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joined #lisp 00:32:37 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-148-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:42 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:32:51 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 00:33:12 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:33:22 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 00:33:48 who is Dimitri Fontaine? 00:33:51 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:34:11 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:34:17 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:26 why do people write wrong things on their blogs and don't even have a comments functionality? 00:34:37 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:34:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:52 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:36:38 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 00:36:40 the "fast and stupid" article? 00:36:44 yes 00:37:11 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 00:37:26 because to the unsuspecting reader, there are no comments to take away from the author's percieved intelligence 00:37:28 it says he wouldn't mind a CL guy telling him what's up, but has no contact info... 00:37:41 the result of that function on (expt 10 10) is 66 bits 00:37:49 ccl screws up and overflows the fixnum 00:38:27 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has joined #lisp 00:38:41 and, it's a silly benchmark anyhow 00:39:42 there's an email on his github. 00:39:48 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:39:56 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:09 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:40:16 with proper declarations ccl will take ages to compute it 00:41:14 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:17 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has quit [Client Quit] 00:41:38 and he's not even using unsigned long ints in c 00:41:43 so, the whole post is crap 00:41:52 fast and stupid article? 00:42:03 yes, they article is stupid indeed 00:42:06 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has joined #lisp 00:42:17 no, no--what's the article? 00:42:38 just google "dimitri 00:42:42 *dimitri fontaine 00:42:47 Cosman246: planet.lisp.org 00:43:09 the only proper code is for python, which shows how slow it is 00:43:44 A lot of the python community acts cultish 00:43:52 But I digress 00:44:36 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:45:30 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:46:49 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 00:50:09 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:45 dim: see above 00:51:09 harish [~harish@111.65.29.35] has joined #lisp 00:52:05 i can only offer a faster solution: (defun sum-fast (max) (/ (* max (1+ max)) 2)) 00:53:57 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 00:55:02 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 00:57:05 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:58:07 too bad the compilers aren't smart enough to deduce that 00:59:36 VieiraN_ [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:00:37 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has joined #lisp 01:01:40 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:34 -!- 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[~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:08 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:08:57 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.104.101] has joined #lisp 03:12:10 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:14:11 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has joined #lisp 03:14:55 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:15:35 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A2FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:06 -!- agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:19:11 -!- MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@123.136.106.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:20:39 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 03:21:45 hello everyone , can we make a 3d engine use lisp? 03:22:22 it maybe fun 03:23:51 loreints` [~user@anon-174-23.vpn.ipredator.se] has joined #lisp 03:24:06 nobody :-[ 03:24:48 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@123.136.106.121] has joined #lisp 03:25:49 -!- loreints [~user@anon-168-19.vpn.ipredator.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:27:27 -!- loreints` [~user@anon-174-23.vpn.ipredator.se] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:29:51 luck_dog: I think there 03:29:59 *there's been some work on that 03:30:15 See CL-OPENGL and LISPBUILDER-SDL 03:36:02 as if not easy 03:36:13 luck_dog: see also #lispgames 03:41:25 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 03:42:36 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:46:25 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 03:48:03 loreints [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:30 luck_dog: yes you can make a 3D engine use lisp. 03:49:33 two ways to do it 03:49:37 1, write it all in lisp 03:49:43 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 03:49:52 2. write lisp in your game, ala ECL 03:50:01 I betcha the ECL way is the most effective 03:50:56 luck_dog: go as on #lispgames 03:50:58 ask 03:51:25 luck_dog: there is a 3d lisp game engine, Blackthorn. 03:51:38 or call out to a C engine from lisp. 03:52:45 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:07 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:07 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:22 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:26 -!- pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pulse40] 04:04:52 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 04:06:30 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:10:40 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:12:12 -!- rtj [~rtj@bb121-7-122-125.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: rtj] 04:13:08 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 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[Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:05:34 -!- Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:05:46 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 05:06:54 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.55.252] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:07:02 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-21-129.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:08:49 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:09:21 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:41 -!- Ottre [~ottre@wikipedia/Ottre] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:02 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:11:02 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ildmgahgxgcomljg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:12:37 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:13:44 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:08 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 05:15:06 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-lbnwflsxqnkyszfu] has joined #lisp 05:15:06 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-lbnwflsxqnkyszfu] has quit [Changing host] 05:15:06 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:20:51 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:21:53 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:23:52 drcode [~tp131@213.57.57.2] has joined #lisp 05:23:56 hi all 05:23:59 what is lisp? 05:24:00 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:24:06 dose it cross platform lang? 05:24:17 yes it does. 05:24:28 if you push it slightly, it crosses platform lang. 05:24:38 here, give it a push. 05:24:41 drcode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp http://cliki.net 05:25:07 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 05:25:25 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:43 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 05:25:48 Qinix [~qinix@124.126.227.72] has joined #lisp 05:25:54 -!- sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [] 05:25:59 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 05:26:51 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:39 it mean I can write one code and compile it in windows,linux,mac,ios,android? 05:27:50 Yes 05:28:04 drcode: ios and android not so much 05:28:16 There are serveral implementaions, one is enough. 05:28:16 H4ns: what do u mean? 05:28:45 can I use cffi with lisp on cross platform include android and ios? 05:28:46 Nothing, he's just rambling. 05:28:49 drcode: i mean that there is no common lisp on ios or android that would be suitable to application delivery 05:29:02 There are: ecl, ccl, etc. 05:29:14 I see 05:29:43 lisp work like python , it will need run time? 05:29:45 drcode: of course, if you want to deliver a fibonacci number calculator, you'll be able to do so on android and ios as well, with a little pushing 05:29:59 ok 05:30:06 drcode: even C needs a run time! What the fuck are you asking here? 05:30:12 I think to use ext, share ib 05:30:15 lib 05:30:27 dose lisp support cffi? 05:30:33 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:30:36 What else supports CFFI? 05:30:43 neko 05:30:47 drcode: stop trolling, it's not funny. 05:30:59 Cat? 05:31:06 ok 05:31:07 *H4ns* loled 05:31:08 sorry 05:35:18 -!- drcode [~tp131@213.57.57.2] has left #lisp 05:38:24 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:34 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 05:43:08 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 05:43:37 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:45:14 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:47 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 05:46:47 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@123.136.106.254] has joined #lisp 05:49:08 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:49:21 nuklly [cf2e5c11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.46.92.17] has joined #lisp 05:49:56 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 05:51:25 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 05:51:36 -!- Guest14436 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:53:09 -!- nuklly [cf2e5c11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.207.46.92.17] has left #lisp 05:53:11 chenbing [~user@223.166.94.111] has joined #lisp 05:53:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:54:21 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:55:58 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:58:47 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 06:00:15 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.143] has joined #lisp 06:01:55 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 06:01:55 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:03:03 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:03:58 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:03:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:03:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:04:10 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 06:04:10 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:05:07 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 06:09:46 -!- MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@123.136.106.254] has quit [Quit: Bye bye now] 06:10:33 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:11:16 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:25 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 06:12:30 Could someone take a look at this ? It's a function that's supposed to be calling a C function, using CFFI. Am I doing it right? 06:12:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:12:59 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-107-198-86-59.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:16 didi: are you sure freeing all that is a good idea? 06:13:31 pkhuong: Hum... 06:13:45 That's a good question. 06:14:01 Yeah... I think you're right. 06:14:40 Oh well, take two. 06:15:57 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 06:16:13 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:17:07 pkhuong: Just for a moment, let's say "yes" (although it's not). I'm calling the function correctly and then cleaning it up? 06:17:29 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@61.14.130.226] has left #lisp 06:17:33 didi: no clue. I don't use cffi. 06:17:38 oic 06:17:56 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-xehdenfzizgsgdjo] has joined #lisp 06:18:44 the string foreign alloc seems to do a lot of magic. I'd double check that the strings are correctly null-terminated and that they're not allocated all at once. 06:19:08 i think you can use defcfun to simplify things? 06:19:19 mskou72 [~mskou72@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:20:35 Bike: Maybe, but I don't know how I would define the types to make the conversion. 06:20:49 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20:49 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21:41 I think it does that automatically. 06:22:15 The manual has «(defcfun "strlen" :int (n :string)) (strlen "123") => 3» 06:22:53 Is there a prefered (django-like) web framework for Lisp? 06:23:12 Bike: But what about an array of string pointers? 06:23:20 -!- oskarth [~Adium@ool-43569803.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:25:30 mskou72, have a look at hunchentoot. It's just a webserver I think, but it has a bunch of links on its site for CL web development. 06:25:40 pkhuong: I'm basically coping this part of the manual 06:26:36 I have played with hunchentoot but was looking for something with templatesystem and orm. 06:26:46 oh, well if that's how the tutorial does it... 06:27:02 mskou72: Lisp is the ultimate template system. ;^) 06:27:11 mskou72: for templates, you could look at html-template. 06:27:28 mskou72: for orm, there is cl-sql, elephant and cl-perec 06:27:43 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 06:27:51 mskou72: there is nothing in lisp that resembles rails in integrating all of it 06:28:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.206.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:29:05 linkerdkt [~user@203.39.205.3] has joined #lisp 06:29:50 ok, we should build/assemble that :-) 06:30:07 mskou72: "hah" 06:30:40 yes, good joke, i know :-) 06:32:15 we just got to figure out a cool name for it first! 06:32:29 who is the "we" you keep on talking about? 06:32:34 -!- meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:33:06 there is such a thing as "lisp on lines" 06:33:16 right. and claw. and bknr. 06:33:20 there is no I in we :-/ 06:33:38 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 06:33:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:34:13 none of which has much traction. face it: lisp will stay fragmented. it is best to improve the fragments rather than dreaming of the all-encompassing megaframework. 06:35:03 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:36:34 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:38:26 H4ns, not the most rousing of speeches. 06:38:57 jack_rabbit: i'm not a marketing person. 06:39:22 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:30 :) 06:39:34 quick, someone hire a marketing person 06:40:14 I feel like lispers are the native americans of software development. 06:40:21 heh 06:40:25 this should be interesting. 06:40:34 how exactly, jack_wabbit? 06:41:26 Well. We have lisp, which many lispers will tell you is the best language on the planet, and yet libraries and support seem to be, as H4ns said, fragmented and under-developed. 06:41:55 jack_rabbit: i did not say under-developed 06:41:55 oh that's because hardly anyone actually uses it for anything. 06:42:00 I apologize if I've offended any Native Americans. 06:42:25 s'ok, when i go to the cherokee casino, i will tell them jack_rabbit said sorry for what he said. 06:42:40 bjorkintosh, or does hardly anyone actually use it for anything because it has poor library support? 06:42:40 it is likelier that i will go to osage. so osage casino. 06:43:11 H4ns: sorry to put words in your mouth. 06:43:14 what is this "poor library support" that you're talking about? 06:43:21 the libraries are fine. 06:43:30 H4ns: maybe I'm insane then. It's quite possible. 06:43:42 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has joined #lisp 06:43:45 all i said is that an attempt to build a framework which "integrates" "everything" is futile. 06:44:10 jack_rabbit: no, i'm interested in knowing what you mean by "poor" exactly? 06:44:12 I've probably overstepped my knowledge here, so I'll be quiet now. 06:44:53 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:54 -!- linkerdkt [~user@203.39.205.3] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:45:06 H4ns, From what I can see, it's hard to find a currently maintained library or framework for the things that one might want a library or framework for, or at least much harder than it is to find one in C or comparable languages. 06:45:46 H4ns, but I'm still a relative newbie, so I probably should have just not begun speaking. 06:46:19 jack_rabbit: well, i need to agree to some degree. i can enumerate gui, oauth, websocket as areas where lisp libraries are under-developed. 06:46:58 jack_rabbit: and what i conclude from that is that someone needs to develop these libraries better rather than trying to rewrite rails before knowing lisp properly. 06:47:17 H4ns, :) 06:48:10 H4ns, I think my issue is that i can find like 5 libraries for socket-interfaces, but they are all old and no longer actively developed, or they have a very small developer base. It is, as you said, fragmented. 06:48:35 eh. it is really not so bad is it? 06:48:38 things still work. 06:48:53 bjorkintosh, not so bad, but for one of the oldest languages, it's pretty bad. 06:48:55 jack_rabbit: if you'd ask here, you'd get two answers. use usocket. and use iolib (as the world only matters with posix) 06:48:55 usocket, iolib, and what else? 06:49:02 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:49:29 jack_rabbit: I'd expect older languages to have more old and inactive libraries. 06:50:06 jack_rabbit, how are the socket-interface libraries in cobol and fortran these days? 06:50:19 bjorkintosh: i'd expect them to be very cool 06:50:28 pkhuong, maybe, but I'd also expect it to have many old maintained libraries. 06:50:38 H4ns, to the touch. 06:50:39 jack_rabbit: and i agree again: it is hard to see the good things with all that dead crap lying about 06:50:42 -!- wuhen [~wuhen86@218.206.231.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:13 bjorkintosh, I guess the difference is that there are those that think that lisp is still very useful, wheras cobol and fortran maybe are less useful when compared to other, newer languages. 06:51:25 "we need to preserve all these good projects, because in the future, someone might pick them up and revive them" my ass 06:51:27 bjorkintosh, useful syntax, that is. 06:51:32 jack_rabbit, they have their niches. 06:51:42 jack_rabbit: CL has had more time to accmulate chaff. #lisp-ers have often sieved through most of it and can recommend good libraries. 06:51:44 Fortran is still very useful for things like Octave. 06:51:48 and those niches have proved difficult to breach. 06:52:20 i estimate that of the 435 "projects" on common-lisp.net, 90% are 100% dead 06:52:39 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 06:52:43 lisp's niche is barely alive. 06:52:48 and yes, i mean AI. 06:52:53 momo-reina [~user@122.179.96.100] has joined #lisp 06:52:54 bjorkintosh: haha 06:53:04 bjorkintosh: who told you that lisp's niche is ai? 06:53:04 bjorkintosh: AI disagrees. 06:53:21 H4ns, no one. just the numerous textbooks which utilized the language. 06:53:27 i know it is a general purpose language. 06:53:33 I find much more support for lisp on the internet than I do for cobol or fortran. 06:53:56 jack_rabbit, that is because those who support cobol and fortran charge an arm and a leg. 06:54:01 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:54:02 bjorkintosh: lisp's niche is the lisp hackers. and there are enough of them to sustain themselves. 06:54:04 no reason for them to make said support free. 06:54:06 jack_rabbit: Fortran has a ton of very awesome and up-to-date books. 06:54:08 both documentation support and cheerleader support. 06:54:18 fortran is still a thing in plenty of places, have you seen the automatic differentiators? 06:54:57 it is very easy to get confused about programming language aliveness if you judge from reading hackernews or stackoverflow. 06:55:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:55:10 that is correct, H4ns. 06:55:36 H4ns, fair enough. 06:55:39 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:18 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:56:21 jack_rabbit, what would you like to be able to do with lisp, which seems so difficult now? 06:56:51 My problem seems to be that from the box I'm in, Lisp seems much more alive than many other languages, and the support/documentation for the libraries seems scattered and unorganized. 06:57:04 hmm. 06:57:07 I did find the gigamonkeys book, which is amazing. 06:57:33 *jack_rabbit* is trying to get out of his box. 06:57:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:57:47 there is a reason emacs keeps getting bigger and bigger. what you want, is probably written in elisp already. 06:57:53 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:58:04 emacs is almost its own OS. 06:58:18 for a good reason. 06:58:19 or or Desktop environment, more accurately. 06:58:31 Emacs is awesome! 06:58:35 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:58:38 I use Emacs for everything. 06:58:45 except IRC, ironically. 06:58:51 you can use it for that too. 06:59:05 bjorkintosh, yep. I just haven't configured it yet. 06:59:23 bjorkintosh, Also on my small laptop screen, it's a pain to keep swapping the buffers. 06:59:30 while I code. 06:59:54 eh? get a second monitor. 07:00:08 correction. procure a second monitor! 07:00:28 I shall procure one! 07:01:02 One which is a widescreen, and rotates 90 degrees for long code page viewing pleasure! 07:01:36 there you go. 07:01:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:02:00 that way, you can spend all your time writing extensions in elisp, and never get around to building a great framework for commonlisp. 07:02:08 and you will finally understand why such things happen. 07:02:24 bjorkintosh, There are just so many small worlds to explore. 07:03:48 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:04:15 -!- momo-reina [~user@122.179.96.100] has left #lisp 07:05:44 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:06:23 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:06:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:06:24 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:09:50 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:09:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:09:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:10:10 -!- superflit [~superflit@209-180-240-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:10:30 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 07:12:13 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:25 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:46 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:03 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:17:20 superflit [~superflit@75-166-75-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:35 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 07:21:09 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:00 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:23:59 Well, I know that with only `program-name' I can safely free the stuff I've allocated. With this version, CLISP stopped crashing, although the code seems messy. 07:24:38 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:24:57 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:15 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 07:26:59 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:27:26 -!- Qinix [~qinix@124.126.227.72] has left #lisp 07:27:27 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:51 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 07:28:01 goodnight. 07:28:41 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:01 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:32:04 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:32:08 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:05 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 07:33:20 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 07:33:33 -!- sabalaba1 [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:f050:6cd6:9a9c:1ce6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:37:58 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 07:38:54 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:30 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 07:41:05 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 07:46:34 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:16 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:48:10 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-138-158.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:58 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 07:56:04 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: die alone] 07:57:39 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:03 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:59:54 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:00:12 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 08:01:00 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:01:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:01:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:01:32 I think I'm starting to get CFFI. Slow and steady, slow and steady. 08:05:19 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06:41 jjkola [~androirc@193-64-21-249-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 08:06:50 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 ASau`` [~user@89-178-169-252.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:09:17 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has left #lisp 08:09:47 z1 [~z3@60.7.32.191] has joined #lisp 08:10:46 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 08:11:46 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-148-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:13:08 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:20:34 -!- penryu [~penryu@unaffiliated/penryu] has left #lisp 08:23:29 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 08:24:10 alama [~textual@stgt-4d0252ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:11 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 08:24:42 luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has joined #lisp 08:24:50 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:36 -!- luck_dog [~asus@220.181.140.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:37:33 ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has joined #lisp 08:38:19 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has left #lisp 08:44:54 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-xehdenfzizgsgdjo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45:03 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.186.85] has joined #lisp 08:45:51 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.125.234.88] has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:50:36 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.131] has joined #lisp 08:54:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.131] has quit [Changing host] 08:54:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:58:07 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dlolloxqfxeqoqzi] has joined #lisp 08:59:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 09:00:10 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:00:23 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 09:01:38 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-134-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:56 didi: you can use swig to generate cffi bindings from C headers. google for swig cffi. 09:04:06 agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:16 pjb: I will, thanks. 09:06:06 hi all, so for testing procedural code, that is, with no objects to override, is it viable to rebind functions (eg. using setf fdefinition) during a test (assuming no inlining and so on)? and are therey testing libs which do this already? 09:06:20 pkhuong: by "inactive libraries", you mean stable, refined, useful and well debugged libraries, right? 09:06:57 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 09:07:06 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:07:13 ferada: that, or read those symbol in a different package. 09:07:42 Instead of (defpackage :your-package (:use :cl :somelib)) do (defpackage :your-package (:use :cl :somelib-stub)) 09:07:58 and define those stub functions in somelib-stub instead of somelib. 09:09:33 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-115-81.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:10:21 ferada: also, while you could break an image with (setf fdefinition), you can always reboot from a clean image, so don't be afraid to go ahead. 09:10:21 pjb: mhm, thats an idea, but i can't just read a source file when it has in-package at the start .. 09:10:43 Yes, you can. See IBCL. 09:10:51 As long as it doesn't have cl:in-package. 09:11:35 Also, with the stepper, I've noted one more reason why #'f is bad vs. (function f). In the later case, it may be a different operator than cl:function, while in the former case that would require a different reader macro. 09:13:03 -!- didi [~user@177.65.231.116] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:15:18 pjb: okay thanks, i'll see how this goes 09:17:41 lain__ [~lain@e178079096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:18:04 DATE;ELIGIBLE;AUDIT;NEW;NEW-NO-OTHER-PLAN;NEW-FROM-PLAN-1G;NEW-FROM-PLAN-1M;TERM;TERM-NO-REASON;TERM-03;TERM-07;TERM-22;TERM-BY-ABSENCE 09:18:04 2012-03-01;591886;0;0;591886;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0 09:18:04 2012-04-01;615752;525485;0;83098;4523;2646;0;1;0;0;66401;66401 09:18:04 2012-05-01;628363;574030;0;52178;1053;1102;0;4404;0;37319;0;41722 09:18:07 2012-06-01;657773;586285;0;69755;794;939;0;5422;0;36657;0;42078 09:18:12 2012-07-01;679988;612719;0;65661;604;1004;0;4919;0;40136;0;45054 09:18:15 fuck 09:18:20 *H4ns* puts on the "paste idiot" hat 09:19:51 -!- Guest312` [~user@xdsl-78-35-169-23.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:21:14 mhm 09:21:45 -!- jjkola [~androirc@193-64-21-249-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 09:22:42 i think i need a clipboard timeout 09:23:10 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:29:37 wuhen [~wuhen86@218.206.231.154] has joined #lisp 09:30:26 -!- wuhen [~wuhen86@218.206.231.154] has quit [Client Quit] 09:30:35 http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lmeyerov/projects/socioplt/papers/icse13.pdf says that language popularity is an exponential. Therefore lisp should eventually win over. 09:31:13 H4ns: once upon a time I had a command that would lisppaste when you yanked too much in an erc channel. It bitrot however. 09:31:33 I'm not in favor of "active libraries". 09:31:40 wuhen [~wuhen86@218.206.231.154] has joined #lisp 09:31:45 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:31:59 The punishment for those are bitrotten code. 09:35:19 pjb, I note that that survey talks about Sourceforge. I imagine that that might cause biases between the sorts of developers who use sf vs other services like github and bitbucket 09:35:40 If there are any distinctions between those groups, the data might be problematic 09:35:43 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:41 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 09:44:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:44:35 hello 09:45:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:45:52 what's the current hotness for lisp web apps? 09:46:26 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:41 I don't know. How "hot" is http://www.google.com/flights/ ? 09:47:16 pjb: no no, not like that 09:47:16 clack 09:47:40 Haven't they rewritten that in C++ yet? :) 09:47:40 mstevens: hunchentoot? 09:48:42 That's a web server though, isn't it? 09:48:58 pjb: looks more promising 09:49:09 Isn't web apps frameworks and stuff like rails 09:49:22 flights from are not currently supported 09:49:29 *Cymew* realizes me might have gotten caught in a buzzword quagmire 09:49:33 Cymew: there is nothing that i'd call "hot" 09:49:36 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:49:58 Not that I knew either, really, actually... 09:50:18 Cymew: but part of it is that before you've grasped a frameworks' way of doing thing, you've rolled your own thing in lisp. 09:50:28 Cymew: well maybe, I was just sort of vaguely after something that'll connect lisp and web pages, so that loops promising 09:50:33 (that=hunchentoot) 09:50:38 pjb: is there any indication that lisp has become more popular over the last 10 years? :) 09:50:40 Give it a go 09:50:53 Cymew: the other part of it, of course, is that the lack of a "hot framework" is the reason why beginners are not dragged into lisp in the first place. 09:50:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:50:58 sytse: yes. 09:51:01 H4ns: That or started drinking more seriously... 09:51:18 sytse: that said, nobody here care about lisp popularity or lack thereof. 09:51:21 Cymew: or use something "sensible", like rails :) 09:51:28 >( 09:51:32 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:33 :) 09:51:47 Cymew: if you go that route, don't forget to write a blog post on how bad lisp has treated you :) 09:51:54 Hehe 09:52:06 H4ns: perhaps we could have a nice web framework library in quicklisp. That'd be just an asdf depending on hunchentoot and some html generation library. 09:52:56 pjb: the hard part is not slamming together the libraries, the hard part is writing a book "the lisp way" and then holding up to the "this is the only way" long enough for enough noobs to jump the bandwagon. 09:53:13 pjb: i guess you'd have no problems with the second part, so go for the first :) 09:53:40 pjb: well, I do feel it's nice to have a growing community, that could help the community efforts (esp in the library department, in which CL is still a bit lacking I believe) 09:54:01 sytse: then write the missing libraries. 09:54:13 Personnaly, I'd have a hard time finding an empty library niche. 09:54:14 yes, obviously, but noone can do that on his own 09:54:48 pjb: no. every niche is filled with crap. 09:54:54 pjb: some contain gems, too. 09:55:07 *mstevens* was in a vaguely lispy mood so I thought I'd have another go at learning it 09:55:16 exactly H4ns 09:55:30 mstevens: by all means do! i'm not trying to be negative, just realistic :) 09:55:47 H4ns: I found a fair bit of the negativity last time I had a go :) 09:55:56 H4ns: yeah, right, you should blog about that: lisp libraries are crap. 09:56:17 pjb: but why? i love lisp, but i hate propaganda 09:56:23 is pcl still the hotness when it comes to books? 09:56:38 also, H4ns did not say 'lisp libraries are crap', on the contrary 09:56:41 H4ns: Because this is dumb. Lisp code is of the highest quality compared to other programming languages. 09:56:41 pjb: like "we got libraries for everything". true, if incomplete, undocumented, non-working counts into the "got" 09:58:22 mstevens: yes, although land of lisp is also a pretty fun book. Reading PCL is still obligatory though. 09:58:23 *sytse* is halfway through a good getopt library with gnu-like (argp-like) features btw, could be that I finish that later this year 09:58:47 sytse: that'll only be the fourth getopt lisp library 09:58:57 no, the first that's actually *useable* at all 09:59:14 By the way, C's getopt is not usable either. 09:59:39 IIRC the problems I found last time were the ancientness of common lisp, the state of libraries, and the lisp community (sorry!) 09:59:40 sytse: you see? this persons "usable" is the next persons "crap", and this is worse in lisp than in other languages because lisp is multi-paradigm. 10:00:04 Oh, enough of that crap. 10:00:05 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 10:00:22 pjb: at least it is theoretically *possible* to write a good option parser with gnu getopt, this cannot be said about the extant libraries in CL 10:01:03 mstevens: instead of looking for the problems, you need to be looking at how lisp is great. and if you don't, then use something else. 10:01:14 yep. 10:01:16 mstevens: ancientness is a feature. In a way, the same is true for the community(we need to scare away the hipsters :) 10:02:04 pavelpenev: I think it was "files" being strange and nonstandard that discouraged me in particular 10:02:37 mstevens: you mean pathnames? Yes, they are a bit archaic, but in practice, not a problem. 10:02:58 and they are standard, just not the unix standard :) 10:03:14 where unix standard is "sequience of bytes" 10:03:53 if you can't open a file, because the filename wasn't encoded properly, thats very annoying 10:04:16 other than that merge-pathnames is gold 10:04:31 In terms of community, I remember #lisp trying to tell me I was insane for wanting to run my program from the command line rather than opening a repl and running (start-it-all) or something. 10:05:08 and that's the only good thing about microsoft crap I know: they did manage to postulate utf-16 encoding for filenames.. 10:05:34 -!- wuhen [~wuhen86@218.206.231.154] has quit [] 10:08:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.240] has joined #lisp 10:08:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.240] has quit [Changing host] 10:08:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:09:30 sytse: because UCS-2, later UF-16 is NT's internal encoding 10:10:05 "classic" strings have to be converted once they go into "NT land" 10:10:42 so of course NTFS includes Unicode-based FILE "name" attribute... ergh. NTFS terms are kinda weird, sorry 10:11:23 *mstevens* experimentally installs quicklisp 10:11:24 p_l: I know, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it's good. 10:12:09 sytse: I prefer Plan 9's "UTF-8 is the only accepted encoding". Windows allowed way too much cruft in name of backwards compatibility into system directly 10:12:40 obviously all of the technical details about just about all of it are repulsive on windows, duh. 10:12:56 and yes, plan 9 does it better 10:13:31 I was just naming the one tiny thing I could think of that's good about windows nt ;-) 10:13:47 luck_dog [~asus@61.50.139.2] has joined #lisp 10:14:06 sytse: there's quite a lot, but it's IMHO fragmented and boggled down under crap (or sometimes misconfigured by default, because if enabled, consumers complain) 10:15:16 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 10:15:22 (defun hello-world () (format t "hello world")) 10:16:54 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:19:15 hmm, I tried to install slime, but it doesn't seem to be able to eval anything, which I'm sure is an important feature 10:19:38 mstevens: probably missed (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) ? 10:20:24 mstevens: you may want to follow a short tutorial like this: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 10:20:26 I have (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el")) 10:21:17 And that seems to be loading fine 10:21:50 H4ns: oh, that's much more functional 10:22:12 I'd forgotten the M-x slime 10:22:18 I assumed I could just open a lisp file 10:22:46 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 10:22:52 mstevens: stop assuming for a while 10:24:10 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:31:42 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@37.99.77.18] has joined #lisp 10:31:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:33:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.124] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.124] has quit [Changing host] 10:33:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:33:34 saschakb_ 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[~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:32:47 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.108.77] has joined #lisp 11:34:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-138-158.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:39:18 Is there anything special needed to integrate quicklisp and asdf? If you've installed something with quicklisp, can you forever after use it as a dependency in asdf definitions? 11:39:18 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has joined #lisp 11:39:53 quicklisp uses asdf 11:40:34 Guess I'm unclear if quicklisp maintains a state of installed systems for future invocations. 11:41:06 i shouldn't to worry about anything 11:41:11 shouldn't have 11:41:16 bah 11:41:18 s/i/you/ 11:42:05 just make sure that quicklisp is loaded in your init file 11:42:14 So, (ql:quickload "spatial-trees"), and in the future I'm good? 11:42:22 yes 11:42:29 Very nice. 11:42:47 *moore33* pokes Xach. 11:43:51 even better, if you create a system that depends on spatial-trees and other libraries, and you quickload it, it will load all the missing dependencies 11:44:13 kmee: Nice! 11:49:49 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Quit: none] 11:51:20 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 11:51:21 -!- chenbing [~user@223.166.94.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:55 chenbing [~user@112.65.34.47] has joined #lisp 11:55:57 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-128-137.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:29 -!- lain__ [~lain@e178079096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:17 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:08 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:04 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:13:31 ahoy moore33 12:13:44 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:14:05 Xach: I'm sure this is old news, but quicklisp is very cool. It's making it easier for me to do some mcclim hacking. 12:14:21 my worst fears realized! 12:14:33 *Xach* hoped quicklisp would be used only for good 12:14:44 bbl; lunch time 12:15:19 Xach: CLIM is not good, then? 12:17:14 It is wicked 12:19:40 It is good. It only needs some rejuvenation. We need more lispers working on it. 12:19:40 wicked cool, definitely (: 12:23:13 it would have been nice! 12:24:29 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:26:21 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 12:26:45 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest75729 12:27:52 -!- Guest75729 is now known as PuercoPop420 12:28:29 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:31:01 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:31:49 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:32:02 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.85] has joined #lisp 12:32:52 naryl: trivial-irc has been updated in its main bit 12:33:31 Can you build it now? 12:33:43 yes, builds fine 12:33:54 naryl: he finally applied the pull request from last year 12:33:57 Anyway you could contact karvus about further problems. 12:34:19 right, mine one :D 12:34:33 *Xach* feels the warm glow of new and updated libraries 12:34:43 Sven van C10e said he will move his s-* libraries to github 12:34:59 (he also said he doesn't do cl any more, just pharo smalltalk, but i'll take it anyway) 12:36:13 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:37:38 Maybe he could do an s-exp aware diff and VCS inspired by Pharo? :) 12:39:24 My earlier dreams about such system have been broken by... reader macros. 12:40:05 -!- theos is now known as Guest42013 12:40:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:40:51 -!- Guest42013 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:41:16 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:36 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:12 chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:42:39 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:43:50 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:00 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:49:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:51:05 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:26 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:29 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.124] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.124] has quit [Changing host] 12:54:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:57:30 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:57:55 luck_dog [~asus@61.50.139.4] has joined #lisp 12:58:09 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.104.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:21 hey antifuchs 13:03:19 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:03:45 -!- ogamita is now known as pjb 13:03:46 naryl: reader macros break a lot of dreams 13:04:06 like "i could write this refactoring tool for cl" 13:04:16 You can also just say no to reader macros. 13:04:25 pjb: like #+ 13:04:27 pjb: certainly. i don't use them. 13:04:45 After all, AFAIK, reader macros were only introduced as a mean to implement compatibility with older lisps. 13:04:48 -!- PuercoPop420 is now known as PuercoPop 13:05:09 H4ns: do you use (? 13:05:13 The standard lisp syntax has just been generalized under reader macros. So you're always use them. 13:05:15 pjb: they have involved into something that everyone feels like using in ther lisp learning experience. 13:05:34 refactoring tools require rigid source code convention structure, written in stone 13:05:37 On the other hand, I'm very happy with my #\[ reader macro to read Objective-CL code. 13:05:44 H4ns: albeit true, perhaps it's sane for some refactoring tools to come with warnings like "reader macros not supported", a best effort is often better than no effort at all 13:06:01 Including #' ? 13:06:37 if java allowed multiple top level classes per file, files for package could be anywhere instead of "dotted package path -> directory structure", Eclipse refactoring would not be possible 13:06:45 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:07 Exactly: a lisp IDE or project manager can impose a file management scheme. 13:07:21 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.60] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:07:24 Or said otherwise, can relieve the programmer from the bother of managing source files. 13:07:57 maxm: some goes for rails. part of why it was relatively easy to generate code was because the format was so rigid. you knew it would fail on edge cases, but in general it was good enough. still, i don't see why a sufficiently smart system couldn't work around it. (also, lisp macro's are still a lot simpler on the mind) 13:08:03 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:08:16 s/some/same/ 13:08:33 ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:35 Now, given that reader macros exist and are fundamental to CL syntax, the conclusion is that you need to keep in a CL IDE, text snippets as source code instead of sexps. (or both). But otherwise it's rather as easy to deal with them than without. 13:10:59 pjb: there's no real reason why the reader macro couldn't be an s-expression stating that there's a reader macro occuring on the contained string. perhaps that could work from a refactoring pov. either case, good support for refactoring would require a decent code-walker anyways. 13:11:04 pjb: You can pack reader macros (and comments) into some don't look inside object and store only sexps. The contents of these objects are print out without change and refactoring tools... will have to assume they are side-effect free and move them around witout looking inside. 13:11:33 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 13:11:57 (That's what I wanted to did for my graduation project but due to time constraints I didn't implement it) 13:12:16 s/did/do/ 13:12:45 And reader macros were the only problem with storing code as s-exps. 13:14:20 kanru [~kanru@014136144056.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:25 -!- mskou72 [~mskou72@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:54 -!- kanru [~kanru@014136144056.ctinets.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:24:05 madnificent: there's one problem however: reader macros can read 0 expression. 13:24:47 So: (defun (\;-comment "Hi this is a function") fun (\#\|-comment "Hi another comment") (a b) (+ a b)) 13:25:08 that means that such sexps cannot be processed by the normal CL:EVAL or CL:COMPILE. 13:25:11 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:25:39 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 13:26:03 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:26:32 naryl: yes, that's what I mean. You have to keep around text source. You can also keep around sexp source, but since you can just read the text source again. Also notice that keeping sexp-source is problematic for closures: (let ((a 1)) (defun s (v) (setf a v)) (defun g () a)) 13:27:03 -!- alama [~textual@stgt-4d0252ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:27:19 eval-when and other toplevel-preserving forms (progn, etc and macros expanding to them), also require a wider scope sexp. 13:27:32 pjb: oh yeah, that's certainly true. it was merely for allowing the refactoring tools to work around them. working with them seems to be rather complex. 13:27:57 If you keep text chunks as source, that can be made to work seamlessly. 13:28:14 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 13:28:46 Furthermore, it may be easier to edit: you can easily split or write several functions at once, and when processed by the IDE, each toplevel form is separated into a different text chunk, as source for zero or more lisp objects. 13:28:52 perhaps you can extend the AST with a dual representation indicating the chunks of source-code they match with. that way you know what you need to replace where when manipulating the tree. 13:29:02 (and obviously, it helps with the s-expressions) 13:29:35 In my view, you need to keep and manage the text chunks in a separate data structure, with references between it and lisp objects. 13:30:21 kanru [~kanru@014136144056.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:26 See my notes about in: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/lisp/ibcl-notes.txt 13:31:21 -!- Guest68848 [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-isbluugtipjwanxs] has quit [] 13:32:04 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuapjqvziwwouwoe] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 -!- denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuapjqvziwwouwoe] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:09 denysonique [u484@unaffiliated/dennisonicc] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 -!- denysonique [u484@unaffiliated/dennisonicc] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:09 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuapjqvziwwouwoe] has 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14:09:19 luck_dog [~asus@61.50.139.4] has joined #lisp 14:12:54 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-189-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:15:38 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:59 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:27 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:21:42 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.197.210] has joined #lisp 14:22:27 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:30 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 14:23:30 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 14:24:03 (morning 'lisp) 14:24:12 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 14:25:23 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 14:25:47 -!- PuercoPop is now known as Guest54844 14:25:49 maxm: that must be why the first refactoring browser was written for a file-less environment. 14:26:18 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.63.218] has joined #lisp 14:27:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.63.218] has quit [Changing host] 14:27:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 -!- Guest54844 is now known as PuercoPop 14:30:35 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 14:31:25 oskarth [~Adium@ool-43569803.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 glistle [~glistle@dsl-066-037-093-089.citizip.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:01 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:33:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:34:10 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:36 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:42 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 14:42:34 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[~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 15:46:02 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:47:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.2] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.2] has quit [Changing host] 15:48:54 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:50:22 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.104.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:00 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:51:03 Why does CFFI manual use a new class called `easy-handle' instead of adding the `pointer', `error-buffer' and `c-strings' into `easy-handle-type'? The manuals says `define-foreign-type' is a thin wrapper around `defclass'. 15:51:08 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 15:51:45 It seems to use this fact while defining `my-string-type' later. 15:52:33 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-374-118.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:56:22 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:59:23 vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 -!- brown` [user@nat/google/x-ddrqfvnajegzsfaf] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:01:02 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:01:41 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:56 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:51 brown` [user@nat/google/x-qlgizrfwkumiiqth] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:06:13 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:05 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:09:50 -!- kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 16:15:49 ocmsRzr [~user@152.3.68.83] has joined #lisp 16:16:24 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:17:49 caoliver [~chatzilla@24-236-215-112.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:18:03 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:18:17 -!- wibble37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:36 Greets! I was reading over the usual comp lang feeds today, and diddled a bit with D. Fontain's code. I ran into an oddity, and not being an X86 guru, I've no idea why the lisp code is slower than the C code. 16:21:34 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 16:22:08 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-252-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 http://sprunge.us/YFVK 16:22:42 -!- ykm [~yash@124.155.255.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:22:43 the author's nick here is "dim" 16:23:58 bet pkhuong could answer that question. 16:24:03 not to put him on the spot or anything. 16:24:03 Ok. Still, after replacing the and with a simple (the fixnum...) the loop is basically the same in the C as the lisp, but the C is eight times as fast on my C2D under 64bit linux. 16:24:17 I'd expect he would. 16:25:03 Not that any of this is super super important, but I found it surprising. 16:25:10 ykm [~yash@124.155.255.221] has joined #lisp 16:26:18 Fade: did anyone make a video of Reti's talk? 16:26:52 I am not Fare. ;) 16:27:15 Err... sorry. Well now you know what shoe size my mouth is. 16:27:35 caoliver: well, as i told yesterday, lisp code and c code is completely wrong in that post 16:27:37 two characters aren't enough for tab-complete in this namespace. :) 16:27:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:08 sum of integers from 0 to (expt 10 10) is 66 bits, does not fit into 64-bit 16:28:42 stassats: Yes indeed. Also, that C snippet uses 32bit ints, so of course it's faster. (Derp derp derp!) 16:28:50 the code just overflows the int (sic, int, not even a unsigned long), and the fixnum declaration for CCL makes it overflow it too 16:29:00 so, only python makes a fare effort at adding bignums 16:29:19 fair 16:29:30 Yeah. SBCL blows chunks, and for stupid grins I turned safety off. 16:29:42 so, the whole post is misinformation 16:30:04 Still, I'm surprised that four instruction loop seems so different between the two. 16:30:35 stassats: I agree with you, but it was a morning's play. 16:31:55 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32:26 what if your compiler transformed that code into (/ (* max (1+ max)) 2), would it be fair? 16:32:46 hm... 16:33:02 stassats: Would you do it for SBCL's loop? :] 16:33:04 *pavelpenev* thinks the best way to make lisp fast is to figure out how to avoid having to compute at all. Or as Erik Naggum puts it: "what are you doing with that 20,000×20,000 16:33:05 double-precision floating point matrix you say you need to invert _today_?" 16:33:09 please? :] 16:33:42 naryl: it'd be useless 16:33:45 The post was about microoptimizing naive algos. 16:34:36 stassats: But then you can say that SBCL does *a few* optimizations NO OTHER LANGUAGE DOES! 16:34:46 And he got several things wrong, but I'm just curious about the difference I'm seeing. (...q vs ... isn't it, nor is the alignment) 16:34:48 Just for posts like the discussed one. 16:35:00 caoliver: well, it's not macro op fusion... both loops are so tiny that they're affected by random changes. 16:35:18 ISTM it should fit in the loop cache, but who knows? 16:35:40 I'd expect over (expt 10 10) iters, that would get lost in the underflow. 16:36:40 Would the register choice make any diff? It's been a while since I though seriously about x86 arch, but the accum use to perform significantly different. 16:37:15 you can try measuring (expt 10 9), it fits into 62 bits 16:37:38 caoliver: mostly, if you want to compare lisp to C, you have to know C. 16:38:24 That means, int a=b+c;/*in C*/ <=> (setf a (logand #xffffffff (+ (logand #xffffffff b) (logand #xffffffff c)))) 16:38:52 s/int/unsigned int/ 16:38:57 Most lisp compilers will generate the same code as for C when you do that. 16:39:09 char = (signed-byte 8), not character, etc. 16:39:15 Did you look at the sprunge? 16:39:37 I only saw x86 assembler, which I don't read. Try again with C and lisp. 16:41:10 caoliver: more information at http://cliki.net/Performance 16:41:37 caoliver: do you get the same result? Are you actually performing the same number of iterations? 16:42:22 That's a very good question. 16:42:50 I'm trying to think of a was to find that out. I'm guessing perhaps not. 16:43:06 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:43:13 ... print it. 16:43:15 s/was/way/ 16:44:46 naryl: do other languages optimize (expt -1 x) into (- 1 (* 2 (logand 1 x)))? 16:44:55 -!- ykm [~yash@124.155.255.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:45:02 for instance, the original post is completely bugged: 10^10 overflows a 32 bit int, so it's actually doing 1410065408 iterations. 16:45:02 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:45:39 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:46:01 the only correct and fair code there is in python 16:47:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:49 francogrex [~user@109.130.35.169] has joined #lisp 16:48:09 (herpderp-p :caoliver) => t 16:49:03 I forgot to include in my C prog, and atol() was being treated as an 32bit int. Now the lisp and C take the same time. 16:49:25 pkhuong: Thanks! 16:49:27 it's important to measure the same things when doing silly benchmarks 16:49:39 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:50 *caoliver* hangs head in shame. 16:53:44 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:55:24 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 16:56:27 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:24 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57:37 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb bugfix] 16:58:15 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 16:59:11 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 To be blunt, I realized the OP had multiple problems with his code, but I was trying to figure out what he was trying to do. 17:00:52 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 17:00:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 17:00:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:01:04 BTW: I don't read python. 17:01:40 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:02:53 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:55 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-134-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07:54 *jasom* tried again yesterday to get a gui toolkit other than ltk to work and again gave up after a few hours 17:08:06 jasom: what os? 17:08:13 stassats: linux 64-bit 17:08:16 good 17:08:20 have you tried commonqt? 17:08:27 I have not 17:08:37 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 17:08:41 you should! 17:09:18 I didn't even look at qt bindings since most FFI to C++ is usually painful 17:10:07 jasom: it's ok, someone else endured that particular pain for Qt. 17:10:23 jasom: it works around it by serializing some Qt-specific patterns 17:10:24 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:50 commonqt works with ecl here 17:10:56 called eql 17:11:00 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.35.169] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:11:01 pretty good 17:11:08 hmmm 17:11:09 jasom: CommonQT in exchange gets a way to do string lookups of Qt symbols 17:11:14 wbooze: EQL is not CommonQT 17:11:15 jasom: if you're on debian, install libsmokeqt4-dev qt4-qmake libqt4-dev 17:11:15 didn't try it with sbcl or cmucl yet 17:11:27 cmucl? 17:11:31 wbooze: EQL is based on inline C++ 17:11:34 p_l: what is it then ? 17:11:38 aah 17:11:48 but it uses qt anyway..... 17:12:13 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:12:15 -!- ghast [~user@host248.200-45-155.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:36 jasom: and commonqt from quicklisp, and you're set 17:12:45 i just find the table cells double click behaviour odd..... 17:12:54 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:13:06 stassats: is there a demo, or an application I can poke around in for it? 17:14:00 answer_421 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 17:14:06 jasom: there's a demo included 17:14:10 As a sometimes squeaker, I wonder: has anyone thought about using SDL and running a complete genera style dev environment from within CCL or SBCL rather than using Slime from outside? 17:14:18 jasom: load qt-tutorial 17:14:32 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:44 and then (qt-tutorial-14:main) 17:16:14 caoliver: there's Climacs and Hemlock 17:16:14 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 well this is my beirc client i connected with.... 17:16:55 uses mcclim 17:17:03 caoliver: running the editor in the same image is prone to crashing the whole thing 17:17:16 and climacs is an emacs like editor written in common-lisp which uses mcclim too 17:17:23 haha mcclim is the one I tried to get working yesterday 17:17:26 stassats: Yes you can saw off the branch you're standing on, so don't do that. 17:17:38 i got it running too, but some features and keybindings are annoying... 17:17:50 caoliver: don't do what? 17:18:36 run into a mistake with safety 0? bogus ffi? heap exhaustion? bug in an implementation? 17:18:43 stassats: Don't do crashy things with your image. It's pretty easy to bring Genera down as well. 17:19:01 how can i absolve myself from such things? tell me a secret 17:19:09 Ah yes, crash-never programming 17:19:36 stassats: (declaim (optimize (space 0) (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) 17:19:46 and don't use CFFI. 17:19:52 stassats: process isolation. 17:20:07 pjb: and don't run into any bugs in your lisp implementation 17:20:36 Yes. 17:20:49 or exhaust your heap, or your program stack or integer overflow 17:20:52 pkhuong: well, i propose to keep the existing architecture, cl-slime in different process communicating over network 17:20:53 But I must say, nowadays CL implementations are rather bug free. 17:21:18 pjb: you are not doing anything interesting then 17:21:20 Some implementation even handle stack exhaustion nicely. 17:25:24 That you can die with safety 0 or calling out to an FFI isn't odd. Those are DANGEROUS actions. 17:26:39 so, just let it run in a separate process and crash however many times it want 17:27:00 Sort of Erlang-ish, but there you go. 17:27:37 Still, I'd like an image I can live in much like Genera or Smalltalk. 17:27:41 and i oftentimes restart the image to get a fresh environment 17:27:52 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-201-114.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:17 I try to get away from the toss it over a cliff and start again philosph. 17:28:25 i see no benefits in running an editor inside the same image 17:28:50 You hack the editor (careful) from within the editor. 17:28:53 caoliver: i try to get things done fast and effectively 17:29:01 s/careful/carefully/ 17:29:18 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-75-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:29:18 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 17:30:14 I make the assumption and anything is likely to need tweeking, and I'd like to keep the knowledge base to do so as small as possible. 17:31:01 smalltalk tools in smalltalk. Multiple images in case I get stupid. 17:31:02 how is the air in your ivory tower? 17:31:12 Well oxygenated. 17:31:19 ;-P 17:32:53 Look. In the last 15 years or so, the desire to monetize the i'net has left us maintaining much tech in the worst of taste. Maybe we can in our not-so-copious spare time strive for a better end. 17:33:16 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:39 doing impractical things for philosophical reasons doesn't smell like a better end 17:35:29 vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:37 vis. Alan Kay on instrumental vs. non-instumental learning and the value thereof. 17:37:32 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:43 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:37:45 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 17:37:48 jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 17:38:26 samebchase [samuel@pi.nipl.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 Gotta go. Thanks for all the help folk. 'later. 17:39:36 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 17:39:44 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:45 -!- caoliver [~chatzilla@24-236-215-112.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120601045813]] 17:42:30 stassats: An s-exp or text editor in the separate process is ok. An IDE (like SLIME) is less than practical though. IMO. 17:43:03 We already run the compiler, debugger, half of the IDE and the software being developed in the same process. 17:44:15 if it cannot run in the same process, something is wrong in the design. you shouldn't want to run it on a production server, but during development, i don't smell anything fishy 17:45:00 naryl: neither of which matter for the user if they crash and are restarted 17:46:04 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 having to lose all the open files, context, and so on, after crashing is what's annoying 17:46:29 stassats: If the editor crashes and restarts it will matter whether it's in the same process or not. 17:46:58 the editor doesn't need to crash 17:48:00 you don't modify the code of the editor when you develop third party programs, it will be well tested and debugged 17:48:26 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 17:49:22 So it doesn't matter if it's in the same process or not. 17:49:36 Ah, I'm spoiled by Erlang. 17:49:46 what? man, i'm not gonna repeat everything for the second time! 17:49:57 stassats: third party can take the editor with it. 17:50:05 *third party program 17:50:07 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 17:50:15 it can't, it runs in an another process 17:50:26 If it runs in the same process. 17:50:38 that's why you don't run it in the same process 17:50:58 After a few monts of Erlang I forgot that a module can crash a completely unrelated another one. :D 17:51:24 It actually happened to Erlang. Once. Out of memory. 17:51:26 processes are such modules 17:51:41 for CL and most other languages. 17:52:13 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:54:41 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:44 and besides, there are just no benefits for running the development image and the editor in the same image 17:55:24 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:57:14 minion: memo for caoliver: have a look at ibcl http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 17:57:14 Remembered. I'll tell caoliver when he/she/it next speaks. 17:58:24 pjb: Do you agree that there are no benefits? 17:58:37 I can think of a few but stassats is too intimidating :) 18:01:36 anvandare [~anvandare@ip-83-134-157-138.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 18:01:41 naryl: so, what are they? 18:01:47 let's debunk them! 18:02:37 VeganRhino [~quassel@149-169-248-84.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:03:37 -!- jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo_] 18:03:47 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03:50 (granted there should be functionality to modify the editor itself) 18:04:14 naryl: the notion of process has been introduced on unix because it was programmed in C. It is useless when you write your system and tools as well as your programs in programming languages with controlled environments. 18:05:29 . o O ( What could go wrong if an updating-output record never updates? ) 18:05:37 Now, you can have the editor separate from the program process, thanks to swank/slime, but having the editor not written in Common Lisp is a major inconvenience. Notably to analyze reader macros, but also macros, you need to execute the program in the editor. 18:06:22 execute malicious code just by opening a file? great 18:06:29 naryl: I wrote a CL reader and a CL package system to be able to read CL source files without interning symbols, ie. without loading the program, but this doesn't work in practice because of reader macros. 18:06:42 stassats: anyways, you can do that in emacs with file local variables. 18:07:19 pjb: it asks you whether you want to apply them 18:07:40 stassats: and the system asks you whether you want to load a file or do something else. 18:07:43 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:07:49 stassats: Well, there was another option for my graduation project's architecture. Which was running the development system and all tools in second lisp-process. It controlls the s-exps and the first one executes the code. But this approach would bring problems with side-effectey macros in addition to all the problems with reader-macros I already had. 18:08:16 Indeed, you still need to load a part or the program, sometimes sizeable. 18:09:55 naryl: what problem with macros? you can execute and query them in the executor process 18:10:39 you may want to macroexpand the macros to identify the various kind of arguments, what's data, what's code, so that you can colorize and indent them adequately. 18:10:42 and the authors of macros with side-effects should be ostracized 18:11:11 pjb: well, macroexpand them in an another process, what's the problem? 18:11:12 Perhaps, but it is often nice to write macro with compilation environment side effects. 18:11:31 stassats: it's more complex, for nothing: again, we're not speaking of C. 18:12:07 more complpex? instead of EVAL you have REMOTE-EVAL? 18:12:30 Have a look at swank/slime I call that more complex. 18:12:53 pjb: compilation environment side effects should happen in the macro expansion, not the macro code... Not that I necessarily agree that the editor should be in a seperate process. 18:13:14 i had a look at swank/slime, it's not more complex 18:13:47 stassats: I think it takes three stack frames to remote-eval. Are they empty? 18:13:56 moore33: the macro expansion never has any compilation environment effects! By definition, it can only have run-time effects! 18:14:09 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:21 naryl: i don't understand the question 18:14:27 nm 18:15:05 pjb: uh... (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)). Macroexpand defun sometime. 18:15:24 there's no conceptual complexity when evaluating your code locally or remotely, yes, the remote evaluator should be first written, but it's trivial and needs to be done anyhow, to connect to truly remote environments 18:15:55 moore33: of course, there's also eval-when which allows random effects at any time you want. 18:16:47 stassats: again, that serves no purpose: when you have a bug in your program, it signals a condition and that's it: there's no consequence for the editor functions. 18:16:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:17:40 this is pointless, you're talking about some theoretical magically ideal code, i'm talking about real world experience 18:17:40 Would Emacs be an example of this "editor and program in the same process" you are talking about? 18:18:03 didi: Yup. 18:18:13 Hum... I kinda love that. 18:18:26 didi: yes, emacs lisp doesn't have unsafe features and doesn't have ffi 18:18:39 I see. 18:19:17 i crash my CL implementation irrevocably all the time 18:19:43 how do you manage that? 18:19:50 stassats: last time I had a lisp implementation crash on me, it was at least 7 years ago, for a bug in clisp. 18:20:53 sbcl save-lisp-and-die is much more inconvenient than the possibility of a crash of a CL implementation. 18:20:55 stassats: You would assert that you can never get emacs into a state where it freezes or is otherwise unusable? 18:21:05 moore33: far less often 18:21:06 moore33: never. 18:21:18 heh, i've had 1.0.58 exploding on me, had to go back to 1.0.57 18:21:23 At least less often than you have to reboot linux to install new versions of the kernel or new drivers. 18:21:33 pjb: i've had emacs process just die on me 18:21:40 poof, and it's gone 18:22:01 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:22:04 moore33: but i don't write in emacs lisp that much 18:22:17 jdz: It does not "die". It just leave you to do its own things. 18:22:52 s/leave/leaves 18:23:01 anvandare: as i said previously "run into a mistake with safety 0? bogus ffi? heap exhaustion? bug in an implementation?" 18:23:09 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:23:54 I have emacs instances with an uptime close to 690 days. 18:24:46 used daily? 18:24:48 stassats: never run with safety 0. Avoid ffi like the plague. Don't write scheme code in CL. Use a stable implementation. 18:25:03 pjb: don't give bad advice? 18:25:05 stassats: not used daily, but often enough. 18:25:06 pjb: and get nothing done 18:25:07 ghast [~user@host86.190-230-14.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:25:25 oGMo: except reimplement stuff that's already done 18:25:29 oGMo: well, http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago is done like that. That must be nothing. 18:26:36 billstclair [~billstcla@68.237.143.182] has joined #lisp 18:26:37 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@68.237.143.182] has quit [Changing host] 18:26:37 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:26:53 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:34 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:28:23 If your Lisp has a good chance of crashing, due to your own efforts or its instability, then of course it's no fun to run the editor in that image. Not everyone is faced with that situation. 18:28:32 so, you're advocating limiting the amount of things that can be done in CL just because you are afraid of crashing? 18:28:46 i'm not afraid of crashing, but i don't want it to harm me 18:28:49 I'm advocating controled environment. 18:29:01 Even with separate processes it's no fun crashing! 18:29:22 ghast` [~user@host83.190-30-155.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:29:34 It's a silly solution (well it may have been practical when writing unix on a PDP-7, but it's ridiculous nowadays). 18:29:55 moore33: you make it sound like running separate process is excruciatingly painful 18:30:08 processes 18:30:27 Not excruciatingly, but it's painful. 18:30:33 It's much nicer to work inside emacs. 18:30:43 if you're pjb 18:30:46 not everyone is pjb 18:30:49 If it wasn't we'd be using vim, sed and awk, instead of emacs. 18:30:55 -!- ghast [~user@host86.190-230-14.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:31:04 stassats: are you a vim user? 18:31:19 another nonsensical question? 18:31:24 heh 18:31:41 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 18:31:41 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:31:53 this discussion is pointless 18:32:08 pjb: If you're using vim you don't need sed and awk. 18:32:09 stassats: you should read the Unix Hater Handbook. 18:32:23 stassats: I don't really care very much. I was involved with some of the climacs effort. I also think slime has done an impressive job emulating the functionality of more integrated environments. 18:32:24 naryl: the most useful command of vi is :! 18:32:30 pjb: For the comedy value :) 18:32:36 stassats: You should read it just for fun anyway :D 18:33:07 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 18:33:12 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:23 i have read it and it's irrelevant to this discussion 18:34:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:36:25 Then go read about EROS too. http://eros-os.org It's another example of a system without separate address spaces. It's safe, because it's capability based. 18:36:44 do you use it on your desktop? 18:36:57 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:37:12 it really doesn't matter. at the point where you hit the network cable, you have to communicate somehow .. safety isn't the whole story 18:38:02 or "you have to deal with multiple processes somehow" 18:38:20 and you can read about the mars rover, how they run many threads for different tasks 18:38:24 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:51 stassats: sure, they wrote it in C the idiots! 18:39:33 yeah, lost opportunity .. having a slime session open to mars would be kinda neat 18:42:12 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:43:08 ghast`` [~user@host83.190-30-155.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:44:34 -!- ghast` [~user@host83.190-30-155.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:44 rwiker [~rwiker@52.84-48-39.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:21 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.15.30] has joined #lisp 18:45:29 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:45 oGMo: on the other hand, given how Nasa sends commands to the REPL (and the 0:40 to 1:20 round trip), a REPL with sondes doesn't feel so interactive. 18:46:08 oGMo: watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ 18:46:33 are they doing interactive development? 18:46:34 I read somewhere that Nasa once used the REPL to debug a problem remotely. 18:46:46 didi: watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ 18:46:50 "let's test this function. 14 minutes later, oops, it drove off a cliff" 18:47:02 People, you can read and follow links also of message addressed to specific persons!!! 18:47:20 stassats: well that explains why they take 2 weeks to drive 300 meters! 18:47:21 pjb: Yeah, right. I listened instead. Great talk. 18:47:24 rickroll? no thank you 18:47:37 pjb: yes i know :p 18:48:02 pjb: He doesn't seem to like the operators though. ;^) 18:48:05 '"the one thing causing problems with space explorations is Lisp on the probes" and from that point on Lisp at JPL was dead' 18:48:18 reading that story still makes me twitch 18:49:20 maybe it was for the best, a lisp-controlled probe would only lead to v'ger :> 18:49:22 Lisp on the probes isn't a problem: it's a solution. 18:49:35 They would have been toast if it had been written in C. 18:49:39 pjb: But following links addressed to other people wouldn't be impolite? I mean, it's their links, not mine. 18:49:48 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:50:10 only if it was in /msg oGMo. 18:50:24 oic 18:50:46 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:51:25 clisp is using a c compiler, did you know? 18:52:41 pjb: Speaking of CLISP, are there plans to release v2.50? 18:53:24 didi: when it's ready. 18:53:34 didi: clisp isn't vain and doesn't need to have releases every 5 years 18:53:34 stassats: I know. Nowadays I use mostly ccl. 18:53:39 No, not Debian Stable, CLISP. 18:54:01 pjb: and its kernel is written in C and assembly 18:54:05 -!- Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:54:11 stassats: I know. Nowadays I use mostly ccl. 18:54:16 Debian's version apparently have some issues its dynamic modules. 18:54:32 *with its 18:54:46 stassats: but if that's what you meant, it doesn't use a c compiler to compile lisp code, it has its own lisp compiler written in lisp. Perhaps you're confusing with ecl. 18:56:57 Also, /me is excited about ccl coming to Debian. 18:57:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.35.169] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 loreints [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 18:58:27 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:01:05 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:01:20 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:01:36 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@52.84-48-39.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:47 pjb: CCL does have a kernel written in C and assembly, though the compiler is written in Lisp as you say. 19:03:29 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:35 How does one set the print length for output in the Slime sldb buffer? 19:03:47 mmajchrzak1 [~mmajchrza@host-81-190-228-83.wroclaw.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 19:03:52 moore33: it's not a "kernel" that ccl has written in C. More like a few unix interface functions 19:04:11 man print-length 19:04:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for print-length. 19:04:24 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:04:44 moore33: In ~/.swank.lisp, have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/123730 19:04:53 pjb: it calls itself a kernel, and it includes a garbage collector and stuff 19:05:00 pjb: Thanks. 19:05:03 it's here http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_pr_lev.htm 19:05:03 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 Yes, a lot of implementations write their GC in C, for absolutely no valid reason. 19:05:54 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.226] has joined #lisp 19:06:17 paul0 [~paul0@201.86.67.162.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:06:21 wbooze: s/man/clhs/ 19:07:31 pjb: there's no *sldb-printer-bindings* variable anymore 19:09:54 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.35.169] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:10:06 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:18 and i welcome you to peruse this http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-12-21.html on the "GC in C" theme 19:11:05 i somohow assumed gc's would be asm level all.... 19:11:14 somehow* 19:14:47 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-244-73-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:20 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-128-137.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:17:03 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18:07 fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-86.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:31 <[6502]> hello... is it possible to have emacs indenting a list beginning with #' like if it was a defun? I mean indenting (#'square (x) ...) like if it was (defun square (x) ...) 19:24:55 of course it is possible, it's emacs, it's programmable 19:25:25 <[6502]> stassats: I bet that if someone asks you if you know what time is it your answer is "yes, i know" 19:26:39 Indeed. 19:27:10 [6502]: Does anybody really know what time it is? 19:27:28 <[6502]> i actually have a few customizations in my .emacs (e.g. (put 'with-open-file 'lisp-indent-function 1) ) ... but i found them on the net and the documentation for how it works is not that clear for me 19:27:46 read the emacs manual. 19:28:02 [6502]: well, read the slime-indent contrib 19:28:30 [6502]: if i knew how to do it, i would tell, you, but i only know that it's possible 19:29:13 slime-cl-indent 19:29:16 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-56-56.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:29:17 <[6502]> not really related... i've been working a bit on a pretty printer for lisp code... it's not that easy. and this makes me wonder if it should be considered as an alarm sign that lisp syntax is not that great after all 19:29:24 -!- VeganRhino [~quassel@149-169-248-84.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29:53 [6502]: you could look at the one in lisp. pprint dispatch table and all. 19:29:57 Reader macros have complexified the situation indeed. But they're necessary to be able to read legacy lisps. 19:30:24 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-56-56.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:27 can i go about without #\( reader-macro? 19:30:29 <[6502]> pjb: of course not even considering reader macros except for standard ones like quoting or backquoting 19:30:40 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-56-56.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:31:07 <[6502]> pjb: just printing labels or do forms in a pretty way is annoying 19:31:32 [6502]: e.g. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_bb.htm 19:31:55 [6502]: making pretty things is not easy, you can ask the Renaissance painters 19:32:06 Nice... hours because of a missing () in a defclass... Oh well. 19:33:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:33:25 Bike: it's just a method of printing, you still have to supply the actual rules 19:33:34 i know, but it's helpful. 19:33:48 Yay, no crashing! Awesome. 19:33:50 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-56-56.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:08 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:36:15 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:37:53 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:57 cpt_nemo_ [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 -!- cpt_nemo_ is now known as cpt_nemo 19:38:11 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:38:12 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:40:03 vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:55 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has joined #lisp 19:43:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-250-114.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:13 Does anyone use those page marks (^L)? I'm thinking of using them. 19:43:16 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:24 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-252-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 19:43:37 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has joined #lisp 19:44:29 didi: I've tried it a couple times, but always end up just making them separate files. 19:44:49 i just use ;;; to separate things 19:45:36 Things like ASDF, where having a single file is a significant feature, might get some value out of ^L 19:46:39 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:08 pjb: What legacy lisps do you have in mind? I thought that reader macros were for extending syntax, domain specific languages, etc. 19:48:14 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-197-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:50:48 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:51:49 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 19:52:32 Does `unwind-protect' calls its `cleanup-form' even if you do a C-c C-c with SLIME? 19:52:37 didi: yes 19:52:49 Xach: Awesome. 19:53:15 C-c C-c in my lisp signals an interactive interrupt condition, which is a condition like other conditions 19:53:26 Uh, that's nice. 19:54:06 didi: not if you continue 19:54:43 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:54:43 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:55:09 That is an important point 19:55:26 stassats: Right. 19:55:40 and not until you abort, of course 19:55:56 or do some other kind of NLX 19:56:57 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 pkhuong: many thanks for your follow up to my stupid post 20:07:11 pkhuong: in the PostgreSQL community we use to say that we can get your SQL query as fast as you want it to be if you don't care about the result 20:07:58 dim: there's an O(1) solution for this, so you can be fast & correct 20:08:10 true 20:08:33 <[6502]> There's always an O(1) solution 20:08:43 I'll try to have a follow up entry where I'm not trying to be stupid that hard :) 20:08:54 mmm, that's lots of tries 20:09:04 ok, gn guys, see you 20:09:05 sea4ever [~user@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 20:09:16 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 20:09:29 [6502]: not true 20:09:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.35.169] has joined #lisp 20:09:45 stassats: log n, really ;) 20:10:11 unless you have an infinite amount of memory and can precompute all possible inputs 20:11:39 of course, the amount of all possible inputs may be infinite too 20:12:05 -!- ocmsRzr [~user@152.3.68.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:13 <[6502]> stassats: any code you write for a computer in this universe either is an infinite loop or it finishes in a finite < M amount of time, no matter what is the instance of the problem 20:14:22 <[6502]> with an upper bound for M being the busy beaver number of the number of atoms in the universe 20:15:16 and what are you trying to tell me? 20:15:42 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 20:15:57 <[6502]> stassats: that I've some confusion in my head about the true meaning of O(...) (among other things) 20:16:07 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:17:16 i'd welcome an O(1) precise algorithm for factorials, which doesn't use lookup tables 20:17:45 Hmm..an O(1) algorithm for factorials without lookup tables.. 20:17:56 Does it have to produce the correct answer 100% of the time? 20:18:31 yes, you can't use Stirling's formula 20:18:32 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:52 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:56 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:19:20 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:19:41 trivially impossible: you need log(n) time just to read the input. 20:20:13 -!- sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [] 20:20:16 <[6502]> for example.. the input here is a number. What does it mean to be O(1) independent on the number? You cannot even read a number of n bits of precision in O(1)... Or is any processing of any number with any number of bits of precision considered a constant? 20:20:18 :( I was trying to joke. I was gonna say: "(return 1)", it's only right sometimes, but it's very fast when it is right. 20:20:50 imagine it's already read 20:21:18 <[6502]> the output will have some bits too, dependent on the number of bits in input 20:21:42 imagine we don't count the output 20:21:46 stassats: that makes no sense. Any constant time algorithm can only depend on a constant number of bit in the input. 20:21:52 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.35.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:37 pkhuong: just don't count the time it takes to read the input 20:24:25 [6502]: right, a O(n) algorithm is also O(n^2), but that's not typically useful 20:24:37 am0c [~am0c@211.201.38.18] has joined #lisp 20:26:04 <[6502]> oGMo: busy-beaver(number-of-atoms-in-the-universe) is just a fixed number, big for sure... but just a number. And it's just theoretically impossible to write any algorithm in this universe that will take more steps than that number but terminates (it's the definition of busy beaver) 20:26:07 stassats: please think about this. 20:26:21 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:26:45 [6502]: i don't think that's relevant 20:27:04 pkhuong: i know there's no O(1) for factorials, that's the point 20:27:06 <[6502]> oGMo: it means that any algorithm you can write is O(1) 20:27:18 [6502]: no it doesn't 20:27:18 <[6502]> oGMo: or loops forever 20:27:46 stassats: what's that about not counting the time to read the input then? That makes no sense. 20:28:04 Why does the number of bits of input matter? 20:28:47 Euthy: because that's how time complexity is usually measured. 20:28:53 Euthy: it's part of the input size in this case. or it might be 20:29:03 pkhuong: because i don't want to measure it, the time it takes to read it doesn't change if i change the algorithm 20:29:22 you could however specify the factorial function only take N-bit input, and count read time as the constant factor 20:29:36 er, k-bit input, let's be less confusing 20:29:48 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 20:30:00 i.e., it takes a 32-bit number, no more 20:30:16 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:30:39 I don't really know O notation, but don't you have to define what is constant for it to make sense? 20:30:42 stassats: you're not making any sense. 20:30:42 <[6502]> then that thing is O(1) 20:31:05 Euthy: only if you're being pedantic ;) 20:31:14 pkhuong: that's just what i want to measure, however much sense does it make 20:31:36 I don't know what I'm talking about here, but isn't this 6502's confusion? 20:32:03 stassats: what's "read time"? One traversal over the input? Are you trying to say "streaming complexity"? 20:32:29 i don't what's read time, i'm not concerned about 20:32:33 it 20:32:34 *[6502]* liked that in TAOCP there no talking about O(n^2) or stuff like that. The analysis say things like "this algorithm takes 3n^2+7n+37 cycles" 20:32:35 [6502]: that's not how time complexity works 20:32:53 [6502]: Doesn't TAOCP use a specific language? 20:32:57 sure, but .. that 20:33:21 <[6502]> Euthy: a specific processor... all code is assembler MIX 20:33:22 and beyond n^2 it doesn't matter so much .. please study time complexity 20:33:37 [6502]: So isn't that analysis based on that architecture? 20:33:40 I don't see how one can answer to the fact that a constant-time algorithm can only depend on a bounded number of bit in the input with "just don't count the time it takes to read the input." This isn't about reading anything, but pure information theory. 20:33:45 pkhuong: i have a binary number already stored in memory, i want to compute its factorial, is that streaming complexity? 20:34:04 [6502]: The O being defined in relation to it. 20:34:19 pkhuong: the time it takes to read the input never varies if it's a fixed-size input. therefore it's part of the constant factor 20:34:38 pkhuong: if reading bothers you that much you can set the size of input to 64-bit 20:34:40 <[6502]> O(...) thinking is a wonderful tool for reasoning on practical terms, and indeed it's the first thing I check when interviewing someone... however I'm confused about the theoretical definition 20:34:47 pkhuong: it would indeed be valid if you were defining the algorithm to take an unbounded integer, for instance 20:35:08 [6502]: if you're not familiar with even this much, you shouldn't be asking interview questions about it :p 20:35:27 stassats: that's trivially O(1) in regular, bit, complexity. 20:36:00 pkhuong: and i want to know how? 20:36:01 If you want to use another model, you really ought to specify that, especially when factorial so quickly overflows fixed-width integers. 20:36:17 <[6502]> O(n) without having n going to infinite doesn't make sense to me (from a theoretical point of view). if n doesn't go to infinite then everything is O(1) 20:36:55 [6502]: What kind of machine are you talking about? 20:37:00 [6502]: no, no, no 20:37:06 stassats: there's no asymptotic here. The bit complexity model is ill-equipped to consider the question you're interested in. 20:37:15 wait, i actually don't want to know it 20:37:18 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:37:27 infinity isn't a normal behaving mathematical number 20:37:39 *object 20:37:40 <[6502]> especially in javascript :-) 20:37:40 all i wanted is to trying to prove that not everything O(1) by contradiction 20:38:11 stassats: you failed when you specified that your input were fixed-size. 20:39:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.201.38.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:39:41 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-227-19.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 it's simple definition .. time complexity isn't about the _amount_ of time it takes, it's about the number of operations relative to input size 20:40:09 <[6502]> for example, do you know that there is an easy exact mathematical formula that given n returns the n-th prime number, in increasing sequence? 20:40:33 <[6502]> it's not philosophically worse than the formula for the area of a circle 20:41:07 thus trivially a (loop for i below n do OP) loop is O(n) as the operations vary linearly with the input 20:41:10 Is this correct?: Saying everying is O(1) is analogous to saying every object in the world is 1 long. 20:41:13 this is _basic definiton_ here, criminy 20:41:41 s/everying/everything/ 20:41:44 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-193-156.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:49 <[6502]> Euthy: O(1) means computing is bounded by a constant, not by 1 20:41:51 oGMo: careful, it might not be formal enough, and this is #lisp 20:41:51 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:42:31 <[6502]> Euthy: if the input is bounded then clearly this is true 20:42:43 stassats: heh 20:42:47 [6502]: I might be misunderstanding you but I could just as well have said 42 long. 20:44:31 let's not even bring up Theta and Omega :P 20:44:32 [6502]: complexity models are created to analyse and understand how programs behave in the real world (or to preserve academic positions). There's most probably a bounded number of bits in the universe, but asymptotic analysis is still useful. Your stance, while technically correct, is practically useless. 20:44:38 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 20:45:15 [6502]: and, no, O(1) means that the _number of operations_ in the worst case does not vary based on the input 20:45:24 <[6502]> pkhuong: that's exactly my position... O(n) is ok for practical but formally questionable reasoning 20:45:42 [6502]: what? It's formally very well defined. 20:46:00 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 well, the difference in the recent example, (loop for i to n sum i) and (/ (* n (1+ n) 2) is pretty significant 20:47:26 <[6502]> pkhuong: yes, but talking about algorithms that cannot be implemented 20:48:05 all algorithms can be implemented 20:48:11 <[6502]> pkhuong: O(n) requires infinite to make sense 20:48:13 One might say that the hypothesis of unbounded storage is obviously irrealistic and brings the whole edifice down. Yet, it's a useful abstraction, and, within that design choice, there is no formal issue. 20:49:11 -!- fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:22 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:50:15 <[6502]> pkhuong: yes... it is very useful in practice. But formally any real algorithm you will implement will be O(1), because n, in the real world, cannot go to infinite 20:50:27 no, because formally we do have unbounded storage. 20:51:10 [6502]: the point of O notation is algorithm comparison 20:51:30 You simply choose to build your analysis on a useless model and charge others of being formally wrong. Yet these models are very well defined and exhibit no formal weakness. 20:51:35 <[6502]> anvandare: abstract algorithms, not concrete ones 20:51:45 o_O? 20:51:53 Landau notation was invented to classify functions... 20:52:04 [6502]: (define (foo lst) (when (not (null? lst)) (foo (cdr lst)))) <- How is this O(1) 20:52:47 <[6502]> Euthy: on a 32 or 64 bit machine? 20:53:19 What does it matter? 20:53:37 [6502]: bit complexity is not defined on such abstract machines. 20:55:11 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:17 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:55:17 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 <[6502]> pkhuong: exactly... Knuth didn't use O(n^2) on TAOCP, but things like max(170, 19n^3+7n^2+31n+7) with 0 <= n < 65535 for study algorithm performance 20:59:20 [6502]: and that precision is now useless. 20:59:46 <[6502]> for practical reasoning for sure 20:59:57 [6502]: How is my foo O(1)? 21:00:01 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:00:03 It certainly doesn't tell me why the bit complexity model is formally questionable. 21:00:36 -!- ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:01:04 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:01:54 VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:02:10 <[6502]> pkhuong: it's not questionable in the abstract (with infinite computers of inifinite resources), but it's questionable when it's applied to real concrete implementations. It's not questionable for its utility (it's a wonderful tool for reason quickly about these issues) but it's imo formally questionable, because on real computers n doesn't go to infinite 21:03:05 <[6502]> that's the confusion in my mind about the issue 21:03:26 Formally questionable out of the formal world. Try this: a different formal model could better correspond to the performance characteristics of practical systems. 21:05:59 <[6502]> pkhuong: that's exactly the point. you could build a real MIX system (i've heard someone did, using FPGAs), and the formal counting done by knuth would be correct on that real implementation. The formal counting done by O(...) theory just talk about computers that cannot exist. 21:06:40 <[6502]> still a wonderful tool, however... 21:07:06 that's not what you convey when you write that the bit complexity model is formally questionable. 21:08:16 <[6502]> I just fail to see how can you formally apply that model to real programs. The hypothesis needed (infinite) just doesn't hold.. 21:08:49 it's an abstract model. It's not meant to be applied on real programs. 21:09:14 [6502]: Why did you ignore my question? 21:09:49 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-140-86.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:09:56 <[6502]> Euthy: if your system has 32-bit addressing, do you think that that function could loop (recurse) more than 2**32 times? 21:10:24 <[6502]> Euthy: without looping forever in a circle chain of conses, that is 21:11:11 Ah. Now I think I see what you're talking about. 21:12:05 andres-v [~andres-v@centraltelefonica.fruno.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:07 <[6502]> Euthy: any program on any finite computer will either 1) run forever, 2) terminate after a number of steps that smaller of a constant that it's dependent on the size of the computer 21:12:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:13:16 <[6502]> Euthy: the maximum number of steps for a given size n is called n-th busy beaver number 21:13:37 yes, and that's precisely useless when talking about algorithmic time complexity, so what's the point 21:13:52 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:32 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:15:14 "any program will either stop or not stop, so bubble sort is just as efficient as merge sort"? 21:15:19 oh, that's how programs are keep getting slower, the developers are thinking "ah, that's gotta terminate before the heat death of the universe, good enough" 21:15:27 stassats: hehe 21:15:45 stassats: "and if we don't, no one will be around to file a bug" 21:16:03 omg stassats, you signed an NDA!! You bastard! 21:16:08 Stop giving away our corporate secrets! 21:16:17 :\ this is how we save costs on developers 21:16:56 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:53 as i think about it, why write programs at all, the user can do it manually too, he will be done sometime before he dies 21:19:32 well there's also no need .. any bit can be either 0 or 1. any answer is composed of bits. therefore, randomly picking 0 or 1 is a constant-time operation to find a given bit of the result of any operation with 50% success, which is pretty good. so all we need is a coin. 21:19:52 vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:51 oGMo, that isn't entirely true.. if you want to decide on an outcome that has a probability equal to a power of N, where N is relatively prime to 2, you can't do it in bits in constant time. 21:21:16 N.B. Decide on one of {A,B,C} with a 2-sided coin in constant time. 21:21:32 sea4ever: first off it's horrifically wrong, but i did say find _a given bit_, not all of them 21:21:33 (Where the probability of A,B,C is evenly distributed) 21:21:57 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:28 -!- ghast`` is now known as ghast 21:23:03 sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 21:23:17 -!- sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [Client Quit] 21:23:47 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:23:49 sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 21:24:13 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@68-24-131-29.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:27 VieiraN [~VieiraN@200-171-134-72.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:33:43 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:39:11 Nice, I think I understand CFFI sufficiently now to not crash Lisp constantly. Now, is it possible to use some kind of mechanism to clean allocated objects? CFFI has some, but none that would operate automatically. Maybe something like `trivial-garbage'? 21:41:36 didi: trivial-garbage had, iirc, finalizer API, which you can use to call apropriate free() routines 21:41:40 didi: there are some with- macros. 21:42:17 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-016-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:42:24 p_l: That's what I'm thinking, although I've never saw `trivial-garbage' in my life. Just spotted the name. 21:42:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:43:00 pjb: There are, but I went the object trail and I don't know how to reconcile it with the with- macros. 21:43:17 Flanly, you'd be better off writing a C compiler in CL and compiling your C libraries with it, so that memory can be controlled by your CL implementation. 21:44:22 Otherwise, the idea is not to keep references to C objects. Build Lisp objects with their data. So that you only need to allocate memory locally, and with- macros can free it after the ffi call. 21:44:56 pjb: The problem is that the library is event based, so I can't just call something and get the result. 21:45:31 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.15.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:47:17 Maybe I can, with each `make-instance', register each object in a global hash-table and clean them when the mail loop exits. 21:47:26 Well, I'll have to think about it. 21:47:45 didi: what library is that? 21:47:49 stassats: gtk 21:48:17 i see 21:48:44 what happened to other gtk libraries? 21:48:52 or commonqt? 21:50:38 -!- answer_421 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 21:51:24 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb cool new features] 21:51:37 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:52:34 I'm just trying this now. 21:52:46 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-lbeweuejyokzmfts] has joined #lisp 21:53:54 trying to write a new cl gtk library? 21:53:56 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 21:54:14 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:22 Nope. 21:54:32 good 21:54:35 I know. 21:54:42 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:46 didi: but what are you trying then? 21:58:23 stassats: Just playing around. 21:59:55 didi: do you know about finalizers? 22:01:02 stassats: No, but they sound useful. What are they? 22:01:35 hooks into garbage collector called when an object is about to be collected 22:01:44 Nice. 22:01:52 That's what I need. 22:01:56 I think. 22:02:01 minion: trivial-garbage? 22:02:01 trivial-garbage: trivial-garbage provides a portable API to finalizers, weak hash-tables and weak pointers on all major CL implementations. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 22:02:11 stassats: Thank you, I'll read it. 22:03:53 qt is easy in that regard, because some objects take ownership of other objects and are responsible for their deallocation 22:04:32 so, you're only concerned with the deallocation of the top-most object 22:05:07 stassats: That's the same with GtkWindow, for example. 22:05:28 That's not a bad idea, actually. 22:06:40 right, manually deallocating everything will be a nightmare 22:06:52 Good idea. 22:07:49 I think I can force objects to be tied to container ones, like Racket does it. 22:08:01 there are some problems with keeping both sides in sync 22:08:35 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-193-145.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:12 in commonqt, for example, you can subclass a qt class and add your slots and so you get two objects, one in lisp one in c++, and you need to make sure that both link to each other 22:09:24 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-lbeweuejyokzmfts] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 22:10:06 stassats: I'm doing the same approach CFFI's manual use to `easy-handle': A CLOS class with a `pointer' slot. 22:11:24 -!- glistle [~glistle@dsl-066-037-093-089.citizip.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:51 your playing around seems to bee too involved! careful, don't create another gtk binding by mistake 22:12:06 stassats: I will not, I assure you. 22:12:15 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-xkmzznmpadnyqnxf] has joined #lisp 22:13:41 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-xkmzznmpadnyqnxf] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:43 And even if that was really my intent, I would build a GObject-Introspection binding. 22:14:17 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:28 build a new GUI library for wayland, be ahead of the curve 22:14:35 Nah, I'm good. 22:17:03 curve? 22:17:10 wayland temporarily sucks. 22:17:26 permanently as well 22:17:42 fit for embedded, not desktop, IMHO 22:17:43 uh oh, what have i done 22:17:47 - 22:17:54 stassats: you woke the wayland hater ;) 22:18:10 don't worry, I'm busy with ctf, no more commenting on GUI ;P 22:18:12 i am hoping for an excellent X replacement sometime, but from what i have seen ... we just have to wait. 22:21:05 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:21:24 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:25:51 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:31 -!- mmajchrzak1 [~mmajchrza@host-81-190-228-83.wroclaw.mm.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:28:05 -!- fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:28:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:31:19 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:31:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:33:06 is wayland a dissapointment? 22:33:45 ghast: it is off-topic for sure 22:34:00 true. 22:34:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:15 -!- agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:37:39 ghast. so far, yes. but i am keeping my fingers crossed nevertheless. 22:37:51 it is a work in progress. 22:39:14 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-46-8.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:34 i see. too bad :( 22:39:55 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:09 <[6502]> sleeptime for me... g'night guys 22:44:14 -!- [6502] 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