00:00:51 "templates have anything to do with FP" - compile time pure-functional metaprogramming ; and many ways to emulate some FP features. you can do currying /partial apllcation/compose with templates. GCC always had 'typeof' but now with c++11 FP is quite a bit easier 00:01:10 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 00:04:25 cryptic: I expect you'll not need too much CL in-depth knowledge to learn AI. 00:05:07 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has joined #lisp 00:05:11 Unless you want to write an expert system that compiles its rules into lisp functions. 00:06:03 I hope it's not too much to learn 00:06:18 Nah, just a programming language. 00:06:23 It's not like French. 00:06:23 cryptic: It's a cultural shock at first. 00:06:25 or Chinese. 00:06:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:07:37 cryptic: But it's absolutely worth it. 00:07:54 learning FP is so worth it 00:08:11 cryptic: Lisp is multiparadigm. 00:08:18 cryptic: common lisp is multi-paradigm, you can write fortran in it :) 00:08:19 I have an awful parsing job I need to take care of, and it seems well-suited for that (specifically, XML) 00:08:20 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 00:08:29 like f2cl. 00:08:37 Also c, like Zeta-C or C-to-CL. 00:08:43 Also python, like cl-python. 00:08:44 etc. 00:11:56 ipmonger [~ipmonger@2001:470:8:d80:313c:ec25:ba80:20fb] has joined #lisp 00:12:47 cryptic: xml parsers are well-suited to parsing xml... 00:14:42 pkhuong: it's a special application of that. specifically, I'm looking to parse millions of xml files all defined by a single DTD 00:14:48 cryptic: http://www.cliki.net/XML enjoy :) 00:15:03 So you could readthe DTD and generate a specific XML parser. 00:15:24 thanks pavelpenev 00:19:02 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-41-122.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 00:20:40 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:04 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:40 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:41 Jubb 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#lisp 01:09:03 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:13:38 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 01:19:52 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 01:19:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 01:19:52 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:21:41 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.252.89] has joined #lisp 01:28:26 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:28:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:28:58 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 01:29:00 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:29:13 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:23 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:34:54 alex_ [~alex@chinaoffice.travelfusion.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:17 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:44 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:51 cheyne [~cheyne@c-24-18-35-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:50 n00b6502, cryptic: what amazes me most about people using less expressive languages, is that they are willing to accept their old choice, as it is moving in (arguably) the right direction. whilst the solution is still 10 years ahead. picking that which goes in the right direction is only a sane option, if no option is available which has already arrived at the destination. (i admit, much of this is relative, my mind isn't 01:37:50 the moment, and there is a bit of frustration involved) 01:39:23 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.252.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41:14 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:42:02 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.252.89] has joined #lisp 01:42:12 good thing lispers are immune to such things and are well-aware of decades-old solutions to problems. 01:42:19 that's why I like lisp better than other languages. 01:45:29 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:46:10 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:20 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has joined #lisp 01:49:01 -!- jeti [~user@p548EADDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:49:36 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:49:39 sykopomp: and that is why we never duplicate anyone else's work... or wait 01:49:50 yeah, basically 01:49:53 Lisp is ideal. 01:50:28 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50:49 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:51:23 -!- cheyne [~cheyne@c-24-18-35-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:30 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:52:13 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:52:46 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:53:45 Lisp ideal? Come on. 01:54:35 Oh sorry, I forgot Racket is the ideal one these days. 01:54:38 silly me 01:56:02 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:36 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:57:49 Hi Fare, 01:57:49 sykopomp: defying reason is funny (burn) 01:58:01 can you recommend how to add an implementation string to asdf? 01:58:30 Allegro CL 9.0 linux x86 apparently has the same identification string in asdf for both smp and non-smp versions, 01:58:40 madnificent: (defyin reason () (funny (burn)))? 01:58:41 but the fasls are incompatible between those two versions 01:59:05 so we have to compute the ID string in a different way for those platforms, or ask Franz to change something in their *features* list 02:00:25 hm, apparently SLIME doesn't pick up definition sources for condition accessors? or that might be an sbcl thing. 02:03:42 Racket isn't quite ideal either, though it does get right a few things that CL hasn't (30 years of progress, you know), but is lacking some qualities in its implementation and coherence in some of its libraries. They prefer "get it done and move on" to getting it just right. 02:04:00 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:04:24 gendl: you need to upgrade to asdf 2.24 for a fix to this bug. 02:04:57 Ok, sorry, i should have upgraded to August Quicklisp before bothering this board 02:04:59 it's been reported already and fixed. 02:05:10 I assume August quicklisp will do the trick? 02:05:11 unhappily, August Quicklisp only has asdf 2.21 02:05:24 you can manually overwrite quicklisp's asdf with a more recent one. 02:05:37 which I recommend. 02:05:40 oh i saw something about that on planet lisp. 02:05:43 in your case, at least. 02:06:42 of course, right after I release 2.24, someone comes up with a bug report (for lispworks personal edition) and there goes 2.24.1 02:07:36 which only proves not many people are using lwper with asdf. 02:09:04 oh, the bug report was not a regression in 2.24? it was something they would have seen pre-2.24 in lwper? 02:09:05 Fare: Or not updating their systems too often. 02:09:05 -!- kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 02:10:17 i see the posting from Zach - for unrelated reasons, he apparently doesn't like to provide bleeding-edge asdf versions by default with Quicklisp. 02:10:28 His issue is with people depending on asdf as a bucket of utilities 02:10:47 i'm not exactly sure how that translates into his not wanting to provide latest asdf's with each month's Quicklisp... 02:11:31 but for problems within the operation of asdf in its routine tasks (like this smp/non-smp thingie), it sounds like it will require manual asdf updates for some time 02:12:18 "I can't point Quicklisp at a tar ball or git rep and just keep it up to date like other libraries" 02:13:20 presumably because he considers the risk too high that asdf will introduce a regression which breaks Quicklisp 02:14:50 but in general we are not supposed to depend on asdf as a bucket of utilities, so if we follow that directive, then it shouldn't be too risky to have cutting-edge asdf as the default 02:19:54 And in this case, I need to upgrade to latest asdf to fix an actual operational problem with the asdf fundamental to its use with Quicklisp, 02:20:39 and because Quicklisp is using an "old, apparently stable version" of asdf, there is also a risk that Quicklisp will break with the newer asdf. 02:21:25 But I suppose this risk is relatively small, because I assume the asdf maintainers are also Quicklisp users  02:21:57 so they should detect any QL incompatibility with latest asdf than the Quicklisp maintainers or any other Quicklisp users 02:21:58 right? 02:22:20 they probably would have seen it in lwper forever 02:22:29 at least, in lwper for windows 02:23:11 outside windows, probably since 2.017.26 02:23:54 well, yes and no. I don't use quicklisp as often as you'd think. 02:24:02 though I do once in a while 02:24:07 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:24:38 but I suppose other asdf users and co-maintainers use quicklisp. 02:24:42 more often than I do 02:25:03 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:16 Fare: are you aware of the "something better" than asdf that Xach is pining for? 02:25:24 is that zxcv? 02:25:24 no 02:25:37 I don't suppose Xach likes xcvb more than asdf. 02:26:07 and xcvb isn't quite as "stable" as asdf -- not on all the platforms that asdf supports, for sure. 02:26:07 I have very few if any issues with asdf... 02:26:22 you haven't used it enough :) 02:26:28 for me, I consider it a "set it & forget it" utility 02:27:12 you're not writing big enough systems, then 02:27:26 Gendl has its own lightweight system utility, which just recurses over directories and looks for a few optional control files to control load ordering etc. 02:27:40 We've been using that for about 10 years. 02:28:01 I just added a small utility to that system to emit .asd files instead of doing the actual compile & load on the fly using our system. 02:28:17 So now our system has morphed into pretty much just strictly a utility for emitting .asd files 02:28:24 I never touch any .asd files by hand, 02:28:44 just generate them directly from the codebase and the little control files 02:29:05 so in about 2 seconds we are asdf loadable and Quicklisp loadable 02:29:31 I think I'm writing big enough systems. 02:29:37 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:39 I'm just not writing convoluted enough systems. 02:30:08 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 02:30:10 maybe 02:30:29 asdf used to suck a lot. I think now it sucks less. 02:30:52 but it can't do many things I'd like. 02:31:15 some of the things I'd like to do better would require significant support from implementations (like "pure" compilation without side effects, even in presence of #. etc.) 02:31:36 so it sounds like you probably are on the same page with Xach 02:31:47 just nobody knows who would do the actual work to make the "something better" 02:33:52 p_l: that's what xcvb is about, btw 02:34:20 xcvb was designed to be that better thing. 02:34:44 ok i've got 2.24.1 here 02:34:49 through git clone 02:35:06 so 2.24.1 is not officially released? 02:35:52 superflit_ [~superflit@63-225-240-187.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:22 Fare: well, I kinda want support for certain features involved in my idea for other things as well :) 02:37:43 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-203-88.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:37:43 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 02:39:23 Oh, I see that when I do the Quicklisp setup on Allegro CL, it pulls the asdf.fasl from Allegro's code/ directory 02:39:42 not the asdf.lisp which is in the quicklisp/ directory 02:39:57 so apparently it doesn't matter what asdf.lisp Xach is shipping with Quicklisp 02:40:35 asdf really is something which has to be installed and managed separately from Quicklisp 02:40:41 at least on Allegro CL... 02:41:18 QL will pull *at least* its version 02:41:21 if there's higher... 02:41:39 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:07 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:42:27 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.18.143] has joined #lisp 02:42:37 p_l: what features? 02:42:59 gendl, unless you're using lwper, 2.24 and 2.24.1 are the same 02:43:29 but "released" looks like 2.23 02:43:40 gendl: where so? 02:43:47 I might have forgotten something 02:44:07 from http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#downloads 02:44:20 "download just the latest release source for asdf.lisp;" 02:44:28 I click that link of "asdf.lisp" 02:44:43 it gives me something which says 2.23 in the file header 02:45:28 should be updated now 02:45:29 thanks 02:45:42 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:46:50 Fare: something along the lines of .NET's "Application", i.e. multiple separate images within VM, which can be accessed through API etc. 02:47:15 it had somewhat more specific name, but it's been years since my use of it 02:48:26 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:01 -!- moore33 [~moore@17.185.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:51:13 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has joined #lisp 02:53:37 p_l: have you looked at Racket's guardians, spaces or whatever they call them? 02:53:58 what's wrong with processes? 02:54:04 short of a CL on CL, you won't have that kind of stuff in Lisp. 02:54:23 pkhuong, a bit heavy-weight, but nothing wrong, I believe. 02:54:31 Ok so the x.yy are released numbers, 02:54:38 x.yy.z are development 02:54:40 right? 02:54:45 bingo 02:54:47 that's a good system, I should use it. 02:55:24 it's documented somewhere in asdf.lisp 02:55:36 Fare: heavy-weight compared to what? threads? Linux doesn't think so ;) 02:56:12 pkhuong: green threads, language-enforced isolation. 02:56:50 and even in linux, processes are *slightly* heavier-weight than threads. 02:57:12 (and more than slightly if you exec after the fork) 02:58:40 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:59:45 pkhuong: ApplicationSpaces (that was the name, I think) was closer to opening a dummy process with debugger, then modifying it, stopping at will etc. 03:00:01 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Quit: Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.] 03:00:31 also allowed you to create a separate image, but still sharing GC etc. and well instrumented 03:00:45 which you could then make into executable to run later, iirc 03:02:38 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:52 moore33 [~moore@43.177.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:08 -!- benny [~user@i577A8AE5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:03 Fare: Ok i confirmed that 2.24.1 fixes the output-translations by making the implementation-string e.g. acl-9.0ms-linux-x86 03:04:44 anon119 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:46 -!- anon119 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:05:08 There is still an issue with Slime and the name it uses in ~/.slime/fasl/, but I will try to track that down myself and locate the Slime maintainers. 03:05:58 And my one other issue so far with Allegro CL 9.0 (both SMP and non-SMP) is with the Lift test harness 03:06:40 a compile fails with "Object cannot be written to a compiled file unless an applicable method is defined on make-load-form" 03:06:52 I will report this to the Lift development mailing list and to Franz... 03:08:12 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:09:17 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:12:08 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:17 -!- organixpear [~organixpe@96-42-14-128.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:13:52 gendl: Lift the test suite library ? 03:15:56 Yes, Lift the test suite library. 03:16:13 have you tried FiveAM ? 03:16:36 nope. is FiveAM the predominant test suite library now? 03:16:58 All our regression tests are currently in Lift, 03:17:24 I am under certain time constraints to get our system proved out under Allegro CL 9.0 64-bit SMP, 03:17:47 if possible I would like to see that happen before I start converting our regression tests to another test framework... 03:18:23 although I will certainly look at FiveAM as soon as I have time to come up for a breather 03:18:59 FiveAM is one of the most widely used(Xach probably has the exact numbers) and I'm on a mission to eradicate all other test suite libraries :) 03:19:34 if you try it and think it's missing some features, let me know 03:19:57 i thought eos was supposed to be the successor of fiveam (same basic statements, but architecturally more sound?) 03:20:15 gendl: ideally, slime would use asdf and its implementation-string. 03:20:37 Slime sort of has to bootstrap before ASDF, doesn't it? 03:20:37 gendl: after all, these days, each and every maintained implementation comes with asdf 03:20:45 asdf 2, even. 03:20:54 because slime is the thing which launches the lisp in the first place 03:21:09 i guess it could launch the Lisp and try to bootstrap it with ASDF, 03:21:20 only scieneer, which hasn't had a release in years, doesn't have it yet - but will hopefully have it at the next release. 03:21:38 but that's a lot to have going on at startup time, to be managed by Slime 03:21:52 Slime would have to be aware how to bootstrap ASDF in the currently running Lisp 03:21:53 madnificent: maybe that was the idea long time ago, but now I took over FiveAM and intend to improve it and deprecate eos 03:22:03 slime could (require "asdf") 03:22:04 unless Slime itself ships with its own copy of ASDF 03:22:17 does (require :asdf) work on all implementations? 03:22:29 except those I listed above, yes. 03:22:43 -!- Guest344` [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:23:07 madnificent: and also rt, lift, stefil, etc... 03:23:27 fe[nl]ix: :) 03:23:28 good job 03:23:32 and on those implementations, you could demand that users load asdf specially 03:23:52 or do it for them 03:24:17 p_l: did you mean "good luck" :) ? 03:24:28 fe[nl]ix: thanks, i'll keep it in mind. didn't know the details 03:24:34 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:42 fe[nl]ix: I just tried loading FiveAM in Allegro 9.0 non-SMP 03:25:17 problems ? 03:25:20 and I get "attempt to call the undefined function (setf it.bese.arnesi::get-match-handler) with args: " 03:26:01 fe[nl]ix: both good job (as I used fiveam in the recent past and it's good) and good luck on further improving :) 03:26:15 I can report this to Franz as well, as I'm not sure if you or any FiveAM maintainers have access to ACL 9.0 03:26:30 gendl: the latest release doesn't use arnesi any more 03:26:30 They haven't released free ACL 9.0 Express version yet, have they? 03:26:36 unfortunately, my license expired in julyt 03:26:38 *july 03:27:04 latest release == August Quicklisp ? 03:27:35 gendl: you must have some stray copy around which takes precedence 03:28:10 gendl: I tried contacting Franz to get them to donate a SMP licence, since I maintain quite a few open-source libraries and I can't afford a full licence 03:28:35 with no luck 03:28:54 fe[nl]ix: have you tried cold-calling their VP of Sales? 03:29:05 no 03:29:18 ... just remember to call him according to PDT tz 03:29:24 it's probably a cultural matter, I suppose 03:29:28 I don't like to beg 03:29:47 fe[nl]ix: well, I haven't had much issue getting Allegro Enterprise for a student project 03:30:12 In the meantime I can test any of your libraries 03:30:16 in SMP and non-SMP 03:30:24 but I might not be able to debug them. 03:30:28 I can just report the errors to you 03:30:39 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-hxcafxqgoolxthga] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:31:27 For FiveAM, my Quicklisp is pulling down five am/2010-10-06/fiveam-20101006-darcs.tgz 03:32:09 so I should update my Quicklisp dists? 03:32:48 yes 03:33:06 gendl: trivial-features, babel, cffi, fiveam, bordeaux-threads, static-vectors 03:33:15 all on https://github.com/sionescu/ 03:33:54 I'm not using any of them yet but they all look useful from the names and from what I've heard about them. 03:34:13 you could try iolib too but that may a bit problematic 03:34:51 try parse-number too 03:35:10 Ok, this sounds like a job for cl-test-grid 03:35:11 heh. Sometime soon I might be able to afford a machine and time to finally work on the iolib for win32 03:35:43 at least if the student loan works out -_-; 03:35:46 hlavaty did most of the job 03:36:04 fe[nl]ix: does it have full async i/o? 03:36:06 I pledge to get myself set up as a cl-test-grid node, and provide tests for all Quicklisp libraries on Allegro 32-bit and 64-bit Linux and Windows SMP and non-SMP 03:36:17 nice :) 03:36:37 p_l: yes, that's what he needed 03:36:53 what's missing is the stream library & sockets 03:37:01 and the file-path library 03:37:20 fe[nl]ix: well, I was thinking of starting with IOCP interface 03:37:36 (that's the NT-only async i/o api) 03:38:06 I was on Quicklisp from May 2012, I just realized. 03:38:20 Doing (ql:update-all-dists) now... 03:38:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:38:25 http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/fiveam/2012-07-03/fiveam-1.0.tgz is what the current Quicklisp has 03:38:52 fe[nl]ix: yes, i just saw it come down. 03:39:01 p_l: that should be the only part that tomas completed 03:41:41 Welp I just updated my Quicklisp, now I get 'Component "quick lisp" not found" when loading quicklisp/setup.lisp 03:41:49 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:42:05 ah 03:42:23 oh well, if I do get environment to work on that, I might look into it more closely 03:43:06 I'm gonna move the old quicklisp directory out of the way and just pull it down fresh. 03:45:10 fe[nl]ix: http://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/docs/index.html  Suits -> Suites 03:45:46 ArmyOfBruce: thanks 03:46:02 I think I might have fixed that but forgot to regenerate the docs 03:46:18 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:35 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:47:28 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:40 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 03:49:55 fe[nl]ix: readbale -> readable on the example page. on the analyzing results page, there is 'runnig'  that's enough for now. :) Looks like a nice library though. 03:50:13 gendl: I'm going to sleep now. let me know if you find something 03:50:39 ArmyOfBruce: nice :) 03:50:50 Well :fiveam just loaded cleanly 03:50:57 with August quicklisp 03:51:04 in non-SMP ACL 9.0 03:51:11 tomorrow i'm out of office, 03:51:17 Friday I will try with SMP. 03:51:21 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:51:35 And I will strongly consider developing new test suites with FiveAM 03:51:43 then migrating our old ones over to it in due course. 03:51:49 fe[nl 03:51:59 fe[nl]ix: thanks and sleep well. 03:54:38 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:56:08 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:57:03 booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:28 mritz 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[~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:50:22 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:51:58 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-124-104.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:54:16 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 04:59:30 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:00:18 -!- booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.36] has joined #lisp 05:02:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.36] has quit [Changing host] 05:02:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:03:09 booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:37 Hi. I recently posted the following question on Stack Overflow. I wondered if anyone here could clarify. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12156902/unxpected-behavior-with-eval-when 05:06:33 faheem: C-c C-k is compile-file 05:06:45 faheem, try 1.0d0 2.0d0 3.0d0 05:06:48 er, (load (compile-file ...)), actually. 05:07:22 (disclaimer: I only read the first 3 lines) 05:07:50 faheem: I suspect the default float format is getting set in the compiling thread but not your repl thread 05:08:37 Vivitron: that's what Rainer said. 05:08:58 Bike: right 05:09:15 Quadrescence: yes, i know that is an option 05:09:21 ok 05:09:27 Vivitron: any way of checking this? 05:09:41 like, do threads have identifiers? 05:09:52 ccl probably has a value-in-thread sort of function 05:09:59 faheem: they have names. you can use the threading functions to print the name of the thread you are in 05:10:06 Bike: ok. 05:10:31 Vivitron: ok, i'll check the manual. is this portable or non-portable? 05:10:40 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:11:03 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has joined #lisp 05:11:37 faheem: nonportable, but you could use bordeaux-threads for a portable thread api; still check the manual for the details of variable binding interaction to threads though, I think. 05:11:52 Vivitron: ok 05:12:32 so this works in SBCL, because SBCL does things differently somehow? 05:15:02 faheem: I'm not sure. 05:17:03 Vivitron: ok 05:17:56 bobbydrake [~bobbydrak@unaffiliated/bobbydrake] has joined #lisp 05:23:30 can someone remind me of the slime command to change which REPL is active (if there are multiple REPLs)? 05:23:50 -!- booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:07 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:28:01 never mind, looks like http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070425.html has my answer 05:33:13 it looks like the compilation is a separate thread. If i do a (print (all-processes)) inside the buffer, i get 05:33:32 # # 05:33:44 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-fbacnsinmxnzaeff] has joined #lisp 05:33:44 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-fbacnsinmxnzaeff] has quit [Changing host] 05:33:44 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:34:05 but on the REPL it gives # ... 05:34:08 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 05:34:36 so looks like the #x18BF99CE thread is the compilation thread, if i understand correctly 05:35:33 i'm not sure why it says PROCESS though, since these are not separate processes 05:39:29 jewel [~jewel@196-210-138-20.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:41:43 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:35 faheem: CL traditionally calls threads processes because CL was around before threads were thought of... :) 05:43:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 05:44:03 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.180] has joined #lisp 05:45:49 wubofeng [~quassel@116.236.252.170] has joined #lisp 05:46:54 -!- wubofeng [~quassel@116.236.252.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:02 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:34 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 05:51:00 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:19 Does CLOS have something like Interface? 05:57:39 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:57:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:57:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:58:13 didi: like a class you can't instantiate? 05:58:18 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:41 Bike: Hum, not a bad idea. Is it possible? 05:59:10 just a sec, I saw a snippet for it a while back. 05:59:31 Sure. :^) 05:59:36 http://www.tfeb.org/programs/lisp/abstract-classes.lisp 05:59:57 Bike: Thanks. 06:00:04 You'll probably need closer-mop for validate-superclass. 06:02:12 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 06:02:21 xwolf- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 06:03:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:04:47 Nah, it seems a little complex. I think I'll just create empty classes, multiple inheritance stuff and make mental notes to never instantiate some of the parents. 06:05:23 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 06:05:36 probably a good idea. I think that person only made that to satisfy other programmers, not himself. 06:05:41 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 06:08:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:09:13 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:19 <[6502]> Hello... strange question of the day: Is it a plus or a problem being able to tell immediately by looking at it if a certain form is a macro or a function? Is uniform syntax with non-uniform semantic really a good thing? 06:09:42 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10:24 IMHO... first could be a +ve and second could be a -ve... 06:10:58 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:02 <[6502]> I'm thinking to clojure for example... instead of wasting "[" "]" braketing that way wouldn't have been better to use "[" "]" for example for macros? 06:11:23 I don't think I've ever actually confused a macro for a function, or vice versa. 06:11:34 <[6502]> [if (< x 2) (this) (that)] 06:11:38 [6502]: No, no. () is love. 06:11:41 <[6502]> macro or special 06:12:04 <[6502]> Bike: I'm thinking about when you are reading code not written by you 06:12:05 That seems like a bad way to mark macros. The data structure is the same. 06:12:17 [6502]: yes. it's still usually pretty clear. 06:12:18 <[6502]> yes... but semantic is not 06:12:26 one should not know whether something is a macro or a function to use it 06:12:54 <[6502]> nkkarthik: good point... SOME macro should be more visible... 06:13:12 I find it an abstraction breach 06:13:27 [6502]: what I meant by that is, even if you want to mark macros, marking the data structure seems irrelevant. Why should (cons 'some-macro ...) result in a different looking structure than (cons 'some-function ...)? 06:13:28 <[6502]> nkkarthik: if the semantic is the same yes 06:13:32 DataLinkDroid: I see. Thanks. 06:13:48 gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has joined #lisp 06:14:10 *nkkarthik* second Bike 06:14:12 <[6502]> nkkarthik: if semantic is totally different from a function call then it's not abstraction leaking... 06:14:35 [6502]: I think the fact that the arguments are not evaluated in a macro is to help the macro writer, not to confuse the user. So you, as the user, shouldn't have to worry about it. 06:15:33 <[6502]> didi: think to for example (defmacro while (condition &rest body) `(do () ((not ,condition)) ,@body) .... it's not just a convenience thing 06:15:37 practically speaking most macros have something obvious in the name, like "with", "bind", or "def". And in SLIME the arglist is usually quite obvious, given macro arglist nesting. So I've never really had a problem. 06:15:40 [6502]: That's way PAIP talks about evaluating the arguments of a macro left to right, for example. 06:15:45 s/way/why 06:16:01 [6502]: is your name a vector with one element or a special macro :) 06:16:02 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:02 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 06:16:18 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078992.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:16:38 <[6502]> didi: yes... if the macro is meant to behave like a function call then it's clear that it shouldn't be visible, being a macro in that case is a detail 06:16:45 (type-of '[6502]) => SYMBOL 06:17:24 <[6502]> Bike: Hehehe... at latest EuroPython my badge was "|6502| is not a number", but not many understood it I suppose :-D 06:18:14 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:18:16 <[6502]> UPPERCASE! 06:18:35 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:06 *[6502]* likes uppercase for constants, tho 06:21:16 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:23:05 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314528.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:23:20 <[6502]> bike: you're right about the data structure... I wouldn't like to have do do anything special in macros to manipulate code containing macro calls, it would be nice to have some information about it if I need to do code walking tho 06:24:22 <[6502]> code-walking a (loop ...) must be a nightmare 06:24:33 I've updated my SO question. Does anyone know why these variables are local to a thread? Or is that a question for a CCL forum? 06:24:33 you just macroexpand it. 06:24:54 code walkers only have to handle function calls and the 25 special forms. 06:25:26 <[6502]> faheem: all specials are per-thread 06:26:13 [6502]: special variables? 06:26:46 <[6502]> bike: your pretty printer written that way is not going to produce very pretty output :-D 06:27:02 *read-default-float-format* is special; generally the *earmuffs* conventions work 06:27:58 [6502]: sb-pretty::pprint-extended-loop is like twenty lines. 06:28:06 it's also not a walker. 06:28:07 Bike: *earmuffs* conventions? 06:28:28 faheem: the asterisks around the name, I mean. 06:28:51 indicate that a variable is special. Which is lisp-ese for "it's dynamically scoped", if that helps. 06:29:42 Bike: ah, in that sense. 06:30:44 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:30:55 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:31:16 <[6502]> faheem: dyamic scope is something that is not present in many other languages (DBIII was another language with them, if you've been so unfortunate to work with it). Absolutely worth a reading if you don't know what it is 06:31:53 Perl uses it. 06:32:15 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:32:22 *s are very useful, I find. 06:33:13 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:33:18 [6502]: Yes, I've read about them in PCL, but didn't immediately know what you were referrring to 06:33:22 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 06:33:42 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:33:51 and Seibel doesn't mention in the section i read that they are per-thread 06:33:59 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 06:34:07 faheem: the CL standard doesn't say, since it doesn't address threading 06:34:14 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-197-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:34:25 PCL also doesn't address threading, does it? 06:34:26 faheem: I do believe that all CL implementations that support threads do them per-thread though 06:34:33 loke_erc: ok, thanks 06:34:55 However, different implementations address the initialisation of dynamically scoped variables in threads differently 06:36:04 faheem: is this file part of a system? it might be easiest to just ignore this and use system loading mechanisms 06:36:07 loke_erc: but is it still the case that the values in one thread do not affect the value in other threads? 06:36:36 Bike: no, just a bit of practice code 06:36:59 ah. 06:37:07 Bike: i've been using this method to set double float, and it worked with SBCL 06:37:19 then it didn't work with CCL and I wondered why 06:37:49 i'm just a beginner, so i didn't know what i was missing 06:38:24 i imagine one can set this in a CCL init file perhaps 06:39:09 faheem: generally, yes 06:39:20 put (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) in ~/ccl-init.lisp? 06:39:51 I'd rather simply specify double float numbers as 1.2d0 06:39:55 Bike: thanks. i'll try that 06:39:58 loke_erc: why? 06:40:05 that way I have no dependency on the read default float ofrmat 06:40:13 isn't DOUBLE-FLOAT a beter default? 06:40:35 surely that depends on what you're doing. 06:40:36 loke_erc: ok 06:40:51 Bike: true 06:40:57 but yeah, just making them all double floats in the code is the other problem-dodging solution I'd do 06:41:10 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:41:15 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:19 but i mostly do numerical work in my code 06:43:00 <[6502]> are minimacros a good idea? if in some function i've a lot of (add-widget w ...) calls using (macrolet ((aw (&rest body) `(add-widget w ,@body))) ...) is a good or a bad idea? 06:43:43 Wait, is add-widget a macro? 06:43:45 [6502]: what is the point of that? 06:44:04 -!- bobbydrake [~bobbydrak@unaffiliated/bobbydrake] has quit [Quit: Good Night] 06:44:05 <[6502]> Bike: does it make a difference? 06:44:23 <[6502]> loke_erc: DRY 06:44:27 DRY? 06:44:33 WHat is dry 06:44:35 well, just that you may as well use flet instead 06:44:39 <[6502]> loke_erc: don't repeat yourself 06:45:00 [6502]:If it makes the code clearer, then it's a good idea. It's your call if less text makes the code clearer or more cryptic. 06:45:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:45:46 Bike: I know he said "in a function," but one reason to use macrolet is at top level in a file, to avoid changing top-levelness. 06:46:03 <[6502]> Bike: with a macro you save one indenting level (e.g. (aw button "OK" #'send-email) ) 06:46:05 most macrolets I've seen do more than save a dozen characters, like the (macrolet ((def ... idiom all over everything 06:46:30 moore33: didn't think of that. 06:46:51 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 06:47:09 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:13 <[6502]> Bike: of course i meant (macrolet ((aw (&rest expr) `(add-widget w ,expr)) ...) 06:47:35 I guessed that, yeah. 06:48:16 <[6502]> hmmm 06:49:01 <[6502]> my toy toplevel-eval doesn't handle macrolet (but indeed there's no point in having this limitation). I'll fix that 06:49:11 What I meant was that I don't really see the point in doing things like that just to save barely any typing. Maybe you do, I dunno. 06:50:05 <[6502]> i've to think more about it... moore33 summarized it nicely... is less code more readable or more cryptic? that's the whole point 06:50:30 <[6502]> saving typing is not useful.... code is written once and read may times. readability counts most 06:50:41 <[6502]> may=many 06:51:06 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:51:21 [6502]: Some progamming languages and cultures believe that more text always means more readable, but I have never believed that to be true. 06:51:23 If I was adding a bunch of widgets at once, and not at toplevel, I might just make a batch add-widgets function. 06:52:48 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:28 -!- cryptic [~cryptic@pool-74-108-14-99.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:53:50 cryptic [~cryptic@pool-74-108-14-99.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:07 <[6502]> Bike: an add-widgets function wouldn't be flexible enough, but an add-widgets macro could be, i've to think about it 06:54:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-138-20.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:55:05 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:55:41 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:07 <[6502]> time to go to office... thanks and see you later 06:57:11 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.252.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:57:16 -!- [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:57:38 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:00:34 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:01:48 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.18.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:02:12 -!- xwolf- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 07:07:39 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:08:01 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 07:12:45 voodoo_ [~voodoo@37.244.153.44] has joined #lisp 07:17:24 http://paste.lisp.org/+2TC4 07:17:53 All that talk about macro but I can't figure out how to make this work . I want to make a macro that evaluates its argument. 07:18:03 I am having trouble with doing a oauth call to twitter using drakma, any suggestions? 07:18:48 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.152.114.98] has joined #lisp 07:18:51 Harag: maybe drakma is urlencoding unnecessarily 07:18:53 *? 07:19:10 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:19:10 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:10 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:19:16 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-geupngfjgxsnnrzr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:19:29 Bike it is most likely but how do i stop that? 07:20:05 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.152.114.98] has quit [Client Quit] 07:20:26 didi: you're confusing the macro function code and the expanded code. e.g., ,@(loop ...) runs at macroexpansion time, but relies on list being bound, when it isn't until runtime. 07:20:46 Harag: try binding puri:*strict-parse* to nil around the request? 07:20:52 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c370a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:54 Hum. I still get very confused about this different "times". 07:21:04 it is confusing. 07:22:06 Basically, at macroexpansion time, the macro function is called with the macro form (e.g. (foo ...)), split up into the arguments appropriately. The macro function returns another form (say, (list ...)), which is macroexpanded until it's no longer a macro form, and then evaluated. 07:22:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.36] has joined #lisp 07:22:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.36] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:23:00 ok i read PCL as recomended 07:23:15 didi what exactly isnt working, (foo ...) ? 07:24:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:49 voodoo_: In this case, it complains about `list' no being a list. But also, the form macroexpanded will have a `(length #:something)', which is not what I want. I want the number 2. 07:25:09 List is a symbol. 07:25:26 you bound it yourself: (let ((list (gensym))) ...) 07:25:28 Bike: Yeah. But I can't add another `,'. 07:25:49 It's already inside ,@(loop ...). 07:25:51 The macro isn't passed the value! It's passed the form itself. 07:26:22 type-list is the three-element list (list :int :string). 07:27:06 benny [~user@i577A8A89.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:25 damn i am getting confused now too 07:27:39 So what is this supposed to do? like (foo (:a :b :c)) should expand to (list 3 'type :a 'type :b 'type :c), yeah? 07:27:42 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:27:48 Bike: right! 07:28:00 Bike: The first macro does it. 07:28:21 Bike: But I want to evaluate `type-list'. 07:28:39 So I could do something like (foo (compute-a-type-list)). 07:29:00 rewrite with various ticks and commas raondomly until it works 07:29:07 Okay, the thing to understand is that you can't do that if you want the argument evaluated. FOO is /not/ recieving the type list itself, it's receiving (compute-a-type-list) or something. 07:29:34 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 07:29:46 does he need some commas in his macro definition 07:29:48 Instead, you expand into (let (([gensym] (compute-a-type-list))) (list* (length [gensym]) (make-type-list [gensym]))), or something. 07:30:12 Hummmmm... 07:30:16 didi: basically what I'm getting at is that macros operate on source, not values themselves. 07:30:32 didi: in this case I'd just write a function... 07:31:08 oh i get it now 07:31:08 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314528.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:40 (defun make-type-list (type-list) (list* (length type-list) (mapcon (lambda (type) (list 'type type)) type-list)))), I think? 07:32:51 Not quite. 07:32:54 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 07:33:06 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314528.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:33:39 But I think I get it. 07:33:44 mapcan, oops. 07:33:57 I would need a helper function. 07:34:15 Nice. `mapcan' does it. 07:34:46 Bike: Thank you. 07:34:57 what do you make of clojure here 07:35:12 mapcan is like mapcar, but nconcs its results together instead of listing them. mapcon is like mapcan, but operates on successive sublists instead of successive elements. 07:35:15 clojure vs common lisp... is clojure some corruption, or useful 07:35:37 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 07:35:43 His second macro did not work because at macroexpansion time it was just a symbol, the second let would have effect only at runtime? Is that correct? 07:36:12 list eas just a symbol 07:36:20 yeah. 07:36:50 I wonder if backquote syntax hurts understanding of macros. Maybe things would be more obvious if e wrote out a bunch of append and list calls instead. 07:37:11 i get that impression 07:37:31 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:54 backquote syntax does look like a redherring with macros 07:40:16 ehu [~ehu@109.38.204.160] has joined #lisp 07:43:16 http://paste.lisp.org/+2TC3/1 07:44:00 Bike: Nice. Thanks. 07:44:05 *didi* also learned list* 07:44:24 it doesn't come up much... possibly due to backquote, really. 07:45:03 this has the added effect of making the usefulness of backquote obvious, because that's hard to read. and write, "list" doesn't look like a word right now. 07:51:26 Just wrote something similar. Version of aif macro without backquote syntax is far less readable and i had to concentrate more when writing it. http://paste.lisp.org/+2TC5 07:53:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53:38 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 07:53:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:55:05 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:55:30 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:55 bobhica [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 08:01:39 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:50 asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has joined #lisp 08:05:32 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:05:41 Bike: You see, `append' and `list' _do_ makes thing easier. At least at my level. 08:06:10 for learning, yeah. I just mean that it's a pain for working. 08:06:37 Oh yeah, I don't doubt that. But still. 08:07:57 http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html 08:08:28 n00b6502: don't forget that we're on a CL channel, so biased :) I guess that closure is allright if targetting the jvm (of course there's also ABCL though), but clojure is very different on many respects 08:08:45 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 08:09:45 perhaps focussing on CL, and just using the appropriate subset (e.g. immutables..) is the way to go for me 08:10:14 n00b6502: There aren't imutables. 08:10:31 fcuntions that dont mutate rather 08:10:37 n00b6502: I think you are reading to much and coding to little. 08:11:03 exact opposite of what i was told yesterday 08:11:21 I meant clojure not closure of course, I mispelled one instance 08:14:35 f 08:14:48 n00b6502: I think he meant too much about non-cl? :) 08:15:18 but ams will have to confirm 08:15:28 I have an image as what looks like a bit vector (got it from drakma:http-request). how would I dump this to a file? 08:15:47 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:17:01 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:17:04 I mean is there someting like (write-vector vector pathname) 08:17:21 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-92.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep.] 08:17:31 write-sequence if I remember should be able to write vectors 08:18:00 phadthai: I meant in general. 08:18:33 these cl vs. clojure vs. scheme vs. elisp vs. arc vs. whatever are boring, they are all lisps. all the same, but different. 08:19:06 one lisp to rule them all 08:19:17 no, you see it wrong. 08:19:20 lisp rules them all. 08:19:24 what that lisp is nobody cares. 08:20:15 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 08:20:44 find something fun to work on in a lisp, and be happy. 08:21:06 closures vs lexical/dynamic scoping vs hygeneic macros .. boooring. 08:21:15 lisp is used to get shit done. 08:25:42 -!- voodoo_ [~voodoo@37.244.153.44] has quit [Quit: quit] 08:26:20 ams +1 08:27:05 hm, sory. right word is incf 08:27:17 1+ ? 08:28:46 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 08:29:17 no, take ams rank, increase it, and put it back into ams 08:30:32 incf it is then 08:34:20 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:35:18 so i'm ams+1 now? 08:35:25 cool... 08:35:45 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:37:39 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:38:37 Suppose i have a CL 1 dim array / vector eg #(1 2 4) and want to pass it as a pointer to a C function using CFFI. in C/C++ one passes the address of the first element in the array. does anyone know the correct construction in CFFI? something similar to MAKE-POINTER, perhaps? 08:39:02 http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/archives/2012/08/29/590/ 08:39:12 how many times has that link been spammed in here so far? 08:39:39 Mmm... lisp 1.5 .. god i loved that 08:39:46 why? 08:40:04 it was nothing like java! :P 08:40:07 bjorkintosh: Simple. 08:41:55 faheem: http://www.cliki.net/FFA 08:42:03 faheem: You normally don't use `make-pointer'. 08:42:36 asvil: thanks 08:42:46 didi: Oh. Ok. 08:42:55 bjorkintosh: let me put it this way, i don't like slime :-) 08:43:02 :O 08:43:13 *gasp* 08:43:15 but! 08:43:24 ams: do you like slimv? 08:43:25 asvil> faheem: http://www.cliki.net/FFA 08:43:27 ams hemlock? 08:43:31 no, no. 08:43:33 ams don't like emacs I suppose? 08:43:44 bobhica: oh, no, i love emacs, i do everything in emacs. 08:43:47 asvil: it seems this is not part of CFFI. too bad 08:43:48 asvil: I'd like hemlock with vim keybindings _A LOT_ 08:43:54 bobhica: I can't live without emacs. 08:44:09 it is just that slime is not emacsy.. or lispy in my poor old head.. 08:44:11 ams what do you dislike about slime then? 08:44:17 faheem it is part of quicklisp 08:44:26 bobhica: that you interact with a repl at all 08:44:29 asvil: ok 08:44:39 bobhica: take elisp, there is no `repl' per see... 08:44:47 asvil: is there some reason it is not part of cffi? 08:45:15 ams you don't have to interact with the repl. you can evaluate code in the CL buffers. there's slime-scratch too 08:45:24 bobhica: (yeah yeah, you can use ielm and whatever, but it is more of a second class citizen) 08:45:30 bobhica, why bother? 08:45:35 why not just write in maclisp? 08:45:45 i mean... it is a modern-ish lisp no? 08:45:55 oh, i see the author is Tamas 08:46:22 bobhica: mm.. true, still slime has all these awkward bindings and stuff, and for some odd reason i always end up switching to the repl 08:46:27 he gets around 08:46:39 ams, so what do you typically use? 08:46:47 M-x butterfly-mode? 08:46:59 bjorkintosh: I'm not feeding trolls today. 08:47:06 hahaha 08:47:14 faheem: may be author have no time to integrate it in cffi 08:47:18 you should! it is the anniversary of the great book you love so much. 08:47:24 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:24 bjorkintosh: Only Tuesdays between 07:00-07:10 CET. 08:47:30 hahahah 08:48:06 bobhica: Dunno, i've tried using slime several times, but it always feels so awkward 08:48:18 asvil: i see there is a comment there about it. have you used this package? 08:48:47 ams to what repl, just plain shell in emacs? 08:48:49 bobhica: like, C-h f ... does an elisp lookup in a slime buffer ... i don't get that. 08:48:56 faheem: yes, for cl-portaudio wrapper. 08:49:06 all works fine 08:49:17 asvil: ok. that's good. appreciate it. 08:49:54 bobhica: I guess i'm just old and grumpy. :-) 08:50:07 ams fair enough :) 08:51:11 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 08:53:49 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:54 bobhica: it is just all those small thingies that piss me off... 09:00:40 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01:44 bps [~bps@ip70-176-194-122.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:19 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:04:21 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-tmcaqdjaushhoibi] has joined #lisp 09:04:21 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-tmcaqdjaushhoibi] has quit [Changing host] 09:04:21 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:07:52 logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:08:39 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 09:09:36 FreeTux [~tuxedo@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:48 rabite_ [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 09:09:50 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:50 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:51 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:51 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:51 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:52 -!- Tuxedo [~tuxedo@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:53 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:53 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:05 ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:32 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 09:10:47 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:11:01 -!- dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:11:37 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 09:11:52 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:12:28 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 09:15:58 -!- superflit [~superflit@63-225-240-187.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:17:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:18:16 ams: just fix it, submit a patch. 09:18:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:21:34 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:22:33 so, what do you think about antialiased text in stumpwm? 09:23:02 http://cliki-test.h4ck.me/ seriously? 09:25:15 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:18 asvil: may this library will be intereting to you http://filonenko-mikhail.github.com/clx-truetype/ 09:26:12 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:27:06 antonv: it's me) 09:27:25 asvil: ok )) 09:29:16 dim: this version of clicki is also deployed at ALU site: http://wiki.alu.org/ 09:31:42 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 09:31:49 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:33 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Client Quit] 09:34:24 -!- bobhica [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 09:35:29 beta version of stumpwm with aa text is available here https://github.com/filonenko-mikhail/stumpwm under aa-text or release branches 09:35:55 snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:58 screenshot http://picpaste.com/stumpwm-root-NRtIjKwB.png 09:38:11 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 n00b6502: clojure encourages you to write mostly functional code with the imperative part separated out, while common lisp programmers believe that their language should not tell them how to code, so clojure programmers are happy with clojure, and common lisp programmers are happy without it. Also note that you can implement most of clojures features in CL with little difficulty. A lot of the pieces are already there, for 09:38:49 instance fset gives you persistent data structures. Implementing some of CLs features in clojure on the other hand is pretty difficult if not imposible. 09:39:04 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:39:15 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:39:30 i just read clojure doesn't have keyword arguments 09:39:53 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:40:04 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A697.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 seems like sticking to cl gives more options 09:40:45 n00b6502: clojure does not need keyword arguments because it has a surface syntax for maps. 09:41:20 n00b6502: one could argue that clojure has "more options", based on that. 09:41:49 H4ns: by that logic clojure doesn't need multiple values, because it has destructuring. 09:42:04 pavelpenev: right. 09:42:51 which is bs, because the whole point of mv's is to use the primary one as the default, and only get the other values if you care about them. 09:43:15 pavelpenev: well, you came up with the idea, now you dismiss it again. 09:43:26 pavelpenev: anyway, "more options" is pretty meaningless. 09:43:44 I was failing at sarcasm 09:47:29 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:40 asvil: cool, I wish I had completed stumpwm installation to try aa texts. I once tried to configure stupmpwd, ruined the initialization scripts on my linux VM and abandoned it at all for luck of time :( 09:49:04 what's stupmpwd? 09:50:29 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:35 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 09:50:37 sorry, it's a typo, I mean stumpwm 09:52:26 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:49 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 09:53:21 ez2718 [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 09:53:23 -!- theos is now known as Guest50404 09:54:05 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:54:42 -!- Guest50404 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:36 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 09:59:07 trying to do a nested defmacro here... with nested `( , ) ... not working. i'm trying to get a parameter from the outer macro quoted in the inner 09:59:28 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:59:46 (defmacro make-macro (name op) `(defmacro name (a b) `(....... ,op ..... ,a ,b )))) 10:00:10 (defmacro make-macro (name op) `(defmacro ,name (a b) `(....... ,op ..... ,a ,b )))) 10:00:26 is there a way to make that work? 10:01:04 leo2007 [~leo@124.248.202.119] has joined #lisp 10:01:32 i'm trying to make something to declare curried-partial binary functions, e.g (make-curry mul *) then (mul 2 2) =4 (mapcar (mul 2) '(1 2 3)) = (2 4 6) 10:02:04 i can make this work without a nested macro, i.e. defining one such wrapper individually 10:02:24 asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has joined #lisp 10:02:49 n00b6502: you need to read on lisp 10:02:56 -!- ez2718 [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:03:07 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-75-55-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 10:03:09 n00b6502: It can be made to work, but backquote nesting is tricky. I recommend the appendix to CLTL2. 10:03:27 n00b6502: and you need to know that you can use ,,foo 10:03:30 oh do i just need ''( ,,) inside 10:03:45 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 10:03:52 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:04:15 n00b6502: It depends on what you are after. You will probably need something like ,',foo or ',',foo inside. 10:05:00 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@2001:470:8:d80:313c:ec25:ba80:20fb] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 10:05:18 asvil: do you still live in Minsk? 10:05:28 perhaps i can do the inner one without backquotes.. 10:05:32 [SLB]` [~slabua@host247-111-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:05:44 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:49 antonv: yes 10:05:52 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 10:05:53 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host247-111-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 10:05:53 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:05:53 How do I lisp paste? 10:06:16 moore33: paste.lisp.org 10:06:25 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 10:06:25 asvil: me too. probably we could setup a common lisp meeting? 10:08:10 n00b6502:http://paste.lisp.org/+2TC6 An example from McClim. 10:10:41 antonv: interesting, sometimes my friend makes clojure presentation on scala.by, so, scala.by may be convenient place, or this week there will be mlug http://mend0za.livejournal.com/66659.html, I do not know how many lispers there are, may be zero 10:13:36 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:06 ok i got it working myself, only using one `, the inner one manually built.. and yes i needed ',op ... very unclear at a glance :( 10:16:44 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:51 (make-curry-binary-op mul * ) ===> (mul 2 2) .. (mapcar (mul 2 a) '(1 2 3 )) fine 10:18:00 n00 6502: Is writing (quote ,op) clearer? 10:18:48 ez2718 [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:19:18 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 10:19:30 write-once macros 10:20:25 I think the defgeneric* example is a lot clearer than writing out all the list operations. 10:20:46 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-41-122.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:21:07 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:22:56 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:39 i'll thrash around for a bit longer before i give in to cut-paste 10:23:57 i have only acheived my goal when i can write any macro i want 10:24:52 heh the #define #define one wished one had in c 10:30:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A3F55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:49 bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:31:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.248.202.119] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 10:34:53 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:36:50 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:38:34 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:39:35 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:42:52 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-197-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 10:43:04 I'm in LW61 defining a macro in the MP package, and I get "Defining macro MP:MAKE-PROCESS-LOCK visible from package MP." The previous call is to SYSTEM::CHECK-DANGEROUS-SYMBOL-PACKAGE. Could/should I do something to avoid the warning? 10:43:06 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:43:21 dru1d [~lukasz@eja42.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:43:53 chr``: you can stop defining new symbols in system-defined packages like mp 10:44:59 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.213.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:23 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 10:51:43 -!- logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:52:11 -!- chr`` is now known as chr 10:56:13 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:33 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-41-122.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 10:59:28 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:01:12 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 11:02:12 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:08:06 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-152-254.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:22 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-41-122.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:11:08 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:48 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:17:40 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:17:46 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-75-55-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:20:33 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:25:03 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.39] has joined #lisp 11:29:46 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:32:08 cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 11:32:27 add^_^ [~add^_@m90-141-38-195.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:33:36 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 11:33:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:40 setmeaway2 [stemearay@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 11:34:01 lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:01 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:34:01 lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 11:34:09 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-182.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:10 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-182.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:12 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:17 loreints` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-41-122.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:34:42 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 11:34:54 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:00 -!- loreints [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:37:08 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:38:24 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 11:39:36 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:41 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:40:02 ahh it's a wonderful day 11:40:33 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:43:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:43:46 /#kawa 11:43:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:46:01 -!- `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:46:44 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 11:47:15 does anyone have suggestions for optimizing this computation? http://paste.lisp.org/display/131338 thanks 11:47:42 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:47:51 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-177.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:12 francogrex: your description of the problem is very hard to understand. and your code is not formatted well. maybe you can improve on both? doses variable? 11:49:54 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-182.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:50:10 H4ns: doses is a list of sub-lists (of 2 elements each: id and number of doses) 11:50:50 I can add few headers it will explain better 11:50:55 francogrex: i see no variable named doses 11:51:07 francogrex: supply a sample entry from the hash table, abbreviated if required 11:51:15 francogrex: and format your code properly. 11:51:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:52:00 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:52:55 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:53:34 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-207.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:26 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-177.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:04 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:20 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:56:27 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:30 I annotated I hope it's a bit clearer http://paste.lisp.org/display/131338#1 11:59:23 I have also another question maybe more important. If I have multiple similar values of (nth 0 v) can I within the hashtable remove all entries and leave just one? 12:00:05 I mean remove entries with similar (nth 0 value) ; the list of Ids 12:00:25 or sould this be done outside and before populating the hash table? 12:00:32 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:41 i still cannot make sense of this, but it seems that you need to structure your data differently so that you can access it faster 12:00:52 nth is slow. parse-integer is slow 12:01:39 ok 12:01:50 (car (member ...)) is better written as (find ...), but that'd not matter much in terms of speed i think. 12:02:26 and cadr/car/cdr makes the code awfully hard to read and understand. so hard that i'm not even trying to. as a reviewer, i'd just sent you back to the drawing board 12:02:38 maybe use destructuring-bind to give the components a proper name? 12:02:53 maybe you don't want to use names like i, k or v? 12:03:20 that's nothing which affects performance, but a better coding style will get you better reviews for performance questions. 12:05:06 ok noted 12:05:57 once you've got the stuff named properly, you could write up a problem statement. "i need to calculate the sum of all doses having ..." 12:06:38 or, alternatively, you could just get yourself a faster machine and be done with it (not joking, sometimes that is the most efficient way towards a goal) 12:07:12 (even in term of money, unless you're not giving any value to your time) 12:12:04 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:21:01 bartiosze [bartiosze@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 12:21:20 -!- bartiosze [bartiosze@nintendos.pl] has left #lisp 12:22:16 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:24:43 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:31:18 -!- tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-207.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:32:42 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:33 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:43 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:12 xenoclast [~fred@124-170-126-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:41:00 -!- dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufilnmvoepnbrflj] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:41:12 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wjojjvlalqjmswxb] has joined #lisp 12:42:15 -!- dru1d [~lukasz@eja42.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:41 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:46:52 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:46:54 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47:54 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.49.183] has joined #lisp 12:48:27 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.247.45] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 12:48:28 -!- xenoclast [~fred@124-170-126-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:52:18 ok how about the second question wich is general; if I have values in a hash table that may appear in association with other keys, is is possible to remove those duplicates (or multiple) entries? 12:52:47 from manupulations within the hashtable? 12:52:50 francogrex: yes, by iterating through the hash table and removing those keys+values that you don't need with remhash 12:53:22 but i'm not exactly sure how maphash and remhash interact. i'd probably create a new hash table instead. 12:53:52 ah, remhash can be used to remove the current entry. 12:54:01 francogrex: (first question) maybe converting doses from alist to hash-table beforehand will speed up key-value retrieval 12:54:08 yes I was thining of that, also I'll need to use remove-duplicates function, I don't know how wold that be done within a maphahsh 12:54:32 paolo_m: ok 12:54:32 francogrex: you can't. for that, you'd need to convert the hash table to a sequence first. 12:55:06 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 12:55:13 H4ns: yes I realize, although remove-duplicates is not neccesaily the most efficient algorithm 12:55:29 francogrex: for large sequences, it is unlikely to be efficient. 12:55:59 I wonder if there would be a better function, I'll look up into algorithm books 12:57:31 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:01:07 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:02:33 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:01 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 13:03:04 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06:00 ngz [~user@254.214.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:03 or easier maybe make a new hash table and have the values of the previous table as entries...? 13:08:05 p_l: you can get "side effect free" compilation by forking before compiling. 13:08:22 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:08:32 pjb: yes, I know. I was thinking of forking the GC root, let's say, instead of whole process 13:12:55 yep that is fast as hell 13:13:55 faheem: you'd have better luck if you asked your question on news:comp.lang.lisp than on stackoverflow or reddit. 13:16:07 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:54 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:17:32 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 13:18:40 minion: memo for [6502]: it's neither a plus or a problem: normal human brains have enough neurons to deal with that. Most user defined macros have either some conventional name (do-.*, with-.*, def.*, .*ing-.*), or are well known DSL verbs. 13:18:40 Remembered. I'll tell [6502] when he/she/it next speaks. 13:20:48 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:16 minion: memo for [6502]: code walking loop, or any other macro is trivial: (code-walk (macroexpand form env) env) 13:22:16 Remembered. I'll tell [6502] when he/she/it next speaks. 13:24:38 tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.18.143] has joined #lisp 13:25:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:25:44 minion: memo for [6502]: macrolets are cool to define a local DSL. No problem if they're just renaming macros. 13:25:44 Remembered. I'll tell [6502] when he/she/it next speaks. 13:25:46 asvil [~asvil@178.121.186.100] has joined #lisp 13:27:05 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:28:35 n00b6502: clojure is not common lisp: it gratuituously differ from common lisp. Therefore it's not practical. I dismiss it. 13:29:51 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:32:01 minion: memo for Bike: most reader macros hurt newbies understanding what's happening. Tutorials should avoid most reader macros for a longer time, before introducing reader macro shortcuts. 13:32:01 Remembered. I'll tell Bike when he/she/it next speaks. 13:32:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:59 -!- ez2718 [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:09 kanru [~kanru@187.74.240.18] has joined #lisp 13:36:48 ams: M-x ielm RET 13:37:15 I don't see how ielm is second class: it's a first class major mode. 13:37:46 Take any CL implementation and list the threads running: most of them are not REPLs either. 13:37:56 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.176.7] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 ez271 [5990c013@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.144.192.19] has joined #lisp 13:39:24 heh, binary-types uses the nickname bt 13:40:06 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 13:40:49 like the guy who places a dictation recorder in a bar and leaves and then later, when he returns, listens to the recording and states his own opinion to everything said in his absence. 13:41:25 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.186.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:28 H4ns: if you mean pjb, it'd be more like if you left a recorder on the bar, and later responded to conversation, and later they responded to that, which is how i've always seen irc treated 13:44:10 irc is good for synchronous communication. email and other stuff is good for async. 13:44:31 minion is a poor way to do async. 13:44:53 irc is async by nature and usage, and *allow* for sync if all parties agree on going sync for a while 13:45:29 if you want sync, don't do IRC without first checking you're not the only one doing sync. if you want sync, use your phone or your legs. 13:45:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:46:21 it is nice that despite a seemingly radically different understanding of the users, it still works to some degree. 13:46:40 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 I've been "burnt" before by that "radically different understanding" 13:47:30 A lot of irc users are on permanently, so answers can be give within 24 hours. 13:48:03 given 13:49:18 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:49:22 if i want to wait for an answer, i use email. if i want it now, i ask in irc and if i can't get an answer there, i go somewhere else. i can't remember an instance of having posted a question in irc and getting a useful answer hours later, at least not in a highly populated channel like #lisp 13:49:24 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:49:30 but that's just me and i'm offline now :) 13:49:35 asvil [~asvil@178.121.13.75] has joined #lisp 13:49:38 -!- Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:02 not to be on-topic, but the only way to handle conflicting package nicknames is rename-package, correct? and there's not a great way with ASDF to juggle that...? 13:53:01 report a bug, indicating that short package names or nick-names are no-no. 13:53:03 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:53:50 that would be great if the offending source's author was even clearly around, but even the cliki-linked page is 404 13:53:59 It should be no.uit.cs.vatvedt-fjeld.binary-types, no bt. 13:54:27 or if it's forked, it could be net.common-lisp.binary-types. 13:54:39 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:54:48 i'd be happy with binary-types =P 13:55:30 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 13:57:38 kanru` [~kanru@187.74.240.18] has joined #lisp 13:58:18 -!- kanru [~kanru@187.74.240.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:59:37 pjb: by second class i mean that normal commands, like C-h f, etc, do not work as they should imho. 14:00:03 in that sense, slime/ielm/... are second class; they do not use normal emacs means of communicating. 14:02:24 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:11 -!- ez271 [5990c013@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.144.192.19] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:05:20 Well, C-h f works in ielm since it's just emacs lisp. Slime _could_ rebind them, it we feel it's better to leave direct access to both CL and elisp even in slime and lisp buffers. 14:05:39 Otherwise, you can use any buffer as an emacs lisp REPL, with C-x C-e. 14:05:50 *scratch* is first class, by your definition. 14:07:25 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 14:09:28 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:09:47 -!- Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:08 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:21 oGMo: there is some asdf hook to do something around compilation, now 14:11:16 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:11:30 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:11:51 Xach: noted .. found "pack" though, which is arguably nicer for my purpose 14:12:38 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:14:00 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 14:16:04 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:18 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:39 -!- kanru` [~kanru@187.74.240.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:15 -!- dan [~dan@gateway/tor-sasl/dan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:49 you could make renamed-bt.asd, that depends on binary-types, and with a single lisp file that does nothing but rename the package 14:22:02 sure, but you first have to rename bordeaux-threads, then re-rename it after load, but same principle i suppose 14:22:20 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:23:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:24:04 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:33 i think you could pick just one as the sacrificial renamed package 14:24:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:24:56 well you can't rename it until you've loaded it, right? 14:25:13 and load order may not be guaranteed 14:25:31 -!- nullman [~nullman@75.73.150.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:26:15 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:26:40 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:28 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:38 *Xach* wonders about that 14:30:58 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:01 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 14:34:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:35:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:35:26 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.176.7] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 14:35:34 -!- hswe [~hswe@blackhole.space150.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:26 ynniv [~ynniv@173-15-212-110-BusName-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 oGMo: renamed-binary-type.asd can depend on renamed-bordeaux-thread.asd and each can load a renaming file, so load order would be definite. 14:38:59 or vice versa, if you want to keep a bt nickname. 14:39:33 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:00 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:19 pjb: your system may still be loaded after someone else's, but it should be a simple matter to write the conditional 14:42:37 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:17 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:44:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:44:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 just rename both avoiding the use of bt? 14:44:54 e.g. bth and bty 14:48:41 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:50:43 dan [~dan@li20-202.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 test 14:50:52 sweet 14:50:56 -!- dan [~dan@li20-202.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 14:51:28 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:53:27 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:53:43 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:06 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.13.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:54:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:54:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:54:52 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-106-67-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 Rister [~rister@d24-57-78-203.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:53 -!- cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:27 cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:01:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:01:19 Just don't use short nicknames in published code! 15:01:23 jjkola [~androirc@193-64-21-63-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:02:01 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:02:15 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 15:02:37 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@83.226.178.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:39 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.38.204.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:02:55 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:03:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:30 SHODAN [~shozan@c-aeb2e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:05:33 *Xach* fails to get clsql and oracle working together 15:05:52 I can help migrating to PostgreSQL :) 15:05:55 hu.dwim.rdbms.oracle works 15:06:27 It seems like clsql doesn't know how to look for "modern" oracle C libraries, but I'm not sure. 15:07:15 Xach: there are database libraries for common lisp? 15:07:23 jfe: yes. 15:07:27 awesome! 15:07:42 jfe: check http://cliki.net 15:07:46 I don't actually want to use clsql-oracle, but it would be nice if I could at least build it. 15:08:10 Perhaps you need oracle libraries/headers installed to build it? 15:08:15 I have those. 15:08:21 Roger. 15:08:59 And my ORACLE_HOME is set properly, and clsql-oracle is referencing it. It's failing at trying to load "oci" and "libclntsh" 15:09:17 Perhaps a version problem? 15:10:07 Xach: do you have your .ora files setup? 15:10:22 e.g. sqlnet.ora, tnsnames.ora... 15:11:30 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:35 I think so. 15:11:53 okay. that gave me problems when i was trying to set up sqlplus for oracle. 15:14:05 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:15 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:44 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.240] has joined #lisp 15:17:15 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 15:18:58 -!- Rister [~rister@d24-57-78-203.home.cgocable.net] has left #lisp 15:21:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3F55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:22:53 I have a libclntsh.so but no oci.so or liboci.so or anything 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has joined #lisp 15:40:33 Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 kyl [~kyle_dev@deathstar.tyrfingr.is] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 jasox [~jasox@effic.me] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 yeltzooo7 [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:48 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.49.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:42:10 Xach: nyef asks how come the Boston Meeting is not in the calendar 15:42:54 superflit [~superflit@71-218-207-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:44:29 I have been Busy 15:45:13 *Xach* adds it now 15:48:32 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 15:54:03 jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-50-180-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:54:28 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:55:46 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:56:45 Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 -!- jjkola [~androirc@193-64-21-63-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:57:50 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 16:06:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@188045063055.atmpu0058.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:07:04 Xach: will you go to the meeting ? 16:09:21 -!- jjkola_ is now known as jjkola 16:11:06 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.54] has joined #lisp 16:11:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.54] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:07 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:57 xpololz [~xpololz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 16:23:48 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:24:28 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:24:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:04 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:29:17 gko [~user@42-75-213-129.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:18 ermmahgawd, there's a toronto lisp meetup on tuesday, what will I wear?!?! 16:29:57 Wear a pair of parenthesis. 16:31:50 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:55 Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:37:10 antoszka: i strongly advise you to advise him to wear more than just a pair of parenthesis. 16:37:20 ;) 16:37:48 Did you look up the weather for Toronto next week and found it's going to be chilly? 16:38:34 no, i'm just not so much into public nudity :) 16:39:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:42:10 fe[nl]ix: no 16:42:44 steffi_s [~marioooh@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 16:47:21 -!- xpololz [~xpololz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:34 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-38-195.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:47:38 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 Kryztof: Hey. 16:49:09 Kryztof: Does your group still use McClim some? 16:49:13 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:49:46 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:13 not really 16:50:36 I've been off in startup land for the last two years and the rest of them have reimplemented lute tablature editing in javascript :-) 16:50:48 Oh wow. 16:50:49 hi, by the way :-) 16:50:52 Hi there! 16:52:30 I find myself doing some McClim work, contemplating using it for a project using OpenGL and/or OpenVG (infinite infrastructre work, yay), and am realizing that the multiprocessing situation is a total rat's nest. Was wondering if you had any thoughts. 16:53:28 ! 16:53:34 hey moore! 16:53:46 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:49 antifuchs: Hey, you might have some insight into that question too ;) 16:54:02 hahaha, I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit! 16:54:06 it's the only way to be sure (; 16:54:11 No doubt. 16:54:41 Dueling movie quotes, from Excalibur (which my son has been watching): "A dream to some, a nightmare to others!" 16:55:51 I don't remember the mp being hopeless 16:56:10 I used to run multiple apps from within one sbcl without any brokenness attributable to threading :) 16:56:30 Well yes, me too. 16:56:51 maybe that was just because all the other bugs hit first :-/ 16:57:31 In McClim, we have an event thread that distributes events. It either calls the appropriate gadget callbacks, or puts the event on a queue which will be read by another thread that is blocking on a stream read. 16:58:49 The event thread can eventually cause handle-repaint on panes/gadgets to be called... and the other threads can make graphics calls to in response to input events. That strikes me as problematic. 17:00:07 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:13 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:32 xpololz [~xpololz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 steffi_s [~marioooh@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 17:03:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.30.65] has joined #lisp 17:03:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.30.65] has quit [Changing host] 17:03:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:03:33 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:44 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-138-81-252.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:10:45 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:11:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-106-67-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:12:35 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-38-195.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:12:52 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d857ea4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:17 kennyd [kennyd@78-1-156-70.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:15:02 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:14 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@70.42.157.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:17:41 black_joe [~Kale@75.104.132.171] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:52 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.180] has joined #lisp 17:22:43 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:23:23 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:41 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 17:24:21 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 17:28:01 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:48 ka2be [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:29:48 ka2be_ [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:34:28 -!- cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:41 cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:36:48 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:18 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:39:39 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-38-195.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 17:41:05 moog_ [45ae3a5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.174.58.92] has joined #lisp 17:42:17 Hilarously, MAP-BIND also automatically works to improve the readability of REDUCE calls. I didn't even design for this! Some actual usage "examples" at: https://github.com/Hexstream/cartesian-product-case/blob/master/main.lisp 17:46:50 michael_1 [~michael@ip-64-134-170-51.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:47:32 does anyone have any good experience with soap libraries for common lisp? 17:48:23 has anyone had good experiences with soap libraries in *any* language? 17:48:45 well no, :) 17:49:02 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-195-156.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 17:49:06 michael_1: the last time i had to call a soap service from CL, i faked the messages with HTML-TEMPLATE 17:50:26 hmm.. 17:50:35 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 17:50:38 what I was hoping to build was a generic cli testing app 17:50:52 that would hit a wsdl 17:51:24 looks like I'd have to build the metadata processing from scratch 17:51:26 I think more than one person here has whipped up some kind of soap library that isn't public. 17:51:30 -!- ka2be [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:30 -!- ka2be_ [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:10 the last time I looked at SOAP, the existing client / server libraries in any language, let alone just Lisp, were not particularly interoperable 17:52:16 ka2be_ [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:52:16 ka2be [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:52:39 I here you--I do .NET web services at work and have to do some hacking on the Java clients 17:52:45 I mostly remember being made utterly miserable 17:53:45 yeah. oops, gotta run 17:53:48 -!- michael_1 [~michael@ip-64-134-170-51.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:54:55 -!- ka2be_ [~ka2be@KD027083117212.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:52 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:00:36 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:47 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-178-002-092-106.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 18:03:20 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has joined #lisp 18:06:09 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:16 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:11:00 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:11:18 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:11:48 madnificent: I'm for the Ferengi clothing rules. 18:12:22 pjb: ... 18:13:02 Purely from an esthetic point of view :-) 18:15:59 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:24:27 -!- gko [~user@42-75-213-129.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:28:03 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: good bye] 18:28:20 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 18:29:42 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:47 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:02 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:11 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 18:38:30 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:16 kanru [~kanru@187.74.244.82] has joined #lisp 18:39:16 gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:52 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:43:47 I promise not to use any SOAP library that gets written for any language 18:44:01 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:47:29 jasom: the true illness is not SOAP... it's the gross misuse of tools 18:47:43 you can do the same with json, ASN.1, whatever 18:48:38 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:42 -!- kanru [~kanru@187.74.244.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:49:00 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:25 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:43 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:25 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:54 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 18:51:17 p_l: well the 2 times I encountered SOAP, it was "let's see if we can take the already bloated CORBA, use XML as the encoding, and then wrap it in more XML then wrap it in a request that looks just enough like HTTP to let it go through proxies 18:52:32 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 jasom: Yeah... I had the luxury of learning about SOAP from a book which described it in depth, instead of "let's generate bloated 2NF XML from this java class hierarchy and push it through SOAP in RPC mode" 18:53:00 stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has joined #lisp 18:53:40 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:01 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A697.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:06 kanru [~kanru@187.74.244.82] has joined #lisp 18:56:44 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 18:56:51 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:46 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:12 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01:25 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:28 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:57 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:06 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:47 jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:08:52 ghast [~user@host191.200-45-151.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 Yuuhi [benni@p54839764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:12 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.180] has left #lisp 19:10:39 -!- moog_ is now known as whiteCatRunning 19:14:09 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:30 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d857ea4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:18:54 *Xach* gives up on oracle for today 19:21:35 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 -!- axion 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20:34:59 pjb: their ears look like they contain multiple parens, so i guess that's the best of both worlds 20:35:32 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:23 paolo_m [~user@adsl-ull-143-217.49-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 20:39:26 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-38-195.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:45:55 -!- cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: reboot] 20:46:51 francogrex [~user@109.130.184.144] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:53 asvil [~asvil@178.121.13.75] has joined #lisp 20:53:36 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-137-86.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:36 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:55:56 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 20:56:00 Greetings lispers 20:56:27 Good day ThomasH 20:57:13 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-152-254.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:58:49 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 21:00:34 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:48 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:36 if I keep blowing the default stack in sbcl, does that usually mean I'm trying to do too much at once, I'm doing something wrong, or does it simply mean I need to modify the run flags or recompile sbcl? 21:02:02 *clintm* tries to do it 'right'... for a given value of 'right'. 21:02:05 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:02:23 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:54 run-flags! 21:03:20 --dynamic-space-size 1656 --control-stack-size 16 21:03:25 gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:36 stack default is 4 21:03:49 it might be that you're doing something odd 21:03:59 but your problem maybe just memory 21:04:02 The only time I run out of stack is if I've done something wrong. 21:04:08 whether that odd thing is "right" or "wrong" depends on what you're actually trying to achieve 21:04:22 or you have bugs in your libs that you load, or in the files that you load with the init 21:04:32 so it barfs 21:05:16 when i use no --dynamic-space-size mine barfs too, cause i load too many libs at once.... 21:05:20 well, I was sure that I would do it eventually. I'm using lparallel to do batch text processing. 21:06:19 do run flags create incompatibilities with saved images? 21:06:33 nevermind, I can find that out on my own. durf. 21:06:42 heh 21:07:01 ofc 21:08:47 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:09:08 -!- ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:09:30 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 21:09:48 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 21:11:13 -!- FreeTux is now known as Tuxedo 21:12:49 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:01 piko_ [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 21:14:36 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-197-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:06 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:18:37 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:21:18 redline6561: too bad :( 21:21:27 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:46 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.184.144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:40 -!- paolo_m [~user@adsl-ull-143-217.49-151.net24.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:27:53 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 21:34:27 bitonic` [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:41 -!- jjkola_ [~androirc@193-64-22-36-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:37:40 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:38:16 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@70-35-47-130.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:39:28 -!- clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:40:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-177-176.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:41:32 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.13.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:54 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:48 -!- bitonic` [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:45:47 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:46:40 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:49:13 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 21:50:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:24 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:57:38 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:00:48 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-137-86.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 22:02:15 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:05:36 *stassats* discovered that there's an END loop keyword, but which is quite useless 22:07:40 unless you nest IFs heavily 22:08:47 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:08:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.34.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:01 and i didn't think that ELSE could be used with both UNLESS and WHEN, contrary to UNLESS and WHEN functions 22:10:04 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c370a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:33 and, turns out, END is exactly what i was looking for, not that useless after all 22:14:36 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 22:15:21 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:15:24 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 22:15:33 oh, i wish it allowed "finally collect x" instead of this pesky END 22:18:20 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:19:42 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:12 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:30 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:22:01 pskosinski [~pk@public-gprs303697.centertel.pl] has joined #lisp 22:22:42 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:57 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:30 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:26:17 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 22:26:46 -!- pskosinski [~pk@public-gprs303697.centertel.pl] has left #lisp 22:27:42 stassats: push/nreverse, you know you want to. 22:28:20 someday i'll write a backwards compatible LOOP, but better 22:30:17 stassats: MIT loop? 22:30:44 extending MIT loop is one option, yes 22:32:11 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:33:09 stassats: hardly possible, IMO. The main problem of loop is the syntax. I never used it, but iterate is probably the better loop. 22:33:32 -!- ngz [~user@254.214.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:33:39 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:52 well, i happened to like loop syntax 22:33:53 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good night/gute nacht/dobranoc] 22:34:04 it's good enough. 22:34:13 save for the cumbersome hashtable iterations 22:41:46 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:44:28 -!- whiteCatRunning [45ae3a5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.174.58.92] has left #lisp 22:49:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:40 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:18 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-179-249.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:49 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:49 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:57:41 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:41 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:57:41 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:58:33 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has joined #lisp 23:03:18 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:30 loop is basically many custom iterations built into one ,with some massive smart macro? 23:06:19 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:06:29 it's not smart, it's behaviour is precisely prescribed 23:06:32 its 23:07:15 i'm aware of this macro but not yet familiar with all the options it provides. 23:07:34 (loop for X in Y do ... ) is as far as i've used it so far 23:09:00 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:09:42 -!- xpololz [~xpololz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:09:45 is anyone familiar with all the options? :) 23:10:08 familiar, yes 23:11:56 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Going down for teh reboot] 23:11:58 one 'pattern' i found myself writing in C alot - i wonder what the best way in lisp is: 23:12:31 for each item in a collection { compute a given scoring function; find the item that has the largest score } 23:12:48 can't do that with LOOP 23:13:11 you'd have to do that manually 23:13:31 its that sort of thing i'd always tried to assist with macros in c but it gets clunky 23:13:52 macros? why macros? 23:14:07 some combination of macros and templates .. helper functions 23:14:18 bear in mind C++ only got lambdas recently 23:14:23 C has templates? 23:14:32 C/C++ 23:15:00 i think you can figure out what i mean from context 23:15:07 maybe with iterate: (iter (for item in collection) (do-what-you-want) (maximize some-value)) 23:15:24 my favorite cartoon in all of Land of Lisp is about loop and format: http://www.scribd.com/doc/90854391/136/LOOP-AND-FORMAT-THE-SEEDY-UNDERBELLY-OF-LISP 23:15:34 or (iter (for item in collection (maximize (do-what-you-want item))) 23:15:37 ) 23:17:21 maybe i'd wrap it (findbest for from then ) 23:18:24 iterate is like loop 23:18:28 why not just (defun extremize (function sequence &key key) ...)? 23:18:51 maybe 23:19:25 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:58 should be parallelizable, e.g. computing cost function per item . 23:23:57 and an implementation might be able to take advantage of knowing the cost function evalulations are a temporary to be discarded 23:24:04 that won't necessarily produce faster results 23:24:29 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:24:32 fine grain parallelize with simd perhaps or coarse grain with threading 23:26:35 i don't really see how simd fits here 23:27:54 on some systempermutes are fast. you load 4 consecutive independant structures into registers, permute them into SIMD with homogeneous dat per register , then do the calculation 23:28:32 then permute baack and store 23:29:10 SIMD = fine grain parallelism 23:29:20 that's highly specialized, you can't do it with arbitrary functions on arbitrary sequences 23:30:36 one could start building a general purpose macro - then perhaps build a custom language backend with that macro having a special intrinsic implementation 23:31:15 dan [~dan@gateway/tor-sasl/dan] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 google disagrees on what fine-grained parallelism is 23:31:53 duh. 23:31:54 Alfa64 [~quassel@190.191.176.143] has joined #lisp 23:32:17 some parallelism suits SIMD (which is why cpu's have simd instruction). other parallelism suits multicore (wihch is why cpus are multicore) 23:32:31 i christen these two cases, "fine grain" and "coarse grain" 23:32:36 hey i just found this nice vim plugin which is very useful for lisp http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=4176 23:32:38 first of all, why are you so fixed on macros? 23:32:48 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.133.174.113] has joined #lisp 23:33:18 they're why i'm here in lisp. if i didn't want to customize the language i'd stick with a language with a better pre-determined infix syntax 23:34:11 Alfa64: I used that 3 years ago with scheme, then I learned how to read lisp without looking at the parens too much and haven't needed it since. 23:34:16 What you're talking about isn't related to macros. Like in SBCL you'd just define a transform to turn calls to extremize with whatever types to some fancy underlying thing. 23:34:17 Bike, memo from pjb: most reader macros hurt newbies understanding what's happening. Tutorials should avoid most reader macros for a longer time, before introducing reader macro shortcuts. 23:34:28 customizing it even where it doesn't need to be customized is a bad strategy 23:34:42 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 23:35:05 learn lisp first, then worry about customizing or whatnot 23:35:14 n00b6502: If macros didn't exist I'd still prefer lisp over pretty much anything. 23:35:15 lisp is not about macros 23:35:15 well - where i have a specialized backend in mind ... seems like lisp macros are a way of marking out explicitely where such a backend will be invoked 23:35:51 Most compilers expand all the macros before they even get to optimizing, don't they 23:36:06 I'm not sure I'd really use lisp without macros personally 23:36:18 Bike: there's no other way 23:36:22 right. 23:36:35 phadthai: how many macros did you write today? 23:36:52 So no, n00b6502. 23:36:58 well - optimizing means looking for patterns, wheras macros are the opportunity to encode the patterns at "code-writing time" 23:36:58 hmm none, it doesn't mean they're not awesome :) 23:37:19 phadthai: they are a great tool, granted 23:37:41 and any lisp code pretty much uses them, even if not creating new ones 23:38:17 I came for the macros, I stay for SLIME. :) 23:38:25 in this case- "findbest" .. the pattern is that an intermediate is calculated and discarded. its usually written in an imperative loop with compares and dependancies. in a language like C++ you'll have to manually write out where the temporary goes if you want to parallelize it. In other languages, you'll be relying on the garbage collector ffs... 23:38:30 macros are awesome, but conditions, CLOS, SANE scoping rules, simple syntax and a bunch of other things add up to make an awesome language even without them. 23:38:52 pavelpenev: true 23:41:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:42:39 n00b6502: don't optimize prematurely, you won't get anywhere 23:42:50 wow i've never heard that before 23:43:14 i'm looking for something that opens up new possabilities 23:43:23 n00b6502: the beauty of this all is that quite often refactoring of idiomatic lisp code for speed might be easier in the future 23:43:30 learn how compilers work? 23:43:53 some blue sky dreams about macros doesn't sound like new possibilities 23:43:56 sure. i know that compilers have an intermediate stage called the AST. and here's a language that IS an AST 23:43:57 n00b6502: walk before you run. 23:44:11 i've run marathons in C++ 23:44:32 Compilers have more intermediate stages. SBCL has two. 23:44:45 put it this way. 23:45:10 if you were to ask a programmer which language has the best auto-parallelizing (e.g. use of SIMD instructions) whats the answer 23:45:24 i'd guess, fortran 23:45:25 Fortran? 23:45:26 probably "none, you have to write intrinsics or ASM to get best use of SIMD" 23:45:49 ah thats why Fortran is so popular for games programming .... not 23:45:51 didn't fortress have something like that? 23:46:11 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-192-122.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 23:46:43 i dont know fortran but , i gather its very good at array processing 23:46:44 well, if you've come to lisp for auto-vectorization, you're gonna have a bad time 23:47:39 wheras Lisp has actually been used in a context like this: GOAL. using instructions on very tricky custom processor, but from a high level langauge 23:48:39 With a specialized compiler. Not exactly unique to Lisp. 23:49:12 Bike: except lisp makes writing said compiler easier ;) 23:49:34 well, yes. so does having Allegro support and being a well-off game company, of course. 23:49:46 what it seems to be from the marathons and sprints i've done in C++ is that the ability to build your own program constructs would be rather helpful. 23:49:53 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:50:11 your own constructs 23:50:23 lisp is not a magic bullet, i hope you don't delude yourself too much 23:50:24 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 23:50:35 http://web.archive.org/web/20070127022728/http://lists.midnightryder.com/pipermail/sweng-gamedev-midnightryder.com/2005-August/003804.html Here's a sample of GOAL. Not all that high level, like RLET as equivalent to C "register" declaration, etc 23:50:59 Its also too easy to write horrible monstrosities that will haunt your dreams for ever. Exercise taste. 23:51:12 logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:51:24 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:34 SIMD code usually is a horrible monstrosity, what mechanisms could tame it.. 23:51:58 That's an open research area, I'm pretty sure. 23:52:09 bingo. hence why i'm here. 23:52:10 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:53:01 since when did lisp start being a forefront of auto-vectorization research? 23:53:09 But none of that really has to do with macros. GOAL ran on a custom compiler and runtime (which by the way was kind of hacked up, it crashed every so often and such) 23:53:37 ok. so . how about, writing some macros which will later be directly interpreted by a custom compiler.. 23:54:11 Macros are source to source transforms, not source to object. 23:54:12 With a compiler, you're hoping a compiler will pick out patterns. 23:54:33 stassats: the language itself may not be, however as code reuse is said to be a silver bullet, one could say that macros can be one of the materials used in the bullet. 23:54:33 optimization can be done source-to-source. many LLVM optimimzations read LLVM, emit same LLVM syntax 23:54:55 stassats: as macros are part of lisp, you could say that lisp may be part of a magic bullet 23:55:27 n00b6502: Check out this great talk by Christophe Grand on macros and DSLs in clojure: http://blip.tv/clojure/christophe-grand-not-dsl-macros-4540700 he cautions against over using macros. 23:55:42 madnificent: macros are more of a dress, not really a big help with code reusal 23:55:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:40 stassats: generic setters are built on top of the macro system, so i'd say that it does have an effect. the macros allow you to abstract more than what was previously possible. compare it with rails's generators for instance. 23:57:12 what is generators setters? 23:57:14 stassats: i agree that it's mostly there to make things prettier, but i believe that that is an important feature. 23:57:15 generic 23:57:19 setf 23:57:36 (on top of which you can build incf decf whateverf) 23:58:49 well, it's a language feature, it could've been done without macros 23:58:54 i know it's not an end-all solution. but the ease with which you can do it, the integration which allows you to stay in the same mindset, can make coding a lot easier. if done right, i'd argue that it can be of great benefit.