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I wanted to know how easy is it to learn lisp if you are an absolute beginner to programming and computer science? 01:55:24 ANewLisper: i think it is easy than C. 01:56:06 ANewLisper: I think it's probably one of the easiest 01:56:48 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:57:39 ANewLisper: It's certainly possible (e.g., MIT's introductory programming class, 6.001, was taught in scheme for decades). If you want an intro to computer science I'd recommend (the scheme-based) SICP. If you want an intro to programming (i.e., just want to build cool stuff like websites) I'd recommend Python (a lot of friends have had luck with http://learnpythonthehardway.org/) 01:57:48 Well I have past experience with java and so I heard the conversion to C/C++ is not as difficult 01:57:51 ANewLisper: nothing to stop an absolute beginner learning lisp. it would be good to start out with, actually 01:59:01 I like lisp because it seems easy to implement algorhrims and create 01:59:19 Programs fast 02:00:55 ANewLisper: Relative to Java or C, I think most would agree it's much easier to get started with Lisp. Relative to Ruby/Python/etc, I think it's open for debate 02:01:53 Oh alright thank you for your help everyone 02:02:01 gko [~user@59-120-37-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:36 I asked for a resource to learn lisp here before and they gave me this book that I have recorded somewhere 02:03:18 So could you name some more good sources for lisp if you know any (beginner books, etc) 02:03:53 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-111-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:04:36 ANewLisper: try land of lisp.but it's not free 02:05:02 -!- ANewLisper [b89114f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.20.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:05:03 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-15-77.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:05:16 johnarmstrong [~johnarmst@64.228.159.83] has joined #lisp 02:05:25 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:06:13 I am interested in learning scheme where do i begin? 02:06:34 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 02:06:35 johnarmstrong: #scheme is a good place ;) 02:06:42 ANewLisper [b89114f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.20.241] has joined #lisp 02:06:56 Practical Common Lisp 02:06:58 thanks 02:07:14 Yes that's the book I got before 02:07:22 is lisp used in the industry any longer, i hear it's mostly for AI... 02:07:28 Is that really good for beginners? 02:07:47 ita software is famous for its industrial applications of lisp. 02:08:03 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:51 ANewLisper: I'd say so, I found it a huge help when I first looked at lisp, in 2005.. 02:09:27 gko: is that practical common lisp book good for beginners to programming and cs? 02:10:02 johnarmstrong: That AI thing is an old association. Like when people say lisp is interpreted, or many other out of date things. This is the problem of having a label older than everything other than Fortran. 02:10:03 Oh so is it out of date or something? 02:10:11 ANewLisper: yep. check for yourself: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 02:10:27 PCL is more for programmers, and it's for CL, not Scheme 02:10:53 What is scheme useful for? 02:10:54 ANewLisper: A couple small bits  like using LispInABox or LispBox or whatever are out of date, but 99% of PCL is still very current. 02:11:03 I'm curious to know, because I am a beginner, what are you using lisp for? what circumstances does lisp really shine in? 02:11:18 Out of date? Nope, actually, the language (Common Lisp) is stable, since it has been standardized. 02:11:26 A good CL introductory book also is An Introduction To Symbolic Computation if I remember, that'd be simpler than PCL for non-programmers 02:12:04 johnarmstrong: i use lisp to write graphics programs, programs to extract data from large files, web programs, system administration programs, and things like that. 02:12:21 Heh, "things like that" 02:12:28 Just that doing 2012 stuff less out of the box. 02:12:46 johnarmstrong: it's a general purpose programming language. most people argue lisp's merits over other languages in terms of its general way of doing things. 02:12:54 But quicklisp came... 02:12:57 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:13:31 What's scheme good for? Quicklisp? 02:13:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:48 Scheme is another Lisp dialect. 02:13:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:53 most languages are good for most things 02:14:10 dlowe: indeed... 02:14:21 Quicklisp is a program for fetching & using CL libraries 02:14:31 I think it's used more in universities so maybe it's more for educational purposes 02:14:44 ANewLisper: a thing I like about lisp is that it can both be very low level and very high level 02:14:45 I'm using scheme to extend my irc client :p 02:15:46 You can use any language you see it fit. 02:16:54 Oh ok thank you everyone I will pursue Learning CL with that PCL book :) 02:17:36 it's an excellent book. 02:17:56 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:18:00 ANewLisper: you also have lots of choice of CL implementations. 02:19:02 What do you mean by implementations? (scheme and such?) 02:19:45 ANewLisper: there are multiple Common Lisp development environments from mostly independent sources. 02:20:00 CL implementations: clisp, sbcl, abcl, cmucl, LispWorks, Allegro, ... 02:20:14 beirc is a considerably heavier package than I thought it'd be 02:21:27 What are those gko? 02:21:50 And what is emacs lisp? 02:21:53 The most impressive use for Common Lisp I've had so far was to write a small CommonQT DSL and write a 3 line program that achieved what we do in class with a couple of C++ files and an equal amount of header files using MFC :) So lisp can be used to embarrass your professors very effectively. 02:21:56 ANewLisper: Common Lisp implementation. I think PCL is with clisp. 02:22:52 ANewLisper: if you learn CL, you'll be in good position to learn Emacs Lisp. 02:23:31 emacs lisp is neither common lisp nor scheme, but an emacs-specific lisp dialect 02:23:52 Oh 02:23:54 pavelpenev: interesting... 02:24:02 But what are emacs? 02:24:11 an OS err, an editor 02:25:16 And do you need to be a genius to use CL? I mean writing a 3 line CL program that does a couple files work in C++ 02:25:37 ANewLisper: If you knew me in real life you'd know I'm an idiot 02:25:51 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:26:01 I failed that exam because I can't code C++ for shit 02:26:05 pavelpenev: is lisp used outside of academia? it seems like a very elegant language, but i hear recursion is frowned upon in the application development... is this true? 02:27:01 johnarmstrong: I use imperative loops daily, and recursion only once in a while. 02:27:06 some imeplementations do support tail recursion but it's not mandated by the standard, so others don't... unlike for scheme, where it's standard 02:27:19 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:47 Oh ok thanks everyone for your help I have to get going now I'll be back when I start my common lisp days :) 02:27:56 of course there are problems for which recursion is still an ideal method, it'll just use stack space as needed 02:27:58 Are there any "serious" common lisp implementations that don't support tail calls even though they don't have to? 02:28:18 -!- ANewLisper [b89114f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.145.20.241] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:29:38 johnarmstrong: Yes it is used. I've used Scheme and CL professionnally. 02:29:41 but as pavelpenev mentioned there's also the powerful loop facility, which is quite nice 02:30:04 -!- Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas1-cooksville17-1279271918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:30:26 And also, I heared that, in application development, people frown upon what they don't understand. I guess that the problem is not recursion itself 02:30:27 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:31:01 Axioplase: If you work in a place where people don't understand recursion, get a better job :) 02:31:03 Axioplase: that's true also... 02:31:32 Axioplase: preferably where a CS degree is required in order to program computers. 02:31:51 s/degree/education 02:32:02 Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas1-cooksville17-1279271611.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:32:22 well CS degrees are on the up and up, so maybe more recursive programming skills will soon enter the workforce? 02:33:05 Otoh, less qualified people means more money for me. I'm happy with that :P 02:33:09 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:34:17 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:33 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 02:36:26 alright people thanks for the chat. over and out... 02:36:34 -!- johnarmstrong [~johnarmst@64.228.159.83] has left #lisp 02:37:52 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-192-226.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 02:39:03 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 02:40:02 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:12 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:10 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:24 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 02:46:24 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 02:46:24 lobo_d_b 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easier to start with that ruby, python, etc. Lisp the ecosystem... not so 05:26:26 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:27:22 looking for speakers at BLM 05:27:45 I believe next meeting will be a lightning talk a palooza 05:30:34 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has joined #lisp 05:31:20 endoalir [~endoalir@host-184-166-228-203.bln-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:22 -!- PissedNu1lock [~resteven@134.184.49.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:17 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 05:34:08 -!- xscc [~xscc@123.52.87.227] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:35:13 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:36:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:38:18 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:43:25 gravicappa 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has joined #lisp 05:58:52 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:59:07 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:04:50 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:05:15 cthuluh [jca@chomsky.autogeree.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:33 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:05:52 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 06:11:15 Fare: is it so bad, with quicklisp and etc? 06:12:12 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-uqzcjubiuxypdmui] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:14:10 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:17:29 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:23:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-emifrpyrxcuhnaiv] has joined #lisp 06:27:23 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has joined #lisp 06:45:40 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:46:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: night] 06:50:00 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 06:52:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:53:18 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:56:34 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:58:22 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:45 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:58:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:58:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:59:17 SecretFire [~SecretFir@67-5-147-1.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:22 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:39 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:02:02 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:03:31 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:04:59 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:04:59 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:05:44 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:05:59 -!- dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 07:06:36 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:57 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:07:59 Ralith, it's much less bad than used to be. But still nothing like perl, python, ruby. 07:09:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:13:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:14:30 -!- LecheSammich is now known as Chupavergas 07:14:36 sengir [3e28ae9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.40.174.157] has joined #lisp 07:17:25 -!- sengir [3e28ae9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.40.174.157] has quit [Client Quit] 07:19:08 anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 07:23:15 Scheme is like Esperanto: it's useful to learn, because it's simple and it will let you learn the other languages more easily. 07:35:28 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has joined #lisp 07:38:42 ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has joined #lisp 07:41:48 You could make the same claim for javascript, and have the added bonus of people actually speaking it. 07:46:41 Fare: my experience with cpan and gems have been much less pleasant than with quicklisp recently 07:48:28 I'll second that ... quicklisp "just works", gems not so much. CPAN did work for me in the past, too. 07:49:21 -!- cthuluh [jca@chomsky.autogeree.net] has quit [Quit: gni] 07:49:36 bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-166.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:43 there are some ways to make gems less unpleasant, but I prefer quicklisp, too (: 07:51:03 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 07:51:20 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 07:53:32 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:07 How about those in the audience a little less experienced than antifuchs -- does quicklisp work nicely for you? 08:00:05 chr: it's great! 08:00:43 chr: no matter how much or little experience you have, quicklisp just 'does what needs to be done' 08:01:18 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-166.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:06:16 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-136-226.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:07:11 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.40.67] has joined #lisp 08:09:09 lifeng [~lifeng@bb219-74-136-226.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 08:13:48 dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has joined #lisp 08:14:07 bege [~bege@91.146.168.88] has joined #lisp 08:16:34 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:17:48 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.40.67] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 08:18:43 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nvmnyntmdgvowcdf] has joined #lisp 08:19:54 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:20:27 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 08:22:21 Guest32731 [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 08:24:25 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:24:26 shifty [~user@114-198-45-220.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:30:13 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:30:59 yup. QL works perfectly for me as well. 08:31:01 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-76-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:38:39 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.137.198] has quit [Quit: ] 08:39:15 jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has joined #lisp 08:39:15 -!- Chupavergas [~prolapsep@200.79.151.200.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:42:42 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.59.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:44:00 dtw [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe86fb00-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:44:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:44:44 -!- dtw [~dtw@dsl-roibrasgw1-fe86fb00-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Changing host] 08:44:44 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 08:46:12 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 08:46:33 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has joined #lisp 08:47:04 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has quit [Client Quit] 08:48:13 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:48:51 fsmunoz [fsmunoz@nat/ibm/x-ixmnfcgvpbuimuwc] has joined #lisp 08:51:22 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:52:34 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:52:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:53:14 -!- fsmunoz [fsmunoz@nat/ibm/x-ixmnfcgvpbuimuwc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:19 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has joined #lisp 08:54:45 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:57:15 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:01 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:00:12 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 09:00:27 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 09:05:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:06:49 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:07:06 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 09:07:27 asvil [~asvil@178.120.1.24] has joined #lisp 09:08:37 sytse: lisp is not prohibited by the bible: lisp was used by God to program the universe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OjTPj7K54 http://xkcd.com/224/ 09:09:19 sykopomp: first and car don't live at the same abstraction level. 09:09:29 s/sykopomp/sytse/ 09:10:06 sytse: cons/car/cdr/null are to manipulate cons cells. With cons cells you can make any higher level data structures: trees, arrays, hash-tables, lists, structures, etc. 09:10:13 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 09:10:23 sytse: list*/first/rest/endp are to manipulate lists. 09:10:38 With lists too you can make higher level data structures, but lists are higher level than cons cells. 09:11:06 cons cells are the smallest data structure possible: two slots. That's why they're fundamental. 09:12:29 rjj [~randall@108-80-22-5.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:22 -!- dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has quit [Quit: dsabanin] 09:20:15 Boxes are smaller. 09:20:22 They have one slot. 09:29:00 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:29:55 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-16-175.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:16 Zhivago: well, yes, but they're not practical: you can only use them to count in base-1, and then encoded higher level structures in integers represented in base-1. It sounds even dumber than Turing Machines. 09:37:35 Quicklisp makes it very easy to do CL stuff I think, along with Quickproject and this article: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 09:38:30 that's mostly for development though, I don't know how to manage deployment, and for example I'm yet to think about the need to package stuff at the OS level rather than in $HOME for the user 09:39:50 dim: application delivery is another thing. quicklisp is to distribute libraries. 09:40:33 dim: where do you have a computer shared amongst developers who must use the same libraries? 09:40:39 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has joined #lisp 09:40:48 the problems I had when starting CL were mainly finding an implementation to work with (CCL is pretty good), understanding systems and packages and finding quicklisp 09:41:10 pjb: integration platforms 09:41:38 Integration is still done by a single user. 09:41:49 you know, that strange stage where you want the team to check that what they did each in they own corner is going to actually work together 09:41:53 dim: i use buildapp, it produces standalone executables for sbcl applications that can be deployed system wide. 09:42:14 dim: oh, wait, i told you that i think :) 09:42:19 H4ns: I have to look at that, and I want to target linux/mac/win executables 09:42:35 that's the reason that drove me using CCL 09:42:46 dim: so in that strange state, do you still do things in each different user account, with different environments? 09:42:52 dim: a buildapp port to ccl would be nice. 09:43:04 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:43:07 pjb: that would be more like a single user, the application user maybe 09:43:48 then the problem is if you want to run several applications in production on the same server, as usual, either you have private libs and it's a chore to upgrade them all, or you have shared libs and it's a chore to upgrade them all 09:44:30 dim: lisp applications don't use lisp libraries, even less shared lisp libraries, in general. 09:45:06 dim: I'm sorry, I've been too implicit: quicklisp is to distribute the SOURCES of libraries. 09:45:09 pjb: how do you call the thing you get installed once you did (ql:quickload "foo")? 09:45:19 dim: in the current ecosystem, there's no place for binary libraries. 09:45:29 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:46:02 The main reason begin that fasl file formats are not only implementation specific, but even version specific, and since people are so "maintained"-hungry, new versions of implementations can come out up to every month! 09:46:23 dim: I call it "cached": it's stored in ~/.cache/common-lisp/. 09:46:38 It's not a distribution mechanism, it's a speed optimization. 09:47:10 dim: now, there's one defacto standard binary library file format: ELF. 09:47:46 When CL implementations will be able to produce and load ELF libraries, you will be able to consider distributing and reusing CL shared libraries with CL programs. 09:49:18 They can. See ECLS. 09:49:39 dim: given that no implementation (apart perhaps ECL, but I wouldn't know how to do it) is able to generate an ELF library containing compiled lisp code, I'd say you have an opportunity here, to write a CL compiler (usable in any CL implementation) that would take a set of definitions (eg. an asdf system), compile it and generate a .so, and they use a null-FFI CFFI module to load it and run it. 09:49:45 Zhivago: that's what I said! 09:50:17 Zhivago: ok, you received it 20s later :-) Sorry. 09:51:17 A lot of these value points have shifted radically in the last few years. 09:51:37 You might even be better off getting rid of fasls completely. 09:52:40 Now actually, I'm trying to make it sound like it would be easy, but it wouldn't: the different CL compilers in the different implementations, even if you consider only native compilers, generate code to directly access memory given a known memory layout. They even heavily optimize that. If you want to write a compiler that generate code in reusable shared libraries, you will have to go thru indirections to access cons cells, arrays, 09:52:40 symbols, global variables, etc. 09:53:18 Zhivago: I agree. I'm only considering source distribution nowadays. 09:53:34 defektz [~simon@unaffiliated/soat] has joined #lisp 09:54:12 that's what I meant, source distribution is all we need, it's still shared lib in a way: when you upgrade the sources, do you want to target all application that need those or have a private copy per application? 09:54:39 So basically when loading a lisp ELF library, you would have to do a reverse linkage: the library would have to link to a lower layer API inside the current implementation. The outer linkage would be provided by the binding and fbinding of symbols. 09:55:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:55:13 dim: but applications are not deployed as sources, because it would be too slow to reload and recompile everything from sources when you launch an application (unless it's a small script). 09:55:27 You could store source code in an elf file. 09:55:41 Too, but I excluded that from my discussion. 09:55:48 dim: hence the various application deployment mechanisms, but they don't involve ELF libraries. 09:55:51 pjb: Actually, that's one of the value points that has shifted radically. 09:56:48 Tracing systems like V8 do very well in such a scenario. 09:57:29 Now, this idea of compiling into a ELF library that could be loaded into any CL implementation is not silly, since it would indeed allow to compile shareable CL libraries that could be installed system-wide. The penalty would be this indirection for the lower layer access. 09:58:17 It is silly, unless you can persuade them to all share the same run-time. 09:58:21 Which is what C does. 09:58:32 Zhivago: the run-time is already shared: it's the CL package. 09:58:56 antonv [4f8f68fb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.143.104.251] has joined #lisp 09:58:57 No. That's not the run-time. The run-time it stuff like the GC and layouts. 09:59:10 C systems get away with it because they all share the same runtime for things like malloc/free, etc. 09:59:15 the GC and memory layout have an API: the CL package. 09:59:31 For example, to access acosn cell, I can use CL:CAR, CL:CDR, CL:RPLACA and CL:RPLACD. 09:59:36 API isn't sufficient. 10:00:02 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:08 I'm starting to find it's a good idea. :-) 10:00:31 Are there any Scheme interpreters that are more friendly to newcomers than mit-scheme? 10:00:43 rjj: ask on #scheme. 10:00:52 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.1.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:01:00 Here I would advise yo Pseudo-Scheme, which is a r4rs implemented in Common Lisp, which is on topic. 10:01:10 rjj: #scheme would know. 10:01:13 I though that the lisp way is not to start your application very often but instead have an image running and sending jobs or whatnot, or just have some frontend that connect to it 10:01:19 Thanks, #lisp. 10:01:24 IOW, long lived programs, aka daemons in the unix land 10:01:35 in that case, why do you care much about the startup time? 10:01:37 kdas_ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-uwxhoubnhhyoenlk] has joined #lisp 10:01:42 dim: there are different deployment mechanisms for different circumstances. 10:01:43 (same point with Emacs really) 10:02:08 dim: eg. you can just put #!/usr/bin/clisp -q -ansi on the first line of your source file, chmod +x and ./your-script 10:02:17 rjj: racket-lang I'd venture, but I don't know 10:02:40 or you can have emacs-like programs or daemons, or commands compiled to binary like ls using save-image, etc. 10:02:42 pjb: yes, but it does not look usual in the lisp world, or is it? 10:02:51 rjj: I'd advise bigloo, it works well on my system. 10:02:59 dim: it does. 10:03:05 dim: it's just a deployment question. 10:03:20 -!- antonv [4f8f68fb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.143.104.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:03:24 I'm repeating the word deployment because it's the key word 10:03:34 that is, you should search deployment on cliki.net! http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=deployment 10:04:40 And unfortunately, cliki.net needs more work on this topic :-( 10:05:12 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:50 kdas__ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-hsgkbntonswgnqsr] has joined #lisp 10:06:51 pjb: what about http://www.thinlisp.org/ ? 10:08:11 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 10:08:35 humm, most recent release in 2001-10-13 10:09:43 -!- kdas_ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-uwxhoubnhhyoenlk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:10:06 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 10:10:07 $ time ecl -norc -eval '(quit)' gives me "real 0m0.153s" 10:10:49 so any binary from ecl should work fine, even perl isn't that much faster: 10:10:56 $ time perl -e '' => "real 0m0.066s" 10:12:28 flip214: you're likely measuring your hard drive's performance here. 10:12:46 pkhuong: on another try (cache-hot) ecl is at 0.133 sec 10:13:06 oh, and perl drops to 0.005sec ;/ 10:13:37 time paktahn -h : 0.073s real 10:13:42 but it's way ahead of perl6: $ time perl6 -e '' => "real 0m1.804s" 10:14:32 hmmm, "$ time sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(quit)'" => "real 0m0.014s" cache-hot 10:14:46 paktahn is an arch linux package manager, that timing is cache hot on a netbook, compiled with ccl 10:15:44 -!- bege [~bege@91.146.168.88] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:17:53 paktahn is written in cl? 10:18:46 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 10:19:31 Yes. It may be the only CL app I use in the start/exit for each use style. It should be an example of distribution too -- it's available in the AUR, although I may have compiled from source manually 10:23:16 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:24:30 flip214: Does evaluating nothing actually give you any sort of useful statistics? 10:25:26 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:28:33 Odin-: it tells you how much the runtime needs to initialize itself before running any user code. 10:30:06 Blkt [~user@82.84.189.92] has joined #lisp 10:31:11 H4ns: Well, fair enough, but taking perl as an example, I'd suspect telling that to run the empty string takes a number of shortcuts. 10:31:11 fe[nl]ix: ping 10:31:14 fe[nl]ix: urgent ping 10:31:20 Odin-: why? 10:31:37 H4ns: 'cause the people who work on perl's internals are insane. 10:32:14 Odin-: well, if you believe that strongly enough, repeat the measurement with, say, a print to /dev/null. 10:32:25 Fair enough. 10:32:30 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129021136.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:32:34 *Odin-* shrugs. 10:33:16 Anything that's non-trivial is going to be impacted more by the user code than the interpreter unless something's really wrong. 10:33:54 it can't be that bad, because SBCL doesn't optimise for that case, and the only difference here is ~4 ms (that's pretty much the time spent waiting for the OS, while perl doesn't do anything) 10:34:10 Odin-: i think the discussion revolved more around the question whether cl runtimes start up fast enough to make them viable as a runtime for command line tools 10:36:01 They should be, I'd think. 10:36:40 Although I generally think the REPL would be useful as a command line. 8) 10:41:16 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.103] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 10:42:04 -!- gko [~user@59-120-37-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:42:14 -!- kdas__ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-hsgkbntonswgnqsr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:42:22 kdas__ [kdas@nat/redhat/x-chufrtvvwvzzyseg] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:06 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:47:35 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:51:45 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:02 dim: I don't know much of non Common Lisps. My first reflex when I see a non-CL lisp, would be to implement it in CL 10:52:09 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-199-45.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:52:30 dim: yes: what's the point? So that's my reaction to non-CL lisps. 10:53:26 jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:53:26 dim: but then, indeed, people concerned with more unix integration, like shared libraries, tend to write their own mini-lisp instead of writing or adapting a CL implementation. They often feel that a CL implementation would be harder to write. 10:53:58 dim: actually, the CL standard allows for subset of the CL language, so they don't have really any excuse not to do just that, a implementation of a subset of CL. 10:55:53 You could easily patch an implementation to provide a REPL, and/or interpret the first command line or REPL expression specially, lazily loading the rest of the system if that first expression is not (quit). 10:56:09 After all, why take the pain of loading an application if the first thing to be done is to quit? 10:56:40 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:52 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:28 int main(int argc,char** argv){ if((1 that should compile to a single page program that will beat all benchmark. 10:58:07 xscc [~xscc@123.52.87.227] has joined #lisp 10:58:41 pjb: thinlisp is linked from cliki.net I didn't realise it was not a CL 10:58:56 ccl:save-application might be all I need when I want to ship binaries 10:59:16 Sorry, I thought of picolisp. ThinLisp is a CL, yes. 11:00:05 ah ok 11:00:35 dim: yes, cl-launch wrap the various save image provided by the implementations. 11:02:04 pnq [~nick@AC815738.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:03:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:04:47 ok I crash CCL when using ccl:save-application 11:11:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 11:12:07 -!- defektz [~simon@unaffiliated/soat] has quit [Quit: bblbblbblbblblblblblblblblb] 11:12:35 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has joined #lisp 11:13:36 ./buildapp --load-system sudoku --eval '(defun main (argv) (declare (ignore argv)) (time (sudoku:solve-example-grids)))' --entry main --output sudoku 11:13:38 works well 11:14:52 Evaluation took: 0.427 seconds of real time, real 0m0.480s 11:15:20 that's 0.053s of setup, it would seem, for a 28MB binary 11:15:24 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:33 is there a clean way to have a much smaller binary footprint? 11:15:48 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:16:20 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Client Quit] 11:16:42 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Client Quit] 11:16:59 a compressed core will shrink it at the cost of startup time 11:18:00 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:19:23 dim: (ccl::build-application :name "MyApp" :directory #P"~/Desktop/" :copy-ide-resources t) 11:19:23 ) 11:19:55 -!- xscc [~xscc@123.52.87.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:57 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-emifrpyrxcuhnaiv] has quit [Changing host] 11:19:57 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:24:38 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:24:50 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:24:52 xscc [~xscc@113.200.85.207] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-199-45.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 11:24:59 -!- kdas__ is now known as kushal 11:25:11 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-chufrtvvwvzzyseg] has quit [Changing host] 11:25:11 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:25:20 Undefined function: CCL::BUILD-APPLICATION 11:25:39 -!- xscc [~xscc@113.200.85.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:26:02 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 11:27:51 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0313.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 11:28:44 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:35 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 11:29:35 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 11:29:35 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 11:30:14 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:35 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 11:30:37 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:31:17 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:04 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 11:35:30 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:55 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:38:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.138] has joined #lisp 11:38:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.77.138] has quit [Changing host] 11:38:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:39:11 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:21 dim: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter5.6.html#application-builder 11:40:05 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 11:40:30 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 11:41:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:41:58 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@80.203.136.124] has joined #lisp 11:43:08 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:43:31 Reader error on #, near position 797, within "ng (s) (#/autoreleas": 11:43:32 ahah 11:43:38 that's not for today :) 11:43:55 buildapp is cool by the way, easy standalone SBCL binary 11:44:16 the only problem is the size of the beast, and questions about building a .exe for windows 11:44:34 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:45:57 dim: what questions? 11:46:01 it works fine 11:46:03 worried about dialup users? 11:47:22 Xach: can I build a windows .exe from sbcl? 11:47:25 ok cool 11:47:35 will have to try later... cross build possible? 11:47:54 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:04 dim: ccl:save-application works fine for me on osx 11:49:41 jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:02 no luck for me 11:54:10 what's the issue? 11:54:18 that reader error 11:54:29 svn update? 11:54:31 started from the shell? 11:57:09 from slime 11:57:16 don't do that ever 11:57:29 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 11:57:32 you want to create your applications from the shell, with nothing running. 11:57:47 well sbcl outperforms ccl so I would rather build sbcl executables in fact, thinking about it, and if sbcl knows how to do that for linux+mac+windows I'm all set 11:57:49 (nothing running in the lisp image that you're saving from) 11:57:59 so, buildapp :) 11:58:09 same advice holds for sbcl. don't dump from slime. 11:58:20 using buildapp from the command line 11:58:23 yep. 11:58:40 ../buildapp --load-system sudoku --eval '(defun main (argv) (declare (ignore argv)) (time (sudoku:solve-example-grids)))' --entry main --output sudoku 11:58:43 that's very fine 11:58:59 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:59:24 the (time ...) is to be able to compare with OS level time ./sudoku to assess the startup cost, see recent backlog :) 12:00:00 can I build a windows executable from a mac host? 12:00:14 no 12:00:35 was my guess, as it's dumping the running image IIUC 12:00:39 dim: guess so, when using a windows VM 12:01:03 flip214: that means from windows for me, but yes 12:02:02 jokar [~mohsen@188.75.84.162] has joined #lisp 12:03:12 dim: you can, with a virtual machine. 12:03:25 *pjb* is slow. 12:03:46 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:05:06 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06:05 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:10:16 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:10:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:10:50 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-111-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:11:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC815738.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:11:49 -!- jokar [~mohsen@188.75.84.162] has left #lisp 12:11:55 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-141-39.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:15:49 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:16:49 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nvmnyntmdgvowcdf] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:18:24 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:19:22 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0313.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:20:02 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Quit: le mieux que je peux] 12:20:30 -!- dekuked [~dekuked@c-75-68-165-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:22:31 wine may work 12:24:51 A lot of people eventually give up and reach the same conclusion. 12:26:12 wine is worth a try, which is probably less expensive than buying a Microsoft Windows 7 license and a computer to run it. 12:26:33 (it'd be $700 at least, so you can easily spend a couple of days on wine). 12:27:38 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:29:35 just use VirtualBox rather than buying a computer 12:30:03 and well, it could be that you have a friend with a licence that will allow you remote access to build your .exe 12:31:14 doesn't sf or some other OSS hosting site have a windows VM to ssh (or rdp, or whatever else) into? 12:31:36 dim: that's what botnet owners have: lots of friends with MS-Windows licenses :-) 12:31:45 hehe 12:34:03 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-181.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:06 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-130.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:40:10 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:41:57 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:46:18 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:49:08 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:49:20 -!- mtd_ is now known as mtd 12:50:08 abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 12:51:58 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 12:54:42 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:56:46 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:00 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:36 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:03:35 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.216.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:10 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #lisp 13:05:00 ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:07 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:09 kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 13:15:46 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:58 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 13:16:58 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 13:16:58 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 13:21:23 jokar [~mohsen@188.75.84.162] has joined #lisp 13:21:35 *jokar* hello all 13:21:46 lisp is good or haskell? 13:21:50 they're both good. 13:22:09 jokar: in this channel, common lisp is discussed 13:22:18 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:22:23 is lisp today used? 13:22:27 haskell is good for investigating category theory and non-mutability issues. Common Lisp is good for writing programs. 13:22:36 jokar: of course. 13:22:56 jokar: we're mostly discussing what we do today and how we'll rule the world eventually. 13:23:02 H4ns: can i send pm? 13:23:23 jokar: why? 13:23:37 i have some question that i can't ask them in channel like haskell 13:23:49 jokar: you can ask lisp related question in the channel. 13:23:55 jokar: i cannot discuss haskell. 13:24:07 why you use lisp? 13:24:16 what is good for? 13:24:27 jokar: you write programs in it 13:24:30 that's pretty good 13:24:44 why you not use C or C++ 13:25:01 is lisp hard? 13:25:13 jokar: http://www.lurklurk.org/cpp_clos.html 13:25:32 is lisp compiler? 13:25:34 jokar: can you use some google to find out about lisp and then ask specific questions, please? 13:25:41 can it make exe file? 13:25:54 jokar: yes. yes. yes. 13:25:56 ok 13:26:21 my main question is why a user must use lisp and why it is live 13:27:16 jokar: http://nostoc.stanford.edu/Docs/whylisp.html 13:33:36 -!- jokar [~mohsen@188.75.84.162] has left #lisp 13:37:14 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:07 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:38:13 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:33 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:51 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:28 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:48:43 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:01 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:39 *maxm* wonders if there is an xkcd graph joke with "years in IT" and "% of noobs you mistake for trolls" as axis 13:53:20 maxm: ah, you're a noob!? :D 13:55:19 "imagine yourself a noob" is a valid brainstorming technique, ie step back for a second and ask "wtf are we trying to accomplish, wtf we need it for, can it be done other way" 13:55:25 *maxm* does not have to imagine tho :-) 13:55:33 -!- ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:07 Just remember that you are stupid. 13:58:20 Smart people often forget that. 13:59:51 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:48 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:07:25 rrice [~ralph@adsl-69-208-0-143.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:36 -!- rrice [~ralph@adsl-69-208-0-143.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 14:08:47 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-188-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:58 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:02 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:11:58 dekuked [~dekuked@c-24-62-3-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:02 join #django 14:13:29 you naughty boy 14:13:50 sorry :( 14:14:00 :D 14:14:25 lol 14:15:49 this is interesting, and relevant inasmuch as the program in question was written in lisp: http://www.crackingagrippa.net/ 14:15:57 zeroSignal [~odb@194-166-217-80.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:16:40 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 14:16:42 my main question is: why for lisp is alive? 14:16:43 :D 14:16:46 kidding! 14:25:41 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:28:09 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:29:14 What lisp systems ran on Macintosh system 7? 14:29:20 m68k 14:30:13 Fade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Common_Lisp 14:30:31 ah, thanks. I wasn't sure what to google for. :) 14:30:49 i tried "macintosh common lisp" 14:30:53 :D 14:31:55 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-144-35.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:32:04 MCL is what we now call CCL, having been OpenMCL in between, right? 14:33:05 dim: ack 14:36:08 Blkt` [~Blkt@82.84.189.92] has joined #lisp 14:37:28 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.189.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:41:53 dim: yes. 14:42:00 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-237.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 dim: the sources are available. 14:42:23 http://code.google.com/p/mcl/ 14:46:18 -!- dekuked [~dekuked@c-24-62-3-24.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:46:51 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 Fade, experlisp 14:47:17 (if you can find it anywhere). 14:47:23 i could be wrong. 14:47:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-144-35.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:53 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 14:48:39 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:42 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:49:02 jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:49 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:53 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:28 LeLisp ran on MacII too. 15:03:47 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-166-139.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:27 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 15:10:35 LoLisp would be a lisp for the 2010s 15:11:45 http://code.google.com/p/mcl/source/browse/LICENSE LGPL 15:11:57 and HiLisp would be the one for the Highlander! 15:11:59 it's free software, it's not just "source included" 15:12:00 lol 15:14:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.23] has joined #lisp 15:14:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.23] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:16:02 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:18:15 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:20 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:40 ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31:54 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:32:11 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:03 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:35:39 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-122-6.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-242-169.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:42 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:37:47 mrm [~user@92.50.188.118] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host113-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:36 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:50 ykm [~ykm@182.237.182.12] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 pjb: good point. I forgot about that comic :) 15:42:13 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:45:15 -!- ykm [~ykm@182.237.182.12] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:32 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:46:04 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 15:47:13 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:47:47 Is there a comprehensive list somewhere of the different data storage/access API's available for CL? I really can't decide on which model to use for my application, and I need to experiment with the various options. 15:48:26 loke: http://cliki.net/database 15:48:35 Thganks 15:48:58 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:49:18 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49:29 would be nice if we actually had a page where these could be rated/commented. Having a flat list just seems like line noise. 15:49:55 I need to be able to store serialised CLOS object graphs, some of which are quite large. I don't have a particular need to update them, as loading/delete/store is good enough for this purpose 15:50:10 It does need to be quite fast though 15:50:10 Yeah, if only someone could edit that page, people with a complaint could fix it 15:50:29 dlowe: unfortunately, it's not something one person can simply do. 15:50:45 One does not simple EDIT a wiki page on Mordor. 15:50:52 unless you want my expert opinion on all the CL database technology, and no one else's. 15:51:18 sykopomp: I imagine if you put a space in there saying "fill me in" it would happen 15:51:31 maybe not, though. I've been baffled at the unreadiness of people to edit wiki pages 15:52:07 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 15:54:01 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 15:56:44 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:58:48 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-166-139.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:59:05 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:59:37 pjb: good point. I forgot about that comic :) 15:59:40 pjb: I fail to see how you can make arrays with cons cells though. :P 15:59:51 Posterdati [~tapioca@host113-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 pnq [~nick@ACA24F2E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:35 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 if you wanted to have remove lisp systems talk together, what would you use? is swank protocol suitable? 16:01:52 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:02:03 dim: ZeroMq? 16:02:09 I would use a queue like zmq or rabbitmq 16:02:59 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:03:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 mmm, mailbox style message passing? 16:04:08 yes 16:04:13 I like PGQ (PostgreSQL based) for queueing 16:04:19 not the same latency tho 16:04:31 anything RPC like? 16:04:46 Enough kidding around. Do it like real men. 16:04:48 SMTP. 16:05:11 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@80.203.136.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:05:40 I think you mean UUCP. 16:05:51 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-244-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:08 Oh yes 16:06:23 How could I forget 16:06:29 It's either that 16:06:30 Or Kermit 16:07:24 The lack of a CL-UUCP package is disturbing 16:08:55 jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:14 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:11:59 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:02 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:06 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:13:32 r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.38.134] has joined #lisp 16:15:27 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:27 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:16:37 nitro_idiot_ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-23-2.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:19:13 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 16:19:26 hmmmm, i ask myself if i should not put all my customizations out of mcclim and into my .sbclrc rather.... 16:19:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:48 using methods..... 16:19:52 dl [~download@dhcp154.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:47 would be cleaner anyway, and i wouldn't have to dare to copy-back my backups of some files into the directory on each update..... 16:22:47 gst_ [~gst@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:28 nitro_idiot__ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-48-58.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:28:19 NooBlack 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[~monx@ool-18bab6ce.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:35 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.137] has joined #lisp 17:12:30 -!- ice [~ice@123.114.34.82] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:33 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 17:13:54 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:14:24 -!- rjj [~randall@108-80-22-5.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:15:40 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:16:03 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:26 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24F2E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:22:00 sytse: (defun make-array (size) (make-list size)) (defun aref (a index) (elt a index)) etc. 17:22:49 sytse: now, O(1) can be achieved by adding a calibrated loop so that access time to all arrays up to array-total-size-limit is the same time. 17:23:33 But even with "real" arrays, you have differences in access times, due to the various caches (VM, RAM, L2, L1). 17:23:45 so perhaps you should not insist on O(1). 17:24:30 yes 17:24:33 'real' arrays 17:24:48 are still amortized O(1) if you want to be brutally honest and deep ;-) 17:25:05 well 17:25:06 no 17:25:11 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:13 loke: don't decide already! Have a look at: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/cesarum/dictionary.lisp#line259 17:25:14 high access time is still O(1) 17:25:20 just a higher constant 17:25:26 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:25:35 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:38 sytse: with conses you can implement various schemes so that real access times are short enough. 17:25:39 I'm talking shit again.. 17:25:54 pjb: yes. But you don't, because it's silly 17:25:56 ;-) 17:26:52 I can do the same with a paper book 17:27:08 Depends on your "hardware", ie. on your lower leve. On a Von Neuman machine, yes it's silly. On a Turing Machine it would not. On lambda calculus, you can implement arrays as functions, but you have to implement predefined array sizes, unless you go metalinguistic (which doesn't change the fundamental problem). 17:30:32 rjj [~randall@108-80-22-5.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:34:57 pjb: my hardware is two hands and one pair of eyes 17:37:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41:26 lispm [~lispm@d177140.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:28 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:43:35 Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas1-cooksville17-1279544933.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:44:50 I was going through the cliki utilities page(btw WTF), and noticed that all the functions from split-sequence are also in cl-utilities. Are they the same code, or are they independently maintained? Quicklisp has both, so which one should I use? 17:47:10 I'd say go with split-sequence 17:47:20 (that's what I tend to do) (: 17:47:28 who maintains cl-utilities? 17:47:44 ah, heh, may 2005 17:48:40 seems to be a pre-alexandria project 17:49:12 ok 17:49:28 so yeah, split-sequence for all your sequence splitting needs 17:50:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:50:32 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 17:50:55 I'm trying to get a feeling the universe of common lisp utility libraries :) 17:52:16 there are very few worthwhile ones (-; 17:52:42 I can recommend split-sequence and alexandria. 17:52:57 Those I know about 17:53:07 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:53:14 there are 20 more :) 17:53:28 yeah 17:53:40 anything else is a code sme^W^W^Wpersonal preference (; 17:55:13 I've been using bordeaux-threads, iolib, yacc, cl-lex, cl-ppcre, lparallel, postmodern, babel, alexandria, hunchentoot --- all those are pretty cool IMO 17:55:25 by that I mean I think they are really worthwhile 17:55:38 yeah, they're good 17:56:49 from what I understand, pavelpenev is mostly interested in utility libs though all the ones you listed have a real purpose (: 17:56:57 I'm talking about this page: http://www.cliki.net/utilities 17:57:02 yeah 17:57:49 I love how everyone seems to have made their own (; 17:57:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.69.61] has joined #lisp 17:58:17 its like monad tutorials for haskellers :) 17:58:40 hahaha 17:58:49 "first, we fix the absence of defclass*" 18:00:30 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-166-139.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:01:43 dada_cetacean [~dada_ceta@unaffiliated/dada-cetacean/x-8298717] has joined #lisp 18:01:58 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:02:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-165.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:03 sabalaba [~Adium@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 dim: if you notice some aspect of iolib that needs improvement, don't hesitate to let me know 18:03:34 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 18:03:43 apart from the documentation :) 18:06:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:52 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-219-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:07:58 fe[nl]ix: oops, actually that's the one I didn't use myself, yet, sorry 18:08:08 might come in handy in my next project, so thta's on my list 18:08:45 I tested it for DNS resolution, but it turned out I didn't need to use it 18:11:21 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #lisp 18:13:08 snearch [~snearch@f053002096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:07 Is anyone here good with Mathematica? 18:15:52 nope, just CL. 18:22:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:25:37 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-030-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:12 tensorpudding [~michael@99.102.70.73] has joined #lisp 18:32:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:11 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.13.244] has joined #lisp 18:34:44 pnq [~nick@ACA203CE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:07 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:16 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.163] has joined #lisp 18:41:08 bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-166.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.163] has quit [Changing host] 18:41:08 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:43:29 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@p4FEA4B81.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:04 -!- prip [~foo@95.233.14.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45:26 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 18:46:11 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:41 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bab6ce.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:52:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:53:23 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:18 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 18:57:07 prip [~foo@host80-120-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:02:27 *|3b|* wonders how well an option to specify which package (nick-)name to use when printing a symbol from a locally nicknamed package would work out 19:02:32 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:05:09 mck_ [8eb36adf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.179.106.223] has joined #lisp 19:06:44 -!- mck_ is now known as mck- 19:08:27 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:51 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 |3b|: you can use rename-package. 19:13:36 <|3b|> pjb: i could also not use rename-package :p 19:14:30 *|3b|* doesn't really think rename-package every time i wanted to READ or PRINT something is all that nice a solution anyway 19:16:16 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:18:20 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:50 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-188-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:23:55 |3b|: you can easily write a function that implements what you want calling rename-package. In any case, rename-package is tricky to use conformingly, so you better wrap it in functions doing the right thing for you anyways. See for example my add-nickname function. 19:25:06 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:26:12 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@p4FEA4B81.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:55 <|3b|> pjb: also, *package* is dynamically scoped, and rename-package isn't 19:28:28 I fail to see 1- how it's relevant 2- how it's different. 19:28:50 <|3b|> maybe i want to call READ from 2 threads? 19:29:09 Right, that doesn't cover threads. 19:29:21 (with-package-renamed () ) would have to thread-lock the package. 19:29:41 <|3b|> or maybe i just don't like renaming a package for a single read call, then renaming it back after READ finishes, then repeating it next time i want to READ something 19:29:51 nounch [~nounch@188-195-2-219-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:03 <|3b|> and i already have package-local-nicknames 19:30:08 AFAIK, rename-package is O(1). 19:30:44 I'm suggesting that, because the alternative is to patch CL, there's no conforming way to redefined WRITE to print symbols as you want. 19:30:47 *|3b|* isn't concerned about performance, it just sounds messy 19:31:01 I'm concerned with conformance. 19:31:20 *|3b|* is suggesting that since i'm already patching CL, i might as well improve the patch 19:31:32 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 19:31:34 Yes, in that case, I agree. 19:31:57 (setf (package-prefered-nickname :package-1) :p1) ? 19:32:09 You'd still have to use unwind-protect. 19:32:43 *|3b|* was thinking more a :print-as option when defining the local nickname 19:33:44 <|3b|> so whenever the package that defines the local nickname is current, symbols from the nicknamed package use that package name 19:33:46 That would still be a thread-global option for the package no? Or do you make the local nicknames thread-specific? 19:34:26 <|3b|> it is scoped to the package, binding *PACKAGE* is what lets it be thread local if i need that 19:36:25 |3b|: i'm late to the game but maybe hooking into the pretty printer? 19:36:48 |3b|: slime uses the shorter nickname. It uses its own printing functions. 19:36:58 shortest even. 19:38:02 <|3b|> pjb: yeah, not as worried about what slime does, this is specifically for PRINTing out stuff to be READ in a specific context later, with possible user editing in the middle (which is why i want a nice name instead of com.foo.bar.long.name:whatever 19:38:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:39:10 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:10 <|3b|> and in that context, i'd like a bunch of symbols in a particular package, but they would make using that package in normal programming context annoying (by cluttering symbol completion etc) 19:39:27 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 19:40:39 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 19:41:16 *|3b|* is messing with data normally in XML, with namespaced attributes, which would translate reasonably to package qualified symbols in something resembling xmls' sexp format 19:42:14 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-030-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:24 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:44:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA203CE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:45:04 |3b|: "22.2.1.4 Pretty Print Dispatch Tables 19:45:04 The information in this table takes precedence over all other mechanisms for specifying how to print objects." 19:45:04 19:45:29 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 19:45:42 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:50 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:41 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 19:48:41 <|3b|> mon_key: yeah, more interested in the implications of specifying how locally-nicknamed packages print, though, since that's one of the remaining issues with actually getting it into implementations 19:49:16 lxnch [lx@unaffiliated/lxnch] has joined #lisp 19:49:43 So your looking for a _portable_ solution :-( 19:50:11 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:14 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:50:19 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-219-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:10 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 19:56:09 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053002096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:58:03 ameoba [~sean@c-24-22-33-249.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:46 sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:37fe:67f0:5cbb:a08:be00:dc43] has joined #lisp 20:02:55 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:37fe:67f0:5cbb:a08:be00:dc43] has left #lisp 20:03:57 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-172-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:55 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:54 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-226-144.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:20 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129194149.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 20:15:30 e.g. (loop for (package . nicknames) in '((cl-lex lex) (cl-ppcre re) (lparallel lp) (lparallel.queue lq) (postmodern pg) (alexandria utils)) do (rename-package package package nicknames)) 20:16:17 -!- cYmen_ is now known as cYmen 20:16:43 I do that in package.lisp, so I guess it's ok, I'm not playing package tricks once the code is creating threads 20:20:07 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:51 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 20:21:26 if I have a sequence of objects (ie some added by user into a list), and I would to have both original order (since its a persistent list), yet have LRU (kind of like alt-tab list), whats the best way to accomplish that? only thing I've come up with is adding "seq" field to object, every time object becomes current, I do (setf (lru-seq-of obj) (incf (seq-counter-of (parent-of obj)))), then sort on 'seq-of 20:26:38 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-172-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:14 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:27:34 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-172-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 -!- entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-172-46.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:46 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-244-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:25 -!- lispm [~lispm@d177140.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 20:28:26 maxm: keep a priority queue? 20:28:50 sorting everytime is slow for nontrivial amounts of objects 20:29:36 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 20:32:45 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 20:34:09 maxm: ring buffer? 20:34:41 total ordering 20:38:26 In the new hunchentoot, how can I define a easy-handler for the root? :uri "" or :uri "/" don't seem to catch it. 20:38:26 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-76-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:39:35 maxm: just keep two lists. 20:41:43 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:16 note that keeping LRU with a ring buffer requires traversing the entire list to find the object 20:42:22 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:25 I've been using (hunchentoot:create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler "/"...) only 20:42:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-165.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:31 Ok, it made it with my own dispatch function. 20:44:00 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:15 Or if you're going to add a field, add a field to hold the original ordering. 20:44:16 oGMo: that's another question. you can keep in the object the previous cell where it's stored in the LRU list. 20:44:18 That's not going to change. 20:44:36 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:44:39 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 20:45:13 So you can reorder it with (setf *lru* (rplacd (pop (cdr (previous-cell object))) *lru*)) 20:45:27 or something like that. 20:46:06 pjb: ah true, that would work better than a heap then 20:46:12 (setf (cdr *lru*) (rplacd (pop (cdr (previous-cell object))) (cdr *lru*))) ; actually, since you'd need to prefix a cons cell to the LRU. 20:46:50 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: au revoir] 20:47:36 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 20:47:47 -!- ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:48 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:48:27 maxm: if you don't need true LRU, there are a lot of efficient psuedo-LRU algorithms you can do as well 20:48:48 it's well studied since CPU caches are kind of a big deal 20:49:09 pnq [~nick@ACA27C6A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:50 jasom: performance wise its non-issue more of coding style, non-introduction of bugs.. I dislike two lists coz it can get out of sync... the objects are gui objects selected by user (think of vector drawing program or such), and there is a dialog showing all of them, where user expects them to be in the order they were added 20:50:05 but when manipulating them directly, there is z-order type thing 20:50:51 *Xach* is reminded of the popular C technique of embedding next pointers directly into objects 20:51:18 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:38 maxm: you could use something like a treap too, I guess 20:51:43 so far most suggestions seem to be more complex then what I coded without thinking much (ie ever increasing seq counter) 20:52:02 if you don't care about performance then a seq counter is fine 20:52:10 you just will have to sort everytime you display 20:52:23 but if it's less than a few thousand, that's probably fine 20:52:36 yea I expect less then 100, its basically charting app 20:52:50 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.69.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:53:20 Is there anyway from preventing this form from bugging out (aside from not doing it): 20:53:24 (format nil ";; ~{S~}" '(foo bar)) 20:54:00 *jasom* doesn't understand mon_key's question 20:54:53 jasom: on my sbcl and clisp it will format 'S' forever (or until the stack is exhausted). 20:55:09 right 20:55:30 mon_key: consume something. like with ~* 20:55:38 mon did you meant S to be ~S maybe? 20:56:01 maxm: yes i did - seems like a trivial error to get hosed by :) 20:56:07 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:21 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:36 you can use ~:{ 20:56:39 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:40 *maxm* cleans fingernails with his occam's razor 20:56:45 which always uses one item each itteration 20:57:07 and also looks like a frowning Tintin 20:57:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:58:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 or you can use something like ~1000{ which will bound the number of iterations 20:59:25 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 21:01:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:02:05 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 21:04:42 Xach: thanks 21:09:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:40 Tintin disguised with a moustache. 21:10:01 -!- calabiyau [~jgp@adsl-070-148-061-036.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:10:37 calabiyau [~jgp@adsl-070-148-061-036.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:13 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:48 phizyx [~phizyx@078088204010.walbrzych.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:19:54 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:24:16 -!- rjj [~randall@108-80-22-5.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 21:25:26 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:32:25 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:34:51 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 21:35:54 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA27C6A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:38:14 -!- lxnch is now known as _lxnch 21:39:29 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:41:01 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:26 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:55 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:48 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.40.178] has joined #lisp 21:45:27 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:45:47 marchdown [~marchdown@178.79.139.40] has joined #lisp 21:45:55 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:46:05 new [~new@kindista.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:42 -!- dl [~download@dhcp154.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:47:22 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:48:08 Xach: did you see my RSS proposal for http://planet.lisp.org/? I suppose the "procedure" to get there is to have a lisp blog feed and ask you?:) 21:49:41 Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:44 I did,yes 21:52:55 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.40.178] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:54:13 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:37 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 21:55:32 great :) 21:56:01 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:56:17 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c147c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:58 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:45 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:55 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.13.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:29 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:10:57 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:59 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:00 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:11:00 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 22:11:14 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:40 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:15:13 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:18:10 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:18:16 How can I make my cl system forget interned symbols? I sometimes forget to export symbols or do strange stuff and then my image gets fucked up and I don't know how to fix it without restarting the image and reloading my system 22:19:13 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 22:19:19 you can delete the package 22:19:22 or unintern the symbol 22:22:24 Oh, awesome. I didn't know there was a way to delete packages 22:22:51 So what do you do when you accidentally intern a symbol in a package? Just use unintern? 22:24:11 -!- otwieracz is now known as help 22:24:16 -!- help is now known as otwieracz 22:26:20 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:36 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has joined #lisp 22:26:44 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:37 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:45 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:04 -!- nitro_idiot__ [~nitro_idi@EM114-51-48-58.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:29:19 *|3b|* generally just ignores extra symbols interned into poackages 22:30:20 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:31:15 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:33:12 -!- calabiyau [~jgp@adsl-070-148-061-036.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:34:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:34:42 <|3b|> if there are conflicts, i'm reasonably likely to just restart the image to fix problems rather than deal with them specifically though 22:35:03 calabiyau [~jgp@adsl-070-148-061-036.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:28 Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-192-226.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:35:28 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-192-226.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:35:28 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:36:07 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:40:56 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 22:40:57 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:41:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.216.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:42:39 nitro_idiot__ [~nitro_idi@EM1-114-54-125.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:43:51 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:44:00 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:44:30 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:32 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 22:49:08 don't you have an unintern restart at conflict time? 22:49:47 <|3b|> usually, but that gets annoying quickly when there are a bunch of conflicts 22:50:29 |3b|: CCL has an unintern all restart, which is almost always what I want. 22:50:51 (all _conflicting_ symbols) 22:50:52 <|3b|> yeah, that would probably work 22:51:54 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:52:05 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:55:06 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:57:10 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 22:58:56 rpg [~rpg@mail.shirtikvah.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:55 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:00:02 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 23:00:33 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 23:04:34 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:05:07 -!- dada_cetacean [~dada_ceta@unaffiliated/dada-cetacean/x-8298717] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:05:14 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:06:34 pnq [~nick@AC81C82B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:56 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:56 BeLucid_ [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:38 Natch_z [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has joined #lisp 23:10:30 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:11:26 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:11:26 -!- Natch_z is now known as Natch 23:14:03 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:14:22 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:27:48 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-166-139.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:53 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-166.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@mail.shirtikvah.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 23:34:07 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:16 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 23:37:16 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 23:37:17 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 23:37:39 still reading the standard, do y'all really use all this # sugar much?? seems powerful but perhaps difficult to remember? 23:40:39 in general my impression of most computer "languages" is that they're much less than a human language worth of symbols, but lisp seems like it's actually normal language sized, it must take a few years to get fluent in then? 23:42:15 You don't need to know every words in a language before using it. 23:43:52 i assume very few people know all of these words! there's a common subset, i'd assume, and then sometimes someone uses a weird part of the language you have to look it up to remind yourself? 23:44:10 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-115-21.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:11 <|3b|> #' #x #\ #: #+ #- are pretty common 23:45:20 Croms [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:45:26 *Xach* uses #b and #* from time to time 23:45:34 and #p pretty often 23:45:37 *jasom* had to look up what #* did 23:45:43 <|3b|> yeah, missed #p 23:45:46 cool, i'd never thought of #+ and #- before reading about them just now, but i can see how they'd be useful 23:46:18 <|3b|> #b #* #c #( #| are reasonably common too 23:46:22 #. is useful sometimes too 23:46:41 mungojelly: you can write (function x) instead of #'x 23:46:49 *|3b|* expects # and #) are pretty much unused :) 23:47:04 can you recommend some code to read that'll give me a sense of the modern idiom? i can just look at random things on github or wherever, but perhaps you have a suggestion of some code that might be especially helpful to me? :) 23:47:32 cl-ppcre's pretty nice. 23:47:40 mungojelly: anything provided by quicklisp will be rather modern, since that means they at least have an asdf file. 23:47:55 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 23:47:59 pjb: i don't understand that at all?! a what file, who? 23:48:17 don't worry. 23:48:27 <|3b|> "asdf" is a CL program for managing dependencies between files and projects 23:48:37 mungojelly: go to http://cliki.net for the pointers. 23:48:41 <|3b|> sort of like make is for C programs 23:49:30 ok, i think i've heard people talking about asdf, i'll add that to my list of things to learn about :) 23:49:51 #(a b c) can be writen #.(vector 'a 'b 'c) #c(1 2) can be written #.(complex 1 2), etc. All reader macros can be substituted by #. something. 23:50:00 <|3b|> yeah, anything more than a file or 2 should probably be using asdf 23:50:06 rpg [~rpg@mail.shirtikvah.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:07 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81C82B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:49 |3b|: I have yet to find a good reason *not* to use asdf for anything I'm going to ever load 23:51:25 at least if it has dependencies at all 23:51:27 <|3b|> jasom: laziness primarily, which is why asdf wins for anything much larger than a file :) 23:52:13 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@gateway/tor-sasl/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 23:52:27 |3b|: quickproject is faster than getting (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (asdf:load-system ... right 23:52:28 <|3b|> being infrastructure stuff like quicklisp or asdf itself is another reason, but most people don't need to worry about that 23:52:57 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:16 Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-235-217.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:53:16 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-235-217.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 23:53:17 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:53:26 <|3b|> right, lots of dependencies is a reason to switch to using asdf sooner even for a single file 23:54:37 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:07 <|3b|> mungojelly: to some extent remembering the # reader macros in terms of # is the wrong way around, much easier to remember them in terms of what they do 23:55:42 <|3b|> mungojelly: like i almost forgot #x, since i think of it as just syntax for hex numbers, without thinking about the # 23:55:44 What does #( do? 23:56:13 What does #xnnn do if not #.(parse-integer "nnn" :radix 16) ? 23:56:27 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 23:57:28 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:49 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 23:57:59 i was just sanity checking the impression i was getting of this language with y'all, because it's kinda hard to believe. everyone else is using these crazily simplified scrappy little languages, and you're here using this everything.. weird situation. O.o 23:58:21 <|3b|> pjb: my point is that the important part isn't that you want to interpret a sequence of characters starting with #, the important part is that you want to enter a number into the source as hex 23:58:41 mungojelly: it's up to you to use them or not. 23:59:00 mungojelly: why would you want to create a vector at read time, instead of creating it at run-time? 23:59:25 well, i have to learn to read this stuff if i'm going to understand what y'all are saying :P 23:59:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@mail.shirtikvah.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 23:59:28 (loop for i from 1 to 3 do (print (aref #(a b c) i))) vs. (loop for i from 1 to 3 do (print (aref (vector 'a 'b 'c) i))) 23:59:55 they do the same thing. the only difference is that the first one creates the vector at read time, while the other creates 3 vectors at run-time.