00:01:33 -!- dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:05 dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has joined #lisp 00:02:32 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:02:50 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:09:30 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-194-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:11:14 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.11.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:16:52 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:48 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-132-169.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:20:20 sykopomp: Always possible to come back. :) I was in Indiana for a while. Horrible. Nice being back. 00:21:09 -!- kanru` [~user@61-228-150-180.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:23:56 He has been digging the substrates of cll http://xach.livejournal.com/306791.html this takes time. 00:25:48 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-65.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:26:40 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-65.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:20 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:02 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:34:08 ChibaPet: what's wrong with Indiana? 00:35:35 edgar-rft [~me@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:36:47 xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 00:37:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.129.171] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.97.1] 00:39:14 daem0n [~yaargh@host-84-13-244-121.opaltelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:14 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@host-84-13-244-121.opaltelecom.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:39:14 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 00:50:01 LiamH [~healy@pool-74-96-15-121.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:29 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:39 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:45 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 00:54:52 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:55:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl081-060-042.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:59:12 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:02:13 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:08 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 01:03:10 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has joined #lisp 01:12:06 -!- antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:19:24 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:20:24 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:21:45 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:45 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:32:33 pnq [~nick@AC816916.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:43 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 01:36:14 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:50 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:37:37 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:38:02 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@173-9-35-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:41 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:38:51 gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-mhrsfxtjimtpagqe] has joined #lisp 01:40:19 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has joined #lisp 01:41:54 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:15 gko [~gko@59-120-37-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:37 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:45:22 jasom: You name it. 01:48:19 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:49:08 __dict__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has joined #lisp 01:50:37 -!- flowfinder [~flowfinde@24.39.127.119] has quit [Quit: flowfinder] 01:51:37 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has joined #lisp 01:53:26 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:07 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:43 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:01:19 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:02:16 pjb: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/68378772a3ac8843 "Sez something for the future of Lisp if they're using it in 2019... " 02:03:34 :-) 02:03:55 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:03:58 That's actually my bet: since lisp is 50 yo, I'm betting it'll still be used in 50 years. 02:04:14 There are a lot of younger programming languages that are forgotten. 02:04:49 FWIW i got a nice big stack of old IBM BASIC 3.0 manuals last week. Was neat to see how little has changed. 02:05:00 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:00 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:05:19 That betting strategy would have the roman empire still in power. 02:05:30 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:31 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:05:55 and are there 50 years left? 02:05:59 The key problem of civilization remains sewage. 02:06:01 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:01 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:06:10 Everything eventually drowns in its own crap. 02:06:30 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:30 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:06:43 Social networks turn toxic, software systems accumulate technical debt, the center cannot hold. 02:07:22 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:23 Zhivago: you exaggerate 02:07:29 Where? 02:07:41 springz [~springz@118.143.64.134] has joined #lisp 02:07:45 so, Trantor is decaying :) 02:08:43 Personally, my bet is that software will undergo a statistical revolution and most of the stuff we have today will become irrelevant. 02:08:56 -!- k9quaint [~k9quaint@unaffiliated/k9quaint] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:04 Much as has happened in AI. 02:09:43 Zhivago: the emphasis on statisics for machine-learning is bad. 02:09:53 The color green is evil. 02:10:19 Do you have a point? 02:10:37 really - google search results seem less relevant now than they did in 2004. 02:10:55 mon_key: because some of the things that still get called "AI" by general population are things better solved by statistical AI 02:11:06 What does that have to do with statistics for machine-learning? 02:11:09 as for Google search... we have much bigger "SEO" spam 02:11:33 tons of data, tons of new sources of relationships, etc etc 02:11:35 That's mostly due to drowning in its own crap -- an ecosystem of parasites has matured. 02:11:57 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 02:11:57 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 02:11:57 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 02:12:06 what definitely changed is that I no longer go several pages deep in any search engine 02:12:25 p_l: because you expect crap? 02:12:40 partially that 02:12:57 but also a lot of my searches can be found just as easily by using wikipedia 02:13:17 p_l: Yes, wiki trumps statistics 02:13:35 So you think that wiki is rule based? 02:13:56 for a lot of other stuff google has answers in first page, or has links to page that can serve as exploration hub 02:13:57 It's updated dynamically by lots of statistical learning machines. 02:14:04 Zhivago: moreso than google. Wiki even looks like a giant frame system 02:14:22 Zhivago: Wikipedia itself is closer to a semantic KB system 02:14:32 Bullshit. 02:14:45 It's an incoherent folksonomy at best. 02:15:03 With no support for inference or deduction. 02:15:28 Zhivago: nah. you exaggerate. 02:15:34 Where? 02:15:50 okay, depends on specific area. And I agree that deduction/inference is missing 99% of the time. But I didn't see any dynamic, statistical systems 02:15:59 I might be missing something, though, so please share 02:16:00 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:20 p_l: i think they are there but more for housekeeping 02:17:24 p_l: Humans. 02:18:01 anyway, regarding rule/expert systems I started noticing that apparently they escaped into "bussiness intelligence" field 02:18:29 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-132-169.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:30 p_l: When did you have that "insight" ? 02:18:44 Zhivago: "statistical" part with humans is arguable, afaik. Not that we don't use statistical approach, but it's not the only one 02:18:54 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Quit: o/] 02:19:04 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:04 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:05 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 02:19:27 p_l: It's the overwhelmingly frequently used system. 02:19:33 mon_key: quite recently. They don't seem, and probably aren't in many places, comparable with a proper expert system, though 02:19:40 p_l: my impression is that rule/expert have been the domain of "business intelligence" since the onset of AI winter. 02:19:41 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 02:19:50 Consider things like superstition in chickens. 02:20:07 Zhivago: chickens exaggerate. 02:20:40 Zhivago: this would argue against statistical methods 02:20:49 No. 02:21:04 It's because animals use statistical induction to infer causality, etc. 02:21:09 I'm sure chicken don't do symbolic reasoning. 02:21:21 Neither do humans, almost all of the time. 02:21:22 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 02:21:25 pjb: if they can play tic-tac-toe they do :) 02:21:28 Which is why mathematics is hard. 02:21:43 It's why magical thinking is universal to all cultures. 02:21:56 ... I think I would be able to fix up a Q-learning routine for tick-tack-toe 02:22:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-3-87.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:22:51 though a minmax would be probably simpler and more effective 02:23:05 Well, perhaps symbolic reasoning is a solved problem, and indeed, we only need to add a lower layer of statistical reasoning to build AI. 02:23:28 pjb: prob. the inverse 02:23:56 It's more that symbolic reasoning is clearly unnecessary for AI. 02:24:32 Zhivago: you exaggerate. How is it "clearly unnecessary"? 02:24:33 But what people want isn't AI -- what they want are useful chatterbots. 02:24:52 It's clearly unnecessary since we have intelligent systems that don't do symbolic reasoning. 02:25:13 for example? 02:25:20 People. 02:25:34 Look into developmental psychology for example. 02:25:47 Humans are intelligent long before they're capable of symbolic reasoning. 02:25:50 I have people so i don't need AI. 02:26:37 Zhivago: yes, and we consider learning how to do symbolic reasoning to be essential part of development. Though I might be iffy, hadn't refreshed my knowledge since two years ago 02:26:49 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:26:51 and I failed my second year in psych anyway. 02:28:47 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:29:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:31:43 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128148102.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:10 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:32 -!- gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-mhrsfxtjimtpagqe] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:45:18 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:48:39 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 02:48:51 sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:39 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:52 mon_key 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03:30:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:38:43 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 03:45:49 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 03:46:45 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:48:54 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:20:26 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:24:53 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:14 -!- benny` [~benny@i577A1F69.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:35:42 is it possible to embed a loop in a cxml:with-xml-output form? 04:39:43 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:43:29 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:43:36 __dict__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has joined 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[~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442191.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:17:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:18:03 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 05:18:39 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 05:22:43 abeaumont [~Alfredo@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 05:24:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-64-29.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 05:24:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@188-143-64-29.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 05:24:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:26:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:17 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:27:59 -!- rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-007-002.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:07 Fade: yes. 05:30:33 could you show me a simple exmple? 05:33:17 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 05:33:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129732 05:34:51 excellent. thank you 05:35:22 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:36:21 -!- sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:41:44 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 05:43:05 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:49:25 sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has joined #lisp 05:49:43 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:18 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:56 ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has joined #lisp 05:53:31 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:51 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:00:41 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 06:01:10 -!- Fare 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joined #lisp 07:09:43 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:11:01 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:12:09 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: .] 07:12:21 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:14:01 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has joined #lisp 07:15:18 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:19 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:16:26 morning 07:18:49 -!- arquebus [~arquebus@184-157-243-94.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:15 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 07:19:51 springz [~springz@118.143.64.134] has joined #lisp 07:22:53 is there something like PAIRLIS for plists? i can't seem to locate its name if there is... 07:29:17 TimKack [~user@c-2ec22a2f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 07:30:31 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:35 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-249.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:30:46 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 07:31:40 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d86a1f7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35:31 wws [~billstcla@p-74-209-22-92.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:38:46 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:16 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wvbijrnorddrnrxu] has joined #lisp 07:40:33 robot-beethoven: (mapcan #'list '(a b) '(1 2)) => (A 1 B 2) 07:40:47 is that what you're looking for? 07:41:49 -!- __dict__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:47:17 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 07:48:10 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:48:46 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-62-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:47 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-62-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:48:47 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:51:28 edgar-rft: yes, thanks. i wanted either a built-in or a one-liner 07:51:48 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:51:48 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:54:12 simplechat [~simplecha@ppp121-44-221-152.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:13 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@ppp121-44-221-152.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:54:13 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:58:33 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-181-38.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 07:58:37 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zscdfpvsjkvmebeg] has joined #lisp 08:00:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit 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[~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-224-65.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:33:53 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-65.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:34:22 caseBycase [~isson@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 08:34:38 -!- caseBycase [~isson@27.119.37.49] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:47 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-199-198.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-199-198.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:48 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:34:51 caseBycase [~isson@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 -!- caseBycase [~isson@27.119.37.49] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:56 bokuk [~bokuk@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-66-68-80-227.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:41 Can anyone point me to any good resources on learning Common Lisp? 08:41:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:41:34 poisonarms http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 08:42:04 kennyd: Thank you. 08:42:57 poisonarms: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 08:43:10 enjoy the trip poisonarms 08:43:23 and why don't people first ask what the background of new lispers is? 08:43:43 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 pinburious [~AndChat@38.sub-174-253-133.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:27 pjb: Thank you. 08:46:33 madnificent: What do you mean? 08:46:53 poisonarms: theorically, we could give different answers, depending on your "background". 08:47:05 ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:47:28 I have ADD. Just looking to try something new. I primarily use scripting languages, but I've had my fingers in many bowls. 08:47:58 you should have fun with PCL. 08:48:01 Have never seriously used anything resembling a functional language, though. 08:48:44 Yes, disfunctional languages abound. 08:49:01 s/dis/dys/ 08:51:24 Ha. 08:51:30 poisonarms: i think the PCL can be deceiving, in that it reads like a simple book but actually assumes quite a bit of background knowledge. don't get me wrong, it's a great book, but it can take a while to grok. if you haven't seen/used things like throwing errors or using classes in other languages then i think it may not be the best book for all topics. 08:51:48 poisonarms: lisp is multiparadigm btw, but the PCL's first chapter will tell you about that, i think 08:52:16 Oh I'm not new to programming or anything, but thanks for the heads up. 08:52:31 @ madnificent 08:52:39 well, welcome to te lisp wonderland 08:52:44 s/te/the/ 08:52:58 If I like it, haha. I have ADD remember? 08:55:09 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:55:30 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:57:06 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855ffe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:56 jbytecode [c1ff0931@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.255.9.49] has joined #lisp 09:00:11 is it legal here to announce a new interpreter ? 09:02:16 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:02:29 opps! it seems nobody needs an announcement 09:03:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:03:29 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:05:18 What's the recommend way to do something after a system was loaded succesfully? 09:08:13 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:09:20 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:09:22 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:09:44 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 09:09:48 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:52 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:10:41 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 09:11:03 -!- jbytecode [c1ff0931@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.255.9.49] has left #lisp 09:13:34 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:16:38 sezo [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 09:18:02 I'm scrapping ads from some page, and sending notifications when a new ad is published. how do you recommend storing all the old ads on disk? would you use a database, sexp, something else? 09:19:42 i want to be notified when a new ad is published, or when an old one is republished, if it reduced price of the item, etc. so I have to store all the ads of interest 09:25:54 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:25:57 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:26:01 stlifey [~stlifey@27.39.149.207] has joined #lisp 09:26:44 opened [~point9@180.191.141.70] has joined #lisp 09:26:45 how do you install but not load a package w/quicklisp? 09:27:05 or are they already all downloaded? 09:27:37 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 09:28:30 Hello. I am having a bit of hard time putting macros to use. Can someone recommend a reading that could be of any help? 09:29:08 opened: try http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 09:29:17 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:29:23 and for advanced use there's "let over lambda" (book and online) 09:29:35 setheus [~setheus@cpe-72-190-112-13.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:42 or "on lisp" I think 09:29:59 flip214: Thanks. I'll give it a read. 09:30:11 "lol" is not on line 09:30:19 -!- springz [~springz@118.143.64.134] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:30:26 -!- smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:30:52 ezakimak: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap3.html ? 09:31:48 looks like several chapters are, just not all. 09:32:01 didn't know that. i went ahead and bought a copy 09:32:19 yes, I'm happy with my dead-tree version, too ... easier to look through 09:32:23 It's easier to read from the book anyway. And this one is definitely worth having. 09:32:35 i bought pretty much the whole standard cl library 09:32:47 Also, supporting the author and all that. 09:32:58 except for the fully free-online ones ("on lisp" and "pcl") 09:33:07 I've got PCL. 09:33:08 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 09:33:26 i even ordered "land of lisp" 09:34:38 hlavaty [~user@91-64-129-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:03 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:35:29 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:35:47 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:36:47 yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has joined #lisp 09:37:02 i would recommend 'on lisp' more than 'pcl' for macros 09:37:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:38:21 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host85-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:26 i read cl:aia, then pcl, and am now on acl 09:38:47 next up will be keene and on lisp 09:39:09 last will be art of mop and lol 09:39:25 a lot to digest 09:40:24 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:41:56 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.11.195] has joined #lisp 09:42:38 "on lisp" was good for me 09:42:53 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:43:09 pg gets obsessed with anaphors and wanting everything to be scheme though, be warned 09:43:11 i still need to finish the projects in pcl 09:43:14 ezakimak, what's cl:aia? 09:43:27 Posterdati [~tapioca@host85-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:43:28 shapiro's "cl:an interactive approach" 09:44:03 ezakimak, you could also replace couple or more with PAIP in your reading list ;-) 09:44:05 i think that is the best free resource to start w/because it has a text-book format w/excercises in each chapter 09:44:45 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:44:51 i saw PAIP, didn't think it would apply to me 09:45:41 ezakimak: PAIP should definitely be on your list 09:46:00 but i have no need for AI 09:46:17 but AI is not the point of PAIP :) 09:46:26 oh. so it needs a better title? 09:46:39 BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:56 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:13 ezakimak: there's a good retrospective on PAIP by Norvig on the Internet 09:47:29 ezakimak: Norvig says PAIP still stands as a good CL book 09:47:37 with the AI bits being somewhat outdated 09:48:01 unfortunately his new AI book uses a pythonish pseudocode for algorithms. 09:49:09 well, i'll have to get PAIP then 09:57:53 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:03:31 if I do (write '(:foo 10 :bar 20) stream), and then later using read on the same file, am I guaranteed to get that list back? 10:05:05 if you pass :readably t (or otherwise bind *print-readably*) and if you use with-standard-io-syntax around both read and write, then... probably 10:06:04 are those necessary? i was hoping i can just write it, and that it would work on all implementations (including one implementation writing to a disk and other one reading from it) 10:06:37 stat_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-227-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:42 have just ccl in here though so i can't test 10:10:44 anyone here use json-rpc? 10:12:04 -!- mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:12:05 in order to guarantee that, no matter the dynamic state of the program, you print in standard CL syntax, you need *print-readably* set or bound to T within some construct which makes sure that you're using the standard readtable, print-base, read base, and so on 10:13:15 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@27.39.149.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:26 -!- gko [~gko@59-120-37-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 10:14:24 is the guarantee only when same implementation is doing reading/writing, or even when one implementation writes a file and other reads it 10:15:49 i guess it should work for all since it's just a lisp list 10:16:33 right. Provided the write call succeeds, under those circumstances (with standard io syntax and print-readably) the read call should construct conceptually the same object 10:18:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-131.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:32 ezakimak: see Casting Spels in Lisp Conrad Barski, M.D. http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 10:18:46 i saw that 10:21:30 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:08 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-50.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:38 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:27:33 -!- sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:35:09 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:02 pjb: Isn't that basically an older version of the now-published Land of Lisp? 10:38:50 i think land of lisp is much longer 10:44:08 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 10:49:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:55:47 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:37 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 11:01:55 -!- stat_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-227-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:03:40 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:24 jjkola_work_ [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 11:05:01 -!- jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:05:44 -!- jjkola_work_ is now known as jjkola_work 11:09:20 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:09:38 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121-98-128-74.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:53 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:15:13 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:15:17 cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 11:19:37 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 11:20:17 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:24:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny 11:32:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:38:59 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:38 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:42 SHODAN [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:42:29 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:54 mucker [~mucker@183.83.15.231] has joined #lisp 11:53:20 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855ffe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:53:57 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.yhikad.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 12:00:15 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:00:48 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 12:04:40 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:07:33 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:09:08 sds_ [~sam@74.113.160.197] has joined #lisp 12:09:35 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:27 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 -!- sds_ [~sam@74.113.160.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:14:41 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:25 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:15:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:16:39 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0B8C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:18 hitecnologys1 [~noname@46.233.207.3] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 mofaph [~user@119.136.125.68] has joined #lisp 12:21:44 I define a structure type with a float type. But giving an integer literal returns "wrong type". Is there a solution without writing my own constructor? Perhaps a trick using :constructor? 12:22:14 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:38 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.25.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:42 why do you declare the structure member types? 12:23:11 clhs defstruct 12:23:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 12:23:12 to help against programming mistakes? 12:23:50 flip214: it might help, or it might not. type declarations in cl are an optimization device, not something that you can rely on for compile-time checking. 12:23:51 fe[nl]ix: thanks for the link, but I read the documentation - that's why I asked about a _trick_ with :constructor 12:24:05 flip214: if you want to make sure that only certain types are used, use check-type. 12:24:09 H4ns: I'm running (safety 3) per default 12:24:19 flip214: that does not matter at all. 12:24:36 flip214: you could also use (or float integer) as type specification if that'd work. 12:24:39 and if you need another answer, I use type declarations for performance, too. 12:25:15 well, isn't there some simple way to have that autocoerced? especially if it's a literal that can be losslessly transformed? 12:25:17 flip214: good riddance. 12:25:18 yakov_ [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has joined #lisp 12:25:25 flip214: use &aux 12:26:38 sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:58 flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/+2S3W 12:27:28 fe[nl]ix: yes, thanks. got it already. 12:28:02 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:28:34 -!- yakov [~yakov@77.72.122.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:29:08 is the convention %name or name% for internal things? 12:29:09 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 12:29:37 I think I've seen both ways already... 12:29:57 well, just like the earmuffs probably. some use it, some don't. 12:31:31 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:32:21 benkard 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12:53:44 iLogical [~iLogical@187.59.72.125] has joined #lisp 12:54:14 -!- kanru` [~user@114-24-9-137.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:54:53 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:54:56 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:56:43 are there any better docs for hunchentoot besides the terribly formatted page weitz.de/hunchentoot ? 12:57:17 ezakimak: that is the official documentation. how can it be improved? 12:57:57 it reads like legalese 12:58:17 no navigation, headings, formatting, just blobs of dense paragraphs 12:58:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:58:39 maybe it's missing a stylesheet? 12:58:52 ezakimak: you're welcome to provide one. 12:59:04 Personally, I never trust documentation. 12:59:11 You might consider reading the source. 12:59:21 the stylesheet is broken 12:59:33 ezakimak: how? 12:59:38 ezakimak: at the end there's an index. 12:59:40 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/clixdoc.xsl 12:59:55 doesn't look like xsl 13:00:07 brunocoelho [~brunocoel@177.133.122.199] has joined #lisp 13:00:14 oh. nm. ff does something funky w/it 13:00:30 er, that would be konqueror 13:00:45 oh. much better in ff. 13:00:54 ezakimak: ah, so you're using a browser that does not support xsl? 13:01:04 i guess it doesn't 13:01:16 kanru` [~user@114-24-13-216.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:23 much better. 13:01:26 ezakimak: that is a fair critique, though. there should be a .html version of the documentation in each release. i'll open an issue to do that. 13:01:27 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:20 wow, so that's what i've been missing. it's actually well done. 13:02:21 snearch [~snearch@f053012006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:26 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:02:47 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:17 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joined #lisp 13:23:20 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:36 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:23:42 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:02 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:26:12 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 -!- ferada [~ferada@ltea-178-013-022-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:28:55 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:30:53 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:46 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 13:32:37 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:26 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:42 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:33:43 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d855ffe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:35:32 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:38:00 -!- opened [~point9@180.191.141.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:38:23 hrm. my hunchentoot dispatch handler isn't working for some reason 13:39:36 trying exactly what's in the last post here: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/6a2f8f41cfaf73b3/13542f9f1c006323?#13542f9f1c006323 13:40:00 i just get resource not found 13:40:04 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:15 ezakimak: you'd better read the documentation 13:40:33 am i missing something obvious? 13:40:36 ezakimak: the post is rather old. 13:41:33 ezakimak: how did you start hunchentoot? 13:41:59 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:16 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 i made an 'acceptor, setting the :document-root and passed that object to start 13:44:01 you need to instantiate an 'easy-acceptor, then it should work 13:46:38 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 13:47:55 hrm. not sure the difference, but now i get a back trace 13:54:31 jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:41 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:55:45 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.15.231] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:59:30 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:19 -!- mofaph [~user@119.136.125.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:19 -!- TimKack [~user@c-2ec22a2f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:10 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:30 stlifey [~stlifey@27.39.149.189] has joined #lisp 14:07:18 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[~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:57:32 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:57:55 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 14:58:01 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:35 i believe some do 14:58:42 i think rucksack can 14:58:53 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:00:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-113.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:00:21 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:30 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:01:39 -!- nicdev_ [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:42 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:49 -!- limetree_ [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:01:49 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[~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 16:22:12 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:22:23 b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:36 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.14] has joined #lisp 16:22:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.14] has quit [Changing host] 16:22:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:24:55 Google is turning up mixed answers, so here I am: does one have to provide links to download source code, list of software used and its authors if one hosts a website using hunchentoot and sbcl 16:25:17 but having no intention of distributing the code of the website? 16:25:21 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 16:25:37 b_: no 16:25:44 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:26:16 pnpuff [~uu@host21-90-dynamic.247-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:26:16 -!- pnpuff [~uu@host21-90-dynamic.247-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 16:26:16 pnpuff [~uu@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 -!- pinburious [~AndChat@38.sub-174-253-133.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:26:51 pinburious [~AndChat@38.sub-174-253-133.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:50 b_: both are under BSD licenses. 16:32:31 -!- pinburious [~AndChat@38.sub-174-253-133.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 16:33:54 -!- zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:36:01 b_: about removing write-byte thing, yes speed matching writing to file just shows that SBCL default streams are pretty efficient 16:37:13 -!- vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: vervic] 16:37:20 thank you, all, its been a pretty nervous week, I bypassed IT and showed the system to founders directly 16:37:39 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-zscdfpvsjkvmebeg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:37:53 there jaw dropped at the speed of it, they are used to system struggling with 3k orders, mine was flying on 11k orders 16:38:10 b_: so thats pretty much lower limit on how fast you can make cl-store without using (speed 3). Actually, I think sbcl hash tables use a lock by default, so maybe adding a few SBCL specific options to creating cl-store its circularity check hashes may speed it up more. I know I get a large speedup by setting cl-store:*check-for-circs* to nil, so around 30-50% of cpu usage is actually circularity checking and hashtable access 16:38:12 but they now say that i am the point of failure and huge risk 16:39:19 maxm-: when i do c-f-c to nil, it takes a long time because it ends up saving whole objects again and again to disk.. 16:39:30 as i have diff indexes on same objects 16:39:39 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #lisp 16:39:41 b_: well its only to be used when you know you don't have backpointers 16:40:19 ok, so now way to go is looking up sbcl specific speedups.. 16:40:20 cxml docstring conversion with elisp http://paste.lisp.org/+2S3Z 16:40:21 i see 16:41:26 about my lisp project: now they say, if something happens to me, who will support it etc (valid reasons) 16:41:58 so they have suggested i form my own company.. they are going to talk to their board members about it 16:41:59 about your situation btw, sometimes if you a grunt you have to do grunt work. I remember my 1st web job, the boss (who hired me) went away for a week, letting me use OT. I designed a beatiful framework on top of JDBC that basically resembled hybernate :-) ie add a field class -> db auto-updated, everything done automaticlly etc.. Boss came back, and his reaction was one huge WTF. "I asked you to build a track, and you built me a 16:41:59 ferarry. Next guy I ask to code on this, won't make sense of any of it" 16:42:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:42:37 so he made me rewrite entire thing using pure JDBC, and lots of repetitive code.. (I still won, coz I used emacs macro to generate most of it :-) 16:43:06 good old dotcom days and jsp 1.0 16:43:14 b_: Tell them you are immune to getting hit by busses. 16:43:51 hlavaty` [~user@91-64-129-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:14 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:44 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-64-129-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:47:51 i fought my corner today though.., they want me to implement this system (end to end) for a small website we have (only~100 orders a day) and then they will think about it 16:48:14 100 orders cl-store can handle within a second even 3000 16:48:48 so i am thinking if it works, then how i go about a company.., i would like the server to be in warehouse lan but i would like it to be mine 16:49:15 ie they shouldnt get to it (even for no other reason that I dont feel like ) 16:51:34 i am sad because, now i feel alone in the team (java people) they are awesome but i just feel everything could be much better 16:52:56 its only this forum i found i see people i look upto 16:53:32 in the end i will have to give up lisp and code this system again from java (as maxm- ) 16:53:34 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:34 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:53:38 in java* 16:54:31 b_: you could always take your superior Lisp code to their competition. 16:56:34 yes, but its i am attached to this company, i joined it with founders and we grew from no orders to around 3k orders a day, then i wanted to study computer science as i am an electrical engg 16:56:49 i interviewed ctos and i choose finally this CTO 16:56:54 urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-99-185.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:00 in the end months (now) i found lisp 16:57:05 through sicp 16:57:33 and i joined this company back and CTO feels threatened by me (he revealed today) that people striaght come talking to me about issues 16:57:35 bypassing him 16:57:38 and it bugs him 16:57:50 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-81-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:12 but the company needs this system i have built 16:58:19 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:19 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:58:25 yes, i can stop thinking about it and just leave 16:58:33 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-81-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:42 convince a few other people to learn lisp and work on your software. 16:59:09 He's right: it's a bad position to be in to have you being the only person who can work on the software. 16:59:34 But you can fix that, if you can convince the other people working at your company to join you... 16:59:37 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 yes.. 17:00:47 Documentation is the answer. Thorough documentation. 17:00:52 If you can't convince anyone else that writing it in Lisp is a good idea, then, well...guess you have to rewrite it in Java. 17:01:39 yes :( 17:02:19 hey b_ this is a publicly logged channel, be careful 17:02:42 KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has joined #lisp 17:02:55 but yeah welcome to labor capital relations 2012 17:03:14 Java's not *that* terrible. Maybe if your plan doesn't work out this time, you can try Clojure next time. Your java hacker co-workers might find that more agreeable. 17:03:38 RenJuan: thanks, i got carried away 17:04:14 b_: dude you are in an awesome position. start your own company! 17:04:32 i struggle with my prejudices on clojure. It seems fugly stoopid to me but don't want to push that judgment 17:04:48 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:05:01 I've never actually used it, so no real opinion here. 17:05:15 RenJuan: same. 17:05:17 it doesnt make sense: but for me, I 'like' lisp. i 'feel' thinking in it comes naturally to me 17:05:19 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:19 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:05:30 in java or anyof these gimmicky names with Js in them 17:05:33 althought s/seems/is/ 17:05:39 Clojure seems reasonable to me, but I won't give it serious thought until it can compile to native code somewhere. 17:05:39 they dont connect with me 17:06:13 Unless they standardise on CL, meh. 17:06:19 native code compilation would kill it's "pure java"ness 17:06:21 ChibaPet: it can. 17:06:32 j_king: or you could just use ABCL. 17:06:39 ChibaPet: at least, theoretically. It compiles to java bytecode, then you run gcj on that to compile to native code. 17:07:01 No idea if that actually works or not, of course. :) 17:07:07 foom: Not quite sufficient. 17:07:10 sykopomp: I could if my application really needed the JVM for some reason. So far SBCL works pretty good for my targets. :) 17:07:16 *its notification of future typo non-correction for this channel 17:07:29 ChibaPet: why? 17:07:40 j_king: I'm talking about those times you really 'need' Java. Whatever that means. 17:07:50 sykopomp: of course. 17:09:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:25 saw an interesting talk on infoq about lockless algos and it got me thinking about pauseless gc and sbcl internals... I wish there was more time available on demand. 17:09:32 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:09:48 foom: I wish to avoid Java in any form as an interim step. 17:10:05 hlavaty`` [~user@91-65-217-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:17 ChibaPet: that's a pretty non-technical requirement. Do you have a irrational hatred of the word "Java"? 17:10:47 foom: You can't envision any other possibilities than that? 17:10:57 j_king: what is "pauseless gc" 17:11:24 ChibaPet: no, not for your requirement as stated. 17:11:34 foom: I bet someone at work could give you more options for wishing to avoid Java. 17:11:38 -!- hlavaty` [~user@91-64-129-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:42 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-247.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:11:49 clojure could have native code pretty soon: http://vmkit.llvm.org/ 17:11:58 ChibaPet: people I work with use lots and lots of java all day long. 17:12:02 dekuked: Yeah, I imagine it will happen before too long. 17:12:36 saage [~saage@201.11.39.67] has joined #lisp 17:12:37 -!- saage [~saage@201.11.39.67] has quit [Changing host] 17:12:37 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 17:12:47 I went through a book with clojure, really liked it, then started programming in it. the error messages alone drove me to cl. 17:13:11 about* 17:13:43 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:24 also the java 7 bugs, that's what really drove me away 17:15:52 mon_key, prolly a implementation where interpreter threads never block due to gc 17:17:50 RenJuan: what would be the target applications for such an animal - HFT, Realtime systems? 17:17:55 snearch [~snearch@f053012006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:18 i guess 17:18:22 mon_key: exactly. highly concurrent systems can generate large heaps which cause pauses during the collection phase 17:18:52 not necessarily real-time, just concurrent 17:19:03 or parallel, etc. 17:19:10 RT people think gc is Satan 17:19:57 I'm starting to believe that tightly-controlled GC can be acceptable for RT. 17:20:01 are there examples of Lisp-like languages which GC and don't pause? 17:20:11 mon_key: Lisp. 17:20:38 ChibaPet: you can certainly have a deterministic/realtime GC 17:21:09 many lisp machines had no GC and crashed when they ran out :D 17:21:32 oGMo: Right. Control your garbage creation, and run it tightly enough that time given to it can be exactly predicted. 17:22:06 and afaik, it's not about not pausing, it's about guaranteeing a bounded pause and only at certain times 17:22:21 Right. 17:22:21 pkhuong: I don't follow. 17:22:23 and avoiding contention 17:22:54 as far as i was able to gather from the lockless algo talk 17:23:07 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:13 http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Lock-free-Algorithms#HN2 17:23:28 j_king: lock free has a very specific meaning, fwiw. 17:23:37 *j_king* nods. 17:23:40 It doesn't simply mean "does not use locks" 17:24:17 and they show some interested numbers with different approaches in the video 17:24:35 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:35 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:25:28 s/interested/interesting/ 17:26:19 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:20 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:26:49 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:50 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:27:19 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:28:43 extranapkins [~lolmatt@bas1-toronto03-3096534682.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:30:21 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.158.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:31:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:20 Just letting people know, this lisp job is still open: http://denver.craigslist.org/sof/3005966457.html 17:33:49 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:33:53 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.235.166] has joined #lisp 17:34:15 pnq [~nick@ACA3420E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:12 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@91-65-217-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:32 hlavaty`` [~user@91-65-217-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:08 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:45:39 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@91-65-217-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:18 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:51 you work there as a developer Quadrescence ? 17:52:08 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-166-64.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:53:16 yes i do (but im not in charge of that ad or the employment) 17:56:35 dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 -!- dan64 [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:58:27 smanek [~smanek@204.28.125.157] has joined #lisp 17:59:35 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:00:17 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.7] has joined #lisp 18:00:17 well I assume it's not the shop b_ was talking about above :) 18:01:06 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:05:39 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 18:05:49 dan64- [~dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:48 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 18:09:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:42 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 lazyfingers [~lazyfinge@78.84.172.207] has joined #lisp 18:13:04 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:44 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 18:15:18 -!- hitecnologys1 [~noname@46.233.207.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:59 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:18:34 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has 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20:34:26 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wifofqnleftakfew] has joined #lisp 20:35:07 considering what little I changed in my code to get it working, I suspect the out-of-memory errors were related to pretty-printing long lists of dependencies... 20:35:17 (using sbcl) 20:35:46 ccl wasn't eating all memory, but correctly printing lots of spaces (though the result was as ugly as useless) 20:36:34 the noob I still am here tend to consolidate a very good feeling about ccl as a very good implementation 20:39:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:40:18 I like ccl. The authors are quite responsive to bug report, if a bit grumpy and defensive about criticism and suggestions. 20:40:30 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-166-64.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40:33 see #ccl 20:40:35 I'm yet to meet with a CL hacker not being that way :) 20:41:16 that's not actually true, but I couldn't help :) 20:41:54 what a day 20:42:24 hi 20:42:56 wassup 20:43:42 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:44:58 sick of spurious warnings and uncontrollable optimization settings? asdf-condition-control.asd is for you. 20:45:46 Fare: tell us more 20:46:32 it leverages xcvb-driver's code for same 20:46:51 so it wraps compilation in with-controlled-compiler-conditions 20:47:02 that you can tweak via *uninteresting-conditions* 20:47:24 which can match conditions based on a predicate, type, string (for simple-condition's). 20:47:39 you can have additional conditions to mask during loading. 20:47:52 every mention of xvcb makes me depressed by realizing how much undone TODO's I have before it 20:48:19 if only asdf was sligtly worse, I would switch, but it has the "annoying as hell but just good enough" thing going for it 20:48:24 it also saves your favorite optimization settings and sets them before every compilation - no matter how libraries may change them. 20:48:33 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.235.166] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:48:38 actually, working on xcvb has helped me improve asdf a lot. 20:48:49 "before it" / "before TODO try to switch project to xvcb" 20:48:49 Is it part of ASDF? 20:50:48 -!- paddington [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:07 drl [~lat@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 20:51:45 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:53:27 LiamH: asdf-condition-control is distributed with xcvb. It's an asdf extension. 20:53:40 as little as possible gets distributed with asdf. 20:53:50 Oh, OK. 20:54:07 I'm hesitating about making asdf-condition-control an official asdf-contrib. 20:54:11 probably should be 20:54:45 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:55:46 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:32 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:57 -!- sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:58:18 Yup, added it to asdf-contrib. 20:59:04 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.185.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:02:09 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:02:45 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:06:08 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 21:06:45 jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 21:09:52 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:15 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:10:58 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:12:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-92-50-99-185.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:20 SurlyFrog [~Adium@c-24-118-228-15.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:22 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:34 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 tewk [~tewk@katan.cs.utah.edu] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 Is there a #+ reader form fro gnu common lisp e.g. #+cmu 21:18:51 tewk: http://www.cliki.net/features 21:18:52 tewk: look in *features*. 21:18:52 tewk: check *features* if you're in clisp 21:19:28 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 madnificent: You mean GCL? 21:20:27 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:46 oh clisp is called gnu clisp 21:20:51 sellout: apparently then 21:20:51 GCL must be a really good CL, because I never get complaints about my code breaking on it  21:21:05 LMAO 21:22:05 sellout: hehe 21:22:09 tewk: GCL is dead. Don't use it. If you mean clisp, it's clisp. 21:22:52 heh 21:23:04 #+clisp, got it thanks 21:23:19 or use ECL for another kyoto cl descendent 21:23:41 sellout: are you the author of external-program? 21:24:06 I'm trying to provide same kind of functionality more portably with inferior-shell. 21:24:38 tewk: see how important it is to know the right names? In general for an implementation named X, there's a feature X (cmucl being the exception, since its executable is named lisp and its feature is cmu instead of cmucl). 21:25:23 Fare: I am. 21:25:33 Fare: Where is inferior shell? 21:25:43 in qitab 21:26:00 Fare: I don't know what that means  21:26:04 -!- poisonarms [~poisonarm@cpe-66-68-80-227.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:26:11 http://common-lisp.net/project/qitab/ 21:26:17 sellout: M-x shell RET gives you the inferior shell. 21:26:28 doesn't yet do all that external-program does, but is already portable to all CL implementations. 21:26:59 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:27:15 Fare: for varying values of all, i presume 21:27:22 I'd like an iolib-inferior-shell extension to do more while inferior-shell remains the portable one 21:27:27 madnificent, ok, not to genera 21:27:39 -!- nitouken [~nitouken@50-193-97-142-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 21:27:45 ABCL? 21:28:27 yes, it's supported. 21:28:36 oh, i hadn't expected that. cool! 21:28:54 I suppose even genera could be supported, via a pipe to the underlying host. 21:29:11 s/pipe/socket/ 21:29:34 I'm not going to implement genera support any time soon, though - but patches welcome 21:29:34 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:31:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-108-80-231-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:29 Fare: Cool. Looks like it potentially does more than external-program. Two things that are requirements for me to deprecate external-program: 1) must have separate functions for running and starting, :WAIT is so wrong and 2) at least as simple as external-program for the basic case of running something and maybe passing input/retrieving output. 21:32:52 if the package of external-program can be kept we'd gain compatibility without having to port things to a new library. 21:33:14 sellout: that's what I have in iolib :) 21:33:34 madnificent: Right  it might just gain a dependency on trivial-shell. 21:34:02 I have 2) already 21:34:25 I don't understand "running and starting" - you mean starting and waiting? 21:34:32 Fare: Yeah. 21:34:48 Fare: In external program RUN blocks, START doesn't. 21:34:57 for portability's sake, inferior-shell cannot assume an asynchronous model - use threads for asynchronous treatment. 21:35:10 iolib-inferior-shell will be able to provide asynchronous treatment. 21:35:37 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wifofqnleftakfew] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:59 Fare: That's fine  so long as you don't have two completely different functions merged into one with a flag to choose between them. (which is what :WAIT does). 21:37:19 -!- dekuked [~user@mail.kesnermorrissey.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:37:24 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@204.9.220.45] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 21:38:04 sellout: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/os/create-process-unix.lisp#L259 21:38:13 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:28 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 create-process is entirely asynchronous, run-program is synchronous and returns the stdout&stderr as strings or octet vectors 21:39:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-57.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:40:03 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, that's much better than :WAIT :) You should split IO lib into like a dozen libraries, though :P 21:40:24 no need to, you can load the subsystems separately 21:40:33 this is CL, not perl 21:40:52 were I a perlmonger, iolib would have been 40-50 modules 21:41:24 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, but without documentation, it's really hard to find the pieces you want, IMO. So, maybe documentation instead of splitting it up ;) 21:42:08 I'm here, your neighborly human documentation 21:42:20 ask and you shall be answered 21:42:30 zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has joined #lisp 21:42:48 fe[nl]ix: is there a deadtree format of said documentation 21:43:10 I'm neither dead nor a tree 21:43:26 fe[nl]ix: Great, can you give me an overview of all the things that iolib provides? 21:43:27 actually I'm just picturing large life size cardboard cut out 21:43:41 I think we should stick to irc format fe[nl]ix 21:43:44 mveety [~mveety@66.33.236.136] has joined #lisp 21:44:03 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:46:01 luckily we have the readme of repl-utilities these days... without documentation i wouldn't have been able to do anything with hunchentoot (for example). but if people blatantly refuse to write it we might be lucky with docstrings 21:46:08 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.11.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:46:09 vervic [~vervic@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:46:48 (or manifest for that matter) 21:46:54 madnificent: fe[nl]ix is not a fan of docstrings, either ;) 21:47:05 great 21:47:30 sellout: an I/O multiplexer, syscalls, high-level sockets, an alternative to pathnames, a fork of osicat using the aforementioned, gray streams, another stream layer similar to simple-streams, create-process & co. 21:49:24 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:49:33 that is, a fork of trivial-gray-streams and a file-descriptor stream library using that fork 21:49:48 and many little utilities 21:49:50 -!- kanru` [~user@61-228-150-180.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:51:05 -!- b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120423122928]] 21:51:26 -!- jasox [~user@178.239.26.130] has left #lisp 21:51:26 https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/base/defobsolete.lisp, https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/base/defalias.lisp, https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/base/deffoldable.lisp 21:52:27 sellout: anything that you might fancy in that list ? 21:53:36 also, a fork of TFB's conduits 21:54:21 -!- dnolen [~user@12.130.123.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:54:40 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:00 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, I like those things. But see, when I'm looking for something like them, I don't think "oh, iolib!" I think smaller libs make it more obvious that something is the right tool, and I think the docs would make it more likely that I'd find iolib versions when searching. 21:56:14 iolib is obviously cool. But, I've basically used it as a socket lib and not realized that it had so much and not seen any reason to spend time to go through the whole thing to map out what it contains. 21:57:26 well, maintaining 10-15 libraries separately would be a nightmare 21:57:46 especially since their internals are so tightly coupled 21:59:38 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.29.30] has joined #lisp 22:00:30 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011d57.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:41 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 22:06:10 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-113-159.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:01 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:24 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:15:13 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0B8C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:09 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 -!- saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has quit [Changing host] 22:17:10 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 22:19:35 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:21:51 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 22:23:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25:53 -!- zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:26:53 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:09 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-193-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:29:13 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-193-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:31:28 shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has joined #lisp 22:32:09 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:35:40 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:09 sds_ [~sam@cl-pat-tr.clearspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:45 -!- janpaulbultmann [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - 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