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known as s0ber 05:32:46 chenbing [~user@223.166.92.149] has joined #lisp 05:33:04 does "(ldb (byte 8 8) 257)===1 means my host is BigEndian? 05:33:05 05:34:18 chenbing: no, byte operations work on an idealized representation of integers. it'd do the same on a ternary machine 05:34:28 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:34:43 snearch [~snearch@pD4B887CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:17 jimmy__ [4086ed57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.134.237.87] has joined #lisp 05:35:27 chenbing: if you want to know the endianness of the machine, your implementation might put :little-endian or something in your *features*. sbcl does 05:38:33 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:21 -!- skmpy [~s@unaffiliated/skampler] has quit [Quit: sl33p] 05:39:33 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:06 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:42 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 05:43:34 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.134.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47:19 I'm confused that the endianess is focus on machine code or software/app 05:47:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:48:04 I don't understand what you just said, sorry. 05:49:45 my sbcl *features* don't manifest endianness 05:53:57 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:54:54 -!- Kron_ is now known as Kron 05:55:37 Really? Tried (find :little-endian *features*) and (find :big-endian *features*)? 05:58:46 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 05:59:29 both are nil :-( 06:00:08 hm, I think sbcl should have one as of... 1.0.55 06:00:57 1.0.45.0 debian 06:01:21 well there you go then. before .55 big-endian was implied by the lack of little-endian. you could use the trivial features library. 06:02:02 okay , for now i impact more practical knowledege on lisp , put aside the issue later 06:02:09 -!- cola_zero [~cola_zero@www5116ue.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:02:26 cola_zero_ [~cola_zero@www5116ue.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:06:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:08:05 let me just chime in to say that that sounds like an excellent idea... switching to a src install before you've really gotten comfortable with lisp can be a serious headache and may discourage you from slogging onward. knowing when to put aside an issue is a great trait to have. tenacity is overrated! 06:10:18 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:48 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fprmjfywmsmxamly] has joined #lisp 06:10:49 lirt [~lirt@31.162.212.234] has joined #lisp 06:11:05 :-) 06:15:07 nostoi [~nostoi@157.Red-83-33-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:08 -!- lirt [~lirt@31.162.212.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:14 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.134.16] has joined #lisp 06:20:26 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:48 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:24:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:24:47 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 06:32:50 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.59.229] has quit 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[~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 12:58:44 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:48 I pushed modifications to my stepper: Added *STEP-MAX-CALL-DEPTH*, *STEP-TRACE-OUTPUT*, (STEPPER DISABLE) declaration. 13:02:05 Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 snearch [~snearch@p5797A8BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:29 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:20 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:26 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:17:04 how can i get all attributes of a class and use their name and value as key argument in a funcall? 13:18:09 now I'm using (funcall template-func :name (name page) :url (url page) …etc…) 13:20:54 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:43 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:42 Hm. How strange, l1sp search fails to find class-slots. 13:23:02 What's the URL? I'll add it 13:24:14 mskou: that might be a sign that you can structure your activity differently. 13:24:29 page i a instance of a class, url is an attribute/slot in a class. 13:24:32 http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#class-mo-readers I think this is the closest you can get. 13:25:44 mskou: use closer-mop. 13:26:03 thanks for the pointers 13:27:50 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 13:31:22 -!- mskou [~mskou@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:46 Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:38:47 *sykopomp* wonders what people usually use as a solution to having to heavily destructure objects to pass arguments around. 13:40:31 lazzurs_ [~lazzurs@213.229.126.108] has joined #lisp 13:41:24 -!- lazzurs_ [~lazzurs@213.229.126.108] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:42 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:24 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:18 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 macros. 13:51:01 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-kklxqmjdxkmoushs] has joined #lisp 13:54:51 Hi guys, I'm trying to code up a function that can translate DNA sequences into protein sequences. Effectively, I need to have a hash table of all 64 codons to their respective amino acid codes. Is there an elegant solution to mass hash table assignment? 13:55:10 I'm just trying to avoid writing: (setf (gethash "UUU" *codon-table*) "F") 13:55:12 64 times 13:56:31 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-31.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-31.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:43 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:58:55 I use alexandria:alist-hash-table. 13:59:11 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:59:49 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 14:00:13 Bacteria: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:hashtable :elements '((:k1 v1) (:k2 v2))) 14:00:52 pjb: D: What library do I need for that? 14:01:02 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) 14:01:07 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:24 Awesome 14:01:31 Cesarum, the new, improved library, built on the cenders of Alexandria's library :-) 14:01:32 It's doing its thing 14:01:33 mal__ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 Ooooh 14:02:03 Where would one fine documentation on this library? 14:02:24 There http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/ of course. 14:02:34 Brilliant! Thanks pjb 14:02:58 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-kklxqmjdxkmoushs] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:03:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:36 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:13:31 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:14:05 ipmonger_ [~ipmonger@c-76-26-112-202.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:35 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:17:43 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@69.241.19.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17:44 -!- ipmonger_ is now known as ipmonger 14:17:49 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:19:14 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5797A8BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:19:27 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:20:51 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:20:51 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:21:53 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:22:00 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:02 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:47 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:50 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.28] has joined #lisp 14:25:48 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:27:31 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 14:27:42 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:28:54 hargettp [41dbedf3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.219.237.243] has joined #lisp 14:29:33 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:54 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:35:23 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.2] has joined #lisp 14:36:28 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 14:36:31 -!- xristos is now known as Guest94966 14:38:01 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449212.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:38:41 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:26 pnq [~nick@AC817E21.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:27 -!- pnq [~nick@AC817E21.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:39:27 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:40:15 Greetings lispers 14:41:03 anyone know if the lisps that predate C would eval (eq 0 nil) -> nil, (= 0 nil) -> type error ? 14:42:26 j_king: What kind of archeology project are you working on? 14:42:33 j_king: in LISP 1, LISP 1.5 nil = 0 = false = (). 14:42:47 j_king: in the first Lisp, EQ on anything which wasn't a symbol was undefined behaviour 14:42:54 (I presume it crashed the runtime) 14:42:58 ThomasH: just a random curiosity after watching a talk by Alan Kay recently. 14:43:31 Otherwise, all lisps predate C. 14:44:02 got to wondering how this notion of 0 == false got introduced (i assume by low-level machine-oriented languages), but also why it persists in post-modern languages 14:44:29 aw, well, I'm a Macintosh programmer originally: C is a late comer in the Mac world. 14:44:31 *j_king* thinking a bit about why things are the way they are 14:44:34 j_king: it's convenient. Like the notion that the empty list is false and has a CAR and a CDR. 14:44:55 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:45:10 j_king: it's the notion of bottom.  14:45:43 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:51 Kuloto [~mro@12.13.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:48:37 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:50:10 -!- trigen_ is now known as trigen 14:50:28 http://youtu.be/FvmTSpJU-Xc 14:50:41 that's the talk that got me started, "Normal Considered Harmful" 14:51:20 the bit about how computer science might not really be a science since it seems to forget its heritage and progression so easily resonated with me quite a bit. 14:52:04 of course it's not a science. 14:52:21 which alan kay argues convincingly 14:52:40 6.001 lecture one: not really about computers, and not much of a science 14:52:45 -!- chenbing [~user@223.166.92.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:48 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:53:37 there's a section where he puts up a bunhc of pictures of physicists from the past and everyone in the audience was able to recognize who they were, what their contributions were, and how it changed physics. 14:53:38 software isn't even engineering as I've experienced it in other disciplines. 14:54:06 then he does the excercise with prominent computer "scientists" and few, if anyone, is able to recall their names or contributions 14:54:19 even mccarthy! ;) 14:55:33 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:55:56 -!- Kuloto [~mro@12.13.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:44 Some of us can also recognize famous authors. I don't know if "taught in grade school" is a relevant criterion to decide whether or not a field of study can be deemed scientific. 14:58:10 -!- pierre__ is now known as nowhere_man 14:58:33 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:58:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:59:10 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-epsojdyphuhjhikq] has joined #lisp 14:59:14 -!- Guest94966 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:59:42 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:44 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:47 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:01:38 In the French CS manual for high schools, there are pictures of McCarthy, Backus, and others. 15:01:50 s/manual/textbook/ 15:02:09 A bit OT here but I'm curious.. do all french high schools have the same text books? 15:02:32 nope 15:02:44 k (: 15:03:05 although CS was recently introduced so i don't know if there are many competing offers 15:03:34 They don't have the same textbooks, but they must contain the same things :-) 15:04:27 On a completely different topic, whenever there is some deficiency in an application I develop, the client blames it on the choice to use common lisp. Looking through some software presentations last night, I noticed that the scripting langauge for the CFD package they use is Scheme. 15:04:29 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@115.164.0.32] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 nitrix [~nitrix@modemcable126.95-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:04:45 Oh wow 15:04:54 I need to get better at correcting those perceptions. 15:04:55 363 nicks, really? 15:05:03 Client should not have to know what programming language is used. 15:05:04 Is lisp that popular ? 15:05:10 nitrix: most of them are idle robots 15:05:17 Do you ask your surgeon what kind of scalpel he uses? 15:05:19 _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has joined #lisp 15:05:46 Xach: same is true for users of most other languages :) 15:05:52 that's common with any unpopular choice 15:06:05 pjb: It's the fear of the thing not being sterilized ... 15:06:13 ThomasH: just don't allow any deficiencies and you're set 15:06:24 pjb: You are generally correct, except that the client has aspirations of his people being able to add features to the application some day. Worries about me getting hit by a bus, etc. I could implement it in whatever langauge he wanted and his people still would have trouble. 15:06:47 -!- nitrix [~nitrix@modemcable126.95-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:06:56 And those programmers are not able to use lisp? 15:07:01 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 if it's such a concern to your client, he would certainly have been more adamant about language choice 15:07:06 Perhaps you should not help them survive. 15:07:14 stassats`: That requires anticipating the deficiencies that we don't know are deficiencies until we decide they are because everything else works. 15:07:17 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:07:33 pjb: It's an engineering firm, programming is just a tool, not a job. 15:07:42 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-398-233.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:08:00 punee: I emphasized this to him when we started the project years ago. 15:08:07 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-355-103.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:10 *ThomasH* goes to get coffee 15:08:49 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fprmjfywmsmxamly] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:11:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:11:28 did you tell him that #lisp is full of drones ready to jump at your vacancy? 15:11:38 ThomasH: perhaps you should show your boss Zed Shaws ACL is dead talk: http://vimeo.com/2723800 tl;dr it has nothing to do with technology, it's all politics... You can have a working maintainable cheap solution ready, and it still wouldn't matter, such is the state of the software industry today. 15:12:05 -!- jimmy__ [4086ed57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.134.237.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:13:03 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 15:13:37 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129067186.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129067186.mbb.telenor.dk] has left #lisp 15:15:51 -!- MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@115.164.0.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:16:34 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:06 Programming for me is a tool to facilitate other activities. I look around my industry and the trend is strongly towards Python. It's a fiasco. Different pieces of software based on different Python versions on different platforms (CPythong, IronPython, etc.) Python 2 versus Python 3. I haven't used Python in years, so I read through the documentation this weekend and my head started hurting. I've used Common Lisp too long, there's no 15:17:06 going back. 15:18:04 just use clpython! 15:18:10 minion: clpython? 15:18:11 clpython: CLPython is an implementation of the Python programming language in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/clpython 15:18:11 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:22 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:18:40 stassats`: Yes, I've been looking into that as well. Thanks. 15:18:45 -!- nicferrier [~nicferrie@87.253.171.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:03 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:19:30 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-epsojdyphuhjhikq] has quit [Quit: au revoir] 15:19:40 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-oklobqsbekvksekx] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 I found python to be pretty easy to get into. The next awesome lisp should steal a few things. 15:20:58 dlowe: like? 15:21:48 In python, if I see a symbol, there's somewhere in the file that tells me exactly where that symbol came from. (as long as they didn't import * from x. which you shouldn't) 15:21:49 the "next awesome lisp" did steal a few things, like [] for vectors and {} for maps. 15:22:04 *j_king* shudders. 15:22:20 clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.250] has joined #lisp 15:22:22 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cdnlifwzqzjuoisz] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 how do i get format to pad an integer value with leading 0's? 15:23:06 eg: "%04d" 15:23:15 dlowe: Maybe I'm confused, but I'm pretty sure SLIME does that and I know the LW IDE does. 15:23:17 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:23:26 ThomasH: that's not part of the language :p 15:23:37 -!- _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:23:39 (symbol-package symbol) ? 15:23:53 (format t "~4,'0d" 3) 15:23:54 dlowe: that's the same complaint about not being able to write lisp using notepad or plain vim 15:24:10 hope you don't use (format t "~4,'0d" -3) 15:24:20 dlowe: You're just being a damn Python apologist. ;-) 15:24:23 _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has joined #lisp 15:24:30 iocor [~textual@venncaps.watershed.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:40 -!- iocor [~textual@venncaps.watershed.co.uk] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:40 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:25:00 I think python is great if all you know is C++ and pascal, which explains why I used to like it. 15:25:16 Back to my original comment, it was encouraging to see that the scripting language for the Fluent CFD software was Scheme. 15:25:18 fe[nl]ix: this is about reading code, though. Nice printouts are an asset. 15:25:19 Having written a lot of Common Lisp, I think I've earned the right to think some things are great in other language 15:25:44 Dammit dlowe, just drink the kool-aid. 15:26:02 (format t "~:[~;-~]~4,'0d" (minusp 3) (abs 3)) if you do 15:26:20 the thing I still think is great about python is pretty much the stuff they got from lisp 15:26:21 stassats`: thanks, only need positive integers right now though :) 15:26:32 I also love that I can "import very.long.package.name as short" 15:26:43 magnificrab: it works ok with 0 too 15:26:47 which neatly solves the library namespacing issue 15:26:50 if 'x' contains the string "honk", and my intuition so far says what I need to make an alist is `(let ((a '(:name . ,x))) , how do I force evaluation on the result of that let so that 'a' is (:name . "honk")? or am I completely missing something fundamental about lists and evaluation in general? 15:26:51 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:02 dlowe: definitely a plus here as well. 15:27:25 clintm: It's just a list 15:27:28 (list ...) 15:27:37 `(:name . ,x) 15:27:47 so, that's about it for things I like about python that CL doesn't have 15:28:12 (let* ((x "h") (alist `(:name . ,x))) alist) => (:NAME . "h") 15:28:42 :/ I should have poked at it in the repl longer. Thanks Thomas and stassats`. 15:28:44 clintm : Actually, it's a cons -> (let ((a (cons :name x)))) 15:28:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:48 dlowe: significantly shorter list, compared to the other way around :) 15:31:09 pavelpenev: sure. :) CL is a very nice language. 15:31:22 dlowe: you can say whatever you want, just don't expect everybody to just take your wisdom for granted 15:31:37 did anyone ever have to deal with upper-case column names in postmodern and got it to work? 15:32:12 I think it's essential to find good ideas to steal from outside of lisp, but python isn't a good source of such ideas. 15:33:09 H4ns: aren't postgres identifiers case-insensitive ? 15:33:31 fe[nl]ix: I think your aggression is pretty unwarranted 15:33:39 fe[nl]ix: no. 15:34:12 fe[nl]ix: similar to cl, sql mandates case sensitivity but performs case folding (to lower case) for unquoted identifiers. 15:34:34 H4ns: use double quotes 15:34:53 wow, my list of things I hate about lisp is much longer than that. :) 15:35:12 dlowe: i was asking about postmodern. 15:36:14 H4ns: I know. (select '* :from "\"Foo\"") 15:36:19 H4ns: try using strings 15:36:30 dlowe: ah, ok. that would do, thanks! 15:36:32 foom: That wasn't a list of things I hate about lisp 15:37:05 dlowe: that was no aggression 15:37:09 dlowe: unfortunately, it does not work. 15:37:17 xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 15:37:38 -!- xristos is now known as Guest72929 15:37:48 dlowe: strings are always quoted with E'' by s-sql, so your suggestion creates a syntax error 15:38:15 (:raw "\"Foo\"") does work, though. the beauty! 15:39:08 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:39:42 What's going on with YubNub? 15:39:44 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:27 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:06 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:42:26 ThomasH: according to isup.me, it's not just you. 15:42:55 -!- trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:24dd:34a5:2bd6:7949] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:05 pkhuong: That is great site, thankgs. 15:43:09 *thanks* 15:43:23 trigen_ [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:3c65:34a5:2bd6:7949] has joined #lisp 15:43:55 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:10 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45:11 -!- hargettp [41dbedf3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.219.237.243] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:45:23 -!- _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:46:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.20.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:46:26 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:47:15 H4ns: beware injections 15:48:36 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 H4ns: that is a feature of S-SQL that bugs me when I try to use it with mssql. You have to change the quoting rules before you compile because of the eager macros. 15:50:31 stassats`: the column names i'll need are hard coded. 15:51:08 Xach: this is just for one database that is badly set up, so i'll just use (:raw) and be done with it. 15:51:21 kenanb [kenanb@188.38.126.202] has joined #lisp 15:51:24 did anyone have any luck with postmodern and notifications? 15:51:27 sure, just ranting on a tangent 15:51:46 H4ns: i wrote a patch for it that worked but i stalled out when patching the documentation 15:52:38 then the project where i thought i needed it did not need it. 15:52:39 Xach: would that patch deliver notifications without requiring a client-server interaction? 15:52:45 May I just rant of about 40 or so characters: Javascript is an incredibly shitty language. 15:52:46 OK, done 15:53:00 loke: 1) off topic 2) no. 15:53:01 Sorry. I'm just annoyed, having to use it right now 15:53:38 H4ns: no. it was an extra entry in the message type dispatch table. 15:53:54 H4ns: I have this feeling that there is a good Lisp-like language struggling to get out 15:53:57 I'll check the patch, I forget the exact details. 15:54:29 Xach: thanks! if i have to poll the server, i can as well poll the table i'm interested in though. 15:54:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 15:55:06 H4ns: ah, it adds a WAIT-FOR-NOTIFICATION blocking function. 15:55:11 No polling. 15:55:15 http://www.mail-archive.com/postmodern-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00302.html 15:55:49 Xach: nice! thanks! 15:57:52 minion: tell loki about parenscript 15:57:52 loki: direct your attention towards parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from an extended subset of Common Lisp (s-exp syntax) to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript 15:58:24 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.221.129.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:01 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cdnlifwzqzjuoisz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:30 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:59:56 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:00:12 disciple [~krishna@117.221.129.86] has joined #lisp 16:00:35 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 Xach: works great, brilliant! 16:01:31 -!- clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.250] has quit [Quit: clintm] 16:01:35 H4ns: here, you can own it and get it added to postmodern :) 16:01:52 Xach: *bow* 16:02:25 I think I was going to use it for an IRC bot attached to a trouble ticket database table or similar 16:04:30 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:12 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:06:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-137-175.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:10:11 k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.112] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:12:05 H4ns: actually, did you try using '|Foo|? 16:12:34 if foo is '|FOO|, how will it work for "FOO"? 16:13:14 mritz [~textual@97.65.251.170] has joined #lisp 16:16:42 dlowe: cl-sql folds upper case strings - '|FOO| is eq to 'foo anyway 16:17:30 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:17:39 Xach: slightly updated with support for payload and (:notify)/(:listen) https://github.com/mcna/Postmodern/commit/519f4a0956630f239de155b56706e192240993a9 16:17:40 is || not for literals ? 16:17:44 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.183.87] has joined #lisp 16:17:55 '|FOO| is always eq to 'foo. :p I typed '|Foo| 16:17:59 but I get your meaning 16:18:07 wbooze: || turns off case folding in the reader. 16:18:27 dlowe: what about poor modern mode users? 16:18:31 ah 16:18:36 stassats`: screw them 16:19:08 stassats`: they knew the risks when they started 16:19:11 -!- Kron_ is now known as kron 16:19:29 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19:56 H4ns: is that going to be mcna-only? :~( 16:20:45 minion: what does MCNA stand for? 16:20:46 Misesteem Cheetah Noctilucin Assenting 16:21:18 My Code Needs Auditing 16:23:26 Xach: no, i'm going to *sigh* add the docs and send a pull request to marijn 16:23:32 thanks!! 16:26:52 (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (EQ 'foo '|FOO|) => NIL 16:27:07 -!- ludston [~patience@CPE-58-166-72-98.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:31 should be :perverse 16:28:34 yes, yes. But we can make anything mean anything here, so the sensible way to have discourse is to assume people are using the defaults 16:29:14 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:45 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:37:45 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:40:08 qNemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 dlowe: just don't say "always". 16:40:53 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:42:38 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.232] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 16:47:16 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:24 clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.250] has joined #lisp 16:49:35 Just how bad form is it to export all of the symbols from a package? I don't just want to learn lisp well, I want to learn good lisp well. :) 16:49:45 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 16:49:57 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:11 clintm: It's not automatically bad form, but it's not typical. 16:50:20 It depends on the kind of package. 16:50:47 clintm: A package usually exports the names that an external user should reasonably expect to use, and keep internal symbols that go into supporting the implementation of those bits. 16:51:07 Xach: yea, ok, it *felt* like bad form... sort of how it feels to use unsafePerformIO unnecessarily in haskell, or the multitude of 'that's not smart' things you can do in Perl. 16:51:16 For example, my CL-STEPPER package replaces COMMON-LISP, so obviously, it must exports symbols with the same names as all the symbols from CL. (:export . #.(cl:let ((e '())) (cl:do-external-symbols (s "COMMON-LISP" e) (push (string s) e)))) (plus it exports a few other symbols). 16:51:27 But in general, a package only exports what it defines. 16:51:29 Some packages don't really have any "implementation" to speak of, and the symbols are just used as symbols, so you might have a package that consists solely of exported symbols. 16:51:42 That's not very common, though. 16:52:05 There's even a library to do this kind of things IIRC, Conduits, or something like that. 16:52:05 It also happens in packages that aren't meant to be USEd. 16:52:36 clintm: an analogy would be making all members of a C++ or Java class public (unless it's required). 16:52:36 Some kinds of packages export all the symbols that are interned in them. eg. the KEYWORD package. 16:52:37 clintm: a lot of times functions have short, local symbols like I or J that make sense in some local context but which do not make sense as exports. 16:52:52 Oh! That's good to know. The current version of my Lisp intuition said that "everything is a symbol" but symbols are variables? Is a defined variable a symbol and a defined function a.... form? or... 16:52:55 pjb: why not (loop for symbol being the external-symbols of 'cl collect symbol) ? 16:53:15 I'm not used to use loop for packages. 16:53:16 blackwolf: exactly.. ok, that's what I figured. 16:53:19 clintm: symbols are used to name things. they might name variables, functions, classes, or other stuff. 16:53:54 Xach: Ah! a clear distinction between the thing and its name. 16:54:08 clintm: for example, once I wrote a system to analyze mail logs. I used the message-ids as symbols to refer to the history of each message, and have a package that exports automatically all those message-ids. 16:54:25 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:30 clintm: plus, if you *need* to access something that's not exported, you can still use: PACKAGE::SYMBOL 16:55:27 It's quite nice to be able to refer to an object by name 1adf45@host.example.com --> # instead of (find-message-with-id "1adf45@host.example.com"). 16:55:30 blackwolf: but, again, bad form in the same way you shouldn't do that in Perl - ie. since it's not exported it could change or disappear with the next rev. 16:55:47 clintm: yes. 16:56:00 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:56:02 That said, nothing prevents the new versions to remove symbols from their export lists too. 16:56:28 pjb: I would have never thought of doing that. 16:57:20 Maybe I should keep a log of this and then perhaps write an essay on the path to unlearning previous intuition about programming languages. Assumptions are making the Lisp road longer than it has to be, it seems. 16:57:37 just don't make any 16:57:52 clintm: i think the summary is "don't assume what you're learning is like something you already know" 16:59:02 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 16:59:05 stassats`/Xach: it seems though that we (or perhaps just I) look for similarities wherever I can find them to increase the perceived familiarity when approaching new languages. 16:59:35 Not to say the problem isn't me - definitely not suggesting that. 16:59:36 clintm: Yeah, don't do that. 17:00:02 Xach: ummmm.... that's bad, mmkuy? 17:00:07 heh 17:00:09 Lisp isn't C (or Scheme, or Python, or...) with funny names 17:00:41 centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-137-175.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:52 Xach: oh, Let Over Lambda crushed that a while ago... I'm not quite that far away from complete understanding, thankfully. 17:01:35 clintm: I've been using lisp for over 5 years and I don't have complete understanding. 17:02:50 ThomasH: Nice. That's what I like to hear. That's why I love Haskell - it still seems like chess. Quick to learn, a lifetime to master. 17:04:05 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:05:04 clintm` [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:07 -!- clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.250] has quit [Quit: clintm] 17:05:10 If Let over Lambda is your first Common Lisp book, try reading a few more to get some context. 17:05:11 -!- clintm` is now known as clintm 17:05:53 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:06:16 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:21 Xach: I read pcl first several years ago and then went through the chaptersthat I was unclear about. Maybe I should finally make myself read pcl again. I usually approach learning languages with a project, and then for better or worse, I take the problems little by little. 'ok, I need to concatenate two strings, so I'll look for it in the book.' 17:07:32 Not the most optimal approach. 17:08:28 minion: please tell clintm about PAIP 17:08:28 clintm: direct your attention towards PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 17:08:32 Or, if I'm going to read cover to cover or close to it, perhaps 'On Lisp' or one of the others might be a better idea. 17:08:59 i didn't find On Lisp that useful 17:10:01 *Xach* likes PAIP way more than On Lisp 17:11:10 Xach / anyone else: Do you have a favorite? 17:11:32 I think I like PAIP slightly more than PCL, but they're close. 17:12:12 minion: tell clintm about keene 17:12:12 clintm: direct your attention towards keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/keene 17:12:24 I read and really liked land of lisp - it certainly reminded me of typing in basic programs from magazines. 17:13:20 Ok, it looks like I just blew my monthly book budget. Nice. 17:13:21 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:40 lol \o/ 17:14:06 I'm assuming that The Art of Metaobject Protocol is one of those books that should wait until I get through one or more of the above suggestions. Is that correct? 17:14:11 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-15.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:33 yeah 17:14:49 PPPPT! I ordered it too. If I'm going to fudge on a budget, it might as well be for books. 17:15:25 i still haven't read the AMOP, except for the two chapters at http://www.alu.org/mop/ 17:15:35 not sure i will ever 17:15:51 -!- hugod [~user@70.24.181.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:16:39 I hear library cards are a good investment. 17:17:13 but who will support the author? 17:17:19 Somewhat off topic, I'm going to add to my latest experiment by telling yet another interviewer who asks what my favorite programming language is. So far "common lisp" has 3 positive responses (judging by body language, etc.) and 2 effectively killed interviews. 17:17:51 clintm: What were the interviews that common lisp killed? 17:17:56 clintm: I interviewed a candidate many years ago and asked that question. "Common Lisp!" the guy said, "Did you know Paul Graham built Yahoo Store in Common Lisp?" 17:18:00 pkhuong: Hah! That's good. I can guarantee you that the public library where I live does not have a good collection of Common Lisp references, if any at all. 17:18:03 (if you don't mind sharing the details) 17:18:13 then I asked "Do you actually use common lisp?" "Wellllll...no...but...elegance..." 17:18:24 After that I decided to learn CL so I wouldn't sound like that guy. 17:18:33 pkhuong: I would love to... but I live in an unfortunate area of the US where the libraries are open 2 hours a week, but the sex shops are all 24/7. I love a society that has its priorities in order. 17:18:39 Xach: so, do you use CL? 17:18:42 stassats`: yes 17:18:47 cool! 17:18:50 Hah  so he's done a great service to the community without being a member of it :) 17:19:01 so elegant! 17:19:01 Xach: ah, but is it your favorite? 17:19:16 yes! 17:19:40 Xach: At jobs, when I'd mention CL, I'd often get responses like Oh, I love Lisp  if only we had a project where it'd be a good fit. 17:19:43 ThomasH: come to my state! every library lends to every other library (even university libraries lend to public libraries by mail) 17:19:44 Looks like CL has another tag line, "Common Lisp, So Elegant" 17:20:02 *Xach* has heard this is not an uncommon arrangement 17:20:57 antoszka: position was for a rails drone, and when I say 'drone' there, I mean that they wanted a cog to do maintenance on their rails app. Not that rails/ruby is somehow beneath me. I have to have challenge and some variety or the job isn't sustainable over the long term. 17:21:00 -!- mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:23 clintm: Right. 17:21:44 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:22:04 Xach: Indeed, although the University to public I wasn't aware of. But as a practical matter, if I need a book as a reference and my choices are: (1) pull it off my shelf or (2) file an interlibrary loan request and wait 2 weeks, I think the utility of option 1 justifies owning the book. 17:22:06 sellout42: The guy might be using CL now, for all I know. I can't remember his name... 17:22:35 ThomasH: oh, sure. but if you got no money and plenty of time, it's hard to complain about a meager local library selection. 17:23:21 or you can pirate it! 17:23:31 Argggh! 17:23:48 Xach: heh, that's essentially what I did for the summer of '93. Nice memories. 17:24:26 pirating is green, no need to chop trees or use gas to transport interlibrary loans 17:25:09 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:25:51 Bonus: you can learn the benefits of prefetching first-hand, and keep a couple ILLs in the pipeline. 17:26:29 interesting perspective, as a person who has gone without eating because a book was more important. 17:27:11 clintm: If you don't have the energy to power your brain, the book isn't going to do you much good. 17:27:14 dude, they refused to send me my book they hadn't had it locally available at amazon i got to knew later on.... 17:27:22 ansi-lisp 17:27:44 ThomasH: Good point. 17:27:48 got me fed-up totally..... 17:28:18 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-137-175.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:28:23 since then i didn't buy a book again... 17:28:43 I can't high-horse, and I don't want to look like I am. I regularly do that until I can buy the real version. 17:29:25 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:30:33 i'll go for sonja's first then norvigs i think next time... 17:32:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:19 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:31 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:27 -!- p_l [~pl@web1.rootnode.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:42 hugod [~user@76.65.143.43] has joined #lisp 17:43:12 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 17:45:10 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:45:18 -!- kron [~Kron@59.92.183.87] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 17:45:23 p_l [~pl@web1.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:59 Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:47:42 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 17:49:07 paul0 [~paul0@201.22.85.53.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:54:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:23 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:58:35 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 18:01:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:18 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839B25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:56 hagish_ [~hagish@p57BCFBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:34 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 18:06:15 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:25 -!- clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:08:50 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 18:10:06 *pavelpenev* lives in a country where if they started locking people up for piracy, they'd have to lock up every one between 5 and 50 years of age. 18:12:29 If you had 5 mins to tell people about one thing about lisp what would it be? 18:13:04 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:06 sbryant: macros. 18:13:06 sbryant: It allows you to express your program with the least translation from concept to code. 18:13:14 that the lisp language is made of data structures not text 18:13:32 sbryant: I would tell them that lisp is a language for people with more than 5 minute attention spans :) 18:13:35 All great answers. I'll see if I can work something in to this :) 18:13:47 pavelpenev: I only have 5 mins for a presentation 18:13:57 pavelpenev: Lightning talk! 18:13:59 combination of lisp and tools allows me to go from thought to result in mere seconds 18:14:02 GitHub summit week and there are a lot of people who have to give talks. 18:14:21 meh grabbing the framebuffer stalls whole of eql, and i have to kill it 18:14:22 So we only get 5 mins 18:14:32 but rendering into pixmap works fine... 18:14:34 i don't get it 18:14:35 sbryant: I would emphasize that the language doesn't get in the way. It is moldable to the problem at hand. 18:15:02 sbryant: it's a substrate of lambda on which you can build languages that solve problems. 18:15:12 j_king: lol 18:15:27 that it has lots of neat things, each of which would take more than 5 minutes to get across 18:15:27 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:37 I'd probably tell the story of Lugh 18:15:46 sbryant: five minutes of http://xach.com/misc/lambda.html 18:15:48 what's so different about grabbing the framebuffer and rendering into pixmap ? 18:15:58 does the second not do already what the first does ? 18:16:00 Xach: I like your style 18:16:04 it has more data structures than just linked lists. 18:16:14 *Xach* goes cross-eyed 18:16:16 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449212.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:16:21 sbryant: drawn with a Lisp program (naturally) 18:16:43 I will put that on a monitor 18:16:45 sbryant: You can mention that lisp has a staying power unlike pretty much anything else, it survived the death of its main platform(the lisp machien), the death of its main aplication domain(AI), and a standartization proccess. 18:17:16 "Lisp: not dead yet." I'm sold. 18:17:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.134.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:17:52 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:01 Focus on the lambda... Focus on the lambda... Focus on the lambda... When I snap my fingers, you will go out and buy PCL. 18:18:17 I like Lisp does not look any deader to me than usual.. Or Lisp isn't dead, it just smells funny (forgime my memory if it misquoted someone) 18:18:28 it's practical. generations of knowledge and wisdom built in 18:18:32 lol 18:18:44 the one about smelling funny was originally about punk rock 18:18:44 We have a new tagline, "Common Lisp, It's Elegant" 18:19:17 pkhuong: that's how to sell it 18:21:18 Or maybe, "Common Lisp, You Know... Elegant" 18:22:46 if windows and MS suddenly disappeared, would people port VB to whatever replaces it, and fight flame wars about its virtues for decades? 18:23:20 the staying power of lisp is remarkable 18:23:29 pavelpenev: We don't fight flame wars, we educate the non-believers. 18:24:32 ThomasH: double plus good :) 18:25:01 Xach: I have brought the power to the monitors: http://instagram.com/p/OUYEzsh4hv/ 18:25:23 dealing harshly with the heretics and apostates, I notice. 18:26:07 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has left #lisp 18:26:49 sbryant: that is triple rad 18:27:45 I liked the term from redline6561_'s recent talk on his 6502 emulator something like "It's Programming Language Play Dough" 18:28:10 or a ball of mud 18:28:42 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.99.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:31:15 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:35:30 sbryant: If you can condense this in 5 minutes you'll be fine I think: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 18:35:37 Lisp: Only mostly dead 18:36:52 Guthur: redline6561_ is a pretty rad dude. need to kick my old friends in Atlanta so he can do more presentations to keep the lisp group alive 18:37:37 _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has joined #lisp 18:40:38 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:40:49 nice ceiling! 18:40:52 lol 18:41:14 i see an apple in the background! 18:41:30 <_travis_> aw i missed a picture 18:41:43 http://instagram.com/p/OUYEzsh4hv/ this one? 18:42:01 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:45 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:46:05 redline6561_: Thanks sbryant, looking forward to giving a version of that talk that's more focused on the implementation for them next month. :) 18:46:32 sbryant: just have a look at my stepper in http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/lisp ; with just replacing COMMON-LISP by CL-STEPPER in your defpackage you all the special operators are replaced by versions that let you execute code step by step, or to trace the execution. Try to do the same with any other programming language! 18:46:34 is sawyer scheduling them? If not, let me know and I'll get the group turned over to you 18:46:39 redline6561_: record it with a bigger font so its easier to read the code :) 18:46:50 Will do pavelpenev :) 18:47:26 pjb: a stepper? but doesn't the normal debug tools let you do that? I mean sbcl comes with a step debugger doesn't it? 18:47:34 sbryant: I don't think there's been one since you and slava left. I don't know that I'd be great at scheduling them either. And not sure where we'd host but I'd be happy to give it a shot. 18:47:38 sbryant: yes. But ccl doesn't have a stepper. 18:47:45 ah 18:47:51 then that's really neat 18:47:52 And it does more, letting you tracing the execution in batch. 18:48:07 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:10 time to combine pjb's portable steptools, add SICL, and have a portable standard lib :) 18:48:17 nice 18:48:46 Anyway, the principle that is demonstrated here, is that the language is so maleable that you can change or augment the semantics very easily without having to change the sources of your programs. 18:48:46 redline6561_: I'll talk to sawyer about scheduling or turning over the group. I think he's been in Erlang mode since moving to mail chimp 18:48:56 Cool. Thanks. 18:49:31 Doing the same in C++ would be a major undertaking. I did cl-stepper in one week (I had to try it thrice). 18:50:18 pjb: that is not because CL is great, but because of YOUR greatness 18:50:19 anyways, thanks for the suggestions. I'll see if I can work some of them into the presentation 18:52:01 -!- changedNicks [nuraghe@irc.upasna.in] has quit [Changing host] 18:52:01 changedNicks [nuraghe@unaffiliated/changednicks] has joined #lisp 18:52:09 -!- changedNicks is now known as sweet|kid 18:52:26 Xach: well no, if I was really great, I'd have done it in two days right the first time. 18:54:39 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 18:54:45 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:57 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:56:07 Kryztof: The story of Lugh? I get google results but not apparently related to lisp. 18:58:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:59:03 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:32 sbryant: arguably, it's got the best object system 18:59:43 sbryant: arguably, it's got the best error handling system 18:59:58 sbryant: it's got multiple high quality implementations 19:00:38 sbryant: and most importantly it does NOT have fickle BDFLs who rob users of important features 19:01:16 what are BDFLs? 19:01:19 disclaimer: a newbie 19:01:27 benevolent dictator for life 19:01:56 Ok, from now on, I'll be CL BDFL. Any macro you write will have to be approved by me! 19:02:00 redline6561_: would be awesome if you were in Europe for a talk come the next European Lisp Symposium. 19:02:17 I can think of few things I'd love more! 19:02:24 Where/When is the next ELS? 19:02:27 CL could use a BDFL. Oh well. 19:02:42 foom: you'll soon find that very inconvenient! 19:02:45 I can probably save money/vacation time to do it in 2013. Not this year though. 19:02:58 pjb: apparently Madrid, usually around April time 19:03:14 pjb: when they make CL 3000 which is completely bidirectionally incompatible with CL 2.X, yea, that might start to suck. 19:03:19 pjb: from now on my name is Brutus :) 19:03:27 pjb: it has not been confirm but I've heard Madrid mentioned a few times now 19:04:00 redline6561_: Next one will likely be April 2013 19:04:08 we've have one for 2012 already 19:04:30 Excellent. :) 19:04:52 sbryant: i once gave a history presentation about lisp. the title was "lisp, 50 years in 15 minutes" or something of the likes. you might want to do it with 5. the title will indicate its heritage, the content will indicate its effectiveness 19:04:58 pavelpenev: please wait till pjb is finished with CL. lots of good stuff at com.informatimago ;) 19:05:15 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:27 what's the use, it's all GPL! 19:05:28 sbryant: speak fast? 19:05:37 *redline6561_* starts saving for ELS 2013 19:05:49 redline6561_: here's a dime 19:05:50 *madnificent* thanks stassats` as he feels he himself is a zealot for mentioning it 19:06:02 :) 19:07:01 -!- _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:07:25 -!- paul0 [~paul0@201.22.85.53.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:08:44 redline6561_: on the wikipedia page, "Lugh joins the Tuatha Dé Danann" 19:08:53 the analogy to Lisp should be straightforward 19:10:07 Ah, interesting. Thanks. 19:12:28 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.221.129.86] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:12:32 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:13:45 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.102.233] has joined #lisp 19:13:47 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:38 voodoo_ [~voodoo@95.168.105.55] has joined #lisp 19:14:50 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:14:50 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:16:22 hello. Is it ok to do something like this? (let ((var ..)) (defun func () #| using var |#)) 19:16:41 voodoo_: Yes, that is acceptable. 19:16:53 it's ok, but better to avoid if you can 19:17:27 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:18:22 *voodoo_* thought it could be better than defparameter if its only used by one or two functions 19:18:43 not really 19:19:07 Agreed. 19:19:59 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:51 Limits the scope. and it saves typing earmuffs. ;) 19:21:20 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:21 it makes hard to redefine just the variable or redefine just the function 19:21:31 it makes the functions being defined at top-level 19:21:38 not being, that is 19:21:46 it makes code hard to read 19:22:13 why is it not being top level of any concern 19:22:20 voodoo_: learn about packages 19:22:23 clhs defun 19:22:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 19:22:52 voodoo_: I've tried that in a few cases, always ended up getting frustrated with the things stassats` mentioned. 19:23:05 see the last paragraph 19:23:09 encapsulation for encapsulations sake not the best of ideas 19:23:11 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:22 voodoo_: What is var set to? Can you move the LET form into the function? Can you move the var int &AUX? There are many options. 19:23:24 in the Description section 19:23:45 into &aux? really? 19:24:16 stassats`: What the Hell, it's there, might as well use it. 19:25:09 I cant move it into function and i have yet to learn what &aux is 19:25:17 stassats`: meta-sexp relies on &AUX extensively. It's one of the things I'd like to correct if I ever find the time and motivation. 19:25:31 ThomasH: no, it's there to tempt you 19:25:32 voodoo_: Forget anyone mentioned &aux. 19:25:42 voodoo_: If you can't move it into the function, &AUX won't help you. 19:29:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-68-2.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:30:05 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:31:17 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:33:14 fourier [~fourier@c80-217-244-174.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:33:45 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 19:38:59 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:43:41 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:45:27 On the other hand, a lexical closure will probably compile to faster code than a special variable. 19:45:33 :-) 19:45:34 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:43 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:52:20 antgreen [~user@70.50.66.74] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:53:26 Heyyyy! Who wants to test Quicklisp updates? 19:54:10 Xach: How can I be a part of history? 19:55:31 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 19:55:47 ThomasH: Shooting an archduke seems to be a pretty good option. 19:56:04 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:20 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 19:57:20 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:57:22 ThomasH: Are you using the August Quicklisp dist update? 19:57:27 sellout42: Still? That seems so 20th century. 19:57:33 (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") will get it for you if not 19:58:37 _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has joined #lisp 19:58:39 What is the solution for defining things that are essentially constant, but not eql? For example a list of constants. The only "solution" I've found that lets the compiler generate efficient code is to put it in an inline-function, which means I need to do (list-of-constants) rather than the nicer +list-of-constants+ 19:58:47 Xach: I'll check 19:59:10 jasom: (defparameter *cste* (list 1 2 3)) 19:59:36 sometimes people write (defparameter +cste+ (list 1 2 3)) but I don't think it's a good idea. 19:59:47 jasom: defvar or defglobal. use a symbol macro and load-time-value if the lookup is an issue. 20:00:13 -!- kenanb [kenanb@188.38.126.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:43 or directly go for a symbol macro if you really don't care about object identity. 20:01:31 Xach: Updated on my laptop, I can test LW 6.1 and CCL 1.8 on Win7. I could also test CCL 1.7 if you think that is useful. I could test SBCL, but I'm afraid of kittens of death. 20:02:10 ThomasH: you might want to try this in a new session, but does (ql:quickload "asdf-utils") loop forever for you? 20:03:05 Xach: I'll see, testing on my laptop so as not to screw up what I'm actually working on. 20:03:25 Looping 20:03:37 entrix [~entrix@95-24-211-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.49.140] has joined #lisp 20:05:01 Xach: Loops on both LW 6.1 and CCL 1.8, Win7. 20:06:49 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:08 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:08:37 Ok, now try a (ql:update-client) and restart 20:10:17 "Component :ASDF does not match version 2.23, required by # 20:10:27 progress! 20:10:28 Is that the correct behavior? 20:10:29 yes 20:10:31 Excellent 20:10:33 thanks! 20:10:42 No problem 20:11:02 Now I am subject to the hell of treating ASDF as a reusable utility library that is frequently updated. 20:11:05 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 20:11:49 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:12:29 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:00 Good thing it's not critical, or anything. 20:13:01 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:51 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:54 Alice4 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust329.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:32 -!- Alice4 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust329.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:05 -!- _travis_ [~travis@204.111.204.21] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:17:44 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust329.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:42 Alfa64 [~admin@190.191.176.143] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 hello 20:20:37 Hes 20:20:41 *Hey* 20:21:29 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-045-051.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:28 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@183.78.12.184] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 i'm doing some research about lisp before starting to learn it properly 20:23:18 zalzane [~zalzane@cpe-76-174-70-168.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:24 and i wanted to know if it's easy to sandbox 20:23:41 chenbing [~user@223.167.94.66] has joined #lisp 20:24:16 Alfa64: I don't think Common Lisp is easy to sandbox, aside from using a jail-type system, or a VM 20:24:29 -!- zalzane [~zalzane@cpe-76-174-70-168.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:24:42 *Xach* should email someone at franz to see how they did their telnet prompt 20:25:37 so there's no white listing approach? 20:25:51 But given how easy it is to have a VM this is arguably not a problem now 20:26:24 Alfa64: There might be, but nobody has done it, so I don't think it qualifies as "easy". 20:26:37 Alfa64: CL has a lot of tools for reflection and introspection. Plugging all the holes is *hard*. 20:27:24 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 20:27:26 oh well, reflection is a problem here 20:27:56 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-045-051.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:06 A very long time ago I did some work towards making READ be a bit safer. But you are completely at the mercy of implemention quality there (and I wonder how many versions of READ have had arbitrary crap spat at them to see what the holes are...) 20:28:08 ideone is sandboxing Guile, but they might be using jails 20:29:02 i'm interested on any kind of interpreter/compiler that can run a sandboxed lisp 20:30:30 tfb: and ## on structures pretty much calls for ugly hacks. SBCL's implementation is surprisingly deep in implementation-specific and unsafe tricks. 20:31:04 I think my thing would not read structures 20:31:38 (or do you mean general circular structure, sorry, yes, it did that) 20:32:18 (and probably was dangerous as a result) 20:32:20 I meant #S/##. 20:32:48 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:32:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:34:17 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:35:54 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Changing host] 20:35:54 stokachu [~stokachu@canonical/stokachu] has joined #lisp 20:39:13 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:32 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:27 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 20:45:31 -!- entrix [~entrix@95-24-211-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:45:37 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:05 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:50:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:50:48 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:49 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:50:49 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:00:18 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:01:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-63.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:07 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:12:16 -!- voodoo_ [~voodoo@95.168.105.55] has quit [Quit: quit] 21:12:21 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.70.5.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:12:42 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@p57BCFBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:13:21 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable063.5-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:13:55 Alfa64: ecl compiles thru gcc, so it should be as easy to do what you want with ecl as it is with gcc. 21:14:14 I submitted my website/twitter to Hacker News: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4383014 If I have some fans here (?) I'd like their help to get the ball rolling. Thanks! 21:14:28 Alfa64: but it's much easier to just boot a VM qemu, user-mode-linux, etc. 21:14:34 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:17:26 well, it seems like it, i was hoping for some language level sandboxing 21:18:07 Hexstream: you could at least a proper url 21:18:09 give 21:18:49 Aw fuck. I knew something was wrong! 21:18:57 Hexstream: "However, version 1.0 is really shitty." is going to turn off some classes of potential clients. 21:18:57 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4383014 21:18:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-255-139.lns14.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:19:06 that's easier to click 21:19:10 Alfa64: actually, since lisp is strong in metalinguistics, you can easily enough write an eval for a restricted language. 21:19:13 ThomasH: Those who dislike honesty? 21:19:22 But you have to think hard. 21:21:27 ThomasH: It's under the 'Here are some projects I deem "not so ready for consumption"' heading (so of course it can be shitty), though maybe it's not as obvious as it should be. 21:22:08 Hexstream: Those that like professional communication. You could easily say, "Version 1 leaves a lot of room for improvement. Version 2 is in the works. It is a comprehensive revision of verion 1 to incorporate lessons learned implementing version 1." 21:22:24 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-199-80.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:51 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-234-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:00 ThomasH: Well, to be fair that part of the text you're criticizing was put there ages ago when my site had pretty much nothing of interest to offer and was unlikely to be visited by anyone. Now that there might be actual people actually visiting it I might indeed be due for an audit. 21:25:09 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:25:12 I replaced "really shitty" by "... suboptimal". There. 21:25:42 See, it was just a question of documentation. 21:25:53 A suboptimal web site is already almost optimal! 21:26:22 Depends on the sarcasm value on "suboptimal"! 21:27:23 Hexstream: I wasn't trying to shoot you down. I hope you suceed and generate business off of your website. I didn't think that line was helping. 21:27:43 Sure, but PHBs and people don't mind. It's enough that commenters two step remote mention how nice your web site is for it to become true. 21:28:04 See http://day4.se/how-we-screwed-almost-the-whole-apple-community/ 21:30:05 -!- mritz [~textual@97.65.251.170] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:32:33 ThomasH: I didn't think you were trying to shoot me down (I still don't!). I appreciate any feedback, as it's sometimes hard to get by, and I think you made a valid point. The "generating business from my website" wasn't really something I considered for the near future... 21:33:15 pjb so i could write a scheme interpreter in clisp easily? 21:34:07 Wouldn't any interpreter implemented in lisp be vulerable to SQL-style injection attacks? 21:34:09 Yes, there are already several written. Eg. pseudo scheme. Some applications have a mini scheme written in CL and are written in that mini scheme (eg. Common Music). 21:34:20 ThomasH: no. 21:34:36 ThomasH: SQL-style injection comes from textual representation of code. They cannot occur with sexps. 21:34:47 It's just that I think I made some interesting stuff (with much more to come) and I'd like to get it known and get known a bit more so that I don't feel I'm working in total obscurity. 21:35:20 That's how people can write PhD theses about SQL injection: they don't know lisp. 21:36:57 I have this nagging feeling that somewhere along the line, the reader will raise an error, you'll get the debugger, and then you're out of the sandbox. Maybe everything can be caught. 21:37:18 handler-bind. 21:37:19 By the reader, I don't mean the lisp reader, I mean the custom reader for the sandbox. 21:38:36 ThomasH: why they can't occur with sepxs? 21:38:44 injections 21:38:45 Because of the parentheses. :-) 21:39:00 i mean it depends of what you do with the read data 21:39:12 ThomasH: and you couldn't catch all errors from your custom reader? 21:39:32 `(select ,columns (:table ,your-table) (:where ,condition)). 21:40:06 any decent interpreter should understand eval( string ) , unless it resolves the string value before the eval,which should be weird 21:40:19 if that's what you mean 21:40:35 regardless, code in your language is probably not going to be in a position to touch the underlying debugger 21:40:40 interesting, why low-end linode vps executes common lisp several times faster than my 4 cores laptom... 21:40:45 (or you have bigger issues already) 21:41:14 the number of cores doesn't mean much 21:41:14 (eval "system(\"reboot\");") => "system(\"reboot\");" 21:41:32 No injection in lisp. 21:41:54 A string is data, it's not code to be executed. 21:42:36 stassats`: yes. i just mean that the processor is relatevely modern 21:42:43 intel core i7 21:42:45 And backquote comma let you build expression from structured parts, so you cannot "inject" expressions where they don't belong, like you can with a well placed quote semi-colon in strings. 21:43:01 and the VPS is the cheapest one 21:43:06 antonv, just try to launch 30-40 instances of the program, you'll notice the difference right away 21:43:23 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:47 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d097c52.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:16 Alfa64: locally I run two instances and diveded work between them. On the VPS I run single instance doing all the work. VPS is already finished, while both local programs are still in the middle of their tasks 21:44:27 iocor [~textual@87.194.167.19] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 -!- iocor [~textual@87.194.167.19] has quit [Changing host] 21:44:38 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:45:08 -!- Alfa64 [~admin@190.191.176.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:22 about injections 21:45:26 Alfa64 [~admin@190.191.176.143] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 if you speak only SQL I don't know 21:45:49 In lisp, any other language is sexpified before being processed. 21:45:50 but for example I receive sexp data from 3rd party and generate html pages from it 21:46:05 antonv: so, have you tried running a single instance on your laptop? 21:46:23 If I don't do proper html escaping, the 3rd party can inject into my HTML 21:46:36 running things in parallel doesn't mean it's going to be faster if it's badly parallelized 21:47:06 stassats`: for example, how it can be slower when run in parallel? 21:47:23 when it's badly written 21:47:26 stassats`: well, of course I have single hard drive 21:47:45 and they can compete for the hard drive 21:47:55 aside from that no interaction between the programs 21:48:24 you though about hard drive and not about RAM? 21:48:31 well-known fact: the easiest way to make a program scale to multiple cores is to make the serial version slower than necessary ;) 21:48:59 antonv: just run a single instance and tell us is it faster or not 21:49:00 stassats`: they run in separate OS processes... 21:49:09 and? 21:49:12 ok, when these two will finish 21:49:20 can't you kill them? 21:49:35 stassats`: and they should use different RAM areas. Of course the bus... 21:49:42 stassats`: no, I need the results 21:50:20 and the shared cache 21:51:08 stassats`: "when it's badly written" - I think it is hardly possible :))) 21:52:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:54:10 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 21:56:51 -!- fourier [~fourier@c80-217-244-174.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:57:17 I had run single version previously but and have impression it was slower, but I don't remmember exact times. When these two parallel versions will finish I will extract their run times from logs and will run a single version to compare 21:58:12 And the fact is, when I run single version locally, VPS was faster anyway 21:58:49 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4d097c52.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:32 and what CPU does VPS have? 21:59:43 -!- Alfa64 [~admin@190.191.176.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01:04 stassats`: I don't know... 22:02:12 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: sudden death] 22:02:16 how to find it out on linux? uname -a says it's i686 22:02:16 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.219.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:02:29 cat /proc/cpuinfo 22:02:30 piko_ [~piko@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 22:02:57 and if you're using hard drive intensively, it might as well have a faster one 22:03:35 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:03 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131032 22:05:44 my local cpu is 1.60 GHz Intel Core processor i7-720QM 22:06:18 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:08:33 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:41 it is "mobile" processor, for laptoms, so the VPS seems to just have better processor 22:09:00 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable063.5-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:09:39 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:40 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:09:40 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:10:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.49.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:10:15 at turbo frequency, it should be 2.8GHz, are you sure that you're not aggressively downscaling it? 22:10:54 agressively? no 22:11:09 how can I downscale it? 22:12:50 by using powersave cpufreq on linux, for example 22:12:59 then it will always be using 1.6GHz 22:13:45 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 22:17:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:17:03 it is under windows 22:17:16 I do nothing special 22:18:37 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:18:37 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:37 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:18:50 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:19:58 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 22:20:03 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:33 these server processors are just bettter then mine 22:24:11 the local tasks are not finished yet, so I think comparing them to a single task will be done next time 22:24:49 without strict benchmarking, I just remmember that single version was slower 22:27:20 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:31:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:31:59 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:32:05 maybe windows is to blame 22:33:24 possible 22:33:25 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 22:34:07 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-76-26-112-202.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 22:34:58 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:35:54 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:22 guess what guys, bullshit about lisp made the HN front page again :) http://kresimirbojcic.com/2012/08/14/why-lisp-did-not-and-never-will-gain-enough-traction.html 22:36:52 WHAT?! 22:36:57 Let's develop killer applications in lisp! 22:37:15 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 actually it's good 22:37:56 bit of desinformation 22:38:34 so that nobody knows our secret 22:40:06 let's press Like on this page 22:40:24 Its written by someone who cloned my brain 3 years ago and used it to generate random bullshit 22:41:57 -!- williamherry [~williamhe@211.101.24.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:42:12 brainclonners passed all bounds! 22:42:20 how did he clonned your brain? 22:42:44 can at least #lisp be exempt from the randomness? thanks 22:42:47 maybe he read my HN comments and trained an AI to sound like a stupid 19 year old :) 22:43:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c33bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:32 *pavelpenev* leaves #lisp alone and goes off to write a humorous response 22:43:34 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 22:44:08 -!- theron [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:44:34 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:45:24 williamherry [~williamhe@211.101.24.8] has joined #lisp 22:46:51 pavelpenev: forget, he is just trolling 22:47:30 antonv: sometimes I like to feed trows in the hope that they get diabetes 22:49:28 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust329.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:51:38 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:36 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:33 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:01:18 lemonodor [4ca95879@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.169.88.121] has joined #lisp 23:01:54 -!- williamherry [~williamhe@211.101.24.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:05 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 23:06:24 pavelpenev: that blog was somewhat 'meh' 23:06:39 though I would be interested to know how reddit turned out fast with less code in python 23:08:06 One problem I think is somewhat common is that too many significantly complex CL projects that might act as a community 'glue' especially in the area of webdev lack any sort of documentation 23:08:38 Guthur: If I remember correctly reddit ran on CMUCL, but it was developed on clisp on a mac 23:08:58 weblocks and UCW are most like superb solutions but the learn curve is unnecessarily steep due to lack of any sort of meaningful documentation 23:09:14 s/like/likely 23:09:26 -!- kanedank` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:09:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:59 restas+postmodern+whatever that can output html works fine for me 23:10:00 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-oklobqsbekvksekx] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:10:04 pavelpenev: yeah, CMUCL/green threads/fbsd, because SBCL/real threads/linux was just too mainstream. 23:11:33 pkhuong: but using lisp was a bad idea in the first place, they only chose it because of their worship for PG 23:12:53 hero worship is a bad way to make tech choices, even if that choice is lisp. 23:13:23 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 23:14:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-72.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:14 that kind of posts are quite discouraging though for people that are just learning lisp, ive been putting a good amount of time into it because I actually like it a lot, but you see posts like that, or some of the things they mention, like people that say everyone else sucks because they dont use lisp, or the lack of flashy applications (or the fact that anyone else I know knows lisp) 23:15:14 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:16 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:50 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-291-9.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:15:51 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-398-233.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:16:32 you start to wonder if its worth it, I think it is just for the learning experience, but I've become afraid of getting too deep into Lisp and not being able to move forward, like getting a job using it, or bulding cool stuff with it and some friends, etc. 23:19:25 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has joined #lisp 23:19:53 ebobby: It's a very convenient substrate for expressing abstract ideas in code 23:20:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:15 you will very rarely find yourself at an odds with the language to express any of your ideas 23:20:34 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:20:39 and for that reason think it's a very good place to hone ones software engineering skillset 23:22:24 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:43 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 23:23:00 ebobby: don't let them get to you man, "the learning experience" for me is inseparable from actual use of lisp. The best way to defeat fears is with knowledge. 23:23:02 There are plenty of good libraries. Though outside of coding on implementations most projects seem be of the lonewolf variety 23:23:50 Guthur: that seems to be the case for almost all open source, only the popular projects get a lot of contributors 23:23:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:29 pavelpenev: yep, but it's the popular ones that get a lot of the publicity 23:24:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:24:58 http://lisperator.net/blog/why-lisp/  that's my 2¢ on it 23:27:25 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:27:56 *pavelpenev* goes for a smoke break 23:28:26 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:29 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.132.102.233] has quit [Quit: paul0] 23:32:27 ikki [~ikki@189.247.86.110] has joined #lisp 23:33:16 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:13 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:23 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-39.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:35:47 Why does (typep (make-instance 'kitten) 'standard-class) return nil? Kitten is a CLOS class and this is in SBCL. 23:35:59 only popular projects get a lot of contributors by definition 23:36:17 Or rather how can I check if an object is an instance of any CLOS class? 23:36:22 nightfly: an object, or a class? 23:36:31 nightfly: (typep whatever 'standard-object) 23:36:36 Bike: object, sorry 23:37:14 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:09 Bike: Oh, okay. Cool, thanks. 23:38:33 nightfly: don't mix up classes and objects, you'll be confused. 23:38:44 <_travis_> i'm having trouble finding the source-registry.config.d file on os x to set the tree to scan for ASDF files. i installed it using quick lisp, if that matters. 23:39:26 <_travis_> and part of the trouble may be my misunderstanding of how to use asdf in the first place :o 23:39:43 _travis_: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems.html is maybe what you want? 23:39:52 <_travis_> yeah i've read that :( 23:39:59 <_travis_> and either i'm not every smart or what i need isn't there :( 23:40:03 <_travis_> but i'll look again! 23:40:20 ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf? 23:40:32 <_travis_> i don't have ~/.config ... 23:40:42 <_travis_> or it's hidden and I don't have access to it. 23:40:50 -!- lemonodor [4ca95879@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.169.88.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:40:54 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has left #lisp 23:41:55 _travis_: sorry if I'm underestimating how well you know your system, but you can show hidden files and directories with ls -a. in any case, you have to make the config file. e.g. http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 23:42:43 <_travis_> Bike, new to os x but toyed with plenty of different linux distress. i've done ls -a to verify I cannot see a ~/.config, I will check out the link you just posted though 23:44:01 _travis_: you can just copy stuff in local-projects, if you use quiclisp. 23:44:26 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:44:37 <_travis_> yeah, where he sets his tree thats exactly what i want, but i was worried that the absence of ~/.config indicated I did something wrong in a prior step, and that simply creating it may/may not work or worse skip the hint that there was a problem. 23:45:18 <_travis_> pkhuong, i'm not entirely sure what you mean, but i'm starting to do tutorials and i wanted to get used to ASDF from the start. 23:45:59 quicklisp sets things up so ASDF will look where QL installs stuff, and in QL's local-projects directory. 23:46:17 <_travis_> yes i see that when i had it print the variable it uses to hold that :) 23:46:26 <_travis_> i see what you mean now :) 23:46:38 ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has joined #lisp 23:47:37 _travis_: I don't think you need no know anything more than how to edit an ASD file, and you can let quickproject generate it for you 23:50:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:20 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:51:20 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:51:46 <_travis_> thank you for pointing me towards quick project. going to check out mach's blog post. should help with exactly what i need. 23:54:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:55:28 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:57:05 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has quit [Quit: PuercoPop] 23:57:21 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:58:43 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:58:57 i need to update it sometime soon 23:59:04 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:25 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.180] has joined #lisp 23:59:29 ebobby: Ruby programmers don't wait on Python programmers to write their libraries. 23:59:47 Why should lisper wait on blob programmers for their libraries and tools? 23:59:59 Why should they care what blob programmers think of lisp?