00:00:15 note that you can fulfill that at cost of slower boot. And that if you provide your client with a code-access license *without* redistribution etc., you still fulfill LGPL because they can compile it locally 00:00:39 elderK: you can statically link, so long as you provide a way for people to relink with a modified version of ECL 00:01:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 00:01:07 however, when ECL is built with dynamic link support, you get libecl :) 00:02:19 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:22 and SBCL and CMUCL are BSDish licensed, right? 00:04:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:04:55 danlentz [~danlentz@c-76-117-5-156.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:59 some bsd and some public domain, I think 00:05:08 I would use SBCL like MIT/BSD code, just in case some piece somewhere is under BSD 00:05:14 public domain in general, afaik 00:05:31 CMUCL... not sure, it might be CMU license 00:05:45 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:11 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:09:11 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:11:11 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S01060007e9558060.vw.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 00:11:25 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:12:28 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:43 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:12:44 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@63.251.54.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:23 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:33 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:14:03 -!- nicdev` is now known as nicdev 00:16:35 lggr 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-!- daniel3 is now known as ANDRES1 02:48:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:43 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:49:52 replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 02:53:24 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 02:53:31 -!- nlpplz [~nlpplz@24-176-224-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:54:32 does local-time have a way to parse rfc-1123 timestrings that I'm missing? 02:54:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:27 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-60-84.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:50 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:06 nlpplz [~nlpplz@24-176-224-131.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:19 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 02:57:37 Bike: Isn' 02:57:46 Bike: Isn't that superceeded by RFC 3339? 02:57:56 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S01060007e9558060.vw.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 02:58:01 I wouldn't know. 02:58:06 Thanks. 02:58:11 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:58:35 RFC 3339 describes a limited version of ISO 8601 03:00:26 -!- benny [~user@i577A8C4D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:27 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 03:01:59 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:59 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:03:51 setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 03:05:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:05:49 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:54 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia 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has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:50:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:50:47 pirateking9_9 [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 08:54:19 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:54:20 -!- pirateking9_9 is now known as pirateking-_- 08:54:28 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:55:49 parenscript has a few conflicts - FOR with iterate, SWITCH with alexandria, etc. 08:56:45 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:56:47 They're not bound in parenscript, so I think the easiest way is to import the various symbols into parenscript. (Better than shadowing and having other issues then). 08:57:02 What's the preferred way to import symbols into a "foreign" package? 08:57:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:59:11 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:00:23 kenanb [kenanb@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 09:00:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:07:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:08:03 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 09:08:25 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:10:54 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:12:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:15:38 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:15:41 studies so far show the book "ANSI Common Lisp" is pretty good 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the connection] 10:39:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:42:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:45:36 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wmfjqaysxzcihmqw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:49:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:51:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:53:42 codemarine [~codemarin@pool-98-117-73-174.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:15 -!- codemarine [~codemarin@pool-98-117-73-174.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 10:58:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:59:02 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-xpkhddsdiwuocpjg] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:01:31 for what? 11:02:00 Xach: for learning 11:02:43 don't mistake it for a good book on learning Common Lisp 11:02:49 Xach: oh, I thought it was that 11:02:54 maybe I did make the mistake 11:02:55 phew 11:03:17 -!- arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:33 Xach: I wanted something to read after PCL, it's looking suitable for this purpose so far. 11:04:34 I'd suggest Paradigms of AI Programming too 11:04:59 Xach: this is also on my list 11:07:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:35 I don't like ANSI Common Lisp very much for its emphasis on writing lots of small utility functions & macros, bad names, shortchanging loop and clos, and totally ignorning packages 11:10:04 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 11:10:31 Xach: I like the sound of writing small utility functions and macros. 11:10:36 Xach: why bad 11:10:38 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 11:10:57 That is a recipe for writing in mstevens-lisp rather than Common Lisp; it inhibits mutual collaboration and understanding. 11:11:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:11:20 small utility functions and macros are great, spending more than 50% of your time coming up with them for every project is not so great 11:12:31 I think the temptation, when reading ANSI Common Lisp, is to feel like you're just the person to fix up everything it's missing before actually knowing it well. 11:12:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:12:38 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.180] has joined #lisp 11:13:22 That was the temptation to which I succumbed, anyway, and it took me a while to learn to use CL better. 11:13:36 I think it's a decent book if you can put it in context and not treat it like a bible. 11:13:40 Xach: aren't utility functions desirable code reuse? 11:13:56 I mean,the opposite seems to be repeatedly writing the same code when you could put it in a function 11:14:28 mstevens: Possibly. I think making good decisions about it requires a lot of experience. Sometimes (sometimes) writing the same code out can be better than writing a utility function. 11:14:37 agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:07 mstevens: like everyone else, i had a large collection of personal utilities after my first two years of cl. i've abandoned all of them and use alexandria and proper libraries now. 11:16:21 H4ns: I think if it's "here's my hacky functions I use in every project!11!"!" it's probably bad, but if it's "here's this useful library I wrote" it's fine. At least this is my tentative theory. 