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I was expecting something a little more specific. 02:29:43 -!- saage_ [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:32:54 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:33:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.195.69.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:51 -!- mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has left #lisp 02:39:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:40:05 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-181-224.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:08 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 02:40:41 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 02:40:57 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:43:05 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 02:43:18 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Ping 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:15:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.35] has joined #lisp 05:15:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.149.35] has quit [Changing host] 05:15:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:15:53 -!- meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:16:32 ASau [~user@95-24-137-1.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:19:22 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:20:10 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:21:41 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru` 05:21:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:22:22 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:27:32 mrSpec [~Spec@LPuteaux-156-15-35-166.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:27:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@LPuteaux-156-15-35-166.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host] 05:27:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:28:00 a7p [a7p@8.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:43 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ksutixcusklitedi] has joined #lisp 05:30:51 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-159-37.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 05:33:41 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:35:17 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 05:36:56 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.24.244] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 05:37:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:40:54 StretchedALot [StretchedA@93.89.92.12] has joined #lisp 05:41:10 can lisp be used to write diarrhea diagnostic programs? 05:41:31 Sure. I assume that you are a domain expert. 05:41:38 He is. 05:41:43 So, just get your shit together, and off you go. 05:42:44 okay 05:42:54 so this device is a wand with sensors 05:42:56 I am designing it 05:43:07 and will need a program to interpret the data it collects 05:43:18 the idea is that the patient comes into the doctor's office with diarrhea 05:43:30 the doctor asks the patient to bend over, and he sticks a wand into the rectum 05:43:40 the wand has sensors that analyze the present microbes 05:43:46 and sends the data to the computer 05:43:55 where the program interprets and displays the results 05:44:01 it would eliminate stool samples and lab work 05:44:02 :D 05:44:06 can lisp be used for this? 05:44:46 arg 05:44:51 wtf is wrong with you people? 05:45:05 Sure could be. 05:45:14 Off you go and get your hands dirty. 05:45:47 zhivago 05:45:52 how much do lisp programmers charge? 05:46:09 As much as possible. 05:46:12 http://pastebin.com/GNEfTvaH 05:46:15 (ideally) 05:46:17 so what is the median? 05:46:27 how much did you charge your last customer? 05:47:37 asvil [~asvil@178.121.35.183] has joined #lisp 05:47:50 I would be foolish to disclose such information. 05:48:00 It would hamper effort to charge as much as possible. 05:48:04 How much money do you have? 05:48:07 lol 05:48:18 would you give a discount if I were to suck your dick and drink your cum? 05:48:53 I could do it several times throughout the project 05:49:23 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 05:49:32 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q StretchedALot!*@* 05:49:44 So little cleverness to go around ... 05:50:07 Ahh, thank you! 05:52:47 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:35 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-iccgqdeuguepfkfs] has joined #lisp 05:53:35 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-iccgqdeuguepfkfs] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:35 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:54:42 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.35.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:58:00 -!- getoffmalawn 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10:57:54 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:05:26 r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.36.7] has joined #lisp 11:06:38 Afghan [needle@ultra30.tptp.cc] has joined #lisp 11:09:32 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:12:42 lebro [~lebro@ool-18bab6ce.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:35 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:22:45 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 11:28:37 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 11:28:37 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 11:28:38 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 11:28:51 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:09 and wood was used to make the first club 11:33:20 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-237.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:37 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-237.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:07 Remote wood thru internet doesn't exist yet. 11:36:07 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EF6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:36:13 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:36:22 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:36:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 11:36:40 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 11:36:57 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:37:23 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:10 blucas [~brad@pool-74-101-27-32.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:54 Demosthenex [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:41:42 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:41:42 -!- Demosthenex [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:42:00 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:43:08 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-116.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:02 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:06 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-50-251.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:50:46 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 11:52:33 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: .] 11:52:56 -!- sytse [sytse@2001:888:1817:0:226:18ff:fe65:ac7b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:53:24 ah the smell of #lisp scrollback in the morning.. poop discussions, troll baiting by toxicologist-emeritus, and genitalia puns 11:53:51 maxm: we've been missing you, too 11:56:53 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-130.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:19 -!- tsuru``` is now known as tsuru` 11:57:51 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:54 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-116.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:58:56 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:34 so for curious people here, http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/temp/sudoku/ (soon to land in github with a proper licence and all the jazz) (wtfpl) 11:59:35 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 11:59:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:13 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:04:11 -!- Afghan [needle@ultra30.tptp.cc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:04:30 dim: minor nitpick (floor (/ x y)) == (floor x y) 12:04:51 dim: how do you explain that solving a "hard" puzzle takes less time than an "easy" one, on average? 12:04:59 (just curious) 12:05:20 Hard puzzle have more constraints: less space to explore. 12:05:22 I think that's because it's made to be hard for a human 12:05:34 ah, ok 12:06:07 mal__: thx! 12:06:15 Ingreasing depth is bad for human, but if you don't increases the space to explore, it's no problem to computers. 12:07:09 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:21 there are puzzles that are designed to be hard for computers: they increase the number of cells for which a program pretty much has to guess and backtrack. There's also a chance that some of these sudokus aren't strictly correct: puzzles are supposed to have exactly one solution. I've seen really bad results when multiple solutions exist. 12:09:38 mgsk [~Mark@li357-97.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-3-99.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:10:03 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 12:11:20 pkhuong: it seems that Norvig's algo is too simple to care much for that, and it's not backtracking 12:11:25 http://norvig.com/sudoku.html 12:12:36 "What is the search algorithm? Simple: first make sure we haven't already found a solution or a contradiction, and if not, choose one unfilled square and consider all its possible values." <- that's backtracking. 12:13:56 It might not use shallow binding, but that's an implementation detail. The result is the same. Propagate as much as possible, and guess when we're stuck. 12:13:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:02 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:14:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has joined #lisp 12:14:35 read "To avoid bookkeeping complications, we create a new copy of values for each recursive call to search." and following, he claims that it's not really backtracking 12:14:42 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-111-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:15:09 Call it "explore a search tree" if you want. The effect is the same: we're out of P. 12:15:22 but yes it looks like glossary problem over the word backtracking, all you're saying seems true apart from that implementation detail :) 12:17:41 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.155.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:42 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 12:18:36 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:19:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:22:53 yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has joined #lisp 12:23:49 Is xcl abandoned? 12:24:43 No, it's free software. 12:25:07 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:25:13 Only proprietary software can be abandoned. 12:26:10 YoungFrog [~youngfrog@geodiff-mac3.ulb.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:26:14 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:26:21 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:26:56 I think you're mistaken, no active maintainer == abandoned, the difference is that with free software it's easy to get it back alive, all it takes is someone willing to, there's no paperwork involved 12:26:59 -!- Natch [~Natch@gateway/tor-sasl/natch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:05 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-nynxxgqmlnackhbg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:27:08 it could be "dead" or "inactive" possibly, though 12:27:22 A free dog is not abandoned: it's free. It may roam wherever he wants. 12:27:28 Similarly free software. 12:27:54 ZabaQ: it is abandoned 12:27:54 Only proprietary (owned) dogs can be abandoned, and similarly, abandonware is by definition proprietary software. 12:28:04 well a free dog generally is dead if nobody saw it move for a decade, say 12:28:31 Yes, but in dog years. That makes 70 years for software. 12:28:39 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 So, ok, Ada Lovelace's program is dead. 12:29:04 ok. I give you the trolling award and will stop trying :) 12:29:28 dim: he is not trolling, he is simply right and it is important that everyone knows! 12:29:43 As soon as ZabaQ downloads it, compiles it, and patch it, it is not dead anymore. That's the principle of free software. 12:30:25 H4ns: I can see that, yes, but I'm too proud to admit it... 12:30:30 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:30:36 *dim* . o O (that should do it) 12:30:54 "such is the power of the dark side of the force" 12:31:42 -!- blucas [~brad@pool-74-101-27-32.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: blucas] 12:33:09 dim: the question of "active maintainer" is the same as the question of the length of the coasts of England. 12:34:34 I need some more enlightenment here 12:34:45 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:35:29 It depends on the resolution you're looking at. 12:36:05 Better questions to ask is whether some software is maintainable easily (well structured and documented). 12:37:21 whether it's mostly bug free, or well featured, etc. 12:37:49 dim: pjb is in philosophical mood, here comes "whoa, its fractals all the way down".. generally length of the coast is used as example of an finite object having infinite length, ie if you zoom into the coast, there always nooks and crannies, you zoom in more, there are always more of them, so if you measure accurately enough, length of coast is infinite 12:38:02 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:41 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@213.103.211.58] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 12:38:47 maxm: thx, the "resolution" keyword was enough tho :) 12:38:56 and now gdb is playing tricks to me 12:39:08 maxm: what about the plank length? would mean that the coast is not infinite... 12:40:52 flip214: yes, but then distance is even less defined :-) 12:41:04 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 12:42:05 "my god, it's full of stars" 12:42:09 Let's consider two events: a photon P is emited by an electron E1; the photon P is absorbed by an electron E2. How much time is there between those two events? 12:42:15 *maxm* learned not to discuss physics when he suspects actual physicist may be reading, as I'm evevitably shown error in my ways :-) 12:42:16 heh end-of-hollywood-relevant-quotes 12:42:18 #lispcafe 12:43:03 Wasn't 2001 made in England? 12:43:04 Fv [~zyhzyhfv@114.96.150.254] has joined #lisp 12:43:50 Well, this channel got surreal, fast.. 12:44:05 phadthai: yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_%28film%29#Filming ; not a Hollywood production. Naturally, any good movie by definition cannot be made in Hollywood. 12:44:35 I should have said movie then :) 12:45:05 well I might agree with your last sentence too, in general 12:45:27 pjb: I was just wondering why xcl has seen no commits for a goodly while..was the implementation flawed in some way? 12:45:48 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 12:46:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:46:20 ZabaQ: it is free software, so you're talking about it wrongly. you need to ask "IS it ...?". it is important to do that in order not to derail the channel discussion. 12:47:13 *ZabaQ* is trying to wrap his head around this mindset.. 12:47:30 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47:32 ZabaQ: I'm not sure how true it is, but the cliki page on it says that it's in very early stages 12:48:03 -!- Fv [~zyhzyhfv@114.96.150.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:48:34 if so, maybe it wasn't complete enough to be really useful and the only author couldn't yet complete it (only a hypothesis) 12:48:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:50:14 aloysius21 [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:54 "The latest snapshot fails 113 out of 21609 tests in the XCL fork of pfdietz's ANSI tests," 12:52:12 Not sure how good/bad that is.. 12:54:12 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 12:59:52 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-45-220.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:08 urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-10-12.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 13:01:56 ZabaQ: the author found other interests IIRC. 13:02:11 ZabaQ: I think the author's lost interest. Last I heard about it, Graves' goal was to be able to build SBCL, and he'd basicaly just got there. 13:03:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #lisp 13:04:04 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.38.119] has joined #lisp 13:04:23 dekuked [~dekuked@c-71-232-159-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:52 -!- yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:25 But that doesn't mean that anything is wrong with xcl. Get it, use it, patch it: it may be of good value for you. 13:07:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:07 LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:12:15 when did xcl start being developed? 13:12:18 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 13:12:53 after ABCL I'd say. 13:14:20 baidushixiong123 [5ceeae0a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.238.174.10] has joined #lisp 13:18:44 is there some function to keep only the first (key, value) pair from a plist, or do I have to do (alexandria:alist-plist (remove-duplicates (alex:plist-alist ...)))? 13:19:31 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:20:05 also, what is the best sql/general db orm? nothing on the cliki stands out as being a popular standard. is there anything close to the multi-db persistent library for yesod? 13:20:19 (subseq plist 0 2) 13:21:11 dekuked: postmodern 13:21:57 Ah, for general db, clsql. 13:22:11 pjb: sorry, need to be more exact with my question. I want to keep only the first (key value) _for_each_key_. 13:22:27 yakov_ [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has joined #lisp 13:22:55 pjb: is postmodern easier to work with than cl-perec? 13:22:57 pjb: postmodern is an orm? 13:23:15 H4ns: more or less. 13:23:23 dekuked: I don't know cl-perec. Try them and tell us. 13:23:48 Well, then you may consider an OODBMS? cl-store or something like that? 13:23:53 H4ns: I think submarine is an orm leveraging postmodern, but I might be mistaken 13:23:57 SQL is a good language to be proficient in, beware of the ORM sirens 13:24:42 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:24:47 I'm not assuming orm will work perfectly, I just want a crutch atm 13:24:59 I think I'll be happy with clsql ... because I got an existing DB translated via clsql-orm (not perfectly, but better than nothing) 13:25:54 -!- yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:28:26 iamlacroix [~iamlacroi@c-69-245-49-12.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:33 -!- iamlacroix [~iamlacroi@c-69-245-49-12.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:44 rwx [~ralph@adsl-69-208-0-143.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:58 -!- rwx [~ralph@adsl-69-208-0-143.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 13:33:19 is there a uniquify-plist function or something similar? 13:34:08 flip214: which key should it keep, if there are duplicates? the first one? 13:34:09 I don't know one, write it. 13:34:14 Yes. 13:34:26 Xach: remove-duplicates has a :from-end parameter for that distinction 13:34:41 I already have one - via plist-alist, alist-plist, and remove-duplicates ... just wondered 13:34:58 flip214: so your theoretical function would also have a :from-end? 13:35:19 Xach: or a :keep-first, or a :keep-last, or whatever else you can come up with ... 13:35:49 I'd have thought that alexandria already has such a function 13:36:08 Why do you want to do it? 13:36:42 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:37:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:38:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:38:02 Xach: Sometimes it's good to ask for the motivation, as from time to time other ways are superior. 13:38:29 but perhaps a simple answer would be more preferred. 13:38:43 *Xach* loses interest in helping flip214 ever again 13:38:54 there are some things (like clsql:def-view-class) that _don't_ allow duplicate keys in the slot definitions 13:39:14 other define to use the first or last occurence -- here I get an error. 13:39:53 sounds like clsql is really great! :/ 13:39:54 who uses the last occurence? 13:40:31 -!- Blkt` [~Blkt@82.84.189.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:35 jdz: I don't know offhand, just remembered that it's specified for some functions. eg. remove-duplicates uses the last by default. 13:42:12 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:43:23 flip214: usually duplicate keys in plists are no problem. Perhaps you want to use hash-tables? 13:44:07 flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/130487 13:46:35 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:17 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 13:48:22 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.155.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:58 punee_ [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:22 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.155.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:36 kanru [~kanru@36-226-33-124.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-135.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.38.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:55:54 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:55:54 -!- punee_ is now known as punee 13:59:59 -!- am0c [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:35 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:05 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:14 pjb: something like that would be nice in alexandria. 14:06:15 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:09:34 am0c [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has joined #lisp 14:09:48 (morning 'lisp) 14:13:32 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:16 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:27 hello 14:20:31 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:43 hello loke 14:22:56 -!- Cam [~alex@trivialand/staff/Cam] has quit [Quit: leaving. now.] 14:22:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:09 Vorado [~vorado@96.31.81.139] has joined #lisp 14:23:35 -!- Vorado [~vorado@96.31.81.139] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:42 Vorado 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[~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 16:03:04 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 16:03:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:11:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:12:40 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-237.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:14:11 mrSpec [~Spec@smb-rsycl-04.wifihubtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@smb-rsycl-04.wifihubtelecom.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:14:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:15:33 why does stumpwm crash all of the time? 16:15:50 especially when using clisp. 16:16:36 cause it is stump ?! 16:16:58 wth, i don't even know what it is, what is stumpwm ? 16:16:59 lcc: probably because it has been developed with sbcl? 16:17:14 wbooze: a window manager (wm) written in Common Lisp. 16:17:20 oh 16:17:39 lcc: try to run it on sbcl or ccl. 16:19:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:26:24 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:26:42 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:12 why use :with :for in loop rather than with and for? 16:29:14 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:29:29 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@ip-89-176-173-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:40 dim: there is no technical reason. it is a matter of style (and editor hightlighting triggered by keywords) 16:31:50 pjb often has well though out reasons for doing things his way, not visible at first glance, so I though I'd ask -- H4ns, maybe hightlighting is a good enough reason though 16:31:54 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82DE4B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:59 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 16:33:26 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:34:15 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.158] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 andthe style might be caused by which reads bettter to you 16:36:27 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ovudffglqhyqgimj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:31 :count t :into n :and :collect (cons r c) :into p ; reads strange tho 16:36:50 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-vuuufndrhhwmdrca] has joined #lisp 16:38:11 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 16:38:12 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:12 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 16:38:14 dim: the hyperspec uses bare symbols, so why not do it like the spec says? 16:38:26 it's what I've been doing til now 16:38:40 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:38:46 I wonder how many people use uninterned symbols. 16:38:54 pkhuong: "great idea" 16:39:00 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:02 H4ns: I know (: 16:39:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 And yet, I wouldn't be surprised. "something something pollute *package* something." 16:40:13 i like common lisp, i like dirty! 16:40:23 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:19 k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has joined #lisp 16:42:20 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@101.63.128.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:40 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 Hmm... Are the XMMn registers 128-bit? 16:44:52 loke: yes. But they may be used to operator, load and store scalar 32 or 64 bit floats. 16:45:04 *operate on, even. 16:45:10 pkhuong: OK, thanks 16:45:21 H4ns: there's a technical reason. 16:45:51 pjb: the suspense is killing me 16:45:57 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:46:56 I have another question... I came across this patch. But, the NOP's I see generated are still sequences of 0x90. Am I misunderstanding what the patch does? http://sbcl.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl/sbcl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b916eedb42ae51b5069f8e2b210649b897b2ec24 16:46:57 Try this in a fresh package: (defpackage :util (:use :cl) (:export "FOR")) (defmacro util:for ((var init limit) &body body ) `(do ((,var ,init (1+ ,var))) ((> ,var ,limit)) ,@body)) (loop for i from 1 to 20) (use-package :util) 16:47:59 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-030-251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:10 only alignment padding uses long nops. 16:48:47 pkhuong: OK, what do you call the other padding then? And why doesn't it use long nops? 16:48:51 H4ns: there are a lot of non-conforming code in the examples of the HyperSpec: it's assumed you fill in the required code to make it conforming. There are also plain examples of non-conforming code. 16:49:05 Is there by any chance a blog post on how to write a new slime command? 16:49:07 H4ns: also, a code snippet can be conforming or non conforming depending on how it's used. 16:49:19 conformity is a property of whole programs. 16:49:32 (repl command, I mean) 16:49:35 H4ns: personally I like using keywords in loop, nice colours in my editor 16:49:47 loke: what other padding? Between code and constants? Those nops never get executed, so they don't matter. 16:50:04 pjb: isn't good practice leading to avoid :use? 16:50:06 pkhuong: Oh, they aren't? I didn't know that. 16:50:08 They're just there to avoid predecoders getting confused. 16:50:22 loke: do you see any instruction that could flow there? 16:50:31 dim: if you're writing the loop form in a package you control (you know exactly what other package is used, what symbols are imported), then you can use mere symbols for loop keyword with all impunity. 16:50:33 pjb: you just use local nicknames for packages in your application and always prefix, right? 16:50:44 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 16:51:05 pkhuong: nope, now that you mention it. I just saw the sequence of NOP's, and was wondering why they weren't long. 16:51:12 if you don't :use any package, you're good, right? 16:51:16 dim: yes. Only final applications may define nickname without risk of problem, since it controls the set of package that are loaded and nicknamed. 16:51:26 *dim* is careful not to :use anything 16:51:29 pkhuong: Any particular reason it's padded with 0x90 and not 0x0? 16:51:38 Or 0xDEADBEEF or whatever? 16:51:43 dim: It's hard to read code in a package that doesn't use any other package 16:51:47 well I will admit I didn't publish any lib yet 16:51:48 12:50 < pkhuong> They're just there to avoid predecoders getting confused. 16:52:20 pjb: it's down to choosing good nicknames I guess 16:52:21 pjb: I never use anything but the CL package. I refer to all other packages fully qualified. 16:52:26 pjb: I find it quite readable. 16:52:32 +1 16:52:42 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:52:48 pjb: anyway I now understand your choice, thx 16:52:59 loke: A priory I like it too, but in the end, I prefer to use :use in defpackage since it documents the dependency in an easily accessible form. 16:53:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:53:25 pjb: Mmm... I put that dependency in the DEFSYSTEM 16:53:41 pjb: I find imported symbols to be incredibly confusing, actually. 16:53:43 loke: when I use qualified symbols, I had declarations in the start of the file to declare it: (declaim (declaration also-use-package)) (declaim (also-use-package :such-and-such)) 16:53:58 I have tools that read those declarations to build the asd files. 16:54:03 ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:06 pjb: your example is not very compelling. i can as well not re-use the symbols used by loop and avoid the issue completely. 16:54:40 pjb: I see. 16:54:44 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:52 H4ns: yes. This is something that happens only at the REPL usually. But there are good reason to have macros named FOR or WHILE... 16:55:08 loke: s/had/add/ 16:55:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:55:34 (loop for ...) and (loop while ...) are good enough, or am I too naive of a n00b? 16:55:42 dim: no, you're right. 16:56:05 so it boils down to controling and trusting what you :use, right? 16:56:05 dim: the good reason are in specific case. eg. you're using some emacs lisp code, so you have an package name emacs exporting a while macro 16:56:33 mmm, emacs package... 16:56:41 dim: controling, yes. In your own package, you control what happens, with :use and other mechanisms. 16:56:51 dim: there's one in Hemlock sources, IIRC. 16:56:53 I think I get it 16:56:58 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:57:09 pjb: your amazing CL/Scheme/Elisp plyglot code notwithstanding, I find the idea of running the same code in Emacs as well as CL to be somewhat bizarre. :-) 16:57:25 dim: otherwise, emacs colorize keywords so it's nice to use them in loop too. 16:57:34 well an modern hemlock based on webkit (possibly the Qt one) for rendering and redisplay would be interesting 16:57:43 with an emacs lisp compat layer of course 16:58:09 loke: it's a classic pattern. For example, OM-5.2.1 is written in a subset of scheme implemented in Common Lisp. 16:58:10 termkit for emacs... 16:58:25 DSL on steroids :) 16:58:29 pjb: what is OM? 16:58:32 Exactly. 16:58:36 Open Music. 16:58:39 Oh 16:58:40 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:56 Now there's a newer version still written in scheme, but implemented in C++, IIRC. 17:00:14 That's actually the whole point of lisp: you write your application in a language specific and adapted to the application, that you implement in Common Lisp. 17:00:49 I always feel pretty terrible at that 17:00:56 I just write my programs in CL. 17:01:05 Well, depends on the kind of program you have to write. 17:01:21 If you mostly write algorithmic programs, then CL is a good algorithmic programming language. 17:01:33 my understanding of what pjb just said is just called bottom-up programming, you build low-level tools and then compose then 17:01:44 in lisp, when doing that, you've been building up a DSL 17:01:58 If you write more business applications, then you may want to develop more of a DSL. 17:02:04 dim: yes. 17:02:43 dim: and you have different level of DSL: it may be just CL + a few macros/functions. Or it can be a whole language implemented in CL, perhaps even with a different syntax than sexp. 17:02:46 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.59.46] has joined #lisp 17:03:47 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.45] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 -!- yakov_ [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:55 the classic lisp DSL in my mind is just a set of functions (possibly macros too, most often not) that you keep using, the trick is that you can't diferenciate between function you've written and function provided by the implementation when reading the code 17:04:06 special forms, macros, operators, functions, it's all the same 17:04:18 (syntax wise) 17:04:47 Looks like Robert Strand went down under ;-) : http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/our_staff/profile.php?id=rstr034 17:05:03 are you reading this from a book? 17:05:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:10 pjb: is he some sort of CL celebrity? I'm learning from his book atm. 17:17:30 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:34 what book is that? 17:17:41 He used to be on irc as much as I do until last year. 17:17:55 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/enseignement/PFS/Book/programmation.html 17:18:03 that's beach, right? 17:18:07 right 17:18:15 sykopomp: partner/wife, I don't remember. 17:18:24 ok, cool. 17:19:08 a friend of mine will be TAing that course next semester; he's been asking interesting questions. Maybe I at least skim the book. 17:19:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:19:41 pkhuong: huh? 17:20:32 sykopomp: the website is, sorry. It's Irene Durand's, not beach's. 17:20:56 pkhuong: right. Beach's at Bordeaux is dangling. 17:21:12 http://www.cliki.net/Robert%20Strandh 17:22:07 ahh, I misunderstood. 17:23:03 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 17:23:43 there https://github.com/dimitri/sudoku, soon a detailed article about it, after all it has been in my mind for a couple of days, that's worth a blog entry 17:23:44 pkhuong: idurand is just a colleague. 17:24:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:24:28 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:25:07 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:26:32 k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has joined #lisp 17:27:23 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.49.213] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@235.177.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:51 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 17:30:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-72-19-50-141.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@89.201.97.48] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 17:38:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:40:08 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:42:25 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.150.120] has joined #lisp 17:46:30 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-144-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:48:35 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:19 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:43 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:55:21 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:55:53 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:50 -!- bege [~bege@91.146.168.88] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:59:30 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:08:17 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:07 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:16:13 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:48 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 18:20:48 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 18:20:48 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 18:23:33 proby [c500668c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.197.0.102.140] has joined #lisp 18:24:15 guys , i want to learn lisp is there a good tutorial out there ?? 18:24:43 for beginners 18:24:44 proby: yes. Have a look at http://cliki.net, everything's referenced there. 18:24:56 proby: do you know programming already? 18:25:01 yes 18:25:07 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@173-166-21-1-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:11 with python and pascal 18:25:13 the it's generalized advised to read PCL Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 18:25:20 then 18:25:54 proby: Pascal is an interesting choice in this age  how did you end up there? 18:26:06 proby: you may also benefit from reading sicp (and watching the sicp videos), but the examples are written in scheme, not in CL (but there's a blog with sicp example/exercises in CL). 18:26:08 edu 18:26:12 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-4.html http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 18:26:26 sellout: pascal is a nice language to teach to beginners. 18:26:57 But of course, scheme is the best to teach to beginners ;-) 18:27:01 i prefer python for beginners 18:27:53 but it is typage is loosely 18:28:12 sorry for the errors am writing in dark 18:28:45 under enemy lines ? 18:29:08 hhhhh 18:31:18 guys am having a stupid question : am feeling lisp is connected somewhat to graph theory is that true ?? 18:31:36 proby: nope. not really. 18:31:46 ok 18:33:27 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 18:34:49 proby: that said, you can implement graphs ADT, or use various graph representations in lisp easily. 18:35:41 proby: for example, see http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/L-99_Ninety-Nine_Lisp_Problems.html (solutions here: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/l99/index.html ) 18:36:30 -!- alvis```` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:43 alvis```` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:45 nice , ok , thank you everyone for being helpful. See you later ;) 18:37:14 -!- proby [c500668c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.197.0.102.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:38:32 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:38:45 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:39:20 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-251-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:39 k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has joined #lisp 18:42:24 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-143-35.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 18:52:40 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.155.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:53:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:54:51 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:57:01 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.38.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:06 jcazevedo [~textual@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 18:58:12 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:58:15 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:58:57 -!- jcazevedo [~textual@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:49 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:02 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:21 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:04:04 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:04:44 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:05:33 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:22 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 19:10:28 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has left #lisp 19:10:29 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:29 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:10:44 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 19:13:16 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:14:17 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:17:38 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 19:22:33 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:25:59 for beginners, I'd say scheme > pascal, ada > python 19:26:07 and in fact sometimes I wonder about elisp 19:26:37 because of the fact that all you need is nicely packaged into Emacs, available for win/mac/linux, easy to put on a USB key to share with friends 19:26:58 entrix_ [~entrix@95-25-219-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:27:38 elisp is a fantastic language to learn if you want to customize emacs 19:27:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for is a fantastic language to learn if you want to customize emacs. 19:28:01 if you want to learn good fundamentals of software construction and language design, not as much 19:28:09 francogrex [~user@109.130.3.223] has joined #lisp 19:28:49 ruml: How about now? 19:29:41 Xach: the doc is top notch, then you learn to make your own way in the middle of a giant mess, so it's life size learning 19:31:37 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:54 Well, emacs-24 has lexical closures, so something could be done now. 19:32:32 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.150.120] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 19:33:19 ikki [~ikki@200.92.69.171] has joined #lisp 19:37:17 hagish [~hagish@pD9FBF14A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:41 dim, have you posted your solver code yet>? 19:38:52 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:39:45 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 19:39:46 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:39:59 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:59 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:40:01 yes 19:40:16 writing an extensive article about it (not too boring I hope) 19:40:37 https://github.com/dimitri/sudoku 19:40:55 felideon: you gotta blog! 19:43:03 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.4.37] has joined #lisp 19:45:53 dim, lots of bit twiddling it seems! 19:46:43 not that much in fact 19:47:02 it's all in 6 functions 19:47:04 okay 6 19:47:44 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:44 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:49:29 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:50 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:50:06 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:10 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 19:50:22 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:48 Xach: heh, I wish I had something interesting to write. 19:51:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:51:05 Xach: I thought I had been purged already, though. :) 19:51:10 dekuked [~dekuked@c-75-68-165-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:34 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@74-220-196-96.bluehost.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:35 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@74-220-196-96.bluehost.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:52:35 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 19:55:13 maybe I can finally watch the Marco Baringer video and post my thoughts, dunno. 19:55:57 bitonic` [~user@host86-138-142-166.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:58 Lisp Science Theater 3000 19:58:12 heh, had to look that up. 19:58:18 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.49.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:36 Xach: when is your next purge? 20:06:00 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:04 No one will know the hour of my purge 20:08:12 hmmmm 20:08:36 why is (not (eq #'first #'car)) in sbcl? 20:09:02 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 20:09:15 Xach: not even Harold Camping? 20:09:38 sytse: They are distinct functions that do the same thing, not aliases for each other. 20:09:39 is this purely so a backtrace will show FIRST and not CAR? 20:09:46 Xach: yes, that's what I said. 20:09:47 Xach: but why 20:10:07 sytse: Because they are used in different situations, and keeping them distinct has value to the human reader of code. 20:10:18 human reader of backtraces, you mean. 20:10:37 I meant code. 20:10:39 the could would still be different if they were pure aliases 20:10:45 s/could/code/ 20:11:12 the only difference I can see is that a backtrace would provide you with the correct function name 20:11:35 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 20:11:39 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.3.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:48 *|3b|* sees no reason to make them aliases either, i doubt it would be any easier to implement that way 20:12:55 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:12:55 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:12:55 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:13:23 |3b|: the reason would be, less code (machine code), less cache contention 20:13:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:07 *|3b|* gets the impression sbcl doesn't really care about minimizing code size, i'd expect both to be inlined in most cases anyway 20:14:15 sytse: have you made a quantification of the gains? do you know that there would be an advantage, or are you just speculating? 20:14:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:18 that's true. 20:14:52 H4ns: gains would be mostly in shaving just a few bytes off of executable size I'd guess, because they're always inlined anyway 20:15:23 sytse: have you looked at the sizes of executable images that sbcl dumps? :) 20:15:25 |3b|: a call would take up as much space. 20:15:29 H4ns: ;-) 20:15:48 pkhuong: more, even, right? 20:15:57 <|3b|> pkhuong: i meant that it doesn't matter which it inlined, not that inlining wastes space 20:16:01 in some cases at least 20:17:14 |3b|: ah. We do try to care about executable size. I think that might be a recent (only a couple years old) concern though. 20:17:54 <|3b|> pkhuong: true, i was probably being a bit unfair :) 20:18:29 also, 'are the gains significant enough' is really a non-argument imho if there are no gains at all for not doing it 20:18:34 which brings me back to the question 20:18:40 why isn't it an alias ;-) 20:18:48 <|3b|> sytse: gains are "not having to do it" 20:19:07 then still 20:19:10 the question remains 20:19:12 gain is helping introspection be useful. 20:19:15 why wasn't it done in the first place 20:19:16 <|3b|> sytse: including things like not having to worry about all the little details like "does M-. go to the right place" 20:20:24 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:28 It's already a lot of work to have productive development and debugging environments, I don't understand why one'd work extra to make them less useful. 20:20:28 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129021136.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 20:20:38 sytse: out of interest have you found an implementation where it was T? 20:22:04 what's a good GUI framework for cl? 20:22:15 bjorkintosh: CAPI, I hear. 20:22:33 Guthur: nah, I haven't really looked at it 20:22:47 clisp and sbcl both have distinct #'first and #'car 20:23:21 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 20:23:34 Xach, is it free? 20:23:58 bjorkintosh: no. 20:24:25 great. 20:24:26 If you don't want to pay for anything, Ltk and CommonQT seem like options people have used 20:25:06 btw, out of interest.. does anyone ever use cadr, caddr, cadddr, etc? 20:25:11 instead of second, third etc 20:25:12 possibly cl-gtk2 20:25:17 sytse: all the time 20:25:22 why 20:25:32 {"key":"5e22cb1fe7bb19c9","val":{"_id":0,"_constructorName":"Game","language":"German","players":[{"_id":2,"name":"Hans","email":"hans.huebner@gmail.com","key":"124fbf64ef3b2ce0","index":0,"rack":{"_id":3,"_constructorName":"Rack","squares":[{"_id":5,"_constructorName":"Square","type":"Normal","owner":{"_ref":3},"x":0,"y":-1,"tile":{"_id":6,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"N","score":1}},{"_id":7,"_constructorName":"Square","type":"Normal","owner":{"_ref":3},"x": 20:25:33 ","score":0},{"_id":48,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"A","score":1},{"_id":49,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"U","score":1},{"_id":50,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"R","score":1},{"_id":51,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"D","score":1},{"_id":52,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"L","score":2},{"_id":53,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"N","score":1},{"_id":54,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"N","score":1},{"_id":55,"_constructorName":"Tile"," 20:25:33 ","score":0},{"_id":62,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"M","score":3},{"_id":63,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"E","score":1},{"_id":64,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"N","score":1},{"_id":65,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"H","score":2},{"_id":66,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"E","score":1},{"_id":67,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"C","score":4},{"_id":68,"_constructorName":"Tile","letter":"T","score":1},{"_id":69,"_constructorName":"Tile"," 20:25:39 *Xach* eyes H4ns 20:25:46 someone is asking for a kick.. 20:25:48 jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:25:50 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:58 whut 20:26:07 sytse: it's intuitive 20:26:17 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:18 oGMo: oh, so you don't use second etc? 20:26:31 *blush* 20:26:32 i don't recall ever having used first, second, etc 20:26:40 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:26:54 oGMo: I agree they're a bit superfluous.. 20:26:58 H4ns: no password this time? (: 20:27:08 sytse: i didn't say that 20:27:12 *|3b|* frequently uses cadr because i already used car and don't want to go back and change it :p 20:27:18 maybe 'key' is a password Phoodus 20:27:21 it's sad that interface builder was first written in lisp for lisp and it's now nowhere to be found. 20:27:25 i have not used every facility in CL; that doesn't mean they're superfluous 20:27:27 *pkhuong 20:27:29 pkhuong: :/ 20:28:02 <|3b|> they make more sense when you mix in things like cadar, though those tend to be a sign you should be using a better data structure 20:28:11 s3kr1t 20:28:18 SHIT, screen wasn't locked after all 20:28:19 :D 20:28:27 |3b|: usually, but sometimes in macro decomposition they're useful, or for iteration 20:29:17 just about anything in lisp is a sign you should be using a better data structure 20:29:20 s/lisp/programming/ 20:29:24 decisions, decisions.. 20:31:21 anyway, needing 'first' instead of 'car' to be able to understand someone's code is a sign you are not a very good programmer imho.. 20:31:43 <|3b|> 'need' isn't a very good metric for choosing programming constructs 20:32:06 sytse: using names to denote intent rather than implementation is a good practice. 20:32:21 sure 20:34:03 -!- LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:28 I find car cdr and all the derivatives very useful 20:35:46 was using them alot today for some Emacs customisation 20:35:57 not CL but same principle 20:37:05 if you are using lists for structured data then they are indispensable 20:37:26 hmm, the us navy does lisp? 20:37:49 dolphins don't like {} 20:38:00 lol, dolphins 20:38:11 sytse: officially only since don't ask don't tell 20:38:31 looool 20:38:53 maxm: is that part of the competitive advantage thing 20:39:20 *Guthur* does know the real meaning though 20:39:21 maxm: is lisp prohibited by the bible? 20:39:57 rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:59 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:12 tough crowd, usually navy jokes go with flying colors :-s 20:41:50 anyway, did anyone coded anything good or learning anything cool recently? (lisp related?) 20:42:27 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:42:36 maxm: I loved the joke, was just following up ;-) 20:43:16 maxm: I'm busy writing an extremely simple variant of knuth-plass linebreaking in lisp :) 20:43:40 ah I remember, bookmarked it btw 20:43:41 but my brain is about as functional as a cauliflower today, so.. 20:43:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:09 *maxm* did a similar algorithm long time ago when I was writing an IRC client, I was so proud that I'm able to wrap text under for variable width fonts 20:44:30 cauliflower are fractal like which might be functional 20:44:51 or rather a functional solution might be good 20:45:15 the problem-solving effectiveness is not huge though =] 20:46:36 -!- hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-134-232.w86-215.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:30 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-8-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:48:00 *maxm* learned how to make lisp source blocks highlighted in github's markdown.. you do it like this, ```common-lisp\n ...code ... \n``` 20:48:32 since probably 90% of lisp projects don't have their examples in markdown highlighted, it was pretty cool to find how to do it 20:48:52 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:21 maxm: https://raw.github.com/sykopomp/memento-mori/develop/README.md ```lisp works, too. 20:49:48 (but maybe ```lisp is the reason for the funky highlighting of : and #) 20:49:59 *maxm* is sad he can't use org for documenting, but its just too heavyweight 20:50:17 maybe I can sneak in a patch for ``` into it 20:50:40 github's org mode rendering needs a lot more work than just ``` 20:51:14 yea export is in a state of flux, there is a new exporter thats being actively worked on. 20:52:22 *|3b|* suspects you could get reasonable results out of github's org rendering, if you wrote specifically for it... not very useful for things you actually use for org-mode though 20:53:25 *|3b|* also notes that 3bmd (optionally) supports the github style ``` blocks 20:54:08 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-vuuufndrhhwmdrca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:14 3bmd does the rainbow parens thing, doesn't it? 20:54:21 with links to clhs? 20:54:34 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:54:36 <|3b|> yeah, it uses colorize (from lisppaste) 20:54:36 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ermkcfmwcgqpvtep] has joined #lisp 20:54:50 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:55:08 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has joined #lisp 20:55:19 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:53 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:18 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.45] has joined #lisp 20:58:16 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 20:58:17 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-244-214.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:52 is there a facility to access poll/select or even epoll from SBCL? 20:58:56 or some other free CL 20:59:09 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-206-65.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:59:24 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:59:28 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:59:38 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 21:00:29 bitonic`: yes. The FFI can be used to call C functions. iolib wrap those functions and builds a portable IO infrastructure on top of them. 21:00:38 bitonic: probably not builtin, but i wrapped it fairly easily 21:00:54 does cl-oauth support oauth2? 21:01:26 pkhuong: OK, is FFI painful? 21:01:30 bitonic: no. 21:01:37 perfect. thanks. 21:01:52 iolib sounds nice actually. 21:02:10 *Quadrescence* will say it's painful when a legacy system uses CFFI, UFFI, and LispWork's FLI all in conjunction with each other... >:( 21:02:38 Quadrescence: well in this case it's just me, and I don't care about being compatible :P 21:03:16 -!- ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:03:30 bitonic: iolib is the way to go. 21:04:02 Fade: No, but there is an oauth2 lib. 21:04:27 -!- seabass [~jtd7@cypress.cs.unh.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:40 I'm looking at this one on github by neronus 21:05:04 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:06:24 sykopomp: uhm OK, it's just an exercise so I might go for the rough way 21:07:04 bitonic: why? 21:07:25 writing a whole FFI infrastructure to deal with the syscalls is a relative pain :) 21:07:48 but really up to you. I just don't get it. :) 21:07:59 poll takes like 30 seconds :p 21:07:59 sykopomp: just plain select or poll is just a couple LOC. 21:08:01 sykopomp: whole? it's 2 functions, some marshalling to create the structs - I'd be surprised if it's more than 20 lines 21:08:46 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.4.37] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:09:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:26 Sorry, I figured a reasonable use of it would be more than just that. 21:09:56 sykopomp: well once I have the functions I have to write the software but that's the same with iolib 21:10:02 like, handling error codes, setting up the plain socket connections, and such. 21:10:19 including declarations and a function to reasonably use it, it may be about 60 lines 21:10:42 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 21:11:39 How do you get SBCL's socket fd, anyway? 21:11:54 well, socket handling is an entirely different thing .. at that point use iolib or similar. if you just get an fd from somewhere and want to poll it, it's probably simpler just to wrap poll 21:12:30 sykopomp: fd-stream-fd. But don't do that (: 21:13:33 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-135-199-85.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: mcstar] 21:18:19 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:18:40 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:19:06 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 21:22:49 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:11 ah, so that might be a problem. 21:26:36 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 21:27:35 pkhuong: the portability of iolib you spoke, I assume you meant across CL implementations? 21:27:47 or does it now support Windows 21:27:55 bitonic: what problem ? 21:28:27 s/spoke/spoke of 21:29:04 fe[nl]ix: the fact that I can't easily get a fd out of a CL socket 21:29:14 to use with poll 21:30:37 bitonic: you can use usocket 21:31:12 usocket doesn't let you have the fd either. 21:31:13 I'd expect that to be not the idiomatic way to write networking code with CL? 21:31:23 http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/10-solving-sudoku.html 21:31:41 I now have a CL specific rss too, what about planet.lisp.org? 21:31:46 jreynoso__ [~jreynoso@200.92.69.171] has joined #lisp 21:31:57 http://tapoueh.org/rss/cl.xml 21:32:18 Xach: you around? :) 21:33:09 bitonic: usocket *does* have a select()-like API (like fe[nl]ix pointed out). But meh. :) 21:34:43 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 21:35:27 *jasom* finds that any sufficiently complex usocket application needs to reimplement parts of iolib from scratch 21:37:10 -!- jreynoso__ [~jreynoso@200.92.69.171] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:41:19 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:41:33 sykopomp: oh, OK. 21:42:04 well, OK. I want to do a single threaded HTTP file server. simple stuff, just want to get dirty with CL. 21:42:30 I don't want to have everything done already, and I'm afraid that iolib might do too much 21:44:22 usocket looks really good actually. but no epoll sadly 21:45:22 bitonic: It wont do to much 21:45:33 Guthur: iolib? 21:45:35 Might do too much? Writing an HTTP server is hard enough already, you don't need to make things harder on yourself. :) 21:45:43 bitonic: yep 21:45:43 bitonic: iolib does Just Enough 21:45:56 and thats stretching it 21:46:11 bitonic: there's some higher-level libraries hanging around for doing this kind of networking, too. 21:46:24 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:46:43 sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:112a:c866:db00:91aa] has joined #lisp 21:46:45 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:46:47 foom: writing an HTTP server that just serves files is really easy 21:46:53 the easiest way to write a webserver in Common Lisp is (ql:quickload 'hunchentoot) 21:46:54 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:08 I don't have go get anything done, it's just a learning thing 21:47:17 Hi, has anyone used cl-base64 with utf-8 strings? 21:47:25 eh, it's not really easy...unless you ignore 90% of the requirements of HTTP. 21:47:49 (which you can often get away with, to be sure) 21:47:59 foom: well OK, maybe not a compliant webserver :P 21:48:16 for example: "here are some curly quotes " 21:48:16 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.63.107] has joined #lisp 21:48:29 writing an http/1.1-compliant webserver is really not very hard. 21:48:38 at least I don't think so :) 21:49:01 I never tried to be compliant, so I don't know 21:49:06 which one did you write? 21:49:26 foom: what do you mean? 21:49:26 me? 21:49:36 sykopomp: yea. 21:49:54 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:50:10 foom: https://github.com/sykopomp/conserv/blob/develop/docs/conserv.http.md 21:50:13 (the smiley made it sound like you had, sorry if I misunderstood) 21:50:27 gdl-user> (base64:string-to-base64-string "here are some curly quotes ") 21:50:28 gdl-user> (base64:base64-string-to-string "aGVyZSBhcmUgc29tZUAcY3VybHkgcXVvdGVzHSA=") 21:50:28 sykopomp: it's harder than you think, because the standard has some stupidities that a lot of real-world web servers don't do 21:50:29 "here are some@curly quotes " 21:50:29 gdl-user> 21:50:31 I did. 21:51:08 it does not seem to encode/decode the curly quotes properly... 21:51:31 mine's probably buggy as hell, but I don't believe it's too far off from full compliance. It's been long enough that I couldn't rattle off the details off the top of my head, though. 21:52:37 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 21:52:53 bitonic: http://jmarshall.com/easy/http/ is *really* handy, by the way. 21:53:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: brb unicode] 21:53:38 sykopomp: thanks 21:53:43 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:53:44 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:54:17 sykopomp: I don't see any support for e.g. If-Match in your server. Can't be compliant without that, somewhere. (of course maybe you leave it up to the next layer to check that?) 21:55:23 speaking of http silliness, content-length if not mandatory in multipart POST parts.. 21:55:25 foom: I leave a number of things up to the next layer, yes. 21:55:47 foom: I only implemented the things it made sense to have at that level -- application-specific things would need to be taken care of by the application. 21:56:19 phadthai: content-length is not mandatory. See chunked encoding. 21:56:27 if I remember http 1.1 rfc says what must at least be supported, and it's a subset of what can be supported 21:56:32 sykopomp: more silliness :) 21:56:36 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:56:53 phadthai: Does "it doesn't explode" count as "supported"? :S 21:56:56 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-76-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 heh 21:57:44 sykopomp: Since such requirements will be forgotten by (or unknown to) application developers, it makes sense to put a lot of those sorts of things into the framework whenever possible. But sure, you can make your argument too. :) 21:59:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:00:15 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:15 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:00:43 http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html I see a lot of SHOULD and MAY. 22:00:45 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:45 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:01:42 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:00 If-Match has some nice MUSTs, though ::) 22:03:04 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:36 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:06:39 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:26 sykopomp: that page was *great*. thanks. 22:08:37 bitonic: np :) Good luck! 22:09:29 the only thing that slightly annoys me is that there is no iolib in debian repos. I guess I have to use quicklisp 22:10:58 is it OK to mix up debian packages and quicklisp ones? I'm asking because with Haskell it's a huge mess 22:11:12 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.63.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:53 bitonic: I don't think anyone here will recommend using the debian packages 22:12:01 antifuchs: why not? 22:12:03 better to rely on quicklisp all the way 22:12:11 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:12:15 probably not enough people use them to keep them up-to-date. 22:12:18 they're outdated and it doesn't seem like anyone maintains them 22:12:30 is there any actual lisp *software* in debian? or just libraries? 22:12:41 antifuchs: well I don't care about the last version. I doubt they're really all orphaned 22:12:50 bitonic: then go ahead 22:12:50 maxima is in debian, I think. 22:12:55 why did you ask again? 22:13:10 In general, i find that when debian has a lib packaged without any software using it, it's pretty likely to be under-maintained. 22:13:28 antifuchs: because for example I have slime installed with debian, and now I'll be using quicklisp for iolib 22:13:44 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:13:50 well, good luck. I doubt you'll emerge victorious 22:14:03 Someone packaged it for some piece of private software they were writing, or in order to have their own package, or something...and then stops caring. 22:14:32 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:57 can happen with actual apps too, of course, but with libs, they're not actually useful on their own so it seems to be more likely. 22:15:12 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:15:21 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:40 bitonic: definitely not recommended to install packages through debian. Quicklisp packages are all compile-tested and have reasonably recent versions, and they're the de facto standard versions for libraries at any given point in time. 22:16:37 mah. for example cl-usocket looks healty. 22:18:51 don't ask for support from people here if you use debian packages, basically 22:19:26 sykopomp: sure, I do it just so that I don't have to worry about another package manager 22:20:30 -!- dekuked [~dekuked@c-75-68-165-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:21:06 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:21:13 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:18 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:26 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:30 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:17 I mean imho having one package manager for each PL (and that's how it's starting to look now) it's not ideal 22:23:04 -!- hagish [~hagish@pD9FBF14A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:23:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:23:31 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-ermkcfmwcgqpvtep] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:33 steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-kymgwlxjahygfezt] has joined #lisp 22:23:50 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:06 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:30:16 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:30:31 Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-248-86.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:30:31 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@201-58-248-86.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:30:31 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 dekuked [~dekuked@c-75-68-165-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:56 after a cursory glance, it seems that iolib abstracts away the poll/select business 22:33:13 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:36:28 bitonic: you'd better use iolib from git, as well as cffi 22:36:34 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:36:38 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:39 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:39 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:36:39 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:37:33 bitonic: the git version also uses a C library for which I made a Debian repository 22:37:56 pnq [~nick@AC81BE78.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:18 fe[nl]ix: I looked very briefly at documentation on the website, and the multiplexing seems to be abstracted 22:38:25 (if you're referring to that) 22:39:09 in what sense ? 22:39:31 fe[nl]ix: in the sense that I see no function to poll 22:39:40 you don't necessarily have to deal with FDs 22:39:51 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:52 yeah, that's what I mean, it's abstracted 22:39:59 that's because the documentation isn't complete 22:40:03 sorry :) 22:40:06 fe[nl]ix: oh. ok 22:40:07 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:17 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:22 so do you do the waiting manually or is it some more high-level thing? 22:40:23 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 there's a libevent-like event loop - that uses epoll() - where you don't deal with FDs directly and also a wrapper for poll() 22:41:35 ok. so it is abstracted 22:42:09 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:52 [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:42:52 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host244-164-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 22:42:52 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 22:43:12 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-030-251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:44:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:37 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:45:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 22:45:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:45:42 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:47:51 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.191] has joined #lisp 22:48:42 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:07 bitonic: you also have access to the file descriptor if you need it 22:49:27 fe[nl]ix: no, it was just curiosity. 22:49:45 I mean if I decide to use iolib it'd be silly to do the polling manually. 22:53:30 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:53:43 the event-loop is meant for large numbers of FDs 22:53:53 if you only have one, the poll() wrapper is easier to use 22:55:57 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:03 fe[nl]ix: no, I want to handle large number of fds 22:57:38 ok then 22:57:53 it would be probably really use to extend usocket to use epoll 22:58:16 fe[nl]ix: the thing is that I wanted to write a fairly low-level evented server 22:58:22 bitonic: http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/data/iolib-tutorial/tutorial.html 22:58:34 but I can see why you'd abstract that away in iolib 22:58:41 hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-85-30.w92-155.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:58:52 -!- hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-85-30.w92-155.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:21 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 22:59:47 hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-85-30.w92-155.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:59:58 fe[nl]ix: that's one big tutorial, thanks 23:04:15 -!- steffi_s_ [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-kymgwlxjahygfezt] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:05:31 -!- foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:06:08 thank psilord, he wrote it :) 23:08:45 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.171.176] has joined #lisp 23:09:09 fe[nl]ix: since you're the author I'll ask directly, can I write a single threaded evented HTTP web server easily with iolib? the single threaded part seems to be the problem, I think 23:10:55 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:25 the event-loop is only single-threaded 23:12:19 ah, OK. so I should be able to handle a lot of connections with minimum overhead 23:13:03 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:37 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:15:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:20 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-143-35.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:52 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:15 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 23:22:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:17 -!- nounch [~nounch@188-194-254-16-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:28:39 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:30 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:33:37 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81BE78.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:20 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:20 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:34:20 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 23:36:47 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:13 camel__ [~camel@201.141.93.179] has joined #lisp 23:38:56 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.191] has joined #lisp 23:40:56 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-76-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 23:42:42 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:42:47 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-76-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:44:27 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:33 -!- ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:54 ofan [~ofan@unaffiliated/ofan] has joined #lisp 23:51:57 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-15-77.lns1.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:06 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:59:04 pnq [~nick@AC814846.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp