00:00:30 Bike: doesn't seem relevant 00:00:39 Bike, I'm familiar with this. Is there something more specific you think I should look at? 00:01:01 stassats, for lexically binding FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECTs 00:01:18 Quadrescence: and why do you want to do that? 00:01:30 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 00:01:33 Quadrescence: labels via flet should be easy enough to modify, I did it myself once 00:02:34 -!- waveman [~tim@124-170-25-10.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:36 Bike: well, what Quadrescence is asking is quite easy to do using flet without doing any chicanery 00:02:50 but, the question is whether he should do it 00:03:18 Oh, yes, I misunderstood 00:03:29 should have read past "something like letrec", sorry. 00:03:35 and should he even be using funcallable-instances 00:03:38 stassats, it can make for cleaner looking code? Or if you have function-returning-functions, you can locally bind those? 00:04:17 stassats, ignore the funcallable-instances, just consider some curried function, and wanting to specialize on a single argument or whatever. 00:04:36 by cleaner you mean more confusing? 00:05:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:05:32 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Quit: Matt_S_G] 00:05:39 Quadrescence: well, i wouldn't "curry" anything in the first place 00:06:05 I'd prefer not to discuss motivations or reasons not to do it. I like writing functions and functions that produce functions. And it so happens making function bindings which are the results of other high order functions is useful. 00:06:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:06:48 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:06:53 just LET and FUNCALL works fine, is clear to everyone and doesn't require additional macros 00:06:58 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:08 I am looking for a better way to do it than converting (name f) to (flet ((name (&rest args) (apply f args)))) 00:07:40 the better way is not to 00:08:34 why are people so afraid of funcall? 00:08:35 Why do you suppose it's better/best to use LET/FUNCALL? 00:08:57 because it's simple 00:09:20 (funcall f (* (funcall g a b) (funcall g c (funcall h p q)))) is harder to read than (f (* (g a b) (g c (h p q))) 00:09:40 if it's not funcall heavy, I'm fine with using LET/FUNCALL 00:10:09 either one is gibberish 00:10:32 I also like printing my code, which means keeping it at around 80 columns. But these preferences are beside the point. You might prefer LET/FUNCALL, but that doesn't answer the question. 00:11:05 discarding a question is an answer too! 00:12:23 One that almost always gives you zero points 00:13:05 no, it gives you a 1000 points 00:13:26 The funcallable instance stuff is a result of me wanting to make some things able to have the same treatment as regular functions. For example, permutation code I'm writing, which would be an appropriate funcallable object, since mathematically, permutations are functions. However, there's a more efficient way to represent them over traditional LAMBDAs. 00:13:47 And I'd prefer to bind permutations just like binding local functions 00:14:01 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:14:14 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:14:29 Quadrescence: I honestly can't think of anything not implementation specific other than the apply approach you said earlier.. Crossing that namespace boundary seems pretty difficult 00:15:45 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:03 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:16:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:25:25 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has left #lisp 00:26:21 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-98-245-40-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:26:43 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:27:39 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx50-2-142177100211.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:27:58 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:29:08 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:32:00 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:34:06 mast` [~alex@modemcable051.114-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:09 -!- mast` [~alex@modemcable051.114-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Changing host] 00:34:09 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 00:34:11 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:36:25 Well, I implemented LETREC here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/letrec 00:36:34 If anyone has implementation-specific patches, I'd appreciate them. 00:37:32 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.35] has joined #lisp 00:42:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:10 dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 00:53:47 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:32 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:03:29 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:30 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-162.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Ping 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joined #lisp 03:13:19 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:13:59 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AE5C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:14:25 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:46 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@85.85-87-28.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has quit [] 03:25:02 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.137.233.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:27:55 -!- dnolen [~user@rrcs-208-105-4-254.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:28:03 ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has joined #lisp 03:29:24 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:54 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31:54 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:38 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:16 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:35:40 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:36:03 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 03:37:22 m801 [~user@ip72-220-215-143.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:57 -!- m801 [~user@ip72-220-215-143.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:38:01 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 03:41:56 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:43:19 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:44:57 raining_ [~raining_@S01060026f396243f.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:58 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 03:47:59 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:53:48 -!- neomage [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:55:33 bjorkintosh: have a look at clash: http://www.clisp.org/clash.html 03:56:51 thanks pjb. 04:00:43 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.16.32] has joined #lisp 04:02:42 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:18 Hmm... I remember reading something about a function similar to mapcar that would repeat elements of a list if the two input lists were different lengths... but now I can't find it. Could someone point me in the right direction/ 04:13:19 ? 04:13:55 Not in CL. 04:14:02 ah 04:14:02 But you can easily write one. 04:14:05 nods 04:14:07 I shall :) 04:14:16 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:14:21 Thanks, pjb 04:15:15 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.24.184] has joined #lisp 04:20:40 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:21:47 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:22:24 kanru [~kanru@209.118.182.194] has joined #lisp 04:32:19 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.38.61] has joined #lisp 04:33:04 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:37:17 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:03 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.226] has joined #lisp 04:40:10 anon119 [~androirc@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:42:17 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:43:17 getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@14-202-66-99.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:43:28 Hrm... puzzled again. I've got a format string containing an unknown number of ~A, and I'd like to fill them all with the same argument... any pointers? 04:44:55 Count them. 04:45:03 Then what? 04:45:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:46:01 Then nothing, since the number of occurences of "~A" in a format-control string is unrelated to the number of arguments needed by format. 04:46:20 There could be some ~{ ~[ ~:{ ~@[ etc. 04:46:28 er 04:46:48 -!- jaxtr [~vazakl@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:46:50 The only control present in the string is ~A (a few times) 04:47:13 Now if you mean that you are writing the format control string, you can use ~* to skip forward or backward in the argument list. 04:47:20 jaxtr [~vazakl@22.50.5646.static.theplanet.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:30 (format nil "~A~:*~A" 42) => "4242" 04:47:49 anon1191 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:51 Interesting... 04:48:27 I'd rather not have to modify all the strings... 04:48:42 search and replace 04:48:42 :P 04:50:08 *Oladon* grumbles 04:50:33 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:14 Oladon: either you can modify the format control string, or the format arguments. 04:51:57 pjb: I was trying to pass it a list containing the proper number of (repeated) items, but it doesn't seem to like being passed a list 04:52:15 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 04:52:29 For that you need to parse the format-control string, and to build the structure needed. 04:53:02 (format nil "~A ~{~A ~{~A ~A~} ~A~}" 1 '(1 ((1 1) (1 1)) 1)) => "1 1 (1 1) (1 1) 1" 04:53:43 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:48 (format nil "~A ~{~A ~:[~A~;~] ~A~}" 1 '(1 ((nil) (t 1)) 1)) => "1 1 1" 04:54:16 What about (format nil "some text ~A and some other text ~A" 'foo) 04:55:53 As I said, you need to parse the format control string to build the corresponding structure: (apply (function format) nil control-string (parse-ctrlstrg-and-generate-structure control-string 'foo)) 04:56:10 o.O 04:56:42 I think I'll go with Ralith's suggestion :P 04:59:05 asvil [~asvil@178.121.18.80] has joined #lisp 05:04:30 Thanks guys. 05:06:14 I'm still having a bit of trouble understanding when to use macros and when they make life easier. is ther a good library that exemplifies that? 05:11:05 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:11:16 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:12:45 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-172-158-192.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:55 -!- raining_ [~raining_@S01060026f396243f.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:20:01 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:21:16 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:21:22 kanedank: you write a macro when you want to do something at compilation time, processing code that you type at compilation time, to generate code to be run at run-time. 05:23:16 kanedank: have a look at: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/gsQJOGKYUw4/oLLHW0f4Ce4J and https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/comp.programming/FiNIiSm5cJE/JkF5wa6Ke54J 05:23:42 kanedank: basically, you write a macro when you are typing some code and thinking: craps, I've already typed the same thing twice! 05:24:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:24:27 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:25:51 -!- getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@14-202-66-99.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 05:25:59 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:26:31 -!- milanj [~milanj_@91-150-119-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:27:17 getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@14-202-66-99.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:27:52 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-221-59.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:58 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:36:47 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:36:47 -!- samebchase [samuel@pi.nipl.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:48 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:44:43 Hi everyone! 05:44:47 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 05:46:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:49:25 What do you recommend to read about CL code formatting/variable naming/etc conventions? Googleing gave me nothing. 05:51:16 I know only how to indent code and about */+. Are there something other I need to know to write readable code? 05:52:15 there's a presentation by norvig and pitman 05:53:02 Found it, thanks. 05:58:41 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 05:59:53 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.198.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:00:13 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.18.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:03 asvil [~asvil@178.121.18.80] has joined #lisp 06:04:38 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-010-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:43 -!- anon1191 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:11:10 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 06:12:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:14:05 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:06 -!- anon119 [~androirc@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:19:50 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-26-233.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:25:47 anon119 [~androirc@67.181.158.121] has joined #lisp 06:26:57 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.137.233.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 06:28:39 -!- kanedank [~kanedank@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 06:32:38 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.24.184] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 06:32:40 chturne [~chturne@host86-148-233-236.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:14 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:34:20 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:42 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:46 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:39 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.24.184] has joined #lisp 06:44:03 waveman [~tim@124-170-25-10.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:44:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 06:46:09 ehu [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:31 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:00 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@AMontsouris-551-1-9-17.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:29 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-158-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:47:59 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:48:24 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@AMontsouris-551-1-23-18.w90-24.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:48:37 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 06:52:14 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:52:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:52:14 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:55:05 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 06:55:53 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:19 anon1191 [~bman@c-67-181-158-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:18 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-010-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:58:52 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - 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It may be useful for beginners. 07:44:18 And I remember there's syntax validator for Python too. 07:44:45 hitecnologys: the syntax validator for common lisp is called "compiler" 07:45:30 H4ns: No, compiler won't complain if (defvar OLOLO nil), but better is (defvar *OLOLO* nil). I meant this. 07:45:47 actually, many compilers do complain about that. 07:46:25 hitecnologys: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5987556/static-code-analysis-tool-for-common-lisp 07:46:28 Bike: But not sbcl. 07:47:05 doesn't it? I've seen several "this is a dynamic variable but it doesn't follow the conventions" warnings 07:47:15 Bike: it does 07:49:05 it is a sad fact that writing a cl code analysis tool in cl is harder than one would expect because ofthe reader and reader macros in particular 07:49:54 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-39.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 07:51:29 H4ns: Hm, Ok, sorry. 07:51:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:53:02 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:53:15 no need to feel sorry. harder does not mean impossible, and someone should start. you can be the one. 07:54:09 boah, ich hab hier so krasses lag, uebel 07:56:06 sorry. the lag is killing me so much that i've lost track of the window that i'm typing to :/ 07:56:33 gprs is not fast enough to feed a family of four online addicts 07:57:31 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:02:25 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:07:13 abeaumont [~Alfredo@85.85-87-28.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #lisp 08:13:09 Yeah, ISPs don't provide family IP connection :-( 08:14:03 pjb: i'm on tim in italia and it is cheap and fast at the coast, but we're some 15km into the country and there it is slow 08:14:39 That's what you get with a star network. 08:14:53 But IP was designed to be a meshed network at first. 08:15:00 pjb: i'm not interested in your excuses!!11 i want fast! 08:15:03 :) 08:15:16 Then don't pay a corporation that makes a star network. 08:15:35 Of course star network is good for corporation, since it limits the bandwidth, they can make you pay for it. 08:15:57 pjb: don't try to explain by evil what you can explain by stupid. 08:15:58 A meshed network doesn't limit the bandwidth, doesn't have central control points, so cannot be made pay-for. 08:16:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:16:43 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[~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:40 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-qntrdjhhyysjldlb] has joined #lisp 12:22:50 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-qntrdjhhyysjldlb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23:08 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-ywxeielgcgpolcrf] has joined #lisp 12:23:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:24:59 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:25:20 sounds good in theory, but in practice every meshed network tended to develop hubs, where majority of traffic went throgh. ie fidonet 12:26:12 maxm: that depends on the density of nodes, and the conectivity. Fidonet worked on POTS with intermitent connectivity, hence the tendency toward hubs. 12:26:14 That is because, as with rivers and blood vessels, that tends to be efficient. 12:26:16 because some ppl can afford to run nodes 27/7 with backups, many lines etc.. So eventually economies of scale take over, and everyone rather be connected to 1 stable always-on node, then to 3 shaky ones 12:26:45 But nowadays, with wireless connectivity, we could apply meshed networks in a wider scale. 12:27:10 Now, of course, big cities and connections between big cities would be the "backbones" of a meshed network, but it's natural. 12:27:59 To simplify, networks should be run by cities, and interconnected cities, not by corporations. 12:28:25 Just like the road network is built by land-based authorities, not by corporations. 12:28:46 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.155] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:29:43 "net access as utility" kind of makes sense, but even utilities are not all run by goverment 12:30:06 they are kind of subsidised monopolies here in US 12:32:16 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:32:46 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-153.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:57 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-64.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:41:27 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:42:05 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:10 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:43:32 maxm: the point is that customers have no control over corporations, but citizen have some control over cities. 12:43:51 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:54 Customers have some control over corporations. 12:44:15 They just tend to be disorganized and ineffectual, which is why corporations discourage unions. 12:45:01 generally as far as network access goes, in USA it seems competition finally working, at least in NYC 12:45:19 Well, if by working, you mean approaching 3rd world levels ... 12:45:32 verizon and cablevision both competing, and offer pretty good connectivity 12:48:44 what's "pretty good" there ? 12:49:03 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:49:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 12:50:26 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:50:30 120/month for optimum business account, includes 5 static ips, no filtering whatsoever, reverse dns available, 15.0/3.0 mbit/s up-down, includes phone and tv with business basic lineup (same as familiy basic but no hbo and showtime, but adds bloomberg and other financial channels) 12:50:55 technical support answers 24/7 never had to wait longer then 10 seconds 12:51:19 up/down reversed above sorry 12:52:13 -!- _Steeler_ [~Steeler@c-76-31-27-51.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:52:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:52:46 That's about what we have in cities in Europe. 12:53:06 including static ip? 12:53:13 there are (quite a few nowadays) places in the world where you get 100/50 for half that price 12:53:22 Yes. With dynip it's only 30/month 12:53:49 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:54:07 well guess I'm behind the times then.. Seemed like a pretty good deal after DSL line :-) 12:54:32 You get that with optic fiber. 12:55:13 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 12:55:28 verizon has similar deal, but for some reason were very stuck up about "some ports will be closed and filtered".. Its not like I'm running a spam warehouse or something 12:56:00 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:56:46 ngz [~user@245.12.99.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:29 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 12:58:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.155] has quit [Quit: install Mountain Lion!!!] 12:59:11 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:00:54 maxm: fwiw, I get 50Mbit/s up/down via optics for ~$50 a month, in Reykjavik. 