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01:08:53 -!- dnolen [~user@142.131.228.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:55 Yes. 01:12:58 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 01:13:13 springz [~springz@118.143.64.134] has joined #lisp 01:14:32 pjb: fails here: open-network-stream: make client process failed: connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, localhost, :service, 5000, :nowait, nil 01:14:51 with ; SLIME 2012-05-25 01:15:16 leo2007: you must start the server. 01:15:32 (swank:create-server :port 4005) 01:15:50 or (swank:create-server :port 5000) 01:16:21 pjb: yes very much so, I have another emacs connected to it. 01:16:40 Now, I don't know if the server accepts only one connection at a time or not, but if not, you can always create several servers on different ports. 01:17:30 pjb: I see. 01:18:00 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:22:07 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 01:26:17 -!- Zeedox [DanDan@h-140-21.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:26:24 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:26:56 hello 01:27:37 I several times heard that destructive modifications of list literals like '(1 2 3) is not correct 01:28:18 antov: that's correct :) 01:28:24 -!- springz [~springz@118.143.64.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:02 I would appreciate a pointer where it is said in CLHS 01:29:32 CLHS has example: (setq x '(a b c)) => (A B C) (setq y '(d e f)) => (D E F) (nconc x y) => (A B C D E F) 01:29:40 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_nconc.htm 01:30:08 isn't it a desctructive modification of quoted list literals? 01:30:48 DataLinkDroid: what is correct - modifications, or the statement that the modifications are bad? 01:32:01 antonv: modifications of literals is to be avoided. Bad Things may happen :) 01:32:40 as to the hows and whys, someone else will have to answer that 01:34:16 i believe the consequences are undefined 01:34:57 found the link in CLHS (http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/s_quote.htm) 01:35:56 I can assume why (for compiler to be able to place them into read-only memorey area, or reuse) 01:36:30 the example CLHS gives for nconc is a bit wrong then 01:37:23 antonv: seems so. i wouldn't nconc literals 01:39:24 Zeedox [DanDan@h-200-139.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 01:42:16 eveing 01:42:20 evening 01:44:49 t7 [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:45:56 fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has joined #lisp 01:47:56 <_death> antonv, http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications <- find NCONC on that page 01:48:33 -!- _death is now known as adeht 01:49:44 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:38 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:52:00 adeht: thanks 01:52:18 yello slyrus 01:52:51 pnq [~nick@ACA220DF.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:32 what does he mean by "nconc space complexity class also is no better than APPEND"? 01:55:09 -!- Zeedox [DanDan@h-200-139.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:27 antonv: that para contains some surprising anonymous statements which seem incorrect to me on the face of it 01:58:06 yes, nconc seems to not need to allocate any new memory 01:58:21 it's the whole point of it 01:58:25 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 01:59:20 ah 01:59:21 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:00:14 "NCONC space complexity class also is no better than APPEND in the common case where no one else is sharing the side-effected list" 02:00:55 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:01:10 brunocoelho [~brunocoel@177.133.122.199] has joined #lisp 02:01:14 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 02:01:34 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128050201.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:01:38 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-lpklelxnutmnxclj] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 02:01:53 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-rbplhitdooezbefa] has joined #lisp 02:01:56 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:02:03 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has joined #lisp 02:02:41 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:23 -!- aperture [~aperture@ninthfloor.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:48 he means that when the lists passed to APPEND are not shared, then APPEND need no more memory than NCONC - append in allocates new memory, but releases the old memory at the same time in this case (I dont think compilers are smart enought to allow APPEND to rewrite this list if it detects it is unused) 02:03:48 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:04:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:04:08 antonv: seems like mumbo jumbo 02:04:24 re the quotation, not your comment 02:04:41 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 02:04:42 yyes append might be optimised like that 02:04:44 or it might not 02:05:39 antonv: the examples in CLHS are not normative: they can be wrong :-) 02:05:55 ok 02:06:48 almost tempted to switch to append, but I am greedy, will use nconc anyway 02:07:20 antonv: "NCONC space complexity class also is no better than APPEND in the common case where no one else is sharing the side-effected list" means that O(n)=O(2n). 02:07:40 Ie. it's a definitional truism. 02:09:00 ok, no I know what definitial truism is 02:09:03 now 02:09:24 and so it's deceptive, since many will interpret it to mean that he is saying 2N is as good as N 02:09:55 Which is true, in complexity analysis. 02:10:10 ^ asymptotical 02:10:29 pjb: why n / 2n 02:10:35 shwouchkie [~shwouchk@bzq-82-81-27-209.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:42 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:10:58 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has joined #lisp 02:11:25 he just means that append does not allocate new memory in case if the list is not shared (i.e. it allocates exactly same amount as released to GC) 02:11:26 It's not exactly 2n since append only copies the butlast arguments. 02:11:34 No. 02:11:52 It means that append copies on the same order of total sum of length cons cells. 02:12:14 but as I understand nconc copies nothing 02:12:20 correct. 02:12:49 -!- fantasticsid [~user@178.18.16.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:12:56 So it's wrong, nconc is O(1) space, and append is O(n) space. 02:13:40 yes, but if the list is not shared, new it is released to GC, so in total the memory consumption remains constant 02:14:10 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:12 *old list is released to GC 02:14:20 Well, yes but then it's append+gc vs nconc+gc, not append vs nconc. 02:14:41 If you got his way, at the end of your program, it's always O(0) 02:14:47 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 02:15:03 append+gc vs nconc you mean I think 02:15:04 pjb: lol 02:15:06 )))) 02:15:09 ozialien__ [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:21 in the end it is )) 02:17:28 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:17:50 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-103.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:59 pjb: there is also theory that smart dataflow analisys may allow append to reuse the old list and not allocate any memory, if it knows the list is not shared with anyone 02:18:01 Good morning 02:18:05 -!- ozialien__ [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:17 or afternoon, or evening 02:18:37 bingo. afternoon :) 02:19:01 I heard about the Boston Lisp meetings 02:19:04 I am jealous 02:19:17 I don't think so: "append returns a new list". I think it must make a copy. Only (eq (append one) one) is allowed AFAIK. 02:19:25 looks like you missed shooting the breeze with rms 02:19:35 shooting the breeze...? 02:19:46 talking with 02:19:56 ah 02:20:00 yeah 02:20:17 I live on the other side of the country, and I'm a mere student 02:20:36 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:38 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:22:32 so I couldn't be there. I'm also jealous of Boston, for having a large concentration of Lispers 02:22:46 Move over! 02:22:49 pjb: (eq (append list) list) is not the case of "not shared list", 02:22:50 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-175-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:23:04 pjb: That would be easier if I were not in university 02:23:29 pjb: it should allow to reuse the list only when the old list is never used afterwards 02:23:44 pjb: it's like in-place GC 02:23:48 It should return a new list. 02:23:58 allowing a reuse is not what's specified. 02:24:16 I don't say that a compiler may not do that, if it can prove that doesn't change the semantics of what's specified. 02:24:23 pjb: it's new. just was build from the memory that was just released from the old list 02:24:41 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 02:24:48 What are we arguing about? 02:24:55 antonv: all right. 02:24:58 ok 02:24:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-8-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:25:10 Cosman246: nothing... 02:25:25 antonv: now the only problem is that it requires a ssc. 02:25:41 -!- ozialien_ [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:25:45 pjb: scc? 02:25:54 sufficiently smart compiler. 02:26:04 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:26:18 and it doesn't apply on literal lists, so it has to know where the input lists come, and where they go 02:26:38 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-183-246.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:54 I wonder; how many people here live reasonably close to Seattle? 02:27:07 (append '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) cannot modify (1 2 3), just because it may be allocated in ROM. 02:27:11 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 02:27:50 pjb: yes, i do not expect compilers existing today to have optimizations like this 02:28:37 I think we've spend more time.money discussing it than would ever be recovered by thus an optimization. 02:29:21 pjb: happens often 02:30:10 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-8-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:47 pjb: althoug I don't consider this a waste :) 02:32:40 -!- Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-51-103.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has left #lisp 02:32:53 gko [~gko@42.71.178.39] has joined #lisp 02:36:47 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 02:36:49 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 02:36:49 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 02:37:08 -!- zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:35 zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 02:44:12 antonv, hi - any news re: sbcl windows merge? 02:45:26 Fare: haven't heard any news (I am anton vodonosov btw, sbcl windows branch is maintained by different anton - anton kovalenko) 02:45:59 oops, sorry 02:46:03 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:46:05 Fare: sbcl developers whated to split it into smaller commits; still splitting I suppose 02:48:10 good version control history is good, but it may happen it will never pay off the efforst spend 02:48:36 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 02:49:27 pjb: it's another case of spending/payoff reate ) 02:50:05 *rate 02:51:44 Indeed, I almost never check the history. 02:51:54 Perhaps it's something project managers do? 02:53:00 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 02:53:23 -!- brunocoelho [~brunocoel@177.133.122.199] has left #lisp 02:53:58 if it works and doesn't break stuff, why care so much? 02:53:59 It's what you do when things get screwed up. 02:54:21 run tests against the branch; the tests succeed; merge. 02:54:40 History becomes more useful as you get more authors with less interaction. 02:54:48 -!- lebro [~xmike@ool-18bab4b8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:54:55 Probably. 02:57:31 A bit like unit tests, really. 02:59:54 mofaph [~user@183.17.203.122] has joined #lisp 02:59:56 -!- Guest14256 is now known as dnm 03:00:14 bye. 6 am - time to sleep... 03:01:11 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:03:00 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A034.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:23 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BBDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:07:30 bokuk [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 03:08:35 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:09:11 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:59 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-rbplhitdooezbefa] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 03:10:05 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:10:52 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-ybsassxdpaxljtfc] has joined #lisp 03:11:08 -!- bokuk1 [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:12:02 -!- mofaph [~user@183.17.203.122] has left #lisp 03:16:42 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA220DF.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:22:09 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xqiwfkwtzctihgay] has joined #lisp 03:26:48 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:29:18 yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:52 ok, now this is lame. The CLHS defines "lexical closure" using the same term, "lexical closure." Bah! 03:33:27 it is easily repaired, however, by substituting "lexical closure" with "function". 03:33:38 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#lexical_closure 03:33:48 but lexical closures are not functions. 03:34:00 The same function can have several lexical closures. 03:34:07 well then the definition should be reworded 03:34:22 "lexical closure n. a _function_ ..." 03:34:42 that 03:35:25 pjb: whatever attributes the function may have, is it still not a function? 03:35:40 Yes, it is. 03:35:40 is it not still a function, rather 03:37:55 pjb: i meant to substitute the _second_ instance of "lexical closure" with "function" - of course not the first that is at the head of the definition 03:38:30 you could replace it by "it", but it would be less clear. 03:38:38 The function is created at compilation time. 03:38:45 The lexical closure is created at run time. 03:38:52 You cannot exchange them! 03:40:38 pjb: then i'd say the definition is broken. 03:40:55 it is not circular. 03:41:19 lol 03:41:24 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 03:41:24 It doesn't define the lexical closure in term of the lexical closure. It defines it in terms of the time of creation of lexical closure. This is perfectly sound! 03:43:31 as an aside, can a function that takes no arguments be a lexical closure? 03:43:40 Yes. 03:44:01 You didn't read the definition. Try again. 03:44:06 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@27.39.149.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:58 (mapcar 'funcall (let ((cs '())) (dotimes (i 4 cs) (let ((i i)) (push (lambda () i) cs))))) => (3 2 1 0) 03:46:22 There's a single function compiled at compilation time: (lambda () i) 03:46:48 it is in a lexical environment where i is bound to some value. 03:47:17 At the time of the creation of each lexical clozure, i is bound to 0, then 1, then 2, then 3. 03:47:23 Thus four closures are created. 03:47:48 well, i suppose i'm just too stupid for your definitions and language. 03:48:15 because it makes no sense to me to define "x as a certain type of y" and then say "x's are not ys" 03:48:17 You may read not the clhs, but something else. There are tutorials, books, etc. 03:48:23 circular 03:48:27 i am reading pcl 03:48:31 i came here for clarification 03:48:36 here being clhs 03:48:44 typical 03:49:29 What I meant was "but lexical closures are not JUST functions.". 03:49:31 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:35 "A fubongous is a type of North American pig that, when penned in the state of Texas, fetches newspapers" 03:49:40 But I'm not the CLHS. 03:49:40 but a fubongous is not a pig? 03:49:53 but a fubongous is not JUST a pig? 03:50:04 i don't recall saying it was JUST a function. 03:50:42 No, you said: "<05:33:27> it is easily repaired, however, by substituting "lexical closure" with "function"." 03:50:57 But this is wrong. Doing this substition would break the definition, as I explained above. 03:50:58 "A fubongous is a type of North American pig that, when penned in the state of Texas, fetches newspapers, and in which the pig is three legged" 03:51:28 basic common sense and good writing makes the second reference to "pig" meaning the "fubongous pig" 03:51:59 context 03:52:15 at least that's the way i think and i was taught. 03:52:21 It's clear to say the fubongous is penned in the state of Texas at one time than the function is penned. 03:52:23 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:52:24 /g 17 03:53:42 *yates* chuckles at getting folks here to talk about the mythical fubongous pig 03:53:58 The underlying problem is saying "lexical closure" rather than "a function with lexical closure". 03:55:49 Zhivago: In the English that I speak and write, it would be understood that the second reference to "function" refers to the lexical closure function that is being defined, and it would avoid what at least seems circular. Granted perhaps this is being a bit over-critical of the grammar and/or style. 03:56:33 it would be understood because of the context. imo. 03:57:10 but i gotta tell you, definitions and meanings are tripping me up in this language quite regularly, so perhaps it's not just being nit-picky... 03:59:00 yates: The important point is to understand that you are talking about functions in both cases; but in one case the function has the additional property of lexical closure. 03:59:03 yates: this is not a novel. This is a standard specification. 03:59:24 It's not as bad as when people confuse 'hash' with 'hash-table', but it's in a similar vein. 03:59:24 it is not written in English, it's written in a more formal language (even if not enough formal IMO). 04:09:43 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 04:10:48 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:14:59 -!- ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:16:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:17:23 -!- zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:19:01 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:14 zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has joined #lisp 04:24:29 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:25:35 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.14] has joined #lisp 04:25:35 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.14] has quit [Changing host] 04:25:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:25:36 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 04:27:59 -!- t7 is now known as lusory 04:29:18 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1F7C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:31:03 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:32 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:33:05 pnq [~nick@ACA325D3.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:28 -!- NNshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:41:28 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:41:43 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 04:45:07 ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:57 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:16 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:19 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:51:08 *Fare* is plagued by low-level bugs and implementation issues, when I'd like to just program high-level stuff. 04:51:17 -!- ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ozialien] 04:51:26 phao [phao@187.1.227.47] has joined #lisp 04:51:44 is there any statically typed lisp "variation" (dialect, I think is what it's called) /? 04:52:41 -!- zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:58 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 04:53:50 prescheme might be closer to what you're thinking of 04:54:40 Qi has optional static typing. not sure if you can call it Lisp. 04:55:33 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 04:55:34 th 04:55:34 phao: plenty of them 04:55:36 thx 04:55:44 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 04:55:49 racket has a nice and actively maintained typed scheme variant 04:55:58 maybe Typed Racket 04:56:09 see Fare's comment :) 04:56:16 in the CL community, Qi / Shen has a type system and is somewhat maintained 04:56:41 there are plenty others, but these are the only two I know that are actively maintained. 04:57:29 or if you count compiler-internal "soft typing" as such, then CMUCL, SBCL, Chez Scheme, Clojure, and many more have such typed systems. 04:59:23 personally, i can't see how you can have code-is-data while requiring static typing. 05:00:37 uh? Plenty of languages have that. 05:01:46 I mean, not only do ML, Haskell and other such languages have their compilers bootstrapped in themselves, these days they also have "macro" kind of facilities 05:02:19 it's just that the evaluator needs to validate your data before you accept it as code. 05:02:38 tiglog [~topeak@123.114.120.244] has joined #lisp 05:02:46 or have some super extra staging-enabled type system for embedded code 05:03:22 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:33 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-249.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:06:17 -!- lusory [~bart@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:07:19 lusory [~lusory@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 05:11:42 perhaps i should say that static typing, like irregular syntax, greatly increases complexity, to the point that the benefits of homoiconicity and true macro abilities are compromised 05:11:54 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zqawktdbmqslqlnh] has joined #lisp 05:16:37 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:18:30 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:18:45 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 05:19:38 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:55 ezakimak [~nick@69.9.62.212] has joined #lisp 05:20:03 -!- mal__ [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 05:20:10 abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 05:26:52 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:27:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:27:44 lusory [~lusory@bb115-66-195-54.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 05:31:34 Fare: I think that you're using "soft typing" in a DataLinkDroid 05:31:39 bah 05:31:48 ... in a very irregular way. 05:32:00 There's a specific meaning for that... 05:32:26 hi eli 05:32:29 how are you? 05:32:35 you should be sleeping. 05:32:37 Reasonable... 05:32:48 any colleague to denounce as BLM speaker? 05:32:50 You're the one who should be sleeping, no? 05:32:55 Not really... 05:33:00 my daughter makes sure I won't 05:33:05 :) 05:34:09 DataLinkDroid: That statement is bogus on all fronts -- both static typing and non-sexpr syntax are not in any kind of contradiction with macros. 05:35:10 *DataLinkDroid* looks over to see strawman lying broken in the corner of the room 05:35:55 DataLinkDroid: Feel free to provide concrete evidence. 05:36:18 As Fare said, there *are* concrete counter examples. 05:36:40 hey Fare and friends 05:37:12 i'mbusy working and it doesn't bother me if you have a different opinion :) feel free to do macro programming in C# ;-) 05:37:31 hi dto. what's new in lisp gaming? 05:38:30 DataLinkDroid: That is not an opinion: OCaml, for example, has CamlP4 -- the syntax is very much part of the language, it enjoys the benefits of this, and it's a statically typed language. 05:39:12 You could say that it is indeed more complicated, but that's not new, since it applies for any statically typed language and the amount of fiddling you need to do with the type system. 05:39:18 benny [~benny@i577A75B4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:39:24 DataLinkDroid: i dunno. i'll probably release a game later this year 05:39:42 camlp4 is broken, and i didn't say you can't have irregular syntax with macros 05:39:58 dto: looking for a speaker in june. 05:40:06 dto: cool! hope i have time to try it :) 05:40:14 well, clojure is statically typed, in a way 05:40:19 Fare: cool, any candidates? 05:40:59 camlp4 and whichever popular haskell preprocessors are just popular examples of code-as-data in statically typed languages. 05:41:04 DataLinkDroid: How is it broken? 05:41:06 dto: you? 05:41:16 DataLinkDroid: i'm still working on my visual programming stuff, but it's not quite ready so i am polishing up the game engine and editor, which is good. 05:41:41 I was trying to get Kalman Reti to speak about the symbolics lisp machines, but I can't get ahold of him by email 05:41:57 I'm now exploring other options 05:41:59 Fare: hmm. 05:42:07 let me think a second. 05:42:10 what part of june 05:42:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:42:21 the transit of venus is on the 5th, so that evening is out :) 05:44:05 *DataLinkDroid* tries to remember what's wrong with camlp4 05:44:19 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 05:44:33 Let me see what a statically typed cons cell could be? 05:44:44 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 05:45:10 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-betajyioyjhfsorz] has joined #lisp 05:45:28 pjb: C struct? :) 05:45:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:45:55 you can also abuse haskell's type system to get compile-time evaluatio 05:45:59 *evalution 05:46:01 late june 05:46:25 Fare: ok, i'll do it. 05:46:27 p_l: to a point. Other haskell variants are more powerful that way 05:46:32 pjb: Haskell has statically typed cons cells :) 05:46:39 Fare: where will it be held? 05:46:43 (let ((p (cons integer (cons string (cons keyword null))) '(1 "Un" :one))) (setf (car p) 1.0) #|outch|# (setf p (list #| outch |# )) ) 05:46:46 dto: MIT, I suppose 05:46:54 p_l: and Haskell is so strong on list processing 05:47:08 pjb: the original standard is 05:47:20 teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has joined #lisp 05:47:43 Fare: assuming i get an hour, i can cover some stuff about prototypes, about visual programming / visual macros, and demo some games and the editor. 05:47:45 a lot of the code iirc uses lists quite heavily, though certain stuff was dropped like hot coal (strings as lists of characters) 05:47:55 What I mean is that the main problem is that in lisp, it's not variables/parameters that are typed, it's the objects. 05:47:57 brb. 05:48:03 So statically typed lisp is an oxymoron. 05:48:18 Sounds like nonsense to me. 05:48:24 pjb: That's provably nonsense. 05:48:30 Static typing just requires invariants. 05:48:48 Lisp has a lot of invariants, you don't need static typing for that. 05:48:48 There's nothing that precludes invariants in lisps, and many supply them in various ways, including CL. 05:49:00 pjb: Your implicit criticism applies to HM systems, but that's not the only way to do static typing. 05:49:03 Ah, literacy ... 05:49:37 eli: I can't see how it could be any faster than dynamic typing. 05:49:52 What does speed have to do with it? 05:50:10 (Yeah, what Zhivago said...) 05:50:20 dto: that's a lot to cover. Don't you want to pick only one or two and cover it in more detail? 05:50:23 Then what are you writing to write the global analysis CL system required? 05:50:29 Fare: okay. 05:50:30 But in any case, see typed racket for a system that deals with such values just fine. 05:50:54 pjb: You seem very incoherent at the moment. 05:50:57 pjb: it just means a static type system for lisp is unlike one for ml. 05:50:58 Fare: if i prepare extra material and don't reach it all in 1 hour, that's better than running out of material early, i suppose 05:51:07 see once again typed racket 05:51:29 dto: If you can have the same quality, maybe. 05:51:43 Fare: i could focus mainly on the visual programming part then. that can include the editor because it's built with the same widgets. 05:51:51 dto: I'd rather you have a well-rehearsed thing on a fraction of the material 05:51:58 okay. 05:52:02 Either it doesn't get in the way, and therefore I don't see any point, or it gets in the way, and therefore it's a negative point. 05:52:26 pjb: or it gets in the way of bugs but not of good programs, and it's a win. 05:52:40 pjb: That argument applies to using anything other than machine-code. 05:52:45 or it provides a way for easier formal verification 05:52:59 pjb: What you need to grasp is that limitations provide power. 05:53:01 Especially so when negotiating APIs between multiple programmers. 05:53:16 Fare: how about this. I'll stick to my visual programming stuff and practice that. then i can prepare some notes for other topics , to be used if there is time. 05:53:17 the power to make contracts 05:53:22 It's just a matter of choosing useful limitations for what you want to get done. 05:53:26 dto: sounds good 05:53:27 Fare: i.e. one main topic. 05:53:46 is thursday june 28 ok for you? 05:53:49 sure. 05:54:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:54:12 ok, I'll book the room. Send me 1 para blurb for speech, 1 para blurb for you. 05:54:25 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 05:54:26 okay. still the same tunes.org address? 05:54:33 yup fare@ 05:54:35 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 05:54:45 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 05:54:47 cool. ok i'll get that to you today or tomorrow. 05:56:20 thanks 05:56:58 For what it's worth, the main problem with strings as lists of characters is the characters. 05:57:30 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:57:40 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:13 Zhivago: well, haskell also ended up finding that it was very slow. Though IIRC the favoured solutions aren't plain vectors 05:59:00 Well, as long as you get rid of characters you can't go too far wrong. 06:00:47 Zhivago: I wonder, would it be better choice if "character" would include all of possible combinations/states parsed from input. 06:01:21 that is, a character would be a compound type, not just a number 06:01:21 That's impossible. 06:01:33 Also, the problem is that it's incoherent when you consider a series. 06:01:56 Consider if one possible combination consumes two octets of input and another consumes one. 06:02:13 This makes the possible combinations depend on the previous combinations. 06:02:16 Zhivago: no direct mapping between character and octet 06:02:57 The only way to do what you want pretty much ends up with characters being strings, as I read it. 06:03:00 while building a string, state caused by previous state-modifying octets would be "carried over" to new one 06:03:22 Right, but you "include all possible combinations/states parsed from input". 06:03:27 So what does that then mean? 06:04:13 Zhivago: modifying/combining characters would add apropriate "modifiers" to each character object 06:04:46 -!- gko [~gko@42.71.178.39] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 06:04:52 each character would be a #S(base-codepoint (modifier1 modifier2)) kind of thing 06:05:41 And the point would be? 06:05:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:05:54 I mean, how does that differ from a string? 06:06:16 Or is the point to prevent further decomposition? 06:06:28 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-8-195.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:06:45 kind of like that (sorry, haven't slept and it shows) 06:07:09 What benefit would it give to prevent further decomposition? 06:07:37 I want to retain "character position" as logical/visual position of the symbol in a string 06:07:56 That's a mistake. 06:08:14 What you probably want is actually something like an offset in a file. 06:08:36 Zhivago: I don't care about external representation 06:08:38 Semantically equivalent to a cursor between elements of a string. 06:08:45 Not talking about external representation. 06:09:19 logical/visual is incoherent and runs into problems with things like right-to-left and so on. 06:10:15 Zhivago: another idea (could be combined) involved encoding strings as trees 06:10:44 To what benefit? 06:11:16 Text is inherently linear. 06:11:42 Zhivago: to correctly represent situations like RTL, proper selection of which language we are dealing with in CJK, etc. 06:12:20 I don't see how trees help with that. 06:12:26 Spanning cursors, perhaps ... 06:13:30 ((:rtl .... ) (:cjk japanese ...) (:cjk chinese-traditional ... )) 06:13:36 something like that 06:13:37 To consider why trees aren't so useful, consider I like cheese 06:14:51 syntex [~me@cpe-66-27-70-143.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:54 Zhivago: given the origin of my tree approach (some musing about text editor), that one would be a bad representation, IMHO. I can see the possibility elsewhere, but I haven't encountered that kind of semantics outside broken HTML 06:16:06 p_l: CL already provides modifiers in the characters. 06:16:15 see char-code vs. char-int 06:16:33 It's not CL's fault if implementations don't. 06:16:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:16:52 But you can write a CL implementation (or patch one) to have that. 06:17:33 Zhivago: your example is proof that trees are useful and needed. 06:18:02 And that on the contrary, character streams are not useful or safe. 06:19:01 pjb: standard-characters don't cover everything, though. And I'm unsure whether trying to add some of the possible attributes would be a good idea (must research first) 06:19:32 Zhivago: text is so inherently linear that a whole industry is devoted to managing text (and documents as per p_l's requirement) as trees. sgml, html, xml, etc. 06:19:33 pjb: Provide reasoning, my incoherent little friend. 06:19:47 pjb: How does my example prove that trees are useful and needed? 06:19:55 Hey there! I'm trying to optimize a simple add function so it uses typed variables. http://pastebin.com/i6EptX12 is what i have. I was hoping it would compile down to a simple ADD opcode? instead of CALLSR (which i assume is call sub rountine?) 06:20:01 Zhivago: I'm just providing you proof by existance that what you say is wrong. No need of any reasoning there, just open your eyes! 06:20:18 forgot to mention i am useing CLISP 06:20:22 pjb: Do you understand what "needed" means? 06:20:24 Zhivago: because your example is ill-formed. 06:20:49 pjb: My example is ill formed because ... you're trying to use trees to implement it? 06:21:05 syntex: in lisp, variables ARE NOT typed! See above. 06:21:47 syntax: Consider the type of the result of adding two fixnums together. 06:21:57 syntex: Is that result a fixnum? 06:22:00 syntex: and clisp generates FOUR instructions. How much shorter you wanted it? 06:22:35 I suggest ignoring pjb. He's been taking illiteracy and incoherence pills. 06:23:14 Zhivago: This is irelevant to syntex's question. 06:23:29 am0c [~am0c@58.237.162.189] has joined #lisp 06:25:03 sorry, give me one second here... 06:27:00 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:29:56 syntex: you might also want to look at THE to annotate the return value... but note that type annotations are a suggestions 06:30:07 s/are a/are/ 06:30:24 -!- phao [phao@187.1.227.47] has left #lisp 06:31:30 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:32:34 ok, released 0.582 ! 06:32:39 syntex: have a look at your function compiled in ccl/x86 http://paste.lisp.org/+2S4A notice how the version WITHOUT type declaration is smaller. 06:32:59 and I'm not sure, but CALLSR might still be a rather generic instruction, I'm not too familar with clisp's interpreter 06:33:18 The more fundamental problem is to understand the type resulting from adding two fixnums together ... 06:33:39 xcvb 0.582 passes all regressions, creates a tarball that xach will like 06:33:54 some compilers will take annotations more seriously depending on safety, and it really depends on you to make sure that it doesn't crash if you don't respect your promise 06:34:21 In assembler, smaller doesn't necessarily mean faster and vice versa. 06:35:17 All of which is irrelevant to the actual type logic in the example. 06:35:34 hm, well this is was i was more or less looking for 06:35:42 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:35:44 i was afraid something was compiling down to a CALL 06:36:45 oh wait.. hm 06:37:01 syntex: clisp uses a lisp VM, so things may be unexpected. 06:37:17 x86 will also be rather surprising. 06:37:33 syntex: What is the type of (+ a b) given that a and b have the type (integer 0 10)? 06:37:33 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:37:46 anyways, what im trying to aim for is for the comiler to just use the x86 ADD opcode to add two integers 06:37:47 -!- shwouchkie [~shwouchk@bzq-82-81-27-209.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:37:52 zhivago: i'm not sure..how do you check? 06:38:03 syntex: You use your brain. 06:38:04 what about (integer 0 20) ? 06:38:18 A type is a mathematical set. 06:38:25 i assume it would be integer 06:38:30 What range of results can you have from adding two numbers in the range 0 to 10? 06:38:35 No wonder you're confused. 06:38:35 (integer 0 10) = {x|xN,0x10} 06:39:04 a,b{x|xN,0x10}, a+b? 06:39:46 well 0 to 20...right? 06:39:48 0+0 to 10+10 06:39:50 right. 06:39:51 Ok. 06:39:56 Now, what does fixnum mean? 06:39:57 i don't see how this is relavent though o.o 06:40:01 1 sec 06:40:16 -!- arrsim [~user@128.250.116.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:39 according to hyperspec, a value from -2^15 to 2^15 -1 06:40:43 Wrong. 06:40:44 fixnum = (integer most-negative-fixnum most-positive-fixnum) 06:40:55 It is a superset of -2^15 to 2^15 -1. 06:41:06 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:09 So what's the type resulting from adding two fixnums together? 06:41:29 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:42:33 i don't get why it wouldn't be a fixnum...i would expect a integer overflow if it couldn't fit 06:42:47 Um ... 06:43:02 Was the result of adding (integer 0 10) to (integer 0 10) an (integer 0 10)? 06:43:15 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:43:21 syntex: it would be: (integer (* 2 most-negative-fixnum) (* 2 most-positive-fixnum)) 06:43:24 <_3b> you can't 'overflow' and integer in CL 06:43:26 It's because you don't understand the difference between type and class yet. 06:43:47 zhiavgo: your right =) 06:43:58 you can, when you don't have enough memory to store it. But it's called an out-of-memory condition, not an "overflow". 06:43:58 zhivago: just started lisp the other day lol 06:44:04 So, your function precludes optimizfixnums. 06:44:14 er, optimizations appropriate to fixnums. 06:44:19 hm 06:44:23 which doesn't exist in clisp anyways. 06:44:36 Pick a type such that the result of adding them is a fixnum if you want that. 06:47:07 A type is a set of potential values. 06:47:16 A class describes the implementation of an instance. 06:47:44 CL has it arse-about-face with respect to fixnum and bignum, unfortunately. 06:47:49 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:47:57 hm 06:48:05 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 06:48:16 CL defines those as types, rather than classes, and expects the implementation to subclass integer somehow. 06:48:41 So when you deal with fixnum you're dealing with a range of integer values, not a particular representation. 06:49:00 When you deal with a subclass of integer, you're dealing with a particular representation. 06:49:18 Which is why types like (or integer string) make sense. 06:49:26 Well you could have fixnum = integer and bignum = nil. 06:49:37 A class of 'or integer string' on the other hand, doesn't really. 06:49:47 But then, most-positive-fixnum would be difficult to represent :-) 06:49:52 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 06:49:53 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has joined #lisp 06:50:37 No, bignum is required to be a subtype of integer. 06:50:46 It cannot be nil. 06:50:53 but fixnum and bignum must be disjoint, IIRC. 06:51:08 (subtypep 'nil 'integer) => t 06:51:09 t 06:51:11 Fair enough. 06:51:16 nil is definitely a subtype of integer. 06:51:43 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has quit [Client Quit] 06:52:17 hm...i gotta do some more reading...i've just gotten into lisp and was curious if it was possible to get the same x86 instructions out of a compiled lisp program as I could in c (for some things that is) 06:52:43 syntex: first choose an implementation with a x86 compiler! 06:52:59 syntex: then, check http://cliki.net/Performance (second section). 06:53:10 or one with a good to-C compiler, with a good C compiler :) 06:53:33 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:53:45 pjb: hm thanks 06:53:46 but sbcl is popular and you'll also find documentation on its type handling on its site 06:53:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA325D3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:53:50 syntex: "same" performance might not be there, but in general, I think generated machine code will be least of your worry 06:54:16 with performance iirc around order of magnitude from C 06:54:26 p_l: my problem is i was at a loss, i wrote a c function to calculate primes and it was a buttload faster then my lisp code 06:54:56 syntex: it could have been the way you wrote it 06:55:17 was it a sieve of erasthothenes? 06:55:31 and then, what did you use to implement sieve itself? 06:55:45 you might want to write code quickly without annotations, test it, then profile it, after which point you could start to add annotations and function-specific optimize declarations 06:55:48 where needed 06:56:06 SBCL is nice there that (optimize (speed 3)) tries to give hints 06:56:19 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:44 hm 1 sec, mind if i upload some c and lisp code? don't mean to be a hassle...just trying to understand lisp better 06:56:52 i don't want to be writing slow code 06:56:59 if you need to check the type, what you need is check-type btw 06:57:10 and etypecase, etc 06:57:15 hm 06:57:54 well i will quickly sum it up anyways, in C all calcultions happened in 1 function and in a couple of for loops, I would check if a number was divisible by an array of prime numbers already calculated, if it wasn't then it's a new prime. 06:58:17 in lisp, i more or less am doing the same thing, but I used make-array and set the type to 'integer 06:58:27 but...i think this goes back to the problem of me not understanding types 06:58:55 syntex: integer means arbitrary integers. (unsigned-byte 32) would be closer to unsigned int in C. 06:59:00 I'm not sure but clisp might be using T (a generic type) everywhere 06:59:18 hm 06:59:23 that is possible 06:59:41 pjb: thanks for the link btw 06:59:56 Fixnum is closer to int in its intent: smallish integer type on which operations are quick. 07:00:20 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host85-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:24 timor [~icke@port-92-195-226-35.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:34 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.146.74.11] has quit [Quit: Bye] 07:01:51 syntex: also check TYPE-OF of course 07:04:00 wwj [~chatzilla@114.247.10.66] has joined #lisp 07:04:40 syntex: the fastest code is the code that is not executed. It's much easier to avoid computation when you're doing symbolic processing than when you're only doing "numerical" computation. 07:05:00 Posterdati [~tapioca@host85-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 syntex: which means: lisp is designed to ease symbolic processing so you can write a program that will "reason" at run-time to avoid computation. 07:05:19 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:05:38 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:54 (and when it needs to compute, it can possibly generate and compile at run time a function optimized for the case). 07:06:20 but...some stuff needs to be computed 07:06:46 Not necessarily. 07:06:58 For example, imagine you're in a game and need to compute collisions between object. 07:07:23 Well, you may very well not compute anything if your software can prove symbolically that two objects are not on a collision course. 07:07:35 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0C7F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:12 pjb: thats why im confused...i would implement a quad-tree system and check only objects within the same area in the tree 07:08:13 Or if they are, it may be able to solve symbolically the movement equations, so that it doesn't need to compute the movement with a small delta-t and still be able to implement the collision at the exact time. 07:08:45 but i don't see how it's posssible not to do some math here o.o 07:09:11 Yes, symbolic maths, instead of numerical computations. 07:09:14 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:09:46 a+b is not maths. Knowing that a set is closed by the + operation is maths. 07:11:38 -!- timor [~icke@port-92-195-226-35.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:54 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:11:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:11:54 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:13:41 syntex: besides: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129755 07:14:33 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:16:19 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-ybsassxdpaxljtfc] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:16:45 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-iwjuynqfopqrphfu] has joined #lisp 07:17:20 i'm sorry, you lost me. I know why that happens but what i don't get is how this relates to performance 07:17:58 syntex: C is fast but gives wrong results. So there's no point in being fast. 07:18:14 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:18:37 And then, if you try to make C give the right results, it will be as slow as lisp, if not much slower, and it will be much more complex to write, debug and maintain. 07:18:55 ( read the first section in the cliki performance page ;-) ) 07:19:19 and consider Greenspun's Tenth Law. 07:20:29 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:20:44 pjb: i know that happens because the size of a integer is dependent on the architecture specs, (eg it could be 8bits on microcontrollers, 32 on others, or even 64)...but some problems won't need integers that big 07:21:02 Integers are unbounded in CL. 07:21:33 -!- dca [~user@178-16-156-18.obit.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:51 C has the same fundamental problem -- you need to choose the correct types in order to correctly use the right representations. 07:22:22 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-iwjuynqfopqrphfu] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:22:28 zhivago: agreed, but my issue is i don't know how to do this in lisp =( i just started using lisp the other day after taking a break and trying to dig deeper 07:22:34 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-mfksmpleswdozqff] has joined #lisp 07:23:07 It's easy -- work out what ranges you're using and use those as types. 07:23:27 Are you using (integer 0 100)? 07:23:39 (integer -3432 3002)? 07:24:43 syntex: I agree that sometimes you need speed and small integers, that's where you may want to add annotations, (including using THE, and possibly using REDUCE at compile-time to serialize math operator pairs as necessary), and chose an implementation that can deal with these 07:25:32 also, on such implementations, often, using for instance LOOP with variables which bound are known will automatically generate efficient code (and LOOP also supports annotations if needed) 07:26:24 zhivago: i'll try using that type and mess around with it compiles down to. I'm not saying lisp is a bad language at all. I think the whole idea of macros is mind-blowing and awesome, i just gotta learn more lisp at this point...kind of hard for me to continue discussion 07:27:05 Macros are nothing special. 07:27:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1288.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:10 Anyhow, good luck. 07:27:27 I suspect that your fundamental problem comes down to not having worked with types before. 07:27:31 they're great if all you had was the C processor before, or no preprocessor at all (i.e. Java) 07:27:35 And now you're confusing classes with types. 07:27:55 Well, they're just little compilers. 07:28:01 s/processor/preprocessor/ 07:28:52 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:28:53 zhivago: i will read up on how lisp defines classes and types. I amd used to types being *ptr,int,char,short,etc. and classes..well in the usual sense as c++/java/php/etc 07:29:03 syntex: Those aren't types. 07:29:07 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:15 morning 07:29:22 syntex: Good luck. 07:30:06 thanks 07:30:28 Fare: sent blurbs 07:30:46 thanks 07:30:56 let me know if you want any changes 07:31:01 or, just make them :) 07:31:05 I'll look tomorrow 07:31:10 I will 07:31:12 and thanks to everyone else for the info..give me a lot of keywords to search for =P 07:31:15 okay . i tried to keep it on one thesis 07:31:23 i.e. one main idea to present 07:33:04 syntex: see http://paste.lisp.org/+2S4D, for example. 07:33:33 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:33:44 syntex: you're welcome; also read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_type.htm carefully if you haven't already, of course 07:35:14 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:36:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:40 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xqiwfkwtzctihgay] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:39:01 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:40:09 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:40:44 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:47 dropster1 [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:44:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-146.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:04 dropster2 [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:46:39 killerboy [~mateusz@62.152.129.176.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 07:47:04 http://code.google.com/p/google-blockly/ ugh, i guess i will get sued by google now? 07:47:09 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:47:36 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-92-114.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-25-135.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-25-135.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:47:37 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:48:13 -!- dropster1 [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:50:53 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:50:53 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:52:47 -!- wwj [~chatzilla@114.247.10.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:54:49 syntex: see how you can use libecl from a C program: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129755#2 07:56:38 syntex: the main problem with fixnum is that it's implementation dependant. 07:58:07 It would be better to define your own numerical types: (deftype month () '(integer 1 12)) (defun add-month (month number-of-months) (declare (type month month) (integer number-of-months)) (1+ (mod (+ (1- month) number-of-months) 12))) 08:02:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:05 -!- drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:04:08 Better if they were discriminable. 08:04:16 Go does a decent job there. 08:04:30 -!- zezikaro [zezikaro@93-97-250-47.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:33 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:20 -!- syntex [~me@cpe-66-27-70-143.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:10:56 syntex [~me@cpe-66-27-70-143.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:25 drdo [~drdo@roach0.drdo.eu] has joined #lisp 08:14:35 Zhivago: it seems to me CL does a decent job here too: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129758 08:15:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 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[quassel@nat/indt/x-bfrpqrdzpvblozxn] has joined #lisp 08:48:04 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:48:06 ante_ [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:49:02 mal__ [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:09 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:40 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 08:55:56 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:57:24 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 08:57:37 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 08:59:23 lukas [~lukas@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 08:59:48 -!- lukas is now known as Guest70659 09:00:43 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:01:09 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:01:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@58.237.162.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:59 pjb: how would you approach thhe kind of cpu optimisation presented in the following article, in CL? http://lol.zoy.org/blog/2011/9/17/playing-with-the-cpu-pipeline 09:06:44 dim: I would leave the implementation do it. 09:07:06 meaning you don't explicitely dive that down in lisp? 09:07:07 You could patch an implementation, or use one which has a LAP (ie VOP in sbcl). 09:07:19 lap? 09:07:41 Lisp Assembler Procedure. 09:08:29 You could do that in lisp, but not by coding explicitely a specific expression, but by writing a code generator. There are numerous examples. 09:08:31 looks like the thing disassemble returns? 09:08:45 For some implementations, yes. 09:09:26 I only looked at what it does in CCL yet 09:09:42 you can also build something like the compiler toolkit used for VLM, which was sort-of high-level assembly made in Lisp 09:10:02 dim: in ccl, try: (apropos "LAP") 09:10:38 dim: same as what sam did; generate code and look. Instead of his inline assembly trick, I'd generate the assembly myself, though. 09:10:48 pjb: nice 09:12:00 pkhuong: I was more thinking about the previous steps before that, ie the cpu pipeline tricks with re-ordering the operations 09:12:59 dim: you can always reorder operations in lisp, but since they're generally of higher level, it probably won't have the expected effect. 09:13:03 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:13:13 I guess a CL seasonned hacker would implement a kind of an expression compiler having all the knowledge of the pipeline and doing the reordering itself, probably as a macro 09:13:14 -!- ante_ is now known as cymew 09:13:32 Yes. 09:13:46 dim: like I said, generate code and look. If you're wondering how to get the performance estimates, the first step is just time or rdtsc (read-cycle-counter), and then calls to profiling infrastructure like perf. 09:14:27 Google Blockly, can't join the discussion group because it's Google Groups only, and i refuse to open a google account 09:14:27 dim: have you read the thing? There's basically nothing to schedule on current x86oids. 09:14:28 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:15:19 pkhuong: time is pretty good for my needs, I don't need to get down to that article levels of optimisations myself, I'm only curious and want some amo to debunk the "you can't be as fast as C in CL" push backs sometime heard (yes, trolls) 09:15:57 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 09:16:04 pkhuong: I read a long time ago a remember about meticulous arrangement of the code to match the CPU ordering of operations 09:16:07 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 09:16:35 The problem is that you will have to change your program as soon as you change the processor. 09:17:00 that's a common tradeoff in high demanding performant cycles, I believe 09:17:16 dim: no need to do that on current x86 (except very cheap atoms). Explicit scheduling is very fragile and can result in really bad performance drop offs when the model is wrong, while the gains are often marginal. 09:17:36 It would probably be informative to see the fast FFT beach implemented. 09:17:41 I would agree with the general approach you are both proposing, here, really 09:17:45 Anyway, https://github.com/pkhuong/Napa-FFT3 is how I did it for FFTs. 09:17:52 I just want to know that CL allows me to get that crazy about it :) 09:18:23 dim: see http://cliki.net/Performance (second section). 09:18:35 I'm currently down into micro optimising a multi-pages SQL query that takes more than 10ms to execute, you know... :) 09:19:08 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19:25 another one, I can't seem to locate an authoritative article on how SBCL compiles interactive defun you send to it, I understand it will turn them into C code, compile that, then load the .so, is that correct? 09:19:47 dim: SBCL has its own codegen. 09:19:48 No. 09:19:51 no. It turns the source into machine code. 09:20:01 In general the code is generated directly in memory. 09:20:01 oh. much like CCL then? 09:20:05 Yes. 09:20:33 Only gcl and ecl call an external C compiler (and even, optionnally). 09:20:46 gcl is deprecated, though? 09:21:14 They don't have their own code generators though. So if you opt to not call a C compiler you'll get an interpreter. 09:25:19 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 09:26:44 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 09:27:19 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:46 dim: you can transliterate hocevar's code into CL and see the same effect in SBCL. 09:29:22 meaning you just did it out of curiosity? :) 09:30:03 no. meaning I have a decent idea of how the compiler works. 09:31:26 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:38:49 dim: a compiler with very intimate knowledge of target cpu was done for Virtual Lisp Machine, which implemented a Symbolic Ivory LispM on Alpha 09:44:24 wg_ [~wg@f053117033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:20 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not 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peer] 12:15:24 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:17:20 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:29 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 12:24:54 clhs random 12:24:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_random.htm 12:29:03 ahh it's a wonderful day! 12:29:06 cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 replore_ [~replore@FL1-125-198-49-191.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 12:33:20 -!- nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:35:41 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053014135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:37:16 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:38 ehu [~ehuels@109.38.68.199] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:12 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] 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ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-bcapucrxsuedjhxe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:18:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:21 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:22:29 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 14:22:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-22-92.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:22:43 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:23:39 (ql:quickload "ltk") ===> caught ERROR: Lock on package SB-EXT violated when binding EXIT as a local function while in package LTK. 14:26:24 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:27:14 try (let ((*package* (find-package :sb-ext))) (ql:quickload "ltk")) as a workaround - may help 14:28:36 lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 or maybe (unuse-package :sb-ext) (ql:quickload "ltk") 14:28:45 that won't help. ltk probably :uses sb-ext and defines exit as function 14:28:46 -!- lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 14:28:54 maybe 14:29:39 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A034.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:44 paddington [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has joined #lisp 14:29:55 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 14:30:54 I've just tried, simple (ql:quickload "ltk") works for me 14:31:28 drl: try to update quicklisp (ql:update-all-dists) 14:32:16 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:33:32 antonv: do you have the latest sbcl? that's probably the issue 14:33:48 not the very latest 14:33:49 *madnificent* wonders why sbcl changed the function of quit to exit. 14:33:57 but sb-ext:exit exists 14:33:58 antonv: the *very* latest changes it :) 14:34:10 antonv, I still have the problem. 14:34:33 sorry, in my sbcl there is not sb-ext:exit 14:34:48 antonv: ah, i was confused already :) 14:35:07 drl: you'll have to fix that in ltk, i'm affraid 14:35:33 madnificent: read nikodemus's blog 14:35:48 madnificent, OK. Thanks. 14:36:53 fe[nl]ix: i can't seem to find the correct post 14:37:11 fe[nl]ix: that's random-state.net, right? 14:39:35 ozialien [~ernest@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 I was wrong, he announced it on sbcl-devel: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/16543 14:42:09 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:26 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:42:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 14:43:31 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:38 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:56 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:29 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:47:13 'morning 14:47:44 hi Fade 14:48:04 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-84.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:48:04 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 14:48:05 (greet 'Fade) 14:48:30 well, my CL project concludes today. 14:48:30 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:41 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:48:45 'grats 14:49:12 on the whole, it has been the smoothest development project we've seen, ever. 14:49:27 even /w bringing along the other guys who were new to lisp at the beginning. 14:49:42 Fade: What was the project? 14:50:10 we were hired to develop a monitoring backend for a security appliance, and I pitched a CL solution. 14:52:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:52:45 considering how things unfolded, it won't be our last. :) 14:53:05 Fade: Are you hiring? ;) 14:53:06 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:16 Fade: you finished the project before I got to release iolib :) 14:53:23 *Fade* chuckles 14:53:45 it was nice being able to pay for features in a worthwhile system. ;) 14:54:42 naryl: well, no. one of the best things about using CL is that we didn't need to bring on any more hands to deliver the project in scope, but my intention is to hire our of the lisp world in the future. 14:54:50 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:56:01 CL kills the job market! 14:56:31 my team of three replaced a failed attempt /w a team of eight working in java. 14:56:54 lisp is a force amplifier! 14:57:00 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-ccpfqejwzzfunoql] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 14:57:03 Fade: then again, it's always easier to avoid mistakes when you know about them. 14:57:12 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-apaxxadtvciahboy] has joined #lisp 14:57:19 Fade: With two newbies? 14:57:45 well, newbies in the form of seasoned hackers, one of whom is a Waterloo educated mathemetician. ;) 14:58:07 pnpuff [~uu@host161-255-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:58:07 -!- pnpuff [~uu@host161-255-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:07 pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:58:27 it's not like I was trying to coax along a pair of PHP 'programmers'. 14:59:00 congrats! 14:59:11 thx :D 14:59:11 Fade: I don't think Waterlo's awesomeness is that well-known outside canada (: 14:59:18 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:59:37 ah, well, Waterloo is a bit like the MIT of Canada in the domain of math and computer science. 15:00:12 is that near toronto ? 15:00:57 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:12 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-betajyioyjhfsorz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:21 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:56 well, it's about a hundred kilometers west of toronto. 15:02:09 by Canadian standards, that is near. 15:02:15 jep 15:03:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:03:42 CLHS defines session as session n. the conceptual aggregation of events in a Lisp image from the time it is started to the time it is terminated. 15:05:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:05:14 dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 Why does SBCL even have its sessions? 15:05:57 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:06:49 naryl: because otherwise interacting with the debugger in multithreaded applications becomes difficult. 15:07:42 I've never encountered sessions in any CL debugging tutorial. Just learned about them from this announcement by Nikodemus. 15:07:54 Fade: Thanks for the summary! 15:08:23 naryl: sessions are internal stuff. 15:09:14 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:10:04 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:36 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:05 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:14:18 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:41 -!- dropster2 [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 15:15:55 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:18:05 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 ehu [~ehuels@109.38.68.199] has joined #lisp 15:21:29 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:22:06 -!- dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:29 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:22:34 dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has joined #lisp 15:27:15 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.209.186] has joined #lisp 15:28:30 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:57 -!- bokuk [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32:28 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:32:40 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:33:54 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:23 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:04 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:38:18 djcoin [~makina@lns-bzn-54-82-251-76-250.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:27 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:42:27 -!- paddington [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:42:32 -!- timor [~icke@port-92-195-226-35.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42:36 Hi all, I have a very basic question, what is the purpose of s-expression ? It seems very versatile but when does one would really use this ? I guess you can encode basically everything (lisp ast is a sexp no ?) 15:43:20 djcoin: lisp programs are written as s-expressions, so when you program in lisp, you automatically use them. 15:43:29 sexp is only used in esoteric situations and you need not worry about it. One example of esoteric situation is every single line of code you ever write, in lisp. 15:43:37 but really, don't worry about it. 15:43:56 damowe [~enki@201.215.0.93] has joined #lisp 15:44:45 did anyone here ever see "Postgresql protocol error: Unexpected message received: C" with postmodern? 15:45:22 another example is when you want a quick and easy way to write and read data from a file, in situations where you might use something like JSON or XML. 15:45:29 timor [~icke@port-92-195-16-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:47 All right, so except in very, maybe, complex kind of datastructure (many levels of depths, composition, recursive, etc.) you would barely never use sexp ? 15:45:50 H4ns: shot in the dark here, but I vaguely recall seeing something like thata involving Andy's code. 15:46:01 (Im trying to grasp the concept of sexp) 15:46:11 I guess it's just the most versatile structure you can get 15:46:17 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 djcoin: did you read what i wrote? 15:46:48 sykopomp: it is just a very simple select and the error is triggered on a specific row. 15:46:52 H4ns: yeah, and did you read what I wrote in first place ? I know that list is made of sexp 15:46:59 s/list/lisp 15:47:03 djcoin: no, I was being sarcastic. You *always* use s-exp when you use common lisp. 15:47:24 djcoin: your question was "when does one use s-expression" and i said "when you write lisp programs" 15:47:25 is there any 'real' difference between "loop for... if... do... else... do and the same construct but using "when" instead of "if" ? 15:47:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:47:40 francogrex: what do you mean by "real"? 15:48:05 I mean would at any point results differ? 15:48:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:48:22 djcoin: think of sexps as filling a similar role to JSON or XML, except they're much easier to use in common lisp. 15:48:24 I know that, as i told earlier when you write lisp, your write its own ast, which is made of a sexp 15:48:57 sykopomp: yeah, i will narrow down my question, sexp as a datastructure - not in lisp specifically 15:49:13 jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:49:32 again, they fill the same role as JSON or XML would. 15:49:52 Ok 15:49:54 whether you pick sexps for data exchange comes down to how convenient it is, I think. 15:50:16 if you're exchanging data with a lisp program, sexps might actually be the easiest thing to use. 15:50:50 djcoin: s-expression is a loose term. Basically, it means any string representation that READ will accept 15:51:12 if not then if and when in a loop are not both needed, one of the two would have been enough 15:51:37 djcoin: Is there a more specific question you have? Might be easier to answer. 15:52:30 S-expression can be used to represent data. Most often it is used to represent code. 15:52:58 H4ns: simple select with the default row reader? weird. 15:53:05 tcr: thanks for your answer ; in fact my question won't get more specific ; I'm not a lisp programmer I came here because I know lisp programmers are sexp experts :) I just wanted to be sure to grasp the sexp structure, its benefits and use cases 15:53:06 felideon: indeed. 15:53:12 thank god it's friday 15:53:27 djcoin: It's an ordered list. Very low-level but with some conventions like property lists you can easily represent both JSON and XML as s-exp. If you want to store data in s-exps you need to keep in mind that unlike JSON and XML s-exps have few parsers for other languages than lisps. And no validators at all. 15:53:27 djcoin: there is no such thing as THE sexp structure 15:54:10 sexperts? 15:54:29 felideon: THanks god its friday 15:54:31 :) 15:54:38 djcoin: But they're used to store data sometimes if you know you don't need anything other than CL. 15:54:40 :) 15:55:05 felideon: s-exp is everything and nothing. Everyone can have an expert opinion but none of them is correct. :] 15:55:31 djcoin: S-expressions are quite ok for representing code. I.e. compare the textual representation of an AST represented in a Lisp S-expression to that represented by XML or JSON. 15:57:07 naryl: thanks - in fact I saw it several times in the last weeks ; I was checking out new language for me, like Ocaml and such, and I saw some rare sexp keywords. I wanted to know why such lib existed and what was the advantage over json or xml as you mentionned 15:57:25 *francogrex* wonders why he is being blatantly ignored while he asks such meaningful and life changing questions? 15:57:28 yeah 15:57:42 francogrex: There is no difference 15:57:59 H4ns: because i remember an error like that when i was writing a new row-reader and my loop was off-by-one or something, so it encountered the end of record or something instead of a value. 15:58:22 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:30 (vague recollection of course) 15:59:04 ok, here then I found a way to reduce the size of a lisp program! hurray! let's kill "when" 15:59:06 francogrex: I use "when" when it makes more sense language-wise in english, I use "if" if it makes more sense in the particular context 16:01:25 djcoin: s-expressions are a nice textual representation of ASTs for occasions when it has to be written out by human beings 16:01:26 ok ok sorry it was a kind of a trolling useless question. I was bored. Back to work now. See you all later... 16:02:11 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 tcr: coding AST in sexps seems okays indeed 16:03:52 s/okays/a good fit 16:06:02 -!- terpri [~terpri@111.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: terpri] 16:09:23 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has quit [Quit: bbl] 16:10:02 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:15:43 Thanks for all the comments :) 16:16:06 Bye 16:16:09 -!- djcoin [~makina@lns-bzn-54-82-251-76-250.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 16:16:21 fantazo [~fantazo@85-127-93-72.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 -!- antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:16:47 dotty [~dotty@78.129.245.75] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:17:34 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-125-198-49-191.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.38.68.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:47 Hi everyone. I'm learning CL at the moment (very early on), just making my way through the 3rd chapter of Practical Common Lisp. Just wondering what the difference between *query-io* and *standard-input* is - as it doesn't seem to make a difference which I use. 16:19:43 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:53 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:20:56 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 16:21:03 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:07 Also, another question: I'm using gcl at the moment but noticed the project seemingly hasn't been developed on since 2005. Is gcl still used or are there better alternatives? 16:22:04 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.174] has joined #lisp 16:22:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-178.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:17 there are much better alternatives. nearly any other, in fact 16:23:20 we like sbcl here 16:23:23 among others 16:23:50 dlowe, briefly, is there a reason why they're preferred (out of interest)? 16:24:20 dotty: faster, less buggy, more featureful, more comformant 16:24:25 dotty: GCL is dead (as you've noticed), and was never very compliant, IIRC. 16:24:32 dotty: every positive thing you can say about software, really 16:24:48 dlowe, sellout: fair enough, will switch to sbcl then :) 16:26:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:10 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-apaxxadtvciahboy] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:28:35 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-dkpvesywspmtxbrm] has joined #lisp 16:28:37 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 16:29:30 I'm a little punchy, because I haven't had a lot of sleep, but are we experiencing a duck troll? 16:31:09 fe[nl]ix: so we're having this mess because we wanted to degrade graciously, kind of ironic. but thanks for the post! it was interesting. 16:32:47 -!- DeterminancyPimp [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:51 -!- dotty [~dotty@78.129.245.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:35:57 zanoni_ [quassel@nat/indt/x-xngxoxootbmwlgbb] has joined #lisp 16:36:05 -!- zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-dkpvesywspmtxbrm] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:36:44 Fade: a duck troll? 16:38:24 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:45 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:39:51 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:40:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A034.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:12 b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:47 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:50 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:52:30 inaimathi [~inaimathi@174.137.255.113] has joined #lisp 16:54:26 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:54:30 aceluck [~aceluck@123.136.106.169] has joined #lisp 17:01:44 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:02:57 -!- b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:20 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:23 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:04:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:20 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:21 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:02 -!- timor [~icke@port-92-195-16-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:19:21 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:23 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:19:53 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:21:18 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:22:09 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24:50 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:29:54 -!- shwouchkie [~shwouchk@bzq-82-81-27-209.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:30:52 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:30:57 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 timor [~icke@port-92-195-16-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:35 -!- damowe [~enki@201.215.0.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:23 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:24 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:38:57 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 17:40:34 walks like a troll, talks like a troll.. 17:40:41 n'eer mind. 17:40:42 -!- dnolen [~user@142.131.228.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:41:12 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:42:08 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:08 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:43:39 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:39 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:44:08 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:09 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:09 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:44:13 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 17:44:37 i won't! 17:47:29 -!- [SLB] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:47:30 [SLBusy] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:47:31 -!- [SLBusy] is now known as [SLB] 17:48:21 Anyone here have any experience with CLERIC? http://common-lisp.net/project/cleric/ 17:48:43 Or, at least, know where I could see an example? 17:49:20 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:49:38 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:50 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:50:09 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:50:21 *homie* asks his monk suit! 17:50:33 terpri [~terpri@111.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:41 inaimathi: there's a wiki linked to from that very page. 17:50:43 https://github.com/flambard/CLERIC/wiki/How-to-use-CLERIC 17:50:52 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:36 inaimathi: it's pointless. if you want erlang, use erlang 17:53:31 may as well get rid of FFI while we're at it. 17:53:38 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 17:54:47 sykopomp: you have no idea what you're talking about 17:55:23 fe[nl]ix: you're being pretty toxic today. 17:55:34 no, I'm just right 17:55:52 Not really, you just really want to be. 17:55:58 and I can respect that. 17:57:26 stop making a fool of yourself 17:57:46 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:08 the acoustics in this room is awful! 17:58:31 without the guarantees given by the Erlang VM, which is a very well done piece of software, Erlang-the-language is a pretty but not very useful thing 17:58:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:17 educate me more. 18:00:04 in any case, I can see the use in writing programs that can interface with existing erlang applications (or vice-versa) in Common Lisp. 18:00:38 and for that, this seems like a passable solution. 18:00:50 you can use a regular socket for that instead of implementing the whole protocol 18:01:34 you can. 18:01:40 and you can also interface with the erlang node itself. 18:05:34 sykopomp: the Erlang VM tries to avoid blocking syscalls as much as possible and interprets the bytecode instead of doing JIT - which is possible(HiPE), but problematic 18:05:54 lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:06:07 -!- lony [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 18:06:30 combined with per-process GC, that makes it easy to kill any misbehaving process without ill-consequences 18:06:45 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 fe[nl]ix: Why are you telling me this? 18:07:22 -!- timor [~icke@port-92-195-16-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:07:25 anybody trying to achieve Erlang's reliability without having a specially-designed VM is delusional 18:08:10 okay, and? 18:08:43 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:08:50 you said "educate me more" 18:08:54 here you are 18:09:44 I was being sarcastic. I don't understand what you think CLERIC's role should be or why you think it's unacceptable. 18:10:40 s/should/would/ 18:14:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:02 -!- tycho [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:17:54 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:21:11 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 18:21:27 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:21:39 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:58 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:22:05 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:20 ha, I was getting sad about the current state of documentation for some interesting lisp projects, but zs3 is crazy awesome 18:24:58 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 18:31:14 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:27 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0C7F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:33:00 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:00 lazyfingers [~lazyfinge@78.84.172.207] has joined #lisp 18:37:52 -!- dekuked [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:17 dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:29 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.207.3] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.54.238] has joined #lisp 18:49:28 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:54:55 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 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19:20:29 -!- [SLBusy] [~casper@host72-165-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 19:20:29 [SLBusy] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:20:29 -!- [SLB] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:20:30 -!- [SLBusy] is now known as [SLB] 19:21:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@174.137.255.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:19 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:24:10 -!- [SLB] [~casper@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:20 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:28:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-248-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:03 arrdem [~arrdem@rrcs-71-42-216-31.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:58 -!- terpri [~terpri@111.Red-79-156-38.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: terpri] 19:36:25 -!- lazyfingers [~lazyfinge@78.84.172.207] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 19:39:45 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: beee are bee] 19:45:32 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:45:32 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:08 Is there anything in lisp that tries to achieve this "The GWT Editor framework allows data stored in an object graph to be mapped onto a graph of Editors" (https://developers.google.com/web-toolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideUiEditors) 19:46:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:46:34 This goal:Decrease the amount of glue code necessary to move data from an object graph into a UI and back. 19:46:47 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:51:21 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:24 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:11 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:57:57 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 20:01:53 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 20:02:43 yeah, CLIM and inspectors. 20:03:21 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 20:05:56 saage_ [~saage@200.181.252.43] has joined #lisp 20:08:55 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:13:49 Kron__ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 20:14:49 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128015148.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:12 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:17:44 Who are the CLIM experts here btw? Surely there are some. 20:19:14 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:35 -!- borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:21:42 -!- saage_ [~saage@200.181.252.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:40 -!- edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: All hope lost] 20:25:08 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 20:25:57 -!- b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:26:35 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 20:27:16 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 A couple ex-McCLIM hackers. All mostly disenchanted with it, I think. 20:27:47 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:30:34 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:30:46 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-237-94.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:59 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-65.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:25 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:34:35 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:09 so, I know others have run into this, and I'm just going to mention a probable solution: I just noticed, after re-enabling line wrapping in emacs, that very long contents of the minibuffer (such as very long lambda lists) actually wrap now there, too. 20:35:31 heh 20:36:29 lukas_ [~lukas@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 20:37:37 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:37:46 (with-sarcasm "This is good practice:" (defmacro day-of-week (d) `(mod ,d 7))) 20:39:22 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 20:39:34 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 -!- Kron__ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:43:11 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:16 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 ZombieChicken [~none@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 20:44:58 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:59 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:33 which is the biggest lisp application, which is still running and is not threatened by java, C/C++, python, perl, ruby? 20:48:51 AutoCAD? ITA's stuff? 20:49:07 all of them 20:49:17 obvious troll is obvious? 20:50:38 So, unrelated, it seems that there's a new edition of The Garbage Collection Handbook out, as of late last year. 20:50:59 ITA's stuff? 20:51:26 fantazo: http://itasoftware.com/ 20:51:47 ChibaPet: interesting .. i have his other/older book apparently 20:51:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:52:15 oGMo: Someone recommended it to me, and I was just looking this morning to see if there was anything new, with the idea that I was going to buy it. Evidently I picked the right time to look. 20:52:34 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:54:28 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:45 -!- zanoni_ [quassel@nat/indt/x-xngxoxootbmwlgbb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:14 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:01:49 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:36 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:02:37 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 21:03:07 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 21:04:49 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-225-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:04 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-237-56.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:26 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:08:29 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:38 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yduzkhohmvnyubkj] has joined #lisp 21:08:42 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:08:42 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 21:13:51 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:27 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 21:15:24 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:24 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:16:36 eslg [~ulgen@92.243.190.94] has joined #lisp 21:17:14 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:17:31 -!- pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: (list :d 'f :i 'i :c 'g :a 'a)] 21:17:56 lukas [~lukas@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 21:18:07 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 -!- lukas is now known as Guest38207 21:18:28 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:56 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 21:19:06 hmpf, can i somehow convince OPEN to disregard wildcards in a pathname? 21:19:35 try to talk to him 21:20:23 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:20:58 i doubt that will help, i'm only getting "can't find truename ..." 21:21:54 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:54 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:22:00 (open (the-stream #p"hello" :direction :output ...) 21:22:02 = 21:22:03 ) 21:22:14 I think you have to use a pathname 21:22:31 apathor_ [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:32 anyone have a minute to look at a defsetf problem? (btw this is elisp -- i asked on #emacs but nobody was able to help so i'm trying here.) code and results are at http://paste.lisp.org/display/129775 21:22:35 ferada: if it's a literal pathname quote the *, or use make-pathname to build a non-wild pathname 21:22:40 -!- apathor_ [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:22:53 ferada see make-pathname 21:23:29 ferada: is not an open problem, instead path configuration 21:24:43 i've got no "*", but "[" and "]"; okay i can use make-pathname, but thats not so useful if i've actually read that filename from a file or so 21:25:00 e.g. "~/foo [bar]" 21:25:43 'kay quoting works as well 21:25:53 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-237-94.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:53 still annoying 21:27:28 -!- eslg [~ulgen@92.243.190.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:21 -!- sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:28:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-143.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:39 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:44 sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:04 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:40 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 21:43:10 ferada, what are you trying to do? 21:44:00 (if (wild-pathname-p p) (error ...) (open ...)) ? 21:44:07 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:46:11 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-255-106.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:40 i tried opening a file with a filename which i copied plain from a terminal 21:47:01 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:05 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.29.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:47:16 obviously exactly that happens, but i missed quoting the offending characters 21:47:38 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 21:48:36 actually it would still be good to have a way to open arbitrary octet sequences as filenames (yes sb-posix, still), since the filesystem probably hasn't many restrictions anyway 21:50:30 from http://pauls-techno-blog.tumblr.com/post/15386878530/current-work: "Anyway, Im writing the desktop portion of it(thesis) in Common Lisp, since it has fewer GUI portability issues than Ruby." 21:50:34 lol 21:51:13 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:52:27 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:53:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:54:21 maybe the ruby situation is pretty bleak? 21:54:46 ferada: if you want a portable solution -- look for iolib 21:56:46 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:58:06 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.54.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:59 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.26.109] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:20 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:31 Guthur [~user@host86-147-203-212.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:58 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 22:07:14 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:27 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:36 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:18 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:10:55 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:11:59 dnolen [~user@142.131.228.247] has joined #lisp 22:12:45 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:41 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-108-3-159-149.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:21:51 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:21:57 francogrex [~yaaic@109.130.21.79] has joined #lisp 22:23:30 fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:48 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:55 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:24:25 -!- poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-66-68-80-227.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:25:58 quite here 22:27:04 quiet even 22:27:50 ruby is no bleaker than say ... death 22:29:24 like a fruity and colorful, cheerfully accepted and well spun death 22:29:37 dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:40 yay 22:29:50 why pick on ruby? 22:31:23 you're right of course. Just chiming in with comments above. It's no worse than a lot of other computing cultures and better than a bunch. 22:31:31 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:31:56 there is something a bit insufferable about rubyists though 22:32:03 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@123.136.106.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:34 *madnificent* doublechecks the name of this channel 22:32:43 RenJuan: If you want insufferable, read the first chapter of The Joy of Clojure. :P 22:32:51 RenJuan: thanks for the judgement, I guess 22:32:53 maybe, I don't know any rubyist... 22:33:02 hi francogrex (: 22:33:03 francogrex: you know me 22:33:35 francogrex: and on that note, have you continued toying with enyo? did you combine it with parenscript and how did that work out? 22:34:10 ChibaPet, antifuchs, ack. 22:34:13 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:05 hey guys :) 22:35:08 -!- dekuked` [~user@static-98-164-147-69.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:35:25 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:25 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:35:37 i didn't realize you were... 22:36:00 there are tons of easily-picked-on things in ruby, but the community isn't the first thing I'd have chosen (: 22:36:14 francogrex: we are infiltrating #lisp so we can take it over! for me lisp > ruby perhaps different for antifuchs 22:36:41 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb119-74-178-124.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:36:56 give me an implementation with a non-stupid GC and threading semantics that somebody has spent time actually thinking about any day 22:37:26 which you're saying ruby lacks? 22:37:48 madnificient, not had much time really but still planning maybe next week 22:37:50 or lisp lacks? 22:38:05 lifeng [~lifeng@bb119-74-178-124.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 22:38:44 francogrex: i've been toying with it in javascript and i'm quite liking it (for a js framework). i don't know how it'll interact with parenscript (in which i'm not well-versed), so i'm very eager to find out about your findings. 22:39:07 RenJuan: ruby does 22:39:10 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:39:22 RenJuan: lack, that is 22:39:56 its runtime needs about a decade or so more time to mature and become good 22:40:07 in the meantime, it still manages to be useful as a tool 22:40:10 (sadly) (; 22:40:15 I was toying around with Stella though (and I don't mean my neighbour's wife) 22:40:18 *madnificent* misses the MOP, and knowing that it will not change in 6 months 22:40:25 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:25 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:40:41 multiple dispatch 22:40:44 *antifuchs* yearns 22:43:29 antifuchs: what interesting stuff are you up to now ? 22:43:30 madnificient I will try to remember next week. it's good you found it useful 22:43:55 I work at stripe now, making it possible to get paid on the internet with minimal hassle (: 22:44:29 begin last week i tried a lib (cl+j)... interesting 22:46:04 i don't want to get sucked up much in java though (or anything else except C maybe)... 22:47:32 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:47:57 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:48:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:49:50 timor [~icke@port-92-195-16-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:02 -!- francogrex [~yaaic@109.130.21.79] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 22:50:55 is slime still using cvs? 22:51:12 is the mirror at http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/slime.git up to date? 22:52:08 Fare: i think quicklisp might give you a hint at where it came from, not sure 22:52:17 Fare: yes&yes 22:53:06 *Fare* decides to clone the git mirror, which will make hacking so much easier. 22:53:19 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 22:54:16 urandom__ [~user@p548A2FEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:44 bokuk [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 23:00:00 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-295-125.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:24 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:08:14 how does stripe compare to paypal? They don't charge a fee at all, do transactions for nothing? 23:09:58 RenJuan: do they accept credit cards? 23:09:59 oh sorry, see you said you work FOR stripe, I read that as you were using stripe 23:10:20 madnificent, PayPal? Yes. 23:10:23 -!- bokuk [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:28 no, stripe 23:10:52 a that's exactly what they do 23:10:55 just learned of stripe from antifuchs mention above 23:11:39 isn't that just slightly over the pricing of paypal? 23:11:41 which I think I erroneously took as meaning he used it to accept payments in his capacity as a self employed person 23:12:06 yeah paypal is 2.9% 23:12:14 + x cents 23:13:31 unclear 23:14:03 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.209.186] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:14:04 RenJuan: hah, yeah, I am a stripe employee (: 23:14:09 antifuchs: you should add lisp to the snippets on the site! 23:14:24 I should ((: 23:14:29 -!- sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:14:42 we are pretty much 1:1 with paypal, except you know, cost of using their horrid api (; 23:14:50 antifuchs: i'll write a micro STRIPE lib in the near future, perhaps 23:15:00 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yduzkhohmvnyubkj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:00 1:1 in what sense, function? 23:15:13 antifuchs: do you have the same pricing for large volumes? + paypal is commonly used as you don't /need/ a creditcard for it 23:15:42 for large volumes, contact sales@ and we can cut you a good deal, I think (: 23:15:58 cool cool 23:16:15 I'm happy with paypal except for the cut and the hassell for charges over $1500 23:17:18 all transactions vendors are parasites IMO but I'm a communist 23:17:55 RenJuan: those two statements have got nothing to do with each other. s/communist/anarchist/ perhaps? 23:17:57 well not all 23:18:38 in some cases you can get down to a low fixed fee 23:19:21 rats, I just missed Fare -- he has email :) 23:20:11 madnificent, I chose "communist" as an arbitrary term of opposition 23:20:45 RenJuan: please don't 23:20:50 RenJuan: well, check out our terms. maybe there's a positive surprise for you in there (: 23:20:59 anyway, back to topical things 23:21:10 (I need to write more tests for cl-stripe one of these days) 23:21:14 i registered 23:21:18 yay 23:22:16 madnificent, we can discuss this elsewhere, I'm juan@acm.org 23:24:26 minion: chant! 23:24:26 MORE TESTS 23:25:19 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:25:24 -!- dnolen [~user@142.131.228.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:33 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:43 it's the same price as paypal, looks uninteresting but I'm glad you have a job and hopefully using lisp 23:27:15 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-115-242.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:01 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:17 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:31:23 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:51 -!- ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:28 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:24 ered [~ered@108-201-125-162.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:55 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:55 -!- dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:44:53 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:52 pnq [~nick@ACA2786C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:50 bokuk [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:54:24 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 23:57:26 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:58 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp