00:03:29 -!- BrianRice [~water@174-31-170-148.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:04:12 is there anyway to declare array column type in postmodern? 00:05:22 what do you mean ? 00:05:24 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:34 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-67-119-193-166.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:06:52 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:19 postgres supports columns that are arrays of values. i'm not sure how postmodern exposes that, though. 00:08:07 can with-open-file be used in recursive functions? 00:09:39 ie. will it open a stream on each recursion, or will it open a stream once and remain active until the function terminates? 00:10:46 why would it open a stream only once ? 00:11:23 if you want to use the stream in a recursive function you can just pass the stream down? 00:12:27 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:12:36 -!- poindontcare [~user@c-50-131-221-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:05 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:13:47 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:16:35 fe[nl]ix: like character varying(255)[] 00:16:46 fe[nl]ix: how to express that in postmodern? 00:17:21 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:18:16 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:20:07 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:01 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:44 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 00:22:24 huangjs: I don't think it's currently possible 00:22:36 fe[nl]ix: ah... sad... 00:22:41 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:23:28 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-239-239.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 00:26:21 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Farewell, farewell, God knows when we shall meet again. --Shakespeare] 00:27:22 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:52 it's pretty easy to patch into postmodern, if I remember correctly. 00:29:37 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:07 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:23 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:13 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-405-208.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:40:51 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-303-85.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:42:12 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ] 00:44:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:54 ennk [~nnk@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:46:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 00:50:33 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:35 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 00:54:57 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:55:24 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:55 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:57:27 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:50 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:01:37 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:02:08 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:44 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:07:17 -!- jfe_ [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: afk] 01:07:47 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:37 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B79B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:10 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B8F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:14 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:48 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:07 sykopomp: yeah, maybe I'll do that 01:27:46 -!- real-hitecnology [~hitecnolo@46.233.210.55] has quit [Quit: real-hitecnology] 01:32:11 -!- ennk [~nnk@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:03 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 01:34:12 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:39:09 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-21-43.net-htp.de] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 01:41:30 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:42:00 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:57 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:53:51 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55:37 -!- prxq__ [~mommer@mnhm-590c2df5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:02:28 leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has joined #lisp 02:07:07 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:07:29 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:08:04 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 02:08:20 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:22 prxq__ [~mommer@mnhm-590c21f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:50 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:00 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:19:03 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:25 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:19:44 nnxk [~nnxk@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:20:18 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 02:22:51 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@101.168.20.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:23:22 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:32 Any general advice for tracking down an apparent memory leak in SBCL? 02:25:57 I have a web application using portableallegroserve I'm concerned that the problem might be deep in portable aserve and difficult to find by reading through the code So any way to examine the heap directly and get descriptions on some of the objects which are taking up all the space? 02:26:07 let me know if a mailing list is a better place to ask about this 02:29:23 you might very well be the only user of portableaserve left 02:29:36 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:29:50 fe[nl]ix: skyopomp: actually postmodern supports array type syntax, (array ) 02:30:48 H4ns: I just made bulk-copy.lisp work and tested in sbcl, but currently it depends on swank. 02:31:01 I doubt that. There was some discussion about it on the Lispworks mailing list a while back - some tweaks to make it work better on LW with SMP. 02:31:20 huangjs: the documentation of s-sql doesn't mention that 02:31:36 Anyway i'd like to try to breathe some life back into portableaserve before ripping my whole thing apart and trying to switch it to hunchentoot or something... 02:31:38 fe[nl]ix: skyopomp: i'm using H4ns's master branch btw, I think the doc is outdated 02:32:03 and i'm not 100% sure that portableaserve is even the real culprit here 02:32:28 i don't want to make any assumptions, just want to start by examining the heap and see what is not getting gc'ed 02:33:46 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:03 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:10 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:59 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.145.5.180] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-29-53.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:42:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:43:13 leo2007 [~leo@95.215.60.37] has joined #lisp 02:45:07 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:47:21 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@95.215.60.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:49:05 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:51:17 jfe_ [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:21 is there any easy way to read an n-length string from a stream? 02:51:44 jfe_: read-sequence is an easy way 02:52:01 make-string + read-sequence should do the trick 02:54:42 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-60-158.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:56:34 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:57:37 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:58:59 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:59:47 ASau [~user@95-26-212-241.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:00:06 I have some weak hash tables -- they might not be working as I expect in SBCL - only have really tested them in Allegro. 03:00:12 I think that is where I will start. 03:00:30 If those weak hash tables are not really acting "weak" then that could explain my problem right there... 03:03:46 -!- benny [~user@i577A7CD7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:03:57 in SBCL I'm making the weak hash table with (make-hash-table :weakness :key-or-value) 03:04:40 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:27 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 03:06:12 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 03:06:32 gendl: that's probably not what you want. 03:07:24 pkhuong: ok I will experiment with the different options for :weakness 03:07:26 gendl: that means that the table is only weak on key *or* value; if either one is still live, the entry remains live. 03:07:37 or you could read the documentation and think... 03:07:43 Xach: thanks ^_^ 03:09:09 yes, i have the doc right here indeed, the key may well not become garbage. 03:11:05 thank you and good night. 03:24:11 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:24:29 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:26:05 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 03:29:15 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:30:27 is it possible to use both &rest and &key in function parameter definitions? 03:31:26 yeah. ((lambda (&rest r &key k) (values r k)) :k 4) => (:K 4), 4 03:31:26 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:32:15 jfe_: Be aware of "Mixing Different Parameter Types" 03:32:35 jfe_: yes, but the interaction is a bit surprising. The rest list includes key parameters, and everything after optional arguments must be key parameters... &allow-other-keys may be useful. 03:33:42 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:04 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:28 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:12 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:43:40 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:44:41 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:11 is there a lot of overhead in using strings as streams? 03:45:44 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:49:14 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 03:51:59 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 03:58:24 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:59:53 jfe: what do you mean? 04:04:31 -!- kanedank` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:11 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:42 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:10:40 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:13:27 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-123-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:30 loke_erc: would it horribly inefficient to call with-input-from-string more than few times? 04:18:59 -!- nnxk [~nnxk@dynamic2-248-029.usc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:19:33 jfe: the question is impossible to answer because you neither quantified "horribly" nor "more than a few" 04:21:57 loke_erc: Is using a string as a stream typically a more expensive operation than say, accessing it as an array? Obviously this depends on implementation, but on the average case, is the difference noticeable? 04:23:00 I am using array access as an example because it is an operation most people understand and can gague in 'cost' pretty well, even if the exact number of operations might be unknown 04:24:26 zulu_inuoe__: yes. 04:24:45 jfe_: You have your answer 04:25:15 thanks. 04:26:24 not that w-i-f-s itself is a "slow" operation; it just conses up a stream object. 04:30:41 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 04:39:36 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:47:58 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:27 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:52:02 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:00:36 SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:26 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:07:49 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ] 05:14:27 Hum, apparently Lisp is a good tool to find float bugs on foreign libraries... 05:16:20 I've apparently found some in gtk and while googling for it I say a thread about R. 05:16:20 05:16:31 s/say/saw 05:22:15 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:23:55 I wonder if and how to report these things to the foreign libraries. 05:24:46 Presumably you'd just use their tracker. And what's the bug? 05:27:46 Bike: The thing is, I'm not sure. Talking about gtk, I get an DIVISION-BY-ZERO running the main loop, so I wrap it with a (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:divide-by-zero) ...). Now, using a widget I got a FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION so I'm wrapping it with (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:divide-by-zero :invalid) ...). 05:30:06 I don't know how to report these things to them but wrapping stuff doesn't seem the right way to deal with it. 05:33:36 Or rather the _best_ way, as wrapping them makes the problems go away. 05:34:45 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 05:36:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 05:37:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:39:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.58.192] has joined #lisp 05:39:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.58.192] has quit [Changing host] 05:39:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:44:31 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-comspbswhetaahsn] has joined #lisp 05:45:57 -!- jfe_ [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 05:46:11 hi didi 05:46:40 sounds like you don't have much evidence for where the root cause lies either way. 05:46:53 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:47:03 i'd dig deeper before reporting it against the foreign lib 05:47:16 rootlocus: Yeah, you're absolutely right. 05:47:19 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:48:18 didi: sounds like an interesting problem though, have fun tracking it down! 05:48:41 Hehehe. 05:48:59 :D 05:49:47 It's a bit frustrating, to be honest, as I have not idea what to do besides wrapping forms when something weird pop up. 05:49:55 s/not/no 05:50:08 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:50:52 you could try to track down where the division by zero is. 05:51:51 Bike: I tried running the code with gdb to see what function at the memory position was triggering it, but I got lost pretty quickly. 05:53:37 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:55:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:55:58 I mean, it could be that operating w/o traps is how the library is intended to work. Then it wouldn't be a library bug, since it's the Lisp adding the traps. I don't know, I'm not great with floats. 05:56:54 Bike: Uh, I didn't even know that such stuff existed. Thanks. 05:57:55 cl-gtk2 seems to do some stuff to float when running in SBCL 05:59:48 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 05:59:53 didi: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html#950 06:00:10 hi 06:00:20 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 06:00:21 Bike: Nice. 06:00:31 zolk3ri: Hello! 06:01:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:03:34 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:05:31 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:05:35 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.145.5.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08:08 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:01 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:09:05 qnavry [~cow@c114-76-15-67.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:09:21 -!- qnavry [~cow@c114-76-15-67.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 06:09:56 what's up didi? 06:11:10 poindontcare [~user@c-50-131-221-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:44 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:11 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 06:12:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:14:03 jewel [~jewel@196-215-139-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:14:46 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jcfbbblweuxrksdt] has joined #lisp 06:14:47 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jcfbbblweuxrksdt] has quit [Changing host] 06:14:47 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:18:09 didi: having the float traps not cleared by foreign code is a common occurrence 06:18:30 just wrap it in with-float-traps-masked and be done with it 06:20:58 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:37 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:28:07 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.152.53.171] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:33:37 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 06:34:27 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.152.53.171] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:34:39 zolk3ri: Not much. float traps and stuff. 06:34:46 stassats`: Oh right. 06:34:46 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.155] has joined #lisp 06:34:51 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:34:53 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:07 stassats`: that's reassuring. 06:35:15 stassats`: Thanks. 06:37:54 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:38:56 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:57 why lisp sucks, if it does? what do you think? 06:39:40 zolk3ri: i think that your question is inappropriate 06:40:10 nope, I may have asked it wrong 06:40:23 also we could talk about "inappropriate" for weeks lol 06:40:47 no, we could not 06:41:16 So, guys, what do you think about Lisp? Do you use it more than for example, C? Is Lisp your favourite programming language, if yes, why, if not, why not? 06:41:24 Anything you don't like about Lisp? 06:41:32 and I meant Common Lisp 06:41:47 this is a channel about Common Lisp, what do you think will be the answer? 06:42:48 stassats`: are you serious? 06:43:04 am i? 06:43:09 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:43:23 This is a channel about Common Lisp, but if I had anything against Common Lisp, I would bring it up. Right now, I'm not experienced yet in Common Lisp, but I will see, mate! 06:43:26 :P 06:44:29 -!- SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:44:41 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:13 we await your conclusions with bated breath 06:45:19 zolk3ri: the problem with common lisp is that too much of the criticism you find against it on say "Hacker" news is invalid, but too many people believe it and spread the FUD, so people learn python instead. 06:45:48 IOW the lisp problem is social, and its not even about the lisp community, but the non-lisp community, if such a thing exists. 06:46:25 that's sad 06:46:36 well Morgan Freeman died twice 06:46:40 according to news on the internet 06:46:45 pavelpenev: it's just "i don't know common lisp, but i have an opinion either way" 06:47:05 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:47:08 zolk3ri: keep the topic, please 06:47:26 zolk3ri: If you have a problem to solve, Common Lisp might or might not be an appropriate solution, if you just ask in general, the answer is there is no answer. 06:48:34 Actually I was curious if you guys have met anything you didn't like in lisp 06:49:15 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5cf9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:39 zolk3ri: how will that help you in your quest of learning lisp? 06:49:41 zolk3ri: I dislike how It doesn't solve all my problems without me having to do any work or put any thought into it. 06:49:55 also in books on lisp 06:50:12 they always bring up "Emacs, AutoCAD, Yahoo store" as lisp applications 06:50:15 but why not maxima? 06:50:42 pavelpenev: lol 06:50:49 zolk3ri: Not of those are written in Common Lisp, Yahoo store was rewritten in C++ 06:51:19 well, I read that in "Successful Lisp" 06:51:21 Emacs and AutoCAD represent huge bodies of software written in lisp. But not CL, actually 06:51:57 damn, this book is misleading me! 06:51:58 :P 06:52:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-139-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:52:15 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:30 p_l: is AutoCAD really written in lisp? 06:52:33 zolk3ri: out of interesting recent apps in CL, I can recommend AllegroGraph, Link Explorer, QPX and other stuff from ITA Software (now owned by Google) 06:52:45 stassats`: no, but huge body of code is written in AutoLISP 06:53:09 that is, code used by users worldwide. And written by them 06:53:29 there's even some specialized product for writing AutoLISP, VisualLISP iirc or something like that 06:53:59 ca. 2000 Autodesk introduced VBScript and such (probably through WSH), but it didn't really catch on, I think 06:55:01 at least I didn't see it mentioned much 06:55:05 what did you guys learn common lisp from? 06:55:29 minion: PCL? 06:55:29 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:55:40 thanks 06:55:55 zolk3ri: Practical Common Lisp, then PAIP 06:57:52 I like this community here 06:58:01 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-125-133.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:04 what community? 06:58:20 I love you guys, along with you, stassats` 06:58:25 lol 06:59:11 zolk3ri: we're not a community, were an anarchist federation. 06:59:17 even though sometimes I feel like you would throw a stone at me. well, I've been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic for a reason 06:59:20 (just kididng) 06:59:27 rock 06:59:29 I mean 06:59:42 zolk3ri: it's not paranoia if they are out to get you ;) 06:59:59 lol 07:00:23 for each "lol" message i will throw one stone 07:00:26 :P 07:01:19 do you guys sit all the day at the computer too? 07:02:05 zolk3ri: not necessarily, but it happens 07:02:52 I've spent my whole life in front of the computer, around 10~ years 07:02:57 and I'm 17.9 now 07:03:14 that explains some things! 07:03:22 elaborate stassats` 07:03:26 no 07:03:33 why not? 07:03:38 it's off-topic 07:03:44 zolk3ri: I go out for a smoke and a coffee refill every few hours. And this pesky university keeps makeing lectures mandatory. 07:06:39 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:56 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 07:13:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:16:55 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:19:34 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:01 -!- trigen_ is now known as trigen 07:26:18 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:26:52 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:27:57 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:39 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-230-173-253.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bed] 07:35:15 -!- jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has quit [] 07:35:45 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:39:05 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:44 Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:41:30 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42:08 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:02 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 07:43:03 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:40 chimay [~chimay@55.82-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 07:43:40 -!- chimay [~chimay@55.82-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 07:43:40 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 07:44:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-1-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:14 H4ns: oh no, i've found a security flow in your yesterday patch! 07:48:17 flaw 07:48:31 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 07:48:49 stassats`: not surprising, i've kind of felt that there may be problems. what did you find? 07:49:13 on windows, GET C:\sbclrc HTTP/1.1 gives me it! 07:49:31 didn't happen with the previous code 07:49:54 ah. right. i guess i should treat / and \\ equivalent when sanitizing the path 07:50:05 let me have a look. 07:50:11 well, GET C:/sbclrc HTTP/1.1 works as well 07:51:00 hm. 07:51:47 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:09 the previous code would call (make-pathname :direcotry '("C:")) and thus not fail, right? 07:52:24 i didn't test the previous version with this 07:52:32 lemme 07:53:26 right, it rejects C:/sbclrc 07:53:37 it rejects it? 07:53:46 well, 404 not found 07:53:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:54:19 jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has joined #lisp 07:54:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:55:55 i can't really see what it's doing, i don't have a full environment on windows 07:56:17 i'm going to check it out. 07:56:34 i tend to make the code reject pathnames having a host or device part 07:57:24 and i got another idea, let me see 07:57:30 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:06 bam, another one: GET ~/foo HTTP/1.1 07:58:32 ah, i have a better idea. 07:58:37 that's with linux 07:58:49 maybe just test that the path is not outside of the document-root? 07:58:52 the code should reject absolute pathnames 07:59:06 no, document-root is not relevant here, i'd say 08:02:23 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:37 maybe construct the pathname by splitting on / and doing (make-pathname :directory (list* :related (butlast split)) :name (car (last split))) ? 08:02:48 s/related/relative/ 08:03:36 because we haven't even touched logical pathnames yet 08:04:09 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-qjniyzttuempdjkq] has joined #lisp 08:06:13 how's this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131701 08:06:21 it seems to work for logical pathnames, too 08:07:07 still, i wouldn't trust the way PATHNAME interprets it 08:07:12 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:34 ok. then let me do it differently, hold on 08:08:36 maybe someone will run it on ancient Mac OS, with ":" separators 08:09:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.158] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.158] has quit [Changing host] 08:09:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 H4ns: by the way, cl-ppcre is a used package, so you can omit "cl-ppcre:" 08:12:48 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:15:57 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:03 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 08:17:58 brilliant. in sbcl: (MAKE-PATHNAME :DIRECTORY (:RELATIVE "" "foo") :NAME "barfoo" :TYPE NIL) => #P"/foo/barfoo" :D 08:19:02 (pathname-directory (MAKE-PATHNAME :DIRECTORY '(:RELATIVE "" "foo") :NAME "barfoo" :TYPE NIL)) => (:RELATIVE "" "foo") 08:19:38 as long as you don't use namestring to access it 08:20:05 and besides, aren't you regexes stripping such things? 08:20:27 ~ is not treated specially 08:20:39 what do you mean? 08:20:43 the real problem seems to be that there is no character whitelist. 08:21:41 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:42 well, if you stuff ~ as a directory component, it won't be treated as a homedir 08:22:02 yes, that's true. i was confused by the printed representation, sorry 08:23:25 maybe it is best to let the system parse the pathname and then make sure that the device is null and the directory is relative and contains no strings. 08:23:30 no keyword i mean 08:24:11 because otherwise it seems to be very easy to screw up in a way that passes a string to the lisp pathname parser which yields an illegal directory 08:26:03 illegal in what sense? as long as it doesn't err, it's good 08:26:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-159-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:26:10 right. hold on. 08:26:53 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131701#1 08:29:55 i think this is good - whatever checking is done, in the end the string will be converted to a pathname and that is where the problems could occur. 08:30:09 for completeness, pathname-host should be null, too. 08:31:07 this will also deal with logical pathnames properly (i.e. reject "sys:;foo") 08:32:21 ok, can you construct a complete request-pathname function with those amenities so that i can test it? 08:32:28 sure. 08:32:30 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131701#2 08:41:37 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.65] has joined #lisp 08:41:39 what if some one wants to name a file or directory "~"? 08:42:14 they'll not be able to access that file with hunchentoot 08:42:36 because it is an illegal pathname according to what the underlying lisp things. i can live with that 08:42:39 hmm, looks like i can't access anything anymore 08:42:42 thinKs 08:42:47 (test "/foo.lisp" "/") => NIL 08:42:50 oh? 08:43:01 let me try. i've not used your test function so far. 08:43:10 can you paste it again for me, please? 08:43:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131688#1 08:45:06 can't access anything means no security flaws 08:45:13 hm. that's the host field. 08:50:38 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 08:50:42 help for current quicklisp, please? 08:51:12 flip214: help for current quicklisp is only available in #current-quicklisp-help 08:51:18 The function CLSQL-UFFI:ATOL64 is undefined. 08:51:19 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131701#3 08:51:27 when loading clsql-postgresql 08:51:50 H4ns: sorry, too lonely there. no one able to answer. 08:52:51 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:53:16 (ql:quickload :clsql-uffi) to reproduce 08:54:07 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-125-133.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:54:21 hmm, on another box it works 08:57:03 with 1.0.58 it loads, with 1.0.57 it doesn't 08:59:14 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:00:04 ok, seems to be a 1.0.57 issue. thanks, H4ns ;) 09:00:08 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-150-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:17 hi wbooze 09:01:08 hi 09:01:44 flip214: any reason to use clsql for accessing postgres? 09:03:02 stassats`: because there's clsql-orm, that gave me a nice starting point for the class definitions (existing DB) 09:03:31 postmodern has an orm of sorts as well 09:03:55 terrific. lispworks on windows: (pathname-host *default-pathname-defaults*) => "C" 09:04:00 *facepalm* 09:04:28 H4ns: HOST? Shouldn't DEVICE be "C"? 09:04:40 loke_erc: it shouldn't 09:04:47 loke_erc: well, that was what i'd expected. 09:05:15 it's pathnames, you can expect to find a stuffed elephant inside 09:06:06 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 It's somewhat annoying that the Lisp abstract pathnames abstracts not-very-useful concepts such as HOST and VERSION, while not doing much to deal with things such as case sensititity. 09:07:34 I sense a need for a trivial-pathnames library 09:07:46 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 09:08:20 H4ns: and it's not comparable with eq, is it? 09:08:44 stassats`: certainly not 09:09:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131701#5 09:09:50 *sigh* 09:11:46 the paste is missing a paren 09:12:11 is (every #'stringp (rest directory)) to weed out :up? 09:12:45 stassats`: yes, the ORM is one part; having an existing DB easily useable is a plus, though 09:13:07 stassats`: yes. 09:13:23 i don't see how postmodern makes the db non-easily usable 09:15:13 H4ns: foiled! 09:15:15 GET /\.\./foo HTTP/1.1 09:16:45 (pathname-directory (test "/\\.\\./foo" "/")) => (:RELATIVE "..") 09:16:52 hm. 09:17:05 (probe-file (merge-pathnames (test "/\\.\\./foo" "/") #p"/tmp/")) => #P"/foo" 09:17:16 of course. 09:17:51 WHAT THE HECK 09:17:58 PATHNAMES 09:18:03 minion: chant 09:18:03 MORE THAN 09:18:57 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-244-215.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:19:05 so i guess the only effective way to filter out anything that might be wrong is to use truename? 09:19:17 not even that. 09:19:20 man, this sucks. 09:19:28 truename fill signal an error 09:19:33 will 09:19:36 may 09:19:40 ok. so character whitelist. 09:19:58 i see no other way 09:21:20 well, or maybe if i just blacklist #\\, assuming that it is the only character that any lisp would ever use for quoting 09:23:03 or quote it some more 09:23:05 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 09:23:09 \\ => \\\\ 09:23:17 bound to fail on some other lisp, though 09:23:27 yeah. i'll remove backslashes. 09:23:43 for fuck's sake. 09:25:07 i need to blow off some steam now. meanwhile http://paste.lisp.org/display/131701#6 09:31:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 09:38:01 H4ns: not really a security flaw: http://localhost:4242/%00 => parse error in namestring: can't embed #\Nul or #\/ in Unix namestring 09:40:17 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:26 *maxm* waits until H4ns discovers GET /COM1 09:40:42 unless special device names disappeared sometime around windows 7 09:41:58 maxm: GET \\Device\COM1:\ etc. might do the trick, too 09:42:38 moral of the story: don't use hunchentoot for serving static files 09:42:54 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 09:43:05 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 09:44:45 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:46:22 H4ns: i propose to disallow 00-31 characters 09:52:29 (hello 'world) 09:52:59 snearch [~snearch@f053006044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:41 For some reason, sdl:draw-string-solid-* throws error like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131702#1 09:54:52 Seems like the wrong set of arguments. 09:55:33 stassats`: i'll leave it at that for now. 09:55:59 stassats`: i do agree about the sentiment regarding static files. kind of unsatisfying, though. 09:56:43 just run (every #'graphic-char-p string) on it 09:59:05 done & pushed. 09:59:28 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:59:42 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:04:20 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.163.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:53 i think handle-static-file should optionally verify the truename of the file that it is going to serve. that could be used to restrict files served to be under the document-root directory. 10:07:33 didi`: (SDL:DRAW-STRING-SOLID-* STRING X Y &KEY (JUSTIFY LEFT) (SURFACE *DEFAULT-SURFACE*) (FONT *DEFAULT-FONT*) (COLOR *DEFAULT-COLOR*)) ; arguments seems to be okay, no? 10:09:27 foreignFunction: For `draw-string-solid-*' yes, but the problem is with `_draw-string-solid-*_' 10:10:00 The first is a `defun', but the latter is a method. 10:10:43 Hooh. So it means it's something wrong with lispbuilder? /___\ 10:11:36 I don't know. Maybe you are passing something that the first defun accepts but there is no method to be applicable. 10:12:55 I'm just reading the source. I've never saw this library before. 10:16:13 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:17:31 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-244-215.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 10:18:41 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:23:18 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:24:50 ice_ [~ice@123.114.42.36] has joined #lisp 10:26:11 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 10:29:21 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:41 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:32:12 -!- adeht [void@flash.ignite.lol.vc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:33 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:38:22 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:41:58 adeht [void@flash.ignite.lol.vc] has joined #lisp 10:45:56 -!- Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:40 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:48:40 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:49:22 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 10:50:26 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:52:13 what does one use to return the adress of some object in memory in lisp ? 10:52:43 Nothing. 10:52:56 There's no such concept as "address" in lisp. 10:53:28 what does cffi-sys:pointer-address do then ? 10:53:41 The "c" in "cffi" means C. 10:53:46 wbooze: sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address 10:53:48 There's a concept of address in C, but not in lisp. 10:53:55 ah 10:54:14 C addresses are either represented as opaque lisp types, or as integers. 10:54:28 But they're addresses of C objects, not of lisp objects. 10:54:38 oh 10:54:46 so i would get a type error 10:54:57 ok 10:55:26 thank you stassats i'll try that 10:55:47 But it's impropriately and indecently implementation dependant! 10:56:00 wbooze: why do you want the object's address in memory? 10:56:03 wbooze: why do you even need it? 10:56:19 foreignFunction: draw-string-solid-* expects a font but you have passed it a font-definition (I'm not experienced with sdl to tell you the right solution, but your spyrograph is neat) 10:56:34 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56:40 and probably invalid as soon as you get it (or as soon as a garbage collection occurs, whichever last). 10:58:24 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:58:56 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:03:11 stassats: i was just doing the locks examples of keene's oop code, and found the sys:%pointer function mentioned there which is to be found nowhere and i had no idea what could replace it 11:03:24 that's why 11:03:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:03:32 vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-120-145-201-24.lnse2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:04:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:04:17 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 11:04:37 it's just used for printing 11:04:43 clhs p-u-o 11:04:43 print-unreadable-object: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 11:06:04 wbooze: The sys package qualifier is a good clue that it's implementation dependent. 11:06:26 it even states in the text what it's for 11:07:15 print-unreadable-object was added to CL before the book was written 11:08:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131702#2 it was that simple, wooh. Thanks, guys \(^w^)/ 11:09:00 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:03 mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:53 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:14:46 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-120-145-201-24.lnse2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: vmmenon] 11:17:30 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:17:31 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:19:38 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:23:38 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:24:53 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:11 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 11:25:43 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 11:26:35 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:28 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:28:14 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 11:28:24 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.239] has joined #lisp 11:28:38 vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-120-145-201-24.lnse2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:28:53 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:33 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-120-145-201-24.lnse2.pie.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 11:34:58 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 11:34:58 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 11:34:58 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 11:35:00 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-150-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 11:39:06 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-150-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:21 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-213-34.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:29 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-1-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:45:50 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 11:51:44 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:52 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:51:57 hey friendz 11:52:52 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 11:54:35 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:56:45 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:58:35 Adeon [juolam1@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has joined #lisp 11:58:41 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 11:58:42 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 11:58:42 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 12:07:11 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053006044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:07:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-123-15.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:33 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 12:07:35 Hey guys. 12:07:44 Any chance anyone knows of where I can get a printed copy of the CL spec? 12:07:55 Or, at least, a version of the HyperSpec that I can use on an eBook reader. 12:08:02 Have to investigate HTML to Mobi that doesn't suck. 12:08:05 or HTML to ePub. 12:08:07 That also doesn't suck. 12:09:17 elderK: whatever you do, don't order it from ANSI. You'll get a bad scan of an old copy. 12:09:40 Yeah, the electronic version is shit. I saw many write-ups about it. 12:10:10 Every HTML->ePub/Mobi convertor I've tried just... botches everything up. None of the links work so the HyperSpec ends up useless and the device is shit for PDF viewing. 12:10:59 elderK: CLtL2 may be good enough for your purposes. 12:11:08 Aye. 12:11:17 I've been looking at CLtL2 on Amazon. 12:11:26 I believe there's an info conversion of the spec 12:11:34 Yeah, I saw that. 12:11:37 that might be reasonable as a starting point 12:12:07 natschil [~nathanael@stgt-5f70a450.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:17 CLHS is in so simple html, that it could be converted easily 12:12:29 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.86.84] has joined #lisp 12:12:31 I'll try a few more times. 12:12:50 It's very frustrating. As I go to bed at night, I usually do a bunch of reading on a bunch of stuff, lately, it's been CLtL2 and the HyperSpec. 12:12:57 Or other Lisp books, more introductory. 12:13:12 Having a laptop on my lap is much less comfortable in bed, especially as I have horrible eyesight. 12:13:24 Although the browser's ability to blow up text is FANTASTIC. 12:13:40 I think there were some postscript files of the spec floating around. 12:14:00 Aye. 12:14:06 Although they are half-page. 12:14:10 I have the DVIs of them. 12:14:13 I just have to convert them into PS. 12:14:16 -!- natschil [~nathanael@stgt-5f70a450.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 12:14:18 Hopefully with a generated index. 12:14:25 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.86.84] has left #lisp 12:14:50 I'm not familiar with TeX so I'm unsure of how to translate. dvitohtml or something near that name is what I need. Apparently MiKTeX or something comes with it. 12:15:12 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 12:17:20 I'm sure I've seen a mobi copy of dpans floating around 12:20:14 or maybe I'm thinking of the pdf at ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/misc/symbolic/lisp/dpANS3/book.pdf 12:20:21 not great for ebook readers 12:21:42 No :( 12:21:44 I don't get it. 12:21:45 you need the latex/tex sources of that document and use makeinfo on the commandline to generate info docs 12:21:55 and copy that to /usr/share/info/ or so 12:22:02 I remember using Acrobat on a 166MHz machine... 12:22:11 It wasn't super fast but it was pretty snappy and I only had 32MiB of RAM. 12:22:14 Pentium I 12:22:25 Where as the Kobo has a 700MHz processor, ARM I believe. 12:22:28 I don't know how much RAM. 12:22:36 But it's PDF reader is slow as hell. 12:22:46 Granted, PDF has got far more complex but still... basic reading... 12:22:55 Also, thanks guys. 12:23:22 presumably it reflows it, which is non-trivial 12:23:29 Aye. 12:23:38 Kobo doesn't reflow. It expects you to draw around to navigate within the page. 12:23:42 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:23:43 And that is seriously slow 12:26:12 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-123-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:45 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:30:39 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:30:54 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 12:37:30 seabass [~seabass@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:07 -!- wuehli [~wuehlmaus@freeshell.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:50:34 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:39 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:52:04 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:52:39 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-209-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:53:16 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f701182.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:50 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 12:55:30 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:04:21 elderK: iPad (or any other tablet, I'd guess) are quite nice to read in bed. iPad better than Kindle, given that it has light, so you can read in the dark. 13:05:13 On the other hand, I've not found any program on the iPad able to deal easily with 16 GB of PDFs. 13:05:31 pjb: I've read that the tablets with background lights can bring your body clock out-of-sync; the recommendation was passive displays, ie. kindle ;) 13:05:36 The lack of a hierarchical file system is a big design error. 13:05:47 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:05:56 flip214: well, then when it's night it's night, go to bed without reading! 13:06:07 Any artificial light will be bad for your clock. 13:06:24 I guess the difference is "a bit of reflected light" vs. "light shining directly into the eyes" 13:06:37 No, it doesn't matter where the light comes from. 13:09:40 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09:44 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:22 pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.105.35] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:20:18 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-142-152.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:33 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-405-208.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:24:26 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:26:20 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:30 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:26:36 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 13:28:07 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:24 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:35:04 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:35:04 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.212] has joined #lisp 13:38:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 13:42:08 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:46:10 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.105.35] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:48:42 pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-105-35.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:52:45 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-150-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 13:54:12 here` [~user@183.49.47.147] has joined #lisp 13:57:25 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:49 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:26 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:59:34 pjb: problem is, is that the iPad does considerably more than I need and is far more than I can afford. 13:59:36 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:01:24 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:04:12 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 14:04:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-213-34.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:06:29 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 14:07:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:09:23 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:10:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:11:15 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-209-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:38 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:13:46 -!- ice_ [~ice@123.114.42.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:15:45 ice_ [~ice@222.130.133.153] has joined #lisp 14:15:48 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:16:46 -!- here` [~user@183.49.47.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:04 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-296-173.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-142-152.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:23 ambot [~user@nv-74-4-136-73.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:35 Is it common to use a ~/.my-application file the same way Emacs uses ~/.emacs? Like a loadable file. 14:20:34 lisp applications are not common 14:20:55 oic 14:21:31 phrixos [U2FsdGVkX1@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 14:21:45 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:19 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:21 i myself don't like the idea of loadable files and use files with plists in them 14:24:06 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:32:24 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:41 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 Hum, using a loadable file as a way of configuring and managing data adds the complexity of having to scan it looking for symbols. Not only to read them but also to edit. Seems complex. 14:34:47 didi`: the point of using a loadable file is that it is easy, not complex. 14:35:10 didi`: basically, just put in a few (setf ...) forms, load the file, done. 14:35:29 didi`: i agree that plists are better though, and only marginally more complicated to read. 14:36:08 howeyc [~howeyc@199.229.255.169] has joined #lisp 14:36:12 H4ns: But imagine I have *data*, which I generate during the application execution. Now, when closing it, I have to scan the loadable file and update that. 14:36:47 didi`: ah. i thought that you talk about configuration files 14:36:49 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 14:36:54 H4ns: Both, actually. 14:37:18 didi`: if you need to save data to files, why not write out all data instead of trying to update an existing file? 14:37:25 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:37:28 True. 14:37:30 that's what i do 14:37:50 i need to abstract away my configuration handling, i have it copied all over the place 14:42:03 hrm, making an array adjustable or even with a fill-pointer is apparently a few orders of magnitude slower than without 14:42:55 (sbcl, of course) 14:44:32 still, when it's useful, it's useful 14:44:45 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:46:43 hi xach 14:47:05 Hi zolk3ri 14:47:43 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 14:48:49 I still remember you 14:48:53 mate 14:49:03 :D 14:49:22 Xach is memorable. 14:49:24 Ok! 14:50:00 lol 14:50:05 from last night* 14:50:11 forgot to add 14:50:18 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.86.84] has joined #lisp 14:50:22 nah, it's been a year or two 14:50:28 since the last time we've talked 14:50:30 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:50:35 Let us talk more of Lisp 14:51:01 ur more interesting 14:51:55 oGMo: what kind of operations are you doing on it? 14:52:23 if you do a lot of accessing in a single place, you can get a simple array out if it with sb-kernel:with-array-data 14:54:07 stassats`: none. i'm talking actually just creating it. 14:54:24 how do you measure it? 14:54:59 a simple defun with the make-array with the desired parameters, and a (time (dotimes ... 14:55:09 can you paste it? 14:55:12 yeah 14:56:49 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f701182.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 14:57:48 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:31 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131704 15:01:35 these times seem to reflect the difference i'm seeing in outputting to a string (via with-output-to-string) or a vector of (unsigned-byte 8) with vector-push-extend 15:02:37 that is, the time spent by the actual output mechanism is dwarfed by the time taken by make-array vs make-string (or any simpler make-array) 15:02:44 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:04 nanoc [~conanhome@mail.openminds.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:04:25 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:38 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:07:16 ok, that's because make-array is not inlined and needs to do keyword parsing each time it's called 15:07:42 and all other things 15:07:53 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2a01:4f8:161:323::fedf:1234] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:07:53 -!- ice_ [~ice@222.130.133.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:09:31 ice [~ice@222.130.129.113] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 and most of the time is spent parsing (unsigned-byte 8) 15:12:32 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:12:39 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.210] has joined #lisp 15:12:49 and that's because sb-impl::%vector-widetag-and-n-bits is slow 15:13:27 ah that explains all the additional consing heh 15:13:42 lp 902533 15:13:42 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/902533 15:13:47 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:09 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@mail.openminds.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:14:25 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:02 it could be both made faster and not called if it's known at CT for all cases, not just for simple arrays 15:16:49 i'm leaning towards the latter 15:16:58 (but don't expect it any time soon) 15:17:02 that would be nice .. doing some packed communication stuff and was surprised that cl-json was far faster 15:17:23 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:58 yeah i'll probably just write a workaround buffered-output system that uses fixed buffers and emulates adjusting arrays etc .. will probably be faster on most implementations anyway 15:18:02 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:18:31 paul0 [~paul0@177.41.243.115] has joined #lisp 15:19:05 (assuming one doesn't exist, but i haven't seen anything like that) 15:19:49 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:11 wine wine wine 15:21:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:24:24 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:57 benny [~user@i577A8A19.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:53 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:27:42 -!- leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:28:35 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@201.230.213.236] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 15:30:59 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:31:44 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:33:00 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:33:00 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 15:33:18 didi: if you let the users of your application program it, either with CL or with a DSL, then you can use LOAD to load the rc file (run commands). 15:33:41 didi: on the other hand, if there's no way for the user to "program" your application, then it would be better that the configuration files be purely data. 15:33:50 nanoc [~conanhome@mail.openminds.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:34:41 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-115-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:34:57 Now, given Steve Yegge's Features, I'd favor rc files loaded with LOAD, and programmable applications. 15:35:00 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:37:00 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B79B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:38:26 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.58.192] has joined #lisp 15:40:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.58.192] has quit [Changing host] 15:40:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 Oh well, I think I'll start with the plist. 15:48:28 -!- Ralith 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iLogical [~iLogical@177.16.187.137] has joined #lisp 16:20:07 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:27 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 wuehli [~wuehlmaus@freeshell.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 Bike [~Glossina@63-230-173-253.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:03 -!- jockc [~jockc@208.88.132.251] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:57 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-014-192.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:32:48 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:35:00 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:36:00 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:07 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:31 Is there some significance writing function names starting with `%' like in (defun %foo ...)? 16:37:33 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.234] has joined #lisp 16:37:51 didi: it means "internal" or "dangerous" 16:38:00 didi: cl attaches no meaning to it. 16:38:08 H4ns: Thanks. 16:38:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:10 to just humans or to the compiler/interpreter too ? 16:38:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:20 ah 16:38:49 internal wrt what ? 16:39:00 ok dangerous is clear but the other not so much for me 16:39:04 wbooze: to whatever the programmer thinks. 16:39:15 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:15 ah ok 16:39:36 wbooze: i sometimes use :reader foo :accessor foo% in classes, when i want to export only the reader 16:40:27 another example is a custom constructor function as the official make-foo frontend, with the real internal constructor %make-foo, etc 16:40:30 oh 16:40:49 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:50 you can use both :reader and :accessor at the same time, didn't expect that ok 16:41:26 You can also have more than one of each, e.g. :reader last-name :reader print-object-details 16:41:45 aaah 16:43:14 and which one is called depends on the object-type i assume then ?! 16:43:19 or wth 16:43:36 no wait slot-type ? 16:43:38 wbooze: which one is called depends on the name you use at the start of a function form. 16:43:39 Xach: odd example of names for the reader functions :) 16:43:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:53 *methods 16:44:06 if you write (last-name object) it will call last-name 16:44:14 ok never seen an example of that 16:44:26 wbooze: do you read lisptips.com? 16:44:32 i mean multiple readers 16:44:40 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:44:41 from time to time 16:45:58 so would it generate specialized gf's and methods then ? 16:46:18 wbooze: it will generate a method and, if necessary, a generic function. 16:46:20 for the readers ? 16:46:27 ok 16:46:40 wbooze: readers are methods (and thus have a generic function) 16:46:54 or better, belong to a generic function 16:47:06 yes yes i know, but having multiples of them is confusing me 16:47:35 one could be deprecated compatibility 16:48:15 wbooze: think about what will happen if you add the first :reader. then think what will happen if you add the second :reader. combine both of them (they don't influence each other) and you have what the two :reader options do together. 16:48:57 wbooze: are you also confused by the existence of CAR and FIRST? 16:49:07 i'm already having trouble understanding the dispatch-mechanism 16:49:11 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:49:17 Xach: no 16:49:27 This is a similar idea. It is two different names for the same thing. 16:49:42 are you confused by Zach and Xach? 16:49:43 Xach: car stands for how it does, first for what it does 16:50:21 ah 16:50:40 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-203-66-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:50:43 Now, there are several reasons WHY you might want to do it in the slot context. 16:54:26 do you have an article/blog about that ? 16:55:03 Not yet. 16:55:08 lisptips.com will have something soon 16:55:17 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:33 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:55:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:55:50 ok thanky you, i'll be back later and have a look there 16:55:58 sitecopy | ircsend irc://lisptips@irc.freenode.org/#lisp 16:56:07 The general idea, though, is that if you have a protocol that has some generic operations, you can have an object participate by adding readers (or accessors) that add methods to that protocol's GFs, in addition to the "normal" readers/accessors 16:56:47 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:57:22 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-105-35.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:59:22 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:37 zmyrgel` [~user@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:03:39 -!- zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:44 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 17:05:31 certainly it's a good idea collect many tips in a restricted dedicated space. 17:06:43 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:07:45 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:47 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 17:09:08 lisp-tips-and-tricks ! would be too long but sounds good :) 17:09:40 http://lisptips.com is shorter. 17:10:21 tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:31 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:11:39 rmsrdf -h 17:12:05 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:12:33 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5cf9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:15:10 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:15:41 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:21:38 Xach: is there a recommended way to use buildapp with quicklisp? specifically I'd like to distribute an app in such a way that a user with buildapp and quicklisp installed can just type make and get a binary 17:22:19 I'm doing: buildapp --eval '(load (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname)))' ... atm 17:22:40 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:23:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-014-192.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:24:27 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.210] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 17:25:02 df_: I usually do two passes of the build. the first time through it fetches all the needed libraries and writes out a manifest file. the second time it uses the manifest file to find the fetched libraries directly without quicklisp being loaded. 17:25:17 I'll find an example makefile for you 17:27:09 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:27:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131706 17:27:42 these days, i would modify it slightly to use --non-interactive instead of --disable-debugger + (sb-ext:quit) 17:27:57 and probably have some way to use a different quicklisp directory 17:28:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:42 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:09 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 great, thanks - didn't know about the asdf manifest feature of either system 17:30:37 I added that because you can't simply just use --asdf-tree ~/quicklisp 17:30:44 There are redundant and conflicting .asd files in there 17:31:04 eldar [~CLD@pppoe-193-177-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:31:59 lisp/ is presumably where the app's .asd file lives? 17:33:07 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:33:12 yes 17:33:43 cheers 17:33:48 I wouldn't endorse this as The Best Way, it's the first way I've thought of so far. 17:34:49 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-203-66-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:03 vaguely related, what's the reasoning behind this? https://github.com/ahefner/shuffletron/blob/master/build-sbcl.lisp#L5 17:35:18 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:37:12 df_: ASDF loads .asd files in an augmented environment that a plain LOAD does not replicate. 17:37:22 df_: If plain LOAD works, it's by coincidence, not design. 17:37:35 paolo_m [~user@adsl-ull-152-195.49-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:37:59 ok, thanks 17:40:40 nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p57AD7678.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:25 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:30 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:43:32 perhaps asdf should have a load a particular asd file? 17:43:41 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:52 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:56 seems like it would be useful 17:44:03 find-system does that, no? 17:44:33 antifuchs: it loads a system, not a particular asd file 17:44:44 well, there's that. 17:46:39 *Xach* slaps forehead deeply 17:46:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:47:11 whack-a-mole time with asdf 2.23 dependencies. asdf-utils is "fixed" but xcvb-utils still requires bleeding-edge asdf. 17:50:24 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-250.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:50:38 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.129.113] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:51:27 who needs xcvb? 17:51:41 ehu: Fare! 17:51:50 stassats`: right, but anybody else? 17:51:56 ehu: it's in the dependency chain of weblocks 17:52:00 (fare can manage his dependencies, I assume...) 17:52:03 really? 17:52:04 wow. 17:52:08 what doesn't weblocks depend on? 17:52:12 via, i think, fare-utils 17:52:17 i guess it doesn't depend on weblocks 17:52:25 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 17:53:08 or maybe not 17:53:14 fare-matcher perhaps 17:53:30 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:55:37 *Xach* emails fare about it 17:56:52 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 17:57:02 what's the general opinion on weblocks? All I know is it's a web framework and can do continuations. How does it compare with raw hunchentoot or restas? 17:59:04 the general opinion on web-frameworks is "roll your own" 18:00:48 -!- eldar [~CLD@pppoe-193-177-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 18:00:52 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-193-177-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:17 asvil [~asvil@178.120.85.57] has joined #lisp 18:04:35 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-qjniyzttuempdjkq] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:06:29 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:08:55 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 18:11:15 Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has joined #lisp 18:12:46 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:24 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:16:10 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:34 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.41.243.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:48 I think they're almost all good works.. many times - I suppose - it's just a matter of personal preferences, derived from particular habits or from needs. 18:16:58 paul0 [~paul0@177.41.243.115] has joined #lisp 18:20:34 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:13 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:25 can loop collect into a vector? 18:22:34 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:56 df_: no 18:23:47 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:47 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 18:25:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:30:35 df_: use your own loop and vector-push-extend 18:31:15 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:41 if you know the size beforehand, don't use vector-push-extend 18:36:29 df_ iterate can 18:38:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:38:32 fe[nl]ix: therep? 18:40:45 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:22 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:42:30 -!- nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p57AD7678.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:42:49 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:03 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:45:47 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:45:57 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:46:12 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 18:46:22 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:47:11 SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:19 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9-rc1] 18:48:05 rpg: yes 18:48:28 I was wondering if you had seen my proposed FiveAM patch... 18:48:28 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 Got lost to moderation. I'll send to you directly. 18:49:15 Is cddr.org still right? 18:49:47 better send it to the mailing list 18:51:43 will do. But if moderation doesn't happen, does subscribing happen? 18:51:46 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:53 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 18:52:30 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:37 ah. automated. OK. 18:56:11 fe[nl]ix: OK, passed it through. thx 18:57:01 thanks, I'll take a look at it later today 18:57:58 fe[nl]ix: I found it helpful to widen the API a little in order to use FiveAM inside ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM 18:58:27 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:52 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:00:02 I have a small ASDF add-on that I needed to ship in order to be able to ship the tested system... 19:00:18 rpg: hi! 19:00:55 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:18 Fare: Hi. I was just testing a library on clisp, and am awed all the more that you managed to get ASDF to work there. 19:02:48 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.85.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:04:03 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:02 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:12:07 hehe 19:14:04 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:09 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:14:15 Fare: now i can bug you realtime about xcvb-utils! 19:14:17 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:14:17 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:16:16 panelpenv: weblocks seems fine, but I am typically struggling to understand the structure. I think it is more lack of documentation than anything else. 19:16:35 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:25 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:17:45 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:17:45 -!- Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:20:32 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.157] has joined #lisp 19:22:57 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:24:32 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:11 -!- PuercoPop420 [~PuercoPop@201.230.213.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:31:24 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:32:23 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good night/dobranoc] 19:34:07 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:53 blast 19:36:34 hush 19:36:47 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 19:37:14 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 PuercoPop420 [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 19:45:14 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:09 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:35 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 19:58:33 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 20:00:45 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.155] has joined #lisp 20:02:47 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-224-63.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:59 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-246-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:16 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:07:48 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:10:00 sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 20:10:26 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:47 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 20:13:05 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.234] has joined #lisp 20:15:59 -!- ambot [~user@nv-74-4-136-73.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:54 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:12 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:20:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:24 -!- paolo_m [~user@adsl-ull-152-195.49-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 20:20:25 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 20:20:38 ikki [~ikki@189.195.18.86] has joined #lisp 20:20:52 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-194-4.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:17 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-125-133.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:49 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:44 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:15 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 20:26:40 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:25 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-72-218.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:20 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-209-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:30:21 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 20:30:51 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 20:32:43 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 20:39:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:39:40 Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has joined #lisp 20:41:16 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:44:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-196-252.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:46:33 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:46:45 evening 20:47:40 evening nikodemus :) 20:47:43 Good to see ya. 20:48:33 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-150-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:48:36 good to find time to stop by :) 20:49:07 What's your new job, if you don't mind? 20:49:09 how're things? 20:49:24 http://www.zenrobotics.com/ 20:50:00 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 20:50:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:50:21 it's fascinating 20:50:41 Nice! Been busy hacking. Just got hired to write clojure but need to find time to emulate NES memory mappers in CL. :) 20:51:05 Also, maybe to add proper Clojure support to colorize now that it powers my blog. :P 20:51:08 hah 20:52:06 today i've been adjusting lasers and writing code to deal with spectrometer data -- in java. some days it's clojure, some days it's c++. some days octave :) 20:52:32 But hey, lasers. Can't ever complain about that. 20:52:39 exactly :) 20:54:19 -!- ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:54:31 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 20:54:43 i'm starting to really like jvm, but clojure isn't growing on me yet 20:55:48 nikodemus: what do you like about the jvm? 20:55:50 Really? I've just been digging in and haven't formed many conclusions. 20:56:01 nikodemus: don't you feel like you're bloviating when you're writing java? :) 20:56:07 nikodemus: perhaps more importantly, what do you dislike about clojure? :) 20:57:21 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-193-177-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:57:38 50% hold PhD! 20:57:43 jvm: very good at hiding most of linux / windows differences. rock solid. a fairly nice threading api. there is a library for everything 20:58:40 re: zenrobotics.com -- interesting idea. 20:58:45 java: nothing new there. less painful than c/c++ to write nice code in, more painful to write fast code in. 20:59:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.18.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:59:35 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:00:23 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-186-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:10 lasers... but are you going to equip sharks? 21:01:29 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:46 clojure: performance is nothing to write home about. type hints aren't checked, and if they're wrong you get (eg.) a null pointer error when trying to call a method. objects are huge and expensive. widespread laziness in the presence of side-effects 21:01:48 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:03:14 it's lisp1, which i really hate 21:03:26 there's stuff i like too, though. using [] for bindings is actually pretty nice and consistent, don't love it, but don't mind it either. java interfacing is very nice. there are several nice bits and pieces 21:03:57 You really hate lisp1 due to shadowing/name collisions, I presume? 21:04:04 but compiler error messages /really/ need some love -- but i know how bothersome they can be to get right... 21:04:07 yes 21:04:10 mm 21:05:24 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:06:12 (let [keys ...] (foo keys)) ; then you edit the code and rename the binding to table-columns, and wonder why the code breaks but the compiler isn't complaining about it 21:07:14 there are way more global functions than global variables. there are way more local variables than local functions. distinct namespaces might not be theoretically pretty, but it really cuts down on stupid bugs 21:07:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-250.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:08:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:43 re. nice stuff. i like a lot of the sequence things, but i don't like the way laziness is incorporated 21:09:56 lol 21:10:08 mt 21:10:44 eg. i don't like that functions that realize lazy sequences also process non-lazy sequences. it's too easy to write something that unintentionally makes your code non-lazy. eg, i would like count to signal an error for a lazy sequence 21:11:04 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 21:11:20 Yeah, I got concerned about that yesterday some. 21:11:22 it's also too easy to unintentionally make something lazy when refactoring 21:12:06 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:37 i like multiple defn bodies with different number of arguments 21:12:57 i like the metadata in principle, but not in all details 21:13:26 (too easy to lose it when writing a macro) 21:13:42 but would you rather have &rest, &optional, &key, or multiple defn bodies? 21:14:51 i'd rather have defun take multiple bodies in addition to supporting &rest and friends :) 21:15:01 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:16:00 well clojure has & for at rest doesn't it? 21:16:18 And &key args too. 21:16:29 But...it has a distinctively different feel, definitely. 21:16:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:41 sort of. it's non-terrible, but you have to check for unknown keys manually 21:16:50 which is another source of bugs 21:17:11 rename a keyword, miss a call site, introduce a silent bug 21:19:04 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:20:06 still, while i reserve the right to bitch about clojure, i fullheartedly applaud rich's efforts: we need more new serious lisps, and clojure is one (newlisp and arc don't count) 21:20:28 i'd love to see someone implement a realtime lisp 21:22:22 hm. does arc even still exist? 21:22:36 what do you mean, "exist"? 21:23:09 Is its development faster or slower than that of common lisp implementations? :) 21:23:22 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-250.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:26:59 bedtime for me -- good night 21:27:01 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-196-252.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:44 I updated my categorized CL tweets collection at http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/tweets/ and submitted it to reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/zo8lo/hexstreamsoft_tweets_about_common_lisp_organised/ 21:28:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-250.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:01 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:09 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 21:30:17 foom: so far as I know, apart from the racket implementation done by eli barzilay, there's not much development of arc. 21:30:42 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has joined #lisp 21:30:45 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:54 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:01 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:19 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-250.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:38:34 Hexstream, maybe you should put the metadata in a smaller font 21:38:44 it's really hampering the legibility 21:38:46 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:39:12 Fare: Yeah, I should streamline things. Working on my site is not as fun as it could be since I still do everything by hand. 21:40:23 you mean, html by hand? 21:40:29 Fare: Right. 21:40:34 not even using some sexp-based abstraction??? 21:40:41 I've been whining for years about "I should finally get around to cleaning up my old dynamic web framework". It seems I'm finally starting to actually ship things, so I might actually get around to it "soon". 21:40:58 I used to write all my sites with exscribe... it was great 21:41:12 now I'm slowly moving towards racket's scribble 21:41:24 same general principle, but has a community of more than 1 21:41:29 I already have my own awesome s-expressions HTML syntax in my old dynamic web framework. I'm not interested in trying other syntaxes. 21:41:45 does you syntax allow for abstraction? 21:41:55 i.e. defining functions to manipulate stuff 21:42:08 do these abstractions allow for footnotes? 21:42:42 my principal case for using scribe (by serrano, in bigloo scheme) then exscribe (by me, in CL), was footnotes. 21:42:44 why do methods names from a package cause the gf to be interned in the common-lisp user package ! 21:42:46 ? 21:42:48 and table-of-contents 21:42:49 Fare: Yeah, well, actually, it's better than that. More than "abstraction", it allows "automation". Basically I wrote HTML "directly" in s-expressions "by hand", BUT THEN my framework would fill in details and rewrite stuff. 21:42:50 zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-65-220-212.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 i got a name clash unless i used :shadow 21:43:18 wbooze: use anonymous symbols in your package definition 21:43:21 wbooze: #:foo 21:43:26 not because of the names of the methods but because of the name of the gf which got interned there 21:43:34 hmmmmm 21:43:42 wbooze: did you (use-package ...) from cl-user? 21:43:54 no my package def is ok 21:44:03 did you ever use use-package? 21:44:09 i did use (:use :common-lisp) 21:44:11 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:44:13 are you in-package correctly? 21:44:17 yes 21:44:25 which gf name is that? 21:44:31 (in-package :locks) 21:44:40 describe! 21:44:46 bang included? 21:44:50 Fare: I had a pretty damn advanced dynamic web framework with things such as generation of navigation stuff like breadcrumbs and sidebars from a semantic representation with multiple possible "axes", like a page could be part of 2 orthogonal hierarchies and both nav sidebars would appear. 21:44:51 it's i have defined methods for describe 21:44:57 no no bang 21:45:11 cl:describe is already a defined CL symbol that you're forbidden from redefining. Indeed you may shadow it. 21:45:22 ok 21:45:22 danlentz [~danlentz@c-76-117-5-156.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 just wondered 21:45:30 And crucially, a "page-variants" system where I could notate several optimized variants of one page in one shot, the variants depending on access level of the user and stuff. 21:47:24 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-115-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 21:47:45 ok, ok 21:47:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:17 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-194-4.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:48:26 so it should be trivial to change the style of those signatures to make them not stand in the way " Jean-PhilippeParadis (@HexstreamSoft) July 20, 2012" 21:49:10 Fare: Here's an example of my HTML syntax: https://github.com/Hexstream/bahagontools/blob/master/web/page/main/static.lisp 21:49:13 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:21 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:50 Fare: Wait, you're not getting the improved JS version of the tweets 21:49:52 ? 21:50:46 good day, commonlisp commons! 21:51:01 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:51:38 indeed, notscripts was disabling js 21:53:55 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:55:55 looks fine after I enable it. Not-so-gracious fallback. 21:56:06 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 21:56:55 Fare: My CSS syntax was also nice: https://github.com/Hexstream/bahagontools/blob/master/web/page/main/css.lisp 21:57:06 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:58:00 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:32 *ski* idly wonders whether Hexstream worked any further on "Implementation of PRINT-XAPPING with my FORMAT replacement concept" at 22:01:49 ski: Well, I've been reading Lisp in Small Pieces in preparation for my (re)implementation of Flexiconf, which I'll use to document all FORMAT features, which I'll use as inspiration for my "lispy-format" thing. So in a way I've been working on it. You might want to follow https://github.com/Hexstream/lispy-format 22:02:39 were you guys working on a cm-lisp? 22:03:00 What's a "cm-lisp"? 22:03:08 connection machine lisp 22:03:19 I just saw the 'xapping' symbol in that paste. 22:03:39 "xapping" is just the classic example of an hairy FORMAT expression. 22:03:47 Hexstream: the link http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/projects/lispy-format/ in your README 404 22:03:57 (Hexstream : fyi, on that page seems broken) 22:04:24 Oh yeah, I really need to remove links that don't actually exist. 22:04:58 Up until not too long ago I was still in the "I'm working in obscurity, nobody cares about my stuff and I'll finish these things soon enough anyway" mentality. 22:05:55 Ok, I'll scour my Github projects for "fake links" to "future" project homepages. It's not the first time it confuses people... 22:05:55 well, you should take your time, don't feel rushed 22:06:47 My last commit on lispy-format is on april 17. So I haven't been working on it for some time. 22:07:43 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:07:51 -!- eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:07:54 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:09:44 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:13:25 antgreen [~user@75.98.19.132] has joined #lisp 22:13:46 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 22:15:10 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-123-15.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:15:25 -!- seabass [~seabass@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: I do believe it's beer o'clock.] 22:15:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 22:16:09 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:23:37 Hexstream, there have been enough lispy format reimplementations as is 22:23:41 why yet another one? 22:23:42 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:25:48 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:28:05 -!- poindontcare [~user@c-50-131-221-119.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:29:40 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-125-133.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 22:30:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30:23 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:28 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:34:06 postfuturist [~sgoss@chirashi.kavi.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:50 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:57 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:37:25 Hexstream: have you looked at Drew McDermott's lispy format replacement? 22:39:47 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:36 *Fare* still requests help with lil 22:44:20 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:44:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:23 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:50:17 Hexstream is the kind of nih! \o/ 22:52:51 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-034.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:53:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:23 -!- postfuturist [~sgoss@chirashi.kavi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:30 ikki [~ikki@189.247.231.239] has joined #lisp 22:55:30 -!- Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 23:01:31 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 23:05:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:52 rpg: Yes, and it's definitely not something I could use and thoroughly enjoy for the next 10 years without ever wishing for something better. 23:07:25 Hexstream: useful nuggets of code to plunder? 23:07:46 Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has joined #lisp 23:07:51 In Drew McDermott's implementation? I don't think so, no. 23:09:40 "(06:23:36 PM) Fare: Hexstream, there have been enough lispy format reimplementations as is (06:23:40 PM) Fare: why yet another one?" How many lispy format reimplementations were good enough that they were massively adopted, relegating FORMAT to COBOL status, again? 23:09:53 Fare: 23:10:11 curious, what did you find inadequate about the pprint interface? 23:10:23 Hexstream: i think the point of a language is that many people speak it, not that it is perfect. 23:10:54 If something 20x better than FORMAT came along, many people would speak it, I'm sure. 23:11:06 Hexstream: or, in other words: have it your way, if you want to talk to yourself primarily. 23:11:30 H4ns: Know this: You're vastly underestimating me. 23:11:47 Don't take my word for it, it will be manifest in a few years time. 23:11:50 Hexstream: certainly. 23:13:00 define "good enough". 23:13:05 Then there's the marketing question. 23:13:36 a guy has code in his repo that doesn't use asdf and doesn't interoperate with anything... nobody's gonna use it. 23:13:41 Good enough that the marketing question is not a problem. ;P 23:14:03 everything is a problem. 23:14:26 Like your attitude? 23:14:33 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:34 hah 23:14:38 I can see both sides of this. OTOneH it's a mess to redo FORMAT. OTOH, there are counterexamples: ITERATE seems to me to be well worth it as an alternative to LOOP. 23:15:29 I don't see how it's "a mess" to redo FORMAT. You mean for the designer/implementor? That's not really a "problem", as long as it gets done by a properly motivated and skilled person. 23:15:52 -!- zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-65-220-212.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [SeaMonkey 2.11/20120715041107]] 23:16:39 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-76-117-5-156.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:17:00 rpg: My opinion about iterate: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/statuses/228155809215946752?tw_i=228155809215946752&tw_e=details&tw_p=tweetembed 23:17:13 Of course I have a bit of a vested interest. ;P 23:17:54 Our shop is definitely migrating.... 23:18:05 Fare: I really don't get the intended meaning of "a guy has code in his repo that doesn't use asdf and doesn't interoperate with anything... nobody's gonna use it." in context. I don't do non-asdf code. ;P 23:18:34 is this the proper way to determine the character set of an open stream: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131719 23:18:35 ? 23:18:43 well, drew mcdermott has been doing lisp since way before ASDF. 23:18:49 rpg: Yeah, that's a good idea. Just saying ITERATE won't displace LOOP before something much better than it comes along. 23:18:50 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:19 (i'm looking for something to put into the charset= field of a content-type header) 23:19:28 Fare: Oh, you meant that. Well, I wasn't advocating McDermott's FORMAT replacement at all. My version won't have any shortcomings like that. 23:19:30 H4ns, might be. Are you putting that in hunchentoot? 23:19:45 why not just repackage McDermott's ? 23:19:45 Fare: that's what i'm looking at right now, yes. 23:19:47 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:32 Fare: Because I would have no interest in using it even if it was in Quicklisp, and I doubt many people would. 23:20:45 It's just not good enough. 23:20:57 I appreciate his general philosophies and his attempt, though. 23:21:18 Fare: Yes, Drew's code is mostly written in his own dialect, Nisp, and using his own build tools, I keep meaning to pull some stuff out and repackage it, but the requisate amount of free time keeps not arriving. 23:21:51 Ah, well that's a problem. See, I'm NIH as hell, but my code does interoperate. ;P 23:22:01 I have written Nisp in my professional lifetime, but not for 20 years or so. 23:23:30 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@177.16.187.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:34 rpg: what are highlights of Nisp? 23:23:59 Fare: Extreme terseness, lots of mappers, optional strong typing. 23:24:40 All of the mappers (of which there are a boatload) have two character abbreviations (both of them punctuation characters!) 23:25:02 mappers, as in variants of mapcar? 23:25:32 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-250.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:25:40 Yes, starting with mappend and ending (IIRC) with some very complex variants. 23:25:50 That's stupid. By the way, the future of mapping in CL lies in ONE all-encompassing mapping function. 23:26:10 Based on powerful iterators (enumerators, accumulators, transformators, etc). 23:26:25 You can do a lot with mapping in Nisp that requires loop or iterate in vanilla CL. 23:26:48 rpg: Nothing "requires" LOOP or ITERATE in "vanilla CL". 23:26:56 the future of mapping in CL probably lies in Clojure or Racket. 23:26:57 I never use LOOP or ITERATE and I'm doing just fine. 23:27:10 I suspect these extend to cover generators and the like. It's been 20 years.... 23:27:49 Hexstream: They'll have to pry ITERATE out of my cold, dead hands. 23:27:52 ;-) 23:28:15 Or present something 10x+ better than it to you. ;P 23:28:34 Then you'll drop it on the floor mercilessly. 23:28:51 It can lie next to LOOP, then. 23:29:39 H4ns: beware that the names that the various CL implementations use for the encodings might not be standard, and therefore acceptable for HTTP 23:29:52 fe[nl]ix: yes, i gather that much 23:30:09 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.171.145] has joined #lisp 23:30:09 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:51 fe[nl]ix: i think that won't stop me from adding this as a first approximation. but, do you know what charset names are actually acceptable? i was unable to find a definitive list. 23:30:52 e.g. latin-1 should be iso-8859-1 23:31:08 fe[nl]ix: or latin1, according to rfc1700 23:31:23 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:31:34 fe[nl]ix: but rfc1700 does not mention utf-8, and it is supposedly replaced by an "online database" that i could not find. 23:31:40 Fare: what was the lil you were asking about? 23:32:16 H4ns: see the IANA list at https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets 23:32:21 *rpg* has been having very flaky internet access today 23:32:33 -!- Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:32:52 H4ns: that's the online database the rfc refers to 23:33:02 fe[nl]ix: ah, cool. thanks! 23:33:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-18-162.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:34:13 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-407-205.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:34:32 one problem may be that although a browser may support a certain encoding, it might not recognize the "official" canonical name assigned by IANA 23:34:41 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-296-173.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:19 so from that list, I'd choose as canonical name the one labeled "preferred MIME name" 23:35:49 i've just found out that flexi-streams deals with this stuff nicely 23:36:11 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:16 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-216-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:37:38 i had a little accident lastnight and borked my quicklisp... quicklisp itself seems to be fine, i think just the cached systems are broken... any idea the quickest remedy? 23:38:06 rm -rf ~/quicklisp/; ccl -l http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 23:38:53 -!- prxq__ [~mommer@mnhm-590c21f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:07 ah, just start over. sounds good, but i'll back up my ~/quicklisp/local-projects first ;) 23:39:28 -!- CrazyEddy [~drumming@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:40:16 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:51 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-125-133.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:54 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 23:44:16 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 23:46:06 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:23 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 23:48:46 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:51:59 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 23:56:52 CrazyEddy [~emigratio@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp