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foom2 [jknight@nat/google/x-fkdwcedgpenmiegf] has joined #lisp 00:32:18 basso [~quassel@pc5038.stdby.hin.no] has joined #lisp 00:32:50 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:33:23 ForABetterWorld [~Twiner@c-75-68-114-141.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:25 http://guardianlv.com/2012/08/why-america-needs-gary-johnson/ http://www.garyjohnson2012.com Hi sorry I'm spamming but its important! 00:33:32 -!- ForABetterWorld [~Twiner@c-75-68-114-141.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:34:20 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 00:35:23 goatse taught me to never trust a stranger's link. 00:37:41 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 00:39:18 -!- cmbntr_ [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:18 -!- arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:39:18 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 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joined #lisp 04:51:43 eveing 04:51:44 evening 04:54:17 Evening. :) 04:56:07 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:56:31 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 04:58:47 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-152-23.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:02 pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:58 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-152-23.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:13:27 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:14:39 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:46 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:16:12 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by 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#lisp 07:03:57 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-140-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:58 snearch [~snearch@p5797A8BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:22 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:08:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:35 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:14:21 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 07:20:07 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:22:23 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 07:25:21 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:25:31 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:25:32 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 07:27:14 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 07:32:30 I'm going to ask here too, in the hope that someone can give me a tip: What should I name my project which is a small library on top of Hunchentoot to help build ajax web applications 07:33:01 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 07:34:09 Cheepnis 07:34:32 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:34:43 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 07:34:43 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:51 ammonia 07:34:59 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:35:37 I was thinkinf clajax, but it shounds like some kind of disease :-) 07:36:12 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wrssyrawvibjyogs] has joined #lisp 07:36:32 guess it doesn't mean much if you're not a hardcore zappa fan. an informative name is probably better than a joke 07:37:19 I have never listened to zappa :-) 07:39:04 eni 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5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:15:40 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 08:15:41 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:17:08 loke_erc: clamonia sounds good. 08:18:06 brendyn [brendyn@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 08:18:26 ehu [~ehuels@31.138.100.56] has joined #lisp 08:20:11 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust329.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:26 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 08:23:26 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:24:16 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:25:34 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:28:33 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:32:38 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:29 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5797A8BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:33:57 cordoval [~cordoval@200.106.25.251] has joined #lisp 08:34:03 pocket_i [~masato@113.36.199.254] has joined #lisp 08:34:10 can someone help me here with a linux shell script? 08:34:22 very simple if [ "$1" != "" ]; then echo "" else br=$(git ph -n 2 2>&1) || br="" echo "$br"fi 08:34:45 cordoval: you are in the wrong channel. 08:34:52 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 08:34:55 which channel is for linux shell? 08:34:57 cordoval: we don't like pasted lisp code here, and much less so pasted shell code. 08:35:13 cordoval: this is also not the "irc channel information" channel. just sayin. 08:35:36 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:35:49 Is there any good library to use ANSI color escape-sequence on Terminal with CommonLisp? 08:35:55 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 08:36:01 cordoval: but if i were you, i'd try #linux for a start 08:36:23 -!- cordoval [~cordoval@200.106.25.251] has left #lisp 08:37:23 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:38:29 pocket_i: have a look at https://github.com/chaitanyagupta/termcolor 08:39:04 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:39:54 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.177.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:40:13 H4ns: Thanks! I'll try it. 08:41:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:45:01 -!- anon119 [~bman@c-67-181-158-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:52:28 ludston [~patience@CPE-58-166-72-98.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:54:20 pocket_i: that said, why do you insist on ANSI escapes? Are you sure your terminal uses them? Why not use terminfo instead? 08:54:59 pjb: welcome to 2012 08:55:29 The year we break everything? 08:56:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5cOwgcRVv4 08:57:28 Hmm.. Is there any good library to use terminfo from CL? 08:59:28 There's one. 08:59:45 http://www.cliki.net/Terminfo 08:59:49 Use cliki.net! 08:59:54 Oh... I found just "terminfo" on QuickLisp!! Thanks :-) 09:02:34 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-192-150.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:03:22 -!- pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pulse40] 09:03:40 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:11:29 -!- pocket_i [~masato@113.36.199.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:11:46 pocket_i [~masato@113.36.199.254] has joined #lisp 09:12:47 mskou72 [~mskou@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:14:55 Demosthenes [~demo@m832c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:29 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:19:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:22:10 hmm, is there an index for all the FORMAT operations? meaning how do i look up e.g. "D" 09:22:21 (if i didn't know what it did, that is) 09:22:42 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-5.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:48 <|3b|> you can use http://l1sp.org/cl/~d 09:24:07 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-123.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:13 <|3b|> or in slime, C-c C-d ~ 09:26:25 woah, nice docs redirect service 09:27:44 okay, thanks 09:29:44 apropos docs, do we have somewhere something like lisp hyperspec but with modern interface? (by modern I mean like this http://ruby-docs.com/docs/ruby_1.9.3/index.html or that http://erldocs.com/R15B/ (note: i'm not advocating anything, just working examples)) 09:30:15 live search is really useful for learning 09:30:45 dRbiG: no. the cl spec's license is too restrictive for people to actually republish it in a better format. 09:30:58 the format directives are indexed in the hyperspec glossary under non-alphabetic 09:31:20 s/glossary/master index/ 09:31:53 H4ns: that's unfortunate, and a bit sad 09:32:12 dRbiG: very much so. 09:32:13 i have a feeling that better access to docs would benefit everyone 09:32:27 mal__: indeed, thats also useful; i'm still missing a way to directly find the "V" modifier though 09:32:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:33:11 dRbiG: my main interface to the hyperspec is via slime-documentation-lookup to launch a local copy of the hyperspec to the page for a given symbol 09:33:15 <|3b|> V is generic, so documented along with ' 09:33:30 <|3b|> towards the beginning of the format chapter 09:33:49 <|3b|> clhs 22.3 09:33:49 Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 09:33:54 i know 09:33:59 Vivitron`: is this slime-documentation-lookup built-in by default (i have slime installed via quicklisp)? 09:34:07 dRbiG: Kent Pitman wrote an essay about this somewhere, but the hyperspec is a privately funded document that has the same technical info as the actual spec 09:35:00 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:36:09 it's just that if someone (a colleague) wants to look this up he'd have to find it there first ... but yeah that would probably be best anyway 09:36:19 dRbiG: I think that function is built in, and there is some minimal setup to point it at a local copy of the hyperspec (to make it fast) and a one liner to choose which browser emacs uses 09:36:52 Vivitron`: okay, i'll note that down for lookup, thanks 09:38:17 dRbiG: yes, I didn't keep track of the instructions I used but it was easy to do, shouldn't take more than a few minutes 09:38:43 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.191.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m832c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:40:40 Demosthenes [~demo@m832c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:43 "it just takes a few minutes" is pathetically worse then, say, clicking on http://ruby-docs.com/docs/ruby_1.9.3/index.html 09:40:46 *sigh* 09:40:51 dRbiG: also, for the other sort of lookup (what exists, rather than what does it do), note the hyperspecs structure: one chapter for each "thing", each chapter has a "dictionary" section which lists the associated symbols 09:41:36 H4ns: agreed. 09:43:35 H4ns: wouldn't call it 'pathetically worse'. if you develop then having lookup from the editor is much much better. but if you want to quickly explore then having a browser with live search is better 09:44:20 dRbiG: that depends on how you work. i find web lookups to be part of my workflow, much more than in-editor documentation. 09:46:14 H4ns: yes, so do I, but I can imagine that someone who already knows lisp well enough to know how to do what he wants and what symbols he need, the in-editor lookup is much better (as you know the symbol, you may need to lookup only arguments etc.). 09:46:55 anyway, the best is to have both ways available 09:48:45 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:50:35 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:50:52 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:58 I actually do like the in editor documentation quite a lot, I meant to agree that "some setup required" is a real cost 09:52:07 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:21 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:22 -!- jtza8 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[~Alfredo@84.Red-79-154-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:54:58 Alice4 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:45 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust329.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:11 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:03:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:03:49 Wish there was synchronious C-c C-k 11:04:33 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04:38 coz I recorded a macro that does C-s C-c C-k, switch to repl, run test, but because c-c c-k is async, the test still runs old code, because c-c c-k takes a second or two 11:07:42 maxm: you can add a hook 11:07:47 Just add the hook to: slime-compilation-finished-hook 11:07:56 That one is run when the compilation has finished 11:08:08 yea but its a bother.. :-) turning 5 second hack into 5 minute one 11:08:27 maxm: Ah comon. Are you an emacs user or not? 11:08:31 yea 11:08:57 I spent a friggin' week coming up with lisp code to allow me to send outlook-styled replies in gnus 11:09:11 A true emacs user never backs down from a challenge 11:09:17 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:09:17 hmm, whats outlook styled? 11:09:53 The previous email chain being attached to your email, all in HTML and with inline images preserved 11:10:09 Also, the part I posted should be HTML (formatted by Muse) 11:10:22 I uploaded here: 11:10:22 http://code.google.com/p/gnus-outlook-style/ 11:11:03 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:11:08 pretty cool, I'll take a look at it.. Tho I'm wanderlust guy, gnus lost me with its too heaviness sometime 5 years ago 11:11:33 I'm sure my code can be adopted to wanderlust as well 11:11:49 I presume wanderlust uses the same stadnard email-send thingy as gnus? 11:11:59 it uses w3m-mime stuff 11:12:09 All it needs is a way to access the raw message data from the message to which you are replying 11:12:21 yea it has that 11:12:53 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:02 The actual mail parsing and transofrmation is cone in CL 11:13:08 done 11:13:13 as an external program 11:13:55 yea i cloned it.. Nice example, I tried doing quick parse scripts in CL, but always gave up after a few hours and went back to BeatifulSoup.py 11:14:37 I dunno. I parse the HTML into a DOM tree using Closure-HMTL and then I just proess it with cxml and xpath 11:16:02 posting reply using this to emacs-devel will cause rms to have heart attack :-) 11:16:31 Haha 11:16:34 yeah :-) 11:16:57 thanks, added to my todo pile for wanderlust to integrate it. 11:17:20 I wish there was a decent tagsoup library for EL 11:17:57 It's a bit annoyin ghaving to call out to an external application. I was looking at how Gnus is handling similar issues, and they are using an unholy message of regexpes 11:18:07 s/message/mess 11:22:07 am0c [~am0c@211.192.91.218] has joined #lisp 11:23:29 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 11:25:27 hard to do in lisp.. Python does not have macros, but it does almost every reference through indirect hash lookup, including method calls and dict lookups 11:26:06 so its easy to monkeypatch runtime, to hookup what a.b or a(b) does at runtime 11:27:31 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@40.Red-83-61-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:28:44 Rajesh [~Rajesh@117.203.20.182] has joined #lisp 11:28:49 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:29:00 -!- Rajesh [~Rajesh@117.203.20.182] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:29:26 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.140.84] has joined #lisp 11:32:32 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@68.Red-79-152-15.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:08 smokecfh [~user@5ED1C58F.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 11:37:22 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:37:56 gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has joined #lisp 11:41:14 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:41:21 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:04 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:47:09 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:13 revhwar [~Revhvwerj@117.203.20.182] has joined #lisp 11:48:27 -!- revhwar [~Revhvwerj@117.203.20.182] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:54:10 -!- wuehli [~wuehlmaus@freeshell.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:55:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-156-143.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:08 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:57:46 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.138.242] has joined #lisp 11:58:17 for what its worth, here is my synchronious C-c C-k hack: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131070 11:58:38 works as intended, macro continues if compilation succesful, or aborts if there was an error 12:01:46 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 12:03:56 hmm and paste.lisp.org tween button is borked, when its short url starts with + 12:18:04 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:18:35 revhwar [~Revhvwerj@117.203.20.182] has joined #lisp 12:18:47 -!- revhwar [~Revhvwerj@117.203.20.182] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:20:34 not having access to synchronous timeouts to wait operations in bordeaux-threads is painful H4ns: (whine "i don't like to see XML syntax in #lisp") 12:26:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 to put it bluntly: timeouts in portable common lisp are basically unavailable 12:27:12 H4ns: could that be something for madeira? 12:27:22 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.139.33] has joined #lisp 12:27:45 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:50 madnificent: i think that madeira is something that only want to discuss after it exists. 12:28:13 -!- Jei [~Jei@host-95-199-17-197.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:28:55 Jei [~Jei@host-95-199-11-227.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:12 H4ns: a change in standard-available-features is something that seems worthy of discussion before a library is released as well as after. but the current pain stays the same indeed. 12:32:40 madnificent: is there a design document for madeira? 12:36:08 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-76-117-4-243.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 12:40:52 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:41:26 mmmh, hacky timed-wait-for-notification: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131072 12:42:54 H4ns: ask nikodemus, i don't know. there was a page containing what he had finished os far, but i don't know where that is at either. 12:43:43 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:47 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:24 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@cs181193108.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:46:07 -!- pnathan` [~user@75.87.250.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:23 pnathan` [~user@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 12:50:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@211.192.91.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:51:19 am0c [~am0c@211.192.91.218] has joined #lisp 12:53:18 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:51 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:00:44 H4ns: doesn't it feel nice to have low-friction releases? 13:01:12 Xach: absolutely! it is totally great. i'm really wanting to make more releases now :) 13:01:26 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-41-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:02:07 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:02:28 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:56 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:57 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:08:57 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 13:10:37 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:47 H4ns: i'll test the new drakma with zs3, which is quite sensitive to url encoding 13:11:59 maybe you'll have a chance to make a new release as a result! it's the least i can do! 13:12:20 Xach: that is very kind of you, thanks a lot! 13:12:35 *H4ns* proactively types "sh ../make-release.sh" 13:13:21 agumonkey [~agu@86.70.158.191] has joined #lisp 13:14:07 is the release-system shared somewhere? 13:14:31 madnificent: no. it is a very primitive script that just had to be written. it is specific to my own needs. 13:14:45 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 ok. it seems to make sense to automate as much of the administration around it 13:15:37 madnificent: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131073 13:18:20 H4ns: very nice! 13:19:30 -!- pnathan` [~user@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:20:14 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:21:02 *Xach* scowls 13:21:06 mine is written in common lisp! 13:21:36 *Xach* discovers a big problem with his WITH-SKIPPING macro, as it inhibits interactive interruption 13:21:37 Xach: annotate the paste! 13:24:08 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:53 Yes, writing bash scripts is so 90's 13:24:59 Write scripts in clisp! 13:25:06 pjb: i'm not writing bash scripts 13:25:28 bash or sh, same file. 13:25:36 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:25:53 *H4ns* takes a pride to write bourne shell. 13:26:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131073#1 -- the guts (there is a lot of support code) 13:28:05 -!- mskou72 [~mskou@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:28:57 my favorite support code is the function that generates candidate successive versions 13:29:14 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 e.g. (foo "1.2.7") => ("1.2.7.1" "1.2.8" "1.3" "2") 13:30:00 tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:18 "10" "X"? 13:30:30 this isn't solaris or mac os 13:31:12 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.137] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:31:47 even for solaris it's actually classic numbering most of the time 13:32:09 5.X(u|\.)Y 13:32:46 OSX is again 10.x.y :) 13:33:16 *rudi* tries to page in ancient CVS knowledge 13:33:24 *p_l* thinks only VMS has deceptively simple numbering. Then you try to apply updates and it complains, because it wants V8.4, not F8.4 13:37:42 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.21] has joined #lisp 13:37:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.21] has quit [Changing host] 13:37:43 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:40:21 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:40:22 Xach: you should also add 1.3.0, 2.0 and 2.0.0 13:42:23 any number of trailing .0 bits are allowed in a different part of the program 13:42:39 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:32 pnathan [~user@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 cool 13:43:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.139.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:45:05 *Xach* was just happy to be able to write (maplist 'reverse (reverse parts)) at the end 13:46:00 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 13:46:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:47:18 ehu [~ehuels@31.136.181.18] has joined 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pskosinski [~pk@83.19.206.186] has joined #lisp 14:47:52 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:11 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-bpqwfuixjxuketiw] has joined #lisp 14:53:27 Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@31.136.181.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:57:42 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:30 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:40 airolson [~airolson@67.210.173.114] has joined #lisp 15:13:02 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.148.203.122] has joined #lisp 15:20:21 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 15:22:30 H4ns: hmmm, clsql-postgresql-socket has stopped working 15:22:38 *Xach* wonders what's up 15:23:00 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-99-99.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:23:03 interesting. i wonder about that, too, as the changes were additive (?) 15:23:48 I don't quite follow the error, which seems to be related to the condition hierarchy 15:23:59 *Xach* pastes 15:25:21 H4ns: hmm, it seems clsql defines a condition named postgresql-notification 15:25:32 *sniffle* 15:25:33 and its package uses cl-postgres 15:27:06 lol 15:27:15 "i cannot change the name of the condition" *crosses arms before chest* 15:27:52 H4ns: not to worry, it already shadows postgresql-warning 15:28:02 H4ns: i think it would suffice to shadow postgresql-notification as well 15:28:03 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:13 to the clsql list! 15:28:15 :) 15:28:17 thanks! 15:29:37 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 15:30:10 today was not the best of my common lisp days 15:30:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131072#1 15:30:25 *shiver* 15:30:56 *H4ns* kind of regrets that he said "i don't need no stinking acl, all my stuff is portable" earlier 15:31:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:31:33 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:31:59 H4ns: You could... interrupt the thread. :) 15:32:06 just to be evil. 15:32:32 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ] 15:32:47 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-knhbdyjknrflrtzi] has joined #lisp 15:33:14 sykopomp: i have a deeply rooted fear of using thread-interrupt 15:33:21 maybe i should abandon it. 15:33:58 H4ns: a smart thing to do, but I think in some small cases you can mostly safeguard against the nasty. Maybe. 15:34:24 i read the "some" "mostly" "nasty" "maybe" 15:34:40 *loke* reads Xach's bug report 15:34:52 ...and that's why I never import packages :-) 15:35:03 *Xach* stickles 15:35:18 you don't import packages, you use them and inherit from them 15:35:23 you do import symbols 15:35:27 H4ns: if you have a limited scope in which the interrupt actually does a throw, and you protect a very limited region with without-interrupts, I think you can do this safely. 15:35:45 *sykopomp* has been using interrupts a lot lately, in a very restricted way. 15:35:57 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wrssyrawvibjyogs] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:35:58 What I meant was that I never import all symbols from a package. 15:36:05 I sometimes import individual symbols 15:36:32 *Xach* has never seen anyone import all symbols 15:36:42 argh 15:36:46 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 15:36:50 loke: you mean all exported ones? 15:36:52 damnit, you know what I mean :-) 15:37:09 loke: Do you mean using a package to inherit its external symbols? 15:37:20 Yes yes 15:37:22 :-) 15:37:24 phew 15:37:49 After writing a package system the terminology has more meaning and clarity to me 15:38:53 ugh, nevermind. Interrupting this involves protecting important internals. 15:39:29 sykopomp: i'm rather conservative with things that could somehow go wrong facing smp. often too conservative. i rather want to see stuff break at compile time than deployed under load 15:40:43 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:42:00 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:43:46 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:43:51 wuehli [~wuehlmaus@freeshell.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:14 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:16 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-152-23.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:46:42 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:17 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.41.243.99] has quit [Quit: paul0] 15:48:35 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:52:39 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 15:56:02 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.138.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:15 SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 15:57:30 -!- Jei is now known as test8383 15:57:41 -!- test8383 is now known as Jei 15:59:25 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:43 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:59:43 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:00:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:01:50 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:03:28 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:18 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-140-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:30 I wonder how long it would have taken to find the clsql issue in pre-quicklisp days 16:08:37 *Xach* pats self on back, buys self lunch 16:10:11 am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has joined #lisp 16:11:21 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:12:06 chenbing [~user@223.166.93.148] has joined #lisp 16:12:45 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:15:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:10 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat00.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 16:16:49 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:16:58 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 16:17:23 abct [~abct@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:33 -!- abct [~abct@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:56 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 MHD [50478707@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.71.135.7] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 does there exist a sort of bare bones lisp parser/runtime as a C library with easy C functionality to implement a custom lisp from scratch? Preferably w/ unicode. 16:25:45 ... doesn't ask for much, does he? 16:25:50 heh 16:25:55 I'll write it myself 16:26:01 if it doesnt 16:26:04 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:26:29 to me it is an obvious and preferred scripting solution 16:26:34 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:57 there are various lisps that are embeddable, though mostly schemes 16:27:13 some of them are designed to be used as scripting languages 16:27:15 must this necessarily print Hello? (progn (handler-case (foo) (error (condition) nil)) (format t "Hello")) 16:27:53 p_l: yeah, but like one without any functions in it 16:27:59 at all 16:28:49 has anyone been successful adapting the id3 parser from pcl to not error on 2.4 spec tags? 16:29:27 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 16:29:36 MHD: do you have a use case where ecl and clisp don't suffice? or are you just looking for a fun project? 16:30:05 MHD: I think you'd want some tiny scheme interpreter, then. Scheme is much more barebones than CL, having only the necessary parts... well, the older standards :> 16:30:27 MHD: most lispers seem to like the features to be there 16:30:42 i was sort of thinking of a DSL platform, for a type checker and a LLVM binding, possibly a STG-machine 16:30:54 as an intermediate in compiler technology 16:31:28 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:31:36 also, by type checker i mean Hindley Milner inference 16:32:35 MHD: probably this is what you are looking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_in_Small_Pieces 16:33:00 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 16:33:08 antonv: i doubt he'll take that as an answer 16:33:24 madnificent: let's check? 16:33:29 I like how a book contains source code... 16:33:36 MHD: how's that as an answer? 16:34:02 It is actually fairly good, but I already know how practically all programming languages work under the bonnet 16:34:27 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-knhbdyjknrflrtzi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:34 I can implement it myself, but I was specifically looking for not reinventing the wheel. 16:35:30 I have another question: How does the mainstream lisps handle things like type errors? 16:35:47 And in general, the practical problems of type systems. 16:35:48 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:37:15 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 madnificent: indeed, he is a bit reluctant to take this answer :( 16:37:45 tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:46 heh 16:38:22 MHD: lisp is quite different (this comes from a former programming-language-geek) 16:38:53 antonv: i'd be the same if i were him tbh :) 16:39:01 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 16:39:22 I live over in haskell land, and I have only had a few brief brushes with lisps, mostly on the theoretical level 16:39:47 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 16:39:47 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:07 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:41:29 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:41:40 MHD: although i like the endeavor of building a lisp for shell-like code, there are *a lot* of misconceptions about the language. it has evolved into something that shows a lot more of its greatnes than what you may learn from older books. i urge you to read Practical Common Lisp (free online) so you get a hang of the language itself. you may --and likely will-- still want to pursue the challenge you want to pursue now, h 16:41:40 assume that it would be *a lot* better structured. 16:43:16 MHD: Practical Common Lisp is not at all a complete reference of the language, but in a fairly short and nicely written book, it does introduce you to a lot of concepts. once you grasp them and get your hands dirty working with them, your view on shell scripting may evolve a bit. what you are building now will, i'd guess, gain a lot more traction. 16:44:06 I am a bit confused by your mentioning of shell scripting? 16:44:14 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:45:16 MHD: i lumped 'scripting solution' into the 'shell scripting' category due to a previous argument here. it is wrong, but luckily it doesn't change my message. 16:45:30 Okay, fair rewrite 16:45:32 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 The thing i see, to use Paul Graham's metaphor of the programming language spectrum, is Haskell as the most powerful in the type system 16:46:35 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:47:14 s/powerful in/fixated on/ 16:47:27 MHD: I believe PG greatly oversimplified the concept of language power 16:47:31 MHD: forgive my ignorance, but could you explain your question about type errors? the system just signals an error, if error-checking is on 16:47:35 MHD: it may or may not be, depending on what limitations you're willing to place on the application. i assume you know that as well as i do, and i don't think anyone is willing to argue with you on that. i personally liked it and i wouldn't mind someone bolting something onto lisp to support something similar. however, when you're learning lisp, try not to fixate on the features you already want to have. keep your eyes o 16:47:35 different ideas. 16:47:43 Wow 16:48:23 MHD: CL's type system is turing-complete, however the standard doesn't mandate compile-time checking etc. 16:48:39 p_l: I know haskell seems fixated on the type system, but in practical coding it catches about 90% of all errors. 16:48:45 SBCL can do optimizations based on knowledge of types as well as some type inference, however 16:48:51 MHD: except the worst kind 16:48:56 pavelpenev: yes. 16:49:12 pavelpenev: i'm willing to take MHD's side on it. given certain limitions which you're presumably willing to have, Haskell's type system is top of the bill. me not wanting to accept those limitations is a bit of a different thing. 16:49:26 Heh 16:50:23 p_l: turing complete types is bells and whistles and egregious hacks and we both know it 16:50:34 MHD: i understand that you want it though. SBCL (a common lisp implementation) gives me warnings about things which often require me to think for more than a minute. it's nice to have such a thing. lisp has a harder time enforcing it though, as redefinition is allowed :) 16:50:58 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.86] has joined #lisp 16:51:06 MHD: you shouldn't say that without reading up on it. it's quite pretty. 16:51:09 p_l: and yes, logic errors are the worst kind, but then you split up your code into smaller chunks as any semi-pure functional language allows and you can see where you went wrong. 16:51:50 -!- abeaumont__ is now known as abeaumont 16:52:15 MHD: but how about this: SBCL tells me that a certain branch of code can never occur to me. SBCL has derived the types and can tell me that. i know, haskell does similar things, but it's still nice. all i'm asking is: don't fixate on it yet. even though it is indeed cool! 16:52:31 okay 16:53:40 its all about perspective, where you stand and how you think about problem solving. I would be severely crippled by a pedantic compiler, a different kind of programmer might be greatly empowered by one. 16:55:16 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:56:19 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 16:59:29 As an example, I usually write at least one trow away version in order to learn more about a problem, even if I don't end up trowing away the code, lisp makes it easy to transform it into something less volatile. No point in worrying too much about safety and types early on when I don't even know what the code should do, and I need to learn as much about the problem as I can for every line I write. 17:00:50 -!- MHD [50478707@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.71.135.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:02:23 does setf-like side effort forms in macro (toplevel) expansion should always in (eval-when )? 17:03:14 flaviori_ [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 17:03:17 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:40 -!- flaviori_ is now known as flavioribeiro 17:05:58 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:23 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:38 SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 17:16:58 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:16 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 17:22:42 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:23:34 -!- foom2 is now known as foom 17:25:18 paul0 [~paul0@201.86.66.177.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:53 if a macro called twice times , may i say there are two macro expansion process? 17:26:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:03 if variable A has value 'B, and B is a special, is there a way to let-bind B through A? Like, (let (((something a) 3)) b) would return 3? 17:27:45 clop: you can use progv 17:28:10 thanks! 17:29:17 wow that's so crazy 17:30:11 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:26 Jonasmith [~jons@87.sub-174-254-173.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 MHD [50478707@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.71.135.7] has joined #lisp 17:40:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:44:05 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:11 chenbing: in theory there could be several macro expansions, but in practize, even interpreters cache the macro expansions so their occur only once. Macro expansion is mandatory in compilers, (cf. minimal compilation in CLHS), so compilers will not produce code executing the macro functions at run-time (unless you explicitely call macroexpand yourself). 17:48:13 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:48 chenbing: I'm not sure what you mean about setf-like side effort forms. 17:49:28 MHD: there's libecl.so 17:50:19 superflit_ [~superflit@75-166-74-105.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 MHD: see for example paste.lisp.org/display/129755#2 17:50:36 http:// 17:50:48 Fucking Firefox who removes the scheme. 17:51:27 pjb: it's a malady started by chrome :/ 17:51:50 clop: No, this may not print Hello, if foo contains a non-local exit. 17:52:05 like crazy version numbers. soon we'll have an attitude of "anything under version 100 is like beta" 17:52:28 (defun foo () (throw 'hi 42)) (catch 'hi (progn (handler-case (foo) (error (condition) nil)) (format t "Hello"))) --> 42 ; and no Hello. 17:53:18 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:53:18 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 17:53:32 pjb ok -- so i guess i should always use unwind-protect. :) 17:54:59 pjb: i fear evel-when when reading chapter 24 in pcl , oh 17:55:00 Yes, if that's what you want. 17:55:30 clop: notice however that unwind-protect doesn't protects some kinds of exits, like processed killed by -9, or power off. 17:56:06 right -- thanks 17:56:16 chenbing: well, reading chapter 24 should occur after having read chapters 1 to 23, and this should have given you tools to dominate your fear. Otherwise, read them again, along with the CLHS and do write programs. 17:56:54 :-) 17:57:02 chenbing: now, the most common usage of eval-when, is when you need to define functions or variables that are used by a macro _at_ _macro_ _expansion_ _time_. 17:57:21 where does the PCL cover eval-when? 17:57:44 chenbing: the alternative is to put all those variables and functions in a different file, to compile and load it before compiling and loading the file containing the defmacro, and before compiling (and therefore macroexpanding) the files using that macro. 17:58:58 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:58 in damned binary-data nested language 17:59:25 -!- am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:59:34 -!- callen [~callen@unaffiliated/callen] has left #lisp 18:00:15 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:03:15 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.198.27] has joined #lisp 18:04:59 pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:09 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-bpqwfuixjxuketiw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:50 am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has joined #lisp 18:07:12 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.191.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:10:56 I'm looking for something akin to (defun test (&rest args &key kw)) 18:11:15 this is definable but args just has a list like (kw 2) 18:11:15 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:26 (:kw 2) even 18:11:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:45 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:11:50 but I want something like this (test foo bar :kw 2) 18:12:06 any suggestions 18:15:32 I'm not an expert at all, but I guess you could check args for things that match keywords or the values associated and remove them 18:15:46 (Again, I am not saying that that's an ideal way to deal with it) 18:15:59 why do you want that? 18:16:35 My first though is to wrap the whole thing in a macro 18:17:30 Bike: if you must know. So i don't have to do this (poll (list (list item1 :socket socket1 :event poll-in)) :timeout 2) 18:18:01 paradoja [~paradoja@176.Red-79-147-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 I'm looking at a &rest because there can be N number of poll items 18:18:36 Guthur: (defun test (args &key kw) ) (test (list foo bar) :kw 2) 18:18:57 Otherwise you will have to parse args yourself according to your syntax. 18:19:08 pjb: yeah thats what I have 18:19:09 &key imposes an even number of arguments to rest. 18:19:36 I'll try some macrology 18:19:38 Also it imposes values for the even-numbered arguments, unless you use &allow-other-keys. 18:19:42 No need for any macro. 18:19:42 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 18:19:43 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:20:09 pjb I'd like and implicit list or something 18:20:25 &rest like 18:20:44 And you will put whole grammars in lambda lists? 18:21:12 Try to write a lambda list for CL:LOOP. 18:21:22 I was thinking of it more as data driven programming 18:21:45 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-74-105.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:47 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 probably best to show what I have 18:21:55 2 secs 18:21:57 it seems like a lot just so you can do (poll ... keys) instead of (poll (list ...) keys). 18:21:57 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.206] has joined #lisp 18:22:25 Bike: I can get pretty fuzzy about my interfaces 18:22:27 Also the problem is that arguments in the list could be keywords too. 18:22:34 fussy even 18:23:48 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131078 18:25:58 that's the core at the moment 18:26:14 just trying to improve it 18:26:48 there can be any number of items 18:27:20 I'm not overriding the kwargs there 18:27:47 Is there a lisp out there somewhere that uses [] instead of () ? 18:27:59 like, for ease of typing? 18:28:09 () are chorded, [] arent 18:28:21 MHD: clojure uses them in places 18:28:27 some people remap their keyboards so that [] and () are switched 18:28:38 not seeing the easy of typing argument though 18:28:46 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:28:52 Guthur: CTS 18:28:59 Guthur, many people need to type shift to use () 18:29:18 On a normal english keyboard, () are chorded with shift 18:29:33 My editor fills half of () in for me anyway 18:29:34 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 18:31:30 sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 18:31:57 ikki [~ikki@187.193.199.51] has joined #lisp 18:32:55 you could do (set-macro-character #\[ (lambda (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (read-delimited-list #\] stream))) and (set-macro-character #\] (get-macro-character #\))) but that's kind of pointless 18:34:14 -!- Jonasmith [~jons@87.sub-174-254-173.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:34:57 xmodmap will liberate you from the shift key on linux 18:35:22 in one example lisp file I have here there is 1313 characters 65 are ( 18:35:31 hardly seems a cause for concern 18:36:14 my editor taking care of the ) so they are free 18:36:15 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 18:38:40 (-:) 18:40:54 Do macros have advantages over the Tcl way of doing things? 18:41:14 Sgeo: whats the Tcl way? 18:42:07 No special forms, instead everything is a command. Things like if accept strings which it treats as code 18:42:13 -!- pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pulse40] 18:43:04 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:14 Admittedtly, code generation can be tricky beyond one command, but that's more of a lack of quasiquotation thing than a lack of macros thing 18:44:34 My .Xmodmap file for dvorak, with a second layout being Bulgarian, also swaps colon for the semicolon: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131079 I use ubuntus settings to make caps lock be an additional backspace, and make alt be C, and the win key be meta. 18:44:59 that sounds more like an "eval" than macros: "live interpretation of data as code" 18:45:05 macros are different. 18:45:15 ehu, but are macros necessarily better? 18:45:17 Sgeo: strings are a poor data structure for code 18:45:17 they transform 18:45:44 they transform anything you give them. not necessarily code. 18:46:19 pavelpenev, admitted, but a single command to execute, while being a string, is also a list 18:46:22 eval everything sounds like fexprs, in which case there's a pitman article on why lisp gave them up, I believe 18:47:07 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:11 a string - in lisp - is a sequence or vector, not a list. 18:47:18 I think you can't write with-call/cc in Tcl, but afaict not every useful use of macros is like that 18:47:36 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:39 Dante [~Dante@124.239.209.76] has joined #lisp 18:47:41 Are there even a lot of useful macros that do code-walking with-call/cc style? 18:47:46 Or just that one? 18:48:06 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Special-Forms.html yeah, here we go. 18:48:18 Sgeo: call/cc is Scheme 18:48:23 not Common Lisp. 18:48:34 ehu, I was referring to the cl-cont library 18:48:55 Which has a with-call/cc macro that does significant rewriting of code 18:49:41 there are more macros which do either significant rewriting or writing. 18:49:48 AMOP has its fair share. 18:50:01 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50:04 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 18:50:31 Writing is not a problem in Tcl. Rewriting is, since you can't tell if a string is meant to be code or just a string 18:50:58 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:51:20 well, how do you know - in lisp - that a list is code and not data? 18:52:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-156-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:15 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:52:20 Because it's at a top level or inside a function call or a special form in a position to be evaluated as code 18:52:27 -!- Dante [~Dante@124.239.209.76] has quit [] 18:52:30 -!- MHD [50478707@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.71.135.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:47 macroexpand can be used to process macros which would introduce uncertainty 18:53:08 Unless eval is being used, I guess, which would make it difficult 18:53:29 But I'm under the impression that due to macros, eval is not significantly used the way it is in Tcl 18:54:21 eval does macroexpansion. 18:54:36 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:59 Yes, but you can't know whether a given list will be eval'd, which I thought was your point 18:55:24 "In general, if you find yourself using eval, you are probably doing the wrong thing." -- PAIP 18:55:51 didi: depends, but it should be a warning sign, yes. 18:56:09 I've never used eval in more than 3 years of playing with various lisps, and python before that. 18:56:34 eval (well, usually, uplevel, which is sort of like eval) is pretty necessary in Tcl if you're doing things like making your own control structures etc 18:57:55 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:00:50 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:52 gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-ykbqfqvzhxeshmct] has joined #lisp 19:07:34 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:08:40 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A48E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A48E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:02 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:14:47 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:34 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 19:20:15 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 19:21:30 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:21:38 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:21:42 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:21:42 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:21:52 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-12-72.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:22:51 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:12 -!- pskosinski is now known as pk1001100011 19:24:33 -!- pk1001100011 is now known as pskosinski 19:24:35 -!- [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 19:27:20 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 -!- ice_ [~ice@123.114.40.166] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:28:28 pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 -!- gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-ykbqfqvzhxeshmct] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:40 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-179-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:46 mskou [~martin@0x5738e71c.rdnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:35:18 gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-iuvftkembyypoqsr] has joined #lisp 19:36:37 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:54 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:36:57 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:37:18 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:55 -!- mskou [~martin@0x5738e71c.rdnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:29 -!- TDT [~TDT@5317-nat00.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: TDT] 19:41:00 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 19:49:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:44 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.21] has joined #lisp 19:49:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.21] has quit [Changing host] 19:49:44 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:51:52 ehu: in lisp, actuall all sexps are code. Most objects are self evaluating. And if you want to consider a list as data, you can quote it: (quote (a b c)) is code that when evaluated produce the sexp (a b c). This could be code or data, depending on where it's sent to: (print (quote (a b c))) it's data. (defmacro m () (quote (a b c))) (m) it's code, A must be a function or a macro. 19:52:29 Being code or data depends on by what function it's processed. 19:52:34 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:53:37 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 If it's processed by compile-file, or eval it's code. If it's processed by print or car, it's data. But it can be processed by other functions and it's not black-and-white, but gray levels. If you write an interpreter or a compiler, it becomes code, without being necessarily lisp code. 19:54:35 cpt_nemo_ [cpt_nemo@2001:6f8:1215:ba:1::77] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 (father pascal henri) ; is that code or data? Depends. 19:55:18 And that's the whole point of homoiconicity: the usage is not hard coded by the syntax, but left to the processing functions. 19:56:00 When you read a lisp source file, it may be code if you read it with LOAD or COMPILE-FILE, or with READ to send the forms to EVAL. 19:56:35 But if you read the same lisp source file with READ, and send it instead to a function to register the docstring and later produce formated documentation, then it's not code, but data. 19:57:51 Even if you load it with LOAD, you could have set up an environment where the symbols interned are not CL symbols but from some other package, and that will instead of executing the forms as code, will actually build some data structure or do some other kind of processing that CL:EVAL. Is that code in the file, or data? 19:58:08 Mostly homoiconicity renders this question almost meaningless. 19:59:20 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@6.179.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:59:47 -!- cpt_nemo_ [cpt_nemo@2001:6f8:1215:ba:1::77] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:06:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:09:36 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-179-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:49 prip [~foo@host240-253-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:10:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-179-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:44 sup, i have a problem here http://paste.lisp.org/display/131082 20:12:42 <_death> use (finish-output) 20:12:49 oh 20:12:58 <_death> ~& is short for (fresh-line) 20:12:59 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 yes, but without it read wants to read first before even printing the first format .... 20:13:31 -!- gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-iuvftkembyypoqsr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:13:37 hmmm 20:14:00 -!- _death is now known as adeht 20:14:29 also, learn about LET 20:14:37 wbooze: You might want to use `--noinform' and `--quit'. 20:14:51 hi, how can I "reset" timestamp on quicklisp pls? update-all-dists is showing me "You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2012-08-11" 20:15:07 I know ql repo has newer libraries than I have locally 20:15:28 erm, i already used --quit it's contained in --non-interactive 20:15:38 OK. 20:16:22 dude i have the same code with let, that's no problem... 20:16:41 so ouptut and input buffering is things i suffer from now it seems 20:16:57 puchacz_: I think local libraries take precedence over whats in ql, so quickload will load the older local library. 20:17:15 `~&' is normally used at the beginning of format's control string, not in the end. 20:17:20 eheh ok thanks didi, adeht, _death 20:18:24 impl deps again, bleh 20:18:51 wbooze: why don't you write echo 'int main(){printf("");char* s=gets();}' | gcc -o pgm /dev/stdin ? 20:20:21 pjb: dunno 20:20:26 lol 20:21:34 what does that do ? 20:22:23 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.198.27] has left #lisp 20:22:40 Let's not be silly. C is serious business. 20:23:07 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:22 clintm [~user@131.191.81.250] has joined #lisp 20:25:05 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:50 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.208.89.228.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 20:26:02 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has left #lisp 20:26:24 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 20:26:40 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:26:50 Is elephant still the goto persistence library/package? Seems, though I guess 'freshness' is a relative term especially with cl libraries. 20:27:09 err.. seems deadish. 20:27:30 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:08 writing your own is the goto persistence library 20:28:21 -!- am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:24 heh.. ok. 20:29:12 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:30:41 clintm: postmodern is the cool kid 20:31:43 wbooze: then if you don't write C program on a single CLI line, why are you writing lisp programs on a single CLI line??? 20:32:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:32:36 haa ok 20:32:45 wbooze: also, notice how the shell will let you enter multi-line strings, when you use ' or ". 20:32:57 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:44 am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has joined #lisp 20:38:06 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-100-71.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:38:24 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-136-146-234.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:44:27 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:45:18 Speaker [~Speaker@128.Red-81-38-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:36 -!- Speaker [~Speaker@128.Red-81-38-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 20:48:53 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:56 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:20 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 20:51:33 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:54:57 Am I allowed to be sad that sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die causes the Lisp to die? 20:55:09 Saving a Smalltalk image doesn't stop it... 20:55:30 VieiraN_ [~VieiraN@187.10.241.67] has joined #lisp 20:55:45 use save-lisp-and-don't-die then 20:55:47 lol 20:55:49 ^ 20:56:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:01 Sgeo: use #+clisp (ext:saveinitmem ) instead. 20:58:17 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.241.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:58:42 Sgeo: also, on unix you can fork before saving lisp and dying. 20:59:02 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:59:31 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:31 pjb: code sample? 21:00:39 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@canonical/stokachu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:00:50 -!- ghast [~user@host248.200-45-155.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 21:01:18 -!- hswe [~hswe@san.space150.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:46 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 21:02:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:07 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 21:03:13 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:29 -!- pulse40 [~pulse40@c-98-196-168-47.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pulse40] 21:05:59 or man up and stop caring about death 21:06:10 lol 21:06:16 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 21:07:19 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 21:08:10 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-55-137.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:09:33 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:25 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ainyvknjjoxsmyeu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:36 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-mydohthcfzbygfpo] has joined #lisp 21:12:45 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-234-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:13:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-253.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:32 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-196-151.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-99-99.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:38 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:58 stassats: i never found being dead very manly :) 21:31:59 madnificent: might depend on how you die 21:33:37 *Sgeo* is currently reading about newLISP 21:33:40 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:33:46 It's already getting on my nerves a little 21:34:22 Sgeo: haha 21:34:33 Sgeo: it's a pretty abysmal dialect 21:34:54 (note also that it was "new" back when what we consider old now was old already 21:34:56 *Sgeo* wants to like it, but 21:35:15 How does if acting like cond make sense? 21:35:32 I mean, it can do both. Somehow. 21:35:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.199.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:35:43 oh, wait until you see the refcounting. 21:36:11 and, oh, haha, the deepcopy-everything parameter passing style 21:36:34 I don't mind deepcopy, as long as that's not how it's implemented internally 21:36:50 -!- am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:21 it was a long time, but I think that's how it is, yes. 21:37:26 it's just creepy. 21:38:26 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:50 sykopomp: thanks for that pointer. postmodern seems pretty awesome so far. 21:38:59 I love the statistics functions that come with it, and I think everything should have them. but they don't really justify the whole thing (: 21:41:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:41:47 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:42:03 *Sgeo* still wants to play with it for some reason 21:42:46 Sgeo: re-implement it as a CL library. 21:43:19 Sgeo: its probably the same reason I wanted to poke shit with a stick as a child. 21:43:20 Sgeo: well, good luck. just as long as you keep an open mind (: 21:44:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:26 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:20 anyway, I think there was a scheme dialect that tries to make f-expressions actually work. maybe play with that? 21:48:23 found it: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html 21:48:31 pavelpenev, read that before 21:48:52 But I'm thinking maybe a language with an alive community 21:48:59 That I could try to make stuff with 21:49:29 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:01 Sgeo: did you see the paper I linked about fexprs? 21:50:16 Bike, I remember vaguely skimming it 21:50:50 -!- sirboredalot [90a0621f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.98.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:25 it explains pretty well why they're not the best idea. 21:51:46 iirc, efficiency of compiler optimizations was a reason? 21:51:53 *Sgeo* may be misremembering 21:52:41 there are several. mostly relevantly to you, I think, was that it made code walking extremely difficult, since you can't tell what will be evaluted. 21:52:55 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:53:24 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@164.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:28 How often is code walking useful, though? 21:53:37 I know for rewriting into CPS, but any other times? 21:53:51 You can do a lot of things. 21:54:17 compiling would be the most obvious 21:54:45 I took a shot at writing a Kernel compiler, actually... I didn't really know what I was doing, but I couldn't even figure out how to start in the presence of fexprs. 21:55:33 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@68.Red-79-152-15.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:50 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:56:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:56:57 Sgeo: the most useful I've seen is in iterate (-: 21:57:12 Sgeo: and of course, CLOS implementations and such things (: 21:57:28 o.O you need code-walking for CLOS? 21:58:13 I think PCL does, not sure about a more minimal implementation 21:58:46 random googling found http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/tools/xref/0.html 21:59:17 Hmm 21:59:19 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.60.93] has joined #lisp 22:01:52 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.203.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:06 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 22:06:30 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 22:06:40 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:41 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:06:41 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:06:50 I know variables in newLISP are dynamically scoped, but is there any convention to earmuff variables intended to be used dynamically vs those intended to be used locally? 22:07:49 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:45 superflit_ [~superflit@75-166-74-105.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-mydohthcfzbygfpo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:07 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-aphsmujtssyidojj] has joined #lisp 22:12:13 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:13 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 22:13:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@67.210.173.114] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:14:25 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 22:15:04 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 22:15:43 infiniteone [~infiniteo@67.59.193.62] has joined #lisp 22:16:18 -!- [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 22:16:28 Did they flip a coin for each function to decide whether it would be destructive or not? 22:16:34 -!- mathrick is now known as azncecil 22:20:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:35 -!- azncecil is now known as mathrick 22:21:36 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:21:40 Sgeo: newLISP is very much off-topic here 22:22:20 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 22:22:24 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Client Quit] 22:25:19 S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-216-252-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:29 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-216-252-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:25:29 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 22:26:03 -!- infiniteone [~infiniteo@67.59.193.62] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobiuWpdkd&fin2qu3R] 22:26:39 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@6.179.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 22:31:37 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:31:54 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:32:05 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 phax [~phax@5ace7872.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 -!- phax [~phax@5ace7872.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:53 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:35:29 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 22:36:27 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-192-150.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:49 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:07 phax [~phax@5ace7872.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:08 -!- phax [~phax@5ace7872.bb.sky.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:38:08 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:43:24 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:45:43 -!- nuba_ is now known as nuba 22:50:18 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:21 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:09 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:59 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:37 So I'm using mongodb and I'm trying to serialize an instance so that I can save it to the db. I'm using cl-store:store wrapped in a flexi-stream wrapped with with-output-to-string but I'm still getting funky errors from mongo which, I assume, is due to cl-store and binary data. Is there any way to serialize an instance into something... I guess the word is 'safe' for storing? Or, if I learned more about clos and maybe mop, would the 22:55:37 solution be obvious? 22:56:26 nothing standard. You can try to play with make-load-form. 22:56:45 pkhuong: ooo... never heard of that. Looking it up... 22:56:45 yes, with mop it'd be obvious, albeit not trivial 22:57:54 I guess it's time to plop down the cash for the art of mop book. 22:58:27 pkhuong: Is this along the lines of what you are referring to? http://www.pentaside.org/paper/persistence-lemmens.txt 22:58:28 there're two chapters of amop available freely on-line 22:58:37 which describe the MOP 23:00:01 stassats: Well, maybe, just maybe, my intuition was right in the first place. I was planning on doing something like: 1. get all of the slots from , 2. map over them somehow making the data structure, 3. save to the db, then that in reverse to read it back out. 23:00:17 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@176.Red-79-147-73.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:22 where "doing something like" is actually "figure out how that's done and then do it." 23:00:58 right, that's obvious, but then comes things like, "what to do if one object refers another object" and so on 23:02:19 stassats: yea, true and I figured/hoped I'd have a moment of clarity and generalize the whole process so I could just, in that instance, recurse to the same function again no matter how far that goes. 23:02:25 in other words, the problem of object identity 23:02:35 that was the hope, anyway. 23:02:50 clintm: well, it breaks when the latter object is referring back to the former 23:03:14 stassats: hah... yea. Damn, I thought I was being clever for a minute. 23:03:44 ikki [~ikki@187.193.199.51] has joined #lisp 23:04:18 and then if you have two slots referring to the same object, then the restored copy will get two different objects 23:04:40 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has left #lisp 23:04:45 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:06:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-9-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:49 -!- Jei [~Jei@host-95-199-11-227.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:10 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:11:18 -!- VieiraN_ is now known as VieiraN 23:16:59 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:17:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.199.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:22:54 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has joined #lisp 23:23:27 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:29:04 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.166] has joined #lisp 23:29:19 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:29:54 Jei [~Jei@host-95-199-0-54.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 -!- Jei is now known as NomNom 23:30:56 ikki [~ikki@189.196.123.52] has joined #lisp 23:31:28 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.32.60.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:33:03 Is there anyone from Debian Common Lisp Team around here? 23:34:34 -!- NomNom is now known as MrBox 23:34:43 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:48 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:57 didi: i doubt it, i' d assume it'd be more regularly updated in that case. what is your problem? 23:35:03 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:36:16 -!- MrBox is now known as Daisy 23:36:45 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:36:52 *Sgeo* should consider writing macros to generate CLOS classes based on ADTs 23:37:02 Although I have a feeling that's been done before 23:38:00 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:38:35 madnificent: I have this idea for a CL GUI application which is using CommonQt and I would like to see it on the repositories. So, I have to first make sure CommonQt is on the repositories. 23:38:54 Or at least I think I have. 23:39:19 didi: perahps try in #debian and hope you encounter someone interesting? i have no better advice than that :/ 23:39:43 madnificent: I'll try it. Thanks. 23:41:16 why do you want to see your application in the repositories? 23:41:48 stassats: Because it's the way users install applications on Debian. 23:43:17 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:33 is the application already written? 23:43:41 -!- mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:54 stassats: Nope. 23:44:10 a system which automatically builds a .deb package and which spams all possible debian maintainers until they get so bored about it that they start supporting Common Lisp on debian would be funny 23:44:25 wouldn't it be better to spend the time on writing it instead of worrying about Debian users? 23:44:45 who may not be interested in it after all? 23:44:52 stassats: no! never! 23:45:24 stassats: I'm a big believer on package managers and I think this is a way to go forward with CL. 23:45:48 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl5-132-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:45:55 With anything, to say the truth, but I'm interested in CL. 23:47:48 i'm sure that spreading resources on 10 different package managing system is not the way to go forward with CL 23:48:25 It's not 10. It's 1. Which will include Ubuntu. 23:48:36 And all Debian derivatives. 23:49:00 didi: i doubt it's smart to support only debian. it seems like something that happens because you use it by accident 23:49:01 isn't it too discriminating? 23:49:14 quicklisp even works on my phone! 23:49:39 for the record: ruby has ruby-gems and people don't seem to mind that. perhaps hooking quicklisp into debian is smarter 23:49:44 Supporting Debian is not exclusive. And makes a hell of a difference for users. 23:49:46 also ubuntu has ppa 23:49:59 didi: are there going to be any? 23:50:02 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:12 stassats: I hope so. Users, not Developers. 23:50:21 didi: one problem with distributions is that most of them are binary or trying to install binaries. This is good when the distribution can make the choice of a single gcc compiler and a single ABI. Sometimes two if they want to support 32-bit and 64-bit libs and executables. 23:50:30 didi: but lisp has tens of compilers. 23:50:41 you know, commonqt is quite buggy 23:50:47 pjb: I do not plan to build a library, but a application. 23:50:59 didi: So you really need to distribute sources, and to compile on demand, just like quicklisp does. 23:51:01 pjb: I'm quite OK to use only CLISP or SBCL. 23:51:11 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:22 didi: yes, if you generate an application. But what that means is that you'll be responsible to compile the dependencies too. 23:51:23 stassats: Is it? that's a bummer. 23:51:36 ... 23:52:13 You guys are a little downers, you know? 23:52:16 The other problem is that lisp code evolves much more than C code. Perhaps it's only an impression, but looking at the monthly update lists of quicklisp, it seems to be that almost all the CL libraries are touched every month. 23:52:20 and incomplete, and slow at times 23:52:31 So you have a lot more difficulties to track version. 23:52:32 -!- Daisy [~Jei@host-95-199-0-54.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:46 didi: i'm honestly trying to look at it constructively... and i don't think that supporting debian (just debian) really is a smart thing 23:52:53 -!- paul0 [~paul0@201.86.66.177.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 23:53:03 madnificent: especially before there's anything written 23:53:03 didi: somebody's trying to make a ccl package for debian. 23:53:05 It's suppose to be an application. A GUI application. 23:53:20 maybe it'll take you ten years to write it and there will be no debian anymore? 23:53:21 ie. even most of the CL compilers are not in distributions yet. 23:53:24 didi: make an awesome app, then wory about distribution 23:53:33 You take a bunch of libraries, freeze theirs versions, and build the application. 23:53:42 And of course, the main difficulty is that CL compilers need a CL compiler to be compiled, in general. 23:53:49 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:00 often, they need themselves, and sometimes their very same version to compile! 23:54:07 ... :^( 23:54:16 pjb: isn't that just CMUCL? 23:54:22 Which means that some distribution like debian who don't like to distribute binaries have a problem. 23:54:32 pjb: stop picking on poor CMUCL ;) 23:54:34 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-152-156.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:54:39 ccl is the same here. 23:54:41 cmucl is fine with debian, btw 23:54:57 because they can set up their own buildbod 23:55:01 *bot 23:55:05 didi: final applications may be a tad simpler. you can save-lisp-and-die and supply that, i think 23:55:25 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-aphsmujtssyidojj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:33 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-rvvhfxaqhzpwjdjy] has joined #lisp 23:55:53 madnificent: well, you have to be careful with CFFI: sometimes external libraries compiled by the asdf are needed, so they have to be installed and found in some system-wide directory, instead of ~/.cache/common-lisp etc. 23:56:20 Ie. last time I tried to compile a CL app, it didn't work because it searched a library in my unavailable $HOME. 23:57:05 So, it's probably possible, already half done, but requires a lot of work. 23:57:06 IOW, do like a windows dev and ship all of your dependencies :) 23:57:09 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:57:18 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:34 You can be very depressing some times... 23:57:47 -!- clintm [~user@131.191.81.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:05 It would be simplier to design a system with a linux kernel, only one CL implementation, and a system-wide quicklisp and CL application compiled in. Ie. a specific LispOS/Linux distribution. :-) 23:58:14 didi: don't let a challenge get you down! 23:59:25 Now I don't even want to use CommonQt, which was the best GUI library I've encountered. *sigh* 23:59:30 didi: also, you could study clc (common lisp controller) and see why it failed. 23:59:52 pjb: I just want(ed) to build an application.