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timeout: 248 seconds] 02:39:55 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:40:42 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:46:21 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:53:01 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-105-51.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:35 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:00:31 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:00:31 Jasko [~tjasko@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:42 -!- benny [~user@i577A16E5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:05:57 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:11:32 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:34 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:35 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:11:35 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 03:13:24 gko [~user@220.228.255.204] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B0B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.166.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:02 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B0C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:16:47 Why doesn't this work: (nconc #1=#.(map 'list 'char-code "abc") #1#) 03:17:06 I would like if it was equivalent to '#1=(97 98 99 . #1#) 03:24:06 zort-: you need quotes, and nconcing literal data is a bad idea. 03:31:32 <_travis_> o.O 03:38:15 Kron [~Kron@59.92.154.135] has joined #lisp 03:39:11 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:40 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.194.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:41:37 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:02 -!- arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Remote 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#lisp 04:24:19 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.134.196] has joined #lisp 04:24:41 disciple [~krishna@117.221.131.100] has joined #lisp 04:24:56 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 04:26:46 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:27:35 fronglong [~kanedank@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:01 hey, what lisp implementation generates the smallest lisp images? has there been any effort for sbcl to generate smaller images? 04:28:22 sure, a while back they added a compressor. 04:32:30 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:33:58 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:34:07 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:35:07 -!- Kron [~Kron@59.92.154.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:27 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:20 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 05:03:56 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:46 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.154.135] has joined #lisp 05:05:46 fronglong: if you're looking for dynamically loaded modules and a smaller binary (but that depends on shared libraries), you might like ECL 05:12:15 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.34.226] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:15:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:16:27 benny [~user@i577A1BDF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:21:45 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-qbveuzazbocweolw] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-qbveuzazbocweolw] has quit [Changing host] 05:21:46 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:29:05 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:55 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:31:43 If I want to learn Lisp, what dialect should I choose ? Scheme or others ? or Just Lisp ? 05:32:23 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-218-236.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:34:33 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-45-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:33 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:54 nagato: common lisp, since you came here to ask. It is destiny. 05:36:18 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 05:38:22 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:38:37 sykopomp: destiny ? cool, Emm, should I read some thing like the difference between common Lisp and Scheme ? 05:38:50 You need not bother with such things. 05:38:54 simply embrace Common Lisp. 05:39:01 Scheme is for pretenders and academics. 05:39:13 and by academics, I mean undergrads. 05:39:23 harsh 05:39:23 sykopomp: The only last problem is, I found Guile is interesting, but I found Guile use Scheme .... 05:39:38 Guile *is* Scheme. 05:40:39 sykopomp: yeah.... I just a newbie,(of course you know this). So, If I want to use Guile, and want to learn Lisp (A power crazy language), what should I do ? 05:41:25 nagato: are you already comfortable with programming, in general? 05:41:31 like, have you written nontrivial code? 05:42:17 sykopomp: never, I just learned a little Python, HTML, and Vimscript ... 05:42:25 gotcha 05:42:33 minion: please tell nagato about gentle 05:42:33 nagato: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 05:42:50 nagato: that's a great place to start. Once you're done with that book, you can jump onto... 05:42:57 minion: please tell nagato about pcl 05:42:57 nagato: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:43:26 so, that's the first two steps onto Lisp ? 05:44:05 Cool, sykopomp thanks for you help. 05:44:06 usually you start with one foot, and then you use the other one. Otherwise you might fall, or stretch your legs in an uncomfortable way. 05:44:28 in my experience, at least, but I am certainly no expert in walking. 05:45:10 I see, but better than me, go to learn now, I'm existing .... 05:45:10 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.221.131.100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:04 good luck. Feel free to ask any questions if something is unclear and you've already tried to grok the problem. :) 05:46:33 this channel was immensely helpful to me, although it does have high expectations of effort ;) 05:47:31 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:47:57 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:19 nagato: it's also possible to embed common lisp with other applications, and some implementations are designed with that feature (i.e. Embeddable Common Lisp) (I say this, because if you looked at Guile it might have been to embed scripts in an application) 05:49:22 sykopomp: I will 05:50:14 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:50:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:50:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:50:26 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 05:50:26 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 05:50:26 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:50:27 disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has joined #lisp 05:50:55 phadthai: yes, Guile website said it is a extensible language, a platform for application to extend.. 05:51:22 if eventually you want to both know more about scheme and computer science in general, then there also is the book "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" along with the now free lecture videos from Abelson and Sussman 05:52:03 basically it's a CS course using scheme for examples 05:53:22 I agree with sykopomp about recommending A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, it starts with the very basics 05:55:25 Will SICP too difficult for me ? (I'm not good on Math, Computer or programming) 05:56:00 I think it begins with basics as well, so you could probably follow 05:56:46 phadthai: ok, Now I got three books to read. I think this is enough. start cool thing. 05:56:53 the last few chapters might be more difficult without revising the earlier ones perhaps, but it's very gradual 06:00:56 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:03:06 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-224-20-1.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:26:48 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 06:27:41 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:30:03 Is there a mailing list for discuss Lisp ? just for general ask question, then reply thread, I use email a lot. 06:31:15 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 06:31:37 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 06:37:20 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.121] has joined #lisp 06:37:38 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.34.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:38:57 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46:39 EvilMachine [~evi1m4chi@dslb-094-220-243-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:43 hello :) say, i know nothing about lisp, and somebody mentioned, that you could use s-expressions, to completely avoid length fields *and* escaping when processing input data. i dont get how 06:48:14 i would be grateful for at least a hint. :) 06:48:21 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:48:55 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 06:49:17 the idea is, that i want to be able to create e.g. a parser for CSV, that can handle fields containing the delimiter character, but *without* escaping (and without length fields) 06:49:38 (asuming that person didnt talk nonsense, of course. :) 06:50:30 (i forget to mention: a parser in any language, not specifically lisp) 06:54:32 -!- paul0 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[~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:37:36 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 09:38:08 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 09:38:27 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:39:45 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-015-020.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:45 FreeArtMan [~fam@62.85.99.68] has joined #lisp 09:46:48 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has joined #lisp 09:47:41 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.140.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.2] 10:02:47 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B0B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:21 marcux [~marco@177.32.182.96] has joined #lisp 10:06:52 -!- marcux [~marco@177.32.182.96] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:15 unicode [~user@159.Red-88-15-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:31 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:19 wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-75-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:47 -!- gko [~user@220.228.255.204] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:26:06 -!- wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-132-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:31:08 I'm trying to work through the lparallel example, and I'm very confused with this part (http://lparallel.org/kernel/): https://gist.github.com/3284377 10:31:37 specifically, what's the significance of (funcall worker-loop)? 10:32:18 M-. is failing me... 10:32:43 fronglong: you are looking at advanced functionality. don't do it if you don't know what funcall does. 10:33:50 well, I know what funcall does, I just don't get what worker-loop is. Is that for explicitly halting execution and returning? 10:34:23 fronglong: no, it is for establishing bindings. 10:35:09 fronglong: if your workers need a certain dynamic environment, you can use that mechanism to establish it. 10:37:29 ah. is that because dynamic binding is required for making parallel/threading stuff easier? this is a rare example of not using lexical binding, right? 10:37:42 sorry, I think I might be confusing dynamic environment with dynamic binding, I'm not sure those are synonymous 10:37:48 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:38:02 fronglong: the "dynamic environment" is the sum of the dynamic bindings in effect. 10:38:22 fronglong: dynamic binding is not exactly rare, but lexical binding is certainly more common. 10:38:24 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 10:38:35 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 10:40:07 fronglong: for example, the standard streams (*standard-output*, *error-output* etc.) as well as the pretty printer defaults are dynamically bound variables. 10:41:01 is that true of all things relating to the cl image configuration? 10:41:40 i don't know what you mean by "cl image configuration", please elaborate 10:42:23 uh, I guess I mean settings, those streams/printing things seem to simply be global settings 10:43:01 eh, that last part doesn't make any sense, forget that 10:43:02 they are not "settings", they are dynamically bound and can be overriden by establishing a new dynamic binding. 10:46:26 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:46:41 is there an easy way to reset slime? or should I just kill it/start a new one? 10:47:12 fronglong: there is no reset that resets everything. restarting is safer 10:49:07 H4ns: thanks 10:49:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:53:07 -!- unicode [~user@159.Red-88-15-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:00:29 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:34 punee_ [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-95-248.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:52 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-95-248.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:00:52 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 fronglong: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp is an easy way to do it 11:02:13 -!- nagato [~stardivin@122.236.249.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:02:48 nagato [~stardivin@60.183.242.82] has joined #lisp 11:02:57 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:51 -!- punee_ [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:10 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:04:22 fronglong: clisp has the smallest footprint. 11:05:13 nagato: there are no "differences" between CL and Scheme and emacs lisp; Have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) 11:05:56 nagato: there's no mail list for general CL or lisp discussion AFAIK, but there's a usenet group: news:comp.lang.lisp 11:06:08 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-35-61.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:09:06 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 11:11:03 unicode [~user@46.253.33.179] has joined #lisp 11:13:39 Rajesh [~Rajesh@117.203.1.175] has joined #lisp 11:14:03 -!- Rajesh is now known as Guest78947 11:15:30 -!- unicode [~user@46.253.33.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:16:30 unicode [~user@46.253.33.179] has joined #lisp 11:17:03 pjb: just a check, does ecl have a bigger footprint than clisp? 11:19:05 agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:20:01 Yes. The footprint of ecl is equivalent to the foot print of C. So a program using libecl will be twice the size of a C program (since it will also need libc). 11:20:35 That said, since ecl can generate executables that use shared libraries libc and libecl, you can have executables as small as with C. 11:20:59 But what was asked was about the "smallest lisp images". 11:22:35 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:23:34 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:24:08 pjb: isn't measuring executable size for code that uses shared libraries without accounting for them kind of cheating? 11:25:11 I can write my app as a shared library, and have my app proper just call some main function or whatever 11:25:29 smallest footprint imaginable :) 11:26:30 are there any good examples of code using lparallel? 11:26:32 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:20 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:31 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@62.85.99.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:57 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:28:08 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:28:26 -!- xristos is now known as Guest71423 11:33:34 -!- unicode [~user@46.253.33.179] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:34:16 pavelpenev: I don't care, what was asked was the smallest lisp images. 11:34:56 pavelpenev: otherwise I don't think that it's cheating. To be able to run your helloworld, you need megabytes of libc and linux kernel and drivers. 11:35:43 and perhaps a few more megabytes of X11 and toolkit libraries. 11:36:30 So I'm still not awake, but you catch my drift. 11:37:00 There's a good reason to do irc/news/mail before programming 11:37:05 ice_ [~ice@123.123.252.160] has joined #lisp 11:37:22 I was talking about measuring footprint. And my coffee is brewing at the moment too :) 11:37:32 Yes. I agree with you. 11:37:44 ldd is useful to set the record straight. 11:37:50 -!- Guest78947 [~Rajesh@117.203.1.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving to Quit] 11:39:40 -!- nagato [~stardivin@60.183.242.82] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 11:49:51 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:51:46 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 11:53:16 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:56:07 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-45-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:00:14 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has joined #lisp 12:03:08 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-178.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:31 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:41 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:00 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:07:13 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:08:44 Now that ram is about 0.49c per megabyte ... 12:10:18 Back in 2000, when ram was $1 a meg, I can understand worrying about it. 12:10:37 Now I think it's mostly just a false sense of economy. 12:10:55 we should just ban discussing image size as being off-topic 12:11:08 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:12:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:13:16 Well, last time I loaded all quicklisp systems and saved images, ccl generated a 348M image, while clisp generated a 237MB image. The first won't fit in a Raspberry Pi RAM, the later yes. 12:13:31 So, yes, RAMs are bigger, but so are our software.r 12:13:34 \o/ 12:13:50 Yesterday, I tallied .asd and .lisp in ~/quicklisp and I have 360 MB of lisp SOURCES! 12:14:16 nice 12:14:37 I should make new images, the last time I did that was one year and a half ago. 12:14:39 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:15:00 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 12:15:03 Hey guys 12:15:20 I was reading a forum earlier and a question was raised. 12:15:21 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 12:15:40 Things like that happen in forums. 12:15:44 The question was simply: How do you have one function defiend earlier than another, say, func1 and func2 and allow func1 to call func2 and func2 to call func1? 12:16:10 In statically linked languages by using a two-pass assembler or compiler. 12:16:11 Vivitron [~Vivitron@12.53.196.74] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 elderK: indirection 12:16:18 Hey Xach 12:16:18 In dynamically linked languages using an indirection. 12:16:21 Aye, that's what I figured too. 12:16:21 elderK: you don't call them before both of them are defined 12:16:54 And if you do, you drop into the debugger which gives you the opportunity to define the missing function before trying to call it again. 12:17:07 It's called debugger based development. 12:17:07 you don't necessarily have to use indirection, you can update addresses after everything is defined 12:17:20 stassats`: Aye, I figure you could compile the definitions and later, when either function is called, it'd be fine, since they were both defined. 12:17:38 stassats`: well, the use of the symbol table required to do that amount to an indirection. But indeed, not at run-time. 12:17:39 By indirection do you guys mean by passing the function to the other? 12:18:00 elderK: the most simple, is to go thru the symbol-function slot of symbols. 12:18:13 (f x) == (funcall (symbol-function 'f) x) 12:18:27 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:18:29 (apart from when f is a local function, of course). 12:18:42 If it was local, you could just use mutual recursion. 12:18:42 elderK: indirection meaning "look there to see where X is resided" instead of "access X directly" 12:18:47 In scheme that'd be letrec 12:18:48 indeed. 12:18:53 er, let* 12:18:59 no... letrec. 12:19:01 :) 12:19:20 Thanks guys. I was curious as I didn't know the answer myself. 12:19:45 Another question! 12:19:52 theron [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:01 compile-file is allowed to inline addresses of function calls occurring in the same file 12:20:02 I read that there's no distinction between public and private methods in CLOS? 12:20:21 elderK: "public" and "private" have no meaning in clos. 12:20:29 so, callect all function definitions, assign addresses to them and then use them when compiling everything 12:20:56 elderK: one reason for that is that generic functions are not attached to classes, so there is no class that could consider a generic function being private to itself. 12:21:02 stassats`: Compiler assigns addresses, yeah? Kind of like a two-pass type dealie? 12:21:25 elderK: but we have conventions. A symbol with % at the beginning would be a private internal symbol. A symbol that is not exported from its package would be a symbol you should not use. 12:21:38 elderK: yep. 12:21:40 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:49 elderK: well, compiler compiles somehow, which includes allocating all the code somewhere 12:22:08 elderk: You do understand that methods in CLOS are methods of generic-functions? 12:22:15 I'm not yet versed in CLOS but do you mean that functions defined for the class that were designed to be "private", called by the class itself or something, would have their names prefixed with %? 12:22:17 elderK: Yes, no public vs. private in CLOS. That distinction is handled by packages. You export from a package the symbols you want others to access. 12:22:18 elderK: but then the notion of "address" may be mu, depending on the virtual machine you compile to. 12:22:18 elderk: What would having a private method mean? 12:22:26 of course preassigning addresses limits the size of functions and may lead to fragmentation of memory 12:22:27 Afraid not, Zhivago. 12:22:37 elderK: eg. instead the compiler could target a lisp system, and use symbols instead of addresses. 12:22:37 I've not yet tinkered with CLOS, I just read that online somewhere and was curious. 12:22:38 :) 12:22:42 methods belong to generic functions, not to classes 12:22:47 Consider this questioning, brain-food before bed. Something to ponder and dream on. 12:23:23 elderK: You're used to obj.method(x), but CLOS is fun.method(x). 12:23:37 and instead of indexed vector for the code, it could use linked lists of symbols. 12:23:57 well, fun.method(obj,x). 12:24:03 ekderK: So, public/private-ness is usually an issue of if the function's name is exported from the package or not. 12:24:11 Sweet. 12:24:20 I was wondering if the package system had something to do with it. 12:24:22 Thanks guys. 12:24:32 yes, exported/not exported symbols. 12:24:32 % in a name means 'magic'. 12:24:50 heh 12:25:00 We're all %! 12:25:00 :P 12:25:24 Be careful when dealing with magic. 12:25:25 not really. You're encapsulated, I would hope so, with definite inputs and outputs. 12:25:39 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 12:25:39 *elderK* clinks mug along the bars 12:26:01 :) Any who guys, laptop battery is almost dead. Thanks again :) 12:26:24 Take care! 12:26:25 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 12:31:09 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-145-236.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:34:12 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:45 jin_xi [~workflow@178-83-8-30.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:36:53 ahh it's a wonderful day 12:38:19 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 12:40:25 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.163] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 12:46:31 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:47:06 can someone with ccl and latest quicklisp tell me if this works for them 12:47:37 (require :trivial-backtrace) (trivial-backtrace:map-backtrace 'print) 12:48:16 Too many arguments in call to #: 2 arguments provided, at most 1 accepted. [Condition of type CCL::TOO-MANY-ARGUMENTS] 12:53:31 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:59:57 meh there goes my "strip away log4cl" frames from map-backtrace idea 13:00:20 guess will have to do (with-output-to-string), then search the string for log4cl:log-to-logger-appenders 13:01:00 if you add an &rest ignored to the lambda in impl-map-backtrace it'll run something 13:01:12 to continue the github issue discussion about backtraces, 13:01:13 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:48 previously I was discussing with someone (i think H4ns), then there is a need for better generic conditions library 13:02:07 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:15 the aspect which important for backtrace logging is that lisp implementations ususly can not provide backgrace for condition 13:02:22 alexandria already has (simple-program-error) and (simple-parse-error) and such, but what would be cool, is to have the condition chaining, like in Java 13:02:22 it just provide current backtrace 13:02:52 ah see we are thinking among the same lines 13:02:53 yes, I agree, condition chaining is good feature 13:04:11 I was thinking of a global handler-bind, that wraps any error that is not already "extended-error", attaches the backtrace object at the error site to it, then re-throws 13:04:35 disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has joined #lisp 13:04:52 but its not really job of a logging library to provide that, and I've already got too many projects 13:05:02 but nested handler-binds will interfere with handler-bind 13:06:37 yes, and as the backtrace can not be printed for condition, it might be that adding special backtrace API to log4cl is not that useful as it is in java where every exception can provide stacktrace 13:07:32 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 13:07:44 maxm: about filtering log4j calls from backtrace, what do you think about evaluating all the parameters passed to log:info in the same scope where it is called? 13:07:52 well api could be something like (with-logging (&key (backtrace t) (ignore nil) (rethrow t)) &body body) 13:09:32 antonv: well, it expands into (format ..) internally, which has anvantage of being non-consing, as it prints stuff to the stream without making copies of them 13:10:07 we can evaluate all arguments, and put them into the list, then call (apply 'format) I guess, but it will mean consing a lot on each log statement 13:13:56 so the current macr-expansion is some (lambda () (format )) passed to log4cl, right? 13:13:57 I'll play with the api ideas, and see what comes up from it.. Imho something like a single (with-logging) macro, with lots of keywords, is better then keep adding new per-scenario macros/features 13:14:45 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:25 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@12.53.196.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:15:29 antonv: yes (log:info ...) gets expanded into (flet ((user-log-stmt (stream) (format stream ...))) (when (logging-enabled-for-info) (do-logging #'user-log-stmt))) 13:15:50 reason its done like this, is under high optimization its completely non-consing 13:17:08 also it allows for neat separation of appenders and logging, since all appenders have to provide is an (appender-stream) generic 13:17:27 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-218.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:24 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 13:18:54 Interesting that it is not consing. So the user-log-stmt closure keeps enclosed values where? on stack? 13:19:15 yea,its declared dynamic-extent. Its non-consing under speed 3 on sbcl 13:19:40 btw 13:20:09 I have a theory that (when (logging-enabled-for-info)) may be performance loss 13:20:31 because in 99% of cases info logging is enabled, so the when is redundant code to execute 13:20:46 ah, disassemble it ad see, its like 4 instructions 13:21:21 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 13:21:26 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 4 > than 0 :) 13:21:53 there are tests vs log4j in test-speed.lisp, the non-logging case is around 30 times faster, because it resolves whenever each logger/level has reachable appenders, at [re]configure time, so the actual check is (logior mask ) 13:21:55 logand rather 13:22:00 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:22:32 ok, I do not insist it should be changed, just note 13:22:39 -!- nicferrier [~nicferrie@140.35.155.90.in-addr.arpa] has left #lisp 13:23:11 about (with-logging), what it does? 13:23:35 is it the handler-bind which adds backtraces to conditions or someting else? 13:27:52 antonv: yea the idea is to make a generic wrapper, with options.. It will optionally add handler-bind for specific errors, if it catches any, it will log it, optionally print backtrace, and optionally re-throw the error.. All the "optionally" bits controlled with keyword args 13:28:45 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:04 establishing a condition handler binding can be surprisingly costly 13:29:36 H4ns: well idea is you don't do it in every function, but close to top-level of your main loop 13:30:02 just saying 13:31:14 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:52 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34:24 5EXABFL7G [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:24 36DABV6UK [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:35 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:54 -!- 5EXABFL7G [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:35:06 -!- 36DABV6UK [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.163] has joined #lisp 13:43:05 vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:17 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-152.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.98] has joined #lisp 13:45:02 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 mrky [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:48:27 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.142.27] has joined #lisp 13:48:37 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:50:51 hello. im having trouble loging in to some site and getting cookies back with drakma. I posted what I think is relevant snippet of html and drakma code. 13:51:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/130903 13:51:05 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:57 the FORM ACTION='' part is different than what I usually have. this usually contains other part of the submit url. does this mean submit url is the same as the form url? 13:53:43 mrky: yes 13:57:36 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:01:29 paul0 [~paul0@201.47.44.117.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:04:23 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:50 Jasko [~tjasko@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:15 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:34 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:09:28 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has joined #lisp 14:12:57 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:14:00 ASau` [~user@95-26-148-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:16:13 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 14:17:55 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-164-66.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:18:28 hkarlen [~user@c83-254-165-239.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:20:14 -!- ice_ [~ice@123.123.252.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:01 -!- mrky [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 14:22:37 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:25:20 ice [~ice@222.130.137.92] has joined #lisp 14:26:05 Aw! (cond ((values 1 2 3))) --> 1 :-( 14:26:25 mrky [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.137.92] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:11 mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has joined #lisp 14:31:59 :( 14:32:35 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:32:38 pjb: it's pretty painful when I forget about m-v-prog1, too. 14:32:41 pjb: does (or (values 1 2 3)) also make you cry? 14:32:47 oddly enough (cond (t (values 1 2 3))) -> 1, 2, 3 14:33:09 clhs cond 14:33:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 14:33:41 well, that's pretty much as explicit as it can get... 14:34:09 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:45 loke: any word on my docbrowser issue? 14:35:27 might as well use OR, though 14:35:43 I've never seen a formless cond clause in actual use 14:36:01 *Xach* has used it once or twice 14:37:34 I've also never seen that cond use in practice. Why did you do it, Xach? 14:39:07 Xach: hello 14:39:09 an issue? 14:39:17 loke: yes, filed on code.google.com 14:39:24 hmm 14:39:28 why didn't I get an email about it 14:39:31 let me check 14:39:33 Fade: because the value of the test was a good value to return 14:39:42 Fade: don't remember the specific situation 14:39:49 *nod* 14:40:06 I expected cond to have the same semantics as or in that case. 14:40:20 Oh 14:40:22 wtf 14:42:02 fixed 14:42:35 *Xach* gets an email about it 14:42:38 I'm actually using the docbrowser packages as part of a larger probject, which happens to already depend on string-case, which is why that happened once you try to build docbrowser separately 14:42:43 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-35-61.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:42:58 *Xach* sniffs such things out 14:43:30 :-) 14:43:41 I really should break out the template stuff into its own package 14:43:49 I mean, into its own system 14:48:35 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:49:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@ip-64-134-226-163.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:49:39 Hmm 14:49:49 is there no way I can subscribe to all defects? 14:50:35 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 14:50:57 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 Greetings lispers 14:51:11 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:13 hello 14:51:44 loke: all docbrowser defects? 14:52:41 TimKack [~user@213.208.236.186] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 14:55:17 Xach: yep 14:57:03 *Xach* is a little surprised that's not the default 14:57:34 Xach: me neither 14:57:42 that's why I never saw the bug 14:58:49 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:59:06 This is so awesome: http://rendell-attic.org/gol/tm.htm 15:03:31 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:05:24 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:05:27 k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.38] has joined #lisp 15:05:45 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129136142.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:51 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:07:02 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-uvdtbivldiorhvdz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:07:05 FreeArtMan [~fam@62.85.99.68] has joined #lisp 15:07:57 Posterdati [~tapioca@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:15:20 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:18:13 JorgeArbusto [~heffaklum@79.138.212.37.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 All you need is LOVE, err, LISP! 15:19:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l|abdn 15:19:28 JorgeArbusto: I hope that was single weirdness moment 15:19:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:39 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.159] has joined #lisp 15:19:39 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 -!- hkarlen [~user@c83-254-165-239.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:05 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:26:07 -!- mrky [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 15:29:50 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@62.85.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:30:07 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:08 son in lisp a dsl will be create dmostly witht he help of defmacro or with an interpreter? 15:34:26 Yes 15:34:32 JorgeArbusto: depends what you want to make and how it will work. It might be mostly normal functions even, but usually there will be macros rather than interpreter, which would help to compile it into lisp 15:35:32 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l|abdn 15:36:26 quite often you don't even need macros 15:36:51 the sicp videos had some good examples of dsls written in just ordinary functions, but that sort of makes the term DSL meaningless, which being a buzzword, is probably true. 15:37:19 Jasko [~tjasko@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 15:37:24 pavelpenev: not exactly - there might be a lot of stuff involving implicit environment etc 15:41:22 p_l|abdn: the example I had in mind was the picture description language, which was just ordinary scheme functions arranged in layers of abstraction, IOW just normal code. You call it a language because its conceptually useful to think about it that way, not because there's anything special about its implementation. 15:44:22 I've often encountered DSLs where it is obvious that they were intended to be some simple way for the domain expert to customize the software, but ended up growing into some crappy extension language. I've come to believe that you're better off just writing a good API and making the domain expert learn to code if they want extensions. 15:48:12 LiamH [~healy@254.sub-70-192-195.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:02 Yea, I know about or and cond, but i was sad because I couldn't apply my idiom of (cond ((let ((it (something))) (when it result))) ) with (values ) for result. 15:52:20 Meta-first world problem, of course. 15:53:16 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:09 let only uses the primary value too :) 15:55:14 ThomasH: indeed. How many business men write COBOL programs? 15:55:30 Cobol is the prototypal DSL. 15:57:24 pjb: I hope that someday in the distant future when the last COBOL program is retired, they announce it in the news just because I'm curious to know when that day will come. 15:57:25 Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has joined #lisp 15:57:41 I suspect the death of "the news" will come first. 15:58:08 ThomasH: your death, likely, too 15:58:20 Actually the problem is more general. You could write expert system rules using CL:IF: (if (some-antecendent) (some-consequent)) ; why would one want to code an expert system to provide a DSL of IF rules? But it's done. And I bet a third level is even added to let the users add their own rules, interpreted by the expect system rules, interpreted by the algorithmic language below. 15:58:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:34 ThomasH: not before 3580. 15:58:37 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:12 ThomasH: no, actually it could be much earlier. If we just get rid of the money, bankers, armies, etc. cf. The Venus Project. 15:59:25 ^ lawyers 15:59:33 Heh, I just had this vision of 2 technicians discussing some software failure in the distant future, "It appears to be expressed in something called C-O-B-O-L" 16:00:04 But if you consider it a DSL, Cobol is nice! 16:00:30 If you consider C is a DSL to write unix kernel, it's nice! 16:01:07 Well, my running software joke is, "My computer just doesn't understand me." 16:01:19 "How lisp made me like Cobol" 16:01:59 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:04:10 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:04:39 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:06:21 ThomasH: software archaeology... 16:07:20 pkhuong: Indeed. 16:07:34 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:49 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:07:52 We have a shitload of pl/i and cobol at work 16:07:54 Future software archaeology. Let's leave traces. 16:08:12 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:08:33 kleppari: would you be interested in a PL/I to Lisp translator? 16:09:03 -!- LiamH [~healy@254.sub-70-192-195.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:09:51 pjb: I would, the IBM loving management probably wouldn't. :) 16:10:15 Or a CL running on your IBM system? 16:10:20 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:20 -!- vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:41 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:10:44 cl on linux on system z? 16:10:48 or cl on z/os? 16:11:11 Probably clisp and ecl can do the first. 16:11:30 kleppari: The best way to get management on board is to do the translation and demonstrate the running system. That way you can show initiative and a better approach at the same time. You just have to decide if spending your own time on it is worth it. 16:11:52 The problem is having enough of that own time 16:11:57 Indeed 16:12:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B0B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:39 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-218.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:25 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-218.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:10 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:48 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.134.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:02 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:19:04 ECL can run on z/OS 16:19:19 SBCL... might be portable there 16:19:41 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:19:49 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 16:19:59 lisp oses exist? 16:20:17 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:20 Bike [~Glossina@65-100-34-187.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:24 JorgeArbusto: did 16:20:31 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 All are now practically defunct, or related to no-longer manufactured hw 16:21:24 or are toys 16:21:54 I was thinking of posting SBCL integrated into linux kernel for next years April Fools 16:23:01 Maybe this is more about perl regex than Lisp, but here we go: I'm using cl-ppcre to take items from a block of text. I know that each item begins with "index:. So, I'm using this (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "(?s:index:.*)index:" *foo*). It works OK, but I get the next "index:" too, which I don't want. I can just do some work and get it out after matching, but is it possible to do it right on the regex, so the result string doesn't have 16:23:02 it? 16:23:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-169.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 JorgeArbusto: there's Movitz that would allow you to write a lisp OS. 16:25:01 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:25:23 rtj [~rtj@bb220-255-83-99.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:25:42 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 16:26:12 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:23 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:37 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:29:08 -!- JorgeArbusto [~heffaklum@79.138.212.37.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 16:30:50 Well, I guess I can use the registers like in (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "((?s:index:.*))index:" *foo*) 16:30:54 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 16:30:54 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:29 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:31:47 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.38] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:31:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:32:01 k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.38] has joined #lisp 16:32:49 -!- technomancy [~technoman@ec2-50-19-56-35.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 16:33:58 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:34:12 p_l|abdn, so you mean as a joke? 16:35:25 Ralith [~ralith@67.101.126.22] has joined #lisp 16:35:31 *JuanDaugherty* notes that 4/1 is a traditional time for major product announcements as well as jokes. 16:37:27 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:37:41 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:37:48 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.219] has joined #lisp 16:41:06 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:42:58 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:44:39 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:51:00 dnolen [~user@cpe-065-184-253-198.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:19 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:55:28 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:33 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 16:57:57 lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:03 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:59:14 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:59:16 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 17:03:59 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:25 JuanDaugherty: someone proposed Lisp compiler integrated into linux kernel as a joke on 4/1 17:04:58 p_l|abdn: there's already a JIT for packet filtering purposes, iirc. 17:04:59 oh OK 17:05:12 fuck them then 17:05:45 pkhuong: not much of a JIT, afaik, just a bunch of chunks with places for variables. And it's an old thing (coming from BSD stack, I think) 17:08:32 p_l|abdn: I vaguely remember plans to interface that module with LLVM running in userland, plus a simple kernel-side jail. 17:09:10 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-015-020.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:09:12 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:31 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:13:23 LiamH [~healy@254.sub-70-192-195.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:06 syamajala [~syamajala@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:10 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:51 -!- rtj [~rtj@bb220-255-83-99.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: rtj] 17:17:32 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:36 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:44 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 17:24:09 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.133.125] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@173-14-133-149-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:32 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 17:30:16 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33:17 tritchey [~tritchey@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 17:36:07 dnolen` [~user@cpe-065-184-246-192.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:12 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:53 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:37:25 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:56 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-065-184-253-198.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:39:56 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:17 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 17:41:41 rtj [~rtj@bb220-255-83-99.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:43:08 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 -!- _tca_ is now known as _tca 17:46:06 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:46:07 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:52:53 -!- dnolen` [~user@cpe-065-184-246-192.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:53:20 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:57:09 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:58:36 wbooze: what are you using list pane for? 17:59:10 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:59:31 huh ? 17:59:46 is that really me you wanted to appoint ?! 17:59:48 if you want to present 3000 items, it's better just to output presentations to an output pane 17:59:52 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:11 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 18:00:30 someone asked a question on mcclim-devel, was that you? 18:00:37 no 18:00:45 i didn't send any posts yet 18:00:59 well, that means that there are more people trying mcclim 18:01:11 poor souls... 18:01:13 pkhuong: there is "secure code" mode in kernel for some time that could be used for it 18:01:17 seccomp, iirc 18:01:19 well, i just looked at a few archived mesages.... 18:01:28 but the list ends with 2008 or so 18:01:42 stassats`: hehe 18:01:46 sellout42 [~Adium@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:47 and i don't know seems like that list is not very active as of late.... 18:02:04 it doesn't really end 18:02:26 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-057-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:46 it strangles poor souls slowly but surely 18:03:03 mickbeaver [~mickbeave@216-136-25-2.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:13 I mean, I haven't seen beach around lately, and he started working on clim3... 18:03:24 dnolen [~user@cpe-065-184-246-192.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:38 oh 18:04:09 man he should really get in the habit of getting feedback and incorporating maybe some ideas which appeal or so.... 18:04:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for he should really get in the habit of getting feedback and incorporating maybe some ideas which appeal or so..... 18:04:21 ups 18:04:21 clim's is quite complex and people are trying random things to find their way and it actually works, but it's actually wrong and doesn't work for other things 18:04:28 and the docs are quite poor 18:04:41 yeah 18:05:10 remaking some of the more interesting/useful concepts on top of a modern toolkit might be much better way 18:05:23 yes, i thought of maybe reorganizing it too, but i would have a hard time around that, and yes for seomeone already familiar with it beyond beginner stage it would be better it was made from scratch.... 18:06:14 dam document it good! 18:06:42 on my side, I'm mostly interested with presentations and command parser 18:07:07 it feels like there are 1000 methods ...for the same thing... 18:07:10 probably because I've seen autocad (and learnt it a bit) since I was a small kid, so the idea of typing in commands in GUI program doesn't surprise me 18:07:28 and Sierra adventure games :D 18:08:02 heh, and make it multilang dam! 18:08:26 dlowe: didn't play any 18:08:43 what a tragedy 18:08:53 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-057-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:08:57 wbooze: and yet each one is subtly different 18:08:57 OTOH, I have seen AutoCAD in use since R12 or R13 18:09:14 and learnt from a book for version 2.6 :) 18:09:26 yes yes i know, but knowing how it is subtly different is the thing 18:09:33 p_l|abdn: it's not a joke. There's a scheme integrated in linux: schemix. 18:09:40 and what's worse is that there's no resident clim guru which knows all the differences like the back of his hand 18:09:58 p_l|abdn: just write a CL implementation in scheme (or port Butterfly CL to a recent scheme), and you'll have CL in the kernel. 18:10:10 pjb: there was a description somewhere on how to make EmacsOS ;) 18:10:23 just make it use the no stack overflow features of scheme from the start on! 18:10:26 p_l|abdn: That was crazy. 18:10:38 hmmm, and mebbe continuations too... 18:10:56 wbooze: no, screw people abusing tail-recursion 18:11:03 p_l|abdn: http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html 18:11:06 lol 18:11:15 pjb: anyway, SBCL's runtime directly in kernel, + special image management (with lisp code directly loadable) 18:11:21 there's goto if they want tail-recursion 18:11:34 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:11:37 p_l|abdn: you'd have a better chance intragrating Movitz that SBCL I'd say. 18:11:55 pjb: depends on method 18:12:15 *didi* <3 tail-recursion :^( 18:12:18 why integrate anything? 18:12:33 stassats`: weird idea to respond to an old April Fools from LKML 18:12:35 didi: and i like high-level iteration constructs 18:12:35 To write smart kernel modules in AI in Lisp? 18:12:49 stassats`: We can still be friends. 18:14:00 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Quit: PuercoPop] 18:14:20 pjb: i just seat here and the modules keep writing themselves, is this magic? 18:15:10 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:15:16 stassats`: yes. 18:15:36 Keep praying. The universe will eventually provide you with everything you need. 18:15:50 (note the tense of the verb to need in the above sentence). 18:16:53 reactormonk [~tass@cpe-70-116-15-3.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:57 well, praying is too much, i'll just sit motionless 18:17:08 and the freetype thing is failing somehow...with the font redirection to X and back or so 18:17:21 well, actually all the direct port methods fail! 18:17:29 what's the usual pattern to read a file with strings per line into a structure I can iterate over? (let's say a wordlist and I'd like to use remove-if-not) 18:17:59 not even using open-default-display did help 18:18:16 reactormonk: do you care about the order? 18:18:45 and there's no pattern, you just do the exact steps you need 18:18:48 it's not java 18:19:45 and disregard the order question, i somehow read it as remove-duplicates instead of remove-if-not 18:19:48 heh sbcl-1.0.58 is dumping to ldb and not even accepting keystrokes 18:20:11 so, you just don't collect the strings which don't match when you do the reading, no need to put everything into structure and remove-if-not on it 18:20:32 (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line unless (funcall function line) collect line) 18:22:17 I've been thinking about building a primitive gui language on top of CLX, thats why i got interested in CLIM,for inspiration, but for now I'm focusing on getting better at CL and especially CLOS, and later get a better understanding of CLX and X in general. But the back of my mind is going: Soon! 18:22:37 nobody needs primitive 18:22:56 pavelpenev: careful of yakshaving 18:23:01 everyone needs CLIM though 18:23:06 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:14 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-065-184-246-192.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:23:20 Quadrescence: opt me out 18:23:21 yep 18:23:31 stassats`, you are a terrible person 18:23:39 stassats`: the idea is to have a higher level language build on top of it later 18:24:16 why not build the higher level part in the first place? 18:24:19 pavelpenev: Looks like git to me. 18:24:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:24:39 And we all know what we are using. 18:24:47 But i still have barely enough knowledge of computer graphics and GUIs to do it. In a few months some other stupid dream might take its place :) 18:24:47 just build them using layers of abstractions 18:25:02 reactormonk: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:string-list-text-file-contents "file") 18:25:19 . o O (I wonder what bugs McCLIM is still suffering from.) 18:25:20 + put your code under AGPL3. 18:25:25 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:25:34 Quadrescence: from all it had 5 years ago 18:25:37 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 18:25:56 pavelpenev: well, you won't get your knowledge without doing something 18:26:07 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 18:26:24 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:50 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:15 -!- vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: vaus] 18:27:57 Well, first step is mastering the fundamentals, so I'm just diving deeper into CLOS for now. 18:28:14 you'll master it on the go 18:28:16 -!- disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has quit [Quit: zzzZZZ] 18:28:27 just be prepared to threw several attempts away 18:29:01 stassats`: not really 18:29:14 pavelpenev: O.o now that's a lot of itext ^^ 18:31:55 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru` 18:34:35 k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.38] has joined #lisp 18:35:02 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:36:54 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 18:37:18 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:27 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 18:38:07 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:16 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:38:58 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:57 atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 18:42:34 -!- atsidi [~atsidi@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:50 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:43 OK. Now I have `m#(index:.+?(?=index:|>>>))#gs' in perl and I have to make cl-ppcre love me and accept that. 18:46:45 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:47:17 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:35 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 18:48:20 "(index:.+?(?=index:|>>>))" doesn't work? 18:49:13 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:27 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:58 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 18:50:01 stassats`: Unfortunately, no, because it's multiline, so I have to use (?s:...). 18:50:29 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:51:16 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:52:14 so, does it work? 18:53:18 stassats`: Nope. I want it to return a bunch of "index:...", but it only returns the larger, or smaller, match. 18:53:45 I'm almost giving up and just go for `search'. 18:54:19 can you show me an example of the input? 18:54:24 or a description 18:54:25 Sure. 18:56:42 stassats`: http://paste.kde.org/530384/ 18:59:34 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:01:03 Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has joined #lisp 19:01:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-119.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:02:05 didi: (ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "(?s:(index:.+?(?=index:|>>>)))" input) seems to work 19:02:36 *didi* kisses stassats` 19:02:45 or (ppcre:do-matches-as-strings (match "(?s:(index:.+?(?=index:|>>>)))" *foo*) (print match)) 19:02:51 if you want to work on them directly 19:03:00 Awesome! 19:03:03 stassats`: Thank you. 19:08:28 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 19:08:42 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 or just "(?s:index:.+?(?=index:|>>>))" 19:11:51 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:27 -!- koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:12:36 stassats`: Even better. 19:12:49 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.154.135] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 19:12:54 (ppcre:do-matches-as-strings (match #.(ppcre:create-scanner "index:.+?(?=index:|>>>)" :single-line-mode t) *foo*) (print match)) if you don't like ?s 19:13:20 stassats`: Nah, I'm cool with it, although it's nice to learn about alternatives. 19:15:44 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:54 weechat-curses 19:16:09 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:23 disciple [~krishna@117.207.101.41] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:36 koisoke [xef4@epilogue.org] has joined #lisp 19:19:01 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 19:20:00 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:51 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.67.106] has joined #lisp 19:22:11 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:24:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.61.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:27:15 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:15 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:15 -!- mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 19:27:34 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:03 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:34:12 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-143-213.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:04 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:54 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:41:28 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-35-61.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:32 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 hrm .. seems to be a specific call in cl-cairo2 that's causing 1.0.58 to die to ldb .. i'm not entirely certain how to approach this 19:45:01 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: immediate death] 19:45:11 oGMo: what platform? 19:45:22 pkhuong: amd64 .. may be related to the gc-invariant bug on devel 19:45:30 gcc-4.5.3 19:45:33 and OS? 19:45:50 oh right, linux_x64 heh 19:46:02 er, x86_64 19:46:20 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:56 worked as of sbcl-1.0.57.10-77a1e28 but that was fairly close to 1.0.57 19:47:14 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-46.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:30 fredrik___ [~fredrik@vpn10.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:33 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:19 -!- fredrik___ [~fredrik@vpn10.hotsplots.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:08 -!- Guest71423 is now known as xristos 19:59:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-119.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:00:50 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.102.67.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:55 -!- mritz_ [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:01:21 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.23.120.64] has joined #lisp 20:04:05 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:28 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:06:18 -!- prip [~foo@host80-120-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:17:57 tensorpudding__ [~michael@99.56.162.244] has joined #lisp 20:18:11 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 20:19:04 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.23.120.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:19:39 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has joined #lisp 20:20:15 prip [~foo@95.237.24.182] has joined #lisp 20:20:50 -!- LiamH [~healy@254.sub-70-192-195.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:21:46 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:29:14 _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:22 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 20:29:57 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:31:16 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:32:35 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:00 LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:40:48 -!- agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:42:16 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-35-61.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:42:52 agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 20:46:44 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:47:04 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:30 -!- agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:45 agumonkey [~agu@233.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:54:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-119.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:35 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-212-207.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:56:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:57:56 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-195-192.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:03:56 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:04:59 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.41.137.38] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:05:03 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:43 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 21:07:01 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:07:50 mike4_ [~mike4_@gateway/tor-sasl/mike4/x-38362156] has joined #lisp 21:13:07 RomyRomy [~stickycak@h-66-167-187-222.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:19 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:15:15 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:17:11 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:46 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:06 what's a good page to learn handling of the loop macro? 21:20:41 reactormonk: the PCL chapter is good 21:20:55 PCL? 21:21:03 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.150] has joined #lisp 21:21:50 reactormonk: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 21:21:53 minion: tell reactormonk about pcl-book 21:21:53 reactormonk: look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:22:02 ah, right, wgetted that one 21:23:25 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 21:24:39 -!- LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:43 in loop macro, is there some nice way to collect both minimal f(x) and x at the same time? 21:25:56 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.133.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:26:36 newcup: nope 21:27:05 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 21:27:19 pkhuong: too bad. thanks anyway 21:27:31 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:28:14 newcup: iterate has that, I think (: 21:28:36 <|3b|> if you mean literally COLLECT, you can minimize into foo then collect foo 21:28:57 <|3b|> ah, you probably meant find the x that produced minimal f(x) though 21:30:54 is there a way to 'identify' a clos object? a property that every clos object has that doesn't change, and is unique to that single object? 21:31:43 <|3b|> the object itself 21:31:45 fronglong: yes. THe object itself! 21:31:45 fronglong: except for the object itself, no. 21:31:47 antifuchs: thanks, I guess it does: "finding expr minimizing m-expr into (x, y)" 21:31:48 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:50 fronglong: (identity object) 21:32:02 yay (: 21:32:12 Depending on your use case, a weak hash table may do the trick. 21:32:29 car vs. cdr - why the difference? http://sprunge.us/jZCg 21:33:04 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:33:10 reactormonk: draw the CONSes with links, you'll see. 21:33:11 reactormonk: try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '((1 2) (3 4))) 21:33:14 <|3b|> reactormonk: no difference, try with FOO = (1 . 2) or ((1 2) . (3 4)) 21:33:27 what is a more efficient way of identifying an object? 21:33:35 fronglong: what do you mean by identify? 21:33:41 fronglong: (identity object) is O(1). 21:33:54 efficient as in storage, sorry 21:34:01 Ot 21:34:07 It's also O(1) in space. 21:34:18 pjb: how do I install that package with asdf? 21:34:24 or quicklisp... 21:34:35 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) 21:35:14 thanks 21:36:37 pjb: now that's a shitload of packages 21:36:55 Yes, so that features are packaged in nice independent packages. 21:37:11 reactormonk: I've been programming in lisp since 1996. 21:37:15 or 1994. 21:37:56 pjb: nice. I played Siedler 1 at that time... 21:38:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.142.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:15 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 21:38:20 I get this when I run (identity person), a sample clos object I just made in the repl: # 21:38:29 is that the identifier 21:38:44 pjb: so car follows the arrow down and cdr the one to the right? 21:39:01 fronglong: yes, it's the printed representation of the identifier at the time it was printed. 21:39:11 fronglong: notice that the printed representation can change, but not the identifier itself. 21:39:19 reactormonk: yes. 21:39:22 (cdar foo) 21:39:24 (2) 21:39:26 huh? 21:39:35 I expected (3 4) 21:39:39 (cadr foo) = (cdr (car foo)) 21:39:44 (cdar foo) = (cdr (car foo)) 21:39:45 The car of the cdr. 21:39:56 (cadr foo) = (car (cdr foo)) 21:40:05 oh 21:40:07 nagato [~stardivin@122.236.244.144] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 pjb: what does that mean, how can the printed representation change not reflect a change in the identity? 21:40:13 a/the 21:40:42 fronglong: the print-object method may change, and the garbage collector may move the object, so the digits printed may be different. 21:40:47 thanks :-) 21:41:01 pjb: where's the documentation to these packages? 21:41:15 optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:25 looks like it contains some stuff that will be of interest to me :-) 21:41:32 fronglong: for example, the identifier of an integer is the integer itself. The printed representation of the integer will change, depending on the *print-base* and some other things. 21:41:33 pjb: and do they have nicknames that don't take half my screen :) 21:41:57 pavelpenev: you can add nicknames easily yourself with: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname 21:42:10 ECL or CLISP for creating windows exe's that run on win7/winxp? do they both work? I'll be using this for production code delivered to a client. 21:42:17 pjb: that's what I mean though, if moving an object in memory changes the identity... 21:42:31 fronglong: it doesn't change the identity! 21:42:39 fronglong: it just changes the printed representation of the identity. 21:42:45 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 21:42:57 fronglong: what are you actually doing? 21:43:03 (let ((id (identity object))) (ext:gc) (eq id (identity object))) --> T 21:43:23 Bike: not understanding anything. 21:43:35 well, yes 21:43:37 I'm just playing around with clos 21:44:31 What integers are "42" or "101010" printed representations of the identity? 21:44:36 -!- theron [~theron@dslb-084-060-180-027.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:35 fronglong: EQ or EQL test for object identity. 21:46:18 CL-PPCRE has some cool macros. 21:46:30 well EQ doesn't test character or integer identity, but their addresses. 21:46:39 It's really EQL that test for object identity. 21:47:47 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 I guess I was just kind of hoping that there would be something like gensym (but longer/dynamic) that gives a unique id to every object upon creation 21:49:49 gensym doesn't do that. 21:49:50 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:09 okay, just a randomly generated unique identifier 21:50:35 (let ((x (let ((*gensym-counter* 0)) (gensym))) (y (let ((*gensym-counter* 0)) (gensym))) ) (list x y (eql x y))) => (#:g0 #:g0 nil) 21:50:56 Notice how gensym returns unique objects (with different identities, but with same printed representation of that identity! 21:51:14 We told you, it cannot be simplier: the identity of an object is the object itself. 21:51:30 You didn't trust us, so we played with you telling you about IDENTITY. 21:51:38 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:51:51 fronglong: you can use a weak EQ hash table to simulate extra slots. 21:52:05 fronglong: the only possible unique identifier is the object itself. That's the fundamental basis if OO! 21:52:38 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-012-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:40 so there is nothing more efficient than comparing objects to other objects? 21:53:55 it's O(1). What more efficient do you want? 21:54:04 fronglong: you're just trolling. 21:54:06 fronglong: it's hard to be more efficient than comparing two pointers for equality. 21:54:11 there's nothing more efficient than not doing something (: 21:54:28 I'm not trolling 21:55:03 just because it's a constant doesn't mean the size of the objects are small... 21:55:24 fronglong: do you know what a reference is? 21:55:27 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:28 poe's law .. but in this case, trolling and actual complete lack of understanding 21:55:40 yes, I believe so 21:55:47 fronglong: EQ and EQL test for *identity* (so do all the other standard equality tests when used on standard-objects, but that's another story). 21:56:06 references fit in registers. 21:56:08 fronglong: an EQ/EQL test is mostly equivalent to a pointer comparison 21:56:13 so, really really pretty fast 21:57:09 I think fronglong is thinking about putting two arrays of bits, side by side, and then comparing their bits, position by position. 21:57:25 right, but lets say the objects are serialized, and I don't want to thrash. 21:59:23 fronglong: what about if you started to think? 21:59:48 so no one's used ECL or CLISP for standalone exes on windows? 22:00:05 fronglong: thrash how? Do you mean that you're trying to serialise objects, and want to preserve sharing (multiple references to the same object) when unserialising? 22:00:09 if your object sizes were big, they'd be O(n), and if you can compare for identity two objects O(n) big in O(1) time, you should understand that serialized or not it doesn't matter. 22:00:18 -!- reactormonk [~tass@cpe-70-116-15-3.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:00:21 optikalmouse: CLISP worked out of the box for me, ~8 years ago. 22:02:14 pjb: but I still have to load the objects... whereas if there was a unique id, and it was somehow serialized in a manner that let me read it alone, I might be able to skip loading objects fully to compare 22:02:44 fronglong: you're confusing the object and its data. 22:02:45 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 22:02:50 mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:53 pjb: what does that mean? 22:03:10 You can have objects that are not unserialized. 22:03:41 you can have objects that are serialized? 22:03:49 Yes. 22:04:05 The fact that the data of an object is copied or moved to a disk file is irrelevant to the identity of the object. 22:05:08 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:05:41 fronglong: but otherwise, are you implementing a n-th persistence library? There are already several libraries available. 22:05:44 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:06:00 but, to compare objects that are serialized to ones that aren't, I have to load the serialized one 22:06:24 fronglong: http://www.cliki.net/ObjectStore 22:06:30 No. 22:06:36 You just have to instanciate them. 22:07:34 (defclass proxy () ((file :initarg :file :reader proxy-file) (position :initarg :position :reader proxy-position))) (read-oo-file-index) --> (# #  #) 22:07:53 pkhuong: awesome, thanks. I'll try CLISP first then :D 22:08:01 and when you want to access the data of the object, (deserialize (first (read-oo-file-index))) --> # 22:08:31 Notice that (let ((id (first (read-oo-file-index)))) (eq id (deserialize id))) --> T 22:08:43 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@h-66-167-187-222.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:46 RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@h-66-167-187-222.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:36 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-144-152.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: bed] 22:10:14 optikalmouse: you could try ccl too. 22:10:58 I'm going to have to do more reading about this, but thank you guys for putting up with me 22:12:03 -!- nagato [~stardivin@122.236.244.144] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 22:12:49 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.219] has joined #lisp 22:12:59 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:13:41 nagato [~stardivin@122.236.244.144] has joined #lisp 22:20:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:20:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.118.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:25 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-65-132.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:22:05 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-70-112-3-176.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:22:54 -!- tensorpudding__ is now known as tensorpudding 22:22:55 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:24:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:26:25 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:26:45 -!- TimKack [~user@213.208.236.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:05 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:18 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:30:59 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:33:43 wakeup [~max@xdsl-89-0-188-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:53 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:36:23 vaus [~vaus@180.Red-83-61-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:03 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 -!- wakeup_ [~max@xdsl-89-0-75-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:38:43 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 22:40:01 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:00 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 22:42:49 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:43:13 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:45:48 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:11 Forty-3 [~seana11@198.24.31.70] has joined #lisp 22:51:00 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:54:13 superflit [~superflit@65-128-53-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:04 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:01:21 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:02:42 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:03:16 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:04:18 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:04:35 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:20 RomyRomy [~stickycak@h-66-167-187-222.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:26 -!- RomyRomy_ [~stickycak@h-66-167-187-222.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.140.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:14:45 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:15:56 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:44 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:00 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 23:29:41 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:25 dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:41:25 -!- dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:48:01 Is there an &whole equivalent for loop? 23:48:18 *Xach* isn't quite sure what that would be like 23:48:19 re: destructuring, that is. 23:49:34 Yeah, for foo in foos for bar = (fourth foo) makes more sense than what I'm doing. Ignore me! :P 23:49:49 i still don't quite get it. &whole kind of makes sense for macros to get the whole form, but it's not really the same situation 23:51:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 23:51:27 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:56:28 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:20 -!- p_l|abdn is now known as p_l|repairing-os 23:59:40 dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 23:59:40 -!- dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood]