00:00:07 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:01:07 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 00:01:28 -!- arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:04 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #lisp 00:02:36 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:30 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.149.222.185] has joined #lisp 00:08:26 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176430687.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:08:41 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:59 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.18.82] has joined #lisp 00:09:18 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 00:14:22 dnm: still there? 00:20:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:54 -!- ebobby [~fms@50-0-172-141.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:24:03 dnm: since this looks likely to turn into an endless game of highlight-tag, I'll tl;dr: Some time ago we discussed the issue of parsing C, though I don't recall what precisely your use-case was. My use case is the intelligent, fully automated (unlike CFFI or SWIG) binding of C, and I've just recently discovered the existence of libclang, which puts a mere yacc grammar to shame. It's got an incredibly convenient/powerful, and fairly stable, pure C API; I ... 00:24:10 ... strongly recommend giving it a look for whatever task you had in mind. 00:24:24 also, I love splitlong.pl 00:26:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:15 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:32:18 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:06 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:22 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:40 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:34:09 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176430687.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 00:35:41 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279584440.dsl.bell.ca] 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joined #lisp 02:23:16 I'm going to create a graph database application to find similar functions in a group of binaries. My idea was to use IDA Python to extract the call graph information from the executables and then use common lisp to perform the graph comparison algorithms. Has anyone had any experience doing this? Do you think lisp is right for that job or should I just stick to C++? 02:23:17 mel0on [~user@h-91-136.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 02:30:24 noumena: if you need to explore different approaches or iteratively improve your algorithm, and you are familiar with Common Lisp, then use it. 02:30:49 Otherwise, if you know exactly what and how you will code it in C++ and are familiar with it, then use that. 02:31:30 If you want more fun, then use CL :) 02:32:00 DataLinkDroid: Thanks. I do need to explore different approaches. That gives me the idea to do all the initial coding in lisp and then when I've found the approach I want I'll re-code it in C++ if speed is a big issue 02:32:09 I definitely want more fun and that's why I'd rather use CL 02:32:54 noumena: I doubt you'd get any significant speedup in C++ 02:32:54 Have you found compiled lisp to be comparable to C/C++ programs? 02:33:05 p_l: good to hear 02:33:14 noumena: within one order of magnitude, iirc 02:33:15 I'd much rather stick to CL 02:33:27 i would tend to agree with p_l 02:33:27 though of course it depends on what you're doing 02:33:36 *madnificent* wonders why people alwas assume C++ will be faster than CL. hell, why do people assume C is going to be faster than CL. 02:33:59 madnificent: because it usually is, but fast and wrong 02:34:05 unless the algorithm is simple and you are doing gazillions of analsyses 02:34:08 I'd be doing computationally expensive operations on adjacency matrices 02:34:18 the dev time will likely overshadow everything else 02:34:20 i assumed the same thing in the past, but i wonder where the indoctrination came from, there's no dogma which states that C encourages you to pick the right datastructures, and that seems to overshadow many other issues with code. 02:34:39 DataLinkDroid: that's why I want to stick w/ Lisp 02:34:47 stassats`: for simple bit-fiddling, yes. but for more complex tasks, i'm not so sure. 02:34:58 madnificent: with all things being equal, C will be faster 02:35:47 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:36:03 independent of how smug a lisp weenie you are 02:36:12 stassats`: all things being equal, you'll get the same amount of time to dev your C solution, as you have to get your lisp solution. 02:36:13 madnificent: I think it comes from C being the go-to systems programming language. Plus it's almost like high-level assembler so it does compile into very fast code. But maybe it's just because schools emphasize C more than lisp 02:36:23 (let ((120C '(prisoner))) (car 120c)) => prisoner 02:36:59 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 02:37:08 noumena: it's the assembly connection, I believe 02:37:15 noumena: i'd argue that C is the go-to systems programming language *because* it is like high-level assembler. 02:37:43 and people that had first contact with list either through a horrible university course, or through writing of someone who went through it 02:38:40 p_l: yes: i've heard numerous people bad-mouth lisp b/c some crappy AI instructor made them use it or they just got stuck using Java or something similar and can't get over what they're familiar with 02:38:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA36042.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:39:23 well, they need to find a scapegoat for they failures 02:40:12 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:19 given a particular algorithm for say, matrix manipulation, there is no way that Lisp would be computationally faster than the same algorithm written by hand in C. However, this assumes that (a) the algorithm is already known; and (b) the algorithm is simple enough to code in C without having to recode half of Lisp. 02:41:43 http://funcall.blogspot.com/2009/03/i-hate-lisp.html <--- good example of how bad a course can be given the initial mindset of a student ;) 02:41:54 DataLinkDroid: untrue 02:42:12 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 02:42:12 DataLinkDroid: there are many ways 02:42:14 DataLinkDroid: it depends on compiler 02:42:35 examples? 02:42:50 a) by using assembly routines b) by using a specifically crafted compiler 02:43:02 also, C compilers aren't the fastest when it comes to numerics 02:43:38 (Fortran got a headstart in optimization research) 02:43:50 stassats`: that's heroic :) 02:44:02 is it? 02:44:19 DataLinkDroid: GOAL was an example of lisp augmented with better support for the platform than C 02:44:31 at least the PS2 version 02:45:25 my understanding is that GOAL was essentially an assembler in Lisp 02:45:40 also, i wouldn't be so sure that C will always be better. given a crappy C compiler and a good lisp compiler, the lisp compiler might deduce more about the datastructure than the C compiler. hence, it could still be faster. 02:46:20 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:21 DataLinkDroid: AFAIK GOAL was an OO lisp with support for inline assembly code. that's vastly different. 02:46:52 madnificent: both inline assembly and inline coprocessor assembly (which would run on separate units) 02:47:25 And a compiler with a scheduler so that you could write code that would be spread over sevearl frames. 02:48:04 scheduler was also needed for the VU0/VU1 stuff 02:48:10 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:48:34 nice 02:48:41 madnificent: when comparing "C" and "Lisp", naturally we are assuming the choice of optimal concrete implementations 02:48:44 the previous language, GOOL (for PS1), would compile for both PlayStation and SGI Irix 02:48:55 and ones that actually exist 02:48:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:50:05 *DataLinkDroid* goes off to lunch 02:50:07 DataLinkDroid: and why would the optimal lisp compiler be less efficient with the correct optimizations? 02:50:24 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:50:32 if both are optimal and the code is optimal, they should produce the same assembly code. 02:50:56 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:52:38 -!- shifty is now known as Guest27814 02:53:04 this is all in theory, not in practice 02:53:22 araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has joined #lisp 02:53:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.84.85] has quit [Changing host] 02:53:23 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:55:16 where is that study about how long it takes to write code in C/Java/lisp and how fast the resulting code was. lisp came out good, iirc. 03:01:01 The difficulty there is normalizing for programming skill. 03:01:28 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-195-29.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:02:04 Lisp can be expected to have a selection bias. 03:02:16 I expect, for similar reasons, for unicyclists to score higher on IQ tests. 03:02:36 ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 03:03:24 http://www.flownet.com/ron/papers/lisp-java.pdf http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/verna.06.ecoop.pdf 03:03:44 i would think that you need an above average IQ to not jump on every new fad 03:04:09 (found them again through http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html 03:04:28 The limit of static code performance is probably determined by the degree to which you can express invariance. 03:04:42 CL isn't very good in that area. 03:05:06 C has limitations due to separate compilation, but it has less variance available. 03:05:09 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:05 Zhivago: they have link-time optimizations nowadays 03:06:37 Yeah, but at link-time you've lost a lot of information. 03:06:59 Zhivago: C isn't expressive. if you limit lisp to that level of being able to express yourself, the code could run just as fast. i see no reason why it couldn't. it may be so that the size of the image is inherently bigger in lisp though. 03:07:14 madnificent: C is expressive, otherwise you couldn't express things in it. 03:07:27 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:37 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07:44 Zhivago: C isn't as expressive (and i think you understood that) 03:07:47 madnificent: In any case, it's not a lack of expressivity that's the issue -- it's the amount of invariance you can express for static compilation. 03:08:13 This doesn't apply to non-static compilation, and javascript is doing well in that area. 03:08:35 Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has joined #lisp 03:08:36 But that's inferred invariance, and there are limitations there. 03:08:58 Zhivago: with macros, compilermacro-functions, inlining and rigorous use of declarations, you can give the same guarantees in lisp. 03:09:02 that magical silver bullet 03:09:20 We can expect javascript performance to improve considerably as javascript supports the expression of more invariance. 03:09:23 madnificent: "in theory" 03:09:28 anyways, i need to be up in three hours and a bit 03:09:33 and which would take the same amount of time as C 03:09:47 I expect that javascript performance will beat that of CL within a few years, and then become a serious competitor to java. 03:10:04 i can write very fast lisp code for sbcl, but it takes more time than doing it in C 03:10:17 stassats`: and in practice, i've been amazed at how good SBCL is at that. plus, C isn't necessarily making the smart optimizations either. plus you have more development time. 03:10:32 madnificent: Not so that the compiler can take advantage of it. 03:10:42 but don't take my word on it, read the papers. not that lisp comes out shining as a silver bullet either, it's worth noting that it's not necessarily that bad. 03:10:50 In practice too 03:10:50 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/performance.php?test=pidigits 03:10:55 those papers are worthless 03:11:28 -!- KognizantKog [~user@72.168.55.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:29 Ironically, we're moving out of the age of fast code anyhow. 03:11:32 Zhivago: the v8 team is complaining that speeding it further is going into SSC area coupled with precognition 03:11:37 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 03:11:54 though new EcmaScript standard could make it better 03:11:54 Zhivago: i can generate code which is inlined at compiletime. i can add declarations for the datatypes i want. it is not inherently so that C is superior on that front, it simply lacks ways of expressing yourself on a high level. 03:12:07 Cooler code is becoming more important for many applications. 03:12:25 p_l: That's the point; ecma is adding lots of support for specifying invariance. 03:12:58 -!- Kron_ is now known as Kron 03:13:04 -!- Kron is now known as Kron_ 03:13:15 madnificent: nothing what you listed makes lisp faster 03:13:23 I suspect that temperature control might end up being what shifts the balance away from static analysis. 03:13:26 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:13:42 holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has joined #lisp 03:13:46 stassats`: i didn't say that lisp will generate faster code when both systems are optimal either. 03:14:27 anyways, i'm out. 03:14:45 Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the question: "What are the situations where Lisp is not fast enough, today?". I suspect the answer will be a pretty short list. 03:16:02 loke: You're refering to CPU time. Programmer time is more expensive, and therefore more important 03:16:30 loke: and the parts where it might not be fast enough by itself might have surprising non-C solutions (which you can macro up) 03:16:32 "yeah, let's make this program freeze for 1 second, programmer time is more important!" 03:16:38 scombinator: That's a separate issue. I was commenting on people's arguments that "lisp is slower than C" 03:16:41 loke: The efficiencies lisp might give you in programmer time is offset by the increased size of the task 03:16:48 stassats`: sounds like daily happening in mobile world 03:16:53 jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:58 p_l: not only 03:16:59 or web 03:17:15 I don't think that most people making that argument in passing can actually write fast code in any language 03:17:25 p_l: or flash, except replace it "let's crash, programmer's time is paramount" 03:17:25 scombinator: I would expect that anyone on this channel would agree that Lisp is more efficient from a programming point of view than C 03:17:29 stassats`: Not everything is a desktop application. Having well-known downtime for databases for example, might be very acceptable 03:17:47 stassats`: funny thing is that flash has consistently better track record for me than fancy HTML5 03:17:53 loke: C and lisp do not encompass the totality of programming languages 03:18:07 I recognize when YT uses HTML5 player by whether the video is screwed up or not 03:18:33 loke: Besides if my problem is to create a simple GUI application I could imagine doing that faster in C 03:19:18 scombinator: for simple GUI app I'd go with Ruby/Python/C#/Delphi depending on available tools 03:19:25 (and platform) 03:19:57 accordingly: Qt/Qt/WPF|WinForms/VCL 03:20:45 If I had to do a "simple" one-shot gui application today, I'd do it in ABCL and Sing 03:20:47 Swing 03:20:48 though if I had ACL or LW license I might go with CL after all 03:21:04 i'd do it with cl and commonqt 03:21:49 stassats`: that's another possibility. Haven't got enough practice in CommonQT yet 03:22:00 p_l: it's like Qt, but better 03:22:06 Anyway. Time to go to work 03:22:18 stassats`: oh, sure. With Ruby or Python I'd just be scamming other people for code ;) 03:29:41 TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 03:31:01 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31:23 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:55 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:35:40 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:43 vinraec [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:29 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176431323.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:41:15 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:44:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 03:44:56 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:56 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.126] has joined #lisp 03:46:28 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:46:32 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:46 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 03:49:34 Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has joined #lisp 03:49:55 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:49:57 -!- Hussaind [~hussain@115.124.115.71] has left #lisp 03:50:32 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:53:05 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 03:53:47 -!- CrazyEddy [~alternati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:53:56 yates [~user@nc-71-48-9-61.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:22 pardon for repeating this question. what is a simple cl gui toolkit (besides gtk2)? 03:54:33 yates: commonqt 03:54:42 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:54:49 Garnet. 03:54:52 ltk 03:55:12 ok! lol! thanks! 03:55:24 ltk is very simple & requires very little in terms of ffi bindings. it's not as sophisticated as others 03:55:35 is cello out-of-service? seems the site is deprecated 03:55:46 garnet if you want to party like it's 1988 03:55:52 stassats`: ? 