00:00:14 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:00:20 lisptastic: My favorite web version of the ANSI standard is the one formatted by Franz: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/9.0/ansicl/ansicl.htm 00:00:58 Guthur: it just seems odd to me. I mean, C's more well-known and it has plenty of different implementations 00:01:17 gcc icc clang zeta-c 00:01:17 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 00:01:18 brown`: thanks this looks helpful 00:01:25 Bike: I know it totally makes sense now to me but then... 00:01:44 even ch, cint. 00:01:54 Bike: one possible explanation is that I was pretty much a Windows guy then, so the only compiler I used was MSVC 00:02:13 MingC 00:02:15 what kinds of things have you guys done with common lisp? 00:03:00 lisptastic: what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 is implemented in Common Lisp. 00:04:19 ITA's (bought by Google) flight search engire is implemented in Common Lisp. The latest GUI is here: http://www.google.com/flights/ 00:05:15 lisptastic: you may also ask what they do on #lispgames 00:05:31 oh ok 00:05:40 A good book about Common Lisp is here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:06:03 It has many good programming examples. 00:06:56 lisptastic: all sort of stuff! much of it being things related to the web. but lisp isn't limited to that. 00:07:06 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:11 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 00:07:35 madnificent: really the web? I haven't heard much about lisp on the web 00:07:39 lisptastic: if you have a java (or similar) background, then Practical Common Lisp (dubbed the PCL) is a very good book! 00:08:07 oh ok 00:08:12 lisptastic: the syntax is perfect! (html (head (title "foo")) (body (h1 :class "bang" "my title") (p "some content"))) shorter than xml! 00:08:27 lisptastic: http://want.ogamita.org is written in Common Lisp. 00:08:40 yes the parentheses are quite intimidating D: 00:08:49 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:09:02 There are less parentheses in lisp than in C or C++. 00:09:23 When you write an equivalent program, and count {} [] and <> in C++. 00:09:30 lisptastic: contrary to how it's commonly explained, i like to look at them as groupings. whenever you need to group/enclose something because it may contain multiple elements, you put parens around it. that might help reading it. so (head ...) then ... is whatever should be inside the head tag. 00:10:02 oh ok 00:10:49 madnificent: Hey that's a very nice explanation. Got me thinking of how people seem to like something like XML, but sexps are just WEIRD. 00:11:32 schmx: i doubt they really like it. i think it's more "i know this and i don't want to learn something new". just a hunch though. 00:12:06 madnificent: Probably. 00:14:10 pjb: the fact that there are can be less parens in some lisp source than in the corresponding c source may be helpful, but it doesn't remove the feeling of (apparently) many people: they are intimidated by the parens, regardless of the amount. i think it is the lack of other structures which scares them off, even though they mention the parens as the issue. my guess is that they pinpoint that fact, because it's the closes 00:14:10 to their problem: a seemingly impossibly simple syntax. 00:14:18 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:14:34 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.189.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:19 findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:45 Bike: with the exception of javascript, most popular languages either don't have a spec, or have one widely used implementation. The reason i didn't suffer the same confusion was probably because my first encounter with C++ was with the borland environment(i miss that soothing blue color :), and the second time was with MS visual shitty-o. But these days if you learn to program on windows its all VS, or GCC on windows. you don't 00:15:45 really learn about ironpython and jython unless you advance enough to know what an implementation is, and javascript is just the browser, you don't think of it that way. 00:16:04 bizarre. 00:16:42 it was more that there have been two or three people in the last few days asking what a standard is. just an idle observation 00:17:30 Students come in waves. 00:17:49 yeah, so I was just wondering where this one came from. 00:19:13 is there some sort of complete noobs faq? I think there was one. if it doesn't include this question it might have to be revised. 00:19:40 let me see if i can find it. 00:20:10 pavelpenev: http://cliki.net/ has all the answers. 00:20:59 pjb: something more digestible than a whole wiki for a noob is what i had in mind. and http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.txt seems to talk about implementations at the very beginning :) 00:22:02 But still it doesn't seem to mention *what* an implementation is. 00:22:39 This is not specific to Common Lisp. What should we define what a language or what a dog is? 00:23:22 s/What/Why/ 00:23:38 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:23:40 pjb: i agree in principal, but still, if new comers ask a question frequently, perhaps its a good idea to include it in a list of frequent questions :) perhaps a different one than the above. 00:25:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 00:25:23 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:25:23 pavelpenev: no. 00:25:55 pavelpenev: I agree, I'd like to write an introduction to programming with common lisp for children, but so far all CL material targets university level, not preschool. 00:26:22 But you're right, we should write more books and tutorials to catch them young. 00:26:56 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:27:20 pjb: the lack of such material is one of the reasons i still recommend python to people who don't know anything. 00:28:02 at least some python books tell you what a command line is, didn't we have a person who didn't know how to use one recently? 00:28:48 But for children, writing a book is not enough, you also have to develop an environment, libraries, examples, etc. And you want to attract them with graphics, animations, etc. 00:28:57 See Scratch, Alice, etc. 00:29:29 pjb: i was introduced to programming with logo, so i know :) I cursed the day logo was replaced by pascal by my teacher. 00:29:38 pavelpenev: logo! 00:29:42 <3 00:30:00 the first things i did when i learned python was play around with its turtle module :) 00:30:19 pjb: actually, why make it more complex than that: build the equivalent of logo and give them the lisp language to base themselves on. 00:31:28 also, i've always looked at learning programming languages as gaining levels in that language. in the sense that i've often had something like "now if i'd know how to use classes in lisp, then that would be a step up". perhaps a book could exploit that and allow children to level up. 00:31:58 I don't know much about children, but i spent a lot of time thinking about teaching to teenagers, and that a *completely* different story. 00:32:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:32:42 I was a teenager autodidact in programming, so I have a hard time understanding normal teenagers 00:33:15 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx60-2a-226.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:33:17 pjb: Me too, but normal teenagers don't pick up programming on their own. 00:33:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@fanzine.igalia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:33:30 (usually) 00:34:02 one can exploit the fact that these kids are at least more curious than average 00:34:54 my best teachers let me struggle for a while before they give me a solution 00:36:20 as for teaching programming in a normal classroom, that almost convinced me NOT to study CS, it sure as hell ruined math for me, i was lucky enough to have a good history teacher, so that was fun, but also the exception 00:36:42 so i'm skeptical 00:37:27 -!- fredrik_ [~fredrik@vpn14.hotsplots.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:53 schmx: I asked a guy at work, who does not come from a computer science background and is nearly as familiar with XML as SEXP, and he preferred the <> 00:38:17 poor, unfortunate souls 00:38:23 it's odd but () does seem to put people off more than other delimiters 00:38:45 I say we go with Phosphorous' delimiters. They've got the right idea. 00:39:10 Guthur: Erik Naggum talks about that in his articles, its because of operator precedence, parens mean pain. 00:39:42 Guthur: well, you always can write a reader macro and lt, le, gt, ge aliases. 00:39:51 ice [~ice@222.130.133.243] has joined #lisp 00:40:07 {if {le 2 x} {print "Fizz"} {print "Buzz"}} 00:40:45 and since i have my own set of painful subconscious associations in my head, {} and <> mean pain to me :) 00:41:01 *maxm* pretty much skipped math in high-school, taking all exams impromptu on pure cramming, now regretting it 00:41:11 Guthur: and an emacs mode to convert automatically upon load/save. 00:41:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:41:45 zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-86-6-134.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:00 pjb: or people could just overcome their irrational parenthesis aversion, hehe 00:42:22 Technology shoudl adapt to people, not people to technology :-) 00:42:26 Guthur: no, then I'll have to do the same with {} and <> :) 00:43:19 parenthesis is actually serious problem, I crashed my stumpwm, and had to fix it from linux console using vim, and its a torture to edit lisp once you get used to paredit, even with vim 00:43:30 was there not something on planet.lisp about the reader macro option 00:43:49 I thought Didier tried it and ran into problems 00:44:27 -!- lisptastic [b89139e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.57.226] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:44:36 fredrik_ [~fredrik@vpn8.hotsplots.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:12 -!- fredrik_ [~fredrik@vpn8.hotsplots.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:24 http://www.didierverna.com/sciblog/index.php?post/2012/05/14/Monday-Troll%3A-the-syntax-extension-myth 00:45:44 maxm: is there a reason you couldn't just run emacs in the terminal?... 00:45:46 Guthur: but that's just a troll. 00:45:53 emacs -nw ~/.stumpwmrc 00:45:54 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:46:00 It's actually trivial easy enough to do: just use my lisp reader :-) 00:46:09 '{{a . b} {c . d}} 00:46:26 I remember some did subsequently post a solution 00:46:28 sykopomp: I have my color theme setup with 256 colors, so it looks way weird on linux console 00:46:36 Now you're right, even with my lisp reader, the function needed to do it is a private function not exported. I will have to work on it. 00:46:39 s/some/someone 00:46:49 ah. I've wondered how to deal with emacs in a terminal. My colors are screwy, too. 00:46:55 I'm using real linux console maybe once a year, so never fixed it 00:46:59 Guthur: read-delimited-list doesn't read dotted lists. 00:47:34 maxm: we could send a patch to bash so that it can edit more easily parenthesized command lines. 00:47:57 well there is already esc v in set -o vi shells 00:48:15 which edits cmdline in the $EDITOR 00:49:35 set -o emacsclient doesn't work. 00:51:09 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:08 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:44 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129027068.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:56:32 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:33 does format have any directives to receive (values ...) 00:57:46 ...extracting individual values 00:58:31 just use multiple-value-list, perhaps? 00:58:55 I don't think it can consume multiple (values ) 00:59:09 findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 antoszka: yep, that was my first idea, but I was curious whether format had something 01:02:33 It can as long as you use multiple-value-list 01:03:18 or multiple-value-call 01:04:13 couldn't such a thing be implemented easily? some syntax to tell format that one of its arguments could return multiple values we care about, and to handle it. 01:04:42 pavelpenev: sure, as long as it uses multiple-value-list or multiple-value-call. 01:04:57 format is a function. 01:05:16 tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.217] has joined #lisp 01:05:17 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 01:05:18 why did i think it was a macro? oh well. 01:05:34 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:05:39 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:56 so to implement it, i'd have to shadow format and write a macro? 01:06:42 or just give it a silly name like multiple-value-format :) 01:07:04 I don't think it would make much sense having m-v-* at hand. 01:07:06 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:11 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 01:07:28 Yes. (mvformat nil "~M ~A" (truncate 10 3) "Ah!") --> "3 1 Ah!" 01:07:38 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:10 The macro would parse the string, notice ~M and generate: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~} ~A" (multiple-value-list (truncate 10 3)) "Ah!") 01:08:44 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:06 thats what i had in mind 01:09:09 pavelpenev: the point here is that multiple-values are not first class objects in CL> 01:09:29 You cannot bind multiple-values to a variable, you cannot pass them as argument, etc. 01:09:55 pjb: unless you cheat with macros i guess. 01:10:23 yes, with macros you can do whatever you want. 01:11:38 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:44 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:04 even if they were first class, how much of a benefit would that be? Clojure uses vecrors and all the callers have to destructure the result, instead of just using the first value as the default, so in a first class values lisp it would introduce a lot of complexity i assume? 01:14:16 None. People would complain about returning multiple multiple values etc. 01:14:20 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 01:14:39 pjb: :D 01:15:52 pavelpenev: multiple values in Lisp are more about the fact that the 'other' values are optional to deal with. They're also about optimising the case where you only care about the first one, since they won't even get returned in some implementations if no one tries to capture them. 01:16:21 sykopomp: "some" being? 01:16:39 I think CCL and SBCL both do this? 01:16:45 cool, i was wondering 01:17:17 well, the church of first class everything isn't going to like this :) 01:18:45 well, CL doesn't have that many first-class things anyway 01:19:09 continuations aren't first class, nor are environments, or even syntactic abstraction. 01:19:46 Indeed, for example, tags in tagbody are not first class. 01:20:03 (tagbody (let ((tag :end)) (go tag)) :end) doesn't work. 01:20:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:20:36 pjb, that seems like a decent extension to add. IIRC GCC has a similar extension. 01:21:08 I was just joking since i've seen a lot of people trow that word around and complain when something isn't first class 01:21:10 Then again, there might be trouble in determining if TAG is a tag or if it's a variable holding a tag. 01:21:24 You can just write something like that using catch/throw, no? 01:21:32 (defmacro dyntagbody ...) 01:22:25 In this case, it's foremost that the gotos in tagbody are computed at compilation time, not at run-time. But indeed, one could make a language extension. 01:23:32 sykopomp, I'd expect efficiency, since I rarely use tagbodies except in "mini-compilers". That's not to say catch/throw aren't efficient in any implementations, but the point of an extension would be efficiency, in my opinion. 01:24:02 Quadrescence: efficiency with dynamically-provided tags? How's that work? 01:25:00 well, you have a finite number of static tags in scope at any time, so you know the result must be any one of those tags. 01:25:10 anyone else have the issue of linedit not loading in current QL due to missing 'madeira-port' ? 01:26:09 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:26:12 sykopomp, you could just create something like a jump table. hmm, time to experiment! 01:28:09 -!- kanru [~kanru@2620:101:8003:300:8ea9:82ff:fe77:2e8e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:38 No, not going to experiment, nevermind. Anyway, I could see: (a) collect all of the tags in scope, (b) expand (DYNGO expr) to a CASE where each case is of the form (() (go )), and expr is passed to this CASE form. 01:28:54 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:23 sounds pretty easy to write 01:30:12 I would write it but I don't want to write a tagbody parser. It would probably be easy to embed in a compiler that already parses tagbodies though. 01:31:25 Quadrescence: find atoms, find lists, atoms are tags, then expand dyngo, no? 01:32:25 sykopomp: so in the case where you use all of the multiple values, would there be a difference in performance if you had just returned the values as a list and used destructuring-bind? 01:33:21 Dalek_Baldwin: depends. Your lisp implementation may optimize away the destructuring-bind. 01:33:28 sykopomp, how about nested tagbodies? 01:33:34 otherwise, yes, there could be a difference because VALUES doesn't necessarily cons. 01:33:57 sykopomp, you can GO from an inner TAGBODY to an outer one. 01:34:49 so you'd need to maintain some kind of stack when expanding. Sounds more like a codewalker job now. 01:35:14 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.150.237] has joined #lisp 01:35:54 skalawag [~user@c75-109-165-199.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:13 Quadrescence: but only static tagbodies, neh? 01:36:46 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-wwmpyzkkzxzpjdfi] has joined #lisp 01:36:52 sykopomp, (i'm under the assumption DYNGO would actually be an extension to TAGBODY and related forms that support tags, as opposed to only working in DYNTAGBODYs) 01:37:18 Quadrescence: how are you going to parse the tags if you can use TAGBODY? 01:38:04 sykopomp, what do you mean? If you're just going to use standard rules, just collect symbols. 01:38:39 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:43:10 To implement a dyntagbody, one difficulty is that go looks up into englobing tagbody forms. 01:43:26 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@2.80.241.104] has joined #lisp 01:43:30 (tagbody (tagbody (go :end-outer) :end-inner) :end-outer) 01:43:48 that is what I was getting at by nested tagbodies 01:43:58 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 01:45:22 allowing dynamic go without having some way to denote potential dynamic targets is a recipe for atrocious codegen. 01:46:07 Yes. My point is that you need a code walker to collect all the tags. 01:46:09 that, and control flow that's nearly impossible to reason about. 01:46:45 I was assuming all tags would be static. For a truly dynamic experience: (defstruct (label (:constructor label)) label-name), then DYNGO can go to either (or symbol label). 01:46:48 Well, since you can always translate that to function calls, and (funcall tag), this is not a good argument. 01:46:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-222-143.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:30 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@c9155843.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:47:47 And then in your DYNTAGBODY, have (label ), and *then* you have impossible to reason about flow. :) 01:48:37 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:40 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:52:29 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:53:24 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:39 -!- tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:01 Is there a way to determine if a method with a specific specialisation is defined? 01:58:17 find-method 01:58:47 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-162.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:56 ah indeed, how obvious, cheers 02:00:18 Well for specific specialization, ok. But it's not obvious to find a method for a given object, whatever the class it's defined for. You have to find the class precedence list for your object, and check for each of them, etc. 02:00:45 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:01:33 it's an eql specializer 02:01:34 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02:27 (defmethod make-socket (ctx (type (eql :rep))) ...) 02:02:35 ...for example 02:03:25 (find-method (function make-socket) nil '(t (eql :rep))) ; I'd say. 02:07:08 yep, that did the trick 02:08:12 -!- mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:26 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:11 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:16:34 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:53 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:19:22 Here's some of the busywork for DYNGO: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/9a91c1d42074/dyngo.lisp 02:23:13 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@c9155843.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:21 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 02:26:34 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:29:54 actual proper commenting: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/9361ecadd656/dyngo.lisp 02:33:32 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:45 <_travis_> quick question i hope someone can clear up for me. i'm read about the difference between reverse and nreverse. the idea being that nreverse is destructive and can be more efficient since there is no garbage collection 02:35:37 Since there's no consing, and therefore no future garbage collection, yes. 02:35:50 But notice that an implementation can define nreverse just as reverse. 02:35:54 <_travis_> hold on... i think i answered my own question in typing out the second part. 02:36:10 <_travis_> wait ok. so... 02:36:19 If the implementation does (setf (symbol-function 'nreverse) (symbol-function 'reverse)) it's conforming. 02:36:44 <_travis_> but if i set *list* to be (1 2 3 4 5) then call nreverse and set the returned list to *list2*, there is still *list* hanging out there pointing to a 1. isn't that a problem? it just leaves it out there, it never gets garbage collected. 02:37:12 If it does: (defun nreverse (seq ) (prog1 (reverse seq ) (map-into seq (constantly 42)))) ; it's conforming too. 02:37:49 _travis_: in lisp lists are chains of cons cells or the symbol NIL. 02:38:07 _travis_: so a variable bound to a list is actually bound to NIL or to the first CONS cell of the chain. 02:38:18 <_travis_> right 02:38:21 <_travis_> with you so far 02:38:30 _travis_: with nreverse, the question is whether the CAR and/or CDR of that first cons cell is modified by nreverse or not. 02:38:55 <_travis_> see and thats where I get confused. I'm obviously missing something here :) 02:39:03 <_travis_> *list* still points to the same cons cell 02:39:15 <_travis_> with car still equaling 1. and CDR now being nil 02:39:15 The naive algorith is to modify only the CDR slots, so that at the end of nreverse that old first cons cell contains (1 . NIL). That's why you should rebind the result of nreverse. 02:39:43 <_travis_> i'm sorry when you say rebind what do you mean? 02:39:45 But some implementations try to be newbie friendly, and keep the first and last cons cells of the list in the first and last position, exchanging the CAR instead. 02:39:52 (setf *list* (nreverse *list*)) 02:39:56 <_travis_> ok 02:40:04 <_travis_> so even though it's destructive you should still use it that way 02:40:16 In those implementations, (nreverse *list*) *list* "magically" returns the expected result. 02:40:25 Indeed, you must. 02:40:27 it's destructive in that it can reuse structure, but you're meant to use it just like reverse. 02:40:33 <_travis_> i see 02:40:45 <_travis_> that would indeed fix the problem of just leaving stuff hanging around :) 02:41:01 <_travis_> thank you very much, i appreciate your time. 02:41:11 the idea is that if you write an algorithm using REVERSE (the first step), you can possibly make it faster by adding an N 02:41:16 Notably, for functions like DELETE/REMOVE, the problem is that NIL is an empty list but cannot be changed into a CONS cell. NIL is immutable. Therefore you must always use the result of all those functions. 02:41:40 as long as you make sure the NREVERSE is the only consumer of the list in question, or any of its structure. 02:42:00 <_travis_> ok. i gotcha 02:42:33 <_travis_> i'm reading PCL right now, and I guess i glossed over/forgot the importance of rebinding it, hence my confusion. 02:42:38 *sykopomp* wonders if any lisp implementations replace REVERSE with NREVERSE internally if/when they detect it's safe. 02:43:28 sykopomp: I think it's hard to detect that 02:44:16 p_l|home: (reverse (mapcar #'1+ *list*)) 02:45:08 yeah, I got the idea right after writing that :) 02:45:20 I think if you had good enough escape analysis, why not? 02:45:47 I'm actually kinda surprised that CCL doesn't at least cater for simple cases like these. 02:46:10 64 vs 128 bytes allocated for the above example on '(1 2 3 4). Hum. 02:48:11 SBCL doesn't seem to optimize that example either. :( 02:52:54 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:56:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:56:07 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:56:20 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:41 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:02:03 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:32 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 03:07:04 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:11:11 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483ACD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:20 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A28C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:20:42 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-146-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:22:02 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-146-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:59 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-146-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:23:02 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:51 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:28:35 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:31:47 kanru [~kanru@209.118.182.194] has joined #lisp 03:44:18 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:19 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:45:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 03:54:52 findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:05 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:18 Am I correct to assume that in general, it is unsafe for multiple threads to read and write a slot using accessors? 03:57:32 in most implementations using a lock is indeed necessary to safely serialize those 03:58:04 reading should not be a problem if there are no writers 03:59:41 I have been going over hunchentoot's code, acceptor.lisp, in particular. 04:00:51 hunchentoot:start/stop write to the slot acceptor-shutdown-p. 04:00:52 also, locally bound special variables are thread-local 04:01:13 there could be any number of threads reading that slot. Is this a potential hazard? 04:01:55 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:04 I'm not familiar with huchentoot personally and would have to inspect its code, but you could be right, if a thread can write while another could read 04:03:19 some operations might be atomic enough in some implementations, but not in others 04:10:59 I am rather unfamiliar with hunchentoot myself. I was interested in looking an example of how to shut down threads in a safe manner. 04:19:50 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:08 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:42 hitecnologys [~Noname@94.137.21.148] has joined #lisp 04:22:30 Hi, guys! 04:23:24 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:24:42 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:55 Maybe it's a stupid question, but I head that runtime checking is so slow, is it true? 04:25:22 heard* 04:25:39 Ah. 04:25:48 Runtime type chcking* :P 04:26:14 -_\\ 04:26:25 teggi [~teggi@113.173.31.186] has joined #lisp 04:27:11 hitecnologys: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129755 04:27:38 -!- Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has quit [Quit: Archenoth] 04:27:52 hitecnologys: what's the point of getting fast wrong answers? 04:28:17 hitecnologys: www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~se4921/PDF/ariane5-article.pdf 04:28:25 hitecnologys: what's the point of getting fast big explosions? 04:29:35 hitecnologys: don't you think it would have been worth all the CPU time, to check for values too big and to use a big num when it happens that a fixnum doesn't hold it, instead of blowing an rocket? 04:29:46 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 04:30:33 pjb: Hm. Yes, getting slow but true answers is better. But it's not good to use generic-function everywhere, sure? How to know where I should use it? 04:30:46 Why wouldn't it be good? 04:31:01 Notice that most non generic functions in CL are still generic. 04:31:17 cl:+ is not a generic function, but (+ 1 2) and (+ 1/2 3/4) both work. 04:32:01 Therefore if you write a function that calls cl:+, your function becomes automatically generic: you can call it with integers, ratios, floating points, complexes. 04:32:29 So I can use generic functions freely without worrying about speed and resources? 04:32:37 If you use map instead of mapcar or dolist, your function becomes automatically generic on all types of sequences: lists, vectors, strings. 04:32:43 Yes. 04:32:54 Speed and resources concerns should not be primary. 04:33:13 We have computers that are so fast with so much memory, and this will go on increasing. 04:33:13 OK, thanks a lot. 04:33:33 hitecnologys: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/07/hp-memristors/ 04:34:02 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 04:34:58 I came from C, Asm and microcontrollers world, so I used to calculate CPU ticks in my mind and count used bytes in memory Ah. 04:35:22 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 04:35:41 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 04:35:43 Well, programming for a microcontroler with 128 bytes of RAM and 16 KB or EEPROM is not the same thing as programming for an iPhone or a current desktop or laptop. 04:36:08 hitecnologys: the cheapest computer money can buy, eg. a Raspberry Pi has 256 MEGA bytes of RAM. 04:37:05 pjb: Yes, it's really hard for me to get used to this powerful machines. So I have to invent lots of things to optimize memory and CPU usage. :P 04:37:34 pjb: I takes lots of time. 04:37:40 hitecnologys: you can do optimization, but only AFTER your program is completed and correct, and ONLY IF customers complain about speed. 04:38:26 pjb: That's why my programming style is bad. I do it before. =( 04:38:34 And even, when customers complain, there are tricks, like displaying a picture of the windows of your program as they were when last quitting, so that you have time to load the state back, while the users are happily watching and reloading state in their minds. 04:39:56 Actually, IIRC, iOS does that automatically, so you don't even have to program it yourself :-) 04:39:58 Thanks for help a lot. I'll try to get this thoughts about speed out of my mind. 04:41:01 hitecnologys: algorithmically, you may start being careful about your asymptotes, when you have to process millions of items (before it was hundreds or thousands of items). 04:41:26 pjb: OK. 04:42:55 I few years ago, I wanted to analyse a dependency graph, I had between 1500 and 2000 nodes. I implemented a simple graph algorithm to detect cycles, and was afraid it'd be too slow (it has bad asymptotic complexity). But when I ran it on my data, it was instantaneous, on the then current processors. There are whole books and theses about designing faster algorithsm for those problems. But you don't need them unless you're Gogole. 04:43:21 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-247-165.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:45:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 04:46:49 -!- prip [~foo@host80-120-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:48:01 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rpxlncoxhldjzveh] has joined #lisp 04:48:12 prip [~foo@host80-120-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:50:16 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:54:22 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:54:35 -!- Quadresce is now known as Quadrescence 04:56:46 -!- p_l|home [~pl@91.222.124.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:58:06 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:02:30 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:05:47 asvil [~asvil@178.120.135.226] has joined #lisp 05:15:06 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-109-165-199.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:18:48 2K isn't that much 05:18:50 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:14 might have been different if it was 2 million 05:20:08 I'm still waiting for google chrome to put something in a list pop-up I opened more than 2 minutes ago 05:20:43 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:21:17 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-247-165.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:21 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 05:26:16 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.137] has joined #lisp 05:26:19 turned out they wait for you to put something qualifying the list before putting anything in it 05:26:52 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:27:20 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-098-024-165-246.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 05:28:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-247-165.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:28:59 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-247-165.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:48 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:54 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:44:07 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:14 -!- auganov [~auganov@83.238.158.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:40 auganov [~auganov@81.219.91.185] has joined #lisp 06:02:34 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:38 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.82] has joined #lisp 06:03:02 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 06:03:48 Is it possible for me to ask quicklisp for the reverse dependencies of a package? 06:05:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.120] has joined #lisp 06:05:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.120] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:05:13 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-229-92.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:15 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:15:39 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:16:44 jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has joined #lisp 06:16:46 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 findiggle [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:19 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:21:05 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 06:23:21 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 06:25:23 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:25:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:23 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:26:24 sigjuice: you can map all the systems, so yes. 06:30:48 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:32:09 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 06:32:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:32:25 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:32:54 can hunchentoot send multipart data in a streaming way? ie. send a "please wait" page, and update that (in the same HTTP connection) with the finished result, without a redirection? 06:33:47 flip214: it's not about the server side, it's about the client side 06:34:16 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:34:19 jdz: no, I'm not speaking about calling javascript to update window.location or whatever else. 06:34:20 well, it's doable on the server side alone, but in both cases, yes, it's possible with hunchentoot 06:34:23 flip214: hunchentoot does not directly support that, but you can have your handler write to the stream and do whatever 06:34:24 or any other webserver 06:34:42 H4ns: thanks, I'd hoped for some kind of support. 06:34:54 flip214: then what are you talking about? how do you imagine the "please wait" page to disappear? 06:35:47 jdz: he is talking about sending a multipart mime response that the client would display in sequence. i have a faint remembrance that browsers support that. 06:36:31 jdz: do you know multipart support in http? like in emails - a single item is composed of several parts, and later parts can replace earlier parts. (text => html etc.) 06:37:00 flip214: do you actually know that browsers support it? 06:37:10 flip214: yes, but i have not seen them used for page display 06:37:14 I've used that in the past ... about 10 years ago? 06:37:54 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:38:11 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:38:40 i think for this one must make their own request/response/handler/something classes 06:39:03 because by default hunchentoot waits for the whole response to be be made, and only then sends response to the client 06:39:06 flip214: what kind of support would you expect? i mean, it should be simple enough to use cl-mime to write the multipart response with the right content types to the client through the socket. 06:39:11 jdz: no. 06:39:46 jdz: handlers can return their content, but they can also ask hunchentoot for the stream connected to the client and directly write to that. 06:39:50 H4ns: well, some kind of (hunchentoot:return-multipart "...") eg. with possible later calls 06:39:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:40:00 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:40:06 H4ns: right. 06:40:10 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40:23 so that on the first call the necessary headers are written, and later calls just push more data on the socket 06:40:42 flip214: what do you mean by "call" here? 06:40:46 of course, that's not nice if the TCP connection "hangs" 06:40:52 -!- kanru [~kanru@209.118.182.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40:59 flip214: i'd use cl-mime. it does not seem to be a very common requirement anyway. 06:41:13 flip214: you still need to do it all in a single request, right? 06:41:26 jdz: (h:r-m "

rendering in progress.

") (sleep 120) (h:r-m "

rendering done") 06:42:10 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:40 flip214: you can save the next guy some research work by bloggin about how this can be done with cl-mime. it should be just a matter of a little research. 06:42:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has joined #lisp 06:43:24 "blogging" 06:44:42 flip214: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#send-headers 06:44:55 pjb: any pointers on how I might go about it? Do I need to explore in ql-dist? 06:45:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:23 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 06:48:07 H4ns: is there a potential thread-safety problem with acceptor-shutdown-p in acceptor.lisp? 06:48:52 I see that hunchentoot:start/stop write to it, but other threads might be reading it via accessors. 06:49:14 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:31 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:49:48 sigjuice: i don't think so. the worst that can happen - as far as i understand - is that a worker thread may not exit at the earliest possible point in time. 06:50:01 sigjuice: i agree that the mechanism is fishy. 06:50:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:52:03 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 06:55:00 I am not expert, but I think there might be a hazard unless (setf (acceptor-shutdown-p acceptor) value) and (acceptor-shutdown-p acceptor) are atomic 06:55:21 I am no ... 06:56:12 they are "atomic enough" in that there is nothing that could go wrong except that one thread might read the flag as nil when it is already t 06:56:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:56:35 but maybe i am wrong, so what is it that you're concerned about? 06:57:58 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 06:58:23 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.54.65] has joined #lisp 06:59:07 I was just looking for an example of how to shut down threads in a safe manner and came across acceptor.lisp 06:59:52 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-247-165.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:59:59 i'd not call it exemplary :) 07:00:05 :) 07:00:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:01:11 i'd also reach for a higher-level threading library if i'd be implementing threaded hunchentoot today. i found lparallel to be very nice. 07:02:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:03:32 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 07:07:11 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.137] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:09:59 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:37 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:12:55 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 xan_ [~xan@fanzine.igalia.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:29 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:18:40 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:12 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c31a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:03 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wboxenzezwuqwhyz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:22:05 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:22:39 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:23:59 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:26:43 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:28:17 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.133.243] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:30:54 ehu [~ehuels@089144206198.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:54 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:30:56 Hi all. The question is about CLOS. How can I change value of some object slots (for example A,B), when user changed value of slot X. I need "hook" on slot updating. 07:31:15 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 07:31:15 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 07:31:15 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:32:25 are you looking for slot-value-using-class and (setf slot-value-using-class) maybe? 07:32:32 write an accessor function for X that updates A and B accordingly. 07:33:28 or write :before or :after methods for the existing accessor methods 07:34:18 i guess he is looking for the magic mop way, not for ways to code that up explicitly 07:35:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 07:36:17 H4ns: no, i want the simplest way. Question is because I know that use get get slot value by more than one way. Am I wrong? 07:36:22 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rpxlncoxhldjzveh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:37:10 user may get* 07:37:39 asvil: i'd generally advice against using slot-value and instead provide accessors 07:38:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:39:05 H4ns: ok, understand. 07:40:10 -!- gensym [~tg@85.158.178.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:25 zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-146-121.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:45:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-215.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 07:53:46 -!- hitecnologys [~Noname@94.137.21.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:03:35 I put up a poll on which language/development environment to support for LedgerSMB next and so far lisp is winning. 08:03:53 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gtwdqjomjjezknuw] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:11:54 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 08:17:13 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:19:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:21:09 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:26:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:26:48 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 08:28:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-146-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:31:53 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:30 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-182-232.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:37:41 fe[nl]ix: hi, mkstemp works fine i think, it's just that in ccl file-stream cannot be bivalent, only socket streams; i'll work around that somehow 08:38:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.120] has joined #lisp 08:38:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.120] has quit [Changing host] 08:38:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:39:52 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:41:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:43:40 tg1 [~tg@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 08:44:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@host229-131-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:44:41 -!- tg1 is now known as gensym 08:45:43 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:54:17 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #lisp 09:02:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 09:05:08 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:07:38 p_l|home [~pl@fdz74.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:08:51 -!- p_l|home is now known as p_l|cafe 09:13:14 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:14:02 bitonic` [~user@host86-138-96-5.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:20 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:19 hlavaty: see tests/streams.lisp, there's a make-file-stream there 09:19:21 flip214: i just found out that cl-mime does not support streaming, so my suggestion was a bit misleading, sorry for that. 09:21:34 H4ns: ok, I'll update my github issue, thanks 09:22:52 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 09:24:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:24:27 ApeShot [~user@mailhost.pot-au-pin.fr] has joined #lisp 09:24:30 flip214: github issue? 09:24:46 https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/issues/33 09:25:24 flip214: i don't see the patch? 09:26:29 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.82] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:27:25 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.123.209] has joined #lisp 09:27:47 ;) 09:27:54 is there library that provides standard lisp process on exit hook? or some example code that does process exit hook per implementation? 09:28:49 echo-area [~user@114.254.102.196] has joined #lisp 09:34:44 flip214: i've closed the issue. please see my comment for an explanation. 09:35:24 H4ns: ;( 09:35:50 the other way that I solved that was by sending a new javascript line every few seconds, that changed some DOM data ... but that wasn't nice either. 09:36:17 and HTTP polling only works if JS is enabled, too ... 09:36:31 rbarraud [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:36:33 flip214: right. the web works best if it is not disabled. 09:36:37 or are you proposing to use meta reloads every few seconds? 09:36:59 flip214: i'd use javascript, it works very well and is easy to implement and handle. 09:37:56 flip214: have you read http://netzhansa.blogspot.it/2012/06/lparallel-parallel-programming-library.html ? 09:37:56 "very well" ... new (AJAX) request for each status update isn't "good" IMO 09:38:09 flip214: because? 09:38:16 yeah, when it was referenced on planet lisp 09:39:03 flip214: the solution has the advantage that it actually works independent of any timeouts that are established by intermeditate proxies or the browser. 09:39:37 flip214: these timeouts are completely out of your control, so your solution is not robust. 09:39:51 well, my testing (long ago) showed that sending something every so often did work fine ... another space ... and another space ... 09:40:26 flip214: and that is better than ajax polling because.....? 09:41:05 because the thread/process doing the work is running anyway, and ajax means a new request each time 09:41:22 flip214: and that is bad because...? 09:42:23 because depending on the infrastructure getting the current status from a database takes a few milliseconds, and that adds up for busy sites 09:43:02 flip214: and you're working on a site so busy that you cannot afford the status polling? 09:43:48 flip214: you need to understand that http is not a connection oriented protocol, even though it uses a connection based protocol underneath. the whole infrastructure is based on messages. 09:43:54 "cannot afford" ... no. but I'm open to suggestions for easy ways to avoid it 09:44:22 flip214: i've made my offer. 09:44:46 taking a patch, you mean? perhaps I'll come back to you. 09:46:23 flip214: no, i mean "use ajax polling" which is how it is done. i may look at your patch and if it is properly documented, i might accept it. given the points that i made regarding it not being a solution, i'm not all that positive, though. 09:47:49 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-wwmpyzkkzxzpjdfi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:48:31 "how it is done" ... If I listened to the majority I'd be over in #java, not here ;) 09:49:13 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.161.239.26] has joined #lisp 09:49:32 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wrrovwbjtgwgvamq] has joined #lisp 09:50:47 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.161.239.26] has quit [Client Quit] 09:50:48 flip214: in this case browser mess is part of the "everybody" 09:51:33 yes, I'll just stay with Please reload later to see the result. ;] 09:51:56 flip214: have it your way. i'd say that if you insist on doing things differently, you'd better be prepared to actually come up with your own patch rather than asking for help with that. 09:52:19 yes, I understand. 09:53:01 -!- bitonic` [~user@host86-138-96-5.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:53:26 there's been a short sci-fi story ... sadly I can't remember the title (help, please?). it's about there being 3 classes of geniuses, and only the "lowest" level of them typically being recogniced by manhood .... someone has to try different ways. 09:53:45 (I thought Asimov or Lem, but couldn't find it anymore. #sci-fi etc. was no help either.) 09:54:07 flip214: ah, so your usage of vim and misunderstanding how the web works is actually a sign of your geniality? 09:54:12 bitonic` [~user@host86-138-143-115.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:10 now you're trying to judge me and my knowledge from very limited data. And I never said that I'm a genius, only that there have to be _some_ people trying different ways to achieve something. 09:55:34 flip214: you took the discussion in that direction 09:55:36 ah, H4ns toxicity is amusing when not directed at oneself. Why so angry :-) 09:56:07 maxm: i'm not angry. 09:56:09 I've hoped that someone can tell me the title of the short story ... looking for that for over a year now. 09:56:40 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:56:55 flip214: oh, sorry, i though that your question was related to the problem that we have been discussing so far. if it was unrlated, i retract my comment. 10:00:47 H4ns: anyway, what's wrong with robustifying long-polling by reopening polls client-side when they get cut off? Constant polling isn't quite as responsive as I would like. 10:02:21 flip214: another option is to simply use websockets, which does support long connections, to notify the client immediately of process completion. There's also techniques to simulate them using regular http requests, but those aren't as nice. 10:02:22 sykopomp: there is nothing wrong with it, but that is more complex than sending a multipart/x-mixed-replaced response. 10:02:23 *maxm* found long polling pretty reliable on firefox/chrome, as long as you restart your request in both onData and onError/onClose 10:02:30 basically restart it in all possible cases 10:02:58 just make sure to add a little timer delay in case of onError so you don't eat 100% cpu in case of network failure or such 10:03:19 i'd even say that multipart/x-mixed-replaced is not really part of the solution. it is more about javascript on the client. 10:04:30 I would rather do it with javascript, yeah. 10:05:20 (I'd never heard of multipart/x-mixed-replace -- do browsers automagically implement it, or do you need to javascript your way to handling it?) 10:06:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:07:32 sykopomp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME#Mixed-Replace_.28experimental.29 10:09:21 I'd suggest looking into server-sent-events, instead. 10:10:04 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:10:15 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 10:14:44 fe[nl]ix: thanks a lot, but my issue is not with iolib but ccl streams 10:16:06 can't you use a iolib stream ? 10:16:54 they're gray streams 10:17:45 fe[nl]ix: hmm, true, i could just use iolib streams 10:19:39 -!- Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has quit [K-Lined] 10:21:15 try using that definition of file-stream from the test suite. 10:21:30 yeah i'll try that, thanks! 10:21:32 if you think it needs some adjustments for real-life use, send me a patch and then I'll move the class from the test suite to the library proper 10:21:41 ok 10:21:42 swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 10:22:05 *swilde* en_U 10:22:22 hlavaty: just remember to use IOlib(and cffi) from git 10:23:12 Hi *, I wonder if there is a way to prevent the printer from using #n= #n# syntax. Setting *print-circle* to NIL doesn't help. 10:24:16 It should help 10:24:29 swilde: WFM. 10:24:31 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 10:24:37 hm, using sbcl it doesn't 10:25:03 or might this be a slime issue? checking... 10:25:13 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:25:42 WFM in my sbcl 1.0.55. 10:26:04 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 10:27:13 yep, my bad: used let put no explicit printing instruction. (setf *print-circle* nil) (foo) does what I want. 10:27:20 swilde: Perhaps your setting *print-circle* in a different env/scope? 10:27:30 ah 10:28:13 (let ((*print-circle* nil)) (write (foo))) ; works, too as expected 10:28:26 sorry for the noise 10:32:43 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:37:41 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-199-45.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:39:08 harish [~harish@111.65.29.2] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:24 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:49:43 -!- harish [~harish@111.65.29.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:50:05 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 10:51:53 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:47 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 skalawag [~user@c75-111-92-24.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:48 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14:09:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-176-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:50 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:46 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:18 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.82] has left #lisp 14:16:32 lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:32 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:16:32 lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:00 tritchey [~tritchey@c-67-177-182-19.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:21:31 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-59-201.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:24:29 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.3.243] has joined #lisp 14:26:08 i have a package with many classes with many slots in them, how can i quickly export every accessor function? 14:26:50 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.21] has joined #lisp 14:28:18 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@89.130.60.29] has quit [] 14:29:20 Farzad: You could define a DEFCLASS* macro that does an export for every accessor. 14:30:57 Or, you could use the MOP and make an EXPORT-ACCESSORS function that iterates over the slots of the classes and exports them. 14:31:35 TDT [~TDT@5317-nat00.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:01 sellout: ok, i think i'll do the second thanks 14:33:59 chturne [~chturne@host86-148-233-236.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:26 bitonic` [~user@host86-138-143-83.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:45 You could use your editor to add the reader symbols to :export, and make sure you're defining APIs instead of being lazy and sloppy. 14:34:47 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 14:35:11 fe[nl]ix: the iolib gray streams don't are not supposed to work much are they? e.g. file-length and file-position 14:36:52 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-143-115.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:38:48 how should file-length and file-position work on a socket?... 14:38:57 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:39:19 sykopomp: on a file-stream 14:41:37 Farzad: What sykopomp says  sometimes I write a macro that includes exports, but invariably I go back, remove it, and add them explicitly. 14:51:01 hlavaty: I think I can easily add that. can you use lseek in the meanwhile ? 14:51:46 lseek is not the problem but buffer management, i'll look into it 14:52:29 i think the iobuf in dual-channel-gray-stream needs to be reset 14:52:37 after seek 14:53:12 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:54:39 Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] 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joined #lisp 15:35:15 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-wrrovwbjtgwgvamq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:30 -!- ApeShot [~user@mailhost.pot-au-pin.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:44 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 15:36:11 fe[nl]ix: how is %read-into-simple-array-ub8 supposed to handle :eof? at the moment that information is lost 15:36:27 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-67-177-182-19.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 15:36:55 ApeShot [~user@mailhost.pot-au-pin.fr] has joined #lisp 15:36:57 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.110.100] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 15:39:14 no, forget above message 15:39:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:42:38 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 15:46:40 hlavaty: I don't remember how that part of iolib works, it's been quite a while since the last time I touched it 15:47:05 ok :-D 15:47:23 this part looks fine 15:51:24 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-247-165.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:38 H4ns: when using yason:parse with keyword JSON-ARRAYS-AS-VECTORS T is it normal for the vector returned to have it's fill-pointer to extend beyond its length? 15:53:01 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 foreignFunction1 [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has joined #lisp 15:53:55 H4ns: e.g. i have a response where (eql (length response-vector) 162) => t and (eql (array-total-size response-vector) 167) => t 15:54:35 -!- foreignFunction1 is now known as foreignFunction 15:55:12 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:56:06 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:58:54 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:59:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:33 fe[nl]ix your the iolib author? 16:01:41 *you're 16:01:56 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:38 see that you are. Curious about state of lisp OS these days, 16:02:46 s/,/./ 16:04:07 JuanDaugherty: I'm not working on any lisp OS currently 16:04:44 no activity known to you? 16:05:33 maybe Fade 16:05:57 should say OS concepts 16:06:49 something that builds on rather than replaces the linux kernel 16:09:41 k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.5] has joined #lisp 16:10:33 pnpuff [~user@host79-250-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 -!- pnpuff [~user@host79-250-dynamic.56-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:39 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 16:15:01 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.82] has joined #lisp 16:15:04 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 16:17:58 -!- hitecnologys [~Noname@46.233.227.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:13 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 16:22:57 trigen_ [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:30b7:123:2bd6:7949] has joined #lisp 16:24:08 -!- trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:3800:3f5d:2bd6:7949] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:25:00 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:27:06 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:26 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:29:54 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:08 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-54-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:31:29 mason` [~user@wsip-98-189-9-189.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:32 ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 abeaumont [~Alfredo@85.85-87-28.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #lisp 16:37:52 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-115-122.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:18 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:50 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-204-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:55 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 16:41:25 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:41:35 lcc [ce1db6ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.29.182.173] has joined #lisp 16:47:09 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.21] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 16:47:56 JuanDaugherty: i'm working in my head on it 16:48:05 Kron_ [~Kron@59.92.205.21] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 16:51:34 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.110.100] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:54:21 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 16:54:36 -!- johndoe [johndoe@unaffiliated/johndoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:54:52 tritchey [~tritchey@c-67-177-182-19.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 johndoe [johndoe@unaffiliated/johndoe] has joined #lisp 16:57:30 -!- 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joined #lisp 17:24:36 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-232-46.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:24:47 -!- hitecnologys [~Noname@46.233.227.247] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:48 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25:18 redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:34 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.30.23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:41 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.23.182] has joined #lisp 17:33:18 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 17:33:34 pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:59 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:34 sellout [~Adium@ip-64-134-221-135.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:12 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:53 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:47:31 -!- lcc [ce1db6ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.29.182.173] has quit [] 17:48:23 mon_key: array-total-size returns the allocated size, length returns the fill-pointer, so yes, it is normal. 17:50:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:54:53 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gtwdqjomjjezknuw] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:56:01 H4ns: Thanks. Was the intention in specifying the arrays as :adjustable T that these vectors be adjusted? 17:56:42 mon_key: yes. as the parser does not now the length of the arrays that it creates in advance, it uses adjustable arrays. 17:57:08 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.208] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 H4ns: Was the intent that user code adjust these arrays or that yason do it? 17:58:25 H4ns: I ask only out of curiousity. :) 17:58:59 is there a function to insert in an ordered list somewhere in CL? 17:59:06 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:48 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:14 clhs merge 18:04:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge.htm 18:04:22 bitonic: but better just don't 18:05:12 stassats: why? 18:05:32 it's inefficient 18:05:56 stassats: how can you know what I'm using that for :)? 18:06:09 I think it will suffice for what I need to do. 18:07:17 well, because it's inefficient either way 18:07:56 better just sort once everything is collected 18:08:52 stassats: well but I have some sorted list already. 18:08:58 yeah, who needs priority queues? 18:09:02 but yeah sorting at the end will do as well 18:09:41 actually I think sorting will be worse, given the small size of the list 18:09:52 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has left #lisp 18:12:42 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:54 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:59 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@fanzine.igalia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:48 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:24:42 well, `sort' does not remove duplicates anyway. 18:25:54 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-193-74.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:26:33 sort... sorts... 18:28:16 bitonic: have you profiled this as being a terrible bottleneck in your program's performance? If not, just make it simple. 18:29:01 dlowe: oh, I'm trying to make it as simple as possible. but `sort' does not remove duplicates :) 18:29:07 I'll just use merge 18:29:12 no, remove-duplicates removes duplicates 18:29:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:29:23 ah. OK. 18:29:36 pushnew builds a list without pushing on duplicates, if that's your thing 18:33:53 hlavaty: everything ok ? 18:36:13 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:38:00 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:40:58 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-154.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:48:39 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:40 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.98] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.98] has quit [Changing host] 18:50:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:52:00 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:02 ferada [~ferada@188.97.117.130] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined 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[~Adium@ip-64-134-221-135.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:35:45 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:36:13 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.96.159] has joined #lisp 19:37:18 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:40:18 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:28 ehu` [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@089144206245.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:53 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:42:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-204-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:42:09 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 19:43:58 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.89] has joined #lisp 19:44:33 mon_key: as i said - when parsing json, the parser does not know the number of elements in an array that it reads. therefore, it uses an adjustable array 19:45:44 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-182-232.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:49:45 H4ns: OK, thanks. 19:51:03 -!- nilly [~nil@c-71-231-227-148.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 19:53:16 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:56:39 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 19:56:55 -!- mechanyancat [~mechanyan@li125-243.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:56:55 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-196-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:12 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-196-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:37 gz` [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:07 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:07 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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[fare@nat/google/x-nzyvqheindzmctev] has joined #lisp 21:35:52 This question might be a bit silly, but is there a way to do more effecient ratio multiplication (such as temporarily suspending the need to reduce the answer)? 21:36:48 herbieB: gcd is pretty quick, and makes subsequent operations faster. If you can determine a large-enough common denominator, you can try working with integers. 21:38:53 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:39:12 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 pkhuong: The denominator is fixed (we're dealing with currency), but I was hoping to avoid the conversion to and from integers to make the code more readable/maintainable. When I do the conversion simply through multiplication, i get a 30% speedup or so 21:44:28 Well, more like 70% speedup 21:46:41 But was hoping there was a compilation hint I could give rather than changing the code, my guess is there's not 21:47:35 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:55:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@LMontsouris-156-26-49-159.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:56:52 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:17 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.135.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:50 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has joined #lisp 22:06:46 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:06:50 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:09:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.11.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:49 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:50 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.221] has joined #lisp 22:27:16 herbieB: why are you using ratios for currency? 22:30:06 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:30:07 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:40 p_l|home: In general, it tends to lead to a bit more maintainable code. 22:32:24 p_l|home: But specifically in this case, I'm doing a bit of benchmarking against java's BigDecimal 22:32:28 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-162.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:54 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nzyvqheindzmctev] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:57 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:34:26 herbieB: I don't know if this might be useful to you, but i stumbled upon this decimal numbers package recently: http://wukix.com/lisp-decimals 22:36:08 pavelpenev: Interesting, it's at least worth a look 22:36:13 pavelpenev: Thanks 22:38:24 herbieB: If the denominator is constant, why are you using rationals? Why not just integers with a divide at the end? 22:38:25 Ah, it seems they represent everything behind the scenes as ratios anyway, meaning that the multiplication is still going to be ratio multiplication 22:39:18 *jasom* hit page-down and sees the answer to that question 22:40:04 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:56 asvil [~asvil@178.120.135.226] has joined #lisp 22:46:41 -!- rrradical [~rrradical@c-50-137-77-177.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:04 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.169.208.90] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:54:18 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:24 When writing predicate functions which check for the presence of a string in a list with length ~8 elements using cl:equal as test predicate are there any generalizable rules w/r/t which might be more performant cl:member, cl:find, cl:position, or cl:some? 22:54:47 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:55:38 my bet is on MEMBER 22:56:26 well, in reality (loop for x in list thereis (equal x "some")) would be faster 22:56:48 stassats: OK, thanks. So, returning the tail isn't generally a big deal? 22:57:27 stassats: returning tail for MEMBER 22:57:38 except as increasing lifetime, no 22:58:26 but, don't ask, just benchmark 22:58:44 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:47 Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-232-149.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:59:35 stassats: yeah, I know.... 23:00:49 timack [~timack@hlfx60-1-136.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:01:08 Sorella__ [~quildreen@189-12-49-249.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:01:23 on sbcl, my guess turned out to be true loop > member > find, as in faster 23:01:38 without using any declarations or anything 23:02:31 so position prob. a touch slower than find because it has to return the index if found 23:02:40 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has joined #lisp 23:02:52 it has to calculate it 23:03:09 incrementing a fixnum is noise compared to the rest. 23:04:00 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-232-149.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:14 pkhuong: rest being the comparison of strings and element type interrogations? 23:05:25 dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has joined #lisp 23:06:02 -!- Eulo [~Eulo@78-72-37-188-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:14 hitecnologys [~Noname@46.233.227.247] has joined #lisp 23:09:40 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 23:10:09 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:22 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:32 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:12:57 mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:47 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:15:17 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:15:35 -!- ferada [~ferada@188.97.117.130] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:16:12 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 23:16:58 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:17:16 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 23:18:05 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:08 -!- Sorella__ is now known as Sorella 23:20:25 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-12-49-249.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 23:20:25 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:20:33 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has joined #lisp 23:22:46 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-231-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:23:50 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:30:38 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.135.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:31:21 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:35 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 23:32:17 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:24 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:32:27 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has joined #lisp 23:33:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.123.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34:14 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:15 -!- saschakb_ [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:20 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-143-83.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:03 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:48 Huh, I always wonder how compilers compile themselves It's amazing. 23:37:15 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:38:10 (just building sbcl on fresh-installed system) 23:38:27 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:41:23 hitecnologys: just like they compile any other program? :) 23:41:51 dnolen [~user@pool-68-161-100-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 pavelpenev: No, it's 20% more amazing! =) 23:45:02 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:45:39 -!- trigen_ [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:30b7:123:2bd6:7949] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:45:58 trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:30b7:123:2bd6:7949] has joined #lisp 23:46:15 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:48:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.46.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:49:37 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:50:41 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:56:20 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:29 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.97.113.38] has joined #lisp