00:00:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:02:22 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-179-216.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:41 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:29 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:08:05 *|3b|* tries switching to cffi 0.10.3 and still gets slow calls to functions with foreign-enum arguments 00:09:34 <|3b|> wonder if i should compile an older sbcl so i can try older cffi 00:10:44 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:13:08 zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-86-6-134.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:39 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:48 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 00:17:19 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:56 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-167-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:23:55 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 00:24:37 -!- Eulo [~tae@78-72-37-188-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:57 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:32:53 |3b|: there's an old vpe bug that we fixed a couple years ago... it broke older builds, but, iirc the fix is obvious from the failure mode 00:33:31 <|3b|> pkhuong: you mean to run old sbcl/cffi? 00:33:49 <|3b|> or building old sbcl? 00:38:35 -!- zenbalrog [~chatzilla@adsl-98-86-6-134.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [SeaMonkey 2.10.1/20120615050225]] 00:39:00 <|3b|> probably easier to just download an old sbcl binary rather than build it either way 00:39:21 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:01 *|3b|* wonders if this has just always been incredibly slow and i just haven't done anything where it was enough of total runtime to care 00:45:30 Eulo [~no@78-72-37-188-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:41 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:45:56 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 |3b|: building old on current; old ones have code that might misuse vpe. 00:48:48 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:49:11 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:49:23 <|3b|> ok, i think at this point i'm just going to assume i imagined cffi handling enums better at some point in the past, and not bother trying to actually verify it by running old code :/ 00:50:00 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:52:24 *|3b|* guesses i have to start over my benchmarking now that i'm not wasting half my runtime calling foreign-enum-value and an unwind-protect that just calls a GF that ignores its arguments :/ 00:53:06 <|3b|> and at some point i'll have to either figure out how to fix the code in cffi that generates that or hack around it in cl-opengl 00:53:28 <|3b|> (or complain on the cffi mailing list and hope someone else fixes it :) 00:55:02 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 00:55:03 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:56:30 -!- frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quitthere's a gui emacs, i hear it's pretty good for editing sexps] 00:56:55 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:32 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:58:34 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:59:07 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 01:00:57 Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 01:03:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:04:14 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 01:07:07 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584728.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:25 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:11:20 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584728.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:12:00 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:12:23 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:06 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:22:28 ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has joined #lisp 01:22:51 <|3b|> is it permitted by the spec for SET-PPRINT-DISPATCH to not work with the default value of *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*? 01:24:12 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:24:22 UFO686 [~zhangyh@114.96.145.115] has joined #lisp 01:24:54 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 dmiles [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:12 It seems that not. 01:30:17 It says less, not less or equal. 01:30:26 clhs *print-pprint-dispatch* 01:30:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_ppr.htm 01:32:05 *|3b|* found the bug for it in ccl, which claims it is already fixed, possibly i installed it wrong or something 01:32:06 springz [~springz@118-163-74-175.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:43 *|3b|* sees the fix in the source i have, and it seems to be getting recompiled when i build a new image, but still doesn't initialize *print-pprint-dispatch* 01:40:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:42:00 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:23 |3b|: i have 1.9-dev-r15344M and it's initialized 01:42:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:43:10 <|3b|> hmm, mine calls itself 1.8-r15422M, not sure if thats older or newer 01:43:37 looks older 01:43:45 try getting it from trunk 01:44:08 <|3b|> ok, i guess the higher revision number tricked me 01:44:26 So. Say I have patches I want to do to a library.. say.. usocket. What is the SOP for doing this? I've never worked on an open source project before 01:44:48 zulu_inuoe: you find a mailing list, subscribe to it and send your patch 01:44:58 <|3b|> find a bug tracker or mailing list or maintainer, send a bug report and/or patches 01:45:52 and don't be discouraged if the answer takes longer than you expect 01:46:04 stassats, |3b|: Cool. Thanks guys! 01:46:22 <|3b|> stassats: that seems to have been it, thanks 01:53:16 -!- springz [~springz@118-163-74-175.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:55:21 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:12 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:59:24 -!- paul0 [~paul0@200.146.127.235.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 02:01:01 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:26 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 02:04:16 bloody github, can't submit my issue 02:06:12 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-jqhukaazekbbrjrn] has joined #lisp 02:07:21 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:35 had to use another browser 02:07:58 *stassats* discovered a bug in ironclad while trying to test the |3b|'s bug 02:10:54 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 02:11:03 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:12:11 <|3b|> that's what you get for testing things :/ 02:12:44 or just using things 02:12:58 <|3b|> yeah, that too 02:13:24 if only there was some compensation, like a dime every time you find a bug 02:14:47 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:15:30 that's an idea, for an open-source donation initiative, "a dime for every time you find a bug" 02:17:05 maybe a dollar would be a better incentive 02:18:01 ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:00 too bad i wouldn't be able to cash in on my own projects... 02:19:55 stassats: you would. 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[~chatzilla@91-67-216-224-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:59 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lnwgjogaytnaiyjh] has joined #lisp 05:46:17 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:46:33 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:59 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-216-224-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:48:09 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 05:50:50 bjorkintosh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACL2 05:51:17 already found that. i'm reading one of the papers. 05:51:24 i'm surprised i'd never heard of it. 05:53:03 UFO686 [~zhangyh@114.96.145.115] has joined #lisp 05:54:48 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:57:24 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 05:58:50 nostoi [~nostoi@81.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:17 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined 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[~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:57:18 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@81.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:57:31 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:58:26 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 07:58:27 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 08:01:01 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-132-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:04 -!- basho [~basho@static.76.144.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:13 I tried these instructions http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-pathname-translations.html#Setting-up-pathname-translations , but Emacs failed with "void-function slime-create-filename-translator" 08:03:32 any suggestions on what I might be doing wrong? 08:05:53 sigjuice: grep "slime-create-filename-translator" Changelog « (slime-create-filename-translator): Use slime-make-tramp-file-name. » 08:06:23 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:09:52 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-jaocnhkjzxtcssyz] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 Squee-D [~Squee-D@122-57-66-59.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:13:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.53] has joined #lisp 08:13:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.53] has quit [Changing host] 08:13:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:14:56 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:20:43 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:20:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:21:14 C-h f slime-make-tramp-file-name RET says "Old (with multi-hops) tramp compatability function 08:25:26 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:25:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 08:25:27 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 08:27:45 sigjuice: hmm there is C-h v slime-filename-translation 08:28:35 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@47319hpv099117.ikoula.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 08:30:13 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:30:34 The_third_man [~The_third@47319hpv099117.ikoula.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:15 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:53 -!- nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:37:47 Hi guys. 08:38:39 Does anyone know is there's something like standard tests or conditions to check turing-completeness of language? 08:39:47 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@55.200.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:16 not really 08:43:33 unless everything is bounded it's really hard to avoid turing completeness 08:43:47 vi macros are turing complete 08:44:43 Hm, so I need to write something like, for example brainfuck interpreter, to check it? 08:44:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:45:19 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 08:45:50 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:58 by definition, it's sufficient if you can emulate the simplest variant of a turing machine 08:46:07 write a turing machine 08:46:10 (too late) 08:46:18 Ok, thanks a lot. 08:46:51 This is that language, if you're interested: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/Microlang 08:47:11 (and it's written on lisp) 08:50:40 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:25 hmmm you should be able to implement rule 110 with that I think 08:55:19 The only one way to know it it's try to write it. 08:55:21 it has goto and if => it should be turing complete 08:55:48 I don't think that's sufficient. 08:55:50 But it will be _hard_ without syntax checker. =| 08:56:02 My language has no syntax checker. =( 08:56:11 You probably need a mutator and an allocator as well. 08:56:19 It's because I'm too lazy. 08:56:35 Zhivago: Mutator? 08:56:35 Or procedure calls. 08:56:47 How else will you rewrite the indefinitely long tape? 08:56:56 Hm. 08:57:03 But I have "functions" 08:57:06 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:d179:a91d:4c56:8e35] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:57:10 Look at $ in tutorial. 08:57:36 Then why would you need goto and if? 08:58:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer 08:59:09 Zhavigo: I didn;t understand your question. You think that goto and if is unneeded? 08:59:43 (seems that previous message is full of mistakes) 09:00:15 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:40 If you have procedure calls, you don't need goto and if for turing completeness. 09:01:09 procedure calls are not really procedure calls. 09:01:21 How ... exciting. 09:01:24 They just change the current "block". 09:01:25 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:01:28 What are procedure calls if not procedure calls? 09:01:35 But I cannot return back. 09:01:45 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:01:49 So it's more like goto. 09:02:40 Are you hoping to use this language for anything useful? 09:02:54 No. I did it just for fun. 09:03:02 Good. 09:03:34 This is an example of how "procedures" work: [(10)!^(2)$] [(11)!^] [(12)!^]. 10 and 12 will be printed, but 11 won't. 09:04:08 $ goes to block 2, so block 1 will be skipped. 09:04:32 Why do you call them procedures? 09:04:46 I don't know, they looks like procedures. 09:05:06 Anyway, next thing I'm going to add is command that pushes current block address to stack. 09:05:15 So they will be procedures. 09:06:41 your system seems a bit inspired on moore's original Forth 09:07:06 I think that the term you're looking for is 'subroutine'. 09:07:19 Procedures generally have arguments and return values and so on. 09:07:28 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:08:32 Zhivago: you need some conditional statement to be turing complete - mutation is not neccesary 09:08:48 Zhivago: take the pure lambda calculus for example 09:08:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:10:31 mal__: Maybe, I don't know a lot about Forth(it's just another stack language that looks like assembly language for me). 09:11:04 Zhivago: Yep, but I have stack, so I don't need arguments. 09:11:11 ski 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I have toplevel macros definition form (defmacro X....), in which there is defconstant form. After that, I use this macro as toplevel form. While ql:quickload code there is exception: constant is being redefined. Should I fix it by wrapping defconstant form with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)...) form? 11:10:27 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.228.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:10:42 asvil: first, I'm hoping these macros expand into a defconstant form. Second, don't use defconstant when the value isn't EQL-comparable. 11:12:27 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 11:13:01 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:58 |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:18 pkhuong: yes, forgot to say that macros expand to defconstant forms. It is used for porting C numeric constants, and I do not know better way to do it. 11:14:28 nostoi [~nostoi@81.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:59 hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@46.233.228.71] has joined #lisp 11:16:00 asvil: I must be missing something then. Can you paste the code somewhere? 11:18:47 asvil: Did you use this macros twice in the same file? 11:18:54 Lol. 11:19:31 Why I'm hitecnologys1? 11:19:50 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.219.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:51 -!- UFO686 [~zhangyh@114.96.145.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:39 pkhuong: hm, i was wrong, it is used not for numeric values, but for list of keywords. http://paste.lisp.org/+2SQX 11:21:53 hitecnologys1: no 11:21:57 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lxosgprhoyenydbd] has joined #lisp 11:22:46 asvil: don't use defconstant for vectors. Would defvar not work for you? 11:23:18 pkhuong: ok, thanks. 11:23:37 I will change defconstant to defvar. 11:24:12 Yes, do this and I hope it will work fine. 11:24:22 hitecnologys1: :) 11:24:39 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@81.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:27:15 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 11:29:27 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-yuvperadoxgssgav] has joined #lisp 11:29:28 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-yuvperadoxgssgav] has quit [Changing host] 11:29:28 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:30:26 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:33:08 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.63.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:35:51 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 11:39:58 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:44:17 -!- flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:50:53 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-irmycyvvzyggpnni] has joined #lisp 11:56:18 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:27 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:00:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@216.41.19.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:03:57 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:07 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@46.233.228.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:05:10 -!- getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@14-202-66-99.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:05:25 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.228.71] has joined #lisp 12:05:35 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:06:25 Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-225-7.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:56 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@2.28.136.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:12:29 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 12:12:57 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:09 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 12:16:31 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:17:32 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:18:43 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:19:22 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:22:03 -!- Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-225-7.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:19 Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-225-7.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:39 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:28:47 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-160-116.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:29:55 coder` [~user@p549186C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:14 treyka [~treyka@ip-188-118-20-209.reverse.destiny.be] has joined #lisp 12:37:13 |nix|` [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:32 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:38:44 -!- |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:55 kiuma [~kiuma@host58-157-static.186-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:42:10 -!- treyka [~treyka@ip-188-118-20-209.reverse.destiny.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:43:59 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:45:52 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 12:46:01 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:46:17 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 12:52:18 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:00:39 treyka [~treyka@ip-188-118-20-209.reverse.destiny.be] has joined #lisp 13:01:11 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:05:11 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 13:07:22 -!- kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:08:12 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:08:14 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:26 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:11:48 -!- RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:11:52 sellout [~Adium@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:12:14 RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:40 -!- sanjoyd [sanjoyd@nat/google/x-qfssxfxrngsiyrtm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:56 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:20:33 is there something like perl/ruby's open3 for common lisp? 13:21:04 clop: what does open3 do? 13:22:21 clop: sb-ext:run-program 13:22:22 sounds like http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs 13:22:58 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:23:50 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:26:03 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-spzrrykwwykqmdor] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.116] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.116] has quit [Changing host] 13:26:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:26:35 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:31:35 right, but that's sort of sbcl-only... clozure has its own thing, I guess... 13:32:13 clop: CCL has http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter9.4.html, which is pretty similar. 13:33:29 clop: it's not a part of the standard, different implementations offer different extensions to do what you want. 13:34:00 gotcha -- ok, thanks :) 13:34:56 isn't there a trivial-shell? 13:35:55 slucx [~lumpy_wx@221.5.81.158] has joined #lisp 13:36:11 ah, looks like fare cooked up http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/qitab/inferior-shell.git 13:36:12 hitecnologys: there cannot be any real Turing Machine in the Universe, because 1- the Universe has a finite number of particules-energy. 2- the Universe has a finite life time. Turing Machine need unbounded memory and unbounded time. 13:37:06 hitecnologys: so there will always be programs that can run and terminate on mathematical Turing Machines, but that could never run and terminate in the Universe. 13:37:35 hitecnologys: by consequence, you can write the test as: (defun turing-machine-p (whatever) (declare (ignore whatever)) NIL) 13:38:33 Yes, I know that there cannot be Turing Machine in real life. 13:39:01 But I can implement simple variant of it with finite memory. 13:39:20 LAMMJohnson [ja@cpc11-nrwh10-2-0-cust397.4-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 leoncamel [~user@219.142.133.143] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 I don't see any deference between finite memory and infinite memory. 13:40:26 With finite memory, you don't have a Turing Machine. With infinite memory you have. 13:40:53 You can easily emulate a tape with TWO stacks. You can also easily enough emulate two stacks with ONE stack. 13:41:16 err, no, not the later. 13:41:24 You can easily emulate a tape with TWO stacks. 13:42:10 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:44:34 kanru [~kanru@66.207.208.98] has joined #lisp 13:46:18 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:47:11 rrice [~ralph@adsl-69-208-0-143.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:17 -!- rrice [~ralph@adsl-69-208-0-143.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 13:47:28 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:08 hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@178.74.90.23] has joined #lisp 13:48:42 Aw, my ISP is best ISP 13:49:31 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.228.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:49:43 -!- hitecnologys1 is now known as hitecnologys 13:49:56 Damn, emacs just crashed. Hasn't done that for years :( 13:50:36 ZabaQ: Time to learn vim! 13:51:04 hitecnologys: I already know vim. :-) 13:52:00 hitecnologys, yes there can be! 13:52:17 ZabaQ: Lol, I've just started to learn Vim. =) 13:52:37 bjorkintosh: What are you talking about? 13:52:54 real life turing machines. 13:52:57 a few have been made. 13:53:43 bjorkintosh: They are not real Turing Machines. They haven't got infinite tape. 13:53:58 you just need to loop them. 13:54:09 and then they'll go around and around forever. 13:54:36 bjorkintosh: Anyway, real Turing machine must have infinite tape. 13:55:00 and infinite energy to keep it going. yes. 13:55:30 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 13:56:11 bjorkintosh: Yes, this is what I'm talking about. No one can simply build Turing machine. 13:56:34 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:00 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:58:13 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-fstbzkqxbgpzdqxo] has joined #lisp 13:58:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:58:23 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-fstbzkqxbgpzdqxo] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:21 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:26 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 since any terminating computation would require only finite tape and time, the distinction doesn't seem to important... 14:03:08 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 lop: Infinite tape, doesn't make computations infinite, it just means that RAM is infinite. 14:04:45 -!- Shrawny [~sean@ppp121-45-225-7.lns20.per1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:04 hitecnologys, i still think it can be done with a Distributed turing machine. 14:05:17 when it starts nearing the end, you take one end, and stick it to the front so that it can keep going :D 14:05:21 yes. terrible i know. 14:05:26 anyone here use acl2? 14:05:41 oh. and make it reaaaaally slow. 14:08:26 bjorkintosh: The memory will be still finite as the Universe is finite. =| 14:09:21 hitecnologys: are you sure of that? 14:09:50 einstein wasn't sure about that (only about stupidity) 14:13:45 what's the point of infinite ram? you'd never be able to access all of it... :) 14:14:06 bjorkintosh, i use acl2 14:14:09 flip214: I'm not really sure, but I'm sure that you will never get enough materials to build infinite RAM. 14:15:03 well, if cosmic expansion is really accelerating, you'll even loose your _current_ memory sometime in the future 14:15:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:15:21 whoever operates Turing's machine, must surely reside in Hilbert's Hotel. 14:15:49 clop, what do you use it for? 14:15:54 oh yes, then there's just the question _from where_ the guests arrive 14:19:03 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:22:07 bjorkintosh, hardware verification 14:23:18 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:25 clop: for any finite computing process that uses N memory cell, you can invent another finite computer process that uses N+1 memory cell. 14:26:10 Since there's no reason not to allow ALL the finite computer processes, you need unbounded memory, ie. infinite memory. 14:26:40 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:27:28 clop, is that the only thing it is good for? 14:27:46 clop: now, of couse, Turing Machines are only mathematical devices used to make theorems. In reality we have a finite universe, finite machines, and they work. We could even have MORE theorems about our actual machines if we didn't insist on theorizing theorems appliable even to infinite memory machines. 14:28:45 pjb, the word 'finite' does not apply to the universe! 14:28:55 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:07 -!- |nix|` [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29:11 it is the only extant perpetual motion machine. 14:29:30 bjorkintosh, it depends on what you want to do; it's definitely not as good as higher-order systems for, e.g., proving things about type systems, but it's pretty good for any kind of basic algorithm verification 14:29:31 pjp: You've broken my brain on "theorizing theorems". 14:29:39 Yes it does. THere are only 1e80 baryons in the observable universe. We can easily design problems and algorithms that require more than that number of memory bits. 14:29:40 perpetual so far, at least 14:29:43 pjb* of course. 14:29:43 flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:29:59 pjb: lisp on a dark matter computer :D 14:30:16 *dlowe* is extraordinarily on-topic today. 14:30:33 -!- bburhans [bburhans@freenode/staff/bburhans] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 14:30:58 Of course the alternative is to implode an alternate universe with as many particules you need for your problem, if that's 10^10^10^10 or more, so be it. 14:31:07 But not in this universe. 14:31:12 in american, they are called "particles" 14:31:28 Thanks. 14:31:38 *pjb* .oO(Those Americans) 14:33:31 I don't like those gratuituous deviations from pure Latin. :-) We should say "particulas". 14:33:58 Lol. 14:34:02 particulas or particles, can you take that elsewhere please? 14:34:44 H4ns: the discussion was about the biggest lisp program we will ever be able to write. 14:34:52 pjb: still off topic. 14:35:02 Ah This awesome feeling when you've found a mistake in your correction commit and you've already pushed it to remote repository so you can't simply amend =( 14:35:05 What about the biggest Common Lisp program? 14:35:41 i say, let's write a lispOS for the arm. 14:35:45 the machines are cheap enough. 14:36:01 bjorkintosh: take Movitz, write an ARM backend, write a LispOS. 14:36:04 it'll be the biggest common lisp program then. 14:36:11 Lol. LispOS 14:36:12 movitz is rather slow. 14:36:21 hitecnologys, what's so funny? it's been done a few times before. 14:36:22 Let's make lisp-computer too! 14:36:32 that has been done before as well. 14:37:02 bjorkintosh: I know. But it's still funny. 14:37:12 how well does common lisp handle concurrency/distribution/parallelism? 14:37:24 bjorkintosh: it does not. 14:37:26 The language ignores those concerns. 14:37:27 i've never seen anything on it in the fm. 14:37:37 ah right. practical concerns are ... not practical to lisp. 14:37:41 Implementations deal with them well enough for practical programs. 14:37:50 bjorkintosh: some libraries do, though. i had success with lparallel recently. 14:38:03 bjorkintosh: It's just a libraries problem. You can write library for concurrency/distribution/parallelism. BTW, there are some good libraries for it. 14:38:04 how hard was it to use? 14:38:29 bjorkintosh: lparallel seems to be very simple. 14:38:47 speaking of concurrency/distribution/parallelism. I had an interesting experience coming back to a moderately-sized Lisp app I last touched in October, after several months of working with Erlang. 14:39:04 bjorkintosh: i found it very easy to use. 14:39:31 tl;dr: I can't believe I ever wrote programs without supervision trees, but everything else about Lisp is so lovely. The supervision tree thing needs to be fixed, though. 14:39:51 sykopomp: Erlang oh. I tried to write on Erlang for about half a year before. It was like a I don't know pain. 14:40:20 hitecnologys: The good stuff about OTP is really good. I'd love to have something similar in CL. 14:40:20 -!- kanru [~kanru@66.207.208.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:41:17 Not a fan of the rest of the language, but I feel naked without supervision trees now, at least for networking-related applications where you're handling a bunch of clients. 14:41:20 skyopomp: but pure recursion makes my brain go to recursion. Anyway, I don't know what is OTP. =) 14:41:33 hitecnologys: then you don't know what Erlang is. 14:41:58 skyopomp: Is it threads? 14:42:04 hitecnologys: no. 14:42:17 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:47 skyopomp: So I have no ideas what is it. =( 14:44:10 Ah, it's set of libraries, yes? 14:45:28 Yes, it's the higher-level generic server/supervision tree/application library. 14:45:49 I didn't use libraries, i've just write some code to calculate factorials and to play with threads. And then I've forgotten about Erlang. 14:46:28 Erlang is good language, but it isn't for me. 14:47:39 I just want the good stuff about Erlang available in CL, and that can be done as a library. :) 14:49:34 -!- antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-spzrrykwwykqmdor] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:50:15 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:59 sykopomp: you should try writing it. 14:51:15 kanru [~kanru@66.207.208.98] has joined #lisp 14:51:58 skyopomp: Yes, it will be great. 14:52:42 It's on my todo list, and I already wrote one version. 14:53:08 I want to write an event-based version that wraps something like iolib, instead of relying on threads. 14:53:20 i just watched the basho talk on using lattices and monotonic functions to write distributed systems. pretty cool stuff. 14:54:18 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 14:54:18 Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:39 AndC [~user@109.99.183.190] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 @daimrod: both cd into the directory before starting emacs or cd into emacs before starting slime give 'System "myapp" not found error' on (ql:quickload "myapp"), symlinks work fine instread, thanks 14:59:24 sykopomp, you think OTP can be ported to cl? 14:59:43 and pwd inside emacs confirms I'm into the "myapp" dir 15:00:57 bjorkintosh: the other advantage of erlang vs. lisp is that erlang provides complete isolation between tasks, so the runtime can easily stop a task and restart it. otp - in its reliability aspect - cannot be ported to lisp because lisp does not provide this kind of isolation. 15:01:11 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-dooomvejwxzjprqh] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 bjorkintosh: one could of course define a subset of lisp that would then be used with this "otp port", but that'd easily be very clumsy. 15:01:37 clumsy. 15:01:42 clop: iolib has the best run-program in CL 15:05:23 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 15:05:33 fe[nl]ix, thanks, i'll take a look at it 15:07:56 bjorkintosh: I already ported the parts I think matter most, using threads. 15:08:25 doing OTP in an event-based way loses the possibility of blocking, but the API is otherwise very similar, and yes, it can be done. 15:08:59 dluna [~luna@c-76-109-168-197.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:19 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:10 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-jaocnhkjzxtcssyz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:16:44 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 15:18:45 -!- slucx [~lumpy_wx@221.5.81.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:02 that's good to know. 15:19:10 slucx [~lumpy_wx@221.5.81.158] has joined #lisp 15:19:32 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:23:27 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[~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:53 -!- woodz [~chatzilla@host86-136-56-54.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 15:49:18 gimbal [~gimbal@mo-76-0-0-116.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-37-109.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:51:58 *gimbal* cheers self for answering own question and starting Slime in MKCL >< 15:52:19 had to set a custom slime-backend, that was simple ;) 15:52:31 well not custom just different than the default 15:53:24 custom slime backend would be like, I dunno, an iOS app talking to a REPL via Swank >< 15:54:07 *gimbal* clams up with the bluesky thinking 15:54:40 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-068-132-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:04 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58:05 http://paste.lisp.org/+2SQZ - a SLIME configuration for MKCL 1.0.1 installed under /usr/local 15:58:42 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:49 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:59:57 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-142-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:00:59 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:15 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:50 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:02 -!- slucx [~lumpy_wx@221.5.81.158] has quit [Quit: ] 16:05:59 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483AA0A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:06:24 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 16:06:32 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:06:40 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@178.74.81.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:25 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:31 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:37 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:43 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:08 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 16:10:07 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:10:31 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:48 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:52 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:11:10 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:12:13 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 16:12:16 lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 16:16:15 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:13 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 16:18:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:27 Nick____ [~Nick@207.151.223.155] has joined #lisp 16:19:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jrigcuifmzsoymyo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:59 -!- Nick____ [~Nick@207.151.223.155] has left #lisp 16:22:57 is there a way to get text-only output from a cl-who sexp?? ie. the strrings without html tags 16:23:25 alternatively, is there a labels for defmethod, ie. locally defining a method? 16:24:59 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:58 _Steeler_ [~steeler@129.7.50.250] has joined #lisp 16:26:10 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.242] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 no to the latter question 16:30:41 there used to be but it got cut out of the standard before publication 16:31:08 mal__: because the modifications had dynamic rather than lexical scope. 16:32:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:07 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:34:36 You can always re-parse the output with closure-html and extract it from the DOM 16:34:43 in fact, you can use xpath to do that 16:35:08 I admit it'll probably feel dirty to do that, but it will work. 16:35:17 pkhuong: that's what I'd need here, dynamic extent 16:35:35 afaiu cltl2 generic-flet and generic-labels are lexical in scope 16:35:44 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:49 even with-added-methods doesn't seem to have dynamic extent 16:36:07 anyways, it's a moot point since I don't recall seeing these functions in any implementation 16:36:22 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:36:26 that means that called functions won't use my override 16:37:17 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:39:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-irmycyvvzyggpnni] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lkgojsmnjiamiose] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@118.45.149.206] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.88.135] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@75-163-226-75.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:39:30 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prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75cc9e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 hi 17:30:52 lo and behold! 17:31:12 atsidi [~nkraft_@suna.londontrustmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:07 this is common ground! 17:32:11 *wbooze* declares 17:33:11 -!- dluna [~luna@c-76-109-168-197.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:35:08 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:13 -!- flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39:32 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.242] has joined #lisp 17:40:53 -!- lcc [~lcc-pi@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:41:11 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 17:44:55 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:18 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:52:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.237.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:53 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined 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18:37:57 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:08 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:07 -!- jasox [~jasox@effic.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:21 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:44:42 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:45:13 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 18:45:18 -!- Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:47:07 Do most implementation usually fit a FIXNUM within a machine word? and am I right in thinking that this is not actually mandated by the spec? 18:47:57 "most-positive-fixnum is that fixnum closest in value to positive infinity provided by the implementation, and greater than or equal to both 2^15 - 1 and array-dimension-limit." 18:47:58 as long as it walks like fixnum, smells like a fixnum ..... 18:48:48 Guthur: usually. not mandated. 18:49:55 jasox [~jasox@effic.me] has joined #lisp 18:50:43 yeah, I had read the spec today, it's just that I know SBCL fits it into a machine word and quite of thought it would always be so 18:51:12 s/quite of/ 18:52:03 wbooze: well it could be a bignum 18:52:13 Guthur: what's mandated is that (subtypep fixnum '(signed-byte 16)). 18:52:50 Guthur: what's mandated is that (subtypep '(signed-byte 16) 'fixnum) ; rather 18:53:51 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:53:52 IIRC, bignum can be empty. ie. you can have fixnum = integer. 18:54:34 But perhaps not, after all, most-positive-fixnum needs to be held in memory. 18:56:45 that's easy enough to special case, isn't it? 18:56:58 is it mandated that it needs to be able to be printed? 18:57:01 -!- leoncamel [~user@219.142.133.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:57:09 It's assumed yes. 18:57:17 ...in finite time? 18:57:38 It could be special cased in the compiler, but evaluating most-positive-fixnum should not signal an error. 18:57:47 pjb: yeah I was thinking by the wording that bignum could be nothing 18:57:56 evaluating it is one thing, printing it is another. :) 18:58:11 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.195] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 I can see the sense for compiler optimisations in having a fixnum equal or smaller than a machine word 18:59:08 That's the purpose anyways: to let CL program be as efficient as C programs using int. 18:59:30 I don't think many implementations have made it the actual size of the word. Tagging is way more common. 18:59:52 Xach: true, 18:59:56 tagging is easier and funnier :-) 19:00:30 is SBCL 61bits 19:00:41 on x64 19:02:08 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:40 63, now. 19:03:13 60+bit fixnums are fun too. 19:05:18 (reduce (lambda (v b) (+ b (* v 256))) "Hello! " :key 'char-code) => 20377714673262880 19:05:35 asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879A7F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:36 If you catch my drift :-) 19:06:04 small string optimization? 19:07:23 Yep. That was how strings were implemented in LISP 1.5, only on 36-bit words and 6-bit characters :-) 19:07:23 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:08:29 pjb: the same as symbols on 36bit and 60bit machines 19:10:34 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:11:15 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 19:11:26 *pavelpenev* is currently reimplementing y-or-no-p because he wants to have default [Y/n] or [y/N] answers when he presses enter. 19:11:29 any here ever play with Garnet? 19:12:15 me sometimes, or just once .... 19:12:25 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:29 got the demo's up at least..... 19:13:48 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:13:50 wbooze: any thoughts compared to other GUI systems? I've glanced at some of the papers but I'm curious to know what people felt about it in practice. What worked well and what didn't. 19:14:05 Me too once. 19:14:19 well, none of the lispy gui's work the way out of the box, you'd expect or want them..... 19:14:22 But since I have't written a GUI ever since 19:14:27 if you mean that... 19:14:46 but most are pretty customizable, if you know howto/once you get into it....... 19:14:57 apart from the buggy parts ofc..... 19:15:02 wbooze: so you mean it was pretty easy to use from the get go. 19:15:18 not so easy.... 19:15:29 i had to keep on reading mostly how stuff is setup first..... 19:15:50 then consult some manuals/howto's for the inner workings..... 19:15:53 wbooze: oh I see. so quite a bit of cognitive overhead. 19:16:13 then do setup/customize/tweak..... 19:16:30 well, yes and i still have not get rid of the bugs for example in mcclim...... 19:16:36 i like it .... 19:16:57 but somehow it's too much to get a gripe of it all at once..... 19:18:13 for example the ratio's are dumb, if i set the wholine/modeline ratio to be 20% of the main frame say, then i expect it to resize correspondingly on resize event...but no dice here.... 19:19:10 or say the file-viewer shows me redraw event on every redraw differently depending on (don't know what...).... 19:19:45 and the file viewer's scroll-bars or even climacs scrollbars only scroll the current-view not the whole buffer ...... 19:20:24 those are all things addressable to be corrected...but don't know if that should happen in the main source tree...... 19:20:45 or left to the users taste...to customize.... 19:21:01 me feels them like bugs/annying..... 19:21:08 annoying* 19:21:23 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@222-155-139-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:21:37 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:38 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:22:11 and i don't get why things which should be customizable (and those are most things in mcclim source) don't get exported by default in it..... 19:22:32 i can use :: to qualify ok but ...... 19:22:58 Oh the reason is simple: 19:23:11 "lazyness" of the progrmmers. 19:23:14 and i don't know why i should define a gf or around methods in my .config rather then have them exported...... 19:23:23 yup 19:23:33 define a girlfriend, what? 19:23:44 gf = generic function here. 19:23:44 *Oladon_work* fades back into the shadows 19:23:55 eheh 19:24:00 We don't have no girlfriends :-) 19:24:11 That's why I was so confused. 19:24:15 ;) 19:24:18 <- too geeky afaik.... 19:24:22 lol 19:24:44 Though I'd bet that it wouldn't be the first time someone's tried to code one in Lisp... 19:24:51 eheh 19:25:04 Anyway, back to your discussion. 19:25:16 -!- RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:25:29 Well, in general people want their girlfriend to run on iOS or Android devices, and unfortunately, the Common Lisp situation on those devices is far from satisfactory so far. 19:25:55 So your best bet is to put it on the cloud, and just write the GUI on iOS and/or Android. 19:26:05 Which is what Siri does, AFAIU. 19:26:27 wbooze: I suspected as much. Been looking at literate around different approaches to GUI programming. Garnet was post Interface Builder so curious if Garnet made any real usability advances. 19:26:44 wbooze: it seemed to be the approach that took GUI programming around constraints the furthest. 19:26:58 s/literate/literature 19:27:00 hmmm 19:27:06 RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:07 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Quit: swapping servers] 19:28:13 Garnet was used to explore gesture based input. 19:28:39 pjb: that was one experiment in Garnet yes. Which was pleasingly forward looking. 19:28:46 And of course, one interest of Garnet is KR, which allows the automatic synchronization of model objects with UI objects. 19:29:06 pjb: KR? 19:29:16 Knowledge Representation. An OO system. 19:29:28 KR is now distributed separately too. 19:29:43 pjb: everything I looked it seemed like it was a simplistic constraint system. Not much more. 19:29:49 -!- asdfhjkl [~bob@i5E879A7F.versanet.de] has left #lisp 19:29:53 http://cliki.net/KR 19:29:57 for example most annoying is the file-viewer is only showing portions of a file around a fixed point of the cursor being on a line in that file when i change the point in climacs (so move the cursor) and try to view the file a second time i get another portion shown (but still not the whole file)..... 19:30:09 dnolen: yes. But it can be used to great effect in programming UIs. 19:30:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.168] has joined #lisp 19:30:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.175.168] has quit [Changing host] 19:30:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:30:37 pjb: sorry I thought you were referring to KR in general, not the prototype system in Garnet. 19:30:56 seems like some deps are maybe too loose defined/setup or even wrong..... 19:31:03 dnolen: you may try to compare use of KR in Garnet with eg. the Key-Value protocols in Cocoa. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaBindings/Concepts/WhatAreBindings.html 19:31:10 hilarity will probably ensue. 19:31:22 pjb: I'm pretty familiar with Cocoa. 19:32:17 While OpenStep is a great progress compared to The Mac Toolbox, it could be much better. 19:32:41 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-142-167.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:33:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:11 I think KR was much more advanced than K/V protocols 19:33:58 Yes, that's what I meant, hilarity at Apple's expenses. 19:34:34 Cells is kind-of similar 19:35:08 fms [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:18 -!- fms is now known as ebobby 19:36:37 is a function call in a case clause a tail call? like in (t (functioncall)) is (functioncall) in a tail position? 19:37:10 pavelpenev: in case and cond, there are several tail positions. 19:37:34 In (case 42 (42 (call1) (t (call2))) both (call1) and (call2) are tail calls. 19:38:00 pjb: yes, thats what i was asking, thank you. 19:39:18 i'm writing a recursive user input loop, and i wanted to know if a user can overflow my stack just by not answering the question a few thousand times :) 19:39:40 depends on the implementation. 19:40:05 sykopomp: i know, but sbcl merges tail calls, right? 19:40:21 depends on your settings 19:42:00 pavelpenev: theorically it's possible. CL implementations don't all implement TCO, and even if they do, it's easy to have apparent tail call not be tail calls. Eg. if you have a dynamic binding, a hidden unwind-protect, etc. 19:42:09 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 pavelpenev: check on cll, there are several examples of macros to express TCO in a conforming and safe way in CL. 19:43:14 (basically, you write code as if it was a tail function call, but the macro expands to a tagbody/go). 19:43:37 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:37 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@217.39.4.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:44 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:05 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:45:05 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:45:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:08 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.199.235] has joined #lisp 19:45:28 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:29 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 19:46:50 DrForr [~jgoff@109.144.156.28] has joined #lisp 19:47:20 pjb: I'll check it out. 19:47:37 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.242] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 19:47:57 *Xach* is frustrated by the lack of ltk updates 19:48:58 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:15 pjb: wbooze: thx for the pointers. 19:50:17 Xach: are they needed? 19:50:40 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has left #lisp 19:50:49 p_l|backup: yes. it does not build with the latest sbcl. 19:51:21 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Quit: fiddlesticks] 19:51:45 aha 19:53:00 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 one of its packages uses sb-ext, then locally defines an exit function. 19:53:49 the package 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20:04:06 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:04:19 -!- sellout [~Adium@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:07:07 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:17 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@91-67-216-224-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:28 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dbcpjiibzpdcrqnw] has joined #lisp 20:08:53 wbooze: your ellipses addict is getting worse 20:09:03 s/addict/addiction 20:10:29 the backlog from 20:14-20:21 a tad insane looking 20:12:24 Xach: fork! fork! 20:12:26 flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:12:52 peter said he would update it, but he has not done it yet 20:18:43 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:20:13 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:52 -!- gravicappa 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[Quit: Lost terminal] 21:17:04 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:19 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-qcyyublwdthsaxpe] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.237.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:18:53 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:18:56 lcc [ce1db6e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.29.182.226] has joined #lisp 21:21:57 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:26:15 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:26:45 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:36 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-racxkuuuojpaspfe] has joined #lisp 21:29:57 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-058-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:30:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:29 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:19 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.63.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:42:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 21:50:47 there should be a name for a situation, where you are surprised that your framework is good, so that you spend 2 hours debugging, as to why things actually work as they should, when for some reason you thought they would not 21:51:04 but apparently I thought of a complicated situation before hand, and coded for it, and completely forgot about it 21:52:02 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:36 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:53:43 "bragging on IRC" 21:56:09 heh you caught me :-) but situation is real, as desire to get to the bottom of things is independent of if its a bug, or "wtf, this is not supposed to work yet" 21:59:05 ok, it's called "getting old" 21:59:22 bad memory, etc... 21:59:42 also, working with too much old code (; 21:59:57 (does the code you were trying to debug have tests?) (: 22:00:46 -!- nha [~prefect@f052236102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:58 antifuchs: do you know of a good way to stress-test a website ? we've been using blitz.io and httperf 22:01:00 Guthur` [~user@212.183.128.64] has joined #lisp 22:01:40 do you need to stress-test an API (with different http-authenticated users) or a web site? 22:01:47 fe[nl]ix: you could use the SparkFun method... give away a bunch of money/products 22:01:47 as in, stuff people point browsers to 22:01:49 and get meaningful statistics 22:01:57 -!- jasox [~jasox@effic.me] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:01:59 because for the web site case, there is an abundance of tools 22:02:07 for the http api case, almost none. 22:02:09 we're testing the json API at the moment 22:02:13 antifuchs: not really, its gui part of the app.. Was surprised that "cancel" button in a dialog, somehow resets side-effectish things into the right place, even though I did not added a hook or anything 22:02:28 Buglouse_ [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:02:46 so I've been trying to find something that works for APIs (esp. with multiple http simple/bearer-authed users), but wasn't lucky at all in my search ): 22:03:03 fe[nl]ix: so, yeah, no )): 22:03:14 fe[nl]ix: if you find anything that does that nicely, please let me know! 22:03:24 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:24 I will :) 22:03:29 I'd be super delighted to have something useful for this (: 22:03:44 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-irmycyvvzyggpnni] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:03:49 right now, we are ad-hoc testing this a lot, and that can't be what we should be doing (: 22:04:29 I /think/ something nice and drakma-based shouldn't be too hard to cook up ((: 22:04:31 found that it updates gui controls before deleting dialog (coz it shares code with Reset button), and it copies back instance slots, then updates gui controls to match, and methods attached to gui controls do their side effects stuff magically making everything work when you Cancel a direct editing dialog 22:04:41 -!- lcc [ce1db6e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.29.182.226] has quit [] 22:04:53 btw, for simple testing blitz.io is really nice 22:04:57 Hey, anyone know where I can find some Lisp code to read? 22:04:59 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:25 jasox [~jasox@effic.me] has joined #lisp 22:05:30 Eulo: cl-ppcre is often advised. 22:05:41 Eulo: the quicklisp repository is full of lisp code (: 22:05:54 fe[nl]ix: nice - will investigate 22:06:38 Eulo: check out landoflisp.com 22:06:39 antifuchs: you seen this? https://plus.google.com/117565924052843182115/posts/D87WMV87e7X 22:06:52 http://www.weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ and http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ ? Thank you. 22:06:55 haven't, but that looks neat (: 22:07:23 Eulo: yeah, the latter is a repository/installer for good lisp libraries 22:07:28 Eulo: good luck! 22:07:57 Thank you very much. What's your opinion on Lisp as a first programming language for a beginner? 22:08:06 Great 22:08:09 Positive. 22:08:13 Eulo: you could pick a worse language ((-: 22:08:43 antifuchs: you have a double chin. 22:08:48 Eulo: I'm sure you can pick it up as a beginner, and even have fun doing it (: 22:09:07 Oladon_work: free snacks at work taking their toll )-: 22:09:16 or rather, giving 22:09:18 Eulo: the book site I referenced, Land of Lisp, is great for beginners 22:09:28 Now of course, beginning with Common Lisp is somewhat a lazy choice: since it's the best programming language, you also end with Common Lisp and can avoid learning any other programming language (almost). 22:09:34 antifuchs: Ah yes... 22:10:11 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:10:15 pjb: Sadly, telling him that probably won't help him avoid any heartache if he ends up going into programming as a profession 22:10:35 Eulo: as a beginner how did you even hear about common lisp? 22:10:38 Eulo: if you're a complete beginner, "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is quite good http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 22:11:58 bburhans [bburhans@freenode/staff/bburhans] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 I went through a list of languages. ,Python, C++ C# C and lisp were the ones I narrowed it down too. 22:12:15 So common is the way to go and not scheme? 22:12:28 Eulo: religious argument, really 22:12:54 Eulo: it's an old divide, with entrenched positions on both sides. 22:13:57 Atari Logo was my first language, and that's a lisp dialect 22:15:26 lisp attracted me to programming in the first place :P 22:15:47 although, that was more of an AI thing that attracted me to lisp that attracted me to programming in general... 22:16:02 (and robotics was what attracted me to AI...) 22:16:22 ikki [~ikki@189.196.100.7] has joined #lisp 22:16:30 The biggest problem with lisp as a first language is that lisp looks nothing like most pseudocode, and a lot of resources will represent algorithms in pseudocode 22:16:31 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:16:46 jasom: that's false. 22:17:04 See for example http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a827235ce7466a92 22:18:31 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:18:45 pjb: not sure that that disproves my point 22:18:56 pascal looks more like pseudocode, because at the end there must be a period. 22:20:46 jasom: in any case, for algorithms, the idea of pseudo code is the most idiotic. 22:21:06 tanderson2 [~thayer@pool-173-48-186-60.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:08 algorithms must be expressed in a precise algorithmic language. pseudo code is not that. 22:21:31 pjb: not disagreeing with you, but it's how a lot of intro-to-algorithms books introduce new algorithms 22:21:44 Hello everyone. I am new to lisp. I was wondering what dialect and distribution people recommend I start with. 22:21:45 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:46 You may be inconvenienced by type declarations or other syntactic element: just choose an algorithmic language without the elements that inconvenience you: choose Common Lisp! (or scheme). 22:21:50 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 22:22:05 jasom: a lot of introduction to algorithm books are very... bland 22:22:07 tanderson2: there are no Common Lisp dialect. 22:22:22 tanderson2: there's a Common Lisp standard, and all implementations are, or aim to be conforming. 22:22:34 tanderson2: #lisp is specifically about common lisp, a dialect of lisp 22:22:48 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:22:48 I meant dialect (perhaps the incorrect word) in terms of emacs lisp/cl/scheme 22:22:49 what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 ; it's a program that will help you choose a CL implementation. 22:23:03 jasom: some can be excused (Cormen et al, for example) being more of an encyclopedic, in-depth resource about algorithms, which often have Pascal bent for certain reason 22:23:19 emacs lisp is one language in the lisp family. Common Lisp is another. Scheme yet another. 22:23:30 *p_l|backup* found the Algorithm Design Manual to be more fitting to use when learning 22:23:34 tanderson2: sbcl with slime is what most people here use 22:23:56 Ah, I was unaware that this channel was for Common Lisp. prxq, I have slime with cmucl, is sbcl preferable? 22:24:10 tanderson2: be sure to install sbcl from its site, and slime using quicklisp 22:24:15 Depends. 22:24:20 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:24:24 cmucl works well. sbcl evolves faster. 22:24:27 p_l|backup: in my experience, even "Introduction to algorithms in *language*" books start with pseudocode of the algorithm 22:24:37 tanderson2: I'd leave CMUCL for abit later, I think 22:24:38 tanderson2: what pjb said. 22:24:39 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:25:02 jasom: what? Do you expect book authors to show any sign of independent thinking? 22:25:05 Okay, thank you all for the advice. 22:25:06 tanderson2: sbcl is multithreaded, and that is a lot more comfy for development using slime. 22:25:06 jasom: yes. And Design Manual starts with "war story" and how the algorithm got used in practice solving some real-world case 22:25:27 including a free form talk about it 22:25:36 jasom: if they write book, it's to earn money, and therefore they write average books to cater to an average public so they can maximalize the profits. 22:25:40 I've found most pseudocode operators to have equivalents in CL, and the mapping to be easy enough 22:25:46 it does have pseudocode, but I find it much less... annoying 22:25:56 *prxq* is always slightly annoyed at how algorithms in numerics papers tend to look like pseudo-fortran 22:26:01 Vivitron: you've found a list of pseudocode operators? 22:26:19 pjb: books which use pseudocode sometimes have such 22:26:24 algol 69 is alive and well. That's runnable pseudocode. 22:26:30 If you use any operators other than these, you are using pseudo-pseudocode 22:26:33 Vivitron: so they define their own language. 22:26:46 prxq: a lot of numerical stuff is done in fortran 22:26:52 Vivitron: http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html 22:27:13 p_l|backup: less and less, these days. I should have said: pseudo-fortran77. 22:27:13 prxq: it's probably the language with fastest compilers and some of the best tools for *numerics* 22:27:41 prxq: I think it's more that a lot of the stuff requires dealing with stuff that isn't numerics 22:28:00 Now, if you don't want to use parentheses in your pseudo code, you could nowadays use Python. It has been designed for that, so it would be natural to use Python to write "pseudo-code" algorithms. 22:28:28 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:38 yeah, Python's BDFL sometimes heavy-handedly keeps "Python as language for learning" mantra 22:30:20 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:30:36 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75cc9e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:41 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 22:31:59 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:32:54 *Oladon_work* twitches 22:35:53 -!- BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:51 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:39:25 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:40:31 Hi, is there a CL equivalent to /dev/null 22:40:35 to use as a stream 22:40:51 for writing output and having it go essentially nowhere? 22:41:02 I notice this with cl-who: 22:41:05 (setq s nil) 22:41:06 <|3b|> (make-broadcast-stream) 22:41:18 (cl-who:with-html-output (s) (:html "hey now")) 22:41:37 sellout [~Adium@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:37 --> hey now 22:41:45 "hey now" 22:42:08 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:08 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:42:08 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:42:17 so cl-who is apparently emitting to *standard-output* even if I specify nil as the stream 22:42:18 <|3b|> right, NIL as a stream designator probably doesn't mean "ignore the output" 22:43:11 Sorella [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:43:11 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:43:11 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:43:13 <|3b|> NIL as a stream designator means *standard-output* (except FORMAT where it means "create a string") 22:43:27 so (make-broadcast-stream) with no arguments 22:43:28 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 22:43:32 <|3b|> right 22:43:33 will send output to nowhere 22:43:49 |3b|: thank you. Trying now... 22:44:05 -!- tanderson2 [~thayer@pool-173-48-186-60.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:46:37 -!- Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:07 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:49:19 |3b|: brilliant, perfect. Thank you! 22:49:33 I really would not have thought of using (make-broadcast-stream) with no arguments like that. 22:50:09 midpipps [~midpipps@host-249-102-3-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:51 Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has joined #lisp 22:52:55 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:27 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.80] has joined #lisp 22:56:09 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:56:51 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:58:15 tanderson1 [~thayer@pool-173-48-186-60.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:52 -!- tanderson1 [~thayer@pool-173-48-186-60.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:05 tanderson1 [~thayer@pool-173-48-186-60.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:45 |nix| [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:57 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 23:01:28 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:57 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 23:06:03 Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-13-90-225.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:09:32 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 23:09:41 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:12:13 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: .] 23:13:38 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:44 -!- Guthur` [~user@212.183.128.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:58 sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:58 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:14:58 sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:15:00 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:33 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:15:40 -!- TimKack [~user@d115007.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:17:51 -!- tanderson1 [~thayer@pool-173-48-186-60.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:19:57 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:09 iamalexalright [~iamalexal@rrcs-24-43-27-165.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:01 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-11-29.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:13 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:48 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:29:42 arrsim` [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:32:55 -!- Kwucks [ca091892@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.9.24.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:06 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:13 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:43 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:45:15 -!- Buglouse_ is now known as Buglouse 23:45:24 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 23:50:24 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:52:04 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:56:32 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 23:56:32 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 23:56:33 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 23:56:49 -!- flippery [~flip@host170-215-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:37 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]