00:00:40 Bike: i want to build something that allows me to trace it, basically 00:01:21 Bike: so essentially, i want to hook into the amount of functions that we're in and i want to output something to *trace-output*. the latter is obviously done for, as that has a special variable, but i don't know about handling the indentation. 00:02:00 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:03:29 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@108.205.48.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:53 AlexHe [~AndChat32@159.226.21.65] has joined #lisp 00:03:58 madnificent: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Function-Tracing.html help? 00:04:58 Bike: sb-debug:*trace-indentation-step* sounds quite a lot like what i'm looking for. thanks! 00:06:29 madnificent: If I understand you currently, you might be interested in what PAIP uses: 00:06:35 ikki [~ikki@189.196.113.242] has joined #lisp 00:08:30 didi`: almost there. what license is that? i want to allow for nested calls to be indented correctly too 00:09:02 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-178.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:45 madnificent: According to Norvig's page: http://www.norvig.com/license.html 00:12:18 andres-v [~andres-v@centraltelefonica.fruno.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:25 -!- andres-v [~andres-v@centraltelefonica.fruno.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:13:53 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.175.60.11.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:34 didi`: right, so it seems to me that by reading that, assuming i don't use it, i'm not forced to do anything. 't is interesting though :) 00:14:35 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-67-141-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 00:21:46 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-65-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 00:22:05 hmm, thinking of it further. is there an easy way to figure out in which method or function name a macro is being called? so (defun foo () (calling-my-macro)) then in calling-my-macro, is there a way to get the name foo at compile-time? i doubt it, but it'd be slightly cooler 00:25:35 M-x slime-who-calls ? 00:25:53 oh, macro, might not help 00:26:37 madnificent: don't think so. what are you even trying to do? 00:27:09 -!- harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:24 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:32 also note the mechanics of macros :p 00:30:31 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:32:11 rpg [~rpg@ip-64-134-45-14.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:34 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:31 jeti [~user@p548EA5C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.113.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:40:52 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:20 Bike: sorry for the late response. i was thinking of providing a default implementation for the message to log, being the name of the method or function in which the lambda function was created. 00:45:48 oGMo: no, that'd be available too late. i was hoping on something non-standardized in &aux or the likes 00:47:11 madnificent: ah 00:49:09 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:43 oGMo: good call aside from that though 00:51:58 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:54:23 jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 01:00:26 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:04:33 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:49 oGMo: cffi-grovel looks great. Do you know how to invoke it? I'm using (cffi-grovel:process-grovel-file "foo.lisp") but it's crashing SBCL. 01:09:44 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BCB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:25 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:03 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:04 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BDBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:54 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:30 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 01:16:13 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:52 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:17:41 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 01:19:13 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:20:07 -!- spilanthes [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 01:20:35 sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 01:20:45 -!- sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:02 There's another line width limit that is natural with computers: 132 columns for line printers. That can be a good alternative to the 72 or 80 columns limits. 01:23:37 I had a big 132-character width dot matrix once 01:27:33 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:28:49 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:29:24 -!- jeti [~user@p548EA5C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:30:20 Yeah, victory! Ufs... 01:31:54 sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 01:31:55 madnificent: what about http://paste.lisp.org/display/131561 ? 01:32:10 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.74.117.95] has joined #lisp 01:32:11 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.74.117.95] has quit [Changing host] 01:32:11 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 01:38:36 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 01:40:10 This grovel seems great. I'll redo all my enums and #defines done by hand. 01:41:15 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.181.215] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:44:22 pjb: yeah, like that's gonna happen, not reading. 01:44:42 (well, i read up to informatimago, which is IIRC all GPL) 01:45:19 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 01:51:07 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:51:14 CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.85.96] has joined #lisp 01:51:52 madnificent: you're dumb. AGPL3 is the best license when you are a USER. And as a programmer, you are a USER of any programming tool! 01:52:13 I should have kept it proprietary and be selling it to programmers instead. 01:52:24 pjb: wouldn't have made a difference to me :) 01:52:31 Then you are dumb, indeed. 01:53:03 (note: GPL doesn't play nice with lisp. you're not using LLGPL, which i dislike, but still use) 01:53:12 pjb: please stop 01:53:56 Stop what? 01:55:09 -!- sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:56:22 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:32 rpg_ [~rpg@ip-64-134-45-14.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:20 -!- rpg [~rpg@ip-64-134-45-14.public.wayport.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:58:30 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:00:38 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@ip-64-134-45-14.public.wayport.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:05 rpg [~rpg@ip-64-134-45-14.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:28 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:22 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:02:45 kliph [~user@24-183-96-81.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:47 -!- kliph [~user@24-183-96-81.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:02:47 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 02:03:35 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 02:07:14 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:11 Bike: looks like i went over it too fast, *trace-indentation-step* isn't what i expected 02:16:19 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:16:34 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 02:17:35 madnificent: well that's what you've got, with respect to tracing facilities. I still don't really understand what you're doing but if you want more than that you'll be rolling your own 02:18:04 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:18:47 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:21:48 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:23:45 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.179.66] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 02:25:21 Bike: oh yeah, i'm partially rolling my own. looks like i'll use some undisclosed SBCL things for hooking it into the standard tracing facility 02:25:27 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.179.66] has joined #lisp 02:33:14 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:34:59 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:55 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:36:54 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0EDBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:54 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:29 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:00 porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 02:49:20 superflit [~superflit@65-128-58-47.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:26 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:52 -!- cfy is now known as cfy_macbook_air 02:55:03 -!- cfy_macbook_air is now known as cfy_want_macbook 02:55:56 -!- cfy_want_macbook is now known as cfy_want_apple_m 02:56:04 -!- cfy_want_apple_m is now known as cfywantapplemba 03:02:06 -!- benny [~user@i577A72F8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:27 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:04:53 cfy: entertaining another channel? 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04:28:42 Yes. 04:28:58 To which :P 04:29:01 DoctorDude: you can ask both, as long as it's related to common lisp :) 04:29:11 DoctorDude: a OR b 04:30:09 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 04:31:24 AlexHe [~AndChat32@159.226.21.65] has joined #lisp 04:33:53 I'll address the floor then. I'm a student of computer science who has, up until now, only programmed with the imperative paradigm (Java/C++, C, Python, and so on). Now I've discovered (and become fascinated by) common lisp, and have read lots of testimonials about how much more "functional" (pun intended) it is compared to some of the imperative-based languages. Obviously I'm working on learning it, but in the meantime I'm curious why it's so much better o 04:34:31 why it's so much better o[cut]. CL isn't really functional, though. You can program functionally in it. 04:34:51 Functionnal programming style is better than imperative because it promotes programming without side effects. 04:35:24 Writing functions without side effects is good, because it makes it easier to prove the function is correct, easier to debug, and easier to parallelize. 04:36:45 perhaps lisp is so great because you can mold it to what you need for your problem. as in: you can mold it in such a way that you never need to think about too many pieces at once. so it keeps locality in check. functional programming, which suits lisp well, even though it is not at all forced, is one of those things that helps there. 04:37:20 pjb: ... and easier to re-use 04:39:01 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 04:39:20 DoctorDude: Considering how difficult programming is once you step outside of the land of trivial examples, you're better off with a language that doesn't force you to make design decisions too early, or minimizes the cost of changing your mind later. Lisp is pretty good at that. You have the freedom to experiment and learn more about your problem as you are solving it. Also its wicked fun to hack with lisp, that is a good 04:39:20 enough reason for me :) 04:42:14 Thanks for all the feedback. Again, I guess ill address the floor. I understand there are no "variables" in CL in the sense of how they're used in Java/C++, etc. Instead I understand CL uses symbolic bindings versus assignment. How do these differ functionally (no pun intended this time) from the Java/C++ variables? 04:42:37 DoctorDude: no, we have variables 04:43:10 madnificent: Referring to lambda variables or something else? 04:43:37 DoctorDude: (defvar *foo* 42) => defines a variable *foo* 04:43:39 DoctorDude: we have normal variables. in fact, we have more flexible variables than those in java. there are 'special' variables too. you'll learn about them if you decide to care, for now, remember that they're special and awesome. 04:43:53 (setf foo 4) is like foo = 4;. 04:44:14 Bike: right, but how does that differ from assignment which causes side-effects? 04:44:21 DoctorDude: it doesn't 04:44:23 It does not. 04:44:27 Ah 04:44:35 But when you're programming in the functionnal programming style, you don't use SETF. 04:44:36 DoctorDude: It causes side effects. If you think you can't program imperatively in CL you have been misinformed. 04:44:36 DoctorDude: lisp doesn't *force* any paradigm on you 04:46:32 madnificent: but I'm interested in working with the functional paradigm 04:46:40 Then don't use SETF. 04:46:42 DoctorDude: Lisp won't stop you 04:47:12 pavelpenev: I didn't think it would :P 04:47:29 DoctorDude: you can! it's just not forced. so when it 'gets in your way', you have an easy way out. much code in lisp is, on a high level, functional. however, in some places it just doesn't make that much sense, you can use variables there. 04:47:30 DoctorDude: If you prefer a language that will make it hard to use non-functional code try haskell 04:47:30 So there's absolutely no way to maintain "variables" in any sense using purely functional programming? 04:47:51 DoctorDude: You maintain bindings. Instead of reassigning old bindings, you establish new bindings based off of the old ones. 04:48:13 DoctorDude: you can do this: (let ((x 10)) (let ((x (+ x 100))) (print x))) 04:48:25 DoctorDude: in functionnal programming variables are mathematical variables: they don't change. 04:48:33 variables won't, constants aren't. 04:48:36 DoctorDude: CL is very nice for programming in a style that feels very functional and has minimal side-effects. it just doesn't prevent you from feely using side-effects when you want to. 04:49:30 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:43 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:47 madnificent: but in that sense, is that a side-effect? 04:51:07 pnathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 04:51:10 DoctorDude: All functional code must execute on an imperative CPU 04:51:14 no. the compiler could make it (print 110) and it would have exactly the same effect. 04:51:14 DoctorDude: no 04:51:43 FP is just an abstraction that makes it easier to reason about code sometimes 04:52:52 As an aside, I thought CL was an interpreted language? It can be compiled as well? 04:52:55 DoctorDude: there is no side-effect. the X is bound twice: once to 10, and then to 110, but the second binding shadows the first within the scope of the second LET form 04:53:15 DoctorDude: more like it's a compiled language, that can be interpreted :) 04:53:16 DoctorDude: Any conforming CL implementation has a compiler of some sort. 04:53:18 DoctorDude: all languages can be compiled, translated, interpreted, analysed or whatever you want to do with them! 04:53:49 DoctorDude: Where are you reading about CL? I think you've gotten something of a wrong impression. 04:53:58 pjb: Including python? I've never seen a python compiler 04:54:10 DoctorDude: I've never seen a python interpreter 04:54:23 Python is usually compiled to bytecode, Ithink? 04:54:26 python is compiled to bytecode executed in a VM 04:54:30 DoctorDude: it's often wise not to focus on the paradigm too hard. you'll rape it when applying it where it doesn't fit and get very very bad results. keep the paradigm in the back of your head and try to mold your code to it where it makes sense. lisp allows you to do just that. in my opinion, functional programming makes sense on a high level, in the architecture of your application, and often somewhat less on a low le 04:54:30 within in a single function. 04:54:59 cl-python has a compiler http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/manual.html#compiling-before-running 04:54:59 *pavelpenev* once wrote scheme code in python with horrible results :) 04:55:19 benny [~user@i577A8179.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:55:54 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:28 Bike: Where did i get some of my info about CL? Programming language theory class. I'm also reading Lisp by Patrick Winston, copyright 1995. 04:57:08 DoctorDude: practical common lisp is a good online book. and classes tend to explain lisp as a functional language, WHY OH WHY DO THEY DO THAT?! 04:57:45 DoctorDude: DO NOT believe anything any professor tells you about lisp! Most have not bothered to update their knowledge since the 19th century :) 04:57:59 madnificent: well mystery solved on the whole functional thing :P. But that's where I was introduced to it, and obviously I'm interested enough in it to investigate it through many avenues 04:58:07 DoctorDude: but yes, compiled. SBCL and CCL compile to native code, etc 04:58:29 madnificent: because when lisp was invented, there was no functional programming language, so when they teach things, they had to use lisp to show what functional programming was. And then they passed on to algol or fortran. 04:58:49 DoctorDude: if you're interested in paradigms, be it OO, functional or whatever else and a combination of it all, lisp is a language that can show it to you all. 04:59:37 pjb: i understand the historical reasons... but it doesn't make sense anymore. if you're teaching it, aren't you supposed to update your knowledge of it once in every, say, 30 years? 05:00:02 madnificent: no, that would be work, who has time for that :) 05:00:04 madnificent: that's the theory of academia, yes. 05:00:05 I thought lisp-as-functional stemmed from Scheme. I mean, looking at the Lisp 1.5 manual and such, I don't know how that could be considered functional. 05:01:30 madnificent: I also understand CL has application in the realm of security (my focus)... 05:02:08 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:58 DoctorDude: you can build whatever you want in it :) similar to other languages, yet you can get to a higher level of thinking of you want to do so. 05:03:02 *madnificent* out 05:06:19 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 05:06:58 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:32 So in CL's REPL, the code is compiled contrary to it's colloquial name as a "lisp interpreter?" Sorry for the sudden shift in topic :P 05:09:02 DoctorDude: depends on the implementation, but some do that, yes. 05:09:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:09:12 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 05:09:41 chitofan [dcff0281@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.129] has joined #lisp 05:10:38 DoctorDude: In some implementation there is a setting to switch between interpreting and compiling, if both are available. Interpreted code might be easier to debug. 05:11:22 Sometimes it compiles dynamically on the fly 05:11:37 pnathan: JIT compilation? 05:11:59 Well, ABCL probably benefits from the JVM jit. 05:12:01 I would be hesitant to call it JIT. 05:12:17 blar1 [~corey@cpe-75-187-151-213.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:26 Becuase JIT is associated with the JVM/.NET jitters 05:13:03 DoctorDude: usually incremental compilation. No idea if CLISP uses incremental or JIT 05:13:18 But essentially, some Lisp systems will take a DEFUN that you pass it in on the command line, and on completion of reading it in, compile it. You can find details on the requirements in the Hyperspec. 05:13:32 As well as more precise language than my loosey-goosey description. 05:14:01 H4ns: thanks, i have armcl working! :) 05:14:41 greetings; i've been reading Graham's On Lisp, and i keep finding references to non-existent functions in his code examples. i've found the hyperspec, but am having trouble searching it for some canonical list of standard functions. anyone have some advice on how best to track down standard functions...or, at least within On Lisp - identify functions that Graham uses which aren't standard? (short of invoking them in the REPL and getting fai 05:15:22 blar1: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 05:15:45 blar1: If you are using emacs, there is hyperspec-lookup, which will search for a symbol in the hyperspec. I have a copy locally. 05:15:51 ah ha! 05:16:20 DoctorDude: nobody talks of "lisp interpreter". Haven't you remarked that we say "lisp implementation"? 05:16:47 also the conkeror web browser has a clhs webjump that will search in the hyperspec 05:16:56 pavelpenev: i think i'm just going to need to scrape that symbol list and store it locally 05:17:23 don't want to get into any debates, but i stick with vim 05:17:49 blar1: sudo apt-get install hyperspec will install a local copy 05:18:01 nifty! 05:18:20 and if vim doesn't have a way to search it, than I would be extremely surprised 05:18:31 DoctorDude: there is a function called "compile". If the REPL doesn't compile, then you can call (compile 'function-name) to replace function-name with its compilation. there's also "compile-file" to make a compiled equivalent to a file for loading. 05:18:33 i'll have to look into it 05:19:02 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 05:19:14 pjb: I've seen that use of language before, I'll remember to disregard it... 05:19:22 has anyone compiled some map of the non-standard functions that Graham references, linking them to standard functions? 05:19:44 Bike: Good to know, thanks :) 05:19:45 blar1: if you just need a list of standard functions you could do (do-symbols (x :cl) (when (fboundp x) (print x))) 05:19:50 or is there at least some way of looking up what those functions are? googling has failed me thus far 05:20:05 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 05:20:16 Bike: that wouldn't return the list of standard functions. 05:20:27 1- use do-external-symbols. 05:20:32 blar1: can you give an example of one? 05:20:39 pnathan: sec 05:20:52 2- almost all the symbols exported from CL can be fbound. Notably, macros are fbound, and special operators can be fbound. 05:21:20 (do-external-symbols (x :cl) (when (and (fboundp x) (not (macro-function x)) (not (special-operator-p x))) (print x)))? 05:21:27 Yes 05:21:33 pnathan: ch 2.8, pg 23 05:21:41 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:45 I suppose you'd also want them alphabetized or something. eh. 05:21:48 the our-lenght function calls (rec (lst acc)) 05:21:51 I'm going to head off for the night, thanks to all for the help. 05:21:54 (rec) is not a standard symbol 05:22:32 symbol lookup isn't so much what i'm after as some way of understanding what the functions Graham is referencing were intended to do, so that i can in turn understand his code examples 05:22:36 -!- DoctorDude [~Jake@144.26.129.2] has left #lisp 05:22:45 can't very well makes sense of code that calls non-existent functions ;) 05:22:47 All right - 05:22:48 blar1: rec is defined by labels 05:22:55 labels defines a nested function REC 05:23:03 ah ha!! 05:23:13 He doesn't explain that? 05:23:20 i must have missed that 05:23:39 LABELS and FLET define nested functions. LABELS allows a recursive function, FLET doesn't. See 2.7 05:23:43 ok, so perhaps a symbol lookup was what i really needed, so i could understand what labels does :) 05:24:08 blar1: (documentation 'labels 'function) may or may not have helped 05:24:50 blar1: http://www.xach.com/clhs will search the hyperspec also 05:25:05 bike: gah. gnu lisp returns nil to (documentation 'labels 'function) 05:25:12 right, may not then. 05:25:25 Go for the CLHS. 05:25:39 Side note, are you using GCL? I don't think that's usually recommended for use for anything but Maxima. 05:25:50 gcl? 05:26:05 gnu cl = gcl 05:26:13 There are two GNU-related lisp implementations, it gets a bit confusing. 05:26:19 clisp is also a gnu project 05:26:21 ah; yes then; using gcl on my winbox; sbcl on my linux box 05:26:32 blar1: why not use ccl everywhere? 05:26:35 or clisp. 05:26:56 clisp wasn't giving me very informative compile errors 05:27:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 05:27:15 googling turned up sbcl as being more informative 05:27:48 'course, sbcl required some finagling to get a decent repl, but it's working nicely now 05:27:50 blar1: I find On Lisp not an easy book to grasp as a newbie. 05:28:04 blar1: sbcl runs on windows, but iirc threads are experimental there 05:28:13 didi: you said it. Practical Common Lisp is much easier to get into 05:28:25 blar1: Indeed. 05:28:31 pavel: i had some issue compiling sbcl in cygwin, so stuck with clisp 05:29:00 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 05:29:16 PCL is a great book. :) 05:29:38 pnathan: i'm really enjoying the practicals 05:29:50 Chapter 3 is great. :^) 05:30:07 but neither PCL or on lisp have format and loop portrayed as bums in a cartoon :) 05:30:29 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:05 pavel: oh? 05:31:13 is that in LOL? 05:31:25 blar1: yes 05:31:49 haha; figured i'd get through PCL at least before even trying to tackle that one 05:33:38 -!- anon119 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:33:45 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:36:07 time for sleep; thanks for the help everyone! 05:36:19 -!- blar1 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now known as tomaw 10:54:02 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:36 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-194.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:39 -!- amng [~naghizade@188.245.192.208] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:57:37 chitofan [dcff02ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.171] has joined #lisp 10:59:47 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:59 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 11:00:47 hi, can anyone guide me where to download scheme for windows to do sicp exercises? this url http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ doesnt work 11:01:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:02:26 http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/stable.pkg/9.1.1/mit-scheme-9.1.1-i386-win32.exe ? 11:02:49 i got it now, i dont know why link wasnt working earlier 11:02:51 thanks anyway 11:03:06 what do you mean, "doesn't work"? invalid CSS, doesn't load, link wrong? works for me. 11:03:13 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:04:48 404 error 11:04:52 earlier 11:05:08 jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:05 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.183.33] has left #lisp 11:07:28 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:28 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:12 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:11:30 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:14:07 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:14:10 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:16:37 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:16:51 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:18:32 -!- justinmcp 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quit [Excess Flood] 12:21:15 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:54 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-189.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:22:00 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:12 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 12:24:59 jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has joined #lisp 12:25:46 mgccl [~mgccl@ool-18be0b94.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:16 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:26 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 12:30:08 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:37:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:44:51 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:47:56 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:10 -!- `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:51:07 hi 12:51:25 please I need a tutorial for libusb under Lisp... 12:51:27 thanks 12:51:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@232.Red-83-50-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:53:45 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:53:52 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:54:45 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 13:00:10 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:58 -!- mgccl [~mgccl@ool-18be0b94.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:03:16 seabass [~seabass@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:34 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 13:03:58 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:06:32 Posterdati: you want to build a CFFI binding? 13:07:11 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 13:07:28 madnificent: no, he wants to use one, guided by a tutorial 13:10:08 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-194.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:11:09 madnificent: no just only use libusb 13:13:28 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:14 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 13:16:46 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:20:42 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@82.137.11.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:22:08 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:29 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:26:56 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:29:11 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-189.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:29:35 /join #hg 13:30:01 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-114-173.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 13:30:17 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-173.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:45 urandom__ [~user@p54B0E4F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:10 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:53 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:02 -!- ConstantineXVI [Constantin@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:feae:8909] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:32:48 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:33:16 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:07 add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-127-166.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:37:37 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:04 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 13:38:05 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has joined #lisp 13:38:07 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-114-207.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-173.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:41:57 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 13:43:00 ah cool, didn't notice we had a binding to libusb 13:43:41 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-114-207.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 13:44:03 porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 13:44:15 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:44:19 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 13:44:24 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:30 -!- porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:46:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:47:23 harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:49:37 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:47 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 13:53:16 (morning 'lisp) 13:53:51 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:54 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 13:56:52 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.28.41] has joined #lisp 13:57:47 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:01:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:03:59 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:21 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:00 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 14:05:30 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.28.41] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 14:07:00 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:58 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:39 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.111.218] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:26:01 does anyone have code to dynamically define postmodern dao classes from the database schema? 14:26:04 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:32 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:27:17 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:52 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:29:56 Greetings lispers 14:34:05 H4ns: not exactly, but fridge is related 14:34:35 H4ns: it doesn't build postmodern dao classes (i should've known better) 14:34:38 hello ThomasH 14:35:11 madnificent: not sure about dao classes. i have not used them in the past, but i thought i might just use them for something that infers classes from the schema 14:35:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:35:45 madnificent: i'm looking at the fridge readme now. the code examples are not readable really. maybe you can put them between ```? 14:36:03 H4ns: i thought postmodern tried to work in the inverse direction. my limited understanding at the time made me write fridge. but i don't know if i'd advise it for any serious use 14:36:12 (it's stable, but it lacks features) 14:36:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:36:33 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:36:48 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:51 madnificent: i basically want to avoid having to express the schema in two places, the sql script that creates it and the class definitions that i use to access it. 14:37:13 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 14:37:14 and then, i need to have some support for schema evolution a.k.a. migrations 14:38:16 thinking about it, automated migrations are probably easier when the schema is expressed in lisp rather than in sql, so i'll go that way. 14:38:19 H4ns: i think postmodern allows you to write the schema from a set of class definitions. but i doubt it supports nice schema evolution. I'll check for fridge's documentation. (also, are you sure you want to have an SQL backend, bknr.datastore is a gazilion times faster) 14:38:40 it does not support any incremental schema changes, just the initial definition. 14:38:43 H4ns: i used cl-migrations for the migrations, which means the migrations were expressed in sql 14:39:13 hm. bknr.datastore, also not a totally bad idea. could be mine, actually. 14:39:55 -!- cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:40:47 H4ns: in blogworks i noticed a gigantic speedup by using bknr.datastore 14:40:52 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.132.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 i like the idea, really. thanks for pointing me back to my own dog food :) 14:41:44 thanks for sharing it in the first place 14:43:52 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:44:31 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:44:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:03 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 Interesting, github was recognizing mathjax in project wiki pages as recently as yesterday, but does not seem to be doing it today. 14:46:28 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:54 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:51 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:55:30 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:57:13 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:58:03 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:58:24 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:05 aslan69 [~aslan69@67.51.189.130] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@67.51.189.130] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:18 leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has joined #lisp 15:00:09 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 15:00:34 -!- jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:00:51 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:05:48 -!- naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:08:07 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:30 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:08:48 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-34.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:54 <3 quicklisp 15:13:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:54 o happy day, nothing is more broken than usual today 15:14:23 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:41 H4ns: i wrote sql2sexp and sexp2sql for our needs. we used it to migrate from mysql to pg and oracle and now to run automated upgrades. i'll ask lichtblau about publishing it 15:15:59 hlavaty: thanks! 15:18:10 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:25 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-53-31.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:40 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.238] has joined #lisp 15:21:18 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:38 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:25:29 here` [~user@116.24.103.230] has joined #lisp 15:26:09 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:28:20 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:34 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:32 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-45.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:44 Xach: do you have a list of all package names and nicknames used in quicklisp? 15:38:07 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:38:08 Is it possible to do (deftype bounded-string (lower upper) ...) which defines a type whose length is between lower and upper, without using ARRAY or VECTOR type specifiers? My first attempt was to do (and string (satisfies length-bounded)) or so, but length-bounded must be a symbol, and I couldn't think of a way to lexically capture LOWER and UPPER. 15:38:24 defines a string type whose* 15:39:29 H4ns: i think i did at one point but do not right now 15:39:42 H4ns: i think i can generate a list with not too much effort 15:40:06 I don't think it's possible because LENGTH-BOUNDED must be a global function 15:40:09 Xach: if there is a way to check out all of quicklisp, i would do it myself as well. 15:41:38 H4ns: https://github.com/xach/qlmapper/ is a framework for that kind of work 15:41:58 H4ns: however, unless you have installed a lot of specific foreign libraries you are not likely to be able to load everything. 15:42:24 hm. well, if it is easy for you, such a list would be great 15:42:38 -!- here` [~user@116.24.103.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:05 this would reduce the risk associated with adding packages or package nicknames slightly 15:43:06 here` [~user@116.24.103.230] has joined #lisp 15:44:04 yes 15:45:43 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-34.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:46:34 If I read-sequence from a stream into an (unsigned-byte 8) array, how would I reuse that buffer with (with-input-from-string)? that complains that the array is not a string. 15:46:55 flip214: (apropos "octets-to-string") 15:47:36 Say there are several packages with the same name to do approximately the same thing.(A far-fetched situation, right?) Someone wants to try out the different packages with the same name to see which one they prefer. Should Quicklisp facilitate this in any way or should the package management be left entirely to the user? 15:47:46 H4ns: thanks, that's from babel, right? no way with standard cl? 15:48:12 flip214: the standard does not deal with encodings, so no. 15:48:23 ThomasH: project or package? 15:48:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:31 H4ns: I don't this is what I need - I want to (read-byte) from the new stream 15:49:13 Xach: Several separate projects, that do roughly the same thing, and use the same package name. 15:49:14 ie. I've got a midi-file, read a chunk (by defined size), and then want to parse the contents of that chunk - using standard end-of-file condition. 15:49:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:27 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:41 H4ns: the qlmapper job is churning away. should have an answer in a few hours. 15:49:53 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 jr 15:50:33 else I'd have to count the bytes read and look for the correct end 15:50:33 wrong buffer 15:50:35 it will not be completely authoritative 15:50:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:51 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.216] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:56 flip214: so you don't want to have a character stream, but an octet stream. flexi-streams has that. 15:51:57 if looking for all package names, the foreign library problem may be worked around by looking for all (defpackage ...) forms in the code? 15:52:00 Xach: cool, thanks 15:52:15 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:16 of course, some may create packages other way, not only by defpackage 15:52:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:52:25 antonv: roughly but not thoroughly. make-package or macros could be a problem. 15:52:38 ikki [~ikki@189.195.16.187] has joined #lisp 15:53:19 Xach: yes, but results of looking for (defpackage) may improve the results, it the foreign libraries will prevent some of packages to load. Or you have all these foreign libraries installed? 15:54:06 antonv: everything in quicklisp basically builds because xach builds everything :) 15:54:20 antonv: i have them all installed on a special server 15:54:26 the Quicklisp Build Monster 15:54:40 yep 15:54:58 i can lease cpu time to h4ns for this query, rates are quite reasonable 15:55:13 and his employer has deep pockets and a liberal expense policy 15:55:17 I BTW collected build results from some other compilers than SBCL. Now learning to work with the results 15:55:46 H4ns: with-input-from-sequence, thanks a lot. 15:55:53 I ignore the foreign libraries problem for now 16:00:56 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:34 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-15.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:35 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 16:04:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:27 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 16:05:24 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-194.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:06:25 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-159.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:17 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:41 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:12:20 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:15:02 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:27 fg__ [6014337e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.20.51.126] has joined #lisp 16:15:34 -!- fg__ [6014337e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.20.51.126] has left #lisp 16:16:50 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-159.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16:51 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 16:18:48 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:42 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:10 *Xach* is concerned about the rift between cl-syntax and named-readtables 16:25:13 'the rift' ? 16:26:52 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 16:27:31 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:32:21 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-50-47-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 ykm [~yash@124.155.255.216] has joined #lisp 16:37:30 -!- chitofan [dcff02ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:41:08 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:20 -!- leoncamel [~user@219.143.149.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:41:52 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:02 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:43:14 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:56 jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 16:44:10 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:11 -!- jcazevedo_ is now known as jcazevedo 16:45:02 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:56 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:31 -!- here` [~user@116.24.103.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:48:21 nha [~prefect@g225004037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:30 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:50:40 Xach: I was thinking that, too. I was a bit concerned about Haskells $ making it into CL at first, but cl-syntax distracted me from that. 16:51:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:53:04 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:53:04 -!- ykm [~yash@124.155.255.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:23 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.111.218] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 17:00:17 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:00:21 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BCB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:01:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.16.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:07:40 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:09:08 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:09:22 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:10:38 H4ns: i have a big fat raw packages.sexp 17:10:42 H4ns: i'll let you sort it out 17:10:50 sure, thanks! 17:11:08 http://xach.com/tmp/packages.sexp.gz 17:11:51 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 17:12:48 H4ns: each sexp is roughly the result of (list-all-packages) after loading each system in quicklisp 17:13:39 -!- bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:15:43 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-238-71.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:28 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:32 Xach: the list is not complete, sadly 17:16:38 i can't find "POMO" for instance 17:16:43 oh, d'oh 17:16:46 i didn't do nicknames, sorry. 17:16:57 i will redo 17:16:57 uh. ok. gah. :/ 17:17:12 sorry for not stating that explicitly as a requirement 17:17:14 You were clear in your request and I just got distracted and did it wrong 17:17:21 ah, ok. 17:18:00 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.26.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:13 if you feel like it, run it again. but in the mean time, i do not actually need the data anymore as i'm not planning to add a nickname "STORE" for "BKNR.DATASTORE" 17:18:31 heh 17:18:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-227-15.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:18 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:11 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 17:26:45 bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:35:08 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:46 -!- Nisstyre_ is now known as Nisstyre 17:36:14 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.58.91.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 17:38:49 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:00 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:39:41 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-241-127.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:40:01 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:37 garryzw [~gary@37.244.221.175] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 17:44:28 Hello, I have two questions about vectors. If i decrement a fill-pointer and then later increment it back am i guaranteed that elemens will remain intact? also is there a way to check how many elements i have pushed to vector? (not total size) 17:45:39 garryzw: the second is #'length iirc. not sure about the first, you can make it 'fit' the size, after which it certainly won't be the same, but i don't know if the CLHS says something about the underlying semantics (from which you could derive what you want to know now) 17:46:42 Hey, one can search for CL stuff using !lisp stuff in DDG. 17:47:05 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:10 garryzw: changing the fill pointer has no effect on the elements of the vector 17:47:24 it is not length. If i push three elements and then decrement fill-pointer length would be 2 not 3. This is assuming that 3rd element is still guaranteed to be there 17:47:43 garryzw: some people expect e.g. vector-pop to make the "popped" element garbage, but it does not. 17:48:16 Xach ok good. That is what i hoped it would do. It lets me easily implement undo/redo 17:48:26 garryzw: if you want to find out how many things are in a vector with a fill pointer you have to follow some kind of consistent practice to do it. 17:49:13 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:49:39 superjudge [~superjudg@h-85-24-130-4.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 garryzw: For undo/redo you usually use either a stack (emacs) or a tree (vim) or two stacks (everything else from notepad to Eclipse). Your solution would be a unique one :) 17:52:23 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-blbifvvqlyahuxla] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:52:31 I could use a plain list, but then elements would be in reversed order 17:52:59 didi: yes, but it's not perfect. we should add a clhs search through l1sp.org 17:54:14 add^_^ [~add^_@m213-101-203-162.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:00 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56:08 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-112-105.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:21 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-127-166.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:21 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 17:58:55 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-238-71.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:04 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:00:58 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:01:15 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:01:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:26 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:58 rpg [~rpg@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 whiteCatRunning [~user@cpe-184-58-128-22.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:21 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 -!- seabass [~seabass@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:42 I have been testing a library on clisp, and it looks to me as if LOAD does not accept a logical pathname as an argument (in violation of the ANSI spec). Anyone know if that's true? 18:10:55 (load ) is failing when (load (translate-logical-pathname )) succeeds. 18:11:55 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-228-88.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:55 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-112-105.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:04 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:16:39 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:52 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 18:17:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:36 stokachu [~user@canonical/stokachu] has joined #lisp 18:17:36 rpg: did you use -ansi? 18:18:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:18:19 Xach: no didn't even imagine one needed to... 18:18:25 ha ha ha, new to clisp i see 18:18:54 Xach: Yeah, just trying to help someone else get a piece of software working on it. 18:19:17 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441543.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:19:17 *rpg* finds even with -ansi there are exciting differences of interpretation 18:19:20 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:19:31 Xach: Is there a place where various non-ANSI clisp behaviours are documented? I don't use that implementation but might have to one day. 18:19:36 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:19 antoszka: the manual is pretty good 18:21:02 OK. 18:21:20 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-229-49.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:33 -!- stokachu [~user@canonical/stokachu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:35 seabass [~seabass@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:49 stokachu [~user@canonical/stokachu] has joined #lisp 18:23:55 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-228-88.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:31 I posted an article about CL types, if anyone is interested: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1495 18:24:34 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-229-49.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:54 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:27:28 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 18:29:27 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:30:08 . 18:31:17 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:48 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 18:34:59 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 18:36:52 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441543.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 Quadrescence: there are ways to do parameterized types, right? 18:42:22 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:43:40 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@h-85-24-130-4.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:43:54 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:44:07 With your tree example, you can have your defstruct be unparameterized, but then use deftype to restrict what is in the node and subtrees 18:44:59 Quadrescence: what is the difference between projection and mapping (of a function) ? 18:45:04 dataJ [~david@cpc4-with5-2-0-cust838.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:13 jasom, and how would you make that restriction? using SATISFIES? 18:45:29 pnpuff, a projection is a mapping 18:47:20 Quadrescence: yup 18:47:30 jasom, you could make your DEFTYPE check that the nodes are of a specific type, but you couldn't parameterize your DEFTYPE with a type, and check the nodes of the tree with SATISFIES since SATISFIES must refer to a global function definition 18:47:44 ikki [~ikki@189.195.16.187] has joined #lisp 18:48:16 and doing the above is just as good as -- if not worse -- specifying the :TYPE field in the DEFSTRUCT 18:51:21 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.58.91.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:41 yeah, you're right. If you put a type-specifier in the node itself then satisfies would work, but that seems wrong. 18:54:05 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:55:59 and also kills flexibility 18:56:54 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.85.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:58:46 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.58.91.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:06 so a projection which maps a sphere into a cube what is? : a map or a projection? ;) 19:00:00 pnpuff, that's a map/function. A projection is one that takes a "part" of something. Mapping a cube to a square is a projection (it takes away the third dimension) 19:02:17 H4ns: fwiw http://xach.com/tmp/packages-and-nicknames.sexp.gz 19:02:34 fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 -!- fogus is now known as `fogus 19:02:51 Xach: just for the fun of it, i'll add the two nicknames :) 19:02:57 Xach: (if they're not in use) 19:03:01 well, or maybe not. 19:03:05 -!- dataJ is now known as dataJJ 19:03:13 -!- dataJJ is now known as dataJ 19:04:22 then, now that i know that they're not used, maybe i should just claim them so that i don't end up with something silly, like :st0r3 and :1nd1c35 19:04:35 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.58.91.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:04:45 yes but this is no conformal and no area-preserving. 19:07:12 pnpuff, how is that relevant? 19:07:21 -!- garryzw [~gary@37.244.221.175] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:07:36 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:10:37 aphylactic assertion! :) 19:11:33 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:15:49 flanfl [~flanfl@210.194.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/+2TK5 19:18:02 dennis_ [~dennis@ppp-46-244-192-221.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:05 just because you said it's not possible, not because I think it's a good idea 19:22:09 -!- seabass [~seabass@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: I'm out] 19:22:51 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:03 strg [~strg@a89-182-4-186.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:25 -!- dennis_ [~dennis@ppp-46-244-192-221.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:24:53 jasom, I'll agree that that is a "solution" but it's so far away from practical (and perhaps even dangerous: namespace pollution, regenerating the defun each time) that I'd still consider it not possible, but perhaps I should qualify that with "within reason" 19:25:14 jasom, actually... I'm not sure that solution is correct 19:26:27 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-68-66.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:27:42 jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:47 jasom, actually I see no issue 19:28:37 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:03 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 19:33:28 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:32 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:33:33 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:33:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 19:34:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 bitonic` [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:59 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:40:13 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:41:54 jasom, I've modified the post, at the bottom, to at least include that note 19:41:58 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:43:03 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:46:18 -!- stokachu [~user@canonical/stokachu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:39 stokachu [~user@canonical/stokachu] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 -!- whiteCatRunning [~user@cpe-184-58-128-22.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:47:08 -!- stokachu [~user@canonical/stokachu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:07 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:50:40 whiteCatRunning [~user@cpe-184-58-128-22.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:51:03 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:47 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:57:32 -!- dataJ [~david@cpc4-with5-2-0-cust838.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:58:49 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:11 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:20 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 20:00:35 -!- bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:00:50 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 20:01:18 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:26 -!- Nisstyre is now known as Nisstyre-laptop 20:03:01 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:04:23 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:11:23 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:12:51 sloanr [~user@173-165-249-65-minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:53 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:17:41 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:10 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 Quadrescence: and FWIW the compiler is allowed to assume that the defun never changes 20:22:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:02 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 20:23:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:24:32 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:55 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 20:32:04 only mention of Zeilberger it's remarkable! good work!! 20:32:48 kanedank [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:59 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:34:49 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:58 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:36:35 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:31 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 20:39:17 Nauntilus [~NickServ@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:19 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:16 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: pnpuff] 20:42:46 jdmssmkr [~user@78-23-137-2.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:42:46 -!- Nauntilus [~NickServ@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:58 Nauntilus [~NickServ@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:15 -!- jdmssmkr [~user@78-23-137-2.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 20:47:21 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:49:33 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:54 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:54:44 -!- rpg [~rpg@c-98-229-120-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:43 mritz_ [~textual@97.65.251.170] has joined #lisp 20:55:45 porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 20:55:45 -!- porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:59 porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 20:56:27 -!- porron [~porron@190.57.227.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:53 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:59:57 hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 *hypnocat* just discovered nyquist.. an old lisp music composition/synthesis language.. 21:00:58 it uses xlisp 21:01:44 i've been looking for some scheme/lisp music composition languages for a while.. and most of the ones i've found are broken in some way 21:01:55 so i'm excited to find one that actually seems to work 21:01:59 hypnocat clm? 21:02:52 i haven't tried clm yet 21:03:18 i did try grace/common-music but it had problems playing over jack 21:03:24 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:03:55 actually, i had the same problem with nyquist.. but i finally implemented a workaround that might work with grace/common-music too... so i might look in to that again 21:04:06 and need to check out clm too 21:04:21 unfortunatley, i don't have a mac, or i'd try impromptu.. which looks really cool 21:05:02 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.108.141.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 21:05:14 hi 21:05:35 when you program in slime, how do you search for string in whole source tree? 21:05:53 M-x rgrep? 21:06:06 i sometimes use tags-search and tags-query-replace 21:06:54 hypnocat: There is Overtone . 21:07:40 looks interesting 21:07:43 but i don't know clojure 21:08:01 however, i have been meaning to take a closer look at supercollider 21:09:19 didi, i don't have M-x regexp 21:09:37 unfortunately, its standard c/c++ syntax has kind of scared me off.. i found some old scheme interface to it, but it was broken 21:09:58 antonv: It should be `rgrep', not 'regexp'. 21:10:01 H4ns: thanks, don't know about TAGS at all, reading about it 21:10:48 hypnocat: Overtone's page says that it provides "A Clojure API to the SuperCollider synthesis engine" 21:10:59 yep 21:11:26 didi: ah, thans 21:11:26 i don't know clojure.. though learning it would certainly be more appealing the using the standard c/c++ supercollider interface 21:11:57 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:12:02 but for now, i'd just prefer to find some straight lisp/scheme music composition languages instead 21:12:23 hypnocat: Ah, by "Lisp" you meant "Common Lisp". 21:12:26 "lisp" as in common lisp or something close enough 21:12:31 yeah 21:13:07 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:25 Common Lisp is the only Lisp! 21:13:27 *vsync* grins 21:13:42 don't mean to start a flamewar over whether clojure is really a lisp.. 21:14:10 It's funny to read the messages for circa 82 saying that CL was not a Real Lisp. 21:14:17 s/for/from 21:14:30 why did they think that? 21:14:54 "lisp is not a friggin commitee language!!elf" 21:15:12 hypnocat: Because of things like variable scoping. 21:16:30 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:16:33 strange 21:16:42 ooold lisps had only dynamic scope 21:18:32 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:18:51 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:55 what about sexp's, prefix notation, the repl, garbage collection, lambda, etc? 21:21:42 did common lisp not share those with the rest of the lisps at the time? 21:22:18 The devil is in the deals, I suppose. I don't know. 21:22:24 s/deals/details 21:24:31 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:25:26 speaking of real lisp, what does #lisp think about shen? i think about taking a closer look but the license is pretty scary "don't break the spec or we kill you" 21:26:04 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 -!- mritz_ [~textual@97.65.251.170] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:30:14 urandom__: That's going to be a hard license for them to enforce. But, I guess you could argue they'll have a lot of time on their hands in jail to develop it. 21:30:28 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:30:33 urandom__: the syntax looks baroque. 21:31:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012733.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:20 *hypnocat* agrees 21:31:35 prxq: can you be more specific what you find baroque about it? 21:32:12 mritz_ [~textual@97.65.251.170] has joined #lisp 21:33:45 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-203-162.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:34:30 -!- nha [~prefect@g225004037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Peace, Love, Linux] 21:37:17 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 -!- alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:39:15 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:39:25 hi 21:43:55 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@210.194.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:11 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.108.141.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:19 -!- howeyc_ [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:54:35 howeyc [~howeyc@199.229.255.169] has joined #lisp 21:58:21 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-241-127.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:58:23 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-191-169.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:57 -!- mritz_ [~textual@97.65.251.170] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:01:37 pinterface1 [~pinterfac@173-22-15-5.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:50 -!- pinterface1 is now known as pinterface 22:02:01 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.132.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:03:54 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:04:00 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-191-169.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:06:29 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:58 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:08:56 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:55 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:12:37 mritz_ [~textual@97.65.251.170] has joined #lisp 22:12:49 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:13:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:14:59 __pr0t0__ [~pr0t0@unaffiliated/pr0t0/x-5011569] has joined #lisp 22:15:24 would anyone here happen to have the example source code from "Notes from the Metalevel" ? 22:15:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:30 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:20:47 -!- mritz_ [~textual@97.65.251.170] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:21:23 sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:23:35 -!- whiteCatRunning [~user@cpe-184-58-128-22.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:24:43 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:11 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:00 H4ns: when tags-search found first match, how do you move to the next match? I am trying M-,, 22:27:17 but emacs prints message: "pop-tag-mark: No previous locations for find-tag invocation" 22:28:20 jeti` [~user@p548EA9D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:10 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:30 -!- sloanr [~user@173-165-249-65-minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:35:32 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 -!- Forty-Two is now known as Forty-3 22:37:11 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:41:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:26 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.155.124.238] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:07 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:35 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:54:32 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:52 hello all 22:56:32 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 22:57:01 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:58:12 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:02:09 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:09 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:02:09 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 23:02:48 antonv: M-, is bound to tags-loop-continue in my emacs and that usually works. 23:03:13 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:30 ah, probably my M-, is bound by slime 23:04:49 invoking explicitly tags-loop-continue works for me too 23:05:35 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:53 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:27 could someone help me deal with pseudo-quotes in strings i'm trying to concatenate into lists of words-as-symbols? 23:16:47 If you asked a specific question, perhaps. 23:17:06 right now i'm just doing (read-from-string (concatenate 'string "(" (read-line) ")")) 23:17:52 pjb: actually i have a stupid function before (read-line), (commas-to-tildes (read-line)) which just substitutes tildes for commas in the string but i don't want to do it that way if i don't have to 23:18:48 pjb: the first form i wrote - is there any character other than comma that would break it? 23:19:05 I'd do something like: (mapcar 'intern (split-sequence #\space (substitute-if #\space (lambda (ch) (find ch "characters-you-don-t-want-such-as-comma-quote-etc") (read-line))))) 23:19:45 (mapcar 'intern (split-sequence #\space (substitute-if #\space (lambda (ch) (find ch ",.!?\"'-_") (read-line))))) 23:20:01 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 oh. that's pretty sexy. the thing is that i am parsing english for a chatbot & it needs to deal with punctuation at some point so i don't wanna get rid of it completely. 23:21:04 Sure. Probably you should write a tokenizer. 23:21:26 pjb: a double space would break my form too wouldn't it. 23:21:42 a tokenizer. i have to look that up 23:21:43 http://code.google.com/p/sparser/source/browse/trunk/Sparser/#Sparser%2Fcode%2Fs 23:22:01 split-sequence takes a :remove-empty-subseqs t argument too. 23:22:07 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:22:28 nydel: you shouldn't really use READ for anything but reading lisp. better to tokenize it yourself 23:23:13 Bike: pjb: seems "tokenize" was the idea of which i was unaware probably? 23:23:57 yes. it just means dividing input into more computer-friendly tokens 23:24:27 which you were doing by READing it into a list of symbols, but there are better representations for English 23:25:54 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:27:32 do either of y'all know of a functioning lisp chat-bot thing i could look at & play with? if there is anything impressive and available, not eliza-based etc? 23:28:07 nydel: the sources of most bots here are available. 23:28:11 minion: where are your sources? 23:28:12 behind you! 23:28:17 minion: sources 23:28:17 sources: minion-sources: http://www.cliki.net/minion 23:28:20 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:28:39 and yes, it's not impressive at all 23:28:45 :-) 23:29:16 hah wait is that sarcasm? 23:29:38 No, I misread you, you want something impressive. I don't find minion to be impressive, chat-wise. 23:29:49 I don't think minion really constitutes a chatbot 23:30:23 And I've never done anything more chatbotty than eliza, so no I don't know of anything, sorry. 23:31:31 Bike: it puzzles me that there isn't a wildly-successful chatterbottle yet. 23:31:36 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-228-182.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:31:53 nydel: we don't really know how to do them yet. 23:32:33 nydel: have a look at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/robitron/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loebner_Prize 23:33:09 nydel: chatbots aren't that interesting. too many real humans around to make them very economical :P 23:33:41 nydel: you can check the "impressiveness" of the state of the art at http://people.exeter.ac.uk/km314/loebner/index.php 23:33:46 pjb: i think i do, is why i'm trying. i think with a fixed list of about 78 ideas, a bot could classify & appropriately respond to anything. but i'm probably an idiot. 23:34:01 ok i will look at that (all that) 23:34:22 nydel: perhaps not. There have been several works reducing ontologies to a small number of concepts. 23:34:44 I was working on a "controlled markov chains" idea, unfortunately at the time I was green and picked C++ 23:34:49 pjb: i'd love to know what the concept sets were & how they were arrived at. 23:35:28 nydel: see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Plutchik#Plutchik.27s_wheel_of_emotions 23:35:54 i only have 78 ideas and i have to put everything into those terms (or trees of them) in order to interact with another person. 23:36:13 i have autism by the by. it's common i think for some autistics to do something like that. 23:36:47 nydel: people have been taking that approach since oh... the 13th century at least. hasn't really panned out yet 23:36:47 nydel: or http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/blf10/Links/stories.html 23:37:00 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:37:10 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-141-187.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:37:35 Bike: that's discouraging but very good to know 23:37:48 or pjb could pull out a much earlier example. convenient. 23:38:12 nydel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro_(artificial_language) another 23:38:15 my archetype set is better though 23:38:27 way better. it's got ideas i haven't had yet. 23:38:31 Well, in the 13th century, they hadn't computers to dynamically recombine atomic ideas in complex trees 23:38:54 Yah, all Llull made was some disks. Pretty good attempt considering. 23:38:59 but this is AWESOME. i love that you guys not only know exactly what i'm talking about but instantly have the most relevant links possible 23:39:06 seriously i just adore this channel. 23:39:33 Lull's work is certainly interesting. 23:39:57 The guy too was quite a character :-) 23:43:08 it would be interesting. to see some chat-bot for a conlang like lojban 23:43:26 nydel: also have a look at communication logic. Thinking is modelized there as telling to oneself. http://www.illc.uva.nl/Research/Reports/PP-2005-09.text.pdf 23:43:29 hah a question though. how do you guys get anything done? i mean as soon as i say what i'm doing you guys have very very good reasons for me to tear it down & start in a different way etc.. do you ever just leave that for later & try to make the thing you had in mind, or does that never work? 23:44:05 nydel: the trick is to read a lot of papers to know well the current state of the art. 23:44:28 Happily, we only have about 60 years worth of research to study, so far :-) 23:44:44 :) 23:44:55 and more happily, almost all the CS research is available thru the Internet, not so in most other domains. 23:45:03 oh this last pdf is really interesting 23:45:20 <|3b|> also, /somebody/ needs to try the things everybody 'knows' are wrong once in a while, or we won't make progress :) 23:45:29 exactly. 23:45:58 that's true, i didn't even think about how i take that for granted (that cs is so close to internet that it all accumulates & other fields don't get that luxury as much) 23:46:13 |3b|: thank you for that chime-in, very encouraging :) 23:46:23 conditions changes. With computers a million times more powerful, and memories and networks we didn't have 40 years ago, one can revisit most of the old research and ask oneself if there's not some forgotten pearl in there. 23:46:43 <_tca> yes pjb and other great tools we have like the AGPL that keep source code free for all to study 23:47:36 Indeed. While it may not be only a question of license, trying to find the source code for old research programs is often quite hard. 23:48:43 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:52:08 -!- sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:53:07 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:02 -!- Nauntilus [~NickServ@wsip-68-14-222-194.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:53 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 23:58:47 I've found that a markov chains model is a good probabilistic model for the language part. what i found really hard was a way to "reason"about the input and control the text generation from the markov model 23:59:36 -!- __pr0t0__ [~pr0t0@unaffiliated/pr0t0/x-5011569] has quit [Quit: I quit.] 23:59:50 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]