00:02:28 ASau: well, it doesn't exist on my linux system 00:02:44 p_l|home: it exists on at least 3 different operating systems. 00:02:54 /proc/cpuinfo exists only on one. 00:03:06 let me guess, they are called Open/Free/NetBSD? 00:03:44 I didn't check OpenBSD, it is not included. 00:05:03 Still, there simply doesn't seem to be a truly portable API for that 00:05:21 basically, you need to write a portability shim 00:05:49 Hwloc could have something. 00:08:08 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-229-92.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:09:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:16 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:27 ...Not to mention that /proc/cpuinfo is not an API, 00:11:36 you could have proposed parsing dmesg as well. 00:12:10 ASau: actually, for linux, the API since 2.6 is /sys/ 00:14:57 I think getconf(1) should work. 00:15:22 could the #'compile be replaced with #'function ? 00:15:23 At least it seems to report correct values for NPROCESSORS_CONF and NPROCESSORS_ONLN here. 00:16:11 Tells me those are unknown variables here. 00:16:23 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:16:33 Let me guess, linux? 00:16:43 Yes. 00:16:57 ASau: I believe NPROCESSORS_CONF is BSD extension 00:17:01 oh _NPROCESSORS_CONF I have. 00:17:04 The most standard platform as usual. 00:17:18 lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:26 ASau: more like a very virulent platform ;) 00:17:39 to the point that I had a windows with MS-supplied BSD userland 00:17:42 ASau: /proc/cpuinfo is part of the kernel ABI, and thus its format is very much stable 00:17:44 (or so it looked like) 00:17:50 fe[nl]ix: it's also optional 00:18:08 not really 00:18:11 and the format isn't exactly stable... it's stable per machine type 00:18:53 only part of it 00:18:55 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 00:19:08 Calling /proc/cpuinfo part of kernel ABI is like calling dmesg messages "ABI." 00:19:08 though most follow similar scheme to x86 00:19:18 Both are plain text rather than any sort of API. 00:19:39 ASau: newsflash - Unix was designed with textual APIs in mind 00:20:15 they just didn't get it right at the first time (ioctls are a runaway api of serial lines) 00:20:16 Tell that to your tty. 00:21:11 ASau: my tty is actually textual (character stream) device. The ioctls are historical cruft from V1-V7 era 00:21:48 well, byte stream 00:21:49 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 00:21:52 Try sending binary file to it and see how it behaves. :) 00:22:55 ASau: Garbage In, Garbage Out. Common for everything that isn't windows (which will try to make something useful despite programmer errors... of course, universe wins) 00:23:13 ASau: every file in /proc is actually a kernel function, so strictly speaking it's an API 00:23:25 it's an API, just maybe not ABI 00:23:41 not one that spits out very well-structured info, but it's one nonetheless 00:23:51 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:24:02 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:02 also, there's the argument that the filesystem is just a name service 00:24:24 well, the filesystem tree you see from applications 00:28:04 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:28:12 Spring took it similar way, just from the other way around (coming to filesystem from IPC namespace) 00:30:51 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:31:13 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:31:24 ASau: I was just joking on the "portability" requirement. Isn't everybody running Linux? :-) 00:32:54 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:27 ASau: that said, if you want an API, you could consider SNMP. There are servers for all the systems, and IIRC, the number of processors is in some MIB. 00:33:30 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 00:35:03 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:58 I am trying to disable a compiler so redirecting functions.. is there onmly two comiple fnctions in clhs? compile-file and compile? 00:36:18 Yes. 00:36:31 But other functions may call COMPILE: EVAL, COERCE. 00:36:48 or things behind DEFMACRO, DEFUN, etc. 00:37:24 oh right.. yes 00:37:51 the example on http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/f_cmp.htm 00:38:12 line two of the exmaple might return T 00:40:49 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:58 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:41:47 i wonder if (compile nil '(lambda () "replaced"))) can be (values (function (compile nil '(lambda () "replaced"))) nil nil) 00:41:54 oops 00:42:11 i wonder if (compile nil '(lambda () "replaced"))) can be (values (function '(lambda () "replaced") nil nil) 00:42:57 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:12 leo2007 [~leo@123.123.253.139] has joined #lisp 00:50:23 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:55:03 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.12] has joined #lisp 00:57:26 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 01:00:15 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:59 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 01:03:25 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:05:15 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:05:25 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:06:00 -!- dnolen` [~user@pool-68-161-100-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:07 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:10:06 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 01:11:51 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:15:24 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 01:21:43 !chant 01:21:49 minion: chant 01:21:49 MORE LIKE A VERY 01:22:49 that is a very good chant 01:22:50 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:24:54 clear 01:29:39 AFAIK, (compile nil '(lambda () "replaced")) can return (values (function (lambda () "replaced")) nil nil) 01:31:29 ccl and sbcl return the same kind of thing for (compile nil '(lambda () "replaced")) and (function (lambda () "replaced")). 01:36:03 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:37:57 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:42:01 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:43:14 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 01:43:28 -!- jnbek [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has left #lisp 01:44:11 -!- Mezon [3264c995@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.100.201.149] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:46:05 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:50:04 mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:39 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 01:59:53 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01:06 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:02:48 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 02:16:22 Is there a library that provides a portable interface to things like SBCL's *posix-argv* ? 02:19:15 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 02:20:27 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:25:00 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:31:07 Hi. Is cl-graph the only large-ish collection of graph algorithms in a cl library? 02:33:59 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:24 djao_ [~djao@cpe-24-90-213-252.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:45 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 02:45:35 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-50-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:55 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:58:50 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:00 sigjuice: cl-launch, kind of 02:59:47 that sounds like a good question for [pro], too, I think. 03:03:56 -!- benny [~user@i577A7127.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:07:51 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 03:08:38 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:07 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:28 _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:55 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483BE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:29 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839D98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:15:10 lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:27 benny [~user@i577A78A7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:16:45 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:20:10 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-66-65-50-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:20:18 -!- mooglenorph [~marco@70-90-96-161-ma-ne.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:22:07 ice [~ice@123.114.38.156] has joined #lisp 03:26:16 Xach: thank! I will check it out. 03:26:29 coder`` [~user@p54919033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:26:49 s,!,s!, 03:28:01 This is not vi, this is #lisp. 03:28:07 -!- coder` [~user@p54918D24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:28:17 ;-) 03:30:49 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:32:58 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 03:35:31 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:44 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 03:35:48 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:37:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:50 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.46.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:45:49 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47:39 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:22 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 03:51:24 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:53:27 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Quit: ] 03:58:37 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 04:02:26 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.88.135] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 04:06:12 -!- _travis_ [~travis@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:52 asvil [~asvil@178.120.128.238] has joined #lisp 04:11:10 What means "Decrement" in CDR? What it was supposed to decrement? 04:11:40 foreignFunction: remains of coding scheme of instructions on early IBM computer 04:11:54 prefix-address-decrement-tag iirc 04:12:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:12:06 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:14:10 rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:23:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:25:47 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:41 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18babb78.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:38 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-147-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:36:46 homie` 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[~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-46-38.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 SeySayux [~SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:29 Scheisselstadt 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quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:42:37 nullman` [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:02 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:43:02 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:43:02 -!- nullman` [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:14 kirin`_ [telex@xn--phnix-ibb.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:17 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 05:43:39 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:43:43 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 05:45:01 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:46:34 -!- Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:46:35 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:47:32 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zglfmydfnmffekbf] has joined #lisp 05:48:20 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:23 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 06:03:20 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:03:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: dying] 06:06:29 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 06:08:38 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09:06 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:14:23 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 06:20:08 Scheisselstadt [Scheissels@204.12.223.123] has joined #lisp 06:20:24 hiyosi [~hiyosi@188.93.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:22:08 kanedank [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:12 -!- kanedank [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:42 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:26:53 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 06:27:24 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 06:28:03 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 06:32:20 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:12 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:33 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:07 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:41:11 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:04 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:54:01 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:59:21 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:12:42 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:13:54 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:14 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 07:21:15 Hi all. Where can I find clx-application example from page http://www.cl-user.net/asp/kDau/sdataQIh5OvUinyciDQ3yNH8X8yBX8yBXnMq=/sdataQu3F$sSHnB==? 07:23:32 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:24:44 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:18 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:34:36 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:34:51 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 07:35:40 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 07:38:19 rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:41:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-138-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:50:21 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-138-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 07:52:19 pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:53:12 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:53:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:53:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:00:31 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 08:03:19 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:19 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:33 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:47 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:53 How is T and NIL represented in modern lisps? Is NIL just pointer to 0 memory address? 08:11:04 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:38 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 08:13:48 foreignFunction: not to 0 08:15:03 but I believe Clozure CL, at least on PPC, uses addresses somewhere within 4096-8192 for nil and some other common constants 08:18:36 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 08:18:53 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:34 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:24:10 vantage|home [~vantage@3.52-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 08:24:30 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@3.52-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has left #lisp 08:26:15 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 08:30:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:34:12 DoA [af7a69c3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.175.122.105.195] has joined #lisp 08:40:25 -!- DoA [af7a69c3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.175.122.105.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:47:41 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 08:50:09 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 hi 08:57:35 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:07 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:59:14 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 09:00:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00:28 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:27 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-034-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:55 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:51 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:22:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:26:16 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-034-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:29:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:35:41 -!- pinterface1 [~pinterfac@173-22-6-159.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:36:00 pinterface [~pinterfac@173-22-6-159.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:32 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:39 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.128.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:43:07 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.38.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:07 -!- blbef [~chatzilla@089144206233.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:50:27 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:39 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:56:43 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:59:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:56 alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02f89a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:09 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02f89a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05:08 fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:06:34 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:07:05 asvil [~asvil@178.121.59.85] has joined #lisp 10:10:00 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 10:10:57 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 10:11:22 Guthur [~user@212.183.140.54] has joined #lisp 10:14:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:16:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:16:23 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:37 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:19:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:23:02 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:27:02 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 10:28:02 Could anyone here recommend a good library for reading images? Doesn't matter if it only supports one or two formats. 10:28:28 minion: ch-image? 10:28:28 ch-image: ch-image is a common lisp image representation and processing library. http://www.cliki.net/ch-image 10:28:49 Thanks. 10:30:22 DoA [af7a69c3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.175.122.105.195] has joined #lisp 10:30:32 minion: opticl? 10:30:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``opticl''. 10:31:22 i don't know which one is preferred, never used either 10:31:36 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 10:31:51 minion: cl-devil? 10:31:51 cl-devil: cl-devil provides CFFI bindings to the DevIL image file loading library. http://www.cliki.net/cl-devil 10:32:06 ffi? not great 10:32:21 afaik opticl was written by the same developer by ch-image, but is more recent 10:32:36 stassats: FFI usually works fine for me 10:33:19 Guthur: that means you haven't dealt enough with it 10:33:27 Guthur: I actually did some minor work on gl-devil, just wondered if there was a more Lispy solution. :) 10:34:07 jtza8: sure, you didn't specify more lispy though, hehe 10:34:25 opticl appears to be more hyped, so i guess it's the one slyrus prefers 10:34:50 i'd just use the underlying libraries opticl uses, unless i needed to support more than one at a time 10:35:39 Last time I needed to do a sed-like operation in individual pixels (including i/o to a png file) I used opticl. 10:36:20 Thanks I'll have a look at opticl too. 10:39:39 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:46:33 stassats: b.t.w. from opticl's readme it seems both ch-image and opticl were written by slyrus, and that opticl is meant to replace ch-image. 10:50:24 hagish [~hagish@pD9FBF14A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:48 -!- DoA [af7a69c3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.175.122.105.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:53:24 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:53:25 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 10:53:25 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:53:45 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:57:32 saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA07EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:58:31 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.140.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:13 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:04:06 ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has joined #lisp 11:04:21 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128032159.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:04:43 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 11:09:01 bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:22 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:17:40 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:21:09 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:09 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:45 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:25:08 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:25:35 ice [~ice@123.114.48.48] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.48.48] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:57 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 11:27:14 ice [~ice@123.114.48.48] has joined #lisp 11:30:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:33 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:36:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:37:54 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:40:40 -!- fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:35 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-005-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:43:06 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:36 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@227-74-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:39 -!- hagish [~hagish@pD9FBF14A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:45:45 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:47:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d858add.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:48:17 Are the functions described here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html adopted in CLtL 2 ? 11:48:47 As far as i know, CLtL doesn't contain a portable way to augment/access lexical environments.. 11:48:54 (i mean CL 2) 11:49:02 what is cl2? 11:49:13 common lisp 2 11:49:18 what is this? 11:49:37 :) well, this is the common lisp we have now 11:49:46 no, we don't have common lisp 2 11:49:56 it's just Common Lisp 11:50:23 fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:50:31 ok, agreed, but do we have cl:augment-environment in it ? 11:50:34 but whatever you're trying to call it, there's no environment manipulation in Common Lisp 11:51:24 CLTL2 is not the standard for Common Lisp, if you want to get the right information, use CLHS 11:52:17 waht is CLtL2 then ? just a proposal by Guy Steele which was not standardized by the committee ? 11:52:55 it's not a proposal, it's a book by Steele describing a snapshot version of Common Lips standardization process 11:53:15 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:51 it is pretty close to ANSI though, isn't it? 11:54:04 sans SERIES 11:54:25 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:54:28 the just discussed environments are not present as well 11:54:53 it's a bit confusing.. 11:55:01 what is? 11:55:41 egnarts-ms: http://www.cliki.net/CLtL2 11:55:53 presense of all these names and standards for CL.. well, "Ansi Common Lisp" is the current version of the language that we're all using now, right ? 11:55:54 egnarts-ms: The book is describing the language while it was still in flux before getting standardised. 11:56:43 just don't read cltl2 if you want to get the exact prescriptions about Common Lisp 11:56:52 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@84.255.141.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:16 Kron_ [~Kron@84.255.141.82] has joined #lisp 11:58:17 ok, i understand.. seems there's another example of what is described in CLtL2 and what was not standardized: the generic-flet function 11:58:30 (or it was a special form) 11:58:51 egnarts-ms: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss181_w.htm 11:59:05 you can read http://bc.tech.coop/cltl2-ansi.htm for major differences 11:59:36 thanks 11:59:50 it also includes insightful comments, such as (lambda) being a "A dubious shortcut for (function (lambda ...))" 12:02:21 puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:02:54 ("insightful" as in "not really") 12:04:27 btw, which style is more preferred: use #' explicitly or make use of the "lambda" macro ? such as in 1) (mapcar (lambda (x) ...) some-list), or 2) (mapcar #'(lambda (x) ...) some-list) 12:04:52 i do realize that semantically they are the same 12:05:02 i prefer (lambda ()) 12:05:26 because, it's shorter, of course 12:05:46 egnarts-ms, if you are counting votes it prefer just (lambda ...) 12:07:08 some prefer egregious things like (function (lambda ())) 12:07:09 egnarts-ms: Paul Graham has something about that in ANSI Common Lisp... 12:07:52 egnarts-ms: I always preferred just (lambda) (I find the #' synxta a bit heavy on the eyes), but ht advances a reason why using # might fit better. 12:07:54 Let me check 12:08:06 who cares what Paul Graham has in his book? he doesn't even like Common Lisp 12:08:25 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@p4FEA07EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:08:51 egnarts-ms: i prefer #' when i want to get the attention of my future self while im reading my code(hey Pavel you idiot, you're doing something clever here, pay attention :) 12:09:01 stassats: the reasoning behind it can be sound. 12:09:58 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:10:11 pavelpenev: have you tried using comments? 12:10:54 "In ANSI Common Lisp there is also a lambda macro that allows you to write [...snip...]. Since the use of this kind of macro obscrures the symmetry between lambda expressions and symbolic function names (where you still have to use sharp quote) it yields a specious sort of elegance at best" 12:11:16 fsmunoz: which is not sound at all 12:11:57 it's funny how pg talked about elegance and then produced Arc 12:13:14 fsmunoz: i myself noticed that when you're writing a complex macro which expands into many lambda's, it is better to use #' explicitly 12:13:34 whereas in hand-written code, just lambda is equally okay 12:13:35 stassats: I put comments in my code when i have to stop and think about what i'm doing, so i explain the choice i made in a sentence. 12:13:46 tho i cannot give rational reasons :) 12:13:47 the only sound argument would be an fMRI showing reduced brain activity when using #' 12:14:31 stassats: doubtful such sensitive instruments exist :) 12:15:18 everything else are just contorted reasons to fit your particular preference 12:16:09 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:16:13 i would accept reasons, albeit with some reservations, such as "i used to write it that way for 20 years." 12:17:09 egnarts-ms: I generally just use (lambda) myself, never really missed using sharp quote 12:17:43 egnarts-ms: although I can see the value in complex macros, yes 12:18:02 the reason for using (lambda) is simple, it's shorter, does the same thing and there's real no reason not to use it 12:18:14 s/real no/no real/ 12:18:33 stassats: the reason i asked about "augment-environment" is that the implementation of code walkers in CL turns out to be much more difficult than in Emacs Lisp 12:18:57 yes, in Emacs Lisp there's no almost any practical need for code walking 12:19:33 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.48.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19:34 -!- zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-86-6-134.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:19:37 but nevertheless: &environment there is represented just by an alist, and "macrolet" is not a special form 12:19:42 such style preferences probably have something to do with where you learned from, I learned C from K&R and I'm the only one in my class who doesn't put opening braces on their own line. 12:19:47 egnarts-ms: all implementations support them one way are the other 12:19:55 s/are/or/ 12:20:49 stassats: seems like code walking is a similar kind of portability issue as FFi, don't you think ? 12:21:06 egnarts-ms: i see no issue 12:21:23 FFI is also supported by all implementations, but there's no CL standard for it 12:21:25 ice [~ice@222.130.133.243] has joined #lisp 12:21:39 there are many things for which there's no standard 12:22:28 yeah, but all the code walkers have to deal somehow with the problem of absence of a standardized way to manipulate with &environments 12:22:31 if you want to write portable FFI, use CFFI 12:22:54 and this may have been better, if there were a portable way to do that 12:24:08 disciple [~user@117.201.24.32] has joined #lisp 12:24:26 hello all 12:24:36 it's even better not to need a code-walker 12:30:33 stassats: agree, but there are real cases where code walking is necessary and reasonable 12:31:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:09 so, write a portable library for accessing environments 12:31:41 or find an existing one 12:31:46 minion: cl-environment 12:31:46 cl-environment: CL-ENVIRONMENT is a small library that tries to canonicalize access to some of the internals of different CL implementations. http://www.cliki.net/cl-environment 12:32:12 well, i don't know what that one actually does 12:32:13 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:20 the description is vague 12:34:50 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:50 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:35:08 -!- egnarts-ms 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12:58:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:59:19 ngz [~user@224.14.99.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:38 stassats: it's also exclusively available through debian and clocc, which doesn't inspire much confidence. 13:01:22 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:03:23 -!- kushal is now known as drunkencoder 13:06:20 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:37 rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:11:12 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:17 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:13:21 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:48 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-108.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:09 -!- ngz 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This way, you could loop, incrementing the negative index until it becomes 0, to process the whole field. 13:52:34 Nowadays, with pipelined processors and cache memory, and with compiler to deal with fields and array bounds for you, base+increment is used more often. But sometimes to optimize a loop, using negative indexes can still be useful. 13:53:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:22 Notice that lisp implementations using low-tags will often use negative indexes to get the real address of an object. If you use the low tag 3 to denote conses, then -3(a0) may be one slot and 1(a3) the other slot of a cons cell (the cdr MAY also be more efficiently stored at -3(a0) than at 1(a0), depending on your cache lines). 13:55:17 -!- disciple [~user@117.201.24.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:15 disciple [~user@117.201.24.32] has joined #lisp 14:01:10 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has joined #lisp 14:02:47 -!- sepi [dndgo7lc1h@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:34 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@202-159-134-72.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:03:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 14:05:02 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-031-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:50 -!- fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:12 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:15 fsmunoz [~user@bl10-232-193.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:07:49 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:08:45 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:08:49 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:52 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:07 -!- pnpuff [~user@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:26 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 14:18:09 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:31 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:40 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:52 punee_ [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:59 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:59 -!- punee_ is now known as punee 14:24:20 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-213-3.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:26:48 pavelpenev: in the old unix sources, they had comments signaling recursive functions. Recursion is hard. 14:31:32 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:32:02 hi,how can i output a very large number to a file.the (with-open-file (out "/tmp/prime" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(princ (1- (expt 2 43112609)) out)) is to slow 14:32:05 i'm using sbcl 14:32:46 cfy: don't write it. write the symbolic expression instead. 14:33:20 cfy: when you write maths, you don't write billions of digits, you write 2³¹¹²-1. 14:33:25 Then do the same in lisp. 14:33:37 (with-open-file (out "/tmp/prime" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(princ '(1- (expt 2 43112609)) out)) 14:34:09 If you need the value, you can always do (eval (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents "/tmp/prime")). 14:34:28 pjb: yeah,but i just want the results :) 14:34:31 s/princ/prin1/ 14:34:39 Then wait. 14:34:59 pjb: okay,thank you. 14:35:05 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:35:21 hi, can I make sbcl read \u-escaped strings (for unicode)? 14:35:34 e.g. "\u0430" 14:36:52 pjb: when i execute (with-open-file (out "/tmp/prime" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(princ (1- (expt 2 43112609)) out)) in slime,then when i type C-c C-b,the slime doesn't interrupt.how does this happen? 14:37:23 cfy: depends on the implementation, but I'd expect most of them not to be interruptable during bignum operations. 14:38:40 pjb: oh 14:39:40 You could be smart, and write it as (progn (princ "#b" out) (princ (make-string 43112608 :initial-element #\1) out)) 14:39:54 pjb: but (1- (expt 2 43112609)) is very fast,maybe it cannot be interruptable when it's outputing 14:40:33 When you write it in base TEN, then you have to do a base conversion, and this takes O(number of digits) divisions on O(number of digits) bignums. 14:40:45 s/bignums/-sized bignums/ 14:41:01 The problem is the base conversion. 14:41:17 oh...got that. 14:41:55 If you convert it to octal or hexadecimal it'd be O(n), not O(n²), since no division would be needed then (if the implementation optimize those bases). 14:41:59 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:42:41 Do you really need the decimal digits of this number? 14:43:18 No human being will ever read them. Machines will be much happier with the base-two representation. 14:43:23 pjb: not in practice,just for fun :) 14:43:27 or the symbolic representation. 14:43:47 cfy: perhaps you're in the south hemisphere and you need the heath from your computer? :-) 14:44:19 pjb: haha 14:44:41 Now, 2e16/1e9 = 2e7 ~= O(one year) of computing time. 14:44:52 You should be hot for the winter. 14:45:55 cfy: why do you think we use big primes for cryptography? ;-) 14:47:23 pjb: you are right :) 14:51:22 pjb: (format nil "~x" bignum) is as fast as (format nil "~d" bignum) on sbcl 14:51:24 While you can multiply digits of a big number in parallel (and sum the partial results at the end), AFAIK there's no way to do divisions in parallel. 14:51:36 coder``: you mean as slow as. :-) 14:51:53 pjb: yeah definitely slow 14:52:37 ~B, ~X, ~2R, ~4R ~8R, ~16R and ~32R could avoid using divisions. 14:54:39 pjb: but still there is almost no performance difference, so the only way to go is using symbolic expressions 14:55:39 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:55:53 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:57:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:09 Writing it to display or file will take more time of course. 14:59:31 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:59:43 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:11 pjb: a schemer tell me racket output 2^43112609-1 takes 58 seconds on his i5 computer 15:00:43 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@188.93.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:52 does anyone know how to define a com-autojoin command for beirc ? 15:01:22 cause the autojoin does not work here, and i wanted to make an autojoin command for that purpose, after connection is established.... 15:04:37 There's one way to parallelize that division: it's to pre-compute 1/10 with enough significant digits, and use a parallized bignum multiplication. 15:07:59 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:11:51 People use beirc? :O 15:12:34 when use this http://codepad.org/gtnT6dXK in racket,it takes 58 seconds to output the result,but when use (defun foo() (with-open-file (out "/tmp/prime" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create)(format out "~B" (expt 2 43112609)))) in sbcl,it seems take more than 10 minutes to output the result 15:13:18 so there is not a easy way to output the result to a file fast? 15:14:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.47.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:40 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-108.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:48 but ecl is fast... 15:15:06 pjb: on this ecl is much faster than sbcl. 15:15:14 real time : 10.987 secs 15:15:32 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-47-212.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 Yes, it must use a better bignumb library. 15:18:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.42.63] has joined #lisp 15:18:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.42.63] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:18:37 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 15:20:42 oh,it seems that sbcl is not the 'best' implement :D 15:22:01 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:22:26 clisp gives *** - overflow during multiplication of large numbers on this problem. 15:22:58 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has joined #lisp 15:25:20 pjb: clozure cl seems need a large time to do this... 15:29:31 khaije|minder [~user@unaffiliated/khaije1] has joined #lisp 15:29:41 hi all 15:29:49 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:17 hi 15:32:24 I'm trying to get a sense of the community purchase between GCL and CLISP... as someone new to lisp and trying to learn is there a better reference implimentation for me to work on? 15:32:27 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C1BEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:46 sbcl or ccl 15:33:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:33:21 GCL is the worst possible choice 15:33:41 lol, I'm glad I asked 15:33:42 Clisp is not the best, but passable 15:33:44 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:28 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 15:34:32 so how can I best start to understand the reasons for this, since it sounds like sbcl ~ ccl > clisp > gcl 15:35:00 khaije|minder: I explained it: it depends on the algorithms used for bignum division or base conversion. 15:35:19 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:35:44 To get 10 seconds, you need to replace the divisions /10 of the bignums by parallel multiplications by precomputed 1/10. 15:36:05 pjb: oh 15:36:26 khaije|minder: sbcl and ccl are actively developed and produce faster code, clisp is less active and produces slower code 15:36:35 slime supports better SBCL and CCL 15:36:37 or in the case of exponent of two - bases, you need to use a O(n) (princ (aref (ldb (incf)))) algorithm. 15:36:45 pjb: that was directed at someone else? 15:36:45 svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:36:57 -!- svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 15:36:58 No. 15:37:17 GCL doesn't implement full Common Lisp, is not maintained for ages 15:37:51 -!- coder`` [~user@p54919033.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:52 khaije|minder: Ah, well, you just connected. We were comparing implementations for writing bignums. 15:38:11 For this purpose, ecl > sbcl > ccl > clisp 15:38:20 khaije|minder: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 15:38:53 khaije|minder: The lesson is that the various implementations are good in various domains, for various different things. So you cannot ask for the best implementation in absolute. It all depends on what you're doing. 15:39:00 ecl uses gmp, that's hard to beat 15:39:14 khaije|minder: and for example, the best implementation for developing and the best implementation to deliver to some customers are not necessarily the same. 15:39:16 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:29 I still don't have the result of (foo) on ccl :-) 15:39:32 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:19 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 sbcl is full of bugs and needs monthly releases. clisp is stable (almost no bugs) and needs only yearly releases at most. 15:40:34 ;-) 15:40:42 i like your imaginary world 15:41:14 pjb: but we can use cl-gmp in sbcl 15:41:21 pjb: sbcl is full of bugs ? 15:41:31 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:36 Why else would it need montly releases? 15:41:47 oh... 15:42:09 because it receives new features? improves performance? documentation? 15:42:19 mkay, well excepting GCL (b/c it doesn't fully impliment the standard) is the implimentation difference something of great relevance to someone wanting simply to learn CL ? 15:42:51 khaije|minder: well, it's better to learn on the implementation you're planning to use in the future, but otherwise, they're all good 15:43:06 New features? Where's the partial evaluator? the tree shaker? the global analysis? The debugger that let me access variables in frame by mere reference in the REPL just like clisp? 15:43:25 Can it compile to GPU now? 15:45:05 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 -!- drunkencoder is now known as kushal 15:45:14 pjb: how about ccl? 15:46:05 All the CL implementations are good, but good is not a scalar, it's a high-dimension vector. 15:47:03 For example currently I'm writing code for MacOSX, and ccl is good for that. 15:47:09 is confusing new-comers pleasing for you? 15:47:21 My advice to beginners is to use clisp. 15:47:36 you're biased 15:48:20 http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 15:48:55 what? you need a debugger, i thought you don't produce bugs 15:49:17 for beginners :-) 15:53:00 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C1BEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:55 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 15:54:22 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b0448.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:42 I appreciated the advice and am looking forward to digging in. I think I'll start with clisp (with sbcl for comparison). 16:02:46 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:06:34 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-138-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:06:39 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-106.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:34 bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-248.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 16:13:03 mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 16:13:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-78-118-138.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 16:13:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:13:37 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:54 kwmiebach [kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:01 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 16:18:13 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:19:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.42.63] has joined #lisp 16:19:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.42.63] has quit [Changing host] 16:19:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:19:43 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:04 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-248.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:27 punee_ [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:14 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:21:14 -!- punee_ is now known as punee 16:21:20 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 -!- kanru [~kanru@209.118.182.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:24:27 bitonic [~user@host86-154-96-223.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-140-189.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:26:42 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl10-138-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:26:50 -!- arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:27:20 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl5-225-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:27:23 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl5-225-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:43 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-96-223.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:07 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:28:56 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 16:28:57 bitonic [~user@host86-154-96-223.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:14 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 disciple` [~user@117.201.24.32] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.88.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:51:37 -!- disciple [~user@117.201.24.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:42 -!- ngz [~user@224.14.99.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:55:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 -!- disciple` [~user@117.201.24.32] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:00:08 disciple [~user@117.201.24.32] has joined #lisp 17:01:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:49 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:31 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:34 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:04:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:42 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:02 Does anyone try to render rotated text using clx XRender? 17:08:22 asvil: you might have more luck in #lispgames 17:08:31 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:22 lisp games? 17:09:34 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:09 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:20 http://www.cliki.net/IDE still lists ILISP (vs SLIME) safe to remove the ILISP portion? 17:11:33 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 17:12:23 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:31 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:12:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:14:41 ryankask [~ryan_lang@5ad6f4b6.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:03 Hotroot [~hotrootso@pool-71-106-162-243.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:17 Hello Lispians 17:15:35 I'm sure you get this question so much that you want to vomit, but I'm trying to figure out what strain of LISP to learn 17:15:46 is it okay to ask about project related to common lisp? i.e. quicklisp and quickproject 17:15:57 ryankask: yes 17:15:59 this channel is for common lisp, hotroot, so that's the answer you'll probably get 17:16:04 Oh 17:16:25 Hopefully if I ask, someone will be unbiased enough to give a good answer =) 17:16:46 i just created a project with quickproject and was able to load it using (ql:quickload "projectijustmade") ... what made that possible? 17:17:06 I'm looking for the "enlightening" strain of LISP. The one that blows people's minds. I was looking at Clojure before, but that seems to be more practical than enlightening, or am I misunderstanding? 17:17:09 Hotroot, scheme is especially nice and small for learning with. 17:17:12 also, elisp. 17:17:29 but if you're not pusillanimous, you should be able to handle commonlisp. 17:17:29 Hotroot: Common lisp is more practical 17:17:30 ryankask: (pushnew "/path/to/project" asdf:*central-registry*) 17:17:35 Hotroot: there are roughly three variants to consider, i guess. common lisp is obviously the best (it's apparently not always as clean as scheme, though it's the one that works well in practice). scheme is the second bigger one, it's theoretically cleaner. clojure is the new hippy "we're also a lisp" language which doesn't deserve to exist. 17:17:57 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 17:18:31 I liked the idea of Clojure, but I can see why others wouldn't. So scheme is more enlightening, and Common is most practical? 17:18:35 Hotroot: towards the enlightening, i think you can get all that and then some in common lisp. 17:18:50 Hotroot: as somebody who read a Buddhist blog once, enlightenment isn't some moment of realization, its every single moment you experience, cleaning your toilet is enlightenment, and just writing practical lisp code is enlightenment, everything else is just somebody selling their own little version of enlightenment to you 17:18:52 ryankask: 2nd way is making link for your project directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects 17:19:04 Hotroot, think of it as a very clean model of lisp, with hardly any warts. 17:19:06 Hotroot: maybe you should just read SICP. the things people seem to find "enlightening" are quite possible in CL, though. 17:19:20 so you can hold the entire language in your head. the old scheme spec manuals were only about 60 pages. 17:19:23 the entire thing. 17:19:27 bjorkintosh: you mean, scheme? 17:19:34 whereas commonlisp is 1000. 17:19:39 yes, scheme madnificent. 17:19:43 *madnificent* thinks you can learn more from common lisp as from scheme 17:20:04 asvil: okay so quickproject doesn't actually make the symlink for you. when i restarted slime i couldn't quickload the package again 17:20:06 I know I wont get pure enlightenment from chapter one, but everyone recommends "LISP" as a learning experience, and I don't know which one they mean 17:20:07 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:17 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:34 Hotroot: that's because they don't actually use lisp for much of anything. 17:20:47 Not looking too much for practicality, just a learning experience 17:20:50 Hotroot, it's like recommending shakespeare. 17:20:52 Hotroot: I started with scheme, gave up and came back to python, then learned clojure, loved it, now that i learned common lisp, i hate every single other language 17:21:12 Hotroot: learning is more from books than from languages. I think you're looking nfor SICP. it's online. 17:21:13 no one reads the entire thing, they just remember bits of it. 17:21:23 SICP? 17:21:26 Bike: greatly depends on his background 17:21:41 My main language is JavaScript, if that's what you mean 17:21:43 Bike: SICP might just be the worst thing to read, if you already know other languages 17:21:46 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, an old MIT textbook. 17:21:58 Hotroot, it's a book about writing interpreters and whatnot. 17:22:01 Hotroot: then i'd go for practical common lisp 17:22:03 mostly for eggheads. 17:22:33 Hotroot, i'd recommend starting with touretzky's book "common lisp: a gentle guide to symbolic computation". 17:22:40 it is very readable and quite enjoyable to boot. 17:22:41 Hotroot: it's an easy read, but it goes rather fast. it seems like Land of Lisp could also be up your alley. though i think it doesn't explain things in great detail. 17:22:42 Scheme is smaller, right? 17:22:55 Hotroot: start with "Practical Common Lisp" for CL and "The Scheme Programming Language" for Scheme 17:23:00 Hotroot: yeah, but you don't need to know the complete language to use it... so it's mostly irrelevant 17:23:08 Hotroot, scheme reference manual: 60 pages or so. commonlisp: 1000 pages and counting. 17:23:11 both are available online 17:23:14 Which is closer to "pure" lisp, or is that even a thing? 17:23:16 *disciple* back to lurking 17:23:28 bjorkintosh: have you seen rakets documentation? 17:23:37 Well if scheme is that much smaller, I do prefer smaller languages 17:23:37 racket is not scheme :D 17:23:39 bjorkintosh: and why on earth would that matter? it's like saying java is huge because it has the java API... nobody cares about AWT anymore, so no one is going to learn it... 17:23:44 cl 1000 pages also contains standard library, so kernel part of cl less than 1000p 17:23:51 contain* 17:23:54 madnificent, right indeed. cl is still a large language. 17:24:14 As long as the core isn't huge. I'm learning C++, I know how to strain out excess bullshit 17:24:16 bjorkintosh: for the amount of features you get, it is not bigger than scheme. you are putting up a smokescreen 17:24:19 Hotroot, besides that, its likely there's a scheme implemented in your favorite programming language, so you can see the entire thing from different perspectives. 17:24:29 bjorkintosh: give me a practical scheme that doesn't have AT least a 1000 pages of extentions, and i accept the fact that scheme is smaller than CL :) 17:24:43 well, i personally didn't start from scheme. i jumped directly to cl so... 17:24:55 pavelpenev, it'a racket, i tell you! 17:25:22 common lisp seems to be more mature to me. and there are great resources about it to learn more and more of the language. 17:25:27 -!- zmv is now known as ZMV 17:25:33 Is CL the most used? 17:25:44 If someone says "I made it in LISP" CL is what they mean? 17:25:55 Hotroot, ostensibly. 17:25:59 usually, sbcl, or clisp. 17:25:59 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-96-223.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:26:04 or cmucl or something else. 17:26:07 That's always confused me. Was there ever a "core" lisp? 17:26:11 more than likely, they wrote their own. 17:26:12 Hotroot: do remember though, many lispers would like a slightly different lisp. some go around and implement something different. in that sense Paul Graham used to promote common lisp, until he rolled his own Arc (which was the cool thing to learn before Clojure), it mostly died. 17:26:26 Hotroot, yes. many different ones. the current one being ANSI common lisp. 17:26:34 Hotroot: no, LISP means 1960s lisp, Lisp would mean modern common lisp 17:26:52 -!- ZMV is now known as zmv 17:26:54 Is 1960's lisp still viable to learn? 17:27:00 Hotroot: oh, the original lisp 1.5 manual can be found online (you'll have to search, but i got hold of it somewhere) and that's cool to read... given it's the 60's and realizing you're seeing features Java didn't have 'till their last release. 17:27:07 Hotroot, if you're willing to read a bunch of mccarthy's papers. 17:27:10 it doesn't look the same anymore. 17:27:30 it's still easily translatable. and that's what makes it so brilliant. 17:27:33 Hotroot: only if you program emacs :) 17:27:36 Hmm. Seems a shame, like how China has 4 languages across the regions. 17:27:40 Hotroot: but lisp has come a long way... newer lisps do have more features than what you'll see there. but it can be an interesting read nonetheless (code written in the original lisp 1.5 should still run in common lisp). 17:28:18 Hotroot: good analogy. "pure lisp" makes about as much sense as "pure chinese". 17:28:22 Hotroot, so in effect, lisp was created in '59. it is still a completely viable language today, and will remain so for a long time to come, thanks to its mathematical roots. 17:28:42 So, in terms of size and libraries, Scheme is a bit more like C, and CL is C++? CL may be considered "big" but it's stuff you would need to track a library for in C anyway? 17:28:45 so it is absolutely worth your time to learn it. 17:28:59 I'm definitely going to learn 1 strain of it 17:29:00 sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:29:11 Hotroot, learn commonlisp. 17:29:19 all the other ones will seem obvious after that. 17:29:20 bjorkintosh: that doesn't look like a solid reasoning. the relevance depends on the language which arised around lisp. next to it. like java. if they would have been better, lisp would now be irrelevant. 17:29:38 i thought lisp was dead, madnificent :P 17:29:39 s/the language/the languages/ 17:29:44 kidding, of course. 17:29:44 Hotroot: Common Lisp will give you some nice perspective on OO. It's a different way to spin it than C++ is doing for ya. 17:29:48 bjorkintosh: how dare you! :P 17:30:01 Hotroot: scheme will not do that.. Well maybe there is some library for it. :) 17:30:44 -!- wbooze is now known as homie 17:30:44 Hotroot, lisp is a functional language, an OO language, and a language which gets re-written in itself more often than any other language. 17:30:46 Hotroot: also if you learn scheme, and decide to do real work in CL, you'll need to be deprogrammed eventually 17:30:48 it's kinda neat that way. 17:30:52 Hotroot: and next to OO (which is awesome), there are a ton of other things that will clear up the concept of programming. it takes a while to learn though. grab practical common lisp (free online) and start reading. you'll appreciate it afterwards 17:31:23 pavelpenev: I'm just learning for a learning experience, I don't think I'll ever do "real work" in lisp 17:31:23 It took me a while to deprogram myself from scheme and appreciate CL 17:31:33 Hotroot, keep telling yourself that. 17:31:42 once you learn it, you'll be itching to do something with it. 17:31:43 Hotroot: Thats what I thought too :) 17:32:10 Hotroot: then it may be wise not to learn it... you'll see other languages by their true nature and you will not understand why they have such limited expressivity. 17:32:15 I just never see anything made with LISP, so I'm not very optimistic 17:32:35 Hotroot, that's because they're not cheap or free enough for you! 17:32:38 Hotroot: the amount of users doesn't say much about the applicability of the language itself ;) 17:32:42 madnificent: That's quite true.. never have I had an urge to have a good macro system as much as when I'm writing code in something not lisp :) 17:33:02 schmx: it's when you /don't/ have it, that you miss it :P 17:33:05 I think I get a better view of languages than the average person from using ASM 17:33:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-109-205-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:33:08 Hotroot: not many 0.99$ apps are written in lisp, no 17:33:28 Hotroot, that's not correct. assembly language will not give you the same insights as you'll gain from lisp. 17:33:43 Hotroot: either case, even learning it for the enlightenment of it is interesting. but it deserves a small warning. 17:33:43 I mean from a what the machine is doing standpoint 17:33:51 Hotroot: a comercial lisp enviroment can cost thousands of dollars, you don't write crapware with that 17:34:04 I don't only use crapware =P 17:34:05 Hotroot, but there have been schemes and lisps in silicon! 17:34:11 I just mean I don't think I've seen anything made in it 17:34:19 pavelpenev: there are free lisps, the fact that there are expensive ones isn't relevant for the 99 cent apps. one could write things like that in, say ECL. 17:34:42 madnificent: sure 17:34:45 You can write Android apps in Clojure too 17:34:50 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:34:56 Hotroot: yes, but they take ages to start... 17:35:00 Hotroot, there are 1000s of businesses out there you've never heard of whose products you've never seen, but they're still very much alive. 17:35:19 it's the typical java-like thing: "look we can do X" even though the implementation of X tends to be horrible, for some reason it counts as an argument 17:35:20 those who use lisp, tend to be hush-hush about it. 17:35:29 i can run CCL on my smartphone too... 17:36:02 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:36:02 i can do conses in my head. 17:36:04 does that count? :D 17:36:05 Hotroot: also, for mobile app development, i'd stick to your javascript skills :) 17:36:14 bjorkintosh: NO! :P 17:36:20 java! not javascript, madnificent. 17:36:29 bjorkintosh: no, javascript! 17:36:33 for android? 17:36:34 HTML5 + JS is becoming a big thing mobile 17:36:47 incf Hotroot 17:36:49 that AWFUL language is now a frigging virus, i tell you! 17:36:53 Infinitely faster to write basic apps in it 17:37:01 don't you mean (incf Hotroot)? :P 17:37:19 bjorkintosh: outside parentheses are implied on IRC, as i have been told :) 17:37:27 (oh right). 17:37:34 Hotroot: there's a CL to javascript compiler, by the by. 17:37:37 bjorkintosh: nice comeback 17:37:44 I'd end it with a close-paren 17:37:45 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:47 Hotroot, there is an interesting link between javascript and scheme btw. 17:37:49 Bike: you mean parenscript? 17:38:07 yes. 17:38:13 I enjoy writing my own JS. If anything I would want a JS to X interpretter 17:38:17 Bike: that's not by far a common lisp compiler... 17:38:31 Oh, yeah, I misspoke. 17:38:49 madnificent: Yes, that's probably perfectly safe to remove mention of ilisp (apart from an historical paragraph). You could also ask on cll if anybody still use it, but I doubt it. 17:38:50 Hotroot: yeah, that changes when you learn more expressive languages. but i had the same thing with some other languages i knew in the past... 17:39:06 Hotroot, ever heard of autocad? 17:39:19 pjb: thanks, i'll throw it out 17:40:01 Hotroot, bjorkintosh: never mind autocad, they used lisp to make special effects for LOTR :) 17:40:11 for the longest time, its main scripting language was autolisp. 17:40:23 did they? pavelpenev source? 17:40:25 For what I use it for, I think JS is fine. 17:40:28 bjorkintosh: nope 17:40:39 bitonic [~user@host86-138-100-46.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:42 (heard of autocad I mean) 17:41:00 bjorkintosh: sure, give me a minute 17:41:07 it's only the most popular x86 cad program since forever. 17:41:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:41:16 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:42:01 bjorkintosh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirai_(software) 17:42:14 Hotroot: it's the most common thing for designing architectural stuff. so if you've ever been in an airplane, or if you've ever been in, say, a house, you should thank autocad for working correctly :) 17:42:29 Hotroot: now hop on and start reading already, there's a world of miracles ahead! 17:43:07 Still comparing Scheme to CL =P 17:43:18 More like a world of wikipedia ahead, lol 17:43:37 Hotroot, lisp begat scheme. 17:43:39 so start with lisp. 17:43:44 Hotroot: how old are you? 17:43:46 Hotroot: learn the one from which you can learn the most, learn lisp 17:43:50 Hotroot: if you'll be a programmer, you'll know both Common Lisp, emacs lisp and scheme. 17:43:54 Hotroot: in the words of the great Henry Rollins: "Knowledge without mileage is bullshit" :) 17:44:32 Hotroot: you will use emacs lisp to customize your main tool, emacs. You will use scheme to read sicp or "The Little Schemer" and do the exercises. And you will use Common Lisp to write your programs and scripts. 17:44:52 Hotroot: and if you want to be paid, you'll be writing javascript or php like anybody else. 17:45:06 Hotroot, there's no further convincing. are you going to drink the kool-aid or not? 17:45:22 there's only one glass. it's neither half full, nor half empty. 17:45:27 Haha. I am comparing them to decide which will teach me more 17:45:36 (the drink is in parenthesis). 17:45:45 Hotroot: common lisp will teach you most 17:45:46 Hotroot, it's impossible to decide that at this point. 17:45:48 Yes, I do intend to code JS for my job 17:45:50 Hotroot: They will both teach you a ton, most of it overlapping. 17:45:51 Hotroot: If you're serious about it, learn CL, since then you'll know both emacs lisp and scheme. 17:46:07 And to answer 100 lines back, I am nearing in on my 18th 17:46:08 (well the only thing that scheme has that CL doesn't have is continuations (call/cc)). 17:46:17 Hotroot: both are red pills. take em both! 17:46:24 Yep. 17:46:41 Hotroot: for fun have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 17:47:09 Is CL still being worked on? 17:47:14 Sure. 17:47:20 sbcl has montly release. 17:47:21 pavelpenev, that's interesting. thanks for the link. 17:47:42 pavelpenev, do you know if there's a repo somewhere for the old symbolics software like s-geometry? 17:47:46 it would be neat to look at. 17:47:47 We're waiting for hands to target CL implementations to iOS, Android, RaspberryPi, etc. 17:48:06 bjorkintosh: I'm the wrong person to ask, sorry 17:48:07 Hotroot: it is a standard. there are various implementations of the standard (similar to compilers for C) and they are actively being developed. however, if you code an application in common lisp now, it'll still run in 10 years. 17:48:22 or in 40 years. 17:48:32 Hotroot: 18??? and you still haven't decided??? learn both. and clojure. and prolog. and ML. 17:48:33 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128032159.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:38 pity. it would be a fun archive to look at. 17:48:45 and haskell. 17:48:48 and forth. 17:48:55 and lisp 1.5. 17:49:02 I'm not swamping myself with languages, I'm going to focus on about 5 17:49:07 bjorkintosh: why would you learn lisp 1.5 after common lisp? 17:49:16 madnificent, it'll take 10 minutes. 17:49:16 Majority of my focus is on JS right now, so I can get a job soon 17:49:19 Hotroot: see http://longnow.org/ and http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 17:49:43 bjorkintosh: the manual was, what?, 100 pages? i needed some time :P 17:49:45 Ralith: Sorry I have been MIA. Finally merged your request. Hoping life settles down a bit in the next week or so (D starts a job, and V gets a nanny). 17:50:06 madnificent: you wouldn't "learn" LISP 1.5. You'd have a look at it for fun and love of history. 17:50:24 pjb: true 17:50:26 madnificent, 105. the relevant portions are about 70 pages. 17:50:27 Hotroot: both CL and Scheme have well maintained implementations. CL typically are native code compilers. 17:50:31 it's pretty tiny. 17:51:10 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has joined #lisp 17:51:16 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.59.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:27 disciple: Ah, I do like compilation 17:51:52 Hotroot: heres all the lisp "enlightenment" you'll need: http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/lisp-as-the-maxwells-equations-of-software/ Now that we got that out of the way, get started on using lisp for cool shit :) 17:52:45 Ooh, GNU has a CL compiler 17:53:15 Hotroot: two actually 17:53:40 Hotroot: most people here use a compiler with more freedom (SBCL) 17:53:59 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-100-46.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:54:06 Ah 17:54:19 Hotroot: but CLISP is good in some places! 17:54:33 kanedank [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56:33 So how did Scheme affect JavaScript? 17:57:45 Hotroot: there are also a bunch of nice videos of lisp programmers in action... 17:57:55 -!- ryankask [~ryan_lang@5ad6f4b6.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:58:21 Hotroot: javascript is like an old scheme on top of which they bolted a java-like syntax (which made it more easily accepted by traditional programmers) 18:00:06 Apparently I have a bad idea of LISP then, because I can't see how JS is that related 18:00:25 the first implementation of JS was written in CL 18:01:03 I think jwz wanted to implement a lisp ala Elisp in Mozilla but the suits insisted to have a Java like syntax 18:01:04 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable063.5-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:01:06 Is it because of closures and first class functions? 18:01:31 who cares about javascript, let's talk about CL 18:02:11 Well, if I'm learning a new language, and the one language I know quite well is related to it, I would like to know howso 18:02:20 Hotroot: those were things that made it higher-order, so to some extent, yes. it also lacks a saparate namespace for functions and variables, which is something scheme has too. 18:02:25 Hotroot: hop over to #scheme ;) 18:02:32 Hotroot: how about this: 18:02:36 Hotroot: it doesn't really matter 18:03:01 stop trying to figure out what each car does, and just start driving the car. hop over to the PCL and start reading. 18:03:02 it's a bad idea to compare languages when you're only trying to learn it 18:03:22 Hotroot: simpler would be to pick a task and code it in the language under study picking up idioms along the way. 18:03:40 dim, it was't jwz. it was be 18:03:54 I'm a research whore, it's just what I do 18:04:19 I am going to read PCL in a bit though 18:04:25 bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-158.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:27 you mean "useless-facts whore"? 18:04:30 OR. read touretzky, Hotroot. 18:04:31 Hotroot: when i was in your position in high-school the sicp video lectures gave me what you seem to desire: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL091C8E590F31B314 18:04:31 On the occasion of my 30th tweet, I'd like to plug my new CL-centric https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft here for a second and last time. I think there's something interesting in there for every lisper. This is a great outlet for many things I've been meaning to say for years but didn't find appropriate occasions for. 18:04:41 i haven't seen a better introduction to lisp than touretzky. 18:04:51 err. commonlisp, ie. 18:04:55 pavelpenev: Thanks 18:05:00 from there, to infinity and beyond! 18:05:07 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:05:34 I don't think my research is useless at all. If there are multiple options, I want to understand the differences 18:05:41 Hexstream: on twitter? that's not funny 18:05:50 Hotroot, you want to understand it by reading reviews of reviews. 18:05:51 stassats: What would be funny? 18:05:53 not by eating the damned pudding. 18:06:02 and that's why you're wasting your time. 18:06:10 Hotroot: just don't take these lectures too seriously, they and SICP exist in their own little context of CS 18:06:18 Hexstream: well, i meant "not even funny" 18:06:31 I am going to read PCL, I just wanted to know some of the differences beforehand 18:06:35 pavelpenev: SICP is too basic for what Hotroot is looking for, i think 18:06:37 Hexstream: i think you can plug it again later if you want to. 18:06:40 Well, I was not aiming for comic relief anyway. 18:06:54 a serious thing would be a blog or something, 140 chars are for insert-something-derogatory 18:06:57 Hotroot, some of which differences? 18:07:10 stassats, 'twats'? 18:07:21 i know a little bit of scheme. I would like to learn common lisp too. 18:07:21 twats twitter. 18:07:31 *sellout* is a fan of Hexstreams twitter. 18:07:31 em, then go right ahead :) 18:07:40 i find emacs a little barrier to entry. 18:07:44 sellout: Thanks!! 18:08:14 maybe that's just not the right attitude 18:08:19 i'm sure i would like to read what Hexstream has to say, but 140 is a bad medium 18:08:22 chars 18:08:28 em: I'm just advertising it for a little bootstrapping boost, get the ball rolling. I'm fervently against jamming things down people's throats. 18:08:34 Hexstream: blog posts would have been more interesting indeed. what am i to make of something of 140 characters? 18:09:18 em: well, you decided to learn CL, so you're not a stranger to learning, what stops you from learning Emacs? 18:09:19 i think it's quite remarkable, that blogs which can do less than 140 characters, AND greater than that, have completely been beaten out by something called twitter. 18:09:33 bjorkintosh: is that right? 18:09:33 only on the intertubes man. 18:09:46 Hexstream: is it http://www.hexstreamsoft.com ? 18:09:51 I thought the 140 characters limit would be crushingly limiting, but I've found it surprisingly satisfying. 18:09:56 stassats, yes. twats twitter. 18:10:03 snearch [~snearch@f053009037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 stassats: ive tried using emacs a couple times in the past. Ive even worked through the tutorial a little. I respect people who find it really nice but to me it seems so convoluted. 18:10:50 Hotroot: if you check my intersection paste given above, you'd notice the differences! 18:11:10 em: that's because you didn't learn it 18:11:11 stassats: I feel like every operation is a game of twister. right hand red, left hand blue, right foot meta-x 18:11:15 em, if all you have available to use is emacs, you'll learn it. you have options, so you dither. 18:11:31 em: if you're trying to convince me that emacs is bad, you can stop trying 18:11:53 pjb: I can't read code in languages I don't know. 18:12:00 escape-meta-alt-control-shift 18:12:06 em: I've had the same feelings while learning linux, vim, emacs, lisp, and now clim, i've learned to ignore it :) 18:12:15 Not sure why, just doesn't work for me 18:12:17 pavelpenev: hehe 18:12:29 Hotroot, can you read arabic script? 18:12:36 em: if you're trying to stay in your comfort zone, you can stop trying to learn CL as well 18:13:15 em: maybe ease into it using Viper mode, assuming you find vi comfortable. 18:14:07 em: Sorry, was reading backlog. I don't understand your question. Yes, that's my site. Looking like crap at the moment unfortunately. 18:14:11 em: also, you don't have to use emacs to learn cl, but you'll eventually want to use good tools 18:14:32 i think em is trolling rather well. 18:14:34 bjorkintosh: I don't know? 18:15:00 bjorkintosh: well saying i am not sounds like what trolls always say so that is a difficult accusation to respond to. :) 18:15:11 you can say "mu" 18:15:15 mu :P 18:15:15 em, either learn it or not. nothing else. 18:15:25 Hotroot: then what purpose is there in asking for the differences between languages you don't know? 18:15:31 nothing further to discuss. if you need help learning it, that's a different issue. 18:16:11 I was complaining a little that lisp is so tied to using emacs. I do think lisp could get a bigger audience if that were not the case, on the other hand my overall attitude is positive and im still interested in lisp and I did say in my original post I respect people who like emacs :) 18:16:17 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:16:24 it's not tied 18:16:28 not at all. 18:16:34 em, lisp and emacs are not related. elisp and emacs are completely related. 18:16:41 You can use ccl on MacOSX it has hemlock integrated. 18:16:43 em: swank is a *protocol*, so write a better client than emacs and slime :) 18:16:44 they are _not_ the same at all. 18:16:51 You can use AllegroCL or Lispworks they have their own IDE. 18:16:52 yeah but doesn't everyone code lisp using slime? 18:16:52 just let Hotroot read, don't distract him with more arguments. 18:17:13 em: no. Only about 70%-80% of CL programmers use slime, I'd say. 18:17:18 so either learn it, or not. lisp is not trying to win a popularity contest anymore than mathematics is trying to win over highschool cheer leaders. 18:17:27 em: that's because slime is the best tool for writing CL, you don't have to use the best tools 18:17:29 Hotroot: oh, if/when you read something about installing libraries: quicklisp is what you should use now, it's relatively new but it's immediately become the defacto standard for fetching libraries (when they are available in quicklisp). 18:18:13 stassats: Maybe you can read my tweets and tell me which ones seem to have suffered badly from 140 characters limit and should really have been a "real" blogpost. Sure, I sometimes have to cut details, but I found you can pack the most important part of many ideas in those 140 characters, without even resorting 2 stpd abbrvs. 18:18:22 madnificent: Gotcha =) 18:18:49 Hexstream: what can i say about the tweets that you could have written if there was no such limit? 18:19:11 stassats, there is no such limit! one could simply tweet a link to a blog. 18:19:25 then, what's the point? 18:19:31 stassats: Then they wouldn't be tweets, by definition. 18:19:35 ask the celebrities. (that's a tweet). 18:19:43 em: On the emacs + lisp topic there are some other IDEs to use. And I'm thinking about having a go at making an IntelliJ plugin for lisp. 18:19:46 Well, let's put limits on blogs and web page too: we can always put links to further blogs or web page if you need more than that limit! 18:19:50 pjb: is there a Free Edition (or something practical) for AllegroCL IDE like there's for LispWorks? (some people won't try a language without and IDE) 18:19:57 bjorkintosh: celebrities post all kind of hogwash 18:20:00 Let's recode the whole Internet with CONS cells! 18:20:10 dim: ther is. 18:20:12 People post all kinds of hogwash! 18:20:16 'xactly. they oughtn't be permitted to use more than 140 characters at any one time. 18:20:18 it's perfect for them. 18:20:24 a toy to distract them. 18:20:32 pjb: ok on a quick search&browse I didn't find it, thx for the info 18:20:41 pjb: well, that's actually what's happening, an article split into 10 pages to generate pageviews 18:20:49 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21:03 dim: http://franz.com/enterprise_development_tools.lhtml 18:21:09 stassats: :-) 18:25:06 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:34:14 fger [fger@79.113.144.241] has joined #lisp 18:34:22 -!- fger [fger@79.113.144.241] has left #lisp 18:34:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.253.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:56 em, what editor do you use? 18:37:10 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has joined #lisp 18:41:14 -!- Hotroot [~hotrootso@pool-71-106-162-243.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:42:34 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:34 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:42:34 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 18:42:36 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 disciple, M-x butterfly i'm sure. 18:44:02 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:56 Raff [~Raff@187.65.194.205] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:46:29 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-158.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:49 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:49:05 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:18 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable063.5-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:52:38 asvil [~asvil@178.121.59.85] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 yo 18:58:25 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 19:05:54 jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:08:32 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:56 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:12:24 bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-158.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:42 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@84.199.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:19:48 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:22:04 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-154-103-158.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:26 -!- ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has left #lisp 19:24:10 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:28 bjorkintosh M-x butterfly is new to me. So is http://xkcd.com/378/ 19:35:42 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pgrqloebxcagnrhx] has joined #lisp 19:36:39 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:37:25 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:45 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:05 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@84.199.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:43:05 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128032159.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 any opinions on the book 'let over lambda'? 19:44:12 has anyone here read it? 19:46:36 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 19:46:38 It's a fan book. I'd rather advise another book to learn CL. 19:47:05 i know it's not a book for beginners. 19:47:42 Not beginners in programming, no. But it may motivate programmers to learn Lisp. 19:48:00 and it has nothing of value for seasoned lispers, so i don't know for whom is it inteded 19:48:28 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 19:49:07 I learned about ,. from it. 19:49:08 timack [~timack@hlfx59-1-136.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 So, there's that. 19:49:28 Now, there are a lot of people, it's probably a few people may be motivated to learn lisp by reading this book, and it's aspect may attract them to it. 19:49:35 Xach: and you now use it regularly? 19:49:52 never 19:49:58 Xach: I knew about ,. from the CLHS, and relearned about it from code (that I changed to ,@ and broke, then revered back to ,. :-) 19:50:05 s/red/rted/ 19:50:18 Xach: well, that's useful 19:50:34 stassats: ,. is like ,@ but with nconc instead of append :-) 19:50:39 yes, i know 19:50:54 is that i can't imagine ever needing it 19:51:28 then that may be a bug in your imagination, not in the book (: 19:51:57 pjb: This is not vi, this is #lisp :p 19:52:05 maybe in the old days where memory was so precious 19:52:31 sigjuice: yes :-) I was confused by the use of "," instead of "/" :-) 19:52:52 what's ",." Xach? 19:52:59 A friend of mine looked at the book and says he was put off by roaring lisp fanboyism (or something along these lines). I enjoy reading it (though may things are difficult to wrap one's head around them). 19:53:04 clhs ,. 19:53:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ,.. 19:53:06 bitonic [~user@host86-133-198-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 clhs ` 19:53:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 19:53:12 specbot: bummer 19:53:20 s/may/many/ 19:53:37 bjorkintosh: ,. is like ,@ but with nconc instead of append :-) 19:56:12 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 20:03:46 whoa, ,.! 20:03:55 I learned about ,. from #lisp. 20:04:08 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:04:51 now, never use it 20:06:57 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:07:03 dys [~user@krlh-5f71e4fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:29 I wonder if it would even have a noticeable effect in compilation time in modern lisps :) 20:07:31 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07:59 well, backquote isn't used only for macros 20:08:08 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:40 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:14:59 -!- homie [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 20:15:07 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:50 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:39 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-196-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:18:05 -!- dys [~user@krlh-5f71e4fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 20:19:34 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 20:19:52 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-231-14.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:20:01 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:21:27 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx59-1-136.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:22:37 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:25:11 bitonic` [~user@host86-138-102-119.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:10 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 20:27:13 just finished "A guided tour of CLIM". Now I hate web browsers even more :) 20:27:50 are there specific (good) reason(s) a large lisp project that supported a number of implementations would not support sbcl? 20:28:18 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-198-49.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:28:20 we're anal about some stuff that older code bases like to do. 20:28:56 anal in that they're prohibited? 20:29:05 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:07 or WARNed about. 20:29:11 JuanDaugherty: threads on windows are experimental, maybe thats a good reason? 20:29:21 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:57 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:59 well the case in point is Sneps, and I'm not much interested in lisp or other other advanced stuff on Windows 20:30:10 or Mac for that matter 20:30:30 pavelpenev: do you use clim& 20:30:32 ? 20:30:49 asvil: just started learning it yesterday :) 20:31:04 but unless I'm naively taking CL more seriously than I should, gotta be something else 20:32:09 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:19 or maybe the authors never bothered porting it because they use ACL and have licenses for their students. 20:33:23 I always have the suspicion they don't really want to make it widely available 20:33:56 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:34:04 dys [~user@krlh-5f71e4fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:28 pavelpenev: may be clim is good idea, but now it is so far from modern toolkits:( 20:35:59 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:35:59 Atomsk [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 whatabout mcclim? Did that stall out? 20:36:16 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 20:36:27 I mean mcclim - os realization. 20:36:49 -!- dys [~user@krlh-5f71e4fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:53 JuanDaugherty: mcclim ran all the examples in the paper i mentioned 20:37:57 ah, good to know 20:37:59 asvil: i don't care that it looks like crap at this point. If i want something that looks good or is more portable i will bite my tongue and write a web app or use qt. 20:38:38 dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 qt is good for using as is, any attempt to create custom widget, or modification of MVC became like a pain. 20:41:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-209.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:59 I mean cl gui framework would be really powerful in comparison with c++/other. 20:43:09 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:49 I already spend the summer reading about X, and graphics and now clim, i think I might write a very very simple gui toolkit in lisp as a course project next year, I think it might be doable, but I have a lot of project ideas and don't know what to choose. This one seems the most challenging. 20:47:06 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:48:43 -!- dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:43 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 20:49:31 The less challenging ideas include extending existing lisp software, does the eternal wisdom of #lisp have any suggestions for a 4th year CS students project? 20:50:01 dys [~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a] has joined #lisp 20:50:04 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 20:51:31 try doing something you like 20:51:44 stassats: thats the problem, i like way too many things :) 20:51:53 pavelpenev: flip n coins. 20:51:56 well, take the first one 20:52:59 ok, I'll put them in a list and use alexandria:radrom-elt :) 20:54:33 hrs_ [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 21:04:01 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@84.255.141.82] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:06:21 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:06:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 21:08:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:49 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:09:07 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:17 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:13:42 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:15:46 are cl.net and cliki the main lisp repos these days? 21:16:06 what is a repo? 21:16:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:17:02 JuanDaugherty: i think there's more on github, codewise 21:17:10 package repository, like hackage, cpan, symfhub, etc. etc. 21:17:20 JuanDaugherty: cliki seems to be a good information resource. i also check planet.lisp.org, and Xach's feed about new lisp projects on github. 21:17:51 JuanDaugherty: also, the list of systems available in quicklisp can be interesting (if you don't use quicklisp yet, do so now) 21:17:57 got it thx 21:18:09 JuanDaugherty: cliki doesn't have any code, common-lisp.net doesn't fit the description of cpan or hackage 21:18:59 stassats, ack 21:19:04 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:20 JuanDaugherty: the best equivalent of cpan would probably be quicklisp, as madnificent said, you should definitely look into it first 21:19:41 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:54 "equivalent" is too generous to quicklisp 21:20:00 i use ql antoszka just checking because the web result was especially murky 21:20:05 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:10 quicklisp is better 21:20:24 apparently there is no equivalent for CL for what those other langs have 21:20:43 web result? what's that? 21:20:47 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@9.24.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:21:07 which is the status quo ante but as I said wanted to get other opinion 21:21:50 JuanDaugherty: making it better would be a big effort, but i'm sure people would appreciate it if you'd do so. 21:22:37 yes, too big for me 21:23:24 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b0448.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:44 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 21:27:04 antoszka: quicklisp is a distribution, whereas cpan and hackage are a hosting site 21:27:33 fe[nl]ix: Obviously  the installation tool is what they have somewhat in common. 21:27:47 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:47 Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:54 install 21:28:05 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:29:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:30:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:11 -!- khaije|minder [~user@unaffiliated/khaije1] has left #lisp 21:31:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.127.212] has joined #lisp 21:31:40 using format, how would I convert "0x06D2" to decimals? 21:31:53 you won't use format for that 21:32:00 format is for printing, not for parsing strings 21:32:52 (parse-integer "0x06D2" :radix 16 :start 2) => 1746 21:32:53 read-from-string 21:33:05 ah I see 21:33:14 thanks 21:33:23 and internal representation of integers is not decimal 21:33:30 they're just print that way 21:33:32 printed 21:34:15 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:16 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:34:16 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 21:35:23 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-14.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:34 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.13.234] has joined #lisp 21:37:59 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@9.24.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 21:40:03 dude, whoever did the new com-connect for mcclim..... 21:40:18 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:40:25 no auto-join possible.... 21:40:41 mcclim can join something? 21:40:47 that's interesting 21:41:41 haven't you seen my screenshots ? 21:42:05 perhaps you're talking about beirc? it's not part of mcclim 21:42:06 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42:14 ah yes 21:42:31 but it uses it and cl-irc and other stuff like cl-ppcre etc.... 21:42:31 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-75.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:28 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 21:43:54 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.127.212] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:45:18 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:49:04 -!- bitonic` [~user@host86-138-102-119.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:54:28 erm yes beirc 21:58:46 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:01:01 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 22:02:16 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:19 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-031-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:58 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:46 bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-5.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:13:18 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:31 minion: memo for francogrex: "using format, how would I convert "0x06D2" to decimals?" You couldn't find the answer because you have the wrong notion about numbers. Numbers are not their representation (be it hexadecimal or decimal). They are. Once you understand the difference between numbers and representation, you understand that it's easier to go representation1 -> number -> representation2. Than representation1 -> 22:16:31 representation2. 22:16:31 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 22:16:38 minion: memo for francogrex: representation2. 22:16:38 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 22:16:43 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 22:19:10 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:16 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:27:21 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:27:58 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Quit: le mieux que je peux] 22:28:08 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:09 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:09 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:28:46 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 22:32:36 mast` [~alex@bas1-troisrivieres32-3096574097.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:32:48 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 22:32:55 -!- mast` [~alex@bas1-troisrivieres32-3096574097.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Changing host] 22:32:55 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 22:34:49 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:34:55 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:35:01 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128032159.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:00 Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:40:31 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:08 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 22:42:09 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:29 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:44:38 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:46:41 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 22:46:45 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:47:50 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 22:48:39 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 22:48:48 hello 22:49:02 disciple` [~user@117.201.24.32] has joined #lisp 22:49:04 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 I am reading CLHS and don't see description of standard slots of condition types error, seriouos-conditions, etc. 22:49:23 are the standard slots? 22:49:25 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.59.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:49:34 *there 22:49:53 no 22:50:01 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:26 *Xach* can only think of slots for simple-conditions 22:51:41 -!- disciple [~user@117.201.24.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:52:43 Xach: file-error is a serious-condition and it has a slot pathname 22:53:12 -!- Raff [~Raff@187.65.194.205] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53:18 ah 22:53:24 Xach thoughts show right direction 22:53:45 i see no direction at all 22:54:03 if the condition in question has no slots described, then it doesn't have any 22:54:10 -!- hrs_ [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:12 it's a bit difficult to find the way how (error "bla-bla") constucts condition in CLHS. 22:54:14 hrs__ [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:41 clhs error 22:54:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm 22:55:23 clhs 9.1.2.1 22:55:23 Condition Designators: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aba.htm 22:55:25 I found it.s once, but now I can not even repeat it. Browse by hiperlinks from error, conditions, designators, signal 22:55:27 now, that was easy 22:55:27 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_error.htm 22:56:09 stassats: I was browsing the Signaling Conditions chapter 22:56:17 (make-condition 'error :format-control "bla-bla" :format-arguments nil) 22:56:20 eni_ [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 22:56:20 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:23 that's how 22:56:26 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:56:33 thanks, Creating Conditions helps 22:56:48 -!- eni_ is now known as eni 22:57:00 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:21 anyway, I just wanted to create a condition class, with a message string, which will be propertly displayed by debugger for printed by FORMAT in logs 22:57:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:38 so, there should be some way to interact with debugger and format 22:57:54 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-5.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:58:50 defining pring-object method for every my condition class didn't felt right, now with your help I will subclass simple-error 22:59:17 and sorry, it's (make-condition 'SIMPLE-ERROR :format-control "bla-bla" :format-arguments nil) for ERROR 22:59:32 not all errors are simple errors 22:59:41 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:34 stassats: (error "bla-bla") creates condition the same way as far as I understand? 23:02:02 it does, but it's not the only way an error may be signalled 23:02:42 ah, yes, I understand this, thanks 23:03:16 and you can't define print-object for simple-error 23:03:48 because it's prohibited by the standard 23:04:09 arrsim [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:06:39 I wasn't going to do it for simple-error, but for my class. But why it is impossible, I mean what is prohibited: defmethod specialized on standard classes like simple-error? 23:07:05 yes, on any built-in class 23:07:50 -!- hrs__ [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:07:59 ok 23:08:01 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 23:08:01 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 23:08:03 the last point 23:08:30 thanks 23:09:15 good thing in java is that the exceptions have "cause" field (passed at constucot) 23:09:26 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:09:42 it's necessary to adopt it in CL :) 23:09:49 no thanks 23:09:56 no? 23:10:08 how can you know the cause? 23:10:20 thhe one who creates it knows 23:10:33 type of this field is exception 23:10:39 i.e. it is another exception 23:10:41 for example 23:11:05 say I have a function read-config. If there is a problem reading config it signals confir-read-error 23:11:06 antonv: there are a few _functions_ that gives some "attributes" of conditions defined by the standard, but conditions are not necessarily CLOS objects, they don't necessarily have slots, and those "attributes" may very well not be anything ressembling an instance slot or structure field. 23:11:13 conditions were specified before CLOS. 23:11:30 pjb: they are called slots, though 23:12:10 Ok. 23:12:17 the read-config implemented by reading file from file system. So when implementation have input-output-excpetion durijng read the file, it signals condition config-read-error :cause input-output-exception 23:12:33 Now you can always define a condition inheriting from a standard condition with additionnal slots. 23:12:45 input-output-exception in turn may be caused by some other error 23:12:52 so there is a chaing of error 23:13:16 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.251.190.138] has joined #lisp 23:13:18 together with standard ability of pringing stack trace of every exception, in log you have full picture 23:13:59 config-read-error: , caused by input-output-error , caused by some-other-error 23:14:07 antonv: if you just want a format-control-string and format-arguments, you can just (define-condition your-error (some-error simple-condition) ()) 23:14:16 yes 23:14:17 ok 23:14:24 thanks for help, returning to coding 23:14:34 antonv: just signal the deepest error and give a backtrace 23:14:41 there, a full picture 23:14:49 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:15:10 no, I can not always do that 23:15:27 you only want the stack trace at the debugger (or *debug-hook* hooked logger) though, if nothing handled the condition; as for the cause, your condition type can be used, or a custom slot in your custom defined conditions 23:15:59 antonv: cannot do what? 23:16:13 in this example, I can not specify that read-config signals input-output-error, because it is hidden implementation detail that it read file system, and most importantly, someone upper on stack whants to distinguish situation of log read error 23:16:19 but not any input-output-erro 23:16:54 ok, I am not selling :cause, just say it is convinient 23:17:39 nobody prevents you from adding cause slot to your condition-class 23:17:56 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:14 that's what I am doing right now )\ 23:23:37 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:25:57 but if :cause would be standartized, debugger would pring it too.. 23:25:59 print 23:26:57 debugger doesn't print conditions, the printer does, just define a print-object method 23:29:40 I wanted to say "represent", 23:29:53 btw, how to inspect the condition object signalled in slime debugger? 23:30:01 i 23:30:23 no, just RET 23:30:27 you can also use :report of define-condition 23:31:07 RET on the printed condition, or C anywhere 23:31:29 it says "Inspect in frame (evaluated):" 23:31:32 phadthai: which is the same as defining print-object 23:31:32 ... 23:31:40 antonv: you're not keeping up 23:31:42 sure 23:32:16 to inspect it in frame, it should be a local var or parameter of some function... 23:32:29 antonv: RET on condition or C 23:32:29 right? 23:32:32 i just said that 23:32:36 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:32:56 ah, great 23:33:21 i.e. http://paste.lisp.org/display/130643 23:33:43 so I can inspect my :cause 23:33:55 (error (make-condition ...)) is somewhat silly 23:36:58 phadthai: stassats means it may be (error 'unix-error :function function :errno errno :objects objects) 23:37:23 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-78.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:38:43 antonv: sure, thanks for translating :) 23:42:03 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:42:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:00 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.23.125.0] has joined #lisp 23:46:39 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.13.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:29 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:47:47 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-78.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:48:59 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-78.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:50:31 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:52:04 hrs_ [~textual@c-174-62-169-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:52:44 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54:37 -!- AdmiralBumbleB-1 [~AdmiralBu@pool-108-9-57-130.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:55:29 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:57:09 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 23:59:11 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++]