00:00:34 cause it seems to be tailoed for closette ......rather 00:00:45 or do i have to have mop loaded ? 00:01:08 wait all have mops onbaord not ? 00:01:13 i mean the implementations.... 00:01:26 or do i have to use the cl-mop package ? 00:02:31 all other toplevel functions are correctly finding their methods it seems..... 00:02:38 and i wonder why that one fails..... 00:04:20 there's no gf for it defined....but there's a defmethod for it just not in the file using it i think....it's in the losp/lib/console.lisp file...rather... 00:04:40 maybe something was forgotten to be exported .... 00:04:51 well, i'll have a look tomorrow again... 00:06:47 -!- prip [~foo@host102-133-dynamic.22-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:09:07 wtetzner_ [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:56 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:59 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:09:59 FareWell [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:52 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:32 prip [~foo@host95-133-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:21:03 homie: and movitz probably uses pcl itself. 00:21:34 hrmmm 00:22:04 i really have no clue... 00:22:11 didn't read all the source tree yet 00:22:30 i don't know what is where how defined and gets loaded when....blah 00:22:34 xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 00:25:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:27:43 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:30:20 KDr2 [~kdr2@125.33.181.192] has joined #lisp 00:37:24 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 00:39:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:02 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has joined #lisp 00:45:38 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:44 -!- arcanis [~Mael@60.22.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:18 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 00:51:24 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:51:39 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 00:52:53 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:55:55 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:40 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:37 sacho [~sacho@87-126-39-10.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 01:00:00 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:01:54 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:17 -!- sacho_ [~sacho@87-126-39-10.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:09:53 replsos [~chatzilla@182.99.248.221] has joined #lisp 01:12:45 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:12:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24515.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:16:16 -!- jwz-watcher [4730093d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.48.9.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:16:42 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:45 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-126-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:20:13 -!- hitecnologys1 [~noname@94.137.16.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:45 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:30:14 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:44 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:33:17 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 01:34:42 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:34:51 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 01:37:10 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:37:16 It's more on the "secret weapon" side of Paul Graham's programming language taxonomy 01:38:11 arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 01:43:42 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 01:43:53 what ? 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03:33:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:34:07 --control-stack-size 1024 03:34:14 it goes with MB i think.... 03:34:36 pnq [~nick@172.132.9.252] has joined #lisp 03:34:39 nope, don' t take the number literally.... 03:34:44 default is 4 or so.... 03:34:50 just double it 03:34:53 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:34:58 if it fails double it again.... 03:35:16 Modius: also... look for rampant recursion 03:35:34 increasing stack size want solve stack overflows 03:35:38 jep, maybe the case too 03:36:00 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.57, Hunchentoot 1.2.3, Drakma 1.2.6, ABCL 1.0.1, CMUCL 20c 03:36:36 it's actually more probable that it is an bug.... 03:37:34 This is during compile-file by the way. . . . 03:37:48 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:02 did you declare a recursive function inline? 03:38:42 Possibly - I guess it doesn't limit inlining? I removed the inline directive; but it occurred to me I didn't restart the image. . . 03:39:27 cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 03:39:42 Yep - it was inline + recursion - is SBCL inlining that aggressive by design? 03:40:14 yes 03:40:59 heh 03:41:05 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:42:52 Modius: SBCL comes from a line of rather performance-oriented compilers :) 03:43:57 Ran my sanity/unit test for functional red-black-tree. . . . CCL-64 and LW-32 on host machine: ~90 seconds. SBCL on a linux VM - 20 seconds. 03:44:07 (on performance) - "yeah, no s**t" 03:44:22 no sweat? 03:44:31 stassats: one letter less ;) 03:44:54 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:28 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:19 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:23 -!- springz is now known as springz-lunch 03:46:32 -!- cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:48:00 hmm... if I wanted to make some equivalent to GCC's assembly intrinsics in SBCL, I should go about it with defining the instructions I want then forming them into VOPs, then call those VOPs like they were normal functions? 03:48:00 There's probably a staggering amount of inlining going on - I nixed the self-recursive call; but given how aggressive it is it probably rolled the rest up into a single function. 03:48:47 I find the results odd - this "unit test" is allocating/tossing links like crazy, I'd have assumed it would favor the copying GCs (that this would be a degenerate case favoring copying GC over conservative) 03:49:22 p_l: you'll need to define a know function, then to define an ordinary function which calls itself, (for cases like funcall) and the VOP itself 03:49:33 stassats: ah, thanks 03:49:39 s/know/known/ 03:49:51 p_l: an example: https://github.com/stassats/swap-bytes 03:51:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:54 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:53:07 thanks! 03:56:06 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:58:46 -!- pnq [~nick@172.132.9.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:59:34 lobo_d_b_ [~lobo_d_b@181.132.179.139] has joined #lisp 04:00:28 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:28 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:53 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:53 -!- scode [~scode@pollux.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:01:21 pnq [~nick@AC8409FC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:38 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:01:58 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:02:19 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 04:02:37 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 04:02:44 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 04:02:51 scode [~scode@pollux.scode.org] has joined #lisp 04:03:46 -!- replsos [~chatzilla@182.99.248.221] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120423130206]] 04:06:36 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:14:10 -!- springz-lunch is now known as springz 04:15:39 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:21:39 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 04:27:46 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@101.63.185.162] has joined #lisp 04:32:40 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.144.190.58] has joined #lisp 04:35:22 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:19 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:36:52 "Component :F-UNDERSCORE not found" do people really use that in libraries? where has the world gone to! 04:41:52 that was cl-oauth, and what's funny, i don't see where it's used 04:42:09 i removed the dependency and from the package use list, and it compiled fine 04:49:15 damn, this cl-oauth thing is too complex for me 04:50:54 -!- lobo_d_b_ [~lobo_d_b@181.132.179.139] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:52:43 there goes my plan to automatically put "Fix released" on launchpad bugs 04:53:12 i can do it faster by just sending requests to the browser interface than dealing with this oauth nonsense 04:55:26 stassats: what about f-underscore? 04:55:37 what what about f-underscore? 04:55:55 "< stassats > "Component :F-UNDERSCORE not found" ..." 04:56:04 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:18 well, it's a convince library to turn your code into a fruit salad, it shouldn't be used for libraries 04:56:52 and it's not used in cl-oath, just has a dependency listed 04:57:02 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:57:27 ah 04:57:43 is f-underscore consideder bad practice? 04:57:51 asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has joined #lisp 04:58:15 it is considered by me, as you can see, i want to read standard CL code with normal lambdas 04:58:46 I can see it useful, but if it's not even used... 04:59:12 though my appreciation for it is definitely lower than it was 04:59:16 because there's an n+1 convenience libraries with different interfaces, solving non-existent problems 04:59:24 and i don't want to deal with them 04:59:35 stassats: and this one doesn't even try being comprehensive enough 04:59:57 *p_l* *shudders* at hu.dwim.def 05:05:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:06:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:20 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 05:07:34 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 05:08:16 but well, def and defstar(?) were I think the only two such libraries that I really found to be any good 05:08:28 https://twitter.com/#!/cbarrett/status/204425890132787200 05:09:12 haha 05:09:20 :D 05:10:14 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:11:17 lol 05:11:33 () 05:13:54 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:17 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:26:13 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-kkgilackdhxopmxh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:30:59 nikodemus 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[~Glossina@207-225-94-191.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:04:06 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Game over] 07:07:58 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:47 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e1e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:37 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:09:41 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:09:51 what's the best way to hack a project you're currently using via quicklisp? are you better off deleting the quicklisp version, creating a local clone of the project repo, and having quicklisp use the local clone from now on? 07:12:19 good morning 07:12:34 xan_ [~xan@124x35x12x66.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:13:11 mvilleneuve: good evening (from a night creature) 07:13:35 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:13:46 robot-beethoven: just put the project to local-projects, it will take precedence over the vanilla version 07:16:24 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Quit: restart machine] 07:16:34 jjkola_work: perfect, thanks 07:18:17 jjkola_work: ah, and I see it in the faq now. for an optimal future, i'll try to scan more carefully before I pester #lisp 07:21:57 Xach: Unexpected HTTP status for #: 403 07:21:57 [Condition of type QL-HTTP:UNEXPECTED-HTTP-STATUS] 07:22:13 on a (ql:update-all-dists) 07:22:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:21 Xach: and on retrying I get this: You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2012-05-20. 07:23:24 what now? 07:26:49 -!- arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:54 flip214: I ran into a similar problem, if you need the library you might hold off on updating until it's fixed; if you already updated you can roll back with http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html 07:28:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:28:23 Vivitron: the "problem" is that the other systems won't get updated automatically. 07:28:44 ql:quickload fetches the current version just fine, but I'll have to check manually which ones need updating. 