00:01:15 -!- Stumilowy [1f3d81fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.61.129.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:05:10 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Suthe] 00:17:30 -!- tcr [~tcr@84.235.97.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:53 ahh it's a wonderful day 00:21:08 -!- Guthur` [~user@host86-148-164-73.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:12 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:37 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:31:03 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 00:35:00 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:35:12 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:35:56 -!- mafs [~michael@unaffiliated/maikeru/x-7708887] has 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[~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 02:18:00 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 02:18:18 as soon as I set a namespace (use (in-package :foo)) parenscript seems to fail recognize primitives like defun and translates them to foo_defun(...) 02:18:37 H4ns: you might find this interesting although it can't emu RUB afaik :( https://twitter.com/ukscone/status/219615548600877056/photo/1 02:19:04 Maybe you aren't using defun, but foo:defun? 02:20:21 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:35 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:25:23 Zhivago: ah I see 02:27:50 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-36-227.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:30:19 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 02:33:33 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Quit: ] 02:34:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by 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-!- meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 05:15:02 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 05:20:49 I like that the "Lisp Hackers" interviewees are unanimous in our reluctance to describe our workflow and give productivity tips to the rest of the world 05:23:10 Kryztof: apart from "have a repl open all the time"? :) 05:26:31 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:27:39 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:38 -!- tees is now known as elliottcable 05:38:54 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-36-227.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:41:33 chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:41:34 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 05:41:34 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 05:42:19 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] 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[oosool3@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 06:34:02 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.44.52] has joined #lisp 06:35:44 DDR_ [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:47 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:37:01 -!- DDR_ is now known as DDR 06:37:08 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 06:37:36 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:40:39 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:42:00 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:42:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:42:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:43:24 Kryztof: the little secret is that our productivity is abysmal, we're still using the same tools as 30 or 40 years ago. 06:44:07 There's just a little help coming from faster processors, bigger memories, and the web, but otherwise nothing much has changed. 06:44:54 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:45:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:05 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:47:56 also, "lisp is not my day job", "I mostly use Python/Matlab/R" 06:48:09 maybe the wrong people are getting interviewed 06:48:28 or maybe I've finally made it into the "professor" work demographic ;-) 06:48:37 I've wanted to share my "story" regarding that stuff, because it is my day job and whatnot. 06:48:42 Well, most "hackers" don't hack in their day jobs. 06:49:10 They just do java or php like everybody else :-( 06:49:18 wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:55 nha [~prefect@f052064183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:49 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-197-27.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:57:30 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:56 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:58:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:58:40 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:58:48 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 07:01:45 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:02:16 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:07:16 -!- tcr [~tcr@46.184.255.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:07:51 -!- setmeaway [oosool3@118.45.149.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:09:21 pjb: does C count as hacking? 07:12:04 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15:28 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:15:51 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:17:01 pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has joined #lisp 07:21:12 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:23:30 -!- scrimohsin [~as97bg11@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 07:28:46 tcr [~tcr@46.42.91.238] has joined #lisp 07:29:43 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.200.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:14 Anyone else done the whole C++ thing? 07:30:45 And wondered if they would have been more productive just doing procedural stuff instead of trying to do the 'proper' OOP thing? 07:30:48 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:31:18 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.206] has joined #lisp 07:32:27 that's the main reason why I can't care about OOP programming languages, there's no proper OOP thing that I can see, you need OOP as a tool not as a philosophy 07:33:37 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:14 sylecn [~sylecn@180.120.252.120] has joined #lisp 07:35:20 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-6-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:28 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-6-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:35:28 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:37:30 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:23 could someone told me how to invoke a function with this kind of keyword parameter: &key ((short very-long-var-name) 'init-value short-set-p)? example at http://paste.lisp.org/+2SL7 07:41:17 ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has joined #lisp 07:41:49 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:41:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:42:23 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:44:07 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-149-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:44:43 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:45:32 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 07:45:33 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:12 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-149-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:28 dim: whats your day job language? 07:46:30 (s) 07:47:23 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 07:49:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:51:10 flip214 [~marek@217.196.73.213] has joined #lisp 07:51:10 -!- flip214 [~marek@217.196.73.213] has quit [Changing host] 07:51:10 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:51:12 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 07:51:30 -!- nha [~prefect@f052064183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Stay hungry, stay foolish!] 07:52:52 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:23 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 07:57:57 scrimohsin [~as97bg11@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 07:57:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:58:37 sylecn: Never seen that before! I believe I've found an answer: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html 07:58:41 Search for the word "wager". 08:01:12 SHUPFS: thanks. the first symbol has to be a keyword symbol there. 08:07:51 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:57 jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 08:08:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:31 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Quit: .] 08:24:04 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:24:24 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:24:44 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:27:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.44.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:06 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 08:32:15 Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas1-cooksville17-1279271918.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:33:45 johs [~johs@217-14-6-240-dhcp-osl.bbse.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 -!- johs [~johs@217-14-6-240-dhcp-osl.bbse.no] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:27 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:40:06 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:41:18 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:41:39 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:54 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:43:10 Alice3 [~20@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:52:08 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:18 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75deac.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:29 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:00:10 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 09:03:21 jsoftw: until today, was SQL, python, C, PHP, and I've been able to induce some CL in it, from today, mainly C then SQL 09:07:42 Kryztof: I'd say one isn't a real prof until they write papers in Word. LaTeX is for grads students (or is it the other way around? ;) 09:10:18 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:10:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 dim: never dabbled in C++ ? 09:11:34 a very little at school 09:11:42 smithzv [~smithzv@duan145-140-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 09:12:07 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:12:14 dim: I wrote a simple C program which does stuff with pcap. Decided to convert it to some C++ OOP version. Took a lot of work, seperating it into objects, and learning C++ at the same time. 09:12:25 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 dim: just kind of curious about peoples experiences, weather they actually get any kind of adavantage from using OOP (well, in this case, with c++) as opposed to just using normal structs/lists/whatever and a procedural/functional approach 09:13:48 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:14:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:14:46 -!- tr-808 [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:14:48 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:15:08 I'd say OOP is a nice tool to have, sometimes 09:15:53 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:54 -!- eni is now known as albacker 09:16:00 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:16:00 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 09:16:04 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-39.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 09:16:09 occasionally. 09:16:15 far less than its proponents would have you believe. 09:18:19 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Changing host] 09:18:19 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 09:18:23 Or maybe the OO methodology has become so well ingrained that a lot of its benefits are seen plain old good design these days. 09:18:33 -!- tr-808_ is now known as tr-808 09:19:07 the Maybe/Option datatype in Lisp would be nice. :) 09:19:26 we've got NIL and multiple return values! 09:19:42 :{ 09:20:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-153-153.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:20:21 hocwp` [~user@AAmiens-552-1-6-122.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:20:45 It's a pain to tell the compiler about that stuff *and* let the compiler make use of it. 09:21:37 -!- hocwp [~user@AAmiens-552-1-107-22.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:21:46 The compiler is like my best friend to whom I'd like to tell everything. 09:22:04 (deftype maybe (subtype) `(or null ,subtype)) ;) 09:22:32 pinterface: (maybe boolean) -> failure. 09:24:04 -!- albacker is now known as eni 09:25:13 It's not an exact parallel to Haskell's maybe, no. 09:27:22 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:27:30 it's plain incorrect. You can do some hackery with CLOS though. 09:27:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:29:41 The type stuff is one problem I'd like to solve. The other is my hate for defining my own structure types and constantly unpacking and repacking its contents. Ugly. 09:31:55 (monads somewhat address this but I don't see a good way in Lisp, yet) 09:31:59 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:32:45 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:32:59 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:33:08 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:34:14 Quadrescence: let*-like macros in the style that drewc uses work pretty well if you always live in the same monad. Otherwise, I don't think I've seen anything better than kpreid's hack of explicitly constructing a bind tree until it's run in the right monad. 09:37:01 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:37:06 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:38:34 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:39:58 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:40:02 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:23 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:29 Quadrescence: with-slots? 09:43:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:44:00 dim, yes, I know how to do it. That's the unwrapping part. Then you do some operations. Then you wrap it back up again (assuming you're writing this in a functional fashion). 09:45:35 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:10 nothing forces you to be doing functional style in CL though 09:46:33 setf on the slots 09:47:16 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:49:52 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:50:54 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:51:24 dim, yes, I know nothing forces functional style. But still, that's beside the point. 09:52:01 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.251.183] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 09:53:57 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:54:22 didn't get the point sorry, was trying to be practical 09:54:54 dim: if you need immutable data, it's not practical to mutate it. 09:55:07 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:09 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@99-39-241-71.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- arrsim [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- BrianRice 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[~yan@srtd.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- rotty [rotty@de.xx.vu] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- mechanyancat [~mechanyan@li125-243.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:10 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:55:19 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 09:55:20 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 hehe, sure 09:55:37 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:42 And sometimes it's better to destruct and build a new structure on-the-fly instead of doing copying+mutating. 09:56:41 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:56:41 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:56:41 wormwood 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quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:44 sohail [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:44 -!- sohail [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:03:44 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 10:03:54 shifty [~user@114-198-36-60.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:04:41 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.223.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:54 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.135] has joined #lisp 10:07:24 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 10:14:25 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 10:18:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:21:19 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:24:08 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:26:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:16 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 10:29:10 zmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has joined #lisp 10:29:34 -!- zmv is now known as Guest56774 10:33:32 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-242-14-97.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:10 -!- Guest56774 [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34:11 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:43:05 beau_hex [~Beau@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 Hey guys, are there any good online resources for lisp? Or like c++ a book is the only way to go? 10:45:43 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:46:20 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:46:26 there are good online books. 10:47:53 pratical common lisp 10:48:48 ez271 [507997a6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.121.151.166] has joined #lisp 10:50:39 Ah thank you! 10:51:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:51:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:52:00 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.154] has joined #lisp 10:55:21 snearch [~snearch@f053013188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:59:31 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:00:43 -!- gko [~user@42-75-178-141.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:33 PCL will probably be a go to lisp text ten years from now.. 11:02:43 minion: please tell beau_hex about PCL 11:02:43 beau_hex: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:03:27 ZabaQ: still will be? because it's already is 11:03:36 aha yeah sorry 11:03:49 gko mentioned it before 11:04:24 stassats: absolutely 11:04:25 I have seen the same books in stores (for other languages). Pretty cool they have it up for free o.o 11:04:47 It is great, thank you :D 11:04:58 you can buy this book too, if you want to support the author 11:05:42 Yeah if I enjoy lisp I will definately get it :) books are always much easier to use 11:06:13 I just want to check it out as someone said lisp changed alot of how they thought about programming 11:07:47 and you can even buy an ebook, if you care about trees 11:07:54 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-149-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:07:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 11:08:56 hahaha 11:09:01 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-149-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:03 -!- azkay|slp [~Trale_Lew@c114-77-169-162.fitzg3.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:14 I do love trees, but nothing beats having it in your hand x 11:09:19 *xD 11:09:31 well, if you have something like kindle 11:09:39 or even just a tablet 11:09:53 Yeah 11:11:23 -!- eni [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:11:39 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:13:03 ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:13:41 is there any mechanism which would allow me to run some function upon a function or method (re)definition? 11:14:11 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:29 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:16:32 other than a macro? 11:16:33 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@CPE-138-130-69-166.lns1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:20:24 lispworks had a dspec mechanism for that 11:22:04 sohail [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:04 -!- sohail [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:22:04 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 11:23:09 hmm maybe your implementation defines a related hook 11:24:36 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 11:24:47 madnificent: what is it that you're trying to do? 11:26:29 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:26:40 -!- benny [~user@i577A7F87.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26:52 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 11:27:08 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 11:29:28 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 11:30:00 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:30:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:31:19 madnificent: and for your method request, there's 11:31:21 clhs add-method 11:31:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_add_me.htm 11:31:39 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:31:39 still, i'm not sure what you're doing 11:32:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-242-14-97.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 11:34:54 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:10 Anyone planning on going to ILC2012? 11:35:47 Japan, that's too far 11:36:48 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:48 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-149-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:22 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-152-108.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:30 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:02 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:18 -!- Ralith__ [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:45:20 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:42 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@180.120.252.120] has quit [Quit: One] 11:49:57 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 11:50:17 intinig [~user@93-50-99-219.ip152.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:51:26 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:52:51 jsoftw: c++ is kind of multi-paradigm.. There is original OOP stuff, new/delete, virtual functions etc.. Then there is templates and c++ standard lib, previously known as STL, that usually emphasized static typing, smart pointers, and only rarely uses dynamic dispatch 11:54:16 jsoftw: the 1st classic oop paradigm, is only somewhat useful in GUI, or in a monolithic piece of software where everything uses the same library, for example Qt, or KDE... The 2nd STL paradigm is IMHO much more useful is general software, such as converting random C program. 11:55:55 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:20 ie string/vector/map/multiset/sort/lower_bound are all extremely useful to whip together any program manipulating arbitrary data, without thinking about memory allocation at all.. And you get C like performance in optimized builds 11:56:59 *stassats* wonders how is this related to lisp 11:57:59 it's a seed for a discussion about why lisp can't abstract containers with parametric types 11:58:29 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-knumnsgygutetvlg] has joined #lisp 11:58:56 it can't? 11:59:10 well I was responding to conversation above, which appears to have stated by Kryztof complaining abouth shallowness of "lisp hacker" interviews, and how most ppl interviewed don't use lisp in their "day work", followed into discussion of languages ppl actually use in day work 11:59:27 well, not for standard function, but you can have any protocol in your program 11:59:32 functions 12:00:09 dim, can you show me something otherwise that's not a hack, relying on runtime dispatch? 12:00:14 and on some implementations, you can extend sequences 12:00:33 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:35 Quadrescence: that's a guenine question, not a trick question. I'm a n00b here 12:00:45 dim, ah 12:00:58 I took it as the typical snarky "it can't?" response :) 12:01:22 yeah I'm not surprised, in fact, bad formulation, sorry 12:01:32 i sometimes wish empty lists were mutable 12:01:50 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:54 (list nil) produces a mutable list? 12:02:04 it does, but it's not empty 12:02:06 that is not empty 12:02:18 you'd have somehow to remove that NIL later 12:02:42 so, i have to resort to a wrapper-structure, to be able to pass around and modify lists 12:02:43 thing that prevents lisp working in that direction, is that its too easy to cook up a solution.. Ie only really dedicated/smart ppl went into template stuff early in c++, so what eventually came out as STL was really good 12:03:14 maxm, "in that direction" what direction do you mean? 12:03:21 CL-USER> (let (foo) (push 1 foo) foo) ==> (1) 12:03:30 what am I missing? 12:03:35 dim: it modifies a variable 12:03:35 but in lisp, anyone can make their own macro library after 1 months coding in lisp. So everyone rolls their own, there is no clear winner, and so instead of 1 really good library that eventually gets 100% adoption, you get 20 half finished ones 12:03:37 not a list 12:03:53 it produces a new list and have the variable point there? 12:04:14 I think by the nature of the definition of a list, it does not make sense to mutate an empty list (which is really an atom) 12:04:32 dim: well, the question was about lists, not variables 12:04:35 Quadrescence: ability to write high performance statically typed algorithms, that can be applied to parameterized sequences 12:04:49 stassats: yes, well, I'm trying to have at it 12:05:03 maxm, and what do you mean "it's easy to cook up a solution"? 12:06:15 dim: well, (defun modify-list (list) (nconc list (list 1))) (let (foo) (modify-list foo)) 12:06:17 doesn't really work 12:06:24 maxm, (sorry, just trying to understand your statement) 12:07:07 maxm: ok, start by switching to fiveam for log4cl-test 12:07:38 stassats: why? your example is not showing it for me 12:07:54 well, NIL is immutable 12:08:01 Quadrescence: look at representative of libraries in quicklisp that work with array data. From top of my head, babel, antek?, grid-something, series, cl-collections, cl-mathstats. Every one of them rolled their own generalized sequences macros/functions.. 12:08:25 maxm, right 12:08:36 you could do (setf foo (modify-list foo)), but it gets pretty complicated with multiple lists, recursive functions and non-local exists 12:08:42 exits 12:10:16 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:12:12 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:12:16 stassats, want to make a library, CL-LISTS-FOR-THE-REST-OF-US? 12:12:37 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:12:38 not really 12:12:41 :C 12:12:52 Lists in CL are like strings in C -- data patterns rather than objects. 12:13:16 Zhivago, That's a good way to put it. 12:13:19 Quadrescence: (defstruct container children) is enough for me 12:13:28 maxm: That's because CL is not very extensible. 12:13:29 you can even have a WITH-CONTAINER macro 12:14:10 grumpyphd [~grumpy@cpc5-cdif14-2-0-cust617.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:23 S 12:14:25 Zhivago, I think you should qualify your last statement. Not extensible? Surely Lisp's extensibility is one of its strong points. 12:14:43 It's not one of CL's strong points. 12:14:45 so adf is dead, yeah? sounds like quicklisp is the way to go but I am not sure how to create a package to load with quicklisp 12:14:53 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@duan145-140-dhcp.colorado.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:14:54 grumpyphd: you're confused 12:15:04 stassats: please explain? 12:15:06 What you can do is to add new language, rather than to extend the functionality of existing language. 12:15:11 grumpyphd: quicklisp uses asdf 12:15:27 they're different things 12:15:28 Particularly as far as anything in the core language is concerned. 12:15:40 Zhivago, Okay, that's a good distinction. 12:15:56 Zhivago: but it's said lisp lib have full power, same as core language? 12:16:15 stassats: so uhh 12:16:22 dim: that does not mean that the core language is extensible 12:16:34 The problem is that that's divergent rather than convergent. 12:16:39 stassats: when cliki says asdf-install is obsolete what does that mean in practice? 12:16:45 how so? I'm not following that 12:16:54 grumpyphd: it means that asdf-install is obsolete, but not asdf 12:16:55 stassats: when i have external dependencies in my project, won't they be downloaded with asdf-install? 12:17:01 dim: How do you make a new sequence type? 12:17:06 well, it's hard to make a really extensible and fastly implementable language 12:17:08 grumpyphd: asdf-install was badly named, which is why you're now confused. 12:17:23 grumpyphd: asdf-install has no relation to asdf 12:17:29 *sigh* 12:17:32 There are always trade-offs. 12:17:42 Zhivago: other than a list of deftype, ok, I guess I see the point 12:17:43 it also uses asdf, but is a different thing as well 12:17:50 and asdf-install is dead, it's right 12:18:36 grumpyphd: so, if you make your own project with asdf, load it with quickload, quicklisp will download any missing dependencies 12:18:47 stassats: ah 12:18:48 thanks 12:18:53 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:18:53 grumpyphd: check "quickproject" 12:22:24 Does anyone have references about trying to equip lisp with a more modern way of working with types? e.g., recursive types 12:22:45 (specifically common lisp) 12:24:31 Qi is the poster child for that I guess 12:24:50 Yeah :S 12:25:42 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:26:10 I've also reignited my interest in parallelism and concurrency in lisp. As far as I know, there haven't been very successful attempts at it, since the nature of a monolithic core lisp image is ingrained in the idea of lisp itself it seems. 12:26:49 not sure. *Lisp was quite succesful on the CM 12:26:56 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:27:17 There are other lisp like mosquito as well. newlisp has some interesting ideas for distribution and mobility. 12:27:22 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 12:28:02 quad: Personally, I'm a fan of the javascript approach to the problem. 12:28:33 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 12:28:46 What's that? I'm not familiar with JS besides its basic syntax and some of its core constructs. 12:29:00 and pascal constanza is quite positive about the lispworks environment for parallel processing 12:29:17 Algorithmic execution and processes. 12:29:30 mal__, LispWorks has worked quite well in production environments. 12:29:48 (with regards to concurrency) 12:29:54 linkk [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 12:30:31 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:53 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 12:30:56 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Client Quit] 12:33:10 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:33:19 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:38:41 -!- beau_hex [~Beau@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:39:24 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:41:25 sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:25 -!- sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:41:25 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:41:47 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 12:41:59 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:37 sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:37 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:42:37 sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:42:44 Quadrescence: I've been playing with lparallel for parallelism, mostly with lparallel.queue to pass around data between coordinator and worker threads, or in-between worker threads 12:42:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:59 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:41 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:46:04 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:47:14 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:16 dim, I've been meaning to play with it. It seems like a friendly approach to parallelism. 12:50:23 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@183.129.147.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:50:40 I didn't play with plet nor the map/reduce parts of it 12:50:58 only the submit-task + queues 12:51:11 thinking about it, I've done it quite the Erlang way 12:53:03 pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has joined #lisp 12:56:40 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:01:34 ahh it's a wonderful day! 13:02:19 sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:54 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:04:20 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:06:30 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:40 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:52 beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:17:13 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:18:14 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:53 hattkunskapz [~hatt@unaffiliated/hattkunskapz] has joined #lisp 13:22:03 http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbill/2482009734/lightbox/ 13:22:09 wrong window 13:22:22 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:22:23 hehe 13:25:06 -!- djanatyn [~user@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:26:35 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.185] has joined #lisp 13:26:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.185] has quit [Changing host] 13:26:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:27:25 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 13:28:29 fortran rules 13:29:01 also wrong window 13:29:21 ;) 13:29:23 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 13:29:28 -!- hattkunskapz [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (hattkunskapz) 13:29:32 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 13:29:39 hattkunskapz [~hatt@unaffiliated/hattkunskapz] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 aw come awn 13:30:19 have anyone used opengenera? 13:32:18 sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:18 -!- sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:18 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 *Quadrescence* recently ported some Fortran code to Lisp. 13:33:06 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:15 cool 13:34:01 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:26 i'm looking for a "scientific" os 13:34:29 research 13:34:46 i tried minix, but thought i might look at something lisp based 13:34:54 -!- grumpyphd [~grumpy@cpc5-cdif14-2-0-cust617.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:35:18 You might want to check what "scientific" means. 13:35:20 grumpyphd [~grumpy@cpc5-cdif14-2-0-cust617.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:33 Zhivago: i want something abstract 13:35:45 interpret-style 13:35:54 Why not use the posix specification? 13:35:58 That's pretty abstract. 13:36:50 are you kidding 13:37:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A34D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:38:33 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 13:38:53 This is the fortran code: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/nibbles-and-bits/raw/89e76fc4ddd9/Fortran/qsolve.f 13:38:59 This was a first go at the CL code: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/qsolve/raw/3b1541e45001/ranking.lisp 13:41:17 What a mess. 13:41:53 the fortran code? 13:42:14 both 13:42:25 hehe 13:42:34 liked the lisp better 13:42:51 zwick1 [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 13:42:53 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:36 i heard something about some network tool in some os being modified command line not configuration file 13:43:39 i want a whole os like that 13:43:51 command line, interpreter 13:43:57 -!- zwick1 is now known as zwick 13:44:04 and use something like lisp 13:45:44 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 13:47:59 -!- ignas__ is now known as ignas 13:48:03 hmm perhaps that if you had enough wrappers around the tools you want for them to export and import s-exp, then you'd have decent control from a lisp repl/shell without needing a fully lisp OS 13:48:12 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48:26 nkraft [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:35 a kind of s-exp-rpc daemon perhaps 13:48:51 hm 13:49:17 'morning 13:49:24 or s-exp over xml-rpc heh, if you can already find good equivalents for xml 13:49:45 ykm [~ykm@182.237.182.12] has joined #lisp 13:50:14 Fade: good morning 13:51:28 benny [~user@i577A18F6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:52:35 we used to have a bare-metal sbcl, but I don't think that project has seen much work lately 13:52:45 SBCL-OS 13:53:08 I think nyef got stuck on some low-level issues regarding memory layout? 13:53:17 (for driver use) 13:53:49 imagine the pain to support a fair amount of hardware in a new OS, unless there's a large community around it 13:53:59 -!- nkraft is now known as atsidi 13:54:31 solution is to support OHCI/UHCI/EHCI USB, AHCI, and VESA FB 13:54:35 will run on most new PC 13:54:35 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 If I ever become rich, I'm getting all of the SBCL devs, locking them in a basement, putting a few boxes/kegs of Belgian beer down, and going to see what they crank out in a week. Wishlist (1) an os, (2) better compiler, (3) all that other stuff we all want 13:54:41 is that all? :D 13:54:43 and support loading of linux drivers 13:54:57 :D 13:55:07 there's also so much non-conformant bios and devices that they need quirks 13:55:12 if you're going to support alien drivers, might as well use windows drivers 13:55:25 alternative is to target Xen paravirt/hvm, or VMware 13:55:28 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:55:32 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has joined #lisp 13:55:45 _atsidi_ [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:47 dlowe: I'm not very familiar with windows drivers.. but if there's more of them / better quality, then indeed it's a better option. 13:55:59 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 13:55:59 hmm or at that point perhaps simply a framework running in a process with threads 13:56:02 -!- _atsidi_ [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:32 and/or subprocesses 13:56:52 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:53 sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:53 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:53 sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:57:17 it can then run portably on POSIX systems, no matter the architecture 13:57:25 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A34D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:42 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:57:49 I think the approach I'd probably take is the one google took with android; linux kernel as driver with a lisp init/runtime/userland on top. 13:58:10 that seems simple and doable 13:59:04 the downside of it being that all interaction with the hardware needs to go through the c api provided by the kernel. 13:59:15 sure 13:59:24 yeah 13:59:36 The upside being that the kernel defines some easy to use hardware. :) 13:59:43 i liked genera because of (without-interrupts ...) 14:00:00 I think the upside outweighs the downside in this hypothetical. 14:00:14 It might be interesting to use a hypervisor instead of threads. 14:00:24 We all know Genera was Zhivago's favorite operating system. 14:00:26 But posix processes are awfully common and convenient. 14:00:26 H4ns: hmm you probably need some rtos for that, L4 perhaps 14:00:49 we'd just have to hire fe[nl]ix to finish the os/sys layer 14:00:53 :) 14:00:54 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:00:56 "in a week" 14:01:14 i'd help fund that 14:01:23 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:01:23 Fade: I'm all for it 14:01:39 I've been looking for ways to fund just that project. 14:02:52 sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:53 -!- sohail [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:02:53 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:04:25 great 14:04:37 send me a link to the iso when you are finish 14:05:06 ;) 14:05:46 devon [~devon@xyzzy.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:06:15 smithzv [~smithzv@duan145-140-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 14:06:48 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 14:07:42 ReactOS is Open Source and provides binary compatibility to Windows drivers, maybe that's a starting point 14:07:50 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:08:05 dim: hahaha 14:08:11 uhm, definitely not. 14:08:14 lol 14:08:38 look at the problems created in linux with the binary wedges for nvidia and ati. 14:08:56 "all binary drivers!" seems like a recipe for congenital retardation. 14:09:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@46.42.91.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:09:13 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nimizraerslldaqg] has joined #lisp 14:09:21 then the choice is linux-as-a-driver, lisp system on top? 14:09:38 if I were funding the project, that's almost certainly what I'd do. 14:09:54 Locals appear as FOO = (LAMBDA () ..) in the SBCL debugger under Slime - how to see what the .. really is? 14:09:59 code reuse is a good thing. i'm much less interested in writing drivers than other kinds of systems. 14:10:27 i like writing device drivers, but i hate using c for that 14:10:54 It might be nice to have sbcl linked in to the kernel 14:10:59 or something like that. 14:11:15 Maybe a virtualized machine would be a reasonable compromise. 14:11:54 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.160.243.90] has joined #lisp 14:12:06 Then you could write drivers but only the basic and the obscure. 14:13:01 it would be nice for the memory systems in the kernel to talk to the allocator and garbage collector in the lisp. 14:14:48 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129233027.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 14:15:04 fqd 14:15:30 fqd? 14:15:36 fqd. 14:15:49 fqd! 14:16:18 Fade: google for isla vista heap sizing (iirc, i'm away from my refs). there was some old work with kernel modules, but I doubt that'll ever take off. 14:17:18 pkhuong can be in charge of that particular corner of the system. 14:17:30 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:18:17 L4 would be very convenient environment 14:18:21 links all point back to ACM. I'll pull the paper(s) 14:20:55 -!- beau_hex [beau_hex@c210-49-211-165.lowrp3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [] 14:21:07 -!- ykm [~ykm@182.237.182.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:20 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-1.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~ckrintz/papers/cgo07.pdf 14:22:33 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:36 Some people at PDOS (MIT) have been advocating that systems should target a hypervisor, basically (exokernel and all that)... it sure sounds like a nicer hack than just running a CL as init (: 14:22:40 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.185] has joined #lisp 14:22:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.185] has quit [Changing host] 14:22:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:23:19 well, I'm old, and that causes me to wonder about overhead 14:23:36 with modern systems it's probably not a problem. 14:25:05 hypervisor eh? The the one that, say, common-lisp.net runs on top of? :) 14:25:42 heya drew 14:25:46 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.101] has joined #lisp 14:25:51 good morning Fade 14:26:50 sandia estimates it at ~5% at most, and suitable for HPC (: 14:26:57 nice 14:27:34 *drewc* is soon going to move cl-net to a KVM VM rather then the Xen it is on now, as soon as I make sure the KVM is working and the new server is working as well. 14:28:19 at walled we've had pretty good luck with xen. we've only toyed with kvm. 14:28:22 what are the advantages? 14:29:30 it's much faster 14:29:36 Fade: kvm does not require guests to be special, any x86/pc os will run as a guest if it supports the emulated hardware 14:29:44 well, the fact that KVM can run anything, while xen can only run kernels ported to Xen is one of them. And that kvm is built into the linux kernel 14:29:44 ahh 14:29:47 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 14:30:05 we have only used debian redhat and windows guests. 14:30:38 kvm is usually faster as well, though i/o is about the same speed from what I understand 14:30:49 for a lispOS kvm sounds like a winner. 14:31:26 faster than a paravirtualised OS on Xen? VT isn't "free", iiuc 14:31:27 doesn't xen support hardware virtualization, to run unmodified guests as well? 14:31:30 although you'd need a program loader that could run linux binaries. 14:32:00 phadthai: I assumed so, as we have windows running in xen. 14:32:14 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-36-227.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:43 i'm a bit removed from the ops team that handles that stuff. 14:32:50 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:33:04 phadthai: it can yeah, but still have to have the xen hypervisor running. 14:33:04 Kryztof [~user@158.223.59.95] has joined #lisp 14:33:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen#Hardware-assisted_virtualization.2C_allowing_for_unmodified_guests 14:33:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:16 yes of course 14:33:48 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:34:17 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-46-253.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:17 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:36:26 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053013188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:39:52 What is the Common Lisp take on the sufficiently smart compiler? I have the impression that there is no such goal to create one because it has been tried before and it failed. 14:40:24 haha 14:41:22 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 14:41:27 fasta: ETOOMANYINCORRECTPREMISES 14:41:50 fe[nl]ix: no condition system present? 14:42:35 fe[nl]ix: I juse asked the question and I presented what I think the view is. At no point did I say that is the ultimate truth. 14:42:41 just* 14:44:03 jesus, i really should start my own! 14:44:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:07 if we're being hyperbolic anyhow, we can assert that sbcl has a 'nearly smart compiler' and genera had a 'merely marginally insufficient compiler'. 14:44:33 Whenever I become competent enough at compiler development, I want to attempt to make Lisp compilers closer to a Sufficiently Smart Compiler, but I have my reservations about whether Lisp itself is capable of expressing information to the compiler without extending the semantics of the language. 14:44:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:56 the entire notion is a rhetorical pivot used to gloss over difficult problems in practice v. what should be possible in theory. 14:45:26 I think the problem with a SSC is that they are too slow to execute. 14:45:39 The development itself is not the problem. 14:45:50 GLS was working on a 'pretty smart compiler' for CMlisp 14:46:01 GLS? 14:46:03 with hillis et al. 14:46:06 guy l steele 14:46:18 In what year? 14:46:29 when thinking machines was still a going concern. 14:46:40 the eighties until about 1993. 14:46:50 Rabbit did a pretty good job for Scheme, though I never looked at details. It could at least turn the tail-call semantics of Scheme Macros into regular iteration in the machine code. 14:47:03 Fade: thinking machines are much more possible than 20 years ago. 14:47:34 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 14:47:46 Fade: I know about a handful of practitioners that want to make them human competetive within 5-10 years. 14:48:08 are you a compiler expert? 14:48:20 Fade: (these are not pie in the sky projects, but actually have some chance to make working systems) 14:48:22 fasta: I think Fade ment COnnection machine 14:48:45 the company was called thinking machine 14:48:56 Fade: my credentials say I am and I wrote some non-production compilers and I have some real world compiler experience in production compilers. 14:48:57 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:48:57 the computer they produces was a connection machine. 14:49:06 the lisp was going to be connection machine lisp 14:49:07 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:08 Fade: yeah, I know it. 65K cores or so. 14:49:16 A 5-foot black cube with 4096 red LEDs on one face 14:49:26 fasta: well, stick around, and throw your shoulder into the sbcl development. 14:49:26 Don't remember what 1 core exactly did. 14:49:31 it's already a pretty good compiler. 14:49:45 SIMD initially with very little computation at each node. 14:49:55 The one thing I like about SBCL is that it provides an interactive environment. 14:49:58 CM5 used microprocessors at each node. Completely different machine 14:49:59 based on danny hillis' phd thesis. 14:50:03 And most importantly, that you don't lose state. 14:50:05 CM1 was kind of a Cray-4 that actually delivered 14:50:30 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.160.243.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:50:32 T Scheme afaik had pretty good compiler (for the time, at leat) 14:50:33 AFAIK, in Common Lisp I can load a 10 million nodes graph into memory and then just hack on it all day long. 14:50:35 *least 14:50:41 In Haskell you cannot do something like that. 14:51:54 In Haskell you can sortof define functions interactively, but it really is just plain broken in the current interpreters. 14:52:05 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:52:25 I wonder how much can I cut out of CL environment and still have pretty spiffy language 14:52:40 Does SBCL also have back in time debugging like OCaml and some Java systems have? 14:52:49 Oh, and gdb also has that now. 14:53:17 fasta: not really. Java and GDB use some crazy tricks to get that, afaik, while OCaml and Haskell "unwind time" 14:53:18 p_l|backup: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/03_ababa.htm ;) 14:53:42 drewc: I think I could keep the special forms, mostly 14:54:10 the classic REPL would go, though 14:54:10 p_l|backup: Haskell also has mutable variables. 14:54:18 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:29 p_l|backup: but perhaps it doesn't work for that, in which case it is useless. 14:54:37 p_l|backup: in my experience the Haskell debugger is a toy. 14:54:47 fasta: encapsulated in Monads that can be modified to keep trace 14:54:51 p_l|backup: I consider gdb to be a tool. 14:55:18 p_l|backup: sure, but you can also define the common lisp monad. 14:55:27 p_l|backup: it doesn't help how you call it. 14:55:35 drewc is our resident monad expert 14:55:38 p_l|backup: in the end you need to keep track of memory. 14:55:55 p_l|backup: you can compress memory sometimes by having pure functions. 14:56:08 p_l|backup: but sometimes evaluation takes minutes. 14:56:15 p_l|backup: so you need to find a balance for that too. 14:56:20 fasta: yes. But if majority of your code is once-only assignment and lazy, you have less memory to trace 14:56:24 It's a space/time tradeoff. 14:56:45 p_l|backup: is it a bad idea to program functionally in Common Lisp? 14:57:09 anyway, I was thinking of a CL subset that would create LLVM bytecode you could use later with much smaller runtime, etc. 14:57:10 I.e. is the GC built for one particular programming style? 14:57:28 p_l|backup: ECL already has a small run-time, AFAIK. 14:57:36 monad! 14:57:41 fasta: GC type depends on implementation. And a lot o "functional-like" code simply flows better 14:57:41 p_l|backup: Qi/Shen explore that idea pretty exhaustively within their own semantics. 14:58:04 Can Shen still call all of CL code? 14:58:07 fasta: and have the problems of using Boehm GC etc. 14:58:27 p_l|backup: what uses Boehm? 14:58:35 Shen is, aiui, no longer bound exclusively to CL, so the answer is "that depends". 14:58:45 fasta: ECL 14:59:07 I want something that doesn't compile to C, but can expose c-call interfaces and call them 14:59:26 without runtime redefinition support etc. 14:59:29 p_l|backup: doesn't CFFI do that? 14:59:38 fasta: CFFI is for a *complete* CL 14:59:58 I want to cut some stuff (including REPL, built-in compiler, etc.) and make a CL-hosted compiler 15:00:23 p_l|backup: so you just want to partially evaluate a compiler? 15:00:35 so I can test *logic* of the code inside SBCL, then generate small independent .so to load in android let's say 15:00:45 p_l|backup: where the partial evaluation is likely beyond what a computer can do today :) 15:01:25 fasta: no, a subset of CL that targets two environments: LLVM and CL 15:01:51 what is the current state of LLVM? 15:01:54 p_l|backup: well, go for it :) 15:01:59 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 15:02:06 think something akin to "C in S-exprs", but with bypassing the "C" part ;) 15:02:16 Fade: depends what state you're asking about 15:02:22 it's solid, stable platform 15:02:32 does the C frontend, forex, compile the linux kernel? 15:02:43 into something that will run, I mean.. 15:02:44 Fade: that's *clang*, not LLVM 15:02:45 :) 15:02:52 I thought clang++ wasn't that great. 15:03:11 as for Clang, afaik there were some patches to linux kernel that let it compile under Clang 15:03:25 the problem is that linux kernel is not C89 nor C99 15:03:40 That said, clang is managed by a company, which means there is a good reason to improve things. 15:03:55 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 15:03:56 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 15:03:56 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 15:04:01 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 15:04:05 Often 'community projects' tend to become popularity contests. 15:04:17 Now, I am not saying that this holds for SBCL. 15:04:20 *p_l|backup* would like better Obj-C runtime outside OSX 15:05:31 although LLVM backend for SBCL would be... very interesting 15:06:27 so LLVM is a virtual machine that takes an intermediary format and outputs machine code? 15:06:46 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 15:07:33 and it also has a jit-enabled "interpreter" that can run the llvm bytecode if not compiling it to native code 15:07:40 Fade: and does manipulation passes over it (for example, optimizations) 15:07:46 interesting 15:08:01 that'd be useful in the hypothetical sbclOS 15:08:22 for the hypothetical SBCL-OS, we need a module system first 15:08:42 afaik nyef's issue was how to get drivers to not page out etc 15:08:58 *nod* 15:09:25 L4 would be a very, very good ľkernel for such an OS thanks to its memory/task model 15:09:26 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 15:10:16 well, in the hypothetical the main issue is getting something that works soon, without cutting off any potential avenues to make it optimal later. 15:10:27 hence the proposal to use 'linux as device driver' 15:11:45 sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:45 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:11:45 sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:11:58 L4 was the german project to fix the poor performance characteristics of the mach ľkernel? 15:12:07 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:20 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:12:47 it's practically history day in #lisp 15:12:51 Fade: no, it was not a "fixing" effort. it is the outcome of some pretty nice and long-term operating system research done in karlsruhe. 15:12:54 Fade: no, it was a project to actually design a microkernel, not a pie-in-the-sky for an architecture that never materialised 15:13:00 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 15:13:19 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 15:13:19 Fade: they had this programming language elan which was fully persistent and ran on an operating system called eumel. 15:13:28 how is its hardware support on generic PC grade stuff? 15:13:55 Fade: it supports what it needs - task switch interrupt and MMU 15:14:01 that's what L4 uses 15:14:42 so we'd be stuck writing (albeit in lisp) network, display, storage drivers? 15:15:13 Fade: or we could load L4Linux as another task and export such services from it 15:15:25 that's kind of sweet 15:15:48 Fade: the RTOSes in Qualcomm's wireless chipsets are done this way 15:16:33 the time-critical parts run "beside" Linux with appropriate priorities 15:16:39 *Fade* reads the L4 wikipedia article 15:17:14 in such an architecture, a 9P server would integrate very cleanly. 15:17:15 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 15:18:19 L4 has a tree structure of "address spaces" which contain "threads" 15:18:24 well, the current API 15:18:49 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:19:43 so you have two address spaces, the lisp-os and l4linux, deriving space from the master memory controller sigma0 15:20:55 reading this makes me want to continue this toy project of integrating some kind of lisp into xv6 15:21:05 xv6? 15:21:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:53 http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2011/xv6.html 15:21:55 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:22:35 nothing serious but simple enough for me to try to understand it 15:23:04 nice 15:26:47 tcr [~tcr@94.76.45.13] has joined #lisp 15:28:45 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 15:30:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.223.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:32:30 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:39 botter [7aa1f90f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.161.249.15] has joined #lisp 15:33:15 -!- botter [7aa1f90f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.161.249.15] has left #lisp 15:34:36 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:35:25 felideon [~felideon@184.170.255.36] has joined #lisp 15:36:23 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:36:42 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:36:49 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 15:38:06 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:39:37 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:39:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-252-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:41:10 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 15:47:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@94.76.45.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:49:06 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:49:08 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:50:47 https://github.com/drewc/ftw/blob/master/dispatcher/monads.lisp#L72 <--- my default implementation of the monad ... since it was kind of brought up and there is no other folks chatting atm 15:51:48 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:55:36 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:19 AeroNotix [~xeno@aeao51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:59:40 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.154] has joined #lisp 16:00:50 hi drewc 16:01:23 k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.252] has joined #lisp 16:01:26 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:01 about smug: I got caught up in optimizing the input methods a bit, need to find a another free day or two now for documentation and then Ill send you a snapshot for review! 16:07:42 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:07:55 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.200.61] has joined #lisp 16:09:07 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129233027.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:09:35 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129233027.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 16:11:04 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:13:37 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 tcr [~tcr@46.184.208.98] has joined #lisp 16:16:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:43 -!- linkk [~user@178.239.26.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:44 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 16:19:57 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:07 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:42 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:22:09 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 16:23:18 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-152-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:23 sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:57 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-152-108.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:27 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:26:33 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 16:29:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:30 wakeup: cool! and yeah, the INPUTs could use some optimization ... I cannot wait to see your changes :) 16:31:06 *sykopomp* needs to dig out his error-handling/reporting code and merge it with the latest smug at some point. 16:31:42 handling specific parse failures (and recovering) with the condition system was really nice. 16:32:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33:00 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.42] has joined #lisp 16:33:42 cool... I am glad that people are using and improving smug ... i must have done something 'correct' with it :) 16:33:43 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:33:54 you made it *work* 16:34:22 I find myself parsing weird shit so often, and nothing has been easier to use than Smug. 16:34:42 -!- Guest41325 is now known as z0d 16:34:47 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:34:47 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 I really hate parsing... unless I'm doing it with smug, and then I really like it. :) 16:35:34 heh ... i just copied the things from the paper into CL... was not easy, but I knew it would work. 16:35:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:17 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:38:57 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:26 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089CE45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:08 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:49:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@46.184.208.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:40 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:51:50 -!- grumpyphd [~grumpy@cpc5-cdif14-2-0-cust617.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:51:53 sykopomp: I added error handling facilities too (=HANDLER-CASE, =RESTART-CASE, and you can call GET-INPUT-POSITION inside FAIL bodies 16:52:02 what did you come up with? 16:53:00 something more along the lines of what I understood Haskell was doing: https://github.com/sykopomp/smug/blob/master/smug.lisp#L285-306 16:53:42 =handler-case/=restart-case might be nicer, I don't know. I'd need to know more and to actually try it. 16:54:43 -!- gf3 [~gf3@oftn/member/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:54:45 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:55:42 I imagine =HANDLER-CASE would work about the same as EITHER, but with nicer syntax, if it works the way I'm thinking. 16:55:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:56:52 better, even, because it would let you disambiguate between return values and conditions, and attach different handlers to different conditions, whereas with EITHER, you just check the return value and do everything yourself from there. 16:57:09 saage [~saage@187.52.208.59] has joined #lisp 16:57:10 -!- saage [~saage@187.52.208.59] has quit [Changing host] 16:57:10 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 16:57:37 -!- Kryztof [~user@158.223.59.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:12 I see Ill have to upload my snapshot somewhere soon, didnt know more people were working on smug 16:59:53 wakeup: I can recommend github ... just because that is where smug is at currently :) 17:00:13 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:25 I haven't touched it in like a year now or something like that, but I'm planning on getting back to the project that used it soonish. I'd definitely like to use your changes, specially if you already merged in the input changes that drewc did and added condition handling. :) 17:01:22 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-2-126.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 One yak I've wanted to shave is separating the core parsers into separate libraries, getting rid of the =prefixes in favor of smug:parser style, and then adding a bunch of utility parsers to those extra libraries. 17:02:37 smug just has a bunch of miscellaneous parsers slapped into its main package, along with the 'core' combinators. 17:02:44 but again, that's just yak-shaving. 17:03:07 I second the github suggestion. Would be convenient to have it there (and for drewc to merge in the changes into his main repo) 17:03:14 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-knumnsgygutetvlg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:03:59 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:39 -!- punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee] 17:05:15 yeah, org-mode is still in there isn't it ... that is why I wrote smug, because my parser for cl-org-mode is/was not good 17:05:31 yeah :) 17:05:36 punee [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:45 they would be nice to have around, but having them in the main package is meh. 17:05:53 agreed 17:05:57 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:32 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:06:38 I wanted to redo it, and use smug for the next version of cl-org-mode ... but 2011 was a bit, umm, _odd_ for me personally 17:07:33 yeah, it's np. These are all just things I thought of while using it at work and in my own projects. 17:07:46 we kept adding parsers, and there was no obvious place to put them. 17:08:00 so yeah, I am behind on things by about a year... 17:08:23 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-248.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:08:32 jewel [~jewel@196-210-197-27.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:09:55 francogrex [~user@109.130.60.187] has joined #lisp 17:11:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-211.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:32 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.136] has joined #lisp 17:11:46 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089CE45.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:12:10 Hi I have a code (using a connection to oracle by odbc) that searches through a list of tables (tab) however not all tables will have the column (c_id), how can I do to avoid the debugger stopping the looping? do I use ignore-errors ... ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/130364 17:13:12 don't give it tables that lack c_id? 17:13:26 usually, if the question is "do I use ignore-errors?", the answer is "no" 17:13:39 you could handle the specific condition this throws. 17:13:55 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089C3E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:26 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@duan145-140-dhcp.colorado.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:50 lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-4-245.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:22 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:18:26 ck42 [~ck@89.244.118.102] has joined #lisp 17:19:42 these are many many tables and i don't know which ones have c_id as col, so something more practical is needed 17:21:08 why don't you query the database for those tables? 17:21:38 smithzv [~smithzv@ucb-np2-158.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 17:21:48 What little I've absorbed of the RDBMS religion suggests that if you don't know the schema for the tables you're accessing, you shouldn't be accessing those tables to begin with. 17:25:08 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:15 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 17:25:30 HANDLER-BIND/HANDLER-CASE will work usually for that sort of thing. 17:25:43 -!- ck42 [~ck@89.244.118.102] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:25:59 I think both pgsql and mysql give you access to the schema through tables. I'd probably go that route, myself, instead of handling conditions. 17:26:05 *Xach* used handler-case recently to handle harmless duplicate key errors, go to debugger on anything else 17:26:34 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:54 yeah whatever, law and religion abiding citizens and preachers :) I think I will go with HANDLER-BIND/HANDLER-CASE here 17:27:09 then again, the last time I accessed oracle from Lisp was 2008, where we had our own socket based thing to take to Oracle via C, then on sockets to Lisp, so what do I know? :) 17:27:42 I'm using plain-odbc I use it for almost all DBs 17:27:44 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28:39 *drewc* uses postmodern for all the db's he uses if he has the choice 17:28:54 (incf pomo) 17:29:31 (1+ postgres) ;) 17:29:33 -!- intinig [~user@93-50-99-219.ip152.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:30:05 postgres => 0 17:30:07 D: 17:30:13 I like Postmodern, but it threw us a serious loop on our most recent project. 17:30:26 o yah? 17:31:02 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:10 postgres was writtin in LISP at first! 17:31:42 We used the dao-class metaclass for one table in the database, and we got a strange not-always-reproducible error on first accessing the database. 17:32:03 pomo's dao could use... removal. 17:32:10 All kinds of complaints about either lacking methods and slots, or duplicate definitions of same. 17:32:46 Well, that's ultimately what we ended up doing. Fell back to issuing explicit update queries to write to the table, and did reads through alists and stuff instead of DAOs. 17:32:52 *sykopomp* wrapped pomo's deftable instead to make his own defdao-like thing. 17:32:52 *drewc* has his own DAO thing that also sucks and he is re-doing the app that uses it so it doesn't 17:33:07 deftable is actually pretty nice. 17:33:10 hey guys i found squeak 17:33:13 c'ya 17:33:18 :P 17:33:24 good, go away now. 17:33:36 sykopomp: you go away 17:34:08 Here's a note I sent to the postmodern-devel list: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/postmodern-devel/2012-June/001013.html 17:34:15 *drewc* is tempted to use /kick ... going to work now instead 17:34:39 I take it that lossage through DAO in Postmodern is a known phenomenon and folks mostly just avoid using it? 17:34:46 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:10 drewc: I think what I really want is an easy way to define tables using lisp syntax, and using that to manage schema updates, too. 17:35:44 Having the table definitions generate insertion functions might be nice, too. Insertion is the only thing I use DAO for. 17:35:52 drewc: re-doing apps and splitting out your own libraries: i recognise that. sometimes you then extend what you built initially and re-do your apps so they do include what you've built :) 17:36:09 but beyond that, I'm perfectly happy writing s-sql to query the database. 17:36:26 sykopomp: with respect to sql, i didn't dislike migrations (for any library you find of it, mine only works for postgres, i think). 17:36:32 t cannot recommend doing that at all ... but then again I prefer to use SQL to do the schema things 17:36:53 hah, i've been kicked once already .D 17:37:03 i was just kidding 17:37:24 hattkunskapz: there sholudn't be a ".D" at the end of that sentence 17:37:48 but squeak seem to have the feature i was looking for, too bad it's smalltalk 17:37:56 madnificent: why not? 17:38:08 and I can mention the the SQL is a text string stored in DEFINE-MIGRATION that has a backwards/forwards strings, and a number , and a table migration_status ... 17:38:39 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:12 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:39:25 and often the string is a #. thing via s-sql ... but still, not lisp lol 17:40:10 :P 17:41:00 (and the migrate-database.sh script that is not lisp! ... though it does sbcl --load quick-migrate.lisp) 17:43:37 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:49:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:50:16 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:50:38 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:50:54 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:52:11 I wonder if the lisp version of postgres is still around archived somewhere... 17:53:00 anyway gtg now. see you all later 17:53:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.35.101] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 17:53:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.60.187] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:55:56 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Suthe] 18:03:07 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-4-245.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 18:03:08 Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@ucb-np2-158.colorado.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:07:12 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:55 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:09:20 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:10:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:12:11 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 18:12:12 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 18:12:12 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 18:12:52 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:55 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 18:20:53 zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-146-121.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:21:02 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 18:22:35 what does 'd' mean in repl? For example '4d0' => 4.0d0 18:23:05 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:34 it means double precision 18:23:36 double-precision, I think. 18:26:57 ok, need to think a different approach to my dice generator then 18:27:05 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.135] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:27:35 Why? Are you adding direct Lisp syntax for dice specs? 18:28:23 zmyrgel: a bigger problem is that you can't really hook in the parsing of tokens that start with a digit. 18:28:44 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:29:21 pkhuong: I was planning something like (roll-dice 2d4) 18:29:45 #4d6 would work, I guess... but the first value must be a literal integer. 18:29:53 (roll-dice "2d4") isn't too bad, imo. 18:30:06 and if you're getting input from the user, I bet you have it as a string anyway. 18:30:07 zmyrgel: #4d6 could expand into (roll-dice 4 6)! 18:31:00 well it should also handle the nicer (roll-dice 4d6+2d4+3) case too 18:31:19 (roll-dice "4d6+2d4+3") 18:31:34 speaking of smug, I wrote a smug parser that did just that. Dunno where I put it... 18:31:35 sykopomp: yeah, seems the best option so far 18:31:41 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:30 (+ #4d6 #2d4 3) (: 18:33:02 pkhuong: you don't necessarily want to add them that way. 18:33:26 sykopomp: how else? 18:34:04 pkhuong: #4d6 => '(3 2 4 6) 18:34:41 systems that deal with these kinds of dice rolls often expect you to inspect the values of individual dice for successes/failures, instead of adding the results. 18:34:43 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:35:09 sellout [~Adium@31-35-59.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:35:30 But that can be covered with MORE SYNTAX! It is a logically distinct operation, after all (: 18:35:53 (: 18:36:06 sellout1 [~Adium@18.111.24.196] has joined #lisp 18:36:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:34 SYNTActiX [~Nick@63.225.252.45] has joined #lisp 18:36:40 LegendaryQ [~Legendary@unaffiliated/legendaryq] has joined #lisp 18:36:44 #4d6>4 (: 18:36:47 java has way too many commas 18:36:51 dear god 18:37:10 pkhuong: that would actually be pretty handy. :) 18:37:21 i mean there are so many incredibly stupid paranthesis 18:37:44 i meant paranthesis in my first comment 18:37:55 SYNTActiX: shhh. 18:38:15 boo. My die-roll parser is nowhere to be found. :( 18:38:23 *SYNTActiX* slaps himself for being soooo stupid and annoying to skyopomp 18:38:28 ...huh. 18:38:31 die-roll parser? 18:38:52 kalayn [~kalayn@63.225.252.45] has joined #lisp 18:38:58 what are you using it for? 18:39:04 shooting the breeze. 18:39:06 hi guys 18:39:09 so i want to learn lisp 18:39:12 but have only used game maker 18:39:19 how many hours will it take? 18:39:23 oh my god 18:39:30 hey, just because you have a lisp doesn't mean you can learn lisp 18:39:38 I actually wrote it as a utility for an irc bot used for playing RPGs. Or it was meant for that. 18:39:39 though generally the geeky lisp havers do learn lisp 18:39:42 -!- sellout [~Adium@31-35-59.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:44 kalayn: not too long 18:39:49 kalayn: about 10,000 hours, or 10 years. 18:39:50 -!- sellout1 is now known as sellout 18:39:52 kalayn: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:39:53 kalayn: check out sicp 18:40:06 sykopomp: very nice 18:40:07 kk ty 18:40:21 kalayn: they have videos too, which are very good 18:40:31 kalayn: depends on your goal. Doesn't take too long to be dangerous, if interacting with programs in a console is good enough. 18:40:32 pornographic videos? 18:40:35 kalayn: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ 18:40:37 SYNTActiX: go away 18:40:39 kalayn: I have been learning lisp for over 8 years now 18:40:49 Xach: same 18:41:00 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:07 LegendaryQ: Same what? 18:41:07 most lisps come naturally, and people typically try to lose their lisp 18:41:13 Xach> SYNTActiX: go away 18:41:14 so this is an interesting discussion 18:41:23 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:41:25 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*Nick@63.225.252.* 18:41:27 -!- SYNTActiX [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Go away) 18:41:29 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 18:41:30 ahh, summertime. 18:41:53 Xach: a script for kicking? :) 18:42:08 /jcvd 18:42:30 LegendaryQ: I think I originally wrote it to show someone how easy it was to cook up such a thing using smug. 18:43:00 sykopomp: ... and the livin is easy. fish are jumpin, and the cotton is high. 18:43:18 Xach: thank you btw! 18:43:20 https://gist.github.com/1255258 aha, I found it! 18:43:25 it lives in gist! 18:44:23 (to my embarrassment, this seems to actually sum up all the rolls, just like I told pkhuong it shouldn't) 18:45:18 nice looking parser library! :D 18:45:32 :D 18:46:06 Xach: i remembered and old problem with quicklisp, if i call it with a different install directory, it still wants to add the home-directory to init-file 18:46:08 sykopomp: it also has dices that start at 0 ;) 18:46:17 maybe it is fixed already? 18:46:38 stassats: you mean (ql:add-to-init-file) adds code with the wrong path? 18:46:48 -!- kalayn [~kalayn@63.225.252.45] has left #lisp 18:46:49 right 18:47:26 pkhuong: hah. Indeed. 18:47:38 stassats: I don't think it still does that, but if it does, I would love to see how to reproduce it so I can fix it. 18:48:11 lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-210-187.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:19 that was some time ago, just now my remembering of it coincided with your presence 18:48:20 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.79.89] has joined #lisp 18:48:29 and that was on windows, if that matters 18:49:15 *stassats* goes to scavenge a laptop with windows 18:53:45 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-nimizraerslldaqg] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:54:26 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:54:39 *Xach* is made very sad by windows 18:56:12 *drewc* stopped using windows on his computers in '96 because it made me sad as well 18:57:15 SYNTActX [~kalayn@63.225.252.45] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 drewc: well, it got somewhat better since then 18:58:01 lol 18:58:08 is this the lots of incredibly stupid paranthesis channel? 18:58:19 SYNTActX: sneaky 18:58:23 here we go again 18:58:23 because i have some stories of stupid language syntax 18:58:28 3 18:58:29 involving paranthesis 18:58:30 2 18:58:32 1 18:58:44 (((ka)boom)) 18:58:55 >_> 18:59:14 whatever, i'm going back to being productive 18:59:37 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:59:40 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*Nick@63.225.252.* 18:59:41 what is the difference between car and cdr, is one something you drive and other a person who carries golf clubs 18:59:50 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*@63.225.252.* 19:00:55 -!- SYNTActX [~kalayn@63.225.252.45] has left #lisp 19:02:12 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-210-187.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:02:28 Xach: those long package names are not conductive to good experience in the poor windows CMD 19:02:44 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 19:02:50 stassats: which ones? 19:02:57 Xach: ok, it does (let ((quicklisp-init (merge-pathnames "setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname)))) ...) 19:03:14 quicklisp-quickstart 19:03:22 does cut & paste work? 19:04:10 cmd's cut and paste is worse than typing it by hand 19:04:51 oh, and it actually didn't install it where i asked it to 19:05:17 ah wait, i forget / 19:05:25 forgot, rather 19:06:04 someone wanted a warning for that 19:06:08 i guess i haven't done it yet 19:06:55 lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-210-187.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-akfxudilmuomzeuu] has joined #lisp 19:07:17 why not dwim it? 19:07:51 i could do that too 19:08:35 ok, add-to-init-file does the right thing now, with / 19:09:07 i think the problem was when i installed it to C:/, not a subdirectory of ~ 19:09:08 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-210-187.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:24 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.101.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:13 It's meant to work with that, too 19:10:30 it uses enough-namestring to see if it should be absolute or relative 19:12:09 hm, now when i installed it into ~/c, and try to install it to c:/ql/, it complains "quicklisp has already been set up" 19:12:55 any hints in the restarts? 19:13:38 no errors, just !!! Quicklisp has already been setup. !!! 19:13:48 fooey 19:14:09 ah, i guess that's because it was add to the init file 19:14:35 *stassats* tries has patience with CMD one more time 19:14:56 i do all that through M-x shell in emacs 19:15:10 -!- jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo_] 19:15:12 *Xach* has no CMD patience 19:15:14 that's not my laptop 19:15:34 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.185] has joined #lisp 19:15:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.185] has quit [Changing host] 19:15:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 ok, it seems to the right thing now, false alarm all around 19:16:28 except for paths without / 19:16:33 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:17:21 phew 19:17:30 would quickstart be a better package name? 19:17:58 I worry that it's too generic. 19:18:30 ql-quickstart? 19:19:42 i think i am likely to stick with what it is now 19:20:20 or maybe quicklisp-start 19:20:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:21:21 org.quicklisp.start! :) 19:21:40 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:21:48 that's hardly less typing 19:22:10 *drewc* scrolls up to see what we are discussing 19:22:53 drewc: CMD sucking, basically 19:22:58 ah... it is not much less typing at all. 19:23:25 yeah, CMD does suck indeed 19:24:07 how do you know? you haven't been using it since 1996! 19:24:48 I have it under virtualbox so the I can run IE ... I still develop web apps after all 19:24:55 that I 19:26:27 *drewc* usually has cywin installed if windows has to be used for a while 19:26:51 cygwin ... my spelling is off, time for a break for typing! 19:27:05 from* <---- yikes, bbiab 19:27:13 -!- sellout [~Adium@18.111.24.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:22 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:27:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:02 maxm: you haven't answered my suggestion 19:28:39 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:09 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:21 -!- LegendaryQ [~Legendary@unaffiliated/legendaryq] has left #lisp 19:36:13 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:38:00 urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-9-205.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 -!- edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Nuclear meltdown] 19:45:08 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:44 -!- hocwp` is now known as hocwp 19:46:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:49:26 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:57:23 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 19:57:52 `ska80 [~kamil@ppp-27-55-10-2.revip3.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:58:23 -!- `ska80 [~kamil@ppp-27-55-10-2.revip3.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:45 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 20:00:07 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest52922 20:00:49 snearch [~snearch@f053013188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:23 -!- Guest52922 is now known as X-Scale 20:05:01 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-197-27.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:39 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 20:09:49 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 20:10:16 sellout [~Adium@c-24-91-75-190.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:06 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:53 Fade: are you going to the toronto meeting? 20:20:51 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:21:55 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:24:24 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:55 Aiwass [~user@188.26.201.222] has joined #lisp 20:28:20 hi,is there a common lisp html parsing library for parsing a webpage at a given url? 20:28:54 -!- zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-146-121.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:04 Aiwass: I think closure, maybe? 20:29:50 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 20:29:51 no common lisp? I use sbcl 20:30:14 oh,sry 20:30:25 Aiwass: Yeah, not "clojure" ;) 20:30:35 yes yes :)), sorry 20:31:30 closure-html 20:31:58 Aiwass: http://weitz.de/drakma/ 20:32:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 *sykopomp* wonders if closure-html supports 'proper' html5. 20:32:19 Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has joined #lisp 20:32:58 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089C3E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:34:17 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 20:34:42 Aiwass: along with http://www.cliki.net/CL-HTML-Parse 20:34:48 I loaded closure-html with quicklisp, I will give it a try 20:34:51 both are in quicklisp, by the way 20:35:33 there's also com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-parser it seems 20:35:54 The problem being of course to find a HTML page. 20:36:42 I would bet one could find such a thing at this url: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-parser.parse-html.html 20:37:13 Nope: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.informatimago.com%2Fdevelop%2Flisp%2Fdoc%2Fcom.informatimago.common-lisp.html-parser.parse-html.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0 20:37:16 there's one error! :-) 20:37:24 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:38:05 a typo at that! 20:39:07 Xach: I can't make it 20:39:12 pjb: is your parser able to work on unvalid chunks of html? 20:39:42 it looks like it needs the whole document in one go, what if that document is larger than memory? then don't use this package? 20:40:13 buy more memory 20:40:16 I've just returned from vacation, and stuff has piled up. 20:40:45 dim... a HTML file that requires that much memory? seriously? 20:40:49 dim: no. Once upon a time I had a few heuristic to parse some specific invalid pages, but I don't have anything generic. 20:42:05 p_l|backup: I've seen that, in XML in fact 20:42:15 There, it's corrected. 20:42:25 -!- Kuloto [~root@61.27.pool.kuban.skylink.ru] has left #lisp 20:42:27 -!- scrimohsin [~as97bg11@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 20:42:44 and I've seen that because the developper only knew how to use a DOM parsing lib and couldn't understand how to handle a SAX parsing lib 20:42:50 well, that was in another life :) 20:42:52 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:08 dim: that's where trying to scavenge a real web browser parser could be a good idea. 20:43:21 -!- Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:43:26 dim: now of course, the right thing to do is to complain with the authors of the bad HTML. 20:44:01 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:44:02 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 20:44:20 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:25 ahah 20:44:39 pjb: that's only the right thing if you have an infinite amount of time in your hands :) 20:44:49 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Suthe] 20:45:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:16 dim: perhaps we should automatize the process. If google refused to index ill-formed html pages, they'd be motivated to do it right 20:45:16 dim: I believe you have worse problems than that, then 20:45:45 dim: I can understand for xml data, but for HTML data, the DOM tree will explode 20:45:50 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:46:06 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-9-205.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:00 pjb: bootstrap error, if google wouldn't index such pages its index would be empty and it would go bankrupt 20:47:18 dim: right, but it could do something now. 20:47:29 Starting by ordering well formed pages before ill formed ones. 20:47:39 And later just dropping ill formed pages. :-) 20:47:41 lanka [~cusha@p54B00324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:44 maybe yes, I fail to really see the point, but well 20:48:03 I think we need a reference implementation 20:48:04 -!- lanka [~cusha@p54B00324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 20:48:25 in fact I'm not the one thinking that, http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html 20:51:20 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:32 pjb: afaik well formed ones already get priority.. because they index better 20:51:57 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:56:55 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:37 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.79.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:00:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:10 fe[nl]ix: sorry missed your suggestion among the conversation. Yes I have "check out 5am" in my todo list, unfortunately more urgent items always come up, and stephil just "good enough" at not pissing me off, so item never rises. Kind of like asdf, everyone sees the warts, but goes "oh well, someday" 21:02:57 maxm: except Fare. He goes I'll fix ASDF and simultaneously work on its replacement. 21:03:15 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-226-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:20 zmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has joined #lisp 21:04:41 sellout: I have to give him props, asdf2 was huge improvement 21:04:44 -!- zmv is now known as Guest10682 21:04:50 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 21:05:11 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:07:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:10:06 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:07 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:10:22 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053013188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:10:51 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:11:58 -!- tritchey 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Leaving] 22:31:03 tritchey [~tritchey@209.131.196.174] has joined #lisp 22:31:51 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:18 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:34:35 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:35:28 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 22:36:10 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:37:07 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:39 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:45:18 arrsim [~user@russell.its.unimelb.edu.au] has joined #lisp 22:45:21 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:08 tcr1 [~tcr@46.42.114.104] has joined #lisp 22:48:08 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 hello 22:49:46 I'm new to lisp and I guess I haven't really grasped how symbols work yet 22:53:35 what is there to misunderstand 22:53:41 slyrus [~chatzilla@c-67-180-200-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:01 specifically, why this is valid: (car '(test 2 1)) and this is not: test when 'test' is an undefined symbol 22:55:09 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:55:39 test evaluates to the value of the symbol called "TEST". 'test evaluates to the symbol called "TEST". 22:57:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:57:18 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:58:19 shwouchk: a symbol is like a "label" you can glue to "things" 22:58:36 Bike, I see 22:59:20 -!- hattkunskapz [~hatt@unaffiliated/hattkunskapz] has left #lisp 22:59:22 notzmv, that I understand. In ways like a pointer in some languages 22:59:26 ? 22:59:32 shwouchk, you must understand the difference between code and data 22:59:49 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:53 car is code. test is data -- it's under a quote 23:00:20 so car is evaluated, but test isn't. 23:00:57 hmm 23:01:23 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@46.42.114.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:32 Fare, I see 23:03:38 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:20 thanks to all who answered! 23:06:35 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@209.131.196.174] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:07:18 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:09:48 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:10:41 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has joined #lisp 23:10:44 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:12:02 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-183-188.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:24 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 23:12:29 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-akfxudilmuomzeuu] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:15:26 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:49 tritchey [~tritchey@209.131.196.174] has joined #lisp 23:20:30 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-152-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:33 scrimohsin [~as97bg11@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:34 -!- scrimohsin [~as97bg11@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:20:34 scrimohsin [~as97bg11@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:21:48 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:21:49 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-152-108.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:56 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:57 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:59 tcr1 [~tcr@46.184.128.73] has joined #lisp 23:23:30 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-46-253.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:50 the return value of make-broadcast-stream is an open output stream correct? 23:39:16 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:59 an output stream of type broadcast-stream 23:40:25 note: 23:40:30 clhs broadcast-stream 23:40:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_broadc.htm 23:40:33 "The functions open-stream-p tests whether the broadcast stream is open[2], not whether its component streams are open." 23:40:34 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:54 I'm not sure make-b-s specifies that the stream is open 23:40:54 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:05 antifuchs: how would it become open if it weren't - this is the nature of my query :) 23:42:19 use with-open-stream? 23:43:02 if so then would w-o-s be the only way to open a broadcast stream? 23:44:33 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 23:49:02 my situation is that i have three files i wish to write to primary, secondaryA, secondaryB via two broadcast streams - The output to primary is either lispy data or plaintext. Regardless, I always want to send output to primary. The output to secondaryA is lispy data and to secondaryB is plaintext. So, contingent on a keyword arg I will either be sending lispy data to two file-streams and plaintext data to one filestream OR plaintext 23:49:02 data to two streams and lispy data to one stream. This creates alot of plumbing and i'd prefer not to have multiple nested with-open-file and with-open-stream forms. 23:49:15 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru` 23:50:04 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@99.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: bedtime] 23:51:36 What are the major implementations of Common Lisp that #lisp recommends? 23:52:06 I have clisp and sbcl installed, I'm wondering what other ones are common. 23:52:29 You could say that I'm asking for a list of common Common Lisps. 23:53:37 Aethaeryn: http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html might suit you 23:54:38 Aethaeryn: this channel uses mainly SBCL, then I guess Clozure CL (CCL). Some people use commercial lisps, mainly Allegro and LispWorks (there's also Scieneer, which is commercial fork of CMUCL). Aforementioned CMUCL and CLISP are rather rare (except for pjb who is good with clisp, so he might know best about any issues). There's also ECL showing up regularly 23:54:42 tsuru`: Wow, GNU has two Common Lisps (CL, CLISP) and two Schemes (MIT, Guile) and Emacs Lisp. They must really like their Lisps. 23:54:51 there are some that are basically forgotten 23:55:34 Aethaeryn: of those, afaik MIT Scheme isn't really GNU (it's just on their license), and CLISP while now firmly in FSF camp, got there by license hijack from readline IIRC 23:56:00 http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 23:56:12 Guile was supposed to be "the" extension language for GNU OS 23:56:16 Well, they distribute an "MIT/GNU Scheme" 23:56:35 mon_key: (let ((lispy (make-broadcast-stream primary secondaryA)) (plaintext (make-broadcast-stream primary secondaryB))) (print '(sexp) lispy) (print "text" plaintext)) ; what's the problem? 23:57:39 Aethaeryn: It's also maintained by someone who worked for MIT and now Google. And MIT Scheme was used for 6.001 :) 23:57:39 pjb: no problem just wanted to make sure i had the idiom down 23:58:23 And now for 6.S184. http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.S184/ 23:58:44 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nhwtvcrncuvsqetl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:58:45 well, 6.S184 is part of IAP 23:58:53 pjb: in particular whether I need to check wither the m-b-s is open-stream-p or if i must check it first. 23:58:59 not exactly a normal course 23:59:51 mon_key: there's no way to "open" a stream once it's closed. It would be rather useless if it returned a closed stream. 23:59:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]