00:00:32 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has joined #lisp 00:00:35 Actually it's Monday here, but I haven't slept yet. 00:00:40 So it doesn't count. 00:01:13 I guess you could be in the far east, but I rarely find that part of the world online. 00:02:17 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:04:02 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:09 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:13:52 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:16:32 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:17:43 Kabie [~kabie3000@101.229.217.116] has joined #lisp 00:19:09 -!- Kabie [~kabie3000@101.229.217.116] has left #lisp 00:33:54 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:37:09 agumonkey [~agu@191.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:09 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Disconnected by 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02:10:05 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:12:17 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.193.228] has joined #lisp 02:14:44 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.193.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:19 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-172-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:48 -!- lmj_ [~lmj@c-76-127-174-97.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:15:53 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:02 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.193.228] has joined #lisp 02:22:33 ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:02 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:24 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:24:39 Hi guys 02:33:05 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ultfeljpyzmochdc] has joined #lisp 02:33:54 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:34:13 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] 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[~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:27:00 hi I'm new here. 03:27:41 -!- rj-code [~rj-code@bb219-75-77-233.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: rj-code] 03:29:28 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:35:15 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-129-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:35:35 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:00 KenLZhang: welcome 03:39:35 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:42:07 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-63-82-226.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 03:43:17 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:32 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:54:16 Hey, has anyone been through the hunchentoot clsql crash course blog post at http://langnostic.blogspot.ca/2011/08/cl-chan-clsql-and-hunchentoot-crash.html ? 03:54:54 I'm going through it now (I'm a lisp slime emacs newb) and I'm running into issues that are hard to explain 03:55:28 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:58:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:58:58 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:42 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 04:00:14 jimmy__: what issues? 04:03:20 -!- jimmy__ [4086ed57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.134.237.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:03:41 jimmy__ [4086ed57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.134.237.87] has joined #lisp 04:04:17 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: going to mars brb] 04:04:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:04:52 DataLinkDroid: when I get to the part in the tutorial where I am instructed to define a new class and then instantiate an object, when I eval the expression or go to the repl and (load file), the repl seems to complain that my objects symbol isn't bound 04:05:20 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:05:28 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:35 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 04:06:50 Kron__ [~Kron@59.92.142.142] has joined #lisp 04:07:26 minion: lisppaste 04:07:26 lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 04:07:38 jimmy__: can you paste the complaint? 04:08:39 Unbound variable: TEST-COMMENT 04:08:55 oh oops 04:09:02 you meant with the links just provided, hang on 04:09:13 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.28] has joined #lisp 04:09:28 jimmy__: you also need to post your actual code that is giving the error 04:09:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:10:08 Kron [~Kron@59.92.141.244] has joined #lisp 04:10:12 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.193.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:45 jimmy__: up until now, no one had any idea you were up to the bit that asks you to create a class for COMMENT 04:11:23 DataLinkDroid: I understand. I'm making the pastes now 04:12:01 jimmy__: did you forget to quote the class name in make-instance? 04:12:09 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@59.92.142.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:12:12 The code I'm using is here http://paste.lisp.org/+2T36, I'm making a paste of the complaint 04:12:52 pkhuong: no I didn't miss that 04:14:33 I annotated that paste with the error 04:15:23 jimmy__: is your REPL in the CL-CHAN package? 04:16:01 pkhuong: something tells me not. 04:16:25 If you're using SLIME's REPL, the package name is printed to the left of the > prompt. 04:16:30 doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that code. normally, you would use *TEST-COMMENT* though with the muffs to indicate it is a special variable 04:16:47 It's also a good idea to denote special variables with *asterisks*, to avoid accidental scoping issues. 04:17:00 pkhuong: no its not indicated 04:17:23 all: what makes this variable special vs other variables I may make, that would suggest the use of the muffs? 04:17:48 DEFPARAMETER creates special variables 04:17:48 "CL-USER>" means that you're in CL-USER. You can (in-package "CL-CHAN"). 04:17:50 "special" is a technical term in Lisp. Variables declared with defparameter are special. 04:18:05 jimmy__: special means dynamically scoped here. 04:18:41 hmm ok I'll look up those terms. 04:19:32 jimmy__: you can also CTRL C followed by ALT P and type the package name (CL-CHAN) 04:19:46 but in my file I have an (in-package :cl-chan) Is that being ignored for some reason when I load the file? 04:19:58 that applies to the file, not your REPL 04:20:18 jimmy__: the code in the file is evaluated "within" that package 04:20:45 ok. I can keep that in mind 04:20:57 jimmy__: if you copy and past your code into the REPL you will find you are in the correct package 04:21:10 DataLinkDroid: it's not ALT P, it's M-p for Meta p. 04:21:27 pjb: sure :) 04:21:46 so what is different between loading the file vs pasting the contents into the repl? 04:21:53 and thanks, that seemed to do the trick 04:21:55 If I type C-c A-p, I get "C-c A-p is undefined". 04:22:17 zyfwong [~zyfwong@202.38.79.140] has joined #lisp 04:22:30 pjb: okay, so you're on mac or something. i get it... :) 04:22:43 DataLinkDroid: code is not evaluated within or "within" packages! 04:22:43 what's the A modifier? 04:22:53 DataLinkDroid: no, we're on emacs. 04:22:55 DataLinkDroid: sexps are READ "in" packages! 04:23:03 Bike: Alt. 04:23:05 Bike: Alt (: 04:23:09 ...ah 04:23:33 jimmy__: Files are sort of self-contained, so for example you can load a lot of files without changing the package on the REPL if you're doing something. 04:23:41 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:52 pjb: really?? you're being a bit pedantic in language when the idea of being "in" a package is a perfectly good approximation to begin with 04:24:32 well, thinking of it that way can confuse people such that they get package-not-found errors, etc 04:24:47 DataLinkDroid: it's not a place where approximations are good. 04:24:50 DataLinkDroid: READing is usually what matters. That's actually an important distinction. 04:25:16 In Lisp, it's important to distinguish read time, compilation time, macro expansion time and run-time, if you don't want to be utterly confused. 04:26:01 jimmy__: LOAD binds *package* and *readtable*, so after load finishes those variables are reset to their previous values 04:26:04 pjb: what time is file load time? 04:26:07 do you think the learner knows what READING is, or cares right now? :) perhaps you could go into a detailed explanation of how the Lisp reader works? :) 04:26:34 jimmy__: *package* is set by the (in-package ...) form, which is what makes reading happen in that package 04:27:03 oops there's that word "in" again... :) 04:27:58 oh 04:28:07 jimmy__: loading is what you want to be doing, either follow pkhuong's suggestion to (in-package :cl-chan) at the repl or package qualify the symbols, e.g. cl-chan::test-comment 04:28:09 DataLinkDroid: a good book, like PCL, will cover that. 04:28:22 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:29:01 hmm maybe I should check that book out first 04:29:15 I guess I am that new 04:29:22 rj-code [~rj-code@bb219-75-77-233.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:30:21 well thanks everyone, that was quite enlightening. For future reference, is this the proper channel for talking about such issues? 04:30:25 jimmy__: there are several important concepts in Lisp that differ from many other common languages people normally have experience with these days. the subtle but important differences can indeed cause confusion, as the others have hinted at 04:31:12 of course, some people just like to have their immediate problem solved so they can get on with learning... :) 04:31:24 williamherry [~williamhe@211.101.24.8] has joined #lisp 04:31:58 DataLinkDroid: and some other people may prefer to learn so they can get on with solving their problems. I find this attitude more reasonable. 04:32:27 pjb: off you go :) 04:32:38 I doubt it. 04:32:56 jimmy__: you can ask questions here, sure. 04:33:11 pjb: i mean: please continue with your lesson... not asking you to go away... ;-) 04:33:48 -!- zyfwong [~zyfwong@202.38.79.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:35:09 All right. 04:41:48 -!- blbef [~chatzilla@089144206153.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 04:44:31 jimmy__: yep, ask away. we try to be helpful. there are some very knowledgeable people here who have forgotten more than i know :) 04:47:29 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rakrpxhglzwgzzfo] has joined #lisp 04:47:29 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-rakrpxhglzwgzzfo] has quit [Changing host] 04:47:29 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:48:49 hi, recently i read Hackers and Painters, it looks lisp is a great language, so I want try to learn(at least take a look at) it, can some one tell me how to start? 04:48:58 Are you a programmer? 04:50:12 Then go to http://cliki.net/ all the pointers are there. 04:52:35 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:53 pjb: Thanks 04:53:58 masteraka [~Adium@204.28.123.86] has joined #lisp 04:56:04 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.36.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:56:19 Thanks again all 04:58:34 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:02:03 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:04:52 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-182-69.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:08:02 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 05:13:08 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:17:52 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 05:18:06 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:30:44 ronea334 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[~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:54:27 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:57:35 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:59:17 abeaumont [~Alfredo@138.Red-79-157-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:07:21 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 09:07:31 -!- basho [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:38 basho [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 09:08:29 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 I have coded a small script, which works fine from the repl. But how does i compile it, so its fast, easy to call terminal, easy to ship to non-dev machine (without lisp installed it possible). I'm using Sbcl. 09:19:49 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:19:50 mskou72: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html 09:20:21 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 09:21:54 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:44 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: eternal darkness] 09:23:04 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:23:36 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.219.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:36 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:25:01 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:25:53 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 09:30:41 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 aerique: Thanks ext:save-lisp-and-die insbcl works like a charm. But the file size is about 41MB, which seems rather large. I guess it's a full Lisp which is packed into the file. Nice sometimes, but can it be avoided to gain a smaller file size? 09:36:02 disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has joined #lisp 09:36:03 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wvfxvjcjwuwubvwy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:37:19 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:37:38 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38:30 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:38:36 -!- ngz` is now known as ngz 09:42:23 -!- snearch [~snearch@pD4B887CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:42:35 mskou72: Most of the "small programs" you're used to seeing are actually rather massive. They just hide it with a dynamic linker and a standard library that's part of the base OS. 09:43:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:44:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:48:40 vaus [~vaus@91.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:40 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.150] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 09:50:38 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.28] has joined #lisp 09:54:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rqruhrnbpeckxxxl] has joined #lisp 09:54:43 mskou72: you can write compressed images, but that is about it. 09:56:50 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 Ok. I was just under the impression that Lisp could almost rival c/c++ in speed. But that must be without taking load time into consideration. 09:57:30 mskou72: did you measure the load time? 09:57:52 No, not yet. Just an assumption (maybe i'm wrong :-) 09:57:58 you are wrong. 09:59:26 jdz [~jdz@89.201.99.128] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:01:13 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:03:17 darude [~darude@37.244.141.77] has joined #lisp 10:03:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.2] 10:06:28 cant sbcl create executable without embedding compiler? 10:06:36 darude: no. 10:07:52 darude: besides, the compiler is only part of the "problem". the real issue is that everything in a lisp image is interlinked, so everything that the garbage collector sees also goes into an image. 10:08:18 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B463.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:42 darude: in the past, there have been "tree shakers" that tried to minimize the visible objects before writing images, thereby reducing image sizes. nowadays, this is rarely useful because memory and disk are so cheap. 10:08:57 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 darude: i.e. the cost of implementing a useful tree shaker is higher than the cost of having large images. 10:10:11 U believe ecl and lispworks (maybe others too) can significantly reduce executable size by simply excluding compiler 10:10:23 I believe 10:10:46 darude: sure, it is all possible if you spend sufficient time on it. 10:11:02 darude: allegro also has an option to not include the compiler in generated applications 10:11:12 darude: but that does not mean that the images are small. just smaller. 10:14:17 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:30 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:15:28 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:18 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 10:20:28 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:21:27 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:23:19 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:23:44 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@115.164.2.31] has joined #lisp 10:25:39 -!- trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:38c3:34a5:2bd6:7949] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:26:48 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:27:06 trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:18ee:34a5:2bd6:7949] has joined #lisp 10:27:24 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 10:31:30 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:25 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:33:51 A simple compiled hello world in sbcl executed 100 times in a batch loop and timed to 1.8 seconds. Compared to 0.3 for the same in c. Its not a good example but it shows considerable load time. 10:36:55 mskou72: your point being? 10:37:14 -!- xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:37:16 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:38:23 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 10:38:27 jdz: I was asking pref for means to lower the size of a compiled Lisp program and was asked to time it to make sure it mattered. 10:38:52 mskou72: so, after you measured, is it fast enough for you? 10:38:55 theron [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:21 -!- KenLZhang [~quassel@202.103.17.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:42 antonv [2e35c394@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.148] has joined #lisp 10:40:03 I guess the real solution would be to make the process a daemon and avoid starting over. 10:40:37 mskou72: REPL is lisp's shell 10:40:51 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:40:54 same way as /bin/sh is C shell 10:41:24 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 10:41:47 That might be the correct way to view it. 10:41:57 Greetings lispers 10:42:03 Start up time was only 18 ms. That doesnt strike me as too slow for most use cases 10:42:44 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-255-139.lns14.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:44:31 -!- DataLink_ [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-255-139.lns14.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:45:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:46:37 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:47:09 -!- MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@115.164.2.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47:22 At least its twice as fast as Python (3.5 secs) 10:48:50 for start up. For computation difference is likely a lot more significant 10:50:32 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=python3 10:52:26 yes be all means, was not trying to disrespect, just trying to figure out the pros and cons. 10:53:21 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:8fc:67d:6801:1b0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:53:23 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rqruhrnbpeckxxxl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:57:37 The language used is almost always less significant than the algorithms... 11:00:50 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has left #lisp 11:00:58 On the good ole shoutout, I would expect that there is little improvement to be made from algorithms. Everything on that shootout has probably been micro-tuned. 11:01:44 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@115.164.2.31] has joined #lisp 11:02:07 Odin: Sure i abs concur, that one reason i like Python. But lets say you want to exe something each time a mail server receives a mail, you need to consider startup time. 11:02:43 mskou72: i'd just leave the process running if it needs to run often enough. 11:02:43 mskou72: In that case, you better use C. 11:03:21 H4ns: yes i world rather use such a solution than c :-) 11:03:49 mskou72: Be careful with your metrics. 11:04:33 can you elaborate? 11:05:34 mskou72: Make sure that your metric, startup time for example, is actually a limiting factor for what you are trying to do and therefore must influence your decision. 11:06:17 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hewdkocuukzjrcvr] has joined #lisp 11:09:04 ThomasH: Yes, sure. Have not done much with Lisp yet. Have used Python, but wanted to try using s functional language. So I'm also curious about how such real world problems are handled. 11:10:18 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 11:10:36 mskou72: Common Lisp isn't just functional, it's multi-paradigm. It has a very sophisticated object system. 11:13:39 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:14:42 not got around the the CLOS just yet :-) 11:17:01 Kuloto [~mro@58.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 11:17:10 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:18:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:19:30 mskou72: I think the CLOS is a major advantage of Common Lisp over other languages. 11:21:15 I've been learning CLOS recently, thought it was interesting that methods dont belong to classes 11:24:25 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:24:43 darude: It makes more sense to keep classes separate from methods. 11:24:48 is there any way to convince loop to pull n items off a list at a time? 11:25:44 magnificrab: n being arbitrary? If n isn't too large, loop will destructure. 11:26:41 ThomasH: assume n is too large for practical destructuring 11:27:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:31:08 disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has joined #lisp 11:31:15 magnificrab: (loop for z on '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) by #'cdddr 11:31:15 collect (subseq z 0 3)) 11:31:41 magnificrab: Something along the lines of that. Put it in an FLET to replace #'CDDDR. 11:32:10 magnificrab: That's just a first cut, there is probably a better way. 11:32:37 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:34:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hewdkocuukzjrcvr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:38:50 -!- Kuloto [~mro@58.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:40:32 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:40:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.2] 11:40:40 zyfwong [~zyfwong@202.38.79.140] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-255-139.lns14.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:41:43 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wrrxiqcomtprtkzf] has joined #lisp 11:48:27 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:49:09 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-48.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:49:17 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 11:52:50 -!- darude [~darude@37.244.141.77] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:53:15 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:54:29 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:51 agumonkey [~agu@191.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:00 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:02 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:10:05 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:12:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:13:30 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-zgauscnletqmqyob] has joined #lisp 12:13:30 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-zgauscnletqmqyob] has quit [Changing host] 12:13:31 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:17:00 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-195-212.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:17:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:19:21 jimmy__ [4086ed57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.134.237.87] has joined #lisp 12:19:25 I think I did something to my emacs and now I don't get the documentation strings in the message bar when editing my .lisp file. The buffer is still in Lisp Autodoc mode thought.... 12:20:09 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:20:12 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-77-137.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:26:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:32:14 -!- zyfwong [~zyfwong@202.38.79.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:04 -!- Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:37:18 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:41:55 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:43:42 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:45:10 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:48:29 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-137-175.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:54 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 12:58:50 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 13:01:34 is there a trivial-quit library? or is it in something existing? 13:02:17 snearch [~snearch@pD4B887CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:52 -!- theron [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:07 There some cross-implementation code in CLON. 13:04:23 He might have nicked it from somewhere else not sure. 13:04:41 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:05:13 argh, there's several CLON's.. give me a moment 13:05:23 http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php 13:05:47 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 13:06:00 heh 13:06:39 don't know whether it is in quicklisp (but at least not as :clon) 13:06:46 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 13:07:22 it's com.dvlsoft.clon 13:07:45 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:09:21 anyone know why autodoc may stop appearing in the minibuffer even though the mode is active and slime is clearly communicating with my lisp instance? 13:09:54 jimmy__: I've seen that happen when a thread is stuck 13:10:11 Xach: swank has swank-backend:quit-lisp 13:10:14 jimmy__: I'm afraid I don't know many details, or how to fix. I think I killed some threads to get it back. 13:10:27 Xach: see clon-1.0b22/src/util.lisp line 297 13:10:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 xach: killed them in your os process manager? or something in emacs? 13:10:45 disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 jimmy__: sb-ext:interrupt-thread on suspicious-looking thread objects 13:11:29 xach: how do I list all thread objects? (I'm rather new to this environment, but clearly I know enough to hang myself) 13:11:30 aerique, Vivitron, thanks. Someone has requested that I add their personal utility library to Lisp, and I am getting ever more hesitant to do that sort of thing. 13:11:40 jimmy__: (sb-thread:list-all-threads) is one way. 13:12:16 xach: I guess I'll have to get that package 13:12:20 M-x slime-list-threads 13:12:30 jimmy__: if you don't have that package, you are not using sbcl 13:12:31 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:12:39 and the advice i offer does not really apply 13:13:02 xach: I had a feeling about that, but no, I'm using ccl 13:13:10 stassats: thanks 13:13:34 killing threads is "k" 13:14:13 stassats: does slime or whoever responsible automatically reload them when they are needed, in case I kill something that was healthy? 13:14:23 no 13:14:58 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 stassats: hmm. ok, well then maybe I'll just try restarting everything and see where that gets me 13:16:23 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:17:03 -!- MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@115.164.2.31] has quit [Quit: Bye bye now] 13:18:27 the bordeaux-threads system abstracts the implementation details and presents a unified interface: (bordeaus-threads:all-threads) 13:18:43 er.. s/bordeaus/bordeaux 13:19:07 -!- ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:18 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-251-57.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:25:22 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-116.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-116.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:25:22 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:26:15 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 13:26:22 I couldn't tell what looked suspicious, so I just restarted everything 13:27:39 -!- vaus [~vaus@91.Red-83-33-84.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: vaus] 13:27:54 -!- Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 13:29:12 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:30:54 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32:54 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.99.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:17 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 13:36:06 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-137-175.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:36:19 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-52-164.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:36:55 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:38:49 bye for now 13:38:51 -!- mskou72 [~mskou@0x50a277b6.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1109.rdnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:39:28 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 13:39:31 centipedefarmer [~centipede@70-58-137-175.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:55 *Xach* is pondering a line in the sand on personal utility libraries 13:40:01 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:15 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:27 I got a discouraging response from asking someone to consider using an existing library rather than creating their own. 13:40:29 Sounds reasonable. 13:40:47 "I prefer to write utilities myself, it doesn't take much time." 13:40:51 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:56 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-52-164.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:48 well, if an existing library already has functionality, then ok, adding anything to alexandria or just even fixing bugs proved to be futile 13:42:15 Xach: Since Quicklisp seamlessly uses local repositories with ASDF definitions, it is completely reasonable to not include personal utilitities. 13:42:54 Xach: just refuse to include projects that use any 13:43:04 I think that's totally reasonable 13:43:18 stassats: I have so far gotten the vibe of "I don't care to even look" rather than "I looked but mine is better for reason X, Y, and Z" 13:44:11 I am not 100% opposed to adding new utility libraries, but I'd like to get some feeling of a desire to help reduce overlapping library proliferation if possible. 13:44:33 It's trivial enough to suck personal utility functions into the project itself 13:44:34 Xach: I even think you could raise the bar a bit on what is included. 13:45:03 ThomasH: the more specific issue is that the request is more like "I wrote interesting projects FOO and BAR, please add them, and they depend on my personal utility library BAZ, so add that too" 13:45:08 stassats: fork it? 13:45:17 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.2] has joined #lisp 13:45:21 ThomasH: I should be explicit about how low my bar is 13:45:24 I think if you want to put a personal utilities library into quicklisp, at the very least it should have a function dictionary documenting it. 13:45:27 dlowe: or become a maintainer? 13:46:36 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-52-164.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:47:34 stassats: forking open source projects is a popular way to eventually become the maintainer of the original 13:47:34 copy-pasting utilities seems like less work than maintaining alexandria 13:47:43 Do I have to have to have my defparameter calls ordered such that anything I user in a later defparameter has already been def'd? 13:48:31 jimmy__: naturally 13:48:37 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:30 stassats: the :method-combination bug report was cool 13:49:38 cool 13:49:39 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 13:49:43 *Xach* has enjoyed all the recent stassats abcl messages 13:50:31 I think fixing this solved another bug that me and (mostly) Erik banged our heads against for 2 weeks 13:50:56 stassats: To be coy, if it were natural I would have thought of that :-D. 13:51:03 i have a PhD in debugging 13:52:00 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:52:11 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 13:52:51 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.141.244] has joined #lisp 13:53:05 stassats: so I take it that with defmethods, symbols can remain unbound until the method is called, but this isn't the case for parameters? 13:53:08 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:53:30 right 13:53:35 jimmy__: the code of a defun or method is not needed until it's called, but the value of a variable is needed when it is referenced. 13:55:05 xach: I can keep that in mind. I was just again carrying over assumptions from c++. Its turning out to be harder than I thought to remember all the things I now assume while I'm writing this code. 13:55:31 that can be quite a struggle but it goes away after a while 13:58:20 so I got into this pickle because I was evaluating statements as I was following along and adding them to the file, but I wasn't taking care of where I was placing them. So when I had to restart everything to get autodoc back up, I ran into the problem when I went to load the file. I think I understand all the steps now 13:58:46 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 13:58:57 and for future reference, is there a way to leave the lisp instance running and just restart slime and emacs? 13:59:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:00:11 there's, but it's inconvenient 14:00:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:04:49 stassats: ok, thanks. 14:05:23 Tijn [~Tijn@178.229.69.79] has joined #lisp 14:06:01 redscare [~user@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:59 -!- Tijn [~Tijn@178.229.69.79] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:38 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:24 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:13:01 Kvaks_ [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 -!- Kvaks_ [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host 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[Quit: Verlassend] 15:16:42 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-52-164.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 15:20:45 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-yaiwvsjeghqtaixr] has joined #lisp 15:22:05 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:26:00 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:26:16 Forty-3 [~seana11@75-145-119-42-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:52 jdz [~jdz@89.201.99.128] has joined #lisp 15:28:20 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:55 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:30:04 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 15:30:59 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:08 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 15:32:32 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:32:54 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.217] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.174.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:07 Hello guys 15:34:24 Hey 15:34:31 What's up? 15:34:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:36:45 jimmy__: the point is that when loading a lisp file (or loading the fasl file), the toplevel forms are then EXECUTED! Each one of them. 15:37:15 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:20 pjb: ohhhhhhh well then 15:37:32 jimmy__: a defun or a defmethod is executed, meaning, the fbinding of the symbol to the function is established. For defparameter, the expression is evaluated and bound to the variable symbol. 15:38:01 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:04 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:10 -!- pskosinski is now known as Idkblaze 15:38:13 pjb: ok, that makes sense. thanks! 15:38:15 -!- Idkblaze is now known as idkblaze 15:38:20 ok gotta go, bbl 15:38:29 -!- jimmy__ [4086ed57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.134.237.87] has quit [] 15:38:44 jimmy__: so, what you can do, notably for variables, is to actually assign their value in an initialization function. Then you can easily decide whether you want this initialization to occur when loading the file (just call (initialize) as a toplevel form at the end of the file), or whether you leave the client of the library to call it when he finds it convenient. 15:38:56 I need help. I'm working on a presentation for the upcoming weekend, and I can't seem to find accurate information when the first McCarthy Lisp was actually released 15:38:57 minion: memo for jimmy__: so, what you can do, notably for variables, is to actually assign their value in an initialization function. Then you can easily decide whether you want this initialization to occur when loading the file (just call (initialize) as a toplevel form at the end of the file), or whether you leave the client of the library to call it when he finds it convenient. 15:38:57 Remembered. I'll tell jimmy__ when he/she/it next speaks. 15:39:07 -!- idkblaze is now known as pskosinski 15:39:12 My understanding is that it was first available in 1955, but that it wasn't finished until 1960? 15:39:26 loke: AIM-8. 15:39:36 aim-8? 15:39:57 One could argue that LISP was Steve Russel's project :-) 15:40:03 Fair enough 15:40:09 But when did it come out? 15:40:11 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 15:40:23 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:39 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/lisp.html 15:40:57 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node3.html#SECTION00030000000000000000 15:41:29 Implementation began before AIM-8 actually. Even long before if you take into account FLPL: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/ 15:42:05 Yeah... 15:42:22 But the question still remains... What year should it put in my timeline? 15:42:28 The "first" lisp 15:42:38 Sghould I go for 1959? 15:43:25 loke: Put in any one of those dates, finish the presentation, and if you have time, track down the most correct date. IRDM 15:43:37 Yeah, well... :-) 15:44:04 "in the XX century" 15:44:53 OK, my Lisp history slide is such a mess that I'll probably drop it altogether 15:45:19 Well, "The 'LISP I Programmer's Manual,' March 1, 1960, was written by Phyllis A. Fox." You could say that's the release date. http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp15_family/#LISP_I_and_LISP_1.5_for_IBM_704,_709,_7090_ 15:45:55 I'm trying to explain, in 30 minutes, what makes Lisp macros unique compared to other languages, to a group of people who have never seen Lisp before. It's hard. :-) 15:46:04 If your'e interested in looking at my current progress: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1mIHAruC3nbI-CZPVjX7AuRp-bj9xjJima0l6XrHUI6Y/edit 15:46:25 We dpm 15:46:26 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:38 We don't have a listing for LISP 1, only for LISP 1.5 two years later. 15:46:53 Macros in Lisp were invented in 1964 IIRC. 15:46:56 Lisp 1.5 was in 1962? 15:47:00 Yes. 15:47:27 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-154.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:47:28 loke: Hah! Your representation of Fortran is kind of generous. Fortran in the 50's didn't have hardly any of those features. It was even worse. 15:48:07 What makes lisp different is that lisp source code is a sophisticated data structure, not just a vector of characters. So you can easily manipulate structured code (blocks, expressions, etc) in lisp. 15:48:12 ThomasH: really? 15:48:22 And macros are just that: functions to manipulate sexps and produce a form. 15:48:29 pjb: Yes, that's what I'm tryin g to get to in the presentation 15:48:36 loke: Truely, you should post a scan of a punch card. 15:48:37 loke: IF was invented in lisp! 15:48:39 At slide 11 15:48:53 stassats: Yes, I will mention that :-) 15:49:00 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:33 So it's McCarthy 1959's paper = AIM-8. 15:49:42 Hmm 15:50:00 You sure? I found references to 1960 15:50:14 Check AIM-8. 15:50:18 Allr gith 15:50:25 loke: or not, don't mention it, i can't find any sources 15:50:28 All right. I changed it already. I trust you :-) 15:50:29 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 Hello world would actually use prinC not prinT. 15:50:43 (defun hw () (princ "Hello World") (terpri)) 15:50:58 pjb: Yeah, I guess. But it's more clear if I use print. I don't want to confuse people too much 15:51:17 (defun hw () (format t "Hello World~%")) 15:51:18 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-198-46.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:31 dlowe: that's what I do in slide 7 15:51:41 Don't say everything's a function. Just say operators are put in first position (polish notation). 15:51:56 (write-line "Hello World") 15:52:33 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-053-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:45 Page 11 is good. 15:53:34 Perhaps you introduce reader macros too soon. It's a "techincal detail" that could come later. 15:53:36 conditional expressions in fortran were rather like this: IF (5-10) negative-label,zero-label,positive-label 15:53:59 pjb: Well, the goal is not to explain how to do those things, merely to explain what can be done. 15:54:13 stassats: Oh god :-) 15:54:20 stassats: That's... Not nice :-) 15:54:30 well, close to assembly! 15:54:34 Well, there are modern versions of Fortran too. 15:54:44 loke: Just show a punch card, chuckle, and next slide. 15:54:46 :-) 15:55:13 pjb: My biggest problem is, however, what to put in slide 17. I need some way of typing the bag together with a clear example how the full Lisp is available during read/compile/eval phases... 15:55:37 loke: yes, the choice of a good example for a macro is the hard part. 15:56:17 loke: otherwise, I would start from the processing of a sexp (you started with (car '(defun )), I'd grow from that), until you wrap the last expression into a defmacro. 15:56:18 pjb: It's been gnawing at my mind for a while now, and the presentation is on saturday :-) 15:56:47 yeah 15:57:21 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node2.html here's a bit about conditional expressions being invented by McCarthy 15:57:34 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:57:41 Yeah. I have to include a link to that site in my notes 15:58:07 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:12 loke: perhaps something between a while loop and http://paste.lisp.org/display/123011 ? 15:58:16 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:58:18 Or church, we'll never know. 15:59:02 loke: Who is your audience? 15:59:05 pjb: You've done cobol for effect? 15:59:13 Yes :-) 15:59:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:15 ThomasH: http://geekcamp.sg/ 15:59:27 There's no do {  } while () loop in lisp: (repeat  until ) 15:59:36 It's simple enough and a good example. 16:00:04 pjb: How was it? And have you recovered? 16:00:09 loke: Cool, good luck. 16:00:17 re. cobol, the point being that the lisp programmer can design his own DSLs, while the cobol programmer is using a DSL designed by somebody else. 16:00:25 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 16:00:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:00:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:00:26 Theorically, cobol should be used by managers. 16:00:31 ThomasH: thanks. It's be one of the larger crowds I've spoken in front of 16:00:34 (about 250 people) 16:00:51 In practice, managers are lazy and just hire programmers, so it should be forbidden to force programers to use languages other than lisp. 16:01:39 Hey, I'm a manager :-) 16:01:41 Well 16:01:43 Almost 16:01:52 I have two people with me in my team :-) 16:01:59 Also: Macintosh are suposed to be user friendly and intuitive to use. But if you install a Mac server, users won't manage it and you'll have to deal with the GUI, even remotely. Just say no and keep the linux servers! 16:02:27 that's some tangent 16:02:39 pjb: I don't think many people bother with Mac servers. 16:03:16 pjb: Also, please don't remind me of my recent pain in getting the macs in my household to properly speak Secure NFS to my Linux server 16:03:50 Turns out, kerberos authentication for NFS was completely broken in one version, and only slightly broken in the next 16:04:19 off-topic alert 16:04:23 indeed 16:04:41 Anyway, thanks a lot for your input. I have some tweaking to do now :-) 16:04:49 (well, after I wake up. time to sleep soon) 16:05:44 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 16:07:36 pjb: By the way, regarding your COBOL EVALUATE thing... In your function SE, you are doing (apply format...) and passing the argument to FORMAT. Isn't there a format specifier that allows you to specify a format string as an argument, thus avoiding the call to APPLY? 16:08:04 ~? 16:08:46 iocor_ [~textual@164.11.141.5] has joined #lisp 16:08:58 also, how is COBOL's EVALUATE different from Lisp's COND? 16:09:13 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:09:27 NONAME [90a0621f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.98.31] has joined #lisp 16:10:24 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:34 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:10:38 loke: well, it's more like a case, but which allows to check several values. 16:11:00 pjb: Yeah, I can see there's a THRU specifier. That can be useful I guess 16:11:12 And in cobol there are also evaluate age when 0 thru 18 display 'child'. to test ranges. 16:11:23 (I didn't implement it in that macro). 16:13:08 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 -!- iocor_ [~textual@164.11.141.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:15:19 pjb: Since you know COBOL, do you know if there is a way to specify a limit to the content of a field? Something like PIC(3) {legal_values="foo" or "bar"} 16:16:37 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:16:49 Hello Lispers, pardon for off-topic, but could you reccomend good staring point for somebody who wants to learn how Emacs is built, how it actually works, given I already have the source code? any good articles out there that you recall? 16:16:56 I already asked in #Emacs the asnwers I got were not entirely intellectual 16:17:11 s/the/and the/ 16:17:42 NONAME: when did you ask in #emacs? I don't see you there 16:17:53 couple of moments ago 16:17:56 Oh wait... 16:18:05 yeah, I'm blind (and looking in the wrong channel) 16:18:13 NONAME: why do you want to know that? 16:18:17 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:19 At least it feels like I'm blind 16:20:13 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:20:53 loke: No, not really. You can define conditions wich are set of values, and when read is a boolean indicating whether your data element has one of those values. 16:21:12 stassats: there are many reasons.. but basically: to learn 16:21:15 pjb: I see 16:21:24 NONAME: Start with the README file you received with the source code. It directs you to the INSTALL file, that describes the build process. Drill down from there. 16:21:27 NONAME: what made you think that Emacs is the best way to learn? 16:21:29 NONAME: The Craft of Text Editing = http://www.finseth.com/craft/ 16:21:53 it's a pile of hacks accumulated over 30 years 16:22:02 stassats: but it gets the job done 16:22:03 NONAME: otherwise, you may just read the source of an emacs. There are a lot of emacsen. You could try Hemlock, since it's written in Common Lisp. 16:22:19 NONAME: learning and getting the job done is not the same thing 16:23:04 stassats: oh no, I hardly get any programming jobs done, emacs does, for many people. and I just want to find out how it does it. 16:23:43 pjb: ty, hemlock is distributed with ccl, isn't it? 16:24:05 NONAME: Studying the source code of emacs is not going to give any insight as to why people are productive using it. 16:24:41 emacs gets the job done by being written by an army of programmers over a course of several decades 16:24:44 _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:22 Army? I thought it was a legion. 16:25:37 ThomasH: No 16:25:47 ThomasH: I believe the word you're looking for is "horde" 16:25:47 and it has enough warts as it is 16:26:17 a murder of programmers 16:26:34 That said, I'm a huge fan of Emacs. I just wish there was something around that didn't have its problems. 16:26:51 Problem is, there isn't. IMHO 16:27:14 vim doesn't have emacs problems, it has its own problems 16:27:17 thank you and sorry for intrusion. have a nice day lispers. 16:29:15 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128237151.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:39 -!- NONAME [90a0621f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.98.31] has left #lisp 16:29:39 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:24 I believe that the collective noun for a group of programmers is a 'cacophony' 16:30:36 a set of programmers? 16:30:45 possibly a 'confusion' 16:31:00 or maybe "a linked-list of programmers"? 16:31:09 it varies by discipline 16:31:11 Fade: I like a 'confusion' 16:31:16 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:31:19 a hash of programmers? 16:31:26 for example, the correct term is "an exception of lisp programmers" 16:31:40 okay, Xach is on to something. 16:31:55 disjoint set 16:32:03 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:32:05 an anticipation of haskell programmers 16:34:25 -!- NimeshNeema_ [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhnaqxjwgyeylsxn] has quit [] 16:34:31 a promise of haskell programmers 16:34:55 a $_ of perl programmers 16:36:00 a frat of javascript brogrammers 16:36:11 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tsqxguoftmyljxor] has joined #lisp 16:36:42 Relevant: http://favstar.fm/users/sellout/status/205447738643587072 16:37:14 an off-topic of #lisp-users 16:37:57 stassats: have you upgraded to 10.8 ? 16:38:10 10.8 of what? 16:38:21 oops 16:38:29 sellout42: that was for you :) 16:38:32 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:38:37 fe[nl]ix: I have. 16:38:40 if you mean downgraded from linux to os x, then no 16:40:16 sellout42: if you have a few minutes, please try to compile libfixposix 16:44:21 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:44:39 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:45:57 setheus 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#lisp 18:56:09 -!- em_ [~em@user-0ccem0s.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:58:24 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 19:01:19 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-68-2.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:01:24 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:07:52 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 19:08:41 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:16 bitonic [~user@host86-154-96-82.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 em_ [~em@user-0ccem0s.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 <_travis_> any osx users have advice for an emacs setup for SBCL? mine's sitting on my porch so when I get home it'll be time to set it up. 19:13:48 Don't use aquamacs. 19:13:51 <_travis_> i've just been running on linux virtual machines up until now. so i'm not exactly familair with the different osx setups 19:14:24 <_travis_> Oh don't use aquamacs. hah that was one suggest I had :o 19:14:45 I build emacs from source on OS X, because I like emacs to act the same on all platforms rather than act like the platform. 19:14:52 disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has joined #lisp 19:15:17 -!- snearch [~snearch@pD4B887CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:15:22 <_travis_> I can certainly understand that. 19:16:47 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.105.217] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:21 http://www.emacsformacosx.com/ 19:21:27 ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:38 Then get quicklisp and use quicklisp to install slime. See http://www.quicklisp.org/ 19:21:51 <_travis_> QuickLisp is a library manager, correct? 19:22:12 Yes. 19:22:43 <_travis_> Thank you guys for your input. I think I'm going to go with a pure emacs setup. 19:23:01 <_travis_> emacsforosx.com - perfect site for that. Thank you pjb. 19:26:42 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:27:09 syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:25 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:52 syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:29 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 19:29:52 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:30:14 hi, does C-u C-c C-c compile with maximum possible debug information? 19:30:40 I am asking because I tried stepper and while it works, it is not great. I am talking about SBCL 19:30:53 puchacz: C-u C-c C-c in slime does that, yes 19:30:55 NEXT skips few forms etc. 19:31:08 stepping doesn't work great either way 19:31:09 puchacz: my impression is that the stepper in sbcl has not been worked on very much 19:31:14 just disregard it 19:31:58 ok, so just (break "Hello ~a" my-value), inspect frames, copy from frames to REPL etc.? 19:32:19 puchacz: or TRACE magic. 19:32:23 or just regular print statements 19:32:30 yeah 19:32:37 I think the root cause of this is that stepping isn't a very good way to debug sbcl 19:33:01 and stepping requires some deep compiler magic 19:33:09 if it worked well, it would be very useful 19:33:14 dlowe: not if it's only enabled at high debug levels. 19:33:33 You may try com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.cl-stepper 19:33:45 thx 19:33:59 Mostly, I blame the fact the devs don't seem to use the stepper. 19:34:09 It's all new, no guarantee yet. 19:34:21 pjb, is it right url? 19:34:23 Firefox can't find the server at com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.cl-stepper. 19:34:28 is the message 19:34:28 well, i don't need a stepper to bug code, so i have no motivation to implement/improve/use it 19:34:33 s/bug/debug/ 19:34:41 p_l [~pl@web1.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:41 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper) 19:34:54 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:13 Or fetch it from http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago since it's still being actively debugged :-) 19:35:16 syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:30 thx, I will try 19:36:55 do you use the stepper to debug it? 19:37:42 pjb, no luck for quicklisp 19:37:44 System "com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper" not found 19:38:57 Then git clone it in mkdir ~/quicklisp/local-projects/com ; cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects/com ; git clone https://git.gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago.git 19:39:04 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 ok 19:39:23 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-52-164.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:39:29 I will have a look 19:40:51 Xach: no, I don't use the stepper to debug it :-) 19:40:59 But fortunately, it is not that complex. 19:42:00 But I need to add features. For example, there are functions you don't want to trace because they're used by the tracing process, such as your print-object methods. So I add a declaration to prevent tracing, etc. 19:42:48 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 19:47:57 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.221] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:11 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.221] has joined #lisp 19:49:37 Guthur` [~user@212.183.128.221] has joined #lisp 19:49:39 ehu` [~ehuels@31.137.220.19] has joined #lisp 19:51:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:30 -!- hugod [~user@69.157.169.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:03 hugod [~user@70.24.181.15] has joined #lisp 19:59:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:59:46 pkhuong: the stepper didn't seem to work for me in combination with slime 20:01:06 It works in the REPL, but if you use the d command, it breaks in the debugger with restarts to step. 20:04:49 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:08:16 -!- sweet_kid is now known as sweet|kid 20:10:56 ISF 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timeout: 256 seconds] 21:57:35 -!- ngz [~user@27.100.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:25 is it possible to specify multiple licenses with ASDF? How does one deal with cases which e.g. needed data is under a different license than the code? 22:03:13 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:19 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:06:24 jasom: you could just name them in a single string... i also think it's legal to supply a list (not certain) 22:06:33 -!- steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-milngahrvttbgdrf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:44 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ytvkwxljarhkwsqb] has joined #lisp 22:08:03 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:10:15 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:44 joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.222.114] has joined #lisp 22:10:46 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:29 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:19 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-018-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:02 The meaning of a list of license would be most ambiguous. Is it OR, is it AND, does it concern different parts or the whole? 22:14:24 I'd define two different systems each with its own license, and another system to load them. 22:14:52 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:03 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:15:45 You could just leave it out, and defer to the LICENSE file. 22:17:00 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:10 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:19:18 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:51 -!- fourier1 [~fourier@c80-217-244-174.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:20:30 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:43 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:21:14 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 22:24:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:27 -!- Rajesh_ [~Rajesh@117.203.19.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving to Quit] 22:31:42 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:33:20 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:33:50 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:35:12 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:25 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.134.16] has joined #lisp 22:35:50 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:35:58 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:01 -!- andrewsw [~andrew@swclan.homelinux.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:07 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:40:29 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 pjb: i have yet to come across software which requires both licenses, but i guess it exists too. 22:41:34 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ytvkwxljarhkwsqb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:35 steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-vfipiyvfbaexrmpc] has joined #lisp 22:42:19 either case, i think it's against the wanted effect. if you offer two licenses you want to make it easier, not harder. by redirecting to another license file, you make it more complex. 22:42:54 this as all based on the presumption that jasom wants to make things nicer for the user though. 22:44:17 -!- steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-vfipiyvfbaexrmpc] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:13 andrewsw [~andrew@swclan.homelinux.org] has joined #lisp 22:50:42 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.222.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:53:22 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:54:04 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:20 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.219.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:54:44 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:55 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:56:45 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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