13:01:16 *maxm* was happy, but now you made me sad 13:02:35 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:45 springz [~springz@120.65.234.18] has joined #lisp 13:03:06 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 13:03:14 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:03:20 -!- leoncamel [~user@219.142.140.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:48 maxm: Who gets TV & phone service anymore? 13:05:37 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:07:06 well most people still have a carrier for cell phone service 13:07:20 lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYFI_z7SxSI 13:07:25 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mobvsvrjoacdyxfk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:31 prolly most people in US still get regular cable tv 13:07:49 JuanDaugherty: Yeah, I mean land-line  that's what you get along with Internet. 13:08:35 i only get video thru the net but I have a cell phone carrier. Haven't had a paid tv account in years. 13:09:00 JuanDaugherty: Same here. And haven't had a land-line in over a decade. 13:09:03 problem is that number is given to tons of people, and I have relatives who are not skype aware, so I can't port it to cell phone due to cell phone having really bad international rates 13:09:07 Land line? I haven't had one of those for a decade. 13:10:07 What's a land line? 13:10:39 maxm, they don't have computer/internet access? Skype or the like sounds like the best solution if they do. 13:10:44 maxm: Getting a SkypeIn number is cheaper than a land-line, though. 13:10:49 its like a regular phone line before the internet. Nowadays most of them are actually VOIP but pricing wise they give you good international rates 13:11:13 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:11:44 sellout: well it came bundled with 2-year contract with optimum, so essentially its free, since I can't get cheaper internet and tv separately then their bundle 13:12:28 anybody use Sneps? 13:12:41 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 13:13:11 s/use/play, use, whatever/ 13:13:32 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.168] has joined #lisp 13:14:07 *Xach* has not heard of sneps before today 13:14:12 -!- waveman [~tim@124-170-25-10.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:15:21 and by most in US meant 90 something plus percent of households 13:15:49 (cable and satellite combined) 13:16:56 *Xach* moved to a town that was just a few years removed from a town-wide party line, and had 4-digit local dialing 13:17:30 how long ago was that? 13:17:38 1987 13:17:55 so like 10 years ago or so (it seems) 13:18:44 '87 seems like 25 years ago to me. I was working at IBM on OS/2. 13:20:10 the ai winter was just beginning and some people in this channel were'nt born 13:20:47 though likely a small number, less than 10% I imagine 13:20:54 cold-war <-> ai-winter, coincidence ? 13:21:21 -!- anon1191 [~bman@c-67-181-158-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:24:32 its like classical and quantum mechanics.. ai ppl thought they can have a nice logical math oriented symbolic stuff, and bootstrap it to thinking machines, coz they thought thats how brain operated 13:25:09 Sneps or anything like it if someone thinks there's something better in the sem net category 13:25:15 by reality it seems that the way brain works is actually more close to statistical brute force stuff that google translate does 13:25:43 so ai winter is continuing, but moore law allowed data mining techniques to start produce usable results 13:25:47 tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:06 -!- am0c [~am0c@121.160.18.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:26:21 i consider Watson to be the final end of the AI winter 13:26:58 Yea and its purely statistical engine from what i understand? 13:27:08 no it isn't 13:27:15 not purely 13:28:12 but I don't know enough of details to say. I do know that the total project cost seemed to be something of a secret. 13:29:01 Frankly, the ai-winter came about because of snake-oil. 13:29:21 The people with the money realized that the ai people were lying through their teeth about what was realistically possible. 13:29:33 Even if the ai people didn't know it. 13:29:34 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.198.95] has joined #lisp 13:29:57 we agreee that money was the issue 13:30:21 The problem was probably that they got given too much money in the first place. 13:30:24 in the current world system it always is 13:30:32 Which lead to problems when it was cut off. 13:30:48 A bit like a teenager with a credit-card. 13:31:03 or almost always, when education/ignorance isn't and money is the root cause of that too 13:32:04 money is the root of ignorance? 13:32:10 that's a new one 13:32:43 isn't ignorance an evil in your estimation? 13:32:55 that's quite a non sequitur 13:34:31 well anyway I prefer G.B Shaw's quote that "the love of economy is the root of all good" 13:36:15 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-24-213.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:29 ignorance is bliss 13:37:47 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 roses are red, violets blue! 13:38:36 lol 13:38:45 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:46 i hereby declaim by love to thee! 13:38:50 bleh 13:38:56 burp 13:41:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 13:41:11 now munch that with security 3, speed 0 13:41:13 lol 13:41:46 *maxm* does not want no inputs near his standard output 13:42:01 xan_ [~xan@193.144.61.240] has joined #lisp 13:47:47 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:10 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 13:49:43 tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:11 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 maxm: (read-from-string (prin1-to-string something)) 14:02:45 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:19 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru` 14:05:20 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:06:07 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:07:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.99.128] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 14:08:04 which is the channel bot here ? 14:08:20 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 14:08:41 There are several: minion, specbot and others. 14:09:31 so minion is scheme based, specbot cl ? 14:09:45 Everything's written in Common Lisp, of course. 14:09:45 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 14:09:58 ah ok 14:10:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:17:13 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:47 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:00 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:18 tro [~tro@101.165.40.130] has joined #lisp 14:25:24 Hey there 14:26:08 Can someone give me a pointer on clearing the terminal in gcl? I can only find clisp native commands but screen:Clearwindow isn't working 14:26:23 If someone can tell me how to make system calls I already know the answer. 14:26:37 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:47 I'm coming along quite well in Lisp but this still eludes me. 14:27:03 Well, the first advice would be not to use gcl. Why are you using it? 14:27:07 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 14:28:15 Then, it's exceptional to have such a function in a CL implementation. You could use a library wrapping FFI calls to some host OS terminal handling library (eg. ncurses on unix systems, something specific on MS-Windows, etc). There are CL libraries named terminfo and iolib that could help here. 14:28:23 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.36.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:28:24 also of course, cl-ncurses 14:29:13 tro: again, if you want to make syscalls, why searching for something specific to gcl? Use CFFI to make foreign calls. 14:29:32 apt-get was returning the request Media change: please insert the disc labeled: 'Debian GNU/Linux 6.0.4 _Squeeze_ - Official Snapshot i386 LIVE/INSTALL Binary 20120129-11:36'. And I don't have a boot disc on me. Seemed easier to add a gcl repo than to build clisp 14:30:08 Thank you. Can you elaborate as to your opinion on why clisp's superior. 14:30:25 tro: GCL was never a good lisp, and it's dead now. 14:30:27 rmarianski [~rmariansk@209.20.72.181] has joined #lisp 14:30:37 ice [~ice@222.130.139.33] has joined #lisp 14:30:42 debian provides sbcl IIRC. 14:31:03 tro: what sellout says. GCL was developed only as back-end to maxima and nothing more 14:31:15 tro: apart from gcl, each CL implementation has strong points. (They all have different strong points, which make them all interesting, depending on what you're doing). 14:31:24 GCL lives on via its common descendant ECL. 14:31:30 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:33:04 Can you name any specific advantages between GCL SBCL Afralisp Emacs & clisp? is it good to attempt to learn more than one. 14:33:41 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:44 *Xach* is not familiar with afralisp 14:33:45 I don't know Afralisp. Emacs lisp is not Common Lisp. The others mentionned are Common Lisp implementations. 14:34:24 Seems afralisp is a website concerned with autolisp. autolisp like emacs lisp is specific to an application (autocad for autolisp, emacs for emacs lisp). 14:34:27 googling suggests to me that Afralisp is some learning tool for AutoLISP. 14:34:30 I found afralisp whilst looking at visual implementations I found it after being unable to find any sufficient opengl documentation, 14:34:45 -!- springz [~springz@120.65.234.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:46 oh true. my bad, 14:35:24 on #lispgames they may have more opinions aboug opengl and CL. 14:35:26 springz [~springz@120.65.234.18] has joined #lisp 14:36:07 I'm going to close x for a second I should be back, thanks for the help. I'll head over and check it out. 14:36:17 tro: you may have a look at what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 14:36:18 -!- tro [~tro@101.165.40.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:59 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:38:08 springz_ [~springz@120.65.234.18] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 -!- springz [~springz@120.65.234.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:43:13 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:35 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:48:07 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:48:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@193.144.61.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:49:46 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:03 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-ywxeielgcgpolcrf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:34 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:53:32 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@200.169.18.6] has joined #lisp 14:54:00 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:54:42 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-148-233-236.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:54:47 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:58:17 ping kpreid 14:58:18 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:00:33 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@200.169.18.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:52 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 what 15:01:18 kpreid, was just wondering if you had an opinion on Sneps, under the presumption you were at SUNY buffalo or near it 15:01:39 nope, never been to Buffalo 15:01:54 ok so nevermind 15:04:54 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:14 -!- anon119 [~androirc@67.181.158.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:07:29 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:09:05 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.18.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:34 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:15 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.155] has joined #lisp 15:21:14 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:23:32 chturne [~chturne@host86-148-233-236.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 Greetings lispers 15:24:27 anon119 [~androirc@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:58 lo thomas! 15:27:25 how's yo closure doin! 15:28:23 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:30:29 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 15:31:22 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:32:13 wbooze: just fine, thanks! 15:32:16 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:25 echo-area [~user@114.254.102.184] has joined #lisp 15:33:07 good to hear! 15:33:15 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 15:33:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:34:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:35:35 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 yello ThomasH, do you have a favorite lisp semantic net implementation? 15:35:50 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-132-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:36:06 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-sgmqzwkrjalfvbgw] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:37:54 -!- anon119 [~androirc@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:04 JuanDaugherty: I'm not really knowledgeable on the semantic web, much less lisp libraries implementing it. 15:38:09 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:39:04 -!- springz_ [~springz@120.65.234.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:39:06 anon119 [~androirc@10.sub-75-208-134.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:26 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:39:30 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 15:40:01 ah ok. FTR though there's no direct connection between a sem net and the sem web. 15:40:25 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:02 *ThomasH* WP semantic network. 15:42:44 JuanDaugherty: I don't do anything that formal with my data. I implicitly have those relationships in my code, but I don't formalize them. They're just there. 15:43:23 WP? You mean Word Net? 15:43:46 wikipedia, my guess 15:43:53 Wordnet does embed a sem net 15:44:15 Yes, wikipedia, the canonical source of all human knowledge. 15:44:16 right, there's a semantic mediawiki project 15:45:03 wordnet is neat, i was surprised there was so little use of it when i found it 15:45:06 -!- anon119 [~androirc@10.sub-75-208-134.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:21 there's a lot of use of 15:45:42 it's probably the single most used corpus in NLP projects 15:46:17 JuanDaugherty: what about LISA? 15:46:24 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:25 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:33 A Rete Net implementation. Perhaps not what you call semantic net. /sorry. 15:46:55 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 This is the best IRC channel to lurk in. Besides the obvious lisp knowledge, I usually pick up some other nugget as well. 15:48:35 jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:50:23 pjb, yeah I guess Rete is sortof a sem net, thx for the ref. 15:50:49 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:50:55 *nicdev* agrees with ThomasH on lurking on this channel 15:51:25 s/on/in 15:51:41 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:52:52 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:11 Is there library support somewhere for setting common-lisp-system-indentation (or an example) in slime/swank? 15:58:33 And lisa is in quicklisp (ql:quickload :lisa) 15:58:45 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 15:58:49 rpg: M-x slime-update-indentation 15:59:09 pjb: sorry -- I meant specifically from the lisp side, not the emacs side. 16:00:20 The docs say "Per-package indentation derived by the system." I thought that meant that when you load a CL system it might advertise through swank how it would like to be indented. Perhaps I didn't get this fully. 16:00:27 rpg: but it doesn't work always or often with me. Perhaps I have some botched configuration. I use my own load-lisp-indentation function that reads lisp.indentation files in the current directory and up to the root, and puts lisp-indent-function and common-lisp-indent-function properties on symbols specified in those files. 16:01:15 pjb: I am trying to determine to what extent SLIME indentation is now package-aware. cl-indent used to be package-ignorant, and so would do stupid things if you had the same name in different packages. 16:01:16 rpg: oh right. I remember a discussion about it, but IIRC, it was quite hairy to do anything about that with swank. 16:01:32 Yes. 16:01:35 pjb, thx! 16:01:44 ynniv [~ynniv@c-50-133-193-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:06 I suppose the alternative is somehow to put el information in your lisp files that SLIME will extract on the emacs side (rather than trying to push it through the connection to CL). 16:03:18 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:29 I don't see any examples of package-qualified indentation specs. Maybe it's as easy as saying something like (put 'cl-ppcre::foo 'cl-indent-function ...) but I couldn't tell. 16:03:59 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:01 speaking of weird implementations there is apparently japanese CL variant embedded into emacs called xyzzy 16:05:32 *maxm* only found it by seeing someone new watch log4cl on github, and clicked on guy's repositories 16:05:51 KCL was a japanese decendent of gcl, like ECL is a Spanish decendent of gcl :-) 16:06:04 then somehow went into sources, and was like "wtf, this looks like a mix of emacs with a CLOS implementation for windows" with no obvious common heritage to other CL 16:06:22 eieio is a CLOS-alike for emacs lisp. 16:06:42 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:07:47 pjb: the xxz one seemed to be shooting for full compatibility (ie there was something about ansi test suite etc), not look alike 16:09:53 -!- hugod [~user@69.157.169.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:13:11 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 -!- kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:22:58 pjb: Didier has a post about doing this from the CL side, but it's still not clear about how the packages are managed. 16:23:03 see http://www.didierverna.com/sciblog/index.php?tag/indentation 16:23:08 Jonasmith [~jons@144.sub-174-252-53.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.22.7] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.22.7] has quit [Changing host] 16:23:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:24:01 Didier's clindent is going to be influenced by the current setting of *package* in ways I find difficult to predict. 16:25:23 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:25:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.22.7] has joined #lisp 16:25:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.22.7] has quit [Changing host] 16:25:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:25:38 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-059-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:25:43 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 16:28:30 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 16:28:41 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest59675 16:29:22 -!- Guest59675 is now known as X-Scale 16:29:47 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:30:43 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:33:33 -!- Jonasmith [~jons@144.sub-174-252-53.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:18 -!- kanru [~kanru@209.118.182.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:35:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:36:04 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-244-26-233.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 16:36:11 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-162.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:18 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:38:58 -!- wibble37 [~pdo@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:39:23 tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:45:16 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:45:54 _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:26 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:06 _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:26 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:59 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:51:16 <_travis_> are there any mailing lists that are actually worth joining for someone new to LISP? 16:51:20 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:49 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 <_travis_> i see the list on common-lisp.net, but that's a pretty long list with little to no description of what you're signing up for :( 16:53:25 fredrik_ [~fredrik@vpn13.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:23 _travis_: news:comp.lang.lisp would be the most indicated, I'd say. 16:54:29 _travis_: the other lists are too specific. 16:54:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:54:44 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:06 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 16:55:13 _travis_: you know usenet? 16:55:59 <_travis_> yeah 16:56:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.30.91] has joined #lisp 16:56:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.30.91] has quit [Changing host] 16:56:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 <_travis_> i use google groups for comp.lang.lisp 16:56:17 travis: c.l.l is usable, but you need to immediately killfile all threads involving gavino, xah lee and WJ 16:56:22 <_travis_> i'm unaware of how to get into usenet without a subscription :( 16:56:24 then its actually quite joyous to read 16:56:32 _travis_: http://www.individual.net 10 /year. 16:56:56 <_travis_> ok, so i'm correct that you will have to pay something for access to usenet? 16:57:13 _travis_: yes. Perhaps you have an ISP that provides it, but nowadays it's rare. 16:57:34 <_travis_> pjb 16:57:35 <_travis_> erm 16:57:41 <_travis_> pjb: thanks 16:57:42 <_travis_> :o 16:57:43 there are some free providers. 16:57:44 I don't understand it either, supposedly they cut it off because of the traffic, but torrent, edonkey, and youtube must be much more traffic than usenet. 16:58:16 _travis_: oh cmon, https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/comp.lang.lisp 16:58:16 <_travis_> is comp.lang.lisp the usenet you'd suggest? 16:58:16 pjb: i suspect those traffic sources have far lower headache/byte ratio 16:58:28 _travis_: yes. 16:58:39 just remember the Xah Lee, WJ, gavino and quiet_lad thing, and block anything involving them, these are trolls 16:58:40 There are other groups that may be of interest, but comp.lang.lisp is the main one for a lisper. 16:58:49 -!- kwmiebach_ [kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:51 Perhaps we should share our killfiles :-) 16:59:10 *maxm* is not sure if how blocking works on google groups 16:59:22 <_travis_> maxm: is the google groups tied to the usenet address? that probably sounds like a dumb question, but... 16:59:23 kwmiebach [kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:59:33 _travis_: yes. 16:59:38 <_travis_> perfect. 16:59:50 _travis_: that is, usenet groups appear are google groups, but there are google groups that are not on usenet. 16:59:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:00 _travis_: yes, its the same thing..Google would love to completely envelop it, but so far there is still old usenet underneath 17:00:19 <_travis_> excellent. 17:00:39 <_travis_> i have been reading that for a few weeks now. 17:00:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:00:54 <_travis_> the content is a bit over my head most of the time, but i'll catch up eventually :) 17:01:09 _travis_: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html 17:01:28 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:01:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02:01 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:02:33 _travis_: http://xach.livejournal.com/138588.html and http://xach.livejournal.com/139017.html 17:02:33 <_travis_> ok, god wrote in lisp is pretty good 17:03:10 _travis_: and http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/ 17:04:44 eternal-september.org 17:05:21 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:35 <_travis_> oh wow, thanks for all the content 17:06:46 <_travis_> definitely bookmarking for later 17:09:32 -!- lizzin [~lizzin@unaffiliated/lizzin] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:11:06 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:19 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 real-hitecnology [~hitecnolo@46.233.202.49] has joined #lisp 17:12:19 usenet is what you make of it 17:12:30 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:13:05 kanru [~kanru@2620:101:8003:200:8ea9:82ff:fe77:2e8e] has joined #lisp 17:13:06 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.24.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:14:38 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:59 <_travis_> yeah, right now i'm just observing... using what i understand and don't understand as a gauge on where i am in the language. 17:15:21 <_travis_> i wont be able to contribute until i start actually working on projects, which i wont be doing until i finish PCL :\ 17:17:44 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-sgmqzwkrjalfvbgw] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 17:18:23 wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-110.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:06 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 17:20:25 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:20:44 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:31 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 17:21:39 kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:43 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.74.117.95] has joined #lisp 17:21:44 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.74.117.95] has quit [Changing host] 17:21:44 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 17:22:24 waaahahaha 17:22:33 double buffering gives you puzzle games! 17:23:20 beirc with double-buffering is a nogo! 17:24:11 brb 17:24:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.101] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.52.101] has quit [Changing host] 17:24:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:24:58 everytime i enter something of a sentence on beirc my background for the server pane gets totally black....until i move the mouse over it and then some regions recover, i should just disable double-buffering again.... 17:25:00 meh 17:25:02 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 17:25:39 The Naggum archive is gold, I've read it all, and it was definitely not a waste of time. 17:27:44 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:55 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:29:13 <_travis_> pavelpenev: yeah thats what i found myself reading too :) 17:29:39 <_travis_> unfortunately i'm at 'work' so i can only spend so much time on it. will have to get back to it later 17:29:46 Is number less specific that the list? 17:30:21 Lol, somebody stole my nick. 17:30:43 _travis_: being an unemployed student who lives with his dad has its perks :) 17:31:04 real-hitecnology: Look up the precedence list in the hyperspec. Number is not related to list. 17:31:16 ThomasH: OK, thx. 17:32:04 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:24 <_travis_> yes, yes it does :) 17:33:41 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:24 -!- emit [~emit@unaffiliated/emit] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:48 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:04 -!- ngz [~user@245.12.99.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:36:41 The fact that I have just a year of school where I have the time to read and learn what I want until I have to go into the "real world" depresses me a bit. I'm making the most of the time I have left, after that It's junior java developer time :( 17:37:20 Well, find a way to earn enough money without taking up too much time. 17:37:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@50-77-184-57-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:37:47 Like, write a program to work for you, or set up a company and have workers to work for you. 17:37:51 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:38:04 Seems that the later would be easier. 17:38:31 Find a job that rewards initiative. (Easier said than done, of course :-) 17:38:33 Start a couple of companies (anything, it's just to earn the money). And be an amateur programmer. 17:38:58 ThomasH: yes, much easier said than done. The only solution is to be your own boss. 17:39:09 pjb, and starting a company costs nothing, is that correct? 17:39:38 bjorkintosh: well, there are ways to bootstrap a company. You need to find paying customers. 17:39:46 pavelpenev, it's not that bad, to be honest. you'll likely be surrounded by people just like you. 17:39:52 bjorkintosh: ie. not the Internet start up way. 17:39:54 pjb, yes. there-in lies the rub. 17:40:03 it is not impossible, but it is hard. 17:40:13 and it usually takes considerable resources. 17:40:16 Kickstarter! -> http://www.kickstarter.com/ 17:40:19 pjb: thats the plan, but I'm a realist, no matter what i do, i won't be able to do only lisp in the beginning. 17:40:43 at best i could get away with using python 17:40:44 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nyeffxxmphczqaei] has joined #lisp 17:41:19 pavelpenev: yes, you need to invest some time on setting up your money making company. It can be anything, eg. a cleaning company, a restaurant, a automatic food or beverage dispenser company, anything. 17:41:28 ThomasH, yeah. how's that lisp machine kickstarter working out for you, huh? :D 17:41:41 Just something you can easily hire cheap worker to do the job and that gives some profit for you. 17:41:50 bjorkintosh: I think you have me confused with someone else. 17:42:01 ThomasH, no, i do not. it's a hint. 17:42:07 17:42:19 get it? lisp machine kickstarter 17:42:22 :D 17:42:40 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nyeffxxmphczqaei] has quit [Client Quit] 17:43:40 Huh, is there's something like OR for defmethod to specify more than one type in the same method or I need to write two different methods? 17:43:43 bjorkintosh: I don't have the skills to create a lisp machine. :-) (Not kidding, I don't) 17:44:12 real-hitecnology: That does not exist, although there is a Masters thesis out there that does it. 17:44:21 yeah? few people were born with a lithp. 17:44:38 ThomasH: OK. 17:44:46 but you have learnt, SomasH how you have learnt! 17:45:46 real-hitecnology: ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/2001/AITR-2001-006.pdf 17:46:00 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-029-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:52 ThomasH: Oh, it seems interesting. Thanks a lot. 17:47:23 One Idea I had was to write a bunch of tools in lisp to help me do Django sites. 17:48:01 and then do those for pay 17:48:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.28.211] has joined #lisp 17:48:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.28.211] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:48:14 <_travis_> pavelpenev: i hated junior development, which is why i went into a sys admin role in IT. 17:48:16 pavelpenev: Lol, I had the same idea but for objc+iphone. 17:48:22 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 17:48:25 pavelpenev, Just Do It (tm) 17:48:44 <_travis_> pavelpenev: i'm now looking at going for a graduate degree because i took an intro to AI course as a senior and fell back in love with programming :) 17:48:57 _travis_: ... that doesn't sounds sane 17:48:59 <_travis_> specifically lisp... 17:49:11 _travis_: unless you grab a position without lusers 17:49:17 Well, the idea came from Erik Naggum, who used emacs lisp to write C++ 17:49:41 bjorkintosh: There's a nice little . 17:50:36 hahaha 17:50:46 how did you type that in? 17:51:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.105.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:07 <_travis_> p_l|home: it's worked out quite nicely actually 17:51:14 bjorkintosh: I have typography layout. 17:51:27 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.105.76] has joined #lisp 17:51:34 <_travis_> p_l|home: the ability to work on a grad degree is yet to be seen. i'm meeting with my advisor on the 10th to discuss the program. 17:51:54 _travis_: I meant going into sysadmining 17:52:01 <_travis_> p_l|home 17:52:10 <_travis_> p_l|home: yeah i know. thats the part that has worked out nicely 17:52:43 bjorkintosh: Google Ilya Birman's typography layout. I use this one. 17:52:58 <_travis_> p_l|home: i took a promotion sideways back in 2008 when the economy took a dumb and IT needed more help then development. i don't mind sysadmin, but it's not what i really want to do. if the grad degree doesn't work out it's a nice fallback option. 17:53:00 real-hitecnology, on which OS? 17:53:15 <_travis_> took a dump* 17:53:24 bjorkintosh: I'm on OSX but there's a Windows version of it. 17:53:33 ubuntu, sir. 17:54:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:54:12 _travis_: well, I like both, though modern sysadmining is getting meshed more with programming 17:54:15 bjorkintosh: huh. 17:54:28 real-hitecnology: is there one for a real OS? 17:54:45 hugod [~user@69.157.169.36] has joined #lisp 17:54:52 real-hitecnology, i don't use windows. 17:55:12 pavelpenev: No there isn't this layout for linux. And I don't know good layouts for linux. 17:55:14 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:33 bjorkintosh: Me too. I hate it a little. 17:55:37 i think the international layout is all i need. i had it configured earlier. 17:56:01 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 i don't hate it so much. i just don't like it. 17:56:27 pavelpenev: learn about compose keys, .xcompose, and making layouts for X11 :) 17:57:22 p_l|home: I've dug a little into X11's keyboard handling when i wanted to put my parens in a sane place 17:57:26 bjorkintosh: Anyway, you can configure something like typing unicode ids. 17:58:21 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-gjmgqxiyputqrafj] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 1 AM on clock. Goodbye everyone. \o 18:00:14 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00:44 pavelpenev, i used setxkbmap us intl to modify mine. 18:00:52 it works nicely. 18:01:10 uses the second 'alt' key. 18:01:59 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:43 I've used xmodmap to make my computer completely unusable by anyone except me :) 18:03:07 xmodmap + stumpwm 18:03:12 it is magical. 18:03:16 the look on their faces. 18:03:22 couple with the fact that I use dvorak... 18:04:32 and emacs. 18:04:57 and a blank keyboard :-) 18:05:03 and conkeror :) 18:05:26 and vimperator/pentadactyl before that 18:05:32 bjorkintosh: a nice case of magical use - make yourself a single-handed keyboard :) 18:05:44 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.166.237] has joined #lisp 18:06:24 <_travis_> that would hurt my ehad 18:06:25 <_travis_> head* 18:06:45 heheh. i like my 10 finger layout though. 18:07:49 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-138.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:49 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-138.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:50 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:08:31 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 18:08:54 bitonic [~user@94.116.5.246] has joined #lisp 18:09:30 -!- wws [wws@clozure-B4194091.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:09:44 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:09:45 standard qwerty is single-handed for the man with enough fingers... 18:10:26 -!- wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-110.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:23 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:43 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:13:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.26] has joined #lisp 18:13:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.26] has quit [Changing host] 18:13:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:13:27 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.166.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:13:40 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.112] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-162.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1] 18:13:56 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:15:40 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:15:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:16:08 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:19:13 neomage [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:56 -!- real-hitecnology [~hitecnolo@46.233.202.49] has quit [Quit: real-hitecnology] 18:23:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:06 -!- bitonic [~user@94.116.5.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:27:08 -!- neomage [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:36 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:12 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-227-195.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:29:32 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.202.49] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 by single-handed, I meant mod the keyboard to mirror itself upon hitting apropriate modifier key 18:30:10 so that you can reach every key with single hand 18:31:05 <_travis_> p_l|home: yeah i assumed thats what you meant. i'd get a headache trying to map two different keys to the same fingure like that :) i'm sure others would love it, but it'd make me lose my mind :o 18:31:28 <_travis_> it'd actually be more than 2 different keys per fingure, but you get what i mean 18:31:34 Vicfred [~Grothendi@201.102.50.106] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 _travis_: there was an example on xkcd blog, I think, and you can buy commercial keyboard with that feature :) 18:32:02 There are more efficient ways to enter text with a single hand. Predictive input for example. 18:32:53 <_travis_> the blackberry's QnX predictive input is pretty impressive 18:33:05 <_travis_> but thats an onscreen keyboard :\ 18:33:09 katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-144-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:33:27 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-144-51.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 18:34:00 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.202.49] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:20 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.202.49] has joined #lisp 18:36:19 Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:25 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:37:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-80.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 18:37:59 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:38:50 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:51 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.202.49] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:52 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:21 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:25 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.225] has joined #lisp 18:41:38 <_travis_> so i'm running on debian using emacs with sbcl and slime. are there any emacs extensions i should get? i really like my setup now, and have no complaints. so i'm not looking for anything radical but little things that help/make life easier are always appreicated :) 18:42:13 _travis_: Emacs starter kit has interesting framework 18:42:17 also, look into paredit 18:42:20 (and org-mode) 18:42:32 i've been using starter kit 18:42:38 it's a nice setup. 18:42:38 _travis_: paredit 18:43:00 another vote for paredit 18:43:02 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 18:43:14 <_travis_> i've heard of paredit - my understanding is it helps with moving s expressions around? 18:43:31 <_travis_> among other things, but i think that was the more significant ability(?) 18:43:38 yes. 18:44:05 With it, you basically forget parentheses. 18:44:18 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:44:30 <_travis_> erm. id on't have emacs 24. guess i should get that first LOL 18:44:45 I'm still with emacs-23. 18:46:01 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:47 *p_l|home* has 24.1... he thinks 18:46:57 *Guthur* Is sitting in Heathrow doing some CL 18:47:03 GNU Emacs 24.1.50.2 18:47:21 <_travis_> i wonder why 24 is not in the debian software library :)( 18:47:22 Wonder if I could picked up for weapons smuggling 18:47:22 <_travis_> :( 18:47:23 hehe 18:47:27 Guthur: heh. Heathrow is one of london airports I didn't visit 18:47:41 p_l|home: It's a bit of a monster 18:48:15 Guthur: I fell asleep at Luton having simulator of Scotland's railway signaling system on screen... 18:48:30 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.237] has joined #lisp 18:48:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.237] has quit [Changing host] 18:48:31 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:48:36 there were soldiers with machine guns around 18:48:52 I was rather happy about xscreensaver that day :) 18:49:07 they're all off at the olympics today, hehe 18:50:29 did they bring the cruiser back to Thames? :) 18:51:37 Though I really didn't like the idea about gun emplacements on houses. Bad idea. 18:51:37 Didn't here about that 18:51:51 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:51:56 they placed SAMs on them 18:52:05 the whole idea is pointless 18:52:07 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-221-59.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:08 Guthur: for some time since 2001 there was a missile cruiser docked at Thames at combat readiness 18:52:28 HMS Dragon was in Belfast recently but that was a peaceful visit 18:52:46 Guthur: not necessarily pointless... but ugly in terms of whether the area is a valid military target 18:53:38 the latest short-range SAMs are great against small targets, but... 18:54:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.26] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.26] has quit [Changing host] 18:54:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:09 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.225] has joined #lisp 18:57:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:45 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:57:55 umm keyboard froze 18:58:07 p_l|home: point is prevention is a better option 18:58:13 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 shooting down civilian airlines ain't good 18:58:45 and it will hardly act as a deterrent 18:58:56 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 19:00:06 _travis_, you can install 24 pretty easily with apt. 19:00:13 Guthur: long-term planning helps. Not overthrowing democratic governments because oil companies came crying about getting kicked out helps even better 19:00:14 <_travis_> :) 19:00:22 <_travis_> i'm trying. i'm trying not to ask for help right now rofls. 19:00:34 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:00:35 <_travis_> i'm using http://emacs.naquadah.org/ 19:00:59 https://launchpad.net/~cassou/+archive/emacs 19:01:52 p_l|home: not really just the oil companies, it is documented as governmental policy, topic for another channel i daresay though 19:02:07 <_travis_> ok, let me undo what i did for the other instructions and give that a try. thanks bjorkintosh 19:02:39 np 19:05:55 <_travis_> bjorkintosh: thats for ubuntu :( 19:09:32 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:11:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:12:07 hmmmmm 19:12:21 bitonic [~user@2.25.215.29] has joined #lisp 19:12:25 climplayer opens a frame, but all the folders i click are empty..... 19:12:29 lol 19:12:50 and i think i don't see the menu either..... 19:14:03 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:33 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:15:35 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-50-133-193-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 19:15:56 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:59 _travis_, it should sorta work. 19:16:22 <_travis_> well, my understanding is that mixing ubuntu packages with debian can cause problems :o 19:16:28 <_travis_> even though they are very similar 19:16:42 <_travis_> i'm not a linux expert though :o 19:18:18 <_travis_> i'm using this to manually install http://packages.debian.org/sid/emacs24 19:18:20 <_travis_> i think it'll work 19:19:47 _travis_: What version of Debian are you currently using? squeeze? 19:20:51 <_travis_> I think so but I'm not entirely sure how to verify that :o 19:20:53 <_travis_> let me look 19:20:59 You can probably just add something like "deb http://ftp.uk.debian.org/debian/ testing main" to your /etc/apt/sources.list then manually choose what you want. 19:21:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/130726 why is that error here ? 19:21:11 _travis_: What package manager are you using 19:21:13 ? 19:21:27 <_travis_> apt-get ? 19:21:36 <_travis_> i'm a linux novice so pardon my ignorance to your questions :) 19:21:52 Ah, have you got aptitude installed? If so, it's a lot easier to work out what's happening. 19:22:16 and which car is byte 156 corresponding to then ? 19:22:22 char* 19:22:39 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 19:22:40 <_travis_> let me check 19:22:44 and how can i move to byte 156 ? is that goto-char 156 ? 19:23:01 <_travis_> yes, i do have it installed 19:23:21 <_travis_> i have never used it before though :) 19:23:27 It's easier, don't worry! :-) 19:23:41 First add that line to your sources.list and then run aptitude 19:23:57 wbooze: you might want byte-to-position 19:23:57 Hit "/" to search (a bit like less or vi) and look for emacs. 19:24:00 _travis_, to find out what you're using, just more /etc/issue 19:24:04 ah 19:24:06 also uname is your friend. 19:24:36 i never touch aptitude. too hideous. 19:24:46 -!- Kron_ is now known as Kron 19:25:03 _travis_: Eek, sorry, I gave you the wrong line to add to your sources.list. 19:25:12 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-227-195.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:25:13 <_travis_> ok 19:25:23 You probably want something like "deb http://ftp.uk.debian.org/debian/ unstable main" 19:25:31 (I didn't realise that testing only has version 23) 19:25:32 In my experience with emacs24, it's easiest to just compile it. 19:25:55 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:26:00 <_travis_> rswarbrick: should i use the line from here: http://emacs.naquadah.org/ 19:26:01 Oladon_work: Well, I'm using the emacs-snapshot package from naquadah.org and it seems to Just Work. 19:26:03 Oladon_work: Thats what i did 19:26:16 rswarbrick: Heh, naquadah. 19:26:33 <_travis_> or should i use your unstable main line? 19:26:33 _travis_: That will install a version that gets updated every week or so. 19:26:51 The line I pasted will install a released version that probably won't get updated so often. 19:26:56 Both should probably work. 19:27:03 (er, either, that is) 19:27:10 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:45 Hmm, actually I'd use the one from naquadah.org (sorry for messing you around) 19:28:01 The right hand column has the correct incantation for debian stable (which is what you're running) 19:28:10 As such, there shouldn't be any problems with dependencies 19:28:41 -!- bitonic [~user@2.25.215.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:28:55 <_travis_> eyah 19:28:56 (and you just need the first of the two lines, unless you want to compile your own package) 19:29:00 Sorry! 19:29:02 <_travis_> i am using the right column now for emacs23 19:29:13 emacs23? 19:29:19 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:29:19 <_travis_> thats what I have installed currently 19:29:23 <_travis_> would like to get emacs24 :o 19:29:30 <_travis_> which i guess is still in the unstable package for debian 19:29:43 Ah, right. Isn't there an emacs-snapshot package available in your package manager? 19:29:53 I would have thought that "emacs23" is coming from the main debian repository 19:30:02 _travis_: try "aptitude search emacs" and see if there's an emacs24 19:30:16 From the naquadah.org site, it'll be emacs-snapshot, I think. 19:30:39 <_travis_> Oladon_work:i got nothing back :( 19:30:41 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:30:51 _travis_: hrm. What's in your sources.list? 19:31:07 <_travis_> #emacs24 - unstable from naquadah: 19:31:07 <_travis_> deb http://emacs.naquadah.org/ unstable/ 19:31:07 <_travis_> deb-src http://emacs.naquadah.org/ unstable/ 19:31:16 <_travis_> which i added 19:31:29 did you do an "apt-get update"? 19:31:29 <_travis_> then there are the defaults that come with debian 19:31:30 _travis_: Have you run aptitude update (or apt-get update) ? 19:31:31 <_travis_> and thats it 19:31:41 <_travis_> I believe so but le tme run it again just to be sure 19:32:11 <_travis_> oh hey 19:32:15 heh 19:32:17 _travis_: I'm surprised by the fact you get "nothing" running "aptitude search emacs". I get 59 packages listed and they can't all just be in unstable... 19:32:18 <_travis_> now i get results from aptitude search emacs-snapshot 19:32:23 Ahah! 19:32:24 :) 19:32:26 <_travis_> :) 19:32:29 Now you can apt-get install emacs-snapshot 19:32:56 <_travis_> wyhen i run that i get some errors :( last one is E: Broken Packages 19:33:13 _travis_: Paste it to paste.lisp.org? 19:33:20 <_travis_> k 19:34:24 <_travis_> sudo apt-get install emacs-snapshot 19:34:24 <_travis_> Reading package lists... Done 19:34:24 <_travis_> Building dependency tree 19:34:24 <_travis_> Reading state information... Done 19:34:24 <_travis_> Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have 19:34:24 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:34:32 lol 19:34:48 _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 <_travis_> i tried to past the link and it pasted the terminal session... 19:34:55 <_travis_> sorry about that 19:34:56 Wrong window, _travis_ :P 19:34:57 :-) 19:35:01 heh 19:35:06 _travis_: Pull up the gui by just running "aptitude" and you'll be able to fix the problems. 19:35:07 <_travis_> paste.lisp.org/display/130729 19:35:36 So, there will be packages displayed in red (you can jump to them by hitting "b"). 19:35:57 If you hit enter on one, it'll show you what it requires and why it didn't sort itself out. 19:36:28 Aptitude can sometimes also work out a solution: hit "," to scroll through them and "e" (I think) to look at what it'll do. 19:36:51 If you make a mistake, hit Ctrl-U to undo. To "commit the changes" by (un)installing things, hit "g" (twice) 19:37:11 *Oladon_work* notices that ^a a doesn't work in this window. 19:37:15 <_travis_> ah i see 19:37:24 <_travis_> so once i drill down to emacs-snapshot i see the red lines 19:37:26 Oladon_work: Not in xchat either :-) 19:37:28 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:39 Yep. Does aptitude suggest any solutions? 19:37:44 rswarbrick: imagine! screen hotkeys not working in Pidgin/xchat! 19:37:54 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:38:03 <_travis_> it says p 2:20120721-1 19:38:04 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:05 <_travis_> :o 19:38:50 ehu` [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:01 <_travis_> one says (UNSATISIFIED) the rest say (UNAVAILABLE) 19:39:09 Ah, that's more problematic. 19:39:11 <_travis_> libdbus-1-3 for example 19:39:14 <_travis_> is unavailable 19:39:48 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:39:50 That's weird. 19:39:50 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:39:51 Hmm 19:39:52 <_travis_> one second, i'll provide a screen shot 19:39:54 err 19:39:55 Ah!! 19:40:00 _travis_: could you pastie your whole sources.list? 19:40:05 _travis_: You used the left hand column, not the right hand one. 19:40:10 rswarbrick: did we decide he's on squeeze? 19:40:15 <_travis_> right 19:40:15 That's got the dependencies for people running debian unstable. 19:40:22 <_travis_> oh 19:40:24 You wanted the right hand one, like I said... 19:40:26 :-) 19:40:28 <_travis_> oh 19:40:30 <_travis_> wait 19:40:37 Sorry, I didn't spot it when you pasted into the channel. 19:40:43 <_travis_> i fundamentally misunderstood that page then... 19:40:55 "stable" and "unstable" refer to the debian version, not the emacs version 19:41:05 <_travis_> oh good lord... 19:41:30 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:41:33 In fact, both things there install the same version of emacs, which is basically a reasonably current snapshot of the development tree. 19:41:48 (I've been using it for years and it hasn't broken on me...) 19:41:53 rswarbrick: err, no 19:41:59 rswarbrick: they refer to the package version... 19:42:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:42:08 or rather, the package set 19:42:27 there's a set of "main" packages, sets of "testing" packages, etc 19:42:43 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:53 Oladon_work: "main" goes with "contrib", "non-free" etc. 19:42:55 _travis_: do you have a line like http://distro.ibiblio.org/debian/ squeeze main ? 19:43:01 "testing" goes with "stable", "unstable" etc. 19:43:04 rswarbrick: right... 19:43:10 "stable" on that page refers to Squeeze 19:43:17 "unstable" on that page refers to Sid 19:43:26 oh, you guys must be looking at a different page, sorry 19:43:32 http://emacs.naquadah.org/ 19:43:36 ah 19:43:37 <_travis_> sorry, here's what i have 19:43:39 :-) 19:44:03 <_travis_> deb http://emacs.naquadah.org/ unstable/ 19:44:03 <_travis_> deb-src http://emacs.naquadah.org/ unstable/ 19:44:08 <_travis_> wait 19:44:11 <_travis_> need to change that to stable :) 19:44:14 You want to remove the "un" :-) 19:44:21 And in fact, you don't need the second line 19:44:30 <_travis_> yeah for some reason i thought it refered to emacs, and that 23 was stable and 24 was unstable :\ 19:44:34 (it won't break anything, but it's just for downloading the source versions of the packages) 19:44:37 yeah, you don't want the source 19:45:02 _travis_: could you pb your complete sources.list? If you're missing packages, chances are you're missing one of the main sources 19:45:04 _travis_: Yeah, that makes sense - now you know! :-) The same naming convention works across all debian stuff. 19:45:14 <_travis_> i didn't realize you should run an apt-get update after updating your sources.list :\ 19:45:19 Oladon_work: No, it's because the package he tried to install was for unstable 19:45:24 ah 19:45:27 makes sense :P 19:45:30 _travis_: nodnod :) 19:45:50 <_travis_> boom. 19:45:51 <_travis_> working 19:45:52 <_travis_> installing now. 19:45:55 Yay! 19:46:01 <_travis_> helps if you do what you're supposed to :) 19:46:04 heh 19:46:13 Helps if it's obvious what you're supposed to do... :-) 19:46:19 <_travis_> i sincerely appreciate the help :) 19:46:23 Like /not/ trying to lock your screen session while you're in a *doze text document. 19:46:23 No problem! 19:46:38 <_travis_> i literally just started with debian... lisp on windows is a pain in the ass so i switched 19:46:46 _travis_: good for you! :) 19:46:49 debian is great. 19:46:51 heh 19:46:55 at least linux 19:47:24 <_travis_> so... it says it went through 19:47:25 I think I'll send Julian Danjou a message with a link to an archive of this conversation. It looks like he could make the naquadah website a bit easier to understand for the uninitiated 19:47:33 <_travis_> but i don't see emacs24 anywhere, still only emacs23 ? 19:47:38 _travis_: Try emacs-snapshot 19:47:52 <_travis_> oh hey 19:47:53 <_travis_> imagine that 19:47:59 <_travis_> it's the same as the package name :) 19:48:01 :P 19:48:03 /usr/bin/emacs will be a link pointing at /etc/alternatives/emacs, which might point at /usr/bin/emacs23 or /usr/bin/emacs-snapshot 19:48:27 You can do whereis emacs to see what executables there are, _travis_ 19:48:31 If you don't like the current choice, you can change it with update-alternatives (you'll need to look at the manpage; I always do) 19:48:56 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:48:59 <_travis_> got it. 19:49:01 <_travis_> thanks again! 19:49:03 np 19:49:19 <_travis_> boss just told me to go home early for the weekend. you guys enjoy yourselves this weekend. 19:49:22 nice 19:49:24 you too 19:49:58 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-98-244-123-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:52:27 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:16 tailgate_ [816e055b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.110.5.91] has joined #lisp 19:55:18 Oladon_work1 [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:23 stevejb` [~user@50.46.149.21] has joined #lisp 19:56:34 asvil [~asvil@178.121.18.80] has joined #lisp 19:56:46 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-92-24.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:49 -!- Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:58:46 -!- Oladon_work1 is now known as Oladon_work 19:59:22 -!- stevejb [~user@50.46.149.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:52 Depending on the job, if I was on IRC at work and the boss told me to go home early, I might be a little concerned. 20:00:01 cmake 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[~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:28 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:09:00 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:27 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:10:22 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 21:14:10 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 21:17:51 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:17:52 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 21:17:52 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:19:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.105.76] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:20:00 kanedank [~k@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:22 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:20:53 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 21:20:54 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 what's the best (full featured/well documented) html generation library? 21:22:17 kanedank: I rather like yaclml 21:22:32 kanedank: cl-who is very popular. i use xhtmlgen. 21:23:05 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:23:34 I liked yaclml a lot, but I ended up switching to html-template 21:24:06 also, I don't know who runs cliki, but when I search "html" on the site it returns an empty page, so I'm just using google atm 21:25:15 pkhuong: ping 21:26:03 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:25 wait, edi weitz wrote both html-template and cl-who? why two? 21:28:57 kanedank: one is for templating, theother for generating html from lisp 21:30:18 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 21:30:34 sykopomp: pong, thanks a lot! 21:31:17 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:22 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:44 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:33:19 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:32 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:36 so I think I want to use an html generator. do any stand out for/lack of unicode support? 21:35:46 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.38.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:10 kanedank: no. that is a feature of the lisp, not really one of the generator. 21:36:11 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:49 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:54 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 21:40:04 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:58 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:43:30 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 21:45:09 kanedank: what H4ns said unless you want to generate «character entities&rqauo; for some bizarre reason 21:46:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:26 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:51:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:52:27 -!- _travis_ [~nonya@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:54:19 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:37 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-029-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:08 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 22:02:32 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:02:40 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 22:02:44 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:06:20 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:18 \o/ ccl runs on armv6 (raspi) http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2012-July/013677.html 22:09:11 uh, can someone help me understand what happened when I installed xhtmlgen? it looks like a pure cl package, going by the package def: https://github.com/hanshuebner/xhtmlgen/blob/master/package.lisp but when I quickloaded it installed a bunch of other stuff: https://gist.github.com/3190704 22:10:01 -!- kanru [~kanru@2620:101:8003:200:8ea9:82ff:fe77:2e8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:14 keltvek: see the asd file 22:10:20 kanedank: 22:10:23 i mean 22:11:11 kanedank: it installed a bunch of other supporting libraries 22:11:26 such as closure-common, which is where all that runes stuff came from. 22:12:07 Anyone tried QL Closer-MOP with ECL HEAD? I get an error compiling FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS. 22:12:10 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.112] has joined #lisp 22:12:22 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cl-1290.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:12:36 kanedank: xhtmlgen depends on cxml. that dependency is only recorded in the xhtmlgen.asd file, not in package.lisp 22:15:05 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:15:39 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-119-52.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:48 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-89-254.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:18:04 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 22:18:46 ah, stupid me. thanks for pointing that out! 22:19:45 kanru [~kanru@2620:101:8003:200:8ea9:82ff:fe77:2e8e] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 varjagg [u4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqdihypwjqfzebqx] has joined #lisp 22:26:34 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:57 snearch [~snearch@g225076092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:34:49 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-53-184.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:05 hey, I'm looking at the readme for cl-html-parse ( https://gist.github.com/3190774 ) and I can't figure out the 2nd example where it says (html-parse:parse-html ). What does mean? I tried just passing a string to the file, but that didn't work. 22:35:45 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:02 probably wants a file stream? 22:37:33 kanedank: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/phtml.htm 22:40:33 Is there a functional version of rotatef? 22:41:21 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@209.20.72.181] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:41:30 Oladon_work: explain? 22:42:00 Bike: a version that doesn't rely on side-effects, instead returning the new list 22:42:56 bike: thanks! are there any real differences between phtml and cl-html-parse? the only one that seems to matter atm is that phtml isn't on quicklisp 22:43:37 Oladon_work: not that I know of. (append (rest list) (list (first list)))? 22:44:00 Bike: well, I'm actually looking for rotatef's swap functionality 22:44:18 kanedank: i've never heard of either before, google just told me cl-html-parse is a ql version of Franz's phtml. 22:44:34 Oladon_work: not sure I understand. 22:45:07 Oladon_work: How are you going to do that functionally? Can you give an example? 22:45:16 Bike: I'm using (rotatef a b) to swap two items, but I'd like it to be functional 22:45:34 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 22:45:38 Oladon_work: So you don't actually want to change the values, but just return (list b a)? 22:45:42 right 22:45:47 well 22:45:59 The list could be longer than just b a 22:46:00 but yeah 22:46:21 so what's wrong with what I said? 22:46:21 (defun frotatef (&rest values) (append (rest values) (list (first values)))) 22:46:29 ... 22:46:32 I'm not trying to rotate it 22:46:35 Bike: Oh, heh  I just gave your same thing. 22:46:37 rotatef with two arguments swaps the two 22:47:01 Oladon_work: Wait, do you want REVERSE? 22:47:07 Could you give a usage of this? So far this makes about as much sense to me as "I want a functional version of SETF" 22:47:13 heh 22:47:23 Bike: Agreed. I understand less each step of the way. 22:47:27 Oladon_work: Give an example. 22:47:57 I want (somefunc 2 4 '(1 2 3 4 5)) to return '(1 4 3 2 5) 22:48:18 Exactly the way rotatef works, except functional, with the return value being a new list, not modifying the input 22:48:21 Oladon_work: That is nothing like rotatef  22:48:31 Yeah it is. 22:48:38 (somefunc 2 3 4 '(7 8 9 10 11)) => (7 10 8 9 11), yes? 22:49:17 err 22:49:18 no 22:49:28 (rotatef (car newlist) (nth newlist 4) newlist) 22:49:34 would swap the first and fourth elements of newlist 22:49:39 well, first and fifth 22:50:26 Oladon_work: you could just copy-list the list first 22:50:47 jasom: that's about where I am, just figured there might actually exist a functional version 22:51:07 That sets (car newlist) to be (nth newlist 4), (nth newlist 4) to be newlist, and newlist to be (car newlist), doesn't it 22:51:18 Bike: no 22:51:42 It certainly doesn't do what you said, I just tried it and got a type error. 22:51:42 gotta go, back later. 22:52:29 swap the args to nth, Bike -- I always do that 22:52:31 :P 22:53:03 -!- Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:16 I have no idea what just happened. 22:54:56 Bike: Yes, it does what you said it should. 22:55:16 Bike: But since newlist is no longer a list afterward, checking CAR and NTH aren't going to do you any good. 22:56:09 Oladon's idea of ROTATEF is  unique. 22:56:11 right. 22:57:15 Now, if he had left the actual list argument off, it would have done what he wanted. 22:57:16 Maybe he just wants something that acts like (let ((list (copy-list list))) (rotatef (nth x list) (nth y list)) list) 22:58:01 -!- TimKack [~user@d115007.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:02 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.168] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:01:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:42 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:03:58 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:05:02 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:49 -!- Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:11:17 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225076092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:11:44 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-221-59.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:32 Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:46 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good night] 23:15:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:16:14 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:19:13 -!- chturne [~chturne@host86-148-233-236.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:22:10 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:24:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-155-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:59 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:36:42 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:37 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:45:44 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:48 blar1 [~corey@cpe-75-187-151-213.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:07 is anyone here familiar with using the clisp interpreter? i've just installed it in cygwin and i'm having some issues with (load "file") in the REPL 23:52:40 Oladon [~Oladon@c-67-172-158-192.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:58 elaborate? 23:53:18 k, so i've invoked clisp from within the directory where my file exists 23:53:29 i'm not sure which directory the interpreter thinks it's in tho 23:54:10 when i call (load "filename") i get an error: "a file with name {filename} does not exist" 23:54:20 blar1: try (ext:cd) 23:54:34 will that return the current working directory? 23:54:39 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.139.33] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:54:49 blar1: Or *default-pathname-defaults* 23:55:01 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:55:08 ah ha; (ext:cd) does return the directory in which i saved my file 23:55:10 hm 23:55:30 oh this is embarrassing 23:55:31 blar1: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/dir-func.html documentation is your friend! 23:55:37 ah ha! 23:55:49 i've been trying to google around and hadn't found any good docs yet 23:55:53 thx Bike 23:56:04 Hm. actually *default-pathname-defaults* is empty in clisp here 23:56:08 of course, stupid user error: i didn't actually put the file where i thought 23:56:09 argh 23:57:29 all is well now; thx folks - knowing how to determine the current working directory will be most handy 23:59:32 -!- echo-area [~user@114.254.102.184] has quit [Quit: bbl] 23:59:43 -!- blar1 [~corey@cpe-75-187-151-213.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp