00:00:33 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:05 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:04:43 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:52 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has joined #lisp 00:08:52 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 00:13:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:13:41 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:17:48 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:18:08 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 00:19:07 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:19:53 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:16 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has left #lisp 00:32:48 -!- Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:33:20 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:42 -!- BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:00 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:39:31 -!- harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:44:11 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:45:53 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:45:58 -!- insomniaSalt [~user@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:08 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:44 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:53:27 -!- helmetk [~textual@166.Red-79-144-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: [Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/]] 00:53:54 i'm using cl-ppcre to replace some text. if i create input-file and output-file streams using with-open-file, what's a good, simple way to rig up the regex replace? cl-ppcre appears to prefer strings to streams, and i'm having trouble seeing the simplest way to pipe these streams through it... 00:55:06 robot-beethoven: are you working line per line? 00:55:08 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:08 line by line as well. Too much French these days. 00:56:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:59 pkhuong: each match in the input-file will be contained within 1 line, though the replacement text might contain multiple lines 00:57:38 robot-beethoven: Is it too much text? Just read all of it. 00:58:16 robot-beethoven: you can (loop for line = (read-line input nil) while line do ...). 00:58:42 or see if something like clawk suits your needs. 00:59:23 jeti [~user@p548EA864.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:16 -!- jeti [~user@p548EA864.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:41 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:23 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:07:25 Xach: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2006-December/001154.html I found where the mailing list moved to. 01:08:03 lcc_ [~lcc@71-222-132-61.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 -!- lcc_ [~lcc@71-222-132-61.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:10:33 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:10:38 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:13 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:17:12 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:18:42 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-65.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:43 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-65.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:18:43 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:19:24 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 01:27:33 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 01:28:52 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:34:03 So apparently you shouldn't use CFFI's `define-foreign-type' as a glorified defclass. That's cool, although I will have to type more. 01:36:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:55 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:04 Maybe I should finally write some macro. 01:41:28 lemonodor [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has joined #lisp 01:41:30 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:42:14 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:44:46 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:49:11 -!- jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-65-220-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:53:37 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:58:01 didi: you should, just make sure that the macro arguments are only evaluated once, from left to right (this can be ensured using gensyms and a let as its prologue) 02:03:28 -!- Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:06:17 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:23 phadthai: Yeah, I'll give it a shot. Thanks. 02:10:25 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10:31 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:17 oh and I forgot to mention it, but macro functions should also be functional, avoiding a few destructive functions, they'll be called at compilation time anyway, so the performance of their expansion is less critical than that of the resulting code 02:12:38 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:43 The notion of compilation time and execution time are not entirely clear to me yet. 02:14:43 the chapter of the hyperspec "3. Evaluation and Compilation" details it 02:14:53 phadthai: Thanks, I'll read it. 02:15:16 [SLB] [~slabua@host247-111-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:15:16 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host247-111-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 02:15:17 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 02:15:55 possibly especially 3.2.2 in the case of macros 02:16:59 you use clisp, right? I think that uses an evaluator by default, so you can try (defmacro foo () (print "macroexpanding") nil), (defun bar () (foo)), (bar) => should print "macroexpanding", (compile 'bar) => should print "macroexpanding", (foo) => shouldn't print 02:17:15 Bike: I'm actually using SBCL now. 02:17:25 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has joined #lisp 02:18:15 oh, then you can do (setf sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :interpret) and then switch it to :compile when you're done. 02:18:25 Nice. 02:18:52 sbcl's interpreter isn't very good I don't think, though, don't use it for long 02:19:11 Anyway, hopefully that gives you an idea about macroexpand-time. 02:19:20 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 02:19:21 Thank you. 02:20:01 you'll also need to use macroexpand-1 to see what your macro expands to exactly 02:20:54 i quickloaded drakma yet (http-request) seems to be undefined.. have i skipped a step? 02:20:57 Bike: You meant (bar) => shouldn't print, right? After compiling it. 02:21:10 but if you happen to need macroexpand-1 in macros themselves, or are needing more than one quote escaping level, consider instead making simpler functions, which can then be called by your macro 02:21:16 didi: yes, sorry 02:21:26 nydel: (drakma:http-request ...)? 02:21:57 Bike: thank you 02:22:23 phadthai: Got it. 02:22:55 Bike: So (bar) now has forever a `nil' inside it, right? 02:23:24 didi: When it's compiled, yeah. You might try disassembling it 02:24:06 Uh, I accidentally disassembled 'foo. It's big. 02:26:59 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:20 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-254.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:37 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 02:35:00 Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-198-116.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:38:39 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:41:25 Bike: thanks 02:50:01 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:50:38 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:56 Bike: do you know if you can pass php variables by post using drakma:http-request? i'm reading the documentation as that you can, but i'm having errors when i use :method :post :parameters '(("q" "hello")) 02:53:02 How do I append something to a symbol? The user pass me `foo' and I want to append `-bar' to it so `foo => foo-bar'. 02:53:34 didi: (concatenate 'string (symbol-name user-thing) "bar")? 02:53:46 Bike: careful with case. 02:53:51 Bike: Is it? I don't know. 02:54:14 alexandria:symbolicate is probably best. 02:54:19 (concatenate 'string (symbol-name user-thing) (symbol-name '#:bar)) is what I'd usually do, but I don't know what didi is doing and didn't want to be more confusing. 02:54:23 Bike: Ah, but the result should also be a symbol. 02:54:31 oh, go for symbolicate then. 02:54:45 OK. 02:55:13 nydel: '(("q" . "hello")) instead? 02:55:23 offtopic - i never knew the word "concatenate" & i now use it in everyday conversation a few times a week 02:55:32 Bike: thanks i will try that 02:57:01 Bike: winner! wow thank you. this is because it needed an alist, not a list, is that correct? 02:57:15 seems that way. I haven't used drakma in a while. 02:57:38 the best source is drakma's docs, of course 02:58:28 Bike: i'm trying /hard/ to use documentation & avoid asking stuff, 'promise. i appreciate the help verily. 02:58:58 «parameters is an alist of name/value pairs (the car and the cdr each being a string)» yeah, there you go 02:59:48 is it just me, or does this (passing variables by post) kinda compromise the security of the post method? 03:00:39 security? 03:01:33 Xach, when is the last time you used PROGV? 03:01:39 Xach: that is, php forms that use GET enable the user to call pages using a uri, i thought the whole point of POST was so that users couldn't do that 03:01:56 & i might as well be doing that 03:02:07 PHP? 03:02:16 Quadrescence: hmm, I don't think I've ever used it for real. 03:02:57 nydel: post and get are part of http, they're not php-specific. 03:02:57 nydel: no. anything the browser can legitimately do, a malicious user can as well. You might be thinking of using POST requests to prevent users from thinking the back button works. 03:03:16 -!- benny [~user@i577A16A3.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:31 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.158.251.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04:40 oh - if a posted variable was meant to be secure, i would still have to guess the names of the posted variables anyway since i can't see the php source. 03:04:54 (unless you search google for "site:*.*/*.php~" which is fun) 03:05:09 -!- Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:07:13 nydel: no one uses register globals seriously. HTTP is just bytes that are copied around; the logic is all application specific. 03:09:33 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.158.251.196] has joined #lisp 03:09:40 pkhuong: thanks, that gives me a lot of material to look up & read. most of what you say does. may i ask what you do, or whatever? i'm curious because you seem to have lots of information. 03:10:15 benny [~user@i577A7C20.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:10:21 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:01 I'm a phd student in operations research (math and computer science applied to planning or decision problems). 03:13:13 pkhuong: Oh, I didn't realize that! My wife recently got her PhD in OR  what's your research on? 03:13:42 that must be wonderful. i wonder if you will continue into research after your phd, or else, do you know? 03:13:53 pkhuong: Also, do you find that most people in your department lack CS knowledge? It seems so helpful in the field, yet so rare. 03:14:04 sellout42: i want a wife with a phd in or :) 03:15:09 (quite a step up from a girlfriend with an std) 03:15:25 sellout42: network design. We're working on uncapacitated two-tier distribution networks. And yes, I find OR people tend to be pretty bad at coding, and only slightly better in the CS stuff we learn in school. 03:15:27 nydel: "register-globals" was the old php default and that was indeed considered very insecure, as that "feature" allowed GET/POST/COOKIE variables to become and override normal php variables. In a similar way, a Lisp HTTPd should ideally file alists, plists or hash tables, but not override local variables with the content of HTTP requests 03:15:27 Yikes! 03:16:38 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.129.57] has joined #lisp 03:16:44 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483A3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:20 sellout42: conversely, I find CS people tend to lack general OR knowlege, leaving them with too many unknown unknowns... At least ORists tend to realise their weakness and sometimes even look for help in other labs. 03:18:10 That is definitely true. Or quickly leap to stuff like genetic algos, etc. 03:18:19 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A994.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:18:23 I mean, CS people do. 03:19:01 nydel: that said, a let-like macro can be useful to bind those variables, but at least then the coder of the template or dynamic script knows what HTTP variable he's assigning to what Lisp variable 03:19:23 sellout42: what was (is?) your wife working on? (: 03:19:48 Viaken [~david@projecthq.biz] has joined #lisp 03:20:37 pkhuong: Her research was in terminal-area aircraft routing during storms. Now she's working for a small OR software & consulting company here in Boulder. 03:21:27 phadthai: something like multiple-value-bind? 03:21:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.158.251.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:49 It's like half OR PhDs and half coders, and never the twain shall meet. But that's pretty much why they hired her. She bridges the gap. 03:22:15 (her undergrad is in CS (and math), and she worked at Amazon (where we met).) 03:22:22 nydel: sure, or (http-let ((var :get foo &optional default)) ... 03:22:44 (only an example) 03:23:00 sellout42: nice! the airplane scheduling people always have interesting war stories ;) and her academic background is eerily similar to mine. 03:23:06 phadthai: i see, helpful, thank you 03:24:58 pkhuong: One of the funny things was not being able to bring any computers into the control towers  they basically made an index card filing system with a lookup table so they could quickly find what they should do in any situation. 03:25:42 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:29:41 hmm ideally they should have had computers but which were specialized and inspected, restricted to the needed tasks, but I'm not surprised about now allowing new computers in... but I guess that's my programmer opinion, some people could consider computers too flaky and vulnerable to "dirty bombs" etc 03:29:55 s/now/not/ 03:30:24 yet they're now everywhere even on the planes themselves 03:31:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:57 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:32:59 on the other hand, some submarines ran windows and suffered the consequences heh 03:33:14 err I think they were crusers actually 03:33:28 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:27 phadthai: I think the lack of computers was mostly a Union issue (this was Boston, after all). It had to be presented as helping the controllers make better decisions, not replacing controllers with automated processes. 03:34:31 phadthai: they just burn people out in a handful of years instead. I hear all the major airlines still run all their operations off one or two vintage workstations... maybe one of them's a lisp machine, still getting power cycles daily instead of running major GCs ;) 03:35:01 sellout42: hmm possibly 03:35:25 they still have operators in the otherwise all automated montreal metro system 03:36:15 phadthai: too many jumpers. 03:36:19 :) 03:37:21 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-198-116.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:41:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-162.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:46:02 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.158.251.196] has joined #lisp 03:51:16 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:55:08 mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:18 organixpear [~organixpe@96-42-14-128.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:21 I'm having an issue described pretty well here: http://pastebin.ca/2198624. But to summarize here, I have a method that belongs to a class which implements a function that writes some stream to a file. I would prefer the stream be written as it is called, but, it writes only when the interpreter exits. 04:06:02 You should move that defun into an flet... and, try (force-output stream)? 04:06:30 Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:39 good idea, I read something about (force-output) a bit ago but must have looked it over. 04:07:30 -!- lemonodor [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:07:36 organixpear: common lisp is almost nothing like scheme. That nested defun probably doesn't do what you think it does. What implementation are you using? Closing the stream ought to flush... 04:08:11 embeddable common lisp 04:08:58 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:11:22 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-22-15-5.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 04:15:30 nested defun... i remember missing nested functions in C, what does it do ? 04:16:30 n00b6502: it defines a new global function each time the outer function is called. 04:16:36 ouch 04:16:59 or rather perhaps its ok because you can use lambda for local functions 04:17:10 flet or labels would be better. 04:17:15 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:17:32 i'm sure "local functions" are one of those things that keep #defines used in C++ 04:17:44 as in "local functions" are one of the things you'd need to eliminate #defines 04:18:30 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-22.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:51 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-552-1-70-109.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:29:09 -!- jao` [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:29:25 here's a question for dynamic typing enthusiats - in some scripting languages you can dynamically add record members, can lisps's object systems do that 04:30:03 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:30 i think it helps with the ability to write small peices of functionality with less context 04:30:58 As in, alter a struct definition to have more members? Yes. 04:31:07 Bike: well, not structs. 04:31:10 hmm alists and plists are probably used when very variable input/output structure is needed, too 04:31:38 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:31:49 pkhuong: trying to adapt this to C-ish terminology. 04:32:43 i have looked at scripting languages; they dont call them structs. tables ? hasmaps? objects ? 04:32:58 adhoc sometihngs 04:32:59 also, a js object is a hash table, and hash tables can be used, and as necessary abstracted upon, there are alternative object systems for lisp which are prototype-based for instance 04:33:36 n00b6502: You can do it with CLOS, is what I mean. 04:33:39 yet the standard has no such prototype-based objects 04:34:11 where to defclass and defstrut differ 04:34:33 where do defclass and defstrut differ (sorry, typo) 04:34:42 they're very different mechanisms. relevant to this is that defstruct doesn't have redefinition semantics or the MOP. 04:35:35 i'm going to guess defstruct is like "plain-old-data" c-structs, whereas def-class has run-time-type-information ? like a vtable in c++ or objective-c objects ? 04:36:00 yes structures have much more limitations, but that can also be used by compilers to increase performance... I guess that you could liken lisp structures to C structures or java static classes 04:36:16 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:29 n00b6502: it's complicated, and you're probably not going to be able to draw simple analogies like that. check the clhs? 04:37:06 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:37:11 when clos has dynamic dispatch of generic functions, classes that can be modified etc 04:37:41 and the meta object system although not part of the standard, most implementations support it 04:37:42 i've read about multiple dispatch, that looks awesome; 04:37:47 s/system/protocol/ 04:38:21 multiple dispatch going hand in hand with n-ary world 04:38:24 perhaps 04:38:28 which adds deeper reflection and gives user code access to the clos implementation itself 04:38:32 as ooposed to object.method 04:38:58 how much of clos is macros and how much compiler 04:39:37 another question, compare and contrast: CLOS, c++ vtables, objC messages 04:39:45 depends on the implementation. PCL originally ran on top of an object-less CL, and I think it didn't have compiler support? 04:40:09 And this is the same for all of lisp! 04:40:11 but real implementations generally hook in, I think. more efficient. 04:40:16 perhaps its something that started as macros and eventually got compiler support and some macros were absorbed 04:40:25 Bike: it coped with minimal support, realistically. 04:40:31 You don't need to guess when you could just read about it. 04:40:37 No specific subset of CL needs to be hardwired in the compiler, each implementation can choose whatever it wants. 04:40:47 pkhuong: Sorry? 04:40:54 Bike: there's that other definition of "portable": can be ported ;) 04:41:28 'portable' heh. (ifdef .. ) ? :) 04:41:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-22.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:41:44 n00b6502: what's the topic here? 04:43:01 n00b6502: so, you can't type /topic RET and do a simple copy-and-paste. Interesting. That's what years of C++ makes you? 04:46:57 Sooo... Here is my first serious macro . Could someone take a look at it and critique? It's not suppose to be much flexible, though. The incentive here is to avoid typing the `define-foreign-type' every time I create a new CLOS class. 04:47:01 I think that his questions were lisp related, but highly comparative to other languages, i.e. ad-hoc hash-table based scripting language objects vs lisp structs and clos 04:47:31 but admitedly the information is available for him to do his research 04:47:40 If you typed /topic RET, you'd get: Topic for #lisp: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language 04:47:55 ah, good point, about programmable :) 04:48:16 as in, "can you do you", "yes you can" ? 04:48:27 as in, "can you do this", "yes you can" ? 04:49:01 macros can implement anything perhaps 04:49:04 didi: define-foreign-type wraps defclass, what problem did you have with it? 04:49:29 n00b6502: yes. They're functions just like any other lisp function. 04:50:01 more concrete question - FFI - does defstruct create something that can be passed to & from C 04:50:08 No. 04:50:09 Bike: Sometimes I want to initiate stuff using the slots but CFFI system use `define-foreign-type' objects to do other things. 04:50:28 n00b6502: in fact, no lisp object can be processed by C. 04:50:32 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:50:44 can a C object be wrapped to provide a 'view' in lisp 04:50:47 n00b6502: certainly not portably; probably not on your implementation either. 04:50:49 n00b6502: just like no C++ object can be processed by C. 04:51:05 didi: Okay. Why are you only allowed one superclass? 04:51:09 n00b6502: accessors in lisp always look like function calls. You can write your own functions. 04:51:15 That said, libecl provides C operators to deal with lisp objects from C programs. 04:51:48 didi: in the define-foreign-type form, I mean. 04:52:17 Bike: Good question. It's a limitation that I'm willing to take because: 1. I only have one superclass in my system per class 2. I didn't think about it. 04:52:42 Bike: One sec. 04:53:16 If you're trying to integrate a foreign object system, AFAIK the best way to do it is to write a CLOS metaclass. 04:53:29 Bike: http://paste.kde.org/540464/ 04:54:19 pjb: That sounds way over my capabilities. 04:54:21 didi: unless I misread, it's possible that name is evaluated twice here, which could be fixed using an initial let (possibly with a gensym to use a non-clashing symbol), i.e. (let ((s-name (gensym)) ... `(let ((,s-name name)) ... then you may use ,s-name multiple times 04:54:54 didi: you can read AMOP, Kleene's book, and the sources of various examples in CL implementations. Eg. the Objective-C bridge in ccl. 04:55:19 phadthai: name is used as a symbol, it's not evaluated at all 04:55:41 hmm I might have misread then 04:56:16 didi: sorry, why can't curl-easy-init be called during initialization? 04:56:25 Bike: Because it allocates memory. 04:57:59 didi: I'm not familiar with the system you're using, but it seems like your problem is just that curl-easy-init is called every time a foo is initialized, is that right? 04:58:08 Bike: Yes. 04:58:09 -!- aslan69 [~Dovahkiin@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 04:58:33 didi: that's defclass semantics, not anything to do with define-foreign-type. 04:58:37 Bike: Or every function that have the new type to translate. 04:58:37 04:59:15 e.g., (defclass foo () ((bar :initform (print "asdf")))) (make-instance 'foo) (make-instance 'foo) 04:59:20 Bike: Yes. 04:59:32 Bike: But (curl-easy-init) does foreign stuff. 04:59:44 Bike: `malloc' and those nasty things. 05:00:13 didi: What I mean is, I don't think this is going to fix your problem? Every time you initialize an instance of your foo you're going to get a new curl init result. 05:00:47 Bike: Not in my macro, as the new type does not have any (curl-easy-init) on it. 05:01:00 didi: yes, I mean your new class. 05:01:06 Bike: Of course, the objects that I instantiate will. 05:01:11 Sure, sure. 05:01:26 Oh, that's intended. I just went and made you explain your entire problem to me, sorry. 05:01:49 Nah. I apologize for not explaining it well enough. 05:01:54 And IIRC, clisp provides C operators to access lisp objects too, to write clisp modules. 05:02:06 I thought you might have only wanted easy-init to run once, ever. 05:02:26 No. I want to be the only one leaking memory. 05:04:02 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-552-1-70-109.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:04:26 hm, then isn't the problem confusing types and objects? easy-handle is a type, your handle is an instance of that type, not a subtype. 05:05:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 05:05:32 I think your macro is fine for its intention, though. 05:08:37 Bike: Yeah, I'm not entirely happy with my approach for this. I liked the previous one much better, but doing this way I only need to tell one time how to translate a Lisp object to foreign by making all different classes have a common, master, parent. 05:08:41 momo-reina [~user@122.179.102.115] has joined #lisp 05:08:48 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-552-1-70-45.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:08:57 Bike: Oh, nice. 05:09:14 I mean it's pretty simple, if you're not sure macroexpanding it should be enough 05:10:07 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:27 Bike: I did it a lot. I also tried phadthai suggestion of using `gensym' and stuff. I guess it takes some practice to know how to read even the macroexpanded thing. 05:10:37 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 05:11:09 (let ((var (gensym "var"))) `(,var)) => (#:|var3314|) 05:11:13 not too hard to read. 05:11:29 Hehe, you're not a newbie. 05:11:40 didi: er, it shouldn't be hard to read... it's just four lines 05:12:04 The symbols don't make much sense at first. 05:12:05 speaking of macros... i'm having some problems understanding why lisp is printing some stuff in capital form : `(cons ',(car x) ,(cdr x))) 05:12:22 the first part of the cons cell (car x) is printed out in all caps... 05:12:38 momo-reina: that's because it's reading them in upper case! 05:12:50 clhs readtable-case 05:12:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 05:12:59 clhs *print-case* 05:12:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cas.htm 05:13:12 but you can ask it to downcase stuff when printing. 05:13:31 pjb: will look at the clhs 05:15:55 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:33 pjb: is that the default behaviour? i was going through some of the code in land of lisp and there was no mention of changing the readtable-variable... 05:18:57 also, wouldn't that affect every single command after that? 05:20:10 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.63.222] has joined #lisp 05:20:14 pjb: nevermind, i found a fault in the code... :) 05:29:18 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:30 tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.254] has joined #lisp 05:30:55 Yay, go macro! Much less typing. 05:31:18 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has joined #lisp 05:41:40 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-552-1-70-45.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:46:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:47:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:53:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:55:18 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:55:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:55:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:05:38 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:07:53 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-oqlxalvomuglfmyu] has joined #lisp 06:07:54 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-oqlxalvomuglfmyu] has quit [Changing host] 06:07:54 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:10:57 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-uvttzdugocmfheqq] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:14:32 asvil [~asvil@178.120.154.252] has joined #lisp 06:17:24 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:18 Hi all. Has quicklisp got statistics of projects usage? I mean, for example, how many people downloaded clx, restas, etc. 06:20:42 asvil: This is the only one I could find It's from November, 2011. 06:22:55 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 06:23:26 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:30 didi: thx. it's snapshot, what are Xach thinking about online stats? 06:26:40 asvil: That's a good question. I don't know. 06:27:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:29:39 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:30:12 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:31:19 jewel [~jewel@196-210-160-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:32:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:36:23 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:36:52 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:37:24 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 06:38:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:40:52 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.158.251.196] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:41:19 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:43:07 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 damg [~dima2001@p5B065760.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:22 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:45:22 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:22 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:45:35 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.63.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:48:22 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:50:09 -!- damg [~dima2001@p5B065760.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: damg] 06:50:20 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:53:45 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:55:07 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:56:31 Is it possible to convert a integer to a double-float? 42 => 42d0 06:56:51 gko [~user@42.71.5.253] has joined #lisp 06:56:51 Perhaps coerce might be useful? 06:57:01 Zhivago: There we go. 06:57:04 Thanks. 06:59:10 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:00:15 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:00:15 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:00:16 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:00:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:11 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:02:29 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:03:00 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:03:27 `check-type' is great. 07:04:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-160-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04:46 -!- loreints [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:04 recived [~recived@ns.unatlib.org.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:03 -!- momo-reina [~user@122.179.102.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:47 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-140-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:17 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:30 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:08:46 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:06 -!- xian_ [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:09:13 xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:48 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 07:12:58 -!- organixpear [~organixpe@96-42-14-128.dhcp.fdul.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:16:52 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 07:22:32 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:09 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.154.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:29:40 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:48 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:04 asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has joined #lisp 07:37:53 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c08f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:04 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:57 Is it possible to use `setf' with a CLOS object? 07:41:14 didi: what do you mean? 07:44:43 H4ns: For example: I have a CLOS object `foo'. It ultimately holds a number inside it, but does a lot of things internally with it. Instead of defining a method called `set-value', is it possible to defsetf something, maybe, that will do some complicate stuff? So, instead of writing (set-value value foo-obj) I can write (setf foo-obj value). 07:46:00 Does it make sense? 07:46:01 what happens when you want to actually replace foo-obj? you can just do (setf (value foo-obj) value) though. 07:46:04 didi: no. 07:46:20 didi: what bike says 07:46:57 Bike: Uh, yes, (setf (value foo-obj) value) is much better. 07:47:00 Is it possible? 07:47:24 it's done for you, even. 07:47:24 didi: that is what :accessor gives you. 07:47:50 (defclass foo () ((bar :accessor foo-bar))) (setf (foo-bar (make-instance 'foo)) whatever-you-please) 07:48:18 Hum. The thing is, the value is not in a slot. I have to call a foreign function to get it. I also have to call a foreign function to set it. 07:48:28 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 07:48:32 also (defmethod (setf foo-bar) (value (foo foo)) ...) 07:48:38 The accessor is generic, you can define your own methods. 07:48:48 *didi* likes that 07:48:55 But that sounds like you're getting to the realm of metaclasses 07:49:03 (there is no need to use :accessor if you don't need a standard slot accessor, you can just define the method) 07:49:16 or just that, yes... 07:49:21 Bike: It sounds scary. 07:49:28 Scary things are fun. 07:49:38 didi: no need for metaprogramming really. just define a setf method, done. 07:49:39 But in the meantime, you can just do (defun (setf foo-bar) ...) 07:49:48 OK. 'done 07:49:49 :^) 07:49:52 or defgeneric or defmethod or whatever. 07:51:42 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 07:54:08 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:57:15 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 07:57:27 It's impossible to not like this stuff. 07:57:46 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:58:14 didi: it is easy! you just have to start with firm preconceptions and must be unwilling to give them up :) 07:58:37 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 08:02:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:03:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:03:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:09 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:06:06 -!- cataska_ [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:08:33 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:25 H4ns: You need to have *a lot* of willpower. ;^) 08:12:24 didi: i don't, but you can see such folks here every other day 08:13:02 yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:37 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 08:18:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-92.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: die] 08:20:19 add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:21:04 If an object only accepts one value type, what is better: (defmethod foo-method ((value value-type) (foo-obj foo)) ...) or (defmethod foo-method (value (foo-obj foo)) (check-type value value-type) ...)? 08:21:49 didi: i'd tend to specializing the method. 08:22:44 H4ns: Yeah, it seems cleaner. 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09:16:48 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483A3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:48 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:16:49 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 09:16:59 recived [~recived@ns.unatlib.org.ru] has joined #lisp 09:17:22 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 09:21:28 mm... is weblocks still maintained? 09:23:25 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 09:23:38 ams: best ask the authors 09:24:09 ams: or look at https://github.com/skypher/weblocks/commits/master 09:25:42 Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:55 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:17 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:26:23 -!- Qinix [~qinix@1.202.56.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:28:21 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:44 ams: personally, i think that "continuation based web frameworks" in cl are a dead end. for one, because continuations don't come naturally in cl, for another because the problem that continuations solve, preserving state across http requests, don't exist with restful web2.0 applications, which are the future. 09:29:17 ams: that is just my opinion, but it has stopped me from considering weblocks. 09:29:49 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:30:10 so don't use continuations in weblocks. 09:30:14 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:31:13 ams: well, that is what they're advertising it for in the first place. 09:32:22 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:33:17 ams: weblocks is still being maintained form what I can see in the mailing list and from recent activity in the mailing list it looks like some improvements/changes are being considered...etc 09:34:05 the commits in the repository make me think likewise. it is certainly not as dead as other cl web frameworks, my own included :) 09:37:09 ams: you might have better results building something akin to clojurescript + webmachine/bishop 09:37:15 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-218-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 09:37:22 yeah I am guilty there as well I still need to finish the docs for my web framework...*sigh* 09:37:28 bonus points if you make it into a DSL to build web apps :) 09:38:21 antonv_ [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 09:39:49 antonv__ [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 09:39:49 -!- antonv__ [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:25 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:43:39 Harag, ams, I think restas is still maintained. 09:45:45 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:58 -!- Yuuhi```` [benni@p5483A3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:50:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:50:38 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:52 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A3E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:53:46 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@mail.avanteit.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:55:29 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:00:34 Alice4 [~Alice@cpc4-grim12-0-0-cust452.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:08 -!- Alice4 [~Alice@cpc4-grim12-0-0-cust452.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:19 Alice4 [~Alice@cpc4-grim12-0-0-cust452.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 -!- Alice4 [~Alice@cpc4-grim12-0-0-cust452.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:20 quazimodo [~quazimodo@mail.avanteit.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:03:18 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:03:37 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc4-grim12-0-0-cust452.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:28 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:08:59 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc4-grim12-0-0-cust452.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 10:11:50 -!- naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 10:11:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:18:46 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:21:22 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.199] has joined #lisp 10:25:21 mm.. 10:25:58 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 10:26:20 i guess i'll stick to weblocks; no matter if it is dead or not. 10:27:38 (not sure what people have against continuations in cl, or continuation based web frameworks... i think they make perfect sense) 10:28:24 ams: if you like them, more power to you. 10:34:00 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:38 I didn't say I liked them, I think they make sense. 10:34:38 PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.241.69] has joined #lisp 10:34:39 Demosthenex [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 10:34:44 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:35:39 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:41:31 -!- agumonkey 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REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 11:08:28 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host86-173-123-205.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:25 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:29 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-218-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:25:12 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-135.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:35 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@mail.avanteit.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:29:26 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.143.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:31:23 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:59 momo-reina [~user@122.179.111.167] has joined #lisp 11:32:40 just wondering, is anyone still using usenet? would you recommend the common lisp newsgroups, or any other newsgroups for that matter? 11:34:05 yep: comp.lang.lisp 11:34:48 but isn't that avaiable through google groups? 11:34:54 One of the few parts of usenet that's still alive in that case. Is it still as full of trolls, though? 11:35:17 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 11:36:09 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 11:37:54 anything that can't be accessed through google groups? not really in it for the warez.. 11:41:35 momo-reina: news.update.uu.se -- not sure if it is accessible outside though. 11:41:49 and google groups is not usenet. 11:42:16 ams: that might be preferable, i don't mind spending a bit for intelligent conversation 11:42:40 ams: you can access certain newsgroups though through google groups yeah? comp.lang.lisp for sure 11:43:27 i wouldn't know. some groups are only on some usenet servers. i don't use google's spy machine. 11:44:08 I use news.individual.net for my Usenet source. 11:45:06 would you say it's worth it? 11:45:11 the subscription to usenet i mean 11:45:29 Yep. 10 /year. 11:46:25 I subscribed because I wanted the fr.* groups from abroad. 11:46:35 but also all the comp.... 11:46:52 how's the activity level? high? 11:47:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:48:31 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:48:48 I found it has been lower lately. 11:51:34 -!- momo-reina [~user@122.179.111.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:34 -!- damg [~dima2001@p5B065760.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:58 https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/comp.lang.lisp 11:52:01 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:54:00 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:54:46 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:56 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:57 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:59:42 hugod [~user@70.24.177.33] has joined #lisp 12:01:06 stat_vi 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check-type may signal a clearer error than defmethod. 15:11:36 Also notice the third argument of check-type 15:12:50 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:09 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:07 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:20:56 add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:21:52 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:27:04 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:34 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 15:28:16 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:43 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:32:50 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:36:38 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 15:37:11 mmajchrzak1 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joined #lisp 16:31:20 <[6502]> Hello... is there a standard function in CL for inserting an element at a given position in a list? Are there both a destructive and non-destructive versions? 16:32:43 no 16:34:32 and if you find yourself needing to insert at an arbitrary position in a list you're probably doing it wrong 16:35:01 rplacdddddddd 16:35:16 (push x (cdr (nthcdr (- position 2) list))) 16:35:53 rather, 1, not 2 16:36:43 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:37:56 -!- sellout421 is now known as sellout 16:38:11 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:38:26 -!- Qinix [~qinix@1.202.56.184] has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:38:33 [6502]: there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq 16:39:54 <[6502]> clop: actually rplaca :-D 16:40:01 If it's a list or an adjustable array, then it's destructive, else it's not. 16:40:49 <[6502]> clop: hmmm.. no, you're right. rplacd 16:40:50 But for now, if it's a non-adjustable array with a fill-pointer, it's not destructive; in the future it will be destructive and modify the fill-pointer if possible. 16:42:47 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:43:10 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-41-16-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 16:43:44 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 -!- wuehli [~wuehlmaus@94.247.40.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:52:10 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:52:49 jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has joined #lisp 16:52:52 hi all 16:53:27 what are the important problems in computer science today? 16:53:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb new features] 16:54:04 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 16:55:13 "How to code your way around patents" 16:56:03 i would say artificial intelligence is a big one. what are some others? 16:56:24 is it really? 16:56:43 robotic weapons 16:56:48 stassats: AI defined as "anything that we haven't wrapped our head around yet" 16:57:12 let me rephrase "artificial intelligence" as "machine learning" 16:57:19 what are some others? 16:57:31 I'm taking that machine learning course on coursera. Doesn't seem that hard at all. 16:57:40 important how? for whom? 16:58:00 i'm asking the question, here :) 16:58:10 you are? 16:58:25 *sykopomp* misread 'important' as 'hard' 16:59:27 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:33 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:00:04 how about P =? NP 17:00:25 how to effectively parallelize a SAT solver 17:00:34 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 17:00:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_computer_science 17:00:44 knock yourself out 17:00:44 and i don't really see any lisp angles in that question 17:00:56 because there isn't 17:01:11 clop: no, that's actually easy. Just run a dozen solvers with different strategies and hyperparameters. 17:01:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:49 pkhuong, that's afaik the state of the art, but somehow isn't very satisfying 17:02:13 so I've decided to relearn lisp 17:02:21 quazimodo: good for you! 17:02:30 stassats: XD 17:02:40 i did some elisp, looks like c, wanna look? 17:02:54 this channel specializes in Common Lisp 17:02:59 I thought you were going to relearn lisp. 17:03:11 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:26 quazimodo: you may show elisp code in #lisp-lab 17:03:33 Hello 17:03:34 Here it's only for Common Lisp. 17:03:46 ya k 17:05:51 <[6502]> quazimodo: if by looking like C you mean you put close parenthesis on a line on their own then please note that people here can kill just for that 17:05:52 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:11 [6502]: I used to support that until I found EMACS 17:06:27 oh yeah 17:06:32 i haven't learnt that one yet 17:06:38 just use emacs's paren-matching features 17:06:42 why do you guys hate parens on their own lines? 17:06:52 it looks ugly 17:06:56 *quazimodo* isn't trying to challenge it, just curious 17:07:12 because it is distracting 17:07:15 Oh, no, it's OK--I used to do that too. It makes sense if you don't paren match 17:07:24 But paren-matching is the standard 17:09:10 -!- antonv_ [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:33 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:12:57 because it is the entirely wrong way to view lisp source code. You are editing the text representation of data structures, not text. 17:13:59 yeah, no newlines should be allowed in lisp source code. 17:14:39 ykm [~user@124.155.255.206] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:44 jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-73-183-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 17:19:11 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-41-16-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:22:04 -!- jjkola_ is now known as jjkola 17:22:09 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 17:23:42 yrk [~user@vtelinet-216-66-104-6.vermontel.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 -!- yrk [~user@vtelinet-216-66-104-6.vermontel.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:23:46 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 17:24:08 <[6502]> why (=) is an error instead of T? 17:24:35 what would you do with it? 17:25:08 <[6502]> stassats: nothing... but all elements are equal; or you can find a pair of them that are different? 17:25:35 <[6502]> stassats: (= 1) is not that useful either 17:25:42 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:25:48 it's useful for macroexpansions and whatnot 17:25:59 (= 1 ,@other-numbers) 17:25:59 <[6502]> stassats: so is (=), no? 17:26:03 no 17:26:12 <[6502]> (= ,@numbers) 17:26:18 [6502]: (+) and the others have solid math behind them, (=) doesn't make sense. 17:27:01 (+) returns the addition identity which is 0, what is the identity of =? 17:27:26 pavelpenev: = isn't a closed associative operation. 17:27:39 thats what I mean 17:27:57 where would you use the identity of =? (= x (= x y))? 17:28:53 pjb: bed time, bye 17:28:54 :D 17:30:05 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:07 [6502]: will you ask the same question about EQL? 17:30:42 <[6502]> stassats: EQ is only XY iirc, not variadic 17:31:08 that's where you come in with "why is not variadic?" 17:32:02 <[6502]> stassats: not really... even if indeed :-) ... but having a variadic function not working for empty list where the logic is perfectly symmetrical is even stranger 17:32:22 what logic? 17:32:29 <[6502]> stassats: it's like having (sort) crashing on empty list with the excuse "why would you sort an empty list?" 17:32:59 pavelpenev: it can be seen as a forall-lifted version of a binary predicate. It'd return T on the empty list, just like it does for (= 1). 17:33:38 i'm not sure how on earth (=) makes any sense at all... 17:33:56 <[6502]> stassats: e.g. (< ...) returns true iff for every pair of arguments x_i x_{i+1} x_i < x_{i+1} 17:33:57 and isn't it a bit .. boring academia this? 17:34:08 <[6502]> stassats: (<) and (< 1) and just empty truth cases 17:34:31 <[6502]> stassats: (there are no pairs therefore any proposition about all pairs is true) 17:34:33 ams: [6502] just likes to question every bit of CL 17:34:39 stassats: ah. 17:34:46 ams: whether it makes sense or not 17:34:55 better find something else to do.. lots of .. strange things in cl. 17:35:30 [6502]: would your world be ok if < mandated two or more arguments? 17:35:41 ditto for =, ... 17:35:50 ams: most notably strange are lisp programmers :) 17:36:09 clintm [~user@131.191.81.250] has joined #lisp 17:36:11 pavelpenev: i find other programmers stranger... they don't lisp!!! 17:36:23 i canth undethstath them! 17:36:39 now, it'd be interesting if (= 1 1) => 1, then you can use (= 1 (= 1 1)) 17:36:49 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:36:55 ams: that's because you're strange, strangeness is relative 17:36:56 <[6502]> ams: indeed i wrote my own lisp toy (something I usually do when trying to understand something...) and this is one of the cases in which I don't understand CL choice. Quite often however I just find that I didn't consider something and that my objection is just logically wrong 17:37:01 and (= 1 (= 1)), but (= 1 (=)) won't work 17:37:20 and = is allowed to return 1 17:37:29 stassats: well, = returns t/nil.. so (= 1 (= 1 1)) -> (= 1 t) -> nil 17:37:30 <[6502]> stassats: you can compare T and 1? 17:37:43 [6502]: please, read all my messages 17:37:46 <[6502]> ams: actually it's an error 17:37:57 ams: = doesn't return t/nil 17:38:03 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:15 stassats: here it does. 17:38:29 no clue what hyperspec says... 17:38:34 well, we're not concerned about there 17:38:35 CL:= is allowed to return 1 for (= 1 1). 17:38:36 clhs = 17:38:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 17:38:46 pjb: right, t :-) 17:38:59 see that it states "generalized-boolean" 17:39:04 which means nil/non-nil 17:39:25 non-nil == t 17:39:28 ams: (= 1 t) signals a type-error, doesn't return NIL. 17:39:36 pjb: weird... 17:39:38 ams: what do you mean by == here? 17:39:47 ams: non nil is anything that isn't nil 17:39:49 ams: completely wrong 17:40:05 stassats: not really. 17:40:22 semi-completely? 17:40:30 stassats: not even semi-completely. 17:40:33 mostly wrong 17:40:48 egregiously wrong? 17:40:55 i'm going to go and light my pipe, and enjoy my smoke. 17:42:20 there's no any hidden philosophical underpinnings behind generalized booleans, they're precisely described by the standard 17:42:31 <[6502]> the only very strange thing in my toy is that I've both macro and function version for relational operators, and the macro version is short-circuiting. This has the funny implication that (< (foo)) returns true without calling foo... 17:42:59 generalized-boolean == (or null (not null)) 17:43:01 <[6502]> but i find it logical 17:44:58 (deftype generalized-boolean () 't) 17:45:13 -!- ykm [~user@124.155.255.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:42 well, (or null (not null)) forms an exhaustive partition of all types, right 17:46:30 [6502]: well, it was long ago evident that your lisp is bizarre indeed 17:46:42 what happens to the side-effects performed by (foo)? 17:47:17 <[6502]> stassats: exactly the same that happens to side effects of (foo) in (and NIL (foo)) in common lisp 17:47:35 it's the purpose of and 17:47:45 <[6502]> stassats: they're short-circuited away 17:48:07 well, this is plainly stupid 17:48:39 <[6502]> stassats: I liked a() < b() < c() < d() was short-circuiting in python, so i decided to take this path 17:49:25 <[6502]> stassats: also if you have short circuiting it's trivial to force evaluation, the opposite is more annoying 17:49:51 kanru [~kanru@187.74.244.61] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 <[6502]> stassats: even if indeed i liked 0 <= x < n ... and that's not possible so i've to use instead (<= 0 x (1- n)) that's a bit uglier 17:51:16 it's not equivalent 17:51:32 <[6502]> no? 17:52:01 no, think about rationals or reals 17:52:38 <[6502]> oh well... obvious, but nice point 17:53:03 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:50 <[6502]> stassats: the idea is anyway is that writing (< x y z) is (and (< x y) (< y z)) but without evaluating y twice 17:54:03 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:27 [6502]: we have these nifty things called functions. 17:55:05 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:22 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.47] has joined #lisp 17:55:45 [6502]: the idea in CL is that if you want to write (< (x) (y) (z)) or (and (< (x) (y)) (< (y) (z)), you can, you have the choice. 17:55:50 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:52 <[6502]> pkhuong: yes... and I remember reading about a discussion in the CL committe for having xor being a special operator or a function... special operator for uniformity with and/or, but there's no reason because you cannot short circuiting and using a special operator means you cannot funcall it 17:56:12 -!- recived [~recived@ns.unatlib.org.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:56:24 and there's no much point in boolean XOR 17:56:24 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:56:28 recived [~recived@ns.unatlib.org.ru] has joined #lisp 17:58:08 <[6502]> dinner time for me... l8r 17:58:13 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:58:32 shouldn't it be l3r? 17:58:50 8 = eight = ate 17:59:29 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:00:02 what are some skills or "chunks" of knowledge that every computer scientist should have? 18:00:21 Welcome to #lisp University. 18:00:23 being able to find a suitable irc-channel to ask question 18:00:26 s 18:00:40 http://coursera.org http://ocw.mit.edu 18:01:21 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:01:45 jfe: category theory. can't get funding otherwise. 18:04:04 -!- kanru [~kanru@187.74.244.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:05:06 pavelpenev: I thought you needed to proof global warming to get funding 18:05:16 pkhuong, nice blog post :) 18:06:01 (incf *) 18:06:05 Guthur: thats another X science, the question was about x = Comupter 18:06:08 -!- jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:27 pkhuong seems to often produce really meaty blog posts 18:06:39 saucy 18:07:09 stassats: hehe indeed 18:07:19 I like a little hot sauce with my meat 18:07:22 Quadresce: thanks 18:07:44 Guthur: they're a slightly useful way to procrastinate. 18:08:31 pkhuong: indeed, I was just thinking today how would like to procrastinate in such meaningful ways 18:09:19 -!- clintm [~user@131.191.81.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:52 I was musing to myself about what encourages such, whether it was working in academia or wholly down to the individual 18:10:08 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:10:11 pkhuong: My assumption that you work in academia is correct? 18:10:23 Guthur: back when I was attempting to blog, it was mostly hubris. 18:10:53 Guthur: I don't work, but right. 18:11:32 it also helps to understand things when you lay them out nicely 18:12:37 -!- PhoSor [~pho_nzp@213.87.240.191] has quit [Quit: PhoSor] 18:13:25 stassats: that as well... I can be really bad at explaining things, so it's good practice for more complex topics. 18:14:46 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:57 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 18:17:58 kanru [~kanru@187.74.250.117] has joined #lisp 18:23:48 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:24:10 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 18:25:41 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 18:28:29 megamind [~Nevermind@123.16.105.115] has joined #lisp 18:28:35 aslan69 [~aslan69@67.51.189.130] has joined #lisp 18:33:55 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@67.51.189.130] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 18:34:07 steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:07 HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6ec20.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 18:39:07 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:06 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:12 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:41:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:42:07 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6ec20.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:58 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 18:46:11 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:25 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:24 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:10 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Changing host] 18:52:11 stokachu [~stokachu@canonical/stokachu] has joined #lisp 18:53:53 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:03 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:54:52 fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has joined #lisp 18:56:22 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:29 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-178-002-095-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:36 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:22 -!- aloysius21 [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-190-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:36 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:58 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-232-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:56 is there a way to wrap up some forms so that *every* non-local exit, whether it's due to an error or some other throw, is always caught and dealt with? 19:13:17 <|3b|> clhs unwind-protect 19:13:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm 19:14:04 <|3b|> not sure if that is what you mean though, doesn't prevent NLX, just allows you to do something when one happens 19:14:15 so unwind-protect lets me make sure some cleanup things happen 19:14:35 *|3b|* doesn't remember if NLX from unwind-protect cleanup is reasonable or not 19:14:38 but is there something like unwind-protect that can stop all signals from going past it? 19:15:44 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:16:10 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:49 <|3b|> docs for unwind-protect imply non-local exit from the cleanup is valid, so you could try that 19:17:23 clop: there is not. Think cat on power cable, or even just kill -9 19:17:27 aha, so something like a return-from inside the unwind-protect... 19:18:15 *|3b|* isn't completely sure it is a good idea though 19:18:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18:29 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 19:18:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:20:01 optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 is there a nice way of bundling up Quicklisp with my code? 19:21:04 Does anyone here do computational linguistics in CL? 19:21:09 tar zcf bundle.tar.gz quicklisp/ src/your-code 19:23:32 pjb: that assumes I have quicklisp installed on my local system? 19:23:43 pjb: and that I have all the packages I need already downloaded? 19:23:55 How do you hope bundling up something you don't have? 19:24:58 wuehli [~wuehlmaus@freeshell.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:03 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:25:07 clop: handler-bind is for signals 19:26:38 I thought I asked a simple question. :-/ 19:27:22 Too bad it seems we can't count on a common language. 19:27:30 Let's try: what do you mean by "bundling up" ? 19:29:02 Still no luck :-( 19:31:15 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:31:16 optikalmouse probably means how to programmatically install quicklisp 19:32:20 i.e. a project which installs quicklisp automatically, when deployed to user machine or server 19:34:01 is it just me or does quicklisp not like me? http://sprunge.us/VUgb 19:35:26 antonv: exactly, thank you 19:35:44 reactormonk: works for me 19:35:53 optikalmouse: you can commit the file quicklisp.lisp to yoru code 19:36:35 -!- megamind [~Nevermind@123.16.105.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:36:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:00 antonv: huh 19:37:46 antonv: quicklisp.lisp and then I'll need a shell script to run through the (ql:install)? 19:38:29 antonv: the alternative would be not to install quicklisp but to bundle the module I need with my code? 19:38:40 then do http://paste.lisp.org/display/131262 19:39:14 this code ensures quicklisp is installed in the directory "my-quicklisp/" 19:40:06 if quicklisp is already installed, it just makes quickispa available 19:40:16 so that your application can do (ql:quickload "anything") 19:40:17 -!- Forty-Two is now known as Forty-Bot 19:40:31 reactormonk: did it work before? 19:40:44 stassats: restaring clisp did help 19:40:55 ok then 19:41:01 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:41:43 megamind [~Nevermind@123.16.105.115] has joined #lisp 19:42:07 antonv: I only need to have mycode.lisp and the fare-csv package installed, no other lisp code will be running on the machine. I'm trying to make it as self-contained as possible 19:43:19 optikalmouse: in the sulition I propose you will also have quicklisp.lisp. Your application will (ql:quickload "fare-csv"). No other code will be installed 19:43:29 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.255.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:44:04 otherwize you can commit fare-csv to your code 19:44:49 installig quicklisp so that you can use one library seems like a bit much. 19:45:12 -!- maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:20 Bike: I personally prefere this way - install quicklisp and then load whatever you want (one library or more) 19:45:24 you could also load fare-csv and then save image (or self-contained executable) 19:47:19 maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 19:47:39 maxm-- [~user@openchat.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:08 -!- maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:20 lemonodor [4ca95879@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.169.88.121] has joined #lisp 19:49:34 kennyd: I'm not sure I can do that. I'm running win7 and ubuntu, the target machine is mac os x. 19:49:51 I'm using clisp so the code is portable, but I dont think the image is 19:50:19 when deploying an application, it also may be reasonable to install particular version of quicklisp, which was used during development and testing and is know to work with your app 19:50:44 to do so you may add (ql-dist:install-dist "http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/2012-08-11/distinfo.txt" :replace t) 19:53:44 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 19:54:35 -!- lemonodor [4ca95879@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.169.88.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:23 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:33 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:59:10 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:09 -!- kanru [~kanru@187.74.250.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:29 -!- megamind [~Nevermind@123.16.105.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:30 optikalmouse: how will you download, install and run the program that will download, install and run quicklisp? 20:03:34 *pjb* just wondering. 20:04:10 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-63-36.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:12 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:16 pjb: on mac os x I'm using brew; brew install clisp or whatever the command is and then I have instructions on which commands to run in the terminal to get it going. that's why I'm going to just include fare-csv with my code rather than rely on quicklisp and dealing with THAT installation. 20:10:58 Well, when we get lisp programs, we use quicklisp instead of brew. 20:11:17 You could just put your program in some repository, and ask Xach to include it in quicklisp. 20:11:34 So instead of typing brew your-program, you'd type (ql:quicklisp :your-program) 20:11:45 pjb: I still need brew to install clisp. 20:11:45 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:12:18 So what? You needed some DVD to install MacOSX! 20:12:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:14:21 -!- fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:22:13 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:23:43 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 20:27:26 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c08f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:27:50 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 20:27:53 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:28 steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:20 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:30:39 pjb, well, except OS X is no longer distributed via optical media. :O 20:31:25 kanru [~kanru@189-69-139-121.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0rt.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:35:49 What's the best way to change indentation of macros from slime? Basically, I have a new macro that i'd like to indent the same as destructuring-bind does. . . . 20:36:04 M-x slime-update-indentation 20:36:08 but it almost never works for me. 20:36:17 (actually, I've never seen it work for me). 20:36:32 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 20:40:18 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:40:37 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:15 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:37 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-178-002-095-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:46:59 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-178-002-095-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:01 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:03 superflit [~superflit@67-40-129-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:33 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-139-121.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51:29 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-178-002-095-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:40 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:04 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 20:54:40 billstclair [~billstcla@68.237.143.182] has joined #lisp 20:54:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@68.237.143.182] has quit [Changing host] 20:54:41 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:55:18 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:58:05 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 21:06:31 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:09:46 Modius how does it indent? 21:14:46 if it takes the same argument as destructuring-bind (specifcally &body instead of &rest as the last argument) it should be indented the same 21:14:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 21:15:05 xpololz [~xpololz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 21:15:10 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:53 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:21:54 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-76-26-112-202.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 21:22:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:18 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-197-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:40 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:28:12 lemonodor [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has joined #lisp 21:28:36 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-63-36.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:36:55 -!- maxm-- [~user@openchat.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:12 maxm-- [~user@openchat.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:50 -!- 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[Quit: Lost terminal] 22:02:42 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 22:03:38 -!- trigen_ [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:3c65:34a5:2bd6:7949] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:01 trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:3c65:34a5:2bd6:7949] has joined #lisp 22:06:33 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:24 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:10:12 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:12:59 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:13:22 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:16:08 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.248] has joined #lisp 22:20:23 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host86-173-123-205.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:22:22 -!- [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:23:50 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 22:24:18 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:24:19 ice [~ice@222.130.141.31] has joined #lisp 22:27:54 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:28:45 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host86-173-123-205.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:46 these macros are fun 22:30:43 it does appear one can get further here trying to bend the language to ones will 22:30:59 as long as one has good will 22:31:05 :p 22:31:12 imagine if a philosopher-king used lisp 22:31:48 emulate the bits of other languages i like :) 22:32:11 n00b6502: Go for it! 22:33:03 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:09 perhaps its like one step back (losing infix) but 2 steps forward (gaining AST manipulation) 22:33:44 why is losing infix a step back in the first place? it's ad hockery 22:35:35 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!] 22:37:56 yes, infix expressions, apart from being limited to binary, are also harder to disambiguate because of arcane precedence order rules 22:38:43 once the precedence rules are burned into your head they are helpful, but what i found with haskell at a glance is the explosion of user-defined infix operators is a bit much 22:39:24 xwolf- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 <|3b|> are you sure the rules burned into your head work for all the infix languages you might use though? 22:39:25 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:39:28 I avoid burning things into my head, not that I didn't do so with precedence rules, but I rather didn't :) 22:39:48 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:39:49 thats the thing, they're definitely burned into my head for C-like languages 22:39:49 AlexHe [~AndChat32@117.136.2.60] has joined #lisp 22:40:13 *|3b|* wonders if smalltalk counts as C-like 22:40:27 Algol like. 22:40:30 good news is, you can forget them if you avoid C long enough :) 22:41:04 ok was it algol that introduced record.slot perhaps 22:41:18 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-165-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:50 n00b6502: (ql:quickload :infix) #i(1 + 2 * 3) => 7 22:42:50 -!- Patzy_ [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:09 #i(length("foo")) => 3 22:44:03 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-133-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:44:19 you can have multiple expressions too but I forgot the syntax 22:44:26 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:08 (let (s) #i(s = "hello", length(s) + 1)) 22:49:11 -!- Demosthenex [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:49:50 #i(:hello) gives me an error, doesn't seem to work with keywords, : confuses it. 22:49:53 did i read something about syntax aware merging for versoin control somewhere... perhaps that is easier with lisp synta 22:51:37 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 22:51:37 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:51:55 possibly one thing i'm finding appealing about lisp is, with C so firmly engrained it might be easier to learn a different languge without many syntax rules (e.g. starting to read haskell with its arrows and composes, they clash with many symbol meanings in c..) 22:54:41 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 22:57:00 urandom__ [~user@p548A2B6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:03 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:57 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.133.191.154] has joined #lisp 23:02:33 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:02:51 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit 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joined #lisp 23:21:19 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 23:24:34 -!- xpololz [~xpololz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:24:37 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:24:54 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Client Quit] 23:24:59 -!- superflit [~superflit@67-40-129-192.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:25:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.213.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:25:41 -!- macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: snooze time] 23:27:08 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:30:04 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 23:39:57 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:43 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:45:30 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.169.55.21] has joined #lisp 23:45:43 -!- AlexHe [~AndChat32@117.136.2.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:41 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:50:29 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:51:42 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:52:01 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:09 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:54:33 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:49 is slime the prefered cl env? 23:54:56 *still 23:55:35 Yes 23:55:56 The only real competitor is Climacs, and it's not been actively worked on for a while 23:56:00 quazimodo: "still"? It's awesome. 23:58:29 didi: oh i didn't know? 23:58:47 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist]