00:00:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:22 p_l|backup: Oh, hijack from readline. That's why most repls suck in the terminal vs. in-emacs. 00:00:23 paakku [~Kalle@2002:5583:6541:1:4e0f:6eff:fed5:4ee0] has joined #lisp 00:00:25 Readline. 00:00:33 Aethaeryn: yep. 00:00:44 Aethaeryn: more precisely, readline is why clisp doesn't suck in the terminal. 00:00:57 Aethaeryn: now, you can always call the other implementations with rlwrap. 00:01:12 pjb: Sure. but AFAICT the relevant portion of the spec doesn't indicate whether the stream is open so i was curios. 00:01:46 there's also prepl or whatever it was called 00:01:54 mon_key: an implementation that would (defun cons (a d) (error 'out-of-memory)) would be conforming too. 00:01:56 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:03:43 clisp and sbcl appear to allow (setf foo) as report-expression in restart-case; seems an unintended extension. are there any other standard macros that implicitly wrap a user-provided thing within (function ...)? 00:04:39 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-250-130.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:21 pjb: antifuchs: Actually the spec does indicate that m-b-s returns an open stream: '21.1.1.1.2 Open and Closed Streams' - "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, operations that create and return streams return open streams." 00:05:22 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-pawghcxbizaavtva] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:09:48 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yobucpodnqfvlyxa] has joined #lisp 00:11:03 hugoxrosa [~Hugo@189-24-148-149.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:11:09 Aethaeryn: is GCL even developed anymore? 00:11:19 I don't think so 00:11:25 GCL seems dead 00:11:43 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 00:11:51 occassionally you see it used for maxima... 00:11:54 I guess 00:11:59 it's a kyoto fork, right? 00:13:24 jasom: KCL -> AKCL -> {GCL, ... -> ECL} 00:13:34 something like that 00:15:16 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:16:12 GCL is dead. long live ECL. 00:20:41 mon_key: hah, that is that then (: 00:21:21 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 00:21:37 https://gist.github.com/3036597 00:21:46 Alright, correct my mistakes! :-) 00:22:12 (If there's an error on the Common Lisp origin side of things, it's Wikipedia's fault!) 00:24:35 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-152-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:30:06 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:37 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@209.131.196.174] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 00:36:31 is this a bug in sbcl: http://paste.lisp.org/+2SLE after make-instance has been called once without :allow-other-keys, later :allow-other-keys t does not take effect for that class. 00:36:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-136.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:37:18 Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-12-73-5.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:38:23 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:39 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 00:39:24 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-93-96.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:40:18 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:46:09 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:46:26 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:20 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 00:50:23 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 00:59:14 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@189-12-73-5.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 00:59:39 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@c-67-180-200-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:01:08 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:10 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 01:03:47 mcspiff [~user@CPE78cd8ec16698-CM78cd8ec16695.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:52 Hoping someone might have some old code that seems to have disappeared from the net -- Scoli, a project for working with remote sparql endpoints. RDF stuff. Anyone have a copy kicking around? 01:06:12 mcspiff: what's the dead link? 01:06:24 Depending on the type of content, http://archive.org/web/web.php can be useful 01:06:28 ikki [~ikki@189.199.209.199] has joined #lisp 01:07:07 Aethaeryn: good idea, I'll give it a shot.. 01:07:08 svn.sfmishras.com/public/scoli/trunk/scoli.asd 01:07:09 01:07:10 sorry, never heard that name, mcspiff. 01:07:53 antifuchs: Not a problem, was a small, dead project I had used for its parser. Apparently I lost the code after a reformat. Not the end of the world if I need to reimplement it myself, just wanted to save some time 01:08:29 maybe it's in quicklisp? (: 01:09:02 Damn. 01:09:04 http://web.archive.org/web/20110720012801/http://www.sfmishras.com/smishra/scoli/ 01:09:19 But the repo itself seems to either be not important enough to crawl or blocked in robots.txt 01:09:27 since clicking on "repository, here" doesn't go anywhere 01:10:43 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:11:09 type "http://svn.sfmishras.com/public/" into google, you might find something useful. 01:11:59 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c1d4c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:59 lemonodor: so close :-) 01:12:54 Looks like its probably lost to the sands of time. I might end an email out to cll, but its a pretty straight forward xml format, can probably just parse out what I need with cxml 01:13:01 *send 01:14:46 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 01:15:32 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75deac.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:15:33 hi guys i'm interested in learning lisp.. does the dialect i choose make much of a difference? 01:15:59 if so what do you recommend? 01:16:20 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:47 tiripamwe: this room mainly focuses on common lisp, so I'm sure you'll get plenty of support for that 01:17:51 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:18:46 i was thinking of just setting up LispBox... that comes with QuickLisp, 01:19:11 tiripamwe: specification implmementation may prove vital. 01:21:58 thanks guys... most of books and tutorials out there focus on Common Lisp... i think i'll go with that 01:25:13 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has joined #lisp 01:25:38 tiripamwe: http://cliki.net 01:26:50 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:32:30 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:41:10 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:42:36 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 01:45:27 -!- Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:45:50 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:50 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:47:56 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:16 -!- paakku [~Kalle@2002:5583:6541:1:4e0f:6eff:fed5:4ee0] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:53:22 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56:04 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-zuussspsprfvunqf] has joined #lisp 01:57:07 -!- notzmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:57:18 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-pawghcxbizaavtva] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:00:02 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 02:03:27 chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:03:28 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:03:28 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 02:06:44 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:12:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.199.209.199] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:19:57 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:24:53 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-141-91.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 02:28:59 what's that emacs mode that slime-repl is based on? 02:29:05 for general interactive processes? 02:30:03 Transformer [~Transform@ool-44c4bb0a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:13 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-44c4bb0a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:32:15 comint-mode? 02:33:43 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:41:03 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:41:52 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 02:42:08 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 02:47:55 I asked this maybe 12 hours ago, but is anyone intending on going to ILC 2012? 02:50:28 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:53:24 gko [~user@42-75-114-114.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:49 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:53:52 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 02:56:22 mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 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[~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:55:39 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:58 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:55:59 Phoodus [~foo@72.223.116.248] has joined #lisp 06:56:25 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 06:57:02 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 06:57:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-197-27.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:01:02 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.103.158] has joined #lisp 07:01:40 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:01:42 how do I use this asdf files? 07:02:03 trying to use weblocks here, but it doesn't seem to load files in subdirectories 07:02:21 (ql:quickload :weblocks) should do 07:02:30 I've only used quicklisp to load asdf systems 07:02:50 I've created a weblocks project, it is in /tmp/foo 07:02:55 check (ql:where-is-system :weblocks) first, maybe 07:02:57 how do I load the project files? 07:03:18 see http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 07:03:36 hm 07:05:07 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:08:53 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:14:36 Quadrescence, yes, but I need to publish something... 12 days left 07:15:19 -!- Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:39 Fare_afk, what are you planning on publishing? 07:15:51 -!- Fare_afk is now known as Fare 07:15:59 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:01 IPS? :) 07:16:48 two ideas: either a theoretical article "the theory of FEXPR is exactly as trivial or non-trivial as you make it be" 07:17:52 or some practical one regarding some of the many libraries I published this year 07:18:13 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:18:36 IPS is a bit too well-known an idea to deserve an article 07:18:40 or maybe not 07:18:49 I thought about writing about libraries I've written, but thought those might be too boring, so I thought about writing something even more boring 07:19:07 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:19:25 When a French researcher has three ideas, he writes one paper. 07:19:25 when an American researcher has one idea, he writes three papers. 07:19:25 If you want your paper published in an american conference, 07:19:25 you need not only use the american language, as explicitly demanded, 07:19:25 but also the american style, as tacitly required; 07:19:26 otherwise, the reviewers won't be able to understand you, 07:19:28 and even with the best intentions, they will reject your paper. 07:19:30 So split your paper in nine parts, and submit each of them independently. 07:19:32 — as understood from an explanation by J. Pitrat 07:20:37 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-zuussspsprfvunqf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:09 quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-140-27.cjcz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:25:39 in this day and age of publish or perish, I think the difference between french and american researchers is nonexistant 07:26:33 Arrgh. ccl no longer builds with tdm-mingw... 07:26:56 Pitrat was old school 07:27:07 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:16 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ixkqszlgzqywhaii] has joined #lisp 07:29:02 the glut of third rate elsevier journals serves a purpose :) 07:29:10 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 07:31:23 Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:42 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 07:32:25 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:33:04 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:13 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-118-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:13 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-118-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:34:13 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:35:34 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@101.63.254.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:36:04 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:36:30 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:00 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 07:46:43 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-140-27.cjcz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:45 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.241.121.79] has joined #lisp 07:48:43 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 07:49:07 can anyone suggest a function to delete an element (by index) from a dynamic array (with a fill pointer) efficiently? I guess it'll necessarily be O(n) for array length n. 07:50:03 <_3b> if it isn't sorted, swap with last element and remove that 07:50:58 I mean while preserving the ordering. I guess my initial approach is to shift all elements left at indexes greater than the target then pop/reduce the fill pointer 07:51:29 <_3b> right, have to move things to preserve order 07:53:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:56:23 How can I make Hunchentoot show its demo page? 07:56:39 I followed instructions here: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/exploring-quicklisp-packages 07:57:00 I only changed the port number in two positions. 07:57:50 Quad: Why do you want to delete it? 07:58:53 Or: can anyone point me at any CL webserver which actually does have working setup instructions? 07:59:10 I want to test whether it is really is as slow as some sources say. 07:59:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:59:28 I think I saw 77 requests per second or something like that which is laughably slow. 07:59:54 <_3b> fasta: which "it"? 08:00:08 _3b: Hunchentoot 08:00:13 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:00:23 *_3b* thinks i got something like a few k req/s off the hunchentoot default page 08:00:25 _3b: I want to do some independent testing, but it cannot find the demo files. 08:00:27 Zhivago, performing Jeu de Taquin-like operations on Young tableaux 08:00:49 <_3b> fasta: how did it fail when you tried those instructions? 08:01:32 _3b: Resource /hunchentoot/test/easy-demo.html not found. 08:01:55 _3b: I don't even know where it is looking. 08:02:03 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:00 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 _3b: ok, I think the test package is simply broken. It works otherwise. 08:05:40 <_3b> fasta: that totorial seems to be oaut of date, try easy-acceptor instead of acceptor 08:06:09 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has joined #lisp 08:06:47 I have also read some FUD regarding web-services not being rock-solid under SBCL (threading crashes/memory leaks, etc.). 08:07:27 Are there any services have run with over a year of uptime without any need to look at them, because the run-time didn't work? 08:07:43 I know other tech which does have those properties. 08:07:47 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 08:07:57 (but those have other disadvantages) 08:08:26 And, is there anything which the web-frameworks do regarding security? 08:08:39 I.e. against the top 10 of OWASP problems for example. 08:09:23 *_3b* doesn't quite trust SBCL GC for long-running servers, but i'd use it anyway, and fall back to ccl if i actually had a problem and couldn't work around it 08:10:24 <_3b> from what i've seen of the web services that run on sbcl (as far a i know at least) they usually fall over for relations unrelated to sbcl 08:10:29 <_3b> if at all 08:11:36 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:12:29 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-pool6-0667.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:44 _3b: reasons like? 08:12:47 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.241.121.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:12:49 *_3b* suspects you would need to ask devs of the individual frameworks what they do about security 08:13:11 <_3b> broken code usually 08:13:28 mikolapiz-t [5bd45e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.212.94.5] has joined #lisp 08:13:39 <_3b> like lisppaste breaking when the bot it uses to announce pastes stops working, and bots stoopping working 08:13:52 <_3b> and bots stopping working because they don't notice they get disconnected 08:14:10 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.241.121.79] has joined #lisp 08:14:13 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:15:19 fasta: "isn't php" is a pretty good security measure, to start :D 08:15:22 Hunchentoot writes to stdout for every request and Emacs is really slow in showing that text, which I think is slowing things down. 08:15:44 yeah, that happens 08:15:45 <|3b|> yeah, you probably shouldn't use the default logging for benchmarking 08:15:49 Is there some way to run it in ultra-fast benchmark mode? 08:15:59 disable the stdout printing 08:16:00 :P 08:17:17 <|3b|> yeah, stop the server, and make a new easy-acceptor passing :access-log-destination nil :message-log-destination nil 08:17:24 <|3b|> then start it again 08:17:41 <|3b|> actually, you can probably change it on a running instance too 08:17:46 fasta: I can give you siege results on a hunchentoot server running if you want, the website that was measured was hitting a postgre db with postmodern at the same time so its a pretty good measure of a real world web app 08:18:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:18:28 Harag: that would be interesting, but regardless I want to see some benchmark running on my own hardware, because I have a feeling for that. 08:18:28 -!- kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 08:18:45 beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:19:43 <|3b|> (setf (acceptor-access-log-destination *web-server*) nil) (setf (acceptor-message-log-destination *web-server*) nil) should disable logging on running server 08:19:58 kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 -!- dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:27:26 tcr1 [~tcr@46.42.100.35] has joined #lisp 08:29:12 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:12 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:29:42 like-a-boss [~like-a-bo@ip-220-189.ists.pl] has joined #lisp 08:31:42 dsabanin [~dsabanin@195.208.164.212] has joined #lisp 08:37:53 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:38:34 -!- beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:38:49 fasta: there are many factors that influence hunchentoot's performance, but in general, you will find it not to be very fast compared to, say, lighttpd or node.js. it maxes out at a low few hundred requests per second in the best case. 08:39:00 fasta: depending on what your handlers return, it can be much slower. 08:39:14 H4ns: and why is it that slow? 08:39:36 fasta: because it is flexible and has a lot of features. also, it has never really been performance optimized. 08:39:54 fasta: and that has not happened because nobody actually needed it to be faster. 08:39:58 How is it 'flexible'? 08:40:23 fasta: flexible in terms of how handlers can return data to the client. 08:40:52 H4ns: be more specifc. 08:41:01 fasta: be more polite. 08:42:04 fasta: Also, threads. 08:43:28 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:44:39 >< 08:48:26 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 08:52:49 archimags restas-daemon.lisp at https://github.com/archimag/restas/blob/master/contrib/restas-daemon.lisp#LC363 wants to call swanks create-server with a key :coding-system, although that key disappeared in http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/slime/slime/swank.lisp?view=log#rev1.763 08:52:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:53:28 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.200.61] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:53:32 How do I express the above through github? 08:57:07 *chr* submits a github issue to archimag 08:58:10 *chr* pardons the noise 08:59:33 ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has joined #lisp 09:00:01 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:01:13 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has quit [Client Quit] 09:04:18 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:04:51 ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has joined #lisp 09:05:22 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:58 ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has joined #lisp 09:09:02 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 -!- devon [~devon@xyzzy.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:11:30 -!- flashback [fb@bitchx/dev/flashback] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:12:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:13:41 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:13:50 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:15:38 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:09 mel0on [~user@h-72-75.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:16:28 -!- mikolapiz-t [5bd45e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.212.94.5] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:18:04 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:20:36 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.241.233] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 09:22:44 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:23:43 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@46.42.100.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:23:44 for benchmarking a web server, you might want to consider using Tsung 09:23:52 http://tsung.erlang-projects.org/ 09:23:59 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 09:24:17 i can second that recommendation, tsung is great. 09:24:28 -!- scrimohsin [~as97bg11@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:30 well for benchmarking loads of other things too, as that speaks more protocols than just http (pgsql, mysql, ldap, xmpp, etc) 09:25:11 H4ns: do we have a varnish client in CL? 09:25:44 dim: no, "we" don't have that, afaik. i'm a die-hard squid user. 09:26:00 I'm thinking out loud here, but if hunchentoot is not offering good enough performance, then having varnish in front of it could be a good "booster" 09:26:18 is it possible to talk to squid live to prune some cache entries? 09:26:22 dim: i got all my hunchentoot deployments behind squid. 09:26:28 that's the main thing I would consider varnish for here 09:26:31 dim: squid has all and more. 09:26:35 hehe 09:26:38 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:26:53 that sounds like a fair analysis :) 09:27:07 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:27:07 dim: it also properly does if-modified-since, and with its in-memory cache, that is a real performance booster. 09:27:29 I think that's the default mode of operations with varnish 09:27:54 dim: i thought so until i tried and found it not to work well. 09:28:02 dim: but that has been years ago. 09:28:17 then you connect to the varnish control port and can adjust cache retention / pruning rules on the fly, like "prune this URL from the cache" when someone updated the content 09:28:36 Dunrong: http://netzhansa.blogspot.de/2008/07/building-load-resilient-web-servers.html 09:28:40 yeah varnish is pretty young still, so years ago might not match more recent experiences 09:28:47 oops, that was for dim 09:29:05 I'm already reading there, thanks :) 09:29:08 dim: why talk back to the cache if the cache can use conditional GET? 09:29:30 so that you can tell the cache to never prune the content as a default policy 09:29:30 Hans: How does that do invalidation? 09:29:40 and only have it talk to your server when invalidation really does happen 09:29:47 less trafic and instant pruning 09:30:01 Ah, you mean to refresh the cache by causing it to pull. 09:30:12 Zhivago: all requests get through to the backend, but the backend replies with not-modified when there has been no change. 09:30:19 yeah, there's an update on some object you know the URL of, tell the cache to refresh now 09:30:26 but i agree, explicit invalidation may be worthwhile as well. 09:30:38 hans: Not so useful when your maximum qps isn't so hot. 09:30:54 in practise I've been using that with a PGQ layer in between (PGQ is a PostgreSQL facility for queuing event processing, part of Skytools, which offers the Londiste replication system) 09:30:58 it worked for me. not speaking for anyone else 09:31:36 update -> prune event in the queue -> background process talks to the cache system 09:31:47 as H4ns says, it worked for me :) 09:32:40 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:32:44 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-iuwzlfneftewcqyn] has joined #lisp 09:32:44 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-iuwzlfneftewcqyn] has quit [Changing host] 09:32:44 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:33:40 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:34:24 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 09:40:18 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:43:27 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-pool6-0667.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:43:48 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:12 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:45:35 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-128-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:10 ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:49:59 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:52:22 mhm, hi everyone, anyone got an idea why this (displaying a win32 color picker) doesn't work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/130378 09:55:25 tcr1 [~tcr@84.235.97.123] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 09:55:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:09 <|3b|> ferada: might need to initialize the flags slot? 09:57:47 |3b|: thank you so much. 09:57:48 yes 09:57:52 argh 09:58:14 net4all [~net4all@bacon.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 09:58:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:00:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:00:40 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:01:16 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 10:02:32 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:04:27 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84.235.97.123] has left #lisp 10:06:38 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:52 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:16:05 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:16:40 devon [~devon@xyzzy.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:16:53 Good Day 10:17:06 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:18:34 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:39 wubino [~wub3@69.94.235.242] has joined #lisp 10:23:39 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:24:32 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 10:24:35 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:26:22 -!- gko [~user@42-75-48-53.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:30:17 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85833d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:30 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:31:28 sebajara [~user@cpc1-sgyl30-2-0-cust515.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:32:27 -!- sebajara [~user@cpc1-sgyl30-2-0-cust515.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 10:33:55 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:35:27 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 10:35:37 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:37:50 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f71698e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:05 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.132.103.158] has quit [Quit: paul0] 10:44:39 it seems that ccl is being clever with my pathnames and inserting some escape characters: #p"/Users/alama/scratch/GRA008+1.p.new" evaluates to #P"/Users/alama/scratch/GRA008+1\\.p.new" 10:47:08 in sbcl, the same path evaluates to a pathname in which those escape characters aren't printed 10:48:12 this is problematic because NAMESTRING returns different values 10:48:18 in 2 lisps 10:48:40 <|3b|> interpretation of namestrings is implementation specific anyway 10:49:05 ok 10:49:05 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:49:23 well, any idea how i might recover the unescaped form of the namestring in ccl? 10:50:05 sergey_borovkov [~user@85.234.37.158] has joined #lisp 10:51:34 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:52:50 <|3b|> ccl:native-translated-namestring might do what you want 10:53:07 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:11 <|3b|> http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.6.html 10:54:02 ah, thanks, i just hit upon that myself 10:55:12 yup, that works -- thanks! 10:57:44 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:58:10 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:58:18 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:04:36 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 11:05:46 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:06:08 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:11:38 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:13 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:17:11 ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has joined #lisp 11:18:18 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:38 -!- benny [~user@i577A18F6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:28:30 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:31:23 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129200073.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:32:38 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 11:33:06 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:34:37 I have a database of plists. Each slot in each plist contains a list. What is the best way to get the sum of the elements in a particular slot for for the whole database? For example, if the database contained only the following two records, the correct result for slot :a would be 6, and the correct answer for slot :b would be 3: '(:a ("a" "b" "c") :b (1 2)) '(:a ("d" "e" "f") :b (5)) 11:36:21 that doesn't sound like a sum 11:37:45 drl: how about using a hash-table during iteration, and do (incf (gethash table key 0) (count data))? 11:38:12 -!- Dunrong [~user@119.255.44.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:38:31 icrazyhack [horieyui@202.120.202.55] has joined #lisp 11:38:32 stassats, change sum to 'total number'. 11:38:36 billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-82-151.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:36 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-82-151.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:38:36 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:38:38 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:00 (reduce #'+ '((:a ("a" "b" "c") :b (1 2)) (:a ("d" "e" "f") :b (5))) :key (lambda (x) (length (getf x :a)))) => 6 11:42:56 -!- mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:42:57 flip214, I would have to redesign my whole program to do that, but I'll remember this for the future. 11:43:10 stassats, thanks! 11:46:05 Quickloading rfc2388 stops as there are non-ascii sequences in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/rfc2388-20120107-http/rfc2388.asd 11:46:10 stassats, that is exactly what I was looking for. Works perfectly. Thanks again! 11:46:14 Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 chr: change your encoding to utf? 11:47:08 LC_CTYPE is set to en_US.UTF-8 11:47:34 does your implementation know that? 11:48:43 Would that be sb-impl::*default-external_format* ? 11:49:11 you can check it, yes 11:49:49 sb-impl::*default-external-format* is set to :ANSI_X3.4-1968, so I guess not. 11:50:17 have you tried setting LANG to en_US.UTF-8? 11:53:11 stassats: No. Let's see... Nope, this seems not to affect sb-impl::*default-external-format*. 11:53:27 where do you start your lisp from? 11:54:02 $HOME 11:54:19 no, not directory, which environment 11:54:42 from shell, from emacs, emacs from menu in gnome or some other thing 11:54:55 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:55:17 Ah. ssh in emacs to a debian host. 11:55:57 drl: I meant using a hash-table _only_ for that element counting 11:56:00 environment is inherited from the top, so you need to set and export it in the parent process 11:56:26 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:56:40 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:57:38 flip214, Oh, I see. I'll study that some more. Thanks! 11:57:43 stassats: So, by "parent process", do you mean the sshd that took me in? 11:58:08 drl: if you need counts for _every_ key (:a, :b) at the same time, this would allow traversing the DB only once. 11:58:09 no, whichever parent process you want 11:58:39 as long is it the parent of sbcl 11:59:24 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:03 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:12 flip214, That could be very useful. Thanks! 12:02:01 drl: If you _know_ that there'll only be few different keys (<10) it might be faster to use a list or an array for the data during counting. 12:02:38 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 12:03:22 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-246-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:55 minion: tell me about clqr 12:03:55 stassats: direct your attention towards clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 12:05:54 flip214, thanks for taking the time to let me know this. I'm keeping notes. 12:06:17 you're too polite! 12:07:01 drl: the hash table is fine by itself, but has a higher constant cost than the simple, small array/list. and yes, what stassats said. just say "thanks" and be done ;) 12:07:22 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 12:08:11 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 12:08:51 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 12:13:10 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:19 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:15:42 stassats and flip214, OK, thanks! 12:17:08 mirTapir [vutral@thinkbase.srv.welterde.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:00 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has left #lisp 12:18:27 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:25:10 flashback [fb@lysergide.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:47 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:27:53 beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:30:29 -!- ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:32:09 -!- beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:33:41 beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:33:42 -!- wubino [~wub3@69.94.235.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:36:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:38:06 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:39:24 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:39:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:39:52 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:26 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@14-202-66-99.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:46:33 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:43 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-mpjbtzfllprsenvw] has joined #lisp 12:51:18 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 12:52:38 -!- sergey_borovkov [~user@85.234.37.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:22 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:54:45 ahh it's a wonderful day 13:03:58 urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-9-205.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:10 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.251.28] has joined #lisp 13:04:32 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.241.121.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:05:36 ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:06:02 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 13:06:37 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.118.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:06:56 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:21 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:22 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:07:22 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 13:14:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:49 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:14:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 -!- like-a-boss [~like-a-bo@ip-220-189.ists.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:15:44 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f71698e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:17:37 Kryztof [~user@158.223.59.95] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:18:27 (morning 'lisp) 13:18:45 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:19:43 UFO686 [~zhangyh@114.96.153.119] has joined #lisp 13:19:45 stassats: I dpkg-reconfigured locale, after that a fresh sbcl seemed to pick up on my environment settings and altered sb-impl::*default-external-format* 13:19:52 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.20.176] has joined #lisp 13:21:10 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:36 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.184.3.0] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:23:46 heya, j_king 13:25:24 sup Fade? 13:25:41 looking for a new project, doing paperwork on the old one. :) 13:25:44 you? 13:30:49 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:30:56 same old for now. just waiting to become a daddy. 13:31:28 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 13:33:11 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #lisp 13:34:03 well, that's big news. Congratulations! 13:38:53 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:15 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:42:31 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 13:42:50 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest78616 13:44:23 -!- Guest78616 is now known as X-Scale 13:44:35 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:44:54 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:45:39 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:48:46 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:47 -!- scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:48:47 scrimohsin [~scrimohsi@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 13:50:37 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:24 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit 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_schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:33 mprpic [mprpic@nat/redhat/x-rzpmyfmieglmaagx] has joined #lisp 15:01:24 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nqhsqxxijddjbozo] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 benny [~user@i577a7f88.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:23 horieyui [horieyui@202.120.202.55] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@202.120.202.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:06:23 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:07:58 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-252-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:08:02 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-139-126-200.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:11:16 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:12:29 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 15:13:10 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:42 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:16:23 amgs [~amgs@93.177.139.48] has joined #lisp 15:17:35 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:21:44 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:22:28 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ixkqszlgzqywhaii] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:22:43 ykm [~ykm@180.148.60.181] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.160.243.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:24:28 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-248.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:01 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:17 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 15:26:01 hey guys could anyone help, strange cl-who and format behavior http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11313795/cl-who-and-format 15:26:26 -!- mprpic [mprpic@nat/redhat/x-rzpmyfmieglmaagx] has left #lisp 15:27:58 amgs: see http://weitz.de/cl-who/#syntax under "If it is any other form it will be left as-is" 15:28:30 amgs: make that «format NIL» 15:28:32 -!- ykm [~ykm@180.148.60.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:31:02 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 15:33:00 yep it works now, thanks guys 15:35:46 ikki [~ikki@187.193.130.170] has joined #lisp 15:36:00 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 Has anyone written a Lisp syntax highlighter in Lisp? (what is lisp.paste.org using?) 15:38:30 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:34 A syntax highlighter in Lisp. 15:38:49 yes 15:38:56 I'm sure one exists 15:39:16 freiksenet was also working on a more semantically-driven highlighter for emacs. 15:39:45 colorize 15:40:12 http://www.cliki.net/colorize 15:40:37 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:40:45 seems to work reasonably. we used it in our irc robot for its code self display in the built in hunchentoot server. 15:40:51 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089C3E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:22 Nice. I'll have a look at it 15:41:28 (adding code browsing to Docbrowser) 15:42:48 -!- amgs [~amgs@93.177.139.48] has left #lisp 15:44:58 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:50:44 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50:54 karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 AeroNotix [~xeno@aeao69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:58 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:54:03 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 15:56:17 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:56:26 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:48 ice__ [~ice@123.123.255.232] has joined #lisp 15:58:01 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 15:58:37 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:39 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:01 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:59:18 -!- ice [~ice@222.130.131.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59:20 -!- jasox_ [~jasox@effic.me] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:59:47 jasox [~jasox@effic.me] has joined #lisp 16:00:16 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kojojkmpzqwxmqcl] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:00:17 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:52 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aeao69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:01:57 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pgyhkavvcgzbwdlb] has joined #lisp 16:04:15 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-128-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:07 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:54 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 16:06:54 ykm [~ykm@180.148.60.181] has joined #lisp 16:07:40 *Xach* wished for global apropos yesterday, trying to find a canned url-decode routine 16:07:43 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:52 -!- ykm [~ykm@180.148.60.181] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:10:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:10:55 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 an index with all exported symbols available in quicklisp's libraries would be nice :) 16:11:50 very much so 16:12:01 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:07 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yobucpodnqfvlyxa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:26 is there a way to give find-package or find a wildcard ? 16:13:23 Everyone's buying a shiny new paperback edition of PCL, right? ;-) 16:13:31 homie: no 16:14:00 gigamonkey: likely several for the office. :) 16:14:08 48 dollars! i will wait for the $5.99 bantam edition 16:14:22 sykopomp: loke: it was in emacs lisp 16:14:49 Xach: it's a whole $3.30 off. What a bargin! 16:14:58 (I hadn't looked to see what they were selling it for.) 16:14:58 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:15:12 I have another question w/r/t MAKE-BROADCAST-STREAM http://paste.lisp.org/+2SLR 16:15:59 gigamonkey: I actually like having a hardcover for PCL. 16:16:08 On Amazon.ca, the hardcover is $53.84, and the paperback is $59.80. 16:16:21 erk 16:16:21 Tuxedo: heh. 16:16:31 mon_key: it's only a type error if any stream *in the list* is not an output stream 16:16:34 maybe not today, then. :) 16:16:37 Well worth the premium if you're packing for an ocean voyage or a Moon shot. :) 16:16:43 mon_key: no stream in the empty list is not an output stream 16:16:54 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 Tuxedo: It's on Amazon already? 16:17:03 mon_key: (make-broadcast-stream) is a popular way to get a bitbucket a la /dev/null 16:17:25 Oh wow, they split it 16:17:27 Sure is. They list the paperback as having come out June 6th. 16:17:34 Paperback isn't listed as "another version" of the hardcover 16:17:47 Xach: that is what I'm using it for. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something in violation of the spec that might bite me in the ass later. 16:17:59 Part of that might have to do with the weird economic of printing: the reason there's a paperback edition is so they can do print-on-demand 16:18:03 http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Common-Lisp-Peter-Seibel/dp/1590592395/ and http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Common-Lisp-Peter-Seibel/dp/1430242906/ 16:18:14 But that may well be more expensive per copy than printing several thousand hardbacks. 16:18:28 So all you early adopters won! 16:18:41 Xach: Thanks for your help interpreting the spec 16:19:21 The shipping weight for the HC is listed as 2 kg, and for the paperback it's 1 kg. 16:19:22 So Amazon correctly associtates the Kindle edition with the hardcover, but fails to do that with the paperback. 16:19:25 (Heavy covers!) 16:19:39 gigamonkey: My PCL was hardback but has since become paperback by virtue of years of abuse! 16:19:52 mon_key: that's the way 16:20:52 I must confess that for day-to-day reference, I usually use the Web version. My hardcover copy languishes in another room. 16:22:06 hi 16:22:16 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:22:42 do we have a manual around for programming usb device drivers in lisp? 16:22:53 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:24:09 theos: No 16:24:25 Tuxedo: My hardcover stays open within arms length on my desk and is typically opened to page 281 because i can never remember the grammar for LOOP's using subclause 16:24:29 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129200073.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:14 Xach oh. i read on the following link that pjb_ was trying to do something like that. donno if he completed it or not. or maybe it was something different https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/2rHPo8Oml2g 16:25:24 flanfl_ [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:26:08 You might have to wait for him to write the book 16:27:04 :D 16:28:09 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:30:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:30:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:34:04 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.67.109] has joined #lisp 16:34:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:54 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-188-208.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:37:08 AeroNotix [~xeno@aeao69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.71] has joined #lisp 16:43:07 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:43:12 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 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17:10:55 AeroNotix [~xeno@aeao69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:11:41 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:12:23 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 17:13:31 -!- maxm- is now known as maxm 17:13:33 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.6] has joined #lisp 17:13:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.6] has quit [Changing host] 17:13:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:13:37 -!- zwick1 [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has left #lisp 17:13:38 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089C3E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:13:45 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 17:14:45 -!- ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:31 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 17:17:06 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 17:19:55 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:21:57 Is there some simple way to have (print-object) dump different information when printing to a hunchentoot-socket? 17:22:26 how would I specialize on the hunchentoot-stream? 17:22:33 use a special variable 17:22:47 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.200.61] has joined #lisp 17:22:49 (defvar *in-hunchentoot*) 17:23:29 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has left #lisp 17:24:28 stassats: and try to have that set in handlers? how would that help? logging into a file should write the "text" representation 17:24:43 hmmm, perhaps I'm on to the wrong idea 17:25:19 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.103.158] has joined #lisp 17:25:29 flip214: bind it. 17:25:57 It sounds like your requirements are more complicated though 17:26:02 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 would specializing on hunchentoot-stream be a bad idea? 17:27:52 yes 17:28:02 specializing on any stream in print-object is a bad idea 17:28:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-188-208.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds] 17:29:34 besides, there are usually no streams involved when using hunchentoot 17:34:44 -!- Kryztof [~user@158.223.59.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:35:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:35:11 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 17:35:27 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 17:38:04 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:02 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 17:39:06 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 17:41:00 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:42:07 Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:49 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@12.130.118.36] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:46:01 -!- ice__ [~ice@123.123.255.232] 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seconds] 17:56:03 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:57:39 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:58:13 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:58:48 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.67.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:56 sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:56 -!- sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:56 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 -!- winger__ [3a168768@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.22.135.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:23 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85833d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:05:16 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:05:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:49 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:10 I updated Quicklisp. Now's your chance to see if it has a bad SLIME! 18:06:21 bam 18:06:30 irpanech6 [~user@S0106000024ccea30.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:54 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85811c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-188-208.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:35 barry a. margolin? 18:22:50 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:06 stassats: did you try using CommonQt w/qt-4.8, including QtWebKit? 18:23:23 yes 18:23:32 Xach: seeing SLIME being updated made me happy 18:23:32 does it crash at exit? 18:23:44 just crashes, iirc 18:23:56 stassats: SBCL, CCL? 18:24:00 sbcl 18:24:39 madnificent: why? 18:24:40 k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.254] has joined #lisp 18:24:50 stassats: sbcl doesn't support foreign threads... AFAIK it does on Windows thanks to akovalenko's effort, but on Linux they're not supported. Qt creates some workers that invoke callbacks 18:25:33 well, it supports foreign threads, but not callbacks or signals from them 18:25:33 Xach: it's like receiving an unexpected gift. you don't know what's in there, but (given the current quality of quicklisp's libraries), you assume you'll like it. 18:26:18 *Xach* doesn't keep track of slime improvements as he's in too deep of a groove with existing functionality 18:27:20 stassats: with CCL, it all does work, but crashes at exit. I just want to say that I've managed to fix it (will push changes soon) -- I just disable all Smoke callback handling using a handler that is added to ccl:*lisp-cleanup-functions* 18:27:38 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 stassats: there's another problem of Qt complaining about C++ exceptions... This was harder to fix, as of now, I've only managed to invent a hack that replaces CCL::PREPARE-TO-QUIT so that it doesn't try to kill foreign threads. Perhaps should try to detach them instead upon exit 18:29:13 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wcwnsingfzoyyhnx] has joined #lisp 18:29:26 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:29:33 i encountered problems with threads even before 4.8, file dialog creates threads and crashes sbcl 18:30:08 stassats: yes, as of now SBCL is unfortunately almost unusable with CommonQt :( 18:30:23 well, unless you don't care about files 18:30:28 or webkit 18:30:36 which i actually don't 18:31:57 I wrote a headless web site testing app at work. Tried to do it using phantomjs first, but for some reason phantomjs appears to be losing HTTP requests when you create too many webkits and start 'clicking' on them simultaneously. Did it using CommonQt+CCL without much hassle except that exit problem 18:32:06 rpg [~rpg@70-100-86-40.br1.ara.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:18 well, don't exit then 18:32:57 it's a command line app that is supposed to be invoked from various scripts that are maintained by our admin 18:33:28 anyway, it's fixed now 18:33:29 call _exit? 18:33:46 that's unpretty 18:34:05 pixelbrei [~user@83.125.62.242] has joined #lisp 18:34:20 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:45 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:35:03 -!- kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:35:58 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.184.3.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:36:47 kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 18:37:00 -!- kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:38:53 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:54 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:39:06 kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:42 -!- kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:39:51 kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:34 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:37 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d85811c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:44 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:55 stassats, is it a signals issue? 18:49:19 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:49:33 callbacks, however they're implemented 18:51:49 if anyone is interested here is a pastebin of cl-bench on the raspberry pi -- i had to mod concat test as it bombed out otherwise and i think it didn't complete anyway but should give an idea of clisp on 700mhz armv6 with 256meg ram http://pastebin.com/WGHtqnTd 18:52:28 i have an idea, "extremely slow" 18:55:17 stassats: yes especially as i had to run 5 times as the concat test kept insisting on being run even after commenting out and regening the tests and well just because it felt like it -- chanded the val from 1000000 to 100 in the end 18:56:00 ukscone: could you compare with ecl? 18:56:10 guess lisp on a raspi is not really feasible but maybe on armv7 1,2ghz it might bee 18:56:25 at least you can run ccl on armv7 18:56:36 madnificent: i can try again, don't think ecl built properly but i can give it a go 18:57:02 ukscone: ah yes, that seems to happen often. i'm just curious though. 18:57:06 -!- zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-146-121.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:57:58 ok giving ecl a go, will probably crash but you never know 18:59:06 ukscone, can the pi run ccl? 18:59:16 i also have an ecafe netbook with an 800mhz imx.51 (armv7) that i can try too 18:59:16 armv6? no 18:59:19 ukscone, I would definitely use ccl over clisp, if the cpu is supported. 18:59:23 ccl is cml cl? 18:59:25 Fare: ISA issues. 18:59:30 ISA? 18:59:31 minion: ccl 18:59:32 ccl: CCL is the Clozure Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/ccl 18:59:43 like, ccl requires armv7 but it's only armv6 ? 18:59:48 clozure can't needs armv7 & clojure is slooooooooooooooooow 19:00:08 ok i'll try clozure then in a bit 19:00:16 ecl crashed 19:00:28 Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR 19:00:28 LOAD: Could not load file #P"/home/pi/cl-bench/files/math.fas" (Error: "/home/pi/cl-bench/files/math.fas: invalid ELF header") 19:00:28 Available restarts: 19:00:28 1. (RESTART-TOPLEVEL) Go back to Top-Level REPL. 19:00:28 Broken at SI:BYTECODES. [Evaluation of: (LOAD (COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME #P"files/math.olisp"))] 19:00:29 File: #P"/home/pi/cl-bench/do-execute-script.lisp" (Position #526) 19:00:29 >> 19:00:37 thought it might 19:00:38 if ccl requires armv7, you'll have to hack the compiler to support armv6 19:00:50 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:09 ccl is about 10 times slower for my taske than desktop, on my 1.5 GHz phone's armv7 cpu 19:01:13 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:01:18 It uses some FPy instructions that aren't available everywhere. I can't remember the details because ARM seems to be a mess. 19:01:40 or is it 1.2 GHz 19:02:10 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:04:05 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129200073.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 19:07:15 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 oh - does the pi have a fpu at all? 19:07:58 ukscone: too bad 19:08:54 ukscone: did you delete clisp's fasls? 19:09:32 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:11:13 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:42 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:42 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:17:25 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:19:52 stassats: probably not 19:20:00 perhaps i should :) 19:20:27 running again 19:21:06 same 19:21:17 Condition of type: FILE-ERROR 19:21:17 Filesystem error with pathname #P"/home/pi/cl-bench/files/arrays.fas". 19:21:17 Either 19:21:17 1) the file does not exist, or 19:21:17 2) we are not allowed to access the file, or 19:21:17 3) the pathname points to a broken symbolic link. 19:21:17 Available restarts: 19:21:18 1. (RESTART-TOPLEVEL) Go back to Top-Level REPL. 19:21:18 Broken at SI:BYTECODES. [Evaluation of: (LOAD (COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME #P"files/arrays.olisp"))] 19:21:19 File: #P"/home/pi/cl-bench/do-execute-script.lisp" (Position #95) 19:21:19 >> 19:21:26 well not same but error 19:21:34 yes raspi has vfp2 19:21:49 so, you need to compile it first 19:24:19 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:53 ukscone, if you have time, the #ccl guys might tell you where to hack to get ccl running on armv6 19:26:09 cc1? gcc? 19:26:21 your font sucks 19:26:38 AhsanShahbaz [~AhsanShah@58-27-152-85.wateen.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:45 -!- AhsanShahbaz [~AhsanShah@58-27-152-85.wateen.net] has left #lisp 19:27:09 stassats: font? 19:27:12 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:18 why isn't there a +1 on irc comments? 19:27:39 net4all: charlie charlie lima 19:27:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:52 Xach: one ima? what's that? 19:27:59 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:11 Xach: thx 19:28:24 stassats: a thousand milliimas 19:28:38 CCL the Lisp formerly known as OpenMCL 19:30:57 Fare: i'd really like to get SBCL working on arm for H4ns :) if not on the raspi at least on a decent dual core arm. on a raspi i think it'll be too slow for anything but editing/deving 19:31:58 but i'll seee what i can get running and how, will stick to common lisp family though -- newlisp is nice for non-graphic stuff though 19:32:27 ukscone, probably less work getting CCL running. 19:32:49 also, if you're willing to write a new backend, a LLVM backend will probably give you more bang for your buck 19:33:10 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 19:33:24 ukscone, do you know that people used to use Lisp Machines that were probably slower than CLISP on the pi? 19:34:34 rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 all this new terminology :) i've been using BASIC & C again for the last few years so everything else is real rusty -- i had a look at clozure last night and saw it said it needed some armv7 bits -- profiles and stuff i'll read up on what exactly they are 19:35:03 Fare: yeah, and i've been messing with DtCyber the last few days and they were slooooooooooooow 19:35:18 what are DtCyber ? 19:35:39 DtCyber is a CDC Cyber 1XX/6600 emulator 19:35:44 oh 19:36:04 H4ns knows all about them or at least knows OF them 19:39:41 ok it was worth a shot :) the ccl arm precompiled binary segfaults 19:39:51 on armv6? 19:40:09 -!- kava [~patrick@cpe-173-172-74-142.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:24 yup 19:40:32 just thought i'd try as you never know 19:41:24 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: hungry] 19:41:54 well, it won't auto-magically work if it requires armv7 19:42:04 in order of "importance" in which order would you say it would be preferable to have arm versions of lisp 19:42:21 stassats: was hoping maybe they lied and had built for generic arm 19:42:43 there's no plans to support anything lower than armv7 19:42:52 I think it needs fp support that is only in arm7 19:42:57 i've seen it happen especially if they just use gcc with no -mcpu and built on native 19:43:36 well, that's not how lisp compilers work 19:45:58 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:56 let [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:50:00 xbigdanx [~dmbrookin@pool-108-35-110-190.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:30 -!- let [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 19:51:18 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:39 alvis```` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-100.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:28 -!- alvis``` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:55:48 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 19:58:36 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:58:41 yup needs arm ver >= 7 to build clozure 19:58:57 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 19:59:00 oh well, guess sbcl is the one to target to port then 19:59:10 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:43 sbcl doesn't require anything to build on arm, because it's not ported 19:59:57 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:04 yes i know, i had a look at it a few days ago 20:00:29 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 20:00:34 why do you need lisp on armv6? 20:00:44 can't see anything that would stop it from working though if the right files are written 20:00:54 stassats: because that's what he's got with the raspberry pi! 20:01:00 because i like ARM, most of my devices are arm & well arm is the future :) 20:01:13 pkhuong: i don't know, why not use c or python 20:01:18 or asm, or whatever your fancy 20:01:39 stassats: that holds for all platforms 20:01:42 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.130.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:01:45 stassats: i do use them but well why not lisp? 20:01:58 Guthur: because there's no good lisp for arm 20:02:03 Guthur: it doesn't 20:02:04 especially as it'll get my lisp back up to speed 20:02:52 they do say arm is coming to the desktop (& server) markets so wouldn't a lisp interpreter/compiler be nice to have? 20:03:01 stassats: well someone should create one then, nothing specific about ARM arch that excludes Lisp afaict 20:03:20 and for added points it'll keep me off the streets and out of trouble 20:04:07 i was actually surprised that really the only lisp that is available and stable on arm is newlisp i would have thought it'd have been done years ago 20:06:08 has there been no motivation to get SBCL on ARM 20:06:19 I don't own any ARM devices 20:06:21 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:06:23 Guthur: nyef had for a while, but paying jobs took precedence. 20:06:30 I did think about getting a raspberry pi and having a crack at it 20:06:40 I might still do at some point (but please go ahead and make me not have to) 20:06:45 ARM asm is a bit crufty, frankly. I have enough of x86 in my brain ;) 20:06:46 Kryztof: no phone? 20:06:58 cmm: a phone phone ;) 20:07:21 pkhuong: aren't those Arm-based too? 20:07:40 I don't know, mine runs on californian fairy dust. 20:08:01 -!- xbigdanx [~dmbrookin@pool-108-35-110-190.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:08:16 no phone is a decent approximation to my state 20:08:18 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-122-218.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:18 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-122-218.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 20:08:18 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 I have a phone, which is used for... phone calls 20:08:52 if it is an ARM device, then I apologise, but honestly I wouldn't know how to treat it as a computer rather than a thing that makes phone calls 20:08:53 yeah, other people use them as pacifiers 20:09:11 fair enough :) 20:10:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10:43 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:11:07 frankly since I can't even type punctuation on it without it replacing what I type with stupid smiley faces, I don't hold out much hope of being able to type "(* 2 3)" into it :) 20:11:50 ukscone: You can always safely ignore SBCL and just run CCL on ARM. 20:11:54 Oh, T9 lisp. I'm afraid it must be done now, if only for the pun value. 20:12:08 ChibaPet: CCL doesn't run on ukscone's ARM. 20:12:24 Oh. (Reading more scrollback. I hadn't seen that.) 20:12:30 ChibaPet: i have armv6 not v7 20:13:13 v6 is pretty much EOL though so not that bad other than it'd have been nice to have 20:13:24 Ah, that. 20:13:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:13:54 i have armv7 devices but mostly v5 & v6's 20:14:21 e.g. got 250 zipit z2's which are armv5 20:14:57 well 250+17 20:15:12 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.4] has joined #lisp 20:16:41 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129200073.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:49 pkhuong: yeah, work always gets in the way of the fun hacks 20:18:19 I haven't got the compiler-fu to attempt it myself unfortunately 20:18:28 -!- pixelbrei [~user@83.125.62.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:08 at this moment I'm more tempted to implement a Warren Abstract Machine and Prolog in CL 20:19:50 though if the maintainer of paiprolog fixes (?- (retract (fact ?x))) that temptation will subside 20:20:06 why don't you fix it? 20:20:15 Virex [~sabayonus@dsl-213-233-192-219.solcon.nl] has joined #lisp 20:20:23 stassats: I knew that was coming, hehe 20:20:24 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129200073.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 20:20:39 I have considered it and yes it probably will be easier 20:21:10 I'll have to learn about the implementation anyway though; not so bad as I have a copy of PAIP to hand 20:22:23 though a really good performant WAM implementation would be quite neat 20:22:37 -!- nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p57AD79A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:07 I was wondering if one of you could help me with the following: I noticed that most of the time, when writing classes, the slot definition looks like this: (y :initarg :y :initform 0 :accessor get-y). I'm trying to write a macro to reduce this to (genslot y). The obvious problem now is that defclass tries destructing the macro call... 20:23:10 Free of course, I think LispWorks KnowledgeWorks has one 20:23:15 Would there be a way around that? 20:23:28 -!- rpg [~rpg@70-100-86-40.br1.ara.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:23:40 ukscone, go talk to the #ccl guys about armv6 20:23:44 Virex: hehe, everyone goes through wanting to write that 20:23:58 figured as much 20:24:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 Virex: the way around is to not want it 20:24:28 Virex: there are plenty of define-class, defstruct-class, etc., forms in the wild 20:24:38 please take one, and if it isn't enough, make it better 20:24:49 or just use defclass, please 20:24:56 stassats, why? 20:25:09 OK, guess I wasn't missing something obvious then XD 20:25:17 because it is well document? 20:25:22 Fare: because i don't want to deal with just one operator 20:25:27 s/don't// 20:25:38 and if you don't like typing, teach your editor to type instead 20:25:42 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:13 redshank does it; this is deja-vu 20:26:18 Heh, I thought that was the domain of functions and macros? 20:26:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/130389 20:27:10 i don't like the way redshank does it 20:27:53 Virex: what you looking for is generally known a definer library, first one was cl-def, hu.dwim guys have their own, there is also demacs (not in quicklisp, compatible with cl-def syntax) 20:28:28 i'm using demacs personally, its pretty nice except for unfortunate choice of name 20:28:42 stassats, you sound like a java programmer 20:28:51 what next, have your editor fill out templates for you? 20:29:10 Any good sources on how to write a definer library? I mean, I could use one, but I also want to know what to do when I run in a situation that the library doesn't cover 20:29:20 Fare: oh, low blow, hehe 20:29:36 Virex: read the source of a generally well accepted library? 20:29:46 Virex: well you look at existing one.. demacs is clos based, so you can make your own definers by adding methods to it 20:29:48 Virex, please do NOT write yet another one -- unless you have a good reason to argue that it's better than ALL the existing ones together. 20:30:04 I've gotten into the habit of using defstruct a lot precisely because of its autogen facilities for objects that just need convenient data access and have no real external API associated with them. 20:30:11 (or anything that involves extension) 20:30:18 Fare: Or write it for yourself, but use a battle-hardened one in production 20:30:29 I'm not planning on writing one, I just want to know how they work 20:30:35 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 20:30:44 But I'll look into the code of demacs 20:30:48 Virex: generally they are macros, if you don't know how macros work start there.. 20:30:51 Virex: best to read an existing implementation, imo 20:30:52 yeah, if what you're interested in is learning to write one, do it. But for real code that's gonna see the world, please use a real, maintained, library 20:30:53 do you know how macros work? 20:31:09 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:31:31 Sure, as long as you don't start throwing 6-levels deep of nested backquotes at me 20:32:16 Fare: so, do you use APL? 20:32:34 Virex: that would be a hairy macro by anyones standards 20:33:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:55 defclass* is one the biggest pet peeves of mine, "which flavor is this one?" "does it create accessors? does it prefix them with the name of the class?" "i want it to make a reader only, what option is that?" 20:34:12 Virex: if so they work very simply.. Demacs is a single macro called def, general form is (def ( ) ).. It looks at , makes a definer out of it (ie if is class, it does (make-instance 'class-definer), then calls (expand-definer ).. 20:36:06 defclass one is the most useful, ie (def (class nc) ((a) (b))) automatically does: (a :initarg :a :accessor a-of).. "nca" in addition exports accessor functions.. You can customize the "-of" part by giving it a format control string.. You can use :initarg or :accessor in some slots, and that would override default 20:36:35 ick 20:36:38 *stassats* shivers 20:36:48 stassats: do you hate defstruct? 20:37:00 Well, at least the syntax is consistent... 20:37:11 sykopomp: yes, i dislike it 20:38:01 but i like structures 20:38:41 but the CLOS design of it is not well thought out, as its kind of ackward to write wrappers. For example I want to pass ever function through a "muncher", and I had to shadow "function-definer" for it in my package. IMHO better design is specializing on *package*, so each package can add customizations 20:39:10 Anyway, that's a bit far from what I was originally trying to do, which was to force evaluation of a macro inside a call to defclass before defclass tries to interpret it as a slot definition 20:39:44 altho SBCL sometimes goes crazy with EQL specializes on *package* leaving references packages that were there at compile time, in unrelated .FASL files that don't reference them in any way 20:40:38 stassats, no I don't use APL - why? 20:40:38 Virex: you can't generally do it with macros life defclass, that don't evaluate stuff inside. 20:40:55 Fare: because it makes you type less 20:40:55 I guessed as much 20:41:05 maxm: or maybe it's just that you're not looking for EQL specialisation. 20:41:11 stassats, I like the idea of destruct-class -- the documented syntax of defstruct, the semantics of defclass. 20:41:37 the documented syntax of defstruct is sometimes something only a mother could love. 20:41:42 stassats, it's not about typing less -- it's about not having to maintain the boilerplate when you update your macros. 20:41:43 pkhuong: whats the right way to do it? I was thinking of switching to specializing on (intern (package-name *package*) :keyword) 20:41:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:54 So, there's no real way to force macros to be evaluated in a certain order? 20:42:12 Virex: plenty of ways, including writing your own macroexpander 20:42:24 Virex: what are you trying to do? 20:42:25 pkhuong: in my defence I stole EQL specializing on your own package recepie from somewhere, I think asdf.. So if its bad, they did it first :-) 20:42:32 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:42:45 Virex: asdf-finalizers might be just what you want 20:42:49 Trying to stick a wrench in the innards of defmacro apparently :P 20:42:50 I have a eval-at-toplevel 20:43:10 which does the right thing for me when someone uses list-of in a deftype 20:43:37 Fare: defstruct is at least singular and standard 20:44:13 well if one "definer" library becomes well accepted it will be standard too. 20:44:15 and there's no boilerplate in defclass 20:44:29 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:44:30 stassats, there's boilerplate in USING defclass 20:44:36 oh cmon stassats 20:44:36 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:49 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:40 Fare: I've been playing with a defprotocol macro, whose sole purpose is, in fact, to do the genfun generation (and does that in a fairly explicit way). I've been trying to think of ways of using protocol objects to help guide accessor definitions in a defclass wrapper. 20:46:01 it has a concise and clear interface which describes what's exactly being done, i don't see any boilerplate 20:46:18 to keep all the magical genfun + method definition out of the defclass, but still be concise about the definitions themselves (and also be explicit about where the protocols are) 20:46:26 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-9-205.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:27 i create new slots with the help of my editor, and i can easily change things with my editor 20:46:34 there is no boilerplate in unlambda. it has a clear interface which describes what's exactly being done. 20:46:45 repeating same thing 4 times is not my idea of fun (this-here-slot :initarg :this-here-slot :reader get-this-here-slot :writer set-this-here-slot :accessor this-here-slot-of) 20:46:56 The boilerplate comes from the fact that you usually want to define slots according to a certain template 20:47:03 i suppose you write code directly in binary, because it's documented and there is no boilerplate in it? 20:47:04 yeah, let's prove the point using extremities 20:47:16 let's prove the point that your argument is invalid 20:47:18 but you have to specify the template at every slot 20:47:22 stassats: (defclass foo ((bar :initarg :bar :accessor foo-bar))) is boilerplatey when your code starts adhering relatively strictly to those conventions. 20:47:41 the boilerplate is on the OTHER SIDE of the equation -- in people who use the insufficiently abstract notation. 20:47:46 stassats: in the general case, defclass is not boilerplatey, but we have macros so we can abstract away repetitive patterns. 20:48:32 *maxm* raises an extremity 20:49:01 the question then becomes, -how- do we want to abstract it away? I don't like defclass* because it's too magical and opinionated about what the 'right' pattern is, and it loses the very useful API information about what is meant to be accessed how that you have with full, explicit DEFCLASS definitions. 20:49:55 Ideally you should be able to define templates for slots, since there are about 3 or 4 templates you're using in a program 20:50:08 sykopomp: yes, defclass have repetitions, but i don't see how such repetition is bad 20:50:09 (this-here-slot :initarg t :reader t :writer t :accessor t) 20:50:15 *Fare* wants macros for non-expression points, syntax/parse style 20:50:16 default to the standard template name on t? 20:50:21 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 Virex: thats why I use demacs, it already has that built-in 20:50:29 i don't think the "verbosity" of defclass is an actual "problem" 20:51:52 i mean that going through the trouble of writing a macro is probably more work and doesn't get you any new functionality that makes your program intrinsically better. 20:52:48 other than obfuscating some definitions. 20:53:31 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 20:53:46 maxm: I'm looking at demacs right now. I would've prefered an option that works with defclass itself, but I can't have everything :) 20:54:15 j_king: Guess you're right, but if I see the same code pop up at 10 different points, I always feel like I'm doing something wrong 20:54:28 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:54:38 Virex: generally its bad idea to override CL package standard keywords, since people seeing (defclass) probably expect default behavour 20:55:02 and why i see defclass*, i reach for my revolver 20:56:14 you can shadow defclass in your package, and add (defmacro defclass (name &body rest) `(def (class nc) ,name ,@rest) 20:56:24 -!- irpanech6 [~user@S0106000024ccea30.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:57:03 but as I've said it is likely to confuse people reading your code 20:57:12 True 20:57:37 I don't see why. "Oh, this is using some custom macro. *reads macro documentation*. Oh, okay." 20:57:49 I tend to think of definitions as being explicit. I want to know about the value types, accessors, etc when I read the class definition without having to assume anything might be implied. 20:57:51 Problem is that it isn't apparent that the macro is custom 20:58:10 well yeah, if it's kept to defclass* or whatever. Shadowing is weird 20:58:13 missed that 20:58:15 Phoodus: 30 minutes, in another library, "oh, this is using some custom macro, i wonder whether it's the same" 20:58:57 that's if you need to read code, not docs, i.e. the author has failed ;) 20:59:04 It's not the worst thing to make a macro for defining class slots with a more terse syntax, I just don't see how that's very helpful. :) 20:59:22 Phoodus: and with defclass, i don't need to read any documentation 20:59:23 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-246-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:59:55 Phoodus: if you need docs, the author has failed in writing clear code 21:00:05 Pretty sure that's backwards 21:00:10 brain can generally keep 7 things at a time in short term memory.. By the time I had finished typing boiler plate, I forgot wtf am I adding the slot for 21:00:14 as code never says "why" 21:01:02 besides, you can't fix bugs by looking at documentation 21:01:06 j_king: Originally I was trying to do the following: (defclass test () ((with-accessor x) (with-reader y) (without-initarg z))), which would reduce the stuff needed to specify a slot to the things that deviate from default. On second thought, that default may not be apparent to everyone... 21:01:07 stassats: API documentation is important. I agree with you wrt internal docs, though. :) 21:01:23 stassats: in the bug case we can both agree the author has failed ;) 21:01:42 |SLB| [~slabua@host55-130-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:02:01 with the best libraries, library: is enough for documentation 21:02:16 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:02:27 -!- |SLB| is now known as [SLB] 21:02:36 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host55-130-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 21:02:36 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:03:10 Virex: I don't really bother with that sort of stuff. I'd rather be working on something that gets my project to the next step rather than fiddling with making my class definitions shorter. 21:03:51 also regarding bugs, good docs will show if the bug situation is intended, forbidden, or an edge case not designed for 21:04:01 defclass is perhaps more verbose than in blub languages and maybe less verbose than others.. but it's not your most painful problem 21:04:44 There are no blub languages. There are only blub programmers. 21:05:19 j_king: I originally thought that it'd be 15 minutes work. Then I found out that won't work, which got me curious if there would be a way around those limitations. Frankly, I could care less about the macro itself 21:05:31 *j_king* nods. 21:05:35 also, you don't have to write a macro 21:05:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:44 you can do everything with MOP 21:05:55 j_king: depends on amount of classes. I pretty much use classes for everything, since iterative development and ability to ad-hoc add/remove/change slots is more important then anything else. Since I have a class for pretty much every trivial thing (ie segment of a line in a chart), it would be really tiring to add/remove slots, if I had to type accessors and initargs every time 21:05:58 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 21:06:07 -!- Archenoth [~user@96.51.223.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:21 maxm: i don't have to type them 21:06:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:35 I'm not quite THAT good with lisp yet and it doesn't solve the original problem (trying to shoehorn a macro inside a desctructuring macro), which is more interesting 21:06:36 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:06:40 i use a superior text editor, which automates repetitive tasks for me 21:07:25 stassats: Wait, I thought you used Emacs. What do you use? 21:07:33 Emacs 21:07:38 called it 21:07:41 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 21:08:02 Archenoth [~user@96.51.223.95] has joined #lisp 21:08:20 -!- karbak [~kar@ip67-152-0-116.z0-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:28 different strokes for different folks. Sometimes I stare at the class, thinking, then start typing, then undo, then start typing again etc..It aids in the thinking, so for me nothing beats just having plain (slot-a) (slot-b). 21:09:12 it'll have more time to replace all the references to those slots 21:09:20 sadly, Java programmers have it better 21:10:38 *maxm* finds renames not that bad.. I just grep **/*.lisp, then use wgrep, C-x C-p, and %s/blah/renamed-blah/ right there in grep buffer, and C-x C-s 21:11:03 ikki [~ikki@187.193.130.170] has joined #lisp 21:11:08 and it replaces everything... 21:12:59 well you use the right regexp to replace only stuff you need 21:13:15 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:34 generally with uniform syntax, ie accessors are all slot-name-of its easy to come up with right regexp 21:13:52 regexps can't distinguish between variable names and slot accessors 21:14:15 and slot accessors of this class with slot accessors of a different class 21:15:07 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 Virex, what do you mean "trying to shoehorn a macro inside a desctructuring macro" ? 21:17:09 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 21:17:15 Well, in the case of defclass, the slot specifiers themselves can not be macros, because said macro would never get expanded, it is interpreted as a slot definition. 21:17:50 donno, I did lots of java, and generally found refactoring using Eclipse to be ackward. Yes renaming single slot and it replaces all references is magical, but it does not scale. Ie try renaming slot if 10 different classes in the uniform manner, by the time you did 1st 3, you wish you were in emacs 21:17:54 I think that's a problem with any sort of macro that picks it's arguments apart, no? 21:18:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:18:59 no, it just doesn't evaluate things it doesn't need to evaluate 21:19:36 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-207-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:05 So, the question becomes, how to tell the system that it's wrong? :P 21:20:06 Virex: generally yes. You get around it by writing a wrapper macro, to pick stuff apart and inject things before the one you trying to extend.. 21:20:14 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 21:20:20 Virex: same name problem is easily solved by shadowing 21:20:24 Virex: you just tell yourself that what you want is wrong 21:20:33 Lol, good point 21:20:50 And yeah, wrapper macros are probably the best way 21:21:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:21:37 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:29 rpg [~rpg@70-100-86-40.br1.ara.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:40 -!- rpg [~rpg@70-100-86-40.br1.ara.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:26:25 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable151.155-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:29:03 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 21:30:55 Oladon_work [~Oladon@np34.co.returnpath.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:46 Something of a noob to CLOS, and trying to use it with cl-json... I can't seem to figure out how to get a list of the slots in the object I have. Googling turned up "get-slots", but more googling (and REPL testing) disproved that thought... any ideas? 21:32:58 minion: closer-mop 21:32:59 closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 21:33:05 c2mop:class-slots 21:33:30 *Oladon_work* tries that 21:34:10 stassats: is there a solution where I don't have to use another package? 21:34:17 no 21:34:26 Interesting. 21:34:28 are you afraid of packages? 21:34:31 Heh, no. 21:34:31 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:35:25 Oladon_work: closer-mop is a pretty much a defacto standard route to using the MOP 21:36:04 sohail [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:05 -!- sohail [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:36:05 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:36:13 Guthur: Ah, gotcha. Thanks. 21:36:36 Hmm... it doesn't seem to like the fact that cl-json is using a fluid class 21:37:10 When calling # with arguments (#<# #x000335CA1220>), no method is applicable. 21:37:20 sohail1 [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:21 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:37:21 sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:37:46 a fluid class? what kind if chicanery is that? 21:37:55 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:04 I'm not sure. I'm just a little noob trying to make my way... ;) 21:38:09 Virex: you might be interested in syntax/parse from Racket. 21:38:10 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:15 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 21:38:31 stassats: I'm using (json:with-decoder-simple-clos-semantics (json:decode-json-from-string "{\"bar\":true,\"baz\":{\"foo\":\"g\"}, \"FOO\" : { \"A\" : [5,6], \"B\" : [7,8], \"C\" : [9,10] }}")) 21:38:40 -!- Virex [~sabayonus@dsl-213-233-192-219.solcon.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:52 Oladon_work: use lisppaste 21:39:01 it's easier to read 21:39:11 Guthur: it's one line anyway 21:39:11 and annotations can be added 21:39:24 That's all there is. 21:39:41 It parses the json string into a clos object 21:40:03 Oladon_work: yeah it wasn't too offensive, it was more for future reference; thought it would still be easier to read 21:40:20 seems to work fine 21:40:21 Guthur: nods, for more than one line I use pastie 21:40:22 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:37 stassats: that line works fine... now I need a way to get the slots 21:40:49 well, getting slots works fine, i meant 21:41:00 *Oladon_work* ponders 21:41:10 doesn't work for me. Could you tell me what you're doing? :) 21:41:23 no, you tell me! 21:41:28 heh 21:42:04 Stuck a (c2mop:class-slots x) around the whole thing, where x is the above paste... 21:42:19 well, do you see class there? 21:42:27 in the name 21:42:29 it needs a class 21:42:41 (c2mop:class-slots (class-of x)) 21:43:08 *Oladon_work* boggles 21:43:19 Whoa. 21:43:21 It's magical. 21:44:13 I think I understand... so to try to verbalize what I've learned... the class-of is meta-izing the fluid class and constructing a thing to give back to class-slots, so that class-slots can then go "here you go"? 21:44:28 what? 21:44:32 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aeao69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 21:44:34 Heh 21:44:44 Oladon_work: it gets the class of the object 21:45:01 Guthur: right, but if it's a fluid class then its class is... undefined, right? I mean, isn't that what a fluid class /is/? 21:45:03 you had an object not a class 21:45:19 how do I move up in hierachy in slimes inspector? 21:45:23 fluid is just some cl-json thing 21:45:26 gensym: l 21:45:28 Guthur: oh 21:45:41 Guthur: I thought it was a CLOS thing for "class that isn't actually defined until you use it" 21:45:43 stassats: thanks 21:46:44 Guthur, stassats: thank you for your help. I have learned much, but have much to learn. :) 21:47:14 Oladon_work: not a bother, enjoy 21:48:24 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:50:48 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:52:28 Is there a _canned_ function either in CL or a common library for shifting every character in a string to the left by one and setting the original 0th most character to become the last character of of the string e.g.: (maybe-existing-function "Astring") => "stringA" ? 21:53:03 mon_key: why not just write one? 21:54:40 Oladon_work: why not indeed. Because if there is something in alexandria or some such it is prob. smarter and more efficient and I'd like to know about it for future reference. 21:54:59 *Oladon_work* boggles 21:55:00 why would anybody need such a function? 21:55:07 That's what I was just thinking. 21:56:03 stassats: I'm dumping a plist to a plaintext and to a lispy file - the plaintext would benefit from having the keyworks formatted in a colon-suffixed postion. 21:56:26 keyworks/keywords 21:56:58 (format t "~a:" :astring) => ASTRING: 21:57:12 but :astring seems fine to me as it is 21:57:18 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 21:58:05 stassats: thanks, i figured it was an obv. solution (: 21:58:24 mon_key: a lot of times, it's much better to say what you want to do and ask how, instead of asking for some obscure solution 21:58:40 Oladon_work: why are you lecturing me? 21:58:59 mon_key: In hope that you may be able to find help faster in the future. 21:59:18 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 21:59:27 or better, cease inventing weird problems 22:00:52 stassats: FWIW i _like_ seeing colon prefixed keywords but i can assure you that the consumer of the plaintext would much rather foo: than :foo 22:01:14 maybe you need to lecture the consumer some 22:01:19 mon_key: maybe try any json serializer (: 22:01:37 stassats: She might divorce me! 22:02:43 maybe you don't need a wife who doesn't grok keyword symbols 22:03:46 no her rationale/use-cases for not having them are valid 22:06:05 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:12:41 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:06 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:24 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-188-208.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:06 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129200073.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:40:32 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:38 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:56 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 22:42:00 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:44:29 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:07 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:47:45 stassats: (format t "~a:" :astring) => ASTRING: or Astring: or astring: depending on the *print-case*. 22:50:34 Sorella [~quildreen@189-12-73-5.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:50:35 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@189-12-73-5.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:50:35 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:51:29 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wcwnsingfzoyyhnx] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:52:55 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