00:00:53 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:00:54 quazimodo: It's just my personal opinion. 00:01:13 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 00:01:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:01:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:01:21 There's no precedence rule set burnt in brains. Try to ask any C++ programmer the precedence rules! 00:03:03 hrm 00:03:05 The fact that C compilers must warn of legal code is proof of that! if(a=b+c){} 00:03:13 is the quicklips version of slime good enough? 00:03:20 or must I cvs that 00:04:05 Usually you want the stable version of slime, but most importantly, you want the same version of slime and swank. 00:04:28 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 00:04:35 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:41 That's very important ^ 00:05:46 -!- pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pulse40] 00:07:02 sure, i guess what i'm saying is... should i be using quicklisp or cvs manually? 00:07:22 i have no idea if quicklisp is up to the task 00:07:29 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-19-236.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:32 whether it's up to date or not 00:09:19 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-178.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:12:26 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:35 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:12:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:59 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 00:14:30 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:16:48 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:17:56 (let (s) #i(s = "hello", concatenate('string, s, subseq(",, world", 1)))) 00:18:02 pretty cool :) 00:25:47 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:27:53 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:30 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:37:01 quazimodo: it is pretty up to date. 00:37:19 kanru [~kanru@189.120.166.119] has joined #lisp 00:38:31 quazimodo: i use (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") to get going on new systems 00:39:56 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:07 works like unto a charm 00:43:10 Xach: you should thank the guy that made it :) 00:43:50 oh i do 00:43:53 every day! 00:44:21 i usually make or buy him lunch 00:46:03 *Xach* thinks about giving that swell fella a beer out of his own fridge 00:47:51 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 00:55:04 pjb: well, it feels like my brain is burning when I'm doing C++ :) 00:55:37 *pavelpenev* has had to endure some C++ today 00:55:55 pavelpenev: now, C++ has 27 priority levels. What about prolog which has provision for 1000 priority levels! 00:56:17 (since you can add operators to prolog, specifying the priority level). 00:56:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:56:47 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:57:20 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:57:21 xwolf-: have a look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/245342429c61800/f7966bf3df9f716c?q=objective-cl++group:comp.lang.lisp+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#f7966bf3df9f716c for an even cooler example of a reader macro. 00:57:33 unlike C++ the burning sensation I get in my head when I do prolog is good :) 00:57:47 Indeed. 00:59:11 *pavelpenev* thinks he should learn prolog properly, and not just enough of it to pass his exams. 01:00:00 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:00:35 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:39 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:00:39 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:10:32 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:32 gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:03 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:15:30 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:29 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:22:51 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:43 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:30:16 wow everyone hates c++ 01:31:03 am0c [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has joined #lisp 01:31:41 i'm not sure i could tell you the exact precedence rules but the main ones are eonough. i do probably put more brackets than are needed sometimes to clarify 01:33:09 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:33:39 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:37:51 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:51 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:37:52 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 01:39:21 n00b6502: on the other hand, in lisp, you cannot put more brackets ore parentheses: you can only put the minimal number of meaningful parentheses in a lisp program. 01:39:46 ok less ambigious 01:44:19 (with-extra-parens (((+) (27) (1000)))) 01:46:26 (let ((x 42)) (flet ((x () 33)) (with-extra-parens (((x)))))) ? 01:46:37 phadthai, I will accept your challenge 01:46:53 Quadrescence: Why? I already beat it. 01:47:04 heh 01:47:12 pjb, au contraire! 01:47:34 What will my form return? Why? 01:48:44 pjb, let me write a program to compute it and we will see! 01:48:53 if (x) is a funcall (which with-extra-parens might assume), 33, if not, 42? :) 01:49:08 phadthai: there's two binding to X ! 01:49:22 Why should it stop at (X) and not remove them for X? 01:49:40 well CL is a lisp-2 01:50:12 Furthermore, you can't know what binding there are until run-time, for global fbindings and for global dynamic bindings. 01:50:20 any big developments in the lisp world in the last 12 months? I've been out of touch. 01:50:41 So you will have to try the combination of all parenthesis removal, and see those that don't give an error. 01:50:49 Which means you'll have random side effects. 01:51:01 It's one of the worst features ever proposed, semantically. 01:51:26 gonzojive: trolls on cll ? 01:51:33 and a totally useless one (with-extra-parens, I mean) 01:53:22 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 01:54:29 slime 01:54:32 is freaking amazing 01:55:12 gonzojive: the disappearance of Robert Strandh? 01:55:51 how do I access completion in lisp-mode? 01:55:58 clearly a solution: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131265 01:56:03 M-TAB 01:56:35 exterminate! exterminate! 01:56:58 lol 01:57:03 doesn't wokr. 01:57:04 a testament to the power of lisp that you can do semantic hacks so pointless in ten lines 01:57:19 Bike, haha 01:57:33 Try: (exterminate-extra-parens '((sin) (+ 3 4))) 01:57:53 pjb, Look, I redefined the problem to fit with the solution I had in mind. 01:57:56 pjb: ah. Any great leaps forward technologically speaking? 01:58:05 (typically what I do when customers want something) 01:58:46 Quadrescence: well I admire the try, I didn't bother to try :) 01:58:50 gonzojive: I wrote a CL stepper since ccl doesn't have one. 01:59:23 eldoc error: not connected ? 01:59:31 for CCL, I presume 01:59:44 gonzojive, lisp can work on finitely generated permutation groups 01:59:55 gonzojive: http://pvk.ca/Blog/2012/08/27/tabasco-sort-super-optimal-merge-sort/ here's something fun 02:00:38 how do I access documentation from a quicklisp package in slime? 02:01:24 the same way you access documentation of a regular package in slime? 02:03:11 nice Tabasco article 02:03:30 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:44 alexy [~alexy@imss.chinamobile.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:59 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:04:00 *Quadrescence* can't believe pkhuong went along with that name. 02:04:00 -!- alexy [~alexy@imss.chinamobile.com] has left #lisp 02:04:03 Quadrescence: don't know that either :-/ 02:04:19 Finally, I'm an inspiration to the lisp community, even if very indirectly. 02:04:25 Quadrescence: "finitely generated permutation groups?" Is it time for me to go back to graduate school? 02:05:30 gonzojive, maybe! or just learn what a permutation is and then forget about the technicalities 02:05:38 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:05:40 -!- Tuxedo [~tuxedo@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:05:43 gonzojive, easily do stuff like prove a rubiks cube can't have a flipped edge -- all in Lisp! 02:08:17 Quadrescence, the way you phrased "lisp can work on finitely generated permutation groups" made FGPG sound like a new paradigm for computing 02:08:35 haha :) 02:09:57 n00b6502: It's not that I have C++, but in the 3 years I've been using it at my school I've found 0 reasons to want to learn it well, and more than enough reasons to try and ignore it after I graduate. 02:10:03 hate* 02:10:31 FreeTux [~tuxedo@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:01 i'm aware of its limitations .. but like how direct it is 02:11:12 Direct in what sense? 02:11:40 is this talking-about-c++ in #lisp business going to continue for much longer? I think finitely generated permutation groups are more interesting 02:11:43 direct in the sense of being able to visualize whats going on low level 02:11:44 anything in C++ you like that isn't in C? 02:12:01 templates 02:12:19 thats why i'm interested in lisp, a better macro syystem 02:12:30 Bike, see the README here! https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-permutation 02:12:39 (and it's on quicklisp!) 02:12:45 steffi_s [~marioooh@cpe-67-250-43-211.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:58 I've seen that, actually. I don't suppose you looked at the tabasco sort thing? 02:13:00 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:13:00 fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:32 me? I have. I read it before I got out of bed. 02:13:44 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-165-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:13:54 just because of it using perms, I mean. 02:14:00 -!- fade is now known as Fade 02:14:34 Yeah, I saw it do cycle decomposition. I was going to tell pkhuong to just use cl-permutation, but I'm sure he'd say "too much bloat for a simple little operation" 02:15:05 heh 02:18:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:53 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@cpe-67-250-43-211.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:19:21 -!- xwolf- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 02:24:08 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:24:13 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:25:41 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:32:19 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:01 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 02:38:14 PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.56] has joined #lisp 02:38:47 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:42:12 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 02:42:25 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:42:38 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:42:56 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:56 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:42:56 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 02:43:50 -!- FreeTux is now known as Tuxedo 02:44:35 -!- _veer is now known as lolsuper_ 02:56:48 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:01 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:34 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:03:25 -!- benny [~user@i577A7C20.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:21 -!- PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:44 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:31 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:23 PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.38] has joined #lisp 03:15:50 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:16:49 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839A10.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:04 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:20 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:21:11 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 03:21:19 superflit [~superflit@209-180-241-159.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:22:44 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:25:52 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:18 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:18 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:30:07 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:40 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 03:31:40 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:43 *Quadrescence* is sad that the *MACROEXPAND-HOOK* (lambda (exp f e) (incf *global*) (funcall exp f e)) blows the stack. 03:34:03 how does it do that o.O 03:36:21 I tried doing it with 100k+ lines of code, and the stack got to... let me see 16 MB before falling to the ground. 03:36:55 how does it modify stack dynamics wrt. the norm? 03:37:14 Ralith, That, I have no idea. 03:37:51 yeah idgi either 03:38:38 This is what I did: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131266 03:41:33 Can anyone think of a better way to count the number of macro expansions that occur during a compilation process? 03:41:55 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.166.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:42:49 hmm does setq also cause the problem, vs setf? 03:43:04 oh, that would be nasty. 03:43:56 hmm vs incf (which internally uses the same macro magic as setf) 03:44:09 Well no setf/incf causes nothing to occur (nothing bad) 03:44:32 which is even stranger to me 03:44:40 (this is LispWorks) 03:44:49 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:45:00 setf/incf expand into some macro, and that's the macro expand hook, possibly producing recursive macroexpansion 03:45:11 s/into some/a/ 03:45:23 phadthai, hm! Good idea 03:45:32 try compiling hook first? 03:46:37 sbcl won't even let me set *macroexpand-hook* to an interpreted function. reasonable. 03:46:54 incf eventually expands (here) into a setq; setq does not expand at all, so... I think setq should be safe. 03:47:19 yes, but when it tries to macroexpand the incf, it will call hook, and then it will try to expand the incf... 03:47:22 (maybe) 03:47:38 so you could try also (setq *global* (1+ *global*)) 03:47:41 Bike, I think that's the issue as phadthai explained 03:47:53 phadthai: or just ensuring hook is compiled. 03:47:57 yes 03:48:35 Yes, it works now. 03:49:23 nice 03:49:28 maybe you should suggest to lispworks that they warn you when you set the hook to an interpreted function? 03:49:42 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:49:53 Bike, probably a good idea. 03:51:59 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has joined #lisp 03:53:02 hm, fewer expansions than I expected. ~500k 03:53:39 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.169.55.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53:51 gcv [~gcv@c-76-126-148-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:16 phadthai: ahh, that makes sense. 03:55:23 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.169.55.21] has joined #lisp 03:56:49 hmm I'm trying to crash ecl with a lambda using incf and am not succeeding heh 03:57:01 but I guess it compiles to bytecode on the fly 03:57:12 :) 03:57:34 booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:37 # - COMPILED-FUNCTION 03:58:41 so its interpreter-mode is a bytecode interpreter and macros are already expanded 04:04:58 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:12:50 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:14:58 gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:15 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:16:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-67-188-215-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:14 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-160.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:21 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:18:42 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:18:45 -!- robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:54 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-19-236.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:20:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.169.55.21] has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:20:35 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-135.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:46 -!- gcv [~gcv@c-76-126-148-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gcv] 04:31:01 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:22 Here was my attempt at a non-polluting COUNT-MACRO-EXPANSIONS macro: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/5916d00a06bd/macroexpand-count.lisp 04:35:45 Quadrescence: would checking for (macro-function 'setq) tell you if setq's a macrO? 04:36:30 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078992.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:01 setq is a special operator. It could be defined as a macro so indeed. 04:37:41 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:45 Bike, yes 04:37:57 fffde [~shawn@222.126.194.154] has joined #lisp 04:38:31 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078992.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:38:45 Bike, however, I'm not sure that being able to check is advantageous to enhancing the definition to work more portably 04:38:55 Otherwise you can always use (compile nil (lambda )) 04:39:07 I suppose if you were feeling really paranoid you could (let ((real-hook (compile nil ...))) `(...(flet ((hook (e f env) (funcall real-hook e f env) ... 04:39:25 pjb, that doesn't work in this case because I'm LAMBDA would be closing some variables. 04:39:47 I've not said (compile nil `(lambda )) 04:40:01 pjb, how does that make any difference? 04:40:20 (lambda () ) is a closure. `(lambda ) not. 04:40:56 pjb, that's correct, which is what I'm saying 04:41:01 compile works on interpreted closures, huh? 04:41:08 Yep. 04:41:15 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:41:24 neat. learn something new every time someone comes up with a problem I never considered to need solving 04:41:37 (let ((x 0)) (compile nil (lambda () x))) results in a failure for my lisp. 04:42:05 works on sbcl 04:42:14 It works in all the other implementations. 04:42:33 �The consequences are undefined if the lexical environment surrounding the function to be compiled contains any bindings other than those for macros, symbol macros, or declarations.� Oh, geh. 04:42:37 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 04:42:38 and (funcall ) works everywhere but in cmucl and ecl. 04:42:53 :-( 04:43:05 So yo have to insert the values you want with ` , 04:43:11 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:16 he wants to be able to alter the value. 04:43:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131267 04:44:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-135.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:44:44 How about use a SPECIAL gensym? 04:45:25 Then use compile-file. That's a strange restriction on compile 04:45:59 pjb, I prefer to have things work in both compiled and interpreted environments 04:46:19 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:46:56 Bike, good idea... 04:47:07 My point is that in implementations that have an interpreter, if they refuse to compile closures, it becomes impossible to set a *macroexpand-hook* ! 04:48:09 �The original motivation [for the restriction] was "Many implementations cannot correctly compile functions that are defined interpretively in a non-null lexical environment, because the compiler and interpreter use different representations for closures." 04:48:29 whatever. 04:48:33 Bike, That wouldn't work, because the extent of the variable is limited 04:48:53 The alternative to write conforming *macroexpand-hook*s is to write your own minimal-compiler 04:49:07 incoming pjb's minimal compiler in 3... 2... 1... 04:49:18 Quadrescence: er, what? 04:49:45 Bike, erm... wait, I might have mistaken an error for what I said there 04:49:49 Which means you have to provide your own CL macros, since the implementation may use an implementation specific special operator in them , which doesn't necessarily have a macroexpansion. 04:50:15 I mean, if CL implementations were like C implementations, we'd be really fucked off. 04:50:18 like (let ((,count 0)) (declare (special ,count)) (flet ((,hook (...) (declare (special ,count)), I think that should work. 04:51:03 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:34 hum, sbcl in eval mode errors out on compiling a closure too. 04:54:37 Bike, This seems to work, though it doesn't work equivalently to the one above when you nest COUNT-MACRO-EXPANSIONS: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/dca5f7814e23/macroexpand-count.lisp#cl-36 04:54:55 Bike, pretty clever idea 04:55:55 um... make the macro itself close around the gensym and expand into nothing if it's already bound, maybe 04:56:10 (setf *macroexpand-hook* (funcall (compile nil (let ((x 0)) `(lambda () (let ((x ,x)) (lambda (a b c) (incf x) (funcall a b c)))))))) 04:56:39 xscc [~xscc@123.160.133.245] has joined #lisp 04:57:51 pjb, in the example I pasted I also want to use X outside of the scope of the LAMBDA 04:57:55 that's impressively twisted, but you still need to get x out. or does that do that? 04:58:48 (defvar *closures* (funcall (compile nil (let ((x 0)) `(lambda () (let ((x ,x)) (list (lambda (a b c) (incf x) (funcall a b c)) (lambda () x) ))))))) (setf *macroexpand-hook* (first *closures*)) (funcall (second *closures*)) 04:59:14 good lord. 04:59:16 Bike, I don't think it does that, since that outer LET's variable isn't modified 04:59:33 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:54 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 05:01:26 The outer let is useless really. 05:01:38 You can just write the initial value inside the lambda expression. 05:04:32 leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has joined #lisp 05:06:37 -!- xscc [~xscc@123.160.133.245] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:06:47 i just discovered 'clojure' has a macro that i called 'pipe' .. (defun lerp( lo hi f) (pipe (- hi lo)(* f)(+ lo))) ..-> 05:06:57 makes me feel a little less crazy :) 05:07:17 pjb, I'm getting "undefined variable X", haven't determined why yet. 05:08:16 oh, my fault 05:08:52 -!- `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:09:14 pjb, that seems to work too. nice purely lexical solution 05:09:34 (though a bit hairy :) 05:11:52 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 05:12:17 `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:38 xscc [~xscc@123.160.133.245] has joined #lisp 05:13:47 (here are the solutions integrated in: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/e02e52e63759/macroexpand-count.lisp ) 05:14:09 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:46 -!- xscc [~xscc@123.160.133.245] has quit [Client Quit] 05:15:00 do lisp implementations used tagged memory , e.g. ints are 30 bits with 2 used for tags or somethign ... or do they put the tags elsewhere 05:15:20 n00b6502, they aren't required to but often do 05:15:48 i guess with an MMU i's just as easy to stick the tags in a bitfield mirroring the rest 05:15:59 -!- `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:16:36 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-dpyjufmsnfgpwram] has joined #lisp 05:16:36 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-dpyjufmsnfgpwram] has quit [Changing host] 05:16:36 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:16:56 the size of fixnum is implementation dependent too 05:17:31 (and usually varies with architecture in the same implementation) 05:18:44 -!- PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:19:41 I wonder if, in pjb's suggestion, the inner lambdas necessarily need to be compiled lambdas, or if the compiler can compile an outer lambda and produce two inner interpreted lambdas 05:22:18 No, it should compile the inner lambdas. 05:22:39 But then we don't really care. What matters, is that it must do the minimal compilation on them: so no more macros. 05:22:46 yeah 05:23:15 That's the only thing that COMPILE has to do, the minimal compilation. 05:23:24 right 05:27:32 `fogus|away [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:04 asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has joined #lisp 05:30:33 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:37:29 PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.92] has joined #lisp 05:41:48 logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44:12 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.180] has joined #lisp 05:48:25 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 05:53:08 whats the difference between set, setq, setf 05:54:09 did you check out CLHS? 05:54:16 the general case is setf. setf is used for all places 05:55:32 asvil, though with (defvar x (list 'x)), (set (car x) 5) and (setf (car x)) will not have the same effect :) 05:58:36 Varargs... Looks like I'll have some more fun with macros. 06:00:06 -!- jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-72-200-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:00:50 Quadrescence: yes, I simplified answer about set* 06:01:10 (I actually know you know, I just wanted to say it anyway for the sake of clarification.) 06:02:45 would you just use a (list ...) where a python programmer would use a tuple. (i've just read about 'destructuring-bind') 06:02:45 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:03 n00b6502: Yes. 06:03:25 -!- booguie [~booguie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:26 I think an array is a little closer to the general idea of a tuple 06:03:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:03:36 (or more specifically, a simple-vector) 06:05:30 lcc_ [~lcc@75-173-72-107.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:36 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:05:48 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:51 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:07:14 jewel [~jewel@196-210-138-20.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:08:50 momo-reina [~user@122.179.111.167] has joined #lisp 06:09:05 Oh yeah, Quadrescence is right. Tuples are O(1). 06:11:06 strictly speaking, a mathematical tuple is just a product of N types, equipped with N projections from the tuple space to each individual type, which doesn't necessarily require O(1) access. 06:11:26 I meant Python's tuple. 06:11:56 i see 06:11:56 'anonymous struct' is what i think of it as 06:11:57 bearr [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 06:12:06 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 06:12:37 Quadrescence: a "mathematical tuple" doesn't have computational complexity. 06:13:04 Ralith, that is kind of what I am saying by the "not necessarily part" 06:14:04 -!- recived [~recived@ns.unatlib.org.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:19 it might be what you meant, but it's not what you said. 06:15:28 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:37 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 06:15:58 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:16:02 Ralith, The only reason a "mathematical tuple" doesn't have computational complexity associated with it is simply because it's not required for the definition. However for any pragmatic construction, complexity will crop up sooner or later. 06:16:36 Quadrescence: it has no more relevance than color or proximity to jupiter. 06:16:42 ok: (vector. ..) or #( ..) will return something with dynamic sizing, but there's also "make-array" for a fixed size? 06:16:43 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013b3d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:55 should i make a macro (tuple ....) :) 06:17:07 n00b6502: Do it. 06:17:08 Ralith, it has plenty of relevance: we are talking about programming, in which we can embed the mathematical idea 06:17:17 vector doesn't imply dynamic sizing. this isn't C++ 06:17:35 Quadrescence: if you are talking about programming, do not represent yourself as talking about math :P 06:17:47 heh as they do in #haskell 06:17:55 Ralith, the two aren't mutually exclusive 06:18:07 n00b6502: if you want a resizable vector just pass the appropriate options to make-array. 06:18:09 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:19:58 macro (tuple..) and another for destrustructing version of 'setf' (setf src (tuple x y z )) .... (sett (x y z) src) 06:20:13 Quadrescence: nor are they interchangable. 06:20:15 you sure like weird macros. 06:20:16 'destructuring bind' seems to be like a let (scoped) 06:20:26 yeah . bend the language to my will 06:20:28 Ralith, fortunately i haven't interchanged them yet. 06:20:53 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 06:21:05 Quadrescence: yes, you've just munged them together carelessly :P 06:21:27 destructuring-bind usually expands to let, check out (macroexpand-1 '(destructuring-bind (a b) list)) 06:21:37 Ralith, i disagree, but i'll concede as to not stink up the channel with non-lisp stuff 06:22:19 fair enough 06:22:29 (defun (dot v0 v1)(sett (x0 y0 z0) v0 (x1 y1 z1) v1) (+(* x0 x1)(* y0 y1)(* z0 z1))) 06:22:45 oops 1 bracket misplaced at the start 06:23:06 thats what it'll look like 06:23:07 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:23:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:23:21 n00b6502, this isn't C++: SETT can't introduce new lexical bindings with the syntax you provided 06:23:34 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:36 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:23:36 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:36 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:23:56 'setf' does though doesn't it? what i've got in mind is a macro sett expanding out to setf 06:24:20 (defun dot (&rest vs) (reduce #'+ (map 'vector #'* vs))) 06:24:29 and no, setf doesn't establish lexical bindings. 06:24:32 n00b6502, no it does nopt 06:24:35 -p 06:25:16 n00b6502, try: (defun foo () (setf x 0)) (foo) 06:25:25 and then evaluate x 06:26:08 (defun lerp (a b f)(setf diff (- b a))(+(* diff)a)) <--- this seems to work for me in the REPL 06:26:17 perhaps the repl is different 06:26:33 clisp on linux 06:26:49 n00b6502, and type "diff" after you call that function 06:26:50 type diff in the repl after calling that function 06:27:04 dont want it outside of the function, just inside 06:27:14 definitely want a local - just not nested 06:27:29 arrghh ouch 06:27:42 How are you learning lisp exactly? Still just flailing around? 06:27:46 its there. its a global?! 06:27:58 as said, setf doesn't introduce lexical bindings 06:28:02 shockhorror.gif 06:28:09 n00b6502: you should read an introductory lisp book. 06:28:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:28:49 so to make locals you need let and nesting.. 06:28:57 yes, as it should be 06:29:30 i guess thats not so bad if its n-ary 06:30:01 -!- lcc_ [~lcc@75-173-72-107.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:05 (defun dot (v0 v1)(lett ((x0 y0 z0) v0 (x1 y1 z1) v1) (+(* x0 x1)(* y0 y1)(* z0 z1)))) 06:30:22 it'll work like that 06:30:25 What's wrong with the definition I gave you, out of curiosity. 06:30:56 well, other than that I got it wrong 06:31:00 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 06:31:07 ha ha 06:31:33 that version will work given (vector x y z) arguments ? 06:31:34 but the general theme of map, reduce, etc 06:31:43 n-ary dot-product also... 06:32:04 gko [~user@59-120-37-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:11 n00b6502: why aren't you reading an introductory lisp book? 06:32:16 sure - i can see its nice and elegant with map/reduce etc, i just want to see how things look with struct acesss 06:32:21 (apply #'map ...), there we go. 06:32:43 And yes, it works on arbitrary vectors. You can think this way if you don't get bogged down in weird syntactic macro definitions. 06:32:54 why not reading a book ... REPL + a little program + web + irc is more fun 06:33:06 - 06:34:31 that approach got you to create global variables willy nilly without knowing about it 06:34:48 when i come to cross product i want the destructuring approach, although one could probably do it algorithmically too 06:35:06 yeah that does suck but i can go back and replace them. 06:35:19 But why. It means defining a bunch of weird macros, and you restrict it to one length. It's totally pointless. 06:35:52 cross product will be 3d 06:36:14 (defun dot (a b) (reduce (function +) (map 'vector (function *) a b))) 06:36:39 (c++ head could go and use operator overloading for all sorts of axis-values for 2d cross making a z axis vector or whatever) 06:36:42 (dot #(1 2 3 4 5) #(5 4 3 2 1)) => 35 06:36:53 why (function +) instead of #'+ or '+ ? 06:37:02 For a lot of reasons. 06:37:24 name one 06:37:29 The latest being that #'+ is (cl:function +), while (function +) may not be (cl:function +), which may be advantageous. 06:37:55 overloaded? 06:38:23 (not (eq 'cl-stepper:function 'cl:function)) --> T 06:39:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.31.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:39:10 bad style which he seems to be aiming for -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/131279 06:39:22 pjb you are insane 06:39:52 if you 'setf' within a let.. is that local. (let ((x 10)) (setf x 15)) 06:40:03 Quadrescence: can't work 06:40:13 pjb, what? 06:40:22 you have a single loop, but you pass a vector and a list! 06:40:36 ok that works 06:40:43 Ah, sorry, it works, you're looping on the variables, not on the elements. ok. 06:40:55 n00b6502: just read a book. you'll get a more coherent and good presentation then you'll get by asking us. 06:41:11 bearr: just try to use my stepper and feel the pain from #'. 06:41:14 a vector has more chance of compiling to SIMD instructions ? 06:41:35 bearr: but otherwise, mainly I don't use #' because it's too pointy, it hurts. I prefer the roundness of parentheses. 06:41:43 n00b6502, in addition to what Bike, a book will probably deter you from this horrendous style your style of "learning" seems to be perpetuating 06:42:07 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:42:35 pjb :) 06:42:57 Quadrescence: I think it'd be more efficient to use (map 'list (function list) variables sequence) 06:42:58 this notion is going through my head. could i bend the language to my will with macros, then write a front end that translates an algol syntax to it , and voila a sane language for me 06:43:12 Just write a compiler. 06:43:14 n00b6502: yes, you can. 06:43:30 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:43:38 n00b6502: but once you'll have learned enough lisp to do that, you'll understand why it'd be silly to do that. 06:43:51 pjb, That won't work at compile time if the structure of VALUE isn't known. 06:43:54 Ie why your language won't be as sane as lisp. 06:44:23 Quadrescence: right. Time to go to bed for me. Good night. 06:44:31 goodnight 06:44:41 -!- momo-reina [~user@122.179.111.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:20 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:21 using lisp as an AST for self-indulgent-language 06:45:30 using lisp as an AST/'backend' for self-indulgent-language 06:53:58 serious implementation question, is it likely that any implementations will be able to figure out (float,float,float,float) can go in a simd register. or perhaps thats better done with an intrinsic type in a customiezd implementation 06:54:17 fevon [~fevon@dslb-188-098-075-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:29 SBCL can (possibly with some patches), I think 06:57:50 yet another q, has lisp been used for gpgpu in a manner analogous to goal 06:58:18 has anyone of you read "Land of Lisp"? 06:58:21 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:53 n00b6502: I know there's a cl-gpu library for writing CUDA kernels. 06:58:58 I wonder how "far" it teaches 06:59:21 is still good if you know your s-expressions, mapcar, looping, tail-recursion etc? 07:00:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-138-20.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:01:51 -!- fevon [~fevon@dslb-188-098-075-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:52 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:03:47 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 07:05:34 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:14:21 -!- ow [icxcnika@freenode/weird-exception/network-troll/afterdeath] has left #lisp 07:17:31 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:18:21 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:19:32 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 07:21:29 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:21:51 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 07:28:14 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 07:28:41 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:13 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 Cool, Quicklisp uses the site's system if it has one. 07:29:39 s/one/it 07:30:23 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:02 Dratiniyeon [~TaiHaoLe@ip70-179-167-78.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:11 Let it be known that the owner of a french-based shock site lives at this address: http://goo.gl/maps/v8ZGe Therefore, he may not be safe any longer. Teach Sam Hocevar of "zoy" and "nimp" to find a better hobby. 07:34:43 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:34:46 If anyone's been offended by visiting those sites, that's the owner's house. If you live or will be anywhere near there, please teach him a lesson! 07:37:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.23.52] has joined #lisp 07:37:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.23.52] has quit [Changing host] 07:37:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:37:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-60-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:43 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.217.247] has joined #lisp 07:40:17 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 07:40:29 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-92.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: gone.] 07:41:36 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:06 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 07:43:25 -!- DataLinkDroid is now known as DataLink 07:43:55 -!- DataLink is now known as Guest95829 07:44:03 -!- Guest95829 is now known as DataLinkDroid 07:44:03 DT`` [~ea@host135-192-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:44:18 -!- logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:45:19 Some foreign functions have a similar version of themselves that allows passing a `va_list' instead of being vararg with the hope of being easier for binding writers. With Lisp and CFFI, I actually think they aren't. 07:45:23 -!- DT` [~ea@host233-153-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:46:07 -!- DataLinkDroid is now known as DataLinkD2 07:47:17 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:20 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:47:30 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:47:30 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:49:56 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.149.217.247] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:50:21 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.217.247] has joined #lisp 07:50:57 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 07:51:05 -!- DataLinkDroid is now known as DataLinkD2 07:51:22 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 07:55:28 DT` [~ea@host171-174-dynamic.247-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:57:06 -!- DT`` [~ea@host135-192-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:58:20 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:58:29 -!- Dratiniyeon [~TaiHaoLe@ip70-179-167-78.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:59:08 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:00:54 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:02:58 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:19 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-164-28.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 08:07:04 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:07:19 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:31 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:10:54 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:11:43 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.149.217.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:11:53 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:13:06 Actually, I have no idea how to use `va_list' from �C. Go macros. 08:13:11 -!- _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:13:18 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:15:16 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 didi if I understand you right, sbcl-only solution is adding vop for pushing arguments to stack and calling function. 08:16:57 kanru [~kanru@189.120.166.119] has joined #lisp 08:17:01 asvil: I don't know what is `vop', but it sounds like the right direction for `va_list'. I was initially hoping to use it but nah... I think there are better solutions for this. Thanks. 08:18:15 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:20:11 didi: vop probably is virtual machine operator, and yes it is the lowest level to solve problem, therefore the most difficult. 08:20:22 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-144-137-66-3.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has joined #lisp 08:21:23 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:58 asvil: The strategy now is constructing a `foreign-funcall' based on the arguments of a wrapper macro. Seems more sane. 08:22:53 -!- bearr [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 08:22:57 -!- fffde [~shawn@222.126.194.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:24:42 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:24:42 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:25:18 fevon [~holger@2001:7c0:409:8001:21f:c6ff:fe26:3105] has joined #lisp 08:25:29 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:25:58 -!- _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:25:59 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:27:39 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 08:27:51 _tca [~tca@thewired.me] has joined #lisp 08:27:59 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:06 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:28:36 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:31 Any suggestion for a FFI library to the R statistics programme? RCL v. RCLG? 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has joined #lisp 10:51:28 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:51:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:52:09 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:53:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:54:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:59:25 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:05:05 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:05:15 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:10:29 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:10:53 Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:13:48 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 11:13:57 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:50 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:59 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:16:07 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:23:49 gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has joined #lisp 11:24:18 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:13 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:32:04 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-60-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:33:42 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:36:34 so quiet today... 11:38:29 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-182.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:18 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-160.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:43:43 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:43:49 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:44:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:45:30 gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has joined #lisp 11:46:15 -!- `fogus|away is now known as `fogus 11:46:40 ams: lispers are too busy coding lisp-os :) 11:48:33 phadthai: Didn't we finish that one with the CADR, Bolix, and whatever back in the 70s? 11:48:42 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:48:58 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-133.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:20 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 11:55:29 -!- PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:56:49 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:10 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.248] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 12:00:24 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:24 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:18 hmph... 12:03:24 quicklisp isn't liking me today... or asdf 12:03:38 Component :ASDF does not match version 2.23, required by # 12:04:07 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-54-83.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:04:47 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:51 -!- maxm-- [~user@openchat.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:04:51 maxm-- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 12:04:56 -!- maxm-- is now known as maxm 12:05:00 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:07:59 quazimodo 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[~pk@public-gprs404127.centertel.pl] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:46:13 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-33-35.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:47:30 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-139-121.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47:38 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:48:52 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:50:54 ams, computer programs are not thinks that can "like" you 12:51:01 *things 12:51:56 not yet anyway 12:54:05 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 MHD [50478707@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.71.135.7] has joined #lisp 12:54:29 Condition of type: HEADACHE-NOT-NOW 12:54:33 Lycurgus: You never meet my computer :-) 12:54:39 Lycurgus: that's debatable. 12:54:49 kanru [~kanru@187.74.240.18] has joined #lisp 12:56:12 prxq, perhaps with others 12:56:21 Qinix [~qinix@124.126.22.57] has joined #lisp 12:56:39 My computer depates it constantly with me. 12:59:09 ams: this is a known issue 12:59:14 you meet with ASDF 12:59:28 ams: earlier I meant neo-lisp-os I guess, but I was kidding 12:59:41 antonv: mm... already fixed it for myself. 12:59:53 how? 12:59:59 antonv: updating asdf obviously... 13:00:19 ams: ah, yes, thats obvious 13:00:30 Just cause things don'tl ike me doesn't mean i can't beat them into liking me :-) 13:00:57 ams: if not like then at least respect 13:01:25 antonv: oh, i don't think my system has any respect for me anymore... 13:02:30 (and if it did, i'd be quite disapointed ..) 13:02:59 in its lack of discernment 13:06:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07:03 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 13:09:39 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.26] has joined #lisp 13:09:42 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping 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joined #lisp 13:35:15 m7w_ [~chatzilla@178.172.214.42] has joined #lisp 13:35:16 urandom__ [~user@p548A3B05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:41 are there lisps that lack global variables 13:35:51 logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:36:06 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:09 -!- m7w_ is now known as m7w 13:36:15 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:05 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 13:38:04 -!- jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:39:06 jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 -!- kanru [~kanru@187.74.240.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:41:24 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.26] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:45:10 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru` 13:45:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:46:19 <|3b|> n00b6502: arguably most CLs lack 'global' variables, they have 'special' variables which have dynamic scope rather than global, and they have a value slot on symbols which can be use as a sort of 'global' variable 13:47:55 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:51:23 what i'm talking about is that when i say (defun blah() (setq something ...) .... ) i get 'something' in global scope which i wasn't expecting till i was alerted to it here :) 13:51:35 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 13:53:15 You learned the right way to get local variables shortly after that, right? 13:53:21 of course i can avoid using them .. my C/C++ head tells me globals reduce modularity, and its nice to pass things with "const *" to show what is read-only or modifyable 13:53:43 (let .... ) yes :) 13:54:02 <|3b|> right, you get 'something 13:54:17 <|3b|> 'something', since it is undefined what SETF does to undefined variables 13:54:33 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:54:55 but you can sstill do (let something .....(setf something...)..) to modify locals, i think 13:55:15 <|3b|> LET doesn't modify anything, it creates bindings 13:55:39 yes i mean the 'setf' modifies after let biding 13:56:03 <|3b|> right, SETF modifies things, including variable bindings 13:56:22 i suppose a more pure functional style simply avoids setf ... 13:57:22 n00b6502: what implementation are you using? Usualy, the code you posted triggers an error. 13:57:42 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:58:00 clisp from ubuntu linux repositories; i think i actually tried that out 13:58:05 let me try again 13:58:10 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:58:39 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:47 -!- logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:46 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:58 yes it works here; 14:01:37 -!- Forty-Two is now known as Forty-3 14:01:42 (defun foo (a) (let ((x (+ a 1))) (print x)(setf x (+ x 1)) (print x))) (foo 1) ===> "2" "3" "3" 14:03:04 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:06 hm, forgot that setq had that particular semantics. 14:03:55 various implementations will warn when setting a dynamic variable via setf before defparameter/defvar though 14:04:17 or when functions access variables outside their scope which aren't known 14:04:33 <|3b|> setting a dynamic variable without defparameter/defvar is OK 14:05:12 mario2 [~mario2@101.68.89.3] has joined #lisp 14:05:32 c/c++ head is used to having features one is better off avoiding... 14:05:38 yes, the implementation can warn but should accept it 14:05:42 <|3b|> but note that for something to be a 'dynamic variable' there needs to be a declaration in effect describing it as such 14:05:49 although at least things needing to be declared catches more at compile time 14:06:09 n00b6502: it's best to let go of the C ;) 14:06:10 so there's other types of let ? 14:06:50 i run this code in closure cl, (defun test-sort () (let ((original '(8 9 5 7 2 0))) (sort original #'<) (print original))), the output is error (8 9), while clasp is ok (0 2 5 7 8 9), is this a bug of clozure cl? 14:07:08 <|3b|> mario2: it is a bug in that code 14:07:16 j_king: C/C++ is too big a part of my head, never forgetting it 14:07:29 <|3b|> mario2: SORT is destructive, and can change the list passed as a parameter arbitrarily 14:07:51 is it scheme that marks impure vs pure functions 14:08:07 n00b6502: I'm a polyglot too, but there isn't much to relate between C and CL 14:08:19 <|3b|> mario2: so always use the return value from SORT, and note that modifying a literal list like '(9 8 5 7 2 0) is non-conformant as well 14:08:20 there is a convention in scheme to use ! as a prefix for destructive functions, but other than that no. 14:08:38 mario2: clasp? 14:08:45 i'm aware they're hugely different. i have used scripting lanaguges a little which are supposedly closer to lisp than c 14:08:48 sorry, clisp 14:08:50 kinda like using *foo* for global variables, +foo+ for constants, ... etc in CL 14:09:00 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:09:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:09:35 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:11:18 that is to say i must save a copy of the output for sort? 14:11:21 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:28 so my advice is to forget what you know about C for a while and just learn CL 14:11:29 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:11:56 <|3b|> you should save the output from sort, no need to copy it 14:11:59 I also suggest completely reading a lisp book 14:12:11