03:56:06 yates: do you want to party like it's 1988? 03:56:08 i think ltk was the one suggested before... 03:56:09 Nobody prevents you to implement skins and new widgets. 03:56:22 Anyways, you need to change skins every year! 03:56:49 Garnet is quite modern: it has support for gestures. 03:56:55 yates: http://garnetlisp.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html 03:57:47 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:09 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.94.42] has joined #lisp 03:58:13 thanks! 03:58:47 ql is a beautiful thing, btw! 03:58:54 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:14 I believe cello is dead 03:59:23 kenny might be too 03:59:27 :) 03:59:33 Ok so i'm trying to make a simple first version of a webserver watchdog. 04:00:02 scombinator: I recall hearing that cells, while awesome, are also annoying :) 04:00:25 The servers are running AllegroServe 04:00:36 pjb: gestures are quite old, just only recently showed up in "general" population. Same with tablet interfaces 04:00:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:00:42 I suppose I should search Quicklisp for such a thing first... 04:01:03 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:06 I think I first used gestures in an early Opera browser 04:01:11 p_l: do Qt or Gtk support them? 04:01:22 p_l: Indeed, I believe the V sign dates back centuries 04:01:48 but i'm 90% sure I will end up just writing this thing myself. 04:01:56 guestures have been around in CAD software for decades 04:01:57 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:02:00 pjb: no idea, but there was a generic gesture decoder library that could be added to anything that could track mouse 04:02:10 which was actually taken from some in-house CAD stuff 04:02:13 First question is, have the watchdog actively sent HTTP requests to the server being monitored, 04:02:18 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:02:36 drakma sends http requests 04:02:39 gendl: yes, so you need a watchdog watchdog. 04:02:42 emacs had somesort of writting recognition 04:02:43 Or have the server being monitored periodically "feed the watchdog" by sending an http request to the watchdog (or maybe writing a value to a file) 04:02:59 is there an existing way to combine yui3 functionality with weblocks? 04:03:07 i played with xemacs guestures 15 years ago alsa 04:03:11 also 04:03:27 allegro serve has net.aserve.client:do-http-request to send http requests 04:03:34 there's some yui stuff in contrib/ already 04:03:34 -!- wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-251-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:03:36 maybe start there? 04:03:48 yates, hop on #weblocks 04:03:59 ezakimak: i think i saw that - pretty sketchy, it seemed 04:03:59 although drakma sounds like something which should be pretty much standard issue these days - should be able to treat the whole web as a filesystem 04:04:01 right. 04:04:27 Yes, there will need to be a dog watching the watchdog 04:04:49 Who dogs the dog? 04:04:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-251-146.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:04:57 specbot: help 04:04:58 To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database is one of ("clhs", "r5rs", "cocoa", "elisp", "clim", "lp", "ieee754", "ppc", "posix", "man", "cltl2", "cltl2-section") and term is the desired lookup. The available databases are: 04:04:58 "clhs", The Common Lisp HyperSpec; "r5rs", The Revised 5th Ed. Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme; "cocoa", Classes in the Cocoa Foundation and Application kits; "elisp", GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual 04:04:58 "clim", Common Lisp Interface Manager II Specification; "lp", Bugs tracked on Launchpad; "ieee754", Section numbers of IEEE 754; "ppc", PowerPC assembly mnemonics 04:04:58 "posix", Single UNIX Specification; "man", Mac OS X Man Pages; "cltl2", Common Lisp, The Language (2nd Edition); "cltl2-section", Common Lisp, The Language (2nd Edition) Sections 04:05:01 So you have two coroutines 04:05:02 sorry 04:05:11 i have 3 server machines to deal with, so I'm thinking of having each pair of servers watch the watchdog on the 3rd one. 04:05:35 There has to be a "dead man's switch" aspect to this, 04:05:36 It's a problem I'm dealing with at work: a server that occasionally crashes due to freaky input I need to write an auditing dog for the watch dog. :-) 04:05:54 so that if the watchdog itself stops responding, something gets triggered 04:06:21 nagios? 04:06:49 yes, they have nagios installed on there already, also. 04:07:11 but i am not the one in charge of that. And of course i'd rather do it in Lisp to have full control of it 04:07:27 noumena: I wrote much of what you'd need to do that (export from IDA to CL, control flow graphs, some very crude abstract interpretation and dataflow) years ago, but I can't release any of it (previous employer..) :( :) :( 04:08:27 noumena: but, um, just buy bindiff? 04:08:30 -!- howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:08:35 -!- easyE` [Ek2IkdACZk@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:39 howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has joined #lisp 04:08:41 easyE` [ucWFy3jOo9@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:18 or do flirt signatures, depending what you're doing 04:09:19 *hefner* shrugs 04:09:40 yep, it looks like nagios is the "standard" way to do what I need... 04:09:59 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:10:18 I think I will make a simple watchdog in CL, then ask the sysadmin to configure nagios to watch my watchdog. 04:10:29 sad to see that nagios is the defacto standard "best" option for this stuff--it really is not very good 04:10:59 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 04:11:33 gendl: do you also need STONITH implementation? :) 04:11:34 well it is according to Wikipedia, but with a "by whom?" note next to the "is considered defacto standard" 04:12:22 well, Nagios is quite common for monitoring networks, but iirc you can do the same with OpenView and similar? 04:12:24 killing a whole server machine? I don't think so at this point. 04:12:43 you don't have to kill it outright, just disable services 04:12:57 I just have to kill a stuck process 04:13:03 pnq [~nick@AC824232.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:18 each server process is run by a "safe_start" shell script, which will re-start it automatically if it dies. 04:13:39 So all the watchdog has to do is obtain the PID of the stuck process, and issue a kill -9 command for it. 04:14:01 watchdog will send an http request every so many seconds, and if it doesn't respond within so many seconds, we kill the process. 04:14:05 gendl: well, STONITH is more of an extreme way of resolving split-brain condition 04:14:41 split-brain condition *is* already extreme 04:14:59 you have to pick one version of data to trust 04:15:00 we have 35 AllegroServe processes each running on a port 9001 through 9035 04:15:19 then a front-end process running on port 80 which is running as an URL-rewriting proxy 04:16:03 ezakimak: well, there are degrees of how you can deal with it. STONITH iirc pulled the plug on one machine doing a full reboot (through separate kill-switch) 04:16:06 to do some round-robin "load balancing" by sending each incoming http request on port 80 to a particular back-end port 04:17:01 each of the back-end processes is running a C/C++ solid modeling kernel thru uffi, 04:17:27 and with the current configuration, if a solid modeling operation gets stuck in FFI-land, the whole Lisp grinds to a halt. 04:17:57 it is these situations that we have to detect, and kill those processes when they become stuck like that. 04:18:31 of course trying to diagnose and prevent every possible lockup, but no matter what there will always be some risk of these lock-ups, so best to have a dead-man's switch like this... 04:18:58  wait, wait, genworks? ;) 04:19:11 yep, who's that? 04:19:21 *p_l* lols at not recognizing earlier :) 04:20:10 yep and Gendl is the new name for Genworks GDL 04:20:15 you heard it here first 04:22:41 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:23:04 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:23:22 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #lisp 04:23:50 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:24:12 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:19 Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 04:25:44 -!- hefner [~hefner@static-71-166-162-194.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Tell me when to go.] 04:27:19 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:27:36 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:29:54 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@med2c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:31:16 -!- vinraec [~vinraec@cpe-184-57-2-253.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:42:50 is slime homed in CVS or git now? 04:43:10 CVS 04:43:30 Just use quicklisp. 04:44:39 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #lisp 04:48:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:48:30 (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 04:48:50 And if anyone sees ^M in the slime-repl on Windows, let me know! 04:49:23 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 04:49:26 I had the problem a couple days ago, put in a fix which worked, then Franz told me they couldn't replicate the problem, then I rolled back my fix, and the problem isn't there any more. 04:49:32 I'm not a big fan of things which "fix themselves." 04:49:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-135.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:50:09 Speaking of Quicklisp, has anyone heard about a May release? 04:50:35 quick lisp news says he was hoping to have a release out by Sunday May 13 (maybe he didn't realize that was Mother's Day when he wrote that). 04:51:21 gendl: maybe Xach's mother is using Quicklisp and he wanted to make here a gift 04:52:02 asvil [~asvil@178.121.217.32] has joined #lisp 04:52:08 i'm trying to have :genworks-gdl in an unbroken state for the May release, but I just habitually keep doing git pushes with latest little tweaks and features now that we are in quick lisp I have to do more formal regression testing each month before committing around the time of a monthly release, 04:52:37 so it helps to know when those releases are going to happen... 04:52:57 (I know, if I were more organized I would have a static tar ball ready on the first of each month, and just ask Xach to use that). 04:53:16 gendl: _or_ you could commit to branches and merge stable states to your master 04:53:17 or a branch on git. 04:53:44 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 04:54:22 I'm not sure if Xach's mother knows he uses computers. 04:54:27 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 04:54:35 clhs list 04:54:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 04:55:13 good, /me merged the connecting guts of minion and specbot and added a config file for which channels to connect 04:55:40 when asked if his wife realizes how famous he is in the CL community, he answered: "Well, my wife knows I use computers. That's about all she knows about what I do." 04:55:48 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:55:49 Hi, for test purposes I have to emit some XML via Hunchentoot. Several years ago I used CXML ... is this still a good choice or did some new xml libraries came up? 04:55:50 or something to that effect 04:55:57 gendl: you can stop now. 04:56:08 krrrcks: cxml is cool 04:56:43 stassats`: what is the deal about the blank page when using lisppaste to post to a channel? 04:56:50 H4ns: Then I give it another try :-) 04:56:54 H4ns: "it's broken" 04:56:57 stassats`: it can't be the case that this cannot be fixed 04:57:02 I just use cl-who for emitting XML. 04:57:06 and i didn't fix it 04:57:19 stassats`: but but but! 04:57:20 :) 04:57:46 H4ns: well, i can't touch the current instance at cl.net, i don't have the rights to the screen session 04:57:58 stassats`: that i can help with 04:58:25 minion and specbot are almost ready to go back to cl.net, and then i can focus on lisppaste 04:59:40 gendl: Thanks for the hint. 05:00:22 Shame about the captcha, so much for submitting from emacs 05:00:59 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:03 yes - of course I would prepare the static tar ball based on a stable branch from my github. 05:01:11 scombinator: i potentially can add captcha to lisppaste.el 05:01:15 or some other mechanism 05:01:52 stassats`: you can log in as lisppaste now. 05:01:57 Xach said that while he will interface with github and svn repositories etc, he actually prefers just to be pointed to a static tar ball URL for grabbing the monthly discs. 05:02:05 dists* 05:02:29 fukushim_ [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:02:38 -!- fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:43 although its captcha is quite weak, i can hack in half an hour 05:03:00 stassats`: hpaste just skips the captcha 05:03:08 nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has joined #lisp 05:03:12 who? 05:03:40 did hpaste have a dos attack on irc servers? 05:03:46 and I plan to start using the Quicklisp monthlies as my only tagged releases, with the open source versions synced with customer releases, and monthly release notes directly tied to the monthly quick lisp. 05:04:01 stassats`: actually the captcha is trivial due to the alt text! 05:04:03 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 05:04:05 So among everything else, I consider that Xach is doing a great service by forcing that monthly cadence. 05:04:28 Otherwise my release schedule becomes chaotic and sporadic. 05:04:36 scombinator: indeed 05:06:13 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:06:55 H4ns: can't figure how 05:07:32 stassats`: ssh lisppaste@common-lisp.net - i added the sboukarev key (?) 05:07:37 oh 05:07:52 i thought you added access to the socket or something 05:08:14 yeah, that works 05:08:16 stassats`: if you tell me how to do that reliably, i can do it. 05:08:38 stassats`: ok, good. i guess that's the best way to do it anyway. 05:08:44 yeah 05:10:39 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 05:13:32 nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:14:18 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ygokvxbvzinsmmvo] has joined #lisp 05:16:39 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:17:08 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:17:28 42 LOC in, and I'm ready for this watchdog to start pinging the servers 05:17:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:37 H4ns: ok, that's fixed 05:17:50 so around the http client call, should it be (ignore-errors (with-timeout  )) 05:17:57 or (with-timeout (ignore-errors )) 05:18:16 (i-e (w-t ..)) 05:18:37 reasoning? 05:18:47 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:51 (w-t ..) raises an error on timeout 05:18:51 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:19:11 stassats`: but it lies! 05:19:17 the Allegro mp:with-timeout takes a timeout-body 05:19:24 i think it just executes the timeout-body on timeout. 05:19:31 Ah, I assumed (bt:with-timeout 05:19:38 stassats`: can i comment out the stuff referring to posting to a channel? 05:19:44 *stassats`* grumbles 05:19:46 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:19:47 bordeaux-threads? 05:20:01 stassats`: :D 05:20:06 Which is (bt:with-timeout (timeout) forms) => result of forms or (error bt:timeout) 05:20:12 gendl: Yes 05:20:17 that's not part of my standard compatibility layers yet 05:20:58 gendl: generic timeouts are not something that you can expect to reliably work everywhere 05:22:37 I know they don't work in the CL i'm using now if a process is stuck in foreign-function land! 05:22:55 there is the trivial-timeout library, http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-timeout/ 05:23:26 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.35.7] has joined #lisp 05:23:42 trivial-timeout: 6,883 bytes in 0.00 seconds (3360.84KB/sec) 05:23:57 ok let's use trivial-timeout for today. 05:24:42 asynch timeouts are evil 05:24:56 nikodemus: +1 05:25:05 it is very very hard to get code right using them 05:25:12 H4ns: done too 05:25:45 in fact much harder than writing a customized-to-application timeout facility 05:25:56 stassats`: it still lets me select a channel, but i'd gladly fix that myself if you're bored 05:26:00 -!- Modius`` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:26:14 async vs. sync timeouts? 05:26:29 async meaning that a timeout is running on a thread in an SMP lisp? 05:26:45 no 05:26:46 H4ns: well, let it select the channel 05:26:54 or users will become too confused 05:26:58 asynch meaning the timeout occurs in an unpredictable place and unwinds 05:27:09 it's the asynch unwind that is the root of all evil 05:27:16 let me find my ago-old explanation 05:27:29 nikodemus: it is the threads that make async timeouts really unpredictable 05:27:42 gendl: but it is 2012 and you can assume smp safely 05:27:47 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:27:47 stassats`: ok. 05:27:49 H4ns: i'll put everything back to normal soon 05:28:22 -!- jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:28:26 I do want this watchdog to send each HTTP client request on its own thread -- 05:28:29 http://random-state.net/log/3386927147.html 05:28:47 otherwise the whole watchdog waits while it waits for a single (possibly stuck) http request to respond. 05:28:57 gendl: "want .. thread" is often wrong. 05:29:33 i suppose it can do all the http requests in sequence. 05:29:46 it's only in the exceptional case that one doesn't return within milliseconds. 05:29:58 and for those cases, we have the with-timeout wrapped around it. 05:30:10 So I will take a word to the wise and do them all on the same thread, sequentially, for now. 05:30:15 gendl: why don't you use a timeout parameter in the http request? 05:30:20 gendl: in sbcl eg. with-deadline is a saner alternative to asynch timeouts. clozure cl has a very neat system of stream timeouts that is even better, and perfectly sane 05:30:52 oh why didn't I see the timeout parameter on the http request... 05:30:58 H4ns: thank you 05:31:46 *nikodemus* wants to steal the ccl stream timeouts for sbcl before the year is out 05:32:01 but my track record for "before the year is out" isn't the greatest... 05:32:07 :D 05:32:10 you didn't specify which year 05:32:14 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:32:14 nikodemus: good to have you back! 05:32:19 years tend to go faster the closer you get to the end of it. 05:32:32 by relative time passing perception, 2012 is about half over right now 05:32:33 and this year is a leap year, so you have better chances 05:32:36 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 05:33:17 and there's a leap second added 05:33:26 on jun 30 05:34:00 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:08 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:15 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 oh june 30 is going to be a productive day 05:34:55 it's also close to the summer solstice 05:35:13 so, get your hacking together, if you're in the northern hemisphere 05:35:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/129463 # H4ns, others, would you find use for this? 05:36:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:37:15 so: if I do (multiple-value-bind (result error-or-return-code) (ignore-errors (net.aserve.client:do-http-request  :timeout timeout))) 05:37:34 then error-or-return-code will end up as either the http return-code or an error object. 05:37:38 net.aserve.client? not drakma? 05:38:11 Modius`` [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:15 well i already have net.aserve.client in there, Gendl is still based around allegro serve (or paserve) and I'm not sure how soon that is going to change 05:38:41 well, at least it's not araneida 05:38:45 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 05:39:28 nikodemus: i'm not currently operating on that level, but that looks like a nice api 05:39:46 there are issues with paserve on SBCL (esp. on windows), so the decision for "before the year is out" is whether to get paserve whipped into shape, or port Gendl to be able to use Hunchentoot 05:41:21 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:41:22 i would not be surprised if porting the new version of allegroserve to other impls would be easier and give better results than trying to make paserve suck less 05:42:14 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-155-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:47 i can't say that anything involving hacking on aserve itself would be the sort of fun that i want to have. 05:43:00 no idea how much work that is compared to porting to hunchentoot, given that that is going to be highly application specific 05:43:02 using it is okay, but fear the open source. 05:43:10 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has left #lisp 05:43:39 well by "get paserve whipped into shape" I really mean "rewrite paserve to be in alignment with the latest allegroserve" 05:43:49 I don't expect anyone to do that for fun. 05:44:02 that would be something some one would do in anger 05:44:03 or for money 05:44:31 i'm trying to get some money into CLF to fund stuff like that 05:44:59 somehow I don't think a PayPal button on the paserve source forge page would go very far... 05:45:06 *H4ns* closes the tab with https://github.com/franzinc/aserve/commit/377f188932aa2ef76696e24c1d19880fb2c9f011, shuddering 05:45:18 getting money out of ALU for CLF is proving difficult. 05:45:28 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:29 They think I am trying to fund my own company's development with that money 05:45:34 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:16 so, as an ALU board member, apparently I am only allowed to undertake actions which cannot possibly benefit me personally or benefit to my company. 05:46:26 that's called "political correctness gone berserk" 05:46:33 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 05:46:35 *nikodemus* is glad to see #+#.(cl:if net.aserve::*with-output-to-buffer-can-grow-array* '(and) '(or)) there, actually 05:46:53 maybe aserve will soon depend on madeira-port :) 05:47:44 jjkola_work [c064748e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.116.142] has joined #lisp 05:48:26 nikodemus: that was about the wat-test line of code that i've seen in a while, in particular considering the recent discussion on pro@ :) 05:48:48 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:39 nikodemus: that #+#. thingie is in original allegro serve? 05:50:30 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-108-4-74-122.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:52:43 -!- scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:11 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:19 I am working on designing a interface/protocol which different packages could adhere to for a particular niche application. It's a protocol which doesn't really need objects, so inheritance isn't really needed. One idea I have is to use a duck typing approach, digging around in the package/external symbols and funcalling ones that match the desired interface. Another idea I have is simply to use defclass and inheritance solely as a method of dispatching betwee 05:55:39 I'm not sure of the best approach here. 05:58:22 -!- noumena [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/noumena] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:22 CrazyEddy [~intraneou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:03:01 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 06:03:05 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 06:05:18 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:07:22 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 06:07:36 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:07:47 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-72-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 06:08:14 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:11:24 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:12:12 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.50.152] has joined #lisp 06:12:19 gendl: yes :) see H4ns github/aserve link above 06:15:03 -!- Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:52 I see. And the #+#. syntax -- is that standard CL? or something just from Allegro, which can be provided by madeira-port too? 06:19:43 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-155-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:22:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:22:27 That is #+ syntax and #. syntax, I expect. 06:22:43 Which are standard CL. 06:23:50 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 06:25:08 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:25:53 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:26:23 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:26:58 Zhivago: thanks. i've seen them both, but never together like that 06:27:58 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:01 dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 06:28:10 morning 06:28:28 morning 06:28:34 ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:29:10 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.35.7] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:29:31 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 06:30:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 06:30:27 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.68.152.157] has joined #lisp 06:30:39 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:57 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eded.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC824232.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34:59 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-53.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:36:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@176-93-191-189.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:41:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.50.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:43:46 minion: here? 06:43:47 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``here''. 06:44:19 minion: memo for pnathan: just define the protocol in term of defgeneric (ie. use duck typing). 06:44:41 minion: still here? 06:44:56 *pjb* killed minion (*^.^*) 06:46:13 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:46:21 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:49 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:46:56 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:47:30 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 06:48:10 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.223.202] has joined #lisp 06:48:21 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:48:43 cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:51:36 Demosthenes [~demo@med2c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:53:51 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 06:54:28 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 06:54:49 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:55:39 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:03 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:38 mucker [~mucker@183.83.21.171] has joined #lisp 06:58:41 -!- tvaalen_ is now known as tvaalen 06:59:50 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-khdfvrsvjabxtpkc] has joined #lisp 06:59:58 -!- tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:58 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 07:02:41 nha [~prefect@f052066092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:59 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:05:20 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 07:05:23 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:05:23 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:07:48 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:43 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 07:08:45 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:10:37 ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has joined #lisp 07:11:40 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:14 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:14:17 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 07:15:34 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@med2c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:16:44 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:14 -!- arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:a800:4ff:fe00:a04] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:36 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:22:25 mathrick [~mathrick@176.97.27.149] has joined #lisp 07:25:04 kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:27:00 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:32:24 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:35:05 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:51 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-44-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:51 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-44-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:35:51 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:36:05 i'm trying to install quicklisp. i did ecl -load quicklisp.lisp and evanluated (quicklisp-quickstart:install). after downloading quicklisp.tar, i get a message "saying Cannot parse an integer in the string", and the install halts 07:36:46 lucky you, mine told me my libs exhaust the heaps always..... 07:36:50 actually * in the string "". 07:36:59 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:36:59 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:37:13 the website does say quicklisp is in beta 07:37:22 ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has joined #lisp 07:37:24 but beta implies at least working, right? 07:37:26 it is in beta since 2 years now 07:37:38 or almost.... 07:37:49 yes it works.... 07:37:56 how does one install lisp packages manually? 07:38:07 thru asdf ? 07:38:13 oh, right 07:38:23 or defsystem 07:38:26 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:28 mksystem etc... 07:38:43 if you have an older ..... 07:38:52 ...or load LOAD.LISP :) 07:39:20 I've seen it. Very elegant. 07:39:25 not. 07:39:27 adnap: why are you trying to use ecl? 07:39:53 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:40:00 H4ns: because there is an ecl patch that allows ecl to target android 07:40:36 adnap: so your goal is to write android programs in common lisp using ecl? 07:40:50 H4ns: yep 07:41:49 adnap: 1- report your error to Xach. 2- use another CL implementation to install quicklisp. Then you may use quicklisp with ecl. 07:42:03 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:42:16 pjb: okay 07:42:52 adnap: what libraries do exist for android interaction? I'd like to try to get some sensor data ... 07:43:25 flip214: none that i know of. the guy who made the ecl patch is working on an interface to java though 07:43:46 thanks, then this way everything would be available. 07:44:00 perhaps the abcl way would be easier, though... 07:44:22 flip214: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5683543/lisp-and-android-ndk 07:44:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:44:25 oops 07:44:31 flip214: this one: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.ecl.general/8306 07:44:37 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:44:42 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:10 my plan is to write a lisp program, compile a binary, and then invoke it from a java program 07:45:31 adnap: thanks 07:45:36 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:45:43 but that is far off. i don't even know much lisp yet 07:46:04 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:46:05 i really just want to get some experience in lisp 07:46:45 hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.18.82] has joined #lisp 07:46:49 Write a lisp program to write "Hello, world." 07:46:55 Then complete the remainder of your task. 07:47:21 adnap: when you want to learn lisp, why don't you skip the android and ecl stuff for now and choose something that you can actually use? 07:47:37 adnap: if you want to call your lisp program from Java, it would be easier if you used abcl or clforjava. 07:47:46 H4ns: i would consider that. i was just trying to kill two birds 07:48:02 adnap: two big birds to try to kill at the same time. 07:48:20 why is ecl a pain? 07:48:44 adnap: it is not a pain, it just has a relatively small user base. 07:49:02 ecl got much better in the last year, though. 07:49:09 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-1-110.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:12 flip214: as i said. 07:49:23 Hi, guys! 07:49:26 ecl is nice, to be called from C or C++; abcl is nice, to be called from Java. 07:49:30 pjb: i also need to use verrazano 07:50:01 pjb: abcl runs in the android java environment? 07:50:04 actually... 07:50:10 No, I mean jvm. 07:50:34 sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:51:05 pjb: "android" was the desired platform 07:51:20 Yes, my mistake. 07:51:41 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:52:28 Could someone tell me the difference between + and * in global variables? I can't google as it ignores all the special symbols. 07:52:30 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 07:52:50 hitecnologys: http://lispdoc.com/?q=%2B&search=Basic+search 07:52:51 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@253.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:53:35 +xx+ is for constants. 07:53:46 It is a convention only. 07:53:57 H4ns: "Sorry, no results were found." 07:54:50 Zhaivago: thanks. 07:55:02 Notably, one that CL doesn't respect: PI, CHAR-CODE-LIMIT, etc. 07:55:19 But it's better to respect it in general. 07:58:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:22 benny` [~benny@i577A16DF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:28 -!- benny` is now known as benny 07:59:57 echo-are` [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 08:01:04 -!- nha [~prefect@f052066092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:01:06 howeyc_ [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:01:25 Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bwwehmxwfhaqicbr] has joined #lisp 08:01:39 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:03:05 -!- Tordek [tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:03:05 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:03:05 -!- howeyc [~howeyc@2607:f2f8:a958::2] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:03:05 -!- snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:03:05 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:03:12 kanru_ [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:52 -!- Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:04:53 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:22 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:12:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:35 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 08:13:42 -!- lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:13:56 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 08:16:36 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 08:17:06 muha [menchauser@88.200.167.185] has joined #lisp 08:17:06 wccoder [~wccoder@S01060026f3c6bad7.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:25 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.21.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:17:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:18:10 thom_ [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:24 mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has joined #lisp 08:20:37 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-173-60-243-134.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:20:58 Siphonblast [~Siphonbla@c-98-210-95-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:50 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:23:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:26:10 CL constants have the privilege of being in common-lisp package, and cannot be modified 08:26:35 but yes, do use pluses around them 08:28:51 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 08:29:00 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:24 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.68.152.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:32:45 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:22 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:35:35 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:38:33 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:46:20 -!- DataLinkDroid [~David@1.149.222.185] has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:47:19 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.18.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:48:54 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:49:16 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:49:45 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:24 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:40 -!- Vivitron` [~user@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:37 Vivitron` [~user@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:15 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 08:57:19 nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-215.math.tu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:28 jdz: can't any symbol be a constant? 08:57:32 and hence any package have them? 08:57:38 vsync: yes. 08:58:03 Once you've defined a symbol as a constant, it cannot be modified, whatever the package it is in. 08:58:04 afaik keywords are the only thing that have special packages out of the box 08:58:17 But you can unintern it from your own package ;-) 08:58:39 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:58:59 vsync: you can still unintern symbols from the keyword package, but I'm not sure that wouldn't awake some dragon. 09:01:08 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:01:43 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 09:02:02 |SLB| [~slabua@host239-212-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:02:32 *vsync* avoids the temptation to screw around with read, eq, and unintern and instead goes to tv and bed 09:02:52 been working for 14hrs or some such 09:02:55 great day though 09:03:29 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:11:09 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:15:24 zh [~zh@222.64.150.229] has joined #lisp 09:23:38 Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 09:27:52 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:55 treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has joined #lisp 09:29:40 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:29:57 -!- |SLB| is now known as [SLB] 09:30:04 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host239-212-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 09:30:04 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:30:34 -!- harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:30:40 NoobNoob [NoobNoob@cm114.eta241.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:31:48 Does anybody know if there is something similar to 4clojure . com for common lisp? 09:31:49 -!- zh [~zh@222.64.150.229] has quit [Quit: ] 09:32:11 I guess I could just use Project Euler 09:32:54 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:34:18 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:25 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@office-gw.skytel.spb.ru] has left #lisp 09:38:13 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:39:56 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:40:59 malaparte: you could try the debian language shootout, too 09:48:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:49 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:54:37 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:33 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:58:26 cl-ppcre only returns single results for each start position, right? so "a123b" with RE "((\d)+)+" gives only a single match. is there an option to get _all_ possible results? 09:59:01 ppcre:all-matches 10:02:20 kennyd: no, doesn't work. the exponential blowout isn't here, I only get "match from 1 to 4". 10:02:49 Please note that I had a nested repetition... 10:03:08 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 10:03:54 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:04:42 flip214: what did you do, what did you expect, and what did you get? 10:05:13 jdz: (cl-ppcre:all-matches "((\\d+)+)" "a123b56") 10:05:15 flip214: I don't think that's ever made it outside of academia. There's a couple papers from the scheme community that describe how to succintly represent all possible parse trees for a regular expression. 10:05:37 I expected what I got - (1 4 5 6) or something like that. 10:05:51 just want to know whether there's a way to get _all_ possible matches. 10:06:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:06:46 although that might need a callback, a CPS transformation or something like that ... 10:07:05 just wondered whether I'm overlooking something. 10:07:15 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:07:21 flip214: that'd be pretty bad. You can be smart and reuse tree nodes to save an exponential amount of space (and time). 10:07:54 why couldn't I save that with a callback? 10:08:01 i'd guess the regular experssion matching to return only the first successful match 10:08:19 flip214: I don't see how a callback would be useful, except to be called on each potential match. 10:08:33 pkhuong: exactly, that's what I meant 10:09:20 flip214: that's very many. Parse DAGs let you process them in potentially much less time and space by explicitly fusing equivalent sub-parses. 10:10:53 pkhuong: Last time I looked at it D's "alternative" runtime implemented it. 10:10:59 We seem to be talking past each other. If a callback gets eg. *start-pos* and *end-pos* (I think that's what it's called now) as special variables, why would it be inefficient? 10:11:25 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:11:38 flip214: there are exponentially many such matches. Plus, pcre specifies longest matches (not that many engines implement that correctly either), so you won't get all of them. 10:12:03 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:12:10 http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/docs/stable/tango.text.Regex.html 10:12:31 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:45 Well, I just envision something like a depth-first search ... where the "callback" can explicitly cut off search trees (perhaps only at the end by using "return-from", but still) 10:14:11 Well, unless you're *only* interested in the matched string, and not the capture groups, in which case you can hack something pretty quickly with ppcre's regular interface. 10:15:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has joined #lisp 10:17:57 -!- tr-808 [brambles@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:19:31 harish [~harish@155.69.194.135] 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[~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:40:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:40:52 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:43:02 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 Does anybody know is there build-in function to compare list ignoring elements order or I must use set-difference and write it myself? 11:45:45 by myself 11:45:49 -!- mucker [~mucker@202.65.155.202] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:46:32 You could use the magic of sorting. 11:46:39 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@mailout.faxonline.at] has joined #lisp 11:47:06 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@mailout.faxonline.at] has quit [Client Quit] 11:47:44 I know, but does It decrease speed or not? 11:48:20 hitecnologys: in the general case, set-difference takes time quadratic in the length of the lists. 11:48:26 -!- theos is now known as Guest24680 11:48:30 Oh 11:48:36 Your implementation may or may not implement special cases. 11:48:41 Okay, better use sorting. 11:48:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:50:36 -!- Guest24680 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:52:31 hitecnologys: No need to write it yourself. Use FSet. It can compare sets/bags in linear time. 11:52:54 hitecnologys: http://common-lisp.net/project/fset/ http://common-lisp.net/project/fset/Site/FSet-Tutorial.html 11:53:23 That's if your data types are actually sets :) 11:53:42 Yeah, they're mostly like sets. 11:56:07 I'm trying to implement key binding system in a game and in order to add support for key for something like shortcuts I need sets. That will look like a hash-table with sets as keys and functions as values. Is this a good way to do it? 11:58:28 nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:00:11 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:45 hitecnologys: so, what's wrong with using a hash table? 12:00:53 hitecnologys: Maybe just table from keys to functions? 12:03:16 mrbrown [~andy@82-196-173-37.bb.systeamnat.se] has joined #lisp 12:06:34 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-201-216.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:07:08 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-201-216.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:08 hitecnologys: yes, that's a good way to do it. 12:07:45 hitecnologys: you can use the EQUAL or EQUALP hash table tests to support things like (control #\x) 12:09:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:54 graspee [~graspee@02dd1c10.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:05 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-134-12-173.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:12:09 zanoni [quassel@nat/indt/x-aykabfgeejbzxqta] has joined #lisp 12:13:00 hi! im trying to run an old code of mine, but when i try to load antik, the compilation fails, cause it cant find an ffi.h header 12:13:10 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:12 i dont remember where does that belong 12:13:17 Sorry I was afk. 12:14:16 pkhuong: All good, but I don't know how will it affect on performance. 12:14:34 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128058171.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-1-110.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15:01 hitecnologys: I don't think there are better options. 12:15:37 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has joined #lisp 12:15:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zlylrrrhcoeimfqh] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:54 wahjava [~wahjava@fsf/member/wahjava] has joined #lisp 12:16:14 -!- mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:18:26 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nogxbtkdfruqiljp] has joined #lisp 12:20:06 hitecnologys: if you compare these sets of keypresses a lot, interning them so that equivalent sets are EQ can help. 12:20:42 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128058171.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:22:25 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002128058171.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 12:24:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:42 any ideas? 12:27:43 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:29:06 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jyjdveflwndddgdb] has joined #lisp 12:29:40 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:44 -!- xyxu [~Adium@58.41.12.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:33:28 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA123E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:23 -!- tresta [~narog@s213-103-192-37.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:46 jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has joined #lisp 12:36:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-233-56-218.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:51 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:12 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:28 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:42:33 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:43:15 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 12:43:15 -!- OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Client Quit] 12:44:13 gfd [~VREW@67.221.255.12] has joined #lisp 12:44:15 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:44:37 VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.6] has joined #lisp 12:45:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:45:30 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:46:09 hitecnologys: are you trying to implement multi-key commands? 12:46:35 xnxx 12:46:43 hitecnologys: like prefix x y z -> whatever? its been invented 20 years ago by every editor out there.. ie emacs keymaps or such... 12:47:04 -!- gfd [~VREW@67.221.255.12] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:34 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 12:48:24 just make a alist, human typing is really slow comparing to CPUs... If you really concerned about performance, make it a hashtable.. When key is prefix, it will contain another hashtable, and so on. Keep a list of "stuff typed so far", which will be path from root until the last matched prefix.. 12:48:46 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:48:58 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 12:52:31 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:15 (defun process-keystroke (key) (let ((binding (assoc key *current-map*))) (or key (error 'ding)) (etypecale binding (consp (setf *current-map* binding)) (function (setf *current-map* *root-map*) (let ((*last-command-key* key)) (funcall binding)))))) 12:53:22 something like above 12:53:40 -!- nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:54:50 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:55:17 maxm-: can you help me? where does this ffi.h belong to? 12:55:24 metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 12:57:03 mcstar: sorry no idea, never used antic. check it source directory, is ffi.h there? looks like maybe its messed up by being loaded with quicklisp. 12:57:36 i thought it must be a system wide file 12:58:13 mcstar: ffi.h sounds like something that would be part of antik, because ffi is usual abbreviation for "foreign function interface" in lisp 12:58:49 i know that much, i thought maybe it comes with sbcl or something 12:59:00 obviously it doesnt, thanks, ill keep looking 13:01:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.5.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:02:33 -!- metaphysician [~matrix@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03:45 there seems supposed to be some libffi.so which fsbv depends on, which antik depends on 13:03:51 mcstar: I'd say libffi. Antik might depend on fsbv or some other package that used to work around old cffi's lack of support for struct function arguments/return values. 13:04:27 msimoni [~m@188-22-213-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:05:11 this http://sourceware.org/libffi one? 13:05:20 because i have that installed 13:05:43 yea looks like it 13:05:46 mcstar: do you have the dev package installed as well? 13:05:55 /usr/lib/libffi-3.0.11/include/ffi.h 13:06:07 maybe the -I is not set 13:06:36 ok guys, now i something to work on, thanks 13:06:36 snearch [~snearch@f053001018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 i have* 13:06:57 hmm i would say maybe it forgot to install itself? Usually libraries that intend to be included as #include install their headers into /usr/include 13:07:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:07:39 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:41 well, it is from Arch's core repo, so probably a scrutinized package 13:07:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 basically either find where the compilation happens from, and add libffi include path in there, or just do it with a sledgehammer and sudo su -; cd /usr/lib/; ln -s /usr/lib/libffi-whatever/include/* . 13:10:42 *maxm-* used to remember a way to modify gcc default system directories list, but had forgotten it 13:10:49 im looking for the config file of fsbv 13:11:22 -!- kilon [~kvirc@178.59.17.196] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:11:40 -!- harish [~harish@155.69.194.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:12:14 madmuppet006 [~madmuppet@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:12:22 anyway, I would not consider a library whos header file is not available in standard include path, to be correctly "systemwide installed". Maybe it has corresponding libffi-devel package? like opensuse likes to have? 13:12:51 arch doesnt have separate devel packages 13:13:08 maxm-: pkg-config is there for you 13:13:14 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:13:26 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:27 assuming it is configured properly 13:13:44 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:57 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:02 -I/usr/lib/libffi-3.0.11/include -lffi 13:14:08 *maxm-* notices linux is growing more complex then windows nowadays.. I don't understand how half the stuff works now :-\ 13:14:10 thats what pkg-config says 13:14:10 gcc  `pkg-config --cflags somelib` 13:15:01 -!- Guest27814 [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:15:02 just recently went through trying to get stumwm working with auto-mounting inserted usb-disks in /media.. After like 5 hours of googling found the solution, and I have google-fu 13:15:36 maxm-: how did you install google-fu? 13:15:44 XD 13:15:46 had to touch freedesktop, dbus, consolekit, policykit, session manager, and somethign else 13:15:51 mcstar: with clue-by-four 13:15:54 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 maxm-: at least part of that is cancer 13:16:38 for the curious, one is supposed to do ck-launch-session dbus-launch ./whatever-run-your-xinit for the dbus magics / policykit stuff to work 13:16:48 maxm-: It's mostly ok until you try to touch systemd, udev, initrd... 13:16:52 oh, you didnt know that? 13:17:13 oh yea, something else was "udev rules" 13:17:32 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:37 maxm-: drop ck-launch by dropping the turd caled consolekit, and "export `dbus-launch`" in ~/.xinitrc or equivalent works good enough 13:17:46 anyway, the auto-mounting of removable media as user, the command line thing that does it is called udisks 13:18:06 but it requires above session setup, for it to correctly use dbus/policykit 13:18:13 p_l: i recon you need consolekit otherwise you cant even shut you system down wo root access 13:18:28 mcstar: ... CANCER, I SAID 13:19:03 -!- madmuppet006 [~madmuppet@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:22 Guest27814 [~user@114-198-37-54.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:20:27 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:20:56 #+linux 13:20:58 (cc-flags "-I/usr/lib/libffi-3.0.10/include") 13:21:05 and i have 3.0.11 13:21:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 13:21:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:21:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:22:11 this is from a file in fsbv, called libffi-unix.lisp, and the header says CFFI-Grovel definitions for unix systems. 13:22:22 is this supposed to be autogenerated? 13:22:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:39 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 13:22:42 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:22:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:22:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:23:11 aham 13:23:32 thats from a previous version, from yesteryear, in the new one, i dont see that cc-flags 13:24:33 Radium [~rajesh.na@117.203.14.240] has joined #lisp 13:25:09 GREAT, antik is loaded 13:25:25 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:25:35 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:51 LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #lisp 13:26:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:27:08 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 Devon [~devon@vm1.lumi.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:26 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 13:29:44 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has left #lisp 13:34:24 Hi all. Can generic function have local name? 13:34:28 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 asvil: local name? 13:35:31 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 13:36:29 yes 13:37:31 what do you mean by local name? 13:38:04 loke: Maybe lexical variable? 13:38:17 cltl book contains these terms: local and global names. 13:38:42 asvil: generic function is a function, you can bind it to a variable and use FUNCALL/APPLY 13:39:06 Good morning Lisps. 13:39:08 there is no such thing as generic-flet or generic-labels (by analogy to flet or labels) if that is what you're asking 13:39:39 ChibaPet: Good morning! But for me it's evening. =( 13:40:48 Sorry, I should have said, good oodUGT morning. 13:41:10 Or soemthing like that without the lag-induced typos. 13:41:53 jdz: I understand. And what about names? 13:41:58 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-khdfvrsvjabxtpkc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:11 asvil: the name is a symbol, right? 13:43:21 asvil: anyway, it's hard to figure out what you want 13:43:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:30 asvil: you should try explaining that, first 13:43:43 asvil: cltl is not exactly the standard implemented by modern CLs. 13:43:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:45:09 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-180-211-142.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:45:38 local name for function is name for function made by flet 13:45:54 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-211-142.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:44 asvil: flet doesn't make local names for existing functions, it defines local functions. 13:46:51 Looks like hitecnologys was right btw :) 13:47:59 =D 13:48:15 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:32 asvil: There is no way to define a new generic function with flet and you can mimic local name for existing genericc with defsymbol-macro. Maybe there are better ways. 13:49:13 but we will never know because asvil does not tell us what he wants to achieve 13:51:42 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jyjdveflwndddgdb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:52:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:07 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:57:38 -!- antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:58:29 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 13:59:05 antifuchs [foobar@care.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@183.62.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:05:57 leo2007 [~leo@222.130.129.194] has joined #lisp 14:06:34 alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02cd92.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:45 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:11 any ide ahow to make #\| cease to be the character that makes symbols whose name is between the |'s? 14:07:26 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has joined #lisp 14:07:27 i've looked around some with set-macro-character, etc., but i can't seem to figure this out 14:08:00 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:08:41 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-shrqlnwimgyafufa] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@177.103.136.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:12:23 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-153-3.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:12:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:12:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:12:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:13:14 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #lisp 14:14:03 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:19 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:14:19 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 14:14:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-243-231.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:14:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 hmm, set-syntax-from-char might do the job 14:14:47 (set-syntax-from-char #\| #\a) 14:15:27 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #lisp 14:15:32 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:46 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #lisp 14:16:27 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:17:13 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 14:17:28 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:35 kilon [~kilon@178.128.80.44.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:22:17 alama: yes. 14:23:22 What's with people wanting to make weird reader changes this week? 14:23:39 asvil: (defgeneric f (x)) (flet ((local-name (x) (f x))) (local-name 42)) 14:24:08 Fade: I don't know, perhaps he has to deal with pipes? 14:24:21 pjb: thx 14:24:27 (defun ls|grep () ) ? 14:24:43 that looks like a false economy to me. :) 14:25:11 -!- holycow [~fekoff@69.172.160.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:26:13 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:27:27 Yes, there are so many vertical bars in unicode  14:27:59 i have to deal with a logic program that uses "|" as a disjunction sign 14:28:11 everything else is ok 14:28:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:18 just "|" has to be dealt with 14:28:27 alama: #\| is a multiple escape character, another option is to single escape it: (symbol-name 'ls\|grep) -> "LS|GREP" 14:28:44 -!- dropster [~Kim@port284.ds1-oebr.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:29:06 alama: it's ok to change the readtable used to read user data. 14:29:26 it seems like the natural approach in this case 14:29:30 Yep. 14:30:49 it's a bit annoying though because slime thinks that i've got unbaldnaced parentheses in things like: (case x (| )) 14:31:46 i might need to switch on the name of the symbol 14:31:54 plain old CASE might not be right anymore 14:32:29 Or better teach slime to deal with readtables. 14:33:09 does slime know about the readtable? 14:33:30 alama: how about (case x (\| ...)) 14:36:09 -!- TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has quit [Quit: Restarting client] 14:36:47 TDJACR [~TDJACR@lilug/member/tdjacr] has joined #lisp 14:38:04 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:04 Is this room mainly for Common Lisp? 14:38:16 georges_: yes :) 14:38:22 entirely, actually 14:38:57 I keep hearing that CL is not being worked on anymore. I'm wanting to learn lisp and Common looks to be the one I want to do but I worry about stagnation I guess 14:39:11 its basically a dead language 14:39:16 I'm still working on CL. 14:39:18 Not sure where you heard that 14:39:23 but it's entirely wrong 14:39:27 lisp is dead! 14:39:37 does anyone use lisp modules/script with blender here? 14:39:40 I even work *in* CL. 14:39:52 I don't think lisp is dead. I see a lot of traction for Clojure and a little for Racket 14:39:55 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:40:05 But it's nice to see a large community for CL :) 14:40:06 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 14:40:10 *mcstar* was flaming 14:40:18 Oh lol 14:40:19 :D 14:40:19 well, I'm not sure about "large" 14:40:32 where's all our toxicity people! you're forgetting who you are! 14:40:40 I guess I mean relatively large to what I was expecting 14:40:50 I think faking toxicity can be as damaging as real toxicity 14:41:08 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:41:36 Has anyone read the Land of Lisp book? 14:41:46 skimmed it a while ago 14:42:11 jdz: \| did the job 14:42:13 thanks! 14:42:28 dekuked [~user@pool-108-20-217-59.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 alama: are you sure symbols are the right tool here? 14:43:07 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:01 ^^^ 14:44:05 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.41] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 pkhuong: well, i think so -- my data is essentially lisp (it is produced by a lisp system, http://www.cs.unm.edu/~mccune/ivy_check_prover9/ ) 14:44:55 georges_ many have. practical common lisp book is also often recommend. it's available for free 14:44:59 the vertical bar is the only hiccup in the whole deal 14:45:21 so i'm somewhat reluctant to switch out to something else just because of the vertical bar 14:45:41 i would rather not write my own parser; 99% of it would just be READ-FROM-STRING 14:45:48 Thank you kennyd I did not know that! 14:46:05 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@31.163.223.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:46:37 georges_: i second kennyd's recommendation -- very useful book 14:47:21 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:47:32 -!- ahinki [~ahinki@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0/20120509070325]] 14:47:32 land of lisp helped me 14:47:43 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.146.181] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 14:47:46 alama: it sounds to me like the originating system made a representational error. can you replace the pipe with another symbol there? 14:48:01 georges_: what would you use lisp for? 14:48:13 Fade: yes, i would agree -- and yes, i can fiddle with the output so that this issue doesn't come up 14:48:25 pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-183-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:48:27 (but at the cost of forking a rather well-established automated theorem proving system :-( ) 14:49:00 mcstar I just want to learn lisp. I really like dynamic languages and Javascript gave me a taste of functional programming so I wanted to go further in that area 14:49:28 Fade: well, the originating system may be written in scheme. They don't have the same symbols there. 14:49:33 So I guess I just like writing cool little programs 14:49:39 ah, that didn't occur to me. 14:49:47 ive been learning haskell in the past couple months, and after that common lisp doesnt feel functional very much 14:50:02 but its dynamic side is unsurpassed 14:50:03 the word functional doesn't really mean much 14:50:14 Fade: readtables are exactly designed to paper over this kind of syntactic inconsistencies. 14:50:35 alama: you might want to look at named readtables. 14:50:40 georges_: and it is a very felxible language(as you can see from the other conversation) and you can make it fast if needed 14:51:04 alama: the ivy filet I see has "or" for disjunction, and the prover9 output looks nothing like sexps (and its input doesn't use pipes for disjunction either), so I'm not sure what format you're talking about. 14:51:15 I'm not so much worried about fast at this point :) just want to make sure I get the aha moment 14:51:33 pjb: in fact, this system is coming from acl2 (http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~moore/acl2/), but there's some hints of prolog syntax in it 14:51:56 pkhuong: right, ivy proper does not use "|" 14:52:01 prover9 does use "|" 14:52:07 the trouble is that i am mixing the two syntaxes 14:53:08 georges_: Welcome! :) 14:54:16 to be precise, i am writing (in common lisp) a translator from this hybrid ivy/prover9 syntax to tptp syntax, which is basically prolog (http://www.cs.miami.edu/~tptp/TPTP/QuickGuide/) 14:55:34 alama: well, the input I see for prover9 has v/^ for or/and; that would work well with CL's reader. 14:55:36 georges_: Clojure channel seems to have only around 30% more names than this one. #haskell has ~900. Now imagine the size of communities of mainstream languages. 14:56:30 hmm, i honestly didn't know aout v/^; my experience with prover9 syntax is that one uses & and | 14:57:07 naryl Oh I know. I hang out on #Ruby and #javascript 14:57:15 krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:29 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 I still think you guys have a good size though :) 14:58:26 We're more helpful OTOH :P 14:58:28 jk 15:00:32 -!- cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:04:46 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:05:28 holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:43 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:06:55 hiyosi [~hiyosi@102.124.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:06:58 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-shrqlnwimgyafufa] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:07:14 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:11:24 -!- cymew [~cymew@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:12:48 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@119-173-226-34.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:14:37 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@krrrcks.de] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:15:54 vasily_pupkin [~avatar@109.86.168.179] has joined #lisp 15:16:15 krrrcks [~krrrcks@46.182.19.96] has joined #lisp 15:16:17 did alexandria added prog1-let yet? 15:17:17 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 15:18:22 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:22:30 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:23:46 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:24:02 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:35 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-183-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:29:14 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:45 maxm-: how does it work? 15:31:16 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@90-12-20-64.static.cosmoweb.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:49 -!- krrrcks [~krrrcks@46.182.19.96] has left #lisp 15:32:54 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:33:56 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:03 ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:36 alama: (prog1-let (obj (make-obj-somehow)) ...long and complicated setup of obj ...) => returns obj disregarding whatever setup does 15:35:02 s/setup does/last form of setup returns/ 15:35:02 i see 15:35:20 -!- hitecnologys [~noname@94.137.18.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:35:53 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:36:47 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:37:32 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@90-12-20-64.static.cosmoweb.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:36 -!- mwyrobek [~mwyrobek@caz103.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:41:30 -!- vasily_pupkin [~avatar@109.86.168.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:41:47 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:48:21 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:50:18 maxm-: i think the mejority here was not convinced of its value. 15:50:34 maxm-: hexstream was sulking. that was about it. 15:52:26 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:53:32 man, how come its value is not immediately recognized as useful? whats your personal take H4ns 15:53:38 [SLB] [~slabua@host239-212-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:53:38 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host239-212-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 15:53:38 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:53:40 its like if ppl never wrote software before 15:54:00 Vinzent [~Vinzent@90.151.43.228] has joined #lisp 15:54:07 -!- Vinzent [~Vinzent@90.151.43.228] has left #lisp 15:55:37 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 15:55:50 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-4d02cd92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 15:57:57 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:06 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:59:22 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:02:14 -!- ciaranb [~user@w-110.cust-9805.ip.static.uno.uk.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-195-212.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:05:09 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-173-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:05:50 maxm-: i don't like it. prog1 is sometimes useful, but as it reverses the sequence of execution, i use it carefully. 16:05:51 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:58 H4ns: it what? 16:06:59 H4ns: it doesn't reverse the sequence of execution! 16:07:02 maxm-: in particular when there is a long initialization sequence, i'd find it annoying to remember that i'm actually in a prog1-let when reading the code. in general, i try to reduce my memory usage of the person reading the code. i don't invent names that i use only once, and i try to make the code readable in one direction. 16:07:03 that's the point of prog1! 16:07:10 flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@3-242-13-72.static.cosmoweb.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:12 Otherwise you could just use progn! 16:07:22 pjb: i'm talking about the proposed prog1-let 16:07:28 Ok. 16:07:38 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:07:47 ah, ok. It doesn't evaluate to the last executed form (: 16:07:49 maxm-: glancing through my code, the places I am following the prog1-let pattern my lets largely bind multiple variables -- does prog1-let account for that? 16:07:57 pkhuong: thank you. 16:08:44 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:08:55 H4ns: I was afraid of a more serious bug in the specification of prog[12]. 16:08:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:53 What, beyond that they are both defined to do the same thing? 16:11:12 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.73] has joined #lisp 16:12:28 agspathis [~user@37.32.175.118] has joined #lisp 16:12:35 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@184.99.7.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:23 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-64-151-208-2.bchsia.in2net.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:14:34 FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has joined #lisp 16:14:51 lobo_d_b [~lobo_d_b@unaffiliated/juan--d--b/x-561435] has joined #lisp 16:16:15 vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-255-030.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 16:16:31 sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:17:46 -!- kilon [~kilon@178.128.80.44.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:18:00 wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:18:29 -!- treyka [~treyka@77.109.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:18:31 H4ns: my problem is the opposite, I start writing it as (let ((obj ...)) ... (setup)..(more-setup)) and then forgetting to end it with obj).. Guess maybe should start writing obj) immediately after let, when I remember I need to return it 16:19:56 maxm-: Yes, that's the simple solution to your dilemma, if you know that you need to return the object then make it happen, and then back-fill with the actual initialization. 16:20:14 -!- ccomendant [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ccomendant] has left #lisp 16:22:24 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 16:22:45 jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has joined #lisp 16:23:43 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-244-33.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 16:27:36 nyef: that, somehow, (prog1 x body...) could be interpreted as (progn body ... (values x)) ("reverses the sequence of execution") 16:28:04 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-215.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:25 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has joined #lisp 16:29:20 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has joined #lisp 16:29:23 yes only it doesn't: (prog1 x body) = (let ((temp x)) body temp) 16:29:48 i was expressing it totally wrong, please accept my sincere apologies. 16:31:53 jdz [~jdz@host244-107-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:32:31 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:33:11 wait, prog1-let reverses the order of execution? 16:33:25 what? did aliens lend on earth?! 16:33:26 woops, didn't mean to send that, sorry 16:33:28 s/lend/land/ 16:34:46 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:35:04 -!- flavioribeiro [~flaviorib@3-242-13-72.static.cosmoweb.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:11 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.125.6] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:36:28 Aliens setting up financial institutions! =trembles with fear= 16:37:02 Jasko [~tjasko@108.60.121.114] has joined #lisp 16:38:01 -!- agspathis [~user@37.32.175.118] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:39:08 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:39:28 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:41:37 kilon [~kilon@178.128.80.44.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:43:58 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:44:02 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:31 sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:48:02 -!- ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:33 ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:06 kilon_alios [~kilon@178.128.91.67.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:51:38 -!- kilon [~kilon@178.128.80.44.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:41 Odin- [~sbkhh@214-106-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.50.152] has joined #lisp 17:00:37 -!- vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-255-030.dsl.sil.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:01:14 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-124-176-25-97.lns2.dea.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:01:15 -!- inkjetunit [~wrwrwr@unaffiliated/inkjetunit] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:08:06 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@201-251-62-201.static.speedy.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:09:27 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-hudd6-0-0-cust741.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:59 is there cleverer way to say (remove-if-not (rcurry #'typep 'whatever) list-of-objects) ? 17:11:09 to get only objecs implementing 'whatever 17:12:00 booyaa` [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:05 *maxm-* would rather get "method not found for GF" error instead of implementing empty placeholder method, thus above to filter list of objects that may or may not inherit a tagger class, that they are interested in something 17:13:02 vervic [~vervic@vie-188-118-255-030.dsl.sil.at] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 "objects implementing", that's a strange terminology 17:14:35 ... After all, how often do you run into an object implementing (cons (eql :foo))? (-: 17:15:12 i used today (cons (eql function) (cons * null)) 17:15:15 stassats`: well I use abstract empty classes as tags, to say object implements certain protocol. Like WHATEVER-OBSERVER. Then I use these as tags for classes that wants to know when WHATEVER events happen. So I have a sequence of objects, some of them inheriting one of these "tag" classes (not sure whats the right CS term for it?) 17:15:16 in sbcl 17:16:26 well anyway, since stassats responded with critique of terminology rather then a "here, look at me, I shortened it by 1 char", I guess rcurry is the most elegant method 17:16:34 Mmm. As a TYPEP trick it's kindof lame, but for TYPECASE or if you have something that expands to TYPEP it's a whole other story. 17:16:48 nyef: in typecase, yeah 17:17:58 it resulted in a much cleaner code than a cond with ((atom x) ...) ((and (proper-list-of-length-p x 2) (eql (car x) 'function)) ...) 17:19:00 Exactly. 17:19:13 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:20:59 there are many cases left in SBCL where not proper lists generate not optimal errors 17:21:14 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 17:21:27 like (defun foo (x a . y)) and (defun foo (x) (declare . x)) 17:22:02 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has joined #lisp 17:22:32 maxm-: remove :test-not. CL's sequences functions are wonderfully designed to avoid inefficient/wordy function composition. 17:22:52 pkhuong: if only typep had reversed order of arguments 17:22:53 mm, the arguments might be in the wrong order. 17:24:19 heh ok, if one can do this in one-liner, I would be surprised http://paste.lisp.org/display/129467 17:25:02 btw map because some of them lists, some of them vectors, depending on type of subwindow (some have several 10k of chart objects)... guess should convert everything to vector to be consisnt 17:25:44 not a one-liner, but (loop for object in (chart-objects-of x) when (typep object 'track-delete) do (delete-instance object)) 17:25:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:07 maxm-: I like stassats`'s single fused loop better as well. 17:26:13 nha [~prefect@g225164195.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:17 sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:26:21 and it conses less! 17:26:29 hmm does "in" work on vectors? 17:26:37 nope 17:26:59 maxm-: just map nil instead of loop. 17:27:10 thats what I did 17:27:33 stassats`: (defun foo (x a . y)) should be equivalent to (defun foo (x a &rest y)) no? 17:27:53 maxm-: map nil but fuse the loop. 17:27:59 naryl: that's no scheme 17:28:20 stassats`: works in SBCL :P 17:28:26 *in destructuring-bind 17:28:33 only that it doesn't 17:29:04 naryl: destructuring-bind doesn't implement lambda lists. 17:29:44 ok 17:29:50 "If you want Scheme, you know where to find it." ? 17:30:01 *maxm-* always gets in trouble when trying to be fancy and all "look at me, all functional, like the big boys"... 17:30:32 nyef: i'm not sure that's something to be desired 17:30:55 nyef: just a particularity of scheme lambda-lists, not a real advantage or disadvantage 17:31:51 huangjs [~huangjs@200.54.109.17] has joined #lisp 17:31:52 That too. 17:32:03 But sometimes the trivialities matter. 17:32:28 hm, there seems to be too many places where . fails 17:32:50 like (progn 1 . 1) 17:33:07 speaking of "I found old but useful thing",I started using &aux variables, to avoid extra LET, and it seems like quite a useful thing 17:33:09 fails as in fails to produces a usable error 17:33:33 Another &aux hero is born. 17:33:43 yay! 17:33:46 maxm-: That's actually considered to be bad style by some people. 17:33:51 maxm-: the best thing about &aux is BOA constructors, although I use &aux a lot anyway. 17:34:12 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:34:21 nyef: pshaw 17:34:26 maybe there should be some kind of pattern matching, because fixing all of them by hard-coding would get old pretty quickly 17:34:27 sykopomp: BOA? 17:34:27 whats the boa thing? 17:34:45 Hey, speaking of BOA constructors, can we have a BOA constructor for a condition-class via the make-condition interface? 17:34:59 &aux is bad because it polutes the function signature. 17:35:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.130.129.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:35:03 By Order of Arguments. 17:35:14 maxm-: (defstruct (foo (:constructor make-foo (a &aux (a (string a))))) a) 17:35:30 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-043-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:36:00 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:05 ok, it will get the a slot assigned somehow? 17:36:06 sykopomp: I'd rather write a separate constructor function. But it's ok for a Q&D thing. 17:36:12 (Even better, a BOA constructor as via MAKE-CONDITION, but with an &REST argument for one of the fields? 17:36:20 maxm-: by order of arguments :-) 17:36:22 (foo-a (make-foo 'a)) -> "A" 17:36:23 maxm-: initialised, even better. 17:36:41 the slot named a will be assigned the value of the &aux parameter a. 17:36:52 pjb: I do %make-foo and (defun make-foo ...) when it's something relatively fancy. 17:37:23 but I favor &aux when what I want to do is really short 17:38:21 Hrm. Damn. MAKE-CONDITION specifically requires an initialization argument list, which is a plist. 17:38:27 ok I hope to remember that when looking through code using one of these things 17:38:49 pjb: I also think &aux is nice for LAMBDA, because saving a single line makes sense in that context and (lambda (x) (let ((y (string x))) (frob y))) is just a -bit- too much :) 17:38:54 bloody dotted lists, they break everything 17:38:58 *stassats`* gives up 17:39:23 stassats`: Better to give up than to let them drive you dotty. 17:40:27 http://www.wonderlandblog.com/photos/uncategorized/700bgblack.jpg pic related to stassats` 17:40:38 i'll do them one by one, one dot at a time 17:41:08 sykopomp: what does DoTS mean? 17:41:59 stassats`: in this context, it's referring to an audio clip of someone leading a World of Warcraft raid, and refers to "Damage over Time" spells/abilities. 17:42:17 I'd like to pull out the  section out of a HTML page that I download using Drakma. Is there a CL library, where I can just specify a document "path" to get the contents of a particular HTML head field? 17:42:23 <stassats`> that's way over my head 17:42:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:42:52 <sykopomp> http://youtu.be/HtvIYRrgZ04 specifically. 17:43:16 <pkhuong> antoszka: plexippus (an xpath implementation for stp, one of cxml's internal representations). 17:43:24 <antoszka> pkhuong: thx 17:43:25 antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 17:43:26 <stassats`> antoszka: clozure-html with whatever cxml munching you prefer 17:43:32 <stassats`> closure-html 17:43:36 <antoszka> ok 17:44:14 <pkhuong> antoszka: you'll probably have to play with namespaces a bit if you'll be working with wild HTML. 17:44:36 <antoszka> pkhuong: yeah, it's supposed to work with any random HTML document fed to it. 17:44:49 <antoszka> (and gracefully ignore malformed ones) 17:46:02 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:27 <stassats`> gosh, i've found a memory fault causes by dots 17:46:39 <stassats`> (typep 1 '(cons . 2)) => Unhandled memory fault at #x5. 17:47:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:47:20 <pkhuong> closure-html tries to deal with malformed documents, but if you want to deal with really awful servers, you might have to resort to beautiful soup or phantomjs (a headless webkit with javascript scripting) 17:47:59 <stassats`> perhaps i should write a random tester generating code with dots 17:48:27 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:11 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-135.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:49:54 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:24 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:51:25 snorble_ [~snorble@c193-14-18-68.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:52:10 <fe[nl]ix> using webkit+v8 to parse then pretty-print the document seems the safest choice 17:54:03 mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has joined #lisp 17:56:38 <pkhuong> fe[nl]ix: phantomjs (: 17:57:10 -!- sellout is now known as theBatman 17:57:19 -!- theBatman is now known as sellout 17:57:23 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:57:55 <nyef> If two processes can try to manipulate a pidfile, then the correct thing to do is add a separate lock file for it, isn't it? 18:01:41 <fe[nl]ix> yes 18:01:44 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 <fe[nl]ix> there's liblockfile which does the job, even managing to work over NFS 18:04:43 alexshendi [~alexshend@ip-2-203-150-255.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@ip-2-203-150-255.web.vodafone.de] has left #lisp 18:06:38 <Fade> I've had better luck with closure + cxml than I ever had with beautiful soup, fwiw. 18:10:18 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:45 pnq [~nick@ACA29A11.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:14 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@200.54.109.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:12:56 <Fade> phantomjs looks awesome. 18:13:41 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 sacho_ [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:17:56 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:18:29 wishbone_ [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 -!- r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:54 r126f [~ruwin126@120.142.67.254] has joined #lisp 18:19:53 -!- ejohnson [~elliott@vr.elliottjohnson.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:20:01 ejohnson [~elliott@vr.elliottjohnson.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:28 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:20:28 -!- mtd_ [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21:09 mtd_ [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:31 -!- bieber [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:45 bieber [~quassel@97.97.75.169] has joined #lisp 18:22:45 fjl [~fjl@2001:6f8:12d9:13:8445:559c:f4cd:36a5] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 <j_king> Fade: we're using it to set up some integration testing infrastructure for our mobile clients. it's pretty good from what I hear 18:23:48 -!- fjl [~fjl@2001:6f8:12d9:13:8445:559c:f4cd:36a5] has left #lisp 18:25:35 <Fade> *nod* 18:29:49 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:33:05 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:15 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:35:23 huangjs [~huangjs@200.54.109.17] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 -!- antonv [5d7d3142@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.66] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:37:22 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[~HFSPLUS@c-76-24-90-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:29 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-67-232-187-238.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 19:32:40 -!- HFSPLUS [~HFSPLUS@c-76-24-90-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 19:35:15 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:44 sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:38:00 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:34 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has left #lisp 19:43:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:43:27 <Hexstream> H4ns: I... don't remember sulking about prog1-let, honestly. What? 19:43:53 <H4ns> Hexstream: i'm sorry if i got that wrong. 19:43:59 <H4ns> Hexstream: no offense intended, either :) 19:44:12 <Hexstream> Maybe you're thinking of madnificent or something. 19:45:00 TimKack [~tkack@46.194.190.138] has joined #lisp 19:45:01 <Hexstream> Anyway, my upcoming version would be (anaphoric it (prog1 (my form) (frob it) (modify it))) ;P 19:46:19 <H4ns> ieh! :) 19:47:02 rein [~KoYoTa@95-42-183-74.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:47:28 <H4ns> is there a way in postmodern to interpret nil as null? i.e. i want to use some variable value in a where clause and have nil be interpreted as SQL NULL. 19:47:56 -!- msimoni [~m@188-22-213-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:48:34 <Hexstream> And btw you said "in particular when there is a long initialization sequence, i'd find it annoying to remember that i'm actually in a prog1-let when reading the code. in general, i try to reduce my memory usage of the person reading the code."... 19:49:05 <Hexstream> IMHO the least cognitively expensive thing to do is explicitly declare in advance that you're returning that object, which is what prog1 does. 19:49:42 <Hexstream> Then you can just know "the return values in the PROGN part of the PROG1 don't matter, unless there's an explicit return". 19:51:27 <nyef> H4ns: I just use (or <variable> :NULL) on the one side, and have a function NULL->NIL on the other. 19:51:37 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has joined #lisp 19:51:37 <H4ns> i don't agree - when looking for a return value, i look at the end of a form. prog1 requires me to look at the beginning. so, prog1 introduces something unusual and makes it harder to read code in general. it is sometimes useful and i use it in those cases, but rarely. 19:51:37 <Hexstream> Else what I usually end up doing while reading the code is: "Oh, I see this LET and that he's doing some modifications to the value here, I expect that this object will get returned at the end..." so I scroll to the end to verify my assumption and: "Yeah, so that's really what happens. Now let's read the big body"... 19:52:27 <H4ns> nyef: thing is, (:is-null foo) is not the same as (:= foo :null) 19:52:40 <nyef> Eesh. Scroll? My general rule is to try to keep functions small enough that they all fit on one screen... 19:52:45 <Fare> is that some JS thing? 19:53:02 <nyef> H4ns: ... so? 19:53:50 <Hexstream> Well, not necessarily scroll, but search for the end form. With big bodies it's not necessarily easy to read up the exact alignment. Maybe I just use too big code blocks. ;P 19:54:00 <H4ns> nyef: i don't understand what you suggest then 19:54:35 -!- rein [~KoYoTa@95-42-183-74.btc-net.bg] has left #lisp 19:54:52 <nyef> When I have some lisp variable that can be NIL, but need to pass it to postmodern and have the NIL wind up as :NULL, I use OR /on the lisp side/. 19:55:43 <Hexstream> Sometimes there isn't an obvious function to extract out and I don't like to extract meaningless one-shot functions just to deal with "big code" issues (such as nested indentation levels). 19:55:53 <nyef> It's to the point of being idiomatic for me now. 19:55:58 <H4ns> nyef: that i understand. but :where (:= 'foo (or foo :null)) does not work, or does it? 19:56:25 <nyef> Why wouldn't it? S-SQL treats lists starting with non-keywords as lisp forms for evaluation. 19:57:05 <H4ns> nyef: right. but the sql = operator does not work with nulls 19:57:31 <stassats`> (:in foo (:set 'foo :null))? 19:57:59 <nyef> Hrm. 19:58:27 <nyef> So, if FOO is NIL, you want to use (:is-null 'foo), otherwise use the := ? 19:58:30 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@178.46.11.41] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:58:41 <Fare> Xach speaking at Boston Lisp Meeting tomorrow http://fare.livejournal.com/166595.html 19:58:42 <H4ns> nyef: i don't want that, that is what i need to do, apparently 19:58:46 <nyef> At that point I'd break out :RAW and S-SQL:SQL-COMPILE. 19:58:52 <Fare> Looking for more speakers for next few months. 20:00:43 <H4ns> gross. 20:00:46 <Fare> (:or (:= x y) (:and (:is-null x) (:is-null y)) ? 20:01:02 <pkhuong> Fare: or patch the compiler... 20:02:28 <H4ns> i'm going for (:= (or col-var other-col-var) (:coalesce 'col-var 'other-col-var)) 20:02:43 <H4ns> (with other-col(-var) always non-null) 20:03:10 <nyef> H4ns: Right now I've got stuff like (:order-by ... (:raw (format nil "false~{, ~A~}" (mapcar #'s-sql:sql-compile order-by)))) in my code base. And APPLY of POSTMODER:PREPARE of some form all over the place. 20:03:21 <nyef> s/POSTMODER/POSTMODERN/ 20:03:52 *Fare* is happy to be moving away from sql 20:03:57 <Fare> (I hope) 20:04:06 <H4ns> Fare: where do you move? 20:05:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:08 <Fare> hopefully to googly nosql land. 20:05:41 <H4ns> Fare: congratulations, i envy you. even with postmodern, sql stays kind of sucky. 20:06:52 <stassats`> (:case ((:is-null x) (:is-null y)) (t (:= x y))) 20:06:56 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:07:28 <nyef> Yeah, I find myself using :RAW and SQL-COMPILE an awful lot with postmodern. 20:09:17 <Fare> can you define inline functions/macros that get expanded adequately? 20:10:08 <Fare> H4ns: not using bknr for persistence anymore? 20:10:27 <nyef> In many cases, I'm marshaling SQL fragments across function boundaries. 20:10:30 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:36 <H4ns> Fare: not for my employer, no. 20:11:32 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:11:41 <stassats> SELECT 1 is distinct from NULL; appears to work, but s-sql doesn't support it 20:11:57 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 20:12:11 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-21-241.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:12:14 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-70-102.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:12:25 <nyef> How about "WITH <name> AS <query> <query>"? 20:12:33 <H4ns> i like the coalesce 20:12:53 <didi> If I want to create a test suite for a package, should I create the tests from inside the package or create a foo-test package and test its internals using ::? 20:13:31 <stassats> test its externals 20:13:45 <nyef> Hmm... Test suites. 20:14:56 <nyef> I've been thinking that testing the externals is mostly the right way to do it, and that there should definitely be a separate package for the tests, but that it's one of the few (very few) cases where using internal symbols might be justifiable. 20:15:10 <H4ns> didi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/126415 20:15:20 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:15:27 <didi> H4ns: Thank you. 20:19:18 <nyef> I'm not sure that I like that. It obscures the difference between the public interface for the package (that is accessible to other packages) and the private internals (which may well be required for testing, but shouldn't be referenced from other packages under normal circumstances). 20:19:44 -!- jeff [~jeff@unaffiliated/jeff] has left #lisp 20:20:23 <didi> nyef: Well, I'm unable to judge the macro, but a test package is not a normal package. 20:20:28 <H4ns> nyef: it does not obscure, but it also does not expose the interface. 20:20:52 <stassats> H4ns: (loop for symbol being the present-symbols of PACKAGE collect symbol) 20:21:27 <H4ns> nyef: if you consider tests as documentation, your dislike makes sense. if you just want to be able to write tests quickly, not having to qualify symbols makes a lot of sense. 20:21:58 <H4ns> stassats: nice. someone should annotate the paste. 20:22:35 <stassats> although it doesn't play nice with IMPORTed symbols 20:24:02 <nyef> Mmm, yes. All code is documentation. 20:24:04 DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-231.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:21 <nyef> I'm also coming from the one-package-per-file perspective as well. 20:24:27 <H4ns> nyef: do you qualify exported symbols in the implementation package? 20:25:22 <nyef> No, there's a full list at the top of each file, and the package names get stupidly long. 20:25:25 |SLB| [~slabua@host34-162-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:25:37 <ezakimak> how do I tell quicklisp to satisfy a dependency against a package it manages via a local (different) vesrion of that package? 20:25:51 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:25:56 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:25:58 <stassats> put it into local-projects/ 20:26:12 <pkhuong> ezakimak: pretty sure local-projects takes precedence. Or any other place that's earlier in asdf's search paths. 20:26:14 <pjb> local packages just shadow remotes ones. 20:26:29 <ezakimak> can I switch between them? or do i have to remove it out of local-projects to do that? 20:26:52 <nyef> Oh, and any file more than about 512 lines is already too long, and over 1024 lines is a definite candidate for some serious refactoring. 20:27:33 <didi> nyef: That's an interesting idea. 20:27:35 <stassats> nyef: with M-. it's easy to disregard the file size 20:27:45 -!- jfleming [~jfleming@46.243.25.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:27:46 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:27:52 -!- TDJACR is now known as TDJACRBot 20:28:00 <didi> nyef: elisp code is definitely the opposite of that. 20:28:19 <didi> elisp libraries, I should say. 20:28:25 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:56 sacho [~sacho@79-100-60-238.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:29:13 <stassats> i wouldn't consider splitting it as long as it stays on the same theme 20:29:13 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@213.175.106.134] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 20:29:17 -!- TDJACRBot is now known as TDJACR 20:31:07 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.227.117] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:32:13 <nyef> I find that files over about 512 lines tend to be grab bags of stuff on a rough theme, but that they can be broken up into more refined groups. 20:33:06 <pkhuong> same... Files get broken up as I understand the problem better, often enough with one package per file or two. 20:34:18 <nyef> Consider a file full of instruction definitions for a CPU simulator: The instructions can be broken up into groups based on behavior, hardware units involved, and so on. 20:35:13 <stassats> i usually just logically split the file, one thing at the top, another in between, and something in the bottom 20:35:30 <stassats> usually utils and macros at the top, the meat in between, and high level API at the bottom 20:35:36 -!- Kron_ [~Kron@2.49.64.170] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 20:38:33 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:49 <ivan-kanis> I put everything in one big file ;) 20:39:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:27 <nyef> I've looked over some of my older code this past couple of days, and I've always had a preference for separate files for separate things, probably a holdover from my C days, but the one-package-per-file thing is more recent. 20:40:40 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:41:23 <didi> nyef: Don't you end up flooding your package namespace? 20:41:43 <pkhuong> didi: how is that possible? 20:41:49 <didi> pkhuong: Isn't it? 20:42:03 <nyef> "Flooding" in what sense? 20:42:05 *stassats* senses some confusion in the air 20:42:23 <nyef> There's no explicit upper bound on the number of packages allowed. 20:42:26 <didi> Once you (defpackage #:foo ...), there will be only one #:foo. 20:42:34 <pkhuong> array-total-size-limit is 4611686018427387901 here. That's very many distinct strings. 20:42:50 <nyef> ... I don't use such short package names. 20:42:58 <didi> I don't mean you hit an upper bound. 20:43:01 <didi> nyef: oic 20:44:35 <nyef> The current package name scheme I use is on the order of project-name/filepath, so I'd plausibly have something like :nes-emulator/cpu/instructions as a package name for a file in the nes-emulator project named cpu/instructions.lisp. 20:45:46 <didi> nyef: So you might also use (defpackage #:foo (:use #:bar)) to avoid a lot of typing, yes? 20:46:07 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:46:26 <pkhuong> didi: not necessarily. Names can be chosen so they make sense with the package qualifier prefix. 20:46:53 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:47:15 <didi> pkhuong: Hum. Like a data structure called `stack', so you can say (stack:pop ...)? 20:47:29 <nyef> Each file starts with a defpackage form, pulling in symbols from other packages either wholesale or on an individual basis to avoid having to use package prefixes, yes. 20:47:49 pnq [~nick@ACA2DFDD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:56 <nyef> There's also a couple cases of (:import-from :some-package) with no symbols imported, simply to express a dependency on having the package loaded. 20:47:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:48:33 <didi> nyef: Nice. 20:49:43 francogrex [~user@109.130.19.93] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 <nyef> Also means that the set of files to load for a project can be determined by tracing package definitions from a set of roots, there can be no circular package dependencies, and so on. 20:51:19 mensch [~mensch@c-67-189-240-148.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:54 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:54:27 fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:56:52 <nyef> Okay, I'm gone for the evening. 20:58:32 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.217.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:58:37 -!- |SLB| [~slabua@host34-162-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 21:01:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:02:02 -!- shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:03 <francogrex> I saw a very simple but quite efficient chat program made of one file of php mixed with javascript. do you think lisp be used also as such instead of php? fyi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129469 21:07:31 <stassats> how dare you posting php code into #lisp 21:08:07 [SLB] [~slabua@host34-162-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:08:25 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host34-162-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 21:08:25 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:10:12 -!- EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:13 <francogrex> how else would we see if the two are as strong? 21:10:42 <stassats> not sure if trolling or serious 21:11:20 <francogrex> serious in my original question, how can you turn that program into lisp+js 21:11:47 <stassats> try opening C-x chat.lisp and writing code 21:11:52 <stassats> C-x C-f 21:12:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:12:29 <francogrex> I will but would you venture such a thing? 21:14:32 <oconnore> francogrex: lisp isn't as strong as PHP. PHP has far more magic, like automatically deciding whether things are strings or integers or floats or booleans. 21:16:26 <francogrex> oconnore: that I don't care really. It's just that chat program if I can use lisp + js that's all 21:16:50 <oconnore> francogrex: but you could write a small chat program in lisp/js. Usually people don't do embedded templating with lisp code, so you would either dynamically generate the html with a library like cl-who, or use a separate template file with something like html-template 21:17:09 EyesIsMine [~Eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has joined #lisp 21:17:09 Bike [~Glossina@63-230-161-149.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:30 <francogrex> ok 21:18:32 <francogrex> oconnore: I will pick on your word "usually"; does it mean it's doable but people prefer the other option? 21:18:43 maxigas [~user@catv-80-99-182-227.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:19:43 <francogrex> /me's question should have instead been: how easy is it to embed lisp with js (no mention of php or other stuff) 21:20:10 <daimrod> francogrex: it depends, you can use parenscript 21:20:48 <daimrod> e.g. something like (who:with-html (:some-stuff (:a :on-click (ps:ps (alert "hello))))) 21:21:33 <francogrex> hmm, something to think about 21:21:35 <daimrod> but I like the way I can separate things with a framework like Mootools. 21:21:40 <oconnore> francogrex: 'prefer' is putting it lightly. In my opinion (and I think others here would agree), you don't want to mix languages in the same file. Put your js in a .js and put your lisp in a .lisp. Sanity is nice, and files are cheap. 21:22:01 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:37 <francogrex> oconnore: yeah, I don't know why that file I referred to, they could have also done things separate files.. 21:22:58 <daimrod> i agree for JavaScript, but I prefer cl-who to html-template or something similar. 21:23:48 <oconnore> daimrod: me too, but cl-who is lisp syntax, not html syntax. 21:23:49 -!- kilon [~kilon@178.128.91.67.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:36 <daimrod> yup, that's why I prefer it. 21:25:02 <daimrod> I thought it would be the same for JavaScript but with a good framework it isn't that bad. 21:25:36 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 21:25:55 dawe [~lln73@41.233.166.169] has joined #lisp 21:26:12 <oconnore> daimrod: yeah, HTML in lisp is nice because HTML and sexp's are both specifying tree structures 21:27:54 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:43 <daimrod> oconnore: yes, and I don't really like the idea of debugging generated JavaScript. 21:29:07 <oconnore> daimrod: it would work nicely if parenscript supported source maps, but I don't believe it does yet. 21:29:42 <oconnore> that way you could auto convert a javascript runtime error back into your parenscript code. 21:30:13 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:08 <dawe> whats the best version of lisp? 21:31:12 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has joined #lisp 21:31:12 <dawe> :) 21:31:18 <pjb> Common Lisp. 21:31:37 <sykopomp> dawe: multiple implementations according to your needs. 21:31:37 <pjb> Version 2½. 21:31:42 <oconnore> dawe: 1.5 21:31:53 <dawe> im beginner 21:31:57 *sykopomp* uses 3 different CL implementations regularly. :) 21:31:57 <daimrod> oconnore: It would still be hard to beat Firebug at debugging. 21:32:26 <sykopomp> dawe: grab CCL or SBCL, install emacs, get quicklisp, install slime through quicklisp. 5 minutes. Happy hacking. 21:32:35 <daimrod> dawe: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ 21:32:36 gniourf_gniourf [~Gniourf@2a01:e35:2433:3b90:75f0:574a:3dad:df69] has joined #lisp 21:32:55 <dawe> thanks pjb , oconnore 21:33:50 <dawe> :) , what book u advise to a beginner in common lisp ? 21:34:06 <daimrod> Practical Common Lisp 21:34:11 <didi> Is the `test-op' operating of ASDF commonly used? 21:34:14 <pjb> or Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 21:34:16 cyb3r3li0g [~eguzman@c-69-254-128-192.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:22 <didi> s/operating/operation 21:34:41 -!- wishbone_ [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:45 <sykopomp> dawe: Gentle Intro is very nice if you don't already have several months/years of experience with programming. 21:34:54 <sykopomp> (I'd say you should read it first anyway, and then move to PCL) 21:34:55 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:56 <dawe> these 2 books ? 21:35:24 <dawe> yes 21:35:44 <pjb> dawe: go to http://cliki.net/Getting+Started for more! 21:35:49 <dawe> thnks brothers :) , i will search for them 21:36:19 <dawe> thnx pjb 21:36:42 <antoszka> dawe: what OS are you running? 21:36:59 <pjb> antoszka: Getting+started gives the three urls. 21:37:00 <dawe> win 7 and ubuntu 21:37:07 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2DFDD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:33 <antoszka> pjb: Except they are not *that* suitable for a beginner IMO. 21:37:56 <pjb> antoszka: then write three other more suitable and add them to Getting+Started. 21:38:15 <antoszka> pjb: I mean  why suggest downloading and compiling SBCL by yourself, when it's packaged and mostly up to date in popular distros? 21:38:25 <antoszka> pjb: I would gladly just amend the existing page. 21:38:28 <pjb> antoszka: yes, that's a bore. 21:38:31 <didi> dawe: For Ubuntu, install SBCL from the repos. 21:38:52 <pjb> didi: clisp and ccl works on both systems. 21:38:57 <didi> pjb: Nice. 21:38:57 <pjb> sbcl will work on windows. 21:39:43 <didi> pjb: Does CLISP plan to release a stable version with threads? 21:39:51 -!- maxigas [~user@catv-80-99-182-227.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 21:39:57 <dawe> thnks didi 21:40:07 <pjb> didi: sure. 21:40:30 <didi> pjb: Great. I would like to try it with stumpwm, but without threads, I'm unable to use swank. 21:40:31 <pjb> I don't see a lot of MT related bug reports 21:40:41 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:44:18 <stassats> does that mean nobody uses it? 21:45:25 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:45:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:28 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has joined #lisp 21:46:40 <didi> Hum, `ql:quickload' seems to only load one system defined inside a .asd. I have a foo.lisp file with a #:foo and a #:bar system, but only #:foo is being load with (ql:quickload "foo"). Which makes a lot of sense, actually. 21:47:07 <dawe> i have a very little experience with python , this will help me get common lisp easily? 21:47:17 <didi> dawe: Not really. 21:47:51 <didi> dawe: People say they are alike, but I don't see it very much. 21:47:51 <dawe> :( 21:48:06 <dawe> oh , ok 21:48:07 <didi> dawe: Nah, CL is awesome. You'll see. 21:48:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:42 <dawe> yes , thanks didi for encourage :) 21:48:48 <didi> Go dawe! 21:48:51 <dawe> sorry brb 21:49:02 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.19.93] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:49:09 <dawe> yea , 21:49:16 <dawe> bye didi 21:49:32 <didi> dawe: Happy hacking. 21:49:35 <pjb> didi: split the asd file so there's only ine system per asd file! 21:50:00 <dawe> thnks :D 21:50:04 -!- dawe [~lln73@41.233.166.169] has left #lisp 21:51:29 <didi> pjb: asdf's manual is messing with my head! 21:52:00 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:09 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:59 francisl [~flavoie@bas1-montreal48-1176432531.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:58:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:32 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:40 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:05:18 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@200.54.109.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:06:50 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:24 kmcorbett [~kmcorbett@dhcp-140-247-179-53.fas.harvard.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:45 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:12:08 scombinator [~user@203.171.40.170] has joined #lisp 22:14:13 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has joined #lisp 22:17:58 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:18:52 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-057-247.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:43 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:23:52 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has joined #lisp 22:26:44 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:28:08 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:25 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:25 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:30:03 -!- jdz [~jdz@host244-107-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:33 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:50 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:41 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:39:51 EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:50 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:46:16 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46:45 <didi> Hum. Messing with packages, I noticed that if a function from #:foo package returns something like (list 'foo-symbol) and if the REPL is in CL-USER, for example, it prints (foo::foo-symbol). 22:46:52 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:47:07 <didi> I didn't expect that. 22:47:08 <sshirokov> Beans 'foo-symbols is not external to the :foo package 22:47:15 <sshirokov> ..beans -> Because or Means 22:47:24 <sshirokov> Depending on which pleases you more 22:47:28 <didi> :^) 22:47:50 <sshirokov> If you don't want to deal with it, return :keywords 22:47:56 <didi> Aha! 22:48:00 <didi> Great idea. 22:48:00 <sshirokov> If you do, export the symbols you intend to return 22:48:25 <didi> The symbols are really doing the role of keywords. 22:48:58 <sshirokov> I prefer keywords on the off-chance that consumers of your code don't (:use ..) the containing package entirely, just (:import-from ..) the relevant functions, and then code fails because of something like (eql (foo:bar) 'baz) 22:50:01 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:50:16 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:50:59 <Borbus> Is there a way to show what a reader macro expands to with SLIME? 22:51:01 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.215] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:52:05 <Borbus> Not necessarily with SLIME.. but I do use that anyway 22:52:30 <Borbus> It seems that print actually reverses some macros, like (quote thing) goes back to 'thing 22:52:36 <stassats> Borbus: do read-from-string on it 22:53:32 <Borbus> The problem is still print applying the macro in reverse 22:53:34 <pjb> Borbus: depends. A lot of reader macros do something at read-time. You can only see the result, if you don't have the source of the reader macro. 22:53:53 <pjb> Eg. '#P"/tmp/a.lisp" => #P"/tmp/a.lisp" 22:54:31 <pjb> That's because what #P returns IS a pathname. 22:54:50 <stassats> so, that's what it expands to 22:55:05 <pjb> No standard reader macro return a form, they all return an object. 22:55:19 <pjb> the term "expands" for reader macros is inccorect. 22:55:25 <stassats> pjb: ' does return a form! 22:56:18 <Borbus> So #'f doesn't really go to (function f)? I suppose it's one less step for eval 22:56:45 <stassats> it does go 22:56:48 <stassats> (car '#'f) => FUNCTION 22:56:48 <pjb> In the case of Objective-CL #\[ reader macro, it returns a form: '[array performSelector:(@selector "drawRect:") withObject:rect]  (OBJC:SEND ARRAY :PERFORM-SELECTOR (@SELECTOR "drawRect:") :WITH-OBJECT RECT) 22:57:03 <didi> Yeah, keywords ftw! 22:57:04 <Borbus> What I was actually wondering was what #: "expands to" 22:57:12 <pjb> stassats: right ' and #' return forms. 22:57:20 <pjb> so ''x --> 'x 22:57:32 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:57:33 <pjb> and '#'x --> (function x) sometimes also printed as #'x 22:57:55 <pjb> Borbus: #: doesn't expand to anything. 22:58:04 <pjb> Borbus: this is totally wrong to use this term with reader macros! 22:58:22 <pjb> The #: dispatching reader macro returns an uninterned symbol. 22:58:46 <Borbus> That's why I used the scare quotes! I did write a reader macro once for fun but I've forgotten about them 22:58:46 <pjb> (defun sharp-colon-reader-macro (stream ch) (declare (ignore ch)) (make-symbol (parse-token stream))) 22:59:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.112.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:54 <pjb> there's an arg too: (defun sharp-colon-reader-macro (stream arg ch) (declare (ignore arg ch)) (make-symbol (parse-token stream))) 23:00:10 <pjb> but it's not used for #: :-) 23:00:19 <Borbus> But #:t is "short for" (make-symbol "t") I suppose? 23:00:32 <pjb> Yes. modulo the readtable-case. 23:02:24 <Borbus> (defun sharp-colon-reader-macro (stream ch) (declare (ignore ch)) '(make-symbol (parse-token stream))) <-- but that would still work? 23:03:49 -!- jacius [~jacius@c-24-13-89-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:39 <stassats> no 23:04:44 -!- ngz [~user@103.69.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:04:45 <Borbus> (defun sharp-colon-reader-macro (stream ch) (declare (ignore ch)) `(make-symbol ,(parse-token stream))) <-- or probably that.. and now I think I see why the eval is done there 23:04:50 <stassats> it doesn't conform to the definition of #: 23:04:54 <pjb> Borbus: it would work when #: is used in an evaluation position, but not in a data position. 23:05:10 <pjb> (list #:x) --> #:x but '#:x --> (make-symbol "X") 23:05:46 <pjb> (list #:x) --> (#:x) but '#:x --> (make-symbol "X") 23:06:19 <Borbus> Oh yeah.. of course 23:06:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@c90636ec.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:07:01 <pjb> That's why '(#'f) doesn't work, #' returns a form, not a function. 23:07:23 <stassats> pjb: it wouldn't work otherwise too 23:07:33 -!- Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:42 <pjb> Well, it couldn't return local functions otherwise. 23:10:35 -!- TimKack [~tkack@46.194.190.138] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 23:10:47 <Borbus> I ordered the book Let Over Lambda which I think will be fun 23:12:17 <Borbus> Are there any good reference books? 23:12:44 fukushima [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:12:44 <stassats> CLHS 23:13:42 <Borbus> Yeah... but CLHS doesn't show you how to use things, just what they do 23:14:11 -!- fukushim_ [~fukushima@z128.124-44-151.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:14:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:14:54 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:07 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-70-102.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 23:15:13 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:34 <Borbus> I guess I mean more of a companion book rather than a straight reference 23:17:51 <stassats> have you read PAIP already? 23:18:04 <Borbus> CLHS might be useful in book form though 23:18:31 <stassats> to assault people? 23:18:38 <Borbus> Nope.. I read practical common lisp 23:18:50 *sshirokov* keeps CLTL2 in print 23:19:18 <stassats> sshirokov: you man you don't let it go out of print? 23:19:23 <stassats> s/man/mean/ 23:19:32 <sshirokov> Har 23:19:49 <sshirokov> No, just bragging about a mass of dead trees I own 23:21:37 <Borbus> Is PAIP worth getting for a slightly better than beginner? 23:21:43 <stassats> yes 23:23:27 <Borbus> So expensive.. and not even hardback.. I also want to get Lisp in Small Pieces but it's really expensive as well 23:25:57 <Borbus> Then again I did sell my C++ books :P 23:26:15 <didi> lisp-unit seems nice. 23:26:32 <Borbus> K&R is all I need for non-Lisp language books I think 23:26:40 <pjb> LiSP is well worth it. 23:27:18 <sshirokov> didi: I like NST: https://svn.sift.info:3333/trac/nst/wiki 23:27:44 <sshirokov> test groups, fixtures, tests, quickcheck-like-thing, and it can generate junit XML output for CI 23:27:51 peterhil` [~peterhil@xdsl-77-86-196-131.nebulazone.fi] has joined #lisp 23:27:52 <didi> sshirokov: I'll take a look at it. Thank you. 23:28:08 <sshirokov> I think my friend did a presentation on it, let me see if I can find the slides. 23:28:28 <didi> Nice. 23:28:28 <Borbus> Hmm.. I've only spent £36 on books so far this year.. in that case I think both are easily justifiable 23:28:38 <sshirokov> didi: https://speakerdeck.com/u/sbryant/p/nst 23:31:04 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:47 <didi> sshirokov: Yay, quicklisp has it. 23:31:55 <sshirokov> sure does 23:32:15 <sshirokov> For the docs, I recommend the PDF manual on the trac wiki 23:32:29 <sshirokov> Top->Bottom once then as a reference 23:35:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:37:30 DataLinkDroid [~David@1.157.250.12] has joined #lisp 23:43:23 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 23:48:49 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-117-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:50:49 -!- Fare [~Fare@216.239.55.82] has left #lisp 23:56:17 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:37 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 23:59:20 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp