00:02:01 sanjuro_: try to write an unless operator in C( equivelent to if(!...) {}) you'd have to go hack on the compilers source to do that, in lisp you have an API for hacking you're compiler. 00:04:23 ok so I undertand how it works now kind of, i think 00:05:03 but why? what does that accomplish when actually creating a program? 00:05:18 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:19 sanjoyd did you ever want a switch in C++ that can operate on more than just numbers? if C++ had something comparable to Lisp macros you could write your own switch-like syntax in about 6 lines of code 00:05:32 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:17 why? to reduce boilerplate. to make code more readable 00:06:23 kennyd: wrong nick. But I doubt you could do that in 6 lines in C++'s AST. :) 00:06:26 less boilerplate, better abstraction, cleaner and clearer code, sometimes better performance 00:06:36 "DSL" 00:07:04 sanjuro_: Sometimes it is nice to change evaluation order and what not. 00:07:05 sanjoyd you're right. in lisp though, it's few lines of code 00:07:10 Yeah. 00:08:19 its essential to exercise taste though, I've been thinking about adding an extention to emacs that would ask me "are you sure" every time i type 'defmacro' 00:08:39 "It looks like you're writing a macro" :) 00:08:48 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:09:00 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/267862/what-makes-lisp-macros-so-special might be a good read.. .It's like the second thing that popped up when I googled "common lisp macros" 00:09:10 Also 'On Lisp' by PG. 00:09:33 it sounds like this would lead to dialects arising within a single source file 00:09:49 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:00 making any program that took advantage of macros nearly impossible to maintain 00:10:03 sanjuro_: it is a slipper slope. 00:10:09 *slippery 00:10:13 Also, Let over Lambda by Doug Hoyte (mostly available free online). 00:10:13 sanjuro_: as I said, taste, also thats the point, you want the best language for the job, why not make lisp that language? 00:10:17 pavelpenev:  00:11:45 sanjuro_: Like any other language you can write unmaintainable garbage in it, or you can write clean easy to understand code. 00:11:45 on maintainability, large and deep Java class hierarchies can also be a slippery slope, same for C++ 00:12:04 sanjuro_: Seems most projects end up somewhere in between. No matter what language. 00:12:14 actual engineering is hard, news at 11 00:12:15 actually, a pile of garbage tends to be more maintainable in lisp than in C/C++ 00:12:19 and if you throw in Template meta programming you have pretty much reduced the number of coders that can even decipher your code to a very small subset 00:12:28 pavelpenev: :D 00:12:50 that's an aspect that tends to be overlooked: how forgiving a language is. 00:12:56 it seems like in other languages though you would have to actually misuse the feature to introduce unecessary complexity 00:13:28 sanjuro_: huh? In C++, it is enough with just using it 00:13:30 sanjuro_: macros are often used to *remove* complexity. 00:13:30 it sounds like macros in lisp though do this as a side affect of normal usage 00:13:45 *effect 00:14:24 my trollsense is tinkling 00:14:25 sanjuro_: things that you take completely for granted introduce complexity just for being in the language, take side effects for instance, the question is about trade-offs 00:14:27 it sounds like I'll actually have to learn lisp to understand all this 00:14:34 eg. (with-open-file (...) .....) instead of some bizarre invocation every time. 00:14:36 frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 00:15:08 its probably one of those things that can't be explained easily in words effectively 00:15:37 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:38 i get the gist of it though 00:15:42 sanjuro_: it can, but you need to have the context to understand it, have you suffered a horible code base you had to debug and maintain? 00:16:15 all I know is C, python, and javascript. have only written small fizzbuzz programs in each 00:16:24 sanjuro_: Yes. You can use macros for writing stuff that is pretty much impossible to decrypt. That is not what most people use it for. 00:17:43 yeah the macro itself gets complex but the other code at the same time stays plain.... 00:17:43 what are some of lisp strengths and limitations. 00:17:49 sanjuro_ check this out. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2561221/examples-of-what-lisps-macros-can-be-used-for?rq=1 00:17:55 sanjuro_: well, some of the more advanced features of lisp can only be apreciated if they save you pain, 3 years ago I chose to learn scheme first, because I didn't know the pain of programming 00:17:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:19:09 sanjuro_: macros are pretty much code you write that writes code for ya. Or perhaps code you write to write code that write codes. etc. 00:19:47 complexity sinks they are.... 00:19:53 what domains and problems can lisp effectively tackle is what I mean, and what areas is it hindered in. Taking community, language features, and libraries into account 00:20:24 like I would obviously say PHP is great for web apps but no the best language to write sys admin scripts in 00:20:48 *schmx* goes to make an omelette instead. 00:20:48 sanjuro_: php is a bad language for web apps, lisp is better 00:20:57 I don't think PHP has been consider the best for web apps in a long time 00:21:14 if it ever was good in the first place 00:21:32 really? I hate the language myself but I would never agree with what you just said 00:21:48 most server side stuff on a web app is just simple logic for accessing a database 00:22:16 sanjuro_: and php is just a dumb templating language that got extended to do that badly 00:22:19 php is extremely fast at that compared to perl/python/ruby 00:22:39 sanjuro_: citation needed 00:22:42 it is? 00:22:44 indeed 00:23:05 I would be interested in seeing where PHP smokes anything 00:23:10 i've been looking at benchmarks all morning 00:23:16 sanjuro_: lisp is a splendid general purpose programming language and can be used for most tasks you can think off. I'd avoid it for embedded and real time work. Drawbacks is that it is not as popular as eg. python and therefor you will have a harder time finding a shitload of libraries to fix whatever you dream off. Another drawback is that it does not run on top of CLR. Also distribution of software can be an issue to some. 00:23:21 doing research into what language to learn after c 00:23:31 benchmarks... 00:24:04 so what are most of the libraries for lisp targeting 00:24:12 it's mostly about picking the right representation of data and a nice algorithm there. Language is (usually) less of an issue when it comes to benchmark. 00:24:16 sanjuro_: anything lispers need 00:24:29 python seems to be all over the place but with specifically good science and bioinformatics libraries 00:24:50 schmx: not for something as simple as database access and cgi 00:25:02 wat. 00:25:15 You're telling me that C does database accessing better than any other random language? 00:25:16 sanjuro_: cgi? the 90's called :) 00:25:39 cgi is the protocol 00:25:48 so 2012 is what called 00:26:14 -!- __dict__ [~jake@c-24-22-211-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:26:19 I'd think performance of database accessing was mostly related to how fast your postgresql was spinning. But oh well. 00:26:53 sanjuro_: I know what CGI is 00:26:55 it also has to do with how the interpreter parses the scripts and priortizes actions 00:27:49 php is more domain specific so it has the advantage in cgi stuff, I hate domain specific languages though 00:28:01 O_o 00:28:16 schmx: regarding CLR and distribution... 00:28:34 schmx: Trying to distribute an application written in Mono is *PAIN* 00:28:41 but what is lisps main focus 00:28:45 sanjuro_: you haven't deployed a single web app have you? 00:28:47 been there, done that, didn't even get a lousy tshirt 00:28:53 sanjuro_: It's a general purpose language. 00:28:53 or is it kinda all over the place like python 00:29:06 so it's not "best" and anything? 00:29:07 sanjuro_: You can write an OS kernel in it. You can write a web app in it. You can write a game in it. 00:29:17 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:29:28 p_l|backup: Indeed it is :) 00:29:31 sanjuro_: PHP isn't good even in its domain 00:29:34 you can program computers in it :) 00:29:43 schmx: OTOH, CLR is pretty good thing in general 00:29:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:29:56 yeah but what problem areas does it have the best library support for 00:30:11 i guess is what I'm trying to say 00:30:22 sanjuro_: what do you need? 00:30:23 p_l|backup: I recently found that scala has been adapted to it. Made me a happy camper. :) 00:30:42 I dont know, still shopping for the next language to learn 00:30:51 I don't know all that exists to need yet 00:30:57 sanjuro_: then you're using wrong criterions 00:31:04 sanjuro_: then choose the language that will teach you the most in the shortest amount of time, lisp is a good candidate for that 00:31:08 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:17 speaking from experience 00:31:30 sanjuro_: Learning CL can be quite pleasureable. Working a bit with it will give you a perspective on object orientation that is different from what quite many other languages do. 00:31:50 choose a language not based on libraries (unless there's some motherfucking great lib you want to understand implementation of), but on concepts in the language itself 00:32:24 no, I get all that and have heard that already. The libraries and community that grow around a language give a clue into what it is best useful at 00:32:30 sanjuro_: And if you need some library that is not available you can generally use FFI to access it anyhoo. 00:32:38 so, of the top of my head, my suggestion to you is to learn Lisp (IMHO preferably CL), a concatenative language (Forth or Factor), and Prolog. 00:33:05 I will learn C and then one other HLL language for quick coding 00:33:16 I'd pick factor over forth any day. And I *love* forth. :) 00:33:27 (for recommending learning that is) 00:33:41 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 00:33:44 pnq [~nick@AC81360E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:49 sanjuro_: Probably a good idea to learn something else. C is generally a terrible choice for doing anything at all. 00:34:32 what 00:34:52 last time i tried factor, something got screwed....and never turned good again tho.... 00:35:20 C is easy as hell 00:35:27 if you know how the processor and memory work 00:35:28 sanjuro_: welcome to the wild and weird world of people who went beyond narrowband of algol and simula descendants and pitiful wrappers around C 00:35:45 sanjuro_: no you don't, you know how they worked in the 70's 00:35:52 modern cpu's are very different 00:36:02 sanjuro_: And there's a lot of "undefined behaviour" 00:36:14 CL, meanwhile, even gives you CL:DISASSEMBLE ;) 00:36:29 your telling me the processor still doesnt work by pointing and writing 32 bit chunks to and from registers and memory addresses? 00:36:35 sanjuro_: Yes. C is a dead simple language. asm is simpler. Doesn't really mean they're a good choice for most projects anyhoo. 00:37:00 if you care about having the best possible performance they are 00:37:02 sanjuro_: it is an extremely oversimplified pictulre of what is happaning 00:37:32 sanjuro_: I care about my time, my sanity, and the quality of my code more than about performance, and I spend the day optimizing 00:37:35 sanjuro_: a lot of the "C is fastest" craze is cargo-cult 00:37:38 pavelpenev: only if you care about whats going on inside the processor but you have no control over that as a programmer anyways 00:37:39 sanjuro_: That's not even true what you said about performance.. Sure for some tasks you can get "better" performance by microoptimizng hand written asm. 00:38:05 schmx: if you know C you are basically just writing asm 00:38:05 sanjuro_: also, C abstracts the cpu a lot... including stuff you might want to know and influence 00:38:06 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:38:14 inline assembly 00:38:24 I optimized today by trowing away code, rewriting my algorythm, and experimenting with many different aproaches 00:38:24 sanjuro_: I see you have not written very much assembly. 00:38:25 schmx: nope, it emulates PDP-11 assembler on different cpu 00:38:31 sanjuro_: hint: you don't know how the cpu optimizes. so guessing you'll write the fastest code by pretending you do know, is probably not the right guess to make. then again, you might be a cpu engineer at AMD or intel and you might just know it all... but somehow, i doubt that. 00:38:32 C is the fastest if you know assembly 00:38:36 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 00:38:46 not by hand tweaking assembly and guessing how the machine would react 00:38:58 no that is pedantic behavior 00:39:06 sanjuro_: try one day seeing really carefully optimized assembly code 00:39:14 sanjuro_: sorry, s/cpu/compiler/ and even in ASM, i doubt you'll have the knowledge to figure out the fastest way for non-trivial things. 00:39:15 hint - C compilers can't emit it 00:39:47 the point is that C lets you code and have a good idea of what the assembly is going to be 00:39:51 (among other things, it had multiple-entry-point functions) 00:39:55 and assembly is pretty straight forward 00:39:56 sanjuro_: same for CL 00:40:06 sanjuro_: For most bigger apps you will get much better performance by letting a garbage collector handling your memory, thinking up better data representation, maybe switching algos, and perhaps send stuff off to your GPU and/or take advantage of multiple cores. 00:40:17 sanjuro_: C just makes you believe you are writing faster code. 00:40:27 assembly is not straight forward on modern architectures, even on x86 despite it's heavy emulation of being so 00:40:37 no, a garbage collector will provide better memory management than manual 00:41:00 exactly. A GC will do a better job most of the time. 00:41:11 I mean "won't" 00:41:25 sanjuro_: your x86 CPU happily ignores whatever you feed it and change it all around anyway. 00:41:44 sanjuro_: you seem bright enough, learn to think critically, and recognize when you've drank too much kool-aid 00:41:50 yeah that's for the people who write compilers to think about 00:42:06 < sanjuro_> all I know is C, python, and javascript. have only written small fizzbuzz programs in each <--- this explains a lot. 00:42:11 sanjuro_: till you write multithreaded programs 00:42:30 character attacks now 00:42:35 sanjuro_: it seems counter-intuitive, but i've read a few studies which showed that garbage collectors are faster in practice than manual collection. that, plus there's a big chance you'll write errors in the process (i think things like verifast can help you with that though) 00:42:37 sanjuro_: now you're just annoying a bunch of people all of them probably more experienced than you, and likely me 00:42:47 sanjuro_: I spent years writing stuff in asm just because I was deluded. 00:42:49 I had a feeling lispers were fags when you couldnt even mention a single library for it 00:42:50 peace 00:42:54 -!- sanjuro_ [~sanjuro__@67-5-232-247.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:00 heh 00:43:18 guther: we should have listened to your troll sense that was tingling. 00:43:22 sanjuro_: not attacks, you're calling us names, I'm just pointing out that maybe, just maybe you don't know as much as you think you do 00:43:37 pavelpenev: annoy the troll, /msg it to him :) 00:44:16 well, gc is good, but i don't like it's async aspect.... 00:44:22 oop sorry, got carried away there, can't say I didn't see this comming though :) 00:44:22 *schmx* goes back to writing asm scripts to get optimal performance from his cgi :((( 00:44:27 would bee good if it were optional.... 00:44:43 or enabled and disabled.... 00:44:53 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:44:55 wbooze: (without-gc ...)? ;P 00:45:03 ah 00:45:15 also, there are different GCs out there 00:45:18 weheh 00:45:18 including realtime ones 00:45:24 oh 00:45:30 which are those ? 00:45:34 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:46:39 I can't give names much, most of it is in various embedded stuff, but Inferno's concurrent GC is pretty well documented, Franz had a real-time lisp implementation, tehre are some real-time Javas, etc. 00:47:04 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:48:28 hmm, i see 00:48:34 That's the whole point of lisp: making dialects to write your program in the best programming language possible. 00:49:57 quite a lot of good programming is done this way, or as combination of top-down and bottom-up 00:50:21 Forth is all about "have some simple parts, make yourself a language" 00:54:08 stackexchangers and redditers don't know anything. They ask why there's no ultimate programming language, or why they can't port latex to iOS http://vallettaventures.tumblr.com/post/13124883568/the-price-of-a-messy-codebase-no-latex-for-the-ipad. 00:54:14 the answer is because they're not using lisp. 00:54:33 when you can't write your DSL as an extension of lisp, you have to use different languages in the same project. 00:55:08 when you can't write your DSL as an extension of lisp, then your language won't be perfectly adapted to your application and you'll have difficulties. 00:55:41 pjb: on the level of DSL, i'm trying out something in which i give the s-expressions as a basic way for some people to configure their site. i'm really curious how it will end up, as it can be a major time-saver from my end (and they gain flexibility). 00:56:20 madnificent: several systems use sexps for their configuration files, even if not programmed in lisp. For example, Xen. 00:56:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:56:33 pjb: yes, but this is end-users, not administrators 00:56:34 (But Xen also provides a python layer above sexps, which is quite inconvenient). 00:56:56 madnificent: end-users don't know better: they'll use whatever you give them. 00:57:11 And if they complain, you can easily write a few reader macros. 00:57:15 wasn't viaweb also scripted in some s-expression like language called RTML? 00:58:19 Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-232-75.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:58:20 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-232-75.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 00:58:20 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 pjb: still, if it turns out it's a viable option to give them s-expressions for their specifications, it's a cool feat. i don't see users accepting everything though, don't know in what regime you live :) 00:58:53 madnificent: works well for emacs. 00:59:21 Vivitron: emacs is built for and by techies (and probably programmers). it's a different market. 01:00:19 madnificent: also, read: http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html 01:00:38 madnificent: as long as you don't say they're programming or that it's lisp or sexps, they'll like it. 01:01:17 People are not dumb in general, they're just idiots. 01:01:40 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:02:16 -!- meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:02:51 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:03:44 madnificent: if the sexps are one liners you might be able to improve acceptance by making the top level parens optional 01:05:09 So, basically what we learn from sicp is that there are different ways of abstraction (abstraction is needed to tame complexity). data abstraction (building data structures, ADTs), functional abstraction (defining APIs), meta-linguistic abstraction (defining new languages or language extensions), and unfortunately, sicp doesn't talk about syntactic abstraction, definining new syntaxes to abstract away boilerplate. Both metalinguistic 01:05:09 abstraction and syntactic abstraction can be implemented with macros. 01:05:39 -!- RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-66-77-202-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:06:07 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@h082218028049.host.wavenet.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:17 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:18 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:15 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:11:15 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:05 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 01:14:48 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:06 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:37 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 01:15:47 ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:04 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:17:20 pjb: wow, that's a lot of text to refer me to for very very little content 01:17:40 and the content stems from a different time, where people weren't expecting fancy GUIs for what they had to do... 01:17:45 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 01:18:52 Vivitron: no. i think the s-expressions make it easier for them to grasp. the parens indicate grouping. it's harsh enough that they'll have to see "keyword arguments" and "how to enter strings". 01:20:52 i doubt s-expressions will form a problem in terms of usability, but in terms of social acceptance, it's a challenge. 01:22:37 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013e2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:23:26 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 01:25:07 madnificent: yes, probably right for a config file. I wanted to mention it because Rob Warnock on c.l.l. mentioned increased acceptance doing that. That was in a command interpreter for technical users, though. 01:25:16 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:26:31 Vivitron: yes, for (varying degrees of) programmers it certainly makes sense. i /think/ it will make sense for non-technical people as well (given some minimal training). i'm curious to the results though. so far, it all looks reasonably good. 01:27:53 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:27:55 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:29:00 by "that" I mean making the outer parens optional helped his acceptance 01:30:32 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:30:48 Vivitron: ah right. i don't think it's suitable in this case (it's not one-liners). however it might help if it's /always/ going to be one-liners 01:32:26 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:33:16 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:33:55 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:34:44 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0131ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:45 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.87] has joined #lisp 01:40:10 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.34.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:41:40 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 01:42:10 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:57 tiglog [~topeak@123.114.122.248] has joined #lisp 01:51:10 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.140.63] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:24 -!- frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: quit] 01:54:49 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 01:55:01 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:50 madnificent: still worth reading entirely: it's our history :-) 01:57:34 furthermore, CLIs are better for newbies than GUIs. 01:59:24 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:59:24 madnificent: that's to ease the social acceptance that my advice is NOT to say that's sexps. 02:00:18 -!- Croms [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has left #lisp 02:02:17 It's quite possible that the GUI will disappear in a few years. 02:03:19 For example, on touch screens, the user interface is quite different than what you have on desktops. (no menu, no (or awkward) selection, etc). 02:04:38 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-144-32.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:50 I wonder what the state-of-the-art in GUI development is. I'm not even sure what that would mean. But as far as I'm concerned, it's still fairly laborious and tedious to make something beyond a single-paned static interface. 02:05:12 Quadrescence: the state-of-the-art in GUI is NeXTSTEP :-) 02:06:01 *Quadrescence* has two NeXT pizza boxes with a "megapixel" screen. :) 02:06:09 Never developed in NeXTSTEP though. 02:06:11 I had only one. 02:06:26 Quadrescence: Cocoa is the same basically. 02:06:34 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 02:07:14 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:08:48 kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has joined #lisp 02:10:37 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:03 state of the art for end users or developers? 02:11:50 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 02:12:09 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:22 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 02:13:04 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:15 redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:42 spacefrogg^, developers 02:13:47 Spion, ** 02:14:43 from what (admittedly little) I've seen, cocoa doesn't seem state of the art to me. 02:14:58 I don't know any good one. 02:15:09 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:09 Spion: cocoa is still one of the best. 02:15:19 How about CLIM eh 02:15:22 But indeed it could be much better. 02:15:37 yeah. "state of the art" is just too strong I guess 02:15:40 I don't know CLIM enough. Perhaps indeed it would be better. 02:16:15 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:17:32 That said, I spend 99.99% of my time in emacs in ratpoison I don't feel the pain of GUI users. 02:18:30 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:46 -!- Forty-3 [~kvirc@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:28:08 -!- patient [~nuno@bl13-117-174.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:29:16 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:31:44 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:31:58 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:37:18 snajork [~snajork@99-99-73-168.lightspeed.chrlnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:29 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 02:39:15 _zxq9_ 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[~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:41:43 ice [~ice@123.114.34.82] has joined #lisp 03:44:11 cpecora [~user@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:07 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:07 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:50:27 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:56 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:55:34 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:58:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:00:08 -!- clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:01:30 CrLF0710 [~user@123.91.155.43] has joined #lisp 04:05:17 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:18 clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:02 -!- cpecora [~user@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:34 -!- clintm [~cmoore@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: clintm] 04:19:49 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has joined #lisp 04:20:46 bella 04:21:10 how about those self-referencing s-expressions ? 04:21:19 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:51 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #lisp 04:22:02 maybe lambda was their name 04:25:38 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:26:09 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:40:28 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:43:11 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 04:52:11 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit 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[~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:16 benny [~user@i577A747F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:40 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-86-188.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:36:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:43:40 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:17 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:47:03 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 08:49:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:55:07 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:01:43 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:07 pjb: ever tried going back to windows box? my notepads are full of C-t's :-) 09:02:14 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #lisp 09:02:45 in fact I had to do AutoIt3 script to map C-t C-t to alt-tab otherwise it was impossible to work 09:04:27 Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:51 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@CPE-121-216-251-216.lnse3.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:06:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:06:14 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@CPE-121-216-251-216.lnse3.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:00 ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:20 I never used Notepad.exe; I have several emacs installed on MS-Windows. 09:13:47 bitonic [~user@host86-133-194-16.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:14:40 But indeed, if I used Window Maker more often, I'd have to remap C-t too. 09:27:56 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:57 EyesIsMine 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:44:49 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@103-243-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:49 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:08 *maxm* has to work on client computers from time to time 09:47:13 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:48:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.62] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 09:48:49 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-194-16.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:18 bitonic [~user@host86-133-194-16.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:45 hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.233.156] has joined #lisp 09:54:43 Special_Burns [SpecialBur@180.148.36.218] has joined #lisp 09:55:54 -!- flashback [fb@bitchx/dev/flashback] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:56:39 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@103-243-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 09:56:41 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-86-188.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 09:58:38 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@46.233.233.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:59:54 RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:11 -!- RenJuan [~juan@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:53 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:05:11 flashback [fb@lysergide.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:39 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:16 Squee-D [~Squee-D@219-89-54-209.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:08:22 -!- Special_Burns [SpecialBur@180.148.36.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:09:32 im using a command like 'clisp -i foo.lisp' to load some code i've written and then work on it. Is there an easier way to reload my code if i've changed it than (quit) ? 10:11:53 pnq [~nick@ACA21461.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:49 minion: slime? 10:12:49 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 10:12:52 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:12:57 Squee-D: ^ 10:15:18 Squee-D: are you familiar with Emacs? 10:15:51 not really.. 10:15:59 used to use it over a decade ago 10:16:25 it hasn't changed much, hehe 10:16:34 yeah i have tho 10:16:57 SLIME would be a very good choice then, check it out like p_l|backup mentioned 10:17:09 sure will 10:18:51 Squee-D: among other niceties of SLIME, it allows you to recompile/reload the file you are editing using a command in the editor, and will underline compiler warnings on the relevant line in the editor buffer (I'm not sure if the latter is implemented for clisp) 10:19:37 not to mention that you can simply compile/evaluate last expression etc. 10:19:38 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 10:20:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-141-210.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:20:26 prabuinet [~prabuinet@122.178.172.244] has joined #lisp 10:20:32 Yeah I knew such a thing would exist, I'm just starting out so was trying to keep the distractions to a minimum. 10:20:46 was hoping the REPL would have something i could use. 10:21:23 REPL in it's purist form just does what it says on the tin (READ EVAL PRINT LOOP) 10:21:50 you need to wrap it in dev environment to make thinks easy for the programmer 10:22:54 Squee-D: yes, valid choice. You can setup some convenience functions to load from your init file, and (load "file.lisp") might help you. 10:24:08 I think it might as i've only used defparameter and defun so far 10:24:30 I really dont want to get bogged down in learning emacs just yet :D 10:25:13 you don't have to get 'bogged down' a couple of key chords will be suffice 10:25:31 and SLIME provides a very nice REPL 10:26:38 if you are really adverse to emacs you could try the free version of LispWorks 10:26:43 -!- prabuinet [~prabuinet@122.178.172.244] has left #lisp 10:27:05 Guthur i get thrown when i switch from Sublime which is a pretty straightforward text editor, and my usual ide Rubymine, so with that in mind, i just want to learn a bit of lisp :D 10:27:15 not averse, just "time-poor" 10:27:50 a good Lisp editor is important 10:28:08 personally I would hate to have no help in matching parenthesis 10:28:27 you will just end up chasing imbalance parenthesis unnecessarily 10:28:37 Ok dude, i get your point, im not a new programmer, im just wanting to enjoy myself and switching editors is a pain. 10:28:47 My text editor has parens matching 10:29:00 i am using a text editor. hence i have files to load. 10:29:08 that's cool 10:29:10 you're missing out a lot though using lisp like this though, restarting repl every time instead of just compiling code as you go. one of the best things about lisp is interactive development 10:29:36 actually thats a good point, i should just write a sublime builder, that will only take a few minutes 10:29:49 Oh geeze. 10:30:11 I'll give a hoot about that when i'm using more than 5 functions from an introductory book. 10:30:24 Thanks for the help tho. I know its well intended 10:30:27 fair enough 10:30:44 Squee-D: if you go with Emacs24 Starter Kit (just disable parts about clojure) and Quicklips you'd have pretty familiar editor with slime in no time 10:32:16 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.38.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:34:31 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-151-153.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:35:01 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-153.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:37:20 I'll grab it and give it a chance 10:38:55 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:31 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Sudden death] 10:42:00 Squee-D: before jumping into emacs and slime, you may try: clisp RET (load "file.lisp") RET (your-function) RET (load "file.lisp") RET (your-function) RET 10:42:41 pjb yeah its working for me at the moment thanks 10:43:05 vivitron suggested it earlier. 10:43:16 perfect for now 10:43:17 ok 10:43:48 Guthur: it's (loop (print (eval (read)))), not (read eval print loop). 10:43:57 ;-) 10:45:00 pjb: I was tempted to correct myself as well 10:45:48 yakov [~yakov@95-27-196-109.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:47:44 Squee-D: once you've learned Common Lisp, emacs lisp is easy to use. 10:48:28 Does anyone here have a meta key? Like someone still using a sun keyboard? 10:48:34 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.135.183] has joined #lisp 10:48:56 someone stuck "alt" on my meta key 10:49:19 -!- flashback [fb@lysergide.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:49:20 flashback [fb@bitchx/dev/flashback] has joined #lisp 10:49:20 lol 10:49:27 Squee-D: depends on your xmodmap. 10:49:38 i might just draw a diamond on mine 10:49:42 Check mine http://paste.lisp.org/display/123256 10:49:50 Use xev to find out the key codes. 10:50:05 I mean a real one. I used to have a sun sparcstation when i played with emacs, i was the only person i knew with a meta key 10:50:22 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:51:06 if you have a Das, that's got nothing on the keycaps yeah? 10:51:17 Indeed. 10:51:25 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 10:51:33 I've got three black keyboards. 10:52:10 I never got that, what's the advantage of blank keys? 10:52:19 dasKeyboard learn touch typing or perish 10:52:20 yeah i've never quite managed to touch type. Close, but not enough.. an 'uber' k/b would probably push me there, but im not up to the challenge 10:52:27 yeah that 10:52:44 well you can do the same with a qwerty keyboard and dvorak/colemak :P 10:52:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:52:51 which is what I do 10:53:04 for maximum confusion for other users 10:53:05 Squee-D: with a blank keyboard, it's easy. In less than a week you'll get it. 10:53:23 pjb: I doubt it, if he's already used to qwerty 10:53:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:41 switching layout, on the other hand... 10:54:14 pjb i was told the same about mac inverse scrolling in lion, and moving from windows to osx. 10:54:32 :-) 10:54:39 do they charge you more to not but the key labels on 10:54:41 The inverse scrolling is only good with the track pad. 10:54:42 that would classic 10:54:52 s/would/would be 10:55:08 fact is. i still suck hard at mac cursor strokes and it took me more like a month to get used to the scrolling 10:55:21 Guthur: they used to, but not anymore: http://www.daskeyboard.com/products/ 10:55:26 hence my fear about adding emacs to my efforts 10:55:31 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:55:32 Guthur: it's the switch quality that makes the price. 10:55:51 Squee-D: the only regret emacs users have is not having started using it much earlier. 10:55:57 pjb: sure, I was thinking more between the Pro (with labels) and the Ultimate 10:56:13 -!- yakov [~yakov@95-27-196-109.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:56:13 *bitonic* has a filco and is very happy about it 10:56:41 Guthur: now, the labels on the Das Keyboard are really nice. But a blank keyboard is too good, foremost in a work environment: coworker can't use your keyboard! :-) 10:58:06 i did use it much earlier 10:59:07 I use intellij/rubymine these days and find it really hard to let go of them :D 10:59:23 but not much good for lisp coding :D 11:01:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:03:25 bitonic: yes, the Filco Otaku TenKeyLess is super great. 11:03:45 pjb: I have a tenkeyless, I'm not sure if otaku 11:03:48 pjb: how loud is the dasKeyboard? 11:04:00 Guthur: those cherry switches are not that loud 11:04:14 less loud than the buckling spring ones 11:04:19 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:20 Guthur: it's an option, you can have a loud or a silent one. I choose loud keyboards :-) 11:04:31 I mean I use it at work and people don't complain 11:04:38 so it can't be too loud. 11:04:48 Now I have to program an autologin feature, where the computer listen to the sound of my typing and determine who's at the keyboard from the sound of it. 11:05:11 that's probably not too hard 11:05:29 I wonder how much text you need to have accurate recognition 11:05:30 Cornez at ravenpack has an IBM keyboard, it's louder than the DasKeyboard (and he types faster than me :-)). 11:06:06 yeah, those are much louder 11:06:10 bitonic: well, that would depend on how many persons you must distinguish, but usually it's quite striking. 11:06:51 . . . . . . vs ... .... .. 11:06:56 one of the people I work with has a very old Dell keyboard, I have never seen it on the internet, but it's very loud. and huge 11:07:02 frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 And if it's not loud enough, you can always add a little program to make typewriter sound when it receives keydown events :-) 11:07:59 sounds very similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj_WrIpDopI , but it's not the same 11:08:06 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11206140/typewriter-sounds-for-emacs 11:08:43 aha, it's this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC_rwPGtbsk 11:08:48 so bulky 11:09:03 what can I use to refactor lisp code? say I want to change the name of a function, asdf or a package that is used in multiple asd systems. is there anything out there that will do all the changes for me? 11:09:09 -!- Elench is now known as marzipig 11:09:33 -!- marzipig is now known as Zetetic 11:09:40 frx: you can use lisp itself. 11:10:05 CrLF0710` [~user@222.63.98.80] has joined #lisp 11:10:28 (with-open-file (src) (loop for sexp = (read src t src) until (eq src sexp) do (print (transform sexp)))) 11:11:17 i was hoping there's already a made solution 11:11:19 frx: you can try to do that in emacs, but there's a big problem with emacs: it cannot deal very well with CL reader macros. But for simple cases, it can be enough. Have a look at my map-sexps et al. functions. 11:11:55 https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/emacs/blobs/master/pjb-sources.el#line827 11:12:04 and https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/emacs/blobs/master/pjb-sources.el#line888 11:12:21 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@123.91.155.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:28 (but I don't guarantee their working, they're in a state of flux, needing some rewrite). 11:14:08 thanks ill check it out 11:14:10 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:01 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:22:19 Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-232-75.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 11:22:19 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-232-75.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 11:22:20 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 11:22:20 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.160.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:25:45 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0131ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:27:09 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-159-181.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:44 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:28:18 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:29:43 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:17 -!- Squee-D [~Squee-D@219-89-54-209.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: The computer fell asleep] 11:34:07 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-155.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-181.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:39:47 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.34.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:40:27 ice [~ice@123.114.34.82] has joined #lisp 11:40:36 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.135.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:40:56 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-140-177.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:47:19 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-96-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 11:48:49 jesusito [~user@88.pool85-54-115.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:49:07 When loading RESTAS I get "The loaded code expects an incompatible layout for class SB-PRETTY:PRETTY-STREAM." 11:51:06 Ah, it's TRIVIAL-BACKTRACE rather 11:52:00 kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has joined #lisp 11:58:55 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.106.225] has joined #lisp 11:59:11 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:00:15 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:15 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:44 wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:54 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:37 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 12:18:23 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:09 -!- Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:21:43 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:22:21 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 12:31:10 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:32:47 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 12:36:37 Qrt [Qrt@109.58.218.207.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 12:36:53 explain multimethods 12:37:48 That's actually multiple-dispatch methods: methods are selected on the classes of multiple arguments, instead of of a single argument. 12:38:22 so instead of selecting according to the first object like in java or python? 12:38:28 or not first argument 12:38:37 (defgeneric draw (form device)) (defclass rectangle (form) ()) (defclass circle (form) ()) (defclass bitmap (device)) (defclass pdf (device)) 12:38:41 it doesnt belong to a specific class but can be used by several classes? 12:39:11 --> you can have 4 methods: (defmethod draw ((form rectangle) (device bitmap))) (defmethod draw ((form rectangle) (device pdf))) (defmethod draw ((form circle) (device bitmap))) (defmethod draw ((form circle) (device pdf))) 12:39:28 Qrt: in CLOS, methods are attached to the generic function, not to the class. 12:39:35 Classes have slots; generic functions have methods. 12:40:00 That doesn't prevent you to put methods specialized mainly on a given class in the same file as the defclass. :-) 12:40:27 Generic functions have methods. Classes have slots. 12:40:29 just checked ravenpack out of curiosity. they may be interested in knowing that their front page has a glaring english grammar mistake. 12:40:38 punee: probably. 12:40:58 Yep, that's rather bad :-) 12:41:06 Send them a link to the famous comic. 12:41:25 Good read: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html 12:41:53 Or send them your resume http://ravenpack.com/aboutus/employment.htm mentionning that you know the difference between the two forms :-) 12:42:54 maybe i'll wait until i'm not a total cl noob anymore and just do that. :) 12:44:00 As you wish. Actually the job offer is permanent (they don't want competition to know when they actually do hire). And CL is only part of the requirements, they're selective on other criteria too. 12:44:51 punee: but that's where they are: https://www.google.com/search?q=marbella&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=b4j&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=NbsCULuAC4ic0AWNj5nHBw&ved=0CFcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=905 12:45:07 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:11 D: 12:45:18 pjb: looks nice 12:45:27 *Bacteria* rethinks his career 12:46:44 There's also siscog in Lisboa: http://siscog.eu/ https://www.google.com/search?q=lisboa&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=BRP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qrsCUMevOMKm0AXC6ZmbAg&ved=0CE0Q_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=905 12:47:37 And a recent lispjob in Adelaide: http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/common-lisp-programmer-accenture-interactive-adelaide-south-australia/ https://www.google.com/search?q=adelaide&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=bm4&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3LsCUL_zDc2Z0QXl3tS3BQ&ved=0CF0Q_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=905 12:48:16 Yes, "strangely enough", lisp jobs don't concentrate in bad places :-) 12:48:25 Hahaha 12:48:26 "Code samples are greatly appreciated as well" 12:48:41 Well sure, for any job. 12:49:05 my code examples - first line (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((. last line of the code is - ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 12:49:07 Imagine hiring a cook without tasting his cooking. 12:49:28 :D 12:49:29 theos: that'd be bad, because no CL program can start with more than two openning parenthesis. 12:49:47 alright, then i will just send the last line 12:50:09 -!- jesusito [~user@88.pool85-54-115.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 12:50:18 And then you'll be considered a jerk and your resume thrown in the trash in less time than needed to say it. 12:50:37 theos: and even two would not be very common (pun not intended) 12:50:41 best to just code up a small example project 12:50:43 pjb well i was just joking :S i dont need a job 12:51:22 i should include something like or next time :/ 12:51:41 theos: "hah" 12:51:48 :D 12:51:52 good joke don't need markup, hehe 12:52:00 >.< 12:52:34 :P 12:53:04 we don't use verbose *tml tags in here. instead do (:joke ) 12:53:46 (defmacro :joke (&rest args) `(format t "Hey you know something funny: ~{~A~^ ~}~%" ',args)) 12:54:27 then (:joke ) prints: Hey you know something funny: 12:54:29 ok so i need to learn lisp to say a joke now... great! 12:54:53 well obviously you CAN'T be funny if you don't know lisp. 12:55:11 right 12:55:18 *Bacteria* concurs 12:56:24 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:57 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:57:57 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 12:59:28 hitecnologys [~No_Name@178.74.73.64] has joined #lisp 12:59:35 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:44 :) 13:02:12 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:02:39 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:07 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 13:04:11 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:10:11 Well, I compiled up sbcl for my cluster. Just in case 13:14:58 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:52 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:20:52 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:24 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.41.242.32] has quit [Quit: paul0] 13:23:46 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:24:20 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:06 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.87] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 13:27:48 -!- Qrt [Qrt@109.58.218.207.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 13:29:32 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:31:00 Connecting to common-lisp.net (common-lisp.net)|74.115.254.14|:80... 13:31:03 Is the site down? 13:32:41 Can't access it from here 13:33:03 Getting 100% packet loss 13:33:22 I run smokeping against it, complete drop off at about 2 hours ago 13:34:06 Have any of you got asdf-2.016.tar.gz and wouldn't mind giving me a link to download it? 13:34:10 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:34:15 Can't google it out on mirrors somehow. 13:35:38 I have the git repo, I can make you one. 13:36:00 That's be great, thx. 13:36:09 http://xach.com/tmp/asdf-2.016.tar.gz is it 13:36:12 s/'s/'d/ 13:36:15 thx 13:36:16 taken from the 2.016 tag 13:36:16 -!- kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37:48 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:38:37 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:39:19 Xach: downloaded, thx. 13:40:12 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 13:41:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:42:54 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:49:40 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:47 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:53:31 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:12 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21461.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:59:43 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 13:59:45 -!- Guest996` [user@nat/google/x-mdicnbnnjqdgwkux] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:02:18 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-159-181.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08:32 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 14:11:46 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:54 tony` [~tony@5ac37acc.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:32 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:54 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:56 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:13 Any help? TRIVIAL-BACKTRACE gives me "The loaded code expects an incompatible layout for class SB-PRETTY:PRETTY-STREAM" 14:20:30 seems to be a collision with swank/restas (hunchentoot) 14:24:03 asvil [~asvil@178.120.160.72] has joined #lisp 14:27:42 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:27 nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:05 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:38 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 14:39:06 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 14:39:32 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:40:41 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:49 pjb: i know what touch devices do. 'new tech' seems to make the content more interactive, more direct, towards the final users. s-expressions are further away from that view. i also doubt that we'll move away from /graphical/ user interfaces with the rise of tablets and smartphones. in terms of it being part of our history: yes, that's true, but it was still offtopic. and for the matter of it, it's a biased, limited, so 14:41:49 structured piece of history. i fail to see how i could learn from it at all, and it's relevance is limited. 14:42:26 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 14:44:47 Are symbol property list idiomatic? Peter Norvig uses them in PAIP but I haven't seen them used as often outside of that. 14:45:11 Classic GUI are characterized by WIMP = Window Icon Menu Pointer. 14:46:19 What I mean is that Windows are dead: full screen is becoming the norm. Icons are dead (there remains only buttons, perhaps graphical, but you don't manipulate icons, move them, etc). Menus are dead too, even if some kind of simulated menus appear sometimes eg on web pages, and of course, Pointer is dead, being replaced by Finger. 14:46:25 Guthur: They aren't as common as they used to be, from what I can tell. 14:46:52 So the touch-screen (and soon the 3D gesture input) user interfaces will still draw things on the screen, but they're not GUIs anymore. 14:47:17 Guthur: they can be used, but it's often much easier to define a class or a structure. 14:47:24 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:46 Guthur: sometimes, a class will include a plist for optional slots, or other data that will be known only at run-time. 14:47:46 pjb, Xach: yeah I was getting similar vibes 14:48:28 But if you have a lot of them (more than 5-36 depending on the implementation) a hash-table would be faster (but a hash-table consumes more memory than a plist). 14:49:00 pjb: wow you just went from GUI to WIMP without any issues... i don't see how going away from WIMP means going away from GUI :P in a very limited interpretation of GUI, you get WIMP, yes... 14:49:43 madnificent: I said Classig GUI. Since GUI = Graphical User Interface, you can argue that iOS/Android/Windows-8 are still GUI. But what people understand by GUI was really WIMP. 14:49:44 either case, i'm curious what the effect will be, but this is offtopic 14:49:58 and counter-productive 14:50:06 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:07 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:50:15 Not really offtopic: if we can write the next user interface in Lisp, that may be the killer application. Like WIMP has been for Smalltalk :-) 14:50:26 And notice that Objective-C = C + Smalltalk. 14:51:45 And Java too is basically Smalltalk with C-like syntax. 14:52:56 fair enough, looks like i took the troll bait. 14:52:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839C14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:58:12 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:55 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 15:00:59 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 15:02:55 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.62] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:03:48 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:06 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:25 Yuuhi [benni@p54839C14.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:27 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 Deston [~futune@S0106602ad0905680.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:13 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 is cmucl no longer being used? 15:07:18 pjb, what do you mean by 'next user interface' btw? 15:07:22 bjorkintosh: people who use cmucl use it 15:07:43 apt-get didn't see it which is why i'm asking. 15:07:57 I don't think that's a good way to measure Common Lisp use. 15:08:05 *shrug* 15:08:10 sbcl and clisp are there. 15:08:23 i was just wondering if i had to compile it myself. 15:09:16 To compile cmucl you need cmucl. 15:09:37 For me, that always made it fairly unnecessary to compile it. 15:09:56 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:09:57 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 15:09:57 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:10:39 aha. 15:13:38 alright good. i don't need it afterall. 15:14:28 bjorkintosh: sbcl has been forked from cmucl to make it easier to compile with other CL implementations and streamline the development of sbcl compared to cmucl. But cmucl is still alive, only it release about once per year, while sbcl releases once per month. 15:14:55 ccl needs ccl to compile, so like cmucl it releases about once per year. 15:14:55 thanks. i'm using sbcl now. 15:15:07 clisp needs C to compile so it releases about once every two or three years. 15:15:09 :-) 15:15:26 and sbcl uses pure electrons huh? 15:15:30 Yep. 15:15:35 badass. 15:15:37 Pure lisp electrons from God. 15:15:51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OjTPj7K54 15:16:03 yakov [~user@ip-83-149-3-199.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:16:04 the chuck norris of lisps. 15:16:48 bobtot please number the packages -1, -2, -3 etc. not all 0.0.4-1 15:17:11 sorry wrong channel 15:17:50 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:52 -!- mgsk [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 15:20:39 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:21:03 someone created a song about lisp. 15:21:05 ye gads. 15:21:14 jesusito [~user@88.pool85-54-115.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:22:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:21 there are at least two, see http://landoflisp.com/ (video about one screen down) 15:23:06 bitonic` [~user@host86-138-96-187.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:06 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 15:23:06 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 15:23:06 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:23:14 haha. i saw that one and stopped it right as the music started. 15:23:38 if anyone heard me playing such songs, they'd think i was a nerd :-S 15:23:41 and we can't have that! 15:23:41 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:25 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-194-16.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:24:37 pnq [~nick@AC81D289.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:38 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 bjorkintosh: http://libs-spot.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/ted-2012-be-nice-to-nerds.html 15:29:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:23 bjorkintosh: http://www.ted.com/talks/regina_dugan_from_mach_20_glider_to_humming_bird_drone.html 15:29:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:53 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 15:30:01 bjorkintosh: also related: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm 15:30:33 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:28 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.160.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:26 alright. i'll tell them. 15:33:28 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:35:50 bitonic`` [~user@host86-133-193-158.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:07 -!- yakov [~user@ip-83-149-3-199.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:01 -!- bitonic` [~user@host86-138-96-187.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:37:41 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:20 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:39:52 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:12 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:42:16 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:42:44 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.106.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:43:44 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:50 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:56 francogrex [~user@109.130.41.198] has joined #lisp 15:44:04 what is new and exciting? 15:44:11 hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@46.233.232.115] has joined #lisp 15:44:52 Let's write AI-based UI of the future in Common Lisp. 15:45:56 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@178.74.73.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:46:22 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:46:33 oh, oh, I know the first and most important error message! "Sorry Dave, I can't do that" 15:47:02 "Computer says no" 15:48:03 pjb, what would this UI look like? 15:48:51 bjorkintosh: UI look is rather transient, changes with fashion 15:49:09 pjb: thanks for the reply on cll for the toy translator of lisp to SAS. I never imagined just a small piece of code would need hat much (imagine writing a translator to the whole language!) 15:52:24 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:53:10 svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58:30 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:18 So this is a little bit of an odd question.. but does anyone here read Homestuck? 16:01:21 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@46.233.232.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:02:25 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:41 what is that? 16:02:56 is it lisp-related 16:02:56 A webcomic 16:03:03 Haha sorry. I'll be quiet now 16:03:31 are you the creator of Homestuck, zulu_inuoe? 16:03:40 No 16:04:06 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has joined #lisp 16:07:15 i've read bits of it before but i'm not a fan. 16:07:59 That's cool. I was just curious to see if any lispers here were into it 16:08:08 Xach: you there? 16:08:14 it's my second religion after CL 16:08:55 lisp is your religion? 16:09:07 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:09:18 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:50 Close enough 16:09:55 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:11:41 'cause lambda is the ultimate right? 16:12:04 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:12:15 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.41.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:01 Let's write a new CL implementation and name it Ponzi Lisp :-) 16:13:11 Eheh 16:13:38 hmm. ponzi racket might be catchier. 16:13:46 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:13:54 or whatever racket was called before. 16:13:56 minion: memo for francogrex: it could have been smaller, or much bigger. You should precise the purpose to get a better toy. 16:14:16 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:24 I couldn't find the name "Racket" again, I was thinking "Rape". 16:14:37 That's really a lame name. 16:15:01 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has joined #lisp 16:15:53 bjorkintosh: God emanates as a Quine lambda calculus mathematical being, and uses lambda calculus to create/program the universe. 16:16:21 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:34 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:17:36 or! call it ponzi department-of-the-treasurey-and-the-fed-are-in-bed-with-wall-street-to-screw-us-all-over. 16:17:36 teggi [~teggi@113.172.38.202] has joined #lisp 16:17:40 very catchy. 16:18:10 very lisp-like name too. 16:18:12 bjorkintosh: it's like the vacuum energy; He created the universe to His image too. In the Vacuum, there are fluctuations of energy that may go up to the creation of a pair of particule/antiparticule. In the universe of mathematical beings, all things happens (there's no time, but if there was time, you could imagine a fluctuation of mathematical beings). Some lambda calculus Quines "fluctuate", one of them is God. 16:18:25 bjorkintosh: :-) 16:18:58 how did lambda ever come into being? 16:19:43 -!- CrLF0710` [~user@222.63.98.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:06 ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:07 -!- bitonic`` [~user@host86-133-193-158.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:20:37 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81D289.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:21:57 bjorkintosh: lambda is a mathematical being. It just is. 16:24:36 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 16:26:01 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:50 Is anyone who is involved with the hu.dwim-Serialiser on this channel? 16:34:53 So, it has come to this. 16:35:02 come to what? 16:35:08 To this. 16:35:14 http://xkcd.com/1023/ 16:35:25 Hey, it's Sunday! 16:35:54 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-193-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 16:36:20 Nop 16:36:24 It's monday already 16:36:27 :-) 16:40:28 Sorella [~quildreen@189-13-86-143.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:40:29 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-13-86-143.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:29 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 16:41:18 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:41:40 Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-214-241.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:44:24 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:49:31 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:11 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:24 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:30 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:03 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 16:54:05 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:32 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:10 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:55:12 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:23 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:46 wth 16:57:55 my emacs is gone in stumpwm... 16:58:04 no messages 16:58:18 it disappeared .... 16:58:22 and you're ... that's right! stumped. 16:58:23 without any notice 16:58:53 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:57 homie: are you trying to improve stumpwm? 16:59:16 if not it doesn't really sound like it's worth the effort 17:01:09 no 17:01:33 i was using emacs like this one here now, on another workspace, and it suddenly dissappeard 17:02:24 i'm trying C-t gn to change workspaces and C-t n for cycling the frames.... 17:02:31 but why would emacs disappear ? 17:02:37 with a running sbcl in it ? 17:02:46 and no messages either 17:02:58 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:00 pull up a terminal and see if it's still up. 17:03:12 wait 17:03:59 for what? 17:04:52 nope, no sbcl process to be found 17:05:24 and no emacs process running? 17:05:32 if so, could it be that you killed it? 17:05:56 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:06:42 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 17:07:40 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:44 -!- Deston [~futune@S0106602ad0905680.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:30 lebro [~monx@ool-18bab6ce.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:34 no 17:09:59 err, or maybe 17:10:50 hi, is there a workaround in postmodern that lets me send multiple queries as a single batch? 17:11:27 I think it may be quicker to do batch updates as true batches 17:12:34 ok, common-lisp.net is back up ... it seems that I had to xm destroy / xm create it for it to work 17:13:17 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-29-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:13:29 the console dod not show me errors at all, but it was hung... I tried a few things but ended up having to power it off/up 17:13:37 did* 17:14:11 -!- frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 17:14:20 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:16:01 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 17:16:06 SBCL memory management question: I'm running into a generational trap where I'm quickly consing up and discarding a lot of memory (which an explicit call to gc fixes), but is there a way to clue sbcl to be a bit more aggressive about garbage collecting so I don't get a out of heap error when it does? 17:16:09 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:58 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:06 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-31-234.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bab6ce.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:17:40 What's happenign to me seems to be what nikodemus describes in 4. here: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/15630 17:19:07 sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:26:56 mungojelly [~mungojell@li509-123.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:16 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:53 ZabaQ [~Zaba@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:36:04 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 17:36:21 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:28 asvil [~asvil@178.120.160.72] has joined #lisp 17:43:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:45:41 sellout1 [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 17:46:10 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:46:14 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 17:47:03 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:47:16 What's the best way to set up asdf without pre-configuring the computer? That is, I'd like to be able to (load "project.lisp") and have it set up all the library directories and the like for asdf, so that I can then (asdf:load-system :my-project) 17:47:43 zulu_inuoe: quicklisp includes asdf 17:47:58 zulu_inuoe: however, many implementations include asdf by default 17:48:36 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:55 pnq [~nick@AC813F6B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:56 I know it does and that's what I've been using, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of misadvertently relying on a library I do not have in a specific directory, since it'll go off to the interwebs to find it 17:49:03 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:19 Ah wait, you might have misunderstood my question.. I did not specify this 17:49:50 So I install SBCL on a machine, (require :asdf), then (load "project.lisp") and have it set everything up so I can then (asdf:load-system :my-project) 17:50:29 zulu_inuoe: So, you're asking what has to be in project.lisp to set everything up, right? 17:50:45 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:50:47 Yea. How do I tell it "This is where all my stuff is" 17:51:08 zulu_inuoe: Should only have to do something like (push *project-dir* asdf:*central-registry*) 17:51:19 Assuming all the libs you need are in *project-dir* 17:51:36 That's right, but I thought using asdf:*central-registry* was deprecated 17:51:54 So I was looking for another solution.. 17:52:43 zulu_inuoe: I don't know if it's deprecated  but the source-registry is another way to go. I've only used the ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf  I don't know what structures are created when that is loaded. I assumed it modified central-registry, but maybe not. 17:53:35 Yes I looked at the various options to set the source-registry, but all of them seemed really static 17:54:00 totzeit1 [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 zulu_inuoe: Yeah, that was my feeling. Great for a user, but not for distributing. 17:54:12 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:54:53 sellout: I'll just use the central registry. Thanks bud! 17:59:10 -!- totzeit1 [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:09 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:15 snearch [~snearch@f053008056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:37 -!- svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:28 I now let quicklisp manage it all. I place libraries I want explicit control over in local-projects and everything is rosy 18:11:54 Libraries in local-project can be loaded by the usual quickload interface and are loaded before the quicklisp distributions are checked 18:15:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:16:31 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:18:18 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:54 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 18:25:23 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:26 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:30 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-214-241.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 18:30:38 Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-214-241.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:39:21 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:39:37 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44:09 dnolen [~user@pool-68-161-100-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:10 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 18:44:11 svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:44:40 -!- svedubois [~Sven@xdsl-188-155-123-49.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 18:46:26 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 18:50:33 josemanuel [~josemanue@104.164.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:54:01 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:30 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:41 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:43 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:59 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.38.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:50 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 19:06:48 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:09:14 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:47 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:15:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:35 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:23:39 ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has joined #lisp 19:30:32 -!- nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:31:10 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:14 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:35:23 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:36:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:39:36 Deston [~futune@S0106602ad0905680.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:42 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:03 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:22 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 19:48:55 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129090088.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:51:52 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:52:09 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:16 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:24 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:12 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-006-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:07:08 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:34 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:08 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:09 Kryztof: I finally read that paper, "Evaluating the Design of the R Language". That's some crazy stuff. 20:08:30 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:56 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:27 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:51 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:01 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 20:11:40 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:10 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:35 maxm: was ist los? 20:13:40 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:47 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584728.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:15:46 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:16:16 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-214-241.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 20:16:26 Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-214-241.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 gigamonkey: heh 20:18:15 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:05 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:13 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:19:19 Have you read it? 20:19:21 -!- Sorella_ is now known as Sorella 20:19:29 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-214-241.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 20:19:29 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 20:19:45 I especially like how R is neither a Lisp-1 nor a Lisp-2 but a Lisp-1.5. 20:19:57 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:22:03 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 20:22:18 I think I have skimmed it. But I have worked with (against :-) the language for long enough 20:22:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.52] has joined #lisp 20:22:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.52] has quit [Changing host] 20:22:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:22:57 oh, yes, the authors actually look at what R code in the wild uses, too 20:22:59 I have read that 20:23:57 the lazy evaluation with crazy scope is what makes me laugh 20:24:03 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:47 And the fact that in practice most promises get forced right away. 20:25:54 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:56 -!- pnq [~nick@AC813F6B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:26:01 Xach: I vaguely remember you saying you were using nginx, and also hunchentoot, so I was wondering how did you connect them together? As I can't seem to find fcgi adapter between them 20:26:37 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has joined #lisp 20:26:52 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:02 i just read this: How to Read a Paper ( http://blizzard.cs.uwaterloo.ca/keshav/home/Papers/data/07/paper-reading.pdf ) 20:27:04 it's very good. 20:27:13 how is R a lisp-1.5? 20:27:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:28:06 maxm: reverse proxy 20:28:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:28:50 maxm: l1sp.org has "location / { proxy_pass http://localhost:7718; }" 20:29:26 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 20:31:35 ah ok, thanks. I'm just starting on nginx, so a bit clueless as to how you go with it 20:31:43 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:32:44 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 20:32:58 it's like apache but with a super terse config syntax and way fewer things to think about to get going. 20:33:12 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:32 yakov [~user@ip-83-149-2-44.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 20:33:47 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.88.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:34:00 bjorkintosh: well, if you call a function foo and there's a binding for foo in the current scope which points to a function it is invoked. 20:34:22 But if there's a binding for foo in the current scope that's not a function, it looks to the parent scope. 20:34:45 So in the current scope it's a Lisp-1--there can only be one binding for foo. 20:34:46 I thought there was some fancy addon to hunchentoot making it speak fastcgi or such.. Who does the max concurrent requests limit in the reverse proxy setup, the nginx? Or it will submit as many as backend server can handle, and basically will rely on timeouts if backend does not accept() fast enough? 20:35:02 I don't know. I don't have a lot of traffic. 20:35:18 But you can have both a variable foo (in the current scope) and a function named foo (found in a higher-up scope) so it's kind of a Lisp-2. 20:35:23 Thus Lisp-1.5. 20:35:25 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:35:36 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:35:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.23.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:00 yakov` [~user@178.178.42.121] has joined #lisp 20:39:38 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:39:53 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:53 -!- yakov [~user@ip-83-149-2-44.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:41:20 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:23 yakov`` [~user@95-26-127-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:42:10 nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-96-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:43:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:45:22 -!- yakov` [~user@178.178.42.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:49 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:47:24 yakov``` [~user@178.178.42.121] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 Is there something like remove-if that operates on indices of a sequence? Or do I need to generate a list of indices? 20:50:36 -!- yakov`` [~user@95-26-127-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:51:52 kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has joined #lisp 20:53:37 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:46 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:30 *maxm* actually used this as interview question 20:54:46 especially if indexes are not sorted 20:54:52 maxm: what? removing elements from a sequence? 20:54:52 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-46-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:10 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 20:55:19 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:03 Guthur: yea, find a bug in code, code receives ArrayList and another array of indexes, then naively loops over them and calls array.removeAt(i); 20:56:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:50 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:57 sepi: i don't think so, but using loop and collect will probably get you there 20:57:04 sepi: I forgot what is the official way of the technique, but what you do is 1st map sequence to (index . ) and then do remove-if, and tehn map back 20:57:22 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:57:26 Perl folks call it the Schwartzian Transform. 20:57:31 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has joined #lisp 20:57:36 maxm: seems more complex and it will require more conses than just consing up a new list, no? 20:57:49 Though ISTR just seeing a more official name for it somewhere. 20:57:58 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:58:01 gigamonkey: ah thanks was on a tip of my tongue 20:58:08 madnificent: what if indexes are 3,2,1 20:59:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:16 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:02:08 (loop with nonce = (cons nil nil) for i in indices do (setf (aref array i) nonce) finally (return (delete nonce array))) 21:03:57 drakma url-encodes my "http://foo" parameter which confuses selenium 21:04:05 whom to blame? 21:04:14 ah pretty good.. assuming its non-specialized array, coz some have no magic value.. My preferred java answer just make array of booleans, then copy 21:04:18 -!- yakov``` is now known as yakov 21:04:54 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:04:55 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 forget it. 21:06:54 found simpleprogrammer's commit. 21:09:52 Eulo [~tae@78-72-37-188-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:43 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-46-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:24 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-46-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:13:04 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:15 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:23 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:16:31 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-46-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:17:17 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-135-88.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:05 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 21:18:16 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 21:18:49 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:19:17 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:23 ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:44 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:05 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:50 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:21:56 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 maxm: how about just sorting the indices in reverse order and then doing the removeAt? 21:23:38 That's what I'd probably do i Java asuming you wanted to side effect the original array. 21:23:40 gigamonkey: yea that works too, I accepted pretty much any answer (hashtable too), the trick to this interview question was a) find bug in code that at first glance seem legit, b) rewrite it 21:23:58 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-46-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:17 *gigamonkey* is now ready for that question! 21:24:28 one guy spent 10 minutes writing loops inside loops to adjust indices array after he deleted element, was sad 21:24:34 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:25:19 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.98.220] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:26:51 If anybody's interested, I started to write some CL code about LUA. Completed so far is a LUA scanner (just tested on a lofc2 mission file). Next will come a LUA parser, and perhaps a LUA interpreter or compiler. 21:27:03 -!- yakov [~user@178.178.42.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:10 I also pushed my linc code, but it's in the middle of some overhaul and not usable as is. 21:28:10 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 21:28:58 pjb, are you writing it as an exercise? 21:29:06 or is there a need for a lua interpreter in cl? 21:29:12 gigamonkey: do you mean: (defun foo () 1) (let ((foo 42)) (loop (if (numberp foo) (setf foo (lambda () 0)) 42) (print (foo)))) will print 1 0 1 0  ? 21:29:28 bjorkintosh: There's a need not to touch any other programming language than CL ! :-) 21:29:50 of course. 21:29:56 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-37.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:01 bjorkintosh: and unfortunately some "data" files are written in LUA instead of CL, notably in flight simulators such as Lock On Flamming Cliffs 2 and FlightGear. 21:31:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:16 Now, imagining that we have a good LUA to CL compiler, that could generate faster code than LUA, we could perhaps motivate those flight simulator developers to replace LUA by CL (providing upward or continuing compatibility with LUA) and improve their performance. 21:32:21 Furthermore, one problem they have is that they're real-time: lua code must run within a frame. And of course, they have difficulties ensuring that. But with lisp code, we could use delimited continuation to compile those routines into split chunks to be spread automatically over several ticks, and so on. 21:32:21 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@104.164.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:32:31 (they did something like that in Crash Bandicot). 21:32:55 With enough resources, I'd do that for every language. :-) 21:34:09 pjb, they can say the same of C/c++ 21:34:21 lua->cpp for faster performance. 21:34:32 most of them don't know cl, so they'll take the easier option every time. 21:35:24 bjorkintosh: No. C++ routines are necessarily the slowest. 21:35:34 You get better performance with lisp code, not with C or C++. 21:35:39 http://cliki.net/Performance 21:35:46 eh? 21:35:59 The reason is simple: if the routine wasn't slow, it would have been left in LUA, it wouldn't have been written in C++! 21:36:21 So in an application, the slowest parts are written in C/C++. 21:37:51 And since those languages are much less maleable than lisp, they're the most rigid parts of the application, the parts that becomes "legacy" and the ball and chains they have drag. 21:37:56 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:04 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 21:38:14 hmm. 21:38:38 i'm still skeptical. performance-wise, i've never heard of cl topping the list. 21:38:43 Code written in static language soon becomes static code, and quite unmaintainable. 21:38:50 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:38:52 bjorkintosh: check the link above. 21:39:10 and as i understand it, no one uses ruby/python/lua/scheme/lisp etc for performance reasons. 21:39:15 (second part if you're interested in run-time performace instead of programmer time performance). 21:39:32 i did. those papers are at least 6 years old. 21:39:59 But again, having better programmer time performance means that your programmers can spend more time optimizing or evolving the software, so eventually it becomes faster at run time and more featureful. 21:40:12 bjorkintosh: if you have the means, you can do a new study. 21:40:20 Better studies are always welcome. 21:40:24 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:40:38 haha. i do not have the means. 21:40:39 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 21:40:55 eg. nowadays, you could take into account quicklisp vs cpan vs gem vs apt-get :-) 21:41:02 i like lisp plenty. i just don't reach for it when i think 'performance'. 21:41:10 apt-get for us all. 21:41:33 ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:45 bjorkintosh: check again those paper. You can write CL programs that have better performance than C programs. 21:43:50 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-26-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:44:15 hmm. i still have my doubts. doesn't mean i won't use lisp. 21:45:26 the Cliki page links scientific papers, not thoughts :) 21:46:04 bjorkintosh: actually, run-time performances are only related to the man.hour invested on the compilers. Compared to Fortran, C++, Java and Javascript, the time invested on CL compilers is infinitesimal. That we have such performance is almost a miracle. If you had a few $million to invest in CL compilers, I wouldn't be surprised if we achieved fantastic performance. 21:46:17 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:49 daimrod, i say those papers are nearly obsolete as the newest one there is 6.something years old. 21:47:13 i also don't particularly care about cl's performance. i just want to use it! 21:47:46 All right, but I doubt CL compilers get worse with time... 21:47:57 obsolete, regarding performance. other compilers get better with time. 21:49:10 Anyways, indeed nowadays the point would be to write compilers targetting many core processors. (100s Intel cores, 1000s GPU cores). 21:49:49 -!- jesusito [~user@88.pool85-54-115.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 21:49:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:49:53 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:12 or VMs 21:52:41 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:53:58 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:55:08 cddr [~user@108-89-212-211.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:57 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:01 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@180.101.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:00:04 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:16 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-46-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:45 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:01:36 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:10 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:35 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.160.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:52 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-87-19.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:09:02 pjb: man I wish there was a SBCL branch with thread migration 22:09:08 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:09:58 cilk is just so perfect for CL and multi-core, except inability to just plain savepoint/transfer to the other thread, requiring crazy codewalking and stuff 22:10:23 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:13:34 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:04 -!- tony` [~tony@5ac37acc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:56 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-47-174.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:20:09 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:21:49 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:21:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:08 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 22:23:36 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:49 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:49 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:07 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:20 -!- Deston [~futune@S0106602ad0905680.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:31:06 ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has joined #lisp 22:31:18 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:43 actually I expect with large amount of cores, stop the world becomes the bottleneck, not any parallel/fork/join mechanics 22:33:54 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:56 so for 16+ cores, on lisp you need either to be careful and very stringy with consing, or have MxN model splitting stuff into M processes each using N threads 22:34:16 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 22:36:11 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 22:36:45 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 22:39:45 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-244-26-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:41:07 maxm: obviously, we have to write new garbage collectors. Even for a few cores, you'd want some multi-theaded and some real-time GCs. 22:41:22 sbcl -rtgc ; sbcl -mtgc 22:41:48 is there not already research in those areas for other managed languages? 22:42:07 Guthur: there are OLD papers about both MT and RT GC! 22:42:50 just a lack of effort to implement then? 22:42:50 But if you have to believe bjorkintosh, old papers have no worth, all the research must be done anew. :-) 22:42:59 Guthur: yes. 22:43:25 Not that implementing them in real languages like CL is simple. That's a lot of work. 22:43:55 The big problem is that there are not enough university professor using CL, so not enough students projects to advance it. 22:44:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:44:01 CMU dropped CMUCL. 22:45:10 That said, it's normal, the research is done, now it's up to the corportations to make the developments. If they don't (and it's also quite normal that they don't), too bad for them, but the academia did their job. 22:45:26 The reason why corporation don't use lisp is the Law of the Mean. 22:45:39 yep, Open Source needs to pick up the slack, hehe 22:45:41 or Average if you prefer. 22:46:26 There is more profit to be made by making average products for average customers with average employes, than trying to do something extraordinary for a niche with extraordinary employees. 22:46:35 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:47:07 Hence the Concorde and Tu-144, the Shuttle and Buran, MacOS and MS-Windows, etc. Average products for average people. 22:47:28 Well, Apple tries to be a tad better than the average, but they're still not revoltionary at all. 22:47:44 would never have classed Concorde as particularly average 22:47:48 (otherwise we'd already have flying cars and Moon and Mars bases. 22:48:17 Guthur: what wouldn't be average, is a MFD craft flying at Mach 12. 22:48:37 MHD I mean. 22:49:46 only 2 supersonic transport aircraft out of a myriad of subsonic craft didn't strike me as average 22:50:20 I must admit I was not aware of Tu 144 being the first actually 22:51:09 It's explained in http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/2756311030/ref=oss_product 22:51:56 Well, their non-existance is proof the law. 22:54:02 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:02 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:59 pjb: I think that's about right. (There was a syntax error in your code but assuming you meant (setf foo (if (numberp foo) (lambda () 0) 42)), yes, that's my understanding.) 22:59:40 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:02:02 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:51 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:43 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 23:11:06 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:48 gigamonkey: that's kind of a DWIM solution, but it doesn't sound safe. 23:14:41 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.234.204] has joined #lisp 23:19:14 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 23:21:28 clintm [~cmoore@131.191.81.130] has joined #lisp 23:22:18 Funny thing: readers on conditions are specified as functions, not as generic functions. 23:23:01 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:15 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:26:22 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:29:52 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:31:22 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.62] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 23:34:12 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.245.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:34:13 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: dobranoc] 23:34:31 bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-80.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:12 pnq [~nick@AC810769.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-199.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:43 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-133-193-80.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:52:06 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:53:04 -!- Guest32731 is now known as xristos 23:54:02 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 23:54:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:57:21 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:36 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp