00:14:03 scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 00:18:39 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:18:42 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:20:06 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 fitzgen: No documentation, but it's pretty simple. 00:30:28 There's a client-side implementation here: https://github.com/brown/swank-client 00:30:31 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 00:33:21 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128014079.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:38:03 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:16 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108.235.117.64] has quit [Quit: guyal] 00:38:21 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 00:38:56 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-247-19-150.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:42 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:40:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:40:15 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:40 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:42:19 pnq [~nick@ACA35726.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:46 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 00:47:18 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 00:47:19 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 00:47:19 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 00:49:44 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:49 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 00:51:29 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:51:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:52:53 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:53:20 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:31 ikki [~ikki@189.139.15.119] has joined #lisp 00:56:41 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:57:15 -!- Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has left #lisp 00:58:15 Archenoth [~user@96.51.223.95] has joined #lisp 01:01:17 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 01:02:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.15.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:03:01 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:06:53 -!- organometallica [~bigsqueez@bigsqueeze.scs.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:07:28 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 01:08:20 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:25 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:14:27 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:15:17 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:19:46 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35726.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:20 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:23:11 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:24:22 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 01:26:49 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:27 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-229-86-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:35 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:30:16 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-lrrkgqlzqknnotje] has joined #lisp 01:30:21 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 01:34:32 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:11 springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has joined #lisp 01:38:52 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:40:50 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:40:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:29 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:46:31 -!- dmizzle [~dmizzle@c-76-23-19-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:08 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-183-188.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:48:49 ChibaPet: Speak? 01:49:08 Ah, the BLM... 01:49:36 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:10 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.242.248] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 01:59:08 dmizzle [~dmizzle@c-76-23-19-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:08 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:02:17 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 02:06:11 sellout [~Adium@c-98-229-86-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:03 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:14:09 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:18:41 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.250.174] has joined #lisp 02:19:09 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.236] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:10 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 02:19:23 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:13 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.236] has joined #lisp 02:20:14 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:20:22 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:52 fantasticsid [~user@175.45.139.85] has joined #lisp 02:25:03 Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:57 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:55 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:58 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:36:02 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:36:34 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:43 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 02:38:35 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:12 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:43 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.250.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:06 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:49:05 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 02:56:29 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:06 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:26 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A237.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:54 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839E10.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:17:25 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:17:31 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:25:44 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 03:29:41 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:32:08 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:33:02 scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 03:33:19 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:35:02 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0nk.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:40:15 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:40:36 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:40:55 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 03:42:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:44:12 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:10 -!- dmizzle [~dmizzle@c-76-23-19-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:48 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 03:48:59 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 03:49:51 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:57:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.38.141] has joined #lisp 03:57:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.38.141] has quit [Changing host] 03:57:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:03:05 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.251.235] has joined #lisp 04:03:41 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.251.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:53 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:23 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:04:23 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:04:23 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:04:23 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:04:23 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-200-144.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:04:23 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:05:28 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:04 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.250.111] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-200-144.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:58 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:15:03 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@101.63.175.216] has joined #lisp 04:17:26 dmizzle [~dmizzle@c-76-23-19-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:40 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:18:41 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:19:38 asvil [~asvil@178.121.90.238] has joined #lisp 04:20:51 -!- ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ozialien] 04:22:18 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:22:18 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:22:18 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:22:18 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-200-144.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:22:18 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:23:08 theBlackDragon [~dragon@109.236.137.35] has joined #lisp 04:25:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:28:17 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:28:17 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:17 Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:29:00 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-200-144.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:57 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:58 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:50 -!- dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:38 denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qseijaqggoisqhlg] has joined #lisp 04:57:42 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has joined #lisp 04:58:17 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-cuayscqnkvnyufqv] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-cuayscqnkvnyufqv] has quit [Changing host] 04:58:18 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:00:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-237.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:01:03 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-214-237.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:10:11 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gelawwjxitxiznoe] has joined #lisp 05:10:19 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:10:26 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:06 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C4FC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.172.219.61] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:22:22 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.172.219.61] has joined #lisp 05:22:28 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:32 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:26:22 -!- melontrolly1 [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:30 melontrolly1 [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:17 ZSpook [~bsd@24-52-222-200.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:43 hello 05:30:34 zealousJavelin [~niksaak@94.27.88.79] has joined #lisp 05:30:51 (hello 'world) ^___^ 05:31:30 the world is sleeping 05:32:28 -!- ZSpook [~bsd@24-52-222-200.cable.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 05:32:51 not all of it... 05:33:37 What way is better to bind lexical vars - (defun foo () (let ((bar) (baz)) nil)) or (defun foo (&aux bar baz) nil)? 05:34:46 let is more usual 05:34:52 aux is old style 05:35:28 as mal__ says, most recent code i have read uses let, not aux. 05:37:50 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:38:12 &aux is very bad. 05:38:29 when you have to take an API and change its implementation, for example. 05:40:51 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.95.212] has joined #lisp 05:43:01 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:43:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:43:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 pjb: what do you think about its use for accumulators? 05:44:13 pjb: Hmmm~ Why so? Don't get why it's harder to change than with let~ 05:46:20 pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has joined #lisp 05:48:42 &aux params can be initialised using the values of normal params. can come in handy i suppose. 05:49:51 -!- fantasticsid [~user@175.45.139.85] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:50:03 At best, they save a let. 05:53:01 fantasticsid [~user@175.45.139.85] has joined #lisp 05:53:13 there seem to be some cases where &aux is more convenient 05:53:47 at one point, I thought &AUX params used to only be accessible from within the defun, which would have been very useful. But then I found out the sad truth. 05:54:30 accessible meaning you could call the function with these auxiliary parameters, but only via a recursive calls. Outside of the function, you wouldn't be able to. 05:54:30 as I understand, &aux is just like #'let* just in other place. or there is other differences? 05:54:43 not "#'let*", but yeah basically 05:54:52 interesting discussion in 2009: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/586ca399d6b7e0b4/6f82d6732fc1d457 05:55:08 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C4FC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:58:03 Actually, that's more useful than I was thinking of. 05:58:22 (defun foo (list &aux accumulated) ...) 05:59:18 Ha, so it gives possibilities of cute hax, hee-hee. https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4e87b7c026e808fe 05:59:33 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:00:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:00:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:01:26 Oh, but &aux vars are accessible from outside of function, right? 06:02:56 Ah, no, they aren't. 06:03:55 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:04:46 jewel [~jewel@196.215.148.118] has joined #lisp 06:06:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:07:40 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:10 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:13:12 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 06:22:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@196.215.148.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:11 zealousJavelin: LET is eliminated with a single C-M-k 06:24:19 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.95.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:26:38 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:26:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-70.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:27:03 DataLinkDroid: The accumulator pattern uses a PARAMETER, not a local variable. Zhivago should know, he's so smart 06:27:21 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:30:15 &aux may be practical in macros. If you write a macro that generates a defun, and which inserts into the body some expression needing a local variable, it's easier to append &aux to the lambda list, than to deal with the declarations and docstring properly to insert a let. 06:30:30 &aux may be practical in defstruct boa constructors, too. 06:30:49 But in a plain defun, you should never use it. 06:32:21 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:16 why never use it? what are the disadvantages 06:33:25 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:33:48 the lambda list defines the signature of a function, ie. it's interface. local variables have nothing to do here. 06:33:53 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:34:02 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:40 and technically, doc strings have nothing to do with the body of a function but they're still used pervasively instead of SETFing the documentation 06:34:42 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:34:45 -!- dmizzle [~dmizzle@c-76-23-19-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:24 technically, they're not in the body of the function. 06:35:41 (defun name lambda-list [docstring] [declaration] body) 06:35:50 pjb: thanks. i was thinking that the &aux variable might have been available to tail recursive calls for accumulation, but it appears not 06:36:23 that's more a use of &optional 06:36:50 mal__: yes 06:36:56 zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has joined #lisp 06:37:41 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:47 -!- Longshot__ [Longshot__@183.89.17.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:11 Longshot__ [Longshot__@183.89.17.64] has joined #lisp 06:39:37 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.222.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:17 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:43:18 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:43:18 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:45:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.34] has joined #lisp 06:45:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.57.34] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:50:12 teggi [~teggi@113.172.45.222] has joined #lisp 06:53:51 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.95.50] has joined #lisp 06:54:16 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.48.142] has joined #lisp 06:54:17 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.48.142] has left #lisp 06:54:27 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.48.142] has joined #lisp 06:58:38 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:19 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 07:00:23 -!- kanru [~kanru@84.124.36.50.static.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:02:23 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:02:54 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@101.172.219.61] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:03:12 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:04:55 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:04:57 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has joined #lisp 07:05:24 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:05:29 what variable should i shadow to let a piece of code read/write content in a different external format. i'm communicating with a database over ODBC which apparently doesn't spit out UTF8 (even though i requested it to do so) 07:07:48 <|3b|> probably depends on the implementation and how the code is talking to the DB 07:08:04 <|3b|> and you probably just want to bind whatever it is, not shadow it :) 07:09:51 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:10:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10:26 |3b|: fair enough on part of shadow/bind. however the problem still persists. i think it fails on read-char. i'm using sbcl. 07:10:54 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:10:54 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:11:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 07:11:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 07:11:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:11:38 <|3b|> is the code you are using to talk to odbc public somewhere? 07:14:05 |3b|: it's clsql-odbc 07:18:50 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 07:21:04 *madnificent* assumed clsql-odbc would get the necessary encoding from /etc/odbc.ini 07:21:11 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:21:31 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 07:22:07 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:23:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-70.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:25:55 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:28:23 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:33:46 <|3b|> possibly sb-impl::*default-external-format* or sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* ? 07:34:14 *|3b|* would expect those to both already be utf8 on a sane system though (not that my win7 sbcl seems to be sane in that regard :( 07:36:04 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-7-106.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:05 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-7-106.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:36:05 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:38:11 <|3b|> looks like it should be the first of those if either 07:38:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:38 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:38:49 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:51 <|3b|> madnificent: do you have a stack trace of it failing? 07:39:23 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:23 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:39:33 <|3b|> also, are you using real uffi or the compatibility later in cffi? 07:39:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:40:20 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:42:49 Why is there no completion for (in-package in SLIME? 07:47:10 |3b|: the problem is that they should *not* be utf8 :) i'll try to bind them. 07:47:26 |3b|: i have a stack trace, but i should clean it up so there's no data leakage :) 07:48:29 fasta: there is for M-x change-package (i think) 07:49:04 fasta: the reason is that /symbols/ are completed in slime. if the symbol you are using for in-package hasn't been used before, slime will not discover it. you could hack it in there though. 07:49:16 madnificent: I don't have that command. 07:49:29 madnificent: sure, I could hack everything (and have done so). 07:49:46 fasta: ,change-package in the repl, sorry 07:50:21 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:50:28 *madnificent* is fairly certain that fasta hasn't hacked everything. assumes the world isn't finite. 07:51:04 madnificent: 'in some cases' then ;) 07:51:45 What about completion for ( 2)? 07:52:13 <|3b|> madnificent: ah, if you want non-utf8, defaulting to utf8 might be a problem 07:52:21 I.e., what are the functions/macros which expect a number as their only argument? 07:53:03 <|3b|> fasta: don't think slime is quite that smart, not sure if any implementations even provide enough information to guess that for that matter 07:53:39 <|3b|> it could be smart enough to complete package names for argument to IN-PACKAGE though 07:54:41 |3b|: what is considered good style in Common Lisp? Checking for the type-explicitly or just assume that the right type is being passed? 07:55:09 <|3b|> depends on what you are doing 07:55:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:55:30 I.e., in Scheme you can do (if (number? x) (display "ok") (display "please crash now")). 07:55:36 fasta: but it would be a very very nice addition. especially if you can figure out that the second argument is an object of a particular class as well. at least, i'd find it a handy addition. i don't think we have something which will do type inference to that level yet though, so it might be a tad more work than you'd wish for. (though a walker may help a great deal). 07:56:01 *|3b|* would probably generally let lower-level code worry about types, since i might constrain them more than needed and annoy people even if i did try to validate them 07:56:14 |3b|: well, if every function would do that, it would be very efficient to implement something like that. 07:56:46 <|3b|> unless i'm passing things to low-level/unsafe code that i would expect to break when given wrong types, or when the errors from lower-level code are confusing enough to cause problems 07:56:59 |3b|: fun, i can start guessing on the external format now \o/ (sigh) 07:57:00 If OTOH, you have to walk the whole tree it might be a bit more complicated. 07:57:28 <|3b|> i'd rather have the code execute quickly due to not checking types on every single call :p 07:57:39 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:57:42 |3b|: isn't that what the compiler is for? 07:58:03 <|3b|> for compiling the code for (if (number? x) ...)? yes 07:58:18 |3b|: if a function checks for a type and then a subfunction also checks the same type, then the second check can be elided. 07:58:18 <|3b|> if you mean figuring out that isn't needed, it can't in general, since you coudl redefine functions at runtime 07:58:21 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:58:39 fasta: that's what declare type is for 07:58:41 <|3b|> unless you want to potentially recompile the whole image every time you change a function 07:59:08 madnificent: isn't declare type to tell to the compiler to assume certain things? 07:59:16 madnificent: i.e., a completely different thing? 07:59:36 fasta: it can be both. you can either tell the compiler to verify it, or to assume it to be so. (though not that literally, it's the basic consequence) 07:59:51 fasta: there's assert if you want to always verify that something is the case 08:00:15 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 08:01:36 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 08:01:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 08:01:37 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:02:19 |3b|: isn't there some option to tell the compiler to make certain assumptions like that you won't redefine code? 08:02:48 I think that in many cases it is easily provable that such evil code is absent. 08:02:56 I.e., soundness, not completeness. 08:03:13 <|3b|> fasta: "the" compiler? 08:03:21 |3b|: the evaluator. 08:03:36 *|3b|* was more questioning the "the" part than the "compiler" part 08:03:39 fasta: you can tell the compiler that it may inline functions. 08:03:39 compile-file does this for file-local calls. 08:03:56 fasta: well, the functions which you say it may inline 08:04:25 What's the smallest executable any free CL system can make currently? 08:04:43 <|3b|> there are some ways to let implementations assume code won't change, but they don't help the original question of doing that for everything very much 08:04:45 I.e., if it would just have to dump something like 'hello world'. 08:04:45 I don't know, but why do you care? 08:04:49 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:05:00 <|3b|> a few mb for clisp or ecl if i remember correctly 08:05:24 Zhivago: it gives an impression of the maturity of the tools. 08:05:26 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:27 A couple MB for SBCL. 08:05:34 fasta: Why? 08:05:55 fast: I mean, I used to care about that kind of thing before storage and memory become incredibly cheap. 08:06:18 fasta: Now I just worry about how many gigs of memory something uses. 08:06:18 <|3b|> fasta: so does that mean my compiler that makes few-k binaries is more mature than sbcl which has been in development for decades? 08:06:42 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:06:45 |3b|: no 08:07:05 |3b|: there is a vector of properties. 08:07:25 |3b|: AFAIK, there isn't any system which has a perfect score for everything. 08:07:45 Is it possible to write C level code in SBCL and get the exact same performance? 08:07:57 fasta: yes, if you know what you're doing. 08:07:57 I.e., it compiles to the exact same assembly in the end? 08:07:59 <|3b|> depends on the problem 08:08:12 <|3b|> matching exactly (not faster or slower) sounds like it would be a challenge though 08:08:17 It mostly likely won't compile to the same assembly except for the most trivial problems. 08:08:21 <|3b|> exact same assembly sounds even harder 08:08:29 Just like 'CL-Python', there could be 'CL-C'. 08:08:59 But then again, getting icc and gcc to compile to the exact same performance or exact same assembly is near impossible as well. 08:09:04 <|3b|> well, if you define the c code we are competing with as being compiled by the host lisp, it gets a lot easier :p 08:09:04 kanru [~kanru@233.Red-88-7-119.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:38 <|3b|> and there have been lisp hosted C compilers, not sure if any are/were CL though 08:09:48 fasta: why? so we can have the worst of both worlds? If I write C, I'm damn well going to compile it with a C compiler that's supported by dozens of people with inputs by chip manufacturers. 08:10:31 pkhuong: if it would just call gcc -S transparantly, that would be one way to solve it. 08:10:55 I don't think reinventing the wheel (writing a C compiler) would be a smart move. 08:11:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-237.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:11:24 But if you can just write (inline-C #include ... int foo (){...}), that would be useful. 08:11:34 there's a C compiler in Genera on the lisp machines 08:11:41 you can. Just use the FFI. 08:12:25 pkhuong: which one? There are multiple, right? Which one is the most user-friendly? 08:12:33 <|3b|> i think ecl lets you write inline C 08:13:03 |3b|: but that's not portable. 08:13:04 fasta: each implementation has its own FFI. CFFI provides a common interface. 08:13:17 i think the biggest problem with inline-anything is impedance mismatch between the two languages 08:13:20 <|3b|> "not portable"? 08:13:46 <|3b|> or you want a portable library that does inline C? 08:15:49 With CFFI, it's easy. Compile the code in /tmp, and use CFFI to load the so and to call the function; wrap tinycc or clang if you like things neat. A student at NYU had such a small hack, directly based on SBCL's FFI, (along with a raw string reader) on his home page ~5 years ago. I think he's graduated by now though. 08:15:50 fasta: write a (read) macro for "inline-C". should be fairly easy with ECL, as that uses the C compiler anyway. 08:16:28 |3b|: a portable library that does inline C. 08:16:34 doesnt lack of editor support deter you guys from writing read macros? 08:16:40 |3b|: or C++ 08:17:01 Quadrescence: in theory you would also reprogram your editor. 08:17:10 <|3b|> fasta: like pkhuong said, it wouldn't be hard, not sure how useful it would be though... easier to just write C separately using C dev tools 08:17:17 yes of course 08:17:22 Quadrescence: but yes, I think most people consider it a problem. 08:17:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-90-147.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:18:00 I personally would like to see a C compiler written in Lisp. That would be interesting to me. 08:18:00 Quadrescence: emacs's multi mode thing might work... 08:18:24 *|3b|* wonders if it has a non-flaky multi mode thing yet 08:18:43 <|3b|> last one i tried used multiple fake buffers or something, and was sort of odd to use 08:19:54 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-8-242.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:20:15 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:20:37 poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-70-116-22-88.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 mathslinux [~user@119.255.44.227] has joined #lisp 08:23:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.95.50] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:24:43 When CFFI binds to curl in the tutorial it hard codes '0', instead of using a symbol. That seems to be a great design flaw. 08:24:46 -!- mathslinux is now known as Dunrong 08:24:57 quartus [5f805f17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.128.95.23] has joined #lisp 08:25:01 <|3b|> tutorials don't always use the best design 08:25:34 |3b|: is there a way to use a symbol derived from the C header? 08:25:42 |3b|: i.e. not manually. 08:25:43 -!- Dunrong [~user@119.255.44.227] has left #lisp 08:25:48 <|3b|> a few of them 08:26:03 Like? 08:26:04 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:26:49 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:53 <|3b|> cffi-grovel if you want to be absolutely sure of the value, or something like verrazano or swig 08:26:53 fasta: not really answering your question, but why do you want to use curl? is drakma lacking features that you need? 08:27:07 H4ns: I don't want to use curl. 08:27:11 <|3b|> H4ns: i suspect the goal is to go through the cffi tutorial rather than use curl 08:27:15 ah, ok. 08:27:25 I have a lot of experience with FFIs. 08:27:30 sorry. just fishing for feature incompleteness reports. 08:27:39 So, I know what I look for in a good FFI. 08:27:49 what to look* 08:28:11 <|3b|> cffi-grovel builds a C file, and compiles it with the host systems C compiler, then runs that to generate a file of constants, structure field offsets, or whatever you told it to figure out 08:28:51 <|3b|> verrazano and swig try to parse the header files (or modified versions of them) to extract the values 08:30:08 <|3b|> or if the values are defined somewhere other than just "in the source", you can just define the constants by hand (or some machine translation of whatever external spec exists) 08:30:29 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-2-126.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:31:36 Is there also a way to get rid of code like this? (constant (ev-enable "EV_ENABLE")) I.e., to just automatically translate FOO_BAR to foo-bar? 08:31:49 <|3b|> cl-opengl for example uses the latter strategy, most of my other bindings started with verrazano and were hand-edited from there, libs that need to deal with OS headers rather than portable libs tend to need to grovel things on each install 08:32:05 Sure, it's Lisp and it can be programmed with a fairly simple macro, but that's not what I mean. 08:32:24 *maxm-* does hand-editing too for now, since my API is small 08:33:16 Is Verrazano still supported? Last news 2005? 08:33:27 *|3b|* tends to want control of the name translations, so either writes lib specific translations or edits them by hand 08:33:54 a small forwarder library, with basically lisp wrapper for most FFI calls, all object refs are boost::shared_ptr's, lisp side keeps single reference (uses weak hash on address to maintain 1 ref only, when shared_ptr pointing to the same object is returned from multiple calls) 08:34:05 <|3b|> probably, not many lisp libs have lots of maintainers, so it isn't uncommon for them to have none :( 08:34:48 <|3b|> probably would be better to reimplement verrazano in terms of clang instead of gcc-xml these days anyway 08:34:59 makes GC magically automatic, ie once lisp collects the lisp-side shared-ptr object, finalizer calls ptr.reset(), and c++ destructors are called (unless c++ has more refs inside it) 08:36:00 maxm-: you just use extern "C" in your C++? 08:36:52 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-129.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:36:54 Or is there some way to call C++ code without doing that? 08:36:59 fasta: yes, works great.. You can extern fuction by function, ie extern "C" void blah(boost::shared_ptr &ret, boost::shared_ptr const &arg1) 08:37:52 maxm-: so, for Lisp those are just opaque objects? 08:38:36 fasta: yes lisp side object is a class or struct with two holding pointers representing pi/px pointers of shared_ptr.. All lisps have their own "opaque pointer" type, sbcl ones are called SAP (system area pointer) 08:38:49 fasta: I find that's the best way to treat pointers to C++ values, even from C. 08:39:06 you can extract its value as integer, and use in hash table or do whatever you want with it, or convert back to sap 08:39:44 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nacxhjyraegyzzzc] has joined #lisp 08:40:02 it actually works great when your object model is rooted in a single AbstractObject with virtual destructor, then you can pass everything as shared_ptr &, and use static casts to the descendants 08:40:45 nha [~prefect@g229047027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:41 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:43:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:44:17 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA111B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:27 maxm-: how do you prevent leaks? 08:44:58 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:45:31 Ralith: its refcounting so there no leaks (if done right).. Lisp side only maintains 1 reference (and uses weak hash table on with key->address, value->lisp side shared_ptr) 08:45:45 maxm-: you misunderstand. 08:45:48 and has finalizer attached, which calls c++ realease_ptr, which does ptr.reset() 08:45:58 there are no guarantees as to when finalizers are ran. 08:46:36 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:46:45 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 08:46:59 well as long as they run eventually its fine. I also have function to manually release it, ie you can use and release it right away in unwind-protect or such 08:47:17 it's not fine if "eventually" is after you've ran out of memory. 08:47:42 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:49:19 Ralith: if the only finaliser-protected resource is memory, it's really not so bad. 08:49:41 whyzat? 08:50:09 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:50:34 sbcl seems to run them pretty consistently.. Ie I have a stress-test running lots of stuff, and in the end after (sb-ext:gc :full t) there is 100% not a single object leaked (I do static num_instances++/-- in constructors/destructors on c++ side to check) 08:51:12 <|3b|> maxm-: now carefully rewrite all your code to avoid consing, and see if stuff still gets finalized as often :) 08:51:15 Ralith: because at least memory usage on both sides is weakly correlated, and since gcs tend to be triggered by allocation or lack of space... 08:51:43 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:51:50 pkhuong: are 'lack of space' triggers aware of foreign memory? 08:52:24 maxm-: does your production code call (sb-ext:gc :full t) regularly? 08:52:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 08:52:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 08:52:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:52:34 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:37 it works for my specific use-case, but I guess there can be usage pattern when this would blow up, the lisp side mostly non-consing and creating lots of c++ unique objects 08:52:40 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:52:45 Ralith: no, but, like I said, memory usage on both sides is weakly correlated. 08:53:07 then it's a matter of how much memory various things are using, I expect 08:53:25 could be worse, I suppose. 08:53:31 my use case is financial data, so usually you just retrieving same object over and over again from c++ side, like instrument, or account or data series 08:55:11 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.204.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:55:22 *maxm-* had finished full live update with triggers and stuff (ie c++ side changing data fires events in lisp, and redraws the difference from last state), with catchup (ie can redraw batches).. 08:56:03 I'm now redoing my data sources in lisp, gonna evaluate the performance of data source being separate lisp process, and distributing stuff via zmq 08:56:53 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:51 catch-up protocol seems to be extremely tricky.. Ie subscribe -> get history -> start getting live events, there can be more live events appearing as you getting history, trying to wrap my head around the bullet-proof protocol last few days, could use suggestions.. For now I'm using "seq number", and basically keep retriving last N history, until seq number matches the "came from subscription channel" 08:57:59 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 09:00:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 09:00:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:01:00 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:03:51 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:07:47 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:03 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-34-6.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:11:04 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:13:17 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:16:22 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 09:17:17 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:31 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:05 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:21:29 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:22:11 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-lrrkgqlzqknnotje] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:23:02 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:23:22 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:24:59 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-237.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:26:02 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:27:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-237.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:29:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:55 -!- maxm- is now known as maxm 09:35:17 -!- superflit_ [~superflit@63-228-84-107.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:37:18 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.181.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:39:14 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:41:05 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:41:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:41:47 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 09:42:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 09:42:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:48:07 -!- nha [~prefect@g229047027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:49:06 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has joined #lisp 09:49:43 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:50:42 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 09:50:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:51:12 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:52:11 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 09:55:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 09:55:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:55:52 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:21 where does quicklisp/asdf store the compiled files for packages (fasl?)? 09:56:27 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 09:56:36 I need to clean up bordeaux-threads files and can't find them this time 09:56:39 dim: ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 09:56:45 ah yes, thx 09:56:48 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA111B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 09:57:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 09:57:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:58:58 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.48.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:00:50 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:02:41 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:05:18 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:05:41 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:06:06 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:54 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:06:59 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:11:21 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-212-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:53 -!- X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:23 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:15:32 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:18:35 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:19:02 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:24 -!- kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-212-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:19:33 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:20:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:20:20 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:28:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:28:50 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:16 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:02 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:33:06 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA111B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 -!- kanru [~kanru@233.Red-88-7-119.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34:12 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:35:26 -!- quartus [5f805f17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.128.95.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:27 Borbie [~user@cmp-d-8k1gx2j.cmp.uea.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:36:09 I think it would be quite pleasurable to have font-lock on for the input in the SLIME buffer. Anybody know how to do that? 10:36:40 superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.230] has joined #lisp 10:38:56 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-225.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:29 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:45:08 Borbie: M+x lisp-mode? 10:46:20 hello 10:46:37 asvil: only one major mode per buffer. That'd make the REPL not a REPL anymore. 10:46:45 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-237-76-181.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:47:16 oh, sorry 10:47:52 Borbie: I tend to work in the slime-scratch buffer, and C-x C-e. I think a lot of slime developers work that way too, hence the very sparse REPL. 10:48:24 :) M+x lisp-mode, look at it, and then M+x slime-repl-mode 10:49:03 all my words are wrong, sorry twice 10:51:14 -!- Mandus [~aasmundo@oro.simula.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:52:07 pkhuong: I wasn't aware of slime-scratch, that's nice, although I think paredit or something has made C-j stop working. I guess that is better of prototyping functions and stuff, which is the only time font lock colours would come up anyway really 10:53:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:56:55 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gelawwjxitxiznoe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:57:01 <|3b|> C-u C-x C-e can also be nice in slime-scratch 10:57:33 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zvkgedlcqbwautlv] has joined #lisp 10:59:59 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:01:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:02:43 saage [~saage@187.55.66.236] has joined #lisp 11:02:44 -!- saage [~saage@187.55.66.236] has quit [Changing host] 11:02:44 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 11:03:03 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA111B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:08 agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:18 -!- chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:56 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:18 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:08:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:08 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 11:14:21 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 11:15:23 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:15 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:20:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:20:38 ignas_ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:21:19 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:23:44 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:41 carlo_au [~carlo@ppp118-208-132-176.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:25:38 -!- benny [~benny@i577A11BB.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28:54 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.90.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:30:57 slime-scratch is invaluable when you're prototyping functions with more than a couple of forms in them. 11:31:28 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 11:35:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:35:37 -!- cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:35:59 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:56 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:39:03 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128175247.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:39:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 11:39:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 11:39:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:39:35 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:47 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:43:19 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 11:45:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-110.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:46:51 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 11:48:29 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:49:37 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:50:55 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:51:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:53:38 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA111B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:22 kanru [~kanru@233.Red-88-7-119.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:57:07 lemoinem [~swoog@246-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:15 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.101.186] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:58:24 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c372.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:08 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:00:08 -!- Longshot__ [Longshot__@183.89.17.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:18 Longshot__ [Longshot__@180.183.165.98] has joined #lisp 12:01:49 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.250.194] has joined #lisp 12:03:17 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:05:43 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:48 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:06:24 ahh it's a wonderful day 12:07:28 Fade: thanks for the hint, didn't realize there's something like that. 12:08:01 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 12:08:58 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@mailout.faxonline.at] has joined #lisp 12:09:05 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp118-208-132-176.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:11:27 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:43 AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:13:15 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:15 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 12:14:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-237.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:18:58 madrik [~user@122.168.229.46] has joined #lisp 12:19:25 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:21:29 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:22:07 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.37.189] has joined #lisp 12:23:12 -!- DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:43 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:23:49 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:24:44 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:08 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:43 a hunchentoot page of mine is being called by facebook which results in call to my page that looks like this http://mypage#token=blahblah ....however i cant seem to find the values after the # anywhere in the request object, does hunchentoot just throw these values away or can I look somewhere else for them? 12:29:16 Harag: Did you mean to use ? instead of # 12:29:30 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:29:36 Harag: post-# stuff is available to the client 12:29:40 no its a # not a ? which would be fine 12:29:41 Harag: ? indicates the query section (x=y), where as # is the fragment indicator. 12:29:42 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-201-46.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:21 sellout: so does hunchentoot store those fragments anywhere? 12:31:29 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:31:39 Harag: the client does not, as far as i know, include them in the request 12:32:13 Harag: it's there so e.g. javascript on the page can use it to construct requests e.g. for particular ajax/json data 12:32:22 AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:32:39 Harag: What Xach said  Hunchentoot never gets the # part. 12:33:15 i have an alternative route of doing 2 round trips to get the token I want i was just hoping to cut to the chase with one round trip 12:34:32 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:21 scrimohsin [~shamber@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:22 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:36:22 scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 12:37:27 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:37:39 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:45 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:21 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 12:40:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-201-46.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:20 Harag: if you want to pass it to server you need a different method 12:40:24 cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:36 ?token= 12:41:07 RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has joined #lisp 12:41:12 # goes to anchor in requested document and is handled client side, which allows to grab it with JS 12:41:33 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.215] has joined #lisp 12:41:51 -!- zealousJavelin [~niksaak@94.27.88.79] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:42:00 Harag: how about (request-uri *request*)? 12:42:16 might include everything sent from the client, including the anchor part 12:42:45 Nope. 12:43:06 flip214: not for # 12:43:56 get-request-data just does a split on whitespace, and process-request doesn't look for the "#", too 12:44:10 The client does not send the # and beyond 12:44:38 is that so? I understood that this _gets_ sent, and there's a problem getting it from hunchentoot 12:44:55 (yes, I know that this is non-standard; still, nothing that a simple "telnet host 80" can't fix ;) 12:45:16 You understand wrong. 12:47:10 *Xach* learns that the :no-error clause is not like the other clauses in handler-case 12:47:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:27 Harag: by RFC3986 3.5 # is not passed to server 12:47:43 flip214: ^ 12:48:21 "As such, the fragment identifier is not used in the scheme-specific processing of a URI; instead, the fragment identifier is separated from the rest of the URI prior to a dereference, and thus the identifying information within the fragment itself is dereferenced solely by the user agent, regardless of the URI scheme." 12:49:20 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:49:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:08 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:28 Harag: I think there's another way to do this if you RPC to facebook from the server. 12:52:43 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 12:53:13 RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has joined #lisp 12:54:11 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has joined #lisp 12:54:33 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zvkgedlcqbwautlv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:42 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 12:56:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:40 Hi, is there a quick way to extract the nth row in a 2D matrix or do we have to do it cell by cell with a loop and aref ? 12:57:32 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:57:36 francogrex: you can do (make-array :displaced-to :displaced-index-offset) 12:58:34 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-34-6.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:59:05 ? 12:59:08 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:59:49 clhs make-array 12:59:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 13:00:21 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:39 basically, create an array whose data just points to another (existing) array, starting on a non-zero offset. 13:01:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.37.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:12 the "new" array can then be used in eg. (map) 13:04:44 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-225.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:24 ok 13:06:49 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:09:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:09:05 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.229.46] has left #lisp 13:12:43 -!- Borbie [~user@cmp-d-8k1gx2j.cmp.uea.ac.uk] has left #lisp 13:13:10 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:13:43 fasta: a hello world generated with ecl can be 4 or 8 KB depending on the architecture. 13:15:18 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:15:35 fasta: see https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4b43b255096eaa17?hl=en 13:15:55 cheezus1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:05 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:24 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:49 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-225.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:09 -!- cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:20:08 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@75-119-242-38.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:47 fasta: you can write inline C code in ecl. There is zeta-c, you may try to port it to CL or you may just write a new C implementation in CL. It shouldn't be more difficult than to write a Scheme implementation in CL. What would be more work is to write enough standard C libraries and enough FFI to make it useful (to be able to compile non-trivial C libraries). 13:22:40 That said, it would be very interesting for stand alone C libraries, since this would allow us to use them without going thru FFI. 13:24:53 -!- zmyrgel [~user@193.64.112.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:12 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:28:23 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:52 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@101.63.175.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:33:37 Quadrescence: editor support is easily added in emacs. 13:34:11 usually. 13:34:45 Quadrescence: just have a look at Zeta-C 13:39:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 13:39:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 13:39:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:12 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:40:24 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 13:41:08 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42:52 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:28 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.250.111] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:46:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:40 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-242-14-97.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 13:46:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 13:46:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:48:43 fantasti` [~user@211.95.61.35] has joined #lisp 13:50:09 -!- fantasticsid [~user@175.45.139.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:07 -!- fantasti` [~user@211.95.61.35] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:54:28 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:58:57 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:00:10 not only are there more than two cl protocol buffers libraries, two of them are from the same company 14:00:32 which ones ? 14:00:35 rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.248] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:01:20 protobuf (written by brown`) and cl-protobufs (written at what was ITA) 14:01:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:01 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:02:32 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 14:03:40 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-177-129.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:11 wtf is "protocol buffer" library? have not seen the term before 14:04:42 protobufs are a wire protocol that Google uses 14:04:47 ah 14:04:49 maxm: protocol buffers is a serialization format used at google. The name is related to previous v.1 of the protocol, though 14:04:49 er, is. 14:05:11 man the web stuff changes so fast I can't even keepup with buzzwords anymore, and I'm only not doing any web stuff for around a year 14:05:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for the web stuff changes so fast I can't even keepup with buzzwords anymore, and I'm only not doing any web stuff for around a year. 14:05:21 hah 14:05:39 maxm: fun thing - ProtoBufs aren't really web thing :) 14:06:32 although they do have some IPC support, but you have to provide transport layer 14:06:41 ah ok I googled.. lol google suffering from not invented here 14:06:41 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:07:00 these are exactly the Tuxedo FML view/buffers, invented like 30 years ago 14:07:12 so... not invented there, then 14:08:33 maxm: or ASN.1 or ... 14:08:35 I'm not sure it even qualifies as an "invention" to have a format with just a length and type field. 14:08:39 they fit their stuff 14:09:06 not just length type, but describing them in common language, then having a precompiler generate per-language bindings 14:09:45 also endianess and stuff 14:09:58 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@mailout.faxonline.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 14:11:38 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:11:47 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:26 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:15:08 Hi guys, I'm playing around with (SBCL's) performance a little bit and solved a simple task (see http://paste.lisp.org/display/130308) that involves a lot of hash table lookups. What confuses me a little bit is that providing a :size paramter for make-hash-table does not seem to make any performance difference for SBCL (although we are talking about 80.000 keys or so... ). I'm I overlooking something here? 14:15:18 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 14:15:33 For what kind of hash-table? 14:16:08 maxm: yes, protobufs are not a new idea 14:16:09 A string table 14:16:22 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.88.226] has joined #lisp 14:16:22 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 14:16:28 Which test did you specify? 14:16:29 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:35 maxm: but they are pretty simple and reasonably efficient 14:16:47 pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.112.37] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 and Tuxedo is owned by Oracle :D 14:18:48 Zhivago: I used a text file that consists of ~ 82000 different "words" (i. e. 82000 different keys in the hash table) 14:19:20 (and I meant 80000, not 80.000, sorry) 14:19:20 make-hash-table has a :test keyword. 14:19:37 What value did you specify for it? 14:19:38 Zhivago: I used 'equal. 14:19:42 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.112.37] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:07 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:25 pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.112.37] has joined #lisp 14:20:25 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:32 Ok. 14:20:40 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.112.37] has quit [Client Quit] 14:20:54 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:21:24 pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.112.37] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 The default :size value for SBCL is 16 so in my case it should involve a lot of rehashing and should not perform very well. 14:22:59 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 14:23:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:23:26 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:12 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:26 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:29:38 rosario: you're saying that it is too fast? 14:29:53 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.204.90] has joined #lisp 14:29:56 rosario: are you sure that hash table performance plays a role in your program? what did you measure and how? 14:30:48 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:31:23 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 14:33:20 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:34:57 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:35:32 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 14:35:44 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 14:36:27 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.88.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:36:58 RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has joined #lisp 14:38:22 H4ns: Maybe it doesn't. But the main loop consists of a (mapcar (lambda (x) (setf (gethash x word-table) (1+ (or (gethash x word-table))))) (split-into-words buffer)) and I'd guess that for 82000 entries you should be able to see a difference. 14:38:36 s/mapcar/mapc 14:39:05 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:32 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 14:40:04 I used a ~6 MB text file (this one: http://norvig.com/big.txt) to measure performance. 14:40:19 rosario: don't guess, measure. my guess would be that reading the file and splitting it into words are more expensive than the rehashing operations. 14:40:57 rosario: i'd isolate the operations so that it is easier to see performance difference. and i'd not optimize before i know that i have a problem. 14:42:40 I'd profile first (: 14:43:33 saage_ [~saage@189.73.24.202] has joined #lisp 14:44:44 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:32 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:44 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:57 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:47:12 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:50:16 -!- p_l [~pl@089-101-219086.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:53:25 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:06 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:55:22 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:56:52 pkhuong: antifuchs' reverse-smiley is contagious? (: 14:57:18 Harder to type. 14:58:38 I was infected many years ago. Maybe it's gone latent. 14:58:40 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:28 cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:11 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:06:53 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:07:08 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A237.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:08 nyef does the reverse smiley as well ... I guess I should start (: 15:09:41 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:09:43 Only people in the south hemisphere can do that. 15:09:52 Got to balance all those closing parens. 15:10:43 *drewc* is waiting for North and South to change places! (: 15:11:43 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.250.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:44 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:18:36 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:47 H4ns: Turns out you were right. Updating the table is cheap compared to my split-into-words method. 15:20:31 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:57 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:17 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:22:17 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:22:46 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:24:44 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:24:55 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:32 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A237.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:55 cfdm [~user@222.235.51.254] has joined #lisp 15:28:05 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:05 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:12 benny [~benny@i577A1EB4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:31 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:28:51 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:51 Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas1-cooksville17-1279271663.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:34:21 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:35:09 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:36:29 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:40:05 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:36 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:40:53 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:41:11 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 15:41:15 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA111B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:12 xaxisx_ [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 15:42:24 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:43:14 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:43:34 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:43:35 -!- xaxisx_ is now known as xaxisx 15:44:29 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-52-215.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:47 RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has joined #lisp 15:46:08 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:34 -!- rosario [~user@fsf/member/rosario] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:58 AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:47:08 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:48:35 H4ns: tar alert! 15:48:47 Xach: eek! 15:48:50 Xach: where? what? 15:48:52 H4ns: the directory into which cl-unicode 0.1.4 unpacks is named "cl-unicode-1.4.tar" 15:48:53 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:48:55 hello xach 15:48:58 i suspect the ".tar" is unintentional 15:48:58 and hans 15:49:02 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.215] has joined #lisp 15:49:15 hi loke 15:49:17 Xach: it definitely is 15:49:50 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:52:14 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:53:04 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:53:07 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:53:27 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:54:03 Xach: fixed on github, will need a while to travel to weitz.de 15:54:09 Xach: thanks! 15:54:43 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:55:11 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:56:10 tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 15:57:01 Guys I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing this is, so I'm asking for a general idea. I have a div that is the header, its background image is black and white. This background image extends to the contents div, since it overflows the header a little. The body has a separate base background image... What i want to do is have 'areas' within my page, such that a mouseover will replace the css and load a color version 15:57:27 I was thinking of just putting some invisible divs ontop of everything, not sure if its a good idea 15:57:40 quazimodo: this is not a good place to ask, sorry. 15:57:48 Unless you need help with the lisp code to do it. 15:57:52 Woope 15:57:56 Silly me!!! 15:58:10 i must have pressed something and switched channels in irssi!!! MY bad!! 15:59:08 baha i feel silly 16:00:07 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:00:44 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 16:01:18 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:02:50 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:03:27 H4ns: is it an automatic process? 16:04:46 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 16:07:06 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:09 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:11:12 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-80.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:35 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 16:16:24 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 16:17:42 RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has joined #lisp 16:22:03 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:44 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:53 asvil [~asvil@178.121.90.238] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:46 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 16:25:25 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@194.126.108.9] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 16:26:54 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:13 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:29:26 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:29:33 -!- gf4 is now known as gf3 16:30:00 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 16:30:57 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:30:57 Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 16:33:57 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-247-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:04 lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-20-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:52 m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.138] has joined #lisp 16:38:49 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:39:01 sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has joined #lisp 16:39:29 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:08 hi 16:41:14 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:41:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:11 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:27 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-247-19-150.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:44:27 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:54 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-53-233.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:13 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.186] has joined #lisp 16:49:30 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:04 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has joined #lisp 16:55:34 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:08 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nacxhjyraegyzzzc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:53 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 16:57:54 -!- Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:58:19 Arbamisto [~Arbamisto@67.197.37.202] has joined #lisp 17:01:50 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 17:02:31 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:27 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 17:04:25 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:06:26 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.236] has joined #lisp 17:07:05 sergv_ [~sergey@217.77.215.6] has joined #lisp 17:08:47 pnq [~nick@ACA22CB0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:04 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has joined #lisp 17:12:41 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Quit: xaxisx] 17:13:40 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:18:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:20:22 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has joined #lisp 17:21:35 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.142.182] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:02 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:24:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:50 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:27:44 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30:10 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:30:20 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 17:34:11 -!- Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:38:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:43:32 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:05 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 17:44:20 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:38 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:57 zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has joined #lisp 17:45:08 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22CB0.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:58:38 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.27] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.27] has quit [Changing host] 17:59:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:01:17 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.112.37] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 18:06:50 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:06:54 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:56 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:08:49 *Xach* gets a lawyergram vaguely related to one of his lisp toys 18:11:01 It's a pity how hard it was to find a way to sign an email address up for massive amounts of the scummiest mailing lists, last time I needed to do that. 18:11:20 (for legitimate work purposes having to do with dealing with such garbage) 18:11:27 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:14:28 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.222.191] has joined #lisp 18:17:15 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-218-185.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:21:12 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.4.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:21:13 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 18:21:42 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:43 -!- BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:21:49 p_l [~pl@089-101-219086.ntlworld.ie] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 -!- kanru [~kanru@233.Red-88-7-119.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:22:34 ffwacom [ffwacom@CPE-123-211-225-204.lnse4.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:22:39 consider this: sexp 18:23:57 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 18:24:44 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-225.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:26:25 I imagine this is ask and answered before already but whats up with the package name conflicts around json with cl-json yason (and perhaps others)? 18:27:16 mon_key: they are package conflicts 18:27:53 -!- ffwacom [ffwacom@CPE-123-211-225-204.lnse4.woo.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 18:28:05 mon_key: rename them. com.domain.of.the.author.json vs. org.domain.of.another.author.json 18:28:21 That is a good idea if you like ugly things. 18:28:38 mon_key: everyone wants to use json: as a package nickname :( 18:29:07 Xach: Boo! 18:29:32 pjb: It's ok to like ugly things! 18:30:54 Words are ugly? 18:32:38 Xach: yes, they conflict. 18:33:17 mon_key: that's all there is to it. 18:33:33 sykopomp: yes, was wondering if there had been some informal #lisp attempts to rectify such sillyness (: 18:33:52 there are 18:34:01 but they're still non-portable and very much non-adopted. 18:34:01 phax_ [~phax@adsl-68-73-146-213.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:17 linkk [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 18:34:20 mon_key: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames is the one I like most right now. 18:34:29 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:34:38 Xach: pjb: my concern is how can/does one adapt for it e.g. should i use an asdf :after method and rename one package (i.e. cl-json from json to cl-json)? 18:34:39 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:34:57 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-83-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:13 sykopomp: No i meant more like, "Hey man, please stop doing that..." 18:35:36 "only load one json library at a time" is my solution :( 18:35:37 mon_key: I think the only option is pjb ugly one 18:35:53 pjb's mechanism is not that ugly, but the names are ugly. 18:36:03 you could use non-ugly names if you liked. 18:36:18 r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.28.122] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 Ok so abstractly i know _how_ to rename a package my concern is more around when this should occur? 18:38:06 blomqvist [Baluba@unaffiliated/blomqvist] has joined #lisp 18:39:00 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:40:44 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-80.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:00 Yo Xach, long time no see. 18:42:47 When there was only one set of footprints, I carried you 18:44:30 Xach: er, was that to me? 18:46:25 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.156.171] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footprints_(poem) 18:48:07 it must be gigamonkey, otherwise he is reciting poetry 18:48:45 Holy crap, drewc too. I thought you were gone forever too. 18:49:47 I was away from #lisp for practically 1 full year. I am back now :) 18:50:05 I did not carry drewc 18:51:19 scrimohsin [~shamber@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:20 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:20 scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 18:53:03 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:04 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:17 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has joined #lisp 18:56:41 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:11 Xach: was there something funny about SLIME in Quicklisp in recent times? Like did you upgrade and then downgrade? 18:57:37 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:37 -!- tr-808_ [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:07 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 18:58:14 I haven't looked recently but it seems that I had a version in my quicklisp dir that looked newer than the one that quicklisp actually seemed to be using. 18:58:32 Hmm, I don't think so. I had a rapid update but I don't think I went backwards. 18:59:12 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:59:37 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089DDFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:29 The problem is that with the current package naming system, the only entity that can rename or add nicknames, is the ultimate program. 19:01:06 Libraries and library integrators must use the fully qualified names. 19:01:30 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C6943.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:07 Xach: I think we should be clear about who you have been carrying. You might get a visit from the porters' union if it's found that you've been undercutting them 19:02:11 mon_key: you can rename packages when you're writing a program (that won't be a library, can you guarantee that?). 19:02:26 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@74-220-196-96.bluehost.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:26 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@74-220-196-96.bluehost.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:02:26 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 19:02:28 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:03:15 -!- linkk [~user@178.239.26.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:17 pjb: Right now i can. Although it does make relying on a vanilla Quicklisp somewhat less fun. 19:04:59 I find it easier to just use (:use ) or (:import-from ) in defpackage. 19:05:40 would it not be possible to extend ASDF in some way to provide a mechanism alias packages as they are loaded? 19:06:08 pnq [~nick@ACA2FEE2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:20 I don't think it would be a good idea. 19:06:41 pjb: Specifically my conundrum is this - the system cl-json defpackages :json - the system yason defpackages :yason and nicknames :json 19:06:44 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:07 mon_key: that in itself is not a problem; loading both of them at the same time is a problem. 19:07:22 mon_key: only the system author knows if a package name can be removed. 19:07:31 (intern sym "MY-PACKAGE"). 19:07:37 Xach: Yes. it is having both present that is problematic 19:07:48 if you rename my-package to author.his-package, then this will fail. 19:07:57 pjb: that's kind of the problem package-local-nicknames is supposed to solve, isn't it? 19:08:02 So you need to keep the old name and this doesn't help with your json problem. 19:08:05 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:09:18 dlowe: yes, a hierarchical package name system is needed. And the conservative thing to do until somebody writes a CDR and implementors implement it, is to use the full hierarchical name, like com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum,  19:09:31 well, I guess it blows up anyway if you try to load them both 19:09:39 Xach: which isn't a _real_ problem in so much as i genererally don't need both. The _false_ problem is that when one wants to (for example) experiment with sliding some code leveragingg cl-json to leverage yason instead. 19:09:51 Once we have hirarchical package names, we can just use cesarum to name it.(relatively to com.informatimago.common-lisp, or relatively to some other provider). 19:10:49 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:11:07 or package-local-nicknames :p 19:11:14 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:11:45 really, I don't think that packages need to be placed in a hierarchy, except nominally 19:11:49 pjb: CDR? 19:12:00 as long as they don't conflict and you can gracefully rename them 19:12:03 http://cdr.eurolisp.org 19:12:30 the json affair is proof they need to be placed in a hierarchy. 19:12:58 dlowe: In a Quicklisp'd world renaming is scary 19:14:21 mon_key: Why? 19:14:59 pjb: I don't think hierarchical packages have any use in a world where you can have local nicknames. 19:15:06 right. There's a difference, though, between having a convention of domain1.author1.json:foo and domain1.author2.json:foo, and being able to (use-package domain1.author1) json:foo 19:15:27 and between hierarchical packages and local nicknames, I would much rather have local nicknames. 19:15:42 The former is quite valuable if you have local nicknames. I don't care about the latter. 19:16:06 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:16:26 *dlowe* wonders how much effort it takes to get a CDR accepted 19:16:36 dlowe: none. 19:16:40 that is, beside writing it. 19:16:56 *sykopomp* wonders how many of them have actually been accepted by implementors, so far. 19:16:57 what will take more efforts, is convincing implementors to implement your CDR. 19:17:05 *sykopomp* wonders if Gray Streams were a CDR. 19:17:18 gray streams precede the CDR process by decades 19:17:31 and MOP. 19:17:34 SHUPFS` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:49 so... how many CDRs have actually become reality? 19:17:51 there's an easy way to tell if something was a cdr 19:18:03 sykopomp: the last one was #8 IIRC. 19:18:05 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.204.90] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 19:18:07 Is it widely available? Then it is not described by a CDR. 19:18:17 Xach: maybe i'm misunderstanding my problem, but I expect that the current Quicklisp dist is reasonably sane and system dependencies don't/won't conflict. if/when I have a running image with existing systems relying on the package qualified symbols of FOO and then i have to rename package FOO to BAR what happens when there is macrology wich references the old package qualified symbols? 19:18:39 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:18:47 mon_key: nothing bad. 19:18:52 Xach: I'm not saying your dists _are not_ sane but rather that they are and i want to keep them that way :) 19:19:01 mon_key: the problem comes when creating new symbols (by loading code, or by read-from-string, or something) 19:19:06 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:19:21 macrology on existing interned symbols is no problem 19:19:50 any macrology that interns referencing a fixed name for a package is a possible problem 19:19:51 nha [~prefect@g225074166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 so I can expect that a reference to a package qualified symbol cached in some hash-table will be updated when renamed? 19:21:23 mon_key: a symbol has a slot for its home package object 19:21:30 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:31 mon_key: the home package has a slot for its name 19:21:37 there are seven 19:21:53 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-20-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 19:22:02 so the symbol's reference to its home package name is indirect 19:22:11 and renaming need not change the symbol 19:22:35 OK great. thank you for helping me to better understand what is happening. 19:23:30 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 19:23:49 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:04 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.156.171] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:25:13 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-53-233.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:27:40 It'd be useful, perhaps, if implementors would write retroactive CDRs on informally agreed-on interpretations 19:27:54 but probably not to the implementors themselves, so I don't expect it to happen 19:28:12 It could be good, to avoid the need for libraries like closer-mop. 19:28:38 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 19:28:42 Xach: So to be sure, subsequent to a package renaming as long as a library or package doesn't do something silly like try to create/intern a symbol in the old package (which it doesn't own) then things are kosher. 19:29:09 mon_key: i can think of non-silly reasons a new symbol might be interned, but that's the general idea 19:29:35 pjb: or many of the trivial-* libraries 19:29:40 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.90] has joined #lisp 19:29:43 saage [~saage@201.11.39.79] has joined #lisp 19:29:44 -!- saage [~saage@201.11.39.79] has quit [Changing host] 19:29:44 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 19:29:59 Xach: OK 19:31:13 X-Scale [name@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 19:31:18 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 -!- cnl [~cnl@95.106.55.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:33:01 Codynyx [~Codynyx@c-75-72-28-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:07 -!- saage_ [~saage@189.73.24.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:33:19 closer-mop is needed precisely because there is no agreed-on interpretation 19:33:29 Wait, I've always been of the mind that it is considered verboten to intern symbols in a package one doesn't control. What would be a time when this isn't so? 19:33:41 the MOP has been specified for ages, but implementations choose to diverge from it 19:34:16 mon_key: a package might have a function that interns into itself. 19:34:45 mon_key: ASDF component classes is one example 19:35:05 So i reload the system and the defpackage form refers back to the old name because "Hey, its my namespace!" 19:35:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:27 mon_key: that's why package-local-nicknames are so important 19:36:10 -!- e__krappi [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:11 dlowe: Xach: fe[nl]ix: OK thanks I will take a look at these. Should be fun :P 19:36:34 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:08 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-80.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:10 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 19:37:29 mon_key: that's my point: you should not take control over the name or nicknames of a package provided by a library author. 19:37:32 AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:37:48 You can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname, but not cl:rename-package. 19:38:04 And if you restrict yourself to that, then the json problem is not solved. 19:38:06 quart44 [~user@192.162.102.159] has joined #lisp 19:38:36 -!- r_r_r [~chatzilla@77.127.28.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:41 If however the library authors had named their packages com.domain.author-1.json etc, you could easily add a json nickname to one of them. 19:41:10 pjb: I still think the additional nicknames need to be package local. As in, the value of *package* should influence qualified symbols interned by the reader and the package returned by FIND-PACKAGE 19:41:18 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41:30 dlowe: this would allow libraries to use them indeed. 19:41:46 Otherwise, you end up with two systems wanting to use the same nickname for two different packages, and you're back to the original problem 19:41:53 But since the public library names need to be fully qualified anyways, it's not strictly necessary. 19:42:36 Not strictly, but a large enough inconvenience becomes a de facto barrier 19:42:41 -!- quart44 [~user@192.162.102.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:43 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:43:13 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.204.90] has joined #lisp 19:44:00 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ukebxgfwdeuwxxfv] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:44:12 -!- agumonkey [~agu@85.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:44:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:57 pjb: I'd rather fork a library just to change the package name than clutter the code with 30-chars-long prefixes 19:45:27 I find it easier to just use (:use ) or (:import-from ) in defpackage. 19:46:53 lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:53 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@80.249.86.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:48:35 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.222.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:00 how much nicer to (:use (cl-ppcre re)) and then be able to use (re:scan ...) in your programs 19:50:02 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:50:03 -!- lemonodor_ is now known as lemonodor 19:50:14 sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0nk.dyn.edudsl.gr] has joined #lisp 19:50:50 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:26 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 cnl [~cnl@95.106.42.170] has joined #lisp 19:52:37 scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 19:54:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:00:41 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:12 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 20:01:16 Greetings lispers 20:02:54 DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:09:07 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:42 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 20:12:48 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:12:54 greetings 20:14:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.82.19] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:14:23 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:23 hello brown` 20:14:57 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:43 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:47 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:22:24 How great: brown` is brown :-) 20:22:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2FEE2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:22:38 (with this erc nickname colorization). 20:26:32 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:42 dmizzle [~dmizzle@65-130-132-248.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:13 Kryztof: do implementations diverge in regards to their MOP implementations because of some fuzziness in the spec or is it gratuitous? 20:31:09 steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:21 yes. 20:31:23 more or less. 20:35:03 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:25 pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:27 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 20:39:11 lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-209-191.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:58 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:30 it's not for me to declare whether it's gratuitous 20:42:48 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-209-191.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:03 Guthur: the other possibility is that certain features of the MOP are deemed too hard/not worth it to implement in certain implementations. 20:43:16 That's not necessarily "gratuitous"; just a trade-off. 20:43:17 lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-209-191.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:38 maybe if it given more weight with a CDR implementations might go that extra yard 20:44:48 but to be honest I don't even believe that myself 20:45:09 Guthur: I'm not sure CDRs have any particular weight. 20:45:33 yeah, and it's not like MOP is not 'weighty' enough in and of itsef 20:45:35 itself* 20:46:03 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.45.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:47:25 is there no CL prolog implementation in quicklisp 20:47:37 gambol doesn't seem to be there 20:47:46 there are afaik two 20:47:54 ql:system-apropos "prolog" 20:48:20 ah indeed 20:48:35 silly me forgot to aprpos 20:48:35 apropos* 20:49:16 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:57 flaviori_ [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has joined #lisp 20:50:29 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:52:06 -!- zwick [~zwick@12.200.95.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:53:16 does nobody read PAIP anymore? One of my favorite books! 20:53:22 Guthur: http://norvig.com/paip/prolog.lisp 20:54:03 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:32 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089DDFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:54:51 drewc: I actually tried implementing that recently, there was a bug in it which would not work in CL 20:55:09 oh actually scratch that 20:55:15 it was the pattern matching 20:55:52 sorry, I started there on a journey to implement the Prolog in PAIP but got I got waylaid 20:56:15 I want the prolog for some this weekend and do not have the time to implement it myself 20:56:25 s/some/something 20:57:30 well, iirc the prolog that is implemented there is avaiable via quicklisp. 20:58:52 yep, thats the one I selected 20:59:47 there's also a prolog like facility in picolisp 20:59:50 that's not a CL though 21:00:07 http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#pilog 21:00:14 you could pay Franz for theirs. 21:00:36 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@mobile-198-228-209-191.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 21:00:46 sykopomp: would you like to make a donation for that, hehe 21:01:14 Guthur: no 21:01:22 https://code.google.com/p/cl-gambol/ ? 21:01:36 dim: not in quicklisp 21:01:37 Guthur: you know about paiprolog? it has a bunch of bugs fixed 21:01:37 I will donate -$1000 ... please send me cash. 21:01:54 antifuchs: that's the one I selected from quicklisp 21:02:05 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:13 http://www.lambdassociates.org/ and Qi maybe too 21:02:26 is that not working for you? 21:02:45 or even http://www.shenlanguage.org/ apparently 21:02:54 haven't tried yet 21:02:57 I only just asked about it 21:02:58 that looks like a lisp like language embedding a prolog 21:03:23 ah, ok 21:03:28 dim: Since we're no longer talking about CL, how about you start suggesting Java-based alternatives now? 21:03:30 I think it may be what you are looking for (: 21:03:36 one time i wanted this pretty badly and i ended up merging SWI-porlog and ECL 21:04:14 it was easiert to embed each into each otehr 21:04:15 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.250.194] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:05:28 Guthur: you need raw processing speed of prolog? 21:06:34 and as much ISO compatiblity to load lot of prolog code prewritten than i'd suggest it 21:06:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:47 -!- flaviori_ is now known as flavioribeiro 21:07:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 another possibility and dont laugh.. is to start implmenting CL in prolog 21:07:53 it needs to be done by someone one of these days 21:09:16 is there a definition of a minimally required lisp interp.. thenm everyting else can come from .lisp files? 21:09:31 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:10:26 it'd be so nice if everyone sbcl,ecl,abcl,mclim whatnow all one day collaberated on that 21:10:29 dmiles_afk: yes. Special operators. 21:10:30 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:10:37 dmiles_afk: that with the minimal compilation algorithm. 21:11:10 dmiles_afk: I've not been able to work on it this year yet, but I still plan to finish it. 21:11:35 sykopomp: do you think picoLisp is more comparable to Java than to CL? interesting. 21:12:14 pjb: so your plan is to 'spec'+.lisp files ? 21:12:44 -!- alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:12:47 dim: you may as well be comparing C and JavaScript, afaict. 21:13:20 pjb: do you think it'd be usefull to work backqward from sbcl? 21:13:21 perfect, just don't consider reading about picolisp then, so that you can continue trolling! 21:13:49 pjb: well actually working backward from which lisp do you think makes the most sense? 21:14:02 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:29 dim: Better trolling is to /join ##c and ask them how to navigate the browser DOM. 21:14:51 go ahead, you'll tell us about it 21:15:40 dim: Why would I do such a thing? 21:16:27 dmiles_afk: implementation of implementations is in general too implementation specific. 21:16:43 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:27 dmiles_afk: So I don't know what you mean by "working backward", but starting from an implementation to do it would be more work. Of course, we can take some bits of code from implementations. (eg. I'm taking some macro definitions from clisp). 21:17:34 -!- cheezus [~Adium@wks201.inter-intelli.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:18:31 alexander__b [~alexander@140.100.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:18:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-110.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:58 Inode [~inode@time.uk.chromedpork.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:05 pjb: yeah.. figured as much. this non implementation .lisp codebase that i was imagining.. whould have to have a very strongly used +#SBCL etc so implmentation specific code can be inserted 21:19:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-202-80.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:02 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-247-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:12 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:14 pjb: working backwards yes would be taking some bits of code from each implementations (i suppose i was wondering if one was the easiest to take almost everything from) 21:20:55 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:12 dmiles_afk: the problem is that implementations are written to be optimized on the targets. 21:21:20 pjb: but i suppose trying to choose once implmentation means you'll probly pick something out that isnt very tried and true version of lisp 21:21:51 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@119.111.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:21:54 dmiles_afk: writing a modular minimal compiler means that we just depend on the special operators, and that we just have to implement them on the various targets we later want to port it to. 21:22:36 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@bl19-250-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:22:46 pjb: i suppose then this will become another version of lisp out there ? at least its more expandable target wise ;) 21:22:59 Then we can just use sicl or sacla or indeed some lisp code form implementations for the higher layers. 21:23:17 dmiles_afk: yes, one application is an easily retargettable implementation. 21:23:28 Another application is in code walkers and similar tools. 21:23:38 global analysis, etc. 21:23:59 pjb: I wondering how to get all the lisp muscles from the other lisp prjects to spend lots of times expanding our lisp codebase 21:24:20 doing things like ensuring MOP works etc 21:24:48 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.215] has joined #lisp 21:24:50 getting the system as usable as everyone's favorites 21:25:47 would completeness be that we can emulate that we're sbcl? 21:26:18 Well, I imagine this modula minimal compiler as a library for tool builders. The retargettable CL implementation would be nice just to shut up silly discussions on irc or ccl, like, you wana a CL on bash? and two hours later you have a running quicklisp compiling libraries on bash. 21:26:34 Or to random platforms such as Android or iOS. 21:26:54 Usuability would come from other tools, such as portable hemlock, etc. 21:28:00 indeed 21:29:32 i need to understand what quicklisp is.. i been working too hard to understand.. but is it a defining neutral CL target? 21:30:00 *dmiles_afk* reads for a minute 21:30:15 it replaces asdf-install 21:30:31 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 21:30:32 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 21:30:32 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 21:30:57 gathers the libraries in a central place (always on-line, no dangling links), and downloads them automatically when you load a library with dependencies. 21:31:05 http://quicklisp.org 21:31:08 ok yepo i just read that.. thats awesome. 21:33:21 ok so this lisp system we are talking about.. it'd would have its special-operators -> all the way to ANSI.lisp -> all the way to MOP.lisp ? 21:34:04 (just like every implementation out there does) 21:34:20 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.90.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:34:24 well has the 2nd to parts 21:35:14 cheezus [~Adium@12.188.100.130] has joined #lisp 21:35:47 what i see myself doing probly is ending up having some implmentation specific optimization i am going to be immediately short circuting in 21:36:31 not to break our model but to make our model feel expandable 21:37:48 if that code was removed we'd expect it to still work on my impl 21:38:01 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:38:08 (as a requirement i'd expect to enforce to myself) 21:39:15 pjb: would that be part of your vision? 21:39:20 Eventually it would be a whole CL implementation, missing only implementing the special operators and a few primitives (GC, conses, fixnums, etc). You would only have to implement that to retarget it. 21:39:50 So you would have just to write that in prolog to have a CL implementation working in prolog. 21:40:30 it seems like every mature lisp system coulda/shoulda took thios route 21:40:45 (your described route) 21:41:03 Well, as I said, in general implementations are implementation specific. 21:41:30 eg. lately I've watched a lot of ccl code, and it's full of ccl-isms like %i+ instead of +, etc. 21:41:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:43 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:42:18 do you think it was forced to.. or just was trying to save time? 21:42:39 yes, those are micro optimizations. 21:43:10 if they would have use #%i+ that would have been better ;) 21:43:28 well i just mean that the reader to deoptimize it 21:45:33 abcl isnt a good example but know its codebase pretty well... the amound of support it does in java is pretty maximal.. but what is kinda neat is they are forcing all imporovemnts to impl to appear only as .lisp 21:46:31 there is little interest by them to do stuff in the impl language 21:46:53 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0CED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:58 (which i know ehu .. i gripe about .. lol) 21:47:24 ehu: so thats a good thing :)\ 21:48:17 pjb: i totally wish your/our lisp existed 21:48:37 For now I have to work on other projects to earn some money :-( 21:49:04 pjb: my problem to.. and also my already existing OS projects that keep begging more work 21:49:39 pjb: it though is crazy that your idea is not been picked up like about 50 times by people over the past 20 years! 21:50:17 People are obsessed by speed. 21:50:49 This wont necessarily give fast implementations. But it will be more useful than a single implementation I hope. 21:50:53 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-241-193.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0CED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:52 if you give people a way to add speed (and a way for other base impls to ingore what xvcl optimised in for itself) i cant see why it'd not be adopted by every impl that exists 21:52:13 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-232-224.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:20 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:54:00 (xvcl is made up there) 21:55:44 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bcv121.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 21:55:51 so i am hoping franz for instance could add all their hooks and bannanas to your code.. mqaking it only no more than 2ce the diskspace 21:56:36 but still ran as fast as theirs runs.. with the same memory overhead they have 21:56:40 Well, you would have to implement a "compiler" of the special forms to generate efficient code on the current target. 21:57:04 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0CED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has quit [Quit: scrimohsin] 21:58:38 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:42 yeah.. every impl could have such a thing.. just not manditory.. though the big question is how much of your code could yheir compiler reuse 21:59:31 dmiles_afk: sorry I was afk there, speed is not really that much of an issue for me at the moment 21:59:35 All of it: it should be conforming code. 22:00:06 and ISO compliance isn't much of problem either...I hope 22:00:23 on Saturday there is a hacking event at the local Hackerspace 22:00:52 datamining some crime related data, and I want to see if I could leverage CL and Prolog in some interesting fashion 22:01:16 pjb: how much time (by yourself) would this project take? 22:01:27 probably wont produce anything all that interesting but should be a learning experience 22:01:43 scrimohsin [~shamber@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 -!- scrimohsin [~shamber@static-50-43-21-138.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:01:43 scrimohsin [~shamber@unaffiliated/scrimohsin] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 On the subject of CL implementations, I would like to implement CL ontop of Forth 22:02:12 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:02:14 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:02:38 I think Forth might make an interesting platform abstraction layer 22:02:54 Guthur: produce a mud that lets you say: "go north" and prolog assert (exit-from (current-loc *user*) "north" (new-room)) 22:03:45 guther: to me that is the ultimate usecase in a prolog/lisp mix 22:05:53 a mud that is defined soley by prolog assertions, that has the intrepter/parser in lisp 22:07:12 then "logical" rules can be made that use assertions to forward chain into new objects in rooms and behavours of the mud "world" concentrating on worldbuilding rather than on NPC actions 22:07:23 ok, I'll let you know went it's available to log into, hehe 22:07:29 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:07:56 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:59 actually though that isn't a million miles away from some other use for Prolog I would like to try 22:09:15 Current I work building 'Feedhandlers', software that connects to exchanges and serves up the data. I was thinking that if one could express the Business Logic in Prolog it might be possible to autogenerate the Feedhandler code 22:09:52 and then just tweak the logic per exchange and get new code 22:10:51 at the moment we have large spec documents and even large amounts of C++ code, all requiring upkeep 22:11:01 quite labour intensive 22:11:57 of course the company will never fund research in this area 22:12:15 we have two chosen languages C++ and Tcl 22:12:19 dmiles_afk: IIRC, most of it is already done. There remains to implement setf, and the macros in CL. 22:12:35 So I'd say still one or two months of work. 22:12:46 to get something usable and publishable. 22:12:47 zmv [~zmv@186.204.123.135] has joined #lisp 22:13:11 -!- zmv is now known as Guest82132 22:13:31 dmiles_afk: have you had a look at PopLog? It has prolog and CL implementations targetting their poplog VM. 22:14:29 havent looked at poplog in a very very long time.. i am glad it's not dead.. and actualyl hrrm .. the big questoion is iof i can run my fav lisp program in it :) 22:14:49 -!- Quaydon [~aaaaaaa@cpe-024-074-028-225.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:18 Well, I don't know if it has FFI, but I'd hope conforming code would run. 22:15:28 Yes, perhaps quicklisp couldn't run on it :-( 22:15:45 But I guess if there was users, they'd extend it so that it could. 22:16:23 dmiles_afk: of course, we've done that style of programming for a long time, but it's not Lisp 22:17:11 we've really found through our experience that bolting 2 languages together is inferior to looking at the problem and solution space on their own, using existing languages as seeds of thought, not implementation templates 22:17:31 pjb: I think it's cltl 22:17:48 of course, you're losing out on the ability to reuse existing code that way, but you're talking about writing a new mudalike; that's new code regardless 22:18:15 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:18:17 Phoodus: PopLog has both languages separately - it's more of a bytecoded VM that happens to have certain languages implemented on top of it 22:18:23 the amount of time you spend bolting things together and fixing impedance mismatches in assumptions can also be used to create something new 22:18:32 (and it's lowlevel enough to make it not matter) 22:19:14 yeah, that's also a good backend/bottom-level starting point 22:20:54 but my point was to think about what a language that combines a selection of benefits from multiple languages would look like, instead of just going with using those languages together 22:20:56 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:22:39 i think that style of programming mixing prolog and lisp together would end up doing yes.. picking just s-expressions 22:22:46 or "just lisp" sure 22:23:27 Phoodus actualyl has an impl of what i think i want.. now still trying to get time to use it! 22:23:30 Sorella [~quildreen@187-127-252-15.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:23:31 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@187-127-252-15.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Changing host] 22:23:31 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:23:35 heh 22:24:02 when we looked at what we want, we reduced all right-hand-side functionality of the logic rules to just assert/retract/send-message 22:24:25 because thinking about the problems as a whole, we didn't want the logic polluted with multiple ways of performing actions 22:25:14 it's an effect of taking a step back, and at least from our perspective, trying to get the simplest language (of course, requiring a complex back-end) to sufficiently express what we wanted to do 22:25:38 (btw: the reason i starting talking of lisp/prolog hybrid.. is for optimization (just raw processing tiome of prolog facts)) 22:25:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:26:06 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:17 do any of the prologs perform caching or automatically generate indexes now? 22:27:04 (that unification over facts and brute force prolog neck expansions .. example solving towers of hannoi)) 22:27:24 -!- Guest82132 is now known as notzmv 22:27:58 there are fast prologs 22:28:11 Phoodus: I think SICStus and XSB have semi-automated tabling; I expect that's a common extension. The fancy datalogs obviously have a lot of that. 22:28:14 and some are fast enough to be used for routing code 22:28:36 the biggest problem I had with prolog was the mixing of imperative changes within the query bodies 22:28:49 some generate pretty good indexes.. assert(foo([A|B]):-bar(A,B))).. becomomes foo([A|B]):-foo_list(A,B). foo_list(A,B):bar(A,B) 22:28:50 it makes it really hard to do certain optimizations and caching, since most of prolog is functional 22:28:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:29:29 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 22:29:46 (and of course you need to deal with backtracking very carefully if modifications are involved) 22:30:28 pnq [~nick@AC814531.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 one thing i realize is a impl of DataLog is problyy more important than Prolog 22:31:35 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:47 i wonder if DataLogs expect to handle If->Then;Else 22:31:50 -!- Kenjin_ [~josesanto@bl19-250-194.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 22:32:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:32:26 Phoodus's impl is a datalog i think 22:32:45 well at least the better 1/2 of it 22:33:01 it's probably most closely related to production systems 22:33:19 the unbetter 1/2 is the heavy use of backchaining 22:33:48 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0CED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:54 does datalog have actively firing rules in it? I thought it was just a query system 22:36:26 nope i guess its missing some of that 22:36:56 so yeah, I wouldn't call it a datalog 22:37:10 -!- SHUPFS` is now known as SHUPFS 22:37:46 the components if i understand myself i think i need is: (equals (DaugtherOfFN BillClinton) ChelseaClinton) to be true due to the fact that (daugtherOf BillClinton ChelseaClinton) being true 22:37:54 autonomous behavior acting on the very presence of knowledge is what I wanted 22:38:27 i'd want to assert (equals (DaugtherOfFN BillClinton) ChelseaClinton) and have the forward rule fire maybe and make this true: (daugtherOf BillClinton ChelseaClinton) 22:38:53 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:43 mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:39:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-68-55-121.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 22:39:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:39:54 I view restatements like that to be internal optimization, which the programmer shouldn't necessarily need to manage manually 22:40:24 and hence I have somewhat of an aversion to logic function forms like that 22:40:33 yes, i'd like to have them happen internally and stop thinking about such rules one day :) 22:41:02 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:38 i think i want is a datalog interface to a SHOP planner 22:42:13 then i want to define bussiness rules in STRIPS format to feed the SHOP planner 22:42:42 though i sound too much like i am trying to dictate impl then to solve a probblem 22:43:24 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:44 a production system sorta can work that way.. i am hoping the same problems are solved 22:44:20 i think the extra i worry about is how easiely a rule can detect its time to fire 22:44:37 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 meaning how obscurly a sytem lets me define things 22:45:05 that's why backchain rules in the LHS is beneficial 22:45:41 -!- poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-70-116-22-88.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:46:03 my assumption ( and purely specuilation) has been prolog is the only thing effecient enought often to do that level of backchain 22:46:09 and async messaging between services is generally a better integration model than direct calls 22:46:29 for certain levels of complexity in the problem at hand 22:48:04 i think all cases of backchaining can be forweard chained in impl 22:48:20 the way I see complex integration of things like planners and other rule systems and all that is that something like GTS is a coordinator, managing what has to go to which separate unit 22:48:31 it breaks up the individual units to be implemented quite well 22:48:34 like in CYC you can convert any backchain rule to forward chain and not hurt it's logic 22:48:51 right, our RHS are actually side effects, not truth statements 22:49:14 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@123.208.203.237] has joined #lisp 22:49:17 but generally, isn't BC->FC just an optimization? 22:49:19 (just insanly grow its deduction cache and trigger more forward chaining) 22:49:51 yes.. and FC->BC is just anothe4r optimization 22:50:11 and caching BC results is effectively just doing that lazily 22:50:28 (FC->BC an otpimization to save ram .. probly) 22:50:34 without exploding every single possibility 22:51:14 yeah.. so all this is about optimization.. not a issue of loigic 22:52:24 i guess though there are times when people used forward chain to produce a trigger.. like for example.. if a customer should be out of paper.. to assert in some database its time for them to reoder 22:52:46 reorder paper* 22:52:48 what sort of depth are you talking about? implementing planners inline in a single backchain operation? 22:53:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:53:22 well the planner should be able to make a query and not worry it needed 10 or 0 backchains 22:55:21 so the planner itself would either be written in the rule system, or have to make callouts to the KB to access data 22:55:59 oh the planner also though might need the database to proform another function like fill in a script of actions.. (make-Document (send-mail me you) ?someDoc) and have someDoc come out with (email (from me) (to . you) (subject . "unknown") (body . "unknown")). 22:56:58 sounds like your planner should be running on your rule system, not as a prepackaged system 22:56:58 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has joined #lisp 22:57:21 definatly.. yeah i cant immagine it'd be effecient to separate them 22:58:05 and the only problem you're facing is speed, but it sounds like your time is spent during useful inference? 22:58:06 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.229] has joined #lisp 22:58:51 yeah .. the pklanner probly is always waiting for the knbowledge base to figure things out 22:58:57 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59:05 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:59:17 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:43 i also want the planners rules to be saved in that kb to 23:00:15 you can obviously do this in GTS, but I can't make any guarantees about the speed without knowing more 23:00:26 -!- nha [~prefect@g225074166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:00:59 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814531.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:11 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:30 zbigniew [zb@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:960c] has joined #lisp 23:03:52 " so the planner itself would either be written in the rule system, or have to make callouts to the KB to access data" <- i wonder sometimes if the rules system needs to be rugged enough that in it's rules language i *can* implmnet a planner 23:04:12 or just pluggable enough i can plug an existing one in 23:04:20 the firstplanner I implemented was in a GTS precursor 23:04:33 rule programming is turing-complete 23:05:27 if I were you, I'd be thinking of how to parallelize the system 23:05:43 different planning branches, parallel complex queries running against the KB, etc 23:05:57 I suspect what you're doing now is only running single-core 23:05:59 ? 23:06:43 yeah.. yeah though the planner i guess could request all the preconditions for truth at once 23:07:20 or enumerate all teh preconditions for all the possible actions 23:07:35 and run all those in a Dominance fromat 23:07:45 dominance format 23:08:19 (where for exmaple if all rules nneed (isNightTime) to be true.. it runs that first) 23:08:46 (planner rules that is) 23:09:13 plan branch workers running threaded, then issuing their preliminary results to a central planner seems appropriate, if the query is where the time is spent 23:09:14 but sure roght now.. i am sort of runing things one at a time 23:09:46 seeing as that's mostly functional work, it should scale very well across cores 23:09:55 but if you're 1000x slower than what you want, probably not enough 23:12:14 still single threaded prototyping.. (that is making STRIPS files) 23:12:39 (oops well .pddl files) 23:13:18 I think you're going to have more trouble getting the guts of STRIPS to access your data than to write a simple planner (since the time is not being spent there) in rules 23:14:40 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:36 yeah data access right now are calls to C# code.. sort like one function per what w'ed hope a logic system would deduce 23:16:09 since in practice sometimes its easier just to solve the problem than design elegant infernce 23:16:29 (elegant infernce that does FC/BC) 23:16:47 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-83-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:55 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:17:20 "just solve the problem" declaratively is often easier ;) 23:17:34 even if you have to implement some of that declarative infrastructure 23:18:03 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:05 so we are working on learning just how much musscle the planner needs to have to 23:18:24 here is anexample of isSttingGround: http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/source/browse/trunk/bin/examples/hillpeople/aimlbot.pl#10 23:18:35 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.222.191] has joined #lisp 23:19:06 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-83-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:19:06 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 23:19:09 bv:hook_botvar_get/3 there calls the C# 23:19:32 that's ... not very data-driven 23:19:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:44 yet seems to be quite templated 23:20:03 yeah.. we needed some exa,mples for ourselves to start out with 23:20:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:32 is this still 2nd life? 23:20:34 that file there could have been produced automaticaly 23:20:41 right 23:20:45 mathrick__ [~mathrick@94.144.63.87] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 (the stubs between data and secondlife that is) 23:21:21 is the "set" a command to attempt to sit, or is it just reflecting the value of a flag? 23:21:38 setting will make the bot sit or stand in world 23:22:23 so the planner's output action might be (bvset isGroundSitting False) 23:23:01 if a goal was: (bvget isGroundSitting False) 23:23:34 so lines 10-19 define a side effect fact 23:23:48 (those where the only lines i was interesting in showing) 23:24:12 if the bot is flying through the air, does it still "sit" on command? 23:24:19 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.195.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:52 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c372.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:32 yeah .. (bvget isFlying False) in the planner has to be False to for (bvset isGroundSitting True) 23:25:48 oops has to be true in the planner 23:25:59 it can get/set both of those 23:26:24 so there is some async lag and potential to fail 23:26:56 right so this is a rule .. that can be deduced with a assertion like (disjoint isFlying isGroundSitting) .. whyt infernce engines get mixed into all my problem statements 23:27:53 lots of async failures in the present system :) 23:28:55 I bet :) 23:29:10 also it looks like your callouts to the external system are all synchronous with return code 23:29:26 that's a real potential for slowdown, depending on what's going on there 23:29:33 "infernce engines get mixed into all my problem statements" <- i often find too many places that i would rather the infenrce system generate rules.. and often even code 23:30:05 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:31 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 23:32:36 right 23:32:54 you need to separate out your statements of what you want done from explicit rule language semantics 23:33:06 that'll also help you see what kind of language would be best suited 23:33:22 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:33:28 you seem to pseudocode very little and just jump straight into programming language 23:33:49 just something to think about 23:33:53 yeah we created a language that is translated to .pddl 23:34:13 it uses tabs to decide function blocks ;P 23:34:43 well it designed to look like english .. hehe 23:34:45 whee :) 23:34:51 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:34:53 yeah, that never seems to work ;) 23:35:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 23:37:30 pnq [~nick@ACA325A0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:57 so still deciding in my secondlife toy example (this is differnt from work-work .. but related enough for conversation) if reactive production system... events take place.. actuon ensures.. or if i ennumerate goals.. and then match them to states 23:42:21 the output of planner then does actions 23:42:40 there's really no difference between goals and triggers 23:42:47 technically 23:43:22 so placing a goal in the system can produce a list of actions 23:43:42 trigger the output of a list of actions 23:44:33 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:44:41 k0001 [~k0001@host76.190-228-122.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:45:37 neomage [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:49 I take it the planner is an "offline" planner? 23:46:44 oh right now.. it is a prolog planner called hyhtn.. that is ran every 5 seconds to decide what the next action will be 23:47:02 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:47:24 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:47:25 ran in its own thread 23:47:48 if an actiaon is still running durring that 5 second interval it just waits 23:48:23 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:44 all the bots do is runing arround planting and harvesting corn 23:48:57 centipedefarmer [~centipede@71-34-167-149.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:51 i finishing up the prolog API this week.. i embeded ABCL into the bots as well so going to try to use SHOP planner 23:50:22 i wonder if GTS will run in ABCL 23:51:04 oh its a special hacked version of ABCL though that runs on IKVM 23:55:25 Phoodus: you said you did most of the work on SBCL? 23:58:00 yes 23:58:33 RandyTravis [~RandyTrav@189.223.66.223.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:40 -RandyTravis:#lisp- god damn nigger lovers I am going to kill every staffer on freenode http://www.chimpout.com/forum 23:58:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:26 wingy [~wingie@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:32 why is it called lisp? 23:59:43 wingy: LISt Programming. 23:59:52 i actually thought about that 23:59:54 haha 23:59:56 processing? 23:59:58 which is somewhat anachronistic now