the lispm
22:56:14  i have to admit that i am using xmonad as a tiling-wm, rock stable and works, looks like haskell isn't  so bad
22:56:25  urandom__: i've used that in the past too
22:56:49  and now you use?
22:56:56  stumpwm
22:56:58 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp
22:57:41  just because of ideologie or is stumpwm better at something?
22:58:44  urandom__: i ran ion2, ion3, clfswm too.  and the obvious twm, fluxbox.  and i try to thoroughly look at new things like unity and gnome too (no kde, for some reason).
22:59:25  urandom__: i mostly switched because it was written in lisp.  at the time i couldn't hack it, but i stuck to it.  now i can easily hack it and i don't want to switch away from it.  if i'd have to switch, it'd probably be to ion
22:59:33  (but i don't want to)
23:00:06  oh ion wast even on my list
23:00:28  I just use emacs. :-)
23:01:00  hacking stump and clfswm is easier than hacking xmonad imo.  though the reload is gone from xmonad too, so that'll make it a tad better.
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23:02:36  is it really much better? i mean sure i don't know much haskell but i could still get my stuff done and is just a keypress for it to reload
23:03:16  i would imagine doing the same on stumpwm for a lisp-noob would be much harder
23:03:40  urandom__: for me, it really is that much better, but i think a lot of that comes from me finding my way in lisp quite easy these days.  i'm less frustrated than in haskell.  so it may be different for you.  being able to connect slime to your wm and just hack some code in there does make a big difference imo.
23:04:28  urandom__: i guess it depends on what you'd want to do.  i didn't need to change much about it.  i mostly hack it when i need something different in the modline (for instance, how far a package is when i'm tracking it, or whether or not the charger of my lappy is working correctly)
23:05:56  madnificent: got your hacks up somewhere?
23:05:56  well i am not the type to always hack, i want it to just work and be happy at some point (like it does now)
23:06:31 axion1 [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
23:06:33  ams: not really.  but honestly, it's trivially simple.  putting something in the modeline is the most complex thing, the rest is getting the information from somewhere.
23:06:57  madnificent: well, yeah, though you might have some "fun" hacks though
23:06:59  ams: and putting something in the modeline really isn't hard at all :)
23:07:02 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:07:42  madnificent: not refering to stumpwm hacks, common lisp hacks in general
23:08:03  ams: except from everything being on the top-map and bound to the right control-key (which is made to resemble the super key), my stumpwm is very vanilla
23:08:08  it is good to hear that stumpwm is useable, so CL is still not inferior to haskell when it comes to wm ;)
23:08:34  ams: my libraries are on github, little hacks are mostly related to local things.  unless you want some gsl package tracking, that's international.
23:08:53  url?
23:08:57 -!- SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
23:09:05  you can't type github.com and a nickname?
23:09:10  github.com/madnificent
23:09:36  sorry, that was uncalled for
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23:21:03  cool... mcclim works from quicklisp
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23:25:50  hi
23:25:57  hello bman25
23:26:17 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: pa/bye]
23:26:38  I'm in the office, so I cannot talk for a long time. But I reall want to ask a question.
23:27:03  then don't ask to ask!  quickly, just ask
23:27:35  Is it a good idea to choose lisp for a complete-novice in programming?
23:27:53  I heard that it won't be easy...
23:28:25  bman25: it might an... interesting choice
23:28:45  i believe it is.  there are some good books about it.  some people will say that you're crazy.  however, i think lisp is one of those languages in which you can grow as a programmer.  it helps you realize that syntax is superficial.  thus, it lets you focus on the concepts of programming, not the details of some syntax.
23:29:09  bman25: Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Programming is pretty nice for a newcomer
23:29:25  bman25: and that's over there > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
23:29:59  sicp?
23:30:01  also, if you're ambitious, SICP. If less ambitious (and probably a bit more scheme-oriented), HTDP, aka How To Design Programs
23:30:29  (SICP = Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a brilliant course but not necessarily for faint of heart)
23:30:50  I deeply appreciate your advices. I will check those bookS!
23:31:19  bman25: don't forget to drop in if you get stuck :)
23:31:25  bman25: i'd advise gentle as a book.  it's thick, but it makes you grasp what programming is about.  so you won't have an application running as quickly as with some introductions, but you'll understand what you're doing
23:31:29  Thsnks everyone!
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23:31:38  bman25: sicp was used as an introdutionary cours in programming in MIT
23:31:53  judging from this it should be good for novice programmer
23:32:12  antonv: i guess he'll be back
23:32:16  antonv: SICP reminds me sometimes of the "do or fail" courses :)
23:32:42  except that you're not supposed to be able to fail first year at MIT
23:32:59  ah, he's quit already. ok, let's wish him luck
23:33:23  amazing that franz inc is still in business ..
23:33:34 *p_l*  former MIT applicant (didn't get in)
23:33:46 *madnificent* likes it when genuienly interested persons walk by
23:33:55  ams: well, they seem to be doing pretty well in the semantic data field
23:34:12  p_l: understatement :)
23:34:26  madnificent: I don't know enough to put it better :)
23:34:46  p_l: nice
23:35:08 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
23:35:10  was the Xanalys LinkExplorer in LW or ACL?
23:35:52  what about corman? still alive?
23:36:31  corman is pretty much dead (a pity). The company seems to be alive, but I haven't heard of public work on their lisp compiler since 3.0
23:36:41  they seem to be working in medical field now
23:37:32  mm..
23:39:52  ACL seems to be more in bespoke data manipulation stuff, or so it seems from occassional boasts. LW shows up in stuff delivered for... more normal prices?
23:40:30  but I'm not the best source
23:40:45  what I can tell you is that the ACL people are pretty easy to approach
23:43:44  mm..
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