11:16:44 mstevens: one part of it is that this makes my code easier to understand because i don't use "personal" things. another part of it is that i'm not such a great programmer, and writing great utilities takes a lot of care and time. 11:17:15 mstevens: if it is a useful library, then it does not belong into a "personal" utility collection. 11:17:28 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17:38 the other answer is that I'm actually somewhat open to the idea of writing mstevens-lisp 11:18:00 the lisp curse! 11:18:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18:53 H4ns: I'm on a vaguely steve yegge inspired mission to make myself productive at the possible cost of working with other people 11:19:47 mstevens: consider starting with custom "standard" package in place of CL, and see how it works for you 11:19:48 mstevens: i'm on a mission to make myself productive and not leave a mess for the next person who has to pick up my work :) 11:20:25 p_l: I plan to be cautious! we'll see 11:20:42 p_l: So far I wrote like about 20 lines of code, tis early days of hackery 11:21:10 *p_l* uses custom cl package, but it doesn't change much, more like it evens out implementation differences 11:21:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:21:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-27-166.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:25:09 p_l: what kind of stuff? 11:26:39 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:26:44 Xach: closer-mop, chiefly 11:27:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:27:09 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 11:27:18 I also add conduits, because I found them useful in some package wrangling if I want clean code 11:28:54 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 11:28:54 I think I added alexandria in some cases 11:30:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:30:44 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.71] has joined #lisp 11:34:38 pequod [d52f3c0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.47.60.13] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 kanru` [~kanru@1-162-49-128.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:22 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:40:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:41:11 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:43:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:46:51 -!- kenanb [kenanb@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:47:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:47:47 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:49:48 -!- cnl [~pony@95.106.96.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:39 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:53:34 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:54:12 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:54:59 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:57:51 babysnakes [~babysnake@mx1.babysnakes.org] has joined #lisp 11:57:59 cnl [~pony@95.106.100.60] has joined #lisp 11:58:10 -!- babysnakes [~babysnake@mx1.babysnakes.org] has left #lisp 11:58:56 -!- agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:00:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:01:07 Joreji [~thomas@79-006.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:10 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:04:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:05:30 agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:05:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.248] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 12:06:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:08:06 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:10:00 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.248] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:48 -!- cnl [~pony@95.106.100.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:52 -!- cibs [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:13:19 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:15 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:14:15 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 12:14:15 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:16:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17:59 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:18:45 cnl [~pony@95.106.8.79] has joined #lisp 12:19:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:19:20 parenscript has a few conflicts - FOR with iterate, SWITCH with alexandria, etc. 12:19:29 They're not bound in parenscript, so I think the easiest way is to import the various symbols into parenscript. (Better than shadowing and having other issues then). 12:19:34 What's the preferred way to import symbols into a "foreign" package? 12:19:39 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:46 nephrite [~nephrite@h86-62-123-114.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:22 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:28:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:31:04 flip214: repeating oneself is not generally a good way to communicate 12:32:24 cmm: perhaps, but I got no answer in the morning ... 12:32:45 parenscript is basically a lispy syntax for javascript, no? if so, I can hardly think of any situation in which you'd :use it together with alexandria or whatever 12:32:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:33:38 also, some people here will go as far as say that :use'ing things like alexandria is a bad idea anyway 12:33:47 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:49 well, my own package :uses alexandria. and if I don't use the symbols from parenscript, I'd have to write (parenscript:ps ...) etc. 12:33:54 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:34:34 well, the answer "don't use :alexandria" is good, and I can try that - but I get conflicts with :iterate, too, and who knows what I'll find later? 12:34:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:35:30 but but. parenscript is not even CL, am I right or am I right? in what way writing in parenscript and using stuff from alexandria would even make sense? 12:36:51 cmm: the view parts of mvc need to output HTML (and JS), and having alexandria utility function there makes sense, too (at least to me). 12:37:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:38:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:38:41 flip214: ah. I would definitely explicitly qualify either alexandria or parenscript symbols, then. or even both. the corresponding similarly-named symbols mean completely different things, after all. 12:43:54 -!- sonnym [~sonny@cpe-24-59-181-37.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:44:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:22 LiamH [~healy@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:47:15 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:48:28 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-xpkhddsdiwuocpjg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48:38 bitonic [~user@dyn902-9.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 -!- kanru` [~kanru@1-162-49-128.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:58 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 12:50:40 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-60-84.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:53 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 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[~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:00:08 -!- `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:14 -!- pequod [d52f3c0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.47.60.13] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:02:15 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:05:23 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:28 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:09:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:09:16 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 14:10:29 -!- faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: faust45] 14:11:17 doesn't parenscript have a "PS" nickname for easy USE-less usage? 14:11:46 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:11:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.42.61] has joined #lisp 14:11:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.42.61] has quit [Changing host] 14:11:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:12:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:15:49 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:34 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:18:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20:08 pkhuong: yes, I believe it does. Still, having to use that on eg. (PS:DEFUN) looks strange ... 14:21:29 Right. (defun ...) not being cl:defun is much more normal. 14:21:36 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:15 that's why I asked about having PS: symbols EQ to the ones of ITERATE, ALEXANDRIA etc. ... so that there's no distinction! 14:23:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:40 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:48 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:27:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:29:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:30:58 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:31:23 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:34 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:32:52 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:33:05 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:35:12 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 14:35:14 chturne [~chturne@78-105-198-180.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:36:04 gotta love this sarcasm thing 14:36:41 Is it possible to implement multi-user server that will store each connection ID for each connected user using pure functional style? I don't have an idea how to do it w/o using global variable. 14:37:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:12 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:33 -!- hkBst__ is now known as hkBst 14:37:37 hitecnologys: how can you implement a server of any kind using pure functional style? 14:37:55 without using monads... 14:37:56 hitecnologys: there is no pure functional common lisp. 14:38:01 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 14:38:12 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:16 pkhuong: you can write CL in a very functional style if so inclined 14:38:17 pkhuong: Why? 14:38:18 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:50 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:57 jdz: If server doesn't store anything then I definitely could do it. 14:39:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:39:13 hitecnologys: it does not do any input or output, too, right? 14:39:18 hitecnologys: because defun is a side effect. 14:39:52 pkhuong: I mean side effects at runtime, not at initialization. 14:41:40 hitecnologys: where do you store your connected users (without IDs) in your pure functional server implementation? 14:42:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:42:10 you could store it inside the handler object 14:42:21 hitecnologys: the debugger is an effect. Dynamic binding breaks referential transparency. CL doesn't do pure functional. Not that anything useful does. FUnctional style ought to be about the way programs are structured, not their implementation. 14:42:28 pkhuong: in that sense, haskell has side-effects too (to some extent) 14:43:09 So, the solution is global variable? 14:43:23 But what if 2 threads try to modify it? 14:43:35 make sure they don't 14:43:38 "don't" 14:44:07 basho [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:19 assigning to a global variable is probably fine, really. 14:44:35 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:04 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 But I use different thread for each client, how can I synchronize them w/o using semaphores? 14:47:04 -!- nonguest is now known as reb 14:47:41 Should I use one thread for this? 14:48:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:48:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48:27 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:36 hitecnologys: hunchentoot uses dynamic variables 14:48:46 *session*/*request*/etc 14:49:42 Okay, let's try this without synchronization. 14:49:55 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 Greetings lispers 14:50:18 ThomasH: Greetings! 14:50:21 hello! 14:50:29 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:51:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:51:28 when did threads enter the picture? 14:52:25 pkhuong, CL can do pure functional quite well 14:53:09 pkhuong: There're two events: auth-request and data-request. On auth-request server writes data, on data-request server reads data and sends it to client. 14:55:32 Fare: everything you type at the REPL, you trigger a load of side effects. We can build functional abtractions and structure programs to minimise the use of mutation and effects, but that's not this "pure functional style" imagined by people with a manichean view of effects. 14:56:29 Thre 14:56:39 There is just as much functional style as anywhere 14:56:55 you abstract the side effects under a pure functional API 14:57:05 and thence only use said API 14:57:34 how is that any the less pure functional than any pure functional language? 14:57:38 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:58:08 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:58:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:58:42 conversely, after you start using enough monads, how is your Haskell code any the less imperative than any imperative language? 14:58:44 I don't know of any pure functional language. It's a gradient of defaults. 15:00:14 I don't know of many programs that only want to compute a result, without any side effect 15:00:18 my understanding is that functional style is about referential transparency. ensure that and your style is as functional as it can be 15:00:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00:23 like, don't even think about saving away your work 15:00:44 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:02:17 CL's default is full of effects; even without the obvious assignment, mutation, IO and non-termination, there are all the dynamic operators, from specials to catch/throw and block/return-from to conditions, and the fact that the features we use during development are defined in terms of mutations to the image. 15:04:58 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:05:37 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 15:06:25 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:07:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:07:07 cmm, pkhuong: even the parenscript tutorial says to :USE it. 15:07:17 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-yhjdhxgkjglzgnva] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:07:29 which books about lisp do you guys recommend? 15:07:49 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-69-13.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:07:55 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-unqcxnsmoowxscjt] has joined #lisp 15:08:00 reading on lisp now, it have some interesting concepts about functional programming 15:08:05 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 15:08:09 well, will ask on the mailinglist. thanks! 15:08:11 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-69-13.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-ytavpuudlintbrim] has joined #lisp 15:08:40 plaul0: "Paradigms Of Artificial Intelligence Programing" is nice too. 15:08:42 paul0: well, PCL is a good book. Opinions differ for Land of Lisp ... 15:08:56 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:22 "Let over Lambda" is for macro-lovers. 15:09:36 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-60-84.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:56 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:10:07 paul0: i like "on lisp" and "the art of the metaobject protocol" 15:10:10 paul0: I've just started "ANSI Common Lisp" and I'm liking it so far 15:10:14 started to read land of lisp, but god pretty complicated at the time 15:10:15 by Paul Graham 15:10:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:10:33 had the feeling that was a lot of concepts behind the code that I wasn't getting 15:10:47 paul0: definitely PCL 15:10:57 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 15:11:42 PCL is awesome too, but stop reading on the spam filter chapter, I'll try again soon, did an course about statistics in Udacity that gave me some knowledge to go on 15:12:58 urandom__ [~user@p54B0E772.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:14 On Lisp goes deep in math and computer science in further chapters? 15:13:23 bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:50 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@94.137.36.107] has joined #lisp 15:13:58 H4ns: I'll look at the art of metaobject protocol later, thanks 15:15:34 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.113.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:34 -!- hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 15:16:49 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:17:23 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-unqcxnsmoowxscjt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:17:46 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:04 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:20:29 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.88] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:29 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.88] has joined #lisp 15:23:00 just testing now: "ps::(ps .....)" 15:23:06 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:13 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:06 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:42 -!- mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-52-83-154.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:27:34 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:27:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:27:53 Goodbye everybody. Have a nice day! 15:28:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:28:22 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.36.107] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:28:48 paul0: the art of the metaobject protocol is less a book teaching programming lisp and more on the concepts of object orientation 15:29:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:31:34 spacefrogg: I see, I'll try to focus on learning lisp programming :) 15:33:51 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-145-2.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:34:08 -!- Gurragchaa is now known as Swampert 15:34:25 paul0: if you're starting out with lisp and have some prior programming experience the PCL is highly recommended 15:34:47 madnificent: I agree 15:34:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:34:56 I agree too 15:35:17 thanks! On Lisp is too advanced? 15:35:20 plus it's free, which is convenient, although I bought the paper version 15:35:22 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 15:35:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:36:10 paul0: I am trying out ANSI Common Lisp by Graham as a book to read after PCL, and it's looking promising. Learning more stuff! 15:36:25 great 15:36:56 offtopic, are you watching the redbull stratos? A guy will jump from edge of space, in freefall 15:37:14 looks like they are starting now 15:37:30 paul0: I am trying to learn lisp inspired by all Paul Graham's essays about greatness 15:37:45 mstevens: haha, quite same situation here :) 15:37:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.135.199.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:38:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:38:25 paul0: I am probably in the same position as you, I read PCL and wrote about 20 lines of code 15:38:30 paul0: i'm not watching it, it's not related to lisp :) On Lisp has an aversion to CLOS which is likely incorrect. i don't think it always teaches good style. 15:38:47 paul0: I am trying to learn furhter things 15:40:07 madnificent: I see, but it seems to have some interesting things about continuation programming, got interested because weblocks 15:40:47 paul0: i'd argue that to be more advanced, but yes, it does. 15:40:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] 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joined #lisp 18:20:46 christoph_debian [~user@2001:a60:f01c:0:42::1] has joined #lisp 18:21:23 guess noone ever actually tried cl-irc on abcl apart from getting it to compile .. http://pbot.rmdir.de/25c6495a8871903d10377a926f948671 18:22:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 does lisp allow unicode input :) lambda etc.. 18:24:07 doomlord: implementations do. 18:24:45 doomlord: the standard doesn't require it, but it does allow it. many modern implemenations allow unicode input 18:24:53 maybe there are more useable brackets too (chevrons?) keeping with the perens style. 18:25:10 doomlord: what are you saying? 18:25:13 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-250-33.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:26:15 like clojure adds [array] {map} .. << >> could mean something else 18:26:39 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 18:27:00 doomlord: yes, that would be a great idea to ruin the clean language! you can, just like you can shoot your neighbour. please don't. 18:27:37 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 18:27:48 symetrical symbols :) 18:27:58 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:58 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:413e:8b24:5431:a0d5] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:31:15 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 18:31:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:34:41 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:37:13 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:38:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:39:53 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 18:40:31 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:41:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:42:21 xaxisx_ 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m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.83] has joined #lisp 18:56:00 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 18:56:22 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 18:57:17 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:59:38 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:01:03 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:02:13 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.61] has joined #lisp 19:02:38 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09768c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:02:47 dRbiG [~p@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 19:02:59 Anyone know how can I switch endianness when using serial? 19:03:57 My system is little-endian, but userial serializes in big-endian 19:05:35 Kenjin: if you only send bytes, there is no issue. 19:07:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:08:31 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-063-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:10:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:11:02 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:09 pkhuong: I know, but I need to serialize 2bit fields 19:11:12 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.27] has joined #lisp 19:11:15 2byte 19:12:21 split them in little-endian bytes yourself. The same advice applies in any language. 19:13:33 pkhuong: That's what I thought. But was hoping I could use userial serialize* macro 19:14:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:15:19 Ah, perhaps. Nothing built-in CL for you, though (well, LDB makes things easier). 19:16:52 ironclad:integer-to-octets integer :big-endian nil works 19:16:52 Kenjin, wait! 19:16:56 ! 19:16:58 There is nibbles 19:17:07 a library that should handle those issues for you 19:17:16 I've heard of nibbles before 19:17:49 basically, the author of ironclad factored this part out of ironclad. 19:17:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:18:03 sweet 19:18:48 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-025-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:12 write-ub16/le nice 19:23:37 LiamH [~healy@12.133.56.98] has joined #lisp 19:24:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:25:43 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:55 -!- bitonic [~user@host81-149-175-55.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:27:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:32:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:59 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-218-185.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:18 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.91.238.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:34:57 -!- christoph_debian [~user@2001:a60:f01c:0:42::1] has left #lisp 19:35:29 xan_ [~xan@c-66-31-18-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:45 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@c-66-31-18-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:41:43 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 19:42:45 -!- LiamH [~healy@12.133.56.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:42 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 19:44:04 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:11 Daisy [Marken@95.209.77.92.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 19:44:37 -!- chturne [~chturne@78-105-198-180.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:44:52 -!- Yuuhi```` is now known as Yuuhi 19:47:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:47:52 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:47:54 LiamH [~healy@12.133.56.98] has joined #lisp 19:48:42 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 19:49:31 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:49:39 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:53:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:54:25 -!- LiamH [~healy@12.133.56.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:56:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:57:03 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:30 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:58:02 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 19:58:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:42 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:59:04 ThomasH: !!! 19:59:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:59:43 ThomasH: How recently did lisp-unit:run-tests accept 0 arguments? 20:01:28 i see the answer is something like "very recently" 20:02:15 it broke a lot of stuff 20:02:28 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:04:07 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 20:04:55 Xach: That was a change this weekend. I finally got around to cleaning out the internals and improving the reporting facilities. 20:05:18 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:41 Xach: Tell me what it broke and I can work with the people using it. It simply needs to be changed to lisp-unit:run-tests :all 20:06:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:06:52 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:19 parseltongue, lisp-executable, hh-redblack, group-by, dlist, collectors, clsql, cl-inflector, and cl-base32. 20:08:41 *ThomasH* is taking notes 20:08:52 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-025-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:09:38 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 20:10:40 any chance of being backwards-compatible? 20:10:41 -!- X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:06 Yes, that is possible. 20:12:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-217-100-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:12:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:12:51 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 20:16:08 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 20:16:13 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:17:38 Xach: Is there any chance that you can give me a chance to get these dists to update? 20:18:34 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:20:49 airolson [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 -!- airolson [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:21:32 -!- faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: faust45] 20:22:39 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:33 sure 20:23:41 let us check in on sunday 20:23:57 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:21 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:26:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:27:51 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:10 honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:13 ThomasH: any chance of restoring compatibility today instead and then contacting them before the november release? 20:28:24 *Xach* really wants to do a release earlier this week if possible 20:30:07 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:30:50 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.61] has joined #lisp 20:32:02 -!- SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:32:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:32:40 If I was smarter I would already have a system to revert to last week's lisp-unit and carry on 20:32:43 alas! 20:33:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:33:27 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.82] has joined #lisp 20:33:41 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:56 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:05 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-218-185.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:39:22 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:36 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:33 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:42:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:55 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:45:16 daniel1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 20:45:35 Xach: I'll kick out 0.8.1 and shoot for the interface change with 0.9.0. 20:47:08 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:50:15 tusen tack 20:51:02 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:27 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:51:31 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1 20:52:10 daniel1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 20:52:16 -!- ANDRES1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:53:16 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 20:54:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:54:44 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1 20:55:01 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:55:54 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:30 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 20:59:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:59:32 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:26 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.76.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:02:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:03:12 Xach: Pull the lisp-unit master and see if that fixes things. 21:04:36 SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:36 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:44 -!- SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:31 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:50 -!- ANDRES1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:06:06 daniel1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 21:08:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:08:45 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-206-180.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:45 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1 21:09:47 faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:34 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:12:10 SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:20 -!- blbef [~chatzilla@089144206080.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:19 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:13:27 -!- ANDRES1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:44 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-81-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:46 daniel1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 21:14:15 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:15:15 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:16:14 -!- faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: faust45] 21:18:04 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1 21:18:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:45 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:20:39 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:21:49 Xach: Did you try it? Does that get out your release? 21:22:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e695.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:54 is there a tool that will automatically create cffi grovel files for me from, say, openssl ? 21:23:00 faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:01 sabalaba [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:13 like cffi-grovel-grovel? (-; 21:25:36 does it actually exist? 21:26:47 no ): 21:27:04 but, you would just take cl+ssl 21:27:05 still, the metaness seems pretty funny 21:27:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:27:51 stassats, cl+ssl doesn't interface to digest, crypto functions 21:28:14 stassats: cl+ssl is missing a lot 21:28:33 including important modern-day SSL functionality 21:28:33 well, just wait until somebody adds it then 21:28:40 shifty [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 antifuchs, the idea is that you don't want to depend on your meta-groveler in what you distribute 21:28:48 I had a patch sent to me by someone 21:29:08 p_l: are you maintaining cl+ssl ? 21:29:18 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:29:49 Fare: nope. it was a small fix shown to me from someone's code base needed to pass domain name (not just socket) to cl+ssl so it could do matching of certificates properly 21:29:56 I'm ready to add the functionality we use to cl+ssl (RSA, SHA, etc) 21:32:14 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:32:20 hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD6EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:42 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:52 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:09 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 21:35:35 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.83] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]] 21:36:38 while you're at it, add an option to disable compression (: 21:38:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:40 vlion [~vlion@66-87-68-233.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:08 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:43:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:21 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 21:44:12 antifuchs: because of the recent attack ? 21:44:28 CRIME is not just a gread idea, it's the law 21:44:55 prefix guessing on encrypted compressed streams is pretty neat (: 21:44:58 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 21:45:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot iLogical lggr vlion hagish shifty sabalaba faust45 ignas ANDRES1 gigamonkey SHUPFS deadghost fisxoj arrsim` Fullmoon slyrus_ mathrick_ honkfestival huangjs Vutral killerboy Daisy gravicappa dRbiG Bike Forty-3 ivan\ ltbarcly piko lcc Kenjin mishoo wchun puchacz dr_octopus Harag stassats AntiSpamMeta stat_vi kanru gffa Houl ferada booguie homie foo303 kennyd MoALTz lusory otwieracz lemoinem wbooze kenanb sykopomp kpreid bobbysmith007 urandom__ 21:45:18 -!- names: fantazo catmtking ThomasH Nisstyre basho Fare Vivitron theos cnl jdz cmatei d3vnu11 Mon_Ouie add^_ Zemyla dmiles_afk eilyx JPeterson BrianRice quazimodo wccoder cornihil` keltvek peterhil ecraven user123abc kleppari_ sellout42 kirin` Jasko limetree hlavaty The_third_man benny nlpplz Demosthenes rvchangue arrsim Yuuhi scharan tali713 sawjig rvirding Nshag bjorkintosh ered robot-beethoven ASau paul0 nowhereman cyphase superflit loke snorble_ Kvaks 21:45:18 -!- names: billstclair specbot RJ3000_ ski hswe guaqua Swampert doomlord em p_l [SLB] Euthy aoh mcsontos cmm pchrist spacefrogg^ jjkola_work CampinSam Buglouse pavelpenev clop s0ber hugod abeaumont setheus findiggle2 sbryant SeanTAllen dotemacs NimeshNeema Quadrescence Patzy newcup getoffmalawn __class__ Ologn Oddity Posterdati felipe felideon jeekl astopholos_ tvaalen_ MikeSeth Yamazaki-kun daimrod tomaw fe[nl]ix dys cmbntr_ guther_ Praise yan_ ace4016 minion trigen 21:45:18 -!- names: ramus dkasak flip214 arnsholt theBlackDragon rotty vsync gf3 oGMo gemelen_ tdmackey_ nitro_idiot_ derekv jasom vert2 sabra asciilifeform prip SHODAN |3b| herbieB macrobat jrockway tychoish nicdev zort- jakk Codynyx rtoym ivan srcerer j_king Obfuscate varjagg cryptic aajmakin eli gabot oubiwann joast zbigniew sshirokov ft antoszka galdor schoppenhauer naryl sytse zmyrgel mikaelj CrazyEddy cataska Yahovah_ cYmen joshe aerique _schulte_ Netfeed gensym 21:45:18 -!- names: sepisult1um hohum_ ianmcorvidae guyal ZombieChicken Khisanth Ralith dan64 impulse faheem Mandus brendyn sweet_kid hpd antifuchs Tristam aegray vhost- Xach H4ns peccu cross_ fmu eMBee CoverSlide gilez mdh freiksenet strobegen rdd konaya puddingpimp pok smithzv lide adx renard_ ezakimak nullman quasisane blitz_` slyrus Tordek stokachu yroeht wormphlegm maxm dlowe ans clog Guest61276 dfox Derk araujo rking PuffTheMagic BlastHardcheese cic_ oconnore gmdjm1959 21:45:18 -!- names: barik Krystof postfuturist TristamWrk Viaken fihi09 tessier hiredman derrida howeyc redline6561 DrForr xaxisx BeLucid madnificent ArmyOfBruce Subfusc cods djinni` theconartist boyscared les karswell_ pkhuong robonyankitty yeltzooo dsp_ egn easye df_ literal rfgpfeiffer slava_ mtd Borbus kyl foom cpt_nemo adeht acieroid reb sigjuice froggey Fade dim ``Erik __main__ Amadiro samebchase Adeon surrounder rabite jsnell elliottcable drdo scode housel pinterface 21:45:18 -!- names: z0d reactormonk phadthai ineiros_ nuba arbscht pareidol1a nightfly_ jaaso mal__ tkd ozzloy johs jaxtr fasta jayne terjesb qsun xristos _root_ finnrobi copec 21:46:34 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:45 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:50:40 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-246.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:51:05 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-22-16.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:52:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:54:07 I'd forgotten about the awesomeness of setf functions... 21:55:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:56:02 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 21:56:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 21:56:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-032-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:09 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58:15 Xach: Don't bother testing that change, it's not just lisp-unit:run-tests, it's also lisp-unit:run-all-tests 21:58:53 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-246.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:00:34 -!- ANDRES1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 22:01:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:03:55 brandonz [~brandon@74-92-20-177-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:51 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 22:06:21 lars-_ [~lars@95.168.125.233] has joined #lisp 22:06:52 ThomasH, can't you make the api change backwards-copmtaible? 22:07:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:07:53 hi. I was wondering why is common qt using this weird reader macro hackery instead of wrapping api in lisp classes and functions? 22:08:38 lars-_: too much work, and maps to Qt API better 22:08:58 CLOS, even with MOP, fits Qt object model like a fist fits nose 22:09:06 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:24 Why is that? 22:10:05 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AF19.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:10:29 Fare: I'm putting the old API back in place for now, but it needs to be cleaned up. I'll update the README to explain my motivations. 22:10:35 API discoverability would be IMHO much worse. Smoke, which is actually what commonqt exposes (with some Qt-specific extras), is generic package for accessing C++/Qt. Making a proper lispy API would mean basically writing a new one, IMHO 22:11:22 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:11:30 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:11:51 ThomasH, the cleanup could be (1) functions with new names (or package), (2) stubs with the old name that will disappear after some time 22:13:12 cl-smoke wrappes everything in clos and methods. Too bad it is unportable and no longer supported 22:13:52 lars-_: I was thinking of making a CLOS-like interface, but it wouldn't exactly be Qt, more like a GUI library that happens to use Qt 22:14:06 Fare: It's more an issue of run-tests should be a function, not a macro, and run-all-tests and remove-all-tests are redundant. So, if it weren't for the run-tests macro -vs- function issue, I would have used your 2 step approach. 22:14:41 p_l autogenerated or written manually? 22:14:56 I still don't see why it's a hurdle to this 2-step solution 22:15:08 I really miss slime completion, argument hints, etc. Would be very handy with extensive library like Qt 22:15:10 make the macro wrap around the new function 22:15:12 lars-_: written manually 22:15:20 lars-_: also, you can try extending slime 22:15:47 Fare: I'll explain in the README later tonight. I really need to get the old API up and take care of dinner. 22:15:55 ok 22:16:01 i was thinking of autogenerating all the functions and classes on top of common qt 22:16:24 what do you use for such autogeneration? 22:16:54 you could have autocompletion hints and what-not without autogenerating anything 22:17:05 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:17:41 I was thinking i could use qt::qapropos map-methods/classes etc 22:17:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:18:51 stassats: But i would still miss proper lisp wrapper in many cases. I cant even write a method that dispatches on Qt class 22:18:55 -!- dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:18:57 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-018-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:54 i'm not sure how you measure "properness" 22:20:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:22:38 -!- hagish [~hagish@p5DCBD6EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:06 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 ISF [~ivan@187.64.220.85] has joined #lisp 22:25:06 Real lisp wrapper functions and classes instead of reader macro hackery 22:25:47 -!- faust45 [~faust45@2-180-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: faust45] 22:26:09 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:09 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 22:26:20 cl-smoke looks so sexy, shame it is no longer supported. http://tobias.rautenkranz.ch/lisp/cl-smoke/manual/manual.html#usage 22:27:02 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:27:03 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:27:24 so, you want huge images, slow times to compile, just to not use reader macros? 22:28:21 and how would you deal with c++ methods having different number of arguments, i don't know 22:28:37 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:29:05 Yes I would happily trade bigger image and slower compile time to get all the benefits 22:29:07 well, of course, there's &rest, but now your slime hints are gone 22:29:46 lars-_: well, i see no benefits so far 22:30:04 ThomasH: looks good 22:30:09 stassats: i tricked the slime hints for sexml because i wanted &key and &rest, so it's possible. 22:30:15 Really, no benefits at all? 22:30:15 *Xach* rebuilds everything 22:30:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:31:08 And function overloading could be handled with keyword arguments for all the non-required ones. 22:31:20 madnificent: what is possible? 22:31:34 Xach: Ok, I looked through the failed dists and it required run-tests, run-all-tests, remove-all-tests. That should cover this release. I'm going to write up the changes and push for them in version 0.9.0. 22:31:46 stassats: providing different slime hints, when you only specify an &rest parameter. 22:31:54 and then you would lose run-time caching for methods, which means slow, unless you also bundle a ton of compiler-macros or just use macros 22:32:07 ThomasH: ok 22:32:11 *ThomasH* leaves to take care of dinner, for real this time. 22:33:08 madnificent: well, you can make slime provide any information you want, without auto-generating functions, which is what i said from the very beginning 22:34:17 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:34:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-92-20-177-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:42 stassats: the statement stays the same, it is possible. i never had any doubt you knew this, you helped me do it, but the comment seemed in place. 22:34:49 either case, i'm off too. 'night 22:34:58 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:35:40 stassats: penalty for finding smoke function? Meh, so what 22:35:50 Benefits would be huge 22:36:12 not really. Not due to how everything works in this case. And the fact that you might deal with dynamically-loaded symbols 22:36:14 no, for computing the right c++ methods 22:36:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:25 (because you load them from smoke at runtime) 22:36:29 lars-_: you haven't stated so far a single benefit 22:37:25 stassats: You are wrong, I have states at least two. And you should kniw the benefits yourself unless you are new to lisp 22:37:31 *lars-_* stated 22:37:50 lars-_: the thing is, you can add the necessary bits to slime... dynamically, even) 22:38:52 lars-_: and which are that? 22:39:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:41:09 SLIME argument hints, SLIME completion, source look up. ability to override Qt methods. Ability to dispatch on Qt classes. no ugly #_ prefix poluting the source code 22:42:37 lars-_: we can override Qt methods (hell, it's even done through CLOS/MOP). Source code lookup is pretty useless when it just drops you into foreign call skeleton (i.e. what the #_ macro makes). Slime can be persuaded to complete #_, not sure how far the metadata from smoke comes for the argument hints 22:42:55 you can do those without functions, source look up won't work anyhow because you don't have static analyses, and you can override methods, you just need to wrap a class first 22:43:55 and #_ is a non-reason 22:44:00 yes i need to wrap it first, because you *can't* dispatch on qt classes 22:44:19 it is ugly and cluttering 22:44:36 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:51 subjective and insubstantial 22:45:10 well, overriding methods for classes which don't belong to you is a bad idea in any case 22:46:18 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:47:12 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 22:47:20 #_ is a clutter, it's a fact. you may not mind it, but it's still a clutter that wouldn't exist with proper lisp bindings 22:48:04 it's not a reason to complicate and worsen things 22:48:31 we still have slime hints (saying you can write support for it yourself doesnt cancel this benefit). Likewise for completion 22:48:57 As well as ability to dispatch on built in classes 22:49:28 have you actually used commonqt? 22:49:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:50:11 I think ugly macro approach complicates and worsens things. Would you like zoto have a different reader macro hack for every lisp bindings for some extensive foreign library? 22:50:33 Or would you prefer real bindings? 22:51:01 lars-_: I think the problem is that making proper bindings in this case is pretty problematic 22:51:19 yes, vapourware is hard to beat. 22:51:25 Now, if you built a proper C++ binding generator, it could work fine 22:52:31 then the compiler would actually know properly what it was dealing with 22:52:37 i actually am a current maintainer of commonqt, so i'm aware of how it works, and #_ is the best and simplest compromise 22:52:52 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-81-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:12 it's also why I'm not caring about redoing #_, just making a GUI lib on top of Qt, for the few ideas I have for it 22:53:26 and if done right, I might just be able to make it portable to WPF too 22:53:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-81-5.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:35 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 22:54:19 p_l what would be problematic? Function overloading could be handled with keyword arguments for all the optional arguments. It would make api nicer to use than in C++ 22:55:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:59:18 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:33 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:00:09 vince- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 23:00:48 hey. are quicklisp errors resolved? last time i upgraded i got a bunch of asdf-related errors when loading some popular systems 23:01:00 vince-: they are not usually resolved unless reported 23:01:10 vince-: I haven't heard about any general asdf-related errors from anyone 23:01:18 What happened? 23:01:32 Oh, I take that back. There's a big fare-utils issue. 23:01:42 yes that one 23:01:44 That should be resolved within the next few days. 23:02:00 *Xach* had blocked the unpleasant memory from his mind 23:02:18 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:38 :). ok good to hear 23:03:07 i knew quicklisp wasn't stable enough to transition! saved me again! 23:05:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:25 lichtblau: are you here? 23:05:36 -!- findiggle2 [~kirkwood@67.40.30.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:07:17 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:09:11 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:11:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:29 stassats: if you read cll you'd learn it's also a conspiracy to create a bunch of drooling consumers/slaves 23:12:24 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:14:36 Xach: whut 23:14:59 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:59 Xach: yeah, turns people into mindless code-writers, what happened to good old vcs repository hunting, and alive-server-finding?! 23:15:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:16:09 *p_l* finds it sad statement about cll that he can easily believe claims about such discussions 23:18:14 -!- dr_octopus [~topobot@77.209.225.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:23 lichtblau: so, if I add crypto functions to cl+ssl, what should I export or not export? 23:18:37 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:18:39 what about prefixes or whatelse for function and structure names? 23:19:29 should I create a separate package for crypto? 23:19:37 or same package cl+ssl ? 23:25:12 how do functions check if they got a symbol they expected? if you passed a wrong keyword for example you would get "option was not one of '(:something :something-else). i think there's an assert-like function? 23:25:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:27:11 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:27:29 vince-: there are a lot of options. assert is one, check-type is another, doing something manual and calling ERROR or related functions is another 23:27:39 vince-: defining your own conditions can help with how things are reported 23:27:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:28:16 I think vince is asking about how the keyword argument parser works, not conditions 23:29:19 no i was actually talking about conditions. check-type seems to be what I was looking for. cheers 23:29:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:29:48 oh, ok. 23:30:39 i phrased it in a weird way, bringing up keywords 23:31:21 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 23:33:07 deftype could be useful too 23:34:05 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:34:52 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:35:01 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 23:35:02 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:35:11 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-68-233.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:35:53 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-250-33.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 23:37:31 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:38:57 marcux [~marco@177.32.185.235] has joined #lisp 23:40:25 (deftype positive-int () '(and integer (satisfies plusp))) (let ((x -1)) (check-type x positive-int)) :-> "Value -1 is not of the expected type POSITIVE-INT" 23:41:05 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:14 if you defined it as '(integer (0)) instead the rest of the system might actually be able to use it 23:41:39 rest of the system being? 23:41:40 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:41:41 especially given that the order in which satisfies types are tested isn't defined. 23:41:52 type inference and so on 23:42:08 pkhuong: what if you explicitly declare type? 23:42:10 so that if you (declare (type positive-int whatever)) the compiler will actually do something with that information 23:42:52 hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 p_l: huh? the bug here is that the AND type could be checked by first calling plusp and only then testing for integrality. 23:43:08 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:45 really, and isn't specified to work like the macro? 23:44:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:17 so it isn't. guess it does make sense... 23:44:31 I hope deftype isnt as braindamaged as pkhuong suggests. 23:45:05 it's not deftype, it's the and specifier. it's just defined as the intersection of the types, it doesn't mean "they have to be tested left to right" or anything. 23:45:23 It should have meant that 23:45:48 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:48 pkhuong: ah 23:46:20 types are just sets, they're not a procedure for inclusion in a set. 23:46:36 lars-_: really? so you want "(and (satisfies plusp) integer)" to call plusp even when it can be proven that the object whose type is being checked is a float? 23:47:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:47:39 pkhuong: yes I do. Order it better if you want to micro optimize 23:48:24 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:49:22 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@27.Red-79-152-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:49:30 and/or if you want to avoid errors 23:50:54 I would be more inclined to listen if you could show me when you last worked in an implementation of CL's type system. 23:51:22 hm, is (satisfies plusp) even a well-defined type, since it doesn't return a boolean for all objects? (I realize the question is pretty academic) 23:51:26 -!- Posterdati [~quassel@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:29 Appeal to authority 23:52:06 lars-_: ah, fallacy fallacy. 23:52:30 *p_l* would be happy with (integer (satisfies plusp)) 23:52:38 a bit easier to handle, IMHO 23:53:36 Posterdati [~quassel@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:53:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:53:50 p_l: that's harder to convert to a useful canonical representation that supports intersections and unions. 23:54:48 mhr__ [60fd75c2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.253.117.194] has joined #lisp 23:55:03 I tried (setq square (lambda (n) (* n n))) on ideone.com for common lisp, and saying (print (square 5)) is a runtime error, but saying (print square) prints that it's a function. What gives? 23:55:52 mhr__: you have to use funcall or apply to call or apply function objects 23:56:05 lars-_: in the meantime, consider that CL builds on the experience of many brilliant programmers who developed and used Lisp systems during a long period. If something seems obviously stupid, you might be missing something. 23:56:33 oy, okay, that makes sense 23:56:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:57:06 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:57:25 mhr__: (foo ...) can be used if FOO is a global or local name for a function. it doesn't go by variable names. 23:57:37 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:58:09 why not? 23:58:31 if a variable is assigned to a function, wouldn't it make sense? 23:58:32 pkhuong: CL was competing with C back in the day, and C standard is riddled with undefined and unspecified behavior to allow better optimization. It is unfortunate a nice high level language likr CL went that route in cases like this 23:58:35 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:59:08 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:19 that's not the cause of your complaint. the order is unspecified because and is an intersection of sets, and types aren't something with execution orders.