07:28:53 thanks all the same, though. 07:29:21 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:27 morning 07:30:27 [package trivial-gray-streams] 07:30:27 ; 07:30:27 ; compilation unit aborted 07:30:27 ; caught 1 fatal ERROR condition 07:31:17 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:20 springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has joined #lisp 07:31:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-67.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:33:52 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:59 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 07:36:37 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:38:45 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 07:38:59 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:11 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 07:47:38 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-126-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:49:13 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:57 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:25 nauar [~nauar@ip235200.bcn.altecom.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:50 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 arcanis [~Mael@tui75-h01-31-33-44-141.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:05:59 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 08:09:22 I created a project with quickproject a while ago... how does quicklisp find it to load? I don't see anything about it in local-projects, or anywhere else that I've looked... 08:11:47 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-pjfxdoeygfmbulkn] has joined #lisp 08:13:45 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 08:13:48 robot-beethoven: you'll have to put it in local-projects - or at least a symlink, iirc. 08:17:37 robot-beethoven: an alternative to local-projects is to use the asdf source registry to point asdf to your system 08:20:22 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 08:20:49 kwa1977 [~kwa@101.160.70.147] has joined #lisp 08:21:26 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.16.36] has joined #lisp 08:22:18 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:23:47 flip214, Vivitron: what does quickproject do? it's currently working, but I never set it up and want to move it to a new directory 08:24:31 robot-beethoven: AFAIK it just generates a few template files - not bound to the directory, so you should be able to move it. 08:25:20 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:26:57 robot-beethoven: there are two different answers for your running lisp image in which you run quickproject:make-project and for a new lisp image. for the running image look at the (pushnew ...) line in make-project 08:27:49 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:29:33 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:44 robot-beethoven: for a new image, quickproject isn't involved afaik. quicklisp looks for projects in local-projects, and via asdf. your asdf might be pointed at your project through ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/projects.conf, or maybe some other method 08:29:51 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 08:30:19 Vivitron: that's what I'm curious about: I start a fresh lisp image (with quicklisp loaded in it), and quicklisp 08:30:29 "knows" about my project 08:31:03 but I can't seem to find any asdf configuration files.... nothing in ~/.config 08:31:32 robot-beethoven: hmm, I'm afraid I'm ignorant on the other ways asdf finds its systems 08:32:49 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfnersqsupvjmyak] has joined #lisp 08:34:15 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:17 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:39:43 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:42:18 fsgxdroid [~fsgxdroid@112.244.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:44:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@124x35x12x66.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:46:05 xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:48:00 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 08:49:57 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:53:15 -!- kwa1977 [~kwa@101.160.70.147] has left #lisp 08:53:38 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:18 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:58:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 09:00:51 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:03 robot-beethoven: IIRC quicklisp tells ASDF to look in your local-projects, too. 09:05:41 flip214: but the quickproject I started a month ago isn't in local-projects, yet quicklisp/asdf finds it, I'm wondering how 09:07:08 arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has joined #lisp 09:08:15 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:35 robot-beethoven: I've taken the chance to look at the asdf manual, it's actually quite nice -- sections 7 and 3 seem relevant, along with (mapcar (lambda (x) (format t "~A, ~A~%" x (funcall x))) asdf:*default-source-registries*) 09:11:39 robot-beethoven: I guess I am still making an assumption that quicklisp finds this thing via asdf -- it's not within your quicklisp directory right? 09:12:28 Vivitron: couldn't find mention of my project anywhere in the quicklisp directory, so I'm guessing it's asdf 09:12:33 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:12:38 -!- fsgxdroid [~fsgxdroid@112.244.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:16 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:23 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:14:32 Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.12.92] has joined #lisp 09:14:45 robot-beethoven: you don't know where your project is? Try (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system "my-system")) 09:19:00 I know where the project is, I just don't know how asdf finds it 09:20:28 though I just realized, asdf/quicklisp aren't finding it anymore! hadn't actually quickloading it yet today... not sure what changed... the quicklisp update? 09:20:38 wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-131-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:22:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-202.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 09:22:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-202.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:22:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:23:32 robot-beethoven: maybe not worth chasing down why it *was* working, then:) here's a guide to let asdf/quicklisp find it wherever you put it http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 09:23:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:24:22 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-126-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:01 Vivitron: I'll just move the project into local-projects and pretend nothing happened 09:25:59 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.151.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26:22 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-81-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:28:05 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has joined #lisp 09:28:10 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:28:47 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 09:29:34 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:55 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 09:34:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:34:21 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:34:42 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:09 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:36:21 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:27 How do I output a CRLF line ending in a format call independently of os/implementation? Are there char entitities equivalent to CR and LF? 09:49:10 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:49:14 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@125.33.181.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:55 antoszka: #\Return #\Newline may do the trick. But really, if that matters, are you certain you're not dealing with a binary format/protocol? 09:53:43 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 09:54:04 *Xach* broke it 09:54:30 You never know what #\Newline may output. 09:54:56 antoszka: CR and LF are not characters, they're control codes. If you want to "output" them, you need a binary stream, and to write 13 and 10. 09:55:19 antoszka: or you may try: (format nil "Bad~C~C" (code-char 13) (code-char 10)) 09:56:03 antoszka: this is bad, because further output of that string on a character stream may convert 13, or 10, to a newline code sequence, thus breaking your expectation. 09:56:37 You could convert the string to binary and output it to a binary stream, but my advice would be to convert "Bad" to binary and just append 13 and 10 instead of going thru the string. 09:58:54 antoszka: there's also a reader macro to write byte vectors as strings. 10:01:03 antonv [2e35c32a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.42] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 antoszka: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii.html#ASCII-DISPATCH-MACRO 10:04:37 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:04:40 -!- holycow_ [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:06:39 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:08:39 antoszka: (format stream "~C~C" (code-char 13) (code-char 10)) might or might not be what you want 10:09:38 If stream uses the MS-DOS encoding for newlines, and if #\Newline is one of (code-char 13) or (code-char 10), then it won't. 10:09:43 Thanks guys. Certainly the protocol is not binary, it's just a windows inifile that expects CRLF line endings. 10:09:46 s/and if/or if/ 10:09:59 I want to be able to generate them independently of the OS/implememantion. 10:10:05 antoszka: then specify an external-format that has a CRLF newline. 10:10:17 pjb: OK, thanks. 10:10:28 However, external-format are implementation dependant. 10:10:32 heh 10:10:38 If you want to generate them independently of the OS/implememantion, you will have to use a binary stream. 10:10:52 OK. 10:11:03 Not that :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) be ensured to be utterly implementation independant, but it's a much better bet. 10:11:14 :) 10:11:17 s/en/as/ 10:11:24 just give up, buy ice cream, and use visual basic 10:11:31 :-) 10:11:45 Why do you want to generate windows file on linux? 10:11:59 You could just generate text file, and let any transfer program do the conversion. 10:12:02 something for ~/.wine would be one example 10:12:16 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 10:12:24 *maxm-* runs iqfeed in separate wine session 10:12:28 IIRC mtools has a command to convert newlines. 10:12:50 Yeah, crlf conversion is certainly an option, just wanted to do it in one step in lisp. 10:13:19 antoszka: use external-format and #+ to select the right format to get the CRLF newlines. 10:13:27 antoszka: then you can write a trivial-external-format library. 10:13:44 just write-char (code-char 13) then (code-char 10) 10:13:51 antoszka: there have been some work done around it in asdf recently. 10:13:57 ignore next line of someone telling you about ebsdic or vax 10:13:59 No, write-char will convert #\newline! 10:14:30 Ie. it will break if you run it with :external-format :default on MS-Windows. 10:14:43 hmm 10:14:50 pfft! I didn't have to mention MVS or EBCDIC :-) 10:15:31 pjb: what will (write-char (code-char 10)) convert from what to what? 10:16:27 then, (if (= 1 (with-output-to-string (s) (write-char #\Newline s))) use \Return \Newline, otherwise use just \Newline 10:16:30 if #\newline is (code-char 10) and if your external-format converts #\newline to CR LF, then (write-char (code-char 10)) will output CR LF. 10:16:44 (if (= 1 (length (with-output-to-string ... 10:16:51 No, output-to-string doesn't convert #\Newline, since it outputs characters. 10:17:09 Outputing to an external stream will generate bytes, even for a character stream, unless you have an OS that has text files. 10:17:13 maxm-: the replacement could happen at the external-format layer. Arguably, it should. 10:17:31 would not with-output-to-string use same default externals format as opening a file for output? 10:17:43 It doesn't have to. 10:17:51 It just copies the characters. 10:18:04 man, guy has a practical problem, yet #lisp invents the way to make it more complicated then it is 10:18:05 maxm-: there is no external format in with-output-to-string: the value is a string, not a string encoded into a bitstream. 10:18:11 pjb: why do you expect (code-char 10) to return #\newline? 10:18:12 Check it, there's no :external-format parameter to with-output-to-string. 10:18:21 it is possible. 10:18:23 harish [~harish@119.234.183.123] has joined #lisp 10:18:31 maxm-: like I said, using each character separately may work. If it's one-off, try and see. 10:18:32 (eql (code-char 10) #\Newline) => t 10:18:34 and often the case. 10:18:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:18:42 *maxm-* can't help but think there need to be some easy way of doing this 10:18:49 I love those discussions :) 10:18:50 If it must work reliably on a variety of platform, using bytes is the way to go. 10:18:58 Yes, use an external format generating CR LF for #\Newline. 10:19:09 But the specification of this external format is implementation dependant. 10:19:09 pjb: still, (eql #\linefeed #\newline) will also be true 10:19:14 The alternative is to use a binary stream. 10:19:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:19:17 pjb: does not mean (code-char 10) will return newline 10:19:21 jdz: often. 10:19:24 jdz: yes. 10:19:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:19:31 pjb: yes, whet they are the same 10:19:40 Often, not always! 10:21:45 *maxm-* mumbles something about "thats why we can't have nice things" 10:21:51 maxm-: for example, babel will both encode things in the format specified, and insert cr/lf/crlf for end of line. 10:21:58 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 10:22:02 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:12 maxm-: the difference is that with the other programming language they just blindly do the wrong thing and don't care. 10:22:13 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 10:22:40 babel, as cesarum.ascii generate byte vectors. 10:22:50 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:24:05 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:24:26 -!- springz [~springz@116.231.109.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:25:30 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:21 -!- mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:27:27 maxm-: you want to see not being able to have nice things? Look at the mess that python 2.x's strings have become as they slowly realised that the world is not ascii, then not ucs-2. There's a certainy inherent complexity to the messy world we live in, and implementation-specific external formats or portable alternative like babel are, to me, a reasonable way to address it. 10:28:09 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:32:27 ok guess you convinced me. So original inquirer just needs to figure out which babel encoding will do the newline->crlf? Does babel generalize external format names, or use implementation ones? 10:32:58 -!- xan_ [~xan@p4244-ipbffx02marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:32:59 You could use babel if you used the binary stream solution. 10:33:16 But it would be overkill if you only have to generate Ascii files. 10:33:28 babel handles all the encoding itself. 10:34:04 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 10:38:44 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.183.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:39:17 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:40:25 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:41:43 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:48 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 10:43:26 Joreji [~thomas@66-196.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:45:49 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[~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:10:37 Do people still use Lisp for something? If yes, where do they use it? 14:11:06 Yes. Everywhere. 14:11:39 http://g.co/maps/8c4g3 14:11:41 pjb is himself written in Lisp, which is proof that it's still viable and current. 14:12:08 I use it to generate instances for network optimisation programs, and then to generate reports on numerical experiments. 14:12:34 Wow, there are a great many Lispers floating south and west of California. 14:12:55 *Xach* is sad that the map became so useless 14:14:28 google's buggy? 14:14:41 that's because they're not written in lisp, but in python. Good for them. 14:15:02 They're spending their time counting spaces instead of finding bugs 14:15:05 arnsa: were you here about 10 hours ago? 14:15:14 Oh, odd. There are multiple pages, and going to the second page shows a more expected distribution in the U.S. 14:15:17 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21819.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:15:49 madnificent, I'm in this channel for about 1hr 14:16:09 why? 14:16:22 Oh, gods, it still shows me in Indiana. I must fix that. 14:18:16 arnsa: the exact same question was asked yesterday and we ended up wondering if it ended it a wannabe troll :) 14:18:36 blitz_` [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:41 madnificent, meh, that wasn't me 14:18:48 tyson1 [~Ian@74.13.218.50] has joined #lisp 14:18:51 arnsa: lisp is used in many fields. aside from embedded systems (which could be possible too, and it's used for stuff like it anyways), it really is a great solution in many cases 14:19:01 arnsa: also, no worries, just checking :) 14:19:22 madnificent, okay, thanks 14:19:28 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:20:22 arnsa: it's not really simple to find a non-self-employed job in it though. but those jobs exist. just yesterday i realized that intel, for instance, uses lisp in its HPC research (and that may not sound practical, but it really is figuring out how we can practically make things very fast). 14:21:19 madnificent, I don't really get the point actually of using Lisp now, when there are so much great, fast and powerful language just for example like C. 14:21:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-202.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:21:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-202.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:21:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 14:21:46 arnsa: now you're trolling 14:22:18 arnsa: good then. ##c might be a better forum. 14:22:36 H4ns, no I'm not 14:22:39 arnsa: if that's your real opinion. i beg you to learn lisp. i promise you that it'll be a real eye-opener! it may be one of the oldest languages, but really, it's amazing how for behind C is. 14:22:51 s/for/far/ 14:22:59 arnsa: Try the same on #Clojure they may have a more raedy answer just for you. 14:23:25 (If I understand correctly how you measure a language's usefulness) 14:23:34 madnificent, I'm already watching MIT lectures about LISP 14:24:01 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 14:24:02 arnsa: Also, this channel is actually about Common Lisp so you should ask #scheme and maybe a few others too. 14:24:06 -!- Skola [~Skola@89.184.179.185] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:24:06 ynniv_ [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:13 arnsa: and i don't mean that with any discontent towards C btw 14:24:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:25:37 .join #clojure 14:25:58 naryl, and what's there? 14:26:02 I've been trying to read MOP and I guess I'm pretty confused. Is CLOS an emergent property of CL? Or was CL designed with certain features to specifically allow CLOS? 14:26:23 CLOS came later. 14:26:29 arnsa: we use lisp because we think it is better than other languages. now go and educate yourself about lisp and about other languages so that you can judge yourself. thank you. 14:26:32 arnsa: There are other lists. 14:26:35 dekuked: Lisp was designed (or discovered as some call it), and it's simply possible to implement CLOS and the MOP in it :) 14:26:41 *lisps 14:26:53 CL was specified first, then CLOS was built on top, then CL was re-specified to include CLOS. 14:27:05 Skola [~Skola@89.184.179.185] has joined #lisp 14:27:31 morning 14:27:43 ah, okay. that makes sense. I was just reading about flavors, and I was wondering if for clos they said "hey, the implementation would be simpler if we had blah" 14:27:51 So, it looks like there's possibly enough data to correct the map. I want to look for a reasonable way to export and import data to counter vandalism though. 14:29:16 ChibaPet: bad data is half the problem. another half is the fact that you have to go through multiple "pages" of pins, rather than seeing everything. 14:29:21 there may be a third half. 14:31:16 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-243-68.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:31:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:31:53 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 14:32:41 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 14:32:41 Pins are too big? 14:33:17 Someone dragged a bunch of pins into the Pacific. But many of them have place names written in them. 14:33:37 (More importantly, my pin is no longer in the midwest.) 14:33:47 arnsa: C is much slower than lisp. Check http://cliki.net/Performance ; since you've not read http://cliki.net before coming here, you indeed are trolling. 14:34:16 pjb: Enough noise. 14:34:39 pjb, yeah, other people says I'm trolling, but I don't even know that I troll now 14:34:40 strange 14:35:02 arnsa: you started the trolling and now pjb continues. he's easily started. 14:35:04 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 14:35:07 Can't you understand that I'm new to Lisp and I'm thinking about learning it? 14:35:10 I don't troll 14:35:14 Greetings lispers 14:35:14 there's no point for me to do that 14:35:21 arnsa: then don't. 14:35:22 I just wanted to know a little bit more about Lisp 14:35:38 arnsa: http://cliki.net will gives you all the pointers you need. 14:35:50 arnsa: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 14:36:01 arnsa: grab a book. or a tutorial. this is not the place to get a good, tailored answer to the question "is lisp better than foo" or "why would you use lisp when there is c" 14:36:02 arnsa: also check #clnoobs 14:36:06 Has that page been updated recently? 14:36:11 ThomasH: yes. 14:36:40 pjb: Ok, good deal. 14:36:45 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 are there any metrics about the average overhead of using cl-cont? like for weblocks, how expensive is it to create one per viewer? 14:37:00 Lisp related: http://twitpic.com/9nild1 ; proof that God wants us to write lisp, not python :-) 14:37:07 has anyone seen the MIT courses? would that be the right thing to watch? 14:37:23 arnsa: what is your current background. you know C, do you know other languages? 14:37:32 arnsa: Almost every CL book begins with the answer to this question. Try PCL or Successful Lisp. 14:37:44 minion: PCL 14:37:44 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:37:52 ThomasH: but there's some argument about the complete goodness of "Getting Going with CL" articles; eg. it advises Aquamacs on MacOSX instead of emacsformacosx, and it doesn't mention paredit. 14:38:00 madnificent, I'm not good with C, just learning it ;-) 14:38:04 ThomasH: so I guess we'll have to write our own articles directly on cliki. 14:38:11 -!- Radium_ [~rajesh.na@117.203.12.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:38:22 arnsa: any other languages? 14:38:31 madnificent: yes, those sicp videos are mind blowing. Definitely something to watch. 14:38:40 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 pjb: It's actually a good sign that getting started guides are a moving target. Means the CL ecosystem is dynamic. 14:39:05 madnificent, nop, I just know a little bit of Python and PHP, but only A LITTLE BIT 14:39:07 arnsa: also, look into setting up emacs starter-kit and starter-kit-lisp. that really helped me. they require emacs 24 by the way. 14:39:57 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-52.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:40:22 arnsa: This will draw some boo's, but: http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 14:40:36 i always forget the name of the introductory book about lisp. available online. i t teaches programming constructs in general. it always looked like a good read to me, but i started with PCL. 14:40:41 anyone? 14:41:08 gentle! 14:41:08 land of lisp? 14:41:29 The Little LoL. :) 14:41:56 minion: tell madnificent about PCL 14:41:56 madnificent: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:42:03 arnsa: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ might be interesting as well. it takes time to explain programming in general. you'll be able to reuse much of the knowledge for other programming languages also. if you like practical stuff, the PCL is just awesome (but it assumes you know much about it). 14:42:19 jdz: if you don't know OO, i doubt that PCL is the best start 14:42:21 madnificent: oh, you mentioned PCL yourself lol 14:42:41 madnificent: why? 14:42:42 jdz: and not only OO, the wider range of it (like exceptions etc etc). 14:43:07 because it compares the features to those of other languages, and then tops with features lisp has and others don't... 14:43:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-196.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:44:09 i have not noticed that in the parts i have read of the book 14:44:18 PCL's treatment of objects only consumes a couple of chapters. 14:44:23 but then again, i have not read it from cover to cover 14:45:14 I don't think pcl depends on any prior knowledge related to any paradigm. 14:46:01 in fact, I wish I didn't know about java oo, because that's made learning clos pretty painful 14:46:09 dekuked: i don't think that pcl is a good book for a beginning programmer 14:46:46 dekuked: it assumes general programming knowledge, and it does not stay entirely invisible the gigamonkey was a former java programmer. 14:46:57 SICP is okay for a beginner. 14:47:04 h4ns: ah, right, forgot about that. you're right. 14:47:28 minion: gentle 14:47:28 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 14:47:29 -!- ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120509070325]] 14:47:32 right, sicp or gentle. 14:47:36 well when i had to read sicp, I skipped it and read this: http://www.htdp.org/ 14:47:44 minion: sicp 14:47:44 sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 14:47:48 at least after reading enough sicp to realize that I had no clue what was going on 14:48:56 I should probably read that... 14:49:11 kilon [~kilon@188.4.20.228.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:49:21 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 -!- ynniv_ [~ynniv@c-76-23-252-81.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv_] 14:52:11 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@74.13.218.50] has left #lisp 14:53:04 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:53:32 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:06 Hm. 14:54:10 minion: htdp 14:54:10 htdp: How To Design Programs, an online textbook in introductory CS using PLT Scheme, available at http://www.htdp.org/ 14:54:22 Thank you guys for giving me so much information about Lisp! 14:54:38 Can we update Minion? A more useful link might be to the current version, for HtDP. 14:54:54 arnsa: and remember, go read http://cliki.net ; it knows all we know. 14:54:57 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/ 14:55:05 pjb: Untrue 14:55:05 pjb, sure 14:55:13 tyson1 [~Ian@74.13.218.50] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 Xach: what, you keep some secrets? 14:55:57 pjb: cliki is not a universal repository of information about lisp stuff, and to suggest it is is extremely misleading. 14:56:02 minion: htdp 14:56:03 htdp: How To Design Programs, an online textbook in introductory CS using PLT Scheme, available at http://www.htdp.org/ or http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/ 14:56:07 Alright, that's better. 14:57:42 I currently have the "Universal Repository of Information About Lisp" on my workstation, but I'm not done reading it yet. Who's next on the distribution list? 14:57:58 if I have two generic methods and each one could be implemented using the other (using a possibly inefficent default implementation) is there an easy way to automatically detect when one default implementation is calling the other (which would result in an infinite loop) 14:58:33 jix: The default implementation could bind a special variable 14:58:49 pjb: I also think it's pretty evil to suggest that someone who doesn't read cliki.net before visiting here is trolling 14:58:54 why is it wrong for default implementations to do that? 14:58:58 tcr1: that should not go without saying that binding a special variable can be suprisingly costly. 14:59:07 jix: what I do is provide default implementations in mixins. 14:59:27 tcr1: but then I lose tail call optimization 14:59:28 H4ns: hmm, normally if something "goes without saying" then it is not something subtle or surprising 14:59:32 H4ns: well only the default one has to do it, it's already the slow path. Checking for boundness might be costly though, too 14:59:34 jix: then if you really insist on compile-time type-checking you play games with the mop 15:00:01 Fare: I'm completly happy with it failing at runtime but I want it to actually fail and not end up in an infinte loop 15:00:10 jix: Then make default-A not call default-B but default-B' which hence knows it was called by default-A 15:00:20 Xach: ah, ok. thanks! 15:00:53 jix: I think you'll run out of stack, but that's probably not a desired result. 15:00:59 like, have methods on validate-superclass 15:02:01 ThomasH: I think they both would tail call into the other, but yeah I'm aiming for a meaningful error message 15:02:09 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:02:14 on the lisp machine, when you blew the stack, it would enter a handler that gave you the opportunity to grow the stack 15:02:55 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:03:03 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 15:04:07 tcr1: but I want to have subclasses which override just one and subclasses which override just the other so both really have to call the other 15:04:33 jix: paste some code 15:04:46 jix: ^^^ 15:04:52 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 15:04:58 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 15:05:04 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:05:17 -!- Skola [~Skola@89.184.179.185] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:06:00 jix: and actually, binding a special variably is suprisingly (to me) cheap on sbcl, so please don't worry too much about that 15:06:22 I'll try to come up with a minimal example and will paste that 15:06:44 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-135.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:34 H4ns: but I think (yeah I should test that) I depend on tail call optimization and binding a special variable around a call stops sbcl from doing that 15:08:10 jix: depending on tco does not seem like a great idea in the first place :) 15:08:11 jix: you only have to bind once. 15:09:18 jix: I have the hunch that you're making this more difficult than necessary. 15:09:24 I'll work this stuff out a bit more first... I just thought there might be some simple built in solution for this 15:09:50 Harag [~phil@dsl-244-50-247.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:17:00 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@74.13.218.50] has left #lisp 15:18:12 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:26 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:21:49 smanek [~smanek@173-228-44-49.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:47 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:47 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:48 ASau [~user@93-80-192-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:28:37 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 15:28:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:28:56 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:29:11 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:30:12 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:31:53 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:46 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ngvdkqtrxvpvsywk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:35:56 add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-245-234.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:37:48 -!- xyxu [~Adium@180.157.5.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:38:50 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:39:19 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has joined #lisp 15:39:56 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-147-210.singnet.com.sg] has left #lisp 15:42:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:44:37 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 15:45:25 for info, reporting back on my experience with Linj, I have done some extra tests and it works exactly as expected. It's a very useful lib 15:47:03 am0c [~am0c@59.5.107.158] has joined #lisp 15:47:15 francogrex: do you have a blog post about it? i think the license is sane now. i don't have any direct use for it atm, i think, but it could be interesting still. 15:47:56 *madnificent* would like something similar for javascript. doesn't always get along with parenscript. 15:47:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 -!- cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:16 cpc26 [~Adium@50-52-233-203.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 -!- cpc26 [~Adium@50-52-233-203.drr01.drhm.nc.frontiernet.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:49:17 cpc26 [~Adium@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:20 madnificent: not yet, I will try to post some and will let you know here 15:52:10 madnificent: for JS there are several "newish" projects on git 15:53:08 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:55:39 francogrex: ah, that's cool 15:55:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:56:25 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:43 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:05 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:00:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:00:51 now the other wondering, how could a java class be called in lisp? 16:01:22 francogrex: how do you call a class in Java? 16:01:35 -!- fooc [~foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:01:40 francogrex: Look at ABCL? I think your answer is there. 16:01:50 francogrex: in SEXML i translate between lisp names and DTD schemes by virtue of an automatically built mapping. i kind-of like that. 16:02:23 as with namespaces and the likes, i guess you'll want something like the import statements from java in a similar way to using in-package and use-package. 16:02:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:03:47 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:05:43 pjb: java ... etc 16:06:22 ThomasH: ok but that's implementation specific 16:06:36 fooc [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 pjb are you suggesting piping ? 16:07:42 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 16:08:15 francogrex: no, I'm just wondering what it would mean to call a class. I know how to call a function. Possibly, I may call a function to send a message to an object, but "calling a class"? 16:08:29 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.20.228.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:08:33 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )] 16:08:42 yes calling a functin/method I meant 16:09:00 Interned symbols don't get garbage collected, do they? Are they a "leak" in some sense? If so, what discussions have their been about solving the "issue"? 16:09:03 francogrex: Depends on what you want to know, but if abcl or clforjava is not satisfactorily, then indeed having two processes with a pipe or socket can be a good solution. 16:09:20 kilon [~kilon@188.4.9.139.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:09:31 francogrex: actually, even if you're writing your program in a single language, splitting it in multiple processes communicating thru sockets may be a good idea, eg. security-wise. cf postfix. 16:09:42 I prefer something portable so I will look at "clforjava" 16:10:59 Joreji [~thomas@66-196.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:06 (I recall reading a discussion about symbols and garbage collection somewhere, but I don't remember what the conclusions were or even what the exact nature of the discussion was.) 16:11:08 pjb: I know how to use pipes with run-programs etc... do you have example for the use of sockets t for communication between, lisp and other apps? 16:11:50 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 16:12:53 francogrex: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/socket.html#socket-ex-client 16:13:03 anyway, I liked LinJ that's the bottom line... and if it's feasible with java then it's feasible with c as well 16:13:58 francogrex: sure. I started doing something for C too, called Linc. 16:14:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/25134 But I haven't worked on it since I hadn't to write a C program since then :-) 16:14:46 francogrex: i'd assume i'd have to call the static method name (like a generic function) with the class object as the first argument, instead of an instance of that class. 16:15:23 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:24 pjb: nice. I looked at some recent project, there is what is called c-amplify that some poeple are raving about... it's not that impressive, with all due respect to the author 16:15:33 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 Perhaps I should publish more unfinished projects 16:16:12 madnificent: I think 16:16:30 tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #lisp 16:16:36 pjb: of course you should 16:17:25 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:31 pjb: why not, many do that, with a todo list. that's why there are several versions of a project, updates etc 16:17:46 so will I see Linc on git tonight? 16:18:23 Not tonight, I'm busy for the next couple of months. So perhaps during summer? 16:19:13 that would be cool 16:19:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:26 Well, it's already in git, I could just push it on a public repo. 16:20:42 Perhaps I'll do it this week. 16:20:48 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 16:21:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:06 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-219-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:14 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:13 that's where I see all the projects: https://github.com/languages/Common%20Lisp 16:23:37 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:24:01 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 16:24:06 holycow_ [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 16:24:27 ok, later. gtg. 16:24:31 hum. SBCL is only about twice slower than CCL at compiling that 900kloc application (440s vs 210s on a W3690 @ 3.47GHz) 16:24:44 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:25:21 Fare: don't you work at the company that switched from sbcl to ccl because sbcl compilation speeds were slowing everybody down? :) 16:26:01 I think the reason we switched was because empire-building manager wanted to leave his mark. 16:26:17 hah! 16:26:32 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 Fare: Is he descended from wolves? 16:27:30 ccl had better backtraces, too, iirc 16:27:50 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:25 ccl had better this, sbcl had better that. It was a flush. We went the way of expensive change to make empire-builder feel powerful. 16:28:41 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:28:59 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 Fare: right. we could also have invested in xcvb and precise dependency determination to the same result. 16:30:17 that, and kept making sbcl better, which we need for $otherproject, anyway. Instead we doubled our maintenance cost structure. 16:32:42 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has joined #lisp 16:33:17 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:40:49 -!- theos is now known as Guest44825 16:40:49 -!- Guest44825 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:41:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:43:25 iLogical [~iLogical@177.96.86.237] has joined #lisp 16:43:59 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:44:30 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:02 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:47:58 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 16:48:24 ASau` [~user@95-28-124-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:48:27 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:49:24 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:50:08 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:50:27 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 16:51:38 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:52:37 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-192-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53:10 I have a 32bit debian squeeze system that's showing an invalid exit status from packages.impure.lisp in the test suite on 1.0.57 16:53:16 test failed, expected 104 return code, got 1 16:55:54 Fare: why was it expensive to change the CL implementation? 16:55:58 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.233] has joined #lisp 16:56:20 Fade: and isn't the project better now? Can't it now run on any (or most) implementation? 16:56:39 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:57:52 -!- arcane [~Mael@tui75-h01-31-33-44-141.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:00:53 pjb: apart from hacking lots of small details and having to pay to maintain two compilers rather than one? 17:01:18 pjb: no, we never made it truly portable. 17:02:15 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:04:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:59 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:13 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:10:17 Fare: you mentioned how the compilation speed is now roughly double; was it much worse when ccl was being considered? 17:10:47 about triple, I think 17:11:08 it has been varying between double and quadruple, IIRC 17:11:24 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:30 conversely, execution speed is also double to quadruple with SBCL 17:14:46 -!- joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:46 Soliciting opinions... Does StumpWM use a sane method of launching processes? This seems like an odd way to have to do this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129562 17:19:27 Fare: perhaps it has been a lost opportunity. Now it's possible the effect is less in CL than in C, but I read this week end an article saying how porting a C program to a new system usually improved its quality. 17:20:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:20:24 these days, there are a few warnings we get from CCL that we don't from SBCL -- and there have always been warnings we get from SBCL and not CCL. 17:21:25 ChibaPet, looks like it's not for launching processes, but for chaining into the next WM. 17:21:32 I'd expect also an improvement of quality if you add the modularity needed to make it run on different systems. Ie, using a portability library with a well defined API, vs. having implementation specific calls all over the program. 17:21:54 Fare, I was assuming it was forking somewhere before that, but perhaps I was missing context. 17:22:04 pjb: hahahahahahaha 17:22:37 But then, perhaps the effect is totally submerged by the difference due to the proprietary nature of the development? 17:22:42 if you don't write portable stuff, you're just making trouble for yourself :p 17:23:41 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:24:09 did someone just drop a box of software development fortune cookies here? 17:24:30 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:27:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:07 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-147-210.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:29:29 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:30:58 rme [~rme@50.43.156.250] has joined #lisp 17:31:31 Meh. Portable is one thing, already ported is quite another. 17:32:17 ebobby [~fms@38.111.144.18] has joined #lisp 17:32:27 tali713` [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:38 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-pjfxdoeygfmbulkn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:53 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:22 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 17:36:46 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 17:36:55 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:20 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:37:46 arcane [~Mael@60.22.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:41:30 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@host110-2.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:47:36 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 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[~user@host183-34-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:07 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:48:36 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:20 joast [~rick@98.145.85.206] has joined #lisp 18:50:26 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 -!- yhk32 [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:48 yhk32 [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:53 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:34 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:57:35 -!- yhk32 [~user@114.205.86.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:49 yhk32 [~user@114.205.86.94] has joined #lisp 19:02:23 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:05:23 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@pc1.sakuravod-unet.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06:44 So there's no way in github.com to get a list of all the projects using Common Lisp. 19:06:48 it seems. 19:06:59 no api? 19:07:00 I thin there is 19:07:03 *think 19:07:07 naryl: how? 19:07:18 You can get popular projects, but no projects using CL. 19:07:23 Common Lisp lists other lisps as well 19:08:32 With gitorious.org it's trivial. 19:08:32 https://github.com/languages/Common%20Lisp/created is the link, if you don't have it. but it ends in page 10 19:08:58 It's "Recently created". I want ALL the projects using CL! 19:09:15 pjb: that's what the remark "but it ends in page 10" is for 19:09:21 github is the Apple's of repos. 19:10:42 pjb: "language:lisp" in the search field. 19:15:54 I tried, no success. 19:16:53 pjb: It gives me a list of CL projects 4315 pages long. 19:17:53 er... files 19:19:04 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:12 yes, files. and 0 repositories. 19:26:58 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has joined #lisp 19:28:09 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.183.116] has joined #lisp 19:29:17 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34:34 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:35:20 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:54 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:41:07 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-134.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:42:06 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 19:42:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:43:31 MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-116-4.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:02 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has left #lisp 19:44:05 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host-92-2-116-4.as43234.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:34 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-32.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:46:58 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-132-134.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:49:47 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:36 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:54:41 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:56:33 ski [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:01:15 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:01:33 ngz [~user@219.13.97.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 so i guess (trace list) is a no-no? 20:12:25 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.183.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:12:46 -!- Saidin [~sfrazier@66.96.251.117] has left #lisp 20:13:17 i'm guessing list is used to form the output, and so trace gets info an infinite recursion? 20:13:31 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl20-210-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:13:32 although i haven't had a crash yet... 20:14:20 Using TRACE against any package provided by the implementation is possible bad news. 20:14:34 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 20:14:35 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 20:16:20 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m37-2-245-234.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:18:50 i see 20:20:44 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:42 is there a converse to in-package ? 20:21:46 leave-package? 20:21:52 to get back to the global scope? 20:22:06 ... There IS no global scope. 20:22:29 well, whatever scope there was when you invoked the REPL 20:22:30 You just in-package to some other package. 20:22:58 e.g. (in-package :cl-user) 20:23:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:23 well, either i'm completely confused, or my sbcl/slime is hosed 20:23:54 after (make-package :bob) and then (in-package bbo), evaluating (defun foo () "this is bobs foo") gives an error 20:24:03 or perhaps both.. 20:24:16 (cl:use-package :cl) 20:24:17 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-232-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:20 ; Evaluation aborted on #. 20:24:53 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-246-23.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:25:04 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:25:11 or (cl:defun ...) 20:25:49 why didn't i get a "undefined function defun"? 20:26:02 is defun a macro? 20:26:14 yates: the arguments are evaluated first (implementation dependent). 20:26:15 rme_ [~rme@50.43.159.137] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 yates: your bob package isn't using cl 20:26:35 -!- rme [rme@E182D1C1.F26E1912.699BA7A6.IP] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:26:36 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 20:27:01 what's the difference between use-package and in-package? 20:27:08 -!- rme_ [~rme@50.43.159.137] has left #lisp 20:27:14 In general, unless you're being clever, you want defpackage rather than make-package. 20:27:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:47 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.156.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:28:02 i'm just following http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CIABEBYwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flownet.com%2Fgat%2Fpackages.pdf&ei=OqW6T9KKEISu8QTA9PmzCg&usg=AFQjCNHkJB-V4hl_I1hBXNVIOLik7I_jLA 20:28:05 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 20:28:15 www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 20:28:59 so this tutorial doesn't actually run?!? 20:29:09 -!- prip [~foo@host95-133-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:25 looks like it. 20:29:38 that's rich. 20:29:41 sloppy. 20:29:57 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 just what a beginner needs... 20:30:08 how to confuse the confused. 20:30:13 it's not a particularly good tutorial either. I'm be wary of any tutorial written by someone who seems to despise the tutorial's topic. 20:30:14 It says it's cut-and-pasted from MCL. Perhaps MCL was special in that regard 20:30:36 -!- saage [~quassel@unaffiliated/saage] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:31:02 this language is being a real BITCH to learn because of this crap 20:31:22 if only somebody would just read Practical Common Lisp 20:31:30 *stassats* guesses he's still ignored 20:32:59 pcl is too long-winded. other things are too terse. yet others are just wrong. 20:33:28 yates: bullshit 20:33:29 I smell a kickban here, it's in the air 20:33:35 you just don't want to learn, do you? 20:34:35 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:26 prxq: just read the last few minutes for a case-in-point. so it's certainly not all bullshit, at least. 20:36:10 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:37:13 yates: you should probably try #clnoobs 20:37:31 and just ask what you want to know 20:37:44 yates: i don't see what's your problem. You could just read pcl, or grahams acl, or even that book by touretzky, and could be happy all around. 20:37:45 dlowe: is that a channel were noobs help noobs? 20:38:06 where people who want to help noobs help noobs 20:38:20 that sounds better 20:38:31 which is disjoint from the people who want to discuss common lisp 20:38:47 well, i want to help reasonable noobs 20:39:10 not for you then :) 20:39:51 dlowe: before you became proficient at lisp, what were YOU? 20:40:07 yates: awesome. Same as now. 20:40:20 dlowe: anyone who derides someone for being a noob is a prima donna 20:40:37 i read a number of introductory and not so books before asking questions in #lisp 20:40:42 yates: you think I'm joking, but I'm not. 20:40:58 surprisingly, the books are good at teaching you 20:41:02 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 20:41:07 yates: if you're that touchy, though, I bet you're angry a lot 20:41:20 and in that case, better learn c++ 20:41:24 so what if i am? 20:41:26 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:58 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:42:16 prip [~foo@host82-133-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 yates: that's bad for your health. 20:42:25 you got me there. 20:43:35 is there a cl equivalent to k&r's "The C Programming Language"? 20:43:57 pcl the closest? 20:44:01 yes. 20:44:03 Probably PCL. 20:44:05 common lisp the language, 2nd ed 20:44:25 Like the K&R, it's slightly off the ANSI standard :) 20:44:29 if you're going for "outdated" 20:44:32 dlowe: k&r's book is not exactly a reference for implementors unlike CLtL. 20:44:38 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:52 i'm a user, not an implementor 20:45:04 yates: So PCL is the closest. 20:45:07 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:27 I disagree with naryl entirely. 20:45:36 yates: what's the problem with PCL? 20:45:50 dlowe: okay.png 20:46:19 dlowe: CLtL2 is also somewhat longer than K&R, which is what I've come to understand most people are looking for when they compare references to K&R. 20:46:26 prxq: i think he mentioned something about it being long winded and all that which i don't understand where he gets that in the first place 20:46:31 dlowe: the version by Steele? 20:46:42 yates: yes 20:47:27 DO NOT BUY THE ANSI CL STANDARD 20:47:32 thought i might throw that out there 20:47:48 do not buy any ANSI standard, AFAICT. 20:48:06 prxq: and looking at where his questions were coming from, PCL does a good job to introduce packages in a way that he would not have found himself with the errors he was getting in the first place 20:48:08 prxq: i shouldn't dis it - but it seems to me to be just a bit too long-winded for my taste. 20:48:39 even if the ANSI standard were good, it wouldn't beat HYPERlinks 20:48:44 Buy the book and don't read it in a browser that's 1000 characters wide 20:48:55 Quadrescence: you mean pcl? 20:48:58 yes 20:49:02 an idea. 20:49:15 yates: have you tried ansi cl by graham? 20:49:32 utxeeeeeeee [~hutch@bl16-210-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:49:36 it's also long, but maybe resonates better with you (did so with me) 20:49:42 hi ppl 20:49:53 yates: in any case, you will need more patiece. 20:49:55 no. all i've tried is a few chapters from pcl, a few from the ancient (but good?) LISP (3rd ed) by Winston and Horn 20:50:13 just beginning Let over Lambda, but i felt i needed to back up first. 20:50:22 I had very bad luck with Winston and Horn. 20:50:27 CLtL did it for me 20:50:34 I'm having a hard time trying to understand eval-when operator, anybody could help me ? 20:50:34 (this was pre-PCL) 20:50:44 yates: better have patience with PCL. It's good - trust us. 20:50:46 utxeeeeeeee: it's very hard to understand 20:50:47 yates: see com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:pushp and popp 20:50:50 dlowe: thanks for the cite, then. 20:51:04 dlowe: I know 20:51:21 but I really need to understand it 20:51:27 utxeeeeeeee: just always use it with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ..) and be done with it 20:51:43 stassats: look here 20:51:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 which means "always load the thing" 20:51:54 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10674650/eval-when-uses 20:51:56 s/load/evaluate/ 20:52:19 yates: if you changed the readtable you may have to use: (|CL|:|IN-PACKAGE| :|CL-USER|), but it's indeed possible to hose one's implementation. 20:52:28 utxeeeeeeee: so, what am i supposed to see there? 20:52:29 prxq: patience yeah yeah - how long is that going to take? :) (http://www.digitalsignallabs.com/BootToTheHead.mp3) 20:52:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:42 lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:52:52 stassats: my last question 20:53:12 yates: what do you want to use lisp for? 20:53:13 oh, i didn't recognize you there, too few Es 20:53:25 lol 20:53:29 :D 20:54:03 prxq: nothing in particular, everything in general? to learn the concepts? 20:54:14 utxeeeeeeee: it's not guaranteed that your code will be compiled, loaded and then executed. You'll likely get strange errors that depend on how your code was entered in the running program if you don't specify all phases. 20:54:17 my first real goal is to write a simply phone book 20:54:20 simple 20:54:22 utxeeeeeeee: well, if you want to understand it slightly more, (eval-when (:compile-toplevel)) is for when you do COMPILE-FILE, :execute is for when you LOAD a .lisp file, and :load-toplevel is for when you load .fasl file 20:54:39 *ski* . o O ( "simple phony book" ) 20:54:39 using clsql, commonqt, etc. 20:55:29 utxeeeeeeee: that's when it's encountered at the top-level, it becomes more complicated when it's not 20:56:04 reasonable first goal? 20:56:07 yates: You need to work further through PCL. 20:56:29 stassats: but I have read that :execute just comes into play if the definition it isn't a top level form 20:56:29 ThomasH: i'm tending to agree. 20:56:43 I read it here http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html 20:56:54 yates: PCL, PCL, PCL. Patience. It only takes about ten years. 20:57:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.153.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:20 yates: When you have done that, have become comfortable with emacs+slime, and have Quicklisp installed, then you will be ready to create your phonebook. 20:57:31 and have a bears like gandalf 20:57:33 i have the others done 20:57:37 utxeeeeeeee: well yes, i only told you about top-level 20:57:38 s/bears/beard/ 20:57:52 yates: Ok, then you're in good shape. 20:57:54 got my hyperspec hot keys defined. 20:57:58 pkhuong: can you give me an example where :execute situation will be used then ? 20:58:16 utxeeeeeeee: did you read what stassats wrote? 20:58:28 i don't think it ever could be used alone 20:58:31 huangjs [~huangjs@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 20:58:37 stassats: but the :execute situation will come into play if we have a top-level definition ? 20:58:37 unless you seriously want to piss off people 20:58:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:58:53 i mean, it could be used, but you wouldn't 20:59:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:48 utxeeeeeeee: yes, it will come into play when you just LOAD the source file 20:59:52 stassats: used alone, that is. 21:00:23 stassats: with the example given at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10674650/eval-when-uses 21:00:44 why do I need to refer the :execute situation ? 21:00:52 16:59 < stassats> utxeeeeeeee: yes, it will come into play when you just LOAD the source file 21:00:59 when I load from source file 21:01:02 hummm 21:01:04 sorry 21:01:09 so that you can LOAD .lisp, without compiling it first 21:01:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:54 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 but when I load a .lisp file the compiler will not evaluate all the definitons ? 21:03:02 so that when I'm defining the macro the compiler/interpreter already know the function, right ? 21:03:04 it will evaluate all the definitions, but because you want BAR function to be evaluated when you COMPILE-FILE it, so you need to put EVAL-WHEN there, and if you put it without :execute, it won't be evaluated 21:03:04 utxeeeeeeee: if the eval-when form specifies that its contents should not be evaluated at load-time, it won't. 21:03:34 won't be evaluated during LOAD of .lisp, that is 21:04:06 if you just put (defun bar ...) it's like (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute)) 21:04:27 but you need it at compile-time, so you add :compile-toplevel to it 21:04:52 -!- lony [~lony@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 21:05:04 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:38 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-147-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 so a .lisp file without the :execute situation in the definiton of bar will not evalute it, right ? 21:06:34 when I load the file from the source code 21:06:36 when directly LOADed, right 21:07:05 humm, I think I begin to understand 21:07:05 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:26 can you give another example where the eval when will be useful ? 21:07:47 or some links I can read 21:08:14 well, making functions available to macros is by far the most common usage of eval-when 21:08:39 frankly, i don't know off-hand what else you would use it for when writing user code 21:09:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:09:33 sometimes you may want it when writing your own define-foos 21:09:59 but typically that's because your define-foo is getting pretty fancy 21:10:45 eg passing information between macros or compiler-macros at compile time, in which case you want :compile-toplevel 21:12:38 canyou give some example with code 21:12:57 nikodemus: any link where this situation is used ? 21:13:21 I really need to understand eval-ewhen and all of its applications :S 21:13:38 no you don't 21:13:52 or if you do, you can get that from clhs 21:13:55 yes I do 21:13:58 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.9.139.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:59 for what? 21:14:06 academic purposes :s 21:14:15 read clhs, then 21:14:15 right. his homework. 21:14:29 no 21:14:32 and do some experiments to see how it behaves 21:14:42 Someone else's homework then. 21:14:52 lol 21:14:58 I need to understand it 21:15:15 eval-when is one of those things that's pretty easy to figure out when you actually need it, but somewhat impenetrable before 21:15:19 what's your use-case? 21:15:29 try macroexpanding DEFUN and understanding why it does what it does 21:15:30 clhs ? 21:15:30 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ?. 21:15:32 if you understand eval-when too good, you will get a temptation to abuse it 21:15:36 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 21:15:38 clhs eval-when 21:15:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 21:16:02 "ignorance is bliss!" 21:16:05 specbot: I have already read that link 21:16:16 but it is somewaht difficult to understand 21:16:38 clhs 3.2.3 21:16:38 File Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bc.htm 21:16:44 utxeeeeeeee: read also this 21:16:49 clhs 3.2.3.1 21:16:49 Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm 21:16:50 and this 21:16:54 I just want some decent links and examples 21:17:07 the latter link even has a table 21:17:23 ok people 21:17:25 thks a lot 21:17:28 if you've already read all that, just play with it and experiment 21:17:51 any other link or reference please put it here 21:17:53 :D 21:18:02 can I write a method that dispatches on a class not on an object? (as in (some-method 'foo) or (some-method (find-class 'foo)) instead of (some-method some-object-of-foo)) 21:18:10 clhs is the best you're gonna get 21:18:18 just read it twice if it's not enough 21:18:47 jix: yes, you can, classes are objects too 21:19:02 stassats: but they are not an instance of themselves 21:19:02 but the ordinary classes you define are of STANDARD-CLASS class 21:19:17 wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:38 -!- mrbrown [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:42 I basically want something like eql specializers but with inheritance 21:20:24 jix: what are you trying to do? 21:20:41 I'm not sure why you want EQL specializers with inheritance. 21:20:58 jix: you can have different metaclasses 21:21:08 sykopomp: he doesn't 21:21:35 *sykopomp* wonders why he even needs class metaobjects. 21:21:55 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:22:10 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:22:13 jix: you can also just use instances 21:22:35 or even class prototypes, if you're feeling MOPy 21:22:40 sykopomp: oh I'm just playing around with stuff trying to figure things out so I don't really need that 21:22:44 jix: mop:class-prototype can be useful here. 21:23:03 (defmethod foo ((x (eql (find-class 'quux)))) ...) 21:23:03 (defmethod foo ((x (eql (find-class 'quux)))) ...) 21:23:08 damn echo 21:23:45 (defun bar (x) (foo (class-of bar))) 21:23:58 nikodemus: no inheritance there 21:24:24 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:25 true, but i couldn't really make sense of his question 21:26:34 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:55 (the "i'm dense" defence, as it is popularly known) 21:26:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:01 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:05 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 21:28:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:41 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 21:29:13 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:21 pkhuong: so I could just have wrapper function that uses find-class + class-prototype and passes that to the real method and have exactly what I want, with filtered functions I could even get this without a wrapper function (and without the prototype being an argument) 21:32:06 -!- dekuked [4593a462@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.147.164.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:40 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-81-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:33:46 jix: looks like it. But those are fairly big guns you're bringing in your program. 21:35:47 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has left #lisp 21:35:49 pkhuong: I will probably just use eql on symbols since that'll work for my use case (and is way simpler) but curiosity got me here 21:35:58 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.63] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 -!- impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:58 timack [~timack@hlfx57-1-129.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:39:04 -!- naiv [~quassel@AReims-551-1-149-152.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39:34 -!- hazon [~user@host183-34-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 21:40:54 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:41:04 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442267.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 dubdromic [~corin@ip65-46-143-18.z143-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:18 -!- dubdromic [~corin@ip65-46-143-18.z143-46-65.customer.algx.net] has left #lisp 21:47:03 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129223098.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 21:55:35 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:04 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@186.192.87.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:38 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:01:14 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:02 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:32 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:04:14 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:04:30 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:05:04 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has joined #lisp 22:07:58 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:49 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:14:45 -!- wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:15:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:15:11 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009022.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:15:14 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:15:45 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-167-46.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:35 if the body of alexandria:doplist, are you allowed to modify values of the plist? 22:19:06 -!- arnsa [~arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:07 if it's anything like the standard iteration utilities, you're only allowed to modify the current element 22:19:26 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:20:45 although i don't see how that's possible wit doplist 22:22:52 I'm using doplist to iterate over a special *plist*, and want to change some elements as I move over them: (setf (getf *plist* key) val) 22:23:17 -!- ngz [~user@219.13.97.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:24:00 I'm guessing that as long as the cdr-chain of the list isn't warped, it should be fine (I'd just be swapping out cars) 22:24:51 it'll be faster if you were to use LOOP and modified the list directly 22:25:34 I still have to learn LOOP properly ;) 22:27:29 -!- timack [~timack@hlfx57-1-129.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:27:33 robot-beethoven: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129572 22:27:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:19 ok time to sleep. later all. 22:28:24 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:32:15 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.224.149] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:41:17 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:34 paul0 [~paul0@189.115.62.122] has joined #lisp 22:43:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:45:07 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:45:09 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:51:18 jack_rabbit [~Kyle@c-24-13-250-216.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:10 If I were to want to implement lisp as a server-side language for a web server, is there a better way than using eval to read in the forms on the page? 22:52:53 Yes, every other way. Curiously, how do you see eval even making it into the picture? 22:53:05 you normally get back strings, and read them correctly, /not/ by using eval. 22:53:28 I'm new to this. As I understand, eval takes in a string and evaluates it as a form. 22:53:45 what are you really trying to do? 22:53:46 String or sexp 22:54:02 But why would you need to evaluate external data as code? 22:54:31 I would have a .html or somesuch file, which my program would read. This file would contain both html and lisp , the lisp denoted by something like sshirokov: /why/ would you evaluate external data as code? 22:54:48 sshirokov: my god, i read how. sorry 22:54:55 <3 :3 22:55:10 The lisp reader would read those forms and evaluate them to pull in SQL data, dynamic pages, whatever. 22:55:22 that's not how it's usually done 22:55:33 jack_rabbit: there are templating libraries. but actually. writing html as s-expressions is nicer. there are many libraries for it. i use sexml (as i built it and it's awesome) many others have something custom or use cl-who. 22:55:54 usually you have lisp code which generates html 22:55:55 jack_rabbit: it is indeed custom in other languages, but s-expressions are sexier than xml, or so it seems :) 22:56:12 I'd agree. However, I'm looking for something which can be integrated with existing html. 22:56:19 Also most web applications tend to separate the concerns of most logic and rendering 22:56:38 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:56:52 I need to be able to take something produced by a designer and make it dynamic through a language, usually ASP or PHP, but in this case i'd like to use LISP. 22:56:58 jack_rabbit: Consider taking the existing HTML and porting it to a less s-exp-based but still lisp-impemented templating language 22:57:09 minion: html-template? 22:57:10 html-template: HTML-TEMPLATE is an HTML template library to use templates much like Perl's HTML::Template. http://www.cliki.net/html-template 22:57:37 ^ That seems like a good fit 22:57:38 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:42 sshirokov: i've heard it before, i think it sucks to be honest. look at it: with HTML, you can barely make abstractions. things like enyojs try to abstract from html, as it simply sucks. you want to combine stuff. so you can use templating libraries (search for them, they exist), but you would most likely be a lot better off with s-expressions. it is /way/ simpler to combine stuff with s-expressions as it can basically 22:57:42 (and they needn't be slower either). 22:58:27 The problem still remains to leave the pages in a readable format, that is, readable to non-lispers, i.e. HTML. 22:59:21 Those libraries as a manner of using LISP to write the dynamic parts of the pages, however, seems like it should work nicely. 22:59:30 it's Lisp, not LISP 22:59:34 Sorry. 22:59:36 Lisp. 22:59:42 that's better 22:59:48 Shouldn't it be LisP? 22:59:55 List Processing? 22:59:59 no. 23:00:04 jack_rabbit: i have yet to meet the first person that doesn't understand s-expressions, but does understand html. lisp's syntax is simply simpler. 23:00:19 Lisp is not about list processing for a long time now 23:00:33 Just a thought. 23:00:55 stassats: you lie, to some extent ;) point probably comes across though. 23:01:02 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:24 madnificent: True, however, we are talking about designers who use tools like dreamweaver, which are fairly tied to HTML. 23:01:25 i don't lie 23:01:28 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:02:50 stassats: we still process lists. for instance, when writing macros... 23:03:29 madnificent: aren't all forms still fundamentally cons cells? 23:04:23 madnificent: i also process vectors, arrays, hashtables, strings, characters, objects, numbers 23:04:42 stassats: ...also. 23:04:53 more than lists, in fact 23:05:12 they don't call python dict processing language, do they? 23:05:16 jack_rabbit: tbh, designers i've worked with so far don't care about the code. they don't want to insert stuff in the html (they did want clean html code with classes). they want to edit the CSS portion. for the tools themselves, i think it's possible to write a mapping from html to the s-expressions (and the functions that define the combinations of them). but i haven't done that yet, and i don't know if i will. for m 23:05:16 html doesn't make sense. 23:05:41 stassats: what jack_rabbit said, was my point. but yes, we have much much much more (and it's good to stress that). 23:06:11 Lisp as it is nowdays, is not an abbreviation 23:06:19 it means just that, Lisp 23:06:25 jack_rabbit: i doubt the common lisp standard actually requires it to be so. but if you receive them in a macro, they do behave like it :) 23:07:22 This type of mapping would require a translation between the files hosted and the files worked on, though, correct? 23:08:24 yeah, but it's not that complex. the complex part is mapping from the html to the functions which generated it 23:08:55 ie: (defun standard-page (title body) (<:html (<:head (<:title title)) (<:body body))) 23:09:32 Which is why i'd rather leave the HTML to it's own devices and work on evaluating the portions of the pages that require Lisp. 23:09:49 (standard-page "My Title" (list (<:h1 "my title") (<:p :class "foobar" "my content"))) generates some stuff, you want to map back... and that's not trivial in cases where there's conditional output. 23:10:22 jack_rabbit: in practice, it hasn't bitten me, and it's spared me time. you pick what you want, obviously. but i don't want to spend the extra work. 23:11:28 It's not a matter of the clean-ness of the code. I'd prefer to write all my pages in pure Lisp. However, the necessity for the people I work with to use the tools which require HTML, and the subsequent requirement for an HTML-Lisp translator seems to me like more work than a simple program which finds the lisp forms in the page and evaluates them. 23:11:53 why not write it in php or asp.net then? 23:12:40 stassats: Because Lisp seems like a language much more suited to this. 23:13:01 From what you're describing it seems like PHP is a language most suited to your task.. 23:13:13 Unless you want to do the extra engineering 23:13:27 I am responsible for ONLY the extra engineering. 23:13:33 jack_rabbit: do you have people you work with that can't cope with lisp? have you asked? have you tried? really, try it first. 23:14:06 jack_rabbit: a good designer doesn't care about the html he needs to style (if you write it nicely). they want the generated pages available (which is trivial). 23:14:30 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:41 Perhaps an easier solution would be HTML wrapped in Lisp, rather than Lisp wrapped in HTML. I understand your position, and tend to agree with it. HTML is a must, though, unfortunately. 23:17:57 jack_rabbit: the generated html is a must, not the templates 23:18:27 I'm thinking now about the errors that would come out of misplaced colons, quotations, etc. Not errors that would be visible in the generated HTML, if any got generated. 23:18:34 actually, i literally never have had a designer ask me for the templates. the generated html, always. the templates, never. then again, i haven't worked with sub-par designers yet. 23:18:46 i don't see how the designer would be able to successfully munch code around inside HTML, unless you're partying like it's 1995 23:18:50 jack_rabbit: they d o n o t e d i t t h e h t m l 23:18:57 ours do 23:19:24 do they insert flashy gifs and ? 23:19:29 jack_rabbit: think very hard about the correctnes of that. also, it's trivial! they only need to understand :id and :class :) all other stuff is out of their code. 23:20:02 i don't see how you can do anything remotely complicated using templates 23:21:51 *madnificent* shouldn't care about the efficiency of others 23:23:09 So from what I can tell, you are suggesting that they create their pages in dreamweaver, or what have you, then send them to the developers, who translate them to forms, and add in the dynamic functionality, then push them to the server to be evaluated by the Lisp process and handed out by the webserver process. 23:23:22 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:23:34 somebody's still using dreamweaver? shocking 23:23:45 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.132.187.90] has joined #lisp 23:23:48 stassats: believe me, I agree. 23:24:00 jack_rabbit: wait what?! you are not supplying the html either? who is writing the application there? 23:24:26 madnificent: I'm confused by what you are asking. 23:24:43 jack_rabbit: if you receive all html, and you need to do the templating yourself, translation becomes trivial though. as it's a one-way once-only process. 23:24:59 jack_rabbit: you are telling me, that they supply you the whole html site and then you have to cut it up and make it dynamic? 23:25:23 by "they create," I meant the designer portion of the company. 23:25:45 yes, the designers give you the html? you don't write it? they first figure out what they want and then you have to implement it? 23:25:56 madnificent: yes, basically. 23:26:00 as i imagine it, the designer makes a mock up with styles, then you implement it, use the CSS, and bob's your uncle 23:26:10 stassats: you got it. 23:26:24 well, then i don't see why you need templates 23:26:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:26:40 stassats: I'm not sure what you mean by templates. 23:27:01 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-219-147-87.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:27:02 lisp code inside a big phat html 23:27:08 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 23:27:55 lisp code wants to be free, not to be crammed up inside some ungodly sgml descendant! 23:28:24 I have to write ASP, C#, PHP, what have you, code inside these produced mock-ups. I have found that I am much more productive using Lisp than any of those horrid languages (actually, C# isn't that bad) 23:28:44 So as an experiment, I'm looking into incorporating Lisp into a site as the server-side coding language. 23:30:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:58 jack_rabbit: the effort may make sense. but the approach seems to be a bit odd. why do it bad, if you can do it good? 23:30:59 The reason we need to keep the HTML is that customers almost on a daily basis, request trivial modifications to their pages, which, when considering re-translation to HTML or maintaining two versions of the file (one Lisp, one HTML), gets not-so-trivial. 23:32:09 -!- booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:32:35 Customers: just about the worst thing to ever happen to web development (except for dreamweaver) 23:32:54 jack_rabbit: get it in your designers's heads: they must not be the ones writing html. also: changes are trivial to backport. coding these things (like you would otherwise have to backpropagate into the partial templates) will also ensure the site stays consistent. 23:33:16 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has joined #lisp 23:33:28 jack_rabbit: again, i never had issues with changes which needed to be made. but in all cases, the devs first extended the site, then the designers did the CSS makup. 23:33:29 jack_rabbit: what are the designers using to generate the templates? and what "format" are the templates in? I.e., how do they mark where dynamic content is supposed to go? 23:33:29 Who writes the HTML? Developers? 23:34:37 jack_rabbit: letting designers write the HTML is a mismatch. the separation between content (HTML) and design (CSS) was made at that level for a reason. if you let the designers write the HTML you're essentially breaking the model itself. 23:34:55 The designers make no real indication of where dynamic content should go. Most of the time, for things such as search pages, etc, they leave a single entry staticcally placed in the HTML, which the developer then wraps a loop around pulling in SQL data. 23:35:49 Or they leave fields to be dynamically pulled with dummy-values such as [FIRST-NAME] 23:35:54 jack_rabbit: what is the company named and where is it based? i'll add it to my "don't work there, go play consultant" 23:36:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:36:11 right, so they need to be converted into something that a particular templating system, like HTML-TEMPLATE, can use anyway. 23:36:57 DataLinkDroid: it makes much more sense to use s-expressions, it's way easier on the devs. 23:37:13 madnificent: the whole company consists of about 15 people, four of which are developers, I included. Some of the "designers" work more on the css. Some more on the HTML. It's really an issue of semantics. 23:37:35 The only problem is that the HTML designers aren't versed in the server-side scripting languages. 23:37:47 no, it's not semantics, it's a broken model. 23:37:54 a seriously broken one. 23:38:02 madnificent: HTML and CSS are BOTH objects of design. it's all about the best way to make use of skill sets in a corporate environment 23:38:13 DataLinkDroid: it's called separation 23:39:00 madnificent: As much as I'd love to go in and start demanding designers work exclusively on content and .CSS generation, I am in no position to do so. So that's not really even an option. 23:39:04 having to go to coders to change details of the presentation is annoying to everyone, including the coders 23:39:17 DataLinkDroid: YES! 23:39:39 i do *not* understand how you can have HTML devs which don't understand the code. it simply doesn't make sense. 23:39:58 they are virtually redundant, only there to slow everything down. 23:40:01 HTML is authoring not developing 23:40:27 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:31 madnificent: one team works out the HTML, CSS. One team pulls in the data, sets up dynamic pages. Seems non-redundant to me. 23:40:40 -!- utxeeeeeeee [~hutch@bl16-210-148.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: utxeeeeeeee] 23:41:02 jack_rabbit: that's correct. doing it all in code is okay for one man shops 23:41:05 DataLinkDroid: inserting lenghty texts are better done in s-expression form than in html form also. this feels very very broken. 23:41:33 you won't get authors to write sexps, no matter how much we like them ;-) 23:41:43 but go ahead, tell me the name so i don't go wandering around there please :) 23:41:59 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 23:42:03 DataLinkDroid: i have yet to meet the first person to whom i can't explain s-expressions. 23:42:13 not the issue 23:42:26 DataLinkDroid: You seem to understand... 23:42:44 i understand what you're trying to do. i'm saying it's inefficient 23:43:24 madnificent: I'm not arguing that your system not somehow superior. I'm explaining to you the system which exists, and asking a simple question about evaluating Lisp forms embedded in an HTML page. 23:43:30 madnificent: welcome to corporate "inefficiency" :-) but it's actually about using designers to do designing and coders to do coding 23:43:49 i don't care that it exists. i don't want to care about it. i want to know where it is, so i don't end up there. 23:43:59 which web authoring software outputs sexps? answer: none. :) 23:44:22 DataLinkDroid: if you're using dreamweaver, you're probably doing some other things wrong 23:44:27 but enough of it, 23:44:58 i don't care about the inefficiencies if you understand them and are not going to act on them. i have nothing to win here, not even the feeling of having helped. 23:45:27 authors don't want to be coders. they want to author pages. designers don't want to be coders, they want to design pages... 23:45:36 it so happens that coders can do it all... 23:45:40 madnificent: Again, I understand your position. What you have presented to me is a massive restructuring of the workflow in the company I work for. Not exactly some simple thing. 23:45:42 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e1e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:48 but they usually do it badly :) 23:46:57 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-81-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:41 We find there is much more HTML to write than ASP or SQL. We therefore have more "designers." The developers are left with the aftermath. Without the HTML, the design job would be minimal. 23:48:00 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:05 jack_rabbit: wishing you luck with using Lisp on the server side. you might succeed in a smallish company. there are issues with maintainability tho 23:48:37 DataLinkDroid: Thanks. What kind of issues? 23:49:09 the company has to find Lisp coders to maintain the system after you leave 23:49:17 or redo it 23:49:27 True. They are a rare breed it seems. 23:49:56 that's why i like the idea of consulting 23:50:05 where the client actually doesn't care what you use 23:50:07 :) 23:50:18 Sounds like a better line of work. 23:50:35 irregular and unpredictable though 23:50:57 Well as long as I can feed myself... 23:51:31 sure. in my case i also have a family to feed :) but still considering my options in any case 23:51:51 Well good luck to you. I'm out. 23:51:56 cya 23:52:10 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-81-44.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:52:24 Heh. My server-side lisp strategy has an explicit component where an apache server can be wedged into the mix and used to send individual URLs to replacement software written in other languages, and another mandate to keep all important state in the database... 23:52:36 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.115.62.122] has quit [Quit: paul0] 23:52:53 Basically, a "you want to rewrite this thing using that-other-python? Fine. Here's how you can do it incrementally." thing. 23:52:53 AlexHe [~AndChat32@60.247.127.3] has joined #lisp 23:53:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.39.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:22 cool. sounds interesting 23:54:15 so they can replace functions piecemeal> 23:54:35 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:10 Yeah, they can replace "endpoints" piecemeal. 23:55:25 right 23:55:29 Essentially reducing the cost/risk of a rewrite project. 23:56:01 sounds like a good strategy to keep in mind 23:56:10 saage [~saage@200.195.179.34] has joined #lisp 23:56:24 By the same token, I'm hoping to have enough stuff in the server that they won't WANT to do a rewrite any time soon. 23:57:18 lol :) 23:58:00 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:58:34 especially when they realise that your one week project will take then a month to do in ASP... 23:58:37 Little things, like a carefully designed condition class hierarchy that's exposed in the wire protocol. 23:59:08 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]