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Interlisp-D for linux crashes immediately 01:21:37 Where did you find it? 01:22:45 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:26:34 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:26:42 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:26:45 codeadept [~codeadept@c-71-205-198-93.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:07 pnathan: from xerox ftp - medley is an emulator for Interlisp-D lispm 01:27:16 -!- codeadept [~codeadept@c-71-205-198-93.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:27:28 dumped me into low-level debugger rather quickly 01:34:31 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:43 leo2007 [~leo@125.33.180.39] has joined #lisp 01:40:01 -!- antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:16 pnq [~nick@AC82600D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:21 totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:34 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:45:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:46:41 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 01:47:00 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129122004.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@125.33.180.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55:52 xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has joined #lisp 02:03:27 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:00 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 02:04:15 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:08:10 -!- tsenart [~tsenart@f052097106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:04 -!- bruno_coelho [~bruno_coe@177.133.122.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:36 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:31 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:47 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432531.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:15:15 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:32 leo2007 [~leo@123.116.117.152] has joined #lisp 02:17:46 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:08 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:18 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:02 jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:11 why am i getting this when trying to quickload commonqt? 02:22:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129531 02:23:01 yates: because you don't have qt development libraries and tools installed 02:23:11 and smoke development libraries 02:23:22 ah. 02:23:36 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 02:23:37 thanks stassats` 02:23:58 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:19 if you're on debian, install smoke-dev-tools and libqt4-dev 02:24:28 no, on openSUSE 11.4 02:24:34 zypper searching now 02:25:00 if suse has no smoke, build one from https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdebindings/smoke 02:25:12 stassats`: ack 02:27:05 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-252.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:41 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:38 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:29:56 jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:12 looks like it's working now... 02:33:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:34:18 i've found a quick way to see the top-level APIs of a package inside slime/emacs is to do something like (ql: 02:34:49 what does it mean if pressing (: reveals no top-level APIS? 02:35:19 surely a package must have some top-level API, no? 02:37:41 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:37:57 what package is that? 02:38:34 qt-tests 02:38:54 it's a package for tests, it has no API 02:39:23 stassats: then how would one use it? 02:39:33 one wouldn't 02:39:44 then why does it exist? 02:39:55 to put tests into it 02:40:25 if i do not, or can not, put tests into it, then of what use is it? 02:40:52 you're a user, you don't need to put tests into it 02:41:15 why is it there? 02:41:29 this is tiresome 02:41:36 you're telling me 02:41:40 do you know what a unit test is? 02:41:58 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 02:42:33 stassats: been doing embedded c, c++, assembly for 30 years. in those contexts, i do. 02:42:47 is it different for cl? 02:42:58 well, qt-tests is where developers of put unit tests 02:43:08 s/of/of commonqt/ 02:43:23 why did you even load qt-tests system? 02:43:45 to see what it provides 02:44:14 so if i were a developer, how would i use qt-tests? 02:44:48 first, you'll get a clue, then you'll use it 02:45:28 stassats: so your responses degenerate into personal attacks. thanks - that speaks volumes. 02:45:39 yates: unit tests don't have "user" api 02:45:46 so there are no public symbols 02:46:00 try qt-tests:: 02:46:00 p_l: ok, so how would such a package be used? 02:46:22 yates: in package-specific way by developer of the library for which the tests are made for 02:46:30 ah. 02:46:36 what does the :: syntax mean? 02:47:03 (oh, by the stassats, you're on ignore) 02:47:20 very cool 02:47:29 yates: :: is access to package, not just the exported symbols 02:47:30 now i can insult him without worrying 02:47:36 ah! 02:47:36 I recommend reading about packages 02:47:41 good idea. 02:47:46 thank you. 02:48:03 (there are few extra conventions involved as well, like customary use of % in symbol names etc.) 02:48:57 perhaps chap. 21 of pcl? 02:49:38 maybe. There was also some short and to-the-point guide about packages 02:49:51 clhs 11.1 02:49:52 Package Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_a.htm 02:50:03 ah. thanks much! 02:50:17 thank stassats ;) 02:50:22 www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf <--- also this 02:50:29 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 02:50:31 p_l: for what? 02:50:34 p_l: which is not ideal 02:50:45 his responses led to a dead-end. 02:50:51 yours bear fruit. 02:50:59 yates: he called to specbot 02:51:05 ah. 02:51:14 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:51:31 p_l: Xach reported that it has many inaccuracies, which will only confuse the reader 02:51:40 i haven't read it myself 02:52:17 frankly i don't want help from anyone who enjoys demeaning folks who come here needing help learning to walk. 02:52:22 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has joined #lisp 02:52:24 stassats: ah. Haven't used it in long time 02:53:11 yates: sometimes people get tired, leading to anger. And while I cannot say for others, different cultural/linguistic backgrounds make for crazy "lost in translation" cases 02:53:59 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82600D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:46 p_l: that's true, and sometimes there is evil lurking in the hearts of people. stassats's response was in a similar vein/attitude earlier here (at least once) and i see a pattern of abuse rather than helpfulness. and my English, and expression, is perfectly good. 02:56:17 perhaps "sound" would be better. 02:56:47 p_l: thanks for your helpfulness, though. 02:57:52 if you want politeness in #lisp, you're gonna have a bad time 02:58:23 pnq [~nick@ACA21212.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:59 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:01 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 03:04:18 jwz-watcher [4730093d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.48.9.61] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.212.110] has joined #lisp 03:07:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.116.117.152] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:55 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-oqkpzjyzxqiemvjd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:49 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 03:15:26 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:48 nefo_ [~nefo@58.34.162.70] has joined #lisp 03:16:21 -!- saschakb` [~skbierm@p4FEA0034.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:22 -!- nefo_ [~nefo@58.34.162.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:14 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 03:30:19 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:30:40 sacho [~sacho@95-42-90-0.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 03:31:22 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:21 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:37:37 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:38:30 leo2007 [~leo@123.112.101.36] has joined #lisp 03:40:30 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432531.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:43:01 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:43:34 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:49:19 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 03:49:32 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:51:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:32 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 03:51:36 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:25 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:55:37 -!- jake__ [~jake@74.213.226.253] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:56:22 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:01:33 p_l: i'm confused by (setq x (gentemp)) 04:01:47 (gentemp) returns a symbol, right? 04:01:53 clhs gentemp 04:01:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gentem.htm 04:03:36 and setq sets the value of x to some... thing, right? 04:04:00 so the _value_ of a symbol can be a reference to another symbol? 04:04:24 variables have values, not symbols 04:04:25 so that (set x 123) is the same as setting the value of the symbol T2 to 123? 04:04:40 (since x is evaluated when using set)? 04:05:10 (presuming gentemp returned symbol T2) 04:05:14 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:05:29 *stassats* suspects he's talking to himself, which is fun in itself 04:05:52 so the _value_ of a symbol can be a reference to another symbol? 04:05:59 p_l: ? 04:06:26 kinda like a pointer in C or a reference in C++? 04:06:31 oh man 04:07:03 *yates* reminds the channel that stassats is on ignore.. 04:07:32 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@12.132.197.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:07:52 hello? is this thing on? 04:08:41 Xach: any confirmation? 04:08:42 minion: memo for yates: symbols don't have values, variables do, symbols are used to name variables, and symbols are first-class objects, so you can have symbols in a variable, it has nothing to do with pointers in C 04:08:43 Remembered. I'll tell yates when he/she/it next speaks. 04:09:08 minion: thanks, you're a true pal! 04:09:09 you're welcome 04:09:10 speak 04:09:10 yates, memo from stassats: symbols don't have values, variables do, symbols are used to name variables, and symbols are first-class objects, so you can have symbols in a variable, it has nothing to do with pointers in C 04:09:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.112.101.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:09:56 so what defines a variable? 04:10:00 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-90-0.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:18 when i (setq x 100), what variable am i setting? 04:10:27 ehh 04:10:31 yates: X 04:11:00 so there is a one-to-one mapping of symbol names to variable names? 04:12:12 hitecnologys: ? 04:12:13 minion: memo for yates: there are several binding-introducing operators, LET, DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER, arguments to functions, etc; if you just do (setq x 100) without introducing a variable, it'll have undefined consequences 04:12:13 Remembered. I'll tell yates when he/she/it next speaks. 04:12:23 fun, ain't it? 04:13:55 speak 04:13:55 yates, memo from stassats: there are several binding-introducing operators, LET, DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER, arguments to functions, etc; if you just do (setq x 100) without introducing a variable, it'll have undefined consequences 04:14:17 right, i misspoke - i've been using elisp too long. 04:14:44 but the question is still largely relevent 04:14:46 (and i'm not gonna play anymore) 04:14:52 is a one-to-one mapping of symbol names to variable names? 04:15:12 rife [~point9@180.191.140.76] has joined #lisp 04:15:52 Why does compiler says that something is conflicting with it's asserted type when i'm trying to compare some structures's slots values? It says the slot's type must be structure! What's wrong? 04:16:23 hitecnologys: perhaps you've made a typo 04:16:24 think relational database. if a table has a 1-1 relationship to another table, then you might as well include that table's fields in the original table. 04:16:36 hitecnologys: can you paste your code with the error? 04:16:53 Yeah. Wait a minute. 04:17:21 Just one function or whole code? 04:17:33 one function should be enough 04:17:36 OK. 04:18:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129532 04:19:23 and annotate it with the error 04:19:29 OK 04:20:32 Done 04:20:39 It's not really error. 04:20:48 But I thing something is wrong. 04:20:52 think 04:22:33 my telepathic abilities are failing me, can you annotate with the whole code then? 04:22:40 OK. 04:23:12 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:23:51 if i type x at the repl, am i directly evaluating the value of the variable named x ? 04:24:19 or am i going through the symbol X somehow? 04:24:24 Done. 04:25:24 superflit [~superflit@67-41-146-123.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:40 CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.85.252] has joined #lisp 04:27:17 if i type x at the repl, am i directly evaluating the value of the variable named x, or am i going through the symbol X somehow? 04:27:40 hitecnologys: find-resource always returns NIL 04:28:02 Wait a minute, I'll check. 04:28:06 it only prints some things 04:28:13 (format t ...) always returns NIL 04:28:22 Oh shit! 04:28:23 yeah! 04:28:25 Thanks. 04:28:29 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.197.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:28:30 you probably want to put resource at the end of the body 04:28:34 the moment of "aha" 04:28:40 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-72.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:29:04 "No warnings". Thanks a lot! 04:29:41 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:08 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:30:36 hitecnologys: protip: (find-if #'(lambda (resource) (equalp (resource-name resource) resource-name)) (storage-resources (find-storage storage-id))) == (find resource-name (storage-resources (find-storage storage-id)) :key #'resource-name :test #'equalp) 04:30:57 Oh, thanks. 04:31:25 do variables exist without symbols? 04:31:34 yates: the repl will eventually do something like (eval 'x) and there is quite likely a special case for eval'ing a single symbol. But in general, evaluating a symbol first checks if it's a symbol macro (check lexical env and global env), special variable (check special decls in env and glboal), lexical variable, or undeclared special variable 04:31:41 (I hope that's right, anyway) 04:31:44 And another question: is there's a way to serialize some structure or I need to write it by myself? 04:32:06 -!- Kwucks [cbdb88d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.219.136.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:32:07 hitecnologys: and you do REMOVE on things, it doesn't modify the variable 04:32:18 it just returns a newly consed list 04:32:19 yates: lexical variables in compiled code need not keep the symbol around, but you can't define one without having a symbol to name it 04:32:36 kpreid: what about (defvar x) 04:32:37 ? 04:32:53 does that define a variable without any associated symbol? 04:33:00 no, x is a symbol 04:33:21 it already exists, because it is part of the form (defvar x) 04:33:43 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.212.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:34:02 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.212.110] has joined #lisp 04:34:08 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 04:35:07 kpreid: so if i (defvar x), then evaluate x, i get an error: "The variable X is unbound." 04:35:09 hitecnologys: you can use make-load-form with make-load-form-saving-slots 04:35:23 for serialization 04:35:28 what does it mean to bind a variable? 04:35:30 stassats: Thanks a lot. 04:35:42 yates: the terminology is a bit confusing 04:35:56 i thought that means "bring into existence" and that is what the defvar would have done 04:35:58 *in this case*, what is meant is that the symbol-value of the symbol x is not bound 04:36:11 that is, the symbol x, considered as a variable, *has no value* 04:36:38 in general to "bind" a variable is to give it a value 04:36:56 Is there a remove variant with side-effects? 04:37:02 hitecnologys: no 04:37:06 OK. 04:37:06 you need to use SETF 04:37:39 (not to say that such a variable exists), but special variables are sort of fuzzy about existing  there is the symbol-value slot, and there are special declarations, which are independent but usually used together 04:37:45 hitecnologys: or, if you really want, you can use alexandria:removef 04:38:13 (there's actually a variant of remove with side-effects, but not the kind of side effects you want, it's called DELETE) 04:38:14 No, setf is OK for me. 04:38:37 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:18 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 04:39:29 kpreid: what it sounds like is happening in this case is that a) (defvar x) only defines a variable without defining thesymbol x, and b) evaluating x evaluates the variable the symbol x is bound to, and since you haven't sone something like (setq x 123) the symbol x hasn't been bound to the variable x. or is this utter bullshit? 04:39:58 "defining a symbol" is nonsense 04:40:25 What (defvar x) does is globally declare the symbol x special. Nothing more, nothing less. 04:40:57 kpreid: isn't "interning a symbol" essentially definiing it? i.e., proclaimng it exists? 04:41:05 Yes, but you don't call that defining. 04:41:29 ok, well substitute "define" with "intern" then. 04:41:47 Here is how evaluation proceeds: (eval 'x) -> because x is not lexically bound, -> (symbol-value 'x) -> error because x has no symbol-value 04:41:48 hitecnologys: and instead of (cond ((equalp "string" x) #'fun)) you could use (defvar *commands* '(("help" . print-help))) and then use ASSOC on it 04:42:23 kpreid: how can a symbol exist and not have a value? 04:42:27 stassats: Good idea, added to fixing queue. 04:42:42 wait 04:42:46 yates: a symbol is an object in memory; the symbol-value is just a field (with some slight magic to it) 04:43:06 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 04:43:10 "x is not lexically bound" even if you had previously (defvar x)? 04:43:33 Yes, defvar has to do with special variables, and not lexical variables. 04:43:47 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 04:43:53 And any time you (eval ...) or enter something at the REPL, the lexical environment is empty 04:44:16 If you (eval '(let (...) ...)) then inside of the let the lexical environment is not empty, of course. 04:44:27 and the lexical environment wouldn't have an effect on special variables 04:44:50 Er, right. I was thinking of the not-declared-special case. 04:45:11 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:46:10 i see. i guess i thought defvar was a way to lexically bind a variable to the top level 04:46:30 In Common Lisp, there is no global lexical anything. 04:46:40 hitecnologys: and when you do (mapcar #'print-storage *storages*), you unnecessarily cons a new list, it's better to use MAPC, or even (map nil ) 04:46:44 that's news to me! 04:47:09 Everything that is global is not lexically scoped. 04:47:12 so all lexical variables begin in a "let" somewhere? 04:47:17 Yes. 04:47:20 ah. 04:47:42 Well, some surrounding form that introduces lexical variables. 04:48:14 they could be passed parameters, too, but eventually, if you go far enough up the call tree, you'd arrive at a let 04:48:15 e.g. in ((lambda (x) ...) 1), x is bound to 1 04:48:27 Er, no. 04:48:54 Lexical scope DOES NOT EVER care about callers. 04:48:57 By definition. 04:48:59 yates by the way in real code it's a convention to put earmuffs around special variables to avoid clashes with lexical variables, (defvar *x*) 04:49:03 Expunge that thought from your brain. 04:49:19 kennyd: right. i've seen that, e.g., from pcl 04:49:24 kpreid: ok! lol! 04:49:24 parameters (in defun, lambda, or whatever) are lexical bindings themselves 04:49:39 unless declared special 04:49:44 well, yes. 04:50:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@12.132.197.125] has joined #lisp 04:50:16 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 04:50:47 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.95.236] has joined #lisp 04:50:53 yates see this as the reason why: (defvar *x* nil) (defun print-x () (print *x*)) (let ((*x* 10)) (print-x)) 04:52:37 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:00 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:53:02 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 04:54:17 *x*=> nil 04:54:20 also 04:54:26 wztian [~quassel@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 04:54:38 not in the let body 04:54:46 no, back at the repl 04:55:46 all this glorious time could be spent reading Practical Common Lisp, which explains this in detail 04:55:59 isn't this just showing that lexical bindings override special variables? 04:56:20 if i eval (print-x) at the top level of the repl, i get NIL 04:57:21 or am i confused? 04:57:52 in that code, there are no lexical bindings 04:58:09 does the (let ((*x* 10)) ... perform a lexical binding? 04:58:12 yates the point was that let had effect even in the print-x function 04:58:17 no, specifically because *x* is declared special 04:58:29 if it were not, then it would have a lexical binding 04:58:30 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:44 somebody, please tell yates to read http://gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 04:58:58 it even has ascii art and stuff 04:59:01 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 04:59:23 then why wouldn't the value of *x* be 10 at the top level - didn't the (let ((*x* 10)) set it to 10? it is not 10 after this call, but still nil 04:59:45 "at the top level after the call"] 04:59:49 s/]// 04:59:54 this piecemeal assembly of the standard is getting boring 05:00:01 wztian_ [~quassel@li400-235.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:04 -!- wztian [~quassel@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:03:31 kpreid: ? 05:04:43 if (let ((*x* 10)) ...) is setting the special variable *x* and not some "lexical copy", why wouldn't evaluating *x* after the let (at the top leveL) retrieve the value 10? 05:05:17 -!- wztian_ [~quassel@li400-235.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:05:21 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:21 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:35 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:35 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:52 doesn't evaluating *x* at the top level evaluate the _special variable_ *x*? 05:07:00 stassats: hey, asshole - no one memorizes or learns the standard in one sitting. 05:08:07 jwz-watcher: #lisp is not a learning tool 05:08:38 jwz-watcher: why are you calling him an asshole? 05:09:52 yates value is changed temporarily, for the duration of the let form 05:10:18 especially considering that we have such a great learning resource as PCL 05:12:08 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:44 tomodo: it's cool and hip nowadays to call everybody an "asshole", haven't you read it on reddit? 05:13:05 stassats: print-help here is without #', is this ok? (defvar *commands* '(("help" . print-help))) 05:13:17 hitecnologys: yes, it's ok 05:13:20 I get called worse than that on reddit 05:13:25 hitecnologys: #' wouldn't have been ok 05:13:38 tomodo: no, there was an article about that 05:13:43 but anyway, we all have complete access to CLHS 05:13:53 there's no need to "memorize it" 05:13:54 and Practical Common Lisp 05:15:10 kennyd: so if this is running on a multitasking system and a task switch occurs inside the let form to another form, what value will *x* have? ;) 05:15:12 hitecnologys: funcall accepts either a function or a symbol naming a function, so, since print-help is not evaluated there (it's quoted), it's a symbol, #'print-help, not being evaluated, would just be a list 05:15:20 Modius [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-121-221-26-130.lns3.wel.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:15:55 stassats: ok. 05:16:12 -!- Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.6.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:16:25 Should a simple struct with 3 members (untyped) be bigger than an array? On lispworks, (time (make-array 4)) is 24 bytes, (time (make-my-node 1 2 3)) is 324 bytes 05:17:15 it should not be 05:17:35 but it shouldn't be be either 05:18:08 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:19:02 Modius: and are you sure that it's the structure taking this space 05:19:59 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:59 stassats: No good way to know - I'm just looking at the "Allocation" metric that's pretty scary. 05:22:03 sacho [~sacho@95-42-90-0.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 05:23:13 (time (sleep 5)) allocates 60040 bytes on lispworks 05:25:20 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:27:40 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:27:52 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:26 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:38 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:51 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 05:42:50 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 05:44:08 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:03 Modius: not a real answer, but clos instances have a much lower percieved overhead. 05:48:23 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:49 Modius: for lispworks support, you should join the lispworks users mailing list. you'll probably get a very good (and less speculative) answer there when you ask. 05:48:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:49:00 Thanks 05:49:39 i guess that make-my-node just takes more time (for parsing args and such) and that's why it reports more space 05:50:20 stassats: good guess :) 05:50:58 based on different values for (time (sleep 0._some_zeroes_1)) 05:52:52 -!- rife [~point9@180.191.140.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:40 well no 05:53:58 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54:05 i think the real reason for the memory usage is that lispworks has an interpreter 05:54:23 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 05:54:31 well, i thought it accounts for the big IDE running 05:54:43 when the struct constructor is called from a compiled file, 24 bytes are allocated on my 64 bit box 05:55:17 kind of another reason not to want to use lispworks 05:55:20 Yeah, in the IDE (was using Emacs) lispworks gives random results. 05:56:18 wztian [~quassel@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 05:57:24 when you (compile 'make-my-node), the memory usage drops as well 05:57:56 so i think that when you use (defstruct ...) on the repl, the constructor and accessor are not compiled. 05:58:06 eureka! \o/ 05:58:13 Yeah that was it :( 05:58:22 Haha - it was the constructor 05:59:48 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:28 mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has joined #lisp 06:02:10 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:04:36 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:02 wztian_ [~wztian@li400-235.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:22 -!- wztian [~quassel@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:09:30 -!- shifty is now known as Guest8020 06:12:07 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:12:23 madmuppet006 [~user@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:17:06 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:19 harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:17:28 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:20:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-252.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:23:19 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.179.139] has joined #lisp 06:23:29 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@181.132.179.139] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:30 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 06:28:37 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:31:47 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:31:55 mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has joined #lisp 06:33:38 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:36:08 -!- madmuppet006 [~user@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:32 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:38:45 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:12 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:40:52 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 06:41:53 -!- wztian_ [~wztian@li400-235.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48:25 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:52:02 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:06 xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has joined #lisp 06:55:14 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:56:06 I failed to find a fine documentation on embedding ECL. Do you recommend FFI instead of running from C? 06:56:34 depends on what you want to do 06:56:53 Use an existing C++ library. 06:58:13 c++ is not very interoperability-friendly 06:59:08 Thanks for the hint, and I figured that I'd have to write a wrapper anyway. Boss is calling me, back in hours... 06:59:10 -!- xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has left #lisp 06:59:45 i'm following http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html and i don't get the behavior "ome things to note are that after you type the opening parenthesis and the word DEFUN, at the bottom of the Emacs window, SLIME will tell you the arguments expected.". i have emacs-vcs installed. i installed slime via quicklisp. i am running slime with M-x slime 07:00:28 where do you type (defun ? 07:00:40 it should be either a .lisp file or the REPL 07:00:41 -!- harish [~harish@cm108.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:00:46 i open a new file with C-x C-f 07:00:59 Does anyone know how to initialize structure loaded from make-load-form-saving-slots's form? 07:01:02 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 07:01:04 what's it extension? 07:01:07 oh. i made a .cl file 07:01:29 hitecnologys: it initializes itself 07:02:17 adnap: yeah, emacs doesn't see .cl files as having lisp mode by default 07:02:19 No, when I eval (make-load-form-saving-slots (make-storage :id 0 :resources (list (make-resource :name "Test" :quantity 10)))) it creates #S(STORAGE :ID 0 :DESCRIPTION 0 :RESOURCES 0) . 07:02:45 now it's working. thanks guys! 07:02:55 I've read that make-load-form-saving-slots return 2 values. But how to use second for initialization? 07:03:13 you need to define a make-load-form method 07:03:14 I've tried funcall but got an error. 07:04:01 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:59 actually, you need make-load-form only if you want to save your structures in fasls 07:05:31 it would be printed readbly just as it is 07:06:23 so, you can just PRINT and READ from a file 07:06:40 this doesn't work: "Or you can just type C-c C-q to invoke the command slime-close-parens-at-point, which will insert as many closing parentheses as necessary to match all the currently open parentheses." 07:06:52 adnap: it doesn't exist anymore 07:07:07 stassats: it seems like a good feature 07:07:43 adnap: just use C-RET 07:07:43 ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:08:12 it will close all parentheses and send it to lisp 07:08:33 and for file buffers, use paredit 07:09:02 i get " is undefined" 07:09:07 in the repl! 07:09:12 stassats: So I just need to write #S() form in file and then read it? 07:09:21 hitecnologys: right 07:09:24 how do i get to the repl? 07:09:34 C-x b *slime-repl sbcl* 07:09:37 stassats: Thanks again. ;) 07:09:52 or C-c C-z from a file buffer 07:10:57 stassats: why would i type C-RET in the repl if i'm trying to complete parens of the definition in my file? 07:11:20 adnap: because you're using paredit in your file 07:11:36 and with paredit, there are no unbalanced parenthesis 07:11:41 stassats: i am? i don't know what paredit is 07:11:48 you should! 07:11:55 minion: please tell adnap about paredit 07:11:55 adnap: look at paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 07:12:21 I also use paredit in the slime repl, had to edit slime-repl-history-pattern to right-trim the parens, but if it broke anything else I didn't notice 07:12:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:12:47 so with this C-RET will work? 07:12:55 with this you won't need C-RET 07:14:03 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:14:07 adnap: and there's a new command, in case you're not ready for paredit, C-c C-] 07:14:39 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:42 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 07:15:06 stassats: i think you were deliberately misleading. 07:15:07 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 07:15:37 you can think what you want, be my guest 07:15:41 stassats: i was very confused 07:17:02 stassats: i still am... what does C-RET in the repl supposed to do? 07:17:23 C-h k C-RET 07:17:45 although i did tell you 07:17:51 teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has joined #lisp 07:17:54 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:18:22 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 07:19:01 stassats: C-h k doesn't work 07:19:19 how so? 07:19:29 harish [~harish@119.234.151.222] has joined #lisp 07:19:31 do you use a console emacs or some other atrocity? 07:19:44 C-h deletes a character and moves my pointer left 07:19:48 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:22 what prevents you from using a graphical emacs? 07:20:35 nothing 07:20:57 anyway, you can use M-x describe-key C-RET 07:21:22 in case you prefer to use a handicapped interface 07:22:22 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:24:50 why does C-h not work. the emacs tutorial mentions it 07:25:12 because in a text terminal C-h means backspaces 07:25:30 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:00 stassats: i see. also, i figured out that functions like C-h 07:26:21 irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has joined #lisp 07:26:49 although the latest emacs appears to have this problem fixed or my terminals are just funky 07:27:18 in any case, using a windowed emacs is just so much better 07:28:00 why? 07:29:06 because you can have several windows, you can have fonts of different colors, sizes, slants or whatnot, you can see images, use a mouse, etc. 07:31:34 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:58 adnap: when you come to it, a VT is just a very limited display system. And outside of xterm no terminal supports graphical display :P 07:32:01 adnap: normal-erase-is-backspace-mode can sometimes fix this problem. 07:32:02 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:32:05 (which is utterly crazy mode) 07:33:07 p_l: i am using xterm 07:33:42 is the graphical emacs a different package? 07:33:48 sdemarre1 [~serge@91.176.161.165] has joined #lisp 07:33:51 adnap: yes. And no one is crazy enough to use Textronics 4014 for Emacs 07:34:11 (that's a *CAD* oriented vector display... implemented by xterm) 07:34:30 adnap: which distro? 07:34:52 if debian, then remove emacs23-nox and install emacs23 07:35:02 adnap: you might have installed emacs-nox. Or use Gentoo and compile with wrong USE 07:35:18 i have gentoo installed and i installed emacs-vcs 07:36:12 well... you might have to recompile emacs with apropriate USE flags 07:36:18 been looong time since I used Getoo 07:36:20 *Gentoo 07:36:27 i understand 07:36:46 i am getting sleepy... 07:37:22 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.95.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:37:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:44 kilon [~kilon@62.1.246.247.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:45:50 i appreciate the help 07:46:57 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:47:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:49:50 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:56:20 -!- theos is now known as Guest92422 07:56:52 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:58:33 wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:28 -!- Guest92422 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:59:50 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-129-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:00:42 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-129-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:02:09 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:06:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-93-69.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:07:40 -!- irpanech0 [~user@24.68.147.165] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:08:44 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-17-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:10:56 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:02 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.42.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:13:00 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 08:14:50 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129205081.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 08:15:52 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21212.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:19:04 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-17-57.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:21:43 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:00 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:01 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@245-124-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:41 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:30:45 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@CPE-121-221-26-130.lns3.wel.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 08:33:02 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host85-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:41:16 i got graphical emacs and paredit installed. i like 08:46:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:48:15 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:43 adnap: what platform are you on 08:50:45 ? 08:51:10 Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host85-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:51:33 adnap: nm. 08:53:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:56:43 yates: platform? 08:58:17 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:47 adnap: macosx, linux, ms-windows, mvs, atari, amiga? 08:59:48 gentoo 08:59:56 xecycle [~user@202.120.55.140] has joined #lisp 08:59:59 an oil rig? 09:00:16 xecycle: so you found the embedding documentation yet? 09:00:32 pjb: Well, only found some examples. 09:00:39 xecycle: what about google? https://www.google.com/search?q=ecl+embedding&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a 09:00:50 adnap: i asked because i've seen similar key map problems under cygwin under certain circumstances. 09:00:55 but that wasn't your problem. 09:01:36 pjb: The official documentation is very incomplete. The osdir link is forbidden (to me). 09:01:58 bad country, change country. 09:02:07 pjb: Or, do you recommend writing a C style wrapper and use FFI? 09:02:31 I don't recommend anything, I don't know what you want to do. 09:03:10 pjb: I want to use a C++ library and Common Lisp. The library is heavily OO. 09:03:55 If you want to call C++ stuff from CL, write a C wrapper over the C++ library and FFI to that C wrapper. 09:03:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-202.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-202.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:03:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:04:11 xecycle: if the C++ library is well done, you may have some luck with swig. 09:05:04 pjb: It relies on inheriting given classes to work --- is it easy? 09:05:29 Nothing's easy with C++. 09:06:15 So I'd better write a C style wrapper over that. 09:10:45 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 09:10:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 09:10:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:10:50 Hey, guys, is there's a function like a find-if but finds all the items? 09:11:03 remove-if-not 09:11:11 pjb: Another problem: What about garbage collection? The C++ objects in that library can be somewhat expensive. 09:11:13 Oh, thanks. 09:11:26 xecycle: use boehmgc. 09:11:42 xecycle: actually, C++ libraries manage garbage themselves. 09:11:49 xecycle: learn C++. 09:12:00 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:12:24 xecycle: or rewrite it in Common Lisp! 09:13:09 Soda [~user@31.40.53.195] has joined #lisp 09:13:16 pjb: I kind of know C++, but, when an object is GC'ed in CL, what does it behave in C++? Or can I know when the object is collected and destroy the corresponding objects in C++? 09:13:42 xecycle: you can have finalizers 09:13:47 minion: trivial-garbage 09:13:48 trivial-garbage: trivial-garbage provides a portable API to finalizers, weak hash-tables and weak pointers on all major CL implementations. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 09:14:38 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:14:40 Thanks :) 09:14:41 Or you can write with- macros to free C++ storage. 09:14:52 I would do that rather than depend on implementation specific finalizers. 09:15:30 with-free can get old pretty quick 09:16:07 kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-111.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:16:21 An object may be constructed gradually, then used more than one time. Using with-macros are probably not acceptable. 09:16:59 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-65-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:01 Or I need to rethink the design. 09:18:04 or rewrite everything in lisp 09:18:39 Anyway rewriting that library in CL is not possible for me. ~150MiB installed size. 09:19:08 You mean, there are 150 MB of C++ sources? 09:19:09 what's 150MiB in this day and age 09:19:18 Also there are > 400 MiB "data files" to translate, if I decided to change that. 09:19:34 pjb: No, but headers + compiled libraries. 09:19:37 Notice that rewrite in Lisp, that could fall down to 1 MB of CL sources. 09:19:49 Why would you have to translate data files?! 09:20:11 xecycle: do you even know how many SLOC C++ there are? 09:20:15 Don't quite know how does their data file look like. 09:20:29 pjb: I can count it now. Wait. 09:21:31 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-190-169.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:25:46 938k L of .cc files and 1.5M L of everything in source/. 09:26:18 -!- mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:26 source/ consumes 69MiB. 09:26:29 So you could rewrite it in 500kLoCL. 09:27:20 50,000 I mean, 50 kLoCL. 09:27:41 Oops. Quite a huge project for me. BTW I'm studying physics, and am not lucky that no one around is able to help me on this. 09:27:51 you'll be done in less than 30 years at 50 LOC a day :-) 09:27:52 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-126-13.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:28:27 xecycle: find/write a C wrapper that only manipulates pointers to objects and use the FFI on that. Finalisers can call the C-side deallocator when an object is GCed, if you must. 09:28:38 or in 2 months, at 1000 LoC a day. 09:28:57 pkhuong: Thanks, I'm also considering this. 09:29:53 pjb: If I write 1000 LoC per day I'm likely to find myself deleting 950 LoC per day. 09:30:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:32:07 xecycle: generally my solution to this was: 1) C++ side uses boost::shared_ptrs, with cycles broken by boost::weak_ptrs 2) Objects are passed to lisp via reference assignment to shared_ptr, ie void get_foo(shared_ptr &ret) { ret = ...real_obtain_object_ } 09:32:19 with emacs keyboard macros, i can write any amount of lines 09:33:27 xecycle: on lisp side, I hash the objects in a weak hash table. If object was already hashed, I call into C++ to deref the object, and return hashed version.. Therefore at any given time, Lisp side will hold at most 1 reference to C++ shared pointer. Lisp object also has a finalizer attached, which releases the object 09:33:54 so far this had been working very well for me, with not a single object lost over several days of runtime 09:34:28 maxm-: Thanks a lot. About which pointer to use... Hmm, still considering. 09:35:26 I just use raw pointers. But, then again, I don't share them with C++ code in circumstances when ownership is ambiguous. 09:36:36 I may or may not use the same object hierarchy as the original library, and am likely to end up using pointers to my proxy objects. 09:36:41 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 09:40:51 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:41:38 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:41 *xecycle* goes dinner, bye 09:44:44 -!- xecycle [~user@202.120.55.140] has left #lisp 09:49:50 -!- kilon [~kilon@62.1.246.247.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:51:11 -!- jiroukaja [~jiroukaja@softbank221094150218.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:49 kilon [~kilon@188.4.81.218.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:59:27 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:59:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:59:51 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:01:09 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.212.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:03:09 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 10:03:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:03:25 hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.212.110] has joined #lisp 10:08:18 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:10 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:13:47 icrazyhack [~horieyui@202.120.202.123] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has joined #lisp 10:14:46 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:22:02 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:23:30 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@245-124-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:25 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:26:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:26:20 tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has joined #lisp 10:26:30 Guthur [~user@host86-160-23-11.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:10 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:44 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A015.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.162.20] has joined #lisp 10:47:54 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 10:48:42 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:54:18 scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:30 Erlfin [~opera@cm-84.211.120.252.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 10:59:38 -!- Erlfin [~opera@cm-84.211.120.252.getinternet.no] has left #lisp 11:02:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:42 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:19:15 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:22:21 jwz-watcher: Of what? 11:23:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:24:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:24:58 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129205081.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:26:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 11:30:33 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:35:42 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129205081.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 11:38:31 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:40:43 -!- Soda [~user@31.40.53.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:34 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:47:05 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.227.220] has joined #lisp 12:01:07 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has joined #lisp 12:01:23 http://common-lisp.net/project/jnil/ is not in quicklisp (yet) but sounds interesting 12:01:44 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ccdb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:27 francogrex: I don't think it uses asdf 12:02:36 I take that back, I see the .asd now 12:02:58 asdf is just a made up name 12:03:26 And of course is from a QWERTY user. 12:03:41 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:05:24 I actually read ASDF as Another System Definition Format 12:05:25 Xach: I just knew about this today while browing your git from linj ... I don't know how it is (is it developped, active etc...) 12:06:58 ngz [~user@219.13.97.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:02 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:31 oh well and common-lisp.netis rejecting anonymous cvs login: cvs -z3 -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/jnil/cvsroot co jnil ? 12:23:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:27:00 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-252.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:27:56 KDr2 [~kdr2@50.22.184.106-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 -!- human_bot is now known as upasna 12:29:11 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 12:29:12 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:30:23 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@50.22.184.106-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:40 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.241.74] has joined #lisp 12:30:51 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.241.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:04 KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.241.74] has joined #lisp 12:32:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:37:35 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-107-122-25.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:49:16 -!- scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:36 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:57 hagish [~hagish@e181037075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:07 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:55:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:56:27 why is it stated in pcl/chap "variables" that "since integers and characters are immutable"? 12:57:07 is he referring to the actual integers themselves (1, 2, etc.), or integer *variables*? neither way makes sense to me. 12:57:40 yates: integers themselves. 12:58:42 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@adsl-90-150-19-92.purpe.ru] has joined #lisp 12:58:49 yates: You can create new integer objects and assign them to variables, but not modify existing ones. 12:59:56 this is in contrast with, for example C, in which integers are mutable. In CL, everything is (conceptually) a reference, even integer values. So, assigning to a variable that is bound to an integer only changes the variable's reference, without affecting any other binding. 13:00:28 what about something such as (setf (ldb (byte 8 0) foo) 42) ? 13:00:31 yates: eg. there's logbitp to get a bit in an integer, but there's no (setf logbitp). 13:00:39 it modifies an existing integer 13:00:49 galdor: no, it doesn't. 13:00:51 yates: dpb returns a new integer, it doesn't modify the existing integer. 13:00:58 (setf ldb) = dpb. 13:01:08 galdor: no; look at the source. Hacks like these are the reason why there are setf expanders (macros) as well as setf functions. 13:01:26 pjb: in this context, it is modifying a place 13:01:26 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@178.47.227.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:01:27 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.18] has joined #lisp 13:01:29 I didn't know about dpb, thank you 13:01:51 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:01:58 but any given implementation of the language can't possibly have an infinite number of objects "predefined"! 13:02:00 galdor: the place designated by (ldb (byte 8 0) foo) is not the lsb byte of foo, but foo itself. It's a little strange. 13:02:19 yates: of course. 13:02:23 yates: so what? 13:02:29 yep it's not obvious, I'll look into it 13:02:30 yates: ok? 13:02:34 xyxu [~Adium@180.157.5.32] has joined #lisp 13:02:46 yates: notice that (EQ 1 1) may return NIL: this proves you can have two copies of 1 in that implementation. 13:03:01 yates: ie. numbers and characters don't need to be interned. 13:03:03 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@154-95-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:19 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:42 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:06:55 it sounds like EQ compares the address at which the object lives, and not the value of it. 13:07:10 the objects 13:07:17 values of them 13:07:20 Yes. 13:08:12 so i guess the language, at runtime, somehow magically takes care of creating new objects when they are needed? 13:08:43 yes. In some cases the object doesn't exist, as all the data can be represented in an address. 13:08:49 e.g., (defvar q 123456789) automagically creates an integer object with value 123456789 and points q to it? 13:09:23 (assuming it didn't exist before...) 13:09:27 yates: right, at least conceptually. Small enough integers (fixnums) are usually represented as bogus addresses. 13:09:30 yates: not necessarily. 13:09:53 pjb: in what case(s) is(are) my statement not true? 13:10:04 yates: if (< 123456789 most-positive-fixnum), then we could just store 123456789 in q instead of storing the address of 123456789. 13:10:13 It's an implementation choice. 13:10:27 In that case, you would get (EQ 123456789 123456789) --> true. 13:11:00 pjb: I'm curios that is there an implementation that (eq 1 1) => nil? (the exact form) 13:11:46 some early versions of ABCL, I believe. We can arrange that in SBCL if you want. 13:12:11 Of course I don't want that. 13:12:46 I'd imagine that if you wrote an implementation targetting bash or javascript, you could have that situation. Notabaly for characters. 13:13:19 So, does parenscript have this behaviour? 13:13:22 Notice: in bash or in Javascript there is no character type! 13:13:31 Yup. 13:13:50 xecycle: learn about parenscript. Ask again later. 13:14:42 pjb: this is where abstraction and reality clash... what if you happened to want to create 1000 variables with a value > most-positive-fixnum. how do i know whether that requires 4000 bytes of memory or 4? (assuming 32-bit) 13:14:46 By now I don't need to use that. 13:14:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:15:03 or instead of 1000, use some big number that matters on the platform. 13:15:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:15:52 i.e., any time you want to actually execute the code, things like this start mattering.. 13:16:08 evaluate, execute, whatever... 13:17:01 yates: in abstraction, there's no memory to fill. 13:17:08 in reality you use (ROOM T). 13:17:37 and you buy a few tens of Gigabytes more RAM. 13:18:09 pjb: try not to take this so flippantly. 13:18:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:32 yates: notice how cheap it is: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=DDR+RAM+4+GB&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=asR&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1680&bih=883&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=11706691315615754113&sa=X&ei=UO-4T7yFK6mj4gT776nDCQ&ved=0CP4BEPMCMAY 13:19:41 yates: In your hypothetical, the answer is either 4000 or 4004, not 4000 or 4 13:20:14 yates: the difference being whether there are 4000 references to the number or 4000 immediate representations of it. 13:20:22 yates: abstraction and reality don't clash. You just don't use EQ and ROOM and don't think about how much memory is used by variables or objects. This doesn't help you writing working programs! 13:20:40 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:48 most people must write code that must execute under some real-world constraints. i get nervous when a language obfuscates the mechanisms it uses so that you cannot get a good handle on either run time or memory requirements 13:21:18 yates: and by the time you've finished a working program, computers will have ten times more memory for a tenth the price. 13:21:48 yates: The language leaves room for different implementation strategies, so if it matters to you, consult the documentation or implementation of your CL implementation. 13:22:05 pjb: what if i wanted to use cl on an embedded platform? there are more processors out there than an x86! 13:22:19 yates: In the beginning, it often doesn't matter, and in the end, you often know enough to find out exactly what you need. 13:22:22 Xach: fair enough. 13:22:45 Indeed, if you end up with an unworkable program, you may always change the implementation to generate the code in an more space efficient way. But first think about your algorithm, it might be easier to reduce its space complexity without touching the compiler. 13:23:11 pjb: optimization at the algorithm level is always the first choice, of course 13:23:14 in any language 13:23:17 Many people seem to start with CL thinking about something far down the line, like how to deliver GUI applications on three platforms from the same codebase in under 5MB delivered. 13:24:01 i come from embedded - every kilobyte hurts! :) 13:24:33 heck, the old 8748 only had 256 bytes of RAM and 1024 bytes of program memory! 13:24:55 Intel 8748, the precursor to the 8051 which is still in IP usage today... 13:25:08 yates: I think Common Lisp is probably better suited for generating programs to run on an embedded platform than running on it itself. 13:25:59 yates: if you want to generate embedded code, you can write CL programs to do so (it has been done often with great success). But why would you be concerned by the memory usage of your CL program? You should care about the code and memory usage of the code GENERATED by your program, not USED by your program! 13:26:41 aren't these sorts of "new object" questions dealt with at program run time? 13:27:11 Those questions don't help writing working programs! 13:29:02 JPeterso2 [~JPeterson@s213-103-209-64.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:29:46 let me simply ask this: wouldn't any "sane" implementation reuse integers if they already existed? so that (eq intvar1 intvar2) would always be true if (= intvar1 intvar2)? 13:29:48 i'm having trouble find what the asterisk in "if*" does 13:30:06 as in (if* success where success is a boolean 13:30:41 yates: no 13:31:13 JPeterso2: IF* is a macro named "IF*". It is not "IF" with a syntactic modifier. 13:31:29 yates: interning is costly. 13:31:57 JPeterso2: IF* is a little like IF but with more noise words as part of the syntax. It's a little like extended LOOP that way. 13:32:05 JPeterso2: Allegro has a IF* macro that adds THEN and ELSE keywords. 13:32:21 interning meaning creating a new object and setting its value? 13:32:23 JPeterso2: it's even less liked than LOOP :-) 13:32:31 yates: no, the contrary. 13:32:46 ?? 13:32:46 yates: it means unifying equal objects so they become EQ. 13:32:58 *yates* removes his head and walks around awhile 13:33:07 Good idea :-) 13:33:30 (remove-if #'headp (body-parts)) 13:34:12 pjb: oh, i see. that makes sense. 13:34:27 flattening multiple objects into one.. 13:35:52 hitecnologys1 [~noname@94.137.16.36] has joined #lisp 13:36:12 Xach: where's the official documenttation of if*? 13:36:54 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_if.htm 13:37:25 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@46.233.212.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:37:31 yates: incorrect 13:37:54 JPeterso2: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/6.2/doc/operators/excl/if_s.htm 13:38:27 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 13:38:27 JPeterso2: I told you it was an allegro macro. Hence you should look it in allegro documentation!! 13:38:35 thx 13:39:51 sorry 13:40:30 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:41:48 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:41:59 afm - gotta intern a few variables... 13:42:36 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:47:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:55:19 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 13:58:23 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:53 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-111.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:58:56 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@202.120.202.123] has quit [Quit: http://www.cnblogs.com/crazyhack] 13:59:03 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:25 -!- pjb is now known as Guest5582 14:00:00 -!- sea4ever [~user@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has left #lisp 14:00:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:23 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:09:51 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:28 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has left #lisp 14:13:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:18:40 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@114.243.241.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:41 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:22:42 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:26:29 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:27:45 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-160-23-11.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:04 [6502] [5e24fc3e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.252.62] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.162.20] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 14:32:35 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:06 -!- holycow_ [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:36:31 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:37:02 -!- Guest5582 is now known as pjb` 14:37:11 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 14:38:47 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 14:40:16 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-107-3-142-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 14:45:11 <[6502]> hello. Do you guys think it's a terrible idea to have a reader macro expanding "a.b.c" into "(. (. a b) c)" ? 14:45:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:59 [6502]: no, it's not terrible. But it's hard to write, because you basically have to make a reader macro on each character, and nowadays there are #x10ffff characters. 14:46:05 what does (. (. a b) c) even mean? 14:46:33 (defmacro \. (object message) `(funcall ',message ,object)) (\. (\. a b) c) 14:46:53 <[6502]> stassats`: "." is a member access for javascript objects 14:46:56 so, why not (. a b c)? 14:47:03 if you must use such a thing 14:47:09 [6502]: better would be to write a single reader macro such as #\{ that would read and parse an expression in the syntax you want. 14:47:11 <[6502]> stassats`: indeed works also that way 14:47:18 [6502]: have a look at my Objective-CL reader macro. 14:47:51 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/245342429c61800/f7966bf3df9f716c?hl=en&q=objective-cl+group:comp.lang.lisp+author:pascal+author:bourguignon#f7966bf3df9f716c 14:48:24 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:49:10 pjb: Don't you think a Gmane link is more easily accessible? 14:49:13 [6502]: so you could write { a.b.c(x,y); r=a.d(z); } and it'd read as (progn (c (b a) x y) (setf r (d a z))). 14:49:21 xecycle: I don't care. 14:49:40 xecycle: just click on the fine link! 14:49:42 or you could write straight objective c 14:49:47 mikaelj [~tic@c83-249-198-162.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:49:56 stassats`: you could too. 14:50:22 Either you use ECL in an Objective-C program, or you use Objective-CL in a ccl or sbcl program. 14:50:37 pjb: It requires me to login to google account, well I do have one; but I remember the last time I checked G groups, it doesn't work. 14:50:50 xecycle: your problem. WFM. 14:51:17 paul0 [~paul0@189.115.62.122] has joined #lisp 14:51:20 xecycle: you can also read cll, and remember all my articles so that I don't have to remind them to you. 14:52:00 <[6502]> pbj: currently I can write the above as "(progn (a.b.c x y) (setf r (a.d z)))" because i can have a generic form in function position (not only lambda forms) 14:52:10 pjb: but you're not dead yet! 14:52:26 pjb: I do read c.l.l, but of course not possible to know all your articles. I believe you posted there before I touched a computer. 14:52:27 Yes, that's a problem, to update the index. 14:52:42 http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html is not up-to-date. 14:53:07 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:53:22 xecycle: yes, it might be a good idea to download all the cll article from the first day, and to read them all. I actually did that, but granted, it was fifteen years ago. 14:53:39 <[6502]> by the way... why is considered bad to allow generic forms in function position? 14:53:52 [6502]: it's not bad, it's a language design choice. 14:54:12 <[6502]> pjb: ok... what is the good part of NOT allowing them? 14:54:23 [6502]: but it's mostly to be consistent with the fact that we have special operators and macros, and no first-class special operator or macro. 14:54:39 [6502]: having to have variables like "lst" 14:55:16 Well, symbols could be evaluated with a different rule in first position than in the other position. That would also be surprising. 14:55:17 <[6502]> stassats`: you mean coherence with having function position in another namespace? but then why allowing lambda forms? 14:55:36 stassats`: I think it's a different issue; ((macro-that-resolve-to-lamba foo) bar) 14:55:40 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 14:55:41 lambda is a special case, not evaluation 14:56:24 <[6502]> Vivitron: but the macro could expand to (progn ...) why the need to expand to a lambda form? 14:56:26 Vivitron: so, evaluating only once 14:56:44 s/once/in some places/ 14:57:36 if it were to me, i'd disallow ((lambda ...) ...), for the sake of consistency 14:57:48 [6502]: and even if anonymous is useful, naming is also good, that gives some kind of comment. 14:58:22 stassats`: no, it's good for macros. 14:58:33 how so? 14:58:42 macros can't expand to funcall? 14:58:43 (defmacro m (f) `(,f 42)) (m sin) (m (lambda (x) (* x x))) 14:58:46 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:48 speaking of old c.l.l and CL design choices, some of my favorite articles are Kent Pitman's defense/explanation of the spec 14:59:04 If you prevent ((lambda then you will have a harder time writing this macro. 14:59:11 Vivitron: i am going to put all kmp's cll posts online soon 14:59:19 nicely browsing and searching 14:59:25 (defmacro m (f) `(funcall ',f 42)) and (m (lambda (x) (* x x))) is wrong. 14:59:30 pjb: i wouldn't be writing such a macro in the first place 14:59:39 (defmacro m (f) `(funcall ,f 42)) and (m sin) is wrong. 14:59:48 -!- xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has left #lisp 14:59:49 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C4F83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:50 stassats`: a lot of macros take function names. 14:59:56 (lambda ) is a function name! 14:59:57 Xach: great! I've already spent significant time browsing your Naggum archive 15:00:20 <[6502]> pjb: i'd write (m #'sin) 15:00:29 Therefore you don't need a macro. 15:00:34 (f #'sin) works as well. 15:00:40 -!- sdemarre1 [~serge@91.176.161.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:00:49 Well, my usenet.html page is not ALL my posts. Its point is to filter out the cruft. 15:00:55 what happened to Kent Pitman? 15:01:14 But perhaps some people like Kent or Eric write only good stuff. 15:01:31 Did Robert retire? 15:03:17 pjb: and (defmacro m (f) `(funcall #',f 42)) 15:03:29 ok, this one works. 15:03:36 you win. 15:03:39 yay! 15:04:28 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:41 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C4F83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:05:52 pnq [~nick@ACA3033A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:25 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-230-210-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:52 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:11:03 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:56 does (compilation-speed 3) have any effect on sbcl? before I bother timing? 15:14:00 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.115.62.122] has quit [Quit: paul0] 15:14:11 AFAIK, it has no effect. 15:14:21 (declaim (optimize (speed 3))) on the other hand 15:14:31 *maxm-* is disappoint 15:14:35 ed 15:14:45 But I may be wrong. 15:14:46 maxm-: very tiny. 15:15:43 that is, I'd expect faster compilation with (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (space 0))) than with (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (space 3))) 15:16:45 space 0 can do more inlining 15:17:11 *maxm-* has a feeling pjb is missing out lots of info on the internets :-) 15:18:14 maxm-: perhaps. What do you read? 15:18:14 Joreji [~thomas@80-241.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 pjb: nothing much lately, but thought "i am disappoint" was a well known meme 15:19:31 maxm-: not the best part of the internet 15:19:44 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:45 Yes, you can miss those parts. 15:26:40 *maxm-* finds them funny in small doses. The japanese student drawing rage faces to learn english was kind of good before it became popular 15:27:01 maxm-: OT 15:27:38 *maxm-* hangs his head in shame for his browsing habits and goes back to coding 15:28:00 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:28:34 to bring it back ontopic, SBCL slow compilation speed causes me to switch to other windows while my system is rebuilding, resulting in offtopic :-) 15:30:10 that means you should write smaller code 15:32:07 maxm-: switch to ccl 15:32:24 Or get a faster computer? 15:33:05 nyef: helps only to a degree 15:33:33 Write simpler functions, then? 15:33:47 that's what i meant by "smaller code" 15:33:53 so, ccl, faster computer, smaller code 15:34:02 jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:12 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.85.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:49 There's also the option of not rebuilding your system from scratch as often. 15:36:40 *maxm-* needs to switch to cffi from sb-alien first for ccl, its in the todo list.. nyef: unavoidable when doing big refactorings 15:37:19 *maxm-* is at the stage of his app development, where "anything working will do" needs to be replaced with more thought/out robust designs 15:38:08 Ah, yes. I've been there. "Oh, these functions need to be in some new package, and these three symbols should be the public ones..." And it's worse when you're relocating /classes/ that way... 15:38:59 At the same time, there's usually a way to do some fairly hefty refactoring without having to reload the system from scratch. 15:39:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:39:13 -!- hagish [~hagish@e181037075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:35 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 15:39:46 (Case in point: A massive restructuring of the paste index management and new-paste handling in lisppaste without a full reload-from-scratch or having the system broken for more than a couple minutes at a time.) 15:40:03 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3033A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:40:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:42:39 -!- springz [~springz@124.160.188.140] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:43:25 pnq [~nick@ACA3033A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:33 bruno_coelho [~bruno_coe@189.115.171.130] has joined #lisp 15:44:15 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:45:50 -!- bruno_coelho [~bruno_coe@189.115.171.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:18 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:48:01 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:48:54 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:33 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:49:34 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:39 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:51 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:56:20 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:24 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:57:21 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@12.132.197.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3033A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:58:54 pnq [~nick@ACA3033A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:41 pixelbrei [~user@83.125.63.81] has joined #lisp 15:59:50 nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:59:51 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@63-231-108-178.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:29 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:13 -!- xyxu [~Adium@180.157.5.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:06:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.16.36] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 -!- hitecnologys1 [~noname@94.137.16.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:12:50 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:17:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:19:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:20:10 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ccdb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:05 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:11 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@154-95-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:55 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:53 vinraec [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:11 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.173] has joined #lisp 16:27:13 -!- pixelbrei [~user@83.125.63.81] has left #lisp 16:27:21 covi [~covi@116.30.199.249] has joined #lisp 16:27:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:28:31 Hi guys I'm a newbie. Is Lisp (and its dialects) the best (or the relatively most advanced) functional programming language? Which dialect do you prefer? 16:28:54 Common Lisp. 16:28:59 covi: this channel is about common lisp and that is not a functional programming language 16:29:15 covi: nowadays, languages like Haskell are more advanced functional programming languages. 16:29:39 But that doesn't remove that lisp is a nice language, and that you can perfectly well use a functional programming style in lisp. 16:31:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@80-241.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:31:41 I see a fun pic that shows that fans of all other languages view Haskell as Einstein, but fans of Lisp view Haskell as a kitty. 16:32:09 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 covi: "fun pic" 16:32:15 Indeed. Haskellites consider static typing important, while we know it's not. 16:32:41 covi: "fun", that is, not to be taken seriously 16:33:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:34:39 Thanks guys. I am going to take a course this fall on SICP with Scheme. 16:35:01 There's also http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg 16:35:07 wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has joined #lisp 16:36:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3033A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:37:53 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 16:39:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:39:52 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:28 It's strange there's no "Lisp for Javascript developers" apparently. http://www.masterbaboon.com/2012/03/cobol-for-lisp-developers/ 16:40:56 :D 16:42:10 i'm interested in lisp for lisp developers 16:44:23 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.40.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:43 I think "Successfull Lisp" fits the bill. 16:48:21 -!- wztian [~wztian@219.153.126.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:52:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:36 -!- vinraec [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:29 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:00:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:22 tyson1 [~Ian@bas1-toronto06-1096637537.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:06:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has joined #lisp 17:09:17 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:10:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:13:12 -!- covi [~covi@116.30.199.249] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:18:24 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@60-64-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:30 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@60-64-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 17:19:43 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 17:22:07 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:14 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:55 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-092-075-069-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:43 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:19 iLogical [~iLogical@189.26.51.59.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:33:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:33:55 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has joined #lisp 17:34:33 is there some naming convention for functions that non-destructively modify objects. I.e. they work like (setf (something obj) x) but return a new copy instead of changing the target object 17:35:24 -!- wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:29 vinraec_ [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has joined #lisp 17:35:53 n-functions 17:35:56 experimenting with Linj: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129545 17:35:58 So, they're not actually modifying the objects? 17:36:04 yeah 17:36:06 oh, the other way around 17:36:08 just functions 17:36:09 stassats: No, that's the non-consing version, which... yeah. 17:36:38 for example, I have COLOR objects that are represented as 32 bit values, so I have RED, GREEN etc. for accessing those values 17:36:45 ordinary functions do not warrant a naming convention, the ones which do modify the object, do warrant 17:36:57 Flatlander: If a function doesn't modify its arguments it doesn't need a special name. 17:37:12 *doesn't DESTRUCTIVELY modify its arguments 17:37:18 I don't know if any of you had also played around with Linj maybe could comment? 17:37:35 naryl: can you constructively modify it? 17:37:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@188.4.81.218.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:50 -!- Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:09 stassats: I just used Flatlander's terminology :) 17:38:31 what does he know, he's not even three-dimensional! 17:38:31 (defun colour-from-coluor (base-colour &key red green blue) (make-colour (or red (colour-red base-colour)) ...)) ? 17:38:39 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@91-67-230-210-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:39:13 Or COMPOSE-COLOUR, with a composition type that can do things like COPY-RED-CHANNEL or something. 17:39:15 <[6502]> stassats: except sort that destroys but is named "sort" 17:39:30 [6502]: also remove/delete 17:39:47 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@bas1-toronto06-1096637537.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 17:40:40 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:59 -!- bieber_ [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:01 and rplaca 17:41:07 <[6502]> naryl: I remember being bitten by sort... 17:42:08 bieber [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has joined #lisp 17:42:12 sort is destructive because it doesn't make sense to have a non-destructive version of it 17:42:25 so you can have both by using sort and sort+copy-seq, when needed 17:42:50 -!- vinraec_ [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:59 <[6502]> stassats: and read-sequence 17:43:02 vinraec [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 <[6502]> stassats: do you work for IBM? 17:44:31 what kind of question is that? 17:45:34 non-destructive read-sequence doesn't make sense either 17:45:42 and then there's map-into 17:45:48 Least favorite aspect of SORT: It doesn't work properly with partial orders. 17:45:54 <[6502]> stassats: I remember this kind of wildcard answer "no one would need that" from IBM guys. E.g. "do MVS implementation of TCP socket async read supports out of band data?" --> "no one would need that" 17:46:43 [6502]: i don't see the parallel, non-destructive sort is as easy as (sort (copy-seq seq)) 17:47:09 Heck, I remember a particularly famous "no one would need that" from Digital. Something about computers in the home...? 17:47:12 and i don't any algoroithm of sort which will perform better than (sort (copy-seq seq)) while not modifying the original sequence 17:47:33 while (remove sequence) conses less than (delete (copy-seq sequence)) 17:47:34 <[6502]> stassats: and why not the having (defun sort (seq) (nsort (copy-seq seq))) ? 17:47:41 just answered 17:47:56 <[6502]> the=then 17:49:06 Somewhere or other, there has to be an article or paper or whatever titled "The CONSequences of Lisp Memory Allocation". 17:49:30 knobo [~bohmer@97.80-203-252.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:51:19 on ccl, remove is actually implemented as copy-list + delete 17:51:28 A bit of proficiency with paredit/code editing - it's ****ing surreal. . .. 17:51:30 but on sbcl (remove sequence) really conses less 17:52:26 I've had const hash table in my "Heresy" library for a while (undocumented), adding RBTree-based containers. One beef with all the haskell-derived versions is that they don't share structural links in a lot of situations. 17:53:04 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C4F83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:30 Part of my unit-test is verification that between any 2 iterations of the container, that any identical structure shares an identical link. Been playing whack-a-mole with them, think I got them all. 17:53:52 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 17:56:20 You didn't apply something like ACL2 to express the constraint and let the system prove that it was true? 17:57:12 Naah - a big factor there is not knowing anything about ACL2. I think the original solution I started with is (proven?) true as it's in haskell; but it'd "make new link" all over the place with params of an existing link. 17:57:53 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@171.24.223.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:01:41 I was thinking about something like setf but with different name, (modify (red some-color) 128) 18:02:13 or just MODIFY-RED or maybe RED> 18:03:29 Go with the COLOR-FROM-COLOR thing, or perhaps MAKE-ALTERED-COLOR, use keyword arguments, and have done? 18:03:30 I think some languages (Clojure and Racket come to mind) have their own constructs for expressing this 18:04:17 it's like LDB, ain't it? 18:04:22 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:04:23 nyef, I thought about that but I'm too anal about performance, as these would a be used _a lot_ in the inner loops 18:04:45 that's for the keyword arguments, I mean 18:04:45 So... inline it? 18:05:02 ... profile it? 18:05:12 The compiler can then realize that the keyword arguments aren't supplied, and thus do the default thing... 18:05:29 asvil [~asvil@178.121.41.137] has joined #lisp 18:05:33 That too, profile it first, make sure it actually IS a bottleneck. 18:05:39 that sounds good but how does it work with other systems than SBCL 18:06:10 if I'm doing millions of these operations per frame it's likely to be a bit of an bottleneck. 18:06:31 well, that's actually something I'd like to avoid but it's still a possible use case 18:06:32 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 18:06:40 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:49 There are systems other than SBCL? 18:07:12 There are systems that matter other than SBCL? 18:07:36 I know I know... but I'd still like it to somewhat work with at least CCL 18:07:44 there are systems other than SBCL where people care about performance? 18:07:55 and maybe CLisp, although that doesn't seem realistic 18:07:56 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:13 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:18 Just pretend that GNU CLisp doesn't exist. You'll be a lot happier for it. (-: 18:08:43 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:57 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:49 at some things the performance differences between different systems can be so huge that the whole portability between compilers argument just stops making sense 18:12:14 minion: Advice on portable? 18:12:14 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 18:12:28 Which is plain wrong. 18:12:37 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:12:40 It'd be great to have a page/resource that shows the degenerative extreme case performance difference between the systems via code fragments. 18:12:45 CLISP still has quite nice performance, iirc. It's the licensing issues and slime not being that well supported that do it for me 18:12:49 Probably can do same in either direction with garbage collection. 18:12:49 ask minion again, when he'll be doing the programming itself! 18:13:09 minion works only on sbcl 18:13:14 on linux, probably 18:13:26 schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 18:13:29 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 18:13:29 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:14:00 one of the most important lessons I have learned when working with CL is that testing your code on different platforms can have huge benefit on the quality of your code and understanding the language 18:14:03 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:14:12 and that's of course true for other languages and api's as well 18:14:50 for me it's a question of whether you're writing *library* code or *application* code 18:15:32 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:10 last time I tried CCL was roughly 2-5 times slower than SBCL, with ECL and CLISP being some >10-100 times slower 18:16:21 that's just one datapoint though 18:17:01 Flatlander: it's more interesting when you compare lisp to some other "production ready" languages 18:17:01 Personally I'm surprised by how badly ECL performs 18:17:13 define production ready 18:17:18 I've got a computer so fast that I don't see any speed difference between clisp and sbcl. 18:17:19 You can do different degenerate tiny tests that will make one a bazillion times faster than the other. Something with a lot of throwaway allocations/nothing kept will probably favor the copying GC. In a true mix of activity like in an app, they'll tend to pull closer together. 18:17:35 Flatlander: think "stuff used for new hip commercial/startup/whatever developement" 18:17:39 For example, Python 18:17:53 I mean the "stuff" that is considered "non-controversial" 18:18:17 p_l, sure, but the last time I tried Python some 5-8 years ago it was faster than CLisp for my purposes 18:18:19 AFAIK recent CPython was at least one order of magnitude slower than clisp 2.49 18:18:31 except that it has a lot of C libs 18:18:33 snearch [~snearch@f053003001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:49 pjb: you're not doing enough computations 18:19:03 Indeed, I'm a programmer, not a computer. 18:19:37 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:09 arcanis [~Mael@60.22.100.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 Modius, in something like games there can a lot of those degenerate tiny things per second 18:22:13 I guess you've isolated some gravely slow mutate case? 18:22:13 or in some cases the it's all ran on the gpu in which it doesn't really matter what compiler one uses 18:22:16 is it the right channel for emacs-lisp related questions ? 18:22:22 no 18:22:26 Try #emacs 18:22:26 try #emacs 18:22:43 ok, sorry :) 18:24:53 JVM is kinda interesting since it is supposed to have a state of the GC, at least that is what I have read 18:25:09 JVM's GC depends on implementation and its options 18:25:12 right 18:25:29 HotSpot GC tuning is apparently black magic involving human sacrifices 18:25:38 the default settings are just plain bad for interactive use, which was a bit of an surprise to me 18:26:02 Flatlander: the default in interactive use for a long time also used interpreted mode 18:26:50 when I was playing with Clojure that is. It took some studying to get anywhere near the SBCL speed with an equivalent code 18:27:03 of course Clojure probably had lot's other over, at least then 18:27:12 *overhead, that is 18:27:51 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:28:13 Flatlander: I heard that at least for some time it was a bit like LISP before Maclisp and co. got good at optimizing 18:28:34 with people writing macros instead of functions, creating a lot of unrolled code 18:29:05 me too, but I thought it was supposed to be fixed by '98 or something 18:29:58 I have never had any real gc problems with sbcl 18:30:16 you didn't try hard enough 18:30:27 and afaik the sbcl's gc isn't even supposed to be that good 18:30:57 stassats, I guess it depends on what kinds of problems you are solving 18:31:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-36-149.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:34 ebw` [~user@krlh-5f7252d7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:24 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:33 kilon [~kilon@130.43.40.58.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:34:16 most of what I have been doing with CL is in the comfortable middle between IO heavy server software and hard-real time applications 18:36:12 -!- ebw [~user@krlh-4d0372e8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:21 indie level graphics and game stuff. It doesn't matter if I occasionally drop a frame or too but I have never seen anything like a half second or more pause from the gc 18:37:15 Flatlander: can I see some of your stuff? Got some interest in game programming, and it seems I might finally get time *and* energy to do it... 18:37:27 Flatlander: is it 2d? 18:37:40 previously mostly 2d 18:37:49 tmp3145 [~nick@66.205.203.122] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 p_l, I'm kinda working on a new framework for all this 18:38:05 so, you're not flat anymore 18:38:25 how do I conditionally pass a keyword arg to a function? (is it possible w/o a macro?) 18:38:45 tmp3145: you can do it with apply 18:38:56 I had a few years of hiatus from CL but I got back since it really seems to fit my way of thinking the best 18:39:30 ah. thanks 18:40:29 I have always been of the opinion that CL paired with some good libraries could be a great platform for indie developers 18:40:36 Flatlander: how long have you been out? 18:40:45 (apply #'fn a b c (when cond (list :kwf arg))) ? 18:40:54 s/kwf/kwd/ 18:40:57 right 18:41:07 ehu: well, it seems someone made a bytecode generation tool for DVM 18:41:14 madnificent, I have been doing some stuff for about two years or so 18:41:21 *other 18:41:41 Flatlander: cool, was just wondering. you've missed quicklisp then :) 18:42:07 yeah, quicklisp is one of the best thing to happen to CL IMNHO 18:42:27 so. If you were using a parallel vector processing library, would you prefer (v:+ ...) or (v+ ...) ? More importantly, would you prefer to explicitly lift scalar values to vectors of replicated values or have that happen automatically when you call a vectorised function? 18:42:43 i would prefer v:+ 18:42:47 Flatlander: to my experience, performance only matters in some cases (most of the application isn't optimized for anything). so unless you're running a performance-oriented application, writing /common/ lisp does make sense. 18:42:48 -!- Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:43:38 pkhuong: v:+ as well. And probably automatically uplift, with some way of avoiding that when you know what you're doing 18:43:55 pkhuong: why not create two packages? one with the v+ name in it and one with the v:+ name in it. the v package should probably be named v by those using it (package-local-nicknames or something of the likes) anyways. 18:44:17 madnificent, it's a bit more difficult when writing a library as I wouldn't want to make some parts too slow by design 18:45:59 Flatlander: i can't immediately figure out which designs would be very slow on some implementations and very fast on others tbh. the design is generally high-level, so it either fits the purpose, or it doesn't. in the latter case it sucks regardless of the implementation. sure, you could discover that operations on a cons are slower in one implementation than in another, but in general i think it makes sense. 18:46:05 I would like v:+ and autoreplication 18:46:20 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C4F83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:46:36 and R interoperability :-) 18:46:45 Flatlander: as a side-note, the performance difference of jsown between various implementations is remarkably big. so you do have a point to some extent (though i don't know what the expectations on the platforms are) 18:47:02 anyway, I have basically divided the graphics side of my work in two, in one part I have IMAGEs that are easy to manipulate in several ways by using pure Lisp but are advertised as very slow. And then there are opengl TEXTUREs which you better not touch much on per pixel basis but are incredibly performant. 18:47:05 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-51.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:27 Kryztof: please write an R interpreter/compiler in common lisp (which interoperates nicely) so we have you on lisp stuff 100% of your time once again :) 18:48:03 Flatlander: that's a nice approach which seems orthogonal to the implementation you use :) 18:48:07 madnificent, I have run some basic test between CLisp and SBCL using some low level image manipulation and vector math code, and in general CLisp and ECL are both some 10-100 times slower 18:48:19 Flatlander: that's to be expected, i think. 18:48:40 Flatlander: SBCL is /really/ fast. and CCL seems to lie somewhere in between 18:48:47 madnificent, it's neat because one can always deprecate the software/lisp operations and move them up to the GPU textures when possible 18:48:59 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-211-106.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:15 wasn't Python compiler at least partially oriented regarding fast math? 18:49:30 (Python as in CMU/SBCL/SCL) 18:49:52 madnificent, You are right. I haven't actually done any benchmarking (as in the kind of operations that are important to me) but SBCL just obliterates the competition 18:50:09 <3 sbcl 18:50:12 p_l, it think so. And it shows 18:50:28 Kryztof: give me SAPs and we'll interoperate ;) 18:50:28 *done any benchmarking before. Silly me 18:51:29 CCL seems to be roughly on the same level as Racket and the other more performant Scheme implementations 18:51:48 Boring. 18:52:22 pjb, I know you like CLisp. Actually I do too. But in some cases performance is vital 18:53:09 I'd better hear here about the tools you wrote in lisp that let you write applications in 1/100th the time needed to write them in C++. 18:53:58 of course, but it doesn't help if the tools are unusable. 18:54:29 I wonder if the equation shifts if looking at Copying GC in Lispworks/CCL. . . . if the program is newing up more stuff and mutating less, and if it depends upon early eligibility for GC for passed parameters (i.e. the Lispworks at least, can release params earlier) 18:54:51 there is a huge difference in the user experience when comparing 10 frames per second to 60. It doesn't matter at all for some applications, but for some it does 18:56:28 there is a reason why we are still trying to make computers faster. and it's not just because it's cool. 18:56:43 madnificent: aren't faster computers hot? 18:56:54 they are real hot 18:57:20 although there's a trend to making more cooler computers 18:57:24 stassats: yeah, we make them faster so they generate more heat so it's warmer in thebasement. oh how i love the new AMD processors, they're so hot <3 18:57:37 Flatlander: see current discussion on fgfs mailing list. Jitter seems more important than fps. It would be better controlled by an incremental GC instead. 18:58:14 Flatlander: so more important than the speed of the generated code, you'd better work on incremental GC options for CL implementations (or even on incremental, multi-threaded GC!). 18:58:23 "Process inferior-lisp trace/BPT trap" with sbcl on osx (1.0.56.73-29fe19a) 18:58:26 pjb: i think that is irrelevant. fps will still make the game more enjoyable. 18:58:51 any ideas what could be causing this? i'm trying to load cl-gd from slime. from the bare repl, it loads ok. 18:58:59 H4ns: do you run something guie not in an initial thread? 18:59:19 well, there you go 18:59:39 madnificent: in flight simulation, I don't care if fps drops, as long as it doesn't drop below 10 fps, and it doesn't do it at the wrong time. 18:59:50 stassats: is what you say "you can't load cl-gd from slime"? 19:00:04 not from the repl thread 19:00:04 madnificent: consistent moderate fps is perceptually faster than fast fps that occasionally drops to low or moderate fps. 19:00:14 you can in from *inferior-lisp* 19:00:33 pjb: so, say that he now reaches 15 fps, on clisp he'd reach 1.5fps. so you do care about fps at a certain level. therefore, the efficiency (as in speed) of the generated code may be important. done. 19:00:36 wat? 19:01:05 *inferior-lisp* has the initial thread 19:01:16 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:25 madnificent: if for a certain load clisp can't reach the required fps, then it won't be used to run the load, as one wouldn't use a 8080 to run it either. 19:01:34 stassats: i understand, but i'd like to load cl-gd from the slime repl. 19:01:47 H4ns: then consider using a sane OS 19:01:50 pjb: right, so let Flatlander pick the implementation that makes sense to him. 19:01:56 stassats: *meep* 19:01:59 (Besides, clisp has a JITC, make it better, and clisp can be on the same order of speed as sbcl). 19:02:03 or not using threads for slime 19:02:10 madnificent: right. 19:02:12 stassats: can that be done? 19:02:37 madnificent, I'm not actually picking any specific implementation. In some cases the difference between SBCL and CLisp doesn't make sense 19:02:49 yes, by setting swank:*communication-style* to one of the supporting values 19:03:01 stassats: thanks, i'll try 19:03:24 for example, as long you can do your thing on the GPU and push the basic data to it fast enough the performance of the implementation doesn't matter 19:03:59 or if you do all you physics using a foreign library then the most important thing is going to be the speed of foreign calls 19:04:15 Flatlander: i got that. i simply disliked the discussion turning towards "speed is irrelevant". i've heard them often in the ruby world. guess what, speed is important. in fact, google is working hard to get their page loaded slightly faster than the competition because it feels better. even in the ms range, speed can be important. 19:04:47 everything is important when it's important 19:04:49 the amount of time spent coding might be more important. and if memory is an issue then a different implemantion may make sense etc etc. 19:05:00 madnificent, fully agree. But the whole topic is very complex and depends on the context 19:05:07 Flatlander: agreed 19:05:41 Eg. we terrorize young programmers with time complexity (and sometimes space complexity) of algorithm. Imagine an exponential algorithm on a graph with thousands of nodes! 19:06:27 for example, if you google gamedev and gc tips you'd probably find that most of the links are about XNA and XBox 360, which as far as I know have terrible GC and no JIT(?) 19:06:29 pjb: an exponential algorithm might still be done in 1ns ;) 19:06:37 yes, you don't need to care about complexity when monkey-coding some Ruby-on-Rails 19:06:47 at least not a generational GC anyway 19:06:58 stassats: not caring about complexity led to some hilarious Rails issues 19:06:58 or is node.js hip and cool nowadays 19:07:02 i can't keep up 19:07:03 Well, when I had to process a graph (of class dependencies) with 2000 nodes, I was quite surprized to get the answer of such an exponential algorithms in a few second. On current hardware. And that's the point: the size of the problems you can process nowadays is with no common measure with the sizes that were too big on processors twenty years ago. 19:07:06 stassats: actually, you do. i've ran into issues on occasion 19:07:38 stassats: thanks! :fd-handler works for me. 19:07:42 the pinnacle of speed issues seems to be drupal though. (to what i've heard/read about it, it may be wrong) 19:07:43 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:07:55 So perhaps google are optimizing nowadays 1ms out of a single request, but if you don't have 1 trillion request per day, it just doesn't matter! 19:08:25 ie. it only matters to google and amazon. 19:08:26 pjb: they want the page on the users screen in as little time as possible. it makes the user experience that much better, apparently. 19:08:47 i can hit seconds of run-time without shuffling big data 19:08:49 No, they want to spare on their energy cost. 19:08:55 and i care about seconds 19:08:56 Kryztof: http://paste.lisp.org/+2RYJ (: 19:08:57 pjb: no 19:09:21 They couldn't care less abou the user experience: the network bottlenecks ensure that their faster algorithm will make absolutely no difference for the user. 19:09:33 not true. 19:09:36 pkhuong: sweet 19:09:52 ignorance is bliss, they say :) and with that, i'm just heading out for a pizza :) 19:09:59 If they cared about user experience, they'd send back pages of less than a MTU! 19:10:13 lichtblau: I hope to do a new quicklisp within hours but cxml-stp is busted :( 19:10:39 Xach: yeah, well, it only does the trivial stuff that I know how to handle (: 19:11:04 It can only get radicaler 19:11:35 pjb: actually, there's actual research and papers published by google relating what they tested regarding time to user and what they could and did do (including violating IPv4) 19:12:02 *stassats* didn't listen to Xach and now his cxml-stp is busted too 19:12:40 pjb: mind you, the most extreme optimizations are for google.com homepage, not for various extra services 19:13:08 The one you never see, because you use the firefox search widget? :-) 19:13:28 pjb: the one that is default homepage for many :P 19:13:50 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129205081.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:51 Let's not talk about the default homepage of lusers. 19:14:00 pjb: they are the market 19:14:20 The many are using MS-Windows, and it's not google the default home page 19:16:00 fixed, thanks 19:16:38 pjb, when talking about desktop applications (and games) it's not very wise to ignore the many 19:16:45 *Xach* rebuilds 19:17:24 lichtblau: why don't just import the symbol? 19:17:24 Kryztof: on SBCL, (setf find-class) defines a type. On CLozure it doesn't. And if I understand Gary correctly, the implementation isn't required to do so either. 19:17:54 and yes, desktop is dead and all that but for really interactive web apps the situation for fringe languages isn't that good either 19:18:11 Kryztof: Now, on clozure it suffices to add a deftype, so that there are type and class. But that in turns breaks SBCL. 19:18:33 Kryztof: Can you suggest the right course of action (for user _or_ implementation) to resolve this in a nice way? Other than what stassats is suggesting, that is. 19:20:18 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.yhikad.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 19:23:39 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.41.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:25:06 anyway, I love how simple all the image manipulation operations turned out to be on my cl-vapor project 19:25:50 I have just functions that do all the basic Duff-Porter compositions so the user can easily define their own 19:26:26 patterns are just functions that take x,y coordinates and produce an color value, so they can be easily combined and defined 19:26:36 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.235] has joined #lisp 19:26:49 Porter is rolling in his grave 19:26:57 let'em roll 19:27:19 He sleeps there? 19:27:21 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053003001.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:27:55 tyson1 [~Ian@bas1-toronto06-1096637537.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:58 combined with cl-vectors and zpb-ttf I can easily produce textures, shadowed,blurred what ever images that are just waiting to be fed to the GPU for more processing 19:28:17 -!- tyson1 [~Ian@bas1-toronto06-1096637537.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 19:29:18 And I have to say that quicklisp makes it even more enjoyable 19:29:32 p_l: that's great news! where can I find it? 19:29:43 asvil [~asvil@178.120.214.92] has joined #lisp 19:31:20 Pyryhyry [valitalo@kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:33:59 -!- Pyryhyry [valitalo@kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 19:34:19 Joreji [~thomas@80-241.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:20 francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has joined #lisp 19:34:28 -!- Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:34:54 http://code.google.com/p/dexmaker/ <--- not sure yet of how heavy it would be 19:35:09 I had an idea about combining all this with CL-Javascript when it's finished (within the next ten years) which opens up some neat possibilities 19:35:14 unfortunately, no direct-to-memory loading, though I suspect there should be a way to get around it 19:35:53 ehu: still might require horrible GC tricks 19:36:14 but this + plus custom classloaders should make it much easier 19:36:31 wouldn't C be a better target for Android? 19:36:37 Flatlander: not really 19:36:52 Flatlander: unless you built a complex JNI bridge 19:37:03 like the one used by MonoDroid 19:39:19 I don't know, that actually seems like the easier way to do it 19:40:13 Flatlander: for Android applications that aren't games or certain specific solutions, or which have to run on pre-2.3 systems, you need to deal a lot with JNI, with all the warts of it and speed bumps 19:40:27 ouch 19:41:06 -!- rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.yhikad.vkhk.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41:14 so, how fast is pre 2.3 going to be paced out 19:41:16 in 2.3, you can access for the first time input queue and some sensors from C without breaking API 19:41:42 Flatlander: in a year I suspect most 2.2 hw will finally break down or get replaced 19:42:02 *p_l* will be probably still using his 19:42:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@80-241.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:42:20 If I target Android for anything, I suspect that I'll target 4.x. 19:42:34 nyef: welcome to your sub-1% market ;) 19:42:42 (Largely on the "if you've got it, flaunt it" theory.) 19:42:48 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has joined #lisp 19:42:51 kinda funny. Apple had all these idiotic issues with approved languages but in a way Android is even worse 19:43:34 Flatlander: a bit of that is related to how in embedded market the OS is tied to the vendor 19:43:40 p_l: I write software primarily for one person, who happens to have a 4.x device. 19:43:44 and the vendors want to sell new phones 19:43:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.66.148] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:44:27 what's worse, network operators, or rather the people responsible for such decisions, don't care 19:44:40 or have utterly stupid ideas 19:44:59 but this is not the channel for it 19:45:10 slyrus [~chatzilla@66-140-241-100.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:43 josemanuel [~josemanue@250.179.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:47:42 p_l: it has a pointer to the dalvik bytecode spec. that's a good thing in itself. 19:47:51 a great resource to draw from. 19:48:40 Question_ [3264c4b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.100.196.183] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 hello 19:49:04 I was wondering if anyone could give me some points as to why I would choose to learn lisp over c++ 19:49:38 Question_: because you want to. 19:49:46 I have android 2.3 and will likely have it for sometime to come, unless I lose it 19:49:57 mrbrown [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has joined #lisp 19:50:13 <[6502]> Question_: for what? 19:50:19 I hear that lisp is really powerful but I don't see it used that much 19:50:25 like industry wise and all 19:50:41 Question_: power has no relation on whether something will be used or not 19:51:01 yes you are right 19:51:04 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:13 then I should be asking, what do you guys use lisp for? 19:52:01 Question_: Building a mobile (tablet) sort-of "web app" for on-site reporting from "road warriors", integrating with OLAP database 19:52:01 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 19:52:19 you could buy a pile of Lisp books an prop up a free legged table, that's one use of Lisp 19:52:26 that's just the current project 19:52:28 interesting 19:52:29 three* 19:52:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@189.26.51.59.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:57 Question_: websites and various loosely related stuff 19:53:04 Guthur: Or you could arrange the three legs into a stable configuration in the first place, and use the books to prop up your monitor instead. 19:53:06 Question: graphics, gamedev and all that. 19:53:14 though frankly speaking, unless we use clojurescript, there will be probably rather small amount of lisp code... although that might suggest something about expressiveness of it 19:53:24 Question_: I use it to build apps to support financial and management controllers and other financial analysts in their work. 19:53:27 nyef: thats the flexibility of Lisp for you 19:53:31 and lisp is a functional language right 19:53:40 nope 19:53:41 Lisp works, if that's what you mean. 19:53:41 Question_: lisp is multiparadigm, we have it all 19:53:49 ^ what he/she said 19:53:50 minion: Advice on functional? 19:53:50 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 19:53:54 Aww. 19:54:08 haha 19:54:18 wow lisp is used everywhere 19:54:20 Question_: we have OO (and very fancy one) superior variables, and functional code where it's handy. really, lisp is awesome 19:54:22 minion: ask answer to answer to the question of the question 19:54:22 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 19:54:44 Question_: there are few places where lisp isn't a great language to use 19:54:59 minion: take all little rocks from the except the red one. 19:54:59 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 37 seconds is too many. 19:55:12 minion: sorry 19:55:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sorry''. 19:55:14 Question_: yet if you want to do it commercially, there are few places that are going to hire you for your lisping capacities. 19:55:17 Question_: yes. It's just that there aren't that many lispers, or environments that have the guts to use tools that aren't included in colourful managers' magazine 19:55:19 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-211-106.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:55:24 Flatlander: re: your comment about different in-memory image formats, one of the ideas of opticl is that it's easy to support different representations and to add new ones. 19:55:28 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 19:55:35 e.g. the ARGB8 thing you mentioned 19:55:37 ehu: such as ? 19:56:07 -!- Question_ [3264c4b7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.100.196.183] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:56:12 slyrus, I like what I see in it but I'd need a direct foreign ARGB8 that can be fed to the GPU 19:56:13 lichtblau: can you use the literal class itself as your type? 19:56:15 fe[nl]ix: there are few (as in: there are hardly any?) 19:56:39 Question_: there are places where CL will give you awesome results. Some other day you might find yourself with something requiring a proper prolog implementation. Another day it might be some crazily typed haskell 19:57:27 Flatlander: like I said, adding conversion to/from that from the existing rgba8 should be pretty trivial 19:57:34 perhaps he was trying to troll? would be odd 19:58:01 not sure if troll 19:58:29 slyrus, I'd rather not have any conversions at all. Thought in most cases it probably wouldn't matter 19:59:02 pkhuong: pretty good 19:59:02 you need to create the image from something, right? 19:59:59 slyrus, currently I'm using a foreign structure for all that 20:01:02 sure, there is a certain trade off between handling foreign memory or converting to it when needed but it probably depends a lot on the implementation 20:01:36 dnm: nudge 20:03:14 hitecnologys1 [~noname@94.137.16.36] has joined #lisp 20:03:15 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.16.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:22 and if I were to go with native lisp format a premultiplied alpha might be better in the long run if lots of operations were to done to them 20:03:24 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:19 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@187.105.3.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:07 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.96.76] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:05:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@66-140-241-100.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:05:38 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:58 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:07:13 since Infocom used their kindasorta Lisp/MDL variant has anyone ever thought about hooking the Minion up with Zork? 20:08:26 http://www.xlisp.org/zil.pdf 20:09:10 it's kinda funny that the first and most successful games for home computers were written in lisp 20:09:30 As one of the former botmasters, I can't say that I ever had. And as someone who has written a Z-machine emulator, and thus knows a thing or two about how the parser works, I can't say that I think it's too good of an idea. 20:15:23 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:15:28 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:15:30 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 nyef, fair enough 20:16:58 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:17:35 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 20:18:12 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@250.179.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:18:52 nyef, I'm sure I have seen it somewhere but you don't happen to have a link the latest version? 20:19:23 Latest version of what? 20:19:50 The bots, my Z-machine emulator, or something else? 20:19:53 the z-machine 20:20:08 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/pretzil/ 20:20:25 it would be a great way to test out some typography routines 20:20:34 For the rest of it, I'm afraid I've rather paged out the details. 20:21:26 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:17 http://ccxvii.net/gargoyle/ is supposed to be best at typography when it comes to IF, but I'm not really convinced 20:23:37 the justification just isn't right 20:24:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:26:45 Meh. I played these games on a 4.77 MHz PC clone. With a Hercules-compatible display adaptor. In short, these games aren't right unless they're using a fixed-width font. d-: 20:27:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:19 I used to play them on 0.985 Mhz C64 so I kinda agree 20:29:26 though I was more into Magnetic Scrolls games, being the graphics whore that I am 20:29:58 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:31:02 although my favourite first games were http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elWSyuQ8fDg and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1edvROHa8k 20:31:11 Combat was way overrated 20:31:49 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-198-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:35:06 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:05 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:36:22 Bike [~Glossina@207-225-94-191.ptld.qwest.net] 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:04:16 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 23:11:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:15:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-131-83.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:27 -!- Guest8020 is now known as shifty 23:16:36 KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.109.232] has joined #lisp 23:18:10 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-114-32.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:56 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:20:22 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:27 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:23:02 pnq [~nick@ACA24515.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:29 tried to compile movitz, with three different compilers now, everytime the same case of failure, cls failing ..... 23:29:01 must be something left undefined in the source itself..... 23:31:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.133.18] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.97.1] 23:33:52 -!- KDr2 [~kdr2@123.122.109.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-131-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24515.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:39:10 pnq [~nick@ACA24515.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:06 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:45:28 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:47:23 tensorpudding [~michael@99.32.62.98] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.16.36] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 -!- hitecnologys1 [~noname@94.137.16.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:09 hitecnologys1 [~noname@94.137.16.36] has joined #lisp 23:50:10 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.16.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:27 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:59 ozialien [~ozi@ip68-0-179-160.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:05 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:52:06 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 23:54:00 zophy [~zophy__@24.220.134.55] has joined #lisp 23:56:14 When I tried, I could compile it with ccl. 23:57:40 clojure ? 23:57:44 heh 23:58:05 clisp, cmucl, sbcl all compile it.... 23:58:06 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.144.190.58] has joined #lisp 23:58:35 load it and dump an image with it.... 23:58:58 it's just one function which seems to not find it's method...... 23:59:31 i don't know if it's due to the package itself which i assume it is, or the implementations thereof..... 23:59:58 something along pcl, loops, clos ......