00:04:10 -!- lkjhg_ [d9fdf272@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.253.242.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:04:14 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-24-103-113-68.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 00:06:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 00:07:12 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp121-44-22-153.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:08:37 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:10:02 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:15:07 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:17 Does anyone have a good guide to using lparallel? 00:19:15 <_tca> have you looked at it's website? 00:19:49 I'm reading through it 00:20:16 It's a very nice website, by the way 00:22:30 -!- [6502] 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joined #lisp 05:13:17 ntd [~user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 05:13:57 How can I restrict the line length of formatted output? I want to pretty print code within a maximum number of columns. 05:16:19 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 05:17:15 Set *print-right-margin* 05:19:45 pjb: works. thank you. 05:24:30 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.59.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:48 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:07 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:39 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:34:54 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:36:54 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 05:50:05 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:09 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:52:33 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:52:42 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:52:51 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 05:53:30 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:55:45 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:44 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:59 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:45 gcv [~gcv@c-76-126-148-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:02:35 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:48 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:05:12 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:05:48 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:00 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:11:42 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:12:57 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:18:04 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:19:22 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:20:37 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 06:21:42 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:47 -!- zodiac1111_ [~zodiac111@124.90.132.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:24:11 lcc [~user@75-173-69-129.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:14 zodiac1111_ [~zodiac111@124.90.132.225] has joined #lisp 06:25:11 -!- gcv [~gcv@c-76-126-148-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gcv] 06:27:03 rtj [~rtj@bb121-7-122-125.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:31:21 Why does sbcl go nuts sometimes when stracing it? 06:35:03 define "go nuts" 06:36:51 mskou72 [~martin@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:36:56 hi 06:39:11 mal__, it's a reference to the IRC channel about the Go programming language 06:39:13 *Sgeo* ducks 06:41:46 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.145.217.167] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:52:17 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lqmgsfhudfzincip] has joined #lisp 06:56:22 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:48 lucca [~lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:35 ehu [~ehuels@31.137.130.126] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has left #lisp 07:09:53 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 07:12:38 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:12:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:12:59 ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:08 ehu` [~ehuels@31.137.6.70] has joined #lisp 07:14:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:21 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@31.137.130.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:16:16 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 07:16:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.222] has joined #lisp 07:16:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.222] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:17:20 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 07:17:28 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:23:04 -!- arrsim [~user@ppp118-208-244-96.lns20.hba2.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:41 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:09 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@31.137.6.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:27:20 ehu [~ehuels@109.37.226.212] has joined #lisp 07:28:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:30:04 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.180.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:35:49 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:36:42 protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:39:08 /wn 07:41:09 hmm - so *print-right-margin* can be used to "wrap" output from FORMAT ? 07:41:54 z1l0g: yes - although the pretty printer won't wrap long strings for you. 07:42:25 ah, okay. That was what I was wanting to do :/ 07:43:00 you can split your string and then use the pretty printer to do the wrapping. 07:43:40 managed to cobble together a generic wrapper for strings but that would have been easier if it worked on strings 07:44:45 would still need to limit breaks to spaces though 07:47:35 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: asleep] 07:48:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:48:36 -!- z1l0g [~jgw@216.99.214.24] has quit [Quit: That's it for today] 07:49:37 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:47 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 07:50:00 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:51:17 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 07:58:09 stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-55-96.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:26 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:01:28 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has joined #lisp 08:03:53 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.97] has joined #lisp 08:07:25 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@67-5-174-57.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:43 jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has joined #lisp 08:16:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.222] has joined #lisp 08:21:34 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 08:21:35 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 08:22:03 -!- attila_lendvai is now known as Guest96138 08:22:03 -!- jdz is now known as Guest19971 08:23:57 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:13 stassats`, I'm planning on linking to your comment in a blog post I'm going to make, but ... I feel like everything I want to say is summarized by that comment 08:29:43 (hmm, well, no. Contrasting with Tcl and code examples are both interesting, I think) 08:35:28 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:35:57 -!- Neronus [christian@heraklit.ayous.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:39:35 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.97] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 08:40:43 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@67-5-174-57.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:41:40 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 -!- anon119 [~bman@c-67-181-158-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:47:21 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:31 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@67-5-174-57.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:35 -!- lirt [~lirt@94.51.3.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:55:32 Is CL-SQL the interface/ORM to use today or are there something better (for MySQL)? 08:58:40 -!- Guest19971 is now known as jdz 09:03:58 mskou72: we have hu.dwim.perec, but it doesn't have mysql backend. it's mostly used with postgres and there's a fork that supports oracle much better 09:04:10 -!- Guest96138 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:04:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.25.222] has quit [Changing host] 09:04:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:05:32 we used clsql for a while before annoyance pushed us into rolling our own 09:08:04 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:08:49 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 attila_lendvai, annoyance? 09:11:28 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:11:44 Sgeo: its total confusion of connection-specification/connection/transaction, which was most obvious in straight out using the wrong word, iirc a connection is called database or something... 09:12:53 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 09:13:45 Sgeo: other than that, iirc we had a hard time debugging it, and when we wanted to fix it and/or make it more debuggable, the code just resisted. then we (2) wrote hu.dwim.rdbms to about equal functionality on postgres in about a week and cursed to stick to clsql this long (some 8-10 months iirc). 09:15:05 ....is dwim.hu continuation-based? 09:15:15 (Guessing base on the ugly URL that my browser is now showing me) 09:15:18 *based 09:16:45 -!- Ottre [ottre@wikipedia/Ottre] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19:48 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:19:53 -!- gko [~user@220.228.255.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:55 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:36 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:21:36 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:50 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:24:40 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:33 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:25:49 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:34:45 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-159-95.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:35:08 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-52-53.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:36:45 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:37:29 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:40:14 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-69-70.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:40:31 -!- mskou72 [~martin@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:40:59 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:47:27 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:48:04 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:51:30 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:53:06 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:53:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 09:55:14 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.235.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:34 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:52 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:46 eudicot [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:28 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-52-53.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 10:17:24 [502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 10:18:13 -!- [502] is now known as [6502] 10:22:32 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:56 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 10:26:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.156] has joined #lisp 10:26:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.156] has quit [Changing host] 10:26:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:27:20 Sgeo: no. or at least, not in the sense UCW is. links point to closures in hashtables, but call/cc is optional 10:32:07 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:33:20 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 10:36:31 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.202] has joined #lisp 10:36:54 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.202] has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:25 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 10:38:58 hi attila_lendvai :) 10:39:09 hello fe[nl]ix 10:39:32 not much lisping lately, right? the iolib repo feed is quite quiet... 10:41:16 I do lisp for work now :) 10:41:36 fe[nl]ix: congrats! 10:42:46 fe[nl]ix: what H4ns says! 10:42:54 fe[nl]ix: can you say for whom? 10:43:09 where, what kind of work? 10:43:18 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:43:54 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B8E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:44:00 fe[nl]ix: oh, good to hear! I downgraded to lua... :/ but the colleagues are nice, so it's ok... 10:46:04 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 10:46:13 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:49:31 <[6502]> clojure purity reminds me of those peace activists that love to sing and smell flowers... just because someone else that is rude, ugly and with guns keeps the order needed to be able to do so 10:50:04 Good afternoon all. I'm new to lisp land, and was hoping to start with something practical with regards to the tools I use. Few questions I have that seem to be messy when I google: Package management and using packages. (Just pointing in the right direction would be appreciated) 10:51:08 <[6502]> eudicot: you mean about understanding how the package system works or about finding real world useful libraries? 10:51:41 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:52:01 Well, first thing is installing packages, then I want to know how to use them; e.g. a networks library that's built-in or other libraries in general 10:52:05 eudicot, asdf, quicklisp, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 10:52:18 <[6502]> quicklisp forever 10:52:42 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 10:52:50 Thanks, Sgeo. 10:53:21 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 10:53:32 agumonkey [~agu@201.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:05 And is clisp recommended or should I look for another interpreter? 10:54:26 eudicot: most people here use sbcl or clozure cl 10:54:52 eudicot: but clisp is fine for a start. note that all of them are compilers (common lisp is a compiled language) 10:54:59 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:55:18 <[6502]> f00dtime 10:55:23 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:56:09 *eudicot* pacman -S sbcl 10:56:18 thanks, H4ns. Just curious, are they performance differences? 10:56:36 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:43 eudicot: of course. clisp uses a virtual machine, and is relatively slow 10:57:09 eudicot: relatively slow does not mean much until you know what you intend to do, so i'd not worry about the performance too much in the beginning. 10:57:42 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:57:42 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 10:57:43 Definitely. Premature optimization is the root of all evil. 10:57:45 wibble37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has joined #lisp 10:57:54 eudicot: one of the good things about common lisp is that it is standardized and you can switch between implementations if you write portable code. so, if you find clisp to be slow for whatever you do, you can use something that has a native compiler instead. 10:57:55 All evil being a tree? :p <-- lame joke. 10:59:26 theron_ [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:19 I'm hoping to get a simple chat program written today, if things don't get too trippy. Just to get a taste. 11:00:56 Note that networking is not part of ANSI Common Lisp. However, most implementations provide networking services, and there exist libraries that abstract over the differences. 11:01:22 I did program in a functional language before; SML. I don't know about Lisp's type system fully yet, but it seems like an eager language(correct me if I'm wrong) 11:01:32 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 - 11:01:59 eudicot: values are typed, variables are not. 11:02:25 But you main inform the compiler that some variables (or slots) will only contain values of a certain type. 11:04:08 what's the type-aware setter called? (and to minimize such questions, is there a good reference for what is considered common-ground between all those compilers?) 11:06:30 http://l1sp.org/cl 11:06:40 The ANSI Common Lisp spec 11:07:13 (That URL just redirects to the CLHS.) 11:07:37 -!- x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 11:08:06 Thanks :> Yeah, that's perfect, looks comprehensive 11:08:46 -!- wibble37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:56 x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:55 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:21:09 eudicot: for portable networking, look at usocket 11:23:24 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 11:29:43 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:37 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:32:48 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 11:35:03 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:51 eudicot: I don't know if you meant to imply it, but Common Lisp is not a functional language. 11:36:23 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 11:37:07 It's weird so far, feels like python haha 11:37:33 not in terms of syntax, just in terms of everything being an object and scope being mutable 11:38:18 It's not weird: all the other programming languages (but FORTRAN which was designed earlier than lisp) copy from lisp. 11:38:47 Lisp forked from fortran because fortran designers didn't want to incorporate things like expression IF or COND. 11:38:53 fortran in use today is more modern 11:39:00 Sure. And lisp too. 11:39:35 and then, who are these speculations relevant? 11:39:46 but AFAIK, you still cannot write in fortran c = if d<0 then -2 else 2. 11:40:30 It's not speculation, it's historical fact that lisp is the oldest programming language still in use but for fortran, and that most language designers do actually know lisp. 11:41:02 even as in the case of Larry Wall, they are not big fans :) 11:41:05 A lot of them even implement their language in lisp! (at least in the first versions). 11:41:32 the lisp i use is just 18 years old 11:41:35 eudicot: the only real programming language is lisp, all the others are only DSLs. 11:41:50 stassats`: the lisp you're using can run programs 40 years old. 11:42:57 only some subset of the programs 11:42:57 Interesting. I actually saw a talk by Alan Kay about DSLs that seemed to encourage making DSLs for productivity and increasing maintainability of code 11:43:38 how is this a relevant advantage? i don't care if it can run programs twice older than myself 11:45:00 If your thing is writing mathematical formulas, Fortran is the right DSL (use f2cl). If your thing is writing business applications, Cobol is the right DSL. If your thing is doing I don't know what, python might be the right DSL (use cl-python). If your thing is writing a unix kernel, C is the right DSL (use Zeta-C). etc. 11:45:44 stassats`: you're using roads, buildings and power stations older than you. That must be bad. My advice: go to Mars, and rebuild all your infrastructure from scratch. 11:46:20 what a bunch of nonsense 11:46:23 *didi* likes pjb's enthusiasm 11:46:59 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-1-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 11:47:05 gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has joined #lisp 11:47:07 stassats`: what? You wouldn't like to go to Mars and start over? 11:47:37 ahh it's a wonderful day 11:49:36 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:30 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:01 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:54:57 Xach: around? 11:56:25 -!- chenbing [~user@223.166.93.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:07 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:15 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-129-68.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:25 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:01:17 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:46 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:03:11 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:09 cfy` [~cfy@125.123.44.208] has joined #lisp 12:04:54 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:04:56 -!- cfy` [~cfy@125.123.44.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:47 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:22 -!- weinholt [weinholt@ratio.weinholt.se] has quit [Changing host] 12:09:22 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #lisp 12:09:39 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:12:03 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:14:37 ehu: hi, got your email 12:15:46 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.86] has joined #lisp 12:15:49 Xach: hi. 12:15:53 Xach: can you help? 12:16:44 *Xach* will review 12:17:00 thanks! 12:17:07 let me know either way. 12:17:40 ehu: that seems like an easy fix to me. so using EXT is backwards-compatible? 12:18:01 eudicot: out of curiosity, what kind of chat program are you trying to build? are you targetting a specific protocol, or just something you're making up yourself 12:18:03 I'll verify, but yes, it should be. 12:18:12 because EXT was already used in our own codebase. 12:19:13 I'll try to implement a one-channel one for starters, basically everything is one-to-all, if that works, I can just try to learn how to deal with the language more by turning it into IRC, madnificent 12:27:14 eudicot: cool. i'm not sure how you're learning the language, but just starting to work in it might be somewhat hard. there are good books online in case they turn out to be necessary. good luck! 12:27:44 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:28:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:29:09 thanks! I'm using on lisp and the hperspec, on lisp is pretty straightforward, as I've programmed before and all the meta programming talk is kept to a minimum it seems in that book 12:30:37 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7398104/lisp-funcall-of-function-receives-too-few-arguments 12:30:46 Xach: 0.24.0 (which I had lying around) has EXT:MAKE-SOCKET, so it seems to be backward compatible at least one year back, but I didn't change anything before then - consciously - so, it probably goes back years. 12:30:50 Blah, the accepted answer's not the best 12:31:39 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:56 in that you don't need funcall at all? 12:32:19 <_travis_> yeah i'm confused 12:32:31 lispm's answer is better 12:32:47 <_travis_> the problem was an incorrect call to funcall. the accepted answer fixes that. unless you thik the problem is it's not the most effecient code, but i don't think that was the question :) 12:32:56 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:33:01 but, asking lisp question at stackoverflow, you know what's coming 12:33:25 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:33:36 <_travis_> i don't see lispm's answer? 12:33:50 the most upvoted one 12:34:58 I kind of like the answer that mentions that both funcall isn't needed and the correct way to use funcall 12:35:32 eudicot: practical common lisp can be a sane reference when you're starting out too :) 12:35:57 <_travis_> i just finished reading that. very good book. 12:36:16 <_travis_> for a new person at least. i'm obviously not experienced enough to compare it to other lisp books. 12:36:34 PCL is good if you actually want to write programs in Lisp 12:37:07 followed by reading PAIP, sans the first section 12:37:41 Associat0r [~Associat0@unaffiliated/associat0r] has joined #lisp 12:37:48 -!- Associat0r [~Associat0@unaffiliated/associat0r] has left #lisp 12:38:04 PAIP? 12:38:10 minion: PAIP? 12:38:10 PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 12:38:18 ooh i see. 12:39:10 is there any good library for GUI programming in CL (linux)? (wxwidgets? gtk? qt? fltk?) 12:39:22 minion: commonqt? 12:39:22 commonqt: a Common Lisp binding to the smoke library for Qt. http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/ 12:39:52 cool 12:45:20 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-129-68.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:45:22 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:49:56 chitofan [dcff02a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.163] has joined #lisp 12:50:27 hi 12:50:29 anyone here? 12:51:26 no 12:52:19 could you tell me why http://paste.lisp.org/display/131131 12:52:32 in the last part of the cond 12:52:47 there is a t before '(you cannot get that.) 12:52:48 ? 12:54:00 chitofan: it is indented badly. the (t ...) is a peer clause of the ((member ...) ...) clause. 12:54:08 t as a test that always succeeds 12:56:03 so everytime if i use a cond 12:56:43 and i want to print a statement if the test is false 12:56:55 i have to put t in front of the list always? 12:57:07 no 12:57:19 you don't have to 12:57:37 -!- lucca [~lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:41 but it's nice and symmetrical 12:57:45 cond goes through its list of clauses sequentially and triggers the first one where the test succeeds. 12:57:56 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:58:07 -!- felideon [~felideon@184.170.255.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:24 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:58:37 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:04 ok thanks :) 12:59:04 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:59:15 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:59:22 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:41 felideon [~felideon@184.170.255.36] has joined #lisp 13:00:10 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.74] has joined #lisp 13:00:17 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:03:00 -!- jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 13:03:06 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:04:33 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:05:23 hi 13:05:26 am i missing something 13:05:35 We know. 13:05:36 or is cons and push similar? 13:05:37 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 push uses cons. 13:06:01 (push e l) ~= (setf l (cons e l)), but without evaluating l twice. 13:06:37 and with evaluating e and l in that order :) 13:06:43 Yes. 13:09:22 ok, got it :) 13:12:11 hi all, is there a lisp profiler for [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:11 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:11 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:11 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: cookie parsed as UTF-8, but UTF8-BASE requested 13:12:14 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:17 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:20 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:23 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: cookie written as UTF-8, but UTF8-BASE requested 13:12:26 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:28 stop it 13:12:29 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:33 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:35 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: cookie parsed as UTF-8, but UTF8-BASE requested 13:12:38 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:41 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:45 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:48 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: cookie parsed as UTF-8, but UTF8-BASE requested 13:12:51 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:54 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:12:58 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:01 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: no timeout support on clozure yet; need to refactor for per-stream deadlines instead (?) 13:13:04 127.0.0.1 - [2012-08-20 14:38:50] "GET /lispworks/ HTTP/1.1" 307 - "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/14.0.1" 13:13:05 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:08 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:11 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:14 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: no timeout support on clozure yet; need to refactor for per-stream deadlines instead (?) 13:13:17 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:19 awesome 13:13:21 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:24 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:27 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: cookie written as UTF-8, but UTF8-BASE requested 13:13:30 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:33 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:35 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:38 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: cookie parsed as UTF-8, but UTF8-BASE requested 13:13:39 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 13:13:41 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:44 [2012-08-20 14:38:50 [WARNING]] Warning while processing connection: TODO THL handle-condition # 13:13:45 -!- hlavaty [~pl@web1.rootnode.net] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (hlavaty) 13:13:58 guys 13:14:05 have you ever created a bot for a game before? 13:14:09 p_l: wait, i didn't catch what he was saying! 13:14:25 I hope he manages to gets control of his client back before rejoining 13:14:38 *|3b|* suspects it was mostly cursing about that not being what was intended to paste :p 13:14:43 chitofan: I did. Have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/playtomo-stonedge/index.html 13:14:59 Well, not exactly a real "robot", just a solver. 13:15:35 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:39 chitofan: I seem to recall someone doing Second Life bots with ABCL and IKVM 13:17:24 cool :D 13:17:42 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 13:18:30 chitofan: last Google AI Challenge was won by a bot in CL as well, I think? 13:19:38 -!- zodiac1111_ [~zodiac111@124.90.132.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:46 really? 13:21:49 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:21:53 i thought it was dominated by java, C++ 13:21:57 lisp was in 33rd place 13:22:11 chitofan: the penultimate challenge 13:22:13 penultimate, not last 13:22:46 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 13:23:18 hmm, i can't find it 13:23:51 http://quotenil.com/Planet-Wars-Post-Mortem.html 13:23:59 ah right 13:24:07 last one was the Ants one, wasn't it? 13:29:19 hi all, sorry for the mis-paste 13:31:57 kanedank` [~user@pool-71-162-101-111.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:36 originally i wanted to ask if there is something more user friendly for profiling clozure cl than oprofile, H4ns mentioned something of his own http://netzhansa.blogspot.de/2008/05/symbolics-keyboard-on-ps2-port.html but i can't find it 13:33:06 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:33:06 it's in the contrib directory 13:33:13 hlavaty: as far as i know it is integrated into slime, too 13:33:26 ok great, thanks 13:33:39 -!- x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 13:37:11 x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:25 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:45:15 -!- x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 13:47:11 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.103] has joined #lisp 13:47:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.103] has quit [Changing host] 13:47:11 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:47:37 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:48:04 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:51:52 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B8E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:32 x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:49 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:50 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 13:57:25 -!- kanedank` [~user@pool-71-162-101-111.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:59:11 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:00:25 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-68.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:22 -!- x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 14:02:36 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:44 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858cea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:54 lkjhg_ [d9fdd663@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.253.214.99] has joined #lisp 14:07:23 can anybody tell me how to get all the files referenced in an asdf module? 14:07:55 swank:asdf-system-files 14:08:05 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:21 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:42 My swank lacks this interesting-sounding function 14:08:51 (asdf:module-components (asdf:find-system system)) 14:09:00 Xach: that's because you don't have slime-asdf enabled 14:09:36 x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:37 I should attempt to understand asdf at some point 14:09:44 asdf:module-components doesn't cut it 14:09:57 (mapcar (function asdf:COMPONENT-PATHNAME) (asdf:module-components (asdf:find-system system))) ; even 14:10:22 Well, perhaps you want to have a little recursive method. 14:11:01 well, you can just look at the code of swank:asdf-system-files 14:11:28 pjb: thanks, this does the trick 14:11:46 What are the likely negative consequences, if any, of randomly renaming packages? 14:11:48 lkjhg_: it doesn't components can have sub-components 14:11:50 stassats`: I don't use swank (at least I don't think I do) 14:12:15 Sgeo: code loaded in the future that expects the original name will break 14:12:17 Sgeo: functions may contain hard wired references to the original package name. 14:12:37 That is not very common, is it? 14:12:40 stassats`: well, my system doesn't have subcomponents at the moment, so I should be ok 14:12:41 lkjhg_: do you use slime? 14:12:59 stassats`: nope, it's plain ecl 14:13:03 I have several programs that intern symbols in some specific package. 14:13:13 pjb: at runtime? 14:13:13 stassats`: and I need it to create makefile rules 14:13:16 Yes. 14:13:20 pjb: why? 14:13:22 Interpreters, compilers, etc. 14:13:26 ok 14:17:24 "; please do not remove or edit these comments" 14:17:34 ^in some LispCabinet config file 14:18:04 -!- DT`` [~ea@host113-87-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:15 they are load-bearing comments 14:27:26 :-) 14:28:12 mjl [~superjudg@37-46-176-66.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 14:29:08 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-179-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-69-70.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:17 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:32:27 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-69-70.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:32:49 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 -!- mjl [~superjudg@37-46-176-66.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:58 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:15 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:00 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:53 DT`` [~ea@host233-153-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 -!- x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 14:42:08 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:35 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:38 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:44:36 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:45:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:45:43 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:41 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-153-213.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 *madnificent* never builds symbols from strings directly, always builds them from other symbols 14:47:05 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.59.104] has joined #lisp 14:48:19 hswe [~hswe@blackhole.space150.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:20 (including the use of symbol-name, so *print-case* doesn't mess things up) 14:48:58 pjb could use symbol-package on a reference symbol, then. 14:49:28 madnificent: why would you do that? I mean, isn't that the same as using a string? 14:50:12 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-52-53.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 ehu: (setf *print-case* :downcase) (print :foo) 14:50:26 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:50:37 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:40 madnificent: that part I do understand, but... You *build* symbols from symbols. 14:51:06 why would you use SYMBOL-NAME on a symbol? That turns the symbol effectively into a string. 14:51:13 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:51:31 jcubed [~jaj@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 14:51:49 ehu: well, if you print them, then they will be built lowercas. so they aren't as easily accessible (and it's often a source of bugs) 14:52:20 madnificent: i'd say setting *print-case* is often the source of bugs :) 14:52:22 well, a symbol itself is a string designator. 14:52:35 Hi, I just started using Lispworks again. Is there a Lispworks specific IRC channel? 14:52:47 ehu: (make-symbol (format nil "~A-~A" :foo :bar)) is something that will be odd in that case 14:52:48 (concatenate 'string 'My_SYMBOL "another-string") 14:53:01 H4ns: true, but it's easier on my eyes. i prefer it to just be correct. 14:53:18 madnificent, then I suppose you should not use format, but concatenate. 14:53:30 jcubed: not that i know of. but it's common lisp, so unless it's lispworks-specific, you should be able to find help here :) 14:53:43 jcubed: No, but there's a great LispWorks-specific mailing list called Lisp-Hug 14:53:53 jcubed: very friendly and smart people there 14:54:04 ehu: and people should use #'symbol-name instead of just printing the symbol :) symbol-name is still upcased (as it should be) 14:54:28 Thanks! 14:54:37 madnificent: you mean, SYMBOL-NAME doesn't change the case, which formatting does. 14:54:42 ehu: yes 14:54:49 that's why you should use concatenate. 14:54:56 that's not printing. 14:55:09 x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:42 ehu: i don't think you're allowed to call concatenate like that 14:57:04 ehu: also, i didn't see that 'My_SYMBOL wasn't a string :/ sorry for the resulting confusion. (but still, it doesn't necessarily work afaict) 14:57:06 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:57:15 -!- smithzv_ [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:29 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:58:39 *ehu* reads the spec - again. 14:58:39 ok. you're right. 14:58:40 it should not be a string designator, it must be a string. 14:58:43 (apply 'concatenate 'string (mapcar 'string (list 'foo 'bar 'baz "quux")))? 14:59:07 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:59:11 sykopomp: yeah, that's cool 15:02:27 teggi [~teggi@123.21.169.99] has joined #lisp 15:04:22 kanedank` [~user@c-24-62-3-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:41 -!- chitofan [dcff02a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.163] has left #lisp 15:05:52 chitofan [dcff02a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.163] has joined #lisp 15:10:22 -!- kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has left #lisp 15:10:52 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:46 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-hkoopjjltqwsmegu] has joined #lisp 15:12:30 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:37 jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has joined #lisp 15:18:47 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:17 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:19:25 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:20:55 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 15:23:55 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-ommunsvxtrretvsa] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:34 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:28:25 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-64-1-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:28:37 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:37 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:28:37 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:01 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:31:23 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:32:43 If a is an array, (format t "~A" a) prints all the elements. Is there a format specifier that will print only the first N elements? 15:33:19 sigjuice_: no. binding *print-length* might help or might not. 15:33:28 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:51 *Xach* usually sets it to 50 in .sbclrc 15:34:19 Or should I just do something like this? (format t "~A" (subseq #(1 2 3 4 5) 0 3)) 15:35:28 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:35:41 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:49 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-75-142-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 15:36:16 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 15:36:28 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869e36.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:18 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:31 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:40:44 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 15:41:48 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:42:58 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:14 Or, do one of the utility libraries have a (hexdump array length) function? 15:45:31 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:45 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 15:46:20 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:48:24 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:48 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:48 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:48:48 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:50:59 shifty [~user@114-198-35-89.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:53:40 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.241.67] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:58:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:59:19 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:25 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:23 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:01:32 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:40 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:01:48 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-157-071.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:13 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:03 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:34 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 16:04:08 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:04:46 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:05:32 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:41 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:06:47 Jabberwock [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 16:07:11 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Guest36974 16:07:21 -!- Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:40 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.133] has joined #lisp 16:08:40 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:47 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.197.210] has joined #lisp 16:10:02 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:25 -!- lkjhg_ [d9fdd663@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.253.214.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:11:34 abeaumont [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:55 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:12:33 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.59.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:12:53 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:13:10 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:20 hexdump? 16:14:54 if you aren't particularly concerned about performance, then (format t "~A" (subseq #(1 2 3 4 5) 0 3)) is fine 16:15:38 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:16:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 16:18:20 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 -!- jdz [~jdz@91.105.18.48] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:19:34 Xach: yes, using symbol-package of a reference symbol would definitely be a good idea. 16:19:52 pjb: something to consider when randomly renaming packages becomes popular 16:20:22 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:54 smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:01 I prefer to leave the name and change the nicknames. 16:21:52 And I pass the full name to intern. 16:22:46 stassats`: you are right. I was hoping there would be some fancy format directives that did what I wanted. 16:23:17 well, there isn't 16:23:32 you can write one, though 16:28:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.37.226.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:22 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:33:16 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 16:33:32 -!- zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176315793.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:35:24 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:10 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:47:28 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:53:20 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 16:54:52 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-52-53.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 16:55:07 <[6502]> dart language is shocking 16:55:45 <[6502]> new List() is List // true: every string is an object 16:56:38 shockingly offtopic 16:57:48 (typep (make-string 3) 'vector) => t 16:58:35 hey, I have a friend who works on it! 16:58:47 -!- ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:59:24 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:32 Cosman246: doesn't make it more on topic. please join #dart (or whatever) :) 17:03:20 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:03:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:03:46 madnificent: that's not what I responded to 17:03:47 sorry 17:03:57 I was responding to [6502] 17:04:04 I don't actually know much about it myself 17:07:35 <[6502]> (typep (make-array 3 :element-type 'fixnum) '(vector T)) ==> NIL 17:09:15 that's because of array specialization 17:09:28 try (typep (make-array 3 :element-type 'fixnum) '(vector *)) 17:10:01 and this doesn't actually test the type of each element 17:10:05 it's the type of the array 17:11:18 <[6502]> stassats`: hopefully an array of A is not an array of B just because an A is a B 17:12:28 i don't know what strawman are you trying to pull to show your dislike of dart 17:12:42 which is in any case off-topic 17:13:38 ikki [~ikki@189.196.107.193] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 but i can talk about CL, so, (subtypep '(cons string string) '(cons t t)) => T 17:14:35 <[6502]> wow 17:14:36 Alessandro` [~user@109.53.115.147] has joined #lisp 17:14:51 -!- Alessandro` is now known as zermo 17:16:19 <[6502]> stassats`: but that because cons are intrinsically untyped? Does that work for arrays too? 17:17:05 <[6502]> eek 17:17:07 <[6502]> works 17:17:30 <[6502]> (subtypep '(vector string) '(vector t)) ==> T 17:17:37 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 <[6502]> I'm sure I'm missing something huge 17:17:50 that's because the upgraded-array-element-type of both is T 17:18:02 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-129-68.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:20 but, it doesn't matter, because array type specifiers are not specifying the types of elements, but the array specialization 17:18:33 <[6502]> stassats`: but can I pass a vector of strings to someone that is expecting a vector of T ? 17:18:55 lucca [~lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:06 you are confused as to how array specialization works 17:19:15 <[6502]> sure I am 17:19:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.36.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:37 you can't access array of one specialization if you are expecting another 17:20:18 (upgraded-array-element-type 'string) => T, so it will work with strings, because it's the same 17:20:29 but, it won't work with fixnums on SBCL 17:20:34 fwiw, i'm more interested in lispyscript than in dart 17:22:12 <[6502]> stassats`: ahhhh... it's a trick, it works because they're stored in a compatible way 17:22:31 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206197.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:44 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:22:52 <[6502]> stassats`: but wouldn't work with unsigned-byte 8 17:24:04 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:18 it's not compatible way, it's the same way 17:24:34 there are no compatible ways when it comes to array specialization 17:24:53 it either is the same way, or an unspecified way 17:26:40 -!- x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: adieu.] 17:28:15 <[6502]> stassats`: ok... i think i get it. Basically a vector of string "is a" vector of cons. But a vector of '(unsigned-byte 8) "is not" a vector of double-float... correct? 17:28:39 no 17:28:59 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: Tempo di fare qualcosa di utile.] 17:29:00 the array of strings is the array of (upgraded-array-element-type 'string) 17:29:10 which may be anything 17:29:25 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 <[6502]> and the same is an array of cons 17:30:06 only with (upgraded-array-element-type 'cons) 17:30:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 17:30:13 which may be anything as well 17:30:22 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 x8b5f2s9pq [~peachwife@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:02 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:31:26 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:56 <[6502]> stassats`: exactly... this is not true for '(unsigned-byte 8) and 'double-float (for which they upgraded-array-element-type are '(unsigned-byte-8) and 'double-float, respectively) 17:32:14 on some implementation 17:32:19 <[6502]> of course 17:32:53 <[6502]> so in CL the type system is happy if the upgraded-array-element-type are the same? 17:33:12 so, the declaration (type (vector t) vector) is not to be used if you're expecting any kind of vector 17:33:37 but (vector *), which is the same as just vector 17:33:59 <[6502]> yeah... now I get it, i think 17:34:31 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-158-152.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:34:33 t is just a specialization for everything that is not otherwise specialized 17:35:19 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:50 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:01 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 -!- protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:37:31 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 17:38:57 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:10 -!- zermo [~user@109.53.115.147] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1] 17:46:48 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:48:29 -!- theron_ [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:39 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-52-53.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:42 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-52-53.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:21 -!- kanedank` [~user@c-24-62-3-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:52:51 fe[nl]ix: Hey there. I've really enjoyed using iolib this weekend but struggled with some of the functions that work on FILE-PATHs in iolib.os. (e.g. mapdir, walk-directory, list-directory, etc) 17:54:15 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 -!- [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:55:06 fe[nl]ix: I was thinking of adding a keyarg for using namestrings or pathnames instead. Or adding a do-files macro like so: https://github.com/redline6561/coleslaw/blob/master/src/coleslaw.lisp#L8 17:55:21 fe[nl]ix: Would you be open to such a patch? Thanks for iolib, btw. :) 17:58:35 where would you like to use pathnames ? 17:59:05 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59:19 In lambdas or functions I pass to mapdir that don't understand file-path 17:59:47 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has left #lisp 18:00:02 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 I didn't see a simple way to convert from FILE-PATH -> PATHNAME or namestrings ...and the functions I was using didn't know how to handle your new type. 18:00:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:00:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 fe[nl]ix: For example, see: https://github.com/redline6561/coleslaw/commit/4b264e258777f4ed8cca3775c2b5b533e6801206 18:01:17 redline6561_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pn.htm 18:01:17 That was the original usage that was giving me trouble and led to my writing do-files. 18:01:25 jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-65-199-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 18:01:52 jasom: I am familiar with what a pathname is. mapdir and list-directory in iolib.os return a list of FILE-PATHs not PATHNAMEs. 18:02:05 oh, I missed part of the conversation, sorry 18:02:47 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-75-142-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:05:29 Spion [~spion@46.217.23.204] has joined #lisp 18:06:39 redline6561_: iolib.os:file-path-namestring sounds like it does the right thing... 18:06:40 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06:48 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 18:07:09 fe[nl]ix jasom: It does but I would like an option that doesn't involve me wrapping every usage of mapdir with something to convert the type to "the right thing". 18:08:12 Just to make it more painless/seamless. My thought was to write a patch that either added do-files or added a keyarg to mapdir. 18:08:35 If there's a preference or a reason not to, I'd appreciate knowing. 18:08:39 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:09:09 redline6561_: why don't you use file-path objects everywhere ? 18:09:25 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:32 compile-template isn't code I wrote. It's code from cl-closure-template. 18:10:32 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:35 And I would like to have the option of not wrapping with file-path-namestring. I appreciate that you had reasons for writing file-path instead of using pathnames but I don't know what those reasons were. 18:11:47 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:01 It has been a joy to use aside from this one difficulty. 18:12:55 it's because CL pathnames are a big PITA 18:13:12 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:21 fe[nl]ix: I agree. Would it be reasonable to include some compatibility for all the non-file-path-aware code out there? 18:13:30 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:33 (i.e. an arg to return namestrings) 18:13:43 flavioribeiro_ [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 no 18:14:17 Okay. Thanks for your time. 18:14:20 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:25 I can accept pathnames, but won't return them 18:16:09 Will you return namestrings? Most library code I know of handles both but not file-paths. mapdir is much more useful if it can interoperate with said libraries. 18:18:48 e.g. http://paste.lisp.org/display/131134 18:19:40 where's? block nil? where's tagbody? 18:19:48 s/first ?// 18:20:38 It's a naive implementation/sketch. 18:21:44 It appears that this goes against the philosophy of iolib. Sorry for the intrusion. I just didn't know about file-path and wanted a way for new users to interact with the system with fewer gotchas. 18:25:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:26:22 redline6561_: in what way ? 18:26:56 fe[nl]ix: Sorry, what are you referring to? 18:27:21 "against the philosophy of iolib" 18:28:06 I should've just authored a patch and sent a pull request. iolib.os is very pleasant to use and has replaced my need for cl-fad and external-program simultaneously. I like that. 18:29:08 I want to be able to express (loop for file in (list-directory foo) do (bar)) or equivalent simply. I had difficulties with code that either A) didn't know about file-paths which is what mapdir and list-directory operate on/return. or B) Needed absolute paths. 18:30:20 I'm open to doing that any number of ways but I think it would be nice if it was in iolib and documented. I want to recommend this library to people. 18:30:29 That's all. :) 18:30:31 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:32:01 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:31 -!- Spion is now known as Guest7815 18:34:48 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:35:27 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 -!- setmeaway [oosool3@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:29 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 18:37:30 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 18:37:30 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-hkoopjjltqwsmegu] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:39:12 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-65.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:24 bitonic [~user@217.41.231.187] has joined #lisp 18:45:06 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:28 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:47:15 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:11 -!- jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-65-199-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:56:39 -!- WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:09 -!- jcubed [~jaj@199.180.145.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:43 -!- Guest7815 is now known as Spion 19:00:55 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:02:44 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:03:02 -!- Spion [~spion@46.217.23.204] has quit [Changing host] 19:03:03 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:06:22 ljos [~bjarte@c51384BC1.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:51 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:48 Sgeo_ [~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:48 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:49 redline6561_: did you try cl-fad yet? 19:08:02 jjkola [~androirc@193-64-20-29-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 19:08:05 http://weitz.de/cl-fad/ 19:08:18 see http://weitz.de/cl-fad/#walk-directory, I think 19:08:48 I'm familiar with cl-fad. I was hoping to make iolib.os my one stop shop as it does everything I need. I'll just have to work around this one issue and blog about it so people don't get tripped on this. 19:09:03 That is, when I need to list a directory I often need run-program too. 19:11:18 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:11:24 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 19:11:45 jcubed [~jaj@199.180.145.100] has joined #lisp 19:12:46 Hi - I've been looking at "The roots of lisp" by Graham. It says that it is possible to define a rudementary lisp with seven primitives: quote, atom, eq, car, cdr, cons and cond. I am sorry, but I can't figure out to define eval from that. It seems to me that lambda is also needed. Is there anyone who could explain this for me? 19:14:11 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-asvnnjdycsbnccaj] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 (defun eval (thing) (cond ((eq (car thing) (quote lambda)) ...) ...)) 19:14:45 ljos: well eval is the function being defined in terms of those 7 primitives (so thats why eval is left out) 19:15:12 But how does it recurse? 19:15:38 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:15:45 doesn't he have source code? I forget the specifics 19:15:49 Bike: But if I define it with defun then I am using things that is outside of the language? 19:15:56 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp yeah, there we go. 19:16:02 ljos: it looks like if you keep reading it goes through pains to explain the rest and how it works 19:16:13 No, I don't don't think so. 19:16:28 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:16:33 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 I think it is missing the step where eval is defined in the terms of the 7 and not with defun, which is not defined yet. 19:17:05 And only the 7, not anything from CL. 19:17:19 ljos: I guess he meant primitives for the function bodies, in which case you would need lambda or defun or whatever for defining the functions themselves, yeah. 19:17:45 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:18:14 If I have lambda, then everything works because then I can make the Y-combinator and I don't have to worry about anything from CL. 19:18:21 you might look at http://www.cs.uni.edu/~wallingf/blog-images/code/jmc-lisp.scm which seems to have a slightly different explanation 19:18:34 it claims that McCarthy lisp also presupposed lambda 19:19:26 That makes sense. I got hung up in the wording of the Graham paper, it calls the 7 it's axioms. 19:19:53 -!- flavioribeiro_ is now known as flavioribeiro 19:19:59 Especially since the eval of lambda is defined it didn't make sense to me. 19:20:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:20:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:21:03 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:15 to people confused by Graham's "root of lisp". I found SICP interpreter much easier to grasp 19:23:23 it is developed very slowly, step by step throughout few chapters 19:24:16 Thanks for the help. I think it was mostly the wording of the paper that made me confused. 19:24:43 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:27:50 -!- bitonic [~user@217.41.231.187] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:29:39 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:07 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:35:29 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:37:03 minion: LiSP? 19:37:03 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 19:37:16 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 (incf LiSP) 19:38:18 (write-to-string (1+ (parse-integer "LiSP" :radix 36)) :base 36) => "LISQ" 19:38:33 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:39:23 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 mrSpec [~Spec@159-205-205-134.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@159-205-205-134.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:41:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:46:27 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 19:48:41 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Quit: Toodle doo!] 19:49:27 <[6502]> madnificient: did you actually check lispyscript or you just liked the idea? 19:49:43 it has "lisp" in the title, what's not to like? 19:51:05 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:51:51 <[6502]> stassats`: i find it hmmm... i can't find a word without being rude. So may be it's actually very good 19:52:21 so, you're anti-lisp? 19:52:42 <[6502]> stassats`: it depends... is that lisp? 19:53:31 it has "lisp" in the name, must be lisp then 19:55:05 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.196] has joined #lisp 19:56:05 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:56:28 ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:48 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:01:19 more proof that scheme and clojure aren't lisp. 20:01:21 but newLISP is. 20:01:25 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:01:52 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:03:22 how difficult is it to use lisp to create a website with, say php? 20:03:42 why would you use PHP if you have Lisp? 20:03:43 dsrguru [~dsr@ool-182ce173.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:04:03 php is easier to start with? 20:04:13 chitofan: but harder once you get started 20:04:18 then just use PHP 20:04:22 yes 20:04:23 that question doesn't make any sense 20:04:24 i realized 20:04:34 do you mean generating PHP with lisp, or serving PHP with a lisp-based server, or what 20:04:35 anyone know of a good vim plugin for commenting and uncommenting clojure code? nerdcommenter doesn't seem to handle multiple semicolons well. 20:04:41 oh i mean in comparison 20:04:47 for a beginner to get a website up and running 20:04:54 dsrguru: try #clojure 20:04:58 I'm surprised people think PHP is easier to get started with. Compare the quickstart guide for quicklisp vs the amount of configuration necessary to have a baseline usable LAMP installation. 20:05:09 chitofan: ideally people should be beginners for a short time 20:05:14 hmm, actually my brother set me up with a LAMP installation 20:05:16 chitofan: it's not as easy to google your way out 20:05:20 all i had to do was write the code 20:05:24 and test it out on his website 20:05:34 chitofan: so PHP is easier when someone does all the hard parts for you? 20:05:35 you can use lisp as cgi? 20:05:38 stassats`: I did, just pasted that without changing language name, but same question applies :) 20:05:41 how does that make PHP easier to get started with? 20:05:54 which is why im asking.. 20:06:03 dsrguru: well, just use emacs 20:06:15 -!- ljos [~bjarte@c51384BC1.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:06:25 chitofan: getting set up with CL and hunchentoot is practically a one-liner. 20:06:30 chitofan: http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm 20:06:36 im using lisp in a box 20:06:42 for a simple, databaseless web application, it's less effort to start with CL. 20:06:59 the problem is cheap hosting 20:07:06 stassats`: the editing model isn't powerful enough unless I use evil mode, which doesn't give me vim's macro=text duality 20:07:12 that link doesn't work bike 20:07:21 ill check it out later though thanks :) 20:07:26 worksforme 20:07:53 you viewed it using google cache? 20:08:22 dsrguru: by "not powerful" you mean "i'm not accostumed to it"? 20:08:25 chitofan: here is a simple hello world web app with restas: http://youtu.be/bxnwe16Bqyk 20:08:30 no, I actually loaded the page 20:08:46 well i dont know why you can view it but not me :( 20:08:48 restas is pretty gud kit 20:09:03 er s/gud/good 20:09:27 *j_king* is on anti-histamines for the next month or two; spelling may be affected. 20:09:50 stassats`: no, emacs keybindings are ingrained in my muscle memory, but emacs's default editing model isn't nearly as powerful as vim's 20:09:52 dsrguru: in emacs, lisp code = objects that can be moved around as structural units 20:10:04 stassats`: it takes more keystrokes to accomplish non-mode-specific edits in emacs 20:10:15 i think what i meant to say with my original question is 20:10:17 dsrguru: how many watts can vim keybindings generate? 20:10:18 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:10:22 haha 20:10:24 since i skipped the hard parts for getting started with php 20:11:11 sykopomp: same in vim but vim's text objects (which emacs's evil mode does very well) are composable with single key editing commands, which makes edits require fewer keystrokes 20:11:12 lisp in a box needs learning to use 20:11:36 oh forget it 20:11:42 dsrguru: I'm talking about paredit. 20:11:59 sykopomp: paredit.vim works equally well :) 20:12:02 chitofan: programming is an intellectual(sort of) activity, it requires learning almost by definition. 20:12:23 i have trouble articulating what i mean 20:12:33 i just want to learn lisp 20:12:49 but i have to work around lisp in a box 20:12:59 getting Lisp in a Box up and working shouldn't be hard, though it might be less trouble to just get a full environment, since iirc lisp in a box isn't maintained 20:13:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d869e36.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:02 chitofan: "can I do web development easily in Lisp?" -> "Yes" 20:13:18 chitofan: http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started 20:13:49 chitofan: "Where do I start?" -> "http://beta.quicklisp.org", "http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/" 20:14:03 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:47 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 any easy way to do it without running a separate web server? 20:15:20 chitofan: do not attempt to learn Common Lisp without quicklisp 20:15:35 ljos [~bjarte@c51384BC1.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:45 so i should uninstall lisp in a box and use this link? 20:15:48 http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-windows/ 20:15:51 *j_king* just messing around with elnode in emacs. fun stuff. 20:15:59 basically to use it instead of php 20:16:08 chitofan: it's essentially a package manager for lisp libraries and it will be the difference in you hating CL and loving it 20:16:31 qptain_Nemo: there's mod_lisp, but I don't think it's very used 20:17:00 thanks dsrguru 20:17:27 mod lisp is explained a little here: http://xach.livejournal.com/144475.html 20:17:45 kids these days, can't do anything without a package manager! 20:18:25 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:25 i see 20:18:26 thanks 20:18:32 I blame debian 20:18:33 i just wanted to start on the land of lisp exercises 20:18:36 without too much hassle 20:18:43 and i have no programming background whatsoever 20:18:50 so.. pardon my ignorance 20:19:03 Xach: will quicklisp ever come out of beta? 20:19:16 chitofan: that tutorial you linked should probably work alright 20:19:47 dsrguru: yes 20:20:56 *[6502]* remembers a nice article from Norvig about teaching yourself programming :-) 20:21:06 minion: 21 days? 20:21:06 21 days: "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years", an essay by Peter Norvig, available at http://norvig.com/21-days.html 20:21:24 Xach: what are the goals/conditions that will determine when? 20:21:45 teaching yourself programming is easy. just start programming. if you don't know something, read up on it. 20:21:48 pro version for paying customers? 20:21:59 dsrguru: manual, more metadata 20:22:06 i'm working on it (slowly) 20:22:15 <[6502]> j_king: reading is important... but IMO more important is writing 20:22:34 thanks so much for developing it 20:22:36 [6502]: indeed. though I'd caution to start small. easy to get ambitious given what computers can do today. 20:22:51 when i first started programming there wasn't much you could do with computers. 20:22:58 at least personal computers 20:23:02 <[6502]> j_king: I'd say an 8 bit processor is great :-D 20:23:23 [6502]: indeed! 8-bit lisp? ;) 20:23:48 i have another question, while im writing the code there is alot of things going on in the environment that i have no idea about 20:25:03 <[6502]> j_king: Nah... unfortunately I only discovered lisp quite recently (and I'm a bit mad with schools for not telling me anything about it). I started writing assembler on a 6502 (would have you guessed?)... actually assembling instuction by hand... 20:25:56 when you guys started out, did you learn through an IDE or ..? 20:26:16 chitofan: i used emacs and ilisp. slime is like ilisp but way better. 20:26:20 I had a commodore 20:26:49 started learning lisp or started learning programming? 20:27:01 pnkbst [~user@unaffiliated/pnkbst] has joined #lisp 20:27:08 oh, programming. when I started learning lisp I had already been a programmer for a good long while. 20:27:11 <[6502]> j_king: I've still quite a few neurons burnt in configurations that make me remember that for example "A9 00 9D 00 20" is "LDA #$00; STA $2000,X" (but luckily i'm not 100% sure about it now) 20:27:27 well, QBasic sort of counts as an IDE, so... yes? 20:27:33 haha [6502] +1 20:27:41 I've been trying to burn that into my brain lately. :) 20:27:46 chitofan: I started programming with a text editor and a command-line compiler 20:27:47 i forced myself to learn CL to win an argument that I eventually lost. 20:27:55 j_king: What argument? 20:27:58 +1 20:28:14 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-179-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:28:26 j_king: that you could learn it in a certain amount of time? 20:28:26 redline6561_: that python was a more practical language. 20:28:41 hmm. by what metric, practicality? ;) 20:29:06 [6502]: You may find a recent project of mine {horrifying,amusing,hilarious} http://github.com/redline6561/cl-6502 20:29:13 redline6561_: yeah.. that's the thing. it went on and on from there to which was 'better' etc. highly opinionated and subjective but I was eventually converted. 20:29:45 redline6561_: why does your nick say 6561 and not 6502 then? 20:29:53 hehe 20:29:55 <[6502]> redline6561_: hehehe... check out this ---> https://github.com/6502/js6502 20:29:57 it's not a reference to that. 20:30:04 i've had this nick for....15 years? 20:30:16 a long time. I don't even remember where the 6561 came from anymore. 20:30:29 thanks all for helping me 20:30:37 [6502] Nice! :) 20:30:37 hopefully i'll be able to ask better questions in time 20:30:41 <[6502]> redline6561_: it's a 6502 emulator but in Javascript, with JIT 20:31:31 <[6502]> redline6561_: not an interpreter... it actually compiles to javascript (and, thanks to V8, ultimately to native code... even if of course WAY not optimized) 20:31:38 sure. 20:31:43 -!- chitofan [dcff02a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.163] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:31:52 I need to look into that at some point for cl-6502. 20:31:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:09 But right now I'm distracted by other projects. And my first priority is to finish full NES emulation. 20:32:19 -!- dsrguru [~dsr@ool-182ce173.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:07 j_king: :) 20:33:08 it was Fade's fault. he's a stubborn fellow. 20:33:10 <[6502]> redline6561_: i think that a 6502 JIT emulator in CL would be feasible even if I guess that compiling speed is not a priority in implementations and therefore probably an issue with self-modifying programs 20:33:34 That's my thought. 20:33:49 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:33:58 now I am tainted and python's short-comings are incredibly obvious.. and itchy... 20:34:19 well, I did warn you that the road wasn't exactly sterling. ;) 20:35:50 hmm, if I have (with-slots ((foo ...)) (let ((foo )) ... (setq foo something))) is it per CLHS that a slot 'foo is set, and not lexical variable? 20:35:58 because it seems that slot is being set on lispworks 20:36:30 only at default optimization settings too, if I use debug 3, bug disappears 20:37:15 guys, what do you think about idea to have single-file modules (instead of minimum two files: foo.asd and foo.lisp)? 20:37:30 maxm: that sounds like a bug 20:37:38 Or it is not an improvement at all? 20:38:01 I would like to create small modules loadable by require 20:38:07 either in LW, or in your understanding of your code. 20:38:16 antonv: heh. you should contact Juan about that! 20:38:20 antonv: it's not an improvement 20:38:25 antonv: he's definitely opposed. 20:38:30 ok cool, will dig deeper 20:38:39 enu: why Juan? 20:38:51 maxm: I don't think you can even do that? I mean, with-slots probably expands into a symbol macrolet 20:38:53 ECL has a problem to load them. 20:39:13 Bike: yes, you can do that with a symbol macro 20:39:14 dunno why 20:39:39 ehu: ok, maybe I will ask him when will have an occasion 20:40:22 hm. 20:40:40 stassats`: you mean it doesn't worth to care about or it will make some harm? 20:40:40 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 maxm: i thought the behavior was to set the slots's value in the object at the end of the with-slots form. 20:40:53 antonv: the former 20:41:17 and it will make some harm because you could care about something else more worthwhile at that time 20:41:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:55 stassats`: only if I dont spend this time on something more harmful :)) 20:41:58 maxm: the CLHS seems to agree with me 20:42:24 Bike: considering the reason for symbol-macrolet's existence is with-slots/with-accessors, I would hope so. 20:42:33 maxm: wait, i misread 20:42:41 madnificent: that doesn't make s... ok 20:43:04 stassats`: timing, barely saved my skin 20:43:37 *[6502]* thought that with-slots was implemented using symbol-macrolet, and let hides globals and lexicals symbol macros... 20:43:49 sykopomp, stassats`: I thought you could setf/setq it but not establish a new lexical binding like that 20:44:48 <[6502]> Bike: I think you can... you're just not working with the slot in that context, however 20:45:38 Bike: symbol-macrolet 'bindings' can be shadowed by regular variables, just fine. 20:45:50 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:57 why would we have with-accessors then? 20:46:25 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:46:29 why would we have accessors? 20:46:54 why have classes at all? 20:47:02 and "then"? i don't see how that question follows from anything said above 20:47:03 sykopomp: but then maxm's example shouldn't set the slot, just the lexical binding 20:47:19 stassats`: vs with-slots 20:47:54 well, with-slots uses slots, with-accessors uses accessors, which are different 20:47:57 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:20 Bike: correct. 20:48:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:53 *madnificent* goes for a walk before his sleepy brain says more mentally retarded #$%&&*$ 20:49:32 sykopomp: oh, I thought maxm wanted the slot to be set, rather than the opposite. my mistake 20:51:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-1.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:34 <[6502]> Is there a function to insert an item in the middle of a list or of a vector? 20:54:13 <[6502]> middle = nth-position 20:54:39 -!- stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-55-96.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:56:17 brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 20:56:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:52 ok, I think its my screwup, for some reason I expected the LET to shadow the with-slots.. I think sbcl and ccl machinery used for optimized slot access, gets in a way, and for it lexical var is set not the slot 21:00:07 thats why I never found it until testing with lispworks 21:01:12 <[6502]> maxm: let should shadow with-slots ... may be the variable is special? 21:01:59 6502: ok, now I'm confused.. Its supposed to or not? 21:02:30 what I mean shadow it in the case of (setq var something) 21:03:03 <[6502]> maxm: it is supposed to shadow with-slot. CLHS says it expands to something equivalent to (symbol-macrolet ...) and a let shadows lexical symbol macros 21:03:15 var gets replaced with expanding of symbol-macrolet, which expands into (slot-value 'var) 21:03:36 [6502], not sure, but you could use nthcdr to make your own I think 21:03:43 if its supposed to, then I definitely found a bug with lispworks 21:03:44 (For lists) 21:03:46 <[6502]> maxm: but not inside the let... 21:04:09 maxm: the symbol-macrolet only applies when the symbol is referenced as a variable, so not as the binding name in a let 21:04:11 coz simply renaming the variable so name is different fixed my case.. Problem is reducing it to a minimum, its quite a hairy function 21:04:26 Oh, hmm, you'd need append which is inefficient (and weird with mutable stuff) 21:05:11 Sgeo_: if you still care about more reified environments, AMOP has some stuff that works with (imagined) reified environments; they get around the lack in CL with make-method-lambda which is kind of gross but works 21:05:36 <[6502]> maxm: (symbol-macrolet ((y 33)) (let ((y 12)) (print y))) must print 12 (and does in SBCL) 21:05:49 its definitely has to do with the optimzied slot access machinery, coz code did not change really, but bug showed up when i moved code from defmethod into a function 21:07:04 chitofan [dcff02a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.161] has joined #lisp 21:07:23 make-method-lambda considered harmful? 21:07:49 -!- ljos [~bjarte@c51384BC1.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:08:23 Sgeo_: well, yeah, the problem is that it takes a form, instead of a function, so you can't use closures, and that's all because of the lack of environments 21:08:47 *Sgeo_* isn't even entirely sure what it does at this point 21:09:05 jbytecode [4eb74fa5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.183.79.165] has joined #lisp 21:09:47 6502: thats thats how I always expected it to work 21:10:16 just tested minimum test case in lispworks, and it works as expected in minimum test case 21:11:04 <[6502]> maxm: are you sure it's not another enclosing macro that uses some broken code walking? 21:11:05 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 21:11:57 No, the use case for this code was that I did lots of calculations based on slots in a instance, so I had big (with-slots (a b c d) (let ((a a) (b b) (c c) (d d)) ...bunch of code...)) 21:13:36 it definitely somehow accesses the slot, I isolate it to specific expression, (basically it throws (+ NIL ) where NIL is one of above variables, and what I have in the beginning of the LET, is (when (null var) (setq var 0))) 21:13:58 problem is bug disappears when. a) stepping b) using (debug >1) 21:14:54 <[6502]> hmmm 21:15:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:15:34 *[6502]* is always dubious about alleged bugs in compilers (unless he wrote the compiler, that is) 21:16:13 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@42.88.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:16:58 *maxm* has no time to debug, so after confirming that changing var name fixes it, I got rid of with-slots, and did (let ((a (a-reader obj)) (b (b-reader obj))) ...).. 21:17:38 kanedank` [~user@c-24-62-3-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:42 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:53 <[6502]> maxm: it would be interesting to see the full macroexpansion of that with-slot... 21:19:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-21-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:18 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:44 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:20:55 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 21:23:54 abeaumont [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:22 WzTian [~WzTian@adsl-76-200-131-234.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:47 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:11 <[6502]> is nreverse a reasonable name even for a lisp in which the list object is a first class object not built from cons cells? reverse! looks ugly... 21:33:47 <[6502]> how is called the reverse function working on vectors? 21:33:50 *Sgeo_* thinks inconsistent naming schemes like not having a consistent way to identify functions which mutate stuff is ugly 21:36:15 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-ommunsvxtrretvsa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:28 *madnificent* thinks the editor should be able to color such functions, instead of them having a completely different name 21:36:29 *[6502]* was slapped in the face by #'sort 21:37:27 [6502]: wait, reverse and nreverse work on sequences, what does the representation of lists matter 21:37:53 I'd say there's something that makes me feel uncomfortable about relying on an intelligent editor to work with a language, but I like Smalltalk, so 21:38:04 (Well, like Smalltalk in some ways, dislike it in others) 21:39:05 <[6502]> Bike: I thought 'n' was for non-consing. With list as a first-class object the point is not saving memory, but reversing a specific object (that may be referenced by other places) 21:39:41 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:50 *Sgeo_* wants a language like Clojure but without the JVM underlying it 21:40:05 abeaumont [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 <[6502]> Sgeo_: then you get nothing. The only way the purist Clojure can exists is because someone else is actually doing the real work 21:40:36 [6502]: I think the naming convention for destructive functions is total arbitrariness, I wouldn't worry about it 21:40:38 Sgeo_: clojure compiles to javasript now :) 21:41:01 -!- jcubed [~jaj@199.180.145.100] has quit [Quit: jcubed] 21:41:06 <[6502]> pavelpenev: and that's a good thing? 21:41:35 I like the JVM way more than i like JS, so no. 21:41:42 [6502], Haskell exists, it doesn't use the JVM 21:42:03 6502 ?! 21:42:18 who would have such a nick 21:42:25 but Sgeo_ wanted clojure without the JVM, and it exists, recently it was also ported to C 21:43:22 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host86-173-123-205.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 21:43:34 [6502]: backed off a bit, it expands into (let ((temp ,obj) (symbol-macrolet ((slot (slot-value temp 'slot))) ..) body)) 21:43:42 (there's a clojure port to python as well, I think) 21:43:51 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 21:43:58 <[6502]> Clojure purism reminds me those peace activists that only sing love and smell flowers... because someone rude, ugly and with guns is in charge to keep the order necessary for them to be able to sing 21:43:59 I tried for 5 minutes to reduce it to simpler test case, but could not sorry.. Only happens with original function 21:44:31 -!- ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:32 (also, a ton of other clos de jour) 21:44:33 [6502]: i don't think it's guaranteed that the original object will be modified, it's allowed. so you should always use the result, not the assume the non-consing version has changed the original correctly 21:44:56 you like clojure -> happy clojuring, 21:45:24 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:46:14 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:46:14 <[6502]> maxm: That's exactly what CLHS says, and symbol macros (both global and lexical) must be shadowed by let forms. So it must be quite a nasty bug... 21:46:19 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:48:43 <[6502]> madnificent: yes... for nreverse of common lisp. Like i said nreverse is about being efficient. What would be good names for a function returning a vector in reverse order and on that instead reverses a vector inplace? 21:48:58 <[6502]> and on = and one 21:50:07 <[6502]> Sgeo_: I tried reading about haskell three times. All the times I fell asleep while reading the explanation about monads... 21:50:51 "when someone tells me of monads i want to punch them in gonads" (c) me 21:50:53 ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:33 I love monads 21:51:50 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.66.109] has joined #lisp 21:51:56 *maxm* rolls out the over the internet gonad punching machine 21:52:05 -!- jbytecode [4eb74fa5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.183.79.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:37 *[6502]* feels sleepy 21:52:38 *pavelpenev* wishes he had to study monads right now, instead he has to learn about smooth manifolds and Frenet-Serret formulas and shit. 21:54:33 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:54:43 I should try to get the Tardis monad to work in CL 21:54:47 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:54 Although admittedly that would require me understanding it, which I don't 21:54:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:15 steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ongiecmcsrbshevq] has joined #lisp 21:56:00 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-asvnnjdycsbnccaj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:00 -!- steffi_s_ is now known as steffi_s 21:57:05 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-193-156.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:59:11 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-196-151.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:59:30 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 22:02:36 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:03:05 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:06:04 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-129-68.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:32 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:34 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.246.226] has joined #lisp 22:09:40 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:11:08 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:00 "But it comes at a cost: as in Clojure symbols inside backquote are eagerly resolved in the namespace, where macros are defined, there are a lot of subtle issues, like this one." 22:12:15 I.... how is that any different from CL? 22:12:22 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9611821/macros-clojure-vs-common-lisp 22:14:28 Sgeo_: it looks like in clojure symbols are looked up in whatever namespace is there at runtime, as opposed to CL's using the package of the macro (to misuse words...) 22:14:35 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-229-92.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:15:01 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:15:10 ...what does CL do? 22:15:38 And how can I observe the difference? By writing (defmacro someotherpackage:mymacro ...)? 22:15:46 Or am I not understanding 22:16:12 what I mean is, say you have (defmacro foo ... bar ...) such that bar is quoted. If you evaluate this in the "BLETCH" package, bar will be BLETCH:BAR (or something like that, depending on the exact packages used etc.) 22:16:32 whereas in clojure, if I'm reading it right, bar won't be associated with a namespace until you call foo 22:19:43 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:20:36 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:48 sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:25:49 -!- sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [Client Quit] 22:25:58 sambio_ [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:28:30 <[6502]> I found necessary to introduce a reader macro #"name" that interns a symbol to be used at macroexpansion time when the current package is the one containing the macro call. 22:36:04 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:03 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:55 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:44:12 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@c-67-164-149-139.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 22:45:28 <[6502]> DANG!!!! 22:46:16 <[6502]> undo-tree messed up my source!!!... random pieces from my undo history all over the place 22:47:59 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:49:22 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:50 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 22:50:27 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:50:50 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:53:13 chitofan: if you want to use lisp like php, have a look at LSP: http://sourceforge.net/projects/lsp/ 22:53:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:08 j_king: have a look at plisp http://www.flownet.com/ron/plisp.html 22:56:14 chitofan: when I started programming there was no notion of IDE. Later I programmed one myself. 22:56:41 and now see the damage it did to his brain :~( 22:58:13 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:38 i wrote my first (non-lisp) applications in notepad too 22:58:54 http://www.goldsoftware.ru/files/imagecache/image_original/files/images/BC%202.png Ah, memories :) 22:59:10 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:22 pavelpenev: now you mention it! dos's edit! that's the first one i used i think 22:59:55 pavelpenev: turbo pascal was gold :) 23:02:51 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ongiecmcsrbshevq] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:03:07 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:38 [6502]: you can insert with (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq new-elements sequence :start start :end start) 23:06:49 what's wrong with calling #'search and #'replace? 23:07:50 HaskellHacker [625504e6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.85.4.230] has joined #lisp 23:08:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.235.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:29 Sgeo_: you can "easily" write a Clojure implementation targetting CL. 23:08:59 madnificent: [6502] wanted to insert a subseq of greater length, I think, like (1 2) => (1 3 2) 23:09:17 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 23:10:24 [6502]: about nreverse, there's one thing you're correct about, is that it can be defined as (setf (symbol-function 'nreverse) (symbol-function 'reverse)) ; and similarly for most other couples of non-consing/consing functions. 23:11:01 Bike: ahok. then i'd implement it for licensing, but it does make sense in that case 23:12:33 madnificent: what do you think replace-subseq does? 23:12:53 madnificent: but otherwise, what's wrong in calling search and replace, is that it won't be as optimized as replace-subseq. 23:12:58 and as debugged. 23:13:02 arrsim [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:13:37 Bike: and replace-subseq works with inserting sequences of different sizes (even empty, so it can remove subsequences). 23:14:00 right. 23:14:05 pjb: i said it made sense aside from the licensing in that case! 23:14:52 ok 23:14:53 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 23:15:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:49 -!- ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:14 [6502]: so, if you want a reverse function that really modifies a vector you have to write it yourself. 23:17:46 [6502]: (defun really-reverse (seq) (replace seq (nreverse seq))) 23:18:30 erm, that might not be correct for lists. 23:18:57 (defun really-reverse (seq) (replace seq (if (listp seq) (reverse seq) (nreverse seq))))\ 23:19:10 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:53 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.235.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:59 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:44 -!- sambio_ is now known as sambio 23:35:36 pjb: why doesn't nreverse work on lists? 23:36:20 jasom: nreverse works on lists, but it destroys the original sequence. 23:36:42 nreverse may change the order of the cons cell arbitrarily, so (replace seq (nreverse seq)) may not work: you can just get the first cons cell. 23:36:43 madnificent: right, and same is true of vectors though 23:36:51 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:01 Yes, but when it's true on vector, it does what we want :-) 23:37:11 ah 23:37:12 I get it 23:37:14 jasom: yes, but the vector can't reorder the cons cells. so if you walk over it again, you can set the same values back 23:37:42 why not just (setq seq (nreverse seq)) 23:38:18 because nreverse can be defined as (setf (symbol-function 'nreverse) (symbol-function 'reverse)). 23:38:51 Also, nothing specifies that if it modifies one vector, it won't return a fresh vector for another. 23:39:42 oh, we specifically don't want to return a fresh vector? But won't the replace version create a fresh vector and then copy it in this theoretical nreverse implementation? 23:39:50 Yes. 23:39:58 that's why I named it really-reverse. 23:40:35 hmm if you need that then you're managing state inside a vector which I try to avoid. 23:40:48 *madnificent* would've went with reversef, but it would do something slightly different 23:40:50 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:40:51 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-158-152.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:40:56 A lot of CL functions are like that: they don't specify the "traditional" or expected implementation, but allow implementations to implement different algorithms, with different side effects. 23:41:17 pjb: I know how nreverse works, I just don't know why you would ever want really-reverse 23:41:18 So if you want specific results, notably, for nfunctions on lists, a specific processing of the cons cells, you have to write it yourself. 23:41:47 Ask [6502]. 23:43:25 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:03 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:11 jasom: but almost everywhere you use nreverse on a vector, you most probably want a really-reverse. You should check all your use of nreverse on vectors for conformity. 23:44:44 pjb: it only matters if somewhere non-locally there are live references to the vector, right? 23:44:55 Yes. 23:45:09 well I don't do that, if at all possible 23:45:36 -!- [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has left #lisp 23:45:43 Hello 23:45:44 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 23:46:03 hello HaskellHacker 23:46:32 <[6502]> i lost the coding of the whole night :-( 23:46:33 and if I have a live reference somewhere else, then destructively modifying it out from under me is almost certainly not what I want, whether I have garbage or a reversed vector 23:46:53 <[6502]> damn undo tree 23:46:59 [6502]: why? 23:47:00 oh 23:47:22 <[6502]> and idiot me in trusting that crap 23:47:23 *jasom* uses vim 23:47:32 *madnificent* uses git 23:47:39 because that is actually a solution 23:47:48 well that too 23:47:56 <[6502]> madnificent: i use git too... that's why only lost one night 23:47:59 going many hours without a commit is bad 23:48:02 oh, and i have this crazy theory that 'saving' isn't the worst thing to do 23:48:06 [6502]: :D 23:48:41 git commit -m "This doesn't actually compile, so squash it out before publishing" 23:48:46 [6502]: I love undotree, what happened? 23:49:27 <[6502]> kanedank`: do you use keyboard macros (F3/F4)? 23:50:03 nope, haven't gotten that emacsen level yet 23:50:17 <[6502]> kanedank`: undo-tree destroyed my source... all of a sudden there where random pieces of undo history all over the place.... 23:50:27 <[6502]> kanedank`: and this happended at save time 23:50:46 <[6502]> kanedank`: and by default backups are disabled if the directory is under source control 23:51:15 [6502]: why would backups be turned off? why not just have a .ignore? 23:51:17 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@42.88.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:51:40 [6502]: indeed, have you checked your blah~ file? 23:51:52 so did undotree "crash"? 23:52:00 VeganRhino [~quassel@ip72-201-177-173.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:02 [6502]: M-x recover-this-file 23:52:07 <[6502]> madnificent: i searched the whole disk :-( 23:53:23 Any beginners here? 23:54:08 VeganRhino: feel free to ask questions, but beginners are can be found in #lispcafe too (though it seems they mostly just come here) 23:54:23 -!- DT`` [~ea@host233-153-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:50 DT`` [~ea@host233-153-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:56:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:57:13 VeganRhino, I'm not sure what I count as 23:57:14 just completed siebel. want to take part in community and good programming practice. Am I in the right place? 23:57:30 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:49 VeganRhino: sure 23:57:55 VeganRhino: you are! :) 23:58:16 VeganRhino: if you haven't discovered quicklisp yet, be sure to do so now for all your library needs. 23:58:25 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-65.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:58:25 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:58:50 Oh thanks. I'll check it out. 23:59:28 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:41 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp