00:00:04 List Processing 00:00:05 but that's the source 00:00:10 wingy: Lots of Irritating, Spurious Paretheses 00:00:16 -!- dmizzle [~dmizzle@65-130-132-248.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:21 is List the only data type in Lisp? 00:00:22 or Superfluous 00:00:24 or Stupid 00:00:30 or Smart 00:00:31 wingy: have a look at the precursor: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html and at the origin of LISP: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 00:00:33 wingy: no, not by far 00:00:53 wingy: There are no lists in Lisp. 00:00:54 but in the beginning, it was the primary composite structure (well, a singly-linked list cell, or 2-tuple) 00:01:11 wingy: it's not the only data type, but it's the datatype that motivated the creation of lisp (that, and COND). 00:01:12 it's still an integral and easy part of the syntax 00:01:21 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:01:35 And yes, paradoxically, there's no list ADT in lisp :-) 00:01:41 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:01:52 This is why lisp is so nice to do list processing. 00:02:08 Similarly, there's no I/O in C, that's why C is so nice to do I/O processing. 00:02:10 etc. 00:02:39 Any language that is good at something will actually lack definitions of that something (but allow for meta-definitions of that something instead). 00:02:45 -!- zbigniew [zb@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:960c] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:55 right, it gives you the tools to do that well 00:02:59 god damn nigger lovers I am going to kill every staffer on freenode http://www.chimpout.com/forum 00:03:02 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: dobranoc] 00:03:03 yep. 00:03:07 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 00:03:08 pjb: ok is it the only aggregated data type? 00:03:20 hm perhaps you have maps as well 00:03:28 wingy: no. there are structures, objects, arrays, vectors, strings, hash-tables, packages, etc. 00:03:29 no, there are structures, classes & instances, hashtables, pathnames, and all sorts of fundamental structures 00:03:41 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 00:03:56 wingy: Have a look at Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:04:03 wingy: and http://cliki.net/ 00:04:42 im doing clojure atm .. always hearing "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10data structures" and was curious what he meant 00:05:03 wingy: clojure has its own channel, try #clojure. 00:05:26 still, the sentiment works. 00:05:28 sykopomp: im there .. but that saying comes from lisp 00:05:31 "Common Lisp" is a specific language, it's not just "the lisp family" 00:05:55 but people here do know lisp history 00:06:07 wingy: the saying is, I think, unrelated to Lisp. However, it basically boils down to "model the data right, and the code will follow" 00:06:43 p_l|backup: yeah .. keep the data structure simple right 00:06:57 keep it generic 00:07:11 wingy: no, keep it *right* for the problem you're solving 00:07:26 having generic protocols help 00:09:25 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-218-185.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:09:57 -!- RandyTravis is now known as ChimpBot 00:15:43 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:17:06 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 00:17:07 -!- ChimpBot [~RandyTrav@189.223.66.223.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-Lined] 00:22:17 wingy: and indeed, code follows data structure: if you have a sequence, then you will have an iteration. If you have a structure then you will have a progn. 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[benni@p54839DA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:54 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A237.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:16:01 -!- notzmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:18:43 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:19:08 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-srnozixrayvsqnjs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:21:04 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 03:21:08 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:09 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:21:09 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 03:21:38 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 03:21:59 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:10 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 03:28:26 Hey, has anyone got the time to help me debug something, I was under the impression it should be working, but it outputs differently to expected. (very minorly) http://pastebin.com/PZyx8RtU) 03:28:34 mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:34 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:28:40 It's very very small, shouldn't take more than a glance. 03:30:05 <|3b|> poor organization/indentation makes it harder to understand with just a glance :/ 03:30:45 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-skcgzijsimkzcwko] has joined #lisp 03:30:58 PseudoMander: http://paste.lisp.org is more practical for lisp code. 03:32:09 PseudoMander: see: http://paste.lisp.org/+2SK0 03:33:22 PseudoMander: so try again with http://paste.lisp.org/new 03:33:25 guyal_ [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:02 PseudoMander: so all we can say so far is that you're not using the right tools. 03:35:04 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:35:04 -!- guyal_ is now known as guyal 03:35:20 You should be using emacs (with paredit) to edit lisp code, and http://paste.lisp.org to paste lisp code. 03:35:29 <|3b|> we can also say that REST returns a list 03:36:41 chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:36:41 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:36:41 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 03:37:19 <|3b|> and that an iterative solution would probably have been more clear in the first place 03:37:20 @|3b| thankyou, that's exactly what I needed. I'm learning lisp of an old lambda textbook so I haven't got the full picture yet. 03:37:37 <|3b|> minion: tell PseudoMander about pcl 03:37:41 PseudoMander: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:39:09 PseudoMander: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 03:39:11 *|3b|* would also use COND rather than nested IFs, and ZEROP to compare things to 0 03:40:19 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:41:20 <|3b|> PseudoMander: also, current style is to name variables created with DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER with **, like *Y* instead of Y 03:42:40 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 03:42:40 <|3b|> (the reasons are a bit subtle, and would probably just confuse you if just starting out, but it is still a good habit to get into, since it can help avoid some non-obvious and hard to track down bugs) 03:42:44 That is, if you want to avoid spending half a day debugging. 03:45:20 PseudoMander: also, it's not an output problem, but a structure building problem you have. 03:46:28 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47:02 Cool, thanks I'll start a cheatsheet on my whiteboard. 03:48:33 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has joined #lisp 03:52:01 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 03:52:20 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:05 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:01:23 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 04:05:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:50 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 04:06:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:24 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:53 alcar [bacd392e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.205.57.46] has joined #lisp 06:47:14 hey guys, anyone mind giving me some help? 06:47:40 <|3b|> does suggesting you ask something specific count as help? 06:48:02 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.204.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:41 haha, that's right 06:49:31 uhm, so, I've read one or two books on lisp, and I wanted some new material, focused on game programming 06:49:58 I would be intersted in this as well. I am in a similar situation. 06:49:59 I know the basics of lisp, I'm a beginner on lisp, tho I've programmed in another languages 06:50:13 gunnar_m [~gunnar_m@213.209.114.50] has joined #lisp 06:50:18 -!- gunnar_m [~gunnar_m@213.209.114.50] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:35 gunnar_m [~gunnar_m@213.209.114.50] has joined #lisp 06:51:06 take a look at Land of Lisp 06:51:08 <|3b|> 'land of lisp' is the only book i know of that covers common lisp and game programming of any sort 06:51:19 already read it :P 06:51:30 not necessairly books 06:51:33 <|3b|> http://lispgames.org/index.php/Main_Page might also have some more info 06:51:36 it can be online tutorials o videos.. 06:51:53 or* 06:52:08 mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 06:52:47 -!- mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has left #lisp 06:53:46 <|3b|> you might also look at Practical Common Lisp for a non-game common lisp book, if you haven't yet 06:54:10 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zpesbefhjnbaqwlr] has joined #lisp 06:54:27 I wanted to focus more on game prog from now on :( 06:54:41 <|3b|> there is also #lispgames channel, though most of the people there are also here 06:55:26 oh, is that so? I'll try it over there 06:57:14 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:33 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 06:57:48 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:59:30 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0nk.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:48 -!- gunnar_m [~gunnar_m@213.209.114.50] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 07:01:36 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:43 -!- alcar [bacd392e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.205.57.46] has left #lisp 07:01:50 Ah, cool, lisp games 07:02:01 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:12 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: ,] 07:04:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:05:14 -!- saltmiser [saltmiser@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-bvnqidrtonpzhmsf] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:08:49 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 07:09:34 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:11:54 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 07:12:11 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:41 -!- Guest51762 is now known as chu 07:15:12 -!- chu is now known as Guest39107 07:16:19 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:16:43 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:19:05 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:45 sog: there's not really anything special or unique about games, as applications go 07:19:53 study graphics and soft-realtime programming 07:23:51 am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has joined #lisp 07:25:27 I have this game which is 3k lines of Java, and I was thinking about rewriting it in Lisp. 07:26:34 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 07:27:17 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:46 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:27:48 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:19 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.151.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:30:40 -!- Guest39107 is now known as chu 07:30:47 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 07:30:47 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 07:31:06 -!- unglue [~tristan@lvps176-28-16-172.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:34 sog: 'yay'? what is the game? 07:33:18 This is it: https://code.google.com/p/jp-shmup/ 07:33:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:34:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:35:33 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:38:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-8-242.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:39:28 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-27-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:29 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-27-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:39:29 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:39:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:07 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:43:20 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21689.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:48:46 -!- abeaumont_ is now known as abeaumont 07:50:45 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-skcgzijsimkzcwko] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:51:17 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 07:51:37 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 07:51:56 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:53:39 sog: the video doesn't render here 07:54:17 am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has joined #lisp 07:56:36 sog: manually youtubing worked 07:57:19 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 07:57:58 I was planning on making a nethack clone with lisp but got stuck getting cl-ncurses to work 07:58:34 -!- chr`` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:55 With Weblocks, how are you supposed to cope with schema changes? 08:01:36 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has joined #lisp 08:02:24 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:02:43 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:02:59 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:03:34 theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has joined #lisp 08:07:12 madnificent: What did you think og it? 08:07:19 of it* 08:07:23 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:08:05 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:13:47 nha [~prefect@f052066023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:17 sog: i thought it looked like total chaos and the graphics weren't really awesome. i know it's hard though, and it could be fun to play :) 08:15:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:17:24 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 08:20:13 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mfjswgpbjdroehez] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 08:23:29 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:24:05 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:24:41 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:27:31 poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-70-116-22-88.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 08:29:41 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has left #lisp 08:31:18 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 08:33:11 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:34:14 kanru [~kanru@233.Red-88-7-119.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:59 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:40:56 ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has joined #lisp 08:43:39 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0133.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:25 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:54:23 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-135-199-85.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:56:13 am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has joined #lisp 09:02:23 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 09:04:42 -!- Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:08:02 -!- nha [~prefect@f052066023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:12:23 -!- felher [~whitedrag@fasel.nerd2nerd.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:12:55 felher [~whitedrag@fasel.nerd2nerd.org] has joined #lisp 09:13:07 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:22:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:25:54 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 09:29:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:49 Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:40:00 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:40:55 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 09:42:06 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 09:44:17 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:31 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45:43 Amadiro__ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:46:39 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:07 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:47:10 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:47:31 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:48:12 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:43 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:30 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 09:52:08 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 09:54:19 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:56:59 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:01:56 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:03:07 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:05:03 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:05:05 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:05:07 -!- am0c_ [~am0c@203.246.179.173] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:17 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:13:49 How can I call PQserverVersion with any Lisp implementation with or without using a library? 10:14:14 I looked at some libraries and they were all incomplete as far as I could tell. 10:14:28 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 10:14:29 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 10:15:44 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:29 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:19:08 -!- neomage [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:20:28 whats the cookie-cutter way to scrape html with in CL these days? 10:20:40 *maxm* is bored and gonna give it a try instead of BeatifulSoup 10:20:46 drakma and ? 10:23:15 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:25:19 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:27:22 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:30:23 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:39:38 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 10:39:40 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 10:42:14 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 10:42:40 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 10:45:36 <|3b|> maxm: closure-html maybe? 10:48:45 fasta: I normally do that with a query "select version()" 10:49:39 Xach: never mind and there are better ways to do that. 10:51:30 What? 10:51:35 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-225.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:57 |3b|: thanks added it to check it out.. its basically wrapper on top of cxml if i understand right? 10:52:55 maxm: no. It's a cxml source. 10:53:37 *|3b|* thought it was the html parser from closure browser, but doesn't know anything beyond that 10:53:50 <|3b|> aside from it usually being suggested for html parsing 10:54:52 ah ok, mixed stuff up 10:56:22 snearch [~snearch@f053010102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:44 any "lotsa of syntax sugar" libraries that macro the hell out of xpath and stuff that sit on top of cxml? 10:58:58 ie (with-document ... (find-elements (and (search"xxx" href) (equal class "blah"))) -> seq of dom elements? 10:59:11 I know can roll my own, but in case someone already did 11:00:17 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:00:26 I don't think it gets much more concise than xpath, short of writing a function to do just that. 11:01:24 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:01:24 pkhuong: thanks, roll my own it is I guess.. I got really spoiled by BeatifulSoup I guess 11:01:26 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:02:03 *|3b|* assumes plexippus-xpath isn't what you wanted? 11:02:56 I have not looked at it, last time I had to work with Xpath code from java, left scars that never healed... :-) That was around 2007, so I'll check it out 11:04:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.30] has joined #lisp 11:04:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.61.30] has quit [Changing host] 11:04:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:04:30 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 11:07:29 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:13:00 ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:17:41 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:21:17 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has joined #lisp 11:25:41 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1EB4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:31:24 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-mfjswgpbjdroehez] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:31:28 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 11:37:39 Are there any other FFIs like CFFI? 11:38:10 <|3b|> UFFI is unlike CFFI if that counts 11:38:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-110.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:38:33 <|3b|> various implementation's FFIs might resemble CFFI to various extents 11:38:36 |3b|: by that I mean that it has at least the same level of abstraction and/or usability. 11:38:45 (and interactivity) 11:38:58 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-243-2-126.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 11:39:04 *|3b|* just uses CFFI, so has no idea 11:39:16 I think CFFI is great, btw. 11:39:18 fasta: each implementation has its own FFI. 11:39:44 pkhuong: yeah, but having language specific FFI is a bad idea. 11:39:48 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:40:02 huh? We're only discussing one language here, Common Lisp. 11:40:51 pkhuong: I am talking about + -language. 11:41:15 pkhuong: there is no need for the implementations to be incompatible, witnessed by the existence of CFFI. 11:41:49 I find it interesting that apparently Lisp is the only environment in which something like this has materialized which actually works. 11:42:31 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 11:42:49 I don't follow. CFFI is a portability layer. As such, it mostly supports what feature is available everywhere, and nothing more. 11:42:50 How can I refer to the object returned on the REPL in SLIME again? 11:43:29 With presentation, you can copy/paste. Otherwise, there's *, ** and ***, as specified by the standard. 11:44:08 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@246-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:49 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.105] has joined #lisp 11:45:35 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:46:00 <|3b|> fasta: so you would expect lisps with the ability to have callbacks from arbitrary threads to drop that feature, since some implementations can't do that? 11:46:43 fasta: why interesting ? there's a fixed set of features that good FFIs must have. CFFI is mostly papering over different naming schemes 11:46:43 if Lisp is the only environment in which a portable FFI layer is present that can only mean that the other language implementations have bad FFIs 11:46:45 |3b|: no, I would expect them to write an extension of cffi. 11:46:51 Or lisps that provide static type checking and optimisation to drop that as well? 11:47:01 |3b|: then others can use that language when they grow up. 11:48:01 fasta: do you understand how CFFI works? At its base, it's portability layer over each implementation's FFI. Calling out to foreign code isn't a library feature. 11:48:23 pkhuong: yes, I understand how it works. 11:49:24 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 11:49:49 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:49:52 lisp isn't that unique. some languages like Ada even have the FFI in their standard 11:50:21 Java as well 11:51:41 that's not what we're talking about here 11:51:58 shmore [~shmore@S01060026f31b5d58.hm.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:11 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:52:55 the FFI in not in the CL standard. what other languages have different but equally capable FFIs ? 11:54:18 C. 11:54:26 It isn't in the C standard either. 11:54:42 Except optionally for fortran, iirc. 11:55:02 fe[nl]ix: we can relax that requirement to: what other languages are standardised and aren't dominated by a single implementation. There aren't that many. C, C++, Java, Fortran, Ada, SML? 11:55:19 Zhivago: nope, dlopen is in POSIX 11:55:28 fe[nl]ix: it's also not related to C 11:55:46 C doesn't have FFI, iirc, outside of "remember we add _ before each symbol" 11:56:06 so you can easily link in glue assembly 11:56:51 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:57:37 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:51 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 12:00:06 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:11 cffi is basically a macro system wrapper on top of raw pointers, all it needs from host ffi is a pointer type, and peek/poke type operations on them.. 12:01:07 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:01:13 sbcl ffi tries to be smarter and more integrated into compiler, altho sometimes it does not succeeds spectacularly, and it takes an sbcl innards expert to figure out whats going on.. 12:01:59 fasta: all the (open source) work on a shared FFI for CL has gone in UFFI, and now CFFI. They both build on implementation-specific FFIs, each of which probably dominate CFFI's capabilities, in different ways. 12:02:01 like in my case it was a chance nikodemus seen my ranting, and found that (* t) in sbcl ffi was horribly inefficient, no way I would have found it on my own, the innards are too crazy 12:02:35 Is there some function which gets any object and then shows a human readable representation of that object? 12:02:39 maxm: just use SAPs if there's no type (: 12:02:39 E.g. show from Haskell? 12:02:50 fasta: print. 12:03:02 melontrolly [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:42 a guy asks me whether there are any useful cl benchmarks that he could use to compare x86 clisp and arm clisp on raspi. suggestions? 12:05:27 boinkmarks? 12:05:28 H4ns: an actual application that he uses is the best benchmark, but failing that Qi runs on both, I think. 12:05:30 <|3b|> compile sbcl? :p 12:05:36 *maxm* remember there used to be SBCL performance matrix comparing it to various other implementations on various tasks 12:06:04 H4ns: if you give some automated theorem proving task to Qi, that should give you some insight. 12:06:10 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:11 |3b|: I accedentelly deleted sbcl binary, and tried building it with clisp, after around 3 hours I gave up and downloaded sbcl binary to compile with 12:06:23 pkhuong: thanks 12:07:07 <|3b|> maxm: yeah,that was sort of the idea :) not sure it would cross compile from arm usefully anyway though 12:08:19 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:08:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-242-14-97.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:09:32 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-242-14-97.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:05 H4ns: might have to scale the programs down a bit though. Xof's paper on clustering them may be useful to understand what the numbers mean. Some programs don't exercise what they were originally meant to. 12:10:37 pkhuong: i guess he just wants to get a feel as to whether it makes sense to put more time into this at all. 12:11:43 clisp being an interpreter, I expect same ratio of x86/arm performance as other bytecode interpreter languages.. ie java without jit, or python 12:11:48 pkhuong: he has clisp for armv6 with softfp now and wants to use that to bootstrap sbcl. he is an experienced hacker, so he might actually make some progress. 12:12:35 It's probably easier to cross-compile from x86. It's the same build process, modulo NFS and running the target and host scripts on the right box. 12:13:37 SBCL/softfp, that'll be... fun. 12:16:20 a fpu is actually available on the chip, but i guess that it was easier to compile clisp with fpu emulation. 12:16:37 pnq [~nick@AC81F4DC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:37 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 12:19:10 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:19:29 cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:36 Why don't certain cffi macros work when I put then in a defun? http://paste.debian.net/hidden/7d645a98/ 12:20:08 them* 12:20:26 <|3b|> that function is very odd 12:20:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:20:41 <|3b|> does in-package even do anything when not at top-level? 12:20:41 fasta: grab a book, read about toplevel forms. 12:21:09 pkhuong: I think that breaks abstraction. 12:21:11 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bhtfavbielxbhxue] has joined #lisp 12:21:14 |3b|: sure, just not when fasta expects it to. 12:21:22 <|3b|> reading books breaks abstraction? 12:21:28 No, not reading books. 12:21:36 Don't you consider it a misfeature? 12:21:41 <|3b|> understanding how the language you are using does then? 12:21:50 |3b|: reading books is the blame of all that is wrong. we must burn them all! 12:22:34 <|3b|> *how the language works 12:22:43 I see zero reason for having a concept of top-level forms in the first place. 12:22:55 fasta: you see, that is why you need to learn more. 12:23:05 H4ns: I read PCL years ago. 12:23:28 H4ns: and I know pretty much all CS fundamentals. 12:23:34 <|3b|> so you expect to be able to give instructions to the compiler, from the compiled code? 12:23:44 fasta: that is why you're telling us that lisp is wrong? because you know all? 12:23:48 <|3b|> instructions for compiling the code that is giving the instructions that is 12:24:04 That in-package is a prime example of why toplevel forms are needed. That, or timetravel. 12:24:21 http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/420/BRTky.jpg?1321408042 <-- 12:24:42 <|3b|> top-level defpackage and in-package have side effects that affect compilation 12:24:55 <|3b|> doing little things like telling the compiler how to interpret the following code 12:25:56 <|3b|> sort of like how DEFUN has side effects when used as a top-level form for things like telling the compiler you just defined a function 12:26:04 *|3b|* supposes you would rather avoid that too though 12:26:21 In which package is my user-defined function defined? 12:26:23 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:26:39 <|3b|> pg-version? in whatever package is current when you compiled it 12:26:39 (if any) 12:26:43 I think you read that years ago. 12:26:45 <|3b|> probably cl-user or something 12:27:08 So, where exactly does it go wrong then? 12:27:26 I read the documentation for in-package and it doesn't suggest it should go wrong. 12:27:29 <|3b|> is use-foreign-library defined in that package? 12:27:44 <|3b|> (cl-user or whatever *package* is when you compile that file) 12:27:59 <|3b|> note that your CFFI-USER package isn't defined until you /run/ pg-version 12:28:16 <|3b|> nor is that IN-PACKAGE call evaluated until you run PG-VERSION 12:28:26 |3b|: yes 12:28:30 <|3b|> by which time the entire function has been read in some other package 12:28:44 and so all the symbols in that function are also in the other package 12:29:20 <|3b|> well, if cl-user::user-foreign-library is defined usefully, you didn't show us all the code, since nothing in that paste will define it 12:29:48 |3b|: I understand what you mean now, but that seem rather odd semantics. 12:30:02 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:30:31 fasta: it is just odd because you don't understand it. to me, it is very natural and logical. 12:30:38 <|3b|> there are lots of odd things in CL, many of them have very good (if not obvious) reasons , some are just odd for historical reasons... either way the spec isn't changing any time soon, so better to just use the language rather than fight it 12:30:48 Certainly more logical than any alternative I can see. 12:31:17 This basically means that inlining already doesn't work. 12:31:21 if you defpackage at the top level, you could then refer to cffi-user::my-symbols in the appropriate places 12:31:32 what? Inlining works fine. 12:31:39 No, it does not. 12:31:48 All I did was add the defun; before it worked. 12:31:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-188.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:07 Wrapping around a defun changes semantics in CL. 12:32:16 I cannot imagine how you think that's a good thing. 12:32:19 <|3b|> fasta: would you expect wrapping an arbitrary C program in main() { } to work? 12:32:19 The word you're looking for is substitution. 12:32:26 /o\ 12:32:30 And it's *necessary*, because things happen in different phases. 12:32:53 <|3b|> and it is sort of the point for DEFUN to change the semantics 12:33:06 I believe PCL introduces the concepts of read-time, macroexpansion-time, and runtime fairly early. 12:33:42 pkhuong: yes, and I know all of those concepts. 12:33:49 <|3b|> (print "foo") by itself should print something, i'm pretty sure (defun foo () (print "foo")) shouldn't print anything 12:34:08 |3b|: no, put that + (foo), should. 12:34:11 but* 12:34:14 <|3b|> right 12:34:22 |3b|: which _is_not_ the case. 12:34:29 <|3b|> but you tried to use the side effects before you ran the function 12:34:59 <|3b|> (defun foo () (defpackage ...)) shouldn't define a package until you run it 12:35:09 fasta: defpackage *will* work when executed from a function. It will however not work before that function is run, e.g. while that function's source is being read. 12:35:17 <|3b|> so IN-PACKAGE can't make it active 12:35:27 <|3b|> and shouldn't anyway, since you didn't run the function yet 12:35:35 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:35:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-195.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:35:50 <|3b|> so the reader can't very well read the next forms in that package 12:36:13 <|3b|> especially since you combined them all into one form, so the READer already finished reading them before it even saw the DEFUN 12:36:31 <|3b|> (the last 'it' being the compiler or evaluator) 12:37:30 Can you explain the reason for why it doesn't work in this specific case shortly? 12:37:52 or succintly would perhaps be a better word 12:37:54 fasta: we just did: the DEFUN form is read before being macroexpanded and evaluated. 12:38:49 That's not an explanation. 12:38:58 ok. 12:39:11 fasta is expecting the kind of late binding that e.g. python has 12:39:15 it's very amusing :D 12:39:58 fe[nl]ix: huh? python's string->variable lookup happens at runtime? 12:40:05 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128124245.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 12:40:09 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bhtfavbielxbhxue] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:40:49 FWIW, wrapping those forms in a PROGN doesn't work either. 12:40:52 <|3b|> fasta: lisp READs each form in the file, then evaluates it 12:41:05 <|3b|> fasta: READ interns symbols in the current *PACKAGE* 12:41:08 asvil [~asvil@178.121.117.160] has joined #lisp 12:41:19 |3b|: I'm sure he knows all this already. 12:41:32 <|3b|> IN-PACKAGE changes the current package when evaluated 12:41:51 <|3b|> DEF-PACKAGE creates a package when evaluated 12:42:25 <|3b|> note that the first bit was READ form, evaluate form, READ next form, evaluate next form, etc 12:43:30 pkhuong: IIRC, in cpython the run-time lexical environment is actually a special hash table 12:43:33 <|3b|> so you previously had 5 forms: (DEFPACKAGE...), (IN-PACKAGE ..., (DEFINE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY ...), (USE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY ...), (LET ...) 12:44:10 <|3b|> so each of those was evaluated before the next was READ 12:44:10 fe[nl]ix: so import statements affect previously-defined functions? 12:44:35 pkhuong: I'm not sure about that 12:44:50 <|3b|> so by the time DEFINE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY is READ, the current *PACKAGE* has been changed to :CFFI-USER 12:45:07 fe[nl]ix: the run-time global environment in CL is a special hash table as well. 12:45:15 <|3b|> when you wrap them all in DEFUN, the whole DEFUN form is READ, in whatever *PACKAGE* was current when you loaded the file 12:45:40 <|3b|> so DEFINE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY is interned into that package, which probably hasn't imported CFFI:DEFINE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY 12:45:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:46:45 <|3b|> so when you call the function, it creates a package, makes that package current (which affects future calls to READ, but not already READ code), then it tries to call WHATEVER-PACKAGE::DEFINE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY, which as mentioned previously probably isn't CFFI:DEFINE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY 12:46:47 pkhuong: but you can have the equivalent of (defun foo () (voodoo) (print v)) and if you run #'foo twice, the first time you may get that «v» is not defined, but the second time it works because #'voodoo changed the activation record of #'foo 12:47:05 *|3b|* gives up if that wasn't enough, or was too verbose to quilify or whatever 12:47:12 How can I implement fixed point algorithms in cl the best way? Do I have to round every result and then give type hints? 12:47:21 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.203.251] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 pkhuong: if you don't care about performance, it may even be considered a cool thing to have 12:47:52 ukscone [~Russell@cpe-69-203-148-90.si.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 <|3b|> sepi: fixed point for performance or for precision concerns? 12:48:16 fe[nl]ix: ah, "interesting" (: 12:48:19 |3b|: that was an explanation. Thanks. I think OCaml does things more 'sanely', though. 12:48:25 sepi: same as any other language. 12:48:32 <|3b|> for the former, you want implementation specific stuff, for the latter, rationals might be better 12:48:40 fasta: OCaml doesn't have macros. 12:48:47 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:49:00 <|3b|> fasta: can you compile things at runtime in ocaml, or run arbitrary code during compilation? 12:49:06 *|3b|* hasn't even looked at ocaml 12:49:15 |3b|: the latter yes. 12:49:15 <|3b|> or modify the reader at runtime? 12:49:43 |3b|: but the features that we were talking about can be done without macros. 12:49:45 hi all -- is it "really" true that noone has ever ported SBCL to an arm processor? 12:49:55 |3b|: mostly precision 12:49:57 ukscone: yo! 12:50:02 ukscone: not that we know of. 12:50:16 |3b|: macros really are not needed for a decent scoping mechanism. 12:50:20 pkhuong: well, afaik there are no fixed point operators in cl 12:50:25 ok i now have so many arm processors around the place it does look like a good project 12:50:27 fasta: you can write anything in c, too. 12:50:47 i haven't used lisp in 20+ years but famous last words "HOW hard can it be?" :) 12:50:50 H4ns: your replies are as obnoxious as pkhuong's. 12:50:55 <|3b|> fasta: well, unless you have a time machine, it's too late to fix it 12:51:24 sepi: sorry, I've been doing too much math lately. You want to implement algorithms that use fixed-point arithmetic. Probably best to round at each step. 12:51:29 <|3b|> fasta: people who complain about languages they don't know how to use yet are a bit obnoxious too, and #lisp sees quite a few of them so has a low tolerance 12:51:33 |3b|: well, I could of course always redefine in-package. 12:51:40 ukscone: some other lisps might work though, like clisp, ecl (not saying you shouldn't port sbcl :) 12:51:52 fasta: and you might then understand why your example can't work. 12:52:02 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:52:06 clisp does i built it today only thing screwy so far is ffi 12:52:12 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:22 pkhuong: I already indicated that I understand it fully before, thanks to |3b|. 12:52:32 <|3b|> fasta: actually, you can't redefine cl:in-package 12:52:42 clisp is in the debian armel repos but was armv6 so rebuilt for arm1176jzf-s last night with softfp and all seems good 12:52:43 |3b|: uh, WHAT!?! 12:52:56 <|3b|> per the spec, you can't redefine anything in CL 12:53:02 pkhuong: ok, so if I do this and add the proper type annotations, sbcl will also use native fixed point math? 12:53:06 s/armv6/armv4 12:53:13 <|3b|> you can make your own in-package though, but i wouldn't call that "redefining" 12:53:27 sepi: no. I don't know that SBCL runs on any architecture with native fixed point arithmetic either. 12:53:31 <|3b|> wher "anything in CL" means "anything in the CL package" 12:53:39 <|3b|> you can redefine anything else all you want 12:54:01 although i'm not sure how well it compares on a 700mhz arm processor compared to something x86 but it runs at least passes all the tests in make check 12:54:25 pkhuong: well I mean integer arithmetic. The fixed point part is just an interpretation issue, isn't it? 12:55:21 If you use integer arithmetic on small enough values, SBCL will compile that to native arithmetic. 12:55:34 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:28 ok. Is there by chance a free library that implements fixed point math? I guess it wouldn't garantee to be fast though. 12:58:07 the big difference between OCaml's macros and CL's is that CL's macro are namespaced, so READing must happen before macroexpansion. In contrast, camlp5-style macros happen *before* the namespacing logic kicks in, so the implementation can handle scoping directives while parsing. 12:58:48 also when I do some kind of modulo and rounding accompanied by type annotations and high optimization level, will this result in near c numerical performance? 12:58:59 not that I need that. I'm just wondering 12:59:18 sepi: not for signed arithmetic. 12:59:27 springz [~springz@118.26.56.180] has joined #lisp 13:00:01 pkhuong: aha, why is that? 13:00:21 because no one's bothered to implement it yet. 13:00:34 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-225.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:01:13 pkhuong: ok, I t 13:01:28 pkhuong: I thought it might be a more fundamental problem 13:01:40 thanks for your help :) 13:02:49 punee_ [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:21 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:04:01 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 13:05:16 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 13:05:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:07:36 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:02 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:11:38 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:12:48 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:15 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rspxdbmaavjcnymd] has joined #lisp 13:14:48 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:18:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:45 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:20:43 hi 13:22:13 istr some quasi-package-system that deferred resolution until runtime. The name escapes me. 13:22:29 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:25:05 How can I load the fixed version of the code I had shown above in e.g. ecl? 13:25:28 It tells me that package QL isn't known or something like that. 13:25:51 sykopomp: ron garret's lexicons? 13:26:22 that one 13:26:35 thanks! 13:26:47 fasta: load quicklisp before loading the file. 13:31:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:44 Is there any CL implementation which can run my example script within 30ms or something like that? 13:32:03 Because ecl takes aeons to load everything. 13:32:08 sbcl takes seconds. 13:32:15 fasta: dump an image 13:32:29 fasta: i use buildapp with sbcl, that works well. 13:32:56 <|3b|> ccl compiles very quickly, not sure if it is fast enough for you or not 13:33:36 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:40 *|3b|* just runs things in long-running lisp instances, so hasn't compared startup times 13:34:29 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.250.111] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:36:36 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:37:55 fasta: you could have a background instance running that just gets the arguments to process 13:38:26 flip214: yes, that would also be ok. I.e. an sbcl daemon. 13:38:41 fasta: CL implementations are not designed or optimized for scripts. for fast startup use perl 13:41:15 at one time clisp used to be comparable to perl re startup time 13:41:30 haven't seen any tests of that in recent years 13:41:54 All CL implementations start very fast. 13:42:09 Fewer can compile/load code quickly and quietly. 13:42:33 you still can compile an executable binary with ECL e.g. 13:42:43 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 I've not done that (yet) myself though 13:43:11 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 LiamH [~healy@pc2.shin-miyakohotels-unet.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:44:19 -!- Amadiro__ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:23 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tsyyxfbjktdokwie] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:46:17 I have 3 ms for perl and 7 ms for SBCL here. 13:47:14 pkhuong: that's not what we're talking about 13:48:09 try loading a few libraries, even if just loading fasls and it's not 7ms any more 13:48:18 fe[nl]ix: sure. like Xach said, it starts very fast. 13:48:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:38 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:48:40 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:49:40 even loading a file as text is pretty slow :~( 13:50:00 |3b|: how exactly do you run a script like file into one of your 'long running instances'? 13:50:42 that's not what most people mean by "starting", that is the time between execution and when the program is loaded and the entry point function runs 13:50:43 fasta: with C-x C-e, mostly. 13:51:01 <|3b|> yeah, tell slime to evaluate a file, or just call a function 13:51:16 |3b|: the point is that these scripts run non-interactively. 13:51:30 Or rather, part of a sequence of such non-interactive programs. 13:51:45 fasta: if you were really industrious, you could call into the lisp via swank or similar via a tiny shell wrapper 13:51:50 and had need to 13:51:52 or you could save a core. 13:52:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 13:52:10 fe[nl]ix: and that's exactly what one gets when they follow H4ns's suggestion. 13:52:10 <|3b|> yeah, if i needed fast-starting programs i'd create a binary 13:52:15 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:52:28 <|3b|> or just program the sequence into a lisp program and let it run 13:52:44 Yes, I already got buildapp installed. 13:54:05 -!- melontrolly [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has left #lisp 13:55:38 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 AeroNotix [~xeno@bde91.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:57:29 -!- kanru [~kanru@233.Red-88-7-119.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:00:14 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:03:39 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:20 Is there also a --be-quiet-and-I-mean-it option for ccl? 14:04:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:04:28 I already have -Q and --batch. 14:05:53 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rspxdbmaavjcnymd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:07:12 -!- drewc [~user@212.110.167.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:03 drewc [~user@212.110.167.245] has joined #lisp 14:14:44 -!- LiamH [~healy@pc2.shin-miyakohotels-unet.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:15:35 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:21 steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-cyyauwrzsvyhjukd] has joined #lisp 14:17:05 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.117.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81F4DC.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:20:59 -!- PseudoMander [~PseudoMan@101.165.37.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:58 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:44 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 14:23:01 rats 14:23:36 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:24:03 running the cl-benchmarks http://emarsden.chez.com/downloads/cl-bench.tar.gz and after about an hour it bombs out on string concat :( 14:24:23 === running # 14:24:23 *** - string too long: desired length 6553600 exceeds the supported maximum length 14:24:31 ugh 14:24:36 -!- denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qseijaqggoisqhlg] has quit [] 14:24:52 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evocfhpvkwdvazsd] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 -!- denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evocfhpvkwdvazsd] has quit [Changing host] 14:24:52 denysonique [u484@unaffiliated/dennisonicc] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 -!- denysonique [u484@unaffiliated/dennisonicc] has quit [Changing host] 14:24:52 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evocfhpvkwdvazsd] has joined #lisp 14:26:20 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-119-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:38 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bde91.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 14:28:26 ukscone: which implementation is that? 14:30:07 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-119-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:22 dlowe: clisp from http://www.clisp.org/ 14:31:36 ah. not terribly surprising. 14:31:43 -!- cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:44 probably not :) just wanted something to compare it on a 700mhz armv6 to something more usual so i had an indication of how well lisp will run on an arm processor before putting in all the work to get sbcl on arm 14:33:29 clisp is so far the only "real" lisp i have working on arm, have got newlisp working except for the gui stuff but H4ns tells me that is considered a toy :) 14:33:42 -!- wingy [~wingie@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 14:34:21 newlisp has some interesting ideas in it. 14:34:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:33 and with clisp trying to get it to use ffi is no go atm, want to try it with a selfbuilt lib first though rather than the repo one just incase that is the [roblem 14:34:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:03 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:35:36 Zhivago: it looked interesting when i built it and if it didn't use java (i think it does) for the gui stuff it might be a good teaching lang to start kids of with on the raspberry pi but java/jvm is no go on the raspberry pi atm 14:36:01 that is why clojure is going to be probably no-go too 14:36:04 Is there a way to recover source code from an image? 14:36:24 And more importantly to remove such source code from an image. 14:36:43 (in for example sbcl) 14:36:49 fe[nl]ix: then you should compare apples to apples, and load the same program in perl and clisp. I'd propose to implement a CL in perl, to see how fast perl can load the same CL program as clsip. 14:37:12 fasta: in ECL you can compile to a executable ... there shouldn't be any traces of source left 14:37:21 pjb: seem like you'd be comparing perl and C there, not perl and CL 14:37:34 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.27] has joined #lisp 14:37:35 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.27] has quit [Changing host] 14:37:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:37:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zpesbefhjnbaqwlr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:37:41 sbcl might leak some parts that got stored for inline expansion, AFAIU 14:38:10 fasta: I think you'll pretty much always be stuck with constants like symbol names, quoted lists, etc 14:38:11 dlowe: I don't enter into those low level details. fe[nl]ix asked to compare loading a program I'm just saying if you want that, you should load the SAME program. 14:38:26 dlowe: well, you could obfuscate those ;) 14:38:52 ukscone: clisp uses the ffcall library to implement FFI. 14:38:59 ukscone: clisp is named clisp because it's written in C. 14:39:09 ukscone: and as hinted previously, C doesn't have FFI! 14:39:23 ukscone: therefore we have to use a library such as ffcall in the case of clisp to implement FFI. 14:39:39 ukscone: so to get FFI support on ARM, you should work on the ffcall library. 14:39:44 Is there an IRC reader that associates lines to individual threads, ie. discussions between nick groups? 14:39:54 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 14:39:55 The SBCL buildapp created file runs faster than a sh version, btw. 14:39:56 would be useful here, with several discussions in parallel 14:40:11 That's fast enough. 14:40:48 flip214: you could rather easily add that to erc. 14:40:57 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:20 flip214: when is something a nick group? 14:41:35 fasta: for what task? 14:41:39 flip214: i.e. what happens when there is cross group communication. 14:41:47 fasta: when I answer to you like this, I enter the fasta-pjb nick group. 14:41:56 fasta: when a nickname is mentioned in a line 14:42:10 fasta: and since you told flip214 about nick group, we're actually in the (fasta pjb flip214) group. 14:42:31 Xach: for getting a version number out of libpq vs getting it via psql via sh. 14:42:33 flip214: if you add common significant words, you can have larger groups. 14:42:39 fasta: well, some more intelligence could be added ... 14:42:51 flip214: how's your sister? 14:43:05 flip214: now about the project X, I think you should implement the procedure P. 14:43:17 Oops! Three threads! 14:43:29 Xach: I wanted to evaluate Lisp practicality again. 14:43:51 Xach: the only thing I am not so sure about is Ecl. 14:44:03 pjb: ok ffcall on arm "looks" like it might be a good first step to get my hands dirty as reading the SBCL internals do & looking at the source i suddenly remembered i have housework to do that might be less work :) 14:44:08 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:36 ukscone: on the other hand, ecl might be easier to run on arm, you only need a gcc that targets arm. 14:45:02 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:45:15 Why is porting so hard? Isn't it a matter of just saying to add two numbers use 'OPADD', etc. 14:45:43 If there are lots of primitives, or a completely wrong memory model, then there would be a problem. 14:46:13 pjb: well, I wouldn't go for plain words ... with enough raw data, something like SVD might work nicely 14:46:13 -!- cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:46:38 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 14:47:12 fasta: well, the problem I see is that implementations are implementation specific, non modular and "over" optimized. 14:47:28 pjb: back to a common lisp core idea? 14:47:29 fasta: that is: they don't plan for modularity and ease of retargetting. 14:48:06 Now of course, implementations that target several processors will accomodate a new one more easaily, but for optimization reasons, it may still not be too modular, and it may still be a lot of work to retarget. 14:48:11 pjb: it would be something I would do (and I would make sure that any arch would be able to compile to any arch) 14:48:29 *dlowe* bets just about every implementation *started* as a kernel compiler with a lot of modularity 14:49:01 dlowe: Yep. In presence of new processors and platforms, it's an obsessing thought. 14:50:30 fasta: it might not be but if it wasn't i'd have excpected it to have already been done as it's not as if arm is a rare processor but as noone else has done it i'm not going to say it's easy until i have had a good look and dig around 14:50:52 ukscone: well, the problem is that there are variants of arm. ccl runs on arm. 7. 14:51:08 nyef was doing an arm port and ran out of steam 14:51:22 it was armv5, though 14:52:01 With compilers, one of the hardest problems for modularity is error reporting. 14:52:33 Ideally, you'd write a bunch of simple compilers, each with a single target, and chain them together. 14:53:19 pjb: yes lots of variants but on the whole they are backward compatable and if you aren't playing with things like blinky lights and gpio most stuff is pretty portable e.g. my armv6 devices will run any binaries built for arm devices <= armv6 14:53:59 and an armv7 <= armv7 -- ok fp hw is a problem but on the whole soft float armv4 binaries especially static will run on any arm device 14:54:27 ukscone: assuming you have softp ABI 14:55:16 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 14:56:26 -!- zealousJavelin [~niksaak@94.27.88.228] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:57:09 p_l|backup: ok i will admit fp is a pain in the butt with portability but as hardfp distros aren't that common it's not that much of a problem and a quick rebuilt in that case will normally be ok and you just have two binaries & choose the one you need, ok will admit that it's not as clean as x86 or other processor families but it's not that bad either 14:58:25 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:25 think of arm beign more like the 80s and 8bit processors. yes z80 assembler won't run on 6502 but if you wrote in C or Pascal or .... then it was normally a recompile as long as you didn't go to lowlevel hardware 14:58:56 There's no IRQ to hook soft FP in? 14:59:06 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:59:16 arm has 3 fp modes 14:59:18 pjb: that's hardfp mode 14:59:36 it's just that there's hook to put emulator in-between 14:59:58 you have softfp, hardfp, and hardware fp with softfp ABI 14:59:58 soft (software emulation), softfp (hardware emu but use soft abi) & hard (hardware & use hard abi 15:00:36 Like on the old MacOS :-) 15:01:14 anyway this looks like it'll be a good summer project even if it drives me nuts. i'll get down and dirty with arm, get back up to speed with lisp (been 20 years or so) and it'll keep me off the streets 15:01:59 out of that dangerous sunlight and fresh air 15:02:34 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:03:20 taliing of sunshine and fresh air it's going to be 95 degrees in an hour or so i'd better go and get the shopping done before it gets to hot & i ,melt 15:08:36 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-8-159-6.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 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#lisp 16:04:03 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-21-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:12:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:15 pnq [~nick@ACA24A69.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:46 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:17:10 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:18:30 cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.151.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:11 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:29:37 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.149] has joined #lisp 16:31:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:21 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 16:38:03 -!- cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:38:23 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:05 ahh it's a wonderful day 16:39:55 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24A69.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:39:59 good morning starshine~ 16:40:12 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 16:40:45 the earth says hello 16:40:52 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:43:07 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:50:28 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 16:53:27 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 16:53:33 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 16:53:41 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:09 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:10 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:26 This would actually be a good place to ask: is anyone already working on a modern port of SHRDLU? 16:59:53 don't see the percentage in that 17:00:12 12:41 < dnm> I think it'll be better to port. 17:00:12 12:41 <@newsham> oh i think a port is a great idea. esp because it would be great to have it run in a web browser 17:00:58 what would be the end goal here? 17:01:47 Whoa, I didn't even know I copied that, let alone pasted it here. 17:01:52 *dnm* blames fingers 17:02:15 dlowe: Anyway, I think the end goal is novelty of live experimentation with it. 17:02:27 For those that haven't seen it/played with it. 17:02:43 In my mind, it's like a live online museum exhibit. 17:02:55 I don't think there's necessarily any immediate practical takeaway. 17:03:56 museum exhibits are neat :D 17:04:14 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 17:04:42 This sounds worth doing for its own sake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHRDLU#Excerpt 17:04:44 AeroNotix [~xeno@bde91.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 I wonder if any MUDs are this smart... 17:10:12 saage [~saage@187.55.65.240] has joined #lisp 17:10:13 -!- saage [~saage@187.55.65.240] has quit [Changing host] 17:10:13 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:07 -!- ignas__ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:13:08 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:13:22 they would be very, very simple MUDs 17:13:42 One of the points of SHRDLU is that its world is extremely constrained 17:17:41 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:58 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.203.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:00 deterministic and contained 17:25:16 and with total knowledge 17:26:00 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:26:08 cheezus1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.103.246] has joined #lisp 17:27:56 -!- cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:28:32 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-009-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:35 benatkin [~bat@68-71-141-194.servers.zerigo.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 17:33:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:41 Razz [~tim@46.4.112.245] has joined #lisp 17:34:07 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host113-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host 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[~no@host-92-8-159-6.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 17:46:58 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-159-6.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:04 Kenjin [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:59:57 Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:55 dnm: perhaps there's something like SHRDLU in the AIMA or PAIP code? 18:00:55 -!- Kenjin [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:35 danishman [~kvirc@62.243.156.218] has joined #lisp 18:01:52 icrazyhack [horieyui@202.120.202.55] has joined #lisp 18:07:38 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-20-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 18:08:34 eaxxae [~eaxxae@unaffiliated/eaxxae] has joined #lisp 18:09:49 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 -!- lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: fuzzy logic] 18:11:53 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 18:12:48 lcc [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 18:17:11 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:26 -!- icrazyhack [horieyui@202.120.202.55] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 18:19:01 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:20:06 pjb: afaik not. but one can get CL-compiled, text-only shrdlu 18:20:42 Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-119.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:50 Kenjin [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:32:27 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 18:32:27 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 18:32:27 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 18:34:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@46.184.191.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:26 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:36:04 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-009-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:37:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-190-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:54 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-009-185.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:34 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:45 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 18:46:08 -!- Kenjin [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:55 something is tripping mods! 18:48:01 Kenjin [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:24 -!- Kenjin [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:30 AndChat|736049 [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:54:11 using paiprolog how does one state rules? 18:54:33 look in the examples 18:55:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:06 -!- AndChat|736049 [~Kenjin@bl8-29-202.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:05:25 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:06:18 -!- cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has left #lisp 19:07:04 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 19:07:11 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 19:07:11 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 19:09:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 19:10:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:10:44 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 19:11:13 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 pjb: can you tell me if any lisps barf on this form? (defpackage foo (:use) (:nicknames :bar) (:nicknames :bar)) 19:12:21 None on this system. 19:13:29 Thanks. Can someone with LispWorks give it a whirl? 19:14:56 On MacOSX Lispworks PE: duplicated names in FOO defpackage: BAR. 19:15:22 That's the only one. (I'll have to see how to invoke it in batch for my clall command) 19:15:48 Suthe [~Suthe@20.Red-83-33-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:25:57 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:57 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:57 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 19:29:39 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:59 pjb: what is your current installed list? :) 19:31:39 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-169-88-121.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:27 *dim* has ccl 1.7 and 1.8, clisp, cmucl, ecl and sbcl apparently, but only uses ccl 1.8 19:33:42 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:04 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:35:26 -!- KindOne [KindOne@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has quit [Changing host] 19:35:26 KindOne [KindOne@happy/birthday/kindone] has joined #lisp 19:36:41 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:55 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-169-88-121.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 19:43:47 Xach: Curious if there was a context for the (defpackage foo ... ) from earlier ? 19:44:04 *drewc* knows what the context is! :) 19:44:20 mon_key: cl-cairo2 has a similar form and it causes lispworks to barf. a user reported it to the quicklisp list. 19:44:26 i filed a cl-cairo2 bug as a result 19:44:32 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:43 i can't see any point in having defpackage like that, even if it doesn't make any other impl barf 19:44:54 Xach: Thanks curiousity squashed (: 19:46:19 NichardRixon [~nichard@c-24-125-33-174.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:31 -!- NichardRixon [~nichard@c-24-125-33-174.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:48:39 Heh looks like maybe fixed already too. 19:49:35 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:11 god bless you, open source fairy! 19:52:34 -!- KindOne [KindOne@happy/birthday/kindone] has left #lisp 19:54:17 sergio_101 [~user@rrcs-24-106-142-62.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:38 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.45.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:28 -!- danishman [~kvirc@62.243.156.218] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:58:37 nha [~prefect@f052237138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:40 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-169-88-121.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:28 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:02:29 -!- sog [~riz@108.82.77.60] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 20:03:55 dribble doesn't work for me inside slime. is this a known issue? it works if I run the repl from the command line. 20:06:08 faheem: I guess it's not surprising, indeed. 20:06:15 slime redirects streams, just like dribble 20:06:17 faheem: SLIME uses its own REPL. 20:06:34 faheem: you can save the repl buffer. with C-x C-s 20:07:42 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:08:16 pjb: Ok, thanks. 20:09:05 pkhuong: Ok, thanks. 20:09:36 spree [spree@109.58.33.182.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:09:55 so what you have you guys coded in lisp? 20:10:14 spree: http://cliki.net gives the list. 20:11:18 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:15:13 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-169-88-121.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 20:17:19 nightfly [sage@serenity.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 20:17:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:21:16 I'm fairly new to this language. So, (postmodern:sql (:select '* :from 'images)) works but passing a list (postmodern:sql (list :select '* :from 'images)) doesn't. How can I parse list to a function/macro like this and have it treated as a form? 20:21:38 s/parse/pass/ 20:21:47 a good tutorial for common lisp? let, input, output etc 20:22:23 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 20:22:32 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:18 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 20:23:24 why do you prefer scheme over common lisp? smaller and cleaner? 20:23:40 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-119.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:53 Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-119.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:11 rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-153-132.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:24:29 spree: you wouldn't 20:24:38 ,yow 20:25:04 lol 20:25:06 We don't. 20:25:15 nayyyyy! 20:25:29 spree: good tutorials are on http://cliki.net 20:25:45 nightfly: you can use s-sql:sql-compile 20:26:01 hmm i use slime but the eval-defun etc options in the menu are grey/nonclickable...why? 20:26:09 -!- eni [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26:16 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Quit: xaxisx] 20:26:20 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:26:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:08 how do i actually run a program without the repl? 20:27:28 Why do you want to do that? 20:27:32 you use a cow! 20:27:48 before the cart! 20:27:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:52 lol 20:28:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 -!- Suthe [~Suthe@20.Red-83-33-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:42 spree: depends on the implementation you're using. but something like sbcl --load "my-file.lisp" --eval "(my-package:main)" could do the trick. there are scripts that package it up for you. 20:30:28 spree: often the core itself (with everything loaded in it) is dumped and started like that. i often see the repl being alive though. in web applications, for instance, it can be handy. 20:31:03 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-169-88-121.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:38 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:31:43 cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:09 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-153-132.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:50 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:18 i just want to do like shift-enter or something and load my file into the repl, isnt that possibelk with slime? 20:37:33 C-c C-l 20:38:03 not connected 20:38:27 spree: (global-set-key (kbd "S-RET") 'slime-load-file) too. 20:38:29 so whats the problem here, inferior-lisp process isnt connected to slime? how do i connect them? 20:38:37 M-x slime RET 20:38:51 are there any guis for common lisp? 20:38:58 is there a simple C ffi? 20:39:03 Yes, there are. See http://cliki.net 20:39:07 Yes, there is. See http://cliki.net 20:39:08 clim 20:39:25 spree: fuck it's even named cffi! 20:40:34 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-229-86-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:42:03 (global-set-key (kbd "S-RET") 'slime-load-file) //// in .emacs? 20:42:17 Yes 20:44:44 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:45:57 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:03 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:19 cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:40 -!- eaxxae [~eaxxae@unaffiliated/eaxxae] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting] 20:48:43 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.103.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:50:07 M-x slime should connect. If it doesn't, look in the *inferior-lisp* buffer for an error message. A fair number of people have reported success with CommonQt here. And CFFI is a simple portability layer on top of most existing implementations' FFI. 20:50:55 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:51:45 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:41 thanks it works 21:01:55 cheezus1 [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:10 Zeedox [DanDan@h-208-182.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:03:29 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.5.223.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:08 how would i do a while and a let together? 21:05:13 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:43 (while (not (= x 3)) (prompt-read x)) 21:05:43 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Quit: Huh.] 21:05:46 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:23 can anyone how they have gained a lot by syntactic abstraction/macros? 21:08:09 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-bgcqyyeqyjypnbox] has joined #lisp 21:09:18 meiji11 [~user@S0106f8d111247e29.mh.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:01 spree: you accidentally the verb? 21:10:09 rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-153-132.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:10:52 i dont see how to combine while and let 21:11:15 is there something like struct in c in lisp? 21:11:17 there is no WHILE in CL. 21:11:28 what language are you trying to program here? 21:11:56 spree: (loop for x = (prompt-read) until (= x 3) do (print x)) 21:12:49 hi 21:12:58 I just published a new library, asdf-finalizers 21:13:02 which I think is cool 21:13:20 why would you think that? 21:13:20 Fare: what's it do? 21:13:26 Problem: the name FINALIZE is too common and overloaded, so I'd like to have a different name for the API. 21:13:46 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:13:51 guthur: allows you to defer fixup forms for compilation at the toplevel within the current file 21:14:05 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-153-132.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:07 errors out if you fail to call the (FINALIZE) form to evaluate your fixups 21:14:22 -!- sergio_101 [~user@rrcs-24-106-142-62.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:08 has an EVAL-AT-TOPLEVEL (form &optional already-done-p warning &rest warning-arguments) function to help with defmacros or deftypes that require such fixup forms. 21:16:06 example application is monomorphic list types with LIST-OF 21:17:09 e.g. (typep '(1 0 0 1) '(list-of (integer 0 1))) 21:17:30 expands to a satisfies type 21:17:52 which require the according defun to be evaluated 21:18:08 what about FIXUP-FORMS instead of FINALIZE ? 21:18:41 or FINAL-FORMS ? 21:20:12 so list-of essentially pushes a defun to be included in the expansion of (FINAL-FORMS) 21:20:41 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:41 is there a case or at least something better than if else (if else ( if else...? 21:21:12 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:33 spree: COND doesn't work for you? 21:21:44 cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:32 ah 21:22:36 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 21:22:36 and what about structs? 21:22:42 don't use them 21:22:42 what about them. 21:22:43 records 21:22:48 don't use them 21:22:52 see defclass 21:22:53 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 21:22:56 what do i use then? 21:23:01 spree use defclass or index into an array 21:23:05 defclass 21:23:38 spree: http://gigamonkeys.com/book for any other questions you may have 21:26:41 -!- spree [spree@109.58.33.182.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:53 spree [spree@109.58.33.182.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 21:27:28 FINAL-FORMS ? TOPLEVEL-FORMS ? TOPLEVEL-FIXUPS ? 21:27:34 what shall I call this macro? 21:27:36 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:52 THE-END-FORMS 21:27:57 nah 21:28:00 ;) 21:28:03 (THE-END) ? 21:28:05 FINAL-FORMS 21:28:06 meh 21:28:11 asdf-dirty-hacks 21:28:33 sykopomp, sometimes, better dirty hacks than no hacks at all. 21:29:48 Fare: HAPPY-ENDING 21:30:15 short of hijacking the reader (as with reader-interception), that's the best I can do to ensure any cleanups / fixups / postludes are evaluated. 21:30:28 (enforcement through asdf-finalizers) 21:30:36 sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:36 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:31:34 how do i do newline since \n doesnt work in format 21:31:42 ~% 21:31:47 or a literal newline 21:31:54 literal? 21:31:57 see also ~& 21:31:57 newline 21:31:58 " 21:31:59 " 21:31:59 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:03 spree: sykopomp linked you to an excellent resource for these types of questions 21:32:32 \#Newline 21:32:41 spree: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 21:32:41 21:32:52 FINAL-FORMS so far 21:33:52 Fare: FINALLY-FORMS 21:34:49 Fare: whatever you choose, don't declare it final until a few people start using it and report on the results 21:35:10 spree: you are asking very basic questions that go beyond the understandable need for clarification. 21:35:18 can i just pull and install everything for hunchentoot in an easy way? 21:35:47 spree: http://quicklisp.org is good for that 21:35:49 fe[nl]ix, ok. I'm changing from FINALIZE (that already clashes with the code base at work) to FINAL-FORMS. 21:35:58 for now. 21:36:05 spree: (ql:quickload 'hunchentoot) once you've installed it. 21:36:16 spree: install quicklisp. then (ql:quickload 'hunchentoot). done. and please read a book 21:37:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: brb want unicode] 21:37:56 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:57 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:37:57 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:39:37 ianmcorvidae: do you have unicode now? 21:43:08 rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-153-132.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:43:09 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:43:49 sykopomp: I do! I have to start screen right or it screws up unicode :/ 21:44:06 no doubt I should just use tmux or such but thus far I've been lazy :) 21:45:49 notzmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has joined #lisp 21:46:13 -!- notzmv is now known as Guest35374 21:46:33 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:46:35 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 21:46:40 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 21:46:40 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 21:46:40 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 21:50:02 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-153-132.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:15 rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-154-210.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:54:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:54:38 zbigniew [~zb@2600:3c02:e000:3::8] has joined #lisp 21:56:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:59:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:59:36 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:49 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:01:31 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:13 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:15 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:58 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:07:51 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:09:29 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-135-199-85.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: mcstar] 22:10:20 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:11:03 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:11:43 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:04 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:12:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-195.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:36 Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading `c:/Users/staffan/AppData/Roaming/.emacs': 22:13:36 Symbol's function definition is void: ql:add-to-init-file 22:13:53 quicklisp works 22:13:56 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:28 S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-216-249-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:40 *headslap' 22:14:48 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-216-249-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:14:48 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 22:14:49 i shoulnt add that to .emacs 22:14:56 but write it in repl right? 22:19:03 -!- Guest35374 is now known as zmv 22:19:07 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:26 man I did not write single useful thing today, just looked and goofed around 22:19:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for I did not write single useful thing today, just looked and goofed around. 22:19:53 *maxm* adds todo to write erc hook to strip "man" from in front of his typing 22:20:28 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-154-210.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:10 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-33-22.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:46 rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-154-210.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:23:08 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:16 FAIL 22:23:39 libssl unable to load it 22:23:49 when doing hunchentoot install 22:25:51 zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:44 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 22:31:39 Creamfiller [~TH06@201.170.5.36.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:58 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:43 Sorella [~quildreen@187-127-252-15.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:36:44 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@187-127-252-15.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:36:44 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:36:49 -!- poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-70-116-22-88.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:40:36 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:56 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:41:41 http://hpaste.org/70616 22:41:47 i get 2 errors 22:41:56 variable name is not symbol 22:46:19 spree: Try setf instead of setq. 22:49:40 -!- Zeedox [DanDan@h-208-182.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:49:59 yeah 22:50:15 but why do i get undefined variable when just doing (setf x 10) in thje repl? 22:50:43 Had you previously done (defparameter x nil) or the equivalent? 22:51:01 If you just (setf x 10) without having previously bound x, it's undefined. 22:51:19 Again, PCL will explain this. 22:51:19 huh ? 22:51:28 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:52:05 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:52:09 it won't error 22:52:22 and it will bind x 22:52:40 it will just warn i think... 22:52:46 that x was unbound 22:52:58 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:53:03 or ? 22:53:28 Yes, that's true. It doesn't raise an error, it just warns. 22:53:43 spree: it will be a lot easier on all of us if you read the PCL. it's free online! you don't even need to wait for it to arrive. and it goes through *a lot* of things. you seem to know how to program, so you should be able to grok what's in there. but these are really basic questions, so it'd be a lot easier on all of us if you'd read that and ask us where you get stuck when reading/doing it. it's named practical commo 22:53:43 it's a hands on book. 22:54:28 spree: also, local variables can be declared using let: (let ((x 10)) (print x) (setf x 100) (print x)) 22:54:33 -!- Creamfiller [~TH06@201.170.5.36.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [K-Lined] 22:54:47 beaky [~beaky@92.96.99.125] has joined #lisp 22:54:49 hello 22:54:54 yeah sorry 22:54:58 hello beaky 22:56:23 Should I start learning lisp through emacs, or is it better to learn it through mit-scheme and SICP? 22:56:59 haha 22:57:09 how about all three ? 22:57:14 and maybe one more! 22:57:35 beaky: In #lisp we generally use "Lisp" as referring to the language Common Lisp. Have a look at the book practical common lisp. 22:57:40 minion: pcl 22:57:41 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:58:02 ah 22:58:12 beaky: this channel is about common lisp. So we'll advise you to learn common lisp, probably. 22:58:37 aren't clisp and scheme essentially similar, or are there certain key differences? 22:58:41 beaky: and i personally believe that it's a good lisp to learn 22:58:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 beaky: Depending on what you're wanting to do this might be the right place. If your goal is primarily to write emacs applications then elisp (emacs lisp) is the way to go though :) 22:58:50 if you want to dive deep maybe paip and quinnecs book too 22:58:52 beaky: clisp is an implementation of common lisp, there are multiple. 22:59:00 oh 22:59:04 beaky: (SBCL is a popular one in this channel) 22:59:20 beaky: Scheme and CL have some similarities, sure. :) 22:59:23 where has all the spice gone! 22:59:29 lol 22:59:39 I really like the sicp videos 23:01:00 where do you get them ? 23:01:09 didn't see them yet 23:01:12 beaky: Have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) 23:01:17 or maybe i did and can't remember 23:01:41 oh i think i saw a few of them 23:01:49 maybe 3 or so 23:02:42 but it was all so black a terminal on, that i couldn't really see the code and the vid quality was another thing..... 23:04:21 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@ip-58-28-154-210.static-xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:22 beaky: I suggest working through PCL-book and going over to #scheme and ask them for some good intro resource (I hear good things about "teach yourself scheme in fixnum days"). And see which one makes you happiest. 23:04:33 ah 23:04:33 wth 23:04:49 my ellipses are drawn as a 5 in emacs 23:05:09 but not on beirc 23:05:14 baaaah 23:05:43 -!- steffi_s [marioooh@nat/hackerschool.com/x-cyyauwrzsvyhjukd] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:05:46 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:53 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:53 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:56 beaky: Lisp has some annoying aspects to it, mind you. The biggest one being when one gets stuck in Algol-land for whatever reason and the "OMG WHY CAN'T I XYZ LIKE I NORMALLY DO :((" happens. 23:07:09 -!- punee_ [~punee@set25-1-88-166-168-141.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: punee_] 23:07:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:15 like locked in the procedural mindset? 23:08:12 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@c-67-162-98-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:08:14 Naah. more the somewhat nice macrosystem and the sweet object system. 23:08:29 (algol-land includes Java and C# and what not, yeah) 23:09:06 schmx: that's happened to me in clojure many times now.. I wish it had proper tail recursion. the loops are too imperative. they're.. dirty. 23:09:08 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0133.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:25 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:35 meiji11: Never played with clojure. I was hoping it was not that painful :) 23:09:42 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:01 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:10:04 you aren't supposed to use loops very often in clojure 23:10:21 What does lisp have going over the other functional languages (haskell, ocaml, etc) apart from macros, tail recursion, and lambdas? 23:10:47 S11001001: really? I seem to see them used all the time. 23:11:25 beaky: tail recursion are lambdas are pretty common in functional languages. I think the biggest distinguishing thing is code as data, ie. macros. 23:11:26 meiji11: really. 23:11:58 beaky: It has a sueeet object system. 23:12:03 S11001001: I usually get much better performance out of loops, even for relatively simple things I could easily do using reduce.. 23:12:14 tail recursion is not even mandated in the CL spec, afaik 23:12:14 beaky: And unlike haskell, ocaml, etc. it's not a functional language ;) 23:12:32 Guthur: Wasn't last time I checked :) 23:12:38 if it isn't functional, then what sort of language is it? 23:12:40 beaky : Scheme and CL also have important differences :) 23:12:40 hmm, initarg why cant i set it to zero? 23:12:50 beaky: multi paradigm 23:12:57 ah like C++ 23:13:03 meiji11: typically you're supposed to use the lazy sequence combinators and not worry about microoptimizations until later 23:13:16 yeah, though functional programming in C++ would be a lot more painful 23:13:23 beaky: like C++ but with sanity 23:13:32 It's not so bad. Lots of boilerplate for functors 23:13:51 beaky : Scheme has proper tail recursion. CL doesn't 23:14:42 so lisp is whatever I want it to be? 23:14:44 necessarily (: 23:14:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:19 beaky: Something like that, yeah. 23:15:38 Unless you want it to be magic. It's not magic. 23:16:37 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:16:42 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:46 I've only heard good things about lisp 23:16:52 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-63-193.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:54 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 23:18:08 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:20:59 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:21:32 beaky: I only started using clojure (ie. a lisp) a few months ago, and it's been a very gratifying experience.. 23:21:37 with a few caveats, as I've mentioned. 23:21:39 *madnificent* misses his macros (doing things in javascript) 23:22:04 -!- zulu_inuoe [~zulu_inuo@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:22:23 how come common lisp doesn't have true tail recursion like scheme? that sounds like a drawback 23:22:26 meiji11: you'll be even happier if you start avoiding the terribly designed `loop/recur' and stop worrying so much about performance :) 23:23:25 what is good about clojure? having the jvm aqnd all java libs? 23:24:14 spree: yeah, and laziness, and STM is simple and built-in.. 23:24:40 beaky: the standard doesn't /require/ tail recursion, but it does allow it AFAIK 23:24:44 ah 23:25:01 meiji11: it's also dog-slow. so at least you'll have something to let your cores work on 23:25:25 beaky: I think the popular lisps all do tail recursion no problem. 23:25:27 madnificent: well.. yeah. I've been tempted to defect to common lisp a few times. 23:25:30 Clojure: perfect for my prescott heater this winter :) 23:25:34 not that I know anything about CL, or its performance. 23:25:46 does sbcl compile the fastest lisp code? 23:26:01 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bde91.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 23:26:10 meiji11: If you write good code you'll get good performance from CL. 23:26:25 Or close to, for most workloads, in the hands of a competent user. 23:26:30 meiji11: 'defect' isn't right. 'to follow the path towards the light, which is common lisp' would be better ;) (though seriously, enjoy clojure. it's not because i don't see the reason for its existence that you can't have a blast in it). 23:26:48 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-48.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:57 beaky: depends on what you're doing. but in general it seems to yield impressive results. 23:27:13 hmm. land of lisp is sitting around here somewhere.. 23:27:59 spree: if it was for access to the java libs and the jvm, abcl would do 23:28:03 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:28:30 What's hello world in lisp? is it (display 'Hello, World!) ? 23:28:42 schmx: good seems to be like an understatement 23:28:47 beaky: (print "hello world") 23:28:52 ah thanks 23:28:55 abcl has access to java libraries? 23:29:10 "Hello World" 23:29:13 meiji11: it has an api for htat, yes 23:29:22 there is my version of the hello world in Lisp 23:29:29 Guthur: it doesn't really print when you just state it like that. so i find it cheating. 23:29:36 how do I evaluate lisp expressions in emacs lisp? 23:29:47 madnificent: I guess it all depends on what one means with "good." :) 23:29:50 I tried M-x eval-buffer but it doesn't output hello world 23:29:58 C-x C-e after form 23:30:01 beaky which lisp? 23:30:02 beaky: this is about common lisp. but in *scratch* go to the end of the expression and enter C-j 23:30:15 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 23:30:25 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 23:30:28 ah thanks so much 23:30:31 beaky: I think that will try to evaluate it as an emacs lisp expression. The thing to look into is SLIME for emacs. 23:30:45 I guess quicklisp has some thing for installing it neatly. 23:30:52 schmx: Lisp is pretty magical to me. 23:30:56 schmx: quicklisp-slime-helper 23:31:08 sykopomp: you're always complaining! 23:31:13 sykopomp: But that's because you're still stuck at casting spels :(((( 23:31:42 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.203.251] has joined #lisp 23:32:12 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has left #lisp 23:32:26 <- finds the MOP to be magical 23:32:50 beaky: Actually there's a book called Land of Lisp which might be a good read too. Haven't looked at it myself :) 23:33:01 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 23:33:02 madnificent: complaining is my way of saying I love you. 23:33:09 land of lisp 23:33:09 to Lisp, not to you. 23:33:17 although you're an alright guy, madnificent, most of the time. 23:33:25 me, I get called dickopomp. :) 23:33:27 sykopomp: thank you for the clarification 23:33:50 beaky: http://landoflisp.com/ 23:38:30 does anyone know if the sbcl compiler can do optimizations across function call boundaries? 23:38:43 It can. 23:38:44 would it only happen if I declared a function to be inline? 23:38:51 AFAIK yes. 23:39:20 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 23:40:59 sbcl is strictly function at a time. You can declare inline, or add type declarations. 23:42:00 okay, good 23:43:42 I'd like to know more about the compiler 23:43:54 You have the sources. 23:44:13 I'm using lisp to play around with language and compiler concepts, so I want to be sure I'm not doing things it's already going to be doing anyway 23:45:44 -!- spree [spree@109.58.33.182.bredband.tre.se] has quit [] 23:45:53 Dalek_Baldwin: do you have a sound knowledge of what common lisp encompasses? it has *a lot* of fancy concepts which compiler writers have to think about, so it may be smart to learn the language (and reason in yourself about a potential implementation at first) and then start checking the sources of an implementation. 23:45:57 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:49:07 yeah I've got a pretty good idea by now 23:49:28 but I'm mostly just finding it to be a good language to learn about these concepts 23:49:41 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:49:44 I've gone through quite a few books, gone through the prolog and forth compiler examples in PAIP and let over lambda 23:50:08 Dalek_Baldwin: You might enjoy Lisp In Small Pieces. 23:50:21 Dalek_Baldwin: Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 23:50:31 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:51:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:51:29 ah, I haven't gone through that one yet 23:52:31 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:46 I think at this point I'm mostly interested in MOP type stuff but it's hard to find good examples 23:54:28 There's a book on it ;) 23:55:13 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-138-119.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:35 yeah, I read it 23:56:46 ah ok :) 23:57:47 cheezus [~Adium@75-27-167-69.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:01 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:58:05 what led me back to lisp was first reading about AOP which then led to kiczales' earlier MOP stuff