00:01:21 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:39 masq-: Oh, actually slightly different  it's truncated to the width of the frame your edit buffer is in, even if the minibuffer is larger. 00:06:01 hey sellout 00:06:05 that pull request is still pending 00:06:27 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:07:02 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:07:45 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-188-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:39 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:12:05 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@gateway/tor-sasl/mattsg/x-78535695] has quit [Quit: Matt_S_G] 00:13:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-242-77.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 00:13:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-242-77.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:13:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:14:12 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:55 -!- jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:16:16 jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:36 Ralith: Yikes, sorry. Fallen behind on a lot of things :/ 00:16:48 no worries; hasn't been an issue yet 00:20:37 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:21:50 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 00:22:06 I'm confused about the structure of lists. As I understand it, they are linked lists, correct? How can (reverse somelist) contain the same elements as somelist without modifying the elements if this is the case? 00:22:06 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:22:20 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 00:22:36 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:22:57 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:02 jack_rabbit: it's a new list containing the values in each node. 00:23:16 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:23:28 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:36 arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.167] has joined #lisp 00:23:37 jack_rabbit: nreverse is allowed to actually modify the conses themselves. 00:23:43 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 00:23:49 how can that be though? (first (reverse somelist)) is eq (first (last (somelist))) but "asdf" is not eq "asdf" 00:24:22 Oh wait. 00:24:27 jack_rabbit: But "asdf" is eq to itself. 00:24:28 1. last gives you the last *cons cell*, not element. 00:24:34 Lists just hold pointers to the items. 00:24:47 2. "asdf" is not necessarily "eq" to another "asdf" 00:24:48 correct. 00:25:03 So (reverse somelist) is a new list holding the pointers to all the items in the old list, just in reverse. 00:25:14 yes 00:25:19 Cool. 00:27:39 -!- bieber [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:37:15 mal__ [~mal@www.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:38 -!- yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-50-18-131-205.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:38 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:38 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:38 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:38 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:39 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:39 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] 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[~rajesh.na@117.203.1.135] has joined #lisp 00:57:30 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 00:57:39 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:00:30 peterhil [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 01:02:01 cfdm` [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 01:02:45 -!- cfdm [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:06:56 jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:36 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:09:41 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:09:59 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:10:30 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:33 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:26 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:16:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:19:06 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 01:19:10 -!- arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:32 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:19:49 vinian [~vinian@218.241.129.62] has joined #lisp 01:21:27 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:36 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:55 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:24:38 what's the best way to compile lisp to C? 01:24:46 ecl 01:25:23 Check what-implementation is at telnet://clis.informatimago.com:8101 01:25:25 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:29 the best way is not to 01:25:43 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-20-172.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:17 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-20-172.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:47 arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.167] has joined #lisp 01:31:13 mensch [~mensch@pool-71-127-8-182.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:28 why not? it will give people more incentive to write code in lisp 01:36:31 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 01:36:57 i don't follow 01:37:32 Bike [~Glossina@207-225-94-191.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:41 how is compiling lisp to C more attractive than compiling to machine code? 01:38:32 -!- arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:40 compiling to portable will (probably) allow iphone and android app to use it. 01:38:51 portable C 01:38:56 lebro [~monx@ool-18bab4b8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:10 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.6.115] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:39:12 isn't iphone dev done in objective c? 01:39:32 arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:18 it can call C/C++ libs 01:40:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: brb, thomas needs your love, /msg thomas <3] 01:42:11 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:42:18 ozialien [~ozi@206.29.182.196] has joined #lisp 01:42:23 pnq [~nick@ACA37945.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:24 also easier to target systems for which a C toolchain exists 01:49:39 easier FFI to C libraries 01:51:50 pjb: heh at the selector :) 01:52:28 phadthai: you are making me hungry 01:53:05 "quand l'appetit va tout va" 01:54:51 haven't had a decent pad thai since the last time work sent me to melbourne 01:55:23 argh, sorry about that 01:55:46 here in montreal not all thai places have decent phad thai either, I know a few places I like though 01:56:06 that said 01:56:14 sometimes I have to add some extra chilli 01:56:15 i had the worst pad thai ever the second last time i went 01:56:25 decided to try this thai place that i'd seen 01:56:31 can we get back to lisp? 01:56:56 got this thing vaguely resembling rice noodles with sauce and peanuts 01:57:46 there's pretty awful stuff out there, including with tomato sauce 01:58:03 this thing had shrimp in it i think 01:58:08 unpeeled 01:58:08 apparently not 01:58:31 stassats`: it's almost as if people have interests that lisp doesn't apply to sometimes 01:58:45 Like hats. 01:59:04 magnificrab: #lisp doesn't apply for interests outside of lisp 01:59:10 fine 01:59:21 you can go to #lispcafe or #lispthairestuarant instead 01:59:48 (format t "~a: I rather like phad thai~%" 'phadthai) 01:59:56 this wasn't a channel or topic takeover btw, only a short friendly conversation 02:00:03 which I think is over anyway :) 02:00:27 we don't like friendliness around here 02:00:33 I notice that frequently 02:00:38 so it seems 02:01:13 sometimes #lisp reminds me of the days of #linuxhelp on austnet, which was largely kickbanning anyone asking for help 02:01:38 magnificrab: it's called elitism :) 02:01:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:01:40 bbl 02:01:54 and this discussion you can bring to #lispmeta 02:02:14 CL fanatics and hooligans. :) 02:03:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:04:26 stassats`: i'm not sure that culinary indulgences falls under the heading of 'talk about #lisp' either... 02:05:27 -!- ozialien [~ozi@206.29.182.196] has quit [Quit: ozialien] 02:07:56 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA37945.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:12:44 #lispcafe is made for that. 02:13:46 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-20-172.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:16:44 are there waitress on #lispcafe? 02:17:42 the tables are waited by multi-eyed highly-advanced aliens. 02:17:51 If you're into neckbeards, you'll be fine. 02:18:01 but they only serve oven-roasted nail clippings. 02:18:41 haha 02:18:51 leo2007: /join #lispcafe and ask again. 02:18:54 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.1.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:23:07 i prefer my clippings deep-fried in back fat 02:24:11 xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:25:53 -!- theos is now known as Guest31 02:25:53 -!- Guest31 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:26:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 02:26:24 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:46 e__krappi [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 02:28:23 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 02:28:34 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-132.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:28:34 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:32:29 drakej [~Marsha@cpe-173-174-140-78.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:28 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:33:50 -!- drakej [~Marsha@cpe-173-174-140-78.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:31 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:38 yroeht [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 02:40:48 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 02:42:59 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.115.61.215] has quit [Quit: paul0] 02:44:12 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:47:04 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:13 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 02:50:05 pnq [~nick@ACA35430.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:52 -- 02:58:37 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.154.227] has left #lisp 03:01:37 Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:10 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839D53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:04:24 -!- mensch [~mensch@pool-71-127-8-182.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:11:55 diginet [~kevin@ppp-70-246-17-49.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:54 is there any reason why there couldn't be a lazily evaluated lisp, would there be advantages or reasons for that? I've also read that laziness obviates the need for macros (at least to some extent), is that true? 03:13:39 no, laziness doesn't replace macros 03:14:27 and nobody stops you from making a lazily evaluated lisp 03:15:56 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:18 So there's notthing about lisp that intrinsically hinders the existence of a lazily-evaluated version? 03:17:50 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:18:23 FWIW much of Clojure is lazy 03:18:40 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:53 really? Hmm, I didn't know that 03:20:42 I think that you might mean that clojure has support for some lazy data types. 03:21:10 diginet: It would probably look something like haskell. 03:22:00 I've looked at haskell, but I despise its syntax 03:22:03 It obviates the need of macros to introduce evaluation deferring constructs implicitly for you. 03:22:08 Why? 03:22:19 What is it with programmers and syntax fetishes? 03:22:35 well, really the only syntax I like is lisp 03:22:49 It's like saying that you won't drive a car because it is not aqua-marine. 03:23:10 ehh, no, I wouldn't care if lisp used angle brackets instead of parens 03:23:15 it's the lack of syntax I like 03:23:58 clojure has a lot of syntax 03:24:14 I don't really know anything about clojure 03:24:19 I wouldn't say a lot 03:24:27 I'd say it has more than most schemes and lisps 03:24:34 combined 03:24:37 But not a lot 03:25:25 Lisps have a lot of syntax. They just tend to have regular punctuation. 03:25:37 What's the syntax of (push a b)? 03:25:43 There's a GHC extension with Lisp syntax anyway. 03:25:50 Bike: I saw that! 03:25:53 I know 03:25:57 Liskell 03:25:57 Bike: I think it's unmaintained now though :( 03:26:02 Aw. 03:26:04 there's also Hasp, which works differently 03:26:09 and is still in development 03:26:24 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:32 Anyway, diginet, if you think laziness obviates the need for macros I'm not sure you understand what macros are for? 03:27:00 well, I thought I did, I read that somewhere and though that maybe I didn't 03:27:07 *thought 03:27:43 I didn't think it was the case, but I assumed that maybe I didn't know what macros were for (ha, kind of the inverse of what you thiought) 03:28:11 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:57 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:30:33 sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.6.115] has joined #lisp 03:30:47 diginet: SICP goes into making a toy lazy evaluator, looks like. 03:30:58 Where it helps is for transforms like (if a b c) to (if-fun a (lambda () a) (lambda () b)). 03:30:58 ah, thanks 03:31:11 And that's what lazy evaluation makes unnecessary. 03:31:30 ah, okay 03:31:49 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:32:36 Except that I can't spell a and b properly, but ... 03:32:58 Nonsense. I wouldn't be caught dead driving an aquamarine car. 03:33:09 and I hear red cars have to pay more for insurance. 03:33:38 You say that now, but after the sea level rises 10 meters you'll need to blend in to avoid sharks. 03:33:39 I noticed a similar problem trying to write TeX macros, I was trying to write a macro that would give me access to whateven the name of the environment is that just prints literal strings without trying to interpret it, except whenever I called it, I couldn't get back out of it 03:34:07 the only car I can think about that is ever aquamarine is like an old VW van, or something. 03:36:35 what aspects of lisp would you guys say makes lisp be lisp? 03:36:52 "i know it" 03:37:10 the ability to cause flamewars about whether it's a lisp. 03:37:12 "i like it" 03:37:32 "it's not clojure, therefore it is Lisp" is my favorite. 03:37:53 -!- lebro [~monx@ool-18bab4b8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:47 ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:35 zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.67] has joined #lisp 03:42:56 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:48:36 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:49:44 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:06 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.10.126] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:56:57 -!- jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:57:10 jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:59:58 rmathews [~roshan@122.174.53.120] has joined #lisp 04:01:53 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.53.120] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:16 rmathews [~roshan@122.174.53.120] has joined #lisp 04:05:09 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:09 lazyfingers [~a@78.84.172.207] has joined #lisp 04:15:06 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 04:15:58 hello. my emacs hangs when i try to use read-line in slime with sbcl. has anyone encountered such things? 04:16:12 no 04:17:02 on windows 04:18:44 -!- ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:19:05 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:24:02 lazyfingers: what lisp? what emacs? hangs how? 04:24:44 sbcl 04:24:57 ah. good morning. 04:25:09 -!- benny [~benny@i577A80EE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:25:17 well, it's windows, anything can happen 04:25:38 works for me as well, 1.0.55 with emacs 23.1 04:26:28 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:30:39 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:31:50 -!- jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:35:31 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 04:36:23 jjkola [~jjkola@xdsl-83-150-83-66.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 04:37:26 Bike_ [~Glossina@207-225-94-191.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-225-94-191.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:44:03 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-0-207.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:47:27 I just read "Don't Loop, Iterate", and noticed it's been around a while. does anyone here prefer iterate to loop these days? are there downsides to iterate that I'm not getting from that article? 04:47:47 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 04:47:55 -!- masq- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (Session timeout)] 04:48:27 when I tried it a few months ago, it didn't work out of the quicklisp box 04:49:27 not ql:quickloading is a definite downside 04:49:58 I may been clueless. That is always a possibility. 04:53:04 -!- zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:24 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:54:13 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 04:55:42 arnuld [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 04:56:24 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.6.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:04 drumond19 [~drumond19@177.99.129.39] has joined #lisp 05:05:15 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-eiwvakrpfmowpoui] has joined #lisp 05:06:36 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:10:21 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:10:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:36 eveing 05:13:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:48 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 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has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:52:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:00:51 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-eiwvakrpfmowpoui] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:05:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:10:34 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.56.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:10:52 xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 06:12:04 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:32 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-obzqjvbdnjhtvsay] has joined #lisp 06:16:44 -!- mihi_tr [~inisp@62-47-136-78.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:17:18 -!- galdor_ is now known as galdor 06:22:34 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:25:48 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:58 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:27:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-138.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:27:31 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has joined #lisp 06:28:11 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 06:28:29 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:32:01 even ning? 06:33:07 Just odd ning. 06:33:23 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:52 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.6.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:11 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0104ae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:36 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 06:39:00 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:43:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.109.210] has joined #lisp 06:45:59 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:47:34 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:51:19 eni 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lifeng is now known as covariant 07:17:53 -!- covariant is now known as lifeng 07:19:45 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ezvjrmjmgeeyhqjg] has joined #lisp 07:21:30 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:26:09 -!- hugod [~user@host213-123-202-151.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:26:39 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:26:58 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.230.93] has joined #lisp 07:29:13 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:29:57 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:30:02 o/ 07:30:03 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:30:41 Greetings! 07:31:10 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:32:06 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:16 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 07:34:05 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 07:37:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@207-225-94-191.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:41:36 Morning. In Lispworks, you may supply your own function to make a hash key. ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/LW/html/lw-654.htm ). I want to hash objects which have some numeric slots, some strings. Where do I start to get a grasp on how to make a suitable hash key? 07:41:47 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:33 chr``: where in that page did you read you can "supply your own function to make a hash key"? 07:43:01 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-tqlirokirwvielpz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:43:05 i admit i did not read it all 07:43:40 oh, i read it now. 07:43:53 -!- Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:53 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 07:44:06 chr``: so you get Knuth's "The Art of Computer Programming", and read chapters on hashing 07:44:37 jdz: Be right back. ;) 07:44:39 is there a good tool to document lisp projects including automatic api documentation generation? 07:44:40 chr``: if you don't want to do that, i'd suggest you make your keys a list of the involved values, and use EQUALP as the test function 07:44:46 Ralith [~ralith@63.64.64.178] has joined #lisp 07:45:59 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.163.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:26 jdz: I don't need performance, but still nice to know; where in the list do you want the common keys? In front? 07:47:07 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:47:20 chr``: id does not matter much 07:47:43 chr``: i'd put numbers before strings, because they would be faster to compare 07:47:45 morning 07:47:53 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.163.219] has joined #lisp 07:48:21 chr``: or maybe just put the values that would be more likely to differ in front 07:49:06 jdz: Thanks, I'll give it a try. 07:53:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-89-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:11 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-89-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:55:11 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:55:46 leo2007: http://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool 07:55:52 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 07:56:29 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:56:30 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:56:30 but I used only tinaa some time ago and wasn't completely satisfied... 07:57:00 -!- impulse32_ [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:57:16 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:58:04 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.163.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:58:56 -!- arrsim` [~user@128.250.116.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:37 -!- AssBurger [assburgers@to.niggerbucks.barack.obama.dolescum.info] has quit [K-Lined] 08:00:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:02:53 bege: you might be right. none of the tools shines. 08:06:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-138.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:07:17 tinaa seems okay, wish at least one of them would produce graphviz class diagrams like oxygen does 08:08:51 ezakimak: not that I've ever found those useful, but that's about 40 lines of code. A fun 30-minute project, really. 08:09:07 30-min if you're not a noob... 08:10:32 ezakimak: I'd start from (sb-mop:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'standard-object)) and walk that graph (or class-direct-superclasses if you swing the other way) 08:11:02 leo2007: Do you like org-mode? In that case clod may be useful. 08:11:50 *leo2007* reads clod 08:13:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:00 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.0.148] has joined #lisp 08:14:46 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:16:54 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.53.120] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 08:17:32 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:17:36 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:19:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:20:46 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 08:20:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 08:20:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:21:50 xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:22:08 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.0.148] has quit [] 08:22:14 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:23:59 asvil [~asvil@178.120.173.229] has joined #lisp 08:25:40 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 08:27:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:29:14 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:33:41 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 08:36:32 mihi_tr [~inisp@vpn.lo-res.org] has joined #lisp 08:37:38 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:09 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:35 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 08:42:51 snearch [~snearch@f053009243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:11 arnuld [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has joined #lisp 08:49:12 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:49:28 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 08:49:32 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:42 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:51:50 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:54:29 hugod [~user@host81-130-89-113.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:03 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:27 b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:04 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:04:36 papyrus [~isson@27.119.37.49] has joined #lisp 09:04:40 -!- diginet [~kevin@ppp-70-246-17-49.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:04 I am almost at the tipping point, whole reinvention of inmemory database now seems 09:06:06 more trouble than its worth. CL-STM does not play well with CL-STORE. STM metaclass 09:06:07 rewrites slot values, to something representing a transaction object (which when executed 09:06:09 produces the value,but additionaly does transaction logging). It rewrites the accessors/readers 09:06:10 to produce this value instead of tx obj. When I serialize using cl-store,the obj value gets 09:06:12 stored and thats what it becomes on restore. When i try to access it using reader, reader 09:06:13 expects a tx object but theres a actual primitive value there now! :(! 09:10:01 clojure provides stm inbuilt it seems but .. 09:11:31 you need to manually serialize, then 09:11:44 or at least put a separate layer in between 09:12:05 something that would create primitive copy 09:12:58 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:13:43 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:45 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:16:43 b_: you realize that if you have serialization, you have a deep copier as well? ie cl-store into memory stream then back, gives you a deep copy 09:17:03 b_: so checkpoint your data every minute into a deep copy (with a lock), then have background thread store it to disk 09:17:22 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:18:50 maxm-: advantage being storing to memory will be quicker? 09:19:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:07 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 09:20:25 b_: I have not tried it, but cl-store had been very fast for me until it hits disk (ie acutally cl-store of 1 gig of stuff already finishes, then linux slows down once background writers kick in) 09:20:36 so I assume in-memory stream will be pretty fast 09:20:56 sounds like a good idea but then after its done I have about 50MB of data ready for gc, triggering more frequent gcs.. 09:21:06 imho you trying to bite off more then you can chew, making decisions blidly 09:21:33 yes, i agree, its too much new stuff to produce something stable 09:21:44 i need more time, when i have only till monday 09:21:44 implement the simplest solution, then implement benchmarking (use apache bench, or there is a perl and python modules that simulates a browser.. Perls::mechanize? or such 09:22:35 lol if you have until monday, you don't want to get into any kind of ORM with metaclasses and stuff.. 09:22:38 i am using apache bench now, single threaded taskmaster on 2 concurrent requests on a total of 20 requests produced average request time of 25 seconds, had to give that one up 09:22:56 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35430.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:23:11 now have a database level lock and each method i write acquires and releases a recursive lock 09:23:17 simple data structure, (defvar *one-big-lock* (bt:make-lock)), wrap your stuff in the topmost level into (with-lock-held (*one-big-lock*) ...) and off you go 09:23:22 yes 09:23:30 arnuld_ [~chatzilla@121.243.141.69] has joined #lisp 09:23:59 either each method, or do it at request level.. Also remember :around methods 09:24:04 -!- hugod [~user@host81-130-89-113.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:24:47 (defmethod do-stuff ((obj my-obj) ...do my thing ..) (defmethod do-stuff :around ((obj my-obj)) (with-lock-held (*big-lock*) (call-next-method))) 09:24:53 there, you added locking 09:25:39 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:25:48 don't forget to make *that* lock recursive (one of the few legit uses for recursive mutexes :) 09:27:09 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:27:34 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:27:41 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:27:58 maxm-: I would need to write this around code for each method wont i?, 09:28:27 yes recursive lock 09:28:46 if recursive lock then yes you can stick it pretty much everywhere 09:29:06 I did something like: (defmacro deflmethod (name (&rest args) &body body) 09:29:07 `(defmethod ,name ,args 09:29:09 (with-recursive-lock-held (*store-lock*) ,@body))) 09:29:15 l for lock 09:29:28 if non-recursive lock, you have to be careful, and probably write a smart wrapper simulating a recursive lock, or just be very sure to only lock in 1 entry point, that can't be re-entered 09:30:44 i was *blindly* using recursive locks, untill someone points out there is something dangerous about them 09:31:42 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:32:42 the way I understand it its more easily to produce deadlocks with them, altho I forgot the chain of reasoning... 09:32:57 oh.., i just found theres another lisp stm library: http://www.cliki.net/SW-STM , but i am enough seduced, i will just write methods carefully that check everything to make sure they will go ahead without failure to avoid producing inconsistent state 09:33:07 i think you gotta write code that way even for prevalent systems 09:33:50 well i am not worried then, i have a single lock, my app is bottlenecked anyway 09:33:59 -!- arnuld_ [~chatzilla@121.243.141.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:34:14 *maxm-* wishes ppl would add "tried this, a b and c did not worked" on clicki for packages they tried 09:34:30 every single lispers steps into the same piles over and over it seems 09:35:19 dialga [c136ac7c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.54.172.124] has joined #lisp 09:35:25 problems with recursive locks happen when you have more than one lock, or want to use condition variables. 09:35:26 maxm-: ?? 09:35:41 should i edit the pages with comments u mean? 09:35:55 pkhuong: right, so i am safe as u say 09:35:56 hi. 09:36:21 arnuld [~chatzilla@121.243.141.69] has joined #lisp 09:36:32 fe[nl]ix: I mean it seems when a person new to lisp goes in search of "nosql/memory db" type solution, they all go through the same process of trying rucksack, elephant, several stm libraries, etc.. then coming out with tehir own I guess after a year or so, and abandoning it later 09:37:45 all this transactional memory fad kind of making my head hurt.. It just feels like a disaster written all over if ever used in a serious application 09:38:57 stm has a performance hit of its own as it seems to maintain logging for *each* read and write, but i dont know any benchmarks 09:39:01 maxm-: would you consider the single recursive lock approach in a serious IO-bound application? 09:39:01 RDBMS ppl spent 30 years, and I still was finding bugs in XA implementation of various vendors, including serious ones like Oracle or IBM (don't get me started on informix) 09:39:29 so I would not trust my app core logic to "random guy from internet wrote 2000 lines library 2 year sago" 09:39:56 arnuld_ [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has joined #lisp 09:40:05 -!- arnuld_ [~chatzilla@124.123.173.211] has quit [Changing host] 09:40:05 arnuld_ [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has joined #lisp 09:40:12 pkhuong: obviously not, is this a trick question? 09:41:10 pkhuong: I really had no expirience with multi-terrabyte data sizes, so all my RL expirience with high load, even while technically working with RDBMS, we just sized the memory until appserver + db working set fit into memory, and then its always purely cpu bound 09:41:13 maxm-: why, "obviously not"? Anyway, some STM libraries have the same niche. 09:42:07 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@121.243.141.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:42:13 pkhuong: well if app is io bound, I assume 1 thread will just be blocked on io while holding lock, preventing others from doing anything... Unless you use async io, or completion callbacks non-blocking io 09:42:14 Of course, conflicts are detected at a finer grain. 09:42:15 EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:21 -!- arnuld_ is now known as arnuld 09:42:39 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:43:44 leo2007: Did your try clod? 09:44:10 Guys, one more question, right now cl-store takes abt 3 seconds for producing snapshot of 25 mb, i assume its due its work on resolving circular references, but if its not, then would it help to 09:44:27 have linux put the disk file in memory? 09:44:41 b_: linux already does that. 09:45:23 oh.. so the reason i see my hd light on, is *after* the sbcl process is done with it, ie linux async writing to disk? 09:45:49 cool, so my only other option to reduce time is maxm- idea to stream to memory 09:47:07 b_: yes you can play with background-ratio.. basically cd /usr/src/linux/Documentation 09:47:17 and there will be a vm-something.txt file with bunch of tunables 09:48:07 chr``: not yet. I just bookmarked it for later reference. 09:48:30 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:48:45 okdoke, thank you, off i go 09:49:16 pkhuong: my objections to STM come not from the method, but from not seeing/hearing of someone using STM metaclass type thing in serious work that handled a lot of complex data 09:50:47 maxm-: oh you're worried about fancy implementations? Fair point. There are some trivial implementations that are strictly better than the recursive lock (which is itself probably better than naive single-threaded code) 09:51:05 I understand its purely practical and "in theory" stupid objection, but complex things are complex for a reason. As of 1 year ago, I could still bring weblogic/oracle connected with XA oracle driver to its knees, and a complete deadlock, by simply using standard and approved EJB practices straight from the EJB examples provided by weblogic, by running load-runner 09:51:51 it all workes fine with 1 request, and 5 requests and 50 requests, but pound it for 2 days, and it goes into complete lockup with both oracle and weblogic somehow deadlocked, and requiring kill -9'ing 09:51:58 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-139-43-162.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:52:09 maxm-: that only happens when you try to achieve massive parallelism. If you're only interested in incrementally improving legacy code, there are simple paths. 09:52:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:52:43 that is when one uses transaction initiated at a client in an EJB, doign several calls to oracle (enlisting them in transaction), then sending MQ message, then committing. 09:53:19 maxm-: Can you drop a line into log4cl's README about locking? Is it thread safe? Does it have a global lock or only per-logger locks? etc 09:54:09 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 09:54:21 -!- mihi_tr [~inisp@vpn.lo-res.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:54:31 naryl: open an issue I'll do it.. Short story is, all standard appenders use lock when writing to a stream, as well as a background flusher. so as provided should be completely thread-safe... 09:55:01 ok 09:55:03 naryl: there is already documentation in the docstrings of appender class, see appender.lisp 09:55:05 From a paper on conditions: "The reason not to write this is not that it will not work" :) 09:55:22 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-94-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:55:35 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:31 there is no per-logger lock, it uses bitmask to check if it should log. the bitmask is recalculated when you change logging config, add/remove appenders etc, under a global lock. In the logging case, locking is provided by appenders, and all default appenders inherit from serialized-appender, which uses 1 lock per appender.. 10:01:29 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-94-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:08 tfb [~tfb@92.40.196.53.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:07:39 zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has joined #lisp 10:09:54 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:09:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.196.53.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-105-205.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 tfb [~tfb@92.40.196.53.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:10:39 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:47 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:18:39 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:20:38 Strange practical timings: writing to disk time 3 sec and using flexi-streams:with-output-to-sequence (in-memory) 7 secs 10:20:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:21:02 harish [~harish@155.69.194.134] has joined #lisp 10:21:24 flexi-streams is renowned for being slow. 10:21:31 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 10:24:16 heh I had not checked if there is a fast in-memory stream before givingn this advice 10:24:30 just assumed there was one, since its such an obvious thing to have 10:25:10 would not with-output-to-string with element-type (unsigned-byte 8) work? 10:25:42 maxm-: bytes are not characters. 10:26:37 treyka_ [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 10:26:48 -!- treyka_ [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:52 it needs something which supports write-to-byte (cl-store) 10:27:12 *write-byte* 10:29:28 hmm I remember babel having vector-stream or such 10:29:35 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:31:59 found it 10:32:06 use babel-streams 10:32:09 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:32:29 then (babel-streams:with-output-to-sequence (s :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) s is in-memory stream) 10:32:37 it will return the array holding your serialized data 10:32:46 the opposite is with-input-from-sequence 10:33:47 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:34:02 -!- arnuld [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/arnuld] has left #lisp 10:34:15 just tried with cl-store, works.. will wait on b_: for timings 10:34:15 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:39 in fact this makes an excellent serializer, for wire protocol I would say 10:34:46 if its as fast as I hope 10:35:29 combine this with zmq or some other per-process/thread dispatcher, and imho you can get quite high parallelism without much locking, if you just pass work units around as serilazied blobs.. and you can cluster 10:36:45 9.464 seconds 10:37:43 kind of meh, but I don't know your data size.. you sure you did not printed the output? coz that would be majority of time actually :-) 10:38:02 I think this calls for a profiler. 10:38:03 no, i used values 10:38:09 9.468 seconds of real time 10:38:10 9.444591 seconds of total run time (9.360585 user, 0.084006 system) 10:38:12 [ Run times consist of 0.048 seconds GC time, and 9.397 seconds non-GC time. ] 10:38:13 99.76% CPU 10:38:15 15,780,749,280 processor cycles 10:38:17 108,059,376 bytes consed 10:38:19 maxm-: printing happens after CL:TIME has executed. 10:38:27 this is kind of weird that vector-stream is slower then real stream 10:38:39 babel guys may be interested in this use-case too 10:38:50 data size is 25MB on disk with orders list containing 11k orders and order items 16000 with id indexes on each and date index on orders 10:39:18 ah hold on 10:39:23 maybe its external format 10:40:03 does babel have a "binary" encoding? 10:40:37 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:37 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:40:42 let me try giving it initial buffer size 10:41:29 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:17 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:43:00 9.08 secs 10:44:18 yea apparently babel kind of meh.. 10:44:40 IIRC "babel guys" is Edi Weitz. 10:44:48 that highlights a need for fast binary in-memory stream apparently 10:45:20 or maybe linux just got faster 10:45:44 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:46:46 it kind of sucks cl-store default backend just uses write-byte 10:47:24 naryl: nope 10:47:30 would have been cool if it had used funcall to a function defaulting to write-byte, this way could have easily made fastest serializer 10:47:58 imho thats what happens with real streams, real streams on SBCL go through a fast funcall to store bytes rather then expansive generic function 10:48:24 *maxm-* is profiling this case just to see where time is spent 10:49:38 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49:43 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 10:51:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129648 10:52:32 doh forgot actual cl-store inside 10:52:44 was wondering why I had to increase loop by 10x 10:52:56 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:55:05 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:51 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 10:56:16 -!- dialga [c136ac7c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.54.172.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:55 dialga [c136ac7c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.54.172.124] has joined #lisp 10:57:53 annotated with real profile now 11:00:41 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:01 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:01:38 actually as much speedup can be expected if :cl-store had a bit of internal buffering, ie had 1024 bytes internal simple array, and filled it and used write-sequence instead of write-byte 11:01:51 as its really writing byte-by-byte overhead thats killing it 11:03:30 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 11:03:48 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:04:09 this would/should speed up straight to disk write too... i hope 11:07:01 bruno_coelho [~bruno_coe@177.41.5.197] has joined #lisp 11:07:51 -!- bruno_coelho [~bruno_coe@177.41.5.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:03 Yuuhi [benni@p54839DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:59 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:13:59 -!- arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:15:25 It should, IO-bound programs in CL tend to actually be runtime-system-bound :\ 11:18:01 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:18:10 arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:15 mihi_tr [~inisp@vpn.lo-res.org] has joined #lisp 11:18:54 -!- ski___ is now known as ski 11:19:13 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:46 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@37.79.97.27] has joined #lisp 11:24:10 -!- arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:20 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@37.79.97.27] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24:30 arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:35 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@37.79.97.27] has joined #lisp 11:24:48 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:23 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 11:31:13 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 11:31:54 *maxm-* sent email to cl-store-devel to see if there is any life there 11:33:28 I also know a fix for with-serialization-unit, but one thing at a time.. ie all the globals need to be replaced with a single *serialization-state* variable, and generics to create it per backend... this way there is no need for surgery around them, and changing 5 places each time new global is introduced 11:34:46 -!- arbn [~arbn@68-112-50-76.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has left #lisp 11:36:34 xyxu [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has joined #lisp 11:36:38 with-s-unit would give more power, as now i end up saving product data/indexes too even when they are mostly static data 11:37:19 b_: ok, about serializaiton unit, our previous fix did not worked because not only the clrhash was done, but it also reset the *something-counter* that it used as object id to 0 11:37:24 in each (store) 11:38:18 so that bit needs to be fixed, so that it would init it at 0 in with-serialization-unit, and maybe (store) needs to somehow detect if its already inside of with-serialization-unit, then do nothing, otherwise do (with-serialization-unit) itself 11:39:12 unfortunately i'm a bit busy with my own project to do any serious hacking on it right now, other then look/see here and there.. But I'm planning on using cl-store a bit later once I get into zmq stuff 11:39:13 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:43 *maxm-* is thinking of zmq wrapper that passes native structures around 11:39:48 using cl-store as serializer 11:39:56 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 11:41:03 i will try look into it next week, but code is somewhat advanced for my current lisp knowledge 11:41:43 saage_ [~saage@201.66.40.27] has joined #lisp 11:44:29 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:44:33 -!- dialga [c136ac7c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.54.172.124] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:44:46 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:47:50 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:10 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 11:50:13 damn, i keep forgetting the s-sql syntax for type casts, can anyone help? 11:52:08 (:type 'foo string) 11:52:20 galdor: ah, thanks! 11:56:07 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:28 vervic [~vervic@p239-087.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:56:53 [SLB] [~slabua@host181-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:56:53 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host181-164-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 11:56:53 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 11:57:12 -!- vervic [~vervic@p239-087.vps.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:29 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:16 xyxu1 [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 xyxu2 [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has joined #lisp 12:01:32 -!- xyxu [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:02:58 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:36 -!- xyxu1 [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:07:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.97.1] 12:09:43 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.104.141] has joined #lisp 12:13:01 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.104.141] has left #lisp 12:13:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:13:42 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:17 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 12:16:54 I had made separate packages for the store and web code, now I find I need to export not only the domain object class names but their accessors also, bit of hassle 12:17:38 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:18:41 b_: write yourself a keyboard macro that puts the symbol under the cursor into the export list of the current package and evaluates the defpackage? 12:18:49 b_: i'd like to have that, too :) 12:19:53 nice, now i first need to find out whats a keyboard macro :D 12:20:45 b_: i'll admit that it was easier to write than it would be to implement it. 12:20:46 H4ns: slime-package-fu? 12:20:52 pkhuong: ah? 12:21:43 uh, fancy! 12:21:44 It's a contrib to "Exporting/Unexporting symbols at point." 12:22:07 only that it uses keywords as symbol name designator. 12:22:25 that's probably the easiest thing to fix (: 12:22:44 *H4ns* looks slightly harder 12:23:14 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:23:24 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:48 H4ns: slime-export-symbol-representation-function, defaults to uninterned symbols on the source I see here. 12:24:25 That parameter seems to be any string -> string function. 12:24:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:44 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:22 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-dfzmgepzwmuppnit] has joined #lisp 12:25:50 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:24 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:28:32 any help for http://paste.lisp.org/display/129649??? 12:28:56 II get an eerror from md5 sayiing that it's not a (vector '(unsigned-byte 8)), but if I put the :element-type in 12:29:22 I get "is not a binary output stream" . 12:29:41 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:29:50 you could use md5sum-string with an :external-format argument 12:32:05 pkhuong: slime-export-symbol-at-point is smart in that it tries to use the export style which is already there. only that it mis-takes :export for being an exported symbol and then insists on keyword style, no matter what the slime-export-symbol-representation-function is saying. 12:32:10 not a big deal, just saying. 12:32:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:33:03 Kryztof: md5 is just to see whether I'm really cclean, I need the binary data. 12:33:26 b_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129650 12:33:43 H4ns: ah, too bad (: 12:33:53 b_: with that, you can use C-c e to export the symbol under the cursor and C-u C-c e to unexport it again 12:34:01 pkhuong: pretty neat, thanks for pointing me at this. 12:35:04 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:54 conn times out on paste.lisp ( 12:38:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:15 got some ab test results of html rendering on my bottlenecked ap 12:38:16 concurrency level: 20, total requests 100, rate achieved 43 req/second 12:38:18 Total html size transferred: 8MB 12:38:19 with-recursive-lock fresh calc done for each req:looping over 16K order items 12:38:21 collecting total counts of Products ordered (for 4K products) on T5450 @ 1.66GHz × 2 (ab use one core and sbcl other) 12:38:21 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-132.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-132.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:38:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:39:21 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:39:27 paste.lisp.org works fine. 12:39:43 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:56 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:02 not for me, other sites fine 12:40:04 hrm, no way to query license from quicklisp? 12:40:37 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:06 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:24 oGMo: yes, there is. 12:41:51 oGMo: check manifest.lisp : http://fossil.nasium-lse.ogamita.com/nasium-lse/artifact/ca229c462dcf420c4497020b3d4b795f0c0e4efb 12:42:23 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:58 b_: look at the paste list. It only times out at the very end, when it fails to announce the post in irc. 12:43:03 hrm 12:43:10 pkhuong: that's been fixed 12:43:23 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.173.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:44:16 pjb: that appears to query the asdf system, not the quicklisp metadata 12:44:31 H4ns: nice. 12:47:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:19 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ezvjrmjmgeeyhqjg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:49:04 pkhuong: stassats is the man 12:53:11 benny` [~benny@i577A87E6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:54:19 -!- b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:37 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:34 -!- jack_rabbit [~Jack_rabb@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:06:22 ahh it's a wonderful day 13:06:44 pkhuong: ping 13:07:08 -!- mihi_tr [~inisp@vpn.lo-res.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:11 -!- zfx [~zfx@109.174.157.242] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:08:42 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11:29 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:08 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:12:47 -!- harish [~harish@155.69.194.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:14:13 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:14:30 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 13:15:33 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-poszcpfbbiuzrlcv] has joined #lisp 13:16:50 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:20:21 -!- JPeterso2 [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:20:21 -!- JPeterson is now known as JPeterso2 13:22:25 fe[nl]ix: pong. 13:24:48 oGMo: indeed. 13:25:07 When I wrote it there was no license in quicklisp metadata. 13:25:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.65.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:26:01 pkhuong: I have a piece of code that conses a lot and noticed this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2S1F 13:26:18 lemoinem [~swoog@233-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 make-array with non-constant :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) is slow 13:27:46 yeah. It's our type system stuff consing, again. 13:28:00 1.0.57 on linux/x86_64 13:28:03 I'd consider that a defect of the implementation. 13:29:45 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:56 do you want to log a bug report so you can follow progress? It's %vector-widetag-and-n-bits always using SUBTYPEP when EQUAL would suffice in a lot of cases. 13:30:00 ok 13:30:04 asvil [~asvil@178.120.173.229] has joined #lisp 13:30:07 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 %complex-vector-widetag has similar problems. 13:30:28 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:32:00 why is that a CASE anyway? It should just be a hash table lookup in common cases :\ 13:32:06 does launchpad allow some markup for code snippets ? 13:35:05 apparently not 13:35:14 It's all monospace here anyway. 13:37:54 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1004501 13:38:16 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 13:39:04 vinian [~vinian@111.161.79.224] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has joined #lisp 13:42:50 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.189] has joined #lisp 13:42:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.189] has quit [Changing host] 13:42:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:42:56 tyson1 [~Ian@bas4-kitchener06-1128761622.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:45:28 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@bas4-kitchener06-1128761622.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 13:50:08 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 13:52:57 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128035138.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 13:56:59 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-cdbibsvzyvceduin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:14 katspaugh [~katspaugh@195.93.246.10] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 Hi! Do you know any Lisp environments that can graphically represent an OOP structure (class inheritance), like a mind map? 13:59:47 Or the whole tree, if it's even possible. 13:59:49 SLIME sort-of can but it's kinda bad. The only other I've actually seen is ACL's class browser. 13:59:56 JengYiC_UB2-1 [~morrisc@gate.daemonland.org] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 katspaugh: the metadata is available to normal code, so you can write your own visualisation. 14:01:16 pkhuong: I'm interested in such thing with another language, though I think it's possible in that language too. 14:01:27 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:30 Just wanted to see how it look's like. 14:01:36 * looked 14:02:15 sykopomp: thanks! I'll check Allegro. 14:02:16 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-aatrjtadkcasbrvk] has joined #lisp 14:03:06 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: vervic] 14:03:25 Wait, wasn't that a typical LispM / CLIM trick? Format-graph-from-roots or whatever it was? 14:05:08 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-poszcpfbbiuzrlcv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:44 nyef: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Listener.png -- you're right, thanks! 14:06:38 Heh. And that's McCLIM, too! 14:06:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:07:09 Joreji [~thomas@69-097.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:27 http://jlr.freeshell.org/data/mcclim/screenshots/2007-03-27-listener-dark-classgraph-context-menu.png -- this one looks super nice, thanks nyef! 14:08:31 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.131] has joined #lisp 14:16:51 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-96-143.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:11 is there an easy way in slime to get the parameters to a type? 14:17:41 hrmm, too bad there's not like a flexible-vector or grey-vector or similar .. lots of things operate on strings where operating on a stream or buffer would be preferable ;/ 14:18:13 there's flexi-streams 14:19:07 i thought that provided a stream on a vector, not a vector on a stream 14:20:54 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 jewel [~jewel@1-64-17-013.static.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:52 leo2007: That should happen if you use slime-fancy 14:23:34 tcr: I use slime-fancy but don't know how to see it. 14:23:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:43 i.e. see type paramerters 14:24:19 -!- vinian [~vinian@111.161.79.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:25:02 vinian [~vinian@111.161.79.224] has joined #lisp 14:25:05 b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 -!- sjl [~sjl@li136-50.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 14:26:22 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-obzqjvbdnjhtvsay] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:26:43 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A35F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:06 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vhfjakvdwyrirmyc] has joined #lisp 14:29:06 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 14:29:41 tcr: do you mean in the inspector? 14:33:45 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@pool-70-22-217-21.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:53 I can type "(declaim (type (integer ", and see the arguments to the integer type designator in the minibuffer. 14:37:57 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:38:12 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:38:43 dekuked [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:12 pkhuong: thanks, that happens here too. 14:40:34 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:41:14 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.173.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:43:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:45:28 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:09 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-097.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:52:56 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:56:08 -!- saage_ [~saage@201.66.40.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:47 -!- BeLucid_ [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:55 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:06 saage [~saage@201.66.40.27] has joined #lisp 14:57:06 -!- saage [~saage@201.66.40.27] has quit [Changing host] 14:57:06 saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has joined #lisp 14:57:40 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:57:48 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:35 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:30 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:59 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:48 -!- ocharles_ [u411@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wdvfsptihsycxios] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 15:20:21 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:20:42 dl [~download@dhcp154.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 15:31:31 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:34:39 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:37:19 pnq [~nick@172.129.10.55] has joined #lisp 15:39:40 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:11 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-68-215.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:31 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:44:54 -!- b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:15 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:52:38 add^_ [~add^_^@m90-141-33-144.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:53:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:54:21 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 15:54:33 Is there a "done thing" for sending email from lisp? 15:55:07 (run-program "/usr/bin/sendmail" ...) 15:57:42 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128035138.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:00 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:58:58 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:00 cl-smtp 16:01:00 Yeah, I'd prefer to avoid using run-program. Largely because I know a few things about how it's implemented on SBCL, and that's not anything that I want to have to debug. 16:01:29 The basic candidates that I've found so far are cl-smtp, mel-base, and smtp4cl. 16:01:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.196.53.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 16:04:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:05:20 nyef: I use mel-base, but I haven't tried any others. 16:06:34 Mmm. cl-smtp seems to be fairly straightforward, and the documentation is more believable than mel-base. 16:08:47 nyef: mel-base has documentation?! 16:08:55 -!- xyxu2 [~Adium@180.158.178.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:10:45 nyef: cl-smtp works fairly well. if you need fine grained control over how multipart mime messages are created, you may want to use my fork cl-smtp-hh 16:10:50 paul0 [~paul0@189.115.61.215] has joined #lisp 16:10:58 nyef: but for most things, plain cl-smtp from quicklisp works just fine. 16:11:08 sellout: Only for about a third to half of it, maybe. 16:11:40 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:41 H4ns: Okay, thanks. I might need fine control later, but right now I just need to be able to send something. 16:11:44 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 16:11:48 H4ns: Crap  now I want to switch to cl-smtp-hh. I hacked up mel-base a bit to make creating multipart messages easier. 16:12:25 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.42.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:37 sellout: i'm using cl-mime for the mime part. 16:12:59 sellout: cl-mime is great, but the total lack of documentation makes it a bit hard to use :/ 16:13:18 Then write some documentation! 16:13:23 You're free to do so! 16:13:43 pjb: thank you for your valuable input! 16:15:45 kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has joined #lisp 16:17:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:18:19 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@pool-70-22-217-21.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:19:10 Often people forget it. It's free software, you may write anything that's lacking around it. 16:19:34 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:19:35 -!- kmcorbett1 [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:46 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has joined #lisp 16:21:24 gglitch [~user@24-148-45-197.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:48 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:08 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vhfjakvdwyrirmyc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:30 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has joined #lisp 16:23:29 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:09 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:28 b_ [~chatzilla@cpc3-acto3-2-0-cust505.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 xecycle [~user@183.192.200.158] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 gyotoit22 [gyotoit22@79.126.209.78] has joined #lisp 16:31:52 -!- pnq [~nick@172.129.10.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:33:46 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:34:44 I vaguely remember an example of using compiler macros to modify code at compile time: he defines a compiler macro, `emit-*' that prints (* args ...), and replace #'* with this one, then he's able to see how #'* is called in a function. Can you tell me how to do it? 16:35:24 xecycle: well, you cannot define a compiler macro on cl:* 16:35:37 or on any other symbol in CL. 16:35:40 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ityrsutkzeoabiui] has joined #lisp 16:35:59 pjb: I know, and I remember that guy called it `emit-*'. 16:36:43 Then yes. (define-compiler-macro emit-* (&whole whole) 16:37:00 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ityrsutkzeoabiui] has quit [Changing host] 16:37:00 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:37:17 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.8.255] has joined #lisp 16:37:41 (define-compiler-macro emit-* (&whole whole) `(progn (print ',whole) (cons '* (rest whole)))) 16:37:44 something like that. 16:38:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@1-64-17-013.static.netvigator.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:38:44 Then how do I convert a function, say (defun square (x) (* x x)) to print (* x x)? 16:38:59 s/*/emit-*/ 16:39:13 OR, you read it in a package where * is not cl:*. 16:39:33 No. I don't think that was it. 16:39:44 (defpackage "MINE" (:use "CL") (:shadow "*")) (in-package "MINE") (defun * (&rest args) ) (load "square.lisp") 16:39:59 Either you change the source, or you change the package. 16:40:15 Notice that this would be a good argument not to put any in-package form in files. 16:40:24 The system building facility should do it itself. 16:40:27 lain_ [~lain@e178070052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:31 Hmm... So compiler macros are not suitable for this? 16:40:48 xecycle: not for CL symbols. Only for your own symbols. 16:40:53 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:42:22 katspaugh_ [~katspaugh@195.93.246.10] has joined #lisp 16:42:22 -!- katspaugh_ [~katspaugh@195.93.246.10] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:36 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:45:40 -!- katspaugh [~katspaugh@195.93.246.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:45:52 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:06 -!- gyotoit22 [gyotoit22@79.126.209.78] has quit [K-Lined] 16:48:13 pjb: Hmm, another point: the guy not only transformed square. He then wrote a (power base exp) that calls square, and he printed the corresponding code for (power 6 6), recursively; It was like (* (square (square 6)) (square 6)). 16:49:52 Unfortunately I have no contacts for him; he gave that example on an earlier speech, and I didn't remember all of it. :( 16:51:02 The easiest way is to do it in a package where you define your own * etc. 16:51:44 But by defining * it's not possible to do this, since * have no information of the callee. He expanded the callee. 16:52:17 etc covers defun. 16:52:23 Okay, cl-smtp appears to be working, more or less, but the local relay is default-configured to do something stupidly broken. /-: 16:52:32 Hmm. 16:52:57 pjb: That way it would look like a code walker. 16:54:07 sizz_ [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:45 -!- sizz [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:55:42 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 16:56:10 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:32 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:13 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:51 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.186] has joined #lisp 17:07:16 aesundstrom [~aesundstr@BIOINFORMATICS.CIMS.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:08:07 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:19 eric-atl_ [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:48 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 17:09:27 -!- eric-atl_ [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:53 philcrissman [~philcriss@c-174-53-217-149.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 eric-atl_ [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:29 -!- eric-atl_ [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:12:59 -!- aesundstrom [~aesundstr@BIOINFORMATICS.CIMS.NYU.EDU] has left #lisp 17:13:17 eric-atl [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:27 -!- eric-atl [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:18 -!- xecycle [~user@183.192.200.158] has left #lisp 17:17:43 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:18:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:55 -!- upasna is now known as human_bot 17:20:05 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:22:02 eric-atl [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:25 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.82] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 What are the other recommended online sources for learning CL in addition to PCL. 17:25:53 ? 17:26:24 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:35 Guthur: you mean, after reading the PCL? 17:26:45 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:27:25 madnificent: yeah I suppose, for me PCL was the beginning 17:27:44 and then I kind of dived into coding an CLHS 17:27:51 '(let-over-lambda on-lisp PAIP) 17:28:07 Guthur: coding and CLHS :) 17:28:10 online 17:28:30 on-lisp is available online, lol has a few chapters online 17:28:37 (but it's really cheap iirc) 17:29:18 Someone was interested in CL and I realised I could only recommend PCL from experience 17:29:42 madnificent: 39.95 USD 17:30:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@84-236-57-50.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 17:30:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@84-236-57-50.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:30:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:30:23 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:30:47 Ah crumbs my internet is playing up again 17:31:18 recently my phone has decided to stop receiving HTTP traffic 17:31:28 brb 17:31:46 -!- eric-atl [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: eric-atl] 17:32:12 eric-atl [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:53 Guthur: I really liked The Little Schemer, Seasoned Schemer, and Reasoned Schemer... not exactly CL, but the fundamentals aren't specific to scheme either (it started life as The Little Lisper and maintains examples in CL) 17:33:57 -!- eric-atl [~eric-atl@c-71-56-71-17.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:35:06 Guthur` [~user@212.183.128.20] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:36:38 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:38:42 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:42:31 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 -!- vinian [~vinian@111.161.79.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:45:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55:22 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:01 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.56.241] has joined #lisp 17:56:15 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:32 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:47 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:03:00 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:07 Gentle introduction to symbolic computation, or whatever the name is, might be good. Depends on who it is for I guess. 18:05:20 Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 18:06:53 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 18:08:34 I'll see how PCL goes 18:08:38 -!- lain_ [~lain@e178070052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:29 What I like about PCL is that it is really quick and easy for a beginner to get into it and start using CL 18:09:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:18 it is usually prescribed for beginners but i found that the first to chapters shed lots of light on the use of lists for me, the purely theoretical approach of those chapters made some of the what I thought to be oddities in list processing much clearer 18:10:19 Yeah I have the little schemer, love the format 18:10:19 How about that one with the cartoons and stuff. 18:10:31 Land Of Lisp? 18:10:38 Oh right that was the name. :) 18:10:50 I just finished reading it, it's great 18:10:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:10:57 gentle introduction to symbolic computing that was 18:10:58 Maybe not available on the on-line though. 18:11:09 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:11:34 schmx: I would be tempted to recommend that, if I was recommending a book 18:12:06 at this stage it's not certain if the person in question will actually take the initial interest very far 18:13:11 It seems to me that most books that are not PCL, and I guess Land of Lisp which I haven't checked out, are more 'academic' than practical. Not really catering to the mainstream :) 18:14:06 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:00 mel0on [~user@h-72-75.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:16:04 cpc261 [~Adium@50-52-233-128.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:20 -!- cpc261 [~Adium@50-52-233-128.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:13 On a completely unrelated note, could Lisp ever be suitable for hard real-time systems? 18:17:22 -!- cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:01 -!- maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:06 maxm- [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 18:18:46 wtf 18:19:05 it already was! 18:19:21 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-86-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:19:56 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:10 common lisp? probably not, unless you feel like writing code that never ever conses. 18:21:23 What was the difference between "hard" real-time and the other sort? 18:21:50 (Payroll processing is a real-time application, for the record.) 18:22:14 nyef: not likely to be consider a hard real-time though 18:22:30 where firm deadlines must be met 18:22:45 if it takes one second too long it's not a big deal 18:22:49 Umm. If my paycheck doesn't arrive on time, I'm going to be PISSED. 18:23:15 in a CNC machine if it misses a deadline by 1 second it could likely crash your hardware hard 18:23:54 nyef: IIRC hard real-time is where no input event can be skipped, and every event must be processed within a fixed deadline 18:24:13 Sounds like accounts-payable processing to me. (-: 18:24:20 lol 18:24:21 Guthur`: Having worked with CNC punching machines I can very much confirm this. 18:24:22 Guthur`: ever, i'd say yes. however you may need to write a new lisp implementation for it. 18:25:07 madnificent: suspect that might be the answer 18:25:18 might be a good excuse to actually create a my own Lisp 18:25:28 nyef: fixed, and in the order or milli- or microseconds 18:25:29 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 Guthur`: What the producers of those machines do is have one x86 computer with windows for the control interface, and then when a program is run it is all transfered to another arch and some real-time OS running on that. For security reasons it obviously needs to stop 'instantly' when security perimeter around the machine is broken. Can't have it wait a second for garbage collection :) 18:26:05 dont know if that really speaks to the strengths of lisp 18:27:28 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:50 hard realtime: do all garbage collection immediately. the system will be slow, but you can give hard guarantees :P smarter might be to somehow pause garbage collection so you can't be interrupted... 18:27:53 I'll probably be using some OSS solution for now 18:28:01 Guthur`: I was poking around with real time in CL some year ago.. for audio processing. Seemed like a dead end to me. :) 18:28:05 once I actually build the machine that is, hehe 18:28:57 we are currently processing 1 million records in lisp in less than a second, something like an sql query nothing to complicated, so the processing can be done its persisting data so to any file thats the problem 18:28:59 schmx: crummy, I kind suspected it wouldn't be easy, was just satisfying my curiosity by asking 18:30:01 -so 18:30:18 Guthur`: Supposedly one could hack up a GC that caters to all the needs, and whatnot... Way over my head anyhoo. 18:31:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:31:18 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:19 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:24 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:44 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 schmx: quite likely beyond my chewing capacity as well 18:36:47 -!- ebw`````` [~user@krlh-4d03626d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:39:40 Guthur`: Probably less work to implement a whole new lisp :) 18:41:14 neomage [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:38 -!- smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:59 schmx: maybe not, if you believe in the 80/20 principal 80% of any system takes 20% of the time and the last 20% of a system (the exceptions) takes 80% of the time 18:42:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 18:43:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.56.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:13 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:45:41 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:41 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:09 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:12 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 18:49:08 Harag: Problem is when the exception pops up at the wrong time. 18:50:10 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:50:51 lol 18:51:18 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:52 exceptions pop up all the time, its a general formula and if you can convince the client to ignore exceptions completely till phase 2 you have won ;) 18:51:55 schmx: *crunch* 18:52:34 Harag: and then you probably shouldn't be in the hard real-time market. 18:53:53 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:11 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: vervic] 18:54:27 lol, no probably not but then i have written more than my share of payrolls and did a stint in gprs based tracking systems way back then, so i have gotten close to the hard real-time markets but not quit 18:54:30 +e 18:55:53 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:56:21 if they can get postgresql to process data for airport control towers i think sbcl could handle hard real-time systems 18:56:35 hardware is cheap or so they tell me 18:56:43 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:41 *madnificent* would like to learn electric circuits and control them from lisp 18:58:31 Rambling: I am going through a strange pattern in lisp, first i code, then i notice something, I convert it into higher order or macro, then i delete the old code and put that in, so size reduces, but why cant i figure out the right way from teh begining 18:58:38 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:58:58 Harag: depends on the hard guarantees the systems need. 18:59:35 madnificent: There are plenty of good online resources for *that* :) 18:59:50 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:00:07 b_: it seems to make sense to me. i often write a piece of code and then think "this 'll happen more often" then i create abstractions. or i write the code, see that it works. find it to look too complex, and introduce abstractions to make the code more readable... 19:00:14 Harag: ATC isn't exactly the stress test of technology it might seem like. 19:00:46 schmx: yup, found it relevant for the hard realtime thing. it's somawhet related (i want it so i don't need hard realtime (and because hard realtime might be too slow). 19:01:58 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.6.13] has joined #lisp 19:03:30 -!- sizz_ [~sizz@70-138-242-181.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:04:40 pnq [~nick@ACA2036A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:52 -!- human_bot [lostcase@unaffiliated/changednicks] has left #lisp 19:09:45 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:09:54 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 19:09:58 -!- Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:10:05 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:10:23 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:06 sellout: well besides sending a couple of billions worth of rocket into space how much more real life impact could you get? 19:13:15 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:14:06 sellout: not being critical just curious 19:14:15 Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:25 Harag: True, but it's actually a frighteningly manual system. 19:15:34 A friend recently ran a trail of a new system in ATC towers, and he couldn't use computers for it  he had to write out a stack of index cards with commands on them, and then the controllers would use a bit of math to figure out which card was the right one for the situation and read what they should do. 19:15:42 vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:00 in the tacking industry we had 2 minutes to find a vehicle after the alarm and we had to be within 2m accuracy(informal settlements here in sa) shacks are 3x3 m and stacked on top of each other, that get hectic 19:16:29 sellout: that is scary!!! 19:17:14 Of course, all the index cards were _generated_ by computers, but the actual algo for selecting the right one and following through were all done manually. 19:18:41 sounds like some work could be done in computer leaning there, then again if it was my life on the line I would go with the human gut feel descission 19:18:58 arg!! spelling fairy please intervene! 19:19:32 aloysius21 [~user@99-123-152-51.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:34 Harag: I think it's more because the ATC union is afraid that controllers will lose jobs if things are automated. So everything has to be done in a way that doesn't appear to threaten them. 19:21:40 sellout: well programmer make mistakes and more often than not 19:21:44 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@37.79.97.27] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:21:48 so do humans 19:21:54 50/50 19:22:24 Harag: But this system just unions the mistakes of both. 19:23:01 So, about GC, lack of control there frightens me, but talking to a CCL guy, I was told that it's quite possible to tune generation sizes such that you're never "away" for more than tiny spans of time. What's generally considered acceptable for RT processing? 19:23:32 ChibaPet: real-time isn't necessarily about tight deadlines as much as *always* meeting them. 19:24:25 ChibaPet: You can also disable the GC (in some systems, CCL for example) when you need to. 19:24:41 I'd think it would just take some paying attention to tune a GC and operate in such a way that you're not generating a lot of garbage, and hence be very reasonable for realtime work. But I'm speculating. 19:24:44 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.6.13] has left #lisp 19:25:01 sellout: as an example i once wrote a simple asp app for a friend years ago, and over a weekend of testing i never got an exception that i jokingly gave the error "little fucker not found, it was there a moment ago, what did you do with it", they got the exception within 2 minutes when the system was demoed... it happens 19:26:25 Harag: Not debating that  but this system is still programmed, so all those errors are there, plus you get the case-by-case errors of humans doing the selection. They are two different kinds of errors, and now you get both. 19:26:40 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:43 So, not that this strictly matters to anyone, but here's how I got over my fear of GC: It's really the same work I'd be doing manually, so the answer is understanding your code well enough to know what produces garbage (which you're already doing with a manual memory management environment), understanding your GC well enough to be able to accurately characterise how much work it needs to do in various situations, and being able to tune it such that yo 19:26:44 pkhuong: the question is if the meeting them involves persisting the data or not, I argue that if persistance is not a key issue cl as it is now can handle it 19:27:59 sbcl/cl in general allows for hot code swapping like erlang, right? I'm not getting many results on google for it, but I think I remember a lisper mentioning it 19:28:40 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-bbmphghtjgxyotsk] has joined #lisp 19:28:42 We can redefine functions in a running system, if that's what you're asking. 19:29:20 Erlang has some introspection infrastructure around it as well, which makes it slightly different from saying "this symbol now points here". But yes. 19:29:52 And of course this could be done with CL. 19:30:25 pkhuong: and if cl cant handle the load straight on scaling across hardware with cl could 19:31:26 dekuked: doing that atomically is another can of worms. 19:31:33 snearch [~snearch@f053009243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 pkhuong: Being able to query a version would suffice, no? 19:32:21 Oh, atomically. 19:32:35 ChibaPet: Erlang's in-place update is partially implemented through library framework 19:32:43 So, "call-with-these-arguments-if-the-version-is-what-I-want" then. :P 19:33:11 ChibaPet: no, it's the whole methodology of code organization 19:34:37 sellout: of the topic a bit, but it was an article about fussy logic on a boeing that got me interested in lisp in the first place ... hehehe 19:35:11 Harag: would you say robot programming is real-time programming? 19:37:13 pjb: if the robot had to make the same choice as humans, yes in a way because of the inherent complexity, then again the success would not be based on the speed of calculations but he accurateness of it 19:37:31 Then you would say python is suited for real-time programming, wouldn't you? 19:38:12 Joreji [~thomas@69-097.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:27 any language that can take in the amount of data that needs to be taken into account for a real time descission would surfice, how easy it would be to do in that language is a different matter 19:40:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.140.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:34 -!- Eyes|Infinite [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:54 pjb: i love lisp and i sell programs written in it for a living. But i have seen people do amaizing things in lots of languages, the question is at what cost to the programmer, customer and the eventual user... which most of the time comes down to good vs bad design using the tools chosen 19:43:54 Harag: are you implying that the language doesn't matter, or that more expressive languages give you an edge? your advise/reasoning seems to miss a concluding remark. 19:44:27 another topic that I was considering recently, has anyone done a 'live' programming environment with CL 19:44:41 and not the REPL before someone mentions it 19:44:46 Guthur`: no, nobody. 19:44:46 Guthur`: define live :) 19:45:02 Guthur`: Do you mean specifically like music live coding? 19:45:05 Guthur`: we all send patches of punched cards and get answers from sbcl the following day. 19:45:11 madnificent: changes to code being reflected immmediately, compile on the fly or some such 19:45:18 s/patches/batches/ 19:45:31 Guthur`: That sounds like normal programming  19:45:38 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:45:53 Guthur`: i've performed updates to a cashier system which was actively being used whilst i was updating it. rather cool to look at them from another room and see them suddenly get new screens (they liked it) 19:45:54 This trolling is too coarse. 19:46:00 sellout: Let me try and find some demos 19:46:13 madnificent: you have the classic cost triangle (time allowed, cost, functionality) if you fit the problem to that mostly any language will work, but one of the legs will cost you 19:46:16 pjb: by me? 19:46:19 Yes. 19:46:30 how do you figure 19:46:31 not trolling at all 19:47:03 madnificent: i have written a payroll system in vb6 that kicked sap's ass because i could comprimise on on of the legs 19:47:35 Harag: yeah, it makes sense 19:48:25 by the way that payroll fitted on a stiffy (source + compiled exe)... its all relative 19:48:40 if i had to do it again i would use lisp 19:49:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:43 and as fate would have it i might get the opportunity, waiting for a response on a quote to the same client 10 years later ... roflmao 19:49:58 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 19:52:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A35F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:52:39 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:53:08 alexshendi [~alexshend@ip-2-204-86-201.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:54 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:55:21 Hello, I need some help with Portable Hemlock from the current quicklisp dist. How do I compile a buffer? C-c doesnt't seem to work. 19:56:48 senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:52 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:03 madnificent: another example, i worked for a company that sold workflow systems, the system was written in c++ and getting changes in it was a nightmare.... so we supplemented client installs with vb6 front ends by passing the need for changes to the main system, eventually the company accepted vb6 as the better frontend language, but that was because the time to delivery leg was more important than the other legs of the triangle... ie some one 19:57:05 has to pay he bill 19:57:08 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 19:57:08 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:58 Lisp Implementation: SBCL 1.0.54 , OpenBSD 5.1. 19:57:59 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 pjb: so did my answers to your questions suffice? 19:59:59 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 If python is good enough for robotics, ie. real-time systems, then Common Lisp implementations that are more efficient than python should be good enough for real-time too! 20:00:08 alexshendi: ask on the mailing list, I don't think anybody here uses it 20:00:26 I tried to compile phemlock without success. 20:01:17 fe[nl]ix: Is there a mailing list for phemlock? 20:01:30 fe[nl]ix: Thanks! 20:01:55 an example of the live coding I was talking about is in Bret Victors Inventing on Principle 20:01:59 talked about here http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4460 20:02:19 pjb: the hemlock in quicklisp is lichtblau's qt fork, not the original one 20:02:20 I can't find the exact time stamp in video 20:02:39 alexshendi: http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/phemlock-devel 20:02:43 pjb: (ql:quicklocad "hemlock") did it for me :) 20:03:17 fe[nl]ix: Thanks! 20:16:13 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:31 arbscht: Ping 20:16:47 pooooennnnngg! 20:16:55 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:21:05 alexshendi: it went dead there all over the place...dont know what happened!?!? No net split messages or anything.... 20:21:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:06 Harag: What #lisp? 20:22:33 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-bbmphghtjgxyotsk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:50 yeah waiting for a couple of responses but dead 20:23:00 any ways 20:23:47 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:49 good night fellows, may you have beautiful programmer dreams!!!! 20:24:09 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-erdxqbpsqrzgboao] has joined #lisp 20:24:26 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-erdxqbpsqrzgboao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:28 -!- vervic [~vervic@p5498AEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: vervic] 20:26:07 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-vpqwwyntjnsjogmx] has joined #lisp 20:28:05 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@ip-2-204-86-201.web.vodafone.de] has left #lisp 20:28:53 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:32:34 -!- Joreji 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the killer of that. A slower (amortized) implementation is better than one that pauses unpredictably but is otherwise faster 23:36:06 pjb: that's also why you don't see java there (though it has a larger use in non-rt embedded) 23:37:14 -!- kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:07 there are hard real-time JVMs with bounded GC pauses, but I've not encountered anyone that uses them 23:40:38 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:19 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 23:42:51 -!- daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:23 saage_ [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 23:53:11 -!- saage [~saage@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:53:51 daem0n [~yaargh@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has joined #lisp 23:55:09 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:56:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 23:57:22 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:58:12 jasom: GC pause don't exist in incremental GC's. 23:58:20 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.179.139] has joined #lisp 23:58:29 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.179.139] has quit [Changing host] 23:58:29 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 23:58:49 it is much easier to change a memory management strategy when it's done by the system than when it's hard-wired in the program source. 23:59:16 C++ also has deallocation pauses.