00:02:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:03:12 I think there is a CL on JVM 00:03:54 I'm trying to do a hotcode swap in slime but for some reason it waits till the program has exited. I can change global variables but nothing that requires a compile. My swank:*communication-style* is currently at :spawn, shouldn't this work where should I look? 00:04:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 psykotron: what implementation/OS are you using? 00:07:11 I'm using SBCL on Ubuntu 12.04 currently. I've also tried using Clisp 00:07:35 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-147-190.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:08:14 -!- homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-152-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:19 The app is using sdl and it seemed like I was able to do this not too long ago without any manual settings. 00:08:45 how do you know that it waits until the main loop has returned? 00:09:07 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:09:13 It won't finish the compile of the function until I close the sdl window 00:09:53 Rakko: yes, there's. I'm considering whether the result might not be nicer and faster 00:10:29 I don't know what the SDL library you're using does, sorry. 00:10:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:11:22 Hmm. It might be related to SDL, maybe something specific to cffi. I can check more there. 00:11:52 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:12:10 karneisada [~hagbard@ip68-109-111-249.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:21 Now, if I pick some other gui related library, like gtk or qt, should I expect to be able to compile while the gui app is running? 00:13:41 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-147-190.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:13:42 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-147-190.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:14:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-128-245.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:14:56 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:15:44 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:24 psykotron can you try this? (defun foo () (print "foo") (sleep 1)) , type (loop (foo)) in the repl, and then try changing and recompiling foo while the loop is running 00:17:28 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 00:17:30 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 00:17:32 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:17:49 and yes you should be able to compile while the gui app is running 00:18:25 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-147-190.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:19:30 speaking of slime -- I don't know how many here are also in #emacs, but I asked there: 00:19:32 When using SLIME, sometimes I get errors immediately after reviving my Mac (I don't even have to type any Lisp or issue any keyboard commands to trigger it). Is this a known problem with a solution? 00:19:32 One such error I got shows up in *Messages* as `Evaluation aborted on # {132B41F9}>.` I wish I had copied the actual SLIME error window. 00:19:58 Rakko: I don't think I've ever had that 00:20:03 I'm also using SBCL (1.0.55), on a 32-bit Mac 00:20:12 with SLIME from a few days ago on Emacs 24 00:20:43 I'm guessing you had the point at a strange location (it often happens when clicking around), and hit C-x C-e or a similar combo. 00:20:44 masq: That's a negative. If I try to to run that from the repl I can't use the repl so I compiled it from a buffer. I then tried to change the function and do a recompile but it won't change the function. 00:21:25 psykotron: what version of SBCL? That should just work. 00:21:36 What version of SLIME, while we're at it? 00:21:38 psykotron odd. in here if I change (print "foo") to (print "bar") repl starts printing bar 00:21:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22:55 I'm using the defaults with ubuntu 12.04 right now. SBCL 1.0.55.0.debian and slime 1:20111027-2. 00:24:22 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:24:53 I have this in .swank file. not sure if it is needed. (setf swank:*communication-style* :spawn) 00:25:24 shouldn't be needed. But 2011-02-17 is very old. 00:27:52 masq: I think it's set to that by default but I tried it anyways with no change. 00:28:02 pkhuong: I'll try a new version via quicklisp 00:28:11 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:31:37 I have slime 2012-09-04 now but it hasn't change it. 00:31:54 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.216.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:04 and what happens if you try to use the official binary from sbcl.org? 00:33:28 how do I get my SLIME version from emacs? 00:33:44 I was thinking I had a development copy but now remember it's not 00:34:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:34:58 Rakko: scroll up in *inferior-lisp* 00:35:02 user123abc_ [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:09 cornihilio [~user@nfmv001165100.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:35:16 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:36:01 thanks 00:36:38 ok, mine is 2012-09-04 00:36:58 pkhuong: that fixed it! 00:38:25 psykotron: I believe there were a few bugfixes for interactions between SLIME and SBCL between .55 and now. 00:38:47 gotcha 00:38:54 Thanks 00:40:24 Just curious, is there a good way to kill off the background function running rather than using a ,restart in slime? 00:40:26 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:06 what background function? You can M-x slime-list-threads to get a list of currently-executing threads. 00:41:33 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-7-208-203.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:42:37 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.152.168] has joined #lisp 00:43:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:43:38 <|3b|> C-c C-c in repl or C-c C-b in lisp files to interrupt background threads 00:44:34 the slime-list-threads did the trick (I had the print foo running in the background) 00:44:52 |3b|: those seemed to just list the current active thread I think 00:46:25 <|3b|> hmm, should be bound to slime-interrupt 00:47:17 <|3b|> and should pop up debugger, from which you can hit q (or pick abort restart) to kill thread 00:47:41 -!- karneisada [~hagbard@ip68-109-111-249.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:47:55 |3b|: It lists the restarts and backtrace but I think it didn't list the background process because I launched it from a compile from the buffer instead of the repl directly... maybe? 00:48:56 <|3b|> dunno, usually does what i intended if i use it from same place i started the thread, not sure how smart it is otherwise 00:49:49 pkhuong: now my SDL app handles the recompiles fine. 00:49:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:49:54 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:21 psykotron: good stuff. Modifying running applications while preserving all the state really helps during development. 00:50:28 yay lisp 00:51:27 It's definitely one of the top reasons I've been learning it. That and the ease of modifying a function from another function. 00:52:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:54:00 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 00:54:18 <|3b|> downside is that then you want to redesign the application to be easier to modify while running :p 00:54:27 *|3b|* keeps getting stuck in that trap lately :( 00:55:08 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:53 For this app I'm exploring genetic programming so it's the primary requirement. That and it's only 300 lines or so currently. 00:56:33 ooh 00:56:59 I was thinking of GP the other day 00:57:27 is it possible to sandbox a lisp implementation so the algorithms themselves are in lisp? 00:57:39 Yeah, it's interesting stuff. I've been skimming through on of the Koza books. 00:57:49 LiamH [~healy@pool-108-7-208-203.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:17 Yeah, I have a pretty limiting sandbox going on. This versions only allowing a couple functions to be used. 00:59:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:16 cool 01:00:19 using what? 01:00:21 I guess it's more limited by the function generating and mutating the functions really, it's technically part of the same execution environment... so not much of a sandbox but it should stop it from crashing the program anyways 01:01:33 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:34 oh, ok 01:01:57 so the genetic programs are just bound to a restricted API 01:02:07 exactly 01:02:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:02:26 But I will probably need to create a real sandbox later so I can limit the cpu cycles and memory usage as well as what functions it could execute. 01:04:21 I do have a cost associated with different functions so that will limit cpu usage and I can probably just expand that a bit so that any memory usage has a cap and the function level. hard to say at this point, I'm just getting the basics figued out. 01:04:41 *at the function level 01:09:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:11:04 cool 01:12:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:13:59 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483B413.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:43 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839EC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:18:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:21:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:28:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:19 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 01:31:26 Greetings lispers 01:31:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:35:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:27 hi 01:37:32 kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:27 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:40:12 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb updates. /msg ow herro!] 01:40:26 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 01:41:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:42:25 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-108-7-208-203.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:43:58 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:44:04 -!- psykotron [~aria@67.166.148.128] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:47:55 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:48:41 hi tmh 01:50:29 p_l: It's "The lisper formerly known as tmh." 01:51:22 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 :) 01:57:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:00:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:00:38 I just ran into the issue with fsbv not being able to find ffi.h, trying to load it through Quicklisp. So, should I go into the Quicklisp directory and make the necessary manual modification or grab a git repo outside of Quicklisp and do the modification there? 02:00:42 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:02:38 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [] 02:02:51 grab teh repo, and put it before ql in search path 02:03:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:16 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 02:04:06 or grab the repo in local-projects. 02:05:45 Ok, modifying the code under dists/ql/software is not a good idea. Understood 02:07:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:14:58 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2C50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:16:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:18:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:23:05 Excellent. I've cleaned up lisp-unit internals to provide better reporting and it ran all the tests in GSLL correctly on the first try. 02:23:28 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:46 hello ! 02:23:59 Rather, it handled all tests correctly, there were some test failures, but nothing caused by the new reporting code. 02:24:46 Hey billitch 02:24:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:25:26 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:18 i think i have some trouble understanding dynamic-extent : i have (defmethod lessp ((a string) (b string)) (dynamic-extent a b) (string< a b)) 02:26:51 and sbcl gives me this note: could not stack allocate the result of (DEFMETHOD LESSP ((A STRING) (B STRING)) 02:27:28 if i understand correctly, the return value of string< is either T or NIL, how can it not be stack allocated ? 02:27:40 billitch: really? I'd expect an undefined function warning on dynamic-extent. 02:28:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:28:37 pkhuong: (defmethod lessp ((a string) (b string)) (declare (dynamic-extent a b)) (string< a b)) 02:28:39 (style warning, that is) 02:29:17 I have "; note: could not stack allocate A in: [defmethod]" 02:32:05 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:36:34 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 02:37:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:37:49 -!- doomlord [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:41:27 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:08 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:26 still i don't understand why it could not. does it try to stack allocate the whole strings ? 02:43:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.38.229] has joined #lisp 02:43:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.38.229] has quit [Changing host] 02:43:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:43:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:44:46 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:45:00 billitch: that's what your annotation means. Of course, that can't happen because the strings are allocated in callers or elsewhere. 02:47:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:47:24 * your declaration even. Seems I can't multitask tonight. 02:47:51 pkhuong: ok i think i understand. thanks ! 02:48:05 zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-70-124-171.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:56:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:59:40 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:02:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:03:09 -!- benny [~user@87.122.129.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:07:19 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-8-54.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:12:43 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:13:47 -!- d3vnu11 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[Quit: joekarma] 07:02:30 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:47 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:03:27 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:41 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.248] has joined #lisp 07:03:48 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:04:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:09:16 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 07:10:43 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:10:43 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:13:08 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 07:13:24 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 07:13:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:19:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-0.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:10 *|3b|* wonders how i managed to get 2 apparently same characters in emacs, only one of which can get sent through slime properly 07:20:18 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 07:20:25 mathrick_ [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has joined #lisp 07:21:30 <|3b|> (length "‰") => 1, (length "‰") => 4 07:22:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:22:14 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:25 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:22:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:22:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:23:02 <|3b|> ah, apparently one is encoded as utf8 in the buffer and other isn't 07:23:19 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-0-174.lns10.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:25:45 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb new features, finnaglings, and finprovements! 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08:34:04 agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:30 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:09 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 08:36:52 |3b|: my irssi (remote, in a utf8-enabled screen session, in utf8 locale on all sides, in urxvt) shows those characters differently (first as 2 glyphs, second as 1) 08:36:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:37:19 all this is hopeless :) 08:38:34 <|3b|> cmm: yeah, encodings are always fun 08:41:57 organixpear [~organixpe@96-42-14-128.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:33 Hello! are there methods for getting cl-fad to recognize something like ":resolve-symlinks nil"? 08:43:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:47 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 08:46:48 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the 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#lisp 12:36:33 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:12 I like that book 12:38:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:38:52 minion: tell mstevens about graham crackers 12:38:53 mstevens: look at graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 12:39:10 mpstyler: I hope to like the book. The theory is that it will make a good follow on from PCL 12:39:30 snearch [~snearch@92.225.77.136] has joined #lisp 12:41:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:43:59 bitonic [~user@dyn903-10.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:44:06 jbaker19 [~joshua@207.87.40.22] has joined #lisp 12:46:20 sykopomp: ta 12:47:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-0.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:49:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:56 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn903-10.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:10 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-147-190.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:50:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:50:19 bitonic [~user@dyn903-10.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:50:42 lggr 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peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:00 mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:18 -!- agumonke1 [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:36:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:37:29 jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-67-143-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 14:38:19 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 14:38:29 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:30 gua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 14:40:37 agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:37 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:04 -!- gua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:42:06 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:43:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:44:17 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 14:46:32 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.215.86] has joined #lisp 14:46:40 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:46:46 Greetings! 14:47:04 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:28 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn902-144.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 14:49:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.184] has quit [Changing host] 14:49:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:49:58 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:50:04 Is there any built-in function to do bitwise rotation or I need to write it by myself? I can't find such function in CLHS. 14:50:26 replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:51:29 hitecnologys: cl does not have numbers with a certain bit length, so you'll need to write a rotate function yourself. 14:51:41 hitecnologys: ash may be helpful for you. 14:52:59 hitecnologys: also logbitp, byte and ldb might help 14:53:28 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:32 Yeah, I thought about ASH + LDB, but how to combine resulting number with one bit? 14:54:09 hitecnologys: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node131.html#SECTION001670000000000000000 14:54:34 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55:26 homie [~homie@xdsl-78-35-180-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:58:17 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:18 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:07 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.128.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:59:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:00:40 fauzi [~fauzi@isdn-tsk-238-92.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 15:01:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:02:35 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.23] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 15:05:06 is there a way to respond to OPTION requests in hunchentoot and to send custom headers when the request is sent? i want to allow cross origin responses. 15:06:26 Oh, I'm idiot 15:07:01 -!- mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:07:07 Could I just convert number to string, then do rotation and convert it back again? 15:07:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:26 -!- snearch [~snearch@92.225.77.136] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:07:26 madnificent: OPTION is just a HTTP command verb like GET, so there is nothing that stops you from responding to such requests 15:07:41 hitecnologys: sure, but that sounds like a very ineffective way to go about 15:08:08 H4ns: i missed the relevant sections on weitz.de (and i looked a few times), could you point me to them, or is that outdated? 15:08:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:59 madnificent: there is no section on it. it should just work. 15:09:13 madnificent: is your handler not called when an OPTION request is sent? 15:09:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.23] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:09 -!- zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-70-124-171.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:11:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:11:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:39 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@c-71-228-218-8.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:12:46 Have any of you guys had problems with SLIME on the later builds for Emacs recently? 15:12:46 replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 15:13:12 In particular, when I do an expand, the cursor moves to a random location in the document while the candidae list is shown 15:13:27 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [] 15:13:32 tsuru` [~charlie@c-71-228-218-8.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:55 loke: same here. 15:14:07 daimrod: have you found a solution? 15:14:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.20] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 not yet 15:14:30 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:45 It happened somewhere around the release of 24.2 15:15:45 instead of fixing it, I've configured slime-ac. 15:15:53 what is slime-ac? 15:16:12 slime integration with auto-complete 15:16:47 what is auto-complete? :-) 15:17:05 super awesome is what iti s 15:17:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.184] has quit [Changing host] 15:17:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:17:13 link me 15:17:26 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:17:26 http://emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoComplete 15:18:01 it does pretty much the same thing but inside a popup instead of a window. 15:20:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:22:52 hswe [~hswe@san.space150.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:43 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 15:24:46 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:25:14 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.86] has joined #lisp 15:25:42 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:26:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28:34 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:29:05 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-225-043.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:30:28 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.120] has joined #lisp 15:30:35 Fuf, here is what I did: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132469 15:31:18 It works perfectly. 15:31:19 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:31:24 hitecnologys_: usually, bit rotation works for a fixed word length. do you want something else? 15:31:51 hitecnologys_: i.e. rotating 1 right yields #x80 for 8 bit word length or #x8000 for 16 bits. 15:32:04 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.215.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:32:04 -!- hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 15:32:36 H4ns: but mine variant works with any kind of integers. 15:33:23 Okay, thanks everybody. I need to go now. Good luck! 15:33:33 (...) 15:34:12 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:35:40 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.120] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:35:45 -!- paolo-m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36:10 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:35 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has left #lisp 15:37:53 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:38:38 Joreji [~thomas@94-117.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:44 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:43:52 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-206-180.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:00 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 -!- wws [wws@clozure-4F77776C.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:44:57 -!- wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:44:58 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:54 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 15:47:58 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@212-226-67-143-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:10 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.0.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:49:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:50:44 H4ns: sorry, got an incoming call. not too sure. however, i didn't find how to send custom headers either, so that would probably make me find it all quickly :) 15:51:13 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-206-180.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:52:54 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:52:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:52:56 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:53:03 Greetings lispers 15:53:22 'll ThomasH 15:53:43 Hey madnificent, do you work on GSLL a lot, or am I thinking of someone else? 15:54:14 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:54:20 the acronym GSLL doesn't tell me that much, so probably someone else 15:54:33 Heh, okay. 15:55:02 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.180] has joined #lisp 15:55:36 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:56:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:28 jjkola [~jjkola@193-64-23-200-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:58:10 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:17 how did you get ac-slime working? 15:58:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-117.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:01 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-147-190.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:59:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:02:29 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:02:29 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:33 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:41 bitonic [~user@dyn902-144.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-35-211.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:04:36 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:07:03 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:09:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:10:34 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.66] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:04 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:23 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn902-144.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:45 bitonic` [~user@dyn902-144.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:15:29 paul0 [~user@189.4.115.26] has joined #lisp 16:15:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:53 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:56 -!- RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:19:28 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:29 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 16:20:48 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:21:02 RJ3000_ [~uid1@109.231.228.146] has joined #lisp 16:21:07 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:03 what is it that makes functional-geometry try to load mcclim over and over, when it's not put to load before mcclim in a dotfile ? 16:25:37 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:27:41 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 16:27:49 Lowl3v3l [~lowl3v3l@p54B901BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:34 and when mcclim is already loaded! ? 16:28:59 is defsystem not working like asdf in that regard ? 16:29:21 that already loaded packages are not tracked for again and again ? 16:29:41 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:30:18 -!- Lowl3v3l [~lowl3v3l@p54B901BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 16:32:27 snearch [~snearch@g225077136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb updates and upgrades and whatnot. This quit message brought to you by the nick 'ow'. Say hi to him because he loves spam] 16:34:56 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 16:35:10 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 16:35:25 -!- fauzi [~fauzi@isdn-tsk-238-92.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:35:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/132470 very different results depending on the implementation: sbcl 79, ecl: 6 and clisp: 0 16:35:45 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225077136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:36:12 the question is why? 16:36:45 madnificent: (setf (hunchentoot:header-out :foo) "1234") 16:36:48 and the other question is, how to seed with the same *RANDOM-STATE* in different implementations? 16:37:47 francogrex: you'll have to use a portable prng so that the different implementations produce the same sequence. 16:38:23 ah, ok but then that's not the big deal; the big deal is sbcl seems to come up with the wrong results 16:39:06 I don't expect 79 significant results in randomly simulated data! ecl and even clisp are closer to what is expected 16:39:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:39:17 Thra11_ [~thrall@127.67.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:09 francogrex: Unless you are setting *read-default-float-format* to double-float, you have a number of precision mismatches. 16:40:26 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.113.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:41 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:03 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 ThomasH: I don't think that's the issue here. 16:43:34 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 16:43:39 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:45 it is set to double-float 16:44:04 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:04 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:04 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:14 francogrex: What you are trying to do is going to require attention to a lot of details and I was just pointing out an obvious one. 16:45:31 ok 16:45:33 Joreji [~thomas@94-117.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:07 mkcl-1.1.0 README (from mkcl-1.1.0.tar.gz ) blank ! :-( 16:47:03 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 francogrex: but did you set it for reader, or only declared the type? 16:48:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:49:00 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:03 p_l: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) 16:49:32 ah 16:50:40 *homie* gives fish-math to the artist* 16:50:43 lol 16:50:57 maybe I should start with non-simulated data and check the differences in results 16:51:23 francogrex: Definitely 16:51:32 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-206-180.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:03 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:11 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 16:54:13 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:12 H4ns: thanks! 16:56:11 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 16:58:02 No one implementation for x86-64 similar to Movitz (x86) ? - thanks - 16:58:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:58:48 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:27 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:59:28 aha! the problem (difference is from here): (loop repeat 100 collect (random 200))) 16:59:42 which is strange! 17:00:28 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:40 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01:03 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-243-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:01:36 very strange the first random numbers generated by SBCL yield errors 17:01:46 sorry I meant erroneous results 17:02:06 I outputs 79 false positives! 17:02:49 how can that be, the first seed is corrupt? 17:03:09 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:04:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:05:12 Kvaks [~quassel@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:05:59 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:13 Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.186.194] has joined #lisp 17:07:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:08:14 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@127.67.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:08:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-117.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:14 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:17 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:08 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-032-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:48 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.186.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:11:52 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:02 Thra11 [~thrall@198.248.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:15:40 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: brb] 17:16:29 snorble_ [~snorble@213.101.209.229] has joined #lisp 17:17:23 Does anyone know how to create a keybinding in emacs and slime that is only active for slime buffers? I can't seem to find the relevante keymap or am doing something else wrong 17:17:38 (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "C-") 'slime-restart-inferior-lisp) 17:17:52 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:18:18 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@198.248.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:59 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 17:20:36 replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:47 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:24:03 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 17:24:16 sepisult1um: not exactly an answer to your question, but ,restart works in slime 17:25:13 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:25:15 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:45 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-146-31.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:27:22 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:27:23 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-146-31.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:28:20 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:28:21 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:29:09 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:29:13 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:33:36 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33:39 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 17:33:43 can I make a spoecific *random-state* that I can initiate always as the same? 17:34:09 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.157.153] has joined #lisp 17:34:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:35:15 smallfoot- [~moo@unaffiliated/smallfoot-] has joined #lisp 17:35:21 (()) lisp looks like vagina (()) 17:35:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:28 (()) why does lisp look like vagina?? (()) 17:36:04 smallfoot-: Because you've never seen one. 17:36:15 francogrex: You can try printing out *random-state*. Depending on what gets printed, you may be able to save it, then read it back later into *random-state*. 17:36:16 francogrex: yeah, you can use make-random-state 17:36:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:37:04 oh snap 17:37:53 Bike: no. nonguest yes that's what I meant, will I be able to read a random state made by sbcl into clisp for example and then generating same random #s ? 17:38:12 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:38:28 I don't think the read format works across implementations. 17:38:54 then how about using serialization, like cl-store 17:39:08 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09768c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:09 and store the random state to be re-read by different implemantations 17:40:25 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zxyemnfrpegqwllr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:40:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:32 well I mean, the nature of the state is implementation-dependent. different implementations can use different prng algorithms. 17:41:09 daniel1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 17:41:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:41:30 hmm, that somehow sucks but it's understandable and logical 17:42:18 unless, I think I have a certain lib of mersenne twister, that I can use 17:42:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.184] has joined #lisp 17:42:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.184] has quit [Changing host] 17:42:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:42:21 I think there are libraries for using the same generator across implementations. 17:42:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:42:42 yeah, like MT19937. 17:42:44 Bike: I have one in c that I use by cffi, that maybe the solution 17:42:44 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1 17:43:11 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.157.153] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:12 http://www.cliki.net/MT19937 17:43:18 it's priobably just that, now am I in the mood to look through mly archives, that's another story 17:43:39 Thra11 [~thrall@62.61.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-217-100-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:43:51 Bike: thanks saved me time 17:44:04 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.227.211.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:44:19 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:32 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@c-71-228-218-8.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:44:54 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:02 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:45:10 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:45:30 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:45:39 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 17:45:45 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:46:22 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:47:56 -!- ANDRES1 [~ANDRES1@201.209.38.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:33 Daisy [Eile@95.209.92.19.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 17:51:47 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:30 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:42 mrg32k3a should only be a couple LOC. 17:55:42 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:56:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] 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timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:08 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-196-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:10:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:10:22 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 -!- _tca is now known as theconartist 19:16:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:17:03 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:14 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-agalakpyjypulsra] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 ahem. Is there a library that does low-level crypto (digest, encrypt & decrypt buffers) by binding to openssl or such? 19:18:33 cl+ssl looks like it only does stream bindings. 19:18:34 gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-pyxulpohctafzskh] has joined #lisp 19:19:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:23:19 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/] 19:23:50 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-190-243.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:35 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 19:25:12 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:41 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.66] has joined #lisp 19:25:59 -!- gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-pyxulpohctafzskh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:27:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:29:17 francogrex [~user@109.130.161.136] has joined #lisp 19:29:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:29:56 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:30:12 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:32:08 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-190-243.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:09 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-024-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:56 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:37:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.161.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:39:19 jewel [~jewel@196-215-65-136.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:39:23 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 19:39:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:49 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 19:44:39 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:47:40 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-218-185.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:49:48 Fare: not AFAIK 19:52:31 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 19:55:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:58:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:59:08 hi 19:59:22 for some basic 2D visual playing, what lib would you recommend? 19:59:29 opticl 19:59:32 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-039-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:00:16 that being said if you don't have much ram it might start to gum things up 20:01:04 it doesn't seem to handle the actual drawing on screen? 20:01:04 another I've used and liked is imago 20:01:15 no, it draws to files 20:01:23 -!- 15SAADA6Y [~water@71-212-35-113.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:01:32 maybe to the screen through xwindows 20:02:28 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:03:10 dim: SDL can render to the screen in a couple LOC. 20:03:12 looks like cl-sdl is not maintained anymore.. that's what I'd probably recommend otherwise 20:03:46 (ql:system-apropos "sdl") reveals lispbuilder-sdl. 20:03:46 aha, http://www.cliki.net/lispbuilder-sdl 20:04:01 I want to see how involved it is to setup things to be able to hack a version of http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/chatnoir/chatnoir.swf 20:04:04 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:04:13 lispbuilder-sdl it is then 20:04:23 so that I have something handy and ready if my kids want to learn programming some day :) 20:04:29 awesome 20:05:02 might also consider http://hackety.com/ -- that's ruby though 20:05:13 Bike_ [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:31 I found ruby to be an effective gateway to lisp 20:05:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:05:37 see http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/#(part._.Functions_are_.Values), that's how easy I would like it to be :) 20:05:50 I don't want no gateway to lisp... 20:06:18 well if racket already has what you want, I don't see any harm in using it, if teaching kids is your aim 20:06:36 it's not like they need to know common lisp *right* away 20:06:37 well that means I have to learn scheme and racket :) 20:07:09 yes, but they're not too different IMO. I know others will disagree 20:07:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 (common lisp and scheme/racket that is) 20:07:53 scheme and racket are obviously essentially the same thing 20:08:30 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:08:52 joekarma: fsvo 'essntially' 20:09:02 essentially, even. 20:09:10 -!- paul0 [~user@189.4.115.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:17 yes, fsvo indeed 20:11:49 and that linked racket tutorial is beautiful. I remember being very impressed when I was giving PLT Scheme a spin 20:11:51 I just need to get to learn it 20:12:02 I guess I can have a SLIME like environement to play with racket? 20:12:19 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-62-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:12:35 not sure. if you're using a slime like environment you're letting go of the main benefit of the tutorial (embedded images) 20:13:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:13:43 common lisp + slime still trumps DrRacket for getting things done, IMO, but for learning purposes the racket environment is very cool 20:13:52 dim: use geiser (http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/geiser_2.html) to play with racket and slime. :) 20:13:55 oh, they are able to draw images only when using their own env? Then I could use LispWorks Personal Edition to the same effect, maybe? 20:14:10 If the initial-value of a constant variable is an instance of a class, the only thing constant is the binding of the symbol to that instance. The slots of the instance can be changed without error, right? 20:14:50 dim: only *inline* in their env, at least 20:14:58 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-65-136.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:15:44 and racket is different from scheme, right? 20:15:57 a slime+paredit environment built into the browser would be pretty cool I think 20:15:58 I mean by learning racket I would not move nearer to scheme? 20:16:14 problem is how much of emacs you'd have to implement to accomplish this 20:16:23 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:26 ThomasH: defconstant with a class instance is a bad idea; different functions could refer to different copies of the instance. 20:16:38 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f4b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:42 racket used to be called PLT Scheme. It's called racket now because they're adding a lot of unique (and awesome) features 20:16:52 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f4b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:58 but the more they add the less they can justify being called a scheme 20:17:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:17:29 rackets sort of like a "batteries included" scheme 20:18:46 pkhuong: Thanks. I didn't want to do that, I'm just trying to understand constants better. The only thing I have confidence initializing a constant with isliteral data. 20:19:34 http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Graphics.html#Graphics maybe 20:19:40 ThomasH: and that's the only thing the spec gives us confidence on: numbers, symbols and characters. 20:20:16 what do you mean by build into the browser joekarma ? 20:20:40 I mean a swank client (slime) implemented using HTML+CSS+JavaScript 20:20:44 http://slip.lisperator.net/ 20:20:53 -!- gf3_ is now known as gf3 20:20:56 thanks :) 20:21:12 no wait, not quite what I'm looking for 20:21:21 you mean for use with common lisp? 20:21:23 yep 20:21:47 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:22:02 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-217-100-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:22:06 basically just a way to send forms to swank and decide what to do with the result 20:22:12 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:22:13 use for things like embedded images and sounds 20:22:24 or what have you 20:23:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:24:10 say it receives back an instance of 'opticl:image, from the browser it would be trivial to render that inline 20:24:39 don't know how easy it is from emacs 20:25:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.161.136] has joined #lisp 20:25:54 I believe the first random sequence generated by sbcl is not very random! How would you test for that? 20:26:21 ehu: update today maybe 20:26:39 standard randomness tests? but your problem is that you're not seeding the generator, I imagine 20:26:44 runs test ? 20:26:46 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:54 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:27:09 no Bike_: I am using the default random state 20:27:10 great! I'm looking forward to it, because I'd like to learn how many systems we broke or fixed by now having CLOSER-MOP support (if it's already committed to the master) 20:27:12 You mean that it's generating the same sequence each time, right? 20:27:15 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:27:48 not that, sbcl starts with the same random-state each time, it's pok 20:27:50 ok 20:28:14 but I think that first random-state is generating non-random numbers 20:28:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness_tests Here's an introduction. 20:28:55 What makes you think they aren't random? 20:29:08 otherwise how could I explain 79 false positives on a first test 20:29:33 bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132470 can you test? 20:29:51 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:56 francogrex: "p happens" 20:29:58 francogrex: when something is wrong in your program, assume that your program is at fault. rarely is the compiler the cause. very rarely. 20:30:07 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.0.118] has joined #lisp 20:30:19 in this case it may very well be 20:30:23 is cl+ssl the right place to add libcrypto bindings? 20:30:34 francogrex: and besides, pasting a big piece of undocumented stuff and then saying "it generates 79 false positives" is not a very good way to get expert insight. 20:30:48 just try it 20:31:00 francogrex: maybe you want to narrow your testcase down a bit, and explain _how_ the randum numbers are wrong. 20:31:00 (0 0.0). I have no idea what that means. 20:31:23 or should I create a new cl-libcrypto-ffi library? 20:31:25 francogrex: try what? i don't know what your program does, i don't know what "79 false positives" would be. 20:31:30 Fare: yes. 20:31:47 Fare: it would be useful to have a cffi based openssl library 20:31:48 the horner is quite suspect. 20:31:49 H4ns: "yes, either", or "yes, the latter" ? 20:32:30 Fare: sorry, i did not see the first question. i'd add to cl+ssl, as cl+ssl does not have "stream" in the name 20:32:31 *Fare* considers cleaning the festering pile of bad code that is quux-crypto, that fails to run against the more recent libcrypto because it hardcodes a structure length. 20:32:31 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:46 H4ns: I don't know how much documentation would help that mess of code. I feel like I have to have a PHD in discrete math to understand it 20:32:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:33:10 not too long ago I checked something else that would have detected if sbcl's rng wasnt good. AFAICT, it is as good as it gets. 20:33:15 joekarma: i've only glanced at the code long enough to decide that i don't get any of it. 20:35:00 ok. Sent email to the cl+ssl maintainers to ask them if they are interested. 20:35:00 I will write the code, anyway 20:35:13 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:03 prxq: MT fails a few tests in TestU. SFMT is a bit better, and MRGs pass some more again. 20:36:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:37:00 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:00 pkhuong: well, it's a MT. It's as good as an MT gets, then. 20:37:54 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:39:17 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 20:40:06 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-0-174.lns10.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:06 H4ns: actually I am very sure it is non-random 20:41:32 I use the runs test: http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/eda/section3/eda35d.htm 20:42:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:42:16 francogrex: of course it is not random. it is a pseudo random number generator that can be seeded to generate a predictable sequence. 20:42:37 the p value of the first run is 0.0444 quite significant, and then it goes up to randomeness at subsequent runs 20:42:46 which proves my first impression 20:43:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:46:05 francogrex: i think in order to analyse a random number generator, you should use specific methods to do exactly that, and not conclude from the output of your application that the random number generator is somehow faulty. 20:46:40 francogrex: and furthermore, you could use a portable prng to validate your program on different platforms. i think i suggested that a few hours ago. 20:46:57 francogrex: so you start sbcl, run your code, and at the first run you get p's in that range? 20:47:08 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-181-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-220-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:49 mrSpec [~Spec@LDijon-156-65-16-54.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:47:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@LDijon-156-65-16-54.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host] 20:47:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:48:06 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:49:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:51:43 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:52:08 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:53:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:53:28 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:47 francogrex: What is that code supposed to do? 20:54:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/132477 20:54:41 this is more of a case 20:55:28 H4ns: runs test is the ultimate test, it's a proof non-contestable 20:55:48 So, in one experiment, we get a p value of .04, and that sends you running for the hills? We'd expect to observe that result once every 20ish runs on a truly random source. Come back if you have a p < 1e-6 with several seeds. 20:55:51 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:24 re drawing/games in CL, here we go, I guess: http://blocky.io/ 20:57:36 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 20:58:17 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.151.41] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 hmm.. true. But surprised that the first default would be the 5% 20:58:29 wow. http://blocky.io/emacs-glass-demo.ogv 20:58:46 francogrex: always? 20:58:57 add^_^ [~add^_@m90-141-51-235.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:58:59 prxq: same seed (: 20:59:03 prxq: yes but not surpriosed 20:59:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:20 same seed yes. sbcl it's by default same seed 20:59:26 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-58-142.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:26 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 20:59:28 dim: huh, very smalltalky 20:59:29 ah, same seed, of course. 20:59:30 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-171.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 oh well then... resolved 21:02:48 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-24-12.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:04 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:03:57 (sigh of relief) 21:04:18 Bike: I guess 21:05:36 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:59 d3vnu11 [~devnull@174-30.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:06:42 dim: join #lispgames if you want to talk about blocky, games and stuff 21:07:53 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 21:08:11 I will 21:08:21 it's night here, not today :) 21:08:45 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:09:22 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-8-54.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:35 dim: ah ok 21:09:58 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.151.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:30 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:49 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:15:47 paul0 [~user@189.114.199.146.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:15:53 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.0.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:18:03 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:20:48 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 21:22:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:23:57 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.161.136] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:25:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:28:20 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:28:21 asa1024 [~asa@unaffiliated/asa1024] has joined #lisp 21:29:12 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-8-54.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:51 ASau [~user@95-24-181-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.99.184] has joined #lisp 21:33:04 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:35:30 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-51-235.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:35:56 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 21:36:03 Anyone taken a peek at ISLISP? 21:36:29 What role does it play? If you want small, you go for Scheme, right? If you want features and such, go CL, right? 21:36:32 Where does ISLISP fit in? 21:36:42 jso` [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:52 It just seems to be a slightly cut-down version of CL for international use. 21:36:59 With zero traction. 21:37:37 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:38:32 add^_^ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:38:48 -!- jso` [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:38:56 I think it mostly fits in as a historical artifact. 21:39:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:52 -!- add^_^ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:08 The standard doesn't seem half bad. 21:40:12 Seems pretty good, really. 21:40:18 It's based on CL, Scheme, etc. 21:40:19 add^_^ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:40:23 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 ISLISP is dead. CL is undead. 21:40:59 :P Is that all? 21:41:01 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 21:41:08 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 21:42:12 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:42:13 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 21:42:21 why would "international use" require a cut-down CL version? 21:42:30 -!- asa1024 [~asa@unaffiliated/asa1024] has left #lisp 21:42:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:42:38 *ehu* notes that his international use doesn't require cutting down on CL. 21:43:23 -!- Daisy [Eile@95.209.92.19.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:59 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-024-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:22 Agreed. 21:44:27 I'm not saying it /did/ need cutting down. 21:44:34 I'm just trying to figure out why it exists. 21:44:49 Other than "Oh, this is ISO! We can't EVER agree with aNSI!" 21:44:55 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:45:17 Richard Gabriel has written why it exists. 21:45:28 Hey ASau! 21:45:38 :) googling for him now 21:45:40 the thing that is obnoxious to me about CL as I try to learn it is the constant inconsistancies 21:45:50 Basically, it started as parallel effort in Europe, 21:45:57 just remembering what macros require you to quote vs which don't is annoying as hell 21:46:10 ltbarcly1: like what? 21:46:23 and U.S.A. community didn't communicate back then. 21:46:28 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.54.57.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:16 The ISLISP standard doesn't seem to be dead - it's still being revised, ec. 21:47:18 *etc. 21:47:22 like make-instance 21:47:25 but aye, so it's all down to broken communication. 21:47:29 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:47:30 Yay. 21:47:31 :P 21:47:32 ltbarcly1: make-instance is a function. 21:47:33 make-instance isn't a macro... 21:47:36 ltbarcly1: macros return forms. that's not inconsistent. 21:48:00 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.112.131.130] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 why does it need the name of the class rather than the class itself? 21:48:14 elderK: I can easily believe that ISLISP would be easier to implement from scratch, and could be better suited to non-image-based workflows. 21:48:14 you can pass it the class itself too. 21:48:20 ltbarcly1: you can pass either. 21:48:26 fine, you win this round :) 21:48:38 Dammit people. Stop with your facts and logic. 21:48:44 HAHAHAH 21:48:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:48:46 ok, how about the difference between let and setf 21:48:58 the way they're completely different? 21:49:21 (.. (x y) (w z)) vs (... x y w z) 21:49:38 oops, typo there 21:49:59 but anyway, I see why let has to be the way it is, since it has a body 21:50:00 setf sets values, let binds. 21:50:09 that's a completely different function. 21:50:18 functionality 21:50:19 ehu: you're missing the point 21:50:33 yes, the difference is arbitrary. 21:50:56 setf could just as easily work like (setf ((x y) (w z))) 21:51:06 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@62.61.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:14 and the same with everything that binds or sets 21:51:21 #lojban is that way. 21:51:31 does that actually cause you problems? 21:51:42 ltbarcly1: (setf (values a b c) (values 1 2 3)) 21:51:45 it's just one more thing 21:51:49 ltbarcly1: if you want it differently. 21:51:51 ehu: you're missing the point again 21:52:12 (m-v-b (x w) (values y z) ...) for symetry. 21:52:31 pkhuong: that's not how let works though, so it's not the same, but I digres 21:52:32 s 21:52:57 wouldn't you guys agree, *ideally*, if a language has arbitrary points, that as much as possible it would be consistent in arbitrary decisions? 21:52:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:53:12 You know what they say about consistency. 21:53:18 I realize CL inherited a lot of it's mish-mashy feel from the various lisps it was frankensteined out of 21:53:26 consistency and arbitrariness often turn out to be pretty difficult to define 21:53:29 pkhuong: they don't say that about consistency 21:53:58 Is there any commercial ISLISP since ILOG stopped producing its Lisp? 21:53:58 pkhuong: that's 'foolish consistency' 21:54:28 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.112.131.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:54:35 ltbarcly1: and I believe it's foolish. 21:54:43 it's arbitrary 21:54:50 ltbarcly1: it's not that mish-mashy. For a language this age, it's very consistent. 21:55:20 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 21:55:56 of course it's arbitrary. The set of macros grew organically over decades. One could argue for a tabula rasa effort, but, AFAICT, all the useful languages grew organically. 21:56:37 it's not at all consistent 21:56:47 that doesn't mean it's bad, but you can't say it's consistent 21:56:57 pkhuong, FSVO "grew organically" 21:57:01 So, we can optimise for the first hours of contact, or worry about other things... 21:57:11 Fare: since 1.5. 21:57:12 CL is a chimera of several languages that grew organically 21:57:20 integerp, floatp, float-nan-p, y-or-n-p 21:57:28 may be, but they all shared an idea 21:57:30 aha, a pattern, clearly if you have a -, the p gets a - right? 21:57:32 nope 21:57:42 ltbarcly1, yes, that's the official pattern 21:57:43 it's seemingly completely random whether there is a - before the p 21:57:43 actually, the -p/p convention is well explained. 21:57:46 char-lessp 21:57:51 do these things seriously set you back? 21:57:53 ltbarcly1: small stuff. 21:57:57 and y-or-n-p isn't the same as the rest of those. 21:58:00 ltbarcly1, that's an exception. lessp is a block 21:58:39 process-p 21:59:00 ltbarcly1, where is process-p from? 21:59:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:59:21 float-nan-p isn't standard either... 21:59:36 Fare: it was decided that defstruct shouldn't be clever about the predicate name, at some point ;) 21:59:58 ltbarcly1: so CL has a few wrinkles. So what? 22:00:21 ltbarcly1: The beautiful thing about CL is that you have the power to fix all of these issues. I look forward to ltbarcly1-user, "A consistency layer for Common Lisp" 22:00:28 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:38 now you're being defensive, my point was that it's quite inconsistent, which is not ideal, especially for a standard 22:00:56 ltbarcly1: there were more important reasons for those names 22:01:02 ThomasH: I can only fix them by being antisocial and inconveniencing anyone else I want to work with 22:01:18 since CL is strongly for backward-compat 22:01:29 p_l: CL isn't compatible with any previous lisp 22:01:37 it is somewhat compatible with lots 22:01:54 ltbarcly1: so don't fix it :-) None of it matters in practice. 22:02:14 ltbarcly1: If you look at CL as a collection of programming concepts, it is pretty consistent within the commands for a concept and less consistent between concepts. You just have to understand that. 22:02:36 if you want a 100% uniform sterile lisping environment, go use scheme 22:02:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:02:53 ltbarcly1: also, making your own -user package isn't that bad 22:02:56 if you want to get things done, the things you're talking about don't matter 22:02:57 *p_l* does it 22:03:17 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:19 I'm more interested in regularity in semantics than in syntax. 22:03:35 ISF [~ivan@187.64.220.85] has joined #lisp 22:03:44 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:48 you guys are right in what you are saying, but it is still annoying to someone learning 22:04:05 I have to constantly refer to the hyperspec in a way that I wouldn't if I were learning python or scheme 22:04:07 ltbarcly1: what did you program in before? 22:04:28 I have done a ton of python, and a little of just about everything else 22:04:33 cl is a lot more regular than most of the popular stuff out there 22:05:02 ltbarcly1: generally if you get far enough to be typing -p or p you'reu probably not using slime and fuzzy completion, which you probably should heh 22:05:08 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:06:17 ltbarcly1: I'm on your side! The naming sometimes makes finding function names more difficult than it should 22:06:40 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:07:05 -!- cnl [~pony@95.106.96.62] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:07:24 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-032-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:08 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-69-13.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:13 timor [~icke@port-92-195-20-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:10:07 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.171.231] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 scheme is sterile, but there are plenty of fertile scheme implementations. 22:10:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: restarting in full debug mode, brb :(] 22:10:54 When using cl-fad's walk-directory i get a c-string decoding error on a bad filename. So far so bad, but it doesn't offer me any restarts. Am I missing something? I want to be able to either skip the file or abort the whole operation. 22:11:03 (using sbcl) 22:11:16 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f4b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:11:56 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:11:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:12:06 Fare: but set! doesn't mirror let either ;) 22:12:34 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-196-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:13:03 timor, problem with file names not utf-8 ? 22:13:22 ok, here's another annoyance, get vs gethash, are the order of the arguments swapped for some reason? 22:14:06 elt and nth would be the usual example for swapped arguments 22:14:09 Fare, exactly 22:14:10 ltbarcly1, what's your larger point? 22:14:19 Fare, but i want to be able to handle the errors 22:14:24 these things exist, but they're not exactly major issues 22:14:33 joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.222.140] has joined #lisp 22:15:10 ltbarcly1: A better example would have been ELT versus NTH. That is the canonical example of inconsistency in CL. Come on! At least do a little research into your griping. 22:15:26 ltbarcly1, the point of CL is not to be perfect, but to be standard. You're invited to write your own packages/libraries to make things better, and get them widely adopted. 22:15:35 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.57.249.176] has joined #lisp 22:15:46 I see, it's perfect or shut up :) 22:16:07 <|3b|> ltbarcly1: more that it is too late to fix it 22:16:16 for hash-tables and such, I recommend my own lisp-interface-library as the basis for a more consistent API -- and it has both pure and stateful hash-tables. 22:16:28 ltbarcly1, no, it's "so what?" 22:16:41 so maybe the standard is holding lisp back 22:16:42 does sbcl somehow offer restarts for reading bad utf8-sequences? 22:16:44 like pkhuong said, it's syntax. pretty boring to worry about 22:16:55 ltbarcly1, there is no lisp to be held back without the standard 22:17:03 <|3b|> that is sort of the point of standards :p 22:17:08 it's standard, except look at code that is trying to do anything that isn't super simple, it's full of VM specific hacks 22:17:08 ltbarcly1, you want to work on a better lisp? Plenty of us do. 22:17:16 so the standard doesn't get you much 22:17:17 VM? What? 22:17:46 ltbarcly1, once again, what is your point? 22:17:51 I mean allegro vs sbcl vs clisp, they are just full of inconsistencies where you have to put in implementation specific code 22:17:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:54 timor: it does; one of the restarts is to continue with a replacement character 22:17:54 <|3b|> standard gets you the ability to run 40 year old code that puts the index as first arg of NTH 22:17:57 ltbarcly1, we all know the unniceties of CL, here. 22:18:22 the standard gets you portable libraries 22:18:24 ltbarcly1, are you here to propose solutions, or just rehash known petty annoyances? 22:18:25 so on the one hand, the standard is good because it lets you run code all over the place, but on the other hand you can't actually 22:18:33 but you can. we do all the time. 22:18:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:18:48 pkhuong, how can i find out the restart's name? 22:18:48 I have code that runs on 14 different implementations. 22:18:53 is CL the version with the most/best implementations 22:18:59 timor: look at the source code? 22:19:01 Version of what? 22:19:09 dialect of lisp sorry 22:19:18 pkhuong, the debugger somehow doesn't let me choose one besides returning to the repl 22:19:20 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:19:20 *|3b|* suspects there are more schemes than CLs 22:19:21 alright, I'll stop griping, but lisp is in a unique position, because you could evolve the language purely by adding to it without making it worse 22:19:25 best runtimes/compilers 22:19:29 doomlord, "scheme" has more implementations, FSVO "scheme". 22:19:36 other langauges can't do that, because you would end up in syntax hell 22:19:39 <|3b|> not sure now many of them are better than average CLs 22:20:26 and what does something need to be defined as "a" lisp.. 22:20:34 did I say 14? I mean 15. Yay forks! 22:20:39 <|3b|> first you need a definition of 'a lisp' 22:20:56 timor: I don't know if we always use octets-to-string. You might also be using an old version. 22:21:06 out of 15 implementations, maybe 10 are actually maintained. 22:21:37 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:21:39 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.54.57.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:21:52 How can someone possibly whine about a standard that gives them the power to meld the language into anything they want? 22:21:55 some more actively than others. 22:22:06 joekarma: good question 22:22:08 joekarma, because of all it lacks? 22:22:09 cnl [~pony@95.106.96.62] has joined #lisp 22:22:13 There are probably hundreds of new scheme implementations each year. UdeM used to give birth to a dozen per year, with Feeley's compiler course. 22:22:37 I mean, I can understand if the standard limited expressivity in some way 22:22:38 pkhuong, i have 1.0.58, i'll try again with 1.1.0 22:22:49 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:12 timor: no change around that part of the code since .58. 22:23:29 But it doesn't, so who cares. It gives some measure of consistency across implementations, with the inconsistencies being bonuses 22:23:34 Depending on your needs, you could also assume iso-8859-1. 22:23:50 joekarma: there are some things that would be difficult to change without rewriting large chunks and/or diving into implementation details 22:24:11 e.g., local package nicknames 22:24:14 concurrency support, ability to handle low-level/real-time resources, FFI, delimited continuations, hygienic macros, abstraction of the global scope, virtualizability... there are many things a modern Lisp could have. 22:24:17 does common lisp have an equivalent of c++ 'boost' ... 22:24:31 doomlord: defmacro. 22:24:50 heh. i mean a community 'quasi-standard' 22:24:55 layered over the standard 22:24:56 alexandria. 22:25:05 Things that couldn't simply be provided as a library? (defpackage my-user-lib (:use :cl+)) 22:25:40 a decent module system, optional strong typing, contracts, better reader abstractions, a memory model, a fix to a lot of corners in the standard... 22:25:42 oGMo: local package nicknames, afaik, require only reader change 22:25:44 cltl3-prime! 22:25:55 p_l: "only"? 22:26:04 Good point in the module system actually 22:26:06 p_l: (asdf:load-system :package-renamings) 22:26:13 p_l: right but you'd have to rewrite a major chunk of the reader afaict 22:26:20 I mean, (asdf:load-system :package-renaming) 22:26:21 That is a pain point for sure 22:26:29 pkhuong: then I suspect SBCL's reader is extremely nice code, cause it didn't look like much work ;) 22:26:31 pkhuong, the backtrace tells me it is a call to SB-IMPL::READ-FROM-C-STRING/UTF-8 in SB-IMPL::CALL-WITH-NATIVE-DIRECTORY-ITERATOR 22:26:32 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@63.251.54.158] has joined #lisp 22:26:35 why a reader change? 22:27:03 if you want to subvert the entire reader, (asdf:load-system :reader-interception) 22:27:23 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:27 I have no desire for strong typing however... Not much of an argument against it, but hey. 22:27:35 er 22:27:40 Seems if it was optional it would defeat the purpose 22:27:42 CL is pretty strongly-typed 22:27:53 joekarma, I'm just saying they are things one might want from a better Lisp standard. 22:27:59 perhaps you mean statically typed, and perhaps you haven't seen declare TYPE or THE 22:28:05 Fair enough, fare 22:28:09 racket has a lot of them, btw, though it's hardly "standard". 22:28:10 type inference 22:28:23 I meant statically typed 22:28:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:28:43 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:50 joekarma, Racket has its "Typed Racket" language that integrates well with the untyped variant. 22:28:57 a bit better and more decideable type system would be nice. And better tracking of types, making it easier to use unboxed typing 22:29:18 unboxed as in infered types without tags? 22:29:42 I'm not sure that types for representation and types for safety/analysis interact well. 22:30:09 how about a mode which requires types to be inferable 22:30:16 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:41 infer all objects to be T, done? 22:30:47 doomlord, that's what typed-racket does. 22:31:06 sounds nice 22:31:32 whats the catch with racket. everything has *something* broken 22:31:51 doomlord, what's nicer is how it automatically inserts contract-checkers at the interface between typed and untyped, so you can catch who's at fault for breaking a type promise. 22:31:52 pkhuong: btw, would it be hard to add unboxed entrypoints for functions in SBCL? i.e. making it possible for the compiler to generate a call that passes unboxed doubles etc. 22:31:55 the mighty haskell has broken records 22:32:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:32:34 doomlord, racket is not as fast as you might like; its vast library not as coherent as you'd like; its CLOS equivalent, swindle, is not well integrated with the rest of the system. 22:33:07 eek, the type inference doesn't speed it up? is that just 'less work gone into implemenetations' 22:33:33 all in all, it's more optimized for academia than for the industry (though there are some industrial users) 22:33:49 p_l: adding entrypoints isn't that hard; generating calls as well is another tale. 22:34:22 doomlord, there is a modest speed up in typed modules. They don't do integer interval inference well (if at all), so no vast fixnum speedup. 22:34:30 It would be easier if we still had non-trivial compilation-unit support. 22:34:44 pkhuong: I'm a bit inspired in this by VLM code, where they had boxed and unboxed calls in microcode (aka the alpha assembly program) 22:35:27 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-61-234.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:35:34 p_l, everything is "boxed" -- but tags are on separate pages. 22:36:17 just checking: does 'boxed' mean data is tagged with fine-grain runtime type information 22:36:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:45 yes 22:36:48 p_l: sadly, I'm more interested in an ML that compiles away polymorphism JIT. The prenex-form types are perfect for this. 22:36:50 to a first approximation 22:37:17 Fare: VLM had two entry points in many an instruction handler, one for "default" boxed input, the other fast-path which bypassed type-check and unboxing 22:37:21 pkhuong, you mean, transforming all your functions to monomorphic at compile-time? 22:37:33 Fare: no, doing it JIT. 22:37:44 at least that's what I understood from the assembly 22:37:45 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 22:38:01 Fare: so, like MLton, but not as clever because it's lazy. 22:38:19 i like haskell's idea of homogeneous lists, and tuples. maybe some lisps can boil down to that.. 22:38:33 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:40 p_l: There's a half-baked patch for CMUCL. 22:38:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:39:21 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:27 btw, does anyone have examples of highly-optimized/performant CL code? not necessarily a big sample, but something I can show at a talk presenting lisp 22:40:45 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 p_l: what kind of code? 22:41:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:42:59 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:04 pkhuong: probably numerical bits or some fast complex data structure operations. I'm mainly looking for cases showing the possible ways you can optimize code, to counter various detractors :) 22:45:29 It really depends on what you want to show. Bordeaux-fft is nice if you want to show straight code. Otherwise, cl-ppcre is a classic. Ironclad's pretty good, and not *too* metaprogramming heavy, iirc. napa-fft3 is competitive with FFTW, but not everyone is sympathetic to the "just write a real compiler" argument. 22:46:17 pkhuong, so in http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~greg/cs256sp2005/lec15.txt that would be the first option 2 ? 22:46:59 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good night/gute nacht/dobranoc] 22:47:25 pkhuong: thanks for pointers anyway 22:47:30 Fare: yup. 22:47:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:48:13 we want to show CL as practical language to people who might have gone through one of the horrible "LISP uses lists for everything, here, look at that SETQ" lectures ;) 22:48:21 I put my money on the fifth option (numbered 4). 22:48:29 or whose main experience was AutoLISP 22:48:34 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.222.140] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 22:48:46 at which point your second option is "just" partial evaluation. 22:48:59 pypy style 22:49:06 p_l: there's always the shootout. 22:50:26 Fare: just PE, eh? I like 2 because it can also flatten a lot of HoF. 22:51:13 ltbarcly1: I feel you, man 22:51:22 :P 22:51:27 That sounds really dodgy. 22:52:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:52:16 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:52:39 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:37 Higher-order Functions? 22:54:31 pkhuong, i think i am victim of Bug #317409 22:54:36 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-044-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:59 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has left #lisp 22:55:27 Fare: yup. LLVM can easily be convinced to inline or at least constant-fold indirect calls. 22:56:44 replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 22:57:33 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:57:44 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eshdjwufhoqerzpk] has joined #lisp 22:57:57 are we anywhere near a LLVM backend to SBCL? 22:58:29 *Fare* supposes LLVM should be the obvious first attempt at a backend for his linear lisp. 22:58:29 Where can I learn about "LAP" ? 22:58:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:58:51 elderK, nothing interesting there. Just assembly with a parenthesized syntax. 22:59:06 <|3b|> p_l: sb-cga has some interesting optimizations, at least on sbcl (SIMD stuff + automatically removing intermediate variables where possible at compile time if i remember right) 22:59:07 Alrighty. Cool. 22:59:14 Fare: nope. 22:59:21 Man. 22:59:26 ISLISP actually looked kind of decent. 22:59:28 *sigh* 22:59:53 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 23:00:05 Not CL but still, looked decent. It was like a baby CL. Between CL and Scheme. 23:00:34 |3b|: thanks 23:00:58 *p_l* is building a LAP right now 23:01:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@18.111.91.83] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:01:15 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:36 for MMIX, because I didn't have a nicely readable info about AVR 23:01:43 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 23:02:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 *Xach* holds head, something has gone horribly awry 23:04:46 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-69-13.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:05:54 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:05 pkhuong, nope what? 23:06:14 -!- agumonkey [~agu@206.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:28 *Fare* assumes nope, no LLVM backend to SBCL anywhere near in sight. 23:06:38 Xach: what's wrong? 23:06:58 You stubbed your toe again? 23:07:21 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.232.49.211] has joined #lisp 23:07:27 you stubbed your function implementations? 23:08:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:00 Fare: exactly. 23:10:19 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:11:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:12:26 Fare: lift has leaped from one library to another somehow. 23:13:14 is that bad? 23:13:50 in my case it is 23:14:00 50 or so systems have stopped working. mostly tests, but still. 23:14:42 each failing system is like a mosquito bite 23:15:47 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:15:50 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:47 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 23:16:59 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 23:17:22 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-8-54.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:53 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:12 gah 23:20:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:23:38 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-agalakpyjypulsra] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:24:57 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:10 replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 23:28:25 What is Lift? 23:28:27 A library? 23:28:53 elderK: yes 23:30:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 joekarma [~joekarma@S01060007e9558060.vw.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:36 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:54 aha, it is an update to common-lisp-stat what done it 23:34:43 urandom__ [~user@p548A2163.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:31 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:36:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-146-31.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:36:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:39:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:46:14 What's the general approach to distributing a program built with CL? 23:46:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:46:29 Obviously it's implementation dependent, but, 23:46:30 like, 23:46:44 elderK: dump core/executable + whatever auxilaries your program has and deploy them as binary 23:46:47 does it just boil down to saving a lisp image and bundling that with some runtime all in the same binary? 23:46:59 *elderK* nods 23:47:19 *needs to learn about the license stuff with the various free lisp implementations* 23:47:22 ie: 23:47:50 If you want to deploy your program, X and to market/sell it, you have to make sure that the implementation's license is alright with that, right? 23:47:55 If that makes ANY sense at all... 23:48:07 yes 23:48:10 Since that implementation's code will be in your image... 23:48:41 elderK: the LLGPL is related to that 23:48:46 If hte core image is say, LGPL... and you're app isn't... then... you can't exactly build a nice monolithic binary, right? You can only link to LGPL libraries dynamically? 23:48:50 SBCL and CCL are safe, LW has no runtime fees, ACL (un)fortunately has "call us" pricing including for runtime and compiler in deployed apps 23:48:50 Ah, thanks madnificent 23:48:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:49:01 elderK: much (very much) code is released under MIT/BSD in the lisp world, it seems :) 23:49:08 Thank god for that. 23:49:31 so far I'm taking a shining to ECL 23:49:33 elderK: with LGPL, I guess you can ask the authors for linking exception 23:49:35 p_l: LW has no runtime fees? Really? What if your product includes a REPL? 23:50:01 jasom: afaik none. It's ACL that's got the complex tiered licensing 23:50:06 elderK: building a distributable binary with ECL is completely different from the rest, you don't dump-image 23:50:15 p_l: You have to have a commerciallicense to actual develop commercial stuff, though, right? 23:50:24 jasom: it's just compiling to C, right? 23:50:30 then linking that up. 23:50:37 But still, you'll be including ECL code, as well, no? 23:50:55 elderK: yeah. I've never managed to figure out how to build a standalone executable with ecl, but I haven't spent a lot of time on it 23:51:04 each lisp module compiles to a c-style object file 23:51:09 elderK: ECL is safe in terms of LGPL, because it comes as dynamic lib you can include in your deployment 23:51:09 It sounds like Chicken Scheme. 23:51:35 But if oyu want just ONE binary, one big binary, 23:51:37 you're screwed, right? 23:51:55 elderK: not necessarily 23:52:04 oh? 23:52:06 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:41 check if ECL doesn't have a linking exception is one thing, and the other is that GPL family licenses don't actually require you to ship everything, only provide it on demand 23:53:02 if you're looking for "buy commercial license or be screwed", then read AGPL 23:54:06 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.168] has joined #lisp 23:54:07 p_l: really? Crazy. I always thought that with LGPL you could only dynamically link, not statically, unless your software was also LGPL/GPL. 23:54:52 or .. liike, with GPL, you have to be GPL too. 23:54:54 elderK: where is someone claiming that that is not true? 23:55:27 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:50 My bad. 23:56:02 I'm just trying to determine what kind of things are safe, is all, for various uses. 23:56:02 elderK: it also means you were right ;) 23:56:07 Hahaha 23:56:08 :) 23:56:09 YAY! 23:56:11 I like it when that happens. 23:56:15 :P 23:57:24 :) Anyone seen much about poplog? 23:57:26 It looks interesting! 23:57:33 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-143.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:58:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:58:27 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:59:06 catmtking_ [~catmtking@wireless-fac-staff-wpa-138-23-66-200.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 23:59:19 elderK: with LGPL, you need to either link dynamically, or provide a way to relink the binary later 23:59:22 -!- catmtking_ [~catmtking@wireless-fac-staff-wpa-138-23-66-200.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Client Quit]