00:04:54 To generate the text, I would start with the key words representing the utterance, and fill in the markov nodes to connect them and build the final sentence. 00:05:44 Spion: yeah, it's pretty easy to construct reasonable sentences with markov chains, but it's hard to not end up with a lot of non-sequitors in a conversation 00:06:36 pjb, exactly what my bot did. jasom, exactly what the problem was :D 00:07:11 also, the method i used to pick keywords often misjudged them, but even when it didn't 00:07:18 Communication logic may come to the rescue. The idea would be to build a model of the other party (what he knows or doesn't know), and to say something that has the most informational contents. 00:08:03 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.155.124.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:16 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.155.124.238] has joined #lisp 00:08:27 All within the current frame of discussion, or in related frames. 00:08:41 I used a mutual information measure on word pairs between the request and the generated reply, then I considered measuring more then just pairs but I gave up because c++ is annoying 00:09:02 but building a model of the other person's knowledge seems like an awesome idea 00:09:38 perhaps modeling it as a predictor of what they would want to hear. but for that you would need to measure wantedness 00:09:44 *Spion* scratches that 00:10:25 If a question is asked you could assume he doesn't know anything about the answer, so providing an answer would provide the most informational contents in the current frame. 00:10:48 If not, you may just something interesting to say by the same algorithm. 00:14:03 pjb: not true that they don't know anything about the answer. e.g. "Is it raining?" has a very restricted answer space. They know the answer is not "Purple" 00:14:53 Unless it's raining purple frogs :-) 00:15:23 answer: cats and dogs 00:16:23 Nauntilus [~NickServ@ip24-251-234-83.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 devnw [~NickServ@ip24-251-234-83.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:55 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:25:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:27:35 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:41 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0E4F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:04 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:31 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:35:20 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:37:51 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:12 hmm, i think i know how to measure how interested a person was about the answer. if they respond immediately and the response contains a lot of new information (not something like a simple "ok"), then that means they liked the response. 00:38:34 meaning, a good answer is one that engages the other side 00:38:35 :) 00:39:09 ok 00:41:00 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:49:36 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:50:21 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:52:56 CampinSa` [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:02 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:13 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:56:16 leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has joined #lisp 00:56:17 -!- leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:01:03 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:13 -!- jeti` [~user@p548EA9D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:01:32 booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:25 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:23 -!- harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:09:39 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:19 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:13:33 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:15:00 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 01:15:36 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:16:18 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:18:00 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@76.254.22.206] has joined #lisp 01:18:30 -!- devnw [~NickServ@ip24-251-234-83.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:30 -!- Nauntilus [~NickServ@ip24-251-234-83.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:37 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:21:56 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:23:00 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:33:24 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:33 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:42:47 Man, I've been out of it. I thought Mark Taver had become fed up with technology and gone off to live in the wilderness. Then, I find out he has a new lisp language out. Kind of like a pro-athlete returning from retirement. 01:43:11 Except he seems to be performing better than when he retired. 01:44:34 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:45:27 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-pvudujiuvqtnlvcj] has joined #lisp 01:48:42 another lisp? 01:49:20 Shen -> http://www.shenlanguage.org/ 01:49:48 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:50:52 bpaschen [~strg@a89-182-178-144.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:18 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:29 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-4-186.net-htp.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:55:35 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:57:42 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:01:22 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:23 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:01:23 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 02:02:02 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:34 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:06:42 -!- Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:08:05 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:42 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:10:53 -!- booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:24 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-45.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:44 strg [~strg@a89-182-1-198.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 02:13:36 -!- bpaschen [~strg@a89-182-178-144.net-htp.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:13:45 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:17:00 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:51 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:19:00 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:26 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: quitters gonna quit :|] 02:21:27 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 02:31:43 CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.72.45] has joined #lisp 02:36:28 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:40:55 leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:46:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:30 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 02:53:26 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:46 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:57 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:50 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@76.254.22.206] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 02:59:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.16.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:00:08 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:08 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 03:01:14 Is there an idiomatic way to combine 2 8-bit bytes into a single 16-bit integer in common lisp? 03:01:42 snits [~snits@174-17-101-132.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:43 (+ (ash a 8) b) is fine, I think? or else something with ldb... 03:02:51 -!- benny [~user@i577A8179.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:04:07 logior is another way 03:08:03 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has left #lisp 03:08:38 dpb could also work. 03:19:23 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.155.124.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:23:58 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:26:36 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 03:29:50 so many choices 03:33:05 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:34:41 longlene [~loong0@221.181.146.170] has joined #lisp 03:36:11 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-50-47-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 03:38:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.210.238] has joined #lisp 03:42:58 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:45:49 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:54:04 -!- leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:18 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:54:18 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:54:59 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:05 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-53-31.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:00 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:00 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 04:05:24 benny [~user@i577A7CEC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:05:42 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:39 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:09:33 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 04:15:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:20:12 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 04:20:42 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:24 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:40:11 yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:01 asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has joined #lisp 04:43:30 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 04:43:36 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:44:41 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:31 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:58:46 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:05:12 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:58 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:17 BrianRice [~water@75-172-24-41.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:56 teggi [~teggi@123.20.26.103] has joined #lisp 05:11:59 What's a good way to work differential equations into an abstraction? I'm trying to program models of some neurons and I'm kind of blanking. 05:12:13 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 05:12:34 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 Bike: maxima? 05:14:31 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 05:15:17 I don't want just to solve them... I'd rather have the neurons as composable units, that sort of thing 05:17:31 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 Bike: Build a compiler for it? 05:22:13 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 05:22:29 hmm when the hyperspec says simple-var, i.e. in the loop macro, is it simply to mean a local lexical binding, as opposed to a special variable with dynamic scope? 05:22:58 I see no reference to simple in the related declarations documentation 05:23:40 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:23:49 «simple-var---a symbol (a variable name).» 05:24:00 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:24:04 hmm 05:24:05 thanks 05:24:16 I still don't understand how it's simpler than other variables :) 05:24:28 as opposed to d-var-spec, I guess, which is a destructuring sort of list of variables 05:24:36 oh 05:24:45 I think this makes sense indeed 05:24:54 thanks again 05:25:10 p_l: uh, could you expand on what you mean a bit 05:26:25 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 05:28:04 Bike: Make a DSL describing the equations you want, and the connections between them (forming the net), and have a compiler building a function of Input,state->Output,newState from it 05:28:47 Bike: individual equations (neuron cells) and composed parts of the net could be referenced by symbols, and you could resolve relationships at compile time 05:29:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:29:13 p_l: I see... I think that makes sense, thanks. 05:29:24 (think of it like free variables in nodes that are resolved at compile time, a'la prolog) 05:45:58 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:46:23 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-msxokevrbhdivxgw] has joined #lisp 05:46:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-msxokevrbhdivxgw] has quit [Changing host] 05:46:23 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:47:28 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:52:29 gko [~user@42-75-222-16.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:54 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:00:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:01:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:06 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 06:04:19 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 06:04:48 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:04:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:04:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:05:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:06:12 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 06:07:33 xscc [~xscc@113.200.107.80] has joined #lisp 06:07:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:20 -!- xscc [~xscc@113.200.107.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:29 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08:32 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 06:12:55 -!- gko [~user@42-75-222-16.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:14:31 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:17:43 ``Erik_ [~erik@pool-108-3-186-191.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:52 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 06:19:13 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-186-191.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:54 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:26:05 stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has joined #lisp 06:27:22 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:10 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: I have to go to work <-- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!] 06:30:03 nha [~prefect@g225006223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:07 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:32:49 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:34:06 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-199-223.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:21 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:41:18 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:18 gko [~user@42-75-222-16.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:22 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:50:07 -!- gko [~user@42-75-222-16.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:51:16 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:54:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.210.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:57:35 francogrex [~user@109.130.94.167] has joined #lisp 06:59:08 is sbcl permissive with these variants: (loop for k being the hash-keys of *table* using (hash-values v); (loop for k being the hash-key of *table* using (hash-value v); (loop for k being the hash-key using (hash-value v) of *table*... clisp gives me a warning unless the first form ? 07:00:14 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1bb5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:01 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:37 no mention of using (hash-values ...) instead of using (hash-value ...) in the hyperspec so clisp is right 07:07:32 so the (hash-values ...) and (hash-keys ...) all should be plural 07:08:39 and the place of "of *table*" being either after hash-keys or hash-values, do you think that makes a difference? 07:09:52 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:10:08 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:10:24 why don't you just look at the nice bnf? 07:10:26 for-as-hash::= var [type-spec] being {each | the} 07:10:26 {{hash-key | hash-keys} {in | of} hash-table 07:10:26 [using (hash-value other-var)] | 07:10:26 {hash-value | hash-values} {in | of} hash-table 07:10:26 [using (hash-key other-var)]} 07:10:51 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-pamcloitwzvzfqgd] has joined #lisp 07:11:29 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:39 so {hash-key | hash-keys} of hash-table, plural and sigular can be used interchangeably. clisp is not right 07:13:00 no, you can't use it in the using clause 07:13:39 can't use the plurals in the using clauses, I mean 07:13:41 no the using but after The clisp says should be plural 07:14:17 Bike: yes I know so the good way is: (loop for k being the hash-keys [or hash-key] of *table* using (hash-value v) 07:14:45 or maphash :D 07:15:04 clisp complains when I use (loop for k being the hash-key <<< says this should be plural 07:15:26 but yes, it says you can't put the "of [table]" after the using clause, I think sbcl is known to be extra permissive with these things 07:15:26 H4ns: yes I know but sometimes it's useful in a loop 07:16:11 yeah there's also the requirement of ordering of types of clauses that most implementations will let you get away with 07:16:15 Bike: yes true, but clisp is strict in a wrong way about plurals. To each his defects 07:16:58 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/308945 07:17:17 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 07:18:30 How is compose-all from Sam Steingolds ext.lisp supposed to be used? It's at http://www.koders.com/lisp/fidA1F4BD4016E4E068C6E0FE852C181E715489BB4D.aspx?s=steingold#L165 07:18:51 Bike: is not about hash tables and hash keys that link 07:19:06 which proves at least one point of the loop detractors. it's sometimes not very clear what the semantics are. 07:20:08 That's a complex `compose'... 07:20:17 Hello! 07:20:37 chr: what's unclear about compose-all? 07:21:13 chr: with a normal compose, each function is called with the one return value of the previous one. with compose-all, each function is called with all values returned by the previous function as arguments. 07:21:20 Oh! `compose' is a macro! The horror. 07:21:41 H4ns: Where could you like a paste? paste.lisp.org does not list any channels. 07:21:44 chr: so compose works with unary functions, compose-all works with n-ary functions and requires each function to return n number of values. 07:21:46 *would 07:21:55 chr: channel is not needed, paste the url here after you've pasted. 07:22:04 M'key. 07:23:27 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:28 gko [~user@42-75-222-16.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:07 H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/+2TKN 07:24:09 quazimodo [~quazimodo@124-149-40-112.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:24:34 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-231-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:57 bpaschen [~strg@a89-182-3-159.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:15 chr: that's not the fault of compose-all, i'd say 07:25:19 A segfault? It seems nasty. 07:25:42 H4ns: so it appears I have used it as intended? 07:25:56 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.94.167] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:25:59 chr: but i'm not sure if compose-all even works, as it uses #'identity as initial function to reduce. 07:26:11 chr: yes, that is how i'd try it. or similar. 07:26:16 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:26 -!- bpaschen [~strg@a89-182-3-159.net-htp.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:26:54 In our body of code, there is no use of compose-all. 07:27:08 chr: that is because it is broken :) 07:27:36 chr: try this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131639#1 07:27:37 maybe use values instead of identity? 07:27:45 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-1-198.net-htp.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:28:06 is values a function that can be called? 07:28:27 oh, yeah. nice. 07:28:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131639#2 07:29:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-0-116.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:53 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 07:29:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.72] has joined #lisp 07:29:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.72] has quit [Changing host] 07:29:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:30:40 chr: moral: if in doubt, try on a different implementation 07:31:07 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:56 H4ns: Will do. Thanks. 07:34:24 I'm trying to use #'%pcap-next from PLOKAMI. I've made it to read packet, but output looks different from what I get using exported #'capture function. 07:34:34 Could you point me what I'm doing wrong? - http://paste.lisp.org/display/131640 07:35:38 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:02 mrSpec: What does `%pcap-next' do? 07:39:28 didi: it is wrapper on http://www.unix.com/man-page/FreeBSD/3/pcap_next/ 07:39:47 so calling this funciton first time, I'd like to get first packet 07:39:48 strg [~strg@a89-182-3-159.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:41:07 Well, I couldn't understand the man page, but it says that it returns 1 or 0 and you seem to be trying to read `res' like a unchar array. 07:41:47 Also, unless `%pcap-next' modifies `header', it would be using it uninitialized. 07:41:55 -!- gko [~user@42-75-222-16.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:42:02 pcap_next_ex returns 0 07:42:03 But I don't know nothing about this PLOKAMI. :^( 07:42:06 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:15 pcap_next() should return u_char pointer 07:42:22 I see. 07:42:46 Well, sorry. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help you. 07:43:08 rking [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 07:43:29 Someone in #ruby said of the language, "its not a valid lisp yet ( i dont think )" 07:43:39 What makes a thing "a valid lisp" or "not a valid lisp"? 07:43:40 It is first time I'm trying to use CFFI so I think I'm using this foreign function in the wrong way or mem-aref? 07:43:48 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:52 rking: Parenthesis. 07:43:53 didi: thanks anyway :) 07:43:58 mrSpec: Good luck! 07:44:02 didi: I'm not falling for that one. 07:44:14 rking: it's a pretty pointless argument that's been reenacted far too many times 07:44:53 Bike: I just don't understand the concepts, though. How is the definiton Lisp so malleable that such a statement is even remotely meaningful? 07:45:07 I wouldn't look at HTML and say, "Hrm. That's almost a valid SQL." 07:45:13 mrSpec: I don't know Plokami either, but it would probably help to elaborate on "output looks different". 07:45:45 rking: HTML is new compared to Lisp. It's also standardized. Compare with, say, almost any natural language. 07:47:27 The only clue to this one that I have is that I remember reading something about a way you can use lisp to create DSLs, that since code == data, there's a way to make your input look like odd things but actually run Lisp expressions. 07:47:49 rking: (of course, some Lisps are standardized, like CL and Scheme. just like how there are standards, formal or otherwise, for certain types of English.) 07:48:14 Bike: right, so capture (which calls %pcap_loop) returns '(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22...) but pcap-next '(1 0 94 0 59 77 0 0...) 07:48:43 rking: Well, you can turn it into anything, really. Look at LOOP. 07:51:08 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:51:10 http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=729 and http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=275 have some interesting almost-answers to my question. 07:51:22 -!- nha [~prefect@g225006223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:51:32 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:52:37 rking: My rule of thumb is: When among Common Lispers, lisp means Common Lisp, when among other people, lisp is to ambiguous a term, use concrete dialect name instead to avoid confusion. Sometimes a discusion will naturally include a definition of lisp that is valid in that context, for instance the discussion might be limited to maclisp like dialects, or scheme variants, but no universal definition exists. 07:52:38 didi: LOOP is a Lisp? 07:52:50 rking: loop is part of CL. it looks not much like the rest of the language. 07:52:59 rking: ^ 07:53:06 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:53:11 from a few minutes ago: «(loop for k being the hash-keys of *table* using (hash-values v))» 07:53:19 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 07:53:37 Are we talking about http://loopgotowhile.eugenkiss.com/ ? 07:53:44 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 07:53:54 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:00 No. 07:54:07 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_a.htm 07:54:08 rking: we're talking about common lisp. this channel is about common lisp. 07:55:01 Actually, I was talking about other languages that count as "a lisp" 07:55:23 eh, leave it to the dictionarists, I want to program. 07:55:59 rking: common lisp counts as "a lisp", that much is certain if you ask this channel 07:56:08 I wonder why the title of that lispworks page, and also didi's comment, use capitalized "LOOP". Is that not a totally different symbol than "loop"? 07:56:12 a question like "what are the major differences between Ruby and Common Lisp", that might get you some concrete answers. 07:56:21 rking: CL upcases everything by default. 07:56:31 Aha 07:56:58 Bike: OK, I'd like to hear an answer to that one as a pretty-good consolation prize. 07:57:32 rking: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 07:57:36 well, I don't know Ruby, but as far as I understand it doesn't use a sexp representation and doesn't have macros. I've heard it does have a symbol data type. 07:57:53 Ooooor you could go check out that nice page, murr. 07:58:56 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@124-149-40-112.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:00:47 What do I install to get a nice REPL like what made that features-of-common-lisp page? 08:01:15 rking: that page was made by a human, not a repl. but wait :D 08:01:30 rking: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 08:01:40 The green expression results aren't coming from REPL output? 08:01:57 rking: the coloring was done manually 08:02:17 =| 08:02:29 *didi* is not aware of a REPL that paints characters 08:02:36 H4ns: This link is exactly what I wanted. 08:02:36 the editor does syntax highlighting, not the repl 08:03:02 I wasn't referring to the coloring. I was using the coloring to refer to the parts that look like they came out of a REPL. 08:03:13 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:03:54 That's a _nice_ link. 08:04:05 But I would install SBCL from the repos. 08:04:20 er, if you type "(+ (floor pi) 2)" you'll get 5 printed, and so on. 08:04:54 implementations generally have a repl, and the SLIME environment can spruce it up some. 08:05:26 didi: You'd want newer than 1.0.55-r1 ? 08:05:35 rking: Nope. 08:05:58 Kk. That's what Gentoo's stable version is. 08:06:12 Bike: Yes, I've heard about SLIME in particular. 08:06:21 well, it's usually recommended that you just build it yourself, but the latest is .57 or so 08:06:32 Actually I'm pretty closely involved in Ruby's Pry REPL, and it compares itself negatively with SLIME. 08:06:40 rking: SLIME + Emacs is awesome. 08:06:40 .58. damn. 08:07:05 rking: is that so? well, h4ns's link there should get you set up so you can look at it. 08:07:13 Bike: Hrm. I'm on Gentoo, so it's going to build from source is that similar? 08:07:14 rking: slime is not just a repl. 08:08:04 rking: it's pretty simple. get an implementation and emacs however, then get quicklisp (download+load one lisp file), then use quicklisp to load a slime helper. 08:08:10 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:08:39 Kk. I will. 08:09:41 emacs or xemacs? Back a decade ago, when I used Emacs, it made a big difference. 08:09:53 Go with Emacs. 08:09:53 rking: emacs 08:11:28 «SLIME should work with Emacs 22 and 23. If it works on XEmacs, consider yourself lucky.» well! how straightforward. 08:11:46 Hehe, k. 08:13:29 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:33 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:14:24 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 So, I have this goal with Pry, that I've been calling pry-de: https://github.com/pry/pry/wiki/pry-de 08:16:23 tl;dr 08:16:48 I am familiar enough with Smalltalk to know that it's time (for me) to start getting some of the runtime environment at my fingertips while developing. The file-based world is useful, but it's an encumberance. 08:17:03 well, thinking of runtime and compiletime as "implementation details" could get you in trouble in cl 08:17:15 though I'm not sure what that means. 08:17:20 Hrm. 08:17:33 I'm more interested in blurring the edit-time vs {compiletime,runtime} steps. 08:17:43 rking: Welcome to CL. 08:17:55 All I really mean by that is you code up some thing in the REPL, then it vanishes, and you have to copy and paste to get it to be in the system you commit to your VCS. 08:18:32 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 rking: in emacs with slime C-c C-c compiles a function under the point, and then its available in the repl, no need to copy paste. 08:19:08 So that's actually going the other way. 08:19:12 rking: You can have a sense of if using StumpWM. 08:19:19 You're editing the file then sending it to a the REPL. 08:19:36 yeah. you could do it the other way pretty easily with slime, I imagine, but I don't think there's a feature for it 08:19:50 This is good, and I see some intriguing stuff in the from of Light Table as well. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/light-table 08:20:52 rking: Light Table is interesting. When it came out, I remember reading conversations about implementing such features in Emacs. I don't know if anything concrete came out of it. 08:22:05 rking: check out this screencast on slime(150MB): http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 08:22:21 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 08:23:31 pavelpenev: Excellent. Thank you. (Bonus points for the filesize-mention) 08:24:47 I don't know much about it but slime-repl keeps a history. I don't think a "dump last entry to working file" command would be too hard, at least as a start 08:26:40 Bike: With Ruby, everything's organized into classes that simplifies the question, a little, about where things should go. 08:27:43 Wouldn't the order of evaluation in Lisp get fairly tangled if you tried to make a large project by appending onto the end of lib files? 08:27:53 oh, I see. CL doesn't really have much of a module system like that, I guess you'd have to copy one from PLT or something. 08:28:02 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:10 rking: lisp system construction is traditionally file based 08:28:46 rking: that's part of why I said "as a start" rather than "you fool, your idea is so simple!", yeah :P 08:28:49 rking: it is possible to set up things similar to how smalltalk traditionally works (i.e. image and log), but that is not how contemporary lisp environments work. 08:29:01 H4ns: actually, on lisp machines and certainly on the interlisp systems it was image based 08:29:22 rking: look at pjb's image based cl (ibcl.lisp) once you've made yourself with the lisp basics. 08:29:44 H4ns: OK. 08:29:56 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:30:05 mal__: "traditionally" in the sense of what has made it into traditions still effective today. 08:30:16 H4ns: What I want most is to make it so one developer can work in the runtime utopia that I imagine, but that the other developers on the project don't even have to know about it. 08:30:18 H4ns: fair enough 08:30:23 That basically the files are the "image" 08:30:46 rking: more power to you. but please give yourself some time to learn and appreciate lisp. 08:32:23 H4ns: You mean my Ruby pry-de stuff will be greatly informed by learning Lisp workflows? 08:32:33 Or are you saying that there is other value to be had by studying it? 08:33:01 rking: I think we assumed you were interested in Lisp. 08:33:07 just don't get frustrated when you find out it's not everything you've ever dreamed? people seem to do that sometimes 08:33:22 rking: of course there is other stuff to be learned. lisp is just not a ruby in disguise, and also it is not the other way round. 08:34:13 rking: if all you're looking for is inspiration for your ruby project, you'll probably be best off with looking at the slime video 08:34:27 I'm interested in more than only that. 08:34:40 rking: also look at kalman rety's lisp symbolics presentation to see what older lisp systems did. 08:34:50 In fact I'm also planning on studying Haskell in the middle-term timeframe so that I can get even stricter FP stuff 08:34:56 or is it reti? let me find the link. 08:34:59 knobo [~bohmer@87.238.43.83] has joined #lisp 08:35:33 rking: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=932 08:35:51 Hehe, rking is ambitious. Brace yourselves, a new programming language is coming. 08:36:27 Hehe, I'm not too eager to make a new programming language. My goal is just to sharpen the existing saws. 08:36:29 Would it be right to argue that loop is lisp's list comprehension? At least it looks to me like it is. 08:37:01 knobo: no. list comprehensions are a pretty narrow concept, and that's why they shine. loop hardly shines. 08:38:22 I like loop. 08:38:50 H4ns: This loper-os vid is related to older workflows that were good? 08:38:51 Most of it 08:39:24 rking: yes. it is a description and demo of open genera, which is the lisp-based operating system that ran on symbolics lisp machines 08:44:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-199-223.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: asleep] 08:46:33 H4ns: OK, excellent. 08:48:38 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 08:50:10 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 08:51:13 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:52:27 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 08:53:01 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-231-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:54:26 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: x] 08:54:53 ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:23 mjl [~superjudg@37-46-176-66.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 08:59:49 alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:18 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:01 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 09:03:16 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:03:46 -!- mjl [~superjudg@37-46-176-66.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:05:42 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07:07 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 09:08:25 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-68-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:09:03 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 09:09:40 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:42 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:59 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 09:10:28 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:10:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:11:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:16:47 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:18:50 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:11 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:21:51 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 09:24:56 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:35 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:26:30 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:29:32 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 09:30:31 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:30:31 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 09:31:02 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 09:32:49 H4ns: Nice video. Thanks. 09:37:31 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:09 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:44:37 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-pvudujiuvqtnlvcj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:48:32 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:59 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 09:51:13 hello. is this guaranteed to return true? (equal '(a b) (cons 'a (cons 'b nil))) 09:52:40 kmee: Yes. 09:53:02 kmee: yes. what's the worry? 09:53:03 thanks, I wasn't sure. 09:53:24 i am comparing similar lists for equality 09:54:29 ok. how so? 09:54:34 what does "similar" mean for you? 09:55:10 (i mean, for you present purposes) 09:55:14 *your 09:55:56 you mean the actual use case? I am using lists as a 2 element tuple, consisting of two symbols 09:56:01 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:29 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:22 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:01:27 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:02:16 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 10:04:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:05:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:06:22 -!- kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 10:06:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:07:27 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:00 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 10:18:54 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.127.58.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 10:22:57 snearch [~snearch@f053013089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:43 kmels: Notice however that (not (equal '(#(a)) (cons (vector 'a) nil))) 10:25:06 s/kmels/kmee/ and he's gone. 10:25:44 leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has joined #lisp 10:26:30 replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 10:26:57 pjb: Is that because the literal #(a) and freshly-returned (vector 'a) are different objects? 10:27:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:27:33 sellout42: herep 10:27:40 I thought they'd be (NOT (EQ )), but (EQUAL ). 10:30:37 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:30:38 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:30:57 chitofan [dcff0277@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.119] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 antoszka: equal does not descend vectors 10:31:53 only strings 10:31:57 ah, ok 10:32:16 equalp does. 10:32:26 yes, along with being case-insensitive 10:32:35 (equalp '#("a") '#("A")) => T 10:32:43 Yeah. 10:33:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:34:54 strings and bit-vectors, even 10:35:23 why, who the hell knows 10:36:36 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053013089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:38:27 rking: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 10:40:46 antoszka: yes. 10:40:55 For vectors you need to use equalp. 10:41:06 But then, equalp compare strings case insensitively. 10:41:16 (or rather, characters). 10:41:56 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:42:05 So clearly, for some things, you'll want to write your own equal predicates 10:42:22 Yeah, for something in between equal and equalp. 10:44:50 How do I convert from base18 to base10? 10:45:07 Fenne: there's no base 10:45:10 for integers 10:45:28 Fenne: if you have base18 input, just read it with such base 10:45:31 you can parse a string in base18 10:45:56 (parse-integer "ABCDEFGH" :radix 18) 10:46:37 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.127.58.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:47:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.72] has joined #lisp 10:47:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.72] has quit [Changing host] 10:47:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:47:22 p_l: I have base18 input and I want the output to be decimal 10:47:27 inversely, if you want to output in base 18, there are several options: (format t "~18r" x) (write x :base 18) 10:48:06 and you an directly use integers in base 18 as #18r123 10:48:06 oh, i get it 10:48:29 thanks. I need to read more to avoid asking such questions 10:49:01 clhs *read-base* 10:49:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_bas.htm 10:49:18 to change the default base of all integers read, if you really want to 10:49:33 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 10:49:39 so, the best way, if you have a bunch of integers, is to use PARSE-INTEGER 10:50:57 there's *print-base* too. I'd advise (setf *read-base* (setf *print-base* b)) 10:51:06 stassats: yep, I have one string, i need to split this string with spaces and convert each element :D 10:51:10 i'd strongly advise against it 10:51:24 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:55:13 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:59:30 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:00:47 -!- replore_ [~replore@EM117-55-65-134.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 11:05:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:06:08 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:09:55 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:10:52 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-24.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:20 jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has joined #lisp 11:17:58 stassats: even if b is 10. ? 11:18:23 pjb: well, it should already be 10, so no reason to set to it 11:18:33 pjb: now, binding it is another question 11:19:03 You're removing all the fun. 11:19:25 but then again, setting *read-base* means you're going to use the reader for parsing, which isn't always the best idea 11:19:52 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 11:23:32 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:23:33 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:23:54 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:24:01 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:22 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 11:25:36 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:26:03 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:04 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:27:49 -!- longlene [~loong0@221.181.146.170] has left #lisp 11:28:22 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 11:28:56 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:28:58 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:25 -!- zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:30:49 longlene [~loong0@221.181.146.170] has joined #lisp 11:34:59 Stocki [~sebastian@kure.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:13 Hello! 11:35:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:40:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:41:34 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 11:42:51 -!- longlene [~loong0@221.181.146.170] has left #lisp 11:42:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:45:08 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.127.58.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:47:37 -!- knobo [~bohmer@87.238.43.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:54:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 longlene [~loong0@221.181.146.170] has joined #lisp 11:55:09 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 12:00:54 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:28 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:02:59 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:03:17 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04:06 Xach: I also found multiple :use forms to be useful, since it means you can write defpackage wrappers that include certain packages by default while still easily allowing each wrapped level to use :use. (defmacro def-project-package (name &body args) `(defpackage ,name (:use :cl :alexandria :project-utils) ,@args)) 12:04:19 (def-project-package #:foo (:use :something-else)) and so on. 12:04:28 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 12:04:46 multiple :exports don't work well with C-c x 12:06:10 or M-x slime-export-class, I don't really edit exports by hand 12:08:38 zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:09:43 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 12:10:46 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 12:11:34 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:15:14 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:27:35 flanfl [~flanfl@210.194.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:35 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@210.194.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:22 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:30:23 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:30:50 flanfl [~flanfl@210.194.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:10 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:35:50 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:07 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:54 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:39:52 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:45:06 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 12:46:24 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:47:07 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:48:36 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:25 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 12:55:19 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 12:56:03 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:01:11 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:21 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:56 stassats`: t 13:03:10 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 13:03:24 sellout42, nice class hierarchy diagram 13:04:45 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:44 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:59 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 13:07:27 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 13:08:07 Quadrescence: Thanks. I think it could still use a bit of cleaning up  the MOP stuff makes it a little confusing at the moment. 13:08:26 doesn't MOP make everything confusing? 13:12:33 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:12 Quadrescence: It'd be less confusing if it were part of the standard ;) 13:14:17 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:14:49 :) 13:16:35 sellout42: that's what i wanted to ask, the MOP parts being confusing 13:17:05 -!- chitofan [dcff0277@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17:15 -!- Stocki [~sebastian@kure.informatik.uni-osnabrueck.de] has left #lisp 13:17:29 what's the difference between matters for MOP and only present in MOP? 13:18:03 ice [~ice@222.130.136.120] has joined #lisp 13:18:46 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-0-116.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:19:01 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:43 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:40 mjl [~superjudg@37-46-176-66.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 13:24:20 stassats`: Whether or not something is an abstract class only matters if youre using the MOP  if you don't have the MOP, you can't MAKE-INSTANCE any of the classes, since they're BUILT-IN-CLASSes, not STANDARD-CLASSes. With the MOP, you have to know whether youre actually allowed to MAKE-INSTANCE the STANDARD-CLASSes. 13:24:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:24:44 That is probably also not totally clear. But if there's a nice way to fit that into the legend, I'm all ears. 13:25:26 It might be good to split the image into two  one sans MOP and one with the MOP. *shrug* 13:27:16 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ptqianavcaxotpja] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:16 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:27:25 sellout42: my only suggestion is to remove "only matters for MOP" and leave just "only exists in MOP" 13:28:08 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:28:46 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:48 -!- mjl [~superjudg@37-46-176-66.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:08 Joreji_ [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:06 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 13:32:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:36:01 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:37:08 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 13:39:02 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:49 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has left #lisp 13:41:14 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44:51 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:47 stassats`: Leave in the part that says "abstract class", but remove the "explanation"? 13:47:59 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:48:18 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-pamcloitwzvzfqgd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:20 asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has joined #lisp 13:49:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:52:08 sellout42: another take: divide the legend into two section, as it is already divided logically 13:52:26 and i'd remove funcallable arrows 13:52:54 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 Greetings lispers 13:53:07 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-101-132.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:45 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:53:49 sellout42: because a) funcallable-standard-object is funcallable, and you standard-generic-function is in MOP but the arrow doesn't have rounded corners 13:55:04 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc05-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:27 hello ThomasH 13:58:00 -!- alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 13:58:03 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:58:07 sellout42: and the dotted line is used only once, but other stuff also lose their connection if the MOP is removed 13:58:20 e.g. class to standard-object 13:59:11 I'm reading "Efficient Method Dispatch in PCL" and am wondering if there have been any improvements in method dispatch since that paper, circa 1990. 13:59:12 sellout42: and for types, simple-base-string is missing 14:00:42 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:01:32 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:02:33 stassats`: class -> standard-object doesn't loose its connection, because the solid arrows stick around, the nodes just disappear. It's just that without the mop method is not a standard-object, but with the MOP it is, so that needs special handling. 14:02:41 s/loose/lose 14:03:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:04:48 oh, so, the dash line just means that the arrows won't be followed by non-mop classes 14:05:00 that might warrant a prose explanation 14:05:43 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:06:12 anyone like any HTML generators? 14:06:16 stassats`: Yeah  14:06:21 sellout42: and i'd made "standard-object" wider 14:06:27 stassats`: And I added simple-base-string, thanks. 14:06:29 mstevens: i like cl-who 14:06:51 wider, so that it can fit on one line 14:07:01 yaclml is nice, too 14:08:13 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.136.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:08:16 sellout42: and i'd make (or at least a version) the whole thing wider, i.e. combine clusters from left to right instead of top to down because of wide screens 14:08:47 stassats`: You want a wallpaper version? ;) 14:09:13 no, it might be just easier to 14:09:14 read 14:09:27 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:09:28 stassats`: cool, trying that 14:10:40 sellout42: and what is it made with? perhaps you could just release a source 14:11:22 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:26 stassats`: It's made with OmniGraffle. 14:11:50 getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@CPE-124-191-133-14.wzyy1.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:11:59 I will release the original file when I post the updated version. 14:12:10 sellout42: where is it? 14:12:16 (the current version) 14:12:23 H4ns: http://sellout.github.com/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ 14:12:38 for osx only, well, the source is useless to me then 14:13:10 maybe it has some format which inkskape supports? 14:13:13 scape 14:13:16 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:16:38 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 14:17:19 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:25 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:18:31 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:38 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:50 sellout42: compiled-function is a type, not a class 14:20:17 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b508b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has joined #lisp 14:21:04 stassats`: My original way-old version was done in Graphviz dot, but it got difficult to maintain as it grew. 14:22:28 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:22:33 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:23:53 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:23:58 PuercoPop420 [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has joined #lisp 14:24:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:24:36 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:28 coldnew [~user@61-62-72-115-adsl-tpe.dynamic.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 14:25:40 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:29:40 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:30:07 PuercoPop712 [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has joined #lisp 14:30:13 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:30:50 springz [~springz@42.48.246.8] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 -!- PuercoPop420 [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:34:45 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:35:06 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has joined #lisp 14:36:34 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:29 stassats`: There might just be an error in http://www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#inheritance, but it seems that instances of funcallable-standard-object are not funcallable. 14:37:33 -!- PuercoPop712 [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:37:45 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:24 http://www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#funcallable-instances says that Instances of classes which are themselves instances of funcallable-standard-class or one of its subclasses are called funcallable instances. and the only two classes that are instances of funcallable-standard-class are generic-function and standard-generic-function. 14:38:47 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:43:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:20 strg_ [~strg@a89-182-178-153.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 *mstevens* tries and fails to make cl-who work. I may not actually know what I'm doing 14:47:53 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:01 mstevens: there are only a few evaluation rules, but you have to know them well to get the most out of cl-who 14:48:06 sellout42: there must be an error, becuase there's no other way funcallable instances are going to work 14:48:10 not a wing-it situation 14:48:58 stassats`: Why not? funcallable-standard-object might provide the slots, but it's the metaclass that provides the funcallability. 14:49:21 Xach: I'm failing to make an example from the docs work, so I suspect I'm doing something fundamental wrong... 14:49:33 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-3-159.net-htp.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:49:41 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 14:49:44 sellout42: then it'd just be an abstract class 14:49:53 mstevens: instead of *http-stream*, use *standard-output* 14:50:00 sellout42: but it's not marked as such 14:50:08 mstevens: then you'll see the generated html in your repl 14:50:11 So if you (defclass my-funcallable-class () () (:metaclass funcallable-standard-class)) 14:50:32 H4ns: ot that part 14:50:36 got 14:50:58 mstevens: what example does not work for you and how does it not work? 14:51:32 stassats`: Well, you could still make instances of funcallable-standard-object, they just wouldn't actually be funcallable  which is weird. But it's not like there aren't other weird cases in our specs ;) 14:51:49 ikki [~ikki@189.196.98.143] has joined #lisp 14:53:00 on sbcl and ccl: (class-of (find-class 'funcallable-standard-object)) => # 14:54:12 H4ns: hold on, pastbinning... 14:54:37 use paste.lisp.org, please 14:54:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131658 14:55:03 how do you write an infinite loop in lisp? 14:55:06 mstevens: you need to use the cl-who package. 14:55:10 jfe: (loop) 14:55:17 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 14:55:18 mstevens: (use-package :cl-who) 14:56:33 sellout42: "what would pcos do?" 14:56:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:40 H4ns: aha! that's perfect 14:56:50 Microbenchmarks for CLOS method dispatch -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/131659 14:56:55 H4ns: I had formed the apparently mistaken idea quickload did that 14:57:15 Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. 14:57:18 quickload loads the software but does not otherwise change the package system 14:57:32 stassats`: Hah, true :) But then I need to figure out how to make an arrow with rounded edges for funcallable-standard-object ;) 14:58:04 sellout42: i'd just drop it, doesn't seem to be a very usable distinction 14:58:20 excellent 14:58:38 sellout42: and you can also funcall instances of function 14:58:52 stassats`: Well, I distinguish all classes by their metaclass currently. Maybe I could just find a better shape. 14:58:58 Based on that micro benchmark, generic function calls take roughly twice as long as function calls. 15:00:03 ThomasH: do the function do any class dispatching? 15:00:11 functions 15:00:12 what's a good documentation if you want to lookup concept -> function? 15:00:34 reactormonk: what is concept? 15:00:37 *mstevens* makes a web page that says hello. This is possibly more exciting if you're me 15:00:39 stassats`: Yes, on a single argument. The code was pasted. 15:00:50 nanoc [~conanhome@mail.openminds.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 dammit, I think CLISP overwrote my path 15:01:17 ThomasH: i see no dispatching, it returns 0 unconditionally 15:01:35 stassats`: like "insert an element into a list at position n, shifting all afterwards" 15:01:43 evileast [~snpg@122.157.114.188] has joined #lisp 15:02:10 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:02:22 just take a list of symbols => concepts and reverse it 15:02:31 minion: clqr? 15:02:31 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 15:02:50 stassats`: GF g2 dispatches on the first argument. I don't understand your question. 15:03:51 ThomasH: you said the ordinary function is faster than generic-function 15:04:06 but the generic-function is specialized, while the ordinary function is not 15:04:31 but dispatching takes time. 15:04:45 stassats`: problem is that different people describe it differently - so a lookup based on what types it operates would be nice 15:05:16 reactormonk: you can use #lisp instead 15:06:13 ThomasH: so, (defun fun (x) (typecase x (c1 1) (c2 2))) 15:06:48 First, this is *not* my micro benchmark, I'm just working through the article. Second, GF accessor[1-3] dispatches, GF g1 is specialized, but only for one class, and GF g2 is specialized for 2. I'll look through the article again and see if it clarifies what we're measuring. 15:06:50 Now the difference is that fun discriminates types, while defgeneric would discriminate classes. 15:07:13 ThomasH: well, nobody stops you from modifying it! 15:07:45 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@mail.openminds.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:07:49 pjb: with types and classes being equivalent here 15:08:23 Yes. What I mean is that typecase and whatever mechanism defgeneric uses may have different performances. 15:08:25 stassats`: That's Phase II, if I decide that I can actually get some useful information related to my question. 15:08:44 pjb: right, but that's why i want to measure it 15:09:14 i.e., is it worth it rolling out your own dispatching, for performance reasons 15:09:15 Notably, implementations may open-code the dispatching of generic functions. 15:09:20 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@n1164813126.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:22 -!- evileast [~snpg@122.157.114.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:16 (loop (progn (gf 42) (gf 'sym))) may directly call the corresponding methods, at least the second time on. 15:13:17 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:14:02 pjb, I think you should qualify your "may" statements with a "typically" as well. 15:14:55 I'm trying to figure out what the cost of making the API extensible through GF is versus just requiring calling an ordinary function. 15:14:56 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:10 stassats`: I'm not sure I like this solution 15:15:14 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:31 reactormonk: just learn all the functions 15:15:42 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:15:51 stassats`: yes, that's what I intend. 15:16:52 besides, some things cannot be expressed with a single operator 15:17:42 Actually, if I go forward with an API that allows extensibilty with GF and find down the road that the performance is unacceptable, I could use the MOP to muck with the underlying dispatching mechanisms, right? 15:17:45 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:18:49 I may not even need the MOP, Chapter 5 in Keene, "Controlling Generic Dispatch" 15:19:52 stassats`: Including SETFs :) 15:19:56 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has joined #lisp 15:20:11 This can be done with (setf nthcdr). 15:20:36 -!- coldnew [~user@61-62-72-115-adsl-tpe.dynamic.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:41 this can't be done with (setf nthcdr), because there's no such thing 15:20:51 she gave me the boobs.... 15:20:53 omg 15:20:54 lol 15:21:34 o.O 15:22:40 stassats`: There is (setf cddr) but no (setf nthcdr)? 15:23:26 ThomasH: so, on SBCL, it appears as g2 is faster than (typecase x (c2 2) (c1 1)) 15:23:36 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:23:40 naryl: why would there be (setf nthcdr)? 15:24:23 i.e., what possible use would it have? 15:25:10 Replacing a part of the list after skipping a few elements? 15:25:51 (setf (ca/dr (nthcdr list x)) 10) would do that 15:26:47 stassats`: That's good to know. My question is more along the lines of "How much does a GF interface cost me versus ordinary functions?" i.e. (binary-op :add 1 2) versus (add 1 2). 15:27:04 stassats`: That example is slightly contrived, but I think it conveys my question. 15:27:35 well, compile-time dispatch isn't really interesting 15:28:06 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@n1164813126.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: ] 15:28:10 stassats`: I'm trying to weigh maintenance costs, extensions costs, etc. 15:28:25 Things that don't measure well in micro benchmarks. 15:28:55 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-225-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:05 xscc [~xscc@113.200.106.43] has joined #lisp 15:29:14 -!- howeyc [~howeyc@199.229.255.169] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:40 well, if there's no run-time dispatch, then of course functions are going to be faster and most probably easier to use 15:31:29 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-udrtforxruwybgol] has joined #lisp 15:32:55 for run-time dispatch, unless it's really simple, maintenance cost are going to be higher, naturally 15:34:03 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:34 -!- xscc [~xscc@113.200.106.43] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:34:46 Yes, I think I'm going a little overboard with the generic functions. 15:39:11 Huh. There doesn't seem to be a matrix math library in quicklisp. There seems to be a lisplab and a matlisp out there, though. 15:40:30 sykopomp: That's actually what I'm working on right now. Trying to clean up the moribund linear algebra library I created. 15:40:58 sykopomp: It's pretty rudimentary at the moment, only equivalent to BLAS level routines. 15:41:14 *sykopomp* puts an issue up on github for xach. 15:42:02 sykopomp: What about GSLL? 15:42:46 GSLL? 15:42:56 minion: GSLL? 15:42:56 GSLL: the Gnu Scientific Library for Lisp http://common-lisp.net/project/gsll 15:43:23 GSLL is in quicklisp 15:43:30 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 hmmm 15:44:07 *stassats`* imagines a movie trailer "GSLL is the matrix library" in Quicklisp 15:44:21 sykopomp: LLA is in quicklisp 15:44:53 sykopomp: I'm just going down the list of libraries on the cliki linear algebra page with ql:system-apropos 15:44:55 "run it in your lisp, this Autumn" 15:45:33 does that make 3 libraries entirely dedicated to wrapping LAPACK? 15:46:03 sykopomp: Does the GNU Scientific Library rely on LAPACK? 15:46:11 I didn't think it did. 15:46:41 clem is in quicklisp. I've always been intrigued by that library. 15:46:47 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:46:54 minion: clem? 15:46:55 clem: CLEM is a lisp package for representating and performing various operations on matrices. http://www.cliki.net/clem 15:47:03 thought so! 15:47:17 matlisp, lisplab, and now lla 15:47:36 nothing about gmp tho 15:47:49 knobo [~bohmer@97.80-203-252.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:58 clem seems inaccessible from that cliki page 15:48:21 sykopomp: Indeed it does. That's disappointing. 15:49:02 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:07 https://github.com/slyrus/clem 15:49:57 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:51:57 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:53:15 sykopomp: In summary, there are many to choose from and probably none of them are exactly what you are looking for. 15:54:02 seems like 15:57:00 *ThomasH* goes to get coffee. 15:58:16 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:16 is there a multipair rotatef? 15:59:51 maxm: what's that? 16:00:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:02 ie I have 2 structs and rather do something like (swap-fieldsf (foo-of x) (foo-of y) (bar-of x) (bar-of y) (baz-of x) (baz-of y)) 16:01:22 ie kind of like single setf or setq, rather then bunch of them 16:01:41 (rotatef (values x y) (values x1 y1)) 16:01:43 does anybody know of some library for validating the syntax of email addresses ? 16:01:44 oh 16:01:45 thanks 16:02:02 fe[nl]ix: cl-ppcre? 16:03:27 I'd like something already made 16:03:31 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 fe[nl]ix: but it is already written, http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ 16:04:11 combine it with http://ex-parrot.com/~pdw/Mail-RFC822-Address.html 16:04:17 voila 16:05:30 implementing a standards-compliant email parser as regex is not the way to go 16:05:34 just have them type the address twice!1 16:05:52 or send an email to it 16:05:53 fe[nl]ix: what is wrong with that? 16:06:11 see the regex in stassats`'s link 16:06:26 fe[nl]ix: and what's wrong with it? does it not work? 16:06:33 I don't know 16:06:43 it's so complex that I have no way of checking 16:06:54 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:58 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:07:09 fe[nl]ix: you could use a simpler validation expression at the expense of missing some invalid addresses. 16:07:31 i'd just search for @ to catch simple errors (please, don't tell me you can have an address without it!) 16:07:48 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:07:53 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 H4ns: I don't like that at all, it is really really frustrating to have your perfect valid address rejected by some code written by someone who doesn't know what an e-mail address is. 16:08:39 woudshoo: what address was rejected? 16:08:41 http://common-lisp.net/project/rfc2822/ 16:08:42 woudshoo: i have never had such problems. you can certainly insist on using addresses that fail stupid validators. 16:09:06 woudshoo: and then declare that "people are so stupid because they can't program". good riddance. 16:09:38 (declaim (people stupid)) 16:09:40 why are email addresses so complex? 16:10:05 loke: first of all a lot of validators do not like '+' 16:10:10 woudshoo: besides, i suggested using a validator that might miss some invalid addresses, not one that rejects valid ones. such expressions are much less complex than the one stassats pasted. 16:10:16 Condition of type: CROQUE-MITAINE 16:10:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:10:29 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:10:29 woudshoo: sounds stupid, 16:10:31 stassats: hysterical reasons. same reason sendmail still has lots of rewrite capabilities 16:10:45 H4ns: Oh, that makes it better. 16:11:06 mal__: well, maybe the businesses demanded it 16:11:22 no. different systems had different conventions 16:11:31 "we want to give our employees the most vicious email addresses" 16:11:33 H4ns: Sorry I didn't read your message right. But I have had my share of trouble putting data in systems. 16:11:43 "there are the big bucks, do it!" 16:11:43 remember the good old time janet wrote dns names the other way around? 16:12:03 do bangpaths still work? 16:12:07 mal__: yay! or sendmail.cf files that dealt with decnet and uucp addresses 16:12:31 I've adminned decnet nodes. somehow I've escaped uucp 16:12:39 clearly, there needs to be email 2.0 16:12:52 the only up side of sendmail was that it could rewrite addresses. other than that, it was among the most awful and inane programs that i had to deal with in my programming life. 16:13:16 H4ns: In general, I do not like all that checking. Do a check and warn, but do not forbid entry by the user. Anyway, you can never check that the user didn't misspell his name. 16:13:18 friend of mine implemented a theorem prover in it. because we said it was impossible. 16:13:37 woudshoo: HAVE THEM ENTER IT TWICE 16:13:42 :) 16:13:53 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:13:59 well, the easiest is just to send an email to it and ask for a reply 16:14:05 or clicking a link 16:14:10 H4ns: I am fine with that! But in my opinion the regexp way is the wrong way. 16:14:50 woudshoo: because you believe that no regular expression exists that can check email addresses properly? 16:14:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:15:01 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:15:02 woudshoo: i think this is just misbelief. but anyway. 16:15:18 H4ns: that's why i write in assembly 16:15:18 sykopomp: The main problem I have with the CL wrappers for LAPACK is that they are too thin. I want to be insulated from the Fortran as much as possible. 16:15:29 H4ns: because every program can be expressed in it 16:15:43 stassats`: ah, now that is proper reasoning. 16:15:45 H4ns: I think it is possible, just because it is probably turing complete. But e-mail addresses are awfully complicated, so it is easy to make a mistake 16:16:06 -!- phrixos [U2FsdGVkX1@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:16:21 woudshoo: awfully complicated because they can contain plus signs? 16:16:38 H4ns: more than that 16:16:48 H4ns: did you know an email address can contain comments? 16:17:18 H4ns: Did you ever try to read the RFC describing a valid e-mail address? 16:17:20 loke: yes. i knew that. and i'd not be afraid at all to reject comments in email addresses entered by a user when validating them. 16:17:38 woudshoo: indeed. i was not only a sendmail hacker in the past, i also dealt with smail and exim a lot. 16:17:39 loke: what was the man who added them thinking? 16:17:56 stassats`: I have no idea. It's in there though. 16:18:08 H4ns: But why would you reject them? 16:18:33 woudshoo: because i'd not at all be sure that the rest of my system could process them. 16:18:38 i would to, screw such users 16:18:46 stassats: it's the same like CL pathnames. they were solving a problem in an environment that nowadays no longer exists. 16:19:55 -!- leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:19:56 H4ns: I think it is a bit sad that there is a standard, and instead of replacing it with a subset and simpeler standard, each and every program has its own subset. 16:20:03 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:29 woudshoo: it is sad. but it is not sad enough to bother me. the world is not perfect. 16:20:30 mal__: well, the problem with cl pathnames is not that they have too much features, but that they're not specified rigorously enough 16:21:04 woudshoo: i'm not wasting my time for smart-ass corner-case users who have the time to read the standard and then make up an email address that frequently breaks mail systems, despite being standard compliant. 16:21:18 H4ns: Anyway, I am curious why a system would break, except the sendmail etc nobody should care what is in an e-mail. It is just an opaque string. 16:21:21 woudshoo: and i pity them for wasting their time with such stupidity. 16:22:17 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-199-223.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:24 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:29 it's the same kind of people who would insist on inserting non-printable characters into file-names 16:23:39 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:45 H4ns: what a perl mindset 16:23:54 if there is a specification, programs should adhere to it 16:24:02 not just the easy parts or the parts they like 16:24:05 H4ns: Sorry, if I came accross as trying to break the system. That is not the case at all. 16:24:34 mal__: there's a healthy subset of perl that actually gets email parsing right since there are convenient modules 16:24:55 mal__: i certainly agree with that. but there are practical limits to that, and what you can see today is that massive amounts of software are created by people who neither have the time nor the intelligence to do things right. 16:25:27 well, bogus specifications are bound to be ignored 16:25:32 H4ns: But it is triggered by something more general, I used to live in a place which had some creative address, which the postal service could find just fine. But just because my address was validated against list, it was rejected. So I hate tests like these. If I think this is my address, print it on a box and send it. 16:25:48 one person's bogus specifications are another person's "can't do without" feature 16:26:17 woudshoo: I used to have a similar problem, my address existed, but wasn't in people's databases so they claimed it didn't exist 16:26:26 There's an amusing presentation called "E-mail hates the living", by a guy who maintains/-ed several mail-related modules on CPAN. Apparently it's so bad that some of the mail RFCs contradict each other 16:27:32 if you think that's bad, try usenet. 16:27:35 they contradict themselves internally :( 16:27:44 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:50 Also in general, I do not understand the fetisch with input validation. It is more work, you can get it easily wrong. (Warning it is suspicious is ok) 16:27:50 nntp has been governed by an informal son-of-rfc for the last few decades 16:28:06 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:28:19 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-225-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:29:44 So back to lisp. I am reworking the cl-git library and have another naming question 16:30:21 don't name it clit 16:30:27 hahaha 16:30:45 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-017-031.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:30:48 stassats`: hah, you made me delete my next question> 16:31:17 that name is taken. a library to remove drm from MS Reader .lit files is called openclit :) 16:31:32 So I want to write a generic function (lookup class ...) and class is one of commit, tree, blob, ... 16:32:05 I want to dispatch on that. Should I use keywords like :commit, :tree, or the real class name 'commit 'tree. 16:32:08 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:32:41 Keywords 16:32:47 The disadvantage of the later approach is that if you do not 'use' the cl-git package you have to write (git-lookup 'cl-git:commit ...) instead of (git-lookup :commit ...) 16:33:13 Correction (cl-git:lookup ... ) of course 16:33:22 keywords should be fine. 16:33:48 leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has joined #lisp 16:34:25 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:35:06 so two votes for keywors. I was slowly leaning towards that myself. 16:35:47 what would be a possible down side? 16:36:17 for one, if someone came to implement methods on your functions that would dispatch on a conflicting name, they'd need to use a different name (or a non-keyword symbol) 16:36:27 else? 16:36:55 H4ns: The class name approach is more like (make-instance 'class-name) 16:37:12 not really 16:37:13 woudshoo: he said class but meant symbol 16:37:29 woudshoo: you i mean 16:37:32 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:37:33 H4ns: Also, but that is really minor, the code can be more generic 16:38:17 Assuming that git:lookup is dispatching on more than the class, keywords don't present that much of a potential for name clashes. 16:38:29 woudshoo: and besides, i'd like lookup-commit more than having to remember what symbols lookup is specialized for. 16:38:31 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 16:38:33 class being the first argument. 16:38:47 stassats`: what do you mean 'not really'? 16:39:17 woudshoo: it's not like (make-instance 'class-name) 16:39:21 H4ns: Hm, yes, I could add those. 16:39:53 woudshoo: unless you also accept classes 16:40:18 stassats`: Yes, that I was planning on. 16:40:33 why? 16:41:20 i see no good reason for lookup to accepts classes for this 16:41:28 stassats`: Not sure, actually, I think because the lookup methods are basically a (make-instance ) call (+ libgit2 C - library call) 16:41:53 stassats`: It is more for completeness sake. Not really practical 16:42:33 H4ns: I can have (lookup-commit ..) but still need a generic lookup because it makes it easier to do things like (lookup (type-of ...) ...) 16:43:22 Also this is one of the first times I am trying to utilize CLOS. (And produce a object system ontop of a garbled C based object system.) 16:43:47 skip C, just parse git files directly in Lisp 16:44:07 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:01 stassats`: Hm, I don't know. I was trying to avoid to learn the innards of git too much. 16:45:25 well, it might teach you a thing or two along the way 16:45:50 stassats`: Yes, but I might want to learn different things :-) 16:46:04 learn all the things! 16:46:18 why do you want to access git from lisp anyway? 16:46:36 stassats`: Ah, that is the interesting bit. (for me at least) 16:47:02 so, why? 16:47:22 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-cputlwqevwbiynya] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:23 stassats`: I always get lost in big revision graphs, so I want to navigate a git repository (add metadata) consolidate the graph into something I understand. 16:47:43 -!- Guest24698 [user@nat/google/x-xbovkvminwniixmr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:47 can't you parse the output of some git command? 16:48:03 stassats`: So I like to play with graph algorithms to get a rivison graph of 10,000 revisions down to something manageable. 16:48:26 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 16:48:39 stassats`: I could. But I thought this is easier and more complete. 16:48:45 there's two different cl-git on github and one git-cl 16:49:01 no fantasy whatsoever! 16:49:05 stassats`: Yep, I am modifying cl-git right now. 16:49:53 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-gptjzxbnginleclc] has joined #lisp 16:51:00 Oh, and git-cl seems to be not related to common lisp. 16:51:13 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:53 i would have named a library to deal with git just "git", i have even less fantasy 16:52:14 Hm... 16:52:15 or maybe "glitter", l is for lisp 16:52:24 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:52:28 Ah, but I just forked it from russell, and try to fix it up and give it a sane naming convention etc. 16:52:35 eix dev/haskell 16:52:50 Also I am spending time writing a tutorial/manual on how to use it. 16:52:53 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-242-225.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:52:58 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:53:45 fuck me, now somebody will use "glitter" for their git lisp library and i wouldn't be able to use it for mine 16:54:06 stassats`: Ah, you want to write one too ? :-) 16:54:16 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:54:27 well, only a pure lisp one, and i'm not really planning on 16:54:32 *ThomasH* reads "The Cult of Done Manifesto", again. 16:55:57 In particular, 2. Accept that everything is a draft. It helps to get it done. 16:56:22 And 8. Laugh at perfection. It's boring and keeps you from being done. 16:57:21 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:57:22 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:57:24 ThomasH: somebody need to check if the combinations of colors on the sides of the cubes are consistent and correct 16:57:33 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 16:57:58 stassats`: Why bother, it's done. :-) 16:59:49 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:00:12 stassats`: isn't froydnj's called glitter? 17:00:20 i don't know 17:00:35 https://github.com/froydnj/glitter 17:00:49 git minds think alike 17:00:56 well, that just means that i'm unoriginal 17:01:08 or he just stole it and edited times on github 17:01:30 stassats`: He is quick! 17:01:47 and asked Xach to unveil it, so that nobody would suspect him 17:03:01 another possible name is gitler, that's how Hitler is pronounced in Russian 17:03:23 There's already a scheme compiler named Stalin, so why not 17:03:24 and make a port to scheme, to run it on Staling, of course 17:03:31 s/g// 17:04:03 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 17:04:09 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.127.58.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:15 rip Dan Weinreb 17:04:42 whaaaaaaaaaat 17:04:52 *Fade* blinks 17:04:54 ??? 17:04:57 ouch 17:05:05 what! 17:05:06 :( 17:05:24 yeah, very sad 17:05:27 :( 17:05:33 /q/quit 17:05:33 In case any StumpWM users ever wanted equivalent of M-x transpose-windows, here it is http://paste.lisp.org/display/131661 17:05:35 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:05:42 dlowe: How old was he? 17:05:49 about 57, I think 17:05:51 Not very 17:05:54 where is the announcement? 17:05:56 :/ 17:06:00 in my inbox :p 17:06:14 Way too young. 17:06:32 yea, very sad. I only found out he was sick last night. :( 17:06:46 chatting with him was a highlight of the last ILC for me 17:09:16 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 17:10:20 wow :( 17:10:23 Daisy [Daisy@host-78-78-223-91.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:40 It was fascinating to listen to him when I went to the BLM. He told us about channing with bjarne stroustrup when C++ was barely on the drawing board, right in the restaurant we were sitting in "in that table over there" 17:11:27 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.252] has joined #lisp 17:11:44 dlowe: Did he leave behind any family? 17:11:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:12:06 He talked about his son a lot in Reno 17:12:22 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 17:12:37 -!- Adeon [juolam1@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:34 i remember him being very good at karaoke, too. in fact, he was like the party animal on the ita cruise that i've been on. 17:14:03 -!- springz [~springz@42.48.246.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:14:11 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 17:14:21 Xach: That's the worst part, his family's loss. 17:14:35 optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:42 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 hmm, gotta move up "2 chicks at the same time" in my lifetime goals, damn thing comes for everyone 17:15:15 Shoot for the moon, there, maxm. 17:16:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:16:42 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:17:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:17:37 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:37 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:09 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:24:14 -!- `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:07 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-017-031.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:57 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@210.194.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:15 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:25 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b508b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:33:43 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:58 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 17:35:23 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-017-031.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:36:05 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:37:07 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-006-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:42 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:42:25 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:42 Does that mean there's a free lisp position at ITA now? 17:45:00 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:46:28 stay classy. 17:46:31 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 17:46:38 too soon! 17:46:55 Any library requiring a new maintainer then? 17:47:21 the com.informatimago libraries in a minute. 17:48:23 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-242-225.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:30 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-242-225.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:48:43 All I'm saying is that increasing life expectancy is still a figment of the imagination. Descartes died at 56, Weinreb at 57, I don't see the progress really. 17:52:42 anyone have links to some of his code? 17:53:06 and this could be updated: http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html 17:53:31 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53:52 i wish his tech talk was not removed from youtube/google video 17:53:55 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:43 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:46 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 aw, dan weinreb ): 17:58:36 Xach: know any of his co-workers or can we find someone at Google to make the video not-private? 17:59:21 the coworkers i know work in a different part of the google building 17:59:39 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:45 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:36 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:10:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:13:26 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:12 SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.211.189] has joined #lisp 18:16:26 janpaulbultmann [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 18:18:12 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 18:18:39 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 18:18:43 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:19:07 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-4.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-4.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:19:07 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:28:21 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@114.96.72.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:55 -!- janpaulbultmann [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:09 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-udrtforxruwybgol] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:32:13 pjb: a lot of improvement in life expectancy has been due to reduced infant mortality, which pushes average up quite a bit without people actually living longer 18:33:23 jasom: and yet Generational Garbage collectors insist that younger objects die faster. how can you explain that? 18:35:56 stassats`: they don't have to die faster; being easier to GC also works. 18:37:04 stassats`: Grabage kids get shot in the hood at age 15 18:37:43 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-199-223.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:39:12 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 18:39:47 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-7-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:04 mmm: unfortunately, master of puppets is still live :) 18:41:23 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.26.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:18 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:13 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:34 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 18:47:57 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:49:02 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:50:58 jasom: that's what I mean. 18:51:20 Maths are fun. 18:51:25 hi master ;) 18:56:57 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:02:28 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:03:30 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:06 mrSpec [~Spec@87-205-28-204.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 19:07:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-205-28-204.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:07:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:09:03 organixpear [~organixpe@96-42-14-128.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:04 Has anyone done any serious hacking on the cpio-write part of archive that they would like to share with me? Or does anyone know of a native cpio-write library? 19:10:32 Maroni [~user@046-220-087-004.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 19:12:28 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 organixpear: i haven't heard about anything like that. what are you up to? 19:14:13 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:17:06 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:52 how do you get the current focused receiver of the application frame pane for an mcclim app ? 19:18:53 asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has joined #lisp 19:19:07 i tried to use the com-quote command from troel, but it gets sent to the server pane....not the channel..... 19:20:34 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:51 i have multiple channels in tabbed panes.... 19:21:05 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:21:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-017-031.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:21:27 s/focused/active/ maybe.... 19:21:52 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:13 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:02 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.132.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:12 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 Does jaeschliman visit here by another name? 19:37:35 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:39:47 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:25 *pavelpenev* concludes that "git" is the most unsearchable thing on cliki. 19:41:43 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:41:49 s/git/github/ then 19:42:02 or "version control" 19:42:03 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:50 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-103.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:51 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-103.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:42:51 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 vcs, version control sing. 19:43:21 lhz [d572afb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.114.175.185] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 i have a very strange buildapp build failure, somehow a "require" is incomplete? thoughts? http://paste.lisp.org/display/131663 19:45:01 that looks very weird 19:45:17 that looks as if shell quoting does not work right 19:45:19 also, build-buildapp should be external... 19:45:31 dmx` [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 H4ns: has it suddenly stopped working? or has it never worked? 19:45:54 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:46:04 it has never worked with this sbcl (1.0.56.55) 19:46:15 i think it is an sbcl bug. i'll check out a release 19:46:44 H4ns: i can't reproduce it with with SBCL 1.0.56.55-f0da2f6 19:47:01 i just made a simple makefile with that as the action 19:47:26 i'll rebuild sbcl. thanks for looking. 19:49:01 it looks a little shelly or make-y to me 19:49:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.211.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:49:23 i tried from the shell, no make. and i tried with trusty old csh, too 19:49:34 same thing 19:50:16 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:50:27 interesting 19:52:02 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-242-225.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 19:52:24 H4ns: now that I'm on zsh, sbcl always dies in tests because of environment issues. I might just try and fix this once and for all ;) 19:53:02 pkhuong: hm. i'm on zsh, too. but i tried make with env SHELL=/bin/sh, same thing 19:54:09 it happens sometimes that you edit one file in editor, but start another file (in different directory so something) 19:54:36 and execute different code that you see 19:54:59 same issue with SBCL 1.0.58.0.sbcl-1.0.58.19-08efbee 19:55:10 sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit --eval "(require 'foo)" 19:55:14 "wth?" 19:56:32 H4ns: try '(require :foo)' 19:57:02 antonv: nay. same thing 19:57:03 \(require\ :foo\) 19:57:23 ok. my fault. 19:57:41 *H4ns* blushes in shame 19:58:14 i have a shell script that starts sbcl like exec $HOME/local/bin/sbcl $* 19:58:19 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:58:20 *sigh* 20:00:03 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-225.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:37 i know it is off topic, but what would be the proper way to pass all arguments quoted from a shell script to a program that is executed? 20:02:05 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:33 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:27 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 exec program "$*" perhaps? 20:03:50 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:02 hm. looks fishy 20:04:21 anyway. i've fixed it differently, sorry for the noise 20:04:32 these kind of things are a nightmare 20:04:50 scp has been buggy with that for years and no one seems to be able to fix it 20:05:32 "$@" of course 20:06:08 that's the whole difference between $* and "$@" -- "$@" is the thing you actually want, and $* is to confuse you. :) 20:06:09 foom: "of course"? i'd expect that to yield one string with all of argv in it. 20:06:25 H4ns: ha ha, yes, well, surprise it doesn't! 20:06:38 (...) 20:06:41 :) 20:06:52 is there one definitive source for common lisp libraries? 20:06:57 if not, why? 20:07:02 jfe: quicklisp 20:07:09 quicklisp 20:07:42 H4ns: I once told you about it, a few months ago IIRC :) 20:08:07 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:29 fe[nl]ix: about "$*"? me? oh my. 20:09:19 btw, unquoted $@ is extra fun, because it's actually the same as $*. 20:09:38 -!- organixpear [~organixpe@96-42-14-128.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:10:15 H4ns: "$@" is special syntax for "$1" "$2" ... 20:10:40 fe[nl]ix: i'll try to remember this time. 20:10:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-180.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:49 a sort of poor man's apply 20:10:57 and now that you remind me, for compatibility with some old shell that do something stupid if there are no arguments you really need some more magic of the ${...} kind 20:12:19 now that i'm not the only one talking shells anymore, is there any way to make zsh's line editor consistently treat words? for me, it uses different word boundaries when moving with M-b/M-f and deleting with M-DEL, which drives me crazy. 20:13:11 *Xach* scowls at H4ns and points to #zsh 20:13:21 heh 20:16:44 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:07 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-136-151-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:19:22 H4ns: That's one of the reasons I stick to bash. 20:19:29 o/ 20:19:38 nikodemus: hi! 20:19:50 antoszka: i came from tcsh last year, and i can't stick to that. 20:19:56 antoszka: it is just too bad. 20:20:09 H4ns: Why did you leave tcsh behind, then? 20:20:23 *Xach* scowls, is not sure where to point 20:20:34 antoszka: can't remember. i think i wanted to look less of an old fart :) 20:21:01 anyhing exciting happening recently? 20:21:03 H4ns: It's trendy to look an old fart these days, shouldn't worry about this aspect ;) 20:21:06 thing, even 20:21:39 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 20:21:44 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 20:22:59 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 20:23:40 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:25:53 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:26:41 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:28:22 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@181.64.65.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:31:28 nikodemus: is it difficult for lisp compiler to grow heap at incrementally at run time, without preallocating large heap at startup? 20:31:30 rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:32 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:36 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:51 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:33:13 hmm it's probably more a runtime issue, and it's be implementation-dependent, if it uses sbrk to grow the heap or equivalent, it in theory could 20:33:14 antonv: it's a runtime issue. The answer is no, but we designed our GC into a corner. 20:33:26 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:27 s/it's/it'd/ 20:33:36 yes and no. growing heap is easy, but the GC needs to then be able to deal with holes in the heap 20:33:40 phadthai: sbrk is a bad idea with FFI. 20:34:17 sbrk isn't a solution for OS X or windows either 20:34:32 the darwin implementation of sbrk is a bad joke 20:34:36 rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:03 it'd also be possible to allocate new pages but will they always be contiguous enough for the gc 20:35:09 i am curious where the different lays: telling the OS "give us more memory starting from that address" or in the internal data strucures if the implementation 20:35:13 using i.e. mmap 20:35:29 david lichtelau has a branch that adds heap-growing facility to sbcl, which i forward ported late last year -- mostly -- but didn't quite finish 20:35:46 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:36:21 phadthai: step 1) don't bake a contignuous-address-space assumption in your GC's design. 20:36:34 yes that'd have to be avoided 20:37:01 any abcl guys around? 20:37:28 also, in most long-running cases the heap will grow anyway, unless there's some overzealous GCing 20:37:31 pkhuong: why, it's difficult to request increast for more space from OS? 20:38:01 antonv: no, that's easy. Getting it to be contiguous is hard. 20:39:01 i mean exactly the request for continous grow. Hm, from how I imagine virtual memory paging, it should not be a problem for OS 20:39:12 antonv: what if there's already something there? 20:39:24 aren't you pushing the problem forward by making the memory noncontinuous. 20:39:30 you mean own data of the program (lisp implementation)? 20:39:52 so it might benefit short running applications, but it's not because a heap is large that all of it are active pages 20:39:57 nikodemus: #abcl 20:40:08 they'll become active as they fill up with objects 20:40:15 antonv: not lisp data. Space used by malloc, or dynamic libraries. 20:40:24 lhz: what problem? 20:40:35 nikodemus: what is up? 20:40:49 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 20:41:16 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 *jasom* thought POSIX required sbrk to be able to contiguously extend the heap 20:41:22 pkhuong: desicion of how to pack objects into memory. Either the application does it, or the layer beneith. 20:41:42 (assuming you have room in your process address space) 20:41:49 i.e. your initial system stack might already be 64MB in size at process startup, yet only a few pages could actually be in use 20:42:06 lhz: I still don't follow. 20:42:33 similarily a large heap could be allocated virtually, but it doesn't mean a short running image will really use all that ram 20:42:42 dmiles_afk: paying work -- robotics, machine vision, and LASERS 20:42:56 lisp too, just not cl 20:43:20 specbot: posix brk 20:43:27 "The behaviour of brk() and sbrk() is unspecified if an application also uses any other memory functions (such as malloc(), mmap(), free()). Other functions may use these other memory functions silently." 20:43:46 ah, I'm guessing sbcl uses mmap 20:43:57 yes 20:44:02 nikodemus: for a grant or a startup? 20:44:07 and malloc may use mmap etc which also aren't technically in sbrk managed heap 20:44:12 http://www.zenrobotics.com/ 20:44:31 I'm guessing sbcl manages its own heap, so malloc shouldn't be an issue? 20:44:32 jasom: as does nearly all current mallocs. 20:45:06 jasom: it doesn't, but even if it did, FFI would be useless if foreign libraries can't use malloc. 20:45:15 nikodemus: and they want to use the JVM? 20:45:56 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:46:01 well i suppose it makes sense.. it has more platforms 20:46:13 asobrasil1 [~asantioli@palpatine.privatedns.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:31 -!- asobrasil1 [~asantioli@palpatine.privatedns.com] has left #lisp 20:47:57 nikodemus: i been trying to decide how to ge4t arroudn so much numerical boxing (not related to abcl or lisp) 20:48:23 but i mean so i dont have to use C/C++ for mahine vision all the time 20:49:23 pkhuong: the problem of all mmaping going on. Isn't sbcl just pushing the problem down to the os. I'm thinking of size of /proc/pid/maps. 20:49:46 -!- longlene [~loong0@221.181.146.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:49:49 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has joined #lisp 20:49:52 nikodemus: (I was imagining porting zenrobotics code) 20:50:06 nvy [~ri@2607:5300:30:1::7777] has joined #lisp 20:50:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:50:59 nikodemus: (their machine vision code to lisp) 20:52:24 nikodemus: though actually a program in lisp would effectively not have to be bottlenecked do to some do loop 20:52:33 it's a matter of definition if the company is still a startup -- the company is five years old, and well funded, but first delivery is still in the works... but there's a customer and an order, etc 20:52:38 by some do loop over real numbers 20:53:16 lhz: the mapping, compared to what? No one uses sbrk anymore, because it doesn't play well with others. Nearly all current mallocs, particularly performance-oriented ones, grab address space via the OS. Not assuming a contiguous heap simply lets the OS do its job with fewer constraints; if the OS can't handle that right, it's certainly not a bug on SBCL's end. 20:53:44 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:53:48 pkhuong: ok, thanks for the explanation. So the main problem to grow heap if it requires continous address space is that other libraries may take the space above the heap 20:53:49 nikodemus: that company has found a perfect nitche 20:54:06 nikodemus: that will omly be solved by inovative software 20:54:43 (A robot arm that sorts recycling out of everyones trash) 20:54:47 antonv: or just shared objects, with address space randomisation. 20:55:05 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:55:28 nikodemus: there is no limit to the level of scavaging it could do! 20:57:16 and there is no way to reserve space in the process without increasing VSIZE 20:57:57 jasom: who cares about vsize? 20:58:12 pkhuong: isn't that the only reason for not just having a default huge heap size? 20:58:18 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:40 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: pnpuff] 20:59:16 I started to thing about the heap size when linux killed lisp process for outt of memory 20:59:39 jasom: no, there's also conflicts with libraries and the size of all the book keeping data structures. 20:59:43 I assume when it touched piece of the huge heap, for which there were no phisical memory 21:00:01 pkhuong: sorry, I might be seeing the wrong problem here. I'm just seeing /proc//maps as grotesque and blaiming sbcl for calling mmap() with too small chunks, is that a wrong understanding of what's really going on? 21:00:07 antonv: that's not a vsize issue on default congiruations. 21:00:11 antonv: that causes a segv, not an oom killer 21:00:34 and current oom uses rsize+pages in swap, not VSIZE 21:00:41 lhz: that's the mprotect-based write barrier in action, along with the allocation strategy that accidentally interleaves boxed and unboxed pages. 21:00:57 well more complicated than that actually but not vsize 21:02:33 I said nothing about vszie 21:03:32 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:46 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:54 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:56 http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2012/09/07/dan-weinreb-boston-computer-geek-community-figure-dies-of-cancer/ 21:05:01 what the hell 21:05:33 jasom: I mean access to the address space already allocated to the process, but when there is not memory to satisfy the need 21:07:18 wow 21:08:50 adeht: :( 21:09:50 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:10:03 pkhuong: I guess that was my problem, the gc doesn't move around and compact things.. never calling munmap. 21:10:20 lhz: it does call munmap. 21:10:28 lhz: and it does compact. 21:11:16 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:13:14 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:13:19 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 21:15:06 pkhuong: I havn't detected any calls to munmap, maybe I'm running wrong test code. 21:15:19 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:15:19 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:15 lhz: unused parts of the heap are released to the OS by various os-specific means that are equivalent to munmap and mmaping with zeros. 21:17:31 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:18:20 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:16 pkhuong: thanks for the input.. I must investigate into that out of curiosity. :) I guess it munmaps very conservatively to avoid flapping. 21:19:54 lhz: you could read the source code. It's 2-3 greps, really. 21:20:23 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-225.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:38 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:57 pkhoung: did that, but even thoug munmap is mentioned, you cant be sure of its usage profile. 21:21:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-136-151-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:24:55 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:26:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:31:41 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:49 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:33:46 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 21:34:40 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:37:26 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 21:37:38 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-204-126.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:08 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-246-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:41:47 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:50 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:10 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:14 brown [user@nat/google/x-pntgjoxmdfahekaq] has joined #lisp 21:46:39 -!- brown is now known as Guest50086 21:47:05 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:16 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-24.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:45 odd .. vector-push-extend with a non-default EXTENSION on sbcl seems to be massively slower 21:54:23 <|3b|> are you specifying a constant extension? 21:54:28 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:30 oh, misread the default, never mind heh 21:54:46 |3b|: yes .. i had misread the default as a constant 1, which boggled me 21:54:59 <|3b|> yeah, i've misread it a few times too i think :) 21:56:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:56:32 -!- lhz [d572afb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.114.175.185] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:08:44 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:11:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:02 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:56 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 22:15:51 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:16:40 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:20:02 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:37 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:25:10 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:31 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.22.88] has joined #lisp 22:29:33 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: Let's roll.] 22:30:54 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:32:47 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:32:51 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:56 This def(generic|method) is great. 22:34:49 Dispatching ftw. 22:39:26 -!- optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:35 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 22:42:48 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:57 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:19 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:47:32 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-006-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:40 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:04 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:53:00 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:56:28 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:58:34 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:59:12 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:32 hi 23:03:33 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:46 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 23:04:50 I've got a problem with libusb-ffi and linux, since hid kernel driver try to handle a hid device connected to the system, I could not claim the same device using libusb, in c/c++ I could detach the kernel driver, how can I do the same in Lisp? thanks 23:05:38 how do you detach the kernel driver? 23:06:10 in c/c++? 23:06:14 yes 23:06:27 calling usb_detach_kernel_driver_np 23:06:38 then do the same using cffi 23:06:48 ah right 23:06:54 thanks 23:07:37 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:16 -!- ghast [~user@host191.200-45-151.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:18:37 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:51 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 23:20:25 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:23 tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.150] has joined #lisp 23:21:35 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:10 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:32:20 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-141-187.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:33:14 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 23:36:42 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-88-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:37:12 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 23:39:12 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:00 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:42:54 -!- Maroni [~user@046-220-087-004.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:34 -!- strg_ [~strg@a89-182-178-153.net-htp.de] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:46:56 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:43 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:53:33 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:01 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 23:56:10 Oh man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Weinreb 23:57:03 The Gang of Five is down to four. 23:57:57 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:58 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:57:58 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 23:58:13 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:43 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]