00:00:28 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:01:25 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:20 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has joined #lisp 00:10:49 -!- b_ [~b@cpc14-acto3-2-0-cust114.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:11:10 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:4171:3a00:226:5eff:feef:4700] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:11:16 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 00:13:53 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:4171:3a00:226:5eff:feef:4700] has joined #lisp 00:18:17 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 00:24:34 Quadrescence: You might want http://series.sourceforge.net/ 00:26:00 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-169-88-121.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 00:26:06 I'm familiar with SERIES. I'm just wondering if compilers are getting Sufficiently Smart (tm) at functional programming, and especially programming with sequences. 00:27:46 Quadrescence: Well, the complier would have to be able to determine that the functions don't have any side effects in order to be allowed to compose them that way. 00:27:56 That's right. 00:28:52 Quadrescence: I've played with hacking a PURE declaration into CCL, but now I forget what I was trying to accomplish with it. 00:30:35 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:36 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:32:52 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:33:06 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 sellout, i'll opt in to work on it with you 00:33:46 I was going to try to get it in SBCL but I still have a lot to learn about SBCL before I can do anything. 00:35:23 Man, I suck at writing things down. Just searched my system for notes about it, and came up with "Add DECLARE PURE to CCL. Also, DECLARE CONSTANT for individual arguments."  I don't even know why I'd want that stuff now. 00:36:15 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37:48 -!- Framedragger [~k@unaffiliated/framedragger] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:20 sellout: the compiler is, e.g, free to evaluate the function at compile-time when the arguments are constant 00:38:53 very useful for a FFI's sizeof operator 00:39:15 sellout: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/base/deffoldable.lisp#L38 00:40:21 fe[nl]ix: I think my declare constant was meant more as a promise that you're not going to (setf (cdr foo) nil) in the function. It'd help if I had written something down about it, though. 00:41:04 I thought it was discussed in here at some point, but my search of the logs finds nothing. 00:43:04 btw, it would really be nice if CCL got that capability, of compile-time evaluation based on a user declaration :) 00:43:21 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:49 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:48:52 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 00:49:26 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:50:31 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:53 -!- kanru` [~kanru@61-228-144-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:59 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:56:33 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 00:57:34 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:57:48 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 01:06:29 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:4171:3a00:226:5eff:feef:4700] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08:48 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:09:30 sharenothing [~user@ool-ae2cc661.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:53 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-84-39.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:03 fe[nl]ix: partial eval, you mean? 01:10:40 istr some discussion about SBCL having a partial evaluator. 01:14:16 edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:16:24 -!- Guthur` [~user@212.183.128.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:51 Quadrescence: iirc, sb-c:deftransform should be capable of expressing that fusion -- and functions can be marked as known-pure 01:17:05 (this is all unsupported internal stuff, of course) 01:17:16 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-84-39.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:35:49 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.33.181.226] has joined #lisp 01:39:07 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@2.80.247.218] has joined #lisp 01:41:58 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-250-91.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:43:44 antoszka: thanks again, it worked out great with what you pasted. saved me a lot of time (especially as it gave me a boost to get other stuff finished :)) 01:44:12 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-kuijlsimxrotwxwn] has joined #lisp 01:49:30 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:57 lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:03:11 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.231.196] has joined #lisp 02:05:15 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-50-151.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:39 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-46-229.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:08:30 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.194] has joined #lisp 02:08:53 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:14:02 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 02:15:03 saltmiser [saltmiser@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-bvnqidrtonpzhmsf] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 02:18:06 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:34 has anybody made an easier library to use with abcl to access swing? 02:19:53 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:55 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Offline] 02:22:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:31 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:14 glompst [~glompst@ip72-223-72-71.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:50 hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has joined #lisp 02:27:18 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 02:28:13 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:45 -!- hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:56 hugod [~user@76.65.142.49] has joined #lisp 02:34:41 ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:06 -!- wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:37:44 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:41:37 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@177.142.160.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:00 -!- EyesIsOther [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:55:07 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:57:37 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:59:06 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:46 FareWell [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:01:16 EyesIsOther [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 03:04:24 lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:06:07 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A2BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:35 roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has joined #lisp 03:06:43 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:06:49 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B9AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:11:12 you guys better appreciate APROPOS returning very quickly/almost instantaneously on modern machines! 03:12:58 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.33.181.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:21 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.116.112.221] has joined #lisp 03:15:38 gko [~user@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 03:15:45 kliph [~user@24-183-96-81.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:31 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:44 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:23:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:23:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:27:15 -!- sharenothing [~user@ool-ae2cc661.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:29:04 albertlee [~albertlee@59.108.40.194] has joined #lisp 03:32:13 too bad this (middle paragraph) is the exception and not the norm http://i.imgur.com/BFrlY.jpg 03:38:19 Quadrescence: you have a Lisp machine? 03:38:26 I'd love to try genera 03:38:32 i have two 03:39:06 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.87] has joined #lisp 03:39:08 Cool 03:39:10 You could run the alpha emulator in an alpha emulator, iirc. :) 03:39:18 is there any way it can be run on an emualtor? 03:39:27 ooh 03:39:31 that's a bit too much :-) 03:41:20 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:47:26 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:54:27 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:55:20 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:55:41 asvil [~asvil@178.120.170.99] has joined #lisp 04:01:24 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01:50 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 04:06:49 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:13:03 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.231.196] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 04:13:33 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:15:09 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 04:16:07 pnq [~nick@AC810AAF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:16 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 04:17:44 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17:59 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:20:07 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-173-66-213-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:24:54 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:30 -!- KindOne [KindOne@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has quit [K-Lined] 04:29:54 lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:30:54 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:35:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3E58.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:19 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:48:40 lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:50:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:53:10 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:17 loke: You could try this: http://patrickcollison.com/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines 04:57:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zgyvrvzzehhnxact] has joined #lisp 04:57:45 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:57:47 benny [~benny@i577A10AC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:57:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:19 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:02:00 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:02:03 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:02:16 -!- chu_ is now known as chu 05:02:52 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:04:16 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:30 mon_key [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:31 -!- mon_key [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:04:31 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 05:05:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:06:04 KindTwo [KindOne@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has joined #lisp 05:06:26 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:07:05 ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #lisp 05:07:05 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has quit [Changing host] 05:07:05 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #lisp 05:10:11 -!- ez271218 [d52f4724@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.47.71.36] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:11:43 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:12:48 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 -!- KindTwo is now known as KindOne 05:18:31 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:41 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:11 nostoi [~nostoi@91.Red-79-151-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:34 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-156-14.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:26:54 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:28:25 cmoore [~clintm@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:32 -!- cmoore [~clintm@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:34:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:36:36 Quadrescence: The point is that in (mapcar (lambda (x) (print `(second ,x))) (mapcar (lambda (x) (print `(first ,x))) '(1 2 3))), all the first prints must be done before all the second prints. 05:36:51 yes I understand that 05:37:45 Quadrescence: But nothing prevents you to take the sources of MAPCAR in your own package, and to change the _specifications_ of your mapcar copy, saying: the order of evaluation of the (f x_i) is not specified. And then write a define-compile-macro your:mapcar to do that optimization. 05:38:21 You're right again, nothing stops me from either writing or modifying MAPCAR. 05:38:53 The standard prevents you to modify mapcar (cl:mapcar). Nothing prevents you from duplicating or writing another one. 05:39:09 Viva shadow! 05:40:17 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:41:16 The question was not "how can I write these optimizations myself" but "do any Lisp compilers perform these kinds of opts" 05:42:59 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:27 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@91.Red-79-151-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:44:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:56 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 05:46:45 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 05:51:32 Given compiler-macros, any CL compiler might. 05:51:51 sbcl does some similar things, at the least. 05:52:38 Quadrescence: you cannot use define-compiler-macro on CL symbols. So you have to duplicate the function in your own package. 05:52:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:53:01 pjb, Yes... that is clear. 05:53:36 Actually, I think (defpackage :mine (:use) (:export :mapcar)) (setf (symbol-function 'mine:mapcar) (symbol-function 'cl:mapcar)) (define-compiler-macro mine:mapcar ) should be conforming and work. 05:54:10 And just adding (setf (documentation 'mine:mapcar 'function) "Order of side effects is not specified.") 05:54:42 *|3b|* thought the point was for it to detect there were no side effects and optimize for that case 05:54:55 that is correct 05:55:12 |3b| it's easier to specify the order of side effects is not specified :-) 05:55:31 <|3b|> depends on what you are trying to do though 05:55:42 In the above print first/print second example, perhaps you don't care in which order they printed. 05:55:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.173.90] has joined #lisp 05:55:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.173.90] has quit [Changing host] 05:55:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:56:43 <|3b|> not sure 'order of side effects is unspecified' actually describes that very well anyway 05:57:24 <|3b|> since in that case, it would be more that it mixes side effects with side effects of caller, but both are still in deterministic order 05:57:25 |3b|: read above! The exact quote is "the order of evaluation of the (f x_i) is not specified." 05:57:45 You're confusing specification from implementation. 05:57:51 <|3b|> it isn't 'order' though, it is 'completeness' 05:57:57 It didn't say the order was random. 05:58:32 And notably, it keeps the specs of cl:mapcar that the (f x_i) are evaluated separately in time: you cannot just run them in parallel. 05:59:26 *|3b|* would expect something evaluated in unspecified order to still all be evaluated before it returns 05:59:46 That would prevent futures. 06:00:46 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:02:39 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zgyvrvzzehhnxact] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:02:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 06:03:29 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 06:03:30 <|3b|> it sounds like the actual spec is "executes F on at least 1 element of list, maybe more in arbitrary order, maybe not" 06:04:06 THis is what the spec of cl:mapcar says indeed. 06:05:05 <|3b|> cl:mapcar is allowed to stop in the middle of the list if the function always returns properly? 06:05:08 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:05:39 So, all right, we need to widen the spec of mine:mapcar even more, to allow for the evaluation of external side effects even in presence of non-local internal exits: 06:06:06 *|3b|* was more concerned about external non-local exits 06:06:39 <|3b|> (mapcar 'error (mapcar 'print '(1 2 3))) do all of 1,2,3 get printed? 06:06:53 (block :exit (mine:mapcar (lambda (x) (print `(second ,x))) (mine:mapcar (lambda (x) (if (= 2 x) (return-from :exit)) (print `(second ,x))) '(1 2 3)))) could still print (first 1) (second (first 1)) (first 3) (second (first 3)). 06:07:12 |3b|: the could be not. 06:07:14 they 06:07:30 *|3b|* thinks this isn't a very useful mapcar 06:07:44 Yes, this is quite an excursion to the normal evaluation model. 06:07:56 <|3b|> would be much better to just specify a useful variant that explicitly does whatever transform we want 06:07:57 -!- NeedMoreDesu [~user@109.122.0.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:19 <|3b|> or keep what was originally asked for, which is transparently optimizing the cases where you can't tell 06:08:26 Let just write (mapcar (compose f1 f2  fn) list) when that's what we mean. 06:08:44 <|3b|> that too 06:10:19 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:10:20 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kzkixjpceenyogfu] has joined #lisp 06:11:23 DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:11:55 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.16.112] has joined #lisp 06:14:56 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:19 -!- Kenjin_ [~josesanto@2.80.247.218] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:17:25 kilon [~kilon@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 06:23:13 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:25:50 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:27:57 -!- edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Nuclear meltdown] 06:28:23 gz [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:47 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:31:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:32:46 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:49 madnificent: cool 06:32:56 prsteele [~user@dhcp-128-253-211-249.res-wired.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 06:34:19 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 anyone know how to suppress clisp output? whenever I start I get messages like ";; loading /foo/bar" 06:36:17 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:18 prsteele: you could bind *load-verbose* I think 06:38:40 there also is *load-print* 06:38:46 phadthai: how would I do that? 06:39:25 phadthai: it happens right when I launch clisp, and clisp -q/--silent doesn't help 06:39:28 possibly in ~/.clisprc or such 06:39:34 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.16.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:39:45 but I don't use clisp so I'm not sure of the config file name 06:40:02 phadthai: that is the file (well I have .clisprc.lisp, but ya) 06:40:57 phadthai: so that's really close, but it still prints the "loading .clisprc.lisp" line... 06:41:14 -!- roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:41:17 hmm maybe there's some other implementation-dependent setting 06:41:31 those two I mentioned are part of the standard 06:41:39 phadthai: thanks, though, that got rid of all but one of the messages 06:41:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:09 ah hmm maybe that one can't be suppressed too as it's part of clisp startup, heh 06:42:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:16 welcome 06:43:23 prsteele: clisp -q -ansi -norc 06:43:48 prsteele: then if you remove -norc, then it's up to you to know what load forms you have in your ~/.clisprc.lisp 06:44:25 pjb: so in general I would need to start up, (setq *load-verbose* nil), then load my rc? 06:44:45 Does it say that it's loading ~/.clisprc.lisp? 06:44:51 yes 06:44:56 which I would like to have happen 06:45:11 Then yes. 06:45:15 thanks 06:45:42 <|3b|> does -eval (or whatever clisp uses) happen before loading rc file? 06:45:49 prsteele: You can use: clisp -q -ansi ~/.clisprc.lisp 06:46:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:46:31 prsteele: You can use: clisp -q -ansi -norc ~/.clisprc.lisp # I mean. 06:46:37 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:37 <|3b|> looks like -q -q should turn off *load-verbose* 06:49:12 jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has joined #lisp 06:49:22 |3b|: perfect! 06:50:14 thanks all 06:50:21 I never noticed it, it must be a new option -q -q. 06:50:48 pjb: I missed it too, but is says it under --verbose 06:51:30 pjb: I stopped trying those options once --silent didn't help 06:55:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:56:15 -!- gko [~user@220.228.255.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:58:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-67-159.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 06:58:57 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:59:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:01:05 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:01:36 AeroNotix [~xeno@bcw51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:03:13 gko [~user@220.228.255.202] has joined #lisp 07:05:22 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:06:51 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-101-71.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:52 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-101-71.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:06:52 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:08:23 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.170.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:45 asvil [~asvil@178.120.170.99] has joined #lisp 07:09:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has joined #lisp 07:10:09 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:10:09 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:17:16 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:03 is it bad form to use eval? If I'm using eval, does that mean I should be using a macro instead? 07:19:39 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:21:19 For what purpose are you using eval? 07:22:18 Zhivago: (eval `(and ,@(list 1 2 nil))) 07:22:40 Why are you doing that? 07:22:50 Zhivago: basically want an 'all' macro, and if I'm only going to use it once I'm not sure if I should eval or defmacro 07:23:01 Why not use the every function? 07:23:20 zhivago: because I didn't know it existed :) tried searching for 'all', thanks 07:23:29 Excellent. 07:23:43 Probably defmacro would have been better than eval there, otherwise. 07:23:55 thanks! 07:23:57 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-002-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:31 prsteele: EVERY, SOME, NOTEVERY, NOTANY are all of the related functions 07:24:45 quadrescence: thanks! 07:26:48 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:26:55 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:21 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.137.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:21 check the dictionaries for sequence, list and arrays in the hyperspec, they're excellent reference 07:27:29 err vectors :) 07:27:50 well arrays too 07:28:54 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host113-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:30:00 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:30:18 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:34:05 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:35:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-92.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:37:20 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 07:37:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 07:37:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:40:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-185.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:10 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-185.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-226-248.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:43:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:44:56 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.170.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:45:25 prsteele: you're a filthy weasel! EVERY is noted in the See Also section of CLHS AND! 07:46:12 ;-) 07:47:47 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bcw51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 07:48:40 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:48:59 pjb: a;sldkfjas dl;fkajsd;fka sdlfkj 07:49:28 pjb: I learned unquote-splicing, and I thought, hm, I really just want to unquote-splice a list in and... 07:51:23 asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has joined #lisp 07:52:56 PKHG [~PKHG_afk@ip9135cb37.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 07:54:27 Hello ;-).. got a bunch of example(*.lisp ) comiled using SBLC in emacs with slime. suppose I start tomorrow again emas with slime, how do I acces the already compiled info? 07:54:40 comiled = compiled 07:57:11 PKHG: using quicklisp to load your system will automatically recompile to fasl (object files) if needed, and load the fasls otherwise. 07:58:07 the fals had become *.bin how do I load them ??? (newbie you should know) 07:58:16 fals =fasl 07:59:42 pkhuong: I would like to start sbcl in emacs and THEN ... load the bin files ... thats what I like to know how to do that .. ;0) 08:00:12 could again compile ... but that is probably not needed ;-) 08:00:22 I don't know what bin files are. 08:00:35 result of compilation ... 08:00:47 moment .. 08:01:16 #!c:\Program Files\Steel Bank Common Lisp\1.0.55\sbcl.exe --script 08:01:17 # FASL 08:01:19 compiled from "c:/common_lips_AI/auxfns.lisp" 08:01:21 using SBCL version 1.0.55 08:01:50 that is the to of the *.bin files ;-) 08:01:57 to = top 08:03:00 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-akynsihjslsuksav] has joined #lisp 08:03:44 I don't know what causes these files to end in bin. You can try LOADing them (which is often not much faster than recompiling). But, again, if you just made it an asdf system for quicklisp, this would all happen automatically. 08:04:13 mihi_tr [~inisp@62-47-133-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:07:36 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:21 ... I want to stay in emacs with slime ... it is coming form http://www.norvig.com/paip/README.html ... but just a minute ago I got something running form the examples so the first step is done ... thanks for trying to help! bye 08:09:03 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0013.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:11 quicklisp works very well with emacs and slime. 08:09:44 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:10:03 SHODAN [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:10:36 Blkt [5bdae005@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.218.224.5] has joined #lisp 08:11:00 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0013.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:50 ok ... will see ... have now at least already 3 'lisp-type' things: SBCL, cljojure and scheme in Gimp and maybe (forgotton I have quicklisp too, checking now) .. 08:13:09 quicklisp is a common lisp program. 08:13:18 its primary platform is sbcl, even. 08:13:51 still, Norvig's instruction are pretty clear to me. PAIP's code is using its own build system; that's what causes the .bin extensions. 08:13:59 good morning everyone 08:15:26 ahhh, ... yes ... and Norvig *.lisp redefine things in SBCL and I get interruptions in the compilation process ;-( would like to know to prevent them ... but I can live with it , because only curious to common lisp 08:16:36 yes ;-) have quicklisp on my PC ... will see how to use that ... 08:17:34 prsteele: oh all right. I don't have anything against using mechanisms to learn them, even in silly situations, that's my way too :-) 08:18:03 In this situation, using EVAL is of no consequences: you're just playing with toys. 08:18:54 -!- PKHG [~PKHG_afk@ip9135cb37.speed.planet.nl] has left #lisp 08:18:55 ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has joined #lisp 08:21:35 I wouldn't bother unless you'll try and build your own program on top of PAIP's stuff. 08:21:38 roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has joined #lisp 08:22:59 -!- __abbe__ [hexine@2a01:4f8:131:13c1:abbe:fb5d:abbe:fb5d] has quit [Quit: Whenever we are together, its always estatically palpitating!] 08:23:30 A lot of old code tends to break the standard in a few common ways; usually you can just tell SBCL to CONTINUE past the issue... and since the issues actually happen during loading, not compilation, you'll get them even if you avoid recompilation (like PAIP's build system does). 08:27:30 wahjava [pampean@fsf/member/wahjava] has joined #lisp 08:31:32 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:33:16 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 08:36:33 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0285.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:26 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38:32 lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:42:29 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:44:29 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46:05 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0285.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:47:42 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0285.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:37 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0285.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:48:51 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 08:51:12 -!- kilon is now known as kilon_afk 08:51:17 -!- kilon_afk [~kilon@178.59.17.196] has left #lisp 08:55:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:59:08 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 -!- joachifm [~joachifm@ulrik.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:53 -!- lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor_] 09:03:58 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810AAF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:04:49 iocor [~textual@87.194.167.19] has joined #lisp 09:04:54 -!- iocor [~textual@87.194.167.19] has quit [Changing host] 09:04:54 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:06:11 Joreji [~thomas@ht-210.humtec.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:20 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08:24 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-84-39.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:08:57 I'm manipulating lots of fixed sized list, should I be using vector or arrays instead? 09:09:09 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:09:09 (wanting to reduce memory usage) 09:09:39 <|3b|> yeah, vectors could help 09:10:19 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-73-86.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:10:52 no need to (make-array ... :initial-contents (the list))? 09:10:55 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:11:43 tfb [~tfb@92.40.153.113.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:12:10 seems it's doing the same thing, reading what describe has to say 09:12:45 *|3b|* doesn't know what you are doing, so can't really give any specific advice 09:12:52 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:27 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:50 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128043006.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 09:15:28 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:18:07 yeah I'm being vague, sorry about that 09:19:20 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 09:23:05 hi fe[nl]ix 09:24:26 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-141.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:17 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-50-151.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:27:27 -!- mihi_tr [~inisp@62-47-133-224.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: (~~~)] 09:29:03 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:30:16 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 09:30:24 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 09:30:41 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-163-13.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 09:32:55 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:34:43 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-kuijlsimxrotwxwn] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:37:40 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:39:06 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:39:59 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 09:40:05 dim: Or perhaps use structures. That will allow you to type annotate the content 09:40:26 would that help reduce memory consumption? 09:40:50 yes 09:40:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:41:18 intermediates will be stored unboxed in a structure 09:41:39 (if you declare appropriately) 09:41:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:46 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:42:11 <|3b|> specifying types could help with array/vector as well, if all values are the same types, 09:42:13 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 09:42:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:41 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:45:26 asvil` [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has joined #lisp 09:45:59 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:46:31 -!- asvil` [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:41 asvil` [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has joined #lisp 09:47:25 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.153.113.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 09:47:25 PKHG is gone, but he should have been more specific. Anyways, there are in norvig:auxfns.lisp two occurences of #-(or cltl2 clisp) that should be substituted by #-(or common-lisp cltl2 clisp) to have it load silently in ccl. An alternative would be (pushnew :cltl2 *features*) 09:47:38 I published my PAIP patches and loader. Instructions at http://paste.lisp.org/display/130167 09:54:11 some day I will have to sit and read about logical-pathname-translations until I grasp it 09:54:34 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:39 first thing to grasp is: is it solving a problem we still have in 2012? 09:55:29 dim: /home/pjb/my-app/my-file.data vs. C:\Users\Pascal\Application Files\My App\my-file.data 09:56:04 fair enough, ok 09:56:11 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:51 dim: but even if you stay on linux, you can have /opt/my-app/some-file.data vs. /usr/local/apps/my-ap/some-file.data vs /home/some-user/my-app/some-file.data etc. 09:56:55 dim: probably not, or at least, not in the simplest way. The computing environment is incredibly less diverse than it once was. 09:57:18 last I looked logical-pathname-translations seems to be more complex than the problem it's solving, which might just mean I don't understand the problem being solved 09:57:23 So if your code deals a lot with pathnames, it's interesting to use logical pathnames, and defer the mapping to the true directory to the logical pathname translations mechanism. 09:58:07 dim: furthermore, you never know when the Spanish inquisition^W^W creation of a new OS/file-system will occur. 09:58:26 nobody expects the... creation of a new OS 09:58:48 dim: the only thing you could reproach from CL pathnames, is that they don't support URL very well (but have a look at what ABCL does). 09:59:39 Lisp programs using logical pathnames are naturally prepared to deal with URLs as physical pathnames. 10:00:04 Normally, you should not have any physical pathname in your program sources. 10:01:19 tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has joined #lisp 10:01:19 -!- tessier [~treed@216.105.40.125] has quit [Changing host] 10:01:19 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 10:01:32 (defparameter +execute-queries-path+ (asdf:system-relative-pathname :clbench "execute.sql")) 10:01:40 so I shouldn't do things like that? 10:02:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 10:02:19 Some contagion may occur unfortunately. 10:10:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-92.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-110-22.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:04 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-180.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 10:12:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:55 would you better accumulate values in a list then turn that into a string or directly append to a stream? 10:14:09 knowing that you have no other use of the intermediate list 10:14:40 Depend on the size of the string and the overhead of with-output-to-string vs. push/reverse/coerce 10:15:07 I guess that's my question here ;) 10:15:28 dabd [~dabd@static-bl4-245-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 The answer is implementation dependant. 10:15:49 size would be in the range of 100kB to a couple MB 10:16:04 Probably better with-output-to-string. 10:16:16 It is expected it's O(n) amortized. 10:16:37 harish [~harish@116.87.234.108] has joined #lisp 10:16:48 I would call that 10000 times before cleaning the string and doing it again 10:17:06 10 million times in the program 10:17:24 I mean, sorry, 10 million lines, in 10 000 lines buckets 10:17:27 dim: are you paying for CPU time usage? if not, the best you can do is try it out. 10:17:31 arbitrary call, this bucket size 10:17:54 dim: that is much better than asking here, as we always have only incomplete information about your task and problem and environment. 10:17:58 H4ns: I'm preparing the try 10:18:09 just feeling better talking about it with experts first 10:18:18 dim: we're not experts, we're programmers. 10:18:28 you're both 10:18:37 dim: try it. now. don't waste your time. 10:18:42 10 years using the same tech makes you an expert 10:19:04 remember that an expert is someone that did all possible mistakes in a very specialized skill set :) 10:19:18 haha 10:19:25 dim: and be sure to implement both algorithm, and to use one or the other depending on a dynamic benchmark: it could change depending on other factors such as available memory, processor, or of course implementation. 10:19:31 So you need both anyways. 10:19:50 it's a one shot usage 10:20:03 Then why do you care? 10:20:05 I'm not sure I want to stop being lazy enough to do as suggested here 10:20:14 even if I like the idea 10:20:25 pjb: I want to lear by doing, not just do 10:20:36 then fucking DO NOW 10:20:46 in other languages I guess I would just build the string as I go 10:21:00 but CL is still strange in ways for me 10:21:28 hehe 10:21:43 you know I've written a great part of the code already 10:21:44 saage [~saage@189.73.22.184] has joined #lisp 10:21:45 -!- saage [~saage@189.73.22.184] has quit [Changing host] 10:21:45 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 10:22:09 lunch break anyway, I'll about showing my big mistakes and failures this afternoon :) 10:22:41 -!- gko [~user@220.228.255.202] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:23:44 Framedragger [~k@unaffiliated/framedragger] has joined #lisp 10:27:41 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.116.112.221] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:28 dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 10:29:51 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:57 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:56 hi Blkt 10:38:37 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:38:49 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:38:52 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:57 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:38:58 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0316.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:59 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:39:24 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: cyrillebaudouin] 10:39:44 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:36 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 10:42:51 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 10:42:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:48 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 10:45:24 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:14 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.163] has joined #lisp 10:47:31 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 lifeng [~lifeng@bb121-7-108-184.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:50:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:15 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Client Quit] 10:51:53 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 10:53:54 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:16 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 10:56:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:57:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:00:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:06:28 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f702687.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:27 wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-175-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:58 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:11:06 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:11:20 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:12:39 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-178-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:13:31 [SLB] [~slabua@host125-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:13:32 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host125-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:13:32 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:14:20 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-67-159.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:15:04 olafurw [~olafurw@157.157.91.38] has joined #lisp 11:15:51 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0316.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:16:35 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0316.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:52 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0316.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:18:29 -!- olafurw [~olafurw@157.157.91.38] has left #lisp 11:22:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:25:36 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 11:27:49 -!- Framedragger [~k@unaffiliated/framedragger] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:28:26 [SLB] [~slabua@host125-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:28:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host125-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:28:27 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:32:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:33:12 snearch [~snearch@f053010033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:21 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 11:34:53 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-002-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:31 [SLB] [~slabua@host125-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:37:32 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host125-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:37:32 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:39:38 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:33 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:41:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:41:24 i'm looking for a lisp package to help enumerate subsets of a list (considered as a set), preferably without explicitly generating the powerset (it may be too big sometimes) 11:41:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:47 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:59 something like this, for perl: http://search.cpan.org/~fxn/Algorithm-Combinatorics-0.27/Combinatorics.pm 11:42:07 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-133.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:17 alama: you're asking for ~8 lines of code. 11:43:21 -!- Blkt [5bdae005@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.218.224.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:43:25 it may or may not be in alexandria. 11:43:38 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-141.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:43:45 pkhuong: yes, i realize it's probably quite simple 11:44:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:45 pkhuong: ah, yes: MAP-COMBINATIONS in alexandria is what i need 11:44:47 thanks 11:45:01 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:45:25 pnq [~nick@AC839924.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:47:32 Blkt [5bdae005@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.218.224.5] has joined #lisp 11:47:59 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:49:41 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:55:12 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:14 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:59:20 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:15 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:01:26 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:03:05 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-24-103-166-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:45 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kzkixjpceenyogfu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:55 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:12:09 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:14:26 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:03 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:16:19 mzgcz [mzgcz@121.229.224.150] has joined #lisp 12:17:51 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-148-93.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:22 ping fe[nl]ix 12:24:12 pnog 12:25:23 ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@203.51.8.205] has joined #lisp 12:28:44 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@203.51.8.205] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:08 -!- roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:33:08 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 12:33:41 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:35:53 `'hello 12:38:30 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 12:42:17 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-128-247.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:42:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 12:44:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:54 -!- mzgcz [mzgcz@121.229.224.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:45:10 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:45:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:47:33 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:47:52 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:00 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-xqcwodsyacejtcje] has joined #lisp 12:52:01 [SLB] [~slabua@host16-174-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:52:01 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host16-174-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 12:52:01 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:52:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-110-22.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 12:55:02 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:21 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:57:16 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:30 roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has joined #lisp 13:01:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:04:22 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:06:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07:58 -!- roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:30 saage [~saage@189.73.22.184] has joined #lisp 13:09:31 -!- saage [~saage@189.73.22.184] has quit [Changing host] 13:09:31 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 13:09:50 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:38 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-173-66-213-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:03 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-173-66-213-19.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:39 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:14:46 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:21:12 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:22:23 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:23:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Offline] 13:26:32 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:29:25 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@38.117.156.114] has joined #lisp 13:32:43 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:34:17 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:34:21 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:56 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:34:56 -!- Fullmoon_ is now known as Fullmoon 13:36:55 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:40:19 -!- pnq [~nick@AC839924.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:44:15 ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0066.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:16 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.119.163] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 13:45:19 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:57 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 13:53:22 antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 -!- hitecnologys1 [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:54:24 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.241.112.12] has joined #lisp 14:00:27 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 14:00:39 Fullmoon_ [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:14 -!- kliph [~user@24-183-96-81.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:02:15 borkman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:29 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:02:30 -!- Fullmoon_ is now known as Fullmoon 14:02:41 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:26 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:03:35 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:04:05 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 14:06:22 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@eduroam-0066.wlan.uni-bremen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:06:58 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:07:00 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:07:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:07:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:08:39 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:09:12 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:10:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:53 ikki [~ikki@187.193.204.218] has joined #lisp 14:15:03 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:09 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:42 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:03 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:19:31 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:55 -!- asvil` [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:20:33 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:33 -!- dabd [~dabd@static-bl4-245-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:20:51 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:12 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:22:48 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 14:23:59 alama: There's also com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.combination 14:24:07 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 14:24:45 Everybody should have (progn (ql:quickload ;alexandria) (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp)) in their rc files, so you could just use (apropos "COMBINATION") when you want combinations! 14:24:58 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:21 what's in :com.informatigo.common-lisp? 14:27:05 everything! 14:27:14 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/index.html 14:30:02 pjb: do you provide short nicknames for your packages? 14:30:19 does anyone with knowledge about bknr-datastore know this: i have an object which has a 1-N relation to another object, which has a 1-1 relation to a string. can i place an index which finds me the objects given that string? 14:31:32 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.141] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.141] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:33:29 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:01 -!- antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:36:45 dabd [~dabd@static-bl4-245-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:39:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39:35 tungsten_jnbek [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 -!- tungsten_jnbek [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Client Quit] 14:40:21 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:40:28 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7BB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:42 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 14:41:44 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:50 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:16 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:42:48 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:42:56 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:01 kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has joined #lisp 14:44:39 -!- Blkt [5bdae005@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.218.224.5] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:44:49 Jasko [~tjasko@174.59.201.95] has joined #lisp 14:45:07 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:30 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:17 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:25 phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:26 -!- phax [~phax@adsl-68-74-59-158.dsl.ipltin.ameritech.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:48:26 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 14:48:48 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:50:13 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-247-218.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:50:24 -!- pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:50 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:52 -!- kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:08 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 14:51:48 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:54 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:57:01 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:57:23 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:12 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@115.241.112.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:44 nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p5089C76B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:53 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:03:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:49 lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.141] has joined #lisp 15:04:22 kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has joined #lisp 15:04:53 -!- nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p57AD7BB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:05:01 -!- kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:28 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:08:04 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-16-50.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:08:32 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:12:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:02 kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has joined #lisp 15:17:06 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 15:18:15 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:28 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:22:45 |SLB| [~slabua@host15-165-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:23:32 -!- [SLB] is now known as Guest94989 15:23:45 -!- |SLB| is now known as [SLB] 15:23:54 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host15-165-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 15:23:54 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:24:35 -!- dbushenko [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:45 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:26:08 -!- Guest94989 [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:26:25 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 15:27:36 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-24-103-166-106.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27:38 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:27:55 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:14 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 15:33:03 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f702687.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:34:49 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:36:45 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f702687.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-13-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-67-159.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:38:33 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has joined #lisp 15:39:57 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-fykwcrogmsjcagzi] has joined #lisp 15:41:12 I see ABCL has lots of new Java interop toys to play with.. 15:41:55 That was the purpose, wasn't it? 15:42:37 dim: I don't provide short nicknames. Only a final application can know what packages it uses and nicknames in a way that avoids collisions. 15:42:53 dim: I provide com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname however. 15:43:13 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.247] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:33 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:56 billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-82-115.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:56 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-82-115.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:43:56 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:45:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:42 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:48:12 -!- KindOne [KindOne@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:48:29 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:45 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:49:25 pjb: Is that what you do for all your libraries? 15:51:12 Yes. 15:52:26 ZabaQ: for example, the mere fact that I named a package FFI made me lose two hours debugging time, and I made me ashamed on #ccl. If I had named it COM.INFORMATIMAGO.FFI, there would have been no pain. 15:52:42 AeroNotix [~xeno@bcw51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:54:02 ZabaQ: and you should feel at-home, with java namespaces. 15:55:43 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:55:45 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 15:57:34 KindOne [~kindone@colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut] has joined #lisp 15:58:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:59:54 when in the slime debugger, is it possible to get a REPL connected to a thread and inspect things? 16:00:06 here I have an hash table I'd like to inspect 16:01:13 I see slime-eval which is approching, good 16:04:23 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:14 cap [~rork@203.210.9.151] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 kanru` [~kanru@61-228-144-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:38 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:09 pjb: Java is not my home. Perish the thought. I just camp there from time to time.. 16:12:05 pjb: I see. When to use nicknames is still unclear to me, your reasonning makes sense and matches my current usage though (adding my own nicknames in the application itself) 16:13:05 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:28 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:13:42 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:17:39 oh. Database error 42601: syntax error at or near "·". encoding errors in between pg instances with postmodern shipping data around. 16:20:07 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:20:50 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-247-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:43 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-201-138.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:34 -!- borkman` is now known as borkman 16:28:37 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:30:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:13 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:18 ykm [~yash@182.237.186.30] has joined #lisp 16:30:23 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:14 -!- ykm [~yash@182.237.186.30] has quit [Client Quit] 16:35:30 ykm1 [~ykm@182.237.190.54] has joined #lisp 16:36:37 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.114] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:45:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:36 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.156] has joined #lisp 16:45:48 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:51 dim: in sldb, you can type B and then go on with the native debugger in slime-repl. 16:46:20 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A2BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:29 nice 16:46:39 will have to try that, I did manage to debug without that though 16:46:46 careful reading still is useful :) 16:47:18 and the database error was something else, I didn't want to use postmodern:sql-escape blindly and did have to use it more than I would have wanted 16:47:31 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:47:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:16 emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:41 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:50:48 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:49 saage [~saage@189.73.22.184] has joined #lisp 16:50:49 -!- saage [~saage@189.73.22.184] has quit [Changing host] 16:50:49 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 16:57:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:57:59 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:05 saage_ [~saage@189.73.22.184] has joined #lisp 17:00:51 -!- cap [~rork@203.210.9.151] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:01:37 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:43 cwp` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 so what common lisp interpreter/compiler do u recommend? 17:04:30 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:31 cwp`: most people in this channel use sbcl, ccl and clisp are also relatively popular 17:04:57 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:09 free? 17:05:13 of charge 17:05:23 cwp`: all of those 17:06:47 fantazo_ [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f702687.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:08:29 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9063460.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:13:13 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-akynsihjslsuksav] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:13:57 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@104.136.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:14:08 how hard would it be to write an irc client? is there guis available? 17:14:14 gui libs available? 17:14:26 or should i create it as a webapp perhaps? 17:14:41 why not both ?! 17:17:56 cwp`: it depends on how good you are. There are gui libs available. There are webapp frameworks available as well. 17:19:33 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 17:22:53 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:38 dlowe: good at programming, decent at lisp 17:24:59 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:25:23 there's an irc client and a gui, beirc and mcclim. they need a little love but are probably a good place to start. 17:27:34 irc is pretty simple cwp`, so most work will be gui related 17:27:59 someone should clean-out and de-bug mcclim and climacs and beirc! 17:28:07 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:28:17 too much randomness in some parts! 17:28:46 and too many not needed code lines maybe too ? 17:28:56 fewwww! 17:30:34 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:34 I think they are victims of the sad fact that programs do not gain popularity merely because they were written in one language or another 17:30:39 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.155] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.193.40] has joined #lisp 17:31:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:32:01 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:07 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:32:10 dlowe: I tried climacs&beirc and, mostly due to mcclim, found them to be buggy as hell 17:32:50 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:33:26 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-244-241.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:36:11 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 17:40:38 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@104.136.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 17:42:19 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@104.136.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:42:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-163-106.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:36 add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-228-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:45:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:47:50 like I said, it's a sad fact 17:48:31 then I must have misunderstood that sentence of yours 17:49:17 -!- clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:20 fe[nl]ix: I think the point is that nobody fixes these bugs because nobody uses these programs to find the bugs in the first place (: 17:51:20 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@adsl-76-214-13-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:51:42 -!- ykm1 [~ykm@182.237.190.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51:43 because nobody is very motivated to use them 17:52:15 because clim isn't exactly nice :P 17:52:40 because right now, the primary draw of climacs is that it's not written in C and elisp 17:52:50 climacs is almost barren of features, the amount of work it needs to bring it on par with emacslime scares me 17:53:07 climacs is nice in theory because you can extend it in CL, but 17:53:21 yeah, needs too much work 17:53:22 and here's this nice emacs and slime just sitting here 17:53:59 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:09 elisp may be painful but you tend to not have to write it all day 17:55:40 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:06:04 hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has joined #lisp 18:06:12 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:09:01 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:10:54 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 18:15:26 it might be better to have whatever emacs needs to be implemented in common lisp, so we can extend it in common lisp. 18:15:36 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 *madnificent* can imagine his emacs instance using up 1GB+ when using sbcl 18:17:40 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:49 I'd be more excited about an attempt to make the best editor ever in CL 18:18:17 *madnificent* doesn't want to drop all his emacs libraries or customization just yet 18:18:40 madnificent: not even for the best editor ever? 18:19:00 dlowe: so far, that's emacs, no? 18:20:38 more or less, yeah 18:20:42 -!- tashbear [~hucktash@unaffiliated/el-tash/x-7763973] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:29 Racket's editor is written in racket. 18:21:52 FareWell: i don't see how that matters, at all 18:21:56 there used to be editors in ocaml and haskell, dunno how active. 18:21:57 me either 18:22:07 if one of you wants to switch side 18:22:16 um, no. 18:22:20 unless there's something magical about CL 18:22:26 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:22:27 why on earth would i want to switch those bad excuses for modern mediocrity? 18:22:30 as opposed to elisp or another language 18:22:35 My entire point is that people don't switch editors for languages 18:22:40 don't. count on it :-D 18:22:41 elisp has lexical scoping, btw 18:22:42 FareWell: "yes" 18:22:56 madnificent, what is it? 18:22:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@174.59.201.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:11 So any editor project in CL should be about awesome text editing, not "you can extend it in CL" 18:23:20 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 and that goes for any CL project, really 18:23:34 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f702687.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:35 FareWell: macro's, reader macro's, compilermacro-functions, readtables, the meta-object-protocol, ... (feel free to continue yourself) 18:23:36 dlowe: yup 18:23:40 but then emacs is pretty darn good at text editting 18:23:49 It is. It'd be hard to beat. 18:23:51 so you are back square one 18:24:02 But I'd be more excited at an attempt to beat emacs than an attempt to clone it first 18:24:15 madnificent, plenty of languages have them. Including racket, haskell, and probably scala. 18:24:35 Maybe with some crazy new text editing metaphor or interface 18:24:37 FareWell: have what? i know of no language that has all those features aside lisp. but feel free to tell me which one has :) 18:24:44 dunno about a MOP in caml, but it has the rest. 18:25:10 macros, reader macros, readtables, etc. --- all modern languages have that these days. 18:25:21 in one form or another. 18:25:34 hell, even C# has that, these days 18:25:38 madnificent: Racket is basically a kitchen sink language where every idea anyone ever had is cobbled into their standard library, in one form or another (and probably multiple forms, at the same time) 18:25:50 since Racket is being discussed in #lisp, I may as well FUD it. 18:26:10 sykopomp: fair enough, but that's not the case for C# and Java IIRc 18:26:11 FareWell: are macros in Caml not a little separate from the language itself 18:26:20 and somehow people still seem to like it (: 18:26:32 i mean, i'm certain java doesn't have macro's. i've extensively studied that part of it (you have to generate the bytecode) 18:26:38 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 18:26:45 Guthur, depends what you call "separate". But yes, you may have to put definitions in separate files. 18:26:49 people still write assembly. I have no explanation for why anyone else makes insane decisions. 18:27:27 madnificent, I wouldn't call Java modern. But scala has the equivalent of macros. 18:27:31 sykopomp: why wouldn't people write assembly? 18:27:52 FareWell: No true modern language, is it? 18:27:54 or Clojure, also on the JVM. 18:28:07 pkhuong: it never claimed to be. 18:28:28 FareWell: i wouldn't call scala's macro's equivalent. have you tried using it? it's a beast to code in. as in: it doesn't have a syntax i could easily grow accustome to. 18:28:44 FareWell: also, it's dead-slow. doesn't have compilermacro-functions IIRC. 18:29:04 I think the beauty of CL macros is that they feel very much part of the language, your macro code does not feel drastically different. the back quote being the only thing you have to get your head around 18:29:17 I must add though that I have not used Camls macro system 18:29:34 Guthur: you don't even *need* the backquote if you don't want it :) it's just very handy 18:29:36 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:04 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:13 Guthur: even then, there are plenty of other languages like that. Every Lisp dialect; some smalltalk dialects. And the ML or Haskell dialects are not THAT bad to deal with. 18:30:19 pkhuong: maybe they want to write a large system in a relatively short amount of time! 18:30:20 FareWell: do you have any studies to back up your claims, perhaps? because i'm seriously thinking that you're don't really know what you're saying (i'd be glad to be proven wrong, i wouldn't mind being happy coding java). 18:30:28 unless, you know, they just really like assembly or really really have to use it. 18:30:45 madnificent, I conceded that Java itself wasn't up to snuff. 18:30:50 FareWell: because honestly: there's a reason we don't code in LISP 1.5, for instance 18:30:56 FareWell: the same goes for C# 18:31:11 FareWell: I haven't seen readtables there so far either. 18:31:22 and macro's, nothing as well integrated as what lisp macro's are 18:31:43 i mean, i can claim and prove that C has macro's... the same way as excell has macro's... but they're not the same thing 18:31:58 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:32:09 sykopomp: I'd like to see you use a system that isn't built on assembly. I'm sure there's a few around. 18:32:12 just out of context, I'll claim you are using apostrophe's wrong 18:32:22 antifuchs: for macro? 18:32:31 yes (: 18:32:46 antifuchs: thanks, it always confuses me, perhaps this can be a mental note :) 18:32:51 pkhuong: An operating system, you mean? 18:33:07 sykopomp: whole software stack. 18:33:15 madnificent: http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif 18:33:31 pkhuong: is most of that not generated by compilers though, does that count? 18:33:34 dlowe: i know that, but for aphostrophe, it is apostrophe's no? 18:33:41 pkhuong: *manually coded assembly* 18:33:53 dlowe: or is dutch spelling messing with me here 18:33:54 I don't write assembly when I code Lisp. 18:34:05 pkhuong: http://www.menuetos.net/ 18:34:08 sykopomp: same. 18:34:38 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:34:42 madnificent: no. 's is never a plural 18:34:43 dlowe: we're looking for the inverse here ;) 18:35:01 pkhuong: oh. right. ;p 18:35:18 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 18:35:36 dlowe: so, somewhat ironically and not to blame, it should be apostrophes in antifuchs's sentence? 18:35:39 Haskell, OCaml, Scala (which extends Java) and C# (or some close variant thereof), Smalltalk, Python, all have extension libraries that integrate well into their toolchain and provide manipulation of the abstract syntax tree. 18:35:50 sykopomp: "I can't imagine why anyone sane would write assembly, but my computer wouldn't even boot up if it weren't for these insane persons." (: 18:36:14 I guess I was mistaken. I didn't know all the tools I use are hand-coded assembly! Silly me. 18:36:17 FareWell: bullocks 18:36:21 arguably, Racket-style macros are much more advanced than CL-style 18:36:28 OCaml: camlp4 18:36:28 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:36:44 pkhuong: I conceded that there's legitimate places to code it, just like there's legitimate places to code COBOL :) 18:36:53 FareWell: i can't claim for sure, but i doubt they all have something which makes macros integrate as transparently as they do in lisp. then you still miss the other features btw! 18:37:47 -!- hitecnologys [~No_Name@94.137.11.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:06 Haskell: liskell, SyntaxMacros, syntax-trees, preprocessor-tools, etc. 18:38:27 Joreji_ [~thomas@91-074.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:39 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:46 well, it's getting better. ISTR a subset-of-C compiler that was guaranteed to only use registers, allowing it to be used before the memory map is all set up, for instance. Even with that, fundamental fragments would be written in assembly. 18:38:53 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:39:09 pkhuong: Yes, I understand that. Sorry for my hiperbole. 18:39:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:39:26 Smalltalk: OMeta, StSM, and others. 18:39:36 madnificent: he was intentionally messing it up, yes :) 18:39:44 FareWell: so write a paper about how they compare. i'd be eager to read it and be happy to be proven wrong. but spitting out the names only isn't going to convince me. 18:39:59 dlowe: ah. :) thanks! 18:40:02 Scheme: syntax-rules, syntax-case, syntax/parse 18:40:12 FareWell: farewell 18:40:15 and unlike CL, racket gets evaluation time right 18:40:34 (see my rant about eval-when) 18:40:37 FareWell: please stop writing sentences and start writing your paper 18:40:52 madnificent, you're arguing out of ignorance 18:40:59 write a paper that says what? 18:41:11 "CL isn't special, neener neener" 18:41:18 "yes, these languages let you write macros"? Duh. 18:41:47 sykopomp: if it were, it would be violating naming conventions 18:42:17 FareWell: no, out of interest. please write a paper that compares the features i mentioned with those in other mainstream languages. you seem to know it so well, it shouldn't take you long and i'm sure many will be interested in reading about it. be sure to write it in a constructive manner. right now it feels more like trolling (you've asked other questions IIRC, so i honestly doubt you are trolling). 18:42:41 nice one, antifuchs. 18:42:50 ^.^ 18:43:28 madnificent, I wouldn't call most of them mainstream, except perhaps C# 18:44:10 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/bb397951.aspx 18:44:15 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 -!- dabd [~dabd@static-bl4-245-43.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:03 though - even not being mainstream, they might have more users than CL. 18:45:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:00 FareWell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarly_paper#Scholarly_paper 18:46:10 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:46:26 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 18:46:31 FareWell: also, translate something simple like with-open-file to C# and see if it is as transparent as its lisp counterpart. it would be interesting :) 18:46:58 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:22 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@104.136.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-192.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:48:28 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@91-074.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:48:38 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:48:43 I'm not that interested in C#, personally. 18:49:09 but yes, doing it with Scheme's syntax-rules is trivial, for instance. 18:49:13 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:30 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 18:49:52 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:49:57 and you don't have to use gensym. 18:50:09 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 18:50:14 Joreji_ [~thomas@77-050.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:54 FareWell: fwiw, expression trees allow you to read and write expressions. they don't allow you to create completely new syntactic constructs afaik. so they don't allow you to write WithOpenFile( "C:\\Path\To\File" , ifExists="supersede" ) { /* code be here */ } 18:50:57 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 FareWell: also, if you don't know. then why do you say it is the case? 18:52:43 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:49 if they don't have macro's then i'd really be surprised if they'd have read tables... 18:52:55 but again, i may be wrong 18:53:09 madnificent, you can certainly extend the language. LINQ is implemented that way, for instance. 18:53:21 FareWell: linq generates code for you, not new expressions 18:53:34 what do you mean "new expressions"???? 18:53:37 FareWell: similar to how you have to use annotations in java, which are then parsed 18:53:48 FareWell: like the WithOpenFile example i wrote earlier 18:54:28 you can build expressions and execute them with expression trees. It's heavyweight, but oh well. 18:54:40 FareWell: yes, but you can't write something like: 18:55:12 {somestatement {(foo=bar){ var bang="balooga"; } return 1000;}{ true; }} 18:55:21 i have no idea what it would mean, but in lisp i could attach meaning to that 18:55:22 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:32 because that's what integrating in a language is about 18:55:42 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:55:43 apparently, the C# designers have promised to make metaprogramming a focus for C#5 18:55:46 generating code isn't that unique, no. 18:55:57 FareWell: yes, but it's not here now 18:55:57 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:36 the basics are there, just heavyweight to use. You could develop your own easier macro-defining macros on top. Or use one of many .NET languages that have that. 18:56:46 FareWell: so, until then: write your paper and come back when you're finished doing that. i think it's safe for me to assume that you don't know what you're talking about. 18:56:47 have a nice day 18:57:05 'turing complete' keeps springing to mind 18:57:17 the point isn't that C# is better than CL for metaprogramming (it isn't - yet), but that even C# allows for macros, and that plenty of languages do it just as well as CL. 18:57:22 and some - even better. 18:57:36 FareWell: yes! 18:57:38 you are right 18:57:41 i see the light now! 18:57:47 *FareWell* shrugs 18:57:47 come join me in the C sharp channel 18:57:49 quickly! 18:58:06 madnificent: hehe 18:58:07 I have other papers to write. 18:58:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:58:25 To tell things that aren't common knowledge yet. 18:59:08 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-249-109-215.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:30 But - if it's really macros that attract you to CL and nothing else, you're fooling yourself with the wrong language. Many scheme dialects (once again, Racket for instance) already have much more advanced macro features. 18:59:56 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@104.136.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:00:20 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: pa ap] 19:01:22 prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-247-254-72.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:33 - 19:05:49 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 19:06:10 -!- prince_jammys [~mischa@pool-71-247-254-72.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08:10 FareWell: I don't think people pick languages based on whether or not they have reader macros or x feature xU. Languages are nice when they are well designed and productive. Arguing about features is silly unless that feature is "it's nicer to write a correct program in this language". 19:08:31 oconnore, agreed. 19:08:37 -!- benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:09:16 FareWell: so why are you spending your time like this? 19:09:19 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:09:25 madnificent argued that there was something magical about CL, and that it was its macros. 19:09:46 Well, it's not that magical anymore -- and we should be glad that other languages are catching up, at long last 19:10:10 and we shouldn't be too proud when some languages have taken macros further than CL. 19:11:01 FareWell: sorry, i just have to bite. you have no clue what a compilermacro-function or the read table is, do you? 19:11:10 I'm not a fan of hygienic macros, so I don't consider that to be a big win. 19:11:12 if so, a simple yes suffices 19:11:16 yeah i hate to feed the troll but i don't see Racket's macros doing anything CL's done 19:11:17 you don't need a readtable to extend syntax. 19:11:19 "don't" 19:11:44 with define-compiler-macro, readtables, and defmacro, you can make CL read anything and spit out anything 19:11:58 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 19:12:01 and compiler macros - well, they don't work that well in CL, and various languages allow you to do similar things. 19:12:07 what 19:13:03 (not to mention symbol-macros and the block forms) 19:13:30 For instance, in Racket, you can do the equivalent with symbols that have macro rewrite rules when used in (HEAD ...) position and expand to a function when used in (... DATA ...) position 19:13:37 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@77-050.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:13:39 FareWell: again, that is an argument about features. I think it is nicer to write macros in CL than in C# or Python, for example, even though both of those languages technically allow programmatic modification of the AST. Unless you can make the case that writing pre-compilation AST modifications is nicer in some other language than CL, then madnificent's point about CL macros being cool is still totally valid. 19:14:20 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-73-86.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:14:35 oGMo: i think FareWell is mixing up what you can express in a language and how you can express it. so i'm /guessing/ (i don't know all the languages good enough) that he's trying to say that you can somewhat do in other languages in the future, what you can do in common lisp now. but i'm not at all sure. 19:14:39 oGMo: I wrote a reader-interception library in CL to *actually* allow to replace the entire CL reader, so yes, I know what you can do with readtables. 19:14:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:14:52 oGMo: that doesn't mean you can't do as well in other languages. 19:14:54 is Racket a "Lisp" 19:15:12 FareWell: you can, but you have made a number of assertions about "better" that are unqualified 19:15:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 and that define-compiler-macro "[doesn't] work very well" 19:15:54 oconnore, I won't dispute you in CL vs C# or Python regarding macros. I don't know enough about the latest Haskell or Caml macro systems to swear that CL is still on top. And it certainly isn't on top vs Racket. 19:16:41 FareWell: there was a debate somewhere, I think c.l.l about racket vs CL macros 19:16:43 even Clojure has better standard support for macros than CL. 19:16:51 again with the unqualified assertions 19:16:55 thus, troll 19:17:01 FareWell: you mean clozure 19:17:11 is Clojure a "Lisp"? 19:17:16 the conclusion of one was that racket was good for the simple macros, but when things got complicated it started to fight you 19:17:46 probably one of the only useful debates I have seen on c.l.l 19:18:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:18:38 Alan Bawden has really interesting views on that subject. 19:18:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@ht-210.humtec.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:02 Guthur: it appears at a glance that racket defines idioms for macros, which is immediately more constraining 19:19:30 clojure has a scoping mechanism for gensyms that, without being as automated as full hygiene, makes it nicer than manual gensyms in CL 19:19:56 again, forces an idiom, therefore more constraining 19:20:11 also Clojure has symbol-macros :P 19:20:14 essentially a subset of defmacro 19:20:23 oGMo: so according to you C# expression trees would be even better because they provide little in terms of idiom??? 19:20:43 FareWell: no, they aren't macros... so they're something *completely different* 19:20:49 I am assuming Racket fits in the context of this thread https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/QTtxhzHxFHE 19:21:03 check Blake McBrides asserts on the macro system 19:21:09 near the bottom 19:21:25 FareWell: utterly different 19:21:26 or rather 2/3 down 19:21:34 Some rockstar lisp hacker should write a Ruby interpreter in Racket! 19:22:03 are there rockstar racket hackers? 19:22:03 mon_key: why not lisp? (not trolling) 19:22:12 asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has joined #lisp 19:22:23 mon_key: on a relate note, I seen a brainfuck interpreter in Haskell today, and it was darn ugly 19:22:24 madnificent: because Lisp is a dead language (only half-serious) 19:22:24 mon_key: with lisp being CL 19:22:29 there's already m2ym's ruby-parser in CL 19:22:37 *Guthur* doesn't think he could stomach Haskell 19:22:44 oGMo: if you keep saying 'racket', maybe a certain someone will suddenly pop in as he usually does. 19:22:46 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-180.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:04 sykopomp: possibly but i don't know this someone, or associate him with such noise :) 19:23:18 unless it's that one recurring guy 19:23:21 there is indeed a lot of noise in #lisp right now. 19:23:22 mon_key: i don't fully agree that it's dead. it's being underused. :) any other arguments, or was it just fun? :) 19:23:23 oGMo: Yes. but as it provides CL style debugging/introspection it prob. doesn't qualify as a bonafide Ruby! 19:24:17 mon_key: i think if it passes the tests no one will really argue, though if it doesn't support C extensions it may be slightly limited 19:24:18 madnificent: mostly fun: I watched the recent Berlin Lisp meetup video last night 19:24:27 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:24:43 but nice for scripting, i guess .. and probably way faster than MRI 19:24:48 mon_key: seen it too. it was fun to watch. 19:24:58 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:07 madnificent: Watching it made me very sad. 19:25:16 why? 19:26:00 classic worse is better. 19:26:11 you could try to support C extensions with FFI :D 19:27:09 dlowe: that may be pretty reasonable actually assuming the extension doesn't do anything particularly evil 19:27:35 (i.e. assume MRI internals) 19:28:29 i dunno, i think it's neat to see CL being the lingua franca instead of C 19:29:01 heh. CL - the next JVM? 19:29:20 madnificent: Mostly what i learned was that Lispers suck at Rockstar style evangelizing. 19:29:42 mon_key: that seems fixable 19:29:43 if half the effort that went into optimizing the JVM had gone into CL compilation, the world would be a different place 19:30:08 dlowe: yeah! almost everything normal people use would be way slower 19:30:08 dlowe: mythical man month ;) 19:30:08 madnificent: CL definetly needs a rockstar. 19:30:36 all the JVM optimization effort has resulted in doing it wrong, harder 19:30:51 mon_key: you don't need 'one' rockstar. and i think our's is probably Xach :) 19:32:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.137.254] has joined #lisp 19:33:09 An underground hit, to be sure. 19:33:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:33:22 madnificent: Xach is too correct and conservative. I'm thinking more along the lines of a Rich Hickey - e.g. one who projects generalizable platitudes as easily recitable hipster dogma. 19:33:31 Of course, Matz wasn't a rockstar until Rails came out 19:33:33 after seeing what happened to the ruby community after rails, pfft 19:33:47 and yes, it blew up the ruby community 19:34:01 so maybe CL's relative unpopularity isn't so bad 19:34:02 lisp is hard. you don't want to use it. :) 19:34:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:34:11 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:15 dlowe: oGMo: that seems to be the current consensus among Lispers - "Lisp is our secret sauce lets keep it that way" 19:36:08 -!- dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 19:36:11 on the other hand, it sure would be nice to have a lot of libraries :/ 19:36:15 or maybe "CL is no good if we pretend it's good but try and prevent others from seeing how bad it is, it'll make us look better." 19:36:17 skim off the cream 19:36:25 dlowe: get cracking then 19:36:31 no good{comma} ... 19:36:33 oGMo: we could make it easier. i mean, rubyists don't understand ruby when they start writing things in it. they just don't write too much wrong at the very beginning. 19:36:35 I've done my part. What library have you written? 19:36:38 I want 3 libs by the end of the week 19:36:48 i always assumed web applications would be what could make lisp bigger 19:36:54 dlowe: dunno, a lot of hard problems are solved, and easy ones are easy, so 19:37:13 dlowe: I didn't say I wanted more libs (bad excuse for not having written any) 19:37:45 madnificent: oh, my point was more "nothing to see here, move along" than "hey isn't this cool" ;) 19:37:47 The library thing is a strawman post Quicklisp 19:38:08 I'm maintaining the following libraries: asdf asdf-bundle asdf-contrib asdf-dependency-grovel asdf-encodings cl-launch command-line-arguments exscribe fare-csv fare-matcher fare-memoization fare-mop fare-utils inferior-shell lambda-reader lisp-interface-library meta package-renaming philip-jose poiu ptc quux-iolib quux-time reader-interception rpm scribble single-threaded-ccl slime tthsum wordgames workout-timer xcvb 19:38:10 I can't think of any I could reasonably produce 19:38:28 dim [~dim@prometheus.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 FareWell: you're the asdf maintainer? << what's your full name? 19:38:43 FareWell: The nick threw me ;) 19:38:46 FareWell: really? slime? 19:38:46 there's actually too many libraries in some parts of CL land. 19:38:56 there was a new JSON library a week ago. 19:39:02 François-René Rideau  ng-V Bân    Faré 19:39:09 ok, not slime 19:39:12 it was a fork 19:39:22 sykopomp: mine is best! yes 19:39:37 dt63_ [~dt@203.39.205.3] has joined #lisp 19:39:42 sykopomp: that's why i wrote sexml btw. not that it helped the least bit, but at least that was the general idea. 19:39:43 I only wrote local-time. A dubious achievement at best. 19:39:44 forgot to remove it from the list of directories 19:40:21 -!- dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:40:32 -!- dt63_ is now known as dt63 19:40:55 there's at least 3 couchdb libraries, 3 different relational database libraries, 2 different sets of opengl bindings, 2-3 html-as-sexp libraries, 2-3 css-as-sexp libraries, several open source web servers, at least two of them event-based 19:41:05 I guess there's only one http client anyone actually ever uses. 19:41:05 I'd add cl-containers, but I just got the commit bit, and haven't used it yet 19:41:36 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:41:44 oh, there's like 4 different pattern matching libs, several prototype-based object systems floating around... 19:41:50 sykopomp: i wrote two html-as-sexp... so it must be 4-50 or so 19:41:52 *sykopomp* is trying to think of more duplication. 19:42:04 sykopomp: gtk bindings 19:42:05 somewhere between 4 and 50, yes. 19:42:05 sykopomp, apart from sheeple, what are other prototype-based object systems? 19:42:08 FareWell: i'm astonished by the way you argue 19:42:18 I think dto has one, too, actually 19:42:19 FareWell: dto has a prototype system in block 19:42:20 FareWell: clon is another one 19:42:36 which prototype system is most advanced? 19:42:36 FareWell: clon (or whatever it's called now), and kr 19:42:37 one can argue that parenscript has one as well. 19:43:02 FareWell: depends how you measure advanced. Sheeple tries to be like CLOS, with multiple dispatch and a MOP, and kr has a constraint system. 19:43:21 I wanted to experiment with a prototype system to make xcvb easier to extend. 19:43:24 which I guess means there's 3 differrent FRP-ish object system libraries (cells, formulate, and kr) 19:43:38 FareWell: tl;dr: You may as well use CLOS. 19:43:40 at least imo. 19:43:42 I should look at kr 19:44:04 sykopomp: Also don't forget all the pre asdf systems from the AI/CMU archives 19:44:05 I'm using CLOS right now. It's a bit heavy weight for some things I do. 19:44:39 sykopomp: but that sort of 'diversity' is not really unique to CL 19:45:12 Guthur: my point is that there's a lot of libraries, but they might benefit from more... agreement/directiono. 19:45:24 it's usually easier to start a new lib that commit to completing the last '20%' of some existing lib 19:45:31 *sykopomp* is guilty of several instances of that duplication. Blames the fact that most existing libs aren't good enough. 19:45:31 Guthur: it is coupled with the diversity of CL implementations where only some subset of each library will run on a given implementation 19:45:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:16 or a given implementation running on a given OS 19:46:19 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:19 sykopomp: yep, did you take your implementations to completion? 19:46:29 -!- prsteele [~user@dhcp-128-253-211-249.res-wired.cornell.edu] has left #lisp 19:46:46 -!- tsuru```` is now known as tsuru` 19:47:21 mon_key: all the ones I was thinking about are relatively portable. 19:47:26 Guthur: sometimes. 19:47:37 again reminded of that guy who done some regex engine for scheme, talking about people not producing complete designs and implementations 19:47:38 Oh I forgot. There's a *bunch* of concurrency-related Lisp libraries. 19:47:41 sykopomp, in the days of git and quicklisp, it's not that hard to do a friendly or hostile take over of a library and make it good. 19:47:57 my colleagues and I have made several friendly take overs. 19:48:00 http://www.scsh.net/docu/post/sre.html 19:48:05 that guy ^^^ 19:48:06 2-3 channel librariess, several ones for futures, and I think we're at 3-4 actor systems. 19:48:15 much better than starting yet another bad library. 19:48:40 FareWell: the ones I've started from scratch have all been either because i wanted to learn how to do it, or because the library was so far from what I considered the 'right' design that I may as well start over. 19:48:56 sykopomp, where is kr? 19:49:02 FareWell: patching existing libraries often means you get to argue with its current maintainer about design issues. 19:49:16 FareWell: good question. I think rpg is the maintainer? 19:49:17 sykopomp, it's not always bad to start from scratch - you gave good reasons to 19:49:32 robert goldman? oh, nice 19:49:49 FareWell: for example, I wanted to learn more about Erlang and have a library to do Erlang-style actors for concurrency. 19:49:59 The scsh author is a hoot 19:50:04 sykopomp: It ain't me, babe. 19:50:11 FareWell: Not a single one that existed seemed to get the signaling system or generic servers/supervisors right. 19:50:14 So what would be the qualities of an ideal CL rockstar. Maybe the CL community could collectively hack together a reasonable rockstar in the manner of a Cthun-bot :) 19:50:19 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128043006.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:48 rpg: weren't you maintaining something related to it, then? Sorry for the mistake. 19:51:18 sykopomp: Concurrency library? Nope. 19:51:33 As in, "Our Rockstar is so hardcore he/she/it doesn't even exist -- suckers!" 19:51:35 rpg: no, kr. 19:51:46 sykopomp, did you write one that did things right? 19:51:48 sykopomp: Oh, the library inside Garnet? 19:51:57 SrPx [b185811b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.133.129.27] has joined #lisp 19:52:00 rpg: Aha, Garnet! That's why. 19:52:01 I'm still waiting for one - with many things on my plate before I start writing mine. 19:52:01 What is the channel for cl 19:52:23 FareWell: I wrote one that helped me learn more about what Erlang thinks the right thing is, and I've been trying to get the details right. 19:52:29 hasn't dto's CLON changed name? 19:52:38 sykopomp, where is it? 19:52:42 FareWell: I think CLON doesn't even exist as its own thing anymore. 19:52:51 FareWell: http://github.com/sykopomp/memento-mori 19:53:35 SrPx: this is it. If you're new to CL, you might want to consider #clnoobs 19:53:50 FareWell: you can plug in any pattern matcher you want into its selective receiver, btw :) 19:54:12 Including fare-matcher? :-) 19:54:14 dlowe: so #lisp = cl and #scheme = scheme ? whats the channel for lisp then 19:54:37 SrPx: #lisp is the channel for lisp 19:54:39 FareWell: ideally. IF you have trouble plugging it in, I"d like to know, so I can fix the issue. 19:54:44 SrPx: No one has programmed in LISP 1.5 in a very long time 19:54:47 sykopomp, what do you use for concurrency? 19:54:58 sykopomp, what do you use? 19:55:01 SrPx: common lisp is the only true lisp, you don't need anything else. (there is no channel i know of which covers all lisp variants). 19:55:02 SrPx: Lisp = CL 19:55:16 FareWell: https://github.com/sykopomp/memento-mori/blob/develop/doc/memento-mori.md#function-selective-receive-test-key-timeout-on-timeout Here's an example about how to plug in a pattern matcher. 19:55:35 fare-matcher was always more of a proof of concept than a productized library. Unless Lisp compilers are better than I think they are, it produces slow code. 19:55:49 FareWell: It uses threads. I felt like that was the best choice, in CL. You don't have isolation or immutability enforcement, but I feel those are best left to the programmer. 19:55:54 mon_key: so when someone says he's programming in lisp I can be sure its not scheme but cl? o.o 19:56:11 sykopomp, how do you solve PCLSRing when killing threads? 19:56:21 SrPx: who knows - but you should not worry about it. 19:56:23 FareWell: I've been thinking about implementing an Akka clone, to actually be able to hit millions of actors. 19:56:31 FareWell: PCLSRing? 19:56:35 you grab each and every imaginable lock, in some "right" order? 19:56:54 SrPx: you should view lisp as a language family, not as a specific language 19:57:04 sykopomp, as in, not catching a process with its pants down. 19:57:16 FareWell: I don't know what PCLSRing is. :) 19:57:19 SrPx: if you then ask "What kind of lisp?" the other person will be very impressed. 19:57:27 not killing a thread while it's holding some important lock or in the middle of modifying an important shared datastructure 19:57:44 SrPx: case is important generally "lisp" is any dialect of the lisp family whereas "Lisp" is the dialect of lisp known as Common Lisp 19:57:50 FareWell: you use a lock-free protocol. 19:57:51 or otherwise leaving some stuff unusable by other threads. 19:58:02 hmm 19:58:33 FareWell: The internal locks are protected by without-interrupts. Any other shared memory access is outside the scope of this. 19:58:34 pkhuong, that's fine - it just means all your threads have to be written in some unspecified and unenforced subset of CL that avoids some constructs. 19:59:10 sykopomp, so locks are verbotten outside without-interrupts? 19:59:16 "Don't modify mutable data structures that you've messaged to other actors" 19:59:32 FareWell: that it does. But then again, even with domain specific languages will fail to capture some semantic properties. 19:59:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:39 I'm not against that. Except I feel queasy about the "unenforced" part. 19:59:54 If you need without-interrupts, it's your job to add it. 20:00:02 sure, sure. 20:01:09 (until you use a library that does it in your back) 20:01:24 FareWell: thats gross. 20:01:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:02 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-201-138.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:04:16 -!- wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-175-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:04:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.193.204.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:04:53 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-175-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:30 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:10:57 Hi there! I'm looking for "a good" CL webserver for a small project. 20:11:52 I'd like to create a "HTTP redirection webservice": The server provides 301, 302, 307, etc. redirections 20:12:02 based on the host and URL of the original query. 20:12:17 lemoinem: look at hunchentoot, it can do that easily and is well-tested 20:13:14 It will be used for a aggregation of websites with several thousands of requests per day. 20:13:15 lemoinem: i join H4ns with hunchentoot. it seems to be the most commonly used and it tends to do the job. 20:13:22 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:13:25 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-175-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:28 lemoinem: per day or per minute? 20:13:48 per picosecond! 20:13:58 homie: no, we can't do that yet :P 20:14:03 lol 20:14:09 :) 20:14:50 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-175-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:55 lol, day mostly. 20:15:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:15:18 It's only redirections, most of the traffic will be sent to another server with the real traffic afterward. 20:15:35 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 20:15:40 lemoinem: i haven't benchmarked hunchentoot, but i'd be surprised if it wouldn't handle that. it shouldn't be too hard to swap servers to something very fast if you take it into account from the start. but for as much as i know right now hunchentoot is the nicest to work with :) 20:15:49 lemoinem: if you serve your data from ram, serving a few hundred requests per second is no problem. 20:16:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:16:08 I indded heard about hunchentoot a few years ago and was wondering if it was still the best choice. 20:16:36 -!- Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.231] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:12 H4ans: I don't expect the data to occupy so much space that it won't fit in RAM... 20:17:16 Natch [~Natch@178.73.212.231] has joined #lisp 20:17:43 lemoinem: so you're fine. 20:17:51 -!- nachtwandler_ [~nachtwand@p5089C76B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:18:08 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:18:12 H4ns: now that your attention is on #lisp. does bknr.indices have something for 1-N relations? I have objects which link to other objects in a 1-N fashion, i actually want to index to have as key the property of the object at the N-end and as key the object of the 1-end of the ralition. 20:18:25 Great! Thanks all for the advice! 20:18:32 -!- FareWell [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:04 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:20:19 madnificent: i don't think so - indices are meant to be used to locate objects from the "outside". once you have an object, use traversal. 20:20:48 madnificent: i may not get the question really, but it's late. maybe ask me again tomorrow. 20:22:06 H4ns: will do. i think i have to write a custom index (which seems well-supported) 20:22:09 goodnight 20:23:54 rbarraud [~rbarraud@125-239-196-121.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 Fare: if you know you have a resource that you absolutely must return, you trap exits. 20:25:57 because not even unwind-protect will protect you from an exit signal. 20:26:07 ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has joined #lisp 20:26:15 and trapping exits won't protect you from brutal kills... 20:26:53 -!- ZabaQ [~jconnors@85.207.11.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:03 v0|d [~user@85.110.123.53] has joined #lisp 20:27:09 Then again, if you use CCL, any libraries that do unwind-protect will be exit-protected. The downside being that you can end up with unkillable threads. 20:27:17 !seen fxr 20:28:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:28:34 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.156] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:28:38 -!- saage_ [~saage@189.73.22.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:30:46 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:32:13 trapping -- you mean inside the thread to be killed, or a monitor thereof? 20:32:29 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:32:53 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:58 some time, I ought to just stop everything else and write my pclsr-lisp 20:34:34 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 20:36:53 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:37:47 Fare: actors can trap exits, meaning exit signals will turn into regular messages in the actor's mailbox. 20:37:49 pclsr? 20:38:16 Otherwise, doing (exit 'foo actor) will interrupt the actor thread and cause it to shut down. 20:38:40 on SBCL, this means any forms (in libraries, for example) that are not wrapped in without-interrupts will fail to execute. 20:39:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:39:17 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:45 on CCL, all unwind-protect cleanup forms are already safe, though, so the regular Lisp expectation that unwind-protect cleanups will run is intact. 20:39:58 At the cost of potentially having an unkillable actor. 20:41:23 dim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCLSRing apparently :) 20:41:55 conclusion: don't interrupt-thread if you care about integrity. 20:43:47 or rather: make sure you trap exits if your actor is doing something important, and don't kill them if you care about integrity. :) 20:44:10 (and don't use thread-interrupt on stuff that doesn't belong to you, damnit) 20:44:24 in lisp ITS. mm. 20:47:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:51:44 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:51:56 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:09 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:54:44 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:56:13 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f702687.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 20:58:13 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.193.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:58:25 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@rrcs-72-43-236-2.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:23 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-xqcwodsyacejtcje] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:59 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:29 sykopomp: Did you *want* me to pop in? 21:05:02 -!- ksergio [~sgarcia@mail.ageophysics.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:05:12 eli: I was genuinely worried that you hadn't :) 21:05:49 sykopomp: Seems like nothing was really specific to racket, Fare just listed a number of languages... 21:06:41 Practically the only question I'd ask is which "more constraining idoms" oGMo sees in racket. But that's not worth a fight. 21:07:16 Guthur: (BTW, that Blake post is completely off wrt macros.) 21:08:58 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:09:53 eli: module language stuff. it's interesting but i'm not sure you couldn't implement it in CL on top of regular macros/reader/etc 21:10:55 oGMo: The module language is unrelated to macros and it is certainly not a restriction of macros in any way... 21:11:40 oGMo: As for implementing a racket-like macro system, it's a superset of the problem of implementing a hygienic one (with all that is implied), but racket adds a bunch of stuff that would mean that it's impractical to implement in CL. 21:11:45 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.34.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:11:58 (As in the phase separation, which Fare rants about often.) 21:12:11 (As in, he rants about the lack of that in CL.) 21:12:26 eh .. hygienic macros are automatically uninteresting 21:13:48 oGMo: That's the usual FUD-ish point of view (which usually identifies it with the idiotic `syntax-rules' restriction). Hygienic macros are actually more expressive than symbolic ones. 21:14:39 if you say so 21:15:29 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-228-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:16:59 oGMo: to see that, you can see the tiny implementation of `defmacro' in racket, and the way Costanza implemented hygienic macros in CL. Those two should make the point. 21:17:33 eli: the point is, hygienic macros are a subset of nonhygienic macros, and therefore uninteresting 21:18:04 subset or superset? 21:18:10 subset 21:18:14 you can write one in the other 21:18:23 one can implement hygienic macros with nonhygienic macros, but not the other way around 21:18:27 that doesn't make either uninteresting 21:18:39 yes, you can implement defmacro in syntax-case 21:19:20 http://docs.racket-lang.org/mzlib/mzlib_defmacro.html 21:20:32 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 21:21:52 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:23:22 oGMo: where is the hygienic macro implementation for common lisp? 21:24:22 I'm tempted to write one, on top of reader-interception, some day. 21:24:44 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:49 not very high on the TODO list, though 21:24:57 pkhuong: no idea, eli referenced it not i 21:25:31 no, p-cos made a proof-of-concept demonstration, but not a full-fledged implementation 21:26:03 and it required shadowing a good deal of CL. 21:26:17 that seems iffy 21:26:59 plus if you can actually generate nonhygienic code from "hygienic", i question your definition :p 21:27:43 then again, having such a library play nice with third-party libraries might be interesting. 21:27:48 I wouldn't mind using a CL-in-CL to implement IOlib 21:27:50 oGMo: it's a question of defaults. 21:28:15 fe[nl]ix: people who have to debug the output might. 21:28:18 pkhuong: what is? 21:28:28 one where defmacro is actually hygienic, but the integration with the compiler and debugging tools still has to be done 21:28:37 to me the question really doesn't matter because the problem doesn't exist 21:28:42 pkhuong: you got there first :) 21:28:48 [SLB] [~slabua@host164-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:28:49 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host164-69-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 21:28:49 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:29:22 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 21:29:37 oGMo: many hygienic systems have an escape hatch that let you write capturing code if you want. The difference is that, if you don't, the output is implicitly hygienic. 21:29:56 -!- cwp` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 21:29:57 oGMo: you haven't tried very hard. 21:30:00 pkhuong: oh, you mean hygienic generating nonhygienic. but if you change it, you're no longer hygienic. it doesn't really matter if it's explicit or not :p 21:30:21 pkhuong: actually, I'd be quite interested in doing it, since I'd like my CL-in-CL to have a non-interning reader which means hacking cl:compile-file and cl:compile 21:30:28 oGMo: Yes, what you're saying is the exact common confusion I mentioned. You're lumping together a hygienic macro system with hygienic macros, but a hygienic macro system allows you to write unhygienic macros. 21:30:47 I might even add another defmacro while doing that 21:31:10 eli: then you're just redefining the term to include both, so, sure. define away =P 21:31:14 The thing is that you just cannot implement hygienic macros with `defmacro', not without the kind of language redefinition that Costanza did. 21:31:16 oGMo: of course it does matter: only the bits that exploit capture have to be annotated. 21:31:18 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:37 fe[nl]ix, no thanks to reader-interception you don't need to hack them 21:31:51 oGMo: hygiene never meant being able to write only hygienic macros. 21:31:51 fe[nl]ix, you can do everything at the level of the reader 21:32:03 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:17 Fare: no, a non-interning reader requires the compiler to do the interning 21:32:46 I wasn't referring to the hygienic macros 21:32:54 fe[nl]ix, oh, you mean, as in phase-separation between compiler and run-time? 21:32:56 oGMo: It's you who's redefining it to that subset, and you're likely to also consider only macros that are written with `syntax-rules', which, like I said, is a horrible thing to do, and one of the main mistakes of pre-r6r6 scheme. 21:33:00 you might want to compile in a fork 21:33:12 eli: *shrug* 21:33:17 doesn't matter, don't care 21:33:25 oGMo: then stop talking 21:33:29 then don't speak 21:33:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:33:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:32 Fare: no, that separation is a bit more than what I need 21:34:37 *Fare* turns to Haskell (maybe Scala)? for inspiration regarding generic datastructure libraries, since Racket doesn't look like it will have it. 21:34:57 fe[nl]ix, what more does it have? 21:34:58 Fare: D's pretty nice, I hear. 21:35:07 D, as in the C++ variant? 21:35:15 Fare: yup. 21:35:29 Croms [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:35:59 Fare: If you're looking for things like a MOP and method combinations, then swindle is it on the racket side, and you won't find anything like that in haskell and most likely in scala too. 21:36:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:37:30 *sykopomp* is still hoping fexprs work out in the future as the One True Answer to hygiene and awesome 'macrology'. 21:38:00 eli: even w/o method combinations, I'd like to see something that takes advantage of generic functions / type classes to present a uniform interface to a variety of datastructures 21:38:06 CL-style sexp manipulation + lexical hygiene + optional escape hatch + statically compilable = delicious. 21:38:56 I'm trying to write a library of such datastructures, and I'd like to see what happens in other languages. 21:39:38 gf's look like the "natural" way to do it in CL (possibly using interface-passing style for parametric polymorphism and more) 21:39:44 -!- Croms [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:59 sykopomp: Probably the only serious attempt in that corner is that kernel language, which is pretty much an academic toy; the problems with real fexprs are just too severe for real work... 21:40:00 Croms [~Croms@dhcp-089-098-010-207.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:40:29 Fare: We do that in that dict interface and a bunch of other places. 21:40:31 sykopomp, fexpr and statically compilable sound a bit antinomic 21:40:43 eli: other places: URL? 21:40:47 Fare: (We should really take that to #racket though) 21:40:57 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:41:01 is the dict interface for both read-only and mutable dicts? 21:41:11 yes, send URL in #racket 21:41:34 Fare: pay as you FEXPRs; if you stick to defmacro-style transformations, there's no runtime overhead, and if you don't it only has local effects on the weakness of analyses. 21:41:51 Fare: Shutt's fexprs are designed in such a way that you *should* be able to essentially macroexpand them in any situation where you're using them like we use macros. 21:41:58 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:23 it's still tricky to actually get that partial evaluation working in such a way that this actually happens, and you need to track objects and the like. I don't remember all the details. 21:42:26 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 eli: I am not familiar with scheme macros, though no one seemed to strongly disagree with what Blake asserted 21:42:56 Ralith was giving it a good try and managed to do quite a bit towards doing that in a kernel-like language. 21:43:44 they're very exciting and I wish I were smart enough to solve the compilation issues. :) 21:43:53 pkhuong: The problem is if you allow redefinition of macros, and in that case you can never completely pre-compile code. 21:44:08 For myself I don't see much benefit in learning Scheme. I have the unsubstantiated opinion of one or the other between CL and Scheme 21:44:14 eli: you can; you just have to be ready to recompile it. 21:44:36 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:45:21 Guthur, and Blake is a world-class specialist in macros? 21:45:32 Guthur: with a title like "Scheme vs Common Lisp" on c.l.l you shouldn't expect much. I can guarantee you that what he says is wrong. 21:45:46 Fare: I'm not sure what you mean by "it" 21:46:05 Fare: don't shoot the messenger, I never expressed a strong opinion either way 21:46:11 eli: ITYM "considering it's a posting on c.l.l." :) 21:46:25 fe[nl]ix, what would you be missing if compilation happened in a fork? 21:47:01 pkhuong: Recompilation is a small aspect of the problem -- the much more important problem is the sanity of knowing what some piece of code is doing, without that, you're in "hopefully the code will behave nicely" world, which is exactly how dynamic-scope-by-default died. 21:47:11 I've I was to express such an opinion then it's CL for me, if for no other reason than that is the language I chose to learn and use 21:47:21 I've/IF 21:47:30 sykopomp: A posting on c.l.l was one part, but the bad subject sealed it. 21:47:32 (assuming a way is found to fork despite any threads) 21:47:35 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-190.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:54 sykopomp: FWIW, the guy posted that after he asked that same question on stackoverflow. 21:48:24 this posting is already deep in the negatives, and I haven't even read it. 21:48:35 And the nice thing about SO is that it tends to be self-sane-ifying place: his question was closed and deleted a few minutes after he posted it... 21:48:49 eli: this is #lisp; we redefine functions all the time. Just avoid insane codebases. 21:48:57 Fare: why would I compile in a fork ? apart from the fact that the SBCL GC doesn't like consing in a fork 21:49:09 (I don't know if he intended to troll or if he's one of the rare innocent people who asked a real question.) 21:49:19 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:49:26 pkhuong: Yes, I'm well aware of that, which is exactly why I mentioned it. 21:49:30 fe[nl]ix, to avoid interning - you seem to have something against interning. 21:50:24 pkhuong: The thing is that if I write some code like (let ((x 1)) (foo x) (bar x)) in CL, and I know that `foo' is not a macro, then I now know that `bar' will be called with 1 as an argument. 21:50:55 If, however, you can redefine `foo' later as a macro, and we're in some super-dynamic world where that means that my code gets recompiled, then my assumption is now wrong. 21:50:56 eli: you still don't know whether BAR will pull a pjb or not. 21:51:16 Define "pulling a pjb"--? 21:51:21 rm -rf / 21:51:39 That shouldn't change the semantics of my code, now. 21:51:48 Fare: I still don't see the point 21:52:09 eli: you prefer to use Scheme over CL? 21:52:36 eli: we don't share the same view of the meaning of meaning, I suppose. 21:52:39 Guthur: know your interlocutor before speaking 21:52:46 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@104.136.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:53:24 foo is redefined as a macro - that redefines bar. 21:53:26 eli: fwiw, I could define an arbitrary compiler-macro on BAR. The only thing stopping me is sanity. 21:53:31 Guthur: Loaded question. If by "Scheme" you mean the standard language known as Scheme, then I'll surprise fe[nl]ix by saying that I'll very strongly prefer CL over it. 21:53:42 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91.119.137.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:18 eli: you don't surprise me :) 21:54:27 I really had no prejudice in this question bar what you have said in this convo 21:54:33 fe[nl]ix: Would perl surprise you? 21:54:34 prsteele [~user@dhcp-128-253-211-249.res-wired.cornell.edu] has joined #lisp 21:54:57 Nobody expects the Perlish inquisition. 21:55:03 you prefer perl to CL? 21:55:03 I had suspected you would prefer Scheme but then wonder why you were contributing so much in #lisp 21:55:06 hahahahaha 21:55:10 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:13 sykopomp: good one 21:55:27 pkhuong: What I'm referring to is certainly applicable to CL, BTW. Invalidating that assumption with a very dynamic environment is something that CL prohibits, otherwise you can't refer to expanded code. (Since you need to re-expand things on such redefinitions.) 21:55:49 can anyone tell me how to access a package by string name? e.g., I (load x), where x is "foo", and now I want to do (foo:bar) 21:55:56 eli: and re-expansion may or may not happen. 21:56:08 eli: no. some lispers like perl. I find it nauseating 21:56:15 Guthur: I'm a racket developer, with a long history of CL and Scheme... 21:56:19 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:56:23 prsteele: (funcall (find-symbol "BAR" "FOO")) ? 21:56:40 fare: looks good to me 21:57:02 prsteele: xcvb-driver has some helpers for you 21:57:11 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@d149031.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:57:12 fe[nl]ix: Nauseating or not, it's better than that whole "small gem-like language" that "Scheme" is trying to be... Obviously, I'd prefer CL over perl... So it's Racket > CL > Perl > "Scheme". 21:57:18 s/>/>>/g 21:57:28 eli: ah, makes sense then, and indeed you probably have better insight into scheme macros than Blake, and certainly more than myself 21:57:39 eli: the restriction is on code not to depend on it. However, developers can't depend on re-expansion not happening either, unless they are certain the code has been compiled. 21:57:55 pkhuong: By may or may not happen you get the sane world; and I think that post-compilation you should be able to rely on it not happenning. 21:58:47 pkhuong: Yes, exactly -- you're required to not depend on it, which effectively excludes it from the tools that you can use to write proper code. 21:59:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-170-236.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:07 That's why I (and many others) think that it's a sane choice to have macros but not fexprs. 21:59:12 Oh yes, if you stick to sane codebases, the code is sane. Amazing. 21:59:34 seems logically sound alright 21:59:48 The same tautology applies to fexprs. 22:00:12 pkhuong: What I meant was that if some behavior is said in the spec to have undefined results, then it falls outside of the semantics of the language, which means that you get no guarantees whatsoever. 22:00:53 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:02 yes. So you certainly can't depend on the behaviour having defined results to aid in the understanding of your code... unless you impose a coding style that avoids such undefined behaviours. 22:01:04 btw, 22:01:14 pkhuong: If you were to code in some imaginary kernel implementation that allowed you to redefine macros at runtime, then the resulting language implementation is something that people have rejected as "sane". 22:01:24 -!- kliph [~user@144.92.35.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:01:36 Boston Lisp Meeting next week, Thursday 28th, with Kalman Reti making a talk and a demo of the Symbolics Lisp Machine. 22:01:48 at MIT Stata Center Star Room. 22:02:03 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 22:02:04 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 22:02:04 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 22:02:07 Fare: I wanted to ask about that -- is he bringing in a LM? 22:03:09 I'd love to meet people who reject implementations because they're too sane. Still, I don't see that kernel's way of doing things is necessarily unusable, or that every stylised subset that stricitly includes defmacro would necessarily be, either. 22:05:26 pkhuong: An implementation is something that would really help, but last I checked there was nothing close to one. As for sanity -- I'm mostly talking about the ability to determine what some piece of code does based on the lexical structure of it -- which is how a truly dynamically-scoped language loses since you don't get that kind of sanity. 22:06:37 Fare: See my question above -- if he does, then you should definitely mention it in the post since it's probably going to get many more people moving. 22:07:00 (As in moving towards that room next week.) 22:07:09 eli: the same objection applies (and actually were) to late binding. 22:07:48 eli: he's bringing a LM emulator 22:08:09 visar [~visar@77.29.48.54] has joined #lisp 22:08:33 Dynamic dispatch is insane: I can't tell what code will actually be called at runtime. It might even be different targets depending on the context! 22:08:49 -!- visar [~visar@77.29.48.54] has left #lisp 22:09:06 pkhuong: If it's the OOP one you're talking about, then there has been a lot of work on that, and it *is* still a relatively big issue. 22:09:22 that said, I have a MacIvory in France, and it's doable for one person to carry it - though some cart might be appropriate. 22:10:09 eli: it doesn't seem to me that the main issues are with code correctness, more with performance 22:10:11 eli: it's insace, and yet it's arguably helping millions of developers to get things done. 22:10:18 *insane even. 22:10:19 pkhuong: But wrt the kind of sanity I'm talking about things are a bit better since you *know* where you place the hooks that others can modify dynamically. To put this differently, there's no problem with the concept of a dynamically scoped value -- the problem is in making that the default for all bindings. 22:10:59 Fare: Still worth mentioning, I'm sure that there's enough people who (like me) tried those emulators and gave up since it took too much time to figure out how to do stuff. 22:11:02 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.113.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:11:02 eli: maybe. Or maybe that's not a problem when one works with people whose IQ is above room temperature. 22:11:12 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:30 :) 22:12:06 pkhuong: Note also the many tools that the OOP world uses to get more guarantees -- private members/methods, friends, final, etc etc. 22:12:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:12:35 pkhuong: on the Kelvin scale ? 22:12:37 But in general I think that OOP as *the* fundamental thing in CS is going down in favor of functional programming. 22:12:40 What is this encapsulation you talk about? I just slot-value and :: it up. 22:12:46 (I might be overly optimistic though.) 22:13:03 eli: one more reason to have someone come and demo the good stuff so you don't have to learn how to get to it. 22:13:32 eli: both concepts can be used in one world (though not purely), which seems to yield good results. 22:14:15 fe[nl]ix: the only true scale, the one that's based on the temperature of brine and of a random human body. 22:14:38 pkhuong: ah, so you mean above 115 ? 22:14:45 everyone knows that scale 22:15:15 pkhuong: not random human body - the armpit of scale's creator wife 22:15:42 p_l: really ? 22:15:47 fe[nl]ix: yes 22:15:53 Fare: Right -- which is why I'm saying that you should mention it. 22:15:53 madnificent: purity is a concept for academia, in the engineering world stuff just needs to get done, imo 22:16:22 in a timely and cost effective manner, with reasonable quality constraints 22:16:23 these days it is defined, afaik, in terms of Celsius. Just like pound, feet etc. are defined using SI units ;) 22:16:25 Guthur: i agree. and i think i'd have gotten away with not writing that in just about any channel but lisp :) 22:16:52 madnificent: Yes, I know, like I said, I'm a racket developer. 22:17:10 (We have both FP and OO, like many other practical environments.) 22:17:53 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@38.117.156.114] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 22:20:29 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:48 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-247-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:26:40 chu_ [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:26:49 ikki [~ikki@187.193.204.218] has joined #lisp 22:28:19 cwp` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 22:28:28 is hunchentoot available for windows? 22:28:28 -!- chu_ is now known as chu 22:28:53 if i use (load-time-value ...) inside a defun, i.e. this expression is not evaluated during load, but only when I invoke the function defun'ed 22:29:14 -!- cwp` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:30 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:29:39 shoudl *load-truename* be available for load-time-value in this case? 22:29:54 (defun func() (load-time-value *load-truename*)) 22:30:09 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:20 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:34:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:36:40 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@bcw51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 22:38:47 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:40:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:41:41 madnificent: If you're still here - I was working on bknr.indices with 1-N relations yesterday - If i understand your query to H4NS correctly most likely what your looking for is :index-type hash-list-index 22:41:43 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:41:56 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 mon_key: i just built the relation in the other way, but hash-list-index builds an index for a list of elements? 22:42:33 (with each of the elements in the list being a key) 22:43:27 for each elt of a list the object associated with that list is added to a list of objects which share a relation with the same elt. 22:44:25 mon_key: and can i add the equivalent of what :key is in #'find to that relation? 22:44:57 and thanks 22:45:16 you can map over a list of relations or a single relation 22:45:51 no, that's not really what i want. but i can build it on top of what you just said 22:46:15 madnificent: keep me posted if you develop new indexing frameworks 22:46:20 tango` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 mon_key: will do 22:46:54 i've hacked a few halfbaked ones i'm toodling with now 22:46:58 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:28 hash-list-index isn't available in quicklisp's bknr.indices yet, so i'll go with the model i have now, i think... 22:47:51 i was wrong, it is in there 22:47:57 slime didn't complete it right (what the?) 22:47:58 yeah 22:48:08 Spawning child process : invalid argument //when i try to run inferior lisp (sbcl) , i put (setq inferior-lisp-program "C:/Program Files (x86)/Steel Bank Common Lisp/1.0.55/sbcl.exe") ; your Lisp system // in .emacs 22:50:02 why? 22:50:17 -!- chu [~chu@CPE-58-169-13-80.lns2.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:50:17 chu [~chu@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 tango`: i don't know. however shouldn't that be \\ instead of / ? 22:51:16 inferior lis-buffer? 22:51:16 on windows 22:51:28 inferior-lisp-program 22:51:37 / works as well, no prob for slime. \ doesnt work however' 22:52:03 tango`: \ is an escape character, perhaps \\ does. don't know what the error is, don't know much about windows, sorry. 22:52:31 would one rather have a webapp irc client than a gui these days? 22:53:13 *madnificent* has his in emacs 22:53:26 tango too but tango no want 22:53:32 madnificent: so you want indexes where the key into the index is of the form (foo bar baz) (i.e. some non-atomic thing) and the object indexed (the value) is a subclass of indexed-class ? 22:55:42 -!- tango` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:04 such that: (bknr.indices:index-get '(foo bar baz)) => # 22:56:20 mon_key: wait, this getting confusing. i have a class A and a class B. A maps to B 1-M. I want a function which takes the value of slot s of B and uses that as a key to find the instance of class A which belongs to that. 22:56:55 so, no. not exactly what you said 22:57:18 but it's rather easy to hack around 22:57:34 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:34 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:57:34 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 22:58:46 mon_key: literally: a user has multiple profiles, identified by an id (string). i want to find the user for that given id. 22:59:06 and in hindsight, it mightn't be that pretty to do it in a single key 22:59:15 sorry, in a single index 22:59:26 because i might want more of those for a given slot... 22:59:49 the id-string identifies multiple profiles or each profile is identified by an id-string ? 23:00:13 tango` [~user@109.58.231.229.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:19 so it works 23:00:41 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#install 23:00:58 theres no version thast packages everything? 23:01:34 DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@1.153.97.160] has joined #lisp 23:01:55 mon_key: a profile has multiple id-strings. but an id-string has only one profile 23:02:18 tango`: use quicklisp for (almost) all your library needsb 23:02:23 s/b// 23:03:31 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 23:04:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@199.180.99.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:04:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:04:38 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.70] has joined #lisp 23:05:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:05:22 use quicklisp for (almost) all your lirary needsb 23:07:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9063460.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:10 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9063460.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:09:04 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9063460.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:17 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:22 (defun square (x) (* x x)) 23:09:25 wrong? 23:09:39 variable squar eis unbound when 23:09:45 (mapcar square '(1 2 3)) 23:09:52 but (square 10) works 23:10:22 tango`: (mapcar #'square ) 23:10:29 tango`: CL is a lisp-2. 23:10:48 (which you might want to read up on) 23:11:31 so, variables are different from functions? :) (function square) is the function! 23:11:49 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:13:27 ok 23:13:30 (defmacro sq (X) 23:13:30 '(* ,X ,X)) 23:13:30 23:13:30 (sq 7) 23:13:33 23:13:36 undefined function 23:13:50 tango`: is that in a file? 23:14:07 anyone have a good example of a macro use in lisp? i mean i know in C but it is just string substitution, not code generation 23:14:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:21 p_l just and then i use slime-eval defun 23:14:53 tango`: use backquote, not usual quote 23:14:59 wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-42.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:00 tango`: also, you probably want ` rather than '. 23:15:06 `(* not '( 23:15:30 tango`: also, at this point, you probably should stay away from macros 23:15:41 tango`: if you evaluate the defmacro form in the REPL it will be available right away 23:16:53 doesnt a defmacro mean (sq 10) will be (* 10 10) ? 23:17:02 instead i get undefined function 23:18:13 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-175-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:18:57 CL-USER> (defmacro sq (x) `(* ,x ,x)) 23:18:57 SQ 23:18:57 CL-USER> (sq 4) 23:18:58 16 23:19:16 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:22:53 how do i make a string? 23:23:09 There are string literals in CL. 23:23:16 As the most basic way. 23:23:30 But then, you have (make-string ) 23:23:58 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-180.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 23:24:27 And a number of other functions that will return strings one way or another. 23:25:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:41 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLink@1.153.97.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:30:59 (make-string "hewllo") fails 23:32:04 tango`: the first arg is char count 23:32:23 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:33:15 C-c C-d d will give you the documentation of the function at point 23:33:47 or alternatively C-c C-d h will go to the hyperspec 23:34:01 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:15 tango`: also, http://l1sp.org/cl/make-string 23:34:20 check the documentation can avoid those issues 23:34:32 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:36 (there are other l1sp.org functionalities you might want to check out, too) 23:34:42 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-76-172-30-205.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:39 (make-array 5 :element-type 'character :initial-contents (loop repeat 5 collect #\a)) <--- that is a string! :) 23:36:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:16 is "string" allowed? 23:36:23 *drewc* has not been on #lisp in a while so is amusing himself 23:36:24 i want to gen htl for example 23:36:51 (defun or defmacro title (name) (name)) how to do that? 23:36:55 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:38:06 tango`: exactly what documentation are you reading? 23:38:15 (defun title (name) (format nil "~a" name)) 23:38:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:51 tango`: have a look at gigamonkey's Practical Common Lisp  it's available online for reading. 23:39:39 tango`: there's cl-interpol for other string interpolation possibilities. 23:39:57 *antoszka* off with dog 23:43:05 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:17 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-214-13.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:50:01 -!- wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-165-42.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:26 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:50:36 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp