00:00:00 sc_, OO is a style of programming 00:00:10 this is a channel about common lisp. CLOS is part of common lisp standard 00:00:17 I generate UMLish stuff from my code using DOT sometimes, but I generally don't write it up-front. 00:00:20 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:31 sc_: I don't think people write software large enough to require diagrammation in "pure lisp". 00:00:42 gnech [~gnech@ip70-162-97-133.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:47 sc_, what you seem to be asking is: "so how do you write/model large software systems without using techniques for taming the complexity of large software systems" 00:01:34 what's an area that lisp dominates? where does lisp fit in with respect to commercial software(any) ? 00:02:33 lisp is applicable to almost all commercial software projects. it is used in many. 00:02:35 Quadrescence: I was thinking more along the lines of "lispers probably use some different method for taming the complexity of large S/W systems than, say, the Java people" 00:03:22 large corporate software systems very often consist of multiple systems interconnected via networking, which requires archictecture and distributed system design. Use of Lisp makes no difference to this design process. 00:03:28 sc_, I think the fundamental method Lisp programmers use is the method of modeling the language to the problem 00:03:48 sc_: Java was fertile ground for certain practices to be marketed and *sold* 00:04:11 sc_: that doesn't make them stricte necessary, or only ones available 00:04:54 pip [~pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 00:04:57 sc_: flowcharts, UML's state diagram and similar, petri nets, improvised drawings, all have their place 00:05:00 arrsim [~user@128.250.116.167] has joined #lisp 00:05:04 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:20 Quadrescence: So, you mean creating DSLs/Bottom up design is normally used in Lisp 00:05:46 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.171] has joined #lisp 00:05:58 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:58 can someone recommend a good lisp resource for mindless java programmers 00:06:12 sc_, yes 00:06:26 gnech: Practical Common Lisp might be a good place to look. 00:07:22 p_l|backup: Thanks for that last statement. I am not at all familiar with petri nets (I shall look it up). But yes, I see that UML's state diagram can be used. 00:07:46 DataLinkDroid: nice, thank you 00:08:18 gnech: you're welcome 00:08:27 vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:27 -!- vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC815F7D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:09:00 sc_: lisp tends to discourage certain elements that lead to code sprawl 00:10:07 gnech: if you have a java background then Clojure may be a good place to start. 00:10:21 vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:22 -!- vhost- [~vhost@robodance.kyleterry.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:10:22 vhost- [~vhost@unaffiliated/vhost-] has joined #lisp 00:10:27 What about Scala? 00:10:31 Among "Practical Common Lisp" and "Land of Lisp" which do you guys suggest for an assembly/C person very interested in learning the lisp approach to programming? Or maybe SICP? 00:10:34 any place where the entry level job is "modifying Nth swing form based on some bussiness-lingo 'requirement' and a ton of UML" is a place to run away form 00:10:52 sc_: CL has a wonderful little function called CL:DISASSEMBLE :) 00:11:07 MACROEXPAND is also very nice :) 00:11:31 definitely make it easy to see what is happening from assembly upwards 00:11:34 p_l|backup: re code sprawl, what did you have in mind? 00:12:18 p_l|backup: except that DISASSEMBLE does not always show machine assembly 00:12:40 DataLinkDroid: the fact that writing macros, mini-languages etc. leads to situations where the code sprawl of countless forms gets shrunk to something small 00:13:10 DataLinkDroid: yes, but even on CLISP you might be able to see how your code turns into a loop, jumps etc. 00:13:50 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 00:15:13 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-92-114.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 00:15:28 p_l|backup: macros/DSLs certainly lead to conciseness. i've also never seen a CLOS system consisting of myriads of miniscule classes that do virtually nothing 00:16:05 that's because we don't have to fight the language.. 00:16:12 :) 00:16:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:12 -!- kanru` [~user@61-228-144-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:18:05 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:18:12 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 00:18:30 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 00:19:06 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:19:12 -!- gnech [~gnech@ip70-162-97-133.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:22:06 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:22:14 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 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[~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:14 I'm getting an "undefined alien function" error when using quicklisp to load lisp-magick. The error is on (at.nil.lisp-magick:get-magick-options 0). What am I missing? 02:08:48 -!- carlo_au [~carlo@ppp59-167-5-183.lns1.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:09:27 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.41.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:13:58 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 02:16:14 __dict__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has joined #lisp 02:16:15 Tedl [~tedl@99-67-233-232.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:06 -!- Eediot [~user@pool-72-66-69-205.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:21:24 smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:39 nick`, failing to run an initialization function to load a .so ? 02:21:54 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has joined #lisp 02:22:00 nick`: did you check the version of ImageMagick you have installed? 02:22:02 nick`, are you loading from source or from a saved image? 02:22:24 do you have an earlier warning about failing to load a .so? 02:22:49 corni_ [~corni@p4FE38241.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:22:50 -!- corni_ [~corni@p4FE38241.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 02:22:50 corni_ [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 02:23:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-2.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:23:58 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:16 I installed with apt, found I didn't have magick-wand and got the source with wand and built and installed that. 02:25:36 I did have an earlier warning about the .so which I fixed by appending the appropriate location to the path. 02:26:08 must be missing a library or include path or something 02:26:18 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:28:03 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-31-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:28:38 -!- Facefox [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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has left #lisp 07:05:38 anyone have recommendations for the best lisp die? 07:05:42 *ide 07:05:52 (thanks lion autocorrect) 07:06:03 I'm a little tired of using repl to toy around in 07:06:21 zhodge: Emacs + SLIME 07:06:24 Most people here use Emacs with SLIME. 07:07:04 I started learning emacs just today for that reason, yeah 07:07:14 -!- gko [~gko@42.71.224.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:07:15 I came across slime at one point but didn't look into it 07:07:17 let me check it out 07:07:34 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:57 pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has joined #lisp 07:09:01 best if you install SLIME from Quicklisp 07:09:10 least fuss and most tested version 07:09:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:11:21 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-hulhdgvvbxngginc] has joined #lisp 07:11:21 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-hulhdgvvbxngginc] has quit [Changing host] 07:11:21 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:20:34 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 07:21:05 zhodge: if you're a vim freak (like me), use slimv 07:21:35 unfortunately I know neither well at all 07:21:44 I've heard emacs' support is excellent though 07:21:48 support for lisp, I mean 07:22:09 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 07:22:17 jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 07:23:19 It is and has a sometimes overwhelming feature set. 07:23:24 yes 07:23:37 _nix00 [~Adium@116.226.54.111] has joined #lisp 07:24:51 while installing slime through quicklisp, I'm being told to add the following to my emacs file: 07:24:51 -!- jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:54 ";; Replace "sbcl" with the path to your implementation 07:24:54 (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")" 07:25:07 is this referring to my lisp implementation? 07:25:56 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:26:02 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:26:07 Yes. 07:26:08 morning 07:26:40 I'd find this out by checking where exactly? (I'm using common lisp) 07:27:14 what are you typing in at the prompt to get a REPL? 07:27:33 *clisp 07:27:36 It's your implementation of common lisp. If you don't know what that is somehow, you could do (lisp-implementation-type), I guess. But yeah, it just wants to know how to invoke your lisp. 07:27:36 I meant to say, my bad 07:27:49 then (... "clisp") it is 07:27:58 okay, okay 07:28:04 thanks for that, guys 07:29:14 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.85.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:22 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@116.226.54.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:34:10 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-234-197.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-176.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:59 pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:51 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-129-162.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-87.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:38:23 is there a way to bind the symbols in a SYMBOL-MACROLET to the values in something returned by VALUES? 07:38:43 basically I want MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND, but to allow the values to be SETFable 07:38:54 -!- corni_ [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:39:19 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-234-197.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:41:48 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:41:58 values are never setfable. Only places are setfable. 07:42:29 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 pjb: i see now, i got confused when I saw that a (values ...) form is a place 07:46:50 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:47:09 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 07:47:16 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 07:48:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:48:07 Why do you want a symbol-macrolet here? 07:48:15 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:48:50 If you already have the multiple values bound to variables, what would symbol-macrolet bring you more? 07:48:54 insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:59:16 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:01:56 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@99-71-111-56.lightspeed.whtnil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:06:15 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-11-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:06:15 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-11-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 08:06:15 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 08:07:04 pjb: you can implement with-slots with symbol-macrolet... I want something like a 'with-values' 08:07:31 with-values is called LET in CL. With LET* and MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND as variants. 08:07:51 but they aren't setfable (like the slots in with-slots) 08:08:02 values are never setfable. Only places are setfable. 08:08:45 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:09:11 you can (setf (values ...)), so I imagine a with-values that utilizes it 08:09:52 robot-beethoven: yes, but this binds _values_ to the _places_ in ... 08:10:03 you cannot bind places to places. 08:10:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:10:20 symbol-macrolet may let you "bind" places to symbols. 08:10:37 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 08:13:17 robot-beethoven: you'll have to define your own place with a custom setf expansion. 08:14:35 -!- zhodge [~zach@ip72-199-133-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: zhodge] 08:15:39 This is a big change in semantics. I'd use a new macro instead of SETF. 08:15:59 -!- arborist [~arborist@e182016098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:16:12 Something like clisp ext:letf 08:16:42 arborist [~arborist@f050023233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:01 b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:47 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:01 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:29:36 wanze [~wanze@61.139.105.97] has joined #lisp 08:29:50 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:30:18 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:30:48 timor [~icke@port-92-195-28-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:34:12 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:35:08 about flow charting discussion earlier, this http://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/DRAKON.pdf method kind of grew on me.. Software itself sucks, but the "severely restricted by ergonomic rules" flowchart kind of makes sense 08:35:44 I sketched out an algorithm with it (using its editor) and it was really easy to decompose/drill down move things around until it was clear 08:35:45 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:23 also the document itself is hilarously playful and full of russian humor :-) All examples deal with vodka, absense of money and such 08:36:31 -!- poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-66-68-80-227.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:37 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:38:47 it's russian tech :) 08:38:54 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:39:03 though personally I find the languages it was supposed to replace much more interesting 08:39:05 well I heard half the spacex dragon team are former exUSSR ppl 08:39:30 maxm-: because that's where you get the best in rockets 08:39:33 and drakon diagrams apparently alive and well and are used in sealaunch control software for example 08:39:46 though arguably USA had better solid motor people 08:40:11 *maxm-* is at a mind of making a drakon editor an example app when I'll get around to releasing my qt utils stuff 08:40:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:41:03 maxm-: what I'd like would be to build some parts of CLIM-style interface, or maybe interface resembling AutoCAD a bit 08:44:18 -!- pspace [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:48:32 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:49:58 -!- ez27182817 [~evenson@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:12 ez2718 [~evenson@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:51:02 use the nice bits from Qt, but support more keyboard-driven interface 08:52:10 gko [~gko@42.71.224.125] has joined #lisp 08:54:11 they are orthogonal, nothing prevent qt app from having a good keyboard model. You don't have to use Qt's own QKeyAccellerator or such thing, instead you can just override keypressEvent and build modes/keymaps model like emacs 08:54:18 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@mailout.faxonline.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:11 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:56:03 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:56:53 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:39 maxm-: I know. I was thinking more along the lines of how McCLIM got ESA framework etc. 09:03:03 basically, build a library to quickly prototype and refine such interfaces from CL 09:03:19 as well as bits like command parser 09:03:50 (this should be actually separate from Qt-dependant part - would be wonderful for curses/pure terminal/web stuff) 09:06:12 *maxm-* is not familiar with CLIM model, anywhere I can read a nice summary not peppered with convoluted code? 09:08:30 I think that the interesting part of clim is the idea of a commnand loop with presentations. 09:09:12 You can present something and then use that graphical presentation to answer subsequent questions. 09:10:17 e.g., you might present a country as a picture of its geopolitical border. Then you could use that picture to fill in part of a command that wants a country. 09:10:44 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:29 ah so its kind of like slime presentations but with graphical-print-object protocol rather then print-object 09:12:30 I presume that slime was inspired in that regard by clim. 09:12:58 it's a REPL on steroids laced with coke, yes 09:12:58 There's a spec somewhere for clim that should help with the details. 09:13:07 maxm-: like slime presentation on steroids 09:21:59 a bit of that is present in Blender and AutoCAD, i.e. direct manipulation with active use of keyboard 09:30:10 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:02 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:48 jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 09:32:48 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:33:08 -!- 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has joined #lisp 11:52:43 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:27 Will it be offtopic if I ask a question about quicklisp? 11:55:35 Probably, but I don't think anyone will get very angry. 11:57:11 hitecnologys: JFI there's a #quicklisp too, IIRC 11:57:27 Oh, thanks. 11:57:55 there is also #clnoobs and #lispcafe, and you can open your own channel, too. or you can just ask here, where the majority of the common lisp population hangs out. 12:03:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-156-176.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:53 #clnoobs? Damn, I'm out of here. Thats the channel I should be in. 12:04:57 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04:58 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-249.rev.home.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:09:38 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: ] 12:10:22 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:10:46 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:01 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:11:33 terpri [~terpri@196.Red-81-32-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:36 I've read yet another blog post on how #lisp folks are an obnoxious bunch. What's up with that? 12:13:30 It just doesn't match my experience. Maybe I'm one of the obnoxious ones? :-/ 12:14:43 perhaps you're just lucky and/or polite enough ... 12:18:27 Useless people often get short shrift. 12:18:51 Hmm. Must be Zhivago then! :) 12:19:07 If you can read at a 12 year old level and are capable of forming intelligent questions then you should be fine. 12:19:18 zhulikas [Derp@3e6b1d4c.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:19:33 Unfortunately that also puts you in the 95th percentile for internet users. 12:19:41 the only syntax in lisp is parentheses, right? Is it possible to implement a function for adding two numbers? 12:19:44 *lindes* has had some lovely experiences and some annoying ones. *shrug*. True of most places, I guess? 12:20:00 the most basic function (without using built-in + operator) 12:20:01 I'd refer to that as more like punctuation rather than syntax. 12:20:35 more like define the + operator when it didnt exist 12:20:45 Consider the syntax of foo:bar. Or of `(,@x). 12:21:02 zhulikas: http://www.cliki.net/infix 12:21:04 zhulikas: I suppose you could, but you'd have to reimplement numbers too. 12:21:05 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 12:21:53 zhulikas: you could write a reader macro that transposes the first and second element in a list (perhaps in a tree), then you could write (1 + 2) 12:22:08 zhulikas: + is built-in, but it's not an operator. It's a regular function. 12:22:26 flip214: is that what zhulikas is asking for? 12:22:28 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:23:12 luis: I'm just getting used to #lisp ... answering a different question 12:23:43 so how is + implemented? 12:23:58 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 okflo [~okflo@91-115-93-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 Magic. 12:24:09 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 12:24:11 righr 12:24:13 t 12:24:26 zhulikas: you can check out e.g. SBCL's source code. 12:24:36 <|3b|> up to the implementation, probably some combination of compiler magic, assembly routines, and normal functions 12:24:38 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-93-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 12:24:40 But you could implement it somewhat like (defun + (&rest args) (reduce #'cl:+ args)) 12:24:46 Does that help? 12:25:03 okflo [~user@91-115-93-244.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:25:26 ok, thanks :D 12:25:31 zhulikas: + has to deal with various kinds of numbers: complex numbers, floats, bignums, etc, so it's not trivial function. 12:25:41 *a trivial 12:25:49 <|3b|> per the spec, there has to be a full function named cl:+, but the compiler is allowed to compile calls to cl:+ directly to machine opcodes if it knows it is safe to do so 12:25:52 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:21 antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 12:32:57 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.22.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:14 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:38:34 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:41:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:41:57 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 12:42:19 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] 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-!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:38:12 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 wztian_ [~quassel@119.41.24.208] has joined #lisp 13:38:54 -!- wztian [~quassel@li400-235.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:13 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:41:31 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:41:38 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:58 teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has joined #lisp 13:48:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-40.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48:59 zhulikas: i've been doing some research on the + function for the past couple of days and it seems it is implemented in the kernel for clozure common lisp 13:50:25 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 syntex: what do you mean in the kernel? In the C kernel? 13:53:40 yeah, check x86-spentre32.s 13:53:52 oops, x86-spentry32.s 13:54:01 ccl/level-1/l1-numbers.lisp 13:54:59 it checks if the arguments are a fixnum first, if it is then it uses the addl operation right after, else it jumps to code to the type-checking code and sees what it has to do to add 13:55:19 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-246.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:19 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has joined #lisp 13:56:26 ahh,...so i did miss something 13:57:27 you'll want to look at its compiler-macro too. 13:57:34 but that's the actual function definition. 13:57:49 syntex: are you using slime? 13:57:54 no 13:58:12 you really should, if you're doing this sort of browsing. The answer was just a M-. away. 13:58:33 M-. is perfectly happy going deep into the internals of SBCL and CCL :) 13:58:58 im not a emacs fan =/ 13:59:23 syntex: it is never too late to become one 13:59:46 im to comfortable with vim =) 13:59:48 syntex: when you want to hack lisp, emacs will help you a lot. 13:59:50 syntex: emacs fan or not, you may well become a SLIME fan. 14:00:20 sykopomp: emacs or vim you'll have to become a SLIME fan. 14:00:25 and emacs is flexible enough to accomodate a lot of vimmers' needs. 14:00:27 s/sykopomp/syntex/ 14:00:38 Good morning, Lisps. 14:00:44 morning 14:01:20 syntex: And of course you need to have the sources where SLIME can find them. e.g. installed with USE=sources emerge sbcl in Gentoo :) 14:01:34 *USE=source 14:01:48 sometimes I forget how wonderful Lisp is at yielding concise, easy-to-use code. Then I write some Lisp and my heart flutters with joy. 14:02:50 sykopomp: you forgot easily-readable. Because it often contradicts concise but not in the case of Lisp. 14:03:14 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:03:52 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 14:04:20 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:46 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:43 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:07:37 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:53 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 14:08:01 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:12 Are there any implementations of hash tables (or data structures with the same interface as hash tables) that specialize on key types (i.e., a hash table where the keys are always strings, or always integers)? 14:09:45 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:55 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-209-29.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 Quadrescence: I don't know of any available in CL. 14:11:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:11:25 Yeah, specialized hash-table would be a nice addition 14:11:36 some implementations allow arbitrary :test functions for hash tables, though, no? 14:11:38 There's probably some trie code floating around. 14:11:42 sykopomp: yes. 14:12:12 Quadrescence: there is GENHASH 14:12:16 (it's in Quicklisp) 14:12:26 loke: that's not what Quadrescence asked about. 14:14:37 pkhuong: Yeah, I realise that now 14:14:41 (just came back to the computer) 14:15:10 pkhuong: Thanks for the help last night by the way. Now include handling in my template library works significantly better. 14:15:18 Is anyone up for writing specialized maps or will this be my next project? 14:15:52 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 Quadrescence: I'm kind of interested, but lack time. 14:17:25 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:17:34 unfortunately you could write it 5x better than i could 14:17:38 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:05 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 I have a question... Is using a global special variable generally slower than a lexically bound variable in a LET form? 14:20:13 loke: yes. 14:20:40 pkhuong: Ah. So it makes sense to do something like (let ((x *x*)) (loop ... do (foo x))) ? 14:20:48 Quadrescence: djb has interesting opinions on the topic of general-purpose map/set data structures. 14:21:14 loke: i don't think that really makes sense. i think let over lambda had a few lines about it. 14:21:46 loke: barring a very smart compiled and/or lacking support for threads, that's much more likely to let X be allocated in registers or in the activation record. 14:21:47 -!- wztian_ [~quassel@119.41.24.208] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:22:02 pkhuong: right. I thought as much 14:22:03 http://antoszka.pl/lispbox-0.7a.zip <- I updated the windows version a little, this has ccl-1.8 (instead of 1.6) and current quicklisp/slime/swank. Is there a maintainer that would be willing to put it up on the lispbox site? 14:22:04 kanru` [~user@61-228-144-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:05 -!- lindes [~user@i59F7B502.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:22:15 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:19 If there's interest I can also fix the linux and macos versions (hopefully). 14:23:00 wztian [~quassel@li400-235.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:16 pkhuong: i thought lol specified that the reference could be rememebered when the fucntion was entered, so the memory location is known from then on. aside from threading, i don't see why the variable couldn't end up in the registers also. 14:23:45 pkhuong: now, i know you most likely know better, so i'm wondering what i'm missing. 14:24:00 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:28 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:27:21 'morning 14:27:29 o/ 14:27:59 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 There unicode for a figure with its arm raised in greeting, but I don't have a font that renders it. 14:28:59 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:12 ChibaPet: o7 14:29:39 A friend suggested o> as being slightly more correctly proportioned for that one. 14:30:29 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:30:49 Meanwhile, this morning's side project is figuring out how to unhardware the Debian SLIME package's order of preference for which Lisp it launches. 14:33:43 (morning "Fade") 14:35:07 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 14:36:08 drl_ [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 14:36:23 j_king: a string doesn't seem like the best design choice there 14:36:33 (morning 'lisp:j_king) 14:39:05 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 14:40:01 Vipershadow [~ViperShad@c-68-48-140-18.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:28 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 madnificent: it felt a little wierd. just experimenting. ;) 14:43:04 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has joined #lisp 14:44:28 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:44:51 wztian_ [~quassel@119.41.24.208] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 -!- wztian [~quassel@li400-235.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:50 -!- Vipershadow [~ViperShad@c-68-48-140-18.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:51 -!- CrazyEddy [~transvest@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:47:51 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:48:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:49:16 -!- wztian_ [~quassel@119.41.24.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:44 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:34 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has quit [Quit: paul0] 14:59:38 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:13 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-209-29.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-194-201.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:03:53 ozialien_ [~ozi@mbc0436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:17 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:07:10 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:07:54 younder [~john@69.248.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 15:09:57 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:10:07 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:10:20 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:47 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 15:11:35 http://paste.lisp.org/+2S67 15:12:52 Just funlib as it stands. A few functions that I am using. Are any of you actually interested in me developing it more? 15:13:52 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:14:14 I admit I use rapid prototyping and that may main motivation is to explore the functional interface for my own language in progress Formula. 15:14:41 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 Some of the functionality is probaly duplicated in Alexandria. 15:15:43 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:15:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:16:54 Never the less if feel your libs lack some, compared to racket. 15:17:43 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:18:46 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 15:19:33 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit 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[~nitnatsno@37.79.107.244] has joined #lisp 16:06:35 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 16:07:20 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 maucar [~chatzilla@c-76-127-197-39.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:39 younder: fold = reduce 16:08:51 and some more functionality is also duplicated in com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum. 16:09:33 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:09:43 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@37.79.42.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:10:04 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.160.27] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:05 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 16:10:13 -!- maucar [~chatzilla@c-76-127-197-39.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:28 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 pnpuff [~uu@host131-8-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 -!- pnpuff [~uu@host131-8-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:39 pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:11:40 pjb: is there some package out there that's not partially duplicating com.informatigo.common-lisp.something? 16:11:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:12:17 pjb: do you have proper documentation? did you think about changing the name of your package down to cl-cesarum or cl-pjb or something easy on the user? 16:13:18 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698430.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:14:23 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 16:14:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:14:54 -!- segv_ [~mb@i59F7B502.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: segv_] 16:15:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:00 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.130.181] has joined #lisp 16:17:46 dim: leave pjb alone 16:18:08 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:09 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:19:29 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:19:30 dim: he has his reasons for the package naming scheme he uses (portability/correctness). Many find that scheme ugly but pjb's rationale is well founded and well intended. 16:20:01 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:20:23 well to be fair, "CL-CESARUM" isn't any less portable or correct. 16:20:32 gvz [~gvz@78-60-148-153.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 16:21:01 well, caesarum is gpl licensed, so it cannot be used by many anyway. 16:21:01 whenever pjb mentions someting beginning with com.caesarum, i immediately know that i won't use it, so i'm very fine with that visual cue 16:21:01 or com.informatigo or whatever 16:21:06 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-65.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- kanru` [~user@61-228-144-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-246.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- egp_ [~egp_@31.47.183.250] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:06 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- terpri [~terpri@196.Red-81-32-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- arborist [~arborist@f050023233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb119-74-178-124.singnet.com.sg] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-201-170.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:07 -!- jix [~jix@jixco.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:21:11 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-132-242.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:11 -!- ozialien_ is now known as ozialien 16:21:38 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-132-242.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:01 H4ns: I'm not defending pjb's decisions just pointing out that he as his reasons. I would _love_ it if pjb used a BSD/MIT license instead of the current GPL. 16:23:36 irpanech6 [~user@184.66.174.87] has joined #lisp 16:23:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:26:58 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 -!- ozialien is now known as 52AAA20AN 16:31:41 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-65.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 kanru` [~user@61-228-144-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-246.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 egp_ [~egp_@31.47.183.250] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 terpri [~terpri@196.Red-81-32-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 arborist [~arborist@f050023233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 lifeng [~lifeng@bb119-74-178-124.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 ASau [~user@95-24-201-170.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 Patzy [~something@bro29-1-82-245-180-56.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 lnostdal [~Lars@212.79-161-132.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 jix [~jix@jixco.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:14 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 morning 16:35:56 pjb: foldl doesn't accumulate on stack. Folr is equal to reduce. 16:36:11 -!- Fare is now known as Guest11190 16:38:58 mrSpec [~Spec@2001:6d8:10:105d:223:14ff:fe12:c620] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@2001:6d8:10:105d:223:14ff:fe12:c620] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:39:11 (org.xzpeter.game.starwar:run) <------- what is this new dotted symbol name convention with those funky backwards uuid namescope thingies 16:39:19 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:34 The game is kind of ful, although frustratingly hard. :-) 16:39:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:39:47 anyone got a screenshot? 16:39:49 dto, that is ONE name. The convention arbitrary 16:39:54 M-x replace-string RET ful RET fun RET 16:40:06 i didn't know . was okay in symbol names without | | 16:40:14 <|3b|> dto: not exactly 'new', it is a pretty common convention in some other languages 16:40:15 -!- Guest11190 is now known as FareWell 16:40:30 so thats the name of the package? 16:40:38 -!- FareWell is now known as FareTower 16:40:40 dto: . is OK as long as it can't be mistaken for a decimal point 16:40:44 ah. 16:40:46 dto, | | makes it case sensitive 16:40:47 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:40:50 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:41:05 dto: the rules are kind of complicated, but it all boils down to "if it looks like a number, it's a number. Otherwise it's a symbol" 16:41:12 <|3b|> i think the idea is to dump the problem of avoiding namespace conflicts on some 3rd party (the DNS system in this case) 16:41:24 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.216] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 and everyone loves java conventions! 16:42:56 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_cd.htm 16:44:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27123025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:17 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 16:44:25 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:34 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:02 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:58 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 16:49:07 edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:53 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:02 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:53:04 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-136-240-172.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:53:59 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698430.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:23 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:55:09 SplinterOfChaos [~soc@cblmdm24-52-84-142.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:00 Seems like a useful convention. 16:57:23 -!- terpri [~terpri@196.Red-81-32-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:19 If its Javaness is offensive, think of it instead as being inspired by UUCP. 17:00:50 |3b|: except that's just a misleading pun. c.f. DTD URI confusion. 17:01:46 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 17:03:35 ChibaPet: i'm being facetious really .. it's a decent convention, but a good portable package-local nickname solution would help a lot 17:05:08 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:28 -!- kani [kenjin@2002:a398:5444::a398:5444] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:53 (org.xzpeter.game.starwar:run) doesn't work. It breaks on missing sb-threads; why doesn't it use bordeaux-threads? 17:11:32 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 17:11:37 younder: foldl = reduce :from-end t 17:11:50 pjb: you can fork and fix it! it is open source! 17:12:31 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 17:12:50 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 17:13:03 <|3b|> pkhuong: doesn't seem quite as bad as the DTD thing 17:13:13 H4ns: exactly. I'm currently forking objc-bridge from ccl with forcepts. I feel the hate its developer had, and I'm just asking why so much hate? 17:13:16 nha [~prefect@g229105060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:25 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:14:07 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:15:17 Using private symbols, using % symbols! Absolute disrespect for any kind of modularity. It's hiddeous. 17:15:37 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:42 jlf [~user@alumni.EECS.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 -!- jlf [~user@alumni.EECS.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Changing host] 17:18:45 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 17:19:17 and i seem to be missing sdl-ttf or at least that starwar game can't find it... 17:22:22 pjb: ahh, I missed that option 17:22:22 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:44 slyrus_: linux distros have it packaged 17:23:48 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:24:35 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:40 pjb: ahh,still the one I miss the most I miss the most is partion--by and partion 17:25:53 silenius [~silenius@i59F72584.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:16 pjb: foldr* 17:26:25 (right?...) 17:26:37 can't for the life of me figure out how to play this starwar thing 17:27:07 pjb: gone thought the 100 and seen what I need 17:29:35 cmm: there seems to be some spacebar/left mouse button combo involved 17:30:16 try supertuxcart instead. I find it addictive ;) 17:30:21 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qzdydoeddhidvubu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:32:13 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #lisp 17:33:11 the reddish spermatozoid things have just caused a neighbouring whitish circle to become reddish! no idea how that happened 17:33:31 *cmm* goes to do something less frustrating 17:33:35 b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.184] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.184] has quit [Changing host] 17:38:00 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:27 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:19 pnq [~nick@ACA399B9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:18 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:48:31 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 17:49:00 -!- mel0on [~user@h-72-75.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:55 mel0on [~user@h-72-75.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:33 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:57:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:04:24 so what's the easiest way to make lisbuilder-sdl-ttf find libsdl_ttf in /usr/local/lib on darwin? 18:08:25 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-136-240-172.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:09:04 slyrus: Have you installed the framework? 18:09:45 no, I brew installed it 18:10:25 Hm. 18:11:10 So, make sure that the libraries in in the /usr/local/lib. 18:11:53 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-189-164.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:55 if you use quicklist they are under your home directory by default 18:12:53 Xach should be able to give further instrucations, after all, he wrote it 18:12:56 slyrus: I've installed it through the quicklisp and then put the frameworks in /System/Library/Framework. And it works for me. 18:13:20 framework* 18:14:51 Well the most general is home. Then, to avoid fucking up system rpm*s or deb's / usr/local 18:15:36 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 NEVER install under /. Except /home and /usr/local and you will be fine 18:16:12 ack: CFFI::BARE-STRUCT-TYPE-P already names an ordinary function or a macro. 18:16:33 What are you doing in the private parts of CFFI!? 18:17:50 old cffi... never mind. 18:17:53 slyrus_: Now you'll have to marry... it. 18:18:31 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:21:54 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:40 -!- Archenoth [~Archenoth@96.51.223.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:09 -!- b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:31:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.171.95] has joined #lisp 18:31:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.171.95] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:32:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.21.79] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:11 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128101218.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 18:36:16 antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-1177698430.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:37:31 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:38:48 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F72584.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:50 who is responsible for common-lisp.net ? it sucks that they do not allow anymore anonymous login for svn and cvs 18:40:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:02 -!- b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:46 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:42:02 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 pjb: do you not like the % convention of internal packages? 18:43:09 and what is this starwar game, link? 18:43:09 I like it. 18:43:21 What I don't like is code that use functions named %. 18:43:36 When you have code (ccl::%thing ) it ain't good. 18:46:06 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:46:21 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:22 yeah, that seems weird. I've only seen/used it on package names 18:48:01 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:44 saage [~saage@187.52.208.169] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 -!- saage [~saage@187.52.208.169] has quit [Changing host] 18:48:45 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 18:51:25 Guthur: that's funny, I've only seen it used in symbol names (sbcl, ccl internals IIRC) 18:51:34 b3gott3n [~dwhite@184-8-167-106.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:59 alfredo [4b44a51c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.68.165.28] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:54:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:28 I don't like code that does that, but sometimes it's the only way to do what you want. 18:55:39 cl-opengl is a good example that uses %gl for the 'internal' direct FFI bindings package. 18:55:51 I think it works very well for cl-opengl. 18:55:51 sykopomp: that was exactly the example I was going to mention 18:56:02 and it's where I took the inspiration form 18:56:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.21.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:05 from* 18:56:18 %gl package 18:56:22 I haven't seen it outside of ffi bindings, though. 18:56:37 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:56:55 umm yeah 18:57:40 probably less need to have a complete internal package outside of bindings 18:57:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:58:27 -!- irpanech6 [~user@184.66.174.87] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:58:46 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:02:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:04:08 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 19:04:09 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:12:01 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:16:02 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:06 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-ekdmgiunozaeliqg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:15 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-dxxxwnzkleyzaxkm] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:26:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:29:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-65.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31:55 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:33:41 Guthur: it's also useful for package trickery, like foo:cl-symbol. Instead of shadowing, you can move the implementation to foo.impl. 19:48:06 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:48:13 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:12 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@66-72-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:58 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA399B9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:53 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-92-114.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:01:27 Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-93-80.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:27 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-93-80.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:01:27 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:06:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:36 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-225-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:44 -!- FareTower [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:30 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-236-70.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:13:05 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@66-72-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 20:17:26 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:59 fe[nl]ix: Therep? 20:19:51 yes 20:20:14 I was looking at your Bordeaux-Threads release. Is it really tested on ACL 8-point-zero? 20:20:55 That's pretty ancient, if so. 8.2 is really two very major releases ahead of that. 20:21:44 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 20:22:00 I don't test on Allegro or Lispworks, I count on you people to send patches :) 20:22:02 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:38 Does "tested" here correspond to a test suite? If so, I could try it out on 8.2. 20:23:19 there's a test suite, try it 20:23:29 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:23:41 actually, *all* of those test results are ancient, now that I think of it. Does Anton V run these? 20:23:57 you mean the suff on the webpage ? 20:24:08 He probably has better data than what's on http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ 20:24:11 Yes. 20:24:31 right, I don't think I've ever updated that table 20:25:00 hahaha, sbcl 0.9.13 20:25:34 I can try to run a bunch of tests, if you don't have results from Anton, since I run lots of tests for ASDF. 20:26:24 cool 20:26:45 Maybe I can adapt the scripts from ASDF.... 20:26:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:26:55 send the new able to the mailing list 20:27:30 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 *table 20:28:26 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:28:42 OK, I will see what I can get done. The alligators are getting up to my chin by now --- they are well past my butt... 20:31:09 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has quit [Quit: paul0] 20:32:38 saschakb1 [~saschakb@p4FEA08DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:29 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0E10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:36:32 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:01 fe[nl]ix: have you looked at Anton's table? 20:38:29 no 20:40:06 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:08 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.88.219] has joined #lisp 20:41:28 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:21 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-189-164.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 20:45:23 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:48:53 -!- pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: pnpuff] 20:49:33 francogrex [~user@109.130.21.79] has joined #lisp 20:49:41 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:56 fe[nl]ix: I'd recommend it --- he has data on a lot of runs of all the tests he could get his hands on, in the context of quicklisp. 20:51:46 right now, I'm not sure what to do with them 20:51:48 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:08 it would be nice if he wrote an automatic mailer 20:52:41 so that a few hours after I commit, a message gets send to -devel@common-lisp.net that I broke LW 6 20:52:42 I think he has been filing some launchpad bugs, but doing that comprehensively would be a huge amount of effort. 20:53:01 Also, he doesn't run based on commits to the repos, only on quicklisp releases. 20:53:14 see, that's already too late 20:53:29 this is another cool idea for a kickstarter 20:53:38 I'd pay for it 20:54:42 I think there are a number of problems with that like "if I am doing this based on your development version, what library versions do I use?" and "how do I get my volunteers to run at that level of granularity?" 20:54:45 bru` [~bruno`@ras75-3-82-226-220-53.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:56 It's probably hard enough for him to get us all to run the tests once/quicklisp release.... 20:54:58 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:23 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:55:47 rpg: My understanding is that it'll eventually be usable to test locally _before_ you commit. Won't get you complete coverage, but better than having to manually run your tests in every Lisp. 20:56:48 sellout: Makes sense. Still might be very difficult to configure properly (e.g., I rely on a bleeding edge library version to make my library work. what happens if quicklisp doesn't have the dependency in the version I need, etc.). 20:57:20 Yeah, I agree. But a step in the right direction. 20:58:15 -!- edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Out of lifetime] 21:02:01 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.21.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:19 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.88.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:12 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:05:25 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:06:00 limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:42 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.10] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:10:43 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has joined #lisp 21:11:26 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:25 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:12:25 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:16:15 snarkyjack [~snarkyjac@173.221.185.2.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:03 -!- snarkyjack [~snarkyjac@173.221.185.2.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:05 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has quit [Quit: paul0] 21:18:13 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:24:36 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:19 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 21:26:43 So I have a bunch of data that is XML-ish (i.e. a bunch of stuff enclosed in stuff, but no DTD to validate against) and I'd just like to read it into a tree, what should I use? 21:34:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:37 cxml-stp 21:35:26 hmm cxml by itself crashed sbcl 21:35:54 it what (: 21:36:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:38:02 antifuchs: heap exhaustion while performing a GC 21:38:13 Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 0 bytes available, 64 requested. 21:38:30 huh, sounds like you have a ton of data in there (: 21:38:43 did you use the DOM parser for that? 21:38:49 yeah 21:38:57 I'd suggest trying cxml's klacks 21:39:00 stp crashed it too 21:39:10 stp uses the DOM too 21:39:19 basically, snarfs everything into RAM 21:39:29 klacks is both fast and more memory-friendly, I think 21:39:29 it should fit in ram just fine 21:39:46 how large is the source file? 21:39:52 python's ElementTree did it just fine with only a little over 2gb of RAM usage 21:40:05 240MB 21:40:16 no clue how many strings and hash-tables cxml makes duplicates of (: 21:40:37 but that's on the order of heap-exhausty mem usage 21:40:43 are you on x86 or x86-64? 21:40:47 x86-64 21:40:55 hm, then it's probably a lot 21:41:13 try cxml's klacks. should be way better 21:42:18 and then just manually build the tree from that? 21:42:31 yeah 21:44:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:40 jasom: check the value of dynamic-space-size. The default has been substantially lowered a couple months ago. 21:46:47 ooh, yeah that is small 21:48:29 sweet, s-xml parses it in about 10s 21:49:08 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:49:08 -!- egp_ [~egp_@31.47.183.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:33 and so does cxlm 21:49:36 cxml even 21:50:56 jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 21:52:07 well under 2GB in memory usage too 21:54:31 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 21:54:44 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@166.137.82.73] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:01:01 Does anyone have a clear recommendation for how to choose one of the "docstrings -> HTML" libraries? It seems like there are a boatload of these... 22:02:00 write your own :-) 22:03:20 tcr: Yes, that seems to have been the recipe for generating the current unruly horde. 22:03:30 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 22:03:45 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 22:03:45 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 22:03:46 -!- alfredo [4b44a51c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.68.165.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:04:14 create one lib to invoke them and in the image bind them 22:04:26 egp_ [~egp_@188.168.155.210] has joined #lisp 22:05:52 what is the best way to debug "memory fault at 0" with the same PC under sbcl? 22:06:22 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@166.137.82.73] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:06:26 -!- saschakb1 [~saschakb@p4FEA08DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:34 happens when I'm stress testing my live updating stuff, and also happens when wrapping it into (sb-ext::without-gcing ...test...) 22:06:48 my code is compiled with debug3 safety 3 22:07:19 ozialien_ [~ozi@md50436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:35 *rpg* wishes he could remember who wrote the rant about not contributing YA 70% solution library. Olin Shivers? 22:09:08 I think Xach either linked or wrote one such thing 22:09:19 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:52 -!- 52AAA20AN [~ozi@mbc0436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:28 rpg: Olin Shivers, on regexes in scheme, iirc. 22:10:41 ahh, that. yes. 22:11:46 pkhuong: Thanks. I always think of that when I consider the question of how to auto-extract documentation from a library. 22:11:57 (or what test library to use) 22:12:22 pnq [~nick@ACA342B8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:29 yes. Unfortunately, I find that the remaining 20% harder and harder to justify as I grow older (: 22:14:11 maxm-: got foreign code? 22:14:39 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.49.181] has joined #lisp 22:14:43 pkhuong: tons, but usually I get the debugger even when foreign code hits sigsegv 22:15:01 pkhuong: it looks like null pointer deref, but debugger does not popup, and $pc is always same 22:15:22 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@137.164.119.50] has joined #lisp 22:15:34 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:15:48 *maxm-* has to reflesh on his gdb, I used to remember command that shows map of the address space 22:16:01 rpg: are there not a few decent solutions for testing now? 22:16:02 leth` [~user@host-95-199-8-183.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:18 Guthur: Yes, there are probably a few too many such solutions. 22:16:46 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:17:02 I suppose if something is compellingly good it will naturally go to the top 22:17:07 somewhat like quicklisp 22:17:12 A challenge with these libraries is that by the time you find that the corner case you want fits into their un-covered 30% you are already too committed. 22:17:23 Guthur: No. 22:17:33 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:36 Probably because the barrier to entry (unlike with quicklisp) is too low. 22:17:45 rpg: the documentation of named-readtables and sequence-iterators is pretty much 100% autogenerated 22:17:57 You can write a crap doc-generator or test library in an afternoon. 22:18:04 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:18:08 but the software to generate is half-baked based on document-template 22:18:16 You want the library that wasn't finished in an afternoon. 22:18:41 hmm in fact I think this is the new slime 22:18:43 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:45 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:48 tcr: Yes, we have a forked document-template, too.... I can probably use that. But IIRC document-template doesn't react well to repeated runnings on the same library. 22:19:01 I don't run any of my code at all, just the qt-repl-integration 22:19:12 rpg: I agree with what you're saying, but even with quicklisp there was many other alternatives as well, but some how quicklisp seems to have provided the nicest user interface of all 22:19:14 then do (sleep 10) and C-c C-c, and I get memory corruption 22:19:31 and has gained wide acceptance 22:19:46 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:19:48 but I suppose there is less chance for obscure edge cases in that arena 22:19:53 rpg: Yeah, document-template just produced a template to be hand-edited. I just used its code as a base to get something so you can do (document-system :) and get beautiful ready-made documents. :-) 22:20:04 http://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/ 22:20:11 Guthur: The user interface isn't the only thing: it's also that Xach did an incredible amount of work to make QL work better than its predecessor (ASDF-INSTALL). ASDF-INSTALL was more anarchic, but worked less well. 22:20:26 tcr: you have to hand-edit after generation? ouch 22:20:43 oGMo: show me good documents that aren't hand-edited. 22:20:50 pkhuong: _after generation_ 22:20:55 tcr: I have been hoping that there would be a library that would do the docstring extraction gracefully combined with incorporating hand-written introductory text. 22:21:04 Guthur: quicklisp had the advantage that it actually worked. asdf-install worked more than half the time, but far less than 100% of the time for me 22:21:07 of course you hand-edit documents, but all that should be done pre-gen so you can regen with zero effort 22:21:21 rpg: I put the introductionary test in the docstring of the DEFPACKAGE. :-) 22:21:28 quicklisp actually works because Xach works very hard to make it work... 22:21:31 *Quadrescence* has been interested in literate programming in lisp 22:21:38 I was also include clbuild, though it was not an in image system installed 22:21:39 rpg: check my afternoon hack, cl-gendoc :p https://github.com/rpav/cl-gendoc 22:21:42 installer* 22:21:46 oGMo: you should see the stuff we do to avoid ugly line lengths in papers, even with latex. 22:21:50 I think there was some other solution as well 22:21:57 rpg: i actually wrote it because i couldn't find anything that did just that, which is silly, because it's trivial 22:22:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.154.68.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:22:44 rpg: and yes my default css sucks, but i'll take patches :p 22:23:52 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:24:59 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-16-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:51 -!- SplinterOfChaos [~soc@cblmdm24-52-84-142.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:28:11 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:51 deego [~user@unaffiliated/deego] has joined #lisp 22:30:09 -!- nha [~prefect@g229105060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:17 -!- egp_ [~egp_@188.168.155.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:32:18 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@137.164.119.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37:01 first thing first, got to upgrade to latest sbcl, enable the ud-2 thing etc... 22:37:34 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:38:56 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:39:25 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:40:40 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:02 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 22:44:22 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:46:16 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-205-118.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 egp_ [~egp_@188.168.19.107] has joined #lisp 22:46:48 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120423130206]] 22:49:27 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:50:36 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:52:29 irpanech6 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 22:54:56 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:13 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:33 -!- gvz [~gvz@78-60-148-153.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59:06 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:59:37 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.107.244] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:04:33 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:06:49 jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has joined #lisp 23:11:02 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:12:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:13:33 -!- egp_ [~egp_@188.168.19.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:07 Why do implementation libraries not define unwind-protect such that cleanup-forms cannot be interrupted? 23:15:36 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:55 probably because it's unclear what should happen 23:16:19 egp_ [~egp_@141.105.51.104] has joined #lisp 23:16:29 sykopomp: "implementation libraries"? 23:16:35 -!- egp_ [~egp_@141.105.51.104] has quit [Client Quit] 23:16:53 egp_ [~egp_@141.105.51.104] has joined #lisp 23:17:25 Hm. Correction. This applies to SBCL. I made assumptions. :) 23:17:54 CCL says it wraps cleanup-forms in without-interrupts, so that's safe. 23:18:09 *sykopomp* wonders what other implementations do. 23:19:17 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.146.198.135] has joined #lisp 23:20:17 wakeup [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-185-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:20:19 hi all 23:20:59 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:21:00 I have a question about the special from THE: is it supposed to be used to give optimization hints for the compiler? 23:21:11 I can't think of any other use 23:22:01 it's pretty much that, I think 23:22:26 you can also generate a couple of nice type conflicts with it on sbcl in buggy code, I guess (: 23:24:19 -!- arborist [~arborist@f050023233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:29 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 23:25:32 -!- egp_ [~egp_@141.105.51.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:26:24 sykopomp: because there's no way to get that one right. 23:26:50 sykopomp: tell me how you block segv sanely. 23:28:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA342B8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:29:08 I don't know, but would wrapping cleanup-forms with without-interrupts hurt? It would at least help a bit -- segfaulting is kind of an extreme case. 23:29:24 What about protection from regular old user non-local exits? 23:30:25 what'd happen then? The thread craps out " sorry, dave, can't let you unwind out of an unwind"? 23:31:02 without-interrupts is a big hammer; very good at making programs unresponsive. 23:32:23 egp_ [~egp_@188.168.20.166] has joined #lisp 23:32:41 Indeed. 23:33:41 Maybe there should be an 'ask nicely' kind of interrupt, and a 'forceful' one, for applications that wish to use interrupts. 23:34:23 that's called polling. 23:36:47 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-215.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:24 arborist [~arborist@f050023233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:08 -!- Psyclonic [~psyclone@97-120-216-109.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:31 -!- leth` [~user@host-95-199-8-183.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Quit: time to sleep] 23:50:24 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.132.133.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:52:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.143.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:52:43 there is something seriously wrong with damn sbcl 23:53:18 maxm-: yeah it's so fast that i never get to take a break 23:53:19 I compiled tip, just compiling my system, got me stack exhausted when compiling stefil, followed by memory corruption errors 23:53:20 there is something wrong with the windows port too! kilobytes are leaking out the wazoo 23:53:27 before any of my files even loaded 23:53:54 Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:95eb:a47f:ef70:b945] has joined #lisp 23:55:35 maxm-: can you reproduce on another computer? what happens if you disable init files? 23:55:51 how about *not* using HEAD? 23:56:24 the number of places I'd look before blaming the implementation is pretty high. 23:56:30 pkhuong: have not tried yet, trying to reproduce my problem, now instead of error I'm getting into ldb with gc invariant lost 23:57:15 if you can't reproduce on another machine, I'll blame not using ECC RAM. 23:57:43 ikki [~ikki@201.132.133.94] has joined #lisp 23:58:18 *maxm-* has ecc ram and machine check thingy too that counts number of errors fixed 23:58:27 -!- ozialien_ [~ozi@md50436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: ozialien_] 23:58:41 http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/google-blockly/ two things about this. 1. they misspell Blockly as Blocky consistently 2. quotes from Neil Fraser saying that programming is progressing toward natural language and you'll be just able to tell the computer what to do, and he presents Blockly as the next step in line of improved programming interfaces even though it does not look or act like natural language