00:00:00 dto, ur just jealous 00:00:02 dto: do you want me to mail them next week about their misspelling so you don't look like you're only protecting your own work? 00:00:03 haha 00:00:17 dto: :) next they will be saying that the next step in natural language is visual design lol 00:00:25 no im just probably going to have to change the name 00:00:43 dto: i thought it was blocky too :( 00:00:43 dto: no /they/ will have to change the name 00:00:48 dto, i suggest "bloquee" 00:01:01 *jasox* bloki 00:01:05 dto: there is no reason why a side-project of a googler is worth more than your project. seriously, it's not something huge, you have just as much right to it as they do. 00:01:29 i JUST renewed the domain name too 00:01:46 IPmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-84-210-68.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:59 dto: and hey, if you can bitch about not wanting to give up the name, lisp will get some attention once again ;) 00:02:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129833 <- probably won't help but just in case 00:02:04 nothing to lose 00:02:08 madnificent: haha. 00:02:53 maxm-: ... there's an alien callback in that backtrace. 00:02:58 soon you will just be able to tell your computer what to do. 00:03:25 dto: like siri? 00:03:28 pkhuong: of course the code path is stump -> qt-repl->emit-signal (cross-thread), qt gui thread -> stress test -> call into C++ -> callback -> call into lisp to draw stuff 00:03:36 "siri, install MIT Scratch" 00:03:37 FAIL 00:04:21 I reproduced it without gui-repl too, so the initial cross-thread thing does not matter (I don't know how qt does cross-thread calls, I think its safely enough through posting event and then waiting for answer) 00:04:36 maxm-: and in that mess your first reaction is to look at the underlying implementation? Anyway, callbacks have never worked from foreign threads. 00:04:45 Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:04 Psyclonic [~psyclone@67-5-156-87.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:10 its not foreign thread, its started with (bt:make-thread), and then it runs Qt event loop 00:05:19 the message that lands you in ldb, with the line number and all is also useful. 00:05:59 Well, it's a slightly novel text editor. 00:06:32 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:33 annotated 00:07:02 does (sb:without-gcing) do anything? coz I'll try inside that next 00:07:12 on .51 sbcl it did not matter 00:07:36 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:08:37 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 00:08:39 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:44 pkhuong: Basing interruptibility on whitelisting rather than blacklisting seems saner to me 00:09:53 interesting inside without-gcing has same error, same line number 00:11:25 -!- IPmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-84-210-68.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:12:03 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-220-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:33 Hm. OTOH, the whitelisting should probably be part of the API (like InterruptException in Java is a checked exception); otherwise an allow-interrupts could be lingering anywhere and you'd need whole-program knowledge - in which case you don't have to bother and can just make it implicit *anywhere* 00:13:38 maxm-: are you sure? That error looks a lot like either foreign code scribbling over our metadata, or a bad callback. 00:14:11 -!- zhulikas [Derp@3e6b1d4c.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:14:14 tcr: who'll bother to whitelist? I prefer to reserve interrupts for exceptional situations and not care too much about handling them right. 00:14:23 pkhuong: I guess I could be screwing something up from my code, will try to nail it down.. But I test my c++ side very extensively (huge test suite), running under valgrind without any problems 00:14:35 wish there was a way to valgrind sbcl+ffi 00:14:46 pkhuong: In Lisp's interactive development methodology? 00:15:06 tcr: for interactive development, I can glue the piece back together manually. 00:15:31 but strangely enough I seen these things even doing normal loading before my code even touched anything.. just compiling stuff 00:15:39 not ldb, but memory corruption 00:15:41 not if interrupting the wrong thread at the wrong time might lead to deadlock or inconsistent state 00:16:52 anyway I'll get to the bottom of this, as of now I'm around 60/40 sure its not my code 00:16:54 maxm-: loading code may also execute non-trivial stuff. 00:17:32 tcr: use tools that make such situations impossible, like lock-free algorithms. 00:17:34 pkhuong: its definitely related to nesting.. Data points.. Happens much faster and every time under HEAD then under 1.0.51.. 00:17:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:17:57 I have no clue what nesting refers to. 00:18:04 pkhuong: data point 2, error doing compiling everything was "nested error (with basically forever stack trace (error printing farme)) 00:18:55 that doesn't tell you what the original error was, but bogus objects caused by heap corruption would be one way to cause that. 00:20:09 data point 3, my code that triggers it is probably around 3 levels deep into ffi->lisp->ffi->lisp.. Ie its me calling c++ to inject new tick, which updates market data, which calls lisp callback, which wants to redraw window, which calls qt, which calls drawBackground, which is overriden virtual function from lisp, which calls CommonQt callback, which calls (defmethod draw-background), which calls into qt to actually draw background 00:20:29 lol 00:20:38 -!- irpanech6 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:20:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:22:11 seems to be related to gc-alloc-with-region 00:22:37 anyway, I'll get to the bottom of it 00:23:31 is compiling SBCL runtime with -O1 or O0 -g supported? 00:23:41 so I can screw around from gdb? 00:24:40 [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:24:40 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 00:24:40 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 00:32:13 pkhuong: 2nd annotation up, it seems the page table values kind of make sense 00:32:21 ie does not look like garbage to me 00:38:09 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:20 madnificent: im not really going to worry about it. Google cancels and/or renames most of the projects they release 00:39:32 besides. they can just redirect Blocky to Blockly and make me disappear 00:39:49 or they can rename it to Visual Dart 00:39:55 , sorry , OT 00:39:58 -> lisplab 00:41:35 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:41 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:42:20 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:42:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.132.133.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:42:49 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:49 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 00:45:36 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-87.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:49 ok,actually free_pointer in the region does not make sense to me, why its so huge comparing to start_addr/end_addr 00:48:07 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:48:28 yup free_address looks hosed 00:48:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:52:04 pkhuong: aha 00:52:08 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 clintm [~clintm@c-24-16-170-86.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:52 pkhuong: look at 3rd paste, *thread->os_thread value is somehow same as bogus region->free_pointer 00:53:56 too much to be coincidence 00:54:16 *maxm-* has a feeling this could be the default packing order change in newer gcc 00:54:21 I hit the same thing in my lib 00:55:40 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 00:55:44 anyway I'll finish this tomorrow.. but so far I think its sbcl, not me 00:55:45 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:55:59 -!- kanru` [~user@61-228-144-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:58:20 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:20 ikki [~ikki@201.132.133.94] has joined #lisp 01:05:27 kani [~kenjin@2002:a398:5444::a398:5444] has joined #lisp 01:07:15 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:40 abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 01:09:55 penyu [~penyu@203.78.123.136] has joined #lisp 01:10:03 -!- penyu [~penyu@203.78.123.136] has left #lisp 01:10:25 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:14:00 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:19:43 fe[nl]ix: why the version.lisp-expr hack? 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02:28:33 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-159-97.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:30:24 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 02:34:36 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Quit: bbs] 02:35:58 timor101 [~icke@port-92-195-13-130.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:37:16 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:39:55 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:40:08 -!- timor [~icke@port-92-195-28-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:41:39 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:43:37 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:44:29 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.65.132] has joined #lisp 02:44:40 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 02:48:04 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:51:15 Guest62668 [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has joined #lisp 02:51:46 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.65.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:57:13 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:58:24 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:01:32 teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has joined #lisp 03:05:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.23] has joined #lisp 03:05:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.59.23] has quit [Changing host] 03:05:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:06:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:50 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:14:12 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:15:38 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 03:18:16 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:54 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:32:24 shergill [~shergill@gateway/tor-sasl/shergill] has joined #lisp 03:32:57 silence indeed. 03:33:48 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:58 wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has joined #lisp 03:35:04 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-185-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: "GAY HARD CREW IN THE HOUSE (MAYBE NOT ANYMORE)"] 03:35:10 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20321.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:36:47 -!- shergill [~shergill@gateway/tor-sasl/shergill] has left #lisp 03:38:17 -!- wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:13 wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has joined #lisp 03:39:28 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:40:08 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:49:12 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@102.124.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:56:32 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:56:42 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:57:00 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:43 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:32 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 04:05:34 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:18 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:06:24 -!- wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:45 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:08:07 wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has joined #lisp 04:11:56 Not really, I've been listening to music 04:13:08 jcazevedo_ [~jcazevedo@188.250.180.160] has joined #lisp 04:13:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:15:09 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-92-114.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:15:09 -!- jcazevedo_ is now known as jcazevedo 04:16:17 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 04:18:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 04:22:04 anyone familiar with expert systems? what's the difference between KM and LISA? 04:30:25 pnq [~nick@AC810152.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:02 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:36:10 huangjs: what? 04:36:30 what are those? 04:36:40 LISA implements the RETE algorithm. I don't know about KM. 04:36:40 04:38:58 -!- JPeterso2 [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!] 04:39:30 is it http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~mfkb/km/ ? 04:43:35 Personnally, I see no possible confusion between io.blocky and com.google.blocky 04:43:39 But that's just me ;-) 04:44:12 pjb: google blockly? 04:44:28 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:18 Google are cunts when it comes to taking over names, just look at go and go! 04:45:28 Yes. 04:45:34 and yes. 04:46:08 language 04:46:16 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 adu: yes 04:49:09 pjb: RETE or RETE2? so basically no back-chaining 04:51:14 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:51:24 -!- wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:51:33 *sykopomp* wonders if anyone's happened to write a stream wrapper that can ensure ordered output even when multiple threads are trying to, say, write-string/format/print to it. 04:52:43 *sykopomp* wonders if it's even possible to do portably. 04:52:52 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:38 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:05:08 cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 05:05:57 I would try to use lparallel.queue, which seems to do the trick in my use of it so far 05:06:43 I've implemented a "monitor" thread that's caring for all the logging io (format'ing out messages on the console, nothing fancier than that) in some multi-threaded programs I made recently 05:07:11 the worker threads are pushing info in the shared queue, the monitoring thread is pulling from that 05:07:14 works well 05:07:26 sykopomp: have you factored in relativity into your definition of simultaneity? ;-) 05:07:30 I can implement parallel queues easily enough. I was just wondering if someone had bothered to build a stream or stream wrapper that did it already so I could (let ((*standard-output* (concurrent-wrap *standard-output*))) (format t "Hello!")) 05:07:34 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.130.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:56 I even use that scheme in a benchmarking application where the main worker job lasts for about 3.5ms in average, so I would say lparallel.queue performs more than well enough for the job 05:08:44 sykopomp: I'm trying to say that I think we have tools on which to base such an implementation, that I obviously don't know of, having written a specialized form of it already 05:08:58 (well in my case I also maintain some running sums and avg, etc) 05:09:19 I'm not -entirely- sure it's possible. 05:09:32 I know nothing about the streams API :) 05:10:03 streams already print things as they receive them, no? 05:10:31 wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has joined #lisp 05:10:44 yes, but two threads writing to a stream will us bjte unrebleda 05:10:58 a 05:11:30 I'll just cook something up with gray-streams and see how it goes, I guess. :) 05:11:38 asvil [~asvil@178.121.7.36] has joined #lisp 05:13:26 i thought the "unreliability" comes from receiving data in unreliable orderings, which is hardly the stream's fault? 05:14:25 I think I'm happy enough if write-sequence/write-string calls are atomic. 05:16:04 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:16 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 05:18:21 chx [~chx@drupal.org/user/9446/view] has joined #lisp 05:18:26 -!- chx [~chx@drupal.org/user/9446/view] has left #lisp 05:19:09 another approach is to create an aggregator using zeromq, which can work inter-process and inter-machine too. 05:20:48 -!- scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:28 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:33 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.139.189] has joined #lisp 05:22:22 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:36 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 05:26:43 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has joined #lisp 05:28:08 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 05:30:12 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-smpihtmwunghyvpm] has joined #lisp 05:32:17 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:47 fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-16-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:35:59 dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has joined #lisp 05:37:19 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:39:27 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698430.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:43:40 lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:44:08 -!- lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 05:47:50 bieber_ [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has joined #lisp 05:47:57 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 05:48:08 bieber___ [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has joined #lisp 05:48:23 -!- bieber__ [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:48:23 -!- bieber [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:53 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 05:52:53 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-125-99.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:54:34 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:54:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:57:07 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:58:49 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:00:13 -!- Guest62668 [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:00:49 kani [~kenjin@2002:a398:5444::a398:5444] has joined #lisp 06:00:54 Guest62668 [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has joined #lisp 06:01:49 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:04:46 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:10:09 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:10:45 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 06:11:42 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.7.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:47 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:08 -!- bru` [~bruno`@ras75-3-82-226-220-53.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:09 -!- kani [~kenjin@2002:a398:5444::a398:5444] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:47 kani [kenjin@2002:a398:5444::a398:5444] has joined #lisp 06:18:41 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:54 harish [~harish@119.234.134.178] has joined #lisp 06:20:43 The Internet Is Too Big To Fail 06:21:31 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.88.219] has joined #lisp 06:22:39 arnuld [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 06:25:12 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:29:02 Somebody computed how much energy the Internet uses. 06:29:34 Otherwise we could switch to solar panel powered wifi repeatitors, but you'd need to include the replacement cost. 06:29:35 bru` [~bruno`@ras75-3-82-226-220-53.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:30 Perhaps once 3D printers are suficiently performing to replicate solar panels and router, we could setup a sustainable Internet, that would keep working even if we go back as cavemen. 06:31:12 dto: case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe 06:31:25 Post-industrialization will require more than that, but it may be that rapid prototyping will allow a shift toward cottage industry. 06:32:44 pjb: awesome. yeah i totally wanna be ready 06:34:08 There are a lot of past civilization that have uterly failed. And we really know only what happened AFTER the last ice age. It's possible dinosaures evolved to have a civilization as advanced if not more than ours. 06:35:31 madness 06:36:56 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128101218.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:37:14 -!- bru` [~bruno`@ras75-3-82-226-220-53.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:38:56 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:39:38 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:40:51 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:41:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.88.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:44:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-87.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:50:06 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:50:32 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:50:52 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:51:09 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 06:52:33 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:22 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-16-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:23 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:04:24 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:06:07 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:08:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:11:33 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:49 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:14:00 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-48-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:00 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-48-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:14:00 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:14:23 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:15:43 -!- kani [kenjin@2002:a398:5444::a398:5444] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:16:11 nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has joined #lisp 07:16:19 anyone see this? not lisp related but still pretty cool... http://people.csail.mit.edu/mrub/vidmag/ 07:17:04 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 07:17:36 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:17 If not lisp related, better on #lispcafe 07:22:39 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:45 pocket [83716dd4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.113.109.212] has joined #lisp 07:24:34 -!- dt63 [~dt@203.39.205.3] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120420145725]] 07:25:30 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dzsncsyywfijifbe] has joined #lisp 07:30:03 -!- pnq [~nick@AC810152.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:14 wztian_ [~quassel@li379-10.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:49 -!- wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:34:13 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-157-175.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-141-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:54 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 07:42:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:46:49 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:47:42 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:48:15 sykopomp: not possible without modifying format. 07:48:25 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 07:50:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:51:49 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:52:33 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 07:52:50 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:50 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:52:50 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 07:53:02 wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has joined #lisp 07:53:29 -!- wztian_ [~quassel@li379-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:53:51 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:53 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:14 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.146.198.135] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:58:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:00:09 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:00:47 limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:59 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:03 is there a builtin way to clip an integer to a certain range? 08:08:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-186.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:09:46 robot-beethoven: no. 08:10:21 robot-beethoven: (min (max ... )) 08:11:25 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 08:11:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.223] has joined #lisp 08:11:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.223] has quit [Changing host] 08:11:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:12:44 -!- Guest62668 [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:12:57 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:11 -!- arborist [~arborist@f050023233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:16:19 arborist [~arborist@e182019028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:26 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:40 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:19:04 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:19:51 -!- wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:23:20 Guest62668 [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has joined #lisp 08:25:47 zhodge [~zach@ip72-199-133-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:29 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has joined #lisp 08:30:56 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has left #lisp 08:31:19 robot-beethoven: I'd write a macro because (min (max ...)) looks like two operations where there's actually one. 08:31:26 *function 08:35:10 (defun min-max (min x max) (min max (max min x))) 08:35:20 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 08:35:22 it's a funny function. 08:36:55 <|3b|> alexandria:clamp ? 08:37:16 clip would be a better name. 08:37:23 arnuld [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has joined #lisp 08:39:06 asvil [~asvil@178.121.7.36] has joined #lisp 08:39:24 Hi all. Is there XKeyboard extension for clx? 08:42:50 -!- Guest62668 [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:43:54 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:15 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:38 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:31 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:49:30 asvil: no, though I don't think it's too hard to implement 08:50:24 benny [~benny@i577A7DB8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:30 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:52 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.180.160] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:50:55 slyrus_: where ? 08:54:12 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.241.61] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:03 -!- pocket [83716dd4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.113.109.212] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:16:00 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:56 Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-93-80.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:56 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-93-80.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:16:56 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 09:17:26 -!- zhodge [~zach@ip72-199-133-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: zhodge] 09:18:18 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:20:21 Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:24 -!- certainty [~david@matrix.d-coded.de] has quit [Quit: brb] 09:31:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 09:31:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:33:22 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Myk267] 09:37:47 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:38:02 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:38:04 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38:41 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:38:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:54 smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:07 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:40:20 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:42:08 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:43:49 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:44:06 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 09:44:12 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 09:52:50 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A4B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:01 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:57:09 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:28 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:02:05 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:95eb:a47f:ef70:b945] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:23:48 -!- nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:24:32 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:24:46 saage [~saage@201.89.75.212] has joined #lisp 10:24:46 -!- saage [~saage@201.89.75.212] has quit [Changing host] 10:24:46 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 10:27:43 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:30:56 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:32:14 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:35:42 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:38:16 There are two ways (perhaps more, but let's ignore that) to abstract something: higher-order functions and macros. I suppose macros could blowup your code size, but even if we would ignore that, would there be a reason for both of them to exist? 10:39:11 <|3b|> if you want to ignore details, then no 10:39:12 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-247.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:39:28 Is one of them easier to debug for example? 10:39:37 <|3b|> they abstract different things, at different times, etc 10:39:44 <|3b|> depends on how you use them 10:39:50 The advantage of macros would be that you can make your specific test case completely concrete, I think. 10:39:55 <|3b|> properly used, macros can be much less verbose 10:40:11 <|3b|> proper use of macros frequently involves expanding to higher order functions 10:40:23 zhulikas [~Derp@3e6b0c07.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:41:03 Let's say you are building some tree traversal function in which things need to be done the same, but mirrored left and right. 10:41:08 <|3b|> for example IF makes an ugly HOF in CL, since lambda is relatively verbose 10:41:31 So, f left right tree = ... would be one way to abstract that using higher-order functions. 10:41:56 The disadvantage is that it is a completely opaque representation. 10:43:24 In short, I am asking how you can manage hugely abstract code, best. 10:43:38 Thinking Very Hard 10:43:53 Another approach is to do some copy-paste if things are almost, but not quite the same. 10:44:24 dlowe: is there a hyperspec entry for that? 10:44:24 I am not saying it's great, but people do it anyway. 10:44:32 Guthur: there should be 10:44:49 dlowe: yes, that seems to be the way I get by, but I was looking for something more scalable. 10:44:50 <|3b|> best choice is to have lots of options, and pick whichever is appropriate 10:45:05 dlowe: it becomes a problem when new people come on board. 10:45:18 fasta: I think that's the nature of the gig 10:45:26 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has joined #lisp 10:45:49 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 10:46:30 the art of programming is all about managing complexity 10:46:42 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 10:46:51 so you know, you make small modules that can be reasoned about and have well-defined interfaces, etc, etc 10:47:12 If that's the case, then why aren't interactive theorem provers being used for large scale development? 10:47:21 That makes it more of a science. 10:47:56 only Haskell developers believe that programs are theorums 10:48:34 Haskell developers believe in the Simply-Typed lambda calculus with sauce. 10:48:34 compilers can be viewed as such, I guess. 10:48:36 *|3b|* suspects most 'large scale development' is done by an industry that isn't generally interested in 'science' 10:48:45 |3b|: well, there's that 10:49:45 <|3b|> or much of anything beyond next year's budget for that matter 10:50:03 but if you were to use a theorem prover, you'd need to describe your problem 10:50:11 once you've done that, you've written your program 10:50:18 dlowe: no 10:50:27 or written a large test suite 10:50:29 dlowe: describing is the easy part. 10:50:41 dlowe: you need to actually solve it too. 10:50:50 *|3b|* wonders what 'theorem' would need proved to implement diablo3 10:51:12 |3b|: it's really not that hard. 10:51:30 fasta: why don't you write a diablo 3, then? 10:51:39 |3b|: or at least not when compared to writing the actual game. 10:51:48 I see. 10:51:57 |3b|: I think in a commercial setting things are view more from an engineering perspective which brings together a lot of different factors, including but certainly not limited to science 10:52:16 sure. you need science for engineering, but it's not the only factor 10:52:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:23 dlowe: and certainly for some parts, it could be useful. 10:52:30 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 10:52:49 Things like the actual game-engine for example. 10:53:11 "This engine will never crash or use more than 2GB of memory." 10:53:24 That's the kind of thing which would be useful on a console. 10:53:55 <|3b|> now prove that it will continue running at 60fps while not using 2gb, for all possible input data 10:54:08 |3b|: that's also entirely possible. 10:54:14 <|3b|> on all possible hardware 10:54:22 <|3b|> and OS versions 10:54:27 |3b|: that too would be possible. 10:54:45 <|3b|> how? 10:54:47 |3b|: it just gets more expensive with every extra property you require. 10:55:16 <|3b|> you have complete specs of windows 7, all consumer gfx cards and driver versions, etc in your proof? 10:55:30 also, prove that it will never halt 10:55:47 Of course, those proofs don't take cat urine into account. 10:56:02 Zhivago: +1 10:56:23 Which is fundamentally why proofs of correctness don't scale well. 10:56:37 |3b|: I think that's sort of a silly statement; if the information doesn't exist, you cannot make it up. 10:56:48 <|3b|> fasta: that's sort of the point though 10:56:53 |3b|: but you can run real-time processes on Windows. 10:56:55 I think linting systems are pretty much the state of the art as far as proving things about arbitrary programs. And they aren't that amazing. 10:56:59 <|3b|> a proof that doesn't apply to the real world doesn't help much 10:57:00 Zhivago: is that the cat pee'd on my keyboard halting state 10:57:11 |3b|: and you can test how long certain operations on the GPU take in such a state. 10:57:16 <|3b|> 'this program will always work perfectly, unless you actually run it' 10:57:16 The tide is already turning toward resilient rather than correct systems, imho. 10:57:23 |3b|: based on those things you can build up a model. 10:57:36 |3b|: a pessimistic model which will always be true. 10:57:36 <|3b|> fasta: which will be wrong next month, when new drivers ship 10:57:54 It reminds me of data corruption due to crc false positives. 10:58:03 |3b|: so a bunch of constants (which can be autogenerated) will have to be changed. Big deal. 10:58:21 we eagerly await your demonstration of this system 10:58:42 <|3b|> fasta: what good does changing constants in your prover do when you already shipped the code? 10:59:23 |3b|: uhm, that's an unreasonable demand. 10:59:31 http://ertos.nicta.com.au/research/l4.verified/ 10:59:49 <|3b|> also, consider how many combinations of gfx card, motherboard, ram configuration (including bios settings), hard drive, drover version, installed windows ptches, etc you need to autogenerate constants for 11:00:12 |3b|: and hand-written linux patches ;) 11:00:27 Anyhow, while I think that proofs of correctness are well and fine, I just suspect that they are generally going to remain uneconomical. 11:00:31 <|3b|> right, and VirtualBox versions between the linux patches and windows :) 11:00:41 Zhivago: I think that's the keypoint. 11:00:49 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:50 Zhivago: but I think I know how to make it economical. 11:01:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:01:04 <|3b|> yeah, more proofs would be nice, i just don't think they cover quite as much as you seem to suggest they do 11:01:09 Good luck. :) 11:01:19 |3b|: sure they do. 11:01:26 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 11:01:31 |3b|: if all the components it uses have models, it can. 11:01:44 <|3b|> right, so no use for consumer software then? 11:01:46 |3b|: so, for example for an intel chip, there exist exact models. 11:01:53 Cat urine and proving that your proofs are the right proofs are the two tricky bits. 11:02:07 |3b|: basically every instruction has some upperbound on how long it takes to execute. 11:02:31 Zhivago: the right proof thing is overrated, imho. 11:02:35 <|3b|> fasta: including the ones interacting with random stuff on a pci bus with random hardware attached? 11:02:51 Non-maskable interrupts make that trickier. 11:03:40 |3b|: you do need to control the platform, of course; I know these arguments and perhaps for 'Windows' it doesn't work, but surely it does for other OSs, or a controlled system environment (e.g. Apple could do something like this). 11:04:13 *|3b|* suspects apple would rather be free to pick whatever components are cheaper that day 11:04:35 |3b|: we are not talking about what Apple _will_ do, but what they could do. 11:04:59 It's clear that nowadays people using a theorem prover are crazy ;) 11:05:18 and be free to hire people that can actually develop their systems. Finding people to develop these proof driven systems is going to economically unsound 11:05:19 Why would apple care? 11:05:26 CL suffers the same problem 11:05:41 These things are all entirely irrelevant to modern computers that aren't controlling heavy machinery. 11:06:01 Zhivago: well, I find it quite annoying when something crashes. 11:06:14 And for those, you're probably better off with dedicated hardware. 11:06:17 <|3b|> fasta: i'd find it annoying if i couldn't afford to even run it in the first place too :) 11:06:43 What are the crahses due to? 11:06:49 For example there are some datastructures in Haskell which have been extracted from Coq. 11:07:11 It's really nice that you know it's never going to do anything wrong. 11:07:37 Until you get a cat, at least. 11:08:22 Zhivago: you are saying that they proved the wrong thing or hardware malfunction? 11:08:27 Personaly, I prefer software written with the assumption that it will crash, and that crashing isn't a big deal. 11:09:21 Well, the proofs rest upon optimistic assumptions of ideal hardware. 11:09:32 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 11:09:56 And once you take advantage of those proofs you're now vulnerable to any non-deterministic even outside of those assumptions. 11:10:28 Which means that they're now free to multiply invisibly through your system. 11:10:29 Zhivago: and how would you 'defend' against that in general software? 11:10:59 By assuming that your system is a rotten piece of crap riddled with corruption and bugs. 11:11:15 Zhivago: and I think it would be possible to compile to a completely different substrate which would void your concerns. 11:11:23 And working toward eventual statistical consistency or something like that. 11:11:42 For example, instead of copying something in one place, it could copy it to 100 distributed systems and get a majority vote. 11:11:54 It would be 1000000 times slower, but would be very resilient. 11:12:00 fasta: Then what benefit is your proof of correctness? 11:12:11 Zhivago: that it is correct? 11:12:31 Or you could just have a statistical model of expected behaviours and measure against that instead. 11:12:36 Zhivago: and whatever other approach that produced software, likely isn't. 11:12:46 And not bother with trying to prove it. 11:13:26 Zhivago: let's say you have a system guarding nuclear missiles via a web-interface, your statistical approach is not going to work. 11:13:57 (I hope I am not giving anyone an idea here!) ;) 11:13:58 Why is that? 11:14:17 Zhivago: because there is nothing statistical about an event which perhaps never happens. 11:15:11 <|3b|> trying to 'prove' things in the face of a determined attacker with nation-sized resources sounds even less likely to work :p 11:15:12 Sure there is -- you can measure component behaviour in isolation. 11:16:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:05 |3b|: you mean because of hardware backdoors? 11:16:13 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:28 <|3b|> hardware backdoors, human factors, unreliable communication channels, etc 11:16:54 <|3b|> physical access (including remotely adding noise, through heat or EM noise, etc) 11:17:20 bb_oz [~bb_oz@CPE-124-189-220-14.axhm1.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:17:26 |3b|: can't you put it in some metal container to shield it from that? 11:17:27 Anyhow, I just suggest avoiding a false sense of security. 11:17:28 <|3b|> interfering with incoming power 11:17:46 |3b|: there are diesel generators for that 11:17:50 There are always points of unexpected failure. 11:18:03 <|3b|> there are impurities in the diesel for that too :p 11:18:24 It's really too bad that all of those attacks are classified. 11:18:43 *|3b|* 's point is again that your model doesn't cover the 'real world' so the proof doesn't apply there either 11:19:01 Likely governments play games against themselves trying to hack their own machines. 11:19:20 Or, proving it correct is well and fine, but you still need regular maintenance and testing. 11:19:25 Or perhaps I am overrating them. 11:19:35 -!- bb_oz [~bb_oz@CPE-124-189-220-14.axhm1.woo.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 11:19:47 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 Why would you need maintenance? 11:20:01 <|3b|> because you found a flaw in the model 11:20:14 In the hardware model? 11:20:16 <|3b|> or 'reality' changed 11:20:29 <|3b|> the model upon which the proof was based, whatever that includes 11:20:41 Ok, so we have to wait for 3D printers to print chips then. 11:20:53 Won't help. 11:21:00 Because? 11:21:15 (except for the injecting of errors part) 11:21:17 <|3b|> because you aren't printing them for everyone 11:21:28 So? 11:21:34 <|3b|> so reality changes 11:21:42 Because fabrication has errors., 11:21:43 impulse32_ [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:22:21 Yes, we basically live in a shitty universe. 11:22:32 *|3b|* suspects a provable one would be worse 11:22:33 There is no correctness to begin with. 11:22:42 Having accepted that, proofs can be useful to determine that your intentions are correct. 11:22:53 You just can't rely on them to ensure that your execution is correct. 11:23:15 Zhivago: but there isn't anything else to rely on, is there? 11:23:25 Statistics. :) 11:23:27 Zhivago: every time you use a compiler, you also rely on it. 11:23:55 Zhivago: so, how do you use statistics if once every billion instructions a 1 in some byte somewhere goes to a zero? 11:23:58 fasta: look up sigma, often in engeinerring they define a percentage of error the system must take in to account 11:23:59 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:21 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:29 Because that will probably cause the results to deviate from the expected model. 11:24:32 syntex: I have had statistics; I even taught it. 11:24:53 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:24:56 Or if it doesn't, then we don't care. 11:25:12 -!- impulse32_ [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:22 Zhivago: that could only be done if you had cached the results, in which case there was no need to compute it in the first place. 11:25:32 *|3b|* also wonders how you prove your developers aren't idiots :) 11:25:32 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 Why would you need to cache them in order to have an expected model? 11:25:43 arnuld [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has joined #lisp 11:25:47 |3b|: let them prove something in Coq. 11:25:49 wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has joined #lisp 11:25:54 |3b|: if they can, they aren't. 11:26:06 <|3b|> fasta: every day? before each task? 11:26:13 bbiab. 11:26:29 |3b|: no, just give them a week to solve some non-trivial problem which cannot be found on the web. 11:26:31 <|3b|> fasta: 'idiot' isn't always a permanent trait :) 11:27:02 |3b|: how would you characterize the function over time? 11:27:24 <|3b|> pretty noisy unfortunately :( 11:27:24 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 11:27:54 Zhivago: because some computations simply output a one or a zero and there is no way to know whether it was 'correct' other than by doing the computation again. 11:27:58 <|3b|> people can be idiots due to hangovers, worry about family problems, illness, etc 11:28:10 <|3b|> or just not caring about the task :p 11:28:24 <|3b|> it can also be externally imposed by management 11:28:42 -!- wztian [~quassel@119.41.31.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:06 |3b|: so, then you just have to wait for that external brain copying device and do the test daily on the copy then. 11:29:21 |3b|: I think you can better wait for an actual AI to arrive, though. 11:30:53 <|3b|> or just try to avoid thinking of things as silver bullets that will fix everything :) 11:31:00 mcox [~user@124-148-47-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:31:38 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:32 clhs stream-listen 11:33:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for stream-listen. 11:33:37 clhs streamlisten 11:33:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for streamlisten. 11:33:39 clhs listen 11:33:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm 11:34:18 SplinterOfChaos [~soc@cblmdm24-52-84-142.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:56 fvides [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:38:15 When I was young I was also quite dazzled by Hoare and had a lot of hope about automatic program proof systems. 11:38:31 Ask yourself why ACL2 uses only a subset of CL, and not CL itself. 11:39:17 And then read about RAX and consider that even if they'd fed the exact CL program to their program proof checker, they would still have had their bug! 11:40:13 That's why now I'm laughting at static type systems proponents :-) 11:40:24 But perhaps I'm just an old fool on the hill now. 11:40:55 And perhaps in 2030, people will write web pages and payroll systems in Coq? 11:41:36 Is sxhash guaranteed to produce the same hash for symbols or references where there's a copying GC even after the object may have moved? 11:42:03 pjb: what about RAX? 11:42:14 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:42:40 fasta: http://spinroot.com/spin/Doc/rax.pdf 11:42:47 Modius: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_sxhash.htm 11:43:01 Modius: also consider (sxhash "FOO") vs (sxhash :foo) 11:43:36 fasta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZK0tW8EhQ 11:46:38 -!- mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:47:00 fasta: http://www.cliki.net/DeepSpace1 11:47:23 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 11:47:30 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has quit [Changing host] 11:47:30 arnuld [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 11:49:42 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:51:27 H4ns: Not quite sure how to intrepret this - "the hash-code for an "object" is always the same within a single session. ... " - I'd assume that means even a relocating symbol would be constant-sxhash. . . ? 11:53:57 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:54:18 pjb: rax doesn't talk about the constructive logics like are now being used. 11:54:39 pnq [~nick@AC8187DC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:29 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-141-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:58:39 [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:58:42 fasta: that's not really the point. 11:58:44 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:58:44 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:59:17 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:17 there are two points. 1- you need to have formal specifications if all the hardware, OS and libraries you're using. 2- see G.E.B. 11:59:19 Modius: yes. i'd interpret it the same way. the gc does not "visibly modify" any object. 11:59:42 The RAX bug is a direct application of G.E.B, the most important book of the XXth century. 12:02:46 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:02:52 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:42 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 12:07:17 pjb: I read G.E.B.. I don't see the connection. 12:07:35 pjb: I didn't read the whole paper yet, though. 12:08:03 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 12:08:06 Incompleteness? 12:08:21 fasta: remember the disc player vs. the disc destroying the disc player which played it. 12:08:51 pjb: can't remember it; I also read other things. 12:09:04 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:09:10 But yes, it's the incompleteness theorem. 12:09:43 pjb: you are sounding a bit like Mister Miyagi in the import important film of the XXth century. 12:10:30 If only http://rufi.zonalibre.org/archives/pat%20morita.jpg :-) 12:11:37 -!- mcox [~user@124-148-47-215.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:12:43 pjb: uhm, how did you find that so quickly? 12:12:55 I'm a robot. 12:12:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:13:03 Sent from the future? 12:13:14 Or one of those JPL test models? 12:13:40 Sent from the future :-) 12:14:55 Interesting, I didn't know there was a future. 12:16:29 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:17:38 _nix00 [~Adium@180.158.242.137] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:18:58 fasta: Well, you're right actually. What there is actually, it's a multiverse, in which some universes are exactly like this one, but only time-shifted. So when you go to the past, you don't really travel in time (which is restricted to one universe), but you travel cross universes, to one similar to yours in the past. 12:19:20 Then you can wreak all the havoc you want it doesn't change your original universe :-) 12:20:30 pjb: AFAIK, there is some way to do arbitrarily fast computation if you use relativity in exactly the right way. 12:20:53 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:03 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:21:13 yes, with black holes. 12:21:43 pjb: what's keeping us from doing that technologically? 12:22:08 pjb: actually flying to one would be one thing, but otherwise? 12:22:26 material science: we don't know how to build a material strong enough to withstand introduction into a black hole. 12:22:34 pjb: i.e. how impossible is it? 12:22:49 is that a channel about lisp? or was i given a wrong direction? 12:23:09 Well, the problem is that people keep asking #lispcafe related questions in #lisp 12:23:40 Isn't lisp what ${DEITY} (or should I say +deity+ in the correct convention) crafted the universe in and hence the discussion is not misplaced? 12:23:40 pjb: you aren't under obligation to answer 12:23:55 pjb: I am in #lispcafe now 12:24:07 Modius` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:09 antoszka: i'd want to change it, so, *deity* 12:25:04 :) 12:25:39 I just thought the pluses would concide funnily with symbols popular in a number of religions. 12:26:00 Doug Hoyte would've postulated just deity. 12:26:05 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:26:09 *maxm-* had now reproduced sbcl HEAD memory corruption while compiling my system from scratch.. In fact it crashes in the same place always, in re-loading stefil 12:26:29 and another data point, it does not happen when I use (ql:quickload) rather then ,load-system 12:26:37 maxm-: and what about a reduced test-case? 12:26:56 so its an interaction of a lot of output, slime flusher thread, and region alloc stuff than nikodemus is screwing around with 12:27:05 stassats: trying to come up with one 12:29:32 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:29:55 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 12:31:04 urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-99-131.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:13 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 12:35:27 ok, without slime/swank it dies in the same place, but control-stack-exhaustion.. The root cause is that somehow stefil if its loaded, and some tests added, and then stefil is recompiled and reloaded, it manages to somehow make new root-suite a child test ifself, and goes into infinite loop in method COUNT-TESTS 12:37:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:40:42 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:12 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 12:44:51 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:51:20 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-220-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 12:52:32 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-220-164.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:54:54 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@180.158.242.137] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:57:37 lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:57:56 -!- lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 13:00:01 it should be ok to recompile sbcl C runtime without going building lisp stuff right? as long as I don't change data structures and such? (ie add a few printfs or something) 13:00:31 its my first time debugging gengc crap coz 13:00:37 yes, it's ok, but it won't let you do that easily 13:01:01 sbcl needs to know addresses of c functions, so recompiling them may change it 13:01:10 so you need to redo some compilation steps 13:01:15 well I got somewhat reproducible test case, the area being hosed is always the same (the alloc_region in the current thread structure) 13:02:08 i once modified the build process to be done in about 9 seconds 13:02:28 but, just doing sh make-genesis-2.sh and sh make-target-2.sh should be easy 13:04:33 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 249 seconds] 13:04:59 i can put a full diff for the build-system, if make-genesis-2.sh && make-target-2.sh is slow for you 13:05:23 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-253-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:49 ASau [~user@176.14.220.200] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 -!- mcsontos 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has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 13:25:09 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.7.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:29:24 -!- cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:33 -!- b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:29:43 [6502]: yawning would be better accepted in #lispcafe. 13:32:00 <[6502]> pjb: sorry... lasagna was probably too much, and I'l taking care of the internet transmission of a chess tournament 13:32:08 <[6502]> I'l = I'm 13:33:19 [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:33:19 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 13:33:19 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 13:35:06 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-198-38.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:38:40 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 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14:36:12 fansshaw [~fansshaw@183.246.24.147] has joined #lisp 14:36:22 -!- fansshaw [~fansshaw@183.246.24.147] has left #lisp 14:38:44 I wonder if it'd be possible to write a system that generates code that passes a number of tests via machine learning 14:39:18 some people write code like that 14:39:35 <|3b|> probably hard to define a useful enough set of tests for a machine to generate code from 14:40:04 <|3b|> overfitting is less of a problem when humans write the code to pass the tests 14:40:06 well, if you could, that would really be test driven development 14:40:33 the internal code might be crap, but it would pass the tests 14:40:45 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:40:49 <|3b|> as an extreme, just extract the test cases and build a big switch statement 14:41:38 I suppose so 14:41:38 *|3b|* would expect that computer generated code is more likely to fail all the not-explicitly-tested cases 14:42:07 <|3b|> unless you constrain it to be effectively just programming by writing the tests 14:42:36 evolution eventually gets things right. just look at us.. wait.. ok i take that back. 14:44:25 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 14:44:40 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 14:48:08 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:03 -!- [6502] [1fbe8e2a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.190.142.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:51:05 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-13.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-13.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 14:51:06 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:51:35 replore [~replore@FL1-125-198-49-191.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 14:51:40 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:58 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:54:02 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:59:26 kanru` [~user@61-228-152-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:44 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:00:10 morning 15:00:24 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:01:38 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:55 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-152-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:05:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-160-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:15 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:17 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128101218.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 15:08:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-152-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:26 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:38 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:55 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 15:14:05 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-198-38.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:14:28 hello 15:18:05 hello loke 15:18:05 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 15:20:34 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:23:35 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 15:23:40 hello gigamonkey 15:23:49 hello 15:24:38 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.134.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:06 Hmm... I have a problem. 15:29:37 fe[nl]ix 15:29:39 therep? 15:30:34 My application depends on CLOSER-MOP. However, I'd like to support ABCL as well, and ABCL's MOP implementation is good enough to handle my needs. However, since closer-mop doesn't support abcl, I have a problem. Question is: what is the easiest way I can use closer-mop for the non-abcl platforms, but just the plain abcl mop for abcl? 15:30:55 -!- snarkyjack [~snarkyjac@173.221.185.2.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: snarkyjack] 15:31:05 Do I litter the code with #+ and #-? 15:31:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:31:48 loke: you could write your own restricted mock version of closer-mop for abcl 15:32:24 loke: i.e. on abcl, you load your own closer-mop-abcl that defines the closer-mop package and imports the relevant symbols. on other platforms, you use the real closer-mop. 15:32:38 or send a patch to closer-mop 15:32:50 nha [~prefect@f052235151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:19 jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 15:33:31 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 15:33:44 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 15:33:44 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 15:33:51 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:36:33 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-247.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:38:13 -!- jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:38 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:54 stassats: thanks 15:46:07 stassats: I shall try both 15:46:22 Who is the maintainer of closer mop btw? 15:46:36 pcos, I think? 15:46:37 loke: Pascal Costanza. 15:47:36 Hmm... turns out that a patch request was sent by the ABCL maintainers to Pascal back in march 15:48:59 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:49:53 loke: what year? 15:50:09 This year 15:50:16 ah good 15:50:19 http://abcl-dev.blogspot.sg/2012/03/closer-to-mop.html 15:50:36 Oh wait... 15:50:45 THat's not for closer-mop, but for mop feature tests 15:50:51 -!- antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:06 rpg: yes 15:55:59 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-smpihtmwunghyvpm] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:44 shifty` [~user@114-198-36-60.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 16:00:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:01:27 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-39-93.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:02 stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.183.222] has joined #lisp 16:06:05 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-99-131.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:02 DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has joined #lisp 16:07:41 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 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gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:24 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:27 ahh it's a wonderful day 16:27:59 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:28:57 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:28:58 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 16:29:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9063460.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:29:50 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 16:31:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:41 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.132.113.24] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:33:22 ikki [~ikki@201.132.113.24] has joined #lisp 16:35:20 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-!- [SLB] [~slabua@host27-160-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 17:07:54 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:08:27 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:35 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:43 yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has joined #lisp 17:09:27 who knows if it's better to get 1st edition of EOPL or 2nd (3rd seems to be way bad in comparison with 1,2)? 17:12:07 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-013-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:46 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:13:47 fe[nl]ix: Still there? Sorry, I was on the world's longest phone call when you sent the message. 17:15:33 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:05 yes 17:16:42 we were discussing iterate at our lisp group last night and were thinking about setting up something for it on launchpad. Wanted to know if you thought that would be ok. 17:16:58 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:17:03 Are you the iterate person? or is that attila? 17:17:22 *rpg* is forgetful 17:17:50 *_8david* thought attila was the reiterate person 17:18:50 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.43] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.43] has quit [Changing host] 17:18:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:19:10 fe[nl]ix: You seem to be the person who takes all the lost kitten CL libraries ;-) 17:19:36 I'm the cat lady 17:19:40 old&grumpy 17:19:52 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:48 nope, it's not me 17:21:13 fe[nl]ix: it must be attila then. my bad 17:21:19 I'm not sure who cares for iterate, given that attila had his own iterate-like library 17:21:28 featuring a better code-walker 17:22:42 Looks like Attila is the one who has most recently pushed an iterate patch. 17:23:40 ok 17:24:53 lopin 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wrote up my thoughts 17:48:06 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:24 (I read the list casually, mark all patches/bug reports, and commit this and that every now and then if it's not controversial or it's a failing test) 17:48:30 *attila_lendvai* is afk 17:49:37 -!- pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: pnpuff] 17:51:25 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 17:52:37 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:18 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 17:54:10 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:55:01 pnpuff [~uu@79.37.253.48] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 -!- pnpuff [~uu@79.37.253.48] has quit [Changing host] 17:55:01 pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:55:33 |SLB| [~slabua@host136-135-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:57:01 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:14 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:57:24 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 18:00:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:36 pnq [~nick@AC819B10.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:42 -!- argantonio [~tony@5ac8c1e4.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:55 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:35 josemanuel [~josemanue@124.171.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 jathd [~jathd@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:59 attila_lendvai: sounds like you're the maintainer to me :) 18:11:50 attila_lendvai: would it be OK for us to set up an iterate "product" or whatever it is on launchpad... 18:12:34 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:47 -!- |SLB| is now known as [SLB] 18:12:52 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host136-135-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 18:12:52 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:13:39 dlowe: agreed --- seems like there's not much of anyone else to do the commits. 18:14:38 <_8david> so, reiterate unintentionally depends on iterate? :-) 18:15:58 -!- jathd [~jathd@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:59 rpg: to the extent I'm the maintainer: sure, I like launchpad. 18:17:04 _8david: heh, can be... :) but iirc it's just lazyness, it comes in through hu.dwim.common which should switch to reiterate eventually, but that headache is for a later session... :) 18:17:12 attila_lendvai: i think you did the most friendly project takeover ever. 18:17:37 there was noone to take it over from... 18:17:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:18:08 but there were pending patches, some from us, some addressing issues we had 18:19:17 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[~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:37:13 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c9063460.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:39 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:41:54 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 18:43:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:44:57 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:46:24 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:59 stassats: forks used to be mostly aggressive. now that merging has become so easy that seems to be the case less often. 18:52:44 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:45 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 18:58:01 -!- joast 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I once saw a post from you dating several years back where you show some dude how to interpret an (R language was it?) sequence loop in a lisp repl (by typing something like 1:10 in the repl it would print out the sequence from 1 to 10 by 1) do you (anyone) have a link to such post ? 20:08:43 you can write it yourself 20:09:57 -!- CrazyEddy [~nonrelaxa@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:11 I know that's what i want to see that was a good educational example to learn and start from.. 20:11:55 (iota 1 10)? 20:12:00 or a reader macro? 20:12:23 vaflis [Derp@3e6b0c07.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:13:13 i took at as the later 20:13:24 just define a reader-macro for each digit, and to the parsing from there 20:14:00 a reader macro 20:15:08 irpanech6 [~user@184.66.174.87] has joined #lisp 20:15:52 -!- shurikas [~Derp@3e6b20e3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:16:01 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 20:17:05 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-013-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:18 That makes me want to mess around with reader macros. :) 20:19:04 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:19 -!- SplinterOfChaos [~soc@cblmdm24-52-84-142.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:20:29 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 20:25:07 francogrex: if you want to implement that as a reader macro, you have to configure all the digits as reader macros, since a token such as 1:10 can start with any digits, and therefore you must implement the almost whole lisp reader, since all the tokens can start with a digit. "5AM" is the name of a package. 5am:test would be a symbol. 5am itself is a symbol. 5e1 is a floating point number. 51 is an integer. 5/2 is a ratio. And of 20:25:07 course, you then can add 1:10 to read as (iota 1 10). 20:26:15 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-06/msg01128.html 20:26:27 found it :) 20:26:52 it was ruby 20:26:59 Of course, now we have a ruby parser written in CL 20:27:13 -!- snarkyjack [~snarkyjac@173.221.185.2.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: snarkyjack] 20:27:15 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.241.61] has joined #lisp 20:27:52 we do? 20:27:55 francogrex: this is a little cheat, implementing a REPL with another reader, because that reader can't be used with CL:LOAD. 20:28:03 sykopomp: yes, I saw that last week. 20:28:15 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:27 francogrex: the advantage of hooking with reader macros is that it can be used with CL:LOAD and everywhere CL:READ is calle. 20:28:29 d 20:28:34 DGASAU`` [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.241.61] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:06 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.241.61] has joined #lisp 20:29:08 ok, but it was a cool example. 20:29:34 sykopomp: https://github.com/m2ym/ruby-parser and http://code.google.com/p/cl-ruby/source/browse/ruby.lisp 20:30:52 pjb: I have a reader on # 20:30:55 #\d 20:31:40 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:51 If it can't find the form it is looking for it just rereads the same string with :standard readtable. 20:31:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:01 cl-awk, cl-ruby, aware of any cl-python? :) 20:32:14 dim: sure, there's a cl-python since a long time. 20:32:18 http://www.cliki.net/programming%20language 20:32:23 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 oh I missed it before, that http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ 20:32:46 nice 20:32:51 I might as well need it :) 20:33:00 actually, you don't have to use reader macros 20:33:58 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:08 (defpackage |1| (:use :cl) (:export |10|)) (define-symbol-macro 1:10 (alexandria:iota 10 :start 1)) 20:34:13 repeat for all numbers 20:36:12 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-246.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:21 stassats: very nice! 20:39:50 *francogrex* preciously keeping all these example 20:40:03 stassats is a bad man. 20:40:10 bad stassats! 20:41:45 why? 20:41:47 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-246.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:05 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 20:44:43 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8178D6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:49:17 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:50:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:51:00 -!- 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[~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:00 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:10:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:52 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:11 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0DE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:17:28 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:21:22 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:22:23 two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:28 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:26:05 FareTower: should i add something to my blurb about how Blockly is not Blocky 22:28:34 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:41 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:31:05 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-45-170.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:14 fe[nl]ix: I used to do that too (the version.lisp-expr thing). I grew out of it and don't regret giving it up. 22:31:24 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313909.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:32:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:41 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:32:42 one (admittedly tenuous) argument against version.lisp-expr is that you can't just grep the version out of your .asd's symlinked in /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site-systems 22:34:56 <_8david> surely that's not what an up-to-date user of asdf 2.512.fare.1027+3 would do anyway? 22:35:28 fantazo_ [~fantazo@91.119.97.228] has joined #lisp 22:36:53 -!- p_l|backup is now known as p_l 22:37:06 bigger version -> better software 22:37:07 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|backup 22:37:21 slyrus_: I don't care about grep 22:37:37 I was using grep as a synonym for manual inspection 22:37:44 visual, anyway 22:38:09 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-86-149.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:38:22 simplify, simplify, even if you're not sure why 22:38:23 -!- jasox_ [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:40 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:39:09 someone who is into psychology can design an experiment on whenever people searching for library doing foo, prefer "foo-lib 0.93 - robust foo utilities library" vs "jFooPattern 11 - exciting foo-related framework" 22:39:25 I know what I'll use 22:39:35 dto: send urls, it's better. And yes, you could add a (not to be confused with blockly) line 22:39:58 corburn [~corburn@24-121-13-97.npg.sta.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:17 slyrus_: I use either (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system "foo")), if it's loaded, or (ql-dist:find-system "foo") otherwise 22:40:57 yeah, yeah... but still, I don't (any longer) like those version files. it's a minor nit though. 22:41:49 _8david, asdf versions don't get that bad, do they? 22:41:57 slyrus_: what is there not to like about the approach itself ? 22:42:50 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:42:54 slyrus, there isn't a package management system for lisp packages, but there are plenty of package management systems around. 22:43:04 the fact that the asdf defintion now requires two files. i'm willing to admit that my arguments against it are weak, but nevertheless i think it's in poor taste 22:43:05 I don't see why write one just for lisp packages. 22:43:19 requires two files? why? 22:43:31 the .asd and the version.lisp-expr file 22:43:40 drwho [~drwho@137.229.79.8] has joined #lisp 22:43:50 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:43:50 leave the version in the .asd file, extract it somehow 22:44:06 FareTower: that's exactly what I don't want to do 22:44:07 that's what I do, yes 22:44:10 grep and sed 22:44:35 for xcvb, I extract it from git - and if no .git directory is present, I reach for a version.text file. 22:45:07 with automation to extract the version from git before to create a tarball 22:46:06 this is a bit like arguing about why such and such band sucks, or not. 22:46:07 for asdf itself, I have a script that bumps the version number, that I use before I push any change to the code. 22:46:12 time to go home... 22:46:26 take it easy 22:46:27 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@91.119.97.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:37 -!- dkasak [dkasak@s0.barwen.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50:28 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:34 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.46.14.90] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:53:33 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0DE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:57:33 -!- vaflis [Derp@3e6b0c07.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:58:21 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-78-35-56-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:23 hi all 22:59:51 I have problem I can't get my head around. 23:03:13 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:04:54 I have an input interface (for a parser combinator lib), INPUT-EMPTY-P, INPUT-FIRST, INPUT-REST and INPUT-POSITION. These generics should have methods for objects of type LIST, ARRAY, STRING, and STREAM (binary and character stream distinct). The destinction of character and non character input is necessary because of error handling information (line count). 23:07:14 so basically I have character-input whith slots position, line-count and character-count for strings and character streams and input with slot position for everything else. 23:07:51 Anyone maybe knows a pattern that could work this? 23:09:00 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:10:36 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc2-sgyl22-0-0-cust619.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:27 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:03 -!- timor101 [~icke@port-92-195-13-130.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:32:17 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:32:27 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:32:54 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.152.237.179] has joined #lisp 23:33:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:36 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:34:56 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:44 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:41:20 hello 23:41:49 I am trying to create a pathname for a file, based on a symbol 23:42:15 well, I am trying to create a pathname for a file with several dots in name 23:42:58 but CL returns some stupid pathname containing a > symbol before the dot 23:43:13 (merge-pathnames (string-downcase :hu.dwim.stefil) "/some-dir/") ==> #P"/some-dir/hu>.dwim.stefil" 23:43:24 what is this > symbol and how to avoid it? 23:43:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:08 antonv: does the same thing happen when you use SYMBOL-NAME? 23:46:19 yes, even if I use just a string literal: (merge-pathnames "a.b.c.d" "/some-dir/") ==> #P"/some-dir/a>.b>.c.d" 23:46:30 before every but last dot it inserts > 23:46:48 it's CCL on windows, but I saw other lisps to do this to 23:48:15 i use ccl on win too but i haven't tried your merge-pathnames example yet 23:48:45 however: (symbol-name :yesterday.today.always) => "YESTERDAY.TODAY.ALWAYS" 23:49:32 probably pathname interpretation or something in merge-pathnames? 23:50:40 DataLinkDroid: yes, it happens in merge-pathnames 23:51:02 DataLinkDroid: see above, another my example, I pass just a string literal to merge-pathnames 23:51:11 just got the same behaviour on my system with merge-pathnames 23:51:33 it's CCL's quirk, I don't know why it does it but IIRC path is still interpreted correctly when passed to say with-open-file 23:53:27 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:53:43 kennyd: yes, CCL handles it, but I am trying to pass it to another lisp, and another lisp is not happy )) 23:54:06 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:54:38 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:54:55 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:56:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:00 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:57:09 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-215.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]