00:01:29 futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has joined #lisp 00:02:42 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:02:45 Mazingaro_ [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:02:47 -!- Mazingaro_ [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:53 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:19 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:08:36 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-unnvpgedhjdlpqtv] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:09:20 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has left #lisp 00:11:10 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:45 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 00:12:16 -!- futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:39 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:22:57 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:02 Can someone give me a rough idea on how stable the Common Lisp standard is, as in how often is it modified from the original? 00:24:13 ZombieChicken: never 00:24:16 ZombieChicken: no modifications. ever 00:24:51 and there's no plans in the foreseeable future to make any official changes. 00:24:53 Is there a site that gives a description of the diffrence between Scheme and CL? 00:25:01 there is one addendum in practice, that is, the meta-object protocol, but it's smoothed out with closer-mop 00:25:08 all the rest is covered by libs 00:25:33 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:05 ZombieChicken: the differences are so numerous it would be a pretty big site. One of the previous scheme standards was 50 pages long, and the CL standard is 1000 pages. 00:26:48 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.54.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:59 they're completely different languages with some common terminology, superficially similar syntax, and sometimes completely different priorities. 00:27:37 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:27:38 scheme is probably closer to lua or javascript than to CL. 00:35:28 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.54.141] has joined #lisp 00:38:26 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 00:39:04 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:39:44 ok, ty for all the info 00:41:04 One more thing; is there a K&R-like (short and sweet) text for learning CL? 00:42:08 Practical Common Lisp is the usually recommended book. Available online here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:42:42 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Quit: ciao] 00:43:43 I don't think Practical Common Lisp qualifies as "short". I've worked through some of that, but it is a touch long winded for my taste, which is why I was asking if there was anything shorter 00:43:54 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:43:58 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:02 ZombieChicken: nope. 00:44:10 CL is a much bigger language than C 00:44:21 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:44:36 I'm sure of that, but one never knows until one ask 00:44:45 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:32 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: ss] 00:46:03 is there a language like CL with infix notation... an infix notaitoin frontend 00:46:28 or is the solution just better text editors (like paredit and lots of chromacoding etc) 00:46:28 n00b6502: dylan is such a language 00:46:41 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:47:48 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47:50 but presumably then youdont get the awesome macros 00:48:22 don't know about dylan, but various infix languages give you macros, but they suck big time 00:50:55 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:52 i think in principle i would prefer the purity of lisp syntax with assists to edit and visualize it 00:53:33 Have you tried SLIME? 00:53:46 n00b6502: I remembered scala had a macro library, so a quick google search brings me to this example: http://scalamacros.org/documentation/gettingstarted.html 00:54:02 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:52 I would google for a perl 6 example, but I want to be able to sleep tonight 00:54:57 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:55:05 what i have in my head is a lot of dynamic chromacoding and perhaps function arguments poping up as you move the cursor 01:02:14 SLIME does that and a lot more 01:02:35 well, you get argument hints when you type the function name by default 01:04:18 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:04:47 lcc_ [~lcc@75-173-89-242.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:29 -!- lcc_ [~lcc@75-173-89-242.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:33 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:20:41 ok 01:21:11 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:21:38 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:49 can lisp macros do something a bit like objective-c named parameters 01:22:08 keyword arguments? 01:22:22 what are those 01:22:32 maybe they ae 01:23:24 Why don't you read a book on Lisp, then you can get a solid base for your questions. 01:23:44 CrLF0710 [~user@222.63.97.244] has joined #lisp 01:24:37 -!- hagish [~hagish@p57BCFBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:52 WarWeasle1 [~brad@c-98-223-226-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:01 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 01:35:32 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:36:10 yCrazyEdd [~fronting@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:38:43 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:40:03 am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 01:43:23 sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 01:43:49 -!- sambio_ is now known as sambio 01:45:55 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:46:23 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:52 -!- WarWeasle1 [~brad@c-98-223-226-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:10 kanru [~kanru@189.120.163.57] has joined #lisp 01:56:10 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 01:57:26 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.54.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:52 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 02:13:50 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:04 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:17:58 stockholme [~stockholm@host-135-58-111-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:56 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:22:21 -!- stockholme [~stockholm@host-135-58-111-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:41 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 02:27:08 steffi_s [~marioooh@cpe-67-250-36-203.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:00 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:02 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 02:36:13 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:41:01 -!- loreints` [~user@anon-164-62.vpn.ipredator.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:44:26 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@cpe-67-250-36-203.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:52:56 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 02:58:03 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:54 -!- benny [~user@i577A7C9B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:04:33 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:15 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B55E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:35 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BFF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:18:13 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:18:17 mrsolo [~mrsolo@adsl-68-126-182-144.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:19 nullman [~nullman@75.73.150.26] has joined #lisp 03:20:26 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:20:47 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 03:23:23 -!- mrsolo [~mrsolo@adsl-68-126-182-144.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:23:58 -!- papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 03:25:00 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 03:29:09 papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:55 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:34:32 pspace [~andrew@c-50-131-57-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:50 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:38:26 ZombieChicken: Have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) 03:38:38 better than concentrate on differences, let's concentrate on what's common! 03:39:31 ZombieChicken: there are several tutorials, some of them short (~100 pages). Check http://cliki.net/ 03:39:46 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:39:51 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:40:01 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:43:48 ZombieChicken: now, if you have still a few brain cells left, I'd love to hear what you think of the following: given that the standard is more than 1000 pages, and describes the languages in a minimum number of words (there's no repeatition, reading an entry often requires knowing all the rest of the standard), how long do you think a tutorial that would cover the whole language would be? 03:45:47 That would depend on how in-depth the tutorial was 03:46:55 n00b6502: quick, what's (cadr '1+2*3-4) ? 03:47:10 ZombieChicken: that would be at least 5000 pages. 03:47:31 So if we give you a tutorial of a few pages, it won't cover the language at all. 03:48:52 Programming is hard, let's go shopping. 03:51:26 n00b6502: quick, what's (cadr '(- (+ 1 (* 2 3)) 4)) ? 03:51:38 what is (cadr '1+2*3-4) ... cadr is something to do with linklists, ' quotes a literal 03:52:01 n00b6502: exactly. If you have an infix syntax, you're screwed when you want to write macros. 03:52:23 yeah i figured lisps' syntax made its macros powerful 03:52:26 AST manipulation 03:52:38 You could have a reader that reads 1+2*3-4 as (- (+ 1 (* 2 3)) 4), but you're still screwed. 03:53:09 you'd have to have well defined points at which you switch 03:53:22 It's not lisp syntax that makes it powerful, it's the homoiconicity of its syntax: data and code have the same syntax. 03:53:46 one thing that interests me is the ability to create schema 03:53:49 schemas 03:54:11 in C/C++ one does all sorts of mess with 'x-macros', i can see the appeal of a very nice macro system 03:55:33 perhaps one could get the best of both with operators being infix but a prefix form of everything aswelll 03:56:05 Not at all. That's my point. (cadr '1+2*3-4) is too hard. 03:56:22 whenever i stray out of anything c-like the thing i really start to miss first is object.member 03:56:53 What's (car 'object.member) ? 03:56:57 infix operators restricted in their useability 03:57:12 e.g. not visible to the macro system 03:57:30 i've seen a retrofit to C which allows AST transformations but its highly nonstandard 03:57:34 So you're breaking the macro system. You can now get rid of it, congratulations. 03:57:47 Now you can go on ##c to talk about what remains of your language. 03:58:48 perhaps a text editor could parse the infix <-> prefix with the source strictly being prefix 04:00:31 n00b6502: you have to realize also that over the 978 symbols exported by CL, only 25 are special operators. The rest of the language are 88 macros. 04:00:41 Dovahkiin [~Dovahkiin@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:01 the 661 functions and the 88 macros can be implemented with those special operators. 04:01:50 ok i get it, if your'e trying to say "lisp macros beat infix" 04:02:00 "as a general tool" 04:02:08 Yes, lisp macros beat everything in programming. 04:02:27 hah even haskell ? 04:02:33 Sure. 04:02:40 Haskell was written in Lisp originally. 04:03:15 Thanks to macro, you can add to lisp any extension you want. That's why lisp is the ultimate programming language, and all the others are just DSLs, often written originally in Lisp. 04:05:09 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.163.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:47 funny how its got this powerful feature but most people react very negatively to prefix 04:07:05 Are you reacting negatively to prefix notation? 04:07:23 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:28 i'm reacting posatively to the idea of being able to manipulate the AST, i'lll say that 04:07:59 i guess there are probalby ways of using macros to make the object acess read ok 04:09:04 i found i could handle writing maths in prefix ok. 04:10:00 hi all 04:10:20 kanru [~kanru@189.120.163.57] has joined #lisp 04:10:48 Yes you don't write xdx, you write xdx 04:10:58 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:11:18 the main reason "maths in prefix" is ok is i ususally use a lot of helpers, like "lerp", "invlerp" etc 04:13:19 i suppose you could make a macro to sum products (mulsum (a b) (c d) (e f)) = a*b+c*d+e*f,( does that need quotes in there?) 04:13:36 i'm reading paul graham's "ANSI Common Lisp", and on p. 40 he says that conses can be interpreted as binary trees, "with the car representing the right subtree and the cdr the left." but if that's true, then where does the value for each node go? 04:14:19 values are leaves 04:14:20 ? 04:14:36 values are only on leaves, perhaps 04:14:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:13 why should node have labels? 04:15:28 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:15:47 Otherwise, the magic of cons cells, is that you can use them to build "cells" with more slots. 04:16:05 With two cons cells, you can make a binary tree node with a label: (cons label (cons left right)) 04:16:23 With three cons cells, you can make a ternary tree node with a label: (cons label (cons left (cons mid right))) 04:17:18 scheme doesn't have the lisp macro system then? 04:17:34 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 04:17:48 r5rs specifies a different macro system. You can easily implement the CL macro system. A lot of scheme implementations have both. 04:17:48 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for specifies a different macro system. You can easily implement the CL macro system. A lot of scheme implementations have both.. 04:17:50 pjb: the list he uses as an example is this: (a (b c) d) 04:18:13 jfe: are we talking of trees or of lists? 04:18:26 jfe: that said, instead of cons cells, you can also use lists to build tree nodes. 04:19:44 pjb: we're talking about interpreting that list as a binary tree; i don't quite see it. 04:20:05 jfe: ok, so you have to decide how you interpret the contents of the list. 04:20:28 For a binary tree with labels, you can represent each node as a list (label left-child right-child) 04:20:44 is there a predefined macro to set multiple slots on an object e.g. (set-slots object (slot1 newvalue1) (slot2 newvalue2)...) 04:20:45 Then the lists should have three elements. 04:20:52 n00b6502: setf 04:21:05 thats neat 04:21:10 as in: (setf (slot-value object 'slot1) value1 (slot-value object 'slot2) value2) 04:21:30 ok i've got in my head definitng another shortcut 04:21:47 you can do with-slots, and setf those 04:21:49 there's with-slots too. 04:22:58 (with-slots object (setf 'slot1 value1 'slot2 value2 ) ) perhaps 04:24:08 I think you should learn enough CL to program comfortably, and then think about what extensions you want for your own code. 04:24:16 jfe: have a look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0c66e597e08be90d 04:24:34 clhs with-slots 04:24:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm 04:24:45 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:37 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.163.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:26:12 kanru [~kanru@189.120.163.57] has joined #lisp 04:26:24 jfe: now, if (a (b c) d) is an example of the tree definition of page 40. that you gave above, then the conses are: (a . ((b . (c . ())) . (d . ()))) ; you should be able to draw the binary tree (with labels attached only to the leaves) easily. 04:29:55 VieiraN_ [~VieiraN@201-95-165-77.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:32:03 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:24 is there a tool along the lines of 'hoogle', a lisp search.. e..g. write a peice of lisp code and it tells you what the name is 04:35:42 checks for identical peice of AST 04:35:54 Yes. It's called google. 04:35:57 :-) 04:36:07 google doesn't know about lisp AST surely :) 04:36:41 There's so many different ways to write the same function! 04:36:45 lets say i write my macro (set=slots...) ... i submit the implementation - and it tells me if it already exists 04:37:04 n00b6502: for example: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/l99/p06.lisp 04:37:12 sure its not going to be a magic bullet,but i figured it might be a virtue of evrything being in AST form that its easier to do here 04:37:21 there are so many ways to write the same macro!!! 04:37:39 n00b6502: but you can have fun trying to write such a tool. 04:37:57 'duplicate function detector' i guess 04:38:04 it is usually called 04:38:30 -!- jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:39:00 On the other hand, if you have a look at the libraries, the functions doing the same thing, while being written often quite differently, are usually named the same. 04:39:58 i suppose such a database keeping a list of synonymous function implementations might be nice 04:40:11 It's a free internet. 04:40:44 -!- VieiraN_ is now known as VieiraN 04:41:58 i think i'd have to write the 'set-slots' thing to do anthing 04:42:05 and probably a load more 04:42:20 why not just use with-slots? 04:43:19 C++: obj.x=10; obj.y=20; my idea: (set-slots obj (x 10) (y 20)) . what does that look like using "with-slots" 04:43:38 (with-slots (x y) obj (setf x 10 y 20)) ! 04:44:21 even if i was only going to use it once i think i'd write my macro 04:44:56 because its grouped nicer 04:45:06 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 04:45:31 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:49:12 -!- pspace [~andrew@c-50-131-57-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:49:54 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:51:46 is there such a thing as an n-ary 'set-slot' 'get-slot' e.g. c++ obj.part1.x=10 (set-slot (obj part1 x) 10) ... perhaps the brackets in the 'my idea' could acheive that. (set-slots obj (part1 x 10)) 04:52:35 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@201-95-165-77.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:52:51 let me find a repl. 04:52:57 VieiraN [~VieiraN@201-95-165-77.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 04:53:05 n00b6502: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/190d771c0e033a1c 04:53:12 http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html 04:53:45 i'm guessing someone somehwere has written every macro i have in mind :) 04:54:01 you have 50 years of learning to catch up. 04:55:18 lisp from c++ 04:55:26 pjb, using EVAL seems like a desperate move :( 04:55:39 pjb: hm, might that be better with defsetf or something, so you can avoid eval? I'm not sure how you'd do it, but.. 04:55:47 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has left #lisp 04:55:58 Yes, but for structures you cannot do otherwise, conformingly. 04:56:31 there's no setf-expander for structure slots (not necessarily at least). 05:02:50 Bike: now you're right, using define-setf-expander for -> would let use define it for structure slots without using eval. 05:06:43 heh every language does one thing amazingly well, and one thing amazingly badly. 05:07:40 -!- Dovahkiin [~Dovahkiin@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Dovahkiin] 05:09:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-153.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:13:43 Bike: there's a problem with defsetf or define-setf-expander for ->: the object type could change at run-time, so the operation to use to set it cannot be decided at expansion time. 05:14:15 n00b6502: and you are likely to change your mind on what those things are as you progress from a beginner to an advanced user 05:15:43 pjb: oh, I hadn't thought of that... maybe if n00b wants to keep the usual use of dot semantics, you'd only need it on standard instances, though. 05:17:06 i can see with macros you could certainly wwork without dot semanics. it is just the one thing that jumps out first leaving c-like-land 05:18:03 i can see the potential to set multiple things at once is interesting :) 05:18:06 -!- CrazyEddy [~fronting@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:19:13 n00b6502: setf doesn't set multiple things at once. Try psetf for that. 05:21:14 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:21:17 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 i supose with-slots is more like writing 'member functions' in c++; perhaps there is a 'with-all-slots' or even default behaviour if givn an empty lotlist 05:22:36 n00b6502: actually, with operators are bad. There are blogs about how bad it is! 05:22:42 oh 05:22:53 can you sumarise why? 05:23:00 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:23:12 with-slots is good because you can use a different variable name for each slot. 05:23:14 and would my 'set-slots' be bad for the same reason 05:24:10 (with-slots ((x1 x) (y1 y)) pt1 (with-slots ((x2 x) (y2 y)) pt2 (make-pt (+ x1 x2) (+ y1 y2)))) 05:24:37 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 05:24:38 but the with of Pascal or some other programming languages don't allow this renaming so they're useless. 05:25:33 usually my C/C++ head has me splitting code into functions dealing with 'source' and 'dest' objects 05:25:38 set-slots would be uterly confusing. What would (set-slots obj (x (+ 1 x))) mean? 05:25:56 I remember using something like a (with-fast-accessors (:prefix obj) (setf prefix-foo bar)) for inlined access to internal C structures 05:25:59 This is not ##c! 05:26:32 n00b6502: go learn CL or stay in ##c! 05:26:54 heh. every channel has its language zealots convinced theirs is the only way 05:26:59 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:27:03 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has joined #lisp 05:27:24 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 macros do create potential for conflict as different programmers can create such different styles 05:28:18 but personally i would not enjoy coding without them 05:28:41 No, there's no conflict, because macros are lexically scoped. 05:29:19 n00b6502: but you still haven't said what would (set-slots obj (x (+ 1 x))) mean? 05:29:20 'set slots woould be utterly confusing...' there's conflict between you and me already. My first instinct would be to write that 05:29:34 n00b6502: what would (set-slots obj (x (+ 1 x))) mean? 05:29:53 If you cannot answer that simple question, it's proof your macro is uterly botched. 05:29:56 if x was a variable in the outer scope, it would use that i think? (if thats how they work) 05:30:08 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:30:12 And you don't find that confusing? 05:30:16 { x=4; obj.x=x+1;} 05:30:31 well, given that i might have variable and member names the same .... 05:30:37 n00b6502: well there's sort of a problem if you just fix CL to fit your preconceptions instead of coding in CL. you may as well code in C, see 05:30:41 the confusion would come from naming variables not the macro 05:31:18 i would not assume that any number of years had produced every macro that makes sense 05:31:24 for every single sitution 05:31:34 *didi* remembers "compiling" C-to-CL programs by hand 05:31:42 n00b6502: the point here is that macros let you design languages: Lisp makes you a programming language designer, not a mere coder. So you must design your macros taking into account this kind of consideration. 05:32:09 If your macro can be used in confusing ways, perhaps its design is not so good and you should think again. 05:32:31 for me set-slots would make sense because it is instinctively what i thought first 05:32:34 and I am not unique 05:32:40 i am not a snowflake 05:32:51 it'll make sense to a few others i'm sure 05:32:54 well, try it out and see how it goes. 05:33:15 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 05:33:42 http://fumaga.com/i/the-first-snowflake-of-the-season.jpg 05:34:35 Vernon, I'm falling! Oh shit I'm falling! :-) 05:35:09 That's why I read xkcd. 05:35:44 phadthai: clean your brain: http://what-if.xkcd.com/6/ 05:36:07 I read that already :) 05:38:44 set-slots above, i think if using 2 objects one would create a load of temporaries reading from one thing, then write to another with ste-slots 05:39:51 With-slots doesn't work using temporaries 05:39:58 On the other hand, you may prefer with-accessors. 05:40:17 (which uses even less temporaries). 05:41:25 minimizing the number of temporaries is something i'm in 2 minds about, on the one hand its like self-commenting to name parts of an expression, on the other, its irritating to have to name thigns that dont warrant naming 05:41:54 (e.g. like in C having to name small functions & intermediate structs that would be better anonymous) 05:42:52 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 05:46:14 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:47:42 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:48:25 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifetime expired] 05:52:16 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:52:42 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 05:53:57 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has joined #lisp 05:56:53 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 05:58:27 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:03:51 benny [~user@i577A77E4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:05:45 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.190.12] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 06:09:30 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@173-22-15-5.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:09:41 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12:19 -!- Daisy [Daisy@host-95-206-61-38.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:13:50 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-22-15-5.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:09 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15:46 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:15:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:15:56 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:20:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:20:51 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:24:36 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb update] 06:24:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:25:04 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.163.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:11 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:22 jjkola [~androirc@193-64-20-231-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 06:33:34 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:40 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:21 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 06:38:51 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:40:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:41:00 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:41:04 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:46:44 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:47:50 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:50:26 moore33 [~moore@17.185.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:07 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 06:53:17 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.190.12] has joined #lisp 06:53:25 -!- sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [] 06:53:51 xach: hey there 06:54:41 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 06:54:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 06:54:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:57:48 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@201-95-165-77.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:58:04 does lisp have a concept of 'const' or is that done with pure functions 06:58:26 (const object pointers as 'immutable sources' in c++) 06:58:43 (for making inputs/outputs clear) 07:02:39 There is an idea of constant bindings to certain values in Lisp 07:03:41 CrazyEddy [~magnetici@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:08:02 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 07:08:45 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 07:09:33 clhs defconstant 07:09:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcon.htm 07:09:37 -!- CrazyEddy [~magnetici@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:10:10 I find it a little weird. 07:11:18 not really constants.. more like 'read only arguments to a function' 07:11:57 pure functions are probably a better solution in newer languages i suppose 07:12:01 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:12:12 Just don't setf stuff? 07:12:32 i suppose an analyzer can generate documentation 07:19:30 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:20:24 structures and clos objects may have read-only slots too 07:20:46 ah i've seen that 07:20:52 thats quite neat 07:21:15 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 07:22:04 as for read-only function arguments you might need a custom defun macro or implementation-specific help 07:22:14 if you want to enforce that 07:23:04 clojure is a pure-functional lisp variant, right? 07:23:11 rwiker [~rwiker@52.84-48-39.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:38 i suppose it you're not writing separete header & implemenattion as per C++ there's less use for it 07:28:40 trying to find a language other than C++ to learn... 07:29:14 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:29:46 n00b6502: Lisp is awesome. 07:30:24 just discovered 'with slots' doesn't require you to list everything, thats nice 07:30:34 (with-slots () object (......)) 07:30:56 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:33:10 so (with-slots () object (setf ......)) nearly does what i wanted with 'set-slots' 07:34:29 does lisp have anything like tuples 07:35:14 loreints [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:32 Immutable sequence? 07:35:59 described as 'anonymous structs' for C++ heaad 07:36:12 *didi* doesn't know C++ 07:36:26 described as 'anonymous structs' for C heaad 07:36:41 Never heard of it. 07:36:53 i think its an immutable sequence, 'ad-hoc'.. 07:36:58 multiple-value-bind & friends may give you what you're looking for 07:38:20 just playing around in clisp repl .. seeing what it looks like to setup 3d vector maths 07:41:21 CrazyEddy [~magnetici@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:41:25 in that case, you should look at defclass adn defstruct (in that order :-) 07:43:28 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:43:52 has anyone here gone from a c like langauge to lisp and genuinely liked it 07:44:05 Absolutely. 07:44:40 one thing that appeals to me about lisp is you could easily use a subset as a dsl with a custom interpreter in a c++ program.. 07:45:24 n00b6502: I think you might be too hooked up to C++. 07:45:32 i'm not going to lose c++ 07:45:34 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.136.91.244] has joined #lisp 07:45:53 15+ years, and 23 years asm->c->c++ ... its staying in my head 07:46:06 You'll have to learn new ways. 07:47:44 is there a way to declare a partially applyable (curryable?) function like in haskell ,or is it prefered to always write (lambdaa..) 07:48:40 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-107-198-86-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:28 n00b6502, why not define CURRY (or use Alexandria's CURRY)? 07:49:57 Or just use a lambda (or defun) wrapped inside a let. 07:50:43 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.178] has joined #lisp 07:50:56 rwiker, how is that currying? That sounds more like creating a closure. 07:51:41 right? but n00b6502 also mentioned partial application 07:55:14 given a (defstruct point x y z)... 07:55:27 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.136.91.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:56:12 ..is there a better way to write (defun dot (a b) (with-slots ((ax x)(ay y)(az z)) a (with-slots ((bx x)(by y)(bz z)) b (+(* ax bx)(* ay by)(* az bz))))) 07:56:15 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:57:04 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:57:11 francogrex [~user@109.130.113.182] has joined #lisp 07:57:36 i guess i can avoid one set of labelling; is there something like a multiply-sum operator? (mulsum a b c d..) = a*b+c*d+... 07:57:52 n00b6502, you might as well just call the accessors directly 07:58:45 ah struct makes point-x point-y point-z i see 07:59:04 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 07:59:30 n00b6502, as you might find later, that can be customized, the names of the accessors 07:59:58 perhaps (defun dot (a b) (with-slots () a (+(* x (point-x b)).....))))) 08:00:53 n00b6502, http://paste.lisp.org/display/131214 08:00:57 do the acessors neeed the prefix to avoid namespace clash; and perhaps with classes it uses polymomrphism, so doesn't suffer that 08:01:17 you can specify the prefix. I've specified no prefix in that example. 08:01:25 ok 08:01:37 n00b6502, however, I suggest that you not focus on trying to minimize the amount you type. 08:02:18 I also suggest you don't specify a :CONC-NAME. I don't see any reason to. 08:02:43 i like it when you can both use verbose names and type a as with the 'with-slots' 08:03:01 bad example 08:04:01 n00b6502: it looks like you're trying to write a vector math library! 08:04:02 i'm liking 'with-slots' so far for clarifying the end 08:04:06 would you like some sb-cga with that? 08:04:13 sb-cga = ? 08:04:32 a better linear math library. 08:05:13 i figured trying to write something i'm very familiar with in C++ would be a good place to start.. 08:05:50 it sounds like you're not very familiar with the actual math behind this 08:06:06 how have you figured that out 08:06:07 oh, scratch that, sorry 08:06:44 done car-physics and 3d engines in c++, i'm quite familiar with 3d math 08:06:50 kk 08:06:59 anyway, if it's just an exercise, cool, but be aware that you are reinventing a very well optimized wheel 08:07:07 sure. 08:07:11 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 08:07:13 -!- vedm [~user@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:29 if it's for learning, you might as well start with defclass instead of defstruct 08:07:53 also, with-slots on a struct isn't portable 08:07:58 instantly i guess that defclass stores more RTTI than defstruct, but is that correct ? 08:08:12 n00b6502: CL does not specify anything about that. 08:08:14 ouch ok. whats the issue with "with-slots" 08:08:17 defstruct is basically a one-shot, which cannot be redefined without restarting your lisp environment 08:08:34 with-slots is specified as operating on classes. 08:08:41 some implementations extend it to operate on structs. 08:08:46 some don't. 08:08:49 heh ok 08:09:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:09:16 i hear of 'multiple dispatch' in lisp, that sounds cool 08:09:19 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:09:38 it is! 08:09:45 wouldn't use it in a linear math lib, personally. 08:09:53 absolutely i wouldn't :) 08:10:37 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:11:55 random q... is there a lisp with an LLVM backend 08:12:16 not yet (though you could do ECL -> C -> LLVM if you really wanted) 08:12:31 ah if you can go lisp->C i'm just as content 08:12:52 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 08:12:56 any reason that you want to go via C? 08:13:22 is there a lisp for iphone 08:13:22 sorry, that was not well stated. 08:13:25 rwiker, clearly he comes from a C (and/or) C++ background... 08:13:44 So I'm sure he's bound to miss it in the short-term. :) 08:14:29 the use of lisp as "goal" by naughty-dog on the ps2 had always fascinated me 08:16:15 at this point i'm tempted to ask, could a macro be setup to write the '(with-slots (ax x) ... (with-slots (ay y..) 08:16:34 to streamline writing lots of binary-operators for 2 points 08:16:57 n00b6502, I sometimes write a corresponding DESTRUCTURE- macro 08:18:30 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:19:09 i think macros are what i'm here for. 08:19:18 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:21:13 n00b6502, http://paste.lisp.org/display/131214#1 08:21:52 ok neat 08:22:30 destsructure as in "extract variables from structure.." 08:23:09 sure, i take the name from DESTRUCTURING-BIND 08:23:15 the pattern matching in haskell is pretty interesting 08:23:55 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:24:14 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:24:20 n00b6502, pattern matching, section 2.4 of http://www.defmacro.org/papers/cl-monad.pdf 08:24:22 n00b6502: also look at with-accessors btw, on some implementations that's optimized better than with-slots 08:24:27 where they'd say, if using tuples for x,y,z dot (ax,ay,az) (bx,by,bz) = ax*bx+ay*by+az*bz 08:25:01 i'm having a hard time picking a language to put serious time into other than c++ ... many options 08:25:14 n00b6502: I come from a C background myself and am using ECL, I like its integration with C and I like lisp to experiment with fast mostly-interactive development 08:25:41 n00b6502, Most of what you've been talking about sounds like writing short, concise code. Little typing. If you want that, choose a language like Haskell or APL. 08:25:42 ok that sounds like it could be right up my street 08:26:22 what seems appealing about lisp is, 08:26:39 the things one does with x-macros in C .. trying to fudge schemas - i gather lisp can do 'properly' 08:27:08 Not sure what you mean. 08:28:27 e.g. how much is required to declare a structure , then write an xml writer for it 08:28:47 c# is very concise at doing that due to reflection 08:28:59 That's shorter in Lisp than in C, and probably even shorter in Haskell than in Lisp. 08:32:06 when I said fast interactive development, here's an example: type one or a few functions in the editor, using C-c on them to compile them in the running image, test them at the REPL interactively, without caring much about speed other than chosing adequate enough algorithms or data structures 08:32:41 if further testing shows something is suboptimal and it's a problem, profiling will show what needs to be improved, then one can specialize more the critical code, add declarations, etc 08:33:16 i miss the REPL from basic childhood 08:33:33 Guthur [~user@host31-53-72-82.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:38 heh 08:34:15 repl's are awesome 08:34:38 Haskell has huge advantages over Lisp in some respects. Aside from the obvious type safety, Haskell is much more expressive with data types than Lisp. Same with other languages like Standard ML. Working with and manipulating some data structures in Lisp is either slow (overuse of stuff like dynamic dispatch) or hairy (writing annoying things like DESTRUCTURE-POINT). 08:35:07 -!- CrazyEddy [~magnetici@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:37 and the language is also powerful enough to easily "plug fast hacks" too, i.e. consider dynamic scoped variables vs function arguments, the difference between defvar and defparameter, between defstruct (where redefinition is undefined) and clos (where one an even provide migration code for existing instances) 08:40:22 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:30 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:41:35 with-slots doesn't work on structures. 08:41:53 pjb, it was discussed already :) 08:41:54 For structures, you must use with-accessors. 08:42:48 Not soon enough. 08:44:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.113.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:10 so basically I find that lisp can be used as a scripting language but is also more because of compilation, macros, declarations... 08:45:18 n00b6502: have a look at cling. 08:45:56 Quadrescence: last time I looked at it, Haskell didn't have a repl. (where you could define functions). 08:46:25 pjb, it does, you just have to say: let f x = ... 08:47:17 Prelude> let sq x = x*x \ sq :: Num a => a -> a \ (0.00 secs, 0 bytes) 08:47:26 \ = newline 08:48:17 compiling haskell is also very slow in my experience (too slow for interactive use), but I guess that interpreters could be used along with a repl (I admit I don't have much experience with it though, when I looked at it years back, it didn't seem general purpose enough to me) 08:48:20 ok, this time it works. But last time I tried it it didn't work. 08:48:21 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:49:34 How do you exit from ghci? 08:49:55 By hitting ^D 08:50:05 or :quit 08:50:06 Doesn't work in M-x shell 08:50:27 Ok, :quit works. 08:50:39 C-q C-d RET :p 08:51:15 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:51:45 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:46 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.190.12] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 08:57:52 Mon_Ouie: Yes, I tried that, and that's what didn't work. 09:00:21 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:06 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 09:01:38 superflit_ [~superflit@63-228-84-4.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:14 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.190.12] has joined #lisp 09:02:22 Another way of macrofying the 3d-point class: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131214#2 09:02:42 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:02:49 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 09:03:21 -!- superflit [~superflit@67-41-148-52.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:21 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 09:03:25 neat 09:05:12 You could have used with-accessors in with-points. 09:05:27 or with-slots, since it's a defclass. 09:05:42 i wondered if you could combine the defun and 'with-points' .. like a def-point-binary-function 09:05:53 and name the symbols a.x b.x instead of a-x b-x 09:06:06 n00b6502: can you design an algorithm for that? 09:06:14 If you can design an algorithm then you can. 09:07:12 I do something vaguely similar: DEFINE-POINTWISE-OPERATION: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/647c009921a9/fft.lisp#cl-14 09:07:37 (text only: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/647c009921a9/fft.lisp ) 09:10:15 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 09:10:24 (note, that code isnt very good. e.g, there's no good reason to have CATVEC) 09:10:28 if performance mattered a lot, it also could be a structure with a constructor that doesn't use keyword arguments, which would be fine as long if your point object is unlikely to change 09:10:47 sure, very unlikely 09:11:38 you could also use defstruct with (:type vector) 09:11:49 the constructor function could process its arguments faster if it's used a lot, and since redefining structures has undefined consequences, it allows compilers to use more static optimization methods 09:11:50 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:13:09 *Quadrescence* really wishes SLIME highlighted macros like paste.lisp.org does... 09:13:41 paste.lisp.org is written in CL; slime is written in emacs lisp. 09:13:50 indeed 09:13:53 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:14:18 pjb, good CLIMACS propaganda material. Thanks! 09:14:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-153.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:27 how exactly is paste.lisp.org highlighting macros differently? I see no difference. 09:16:48 Guthur, (purple) italics? 09:17:12 Quadrescence: if it's a with-... slime does that 09:17:43 does no different, case in point destructure-point is not highlighted 09:17:59 because it is not a with-... 09:18:00 I guess maybe paste.lisp.org isn't really highlighting macros. I see above it's not highlighting my DESTRUCTURE-POINT 09:18:04 yeah 09:18:06 My mistake. 09:18:16 (it would be nice if it could!) 09:18:24 there appears to be a bug in the lisppaste implementation (look for b-x) 09:18:26 yep it would 09:18:51 but so many of my macros tend to be with-... or define-... 09:18:56 which both get highlighted 09:21:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-153.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:24:20 map behaves like 'zip' potentially i see 09:26:41 n00b6502: map basically behaves like ALL the functions. 09:26:47 potentially. 09:27:05 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 09:28:34 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 09:33:12 moore33: hi 09:36:26 jao` [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:27 Guthur` [~user@host31-53-72-82.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:47 -!- jao` [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing 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update 10:10:05 It timed out during and update, slow internet, and then why I tried (ql:update-all-dists) again it says I already have the latest version 10:10:54 but I am left less than certain that update was indeed successful 10:11:24 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 10:11:57 Guthur`: the update just tries to fetch new versions of what you already have, but if it fails, it will just fetch them on demand. 10:12:42 ok, I suppose all should be well then. 10:13:21 damn slow internet, quite frustrating 10:15:17 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:15:51 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:31 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:22:56 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:25:53 cfy` [~cfy@125.123.43.194] has joined #lisp 10:27:47 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:51 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[Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:13:27 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:32 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:05 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 14:17:47 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:19:49 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.26] has joined #lisp 14:19:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.26] has quit [Changing host] 14:19:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 -!- Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:27:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:27:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-153.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33:26 is there any way to override hashing behavior for certain types or classes? 14:33:36 okay if sbcl-only 14:33:49 Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 -!- superflit [~superflit@63-228-84-4.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:36 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 14:35:30 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:36:11 <[6502]> hello... given a list of lists of xy pairs... how do you get the minimum X value? In python it's min(min(x for x,y in line) for line in lines) 14:37:09 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-221-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:37:44 if I remember loop has a minimize or such keyword 14:38:17 perhaps reduce could be used with the min function 14:38:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:23 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:29 ljp` [~user@123.120.63.209] has joined #lisp 14:41:46 freiksenet: maybe look at sbcl's make-hash-table :hash-function 14:41:46 hi 14:42:36 I dont know the difference between function and macro. who can help me? 14:42:39 <[6502]> (reduce #'min (map (lambda (line) (reduce #'min (map (lambda (p) (first p)) line))) data)) looks ugly 14:43:23 (defmacro ttt (zzz) (* 2 zzz));(ttt (+ 2 3)); why error occurs? 14:43:31 [6502]: (loop for (x y) in '((10 2) (30 4) (50 6)) minimize x) 14:43:37 ljp`: macro is a function run before evaluation, it takes source code as an argument and returns source code 14:43:39 will give you 10 14:43:39 ljp`: macros are functions, but which are used to perform code expansion at macro-expansion time (at compilation time) 14:43:52 <[6502]> ljp: a macro is a function, however it has lisp code as input and produces lisp code as output. It's called by the compiler when an invocation is found in the source and the result replaces the invocation... 14:43:55 phadthai: do you mean define-hash-table-test ? 14:43:57 -!- Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:44:12 stassats: (defmacro ttt (zzz) (* 2 zzz));(ttt (+ 2 3)); why 14:44:13 error occurs? could you help me? 14:44:22 that won't let me modify the yway 'standard' hash-table functions work, like equal-hash etc 14:44:28 ljp`: you're trying to multiply 2 by a list 14:44:39 try (defmacro ttt (zzz) `(* 2 ,zzz)) 14:44:57 <[6502]> ljp`: the input is source code, and the output must be source code 14:45:17 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:32 freiksenet: the documentation string for make-hash-table seems to mention the :hash-function keyword, which could probably take a custom hashing function 14:45:43 freiksenet: but I've not tried it 14:46:17 <[6502]> pavelpenev: so it's (loop for line in lines minimize (loop for xy in line minimize x)) ? 14:46:30 <[6502]> pavelpenev: so it's (loop for line in lines minimize (loop for (x y) in line minimize x)) ? 14:46:33 stassats: (defmacro ttt (zzz) (list '* 2,zzz)) works find. but i dont know why 14:47:04 stassats: (defmacro ttt (zzz) (list '* 2,zzz)) works fine. but i dont know why 14:47:06 phadthai: ah, I see now 14:47:12 phadthai: tnx 14:47:13 ljp`: try macroexpanding it 14:47:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.41.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:26 <[6502]> ljp`: that is wrong; the comma is not needed 14:47:44 ljp`: the part of the macro definition that doesn't return a list is actual code executed at compile time to expand that macro 14:47:48 <[6502]> ljp`: `(* 2 ,zzz) is more or less the same as (list '* 2 zzz) 14:48:19 phadthai: well, the returning a list part is executed too 14:48:26 hmm yes 14:49:19 ljp`: your goal is to write a function which takes (+ 1 2) and returns (* 2 (+ 1 2)) 14:49:30 (list '* 2 x) is one way to do it 14:49:50 stassats: yes. 14:50:36 -!- ljp` [~user@123.120.63.209] has left #lisp 14:51:21 [6502]: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131220 14:52:20 Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:22 pavelpenev: if you're not using y, just (x) 14:52:23 <[6502]> pavelpenev: ok... but i was looking for the minimum of the minimums, so probably (loop ... minimize (loop ... minimize x)) is the thing 14:53:25 stassats: oh 14:53:48 And for some reason I wouldn't use test data where the first element is always the right solution 14:54:16 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 14:54:16 pavelpenev: or if you want y, then (nil y) 14:55:45 stassats: I was actually wondering about that, I tended to use (_ y) like in clojure. 14:56:04 you can't use _ _ y 14:56:43 <[6502]> and you need to declare ignorable _, i suppose 14:56:53 Mon_Ouie: I'm only pseudo random :) 14:58:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:58:38 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:46 (set-macro-character #\_ (constantly nil)) then (loop for (_ _ x) in '((1 2 3) (1 2 3)) collect x) => (3 3) 15:01:40 (set-macro-character #\_ (constantly nil) t) rather 15:02:08 I can't quite think of a situation where _ would be a legitimate variable name, but I'm sure there is, so this example is not to be taken too seriously I assume :) 15:02:16 pap [~pap@modemcable184.11-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:02:21 -!- Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:04:40 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:04 -!- Netas3k [~Netas3k@unaffiliated/netas3k] has left #lisp 15:07:15 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 15:10:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:14:17 Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:16:15 <[6502]> http://paste.lisp.org/+2T91 15:16:30 <[6502]> that ignorable thing is sometimes annoying 15:17:43 <[6502]> is it helpful for spotting bugs at compile time often ? 15:18:23 yes. 15:20:29 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:20:58 ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:08 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:25:57 -!- Zol [~Zolomon@li152-84.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:25:59 -!- pap [~pap@modemcable184.11-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 15:29:01 http://ivan.kanis.fr/lisp.txt 15:29:07 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-67-80-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:16 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 15:29:27 I rewrote my article extensively, I eager to know what you think 15:32:32 ivan-kanis: definitely much better. 15:32:54 pavelpenev: thank you, I like dim's advice to start with a story 15:33:02 ivan-kanis: is it really the only one allowing class redefinition? 15:33:15 stassats: that's what Ron told me 15:33:19 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:35 stassats: I think he might mean instance update, in which case, I haven't heard of anything else doing that. 15:33:37 i wouldn't blindly trust such assertions 15:33:37 stassats: I am not sure myself, maybe Python does it... 15:33:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:33:43 Smalltalk 15:34:21 Guest4766 [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 15:34:28 OK I'll reword to instance update 15:34:37 Instance update? 15:35:17 Sgeo: you redefine a class, and your instances get updated to reflect the changes. 15:35:37 Pretty sure that that happens in any dynamic class-based OO language. 15:35:52 I remember actually being confused by that in Python once 15:36:12 (Although changing a class in Python is not convenient iirc) 15:37:36 Also, I don't think you meant to use (defclass c2 (c2) ()) 15:37:46 Because that shouldn't affect c1, as demonstrated. 15:37:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37:58 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.26] has joined #lisp 15:37:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.26] has quit [Changing host] 15:37:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:39:23 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 Sgeo: just tried it in python, I defined a class, made an instance a, then redefined the class with an extra method hello(), a.hello() didn't work. 15:40:38 billstclair [~billstcla@68.237.143.182] has joined #lisp 15:40:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@68.237.143.182] has quit [Changing host] 15:40:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:40:45 pavelpenev, in Python you can't use the class syntax to change a class 15:41:14 It makes a new class with the same name instead, and the old one can't be referred to by that name anymore 15:41:20 Ruby sort of allows it; re-evaluating the class expression doesn't create a new-class though, it just alters the existing class object. 15:41:40 kennyd [kennyd@93-138-232-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:42:24 Hold on, lemme try to make a Python example 15:43:32 sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 http://codepad.org/gOiWK2Qx 15:45:09 <[6502]> pavelpenev: you can change a class (e.g. adding a method) but you don't use a new "class ..." statement for that. You can just say for example "myoldclass.twice_x = lambda self: self.x*2" 15:46:47 so I can't just type C-c C-c, and be done with it, good thing I don't use python anymore :) 15:48:43 *[6502]* wonders about what is the ideal nesting depth for the human mind 15:48:49 ivan-kanis: (defclass c2 (c2) ()) should be (defclass c1 (c2) ()), no? 15:50:00 ivan-kanis: also always test code at the repl before including in a text. 15:50:49 lol :P(ython) 15:50:53 pavelpenev: nah, just show it to #lisp, same thing 15:52:04 a class inheriting from it's self blows my stack in sbcl. maybe that should be an error before I have to restart my image :) 15:52:36 ah, didn't have to restart, just hit abort several times 15:54:09 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:54:44 I think I read somebody recommend including tests with blog post code 15:55:04 can you test prose? 15:55:24 sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has joined #lisp 15:55:33 *[6502]* last week added docstring testing to his toy 15:56:04 [6502]: docstring tests, another thing I don't miss from python 15:56:30 <[6502]> pavelpenev: hahaha... you are not forced to do that 15:56:47 <[6502]> pavelpenev: and you can have docstring testing in lisp too 15:57:45 [6502]: the problem is reading code that does, I like tests in nice neat _separate_ files. docs are not tests, and tests are not docs. 15:58:21 <[6502]> pavelpenev: if you keep source, doc, and test in three places then they'll get out of sync. guaranteed. 15:58:52 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:59:06 <[6502]> pavelpenev: unfortunately not every function is easy to test without context 15:59:37 having everything in the same place tends to gravitate towards a mess 15:59:56 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:00:06 <[6502]> stassats: everything about a function, not everything 16:00:35 yes, having everything about a function in the same place 16:00:47 <[6502]> stassats: and pobably a good editor should be able to hide docstrings 16:01:29 docstnigs are there to give a short description of the object(CL has more than just function docstrings). Ideally there should be a more detailed document describing the system in more depth. 16:01:44 tests don't belong there. 16:02:14 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 hi! 16:02:31 *Fare* is back in Boston 16:02:33 <[6502]> pavelpenev: the problem is that even comments get out of sync, a separate document will always be lagging behind. What's worse than no documentation ? misleading documentation! 16:02:45 our BLM speaker has cancelled. Sigh. 16:03:15 [6502]: i don't see how having it in the same place will help 16:03:39 if you have so short attention span, then you either should stop drinking when writing code or go to your doctor 16:03:59 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:04:04 lisp-interface-library has been making loads of progress 16:04:20 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05:37 [6502]: what was that line about every sufficiently commented lisp program containing half of ML in it's comments :) 16:07:05 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:10:51 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:32 *Fare* is looking for a coauthor on his ilc2012 paper for lisp-interface-library. 16:12:30 Fare: aim for the lowest Erds number 16:13:13 pavelpenev: I ran it on the REPL, I'll double check 16:13:23 stassats, mine is 6 or so. 16:13:28 (that I know) 16:14:42 sorry, I mean 7. But I also have a finite Bacon number, so I'm in the Erdos-Bacon club. 16:17:19 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:18:06 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:18:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:18:22 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:57 superflit [~superflit@67-41-145-116.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:01 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:22:24 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:23:15 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:23:42 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 16:24:48 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:29:37 -!- Guest4766 [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:04 nice. I should soon be have an Erdos number of 4 (: 16:32:16 Fare: quick, coauthor it with pkhuong! 16:32:31 pkhuong, interested in datastructure munging? :) 16:32:53 pl 16:32:55 stassats, I don't think pkhuong is interested enough in this topic. 16:32:59 sorry 16:33:18 Fare: i've more than enough on my plate for now. 16:33:28 frankly, I think that define-linearized-interface is pretty cool. 16:33:40 and its adjunct or sorts, define-mutating-interface 16:34:28 take some pure API, automatically map it to a stateful API -- that's cool to me -- and I believe lil is the first one to actually automate it. 16:35:07 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 16:35:10 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:35:15 Fare: so it wraps an impure implementation in a pure API automatically and vice versa? 16:35:39 well, it can automatically linearize a stateful implementation into a pure (but use-once) API. 16:35:53 and it can automatically box a pure implementation into a stateful API. 16:36:23 unwrapping the relevant arguments before the call, and wrapping the results after. 16:36:40 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.143.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:12 I'm hoping to use the same metadata to do an automatic elimination of explicit interfaces from the API. 16:37:42 how hard would it be to have it implement Baker's shallow binding trick to have pure, persistent API, on top of stateful implementations? 16:38:30 somewhat hard, but doable 16:38:50 you'd have to add a level of indirection to all current stateful implementations. 16:39:30 I believe Sleator did it before Baker. 16:40:05 pavelpenev: you are totally right, I have corrected, thank you! 16:40:07 Actually, I kind of want to add this level of indirection, anyway, in some future 16:40:15 because of other tricks it allows 16:40:48 but that wasn't on the shortest path from zero to here 16:40:49 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 16:42:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:42:04 Fare: Driscoll, Sarnak, Sleator & Tarjan? It's only for linked data structures (i.e. nodes of bounded degree) 16:42:11 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:42:16 other tricks = use find-or-create-class to combine the actual object classes from various mixins. 16:42:28 =-=] 16:43:00 pkhuong, yes. I think more recently felleisen et al. also did something for modelling side effects with redex 16:43:06 hugod [~user@76.65.143.43] has joined #lisp 16:44:00 pkhuong, it would be cool to automatically implement the full baker trick, then 16:44:18 do you have a ready pointer of googlable name for the baker article? 16:46:01 "Shallow Binding Makes Functional Arrays Fast". The technique is older than the paper (Driscoll et al mentions it en passant), but Baker's presentation is very nice. 16:46:32 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:47:37 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:47:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:44 thanks 16:49:25 Fare: so you'll come to the ILC ? 16:49:43 I'll speak, too 16:49:52 goodie :) 16:49:58 but now I have to finish the article and prepare a presentation 16:50:13 I have enough original material in lil that I won't be ashamed of it 16:50:30 (paper accepted despite reservations on utter lack of useful examples in my draft proposal) 16:50:53 (well deserved reservations, I might add) 16:51:34 I gotta document the library and provide examples, including a "Minimal Viable Snippet" like fogus says 16:51:54 I have no idea what a "Minimal Viable Snippet" is for a datastructure library, though :-/ 16:53:36 implement a search tree or something 16:53:46 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 16:54:38 fe[nl]ix, you mean, use a search tree, in this case. 16:55:06 what's a simple algorithm that uses a search tree? 16:55:12 but not trivial 16:55:20 treesort (: 16:55:26 probably 16:56:14 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:56:21 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:56:46 or Prim. 16:56:50 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:53 Prim? 16:58:59 Prim's algorithm for minimum spanning trees. 16:59:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prim%27s_algorithm 17:00:44 Like tree sort, it only calls for a priority queue, but a search tree works just as well (assuming you have successor searches). 17:00:54 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:00:55 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:02:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 17:02:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 17:02:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:03:04 <[6502]> a best-first search for a simple game 17:03:40 <[6502]> the nodes need to be both in an heap and in a tree 17:06:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-69-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:06:05 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:08:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:04 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:10:41 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:00 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 17:12:10 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:12:17 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:01 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:34 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-107-198-86-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:15:43 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-107-198-86-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:25 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:18:33 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:38 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has joined #lisp 17:27:21 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.220.254] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:31:00 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:10 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:36:06 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:03 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:39:20 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:41:07 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:41:26 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:44:17 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:31 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:18 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:46:53 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 17:47:03 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:37 jewel [~jewel@196-210-160-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:48:00 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 17:57:49 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:58:20 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 18:01:14 ivan-kanis: "I can still feel the pain with I and my fellow colleagues felt when we fixed the billing software." --> "I can still feel the pain my fellow colleagues and I felt when we fixed the billing software." 18:01:42 ivan-kanis: why is it not written in French? Seems to me you should convince your telecom company 18:01:52 ivan-kanis: there's news:fr.comp.lang.lisp 18:03:07 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:26 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 18:04:55 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:11 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:21 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:07:35 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:07:47 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:09:15 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:38 bigmeow [~mirror@184.82.217.174] has joined #lisp 18:09:46 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:10 -!- pjb is now known as Guest1045 18:11:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-160-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:13:49 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 18:14:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:30 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:27:50 steffi_s [~marioooh@host-216-220-114-135.dsl.bway.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:37 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:30:03 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:30:07 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest73577 18:30:35 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:57 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:30:59 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:31:50 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:36:18 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:36:56 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:40:36 -!- Guest73577 is now known as PuercoPop 18:42:44 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:59 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb bugfix] 18:48:53 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 18:51:27 -!- Guest1045 is now known as pjb 19:00:08 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:25 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:01:48 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:07 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:17 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 19:06:26 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 19:09:01 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:12:58 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has joined #lisp 19:17:52 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:15 -!- pjb is now known as Guest84377 19:20:35 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 19:20:41 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:20:59 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:03 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:59 -!- Guest84377 is now known as pjb 19:25:00 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-65.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:11 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-65.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:25:11 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 -!- pjb is now known as Guest83273 19:29:13 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 hi all. what's the difference between using -- and not using -- #' in front of function names? 19:30:41 in function position you don't have to use it 19:30:42 What's the difference between using and not using * in front of numbers ? 19:30:42 #' is a reader macro that turns into (function name) 19:31:22 why not use the name by itself? 19:31:34 There are separate namespaces for variables and for functions. 19:31:40 what i'm asking is, when does one use #' and when does one *not* use #'? 19:31:47 add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:32:37 say you just defune's some func, then you can call it like (func....) or like (funcall #'func...) 19:32:42 You use the FUNCTION operator when you want to get a function by name as a value. 19:33:45 funcall expects a function, if you give it the name of a func as a symbol it won't convert it automagically into a func for you 19:34:23 -!- Guest83273 is now known as pjb 19:34:30 *Fare* just nested 13 binding forms in a function... w/o the nest macro it would be indentation hell 19:34:36 (defvar yo (lambda () t)) => you call it with (funcall yo). (defun yo2 () t) => you need (funcall #'yo2) 19:35:00 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:35:11 wbooze: you're wrong: (funcall 'sin 42) --> -0.9165215479156338 19:35:38 hmm.. rihgt, funcall does that automatically 19:36:04 ah 19:38:22 p_l: so you can't simply do: (yo ) or (yo2 )? 19:38:52 Not until yo is fbound. 19:38:57 you can do (yo2 ...) since yo2 is fbound 19:39:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:13 (yo) is not bound into symbol-function slot, so you need something different 19:39:15 (setf (symbol-function 'yo) (lambda () 'hi)) (fboundp 'yo) --> T (yo) --> hi 19:39:37 ^ that's in abbreviated form what DEFUN does 19:40:41 (note that being fbound/having a function in the SYMBOL-FUNCTION slot is a sufficient but not necessary condition to use (f ..) call syntax) 19:41:50 CL-USER> (labels ((sq (x) (* x x))) (list (fboundp 'sq) (sq 5))) 19:41:50 (NIL 25) 19:46:49 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:47:57 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 i can not open http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/ for two days 19:48:41 is it down, or it is my local problem? 19:48:48 it's not down 19:48:48 antonv, I can open it fine. 19:49:32 hm, my DNS can't resolve it 19:50:49 http://www.isup.me/http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/ 19:51:24 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:51:29 pjb: I am more at ease writing in english 19:51:39 pjb: thanks for catching my mistake 19:51:41 is it preferred to use paste.lisp.org instead of github's gists, or does it really matter? Trying not to piss the channel off. 19:51:44 thanks 19:51:59 clintm: paste.lisp.org is better 19:52:12 stassats: ok, thanks. 19:52:23 pjb: oh I am not trying to persuade my ex employer, they can to hell 19:53:03 antonv: works fine for me 19:53:16 antonv: and I got ipv6 prioritised in case that matters 19:54:14 it doesn't 19:55:18 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:55:50 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:33 ivan-kanis: how about your current or future ones :) 19:58:37 maybe ivan-kanis is self-employed 20:00:04 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-20-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 20:00:16 stassats: then he succeeded in convincing his boss! 20:00:47 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 20:01:26 i guess it's fun having a multiple personalities disorder and one personality being employed by another 20:01:55 reboot helped... 20:02:14 stassats: it's not economically viable because of taxes. 20:02:40 stassats: such a combination could result in very focused individual 20:02:57 Every time you pay yourself 100, the state takes 55. 20:02:58 antonv: do you have some sort of local DNS cache? I've had some trouble with pdnsd 20:03:29 pavelpenev: no special setup, just a windows machine 20:03:37 That explains. 20:03:42 Bad system, change system. 20:03:47 Linux is $free and free. 20:03:49 ) 20:04:08 pjb: maybe someday 20:04:41 not like linux is infallible 20:05:02 true pjb would have said "write your OS in Lisp" 20:06:45 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:07:13 linux has a lot of flaws, like the fact that the nvidia driver for my laptop is buggy unusable buggy and posibly leaks memory as well, so I have to use the open source driver which gives my laptop a suitable temperature for coffee brewing. 20:07:38 This is not a linux flaw, it's a nvidia flaw. 20:07:55 pavelpenev: that sounds a bit like the open source intel driver from 3 years ago (the leaks part) 20:07:56 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g 20:08:12 I think pavelpenev means that the user experience to be had on linux in various common hardware configurations is wanting. 20:08:35 just wait until nvidia rewrites their drivers in lisp 20:08:37 pjb: I know that, the 5 people I tried to convert and failed due to video driver issues don't 20:09:14 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:09:42 I ran into the problem with dual video cards that made Linus flip the bird at nvidia, and it was an ATI card. 20:09:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:24 but enough OT ranting 20:11:39 What's one or two things that are lacking in ANSI CL's directory/files library? 20:11:45 pavelpenev, stassats : I work for someone else 20:12:23 I write mostly in shell ;) 20:12:31 zort-: being able to rename "foo.lisp" to "foo"! 20:12:47 I am not much of a programmer anymore 20:13:16 (rename-file foo (make-pathname :type nil :defaults foo))? 20:13:40 right, can't do that 20:14:03 night night lispers 20:14:43 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:15:28 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:15:33 Huh, guess the thing after the dot isn't really a type. 20:15:51 anyhoot 20:15:57 it is a type 20:16:20 (rename-file foo bar) does (merge-pathnames bar foo) beforehand 20:16:28 no I get it 20:17:05 (rename-file foo (make-pathname :type :unspecific :defaults foo)) works on most implementations, except on clisp 20:17:07 indeed, for CL, there's a notion of type in pathnames. For unix, pathnames are just a vector of bytes. 20:17:22 can you write device drivers in lisp.. does it have direct control over memory 20:17:37 n00b6502: you can 20:17:40 (scrolling up to read comments) 20:17:40 Yes. Yes. 20:17:52 can of worms opened... 20:18:00 How do you make a stream that reads in an octet vector? Like with-input-from-string, but for vectors. 20:18:05 CL doesn't provide operators to control directly the memory, but an implementation may provide them, or access to them. 20:18:09 i remmember GAOL on ps2, but it was highly customized 20:18:18 GOAL sorry 20:18:18 zort-: use flexi-streams 20:18:27 zort-: with gray-streams, or implementing your own functions. 20:18:29 Does that give you a regular stream? 20:18:36 Because deflate:inflate takes a stream as an argument to decompress, but I just have a vector ._. 20:18:40 Gray-streams yes. 20:18:48 Flexi-streams is based on gray-streams. 20:19:49 is there anything specific in the colon for optional arguments or is that just convention used by various macros 20:19:54 n00b6502: a few people have written OS kernels in Common Lisp. 20:20:06 clhs keyword 20:20:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_kwd.htm 20:20:08 n00b6502: there's no colon for optional arguments. 20:20:29 n00b6502: for keyword arguments, there's nothing specific either: the keywords can be KEYWORDs or mere SYMBOLs. 20:20:58 n00b6502: it's easier to pass keywords arguments without having to exporting them and specifying them 20:21:12 specifying their package 20:21:25 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:26 (defun f (&key ((k a) 0)) (list a)) (f 'k 42) --> (42) 20:22:40 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-227-19.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:54 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:14 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-195-123.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:38 -!- jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 20:28:48 who couldn't love this http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-wav-synth/song-3.gif 20:29:58 doesn't seem user-friendly 20:30:45 but it is clim based! 20:31:08 H4ns: doesn't help user-friendliness 20:31:13 stassats: no? 20:31:29 it's one of those things that make me at the same time complain about and like CLIM :/ 20:32:07 a musician who used this as a tool to create music that i like would have my uttermost respect. 20:32:50 not like piano has the most friendly interface either 20:33:05 unless you have alien fingers 20:33:07 stassats: friendlier than that. to user, not newbie, that is 20:33:08 unfortunately H4ns' interest in Miley Cyrus and various forms of kpop precludes the respect from ever being given 20:33:10 did i see it right, it renders to a file that you can then play? 20:33:23 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:24 call me when you have this ported to lisp: http://vimeo.com/2502546 20:33:26 gifs have no sound 20:33:26 Quadrescence: lol 20:33:29 Quadrescence: "because you know anything about my taste" 20:33:33 ;) 20:34:17 Quadrescence: then, let's hear the soundtrack to the gif now. 20:36:12 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:36:48 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 Quadrescence: no really, from looking at the gif, i get the feeling that i'd have a hard time getting beauty created with that. what i can create with contemporary sound production ui's might not qualify as beauty either, though, so i'm hardly a reference. do you think that command driven batch composition has a future? 20:37:37 Quadrescence: or, if not a future, does it have a user? 20:37:56 well, they do write music on sheets of paper 20:38:27 stassats: some do, and some just improvise and then build on their improvisations iteratively 20:38:41 isn't wav-synth just for synthesizing short waveform snippets? 20:38:51 H4ns, honestly, no, that mode of composition probably doesn't have much of a future -- at least not command based. 20:39:53 H4ns: samplers seem to be pretty good at creating music... but it takes imagination and talent to create true beauty, I guess 20:40:15 p_l: imagination, talent and proficiency with the instrument 20:40:49 Quadrescence: but bravo for your stamina! :) 20:41:11 (note: I didn't make that program or gif!) 20:41:21 *Fare* completes the stateful<->pure transformers of lil with manual transforms for join/list and divide/list rather than an improved DSL to describe side-effects. 20:41:23 Quadrescence: oh. excuse! 20:41:38 I have, however, made at least one (1) CLIM application. 20:41:47 i have made one, too. 20:42:03 i found it, erm, not pleasant enough to do it more. 20:42:07 A GUI for a database, where you can edit and delete values, look at different tables, etc. 20:42:44 (in fact, it was for the database i'm describing at ILC2012) 20:44:52 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrvrxupiknwlxbxd] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:45:01 will the ilc be recorded? 20:45:01 -!- denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-majbtvxyiyoztkpd] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:45:40 Quadrescence, you're presenting at ILC2012? 20:46:42 yes 20:46:55 http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/2012/speakers.html#sec-2-2 20:47:29 pavelpenev, not sure, i'm going to try to get someone to record it at least 20:48:21 Quadrescence: does the end product use clim? 20:48:21 Quadrescence, nice! I'm looking forward to hearing you 20:48:28 mcclim? 20:48:53 stassats, the product described in the abstract? 20:49:03 yes, with 50 users 20:49:43 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-povwmykeebdllbvc] has joined #lisp 20:49:44 stassats, (it's really 50 customers, each customer consists of 2-10 users) no, it uses CAPI principally. Just an internal tool uses CLIM 20:49:49 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:49:58 i see 20:50:15 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:50:20 and, do you like The Cure? 20:50:39 ;) who doesn't 20:50:50 why The Cure??? 20:51:03 because of your name? 20:51:10 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:14 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nvynhvdmseoxgkvk] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 (yes) 20:51:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:16 *didi*  my pictures of you  20:53:16 :) 20:53:49 Fare, I also saw you're presenting too. You're one of two people who I recognized 20:56:47 <[6502]> kyoto? 20:58:17 yeah, the lucky ones ;) 20:59:17 <[6502]> i was thinking to go... i've a few spare vacation days; unfortunately it's in coincidence with an important event for the company i work for so i'm not sure i'll make it 21:01:31 nice nick 21:01:51 in my case it's "no way I'd be able to scrounge the money" 21:02:09 p_l: hitchhike? 21:02:52 stassats: ... that would be pretty epic hitchhike 21:03:03 beyond my abilities 21:03:15 (oh wait, I recognize a second person at ILC2012) 21:03:23 (i mean third) 21:03:36 (fare, raymond, jans) 21:04:16 what about the author of LiSP? you didn't recognize him? 21:04:18 -!- mmajchrzak1 [~mmajchrza@host-81-190-228-83.wroclaw.mm.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:04 oh him too 21:06:27 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:06:47 you can see his book hidden somewhere in this picture :) http://i.imgur.com/RbdED.jpg 21:07:10 Good supply of Tabasco sauce. 21:07:27 haha 21:07:28 I prefer habanero-based sauces these days 21:07:40 i as well 21:08:03 I need a name for an inline merge sort generator. 21:08:17 tabasco-sorc 21:08:19 sort 21:08:29 :) 21:08:33 pkhuong, please don't tell me you beat me to that recent racket article and implementing it as a compiler macro 21:08:56 Quadrescence: well, it's a bit niftier. 21:10:13 http://paste.lisp.org/+2T95 21:11:23 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 21:11:51 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.163] has joined #lisp 21:12:48 pkhuong: wow 21:12:53 -!- zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176315793.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13:26 is the autovectorization performed in inline-sort? 21:13:39 there's no vectorisation 21:14:26 pkhuong: hmm... well, it looked like that from sse registers 21:14:36 or is it just floating point done with it? 21:14:59 just scalar floating point. x87 is slow and a bit painful to work with. 21:15:22 p_l, don't worry, CMUCL can still compile to x87 instructions :D 21:15:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:28 heh 21:15:42 so does sbcl 21:15:51 SBCL still supports it? 21:15:52 Quadrescence: CMUCL can also do SSE on x86, unlike SBCL. 21:16:01 I actually remember gcc doing weird stuff to run x87 and sse simultaneously 21:16:04 Quadrescence: only it on x86 21:16:22 p_l: yeah, I don't know if that backend ever made it past the experimental stage. 21:16:41 pkhuong: afaik it works but can trip some code up 21:16:51 but who uses x86 nowadays anyway 21:17:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:18:15 stassats' suggestion is still the best (only) one ;) 21:19:11 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 21:19:11 i agree with stassats 21:20:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:23:09 zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176315793.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:24:15 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:24:26 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:25:06 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:26:25 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:26:47 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:36 thats a good questoin, lisp and SSE/SIMD 21:29:44 (remembering GOAL on ps2..) 21:30:41 n00b6502: GOAL basically had an inline assembler that created packets for the coprocessors and code to run them, iirc 21:34:53 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 21:36:25 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:37:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:00 pkhuong: What are the XORs in the disassembly for? 21:38:46 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:39:27 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:40:02 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 21:42:21 -!- papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 21:43:57 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:47:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:00 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:29 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:31 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:20 -!- [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:59:08 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-65-1-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 22:00:25 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@p57BCFBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01:44 any examples of using drakma with a keep-alive socket? 22:02:42 XOR is logical exclusive or. XOR reg,reg is a way to clear a register without using literal data 22:03:08 I know that much, but that isn't what's happening. 22:03:34 It seems to be xoring the arguments with some constant and I'm wondering why, out of curiosity. 22:04:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-160-39.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:29 is it tagged memory 22:04:45 do lisp runtimes use tagged memory for garbage collection 22:05:15 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host86-173-123-205.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:06:45 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:13 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:08:26 Bike: negating double floats by flipping the sign bit 22:08:26 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 22:09:20 thanks. 22:11:16 -!- clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:45 clintm [~user@131.191.81.250] has joined #lisp 22:13:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:03 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:48 drdink [~drdink@c-24-13-109-65.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:08 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:23:11 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:30 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:55 -!- clintm [~user@131.191.81.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:30:33 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:31:39 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 22:32:19 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:06 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:13 papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:15 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-106-116.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:34:40 sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:34:42 -!- sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:08 sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:36:43 Any personal recommendations for a parser generator for this sort of script?: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131226 22:37:10 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 22:37:22 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:38:04 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:41:32 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host86-173-123-205.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:24 zort-: awk, or clawk? 22:42:47 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:44:02 black_joe [~user@75.104.132.171] has joined #lisp 22:45:06 I don't think so. That's line-based, this script doesn't care about lines. 22:45:46 grammar 22:47:08 the frame structure looks line-based. 22:48:42 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 22:50:21 kanru [~kanru@189.120.104.191] has joined #lisp 22:50:38 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:53:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:43 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-92.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:53 -!- black_joe [~user@75.104.132.171] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:55:55 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:58:17 abeaumont [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-142-25.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:01:48 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:05:22 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:17 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:06:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.153.59.217] has joined #lisp 23:08:08 holycow [~start@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has joined #lisp 23:15:34 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-107-198-86-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:17 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:19:48 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:51 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:25:08 -!- pskosinski [~pk@83.19.206.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:25:13 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:26:26 whadya think of ? 23:27:46 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.104.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:53 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:29:04 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:35 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:54 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:45:59 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:45:59 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:49:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:28 kanru [~kanru@kanru.info] has joined #lisp 23:53:29 does anyone have experience with cl-base64 (loaded through quicklisp)? i'm trying to use cl-base64:stream-to-base64-string, which the cl-base64 defpackage exports, but my repl tells me is undefined... 23:57:09 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:57:34 robot-beethoven: That's interesting. Same here. And a rgrep at the distribution directory only returns one result: the defpackage export. 23:58:08 well, the x-to-y things are defined by a special macro, so the grep wouldn't help anyway 23:58:23 Ah, I see. 23:58:26 and it doesn't look like it actually provides any support for streams as input. 23:59:03 -!- harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:59:14 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp